WEBVTT - ‘Crazy Cousin’ Amy Saw Everything The Infamous Duggars Tried To Hide 0:00:10.365 --> 0:00:13.085 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.885 --> 0:00:16.885 Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:19.485 that this podcast is recorded on. I didn't want to 0:00:19.485 --> 0:00:21.765 feel like a murderer. It's not like, you know, it's 0:00:21.805 --> 0:00:24.405 not like, oh, like I'm this warrior, Like how come 0:00:24.445 --> 0:00:25.205 you didn't do it to me? 0:00:25.445 --> 0:00:25.645 You know? 0:00:26.045 --> 0:00:31.205 But I wondered, because why not me? Why not? And 0:00:31.285 --> 0:00:34.245 I wanted to know because my personality is just so 0:00:34.445 --> 0:00:38.325 different than the girls. And he looked at me, and 0:00:38.925 --> 0:00:40.845 I mean it took foreverham to him to look up. 0:00:41.125 --> 0:00:44.845 It wasn't immediate. He looked at me and with like 0:00:44.885 --> 0:00:48.565 a really creepy smile, he said, I knew better. 0:00:50.805 --> 0:00:55.485 Hello, I'm kateline Brook. Today's guest has lived through something 0:00:55.525 --> 0:00:58.485 most of us have only ever watched from a distance. 0:00:59.165 --> 0:01:02.765 You might know the name Daga, the American family made 0:01:02.765 --> 0:01:07.005 famous by the tl SEE reality series Nineteen Kids and Counting. 0:01:07.725 --> 0:01:11.045 For years, they were held up the picture of wholesome, 0:01:11.765 --> 0:01:17.365 god fearing family life, modest dresses, perfect manners, endless babies, 0:01:17.925 --> 0:01:22.965 and a home ruled by faith. But behind that image 0:01:23.045 --> 0:01:28.405 lay secrets, silence, and a system of control that dictated 0:01:28.725 --> 0:01:33.965 everything from how women spoke to what they wore. Amy 0:01:34.045 --> 0:01:36.925 dug A King grew up on the edges of that world, 0:01:37.085 --> 0:01:42.085 the only child in a sprawling family where obedience was 0:01:42.205 --> 0:01:46.565 prized above honesty. She appeared on the show as cousin 0:01:46.605 --> 0:01:51.085 Amy Crazy Cousin Amy in fact, loved by fans for 0:01:51.165 --> 0:01:55.365 her spark and humor, but privately she was beginning to 0:01:55.445 --> 0:01:59.765 see cracks in the facade, and when abuse, scandals, and 0:01:59.885 --> 0:02:04.805 hypocrisy within the family came to light, Amy made the 0:02:04.845 --> 0:02:08.565 painful choice to speak out and to build a life 0:02:08.925 --> 0:02:13.485 defied and by truth rather than fear. This is a 0:02:13.525 --> 0:02:17.205 conversation about what happens when you break away from a 0:02:17.245 --> 0:02:21.965 system that's been built on silence and find your own faith, 0:02:22.925 --> 0:02:26.885 build your own family, and find your own voice. On 0:02:26.925 --> 0:02:34.565 the other side, this is Amy Duggar King. I just 0:02:34.765 --> 0:02:36.525 finished your book off this morning. 0:02:36.805 --> 0:02:40.045 Oh, thank you so much. Okay, Kate, what did you 0:02:40.045 --> 0:02:40.605 think of it? 0:02:40.805 --> 0:02:44.205 Well, there's so much more to it than I was expecting, 0:02:44.205 --> 0:02:47.845 and there's so much more to your story. Yes, of course, 0:02:47.885 --> 0:02:50.765 like a lot of people, I knew you sort of vaguely, 0:02:51.685 --> 0:02:55.565 you know, through your connection with the nineteen in counting 0:02:56.085 --> 0:02:59.005 very good good genes in the Dugger family. By the way, 0:02:59.725 --> 0:03:01.925 how beautiful is everybody? 0:03:03.085 --> 0:03:07.965 Yes, everyone is very beautiful. Everyone is that we all 0:03:08.005 --> 0:03:12.125 have the same nose. And yeah, they're all very very 0:03:12.165 --> 0:03:14.085 handsome and beautiful, beautiful. 0:03:13.725 --> 0:03:15.365 People and beautiful eyes. 0:03:15.645 --> 0:03:16.445 Beautiful eyes. 0:03:16.565 --> 0:03:17.885 You got the green eyes? 0:03:18.005 --> 0:03:20.765 Oh I do? I have like chameleon eyes. They change 0:03:20.765 --> 0:03:22.325 with whatever color I'm wearing. 