Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. I didn't want to
Speaker 2: feel like a murderer. It's not like, you know, it's
Speaker 2: not like, oh, like I'm this warrior, Like how come
Speaker 2: you didn't do it to me?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: But I wondered, because why not me? Why not? And
Speaker 2: I wanted to know because my personality is just so
Speaker 2: different than the girls. And he looked at me, and
Speaker 2: I mean it took foreverham to him to look up.
Speaker 2: It wasn't immediate. He looked at me and with like
Speaker 2: a really creepy smile, he said, I knew better.
Speaker 1: Hello, I'm kateline Brook. Today's guest has lived through something
Speaker 1: most of us have only ever watched from a distance.
Speaker 1: You might know the name Daga, the American family made
Speaker 1: famous by the tl SEE reality series Nineteen Kids and Counting.
Speaker 1: For years, they were held up the picture of wholesome,
Speaker 1: god fearing family life, modest dresses, perfect manners, endless babies,
Speaker 1: and a home ruled by faith. But behind that image
Speaker 1: lay secrets, silence, and a system of control that dictated
Speaker 1: everything from how women spoke to what they wore. Amy
Speaker 1: dug A King grew up on the edges of that world,
Speaker 1: the only child in a sprawling family where obedience was
Speaker 1: prized above honesty. She appeared on the show as cousin
Speaker 1: Amy Crazy Cousin Amy in fact, loved by fans for
Speaker 1: her spark and humor, but privately she was beginning to
Speaker 1: see cracks in the facade, and when abuse, scandals, and
Speaker 1: hypocrisy within the family came to light, Amy made the
Speaker 1: painful choice to speak out and to build a life
Speaker 1: defied and by truth rather than fear. This is a
Speaker 1: conversation about what happens when you break away from a
Speaker 1: system that's been built on silence and find your own faith,
Speaker 1: build your own family, and find your own voice. On
Speaker 1: the other side, this is Amy Duggar King. I just
Speaker 1: finished your book off this morning.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much. Okay, Kate, what did you
Speaker 2: think of it?
Speaker 1: Well, there's so much more to it than I was expecting,
Speaker 1: and there's so much more to your story. Yes, of course,
Speaker 1: like a lot of people, I knew you sort of vaguely,
Speaker 1: you know, through your connection with the nineteen in counting
Speaker 1: very good good genes in the Dugger family. By the way,
Speaker 1: how beautiful is everybody?
Speaker 2: Yes, everyone is very beautiful. Everyone is that we all
Speaker 2: have the same nose. And yeah, they're all very very
Speaker 2: handsome and beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 1: People and beautiful eyes.
Speaker 2: Beautiful eyes.
Speaker 1: You got the green eyes?
Speaker 2: Oh I do? I have like chameleon eyes. They change
Speaker 2: with whatever color I'm wearing.
Speaker 1: Ah, but that is the only chameleon like aspect of you,
Speaker 1: Amy Duga King. It's very true because the rest of
Speaker 1: you is essentially very sure and uncompromising in certain truths
Speaker 1: and aspects of yourself.
Speaker 2: Would you agree, Yes, I one hundred percent agree with that.
Speaker 2: I you know, I wanted to be as real and
Speaker 2: as authentic as I possibly could in this book and
Speaker 2: just open up and share my heart. And what you
Speaker 2: see is what to get, you know. I mean my
Speaker 2: cat might pop up, I oh, my little boy. I
Speaker 2: mean it's real life. So yeah, I'm just I am
Speaker 2: so grateful to be here. I have seen Mama Mia
Speaker 2: before and I think it's I think it's just wonderful.
Speaker 1: So so your book, your book that you just referred to,
Speaker 1: Holy Disruptor, what's the full title of it.
Speaker 2: Fully Disruptor, Shattering the shiny facade and getting louder with
Speaker 2: the truth, right.
Speaker 1: Yes, now that's a huge concept. Yes, yes it is,
Speaker 1: and it was born from of course, people might not know.
Speaker 1: I was explaining this story to my husband when I
Speaker 1: was reading your book. He didn't know about the Douggers.
Speaker 1: He didn't know about nineteen in counting, he didn't even
Speaker 1: know about seventeen in counting, who were an enormous sensation
Speaker 1: in the kind of mid teens of this century on television,
Speaker 1: big TLC show and a huge Christian family literally huge
Speaker 1: nineteen kids. Huge. Yes, your aunt and uncle at the
Speaker 1: helm of that family, Michelle and Jimbob.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: And you came in and really gave the series a
Speaker 1: bit of a pep as cousin Amy, yeah, you with
Speaker 1: a cousin of the nineteen or crazy cousin.
Speaker 2: Crazy Yes, yeah, that was definitely a nickname.
Speaker 1: And they were part of this religion which I had
Speaker 1: to write down as well, because of course there's so
Speaker 1: many offshoots of religions, particularly in the States. The Institute
Speaker 1: in Basic Life Principles, What did that mean? That religion?
Speaker 1: How was it manifest?
Speaker 2: Basically it was just kind of a like a very
Speaker 2: closed system. It really promised like a very beautiful life.
Speaker 2: There's an umbrella, and whoever is under that umbrella as
Speaker 2: far as like your husband is under that umbrella, or
Speaker 2: like your the husband is the umbrella, it's God. And
Speaker 2: then they are over their wives and then over their
Speaker 2: children as well. And so it basically said, like, if
Speaker 2: you love God, if you're going to follow these principles
Speaker 2: that we have in this book and in this you know,
Speaker 2: throughout this entire I don't know, it's a whole different mindset,
Speaker 2: if you will, very very extra extra conservative and Christian Christian,
Speaker 2: but to the extreme.
Speaker 1: So modesty dressing, yes, yes, which means what for the
Speaker 1: for the women in particular, the women have.
Speaker 2: Many many rules dresses only or skirts. They have to
Speaker 2: cover up their kneecaps, they have to be full length,
Speaker 2: there can't be any dark makeup. They can't really express themselves.
Speaker 2: I'm not allowed to cut their hair. Yeah, they can't
Speaker 2: show their collarbone. Everything is very.
Speaker 1: Because the colarbine is above the boob.
Speaker 2: That is what that is about. Absolutely, and so yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just one of those things where the IBLP was
Speaker 2: definitely very much involved in every aspect of their life.
Speaker 1: Yes, and so they were the Duggers were this family
Speaker 1: that kept growing throughout their series. Yes, and America fell
Speaker 1: in love with them, so did a lot of the world. Yes,
Speaker 1: that was exposed to the show. And because they were
Speaker 1: this great, joyous, wholesome, very obedient. Yes, they seemed like
Speaker 1: a functional family.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there has been a divide, a large divide in
Speaker 2: our family given everything that's happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is sad because you were such an integral
Speaker 1: part of that family and became an integral part of
Speaker 1: the show. You modestly describe yourself as sort of a
Speaker 1: cameo character, a side character, but you really brought a
Speaker 1: lot of life and fun to that show.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, and.
Speaker 1: A counterpoint, I guess to a certain extent, because you
Speaker 1: were considered very worldly and wild.
Speaker 2: Yes, I was the one that they like, people would
Speaker 2: pray for my soul and when they would see me
Speaker 2: out in the world, they'd be like, we're praying for
Speaker 2: you to like find Jesus, and I'm like, this is great,
Speaker 2: Like that's crazy. You know. I definitely am a believer.
Speaker 2: It's something that is very dear to my heart. My
Speaker 2: faith is keeps me strong. I have survived because of
Speaker 2: my faith, and so yeah, it's just it's just interesting
Speaker 2: looking back, how many people prayed for my soul when
Speaker 2: my soul was secure.
Speaker 1: You know, it was by contrast to the rest of
Speaker 1: the duggers that you seemed so wild through the prism
Speaker 1: of the rest of the world, you also seemed like
Speaker 1: a modest woman of faith.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, no, thank you for saying that. I definitely
Speaker 2: like that nickname in that title a little bit more.
