1
00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:13,085
Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

2
00:00:13,885 --> 00:00:16,885
Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

3
00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:19,485
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. I didn't want to

4
00:00:19,485 --> 00:00:21,765
Speaker 2: feel like a murderer. It's not like, you know, it's

5
00:00:21,805 --> 00:00:24,405
Speaker 2: not like, oh, like I'm this warrior, Like how come

6
00:00:24,445 --> 00:00:25,205
Speaker 2: you didn't do it to me?

7
00:00:25,445 --> 00:00:25,645
Speaker 1: You know?

8
00:00:26,045 --> 00:00:31,205
Speaker 2: But I wondered, because why not me? Why not? And

9
00:00:31,285 --> 00:00:34,245
Speaker 2: I wanted to know because my personality is just so

10
00:00:34,445 --> 00:00:38,325
Speaker 2: different than the girls. And he looked at me, and

11
00:00:38,925 --> 00:00:40,845
Speaker 2: I mean it took foreverham to him to look up.

12
00:00:41,125 --> 00:00:44,845
Speaker 2: It wasn't immediate. He looked at me and with like

13
00:00:44,885 --> 00:00:48,565
Speaker 2: a really creepy smile, he said, I knew better.

14
00:00:50,805 --> 00:00:55,485
Speaker 1: Hello, I'm kateline Brook. Today's guest has lived through something

15
00:00:55,525 --> 00:00:58,485
Speaker 1: most of us have only ever watched from a distance.

16
00:00:59,165 --> 00:01:02,765
Speaker 1: You might know the name Daga, the American family made

17
00:01:02,765 --> 00:01:07,005
Speaker 1: famous by the tl SEE reality series Nineteen Kids and Counting.

18
00:01:07,725 --> 00:01:11,045
Speaker 1: For years, they were held up the picture of wholesome,

19
00:01:11,765 --> 00:01:17,365
Speaker 1: god fearing family life, modest dresses, perfect manners, endless babies,

20
00:01:17,925 --> 00:01:22,965
Speaker 1: and a home ruled by faith. But behind that image

21
00:01:23,045 --> 00:01:28,405
Speaker 1: lay secrets, silence, and a system of control that dictated

22
00:01:28,725 --> 00:01:33,965
Speaker 1: everything from how women spoke to what they wore. Amy

23
00:01:34,045 --> 00:01:36,925
Speaker 1: dug A King grew up on the edges of that world,

24
00:01:37,085 --> 00:01:42,085
Speaker 1: the only child in a sprawling family where obedience was

25
00:01:42,205 --> 00:01:46,565
Speaker 1: prized above honesty. She appeared on the show as cousin

26
00:01:46,605 --> 00:01:51,085
Speaker 1: Amy Crazy Cousin Amy in fact, loved by fans for

27
00:01:51,165 --> 00:01:55,365
Speaker 1: her spark and humor, but privately she was beginning to

28
00:01:55,445 --> 00:01:59,765
Speaker 1: see cracks in the facade, and when abuse, scandals, and

29
00:01:59,885 --> 00:02:04,805
Speaker 1: hypocrisy within the family came to light, Amy made the

30
00:02:04,845 --> 00:02:08,565
Speaker 1: painful choice to speak out and to build a life

31
00:02:08,925 --> 00:02:13,485
Speaker 1: defied and by truth rather than fear. This is a

32
00:02:13,525 --> 00:02:17,205
Speaker 1: conversation about what happens when you break away from a

33
00:02:17,245 --> 00:02:21,965
Speaker 1: system that's been built on silence and find your own faith,

34
00:02:22,925 --> 00:02:26,885
Speaker 1: build your own family, and find your own voice. On

35
00:02:26,925 --> 00:02:34,565
Speaker 1: the other side, this is Amy Duggar King. I just

36
00:02:34,765 --> 00:02:36,525
Speaker 1: finished your book off this morning.

37
00:02:36,805 --> 00:02:40,045
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much. Okay, Kate, what did you

38
00:02:40,045 --> 00:02:40,605
Speaker 2: think of it?

39
00:02:40,805 --> 00:02:44,205
Speaker 1: Well, there's so much more to it than I was expecting,

40
00:02:44,205 --> 00:02:47,845
Speaker 1: and there's so much more to your story. Yes, of course,

41
00:02:47,885 --> 00:02:50,765
Speaker 1: like a lot of people, I knew you sort of vaguely,

42
00:02:51,685 --> 00:02:55,565
Speaker 1: you know, through your connection with the nineteen in counting

43
00:02:56,085 --> 00:02:59,005
Speaker 1: very good good genes in the Dugger family. By the way,

44
00:02:59,725 --> 00:03:01,925
Speaker 1: how beautiful is everybody?

45
00:03:03,085 --> 00:03:07,965
Speaker 2: Yes, everyone is very beautiful. Everyone is that we all

46
00:03:08,005 --> 00:03:12,125
Speaker 2: have the same nose. And yeah, they're all very very

47
00:03:12,165 --> 00:03:14,085
Speaker 2: handsome and beautiful, beautiful.

48
00:03:13,725 --> 00:03:15,365
Speaker 1: People and beautiful eyes.

49
00:03:15,645 --> 00:03:16,445
Speaker 2: Beautiful eyes.

50
00:03:16,565 --> 00:03:17,885
Speaker 1: You got the green eyes?