0:03:22.645 --> 0:03:26.565 Ah, but that is the only chameleon like aspect of you, 0:03:26.845 --> 0:03:30.725 Amy Duga King. It's very true because the rest of 0:03:30.765 --> 0:03:38.645 you is essentially very sure and uncompromising in certain truths 0:03:38.685 --> 0:03:39.965 and aspects of yourself. 0:03:39.965 --> 0:03:43.205 Would you agree, Yes, I one hundred percent agree with that. 0:03:43.365 --> 0:03:45.565 I you know, I wanted to be as real and 0:03:45.605 --> 0:03:48.565 as authentic as I possibly could in this book and 0:03:48.725 --> 0:03:51.605 just open up and share my heart. And what you 0:03:51.645 --> 0:03:54.085 see is what to get, you know. I mean my 0:03:54.205 --> 0:03:58.645 cat might pop up, I oh, my little boy. I 0:03:58.645 --> 0:04:02.085 mean it's real life. So yeah, I'm just I am 0:04:02.205 --> 0:04:05.205 so grateful to be here. I have seen Mama Mia 0:04:05.445 --> 0:04:08.725 before and I think it's I think it's just wonderful. 0:04:08.765 --> 0:04:12.645 So so your book, your book that you just referred to, 0:04:12.805 --> 0:04:15.285 Holy Disruptor, what's the full title of it. 0:04:15.485 --> 0:04:19.605 Fully Disruptor, Shattering the shiny facade and getting louder with 0:04:19.645 --> 0:04:20.885 the truth, right. 0:04:21.605 --> 0:04:27.485 Yes, now that's a huge concept. Yes, yes it is, 0:04:28.005 --> 0:04:31.565 and it was born from of course, people might not know. 0:04:31.725 --> 0:04:34.165 I was explaining this story to my husband when I 0:04:34.165 --> 0:04:37.005 was reading your book. He didn't know about the Douggers. 0:04:37.245 --> 0:04:40.085 He didn't know about nineteen in counting, he didn't even 0:04:40.085 --> 0:04:47.245 know about seventeen in counting, who were an enormous sensation 0:04:47.805 --> 0:04:53.205 in the kind of mid teens of this century on television, 0:04:53.405 --> 0:04:59.285 big TLC show and a huge Christian family literally huge 0:04:59.365 --> 0:05:03.525 nineteen kids. Huge. Yes, your aunt and uncle at the 0:05:03.565 --> 0:05:06.645 helm of that family, Michelle and Jimbob. 0:05:06.965 --> 0:05:07.365 Yes. 0:05:07.405 --> 0:05:11.565 And you came in and really gave the series a 0:05:11.565 --> 0:05:15.925 bit of a pep as cousin Amy, yeah, you with 0:05:16.005 --> 0:05:19.405 a cousin of the nineteen or crazy cousin. 0:05:19.445 --> 0:05:23.045 Crazy Yes, yeah, that was definitely a nickname. 0:05:23.445 --> 0:05:27.205 And they were part of this religion which I had 0:05:27.245 --> 0:05:30.525 to write down as well, because of course there's so 0:05:30.645 --> 0:05:37.005 many offshoots of religions, particularly in the States. The Institute 0:05:37.085 --> 0:05:42.365 in Basic Life Principles, What did that mean? That religion? 0:05:43.005 --> 0:05:44.925 How was it manifest? 0:05:45.685 --> 0:05:49.765 Basically it was just kind of a like a very 0:05:49.845 --> 0:05:53.925 closed system. It really promised like a very beautiful life. 0:05:54.245 --> 0:05:59.085 There's an umbrella, and whoever is under that umbrella as 0:05:59.085 --> 0:06:01.845 far as like your husband is under that umbrella, or 0:06:01.925 --> 0:06:04.565 like your the husband is the umbrella, it's God. And 0:06:04.645 --> 0:06:09.645 then they are over their wives and then over their 0:06:09.725 --> 0:06:12.645 children as well. And so it basically said, like, if 0:06:12.685 --> 0:06:16.205 you love God, if you're going to follow these principles 0:06:16.205 --> 0:06:18.765 that we have in this book and in this you know, 0:06:19.085 --> 0:06:23.005 throughout this entire I don't know, it's a whole different mindset, 0:06:23.165 --> 0:06:28.085 if you will, very very extra extra conservative and Christian Christian, 0:06:28.165 --> 0:06:29.605 but to the extreme. 