Speaker 1: And the crazy kind of rubbed you up the wrong way,
Speaker 1: to the point where you approached your uncle, who was
Speaker 1: the patriarch of the family, and said, why do I
Speaker 1: have to be called crazy? Yes?
Speaker 2: Yeah, why is that my nickname doesn't really fit?
Speaker 1: And what did he say?
Speaker 2: He just basically said that, don't worry about it. It's
Speaker 2: just something fun. Just go with it. It won't matter,
Speaker 2: you know, just normal, I feel like normal dismissive type
Speaker 2: of comments, just kind of blew it off like it
Speaker 2: was nothing.
Speaker 1: Yes, but at that point, because you're part of this,
Speaker 1: you're also under the umbrella. You're not directly under the umbrella,
Speaker 1: but you've grown up with this belief system as well.
Speaker 1: You're very familiar with how the dog is operate.
Speaker 2: I'm very familiar with it. I never I was never
Speaker 2: really under an umbrella, if you will, but I was
Speaker 2: around it, and I you know, there was a couple
Speaker 2: of times that I felt very controlled by it. Yes
Speaker 2: in particular, I mean just in general when I would
Speaker 2: go over there, I would have to kind of change
Speaker 2: my persona. I couldn't really show the real me.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It was hard to connect with some of the girls
Speaker 2: and just some of my family members because they didn't
Speaker 2: know like the things that teenagers struggle with or even
Speaker 2: you know, young adults struggle with, because they were very
Speaker 2: sheltered and just I think, kind of hidden from the
Speaker 2: world in a lot of a lot of ways. And
Speaker 2: I understand about protecting children. We should do that, we should,
Speaker 2: but at some point I feel like we have to,
Speaker 2: you know, when age appropriate. We had to talk to
Speaker 2: them about the real struggles, the real darkness of this world,
Speaker 2: and it was just something that you know, as you know,
Speaker 2: you read my book, Kate, and so there was just
Speaker 2: a lot of hidden pain that I was experiencing and
Speaker 2: that I never got a chance to really speak to
Speaker 2: my cousins about it because you know, they didn't know
Speaker 2: that kind of pain, which is incredible that they didn't.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, they were having their own
Speaker 2: pain that I didn't know about.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, and in fact a lot of them didn't
Speaker 1: even know substantially or tangibly what that pain was. But
Speaker 1: children are, you know, like insects to a certain extent
Speaker 1: with antenna. Even though a lot of the world is
Speaker 1: denied to them, the vibrations of them transmit back into
Speaker 1: them what is going on.
Speaker 2: They're very perceptive, very yes.
Speaker 1: And because you're a similar age to the older Dugger children,
Speaker 1: and of course there were so many younger ones. At
Speaker 1: what point did you become aware that there was some
Speaker 1: darkness in the family.
Speaker 2: There were several instances that happened, and every time that
Speaker 2: something would happen, I would literally go to my uncle
Speaker 2: and be like, hey, I saw this, Like I've got
Speaker 2: to tell you, this is a big deal. Was there
Speaker 2: was porn found on a computer at one point, and
Speaker 2: it was way before any scandals or anything like that happened.
Speaker 1: Right, So it was like a year before anything happened.
Speaker 1: You've got a second hand computer, yeah, from Josh Duga.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, my dad actually got it from him. That
Speaker 2: was years ago, years, years and years ago before anything
Speaker 2: came out and I want to make that very perfectly clear,
Speaker 2: and yeah, it was just I was mistaken. My son never,
Speaker 2: if I can remember correctly in my own opinion, he
Speaker 2: basically said like, I, you know, my son never has
Speaker 2: a problem with dad, and you're mistaken, and there isn't
Speaker 2: a problem.
Speaker 1: So Josh Duga, for people who don't know, was the
Speaker 1: eldest of the Dugga children, the eldest son. And at
Speaker 1: one point, this is the way that his parents have
Speaker 1: told the story, he came to them when he was
Speaker 1: like twelve, and he said that he had been inappropriately
Speaker 1: touching at this point, I think two of his sisters
Speaker 1: while they were asleep, they didn't know, over their clothes,
Speaker 1: over the blankets or whatever. So the parents sent him
Speaker 1: to an affiliated Bible sort of rehabilitation center. Obviously, there
Speaker 1: was a lot of praying, There was a lot of
Speaker 1: whatever they say that they thought the situation to be
Speaker 1: dealt with. He returned to the family, they told the
Speaker 1: girls about it. The girls had no idea that it
Speaker 1: had even happened. When Josh came back to the family
Speaker 1: after six months away or whatever, the girls said they
Speaker 1: could tell that he was a different person. They thought
Speaker 1: it was done with. But Amy, it wasn't done with,
Speaker 1: was it not?
Speaker 2: In my opinion, no, ma'am.
Speaker 1: So then there was a re occurrence of inappropriate behavior,
Speaker 1: and then the Duggers let the police know he had
Speaker 1: a record, but because he as a juvenile, that record
Speaker 1: was supposed to be sealed. The girls went to the police.
Speaker 2: They went to the police, but the police officer that
Speaker 2: dealt with the crime in the situation turned out to
Speaker 2: be a predator himself and is now in prison for
Speaker 2: the same things that Josh is.
Speaker 1: That's right, for fifty seven years. Huge sentence, huge sentence.
Speaker 1: So the girls then turned out that there were five
Speaker 1: of them, four of the girls in the family and
Speaker 1: a babysitter. They went to the police. They also made
Speaker 1: statements that was all supposed to be part of this
Speaker 1: sealed because they were all juveniles, it was supposed to
Speaker 1: be the records were supposed to be sealed. Then, as
Speaker 1: the show is hitting Max's popularity, somebody leaks those sealed
Speaker 1: records and the whole Dugger world, I imagine, turns topsy turvy.
Speaker 2: I think it completely collapsed. It's an empire that it's
Speaker 2: just so sad. It's something that I can't even wrap
Speaker 2: my head around it till this day. But I wrote
Speaker 2: Holy Disruptor to kind of share the backstory. I think
Speaker 2: everybody knows, or a lot of people know, especially in
Speaker 2: the States. Maybe in Australia hopefully so, but a lot
Speaker 2: of people know. I think the front scandals and the
Speaker 2: headlines and all of that. But what people don't know
Speaker 2: is what I've written in Holy Disruptor. It's my actual
Speaker 2: life story, yes, and the realness of it, of just
Speaker 2: the conversations and the things that's gone on in my
Speaker 2: life that no one ever knew. And it's the lies
Speaker 2: told were the I mean, I literally in my book
Speaker 2: have a list of lies that were told to me.
Speaker 2: And it's not the fact that I'm trying to call
Speaker 2: out or like you know, shun my family. No, it
Speaker 2: is absolutely the saddest thing to me that I have
Speaker 2: to put boundaries in place like this. I wish to
Speaker 2: God I didn't have to do this.
Speaker 1: So to explain your relationship your mum, Deanna, your precious mother, Yes,
Speaker 1: is the sister of Jim Bob who was the father
Speaker 1: of the nineteen And what you've written about in your
Speaker 1: book so eloquently and very movingly actually is your own
Speaker 1: story of generational trauma. Yeah, trauma, pain in some cases
Speaker 1: almost persecution, dysfunction, abuse.
Speaker 2: Cruelty, financial abuse. Right, there's a lot in the book.
Speaker 2: It's like I can smile about it now, I think
Speaker 2: because I've healed from so much. You know, I'm not
Speaker 2: making light of the situation. I'm not making light of
Speaker 2: what is in the book, because there is some deep
Speaker 2: and dark and awful things in the book. But you're
Speaker 2: seeing a healed version of amy where I can speak
Speaker 2: openly and just smile from ear to ear knowing that like,
Speaker 2: I don't have to live that way anymore. You know.
Speaker 1: Well, it's very interesting because, of course, a well known
Speaker 1: Bible scripture is the Truth will set you free.
Speaker 2: So true. It really is so true. It has I
Speaker 2: feel a thousand times lighter by sharing my story. And
Speaker 2: I literally said, I don't care about New York Times bestseller.