0:06:29.845 --> 0:06:34.805 So modesty dressing, yes, yes, which means what for the 0:06:35.125 --> 0:06:37.525 for the women in particular, the women have. 0:06:37.725 --> 0:06:42.285 Many many rules dresses only or skirts. They have to 0:06:42.405 --> 0:06:45.085 cover up their kneecaps, they have to be full length, 0:06:45.685 --> 0:06:50.645 there can't be any dark makeup. They can't really express themselves. 0:06:50.685 --> 0:06:53.365 I'm not allowed to cut their hair. Yeah, they can't 0:06:53.365 --> 0:06:57.205 show their collarbone. Everything is very. 0:06:59.365 --> 0:07:01.565 Because the colarbine is above the boob. 0:07:03.285 --> 0:07:06.205 That is what that is about. Absolutely, and so yeah, 0:07:06.205 --> 0:07:08.885 it's just one of those things where the IBLP was 0:07:08.925 --> 0:07:13.165 definitely very much involved in every aspect of their life. 0:07:13.285 --> 0:07:16.605 Yes, and so they were the Duggers were this family 0:07:17.005 --> 0:07:21.565 that kept growing throughout their series. Yes, and America fell 0:07:21.605 --> 0:07:24.525 in love with them, so did a lot of the world. Yes, 0:07:24.805 --> 0:07:27.725 that was exposed to the show. And because they were 0:07:27.805 --> 0:07:36.445 this great, joyous, wholesome, very obedient. Yes, they seemed like 0:07:36.725 --> 0:07:38.085 a functional family. 0:07:38.405 --> 0:07:43.085 Yeah, there has been a divide, a large divide in 0:07:43.125 --> 0:07:45.485 our family given everything that's happened. 0:07:45.605 --> 0:07:50.565 Yeah, that is sad because you were such an integral 0:07:50.645 --> 0:07:53.885 part of that family and became an integral part of 0:07:53.925 --> 0:07:57.805 the show. You modestly describe yourself as sort of a 0:07:57.845 --> 0:08:00.845 cameo character, a side character, but you really brought a 0:08:00.845 --> 0:08:03.325 lot of life and fun to that show. 0:08:03.405 --> 0:08:04.725 Well, thank you, and. 0:08:04.645 --> 0:08:08.605 A counterpoint, I guess to a certain extent, because you 0:08:08.645 --> 0:08:11.045 were considered very worldly and wild. 0:08:11.805 --> 0:08:14.325 Yes, I was the one that they like, people would 0:08:14.325 --> 0:08:16.765 pray for my soul and when they would see me 0:08:16.885 --> 0:08:18.685 out in the world, they'd be like, we're praying for 0:08:18.725 --> 0:08:23.165 you to like find Jesus, and I'm like, this is great, 0:08:23.285 --> 0:08:26.365 Like that's crazy. You know. I definitely am a believer. 0:08:26.485 --> 0:08:29.045 It's something that is very dear to my heart. My 0:08:29.085 --> 0:08:32.325 faith is keeps me strong. I have survived because of 0:08:32.325 --> 0:08:35.885 my faith, and so yeah, it's just it's just interesting 0:08:36.565 --> 0:08:39.445 looking back, how many people prayed for my soul when 0:08:40.165 --> 0:08:41.365 my soul was secure. 0:08:41.645 --> 0:08:44.685 You know, it was by contrast to the rest of 0:08:44.725 --> 0:08:48.925 the duggers that you seemed so wild through the prism 0:08:49.005 --> 0:08:52.485 of the rest of the world, you also seemed like 0:08:52.565 --> 0:08:54.925 a modest woman of faith. 0:08:55.445 --> 0:08:58.765 Right, Yes, no, thank you for saying that. I definitely 0:08:59.045 --> 0:09:02.285 like that nickname in that title a little bit more. 0:09:03.565 --> 0:09:06.565 And the crazy kind of rubbed you up the wrong way, 0:09:06.645 --> 0:09:10.685 to the point where you approached your uncle, who was 0:09:10.725 --> 0:09:15.925 the patriarch of the family, and said, why do I 0:09:15.965 --> 0:09:18.045 have to be called crazy? Yes? 0:09:18.205 --> 0:09:21.245 Yeah, why is that my nickname doesn't really fit? 0:09:21.605 --> 0:09:22.685 And what did he say? 0:09:23.285 --> 0:09:27.765 He just basically said that, don't worry about it. It's 0:09:27.885 --> 0:09:31.365 just something fun. Just go with it. It won't matter, 0:09:32.085 --> 0:09:37.405 you know, just normal, I feel like normal dismissive type 0:09:37.405 --> 0:09:40.445 of comments, just kind of blew it off like it 0:09:40.485 --> 0:09:40.965 was nothing. 