Speaker 2: That's not why I did it. I did it to
Speaker 2: help hearts. I did it to connect with women and
Speaker 2: people all over the world that have experienced all kinds
Speaker 2: of abuse and gas lighting and narcissistic abuse and love
Speaker 2: bombing and flying monkeys and all the all the terms
Speaker 2: used that are that are so important to know about
Speaker 2: narcissistic people. It's just so sad that people use it
Speaker 2: in the name of Jesus. People hide under the mask
Speaker 2: of Jesus, and yet they can hurt little ones, and
Speaker 2: they can lie and steal and cheat and do all
Speaker 2: these things.
Speaker 1: It's horrible when you're talking amy about narcissistic people, who
Speaker 1: are you referring to in particular your own family and then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my own family and my extended family. I mean,
Speaker 2: and it shows I wouldn't I don't want to call
Speaker 2: out names, but it literally shows you know, what you
Speaker 2: put out in the world, what you put, what you say,
Speaker 2: what you do, your reputation matters. And when it's not
Speaker 2: with your words and your actions aren't matching up, that's
Speaker 2: a huge problem. That's a huge character flaw in a person.
Speaker 2: And I just think it's really important to share the
Speaker 2: backstories as to why. You know, one minute, we're on
Speaker 2: a show and everything's great. In the next minute and
Speaker 2: it's nowhere to be found and you know all the things.
Speaker 2: And so for me, I was like, Wow, how can
Speaker 2: my story connect with people around the world? And I
Speaker 2: can literally like be like, how can you be a
Speaker 2: holy disruptor? In your own life, how can you disrupt
Speaker 2: the toxic cycles that are in your own family? And
Speaker 2: that's what I wrote about.
Speaker 1: And at what point did you decide that you were
Speaker 1: going to write a book, Because it's very interesting that
Speaker 1: from that side of the family, I gather that there
Speaker 1: you have a relationship with Jill.
Speaker 2: You, Yeah, she's wonderful.
Speaker 1: She's the only daughter that you're you have contact with still.
Speaker 2: Jill and I have a very healthy cousinship. Her boys
Speaker 2: come over, they've they've stayed the night. We just have
Speaker 2: such a great relationship and we connect our stories and
Speaker 2: she's just such a wonderful person. The other girls I
Speaker 2: haven't spoken to in a really long time. I have
Speaker 2: reached out a Ginger couple of times, But you know,
Speaker 2: I understand that they have to be they think they
Speaker 2: think they need to be, in my opinion, loyal to
Speaker 2: the family name, and that they still have to like
Speaker 2: honor their parents and all of that. And I just
Speaker 2: hope someday that they all, all of them, as a whole,
Speaker 2: will think for themselves and outside of maybe what they've
Speaker 2: been taught, I think there's a whole lot that they
Speaker 2: probably still need to learn and heal from in my opinion.
Speaker 1: Sure, because they brothers gone to gile, he's in prison.
Speaker 1: The family are still have still aside from Jill, are
Speaker 1: there any others they seem to have closed ranks?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not really sure of honestly who all is.
Speaker 2: But none of them really speak out loud, you know.
Speaker 2: I'm Jill Do's Jill has her book is incredible.
Speaker 1: So has she stepped out from under the umbrella? Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no umbrella. She uses it only for the rain.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: She's her own person and I love to see it.
Speaker 2: She's just wonderful and boho bohemian and you can just
Speaker 2: tell she's so she's so happy, she's so happy, and
Speaker 2: I just I love that for her.
Speaker 1: After the break, Amy recalls the moment she saw the
Speaker 1: truth about her family on the front cover of a magazine.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I think often when you're raised in
Speaker 1: a religious family, which I also was, Okay, you only
Speaker 1: know the normal that you grow up with. And all
Speaker 1: children are like that anyway, aren't they to a certain extent?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah for sure.
Speaker 1: At what point did you start to think what I've
Speaker 1: regarded as normal is probably irregular?
Speaker 2: Good question. With the scandal started happening when the first
Speaker 2: one blew our minds?
Speaker 1: So which was which was the first one? Was that
Speaker 1: when it was printed on the cover of the magazine,
Speaker 1: when it was you saw Walmart.
Speaker 2: That I saw it in Walmart, and that moment, I
Speaker 2: was just like, what, Like, what is this? This could
Speaker 2: not be true. There's no way this can be true.
Speaker 1: Imagine tell me about that, Die Amy, tell me about
Speaker 1: where you were, And.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. I don't even I honestly don't even
Speaker 2: know what I was doing at Walmart. It's been so
Speaker 2: long ago, getting some groceries, minding my own business, you know,
Speaker 2: and just I don't really pick up magazines normally. But
Speaker 2: when you see a house that you have gone to
Speaker 2: a million plus times on a front cover with the
Speaker 2: words House of Horrors and big bold letters printed on it,
Speaker 2: you stop in your tracks and you go, what is this?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, And I knew something was off. My
Speaker 2: heart was pounding, I was like sweating. I had tears
Speaker 2: in my eyes. People probably thought I was crazy. At Walmart,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just staring at this magazine title and
Speaker 2: this cover, and I just I was so broken hearted,
Speaker 2: and at the same time, I didn't want to believe it.
Speaker 1: But when you saw that title House of Horrors, it
Speaker 1: must have brought back to you the computer it did.
Speaker 1: What was your first thought? Did you know straight away
Speaker 1: that it was something to do with Josh? Like, how
Speaker 1: are you processing it? I have the knowledge that you had.
Speaker 2: I honestly didn't. I didn't want to go there, right.
Speaker 2: I always wanted to believe the good in people. And
Speaker 2: I'm not necessarily naive, especially not anymore, but I used
Speaker 2: to just believe what I was told. So I asked
Speaker 2: my grandma, I asked my mom. They had no idea
Speaker 2: what it was, you know, my mom or my grandma
Speaker 2: was given some kind of Oh they were they were
Speaker 2: just camping, and he and Josh went and scared the
Speaker 2: girls and got a little too close, you know, And
Speaker 2: I was like, what that doesn't make sense. Why is
Speaker 2: that a headline? And then you're right, I did. I
Speaker 2: started to think about the things that I tried to
Speaker 2: get someone to pay attention to years ago.
Speaker 1: Was that also, before that, before you saw that headline
Speaker 1: you write in your book about when you found one
Speaker 1: of your cousins in the fatal position in the pantry, crying.
Speaker 2: Yes, that was all before the headlines as well.
Speaker 1: Right, okay, so you must have thought of that as well.
Speaker 1: That incident I did.
Speaker 2: I did. I was thinking, oh my goodness, what caused
Speaker 2: that person to react in such a like just a
Speaker 2: broken way. I had a million questions. And the thing is, Kate,
Speaker 2: is that the truth has always been very hard to
Speaker 2: find in my family, and it's really I hate that.
Speaker 2: Why does it have to be that way?
Speaker 1: Well? I think you know why, Amy, I do. People
Speaker 1: only hide the truth when the truth is at odds
Speaker 1: with what they're trying to project. Like what do you
Speaker 1: ever hide in life? People hide treasure, and they hide
Speaker 1: seen and shame.
Speaker 2: Right, they hide darkness. They it's just it's so sad
Speaker 2: and so yeah. In that moment, I think I just
Speaker 2: was like, oh no, I just broke down. I just
Speaker 2: broke down. And it took me a really long time
Speaker 2: to face the truth that this is actually happening and
Speaker 2: that there's so much more to the story.
Speaker 1: Did you buy the magazine?
Speaker 2: I didn't. I read the article and I just stood
Speaker 2: there and then I was like, oh my gosh, like,
Speaker 2: because magazines can write anything, right, So I wanted to
Speaker 2: give my family a chance to just be honest with
Speaker 2: me and so I did call my uncle after that
Speaker 2: after seeing that, and I was told that there was
Speaker 2: no truth to the story. And I was told that
Speaker 2: don't it'll let it blow over. There's no truth to it.
Speaker 2: Don't don't talk to media about it. It's just they
Speaker 2: needed a story, that they needed a headline. And I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, man, I'm so sorry. You guys have
Speaker 2: to deal with that because that's a really like negative,
Speaker 2: ugly headline.
Speaker 1: And at that time, of course, Josh was married, wasn't he,
Speaker 1: And there had been he just got married on the
Speaker 1: show that was a special. It had rated enormously worse.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's just I'm like, I want to know
Speaker 2: the truth, and you know, regardless if it's bad or good,
Speaker 2: it's just I feel like people deserve the truth. And
Speaker 2: that's why I wrote Holy Disruptor, is to say, hey,
Speaker 2: there's a whole lot more story that has never been told.
Speaker 2: And no, it's not a tell all, you know, it's
Speaker 2: not a tell all of my family, like here's all
Speaker 2: the crap, you know, here's all the bad things. But
Speaker 2: at the same time, it's the story of my life
Speaker 2: from the beginning all the way until now. It really
Speaker 2: connects the dots as to why things happen and why
Speaker 2: there's boundaries in place. Yes, there has to be there
Speaker 2: has to be boundaries and place. I must protect my child,
Speaker 2: I must do it.
Speaker 1: I actually found your book to be very uplifting, Thank you,
Speaker 1: because it's the tale of how you've come out of
Speaker 1: a lot of darkness in your own life. It's also
Speaker 1: very interesting about generational brokenness, generational brokenness in your family,
Speaker 1: your mother who suffered at the hands of her grandparents,
Speaker 1: who were also Jimbob's parents, of parents and grandparents. Yes,
Speaker 1: do you think that. I mean, even when you're telling
Speaker 1: in your book about how you were never allowed to
Speaker 1: be alone with your grandfather and you didn't understand why
Speaker 1: that was. What were the rules in place that you
Speaker 1: were told about your grandfather?
Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness. Well, first off, my grandma was like
Speaker 2: my second mom. She helped raise me. When my mom
Speaker 2: wasn't available to pick me up from school, my grandma did.
Speaker 2: We went shopping together, we were best friends. We did
Speaker 2: everything together. So it was we had this really really
Speaker 2: we were the closest out of all the cousins. I
Speaker 2: was the closest to Grandma. And they all know that
Speaker 2: they would all say that. But I think that because
Speaker 2: of that type of relationship that we had, she could
Speaker 2: just be open and honest and tell me, well, okay,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say she was open and honest. I think
Speaker 2: there was a lot she was hiding a lot of pain,
Speaker 2: a lot of hurt, a lot of things she didn't
Speaker 2: know how to even work through. But I do think
Speaker 2: that she just made it really like easy to understand.
Speaker 2: I was a little girl. So she'd be like, Hey,
Speaker 2: if you see Grandpa, you know, in the hallway at night,
Speaker 2: don't go out and say hi to him. Just stay
Speaker 2: in your room. And I was like okay, and she
Speaker 2: was like, now we lock our door, like I'm gonna
Speaker 2: check your door every night, make sure it's locked. And
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, Like it wasn't. She didn't make
Speaker 2: it sound like he was like a terrible person. It
Speaker 2: was more of just like, hey, like this is just
Speaker 2: practical and what we do. And so I just knew,
Speaker 2: step by step that's what we do. I knew my
Speaker 2: grandpa didn't sit on the couch with me. I knew
Speaker 2: if I had a blanket on the couch, I had
Speaker 2: to move if my grandpa sat down beside me, I
Speaker 2: knew that he couldn't be in the backyard with me.
Speaker 2: I knew I couldn't be in a car with him.
Speaker 2: I knew he couldn't like take me on a fun outing.
Speaker 2: He couldn't pick me up from school, he couldn't take
Speaker 2: me from school. I knew these like big rules. But
Speaker 2: I also thought it was just practical. And I just
Speaker 2: like I said, I was young. You believe what you're told,
Speaker 2: and so for me, I didn't put the two and
Speaker 2: two together until I was older.
Speaker 1: Right, what was the moment where you went an incident
Speaker 1: you write about in the book where he called you
Speaker 1: into his room.
Speaker 2: Whyn, That wasn't me, that was my mom. That was
Speaker 2: my mom, that that happens. How she knew, That's how
Speaker 2: she knew? Oh right, Yeah, I did not know for
Speaker 2: a very long time. It wasn't until my grandma passed
Speaker 2: and my grandpa were gone that my mom sat me down,
Speaker 2: bawling her eyes out and just told me the truth
Speaker 2: about them. I think she wanted to protect me as
Speaker 2: long as possible, And yeah, it's just something that Thank god,
Speaker 2: my grandma checked my door every night. Thank God my
Speaker 2: mom protected me. You know, I don't know what well
Speaker 2: I know what could have happened.
Speaker 1: When she told you the truth of her parents, which
Speaker 1: is also very hard to speak aloud for a number
Speaker 1: of reasons, sure, but also because they were also a
Speaker 1: religious family as well, so there was lucky.
Speaker 2: There were They went to church every Sunday, everywhere day,
Speaker 2: very much involved in the church.
Speaker 1: When she told you the truth of them, how did
Speaker 1: she put it to you?
Speaker 2: She just said that I need to tell you the
Speaker 2: truth about some things. Have a seat, And I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: and I was kind of, you know, like touched her
Speaker 2: shoulder and I was like, what's going on? And she
Speaker 2: was just like, there's a lot of things that you
Speaker 2: don't know that you need to know because this is
Speaker 2: an important part of our family's history. And I was just,
Speaker 2: I mean, what do you do? I literally plummeted like
Speaker 2: a rock. I felt like I've always had this feeling
Speaker 2: over me that I can protect my mom, that I
Speaker 2: need to protect my mom I always have from my dad,
Speaker 2: from everybody. I've always felt.
Speaker 1: Because your mom said herself, and you write this, your
Speaker 1: mom always said about you, You're the tree that shaded me. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: which gives me goose bumps.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's a very powerful statement when you really
Speaker 2: think about it. I just remember us both crying and
Speaker 2: and we just held each other, you know, and I
Speaker 2: just said, I'm so sorry for the pain that you
Speaker 2: experienced in your life.
Speaker 1: Amy. Do you think that at the point that she
Speaker 1: told you timeline wise, I'm trying to get this clear,
Speaker 1: do you think that was because of what was happening
Speaker 1: in the other arm of the family.
Speaker 2: No, my mom had no idea at all. We found
Speaker 2: out about all the other darkness in the family on
Speaker 2: national television like everyone else. Wow, slap in the face.
Speaker 2: That is a slap in the face to find out
Speaker 2: horrible truths that we were told were completely like you know,
Speaker 2: there was no truth to it at all, National Television.
Speaker 1: Were you together when you were watching it? Yes.
Speaker 2: I was actually trying on my wedding dress. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: and uh my mom got a text and said turn
Speaker 2: on the TV. You have to see this, And so
Speaker 2: we were like, what in the world. So we turned
Speaker 2: on the TV and we just sat there and just cried.
Speaker 2: I just sat I was in my wedding dress crying
Speaker 2: and what was that story about the about the girls?
Speaker 2: There was you know, when it actually came to truth
Speaker 2: that it was true. You know. The headline on the
Speaker 2: on the magazine was just, oh, what's this, you know,
Speaker 2: but there's no truth to it yet. So that was
Speaker 2: when the first moment that I even got a whim
Speaker 2: of like something could be off, you know, but when
Speaker 2: it actually came true and was awful and disgusting on
Speaker 2: every level. Yeah, we saw it on television.
Speaker 1: Your grandma, who you were talking about, who played such
Speaker 1: an amazing pivotal role in your life, also was the
Speaker 1: one that got you involved in the TV show.
Speaker 2: Yes, correct, Yes, yeah, she was stubborn as a mule. Okay,
Speaker 2: let me tell you. She knew she had she had
Speaker 2: her inner workings. She's a very she was a very
Speaker 2: smart woman, and I think she just just kind of
Speaker 2: put two and two together in her mind. And yeah,
Speaker 2: that's why I was on the show in the first place.