0:09:41.445 --> 0:09:44.725 Yes, but at that point, because you're part of this, 0:09:45.565 --> 0:09:48.685 you're also under the umbrella. You're not directly under the umbrella, 0:09:49.085 --> 0:09:52.365 but you've grown up with this belief system as well. 0:09:52.405 --> 0:09:54.645 You're very familiar with how the dog is operate. 0:09:54.845 --> 0:09:59.325 I'm very familiar with it. I never I was never 0:09:59.445 --> 0:10:02.405 really under an umbrella, if you will, but I was 0:10:02.925 --> 0:10:05.685 around it, and I you know, there was a couple 0:10:05.685 --> 0:10:08.525 of times that I felt very controlled by it. Yes 0:10:09.325 --> 0:10:12.925 in particular, I mean just in general when I would 0:10:12.965 --> 0:10:15.405 go over there, I would have to kind of change 0:10:15.645 --> 0:10:18.005 my persona. I couldn't really show the real me. 0:10:19.125 --> 0:10:19.325 You know. 0:10:19.365 --> 0:10:21.445 It was hard to connect with some of the girls 0:10:21.485 --> 0:10:24.485 and just some of my family members because they didn't 0:10:24.525 --> 0:10:28.765 know like the things that teenagers struggle with or even 0:10:28.885 --> 0:10:31.445 you know, young adults struggle with, because they were very 0:10:31.805 --> 0:10:34.885 sheltered and just I think, kind of hidden from the 0:10:34.885 --> 0:10:36.885 world in a lot of a lot of ways. And 0:10:36.925 --> 0:10:40.325 I understand about protecting children. We should do that, we should, 0:10:40.565 --> 0:10:43.045 but at some point I feel like we have to, 0:10:43.285 --> 0:10:45.685 you know, when age appropriate. We had to talk to 0:10:45.725 --> 0:10:49.165 them about the real struggles, the real darkness of this world, 0:10:49.645 --> 0:10:52.445 and it was just something that you know, as you know, 0:10:52.485 --> 0:10:55.925 you read my book, Kate, and so there was just 0:10:55.965 --> 0:11:00.085 a lot of hidden pain that I was experiencing and 0:11:00.085 --> 0:11:02.645 that I never got a chance to really speak to 0:11:02.645 --> 0:11:05.325 my cousins about it because you know, they didn't know 0:11:05.365 --> 0:11:07.885 that kind of pain, which is incredible that they didn't. 0:11:08.165 --> 0:11:09.965 But at the same time, they were having their own 0:11:10.005 --> 0:11:11.125 pain that I didn't know about. 0:11:11.605 --> 0:11:14.565 Well, yes, and in fact a lot of them didn't 0:11:14.605 --> 0:11:21.445 even know substantially or tangibly what that pain was. But 0:11:21.605 --> 0:11:25.725 children are, you know, like insects to a certain extent 0:11:25.725 --> 0:11:28.445 with antenna. Even though a lot of the world is 0:11:28.805 --> 0:11:32.965 denied to them, the vibrations of them transmit back into 0:11:33.005 --> 0:11:33.965 them what is going on. 0:11:34.525 --> 0:11:37.125 They're very perceptive, very yes. 0:11:37.605 --> 0:11:42.205 And because you're a similar age to the older Dugger children, 0:11:43.205 --> 0:11:46.125 and of course there were so many younger ones. At 0:11:46.165 --> 0:11:51.205 what point did you become aware that there was some 0:11:51.565 --> 0:11:53.005 darkness in the family. 0:11:53.565 --> 0:11:57.605 There were several instances that happened, and every time that 0:11:57.725 --> 0:12:02.205 something would happen, I would literally go to my uncle 0:12:02.405 --> 0:12:06.965 and be like, hey, I saw this, Like I've got 0:12:07.045 --> 0:12:10.125 to tell you, this is a big deal. Was there 0:12:10.165 --> 0:12:13.965 was porn found on a computer at one point, and 0:12:14.045 --> 0:12:16.965 it was way before any scandals or anything like that happened. 0:12:16.805 --> 0:12:19.285 Right, So it was like a year before anything happened. 0:12:19.285 --> 0:12:23.365 You've got a second hand computer, yeah, from Josh Duga. 0:12:23.445 --> 0:12:25.845 Yes, yeah, my dad actually got it from him. That 0:12:25.965 --> 0:12:29.845 was years ago, years, years and years ago before anything 0:12:29.925 --> 0:12:33.125 came out and I want to make that very perfectly clear, 0:12:33.525 --> 0:12:37.205 and yeah, it was just I was mistaken. My son never, 0:12:37.405 --> 0:12:40.365 if I can remember correctly in my own opinion, he 0:12:40.485 --> 0:12:43.885 basically said like, I, you know, my son never has 0:12:43.925 --> 0:12:47.445 a problem with dad, and you're mistaken, and there isn't 0:12:47.485 --> 0:12:48.045 a problem. 0:12:48.445 --> 0:12:51.685 So Josh Duga, for people who don't know, was the 0:12:51.725 --> 0:12:58.165 eldest of the Dugga children, the eldest son. And at 0:12:58.165 --> 0:13:00.405 one point, this is the way that his parents have 0:13:00.525 --> 0:13:03.285 told the story, he came to them when he was 0:13:03.445 --> 0:13:08.645 like twelve, and he said that he had been inappropriately 0:13:08.765 --> 0:13:12.565 touching at this point, I think two of his sisters 0:13:12.885 --> 0:13:16.125 while they were asleep, they didn't know, over their clothes, 0:13:16.205 --> 0:13:21.685 over the blankets or whatever. So the parents sent him 0:13:21.685 --> 0:13:28.725 to an affiliated Bible sort of rehabilitation center. Obviously, there 0:13:28.765 --> 0:13:30.125 was a lot of praying, There was a lot of 0:13:30.165 --> 0:13:33.605 whatever they say that they thought the situation to be 0:13:33.685 --> 0:13:36.605 dealt with. He returned to the family, they told the 0:13:36.645 --> 0:13:38.685 girls about it. The girls had no idea that it 0:13:38.685 --> 0:13:42.045 had even happened. When Josh came back to the family 0:13:42.085 --> 0:13:46.365 after six months away or whatever, the girls said they 0:13:46.565 --> 0:13:48.765 could tell that he was a different person. They thought 0:13:48.805 --> 0:13:52.845 it was done with. But Amy, it wasn't done with, 0:13:53.165 --> 0:13:54.685 was it not? 0:13:54.805 --> 0:13:57.685 In my opinion, no, ma'am. 0:13:57.725 --> 0:14:01.565 So then there was a re occurrence of inappropriate behavior, 0:14:02.925 --> 0:14:08.205 and then the Duggers let the police know he had 0:14:08.205 --> 0:14:10.565 a record, but because he as a juvenile, that record 0:14:10.605 --> 0:14:14.125 was supposed to be sealed. The girls went to the police. 0:14:14.285 --> 0:14:16.725 They went to the police, but the police officer that 0:14:17.725 --> 0:14:21.605 dealt with the crime in the situation turned out to 0:14:21.725 --> 0:14:25.165 be a predator himself and is now in prison for 0:14:25.285 --> 0:14:26.685 the same things that Josh is. 0:14:26.885 --> 0:14:31.645 That's right, for fifty seven years. Huge sentence, huge sentence. 0:14:32.485 --> 0:14:35.045 So the girls then turned out that there were five 0:14:35.085 --> 0:14:38.725 of them, four of the girls in the family and 0:14:39.405 --> 0:14:44.285 a babysitter. They went to the police. They also made 0:14:44.285 --> 0:14:46.125 statements that was all supposed to be part of this 0:14:46.285 --> 0:14:49.605 sealed because they were all juveniles, it was supposed to 0:14:49.645 --> 0:14:52.885 be the records were supposed to be sealed. Then, as 0:14:52.925 --> 0:15:00.005 the show is hitting Max's popularity, somebody leaks those sealed 0:15:00.125 --> 0:15:07.645 records and the whole Dugger world, I imagine, turns topsy turvy. 