Speaker 2: I never asked to be on the show. I never
Speaker 2: hinted to be on the show. I never tried to
Speaker 2: be you know, jumping the camera, nothing, nothing. I knew
Speaker 2: that that was their world and I would just see
Speaker 2: them after, you know. And I never thought in a
Speaker 2: million years that being on a reality show for as
Speaker 2: long as I did would equal a huge documentary on Amazon,
Speaker 2: Shiny Happy People, that has just blown the charts, and
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that the truth has been exposed. And
Speaker 2: then because of that, now I have a memoir about
Speaker 2: the things that have gone on in my own life.
Speaker 1: When you went that day to pick up your grandma
Speaker 1: to taker to the dentist, I think it was to.
Speaker 2: An appointment, Yeah, just to an appointment. I forgot what
Speaker 2: it was now, it's been so long ago.
Speaker 1: And she said, come in and you tell the story
Speaker 1: of how you drove up to the house and there
Speaker 1: were the film crew trucks everywhere, and you knew that
Speaker 1: they always filmed, but prior to that, you'd not really
Speaker 1: been around when they were filming, though you did spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time with your cousins in at the house.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, I just didn't ever show up on like
Speaker 2: the filming days.
Speaker 1: Right. So that day, your grandma seed, I've just got
Speaker 1: to do a few things. I want you to come in, right,
Speaker 1: like you said, she knew what she was doing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And my understanding of it is that she was giving
Speaker 1: you a gift. Then, because for all the ensuing fallout
Speaker 1: of it, you were on that show for one hundred
Speaker 1: and nine episodes and over having a great time and
Speaker 1: you seed it. Yes, yeah, yeah right, it opened the
Speaker 1: world up to you, it did.
Speaker 2: I listen. It's not that I'm not grateful for the opportunities.
Speaker 2: I know that I would be absolutely well. First off,
Speaker 2: let me just say this, O, Kate, I don't consider
Speaker 2: myself famous, not even a little bit. Okay, Like I
Speaker 2: do not like the famous title. I think that is ridiculous.
Speaker 2: I'm just a cousin that people will know. You know.
Speaker 2: It's just something that if you're like, oh yeah, the
Speaker 2: cousin on the show. Oh yeah, it's like that. I
Speaker 2: want to be relatable. I want to be friendly to everyone.
Speaker 2: I don't feel famous. Let me just say that.
Speaker 1: But however you identify, yeah, it's probably at odds with
Speaker 1: how the world identifies you, because I imagine even when
Speaker 1: you were standing in Walmart looking at that magazine, there
Speaker 1: were people looking at you. Guys. Yeah this crazy casin
Speaker 1: Amy reading about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's true. I mean I am one of
Speaker 2: the people that, like, I guess when people do see
Speaker 2: me out in public, they'll be like Amy, hey, and
Speaker 2: like they'll just act like they know me, and I
Speaker 2: am I am that bubbly type of personality, very sanguine
Speaker 2: and like I'll just hug them and I'm like, it's
Speaker 2: so nice to meet you. It's thank you, Like you know,
Speaker 2: I'm very I it's very humbling. It is extremely humbling
Speaker 2: to be noticed like that and to just, I don't know,
Speaker 2: to share my story in such a real and honest
Speaker 2: and raw way in.
Speaker 1: The fallout of the show. So when these revelations came
Speaker 1: to light, the show was waiting to be rolled over
Speaker 1: into another season. That didn't happen, did it?
Speaker 2: That brought It's not yeah preaching Holt to everything greeching Holt.
Speaker 2: I actually they were very interested in filming my wedding
Speaker 2: and it's something that you know, I wanted to kind
Speaker 2: of give as a gift to the to the viewers,
Speaker 2: to the ones that grew up with me, to see
Speaker 2: me married and all of that. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: with everything going on, they were like, you're gonna have
Speaker 2: to postpone it or just do it without it, and
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm not waiting. I want to be married,
Speaker 2: like you know, I had, I had everything set everything,
Speaker 2: and so that, yeah, it stopped a screeching Holt.
Speaker 1: And your husband Dylan. Yes, who has been such a
Speaker 1: pillar of strength to you.
Speaker 2: He is my hero.
Speaker 1: What did he make coming into the family. What was
Speaker 1: his reading? You know, sometimes you see through the eyes
Speaker 1: of a stranger things that you haven't seen yourself.
Speaker 2: Yes, no, he So here's the thing. They didn't really
Speaker 2: get to know Dylan. He was over there a couple
Speaker 2: of times, and I really remember like some funny moments.
Speaker 2: I'll just tell you. There was one time that Dylan
Speaker 2: was talking to one of my little cousins, so sweet,
Speaker 2: so innocent, you know, and she's like, Dylan, what's your
Speaker 2: favorite color? And he's like black and they were like
Speaker 2: oooh like and he was like, what black looks sexy
Speaker 2: on a car? And I like kicked him underneath the
Speaker 2: table and I was like, stops. And he's like what
Speaker 2: did I do? What did I do? You know, like
Speaker 2: all that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Because black is the forbidden color.
Speaker 2: Correct. There was another time that they met him and
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, let's try this again. It was
Speaker 2: someone's birthday party and we went to a place that
Speaker 2: had you know, there was music, and you know, it
Speaker 2: was kind of loud, and it was bowling and it
Speaker 2: was like glow bowling that we were going to, and
Speaker 2: Dylan walked in dancing. Oh, he walked in dancing, and.
Speaker 1: I've forbidden also forbidden.
Speaker 2: Also the beat it has to Yeah, if it's an
Speaker 2: offbeat of any kind of drum, it's considered worldly and ungodly.
Speaker 2: And here he is just dancing and walking in and
Speaker 2: trying just to lighten the mood of like, Hey, I'm Dylan,
Speaker 2: and they all I Am not even kidding Kate. They
Speaker 2: all looked at him and turned completely around.
Speaker 1: Oh, so they wouldn't say the what the work of wickedness,
Speaker 1: which was the dancing.
Speaker 2: Right, yes, and so I he was like, what did
Speaker 2: I do? And so unfortunately they never truly got to
Speaker 2: see the man that I married and the person that
Speaker 2: he is.
Speaker 1: Were they at your wedding?
Speaker 2: They were, they were, But again it was a very
Speaker 2: interesting family dynamic there. They loved me, but only as
Speaker 2: far as they could get.
Speaker 1: Coming up next, Amy reflects on her relationship with her
Speaker 1: cousins and the unusual interactions they had. You also say
Speaker 1: in your book that sometimes when you would meet the
Speaker 1: girls on the street, for instance, they would greet you
Speaker 1: like you were a stranger. Yeah, even though you were
Speaker 1: their cousin that they saw so much of. Yeah, why
Speaker 1: was that? Do you think?
Speaker 2: I really don't know. I honestly think that there was
Speaker 2: so much hidden pain going on they didn't know how
Speaker 2: to probably process it. They didn't know how to handle
Speaker 2: the outside world in a lot of ways. This is
Speaker 2: clearly just my opinion, but I honestly think that there
Speaker 2: was just so much hidden that they were just like, oh, hi,
Speaker 2: let's not I think they also knew that I have
Speaker 2: perception as well, and like I've got discernment and so like,
Speaker 2: if I could tell something was off, then I could
Speaker 2: tell something was off, you know.
Speaker 1: But quite likely they'd been warned about you because you
Speaker 1: were perceived to be Yeah.
Speaker 2: That too. That too because I wasn't necessarily as godly
Speaker 2: as maybe they would have wanted me to be. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was considered maybe not someone that would understand their
Speaker 2: role in life and the way they presented themselves and
Speaker 2: all of that. I tried my hardest, though.
Speaker 1: You sure died.
Speaker 2: I just show them love and to be the cousin
Speaker 2: to them and try to introduce them to different things.
Speaker 2: You know. I would do cheerleading on the trampoline and
Speaker 2: teach them like secret cheerleading.
Speaker 1: Moves and no dancing.
Speaker 2: No dancing, but you know cheering like that's okay. Oh
Speaker 2: and I taught them like how to straighten their hair.
Speaker 1: You had to get special permission for that, didn't you.
Speaker 2: I did. Yes, Yeah, that was something that I was like, listen,
Speaker 2: if they can't cut their hair, at least give them
Speaker 2: another option to style it, you know, kind of thing.
Speaker 2: I loved them. I love I still do, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: my book is not written out of bitterness, not even
Speaker 2: a little bit. You know, I have no bitterness towards
Speaker 2: my family at all. It's just I'm a truth seeker
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to put up with lies. And
Speaker 2: I don't think the world should either.
Speaker 1: So that is your compulsion to tell the truth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: is a big driver.
Speaker 2: It is a big driver.
Speaker 1: At what point did you realize you couldn't, you couldn't
Speaker 1: protect the family and protect the truth. What was that moment?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really crazy thing. So you would think
Speaker 2: it had been the first scandal, right, but it actually wasn't.
Speaker 2: You have to understand that my family forgive and forget quickly, right,
Speaker 2: You're told that that's godly to do. So that's what
Speaker 2: I did. That's what I did, and so I saw
Speaker 2: everyone else. This is years later after the first scandal,
Speaker 2: and this second scandal, the Ashley Madison scandal as well,
Speaker 2: happened all around the same time.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, tell me about the Ashley Madison scandal.
Speaker 2: Oh, that one is just awful. The Ashley Madison scandal
Speaker 2: is actually like the stupidest thing. There's a website called
Speaker 2: Ashley Madison and the tagline is life is too short,
Speaker 2: Have an affair.
Speaker 1: It was for married people.
Speaker 2: It was for married people to have an affair and
Speaker 2: to find people to cheat on, to cheat with, which
Speaker 2: is absolutely disgusting.
Speaker 1: And once again, Josh Daga.
Speaker 2: He had two accounts. He used a famous picture and
Speaker 2: used my grandma's address.
Speaker 1: And this is while he was married to his wife Anna.
Speaker 2: Yeah, while he was married.
Speaker 1: And how did that scandal come.
Speaker 2: Out on the TV as well? On the TV as well? Wow,
Speaker 2: we had no idea, We had no idea that even existed.
Speaker 2: I didn't know what Ashley Madison website was. I mean,
Speaker 2: oh my goodness, but there was a huge data breach
Speaker 2: and so Ashley Madison had a huge data breach and
Speaker 2: every name on there came out, So it wasn't just
Speaker 2: my cousins. It was everybody's thousands and thousands of names
Speaker 2: came out. Pastors, all kinds of fathers, dads, priests, whatever,
Speaker 2: they all came out. It's just so sad that so
Speaker 2: many people live a double life. It was just it's
Speaker 2: disgusting to me.
Speaker 1: So it was after the Ashley Madison scandal that you went,
Speaker 1: I can serve the truth, or I can serve the
Speaker 1: family or was they something further? What had happened?
Speaker 2: It still better than that. It still wasn't. It still
Speaker 2: wasn't because I was just like, well, because I in
Speaker 2: my heart, I should back up. I confronted Josh. I
Speaker 2: confronted Josh. I went to see him. After the whole
Speaker 2: sister scandal, awful stuff came out. I was like, why
Speaker 2: is where's the truth? What's going on? What's the real story?
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah. I was hearing all kinds of different stories.
Speaker 2: So I went and discussed it with Josh head on.
Speaker 1: Where were you? Where did you go find him?
Speaker 2: I found him in the RV that was about, I
Speaker 2: don't know, very close to the home.
Speaker 1: So had he been banished from the house and he
Speaker 1: was living in this RVEY.
Speaker 2: He was living out there. Yeah, I don't know much
Speaker 2: information about why. I have my reasons, but yes, I
Speaker 2: went out there and I just looked at him, dead
Speaker 2: in the face, and I was just like, how long
Speaker 2: has this been going on? You know, all the questions?
Speaker 2: And he was dead, silent for a really long time,
Speaker 2: and it was making me more mad and more mad
Speaker 2: and more mad.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It was a taking time bomb. And I finally asked
Speaker 2: him one one specific question and I got the answer
Speaker 2: that I didn't want to get. And in that moment,
Speaker 2: I realized, I am walking away from this house and
Speaker 2: I am never probably coming back.
Speaker 1: Was that question when you said to him, why did
Speaker 1: you never do it to me? Was that that question? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And what did he say?
Speaker 2: I didn't want to feel like a martyr. It's not like,
Speaker 2: you know, it's not like, oh, like I'm this warrior,
Speaker 2: Like how come you didn't do it to me? You know?
Speaker 2: But I wondered, because why not me?
Speaker 1: Why not?
Speaker 2: And I wanted to know because my personality is just
Speaker 2: so different than the girls. And he looked me, and
Speaker 2: I mean it took forever him to him to look up,
Speaker 2: and it wasn't immediate. He looked at me and with
Speaker 2: like a really creepy smile. He said, I knew better.
Speaker 2: And you know, that's like a knife to the heart
Speaker 2: to know that a predator knows knew who to prey
Speaker 2: on and who what are the girls that are going
Speaker 2: to be silent and not say anything and be in
Speaker 2: pain and not not reach out for help. They can't,
Speaker 2: they feel silenced. And he knew, he knew in his
Speaker 2: heart that I would have raised hell, he knew it.
Speaker 1: And also that was at odds with what the family's
Speaker 1: narrative was, which that his father. When you listen to
Speaker 1: his father's language, he's still soft of heart and we
Speaker 1: can help him, and he's very contrite and he's repentant.
Speaker 1: You saw in that moment that none of that was true,
Speaker 1: and you saw the calculating mind of a preyer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was the most scariest moment because I looked
Speaker 2: at him. I have someone I grew up with my
Speaker 2: entire life, and I realized in that moment, I don't
Speaker 2: know this person at all. Who is this person? This
Speaker 2: is demonic and scary and evil and someone that I
Speaker 2: will not have in my life. And I won't have
Speaker 2: anyone that lies to me in my life. You know,
Speaker 2: if someone lies to you, Kate, they don't love you,
Speaker 2: they don't respect you, they don't you know, You're like
Speaker 2: a pawn in a chess game and they just move
Speaker 2: around to control and manipulate and do whatever they can
Speaker 2: and to fit their narrative. But their narrative that they're
Speaker 2: shit sharing to the world. And this could be any
Speaker 2: this could be anyone. It's not true. It's not true.
Speaker 2: When the words and actions match up, that's when it's truth.
Speaker 2: And so for me, in that moment, I didn't want
Speaker 2: to feel like a superhero, but I left. They might
Speaker 2: not have liked, you know how I was there in
Speaker 2: that moment, but I left feeling like a superhero confronted evil.
Speaker 2: I said my truth. I said I'm not gonna this
Speaker 2: is something I'm not gonna allow in my life. And
Speaker 2: in that moment I put up boundaries that have since
Speaker 2: then never been crossed.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you say also in your book, which
Speaker 1: is a very interesting analysis of how predatory and abusive
Speaker 1: behavior happens, and you say this, which is so wise.
Speaker 1: You say, abuses often start subtly probing for boundaries and
Speaker 1: observing their victims' reactions, and then you sort of go
Speaker 1: on to say that if they don't encounter resistance, then
Speaker 1: they know oh.
Speaker 2: And they know, yeah, Oh, you're easy to manipulate, You're
Speaker 2: easy to control, and I can have power over you.
Speaker 1: And yet the father of the nineteen Dagger family, Jim Bob,
Speaker 1: still exerts power over that family.
Speaker 2: Those are your words, not mine, but I I will
Speaker 2: definitely say that I don't think you were wrong in
Speaker 2: that statement.
Speaker 1: Do you think that there's ever any chance that any
Speaker 1: of the others will have a reckoning? Like, how do
Speaker 1: they process the fact that their eldest brother is in jail?
Speaker 2: I have no idea. Your guess is as good as mine.