0:15:08.085 --> 0:15:14.805 I think it completely collapsed. It's an empire that it's 0:15:14.885 --> 0:15:18.525 just so sad. It's something that I can't even wrap 0:15:18.565 --> 0:15:22.565 my head around it till this day. But I wrote 0:15:22.605 --> 0:15:27.245 Holy Disruptor to kind of share the backstory. I think 0:15:27.325 --> 0:15:29.925 everybody knows, or a lot of people know, especially in 0:15:29.965 --> 0:15:32.845 the States. Maybe in Australia hopefully so, but a lot 0:15:32.845 --> 0:15:35.525 of people know. I think the front scandals and the 0:15:35.565 --> 0:15:39.085 headlines and all of that. But what people don't know 0:15:39.245 --> 0:15:44.365 is what I've written in Holy Disruptor. It's my actual 0:15:44.845 --> 0:15:49.045 life story, yes, and the realness of it, of just 0:15:49.125 --> 0:15:51.365 the conversations and the things that's gone on in my 0:15:51.405 --> 0:15:54.965 life that no one ever knew. And it's the lies 0:15:55.085 --> 0:15:57.645 told were the I mean, I literally in my book 0:15:57.645 --> 0:15:59.885 have a list of lies that were told to me. 0:16:00.445 --> 0:16:02.365 And it's not the fact that I'm trying to call 0:16:02.405 --> 0:16:07.485 out or like you know, shun my family. No, it 0:16:07.565 --> 0:16:10.205 is absolutely the saddest thing to me that I have 0:16:10.365 --> 0:16:13.525 to put boundaries in place like this. I wish to 0:16:13.605 --> 0:16:14.965 God I didn't have to do this. 0:16:15.405 --> 0:16:22.885 So to explain your relationship your mum, Deanna, your precious mother, Yes, 0:16:23.605 --> 0:16:26.445 is the sister of Jim Bob who was the father 0:16:26.565 --> 0:16:31.285 of the nineteen And what you've written about in your 0:16:31.325 --> 0:16:36.925 book so eloquently and very movingly actually is your own 0:16:37.165 --> 0:16:45.525 story of generational trauma. Yeah, trauma, pain in some cases 0:16:45.565 --> 0:16:51.965 almost persecution, dysfunction, abuse. 0:16:52.485 --> 0:16:57.445 Cruelty, financial abuse. Right, there's a lot in the book. 0:16:58.645 --> 0:17:01.805 It's like I can smile about it now, I think 0:17:01.845 --> 0:17:04.725 because I've healed from so much. You know, I'm not 0:17:04.765 --> 0:17:07.125 making light of the situation. I'm not making light of 0:17:07.125 --> 0:17:08.925 what is in the book, because there is some deep 0:17:09.005 --> 0:17:13.565 and dark and awful things in the book. But you're 0:17:13.605 --> 0:17:17.565 seeing a healed version of amy where I can speak 0:17:17.605 --> 0:17:21.925 openly and just smile from ear to ear knowing that like, 0:17:22.245 --> 0:17:24.325 I don't have to live that way anymore. You know. 0:17:24.605 --> 0:17:27.365 Well, it's very interesting because, of course, a well known 0:17:27.365 --> 0:17:29.725 Bible scripture is the Truth will set you free. 0:17:30.245 --> 0:17:33.285 So true. It really is so true. It has I 0:17:33.325 --> 0:17:38.925 feel a thousand times lighter by sharing my story. And 0:17:39.605 --> 0:17:43.365 I literally said, I don't care about New York Times bestseller. 0:17:43.645 --> 0:17:45.885 That's not why I did it. I did it to 0:17:45.925 --> 0:17:48.805 help hearts. I did it to connect with women and 0:17:48.845 --> 0:17:53.045 people all over the world that have experienced all kinds 0:17:53.085 --> 0:17:58.125 of abuse and gas lighting and narcissistic abuse and love 0:17:58.245 --> 0:18:02.165 bombing and flying monkeys and all the all the terms 0:18:02.325 --> 0:18:06.285 used that are that are so important to know about 0:18:06.405 --> 0:18:10.325 narcissistic people. It's just so sad that people use it 0:18:10.765 --> 0:18:14.565 in the name of Jesus. People hide under the mask 0:18:15.045 --> 0:18:17.725 of Jesus, and yet they can hurt little ones, and 0:18:17.765 --> 0:18:20.525 they can lie and steal and cheat and do all 0:18:20.565 --> 0:18:21.045 these things. 0:18:21.045 --> 0:18:26.485 It's horrible when you're talking amy about narcissistic people, who 0:18:26.525 --> 0:18:32.405 are you referring to in particular your own family and then. 0:18:32.205 --> 0:18:36.325 Yeah, my own family and my extended family. I mean, 0:18:36.765 --> 0:18:39.725 and it shows I wouldn't I don't want to call 0:18:39.765 --> 0:18:44.245 out names, but it literally shows you know, what you 0:18:44.285 --> 0:18:47.045 put out in the world, what you put, what you say, 0:18:47.085 --> 0:18:51.685 what you do, your reputation matters. And when it's not 0:18:52.245 --> 0:18:55.765 with your words and your actions aren't matching up, that's 0:18:55.805 --> 0:19:00.165 a huge problem. That's a huge character flaw in a person. 0:19:00.845 --> 0:19:03.725 And I just think it's really important to share the 0:19:03.805 --> 0:19:07.325 backstories as to why. You know, one minute, we're on 0:19:07.365 --> 0:19:09.365 a show and everything's great. In the next minute and 0:19:09.405 --> 0:19:13.125 it's nowhere to be found and you know all the things. 0:19:13.205 --> 0:19:15.485 And so for me, I was like, Wow, how can 0:19:15.525 --> 0:19:19.685 my story connect with people around the world? And I 0:19:19.725 --> 0:19:21.805 can literally like be like, how can you be a 0:19:21.845 --> 0:19:25.125 holy disruptor? In your own life, how can you disrupt 0:19:25.205 --> 0:19:29.645 the toxic cycles that are in your own family? And 0:19:30.045 --> 0:19:31.125 that's what I wrote about. 0:19:31.485 --> 0:19:34.325 And at what point did you decide that you were 0:19:34.405 --> 0:19:37.565 going to write a book, Because it's very interesting that 0:19:37.685 --> 0:19:40.645 from that side of the family, I gather that there 0:19:41.245 --> 0:19:42.885 you have a relationship with Jill. 0:19:43.645 --> 0:19:45.845 You, Yeah, she's wonderful. 0:19:45.965 --> 0:19:49.565 She's the only daughter that you're you have contact with still. 0:19:50.445 --> 0:19:54.485 Jill and I have a very healthy cousinship. Her boys 0:19:54.525 --> 0:19:57.845 come over, they've they've stayed the night. We just have 0:19:57.925 --> 0:20:01.165 such a great relationship and we connect our stories and 0:20:01.725 --> 0:20:05.765 she's just such a wonderful person. The other girls I 0:20:05.805 --> 0:20:08.165 haven't spoken to in a really long time. I have 0:20:08.285 --> 0:20:11.845 reached out a Ginger couple of times, But you know, 0:20:12.005 --> 0:20:15.725 I understand that they have to be they think they 0:20:15.765 --> 0:20:19.205 think they need to be, in my opinion, loyal to 0:20:19.245 --> 0:20:23.085 the family name, and that they still have to like 0:20:23.165 --> 0:20:25.725 honor their parents and all of that. And I just 0:20:26.165 --> 0:20:29.285 hope someday that they all, all of them, as a whole, 0:20:29.685 --> 0:20:32.725 will think for themselves and outside of maybe what they've 0:20:32.725 --> 0:20:35.925 been taught, I think there's a whole lot that they 0:20:36.165 --> 0:20:39.725 probably still need to learn and heal from in my opinion. 0:20:39.685 --> 0:20:44.125 Sure, because they brothers gone to gile, he's in prison. 0:20:44.965 --> 0:20:49.565 The family are still have still aside from Jill, are 0:20:49.605 --> 0:20:52.045 there any others they seem to have closed ranks? 0:20:52.165 --> 0:20:55.325 Yeah, I'm not really sure of honestly who all is. 0:20:55.685 --> 0:20:58.085 But none of them really speak out loud, you know. 0:20:58.125 --> 0:21:00.965 I'm Jill Do's Jill has her book is incredible. 0:21:01.245 --> 0:21:04.085 So has she stepped out from under the umbrella? Oh? 0:21:04.165 --> 0:21:06.685 Yeah, there's no umbrella. She uses it only for the rain. 0:21:07.565 --> 0:21:08.445 Yeah. 0:21:08.685 --> 0:21:11.285 She's her own person and I love to see it. 0:21:11.845 --> 0:21:16.365 She's just wonderful and boho bohemian and you can just 0:21:16.405 --> 0:21:20.845 tell she's so she's so happy, she's so happy, and 0:21:20.885 --> 0:21:22.045 I just I love that for her. 0:21:24.005 --> 0:21:28.205 After the break, Amy recalls the moment she saw the 0:21:28.405 --> 0:21:33.725 truth about her family on the front cover of a magazine. 