Speaker 2: I honestly have no idea. When I left that day
Speaker 2: from my cousin's home. I haven't spoken to them since then.
Speaker 2: They've never reached out, and I've never reached out either.
Speaker 2: And it's a boundary that I won't cross, especially given
Speaker 2: you the most disgusting, saddest news of all of Why
Speaker 2: he's in prison now? I will protect my child more
Speaker 2: than anything.
Speaker 1: Why is he in prison now?
Speaker 2: He had a child abuse material found on his I
Speaker 2: don't know, laptop or phone or whatever. Illegal disgusting lows
Speaker 2: to the low content. I can't wrap my head around it.
Speaker 2: I seriously cannot.
Speaker 1: And even when I don't, can't remember which law enforcement
Speaker 1: armities Homeland right, Homeland Security conducted a raid on him
Speaker 1: at his work at a car wash where he was
Speaker 1: working a car lot.
Speaker 2: They own a car lot, they're yeah, they're on their
Speaker 2: own car dealership, right.
Speaker 1: And even then his dad was lying about why that
Speaker 1: had happened, yes, saying they went to the wrong address,
Speaker 1: they were looking for someone else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those lies, in my book are a span of weeks.
Speaker 2: Those didn't just happen all at one time. We asked
Speaker 2: several times if there was truth to anything that was
Speaker 2: being told, anything on TV. I even pleaded honestly with
Speaker 2: my uncle and I told him, I said, please, don't
Speaker 2: let us be ambushed. We've been ambushed twice on the television.
Speaker 2: Please if there's some thing to this, let us know.
Speaker 2: And he was like, oh, yeah, there isn't. There's no
Speaker 2: truth to any of this. And in that moment it
Speaker 2: was the same response, almost robotic, if you will, that
Speaker 2: I knew that that couldn't probably be the truth.
Speaker 1: But he looked to you straight in the eye.
Speaker 2: This was on the phone the first time that was
Speaker 2: seid st in the straight in the ear, and I
Speaker 2: just like listened to it and I was like, I've
Speaker 2: heard I've heard this before. I've heard this exact line before,
Speaker 2: And unfortunately I don't want to be right. I hate it.
Speaker 2: I hate the fact that I have to have these
Speaker 2: boundaries in place. But I, like I said, I'll do
Speaker 2: everything in my power to protect my peace and my
Speaker 2: mindset and my mental health and and my little my
Speaker 2: little family and my son and my mom. I will
Speaker 2: protect my mom more than anything. And so I'm like
Speaker 2: a mama bear all the way around. And so it's
Speaker 2: not even just my own child, it's every child, you know.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, if I could adopt them all, I would.
Speaker 2: I have such a heart for them. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: it just breaks my heart for anyone that can hurt.
Speaker 1: In your book, speaking of children as a child, you
Speaker 1: talk about you lying under the trampoline and longing for peace.
Speaker 1: I did. And you say you thought peace then was silence,
Speaker 1: but you've since realized what pieces.
Speaker 2: I've realized that peace is disrupting toxic cycles. That's how
Speaker 2: you have peace. It's not silence and being quiet and
Speaker 2: just letting go with the flow. And not you know,
Speaker 2: standing up for what you believe. It's it's not it's
Speaker 2: not just you know, churning your head and pretend it's
Speaker 2: not there and avoiding it. And that's not peace. What
Speaker 2: peace is saying like it ends with me. It's stopping
Speaker 2: in my generation. This will not continue in future generations
Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned and standing up for what
Speaker 2: is right.
Speaker 1: So when you look at now the life that you've
Speaker 1: built with your husband and your son, Dacks, do you
Speaker 1: think that you have built the life that you dreamt
Speaker 1: off under the trampoline?
Speaker 2: My goodness, you're gonna make me cry. God is good
Speaker 2: like that. I feel like he's a he loves to
Speaker 2: restore and I feel like, yes, I believe so. I
Speaker 2: don't know if you can hear anything behind me, but
Speaker 2: this is my house. This is just where I live
Speaker 2: and where I you know, do life. And it's I
Speaker 2: did give you just a picture of it. My son
Speaker 2: loves to cook, so he cooks with daddy, you know,
Speaker 2: on Sunday brunch.
Speaker 1: How old is Dax now?
Speaker 2: He just turns six? Okay, there is just there's a
Speaker 2: real real about my little family. And my mom is
Speaker 2: safe here and secure and she can heal and process
Speaker 2: and work through things. And we have each other now,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's just such a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: If JLSE came to you and said we want to
Speaker 1: make a reality show, what would you say?
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. I think there'd be a lot of
Speaker 2: questions before I ever did another reality show. I don't
Speaker 2: know if that's even a possibility, but I will just
Speaker 2: say that whatever I do, no matter what project it is,
Speaker 2: no matter what it is, I'm going to be as
Speaker 2: real as I am right now. And if there is
Speaker 2: the you know, I can't say my husband and I
Speaker 2: never argue, right, because that's not real. Everyone has tifts,
Speaker 2: and so I would just want it to be real.
Speaker 2: I wanted to show real marriage, real parenting, you know,
Speaker 2: real everything, and the ups and downs of what it
Speaker 2: really looks like in my family. And so yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: not against it, but I would definitely want to make
Speaker 2: sure that it's like Kardashians who love Jesus, you.
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, right, Yeah, And that the skeletons in the closet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no skeletons in the closet. There's some Halloween decor.
Speaker 2: That's about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Ron, you still have the name Daga. You're Amy
Speaker 1: Douga King.
Speaker 2: Yeah, actually I'm not. My middle name is Rochelle. My
Speaker 2: name is Amy Rochelle King. The Dugger name is my
Speaker 2: maiden name. Though when I was in elementary school, my
Speaker 2: name was Amy Dugger. My mom and dad had me
Speaker 2: at a wedlock. My mom's maiden name was Dougger, and
Speaker 2: then I got Dugger name. So I've never changed my
Speaker 2: name in order to be more liked or to be
Speaker 2: more accepted in the family. But for the book purposes,
Speaker 2: they were like, people are going to recognize the Dugger
Speaker 2: name because that's who you used to be. You used
Speaker 2: to beat Amy Dugger and then you got married. And
Speaker 2: so I was like, okay, okay, yes we can put
Speaker 2: that in there because it makes sense. People knew me
Speaker 2: as Amy Duggar for years before I got married.
Speaker 1: Of course, on a very successful, highly lucrative TV show.
Speaker 1: So I have to ask you this, Amy Dugger, you
Speaker 1: must have made a fortune being on a TV show.
Speaker 2: Well, if I did, if there was any kind of compensation,
Speaker 2: I never saw it.
Speaker 1: It is the most extraordinary thing when I read that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and your conversation with your uncle saying and it was
Speaker 1: when you were, you know, distancing yourself from the family. Yes,
Speaker 1: and things had come to a natural, unnatural end with
Speaker 1: the show. You never received any financial recompense for your
Speaker 1: work on that show.
Speaker 2: I had a conversation with my uncle before the last huge,
Speaker 2: disgusting scandal happened, and he did write me a check.
Speaker 2: I talk about it in the book. But during the show,
Speaker 2: and during the whole filming of the show, I never
Speaker 2: received any kind of compensation whatsoever.
Speaker 1: And even when he wrote you the check, it was
Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars. And then Jill has since revealed that
Speaker 1: he made from that show eight million dollars. Yeah, did
Speaker 1: he As far as you know, did any of the
Speaker 1: kids receive any of the cut of that or does
Speaker 1: it all go to the umbrella?
Speaker 2: In my opinion, it all goes to the umbrella. That's
Speaker 2: been a hard one to swallow, you know, just just
Speaker 2: because like we all worked, there was hours of interviews,
Speaker 2: there was it was work, regardless if you think or not.
Speaker 2: It was a reality show. Yes, but there's care and
Speaker 2: it's exhausting. You're always on, you know, you can't just
Speaker 2: be yourself, not be yourself, but you're you're always on.