0:21:36.165 --> 0:21:40.365 It's interesting because I think often when you're raised in 0:21:40.405 --> 0:21:44.165 a religious family, which I also was, Okay, you only 0:21:44.245 --> 0:21:46.285 know the normal that you grow up with. And all 0:21:46.365 --> 0:21:48.925 children are like that anyway, aren't they to a certain extent? 0:21:49.045 --> 0:21:50.565 Oh? Yeah for sure. 0:21:51.645 --> 0:21:57.245 At what point did you start to think what I've 0:21:57.525 --> 0:22:02.325 regarded as normal is probably irregular? 0:22:03.525 --> 0:22:08.845 Good question. With the scandal started happening when the first 0:22:08.845 --> 0:22:10.845 one blew our minds? 0:22:11.125 --> 0:22:13.285 So which was which was the first one? Was that 0:22:13.365 --> 0:22:15.765 when it was printed on the cover of the magazine, 0:22:16.285 --> 0:22:18.805 when it was you saw Walmart. 0:22:18.485 --> 0:22:21.245 That I saw it in Walmart, and that moment, I 0:22:21.485 --> 0:22:27.685 was just like, what, Like, what is this? This could 0:22:27.725 --> 0:22:30.245 not be true. There's no way this can be true. 0:22:30.485 --> 0:22:33.965 Imagine tell me about that, Die Amy, tell me about 0:22:33.965 --> 0:22:34.725 where you were, And. 0:22:35.405 --> 0:22:38.005 Yeah, I was. I don't even I honestly don't even 0:22:38.005 --> 0:22:40.245 know what I was doing at Walmart. It's been so 0:22:40.365 --> 0:22:45.925 long ago, getting some groceries, minding my own business, you know, 0:22:46.245 --> 0:22:50.845 and just I don't really pick up magazines normally. But 0:22:50.925 --> 0:22:54.005 when you see a house that you have gone to 0:22:54.365 --> 0:22:58.965 a million plus times on a front cover with the 0:22:59.005 --> 0:23:04.165 words House of Horrors and big bold letters printed on it, 0:23:04.325 --> 0:23:09.605 you stop in your tracks and you go, what is this? 0:23:10.325 --> 0:23:13.045 Oh my gosh, And I knew something was off. My 0:23:13.525 --> 0:23:18.085 heart was pounding, I was like sweating. I had tears 0:23:18.085 --> 0:23:20.965 in my eyes. People probably thought I was crazy. At Walmart, 0:23:21.045 --> 0:23:25.485 you know, I'm just staring at this magazine title and 0:23:26.445 --> 0:23:29.965 this cover, and I just I was so broken hearted, 0:23:30.005 --> 0:23:32.045 and at the same time, I didn't want to believe it. 0:23:32.365 --> 0:23:35.885 But when you saw that title House of Horrors, it 0:23:35.965 --> 0:23:40.005 must have brought back to you the computer it did. 0:23:40.445 --> 0:23:42.885 What was your first thought? Did you know straight away 0:23:43.405 --> 0:23:45.885 that it was something to do with Josh? Like, how 0:23:45.885 --> 0:23:49.845 are you processing it? I have the knowledge that you had. 0:23:49.565 --> 0:23:52.845 I honestly didn't. I didn't want to go there, right. 0:23:52.965 --> 0:23:55.285 I always wanted to believe the good in people. And 0:23:55.365 --> 0:23:59.125 I'm not necessarily naive, especially not anymore, but I used 0:23:59.125 --> 0:24:02.245 to just believe what I was told. So I asked 0:24:02.245 --> 0:24:05.165 my grandma, I asked my mom. They had no idea 0:24:05.205 --> 0:24:08.405 what it was, you know, my mom or my grandma 0:24:08.485 --> 0:24:11.525 was given some kind of Oh they were they were 0:24:11.565 --> 0:24:14.565 just camping, and he and Josh went and scared the 0:24:14.605 --> 0:24:17.645 girls and got a little too close, you know, And 0:24:17.685 --> 0:24:19.485 I was like, what that doesn't make sense. Why is 0:24:19.485 --> 0:24:22.525 that a headline? And then you're right, I did. I 0:24:22.565 --> 0:24:25.885 started to think about the things that I tried to 0:24:25.925 --> 0:24:28.725