Speaker 2: You're aware there's cameras, you know, and so I definitely
Speaker 2: believe that we deserved more, all of us did, every
Speaker 2: single one of us.
Speaker 1: So I understand that the Doug A name is such
Speaker 1: a recognizable one. People are going to pick up the
Speaker 1: book because they know you, they recognize the name. But
Speaker 1: what does that name mean to you? Now?
Speaker 2: It's a really good question, I think For me, I
Speaker 2: don't know. I feel like for me, it just reminds
Speaker 2: me of the questions, the lies, the secrets, the things
Speaker 2: that were never told. It's kind of stained in my opinion.
Speaker 2: And so I love the fact that now my name
Speaker 2: is Amy King. It's like a new beginning, It's a
Speaker 2: new chapter.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: People can they can I know the story, they can
Speaker 2: know what's happening, they can know, you know, my backstory,
Speaker 2: of course, But I hope the Amy that they saw
Speaker 2: on TV is so different from the Amy that they
Speaker 2: see now. In what way, I just have done the
Speaker 2: hard work of healing, working through just so much chaos.
Speaker 2: You know, I believe that God is not the author
Speaker 2: of confusion, and that's all I lived in for the
Speaker 2: longest time. And so now you know, I'm almost forty,
Speaker 2: I'm like thirty thirty nine, and I'm just I really
Speaker 2: like the slow pace of life and the peacefulness that
Speaker 2: it brings when you tell the truth and you just
Speaker 2: you know, cut the power cord of someone that's trying
Speaker 2: to control and manipulate.
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of control and manipulate, how should the Institute
Speaker 1: of Basic Life Principles be viewed? Now? Do you think?
Speaker 1: And how do you view them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Great question. In my opinion, I view them as
Speaker 2: a cult. It's a leader that you know, promises to
Speaker 2: have a care free and that God's going to protect
Speaker 2: you no matter what as long as you follow these principles.
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of sad and sickening things about
Speaker 2: the IVLP. In my eyes, they don't protect children. They don't.
Speaker 2: You can see it. You know, my family is on
Speaker 2: TV and people know the headlines and the really sad
Speaker 2: scandals that's happened. But there are probably thousands of families
Speaker 2: that are in the IVLP that have the exact same story.
Speaker 2: It just wasn't a headline news, you know.
Speaker 1: When the headlines came out. Did the church leadership have
Speaker 1: any official intervention?
Speaker 2: No? In my opinion as well, I believe they went
Speaker 2: radio silence. I truly believe that it's a breeding ground
Speaker 2: for all kinds of abuse and crimes. Did you know
Speaker 2: that they don't even allow their children to learn about
Speaker 2: the word abuse. The word abuse is not even a
Speaker 2: word that they can even know what it is. So
Speaker 2: if something were to happen within the home, or within
Speaker 2: a family camp, or wherever there is predators, because I
Speaker 2: guarantee you there are, they don't know what to even
Speaker 2: call it. Wow, it's really sad.
Speaker 1: You know, for those who are raised within institutions of
Speaker 1: control as you were. What does true freedom feel like?
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Kate, it is the most beautiful and
Speaker 2: wonderful thing. I don't take anything for granted anymore. I will, Like,
Speaker 2: just before our podcast, I just like sat outside on
Speaker 2: my patio and I just felt the warmth of the
Speaker 2: sun literally, and I was like, this is amazing. This
Speaker 2: is amazing because I grew up in so much chaos
Speaker 2: and turmoil and fear and control and manipulation and abuse
Speaker 2: that I didn't I didn't know that this kind of
Speaker 2: life is possible. I didn't know.
Speaker 1: How do you think you won that life for yourself?
Speaker 2: I think I had this rep toxic cycles and I
Speaker 2: had to break chains that were generational. I felt like, basically,
Speaker 2: just think of it like this. It's like having a
Speaker 2: big garden, right, and you see a lot of weeds
Speaker 2: right in this garden, and if you keep them there,
Speaker 2: they're going to overtake the garden.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: You got to rip them out. You have to like
Speaker 2: stand up for yourself and say I want better for
Speaker 2: my life, and I want better for my child, and
Speaker 2: I want better for future generations. And you have to
Speaker 2: just yank out those from the root, right. And that's
Speaker 2: just really what I've had to do.
Speaker 1: Oh, crazy, cousin Aimy, if you're crazy, I don't want
Speaker 1: to be signed.
Speaker 2: I don't feel crazy at all. I feel very validated, insane,
Speaker 2: and it is a beautiful thing and you're a part
Speaker 2: of it, and I just want to say thank you.
Speaker 2: For a while there, I was silenced for a really
Speaker 2: long time, and I didn't think I had any self confidence.
Speaker 2: I felt like no one wanted to hear from me,
Speaker 2: no one cared. When I was offered this book, idea,
Speaker 2: I told my editor, I told like the president of HarperCollins, Okay,
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm gonna be really honest with you.
Speaker 2: I don't think people are going to read my story
Speaker 2: and she was like what, and I was like, I
Speaker 2: just I don't. I have a really hard time believing
Speaker 2: in myself. And she was like, I want you to
Speaker 2: take some time and I want you to pray about it,
Speaker 2: and I want you to really understand that your story
Speaker 2: can help so many people. And in that moment, I
Speaker 2: was just like, this is an open door that God
Speaker 2: has allowed to be opened, and I'm going to walk
Speaker 2: through it. I'm going to walk through it. I'm going
Speaker 2: to just trust the process. I'm going to walk through it.
Speaker 2: And I'm so glad that I did because it has
Speaker 2: led me to talk to the most amazing people. And
Speaker 2: I just hope for the people that are hearing this
Speaker 2: conversation that if you're struggling, if you're hurting, if you
Speaker 2: have toxic cycles in your family, if you're around a
Speaker 2: narcissistic person, educate yourself. I think that's one of the
Speaker 2: main things is educate yourself. Get to know how narcissistic
Speaker 2: people react and what charges them, and you know how
Speaker 2: they go about life, and then make the proper decisions
Speaker 2: that the boundaries that are going to just keep you safe.
Speaker 1: Purely hypothetical, but if one of the nineteen and counting
Speaker 1: was going to read your book? Who do you think
Speaker 1: it might be?
Speaker 2: Oh goodness, that's a good question. I hope they all do.
Speaker 1: But you know they're not going to.
Speaker 2: But they're not going.
Speaker 1: But who's the one who's most likely to slyly secretly
Speaker 1: your aunt?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I hope so I would
Speaker 2: love for her to read my real story. I would love.
Speaker 2: I would love to connect with all of them. I
Speaker 2: have a very open door policy that if they ever
Speaker 2: have questions and they ever want to get to know
Speaker 2: the true me, the door is always open, and my
Speaker 2: heart goes out to them.
Speaker 1: Amy Douga King, thank you so much for joining us
Speaker 1: on No Filter.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: That's a wow of a story. Amy Dougah King is
Speaker 1: so courageous, and she shows the kind of curry that
Speaker 1: I think isn't loud or showy, but it's the quiet,
Speaker 1: daily kind that comes from telling the truth, even when
Speaker 1: it costs you everything. Her memoir, Oh Holy Disruptor, isn't
Speaker 1: just about breaking away from family or a restrictive faith.
Speaker 1: It's actually about what it means to rebuild from the
Speaker 1: inside out, to question just about everything that you've ever
Speaker 1: been taught to reclaim your sense of worth, your motherhood
Speaker 1: and your peace. Oh Holy Disruptor is out now wherever
Speaker 1: you get your books. And it's such a good read.
Speaker 1: It's really raw and brave and kind of sweet and
Speaker 1: surprisingly hopeful considering it's also got some real darkness in it.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to No Filter. The executive producer
Speaker 1: of No Filter is Nama Brown. The senior producer is
Speaker 1: Breed Player. Audio production is by Jacob Brown and video
Speaker 1: editing is by Josh Green. This episode was recorded at
Speaker 1: Session in Progress Studios and I am your host, Kate
Speaker 1: lane Brook. I will see you next Monday. Mamma Mia
Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that
Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on