51
00:03:18,005 --> 00:03:20,765
Speaker 2: Oh I do? I have like chameleon eyes. They change

52
00:03:20,765 --> 00:03:22,325
Speaker 2: with whatever color I'm wearing.

53
00:03:22,645 --> 00:03:26,565
Speaker 1: Ah, but that is the only chameleon like aspect of you,

54
00:03:26,845 --> 00:03:30,725
Speaker 1: Amy Duga King. It's very true because the rest of

55
00:03:30,765 --> 00:03:38,645
Speaker 1: you is essentially very sure and uncompromising in certain truths

56
00:03:38,685 --> 00:03:39,965
Speaker 1: and aspects of yourself.

57
00:03:39,965 --> 00:03:43,205
Speaker 2: Would you agree, Yes, I one hundred percent agree with that.

58
00:03:43,365 --> 00:03:45,565
Speaker 2: I you know, I wanted to be as real and

59
00:03:45,605 --> 00:03:48,565
Speaker 2: as authentic as I possibly could in this book and

60
00:03:48,725 --> 00:03:51,605
Speaker 2: just open up and share my heart. And what you

61
00:03:51,645 --> 00:03:54,085
Speaker 2: see is what to get, you know. I mean my

62
00:03:54,205 --> 00:03:58,645
Speaker 2: cat might pop up, I oh, my little boy. I

63
00:03:58,645 --> 00:04:02,085
Speaker 2: mean it's real life. So yeah, I'm just I am

64
00:04:02,205 --> 00:04:05,205
Speaker 2: so grateful to be here. I have seen Mama Mia

65
00:04:05,445 --> 00:04:08,725
Speaker 2: before and I think it's I think it's just wonderful.

66
00:04:08,765 --> 00:04:12,645
Speaker 1: So so your book, your book that you just referred to,

67
00:04:12,805 --> 00:04:15,285
Speaker 1: Holy Disruptor, what's the full title of it.

68
00:04:15,485 --> 00:04:19,605
Speaker 2: Fully Disruptor, Shattering the shiny facade and getting louder with

69
00:04:19,645 --> 00:04:20,885
Speaker 2: the truth, right.

70
00:04:21,605 --> 00:04:27,485
Speaker 1: Yes, now that's a huge concept. Yes, yes it is,

71
00:04:28,005 --> 00:04:31,565
Speaker 1: and it was born from of course, people might not know.

72
00:04:31,725 --> 00:04:34,165
Speaker 1: I was explaining this story to my husband when I

73
00:04:34,165 --> 00:04:37,005
Speaker 1: was reading your book. He didn't know about the Douggers.

74
00:04:37,245 --> 00:04:40,085
Speaker 1: He didn't know about nineteen in counting, he didn't even

75
00:04:40,085 --> 00:04:47,245
Speaker 1: know about seventeen in counting, who were an enormous sensation

76
00:04:47,805 --> 00:04:53,205
Speaker 1: in the kind of mid teens of this century on television,

77
00:04:53,405 --> 00:04:59,285
Speaker 1: big TLC show and a huge Christian family literally huge

78
00:04:59,365 --> 00:05:03,525
Speaker 1: nineteen kids. Huge. Yes, your aunt and uncle at the

79
00:05:03,565 --> 00:05:06,645
Speaker 1: helm of that family, Michelle and Jimbob.

80
00:05:06,965 --> 00:05:07,365
Speaker 2: Yes.

81
00:05:07,405 --> 00:05:11,565
Speaker 1: And you came in and really gave the series a

82
00:05:11,565 --> 00:05:15,925
Speaker 1: bit of a pep as cousin Amy, yeah, you with

83
00:05:16,005 --> 00:05:19,405
Speaker 1: a cousin of the nineteen or crazy cousin.

84
00:05:19,445 --> 00:05:23,045
Speaker 2: Crazy Yes, yeah, that was definitely a nickname.

85
00:05:23,445 --> 00:05:27,205
Speaker 1: And they were part of this religion which I had

86
00:05:27,245 --> 00:05:30,525
Speaker 1: to write down as well, because of course there's so

87
00:05:30,645 --> 00:05:37,005
Speaker 1: many offshoots of religions, particularly in the States. The Institute

88
00:05:37,085 --> 00:05:42,365
Speaker 1: in Basic Life Principles, What did that mean? That religion?

89
00:05:43,005 --> 00:05:44,925
Speaker 1: How was it manifest?

90
00:05:45,685 --> 00:05:49,765
Speaker 2: Basically it was just kind of a like a very

91
00:05:49,845 --> 00:05:53,925
Speaker 2: closed system. It really promised like a very beautiful life.

92
00:05:54,245 --> 00:05:59,085
Speaker 2: There's an umbrella, and whoever is under that umbrella as

93
00:05:59,085 --> 00:06:01,845
Speaker 2: far as like your husband is under that umbrella, or

94
00:06:01,925 --> 00:06:04,565
Speaker 2: like your the husband is the umbrella, it's God. And

95
00:06:04,645 --> 00:06:09,645
Speaker 2: then they are over their wives and then over their

96
00:06:09,725 --> 00:06:12,645
Speaker 2: children as well. And so it basically said, like, if

97
00:06:12,685 --> 00:06:16,205
Speaker 2: you love God, if you're going to follow these principles

98
00:06:16,205 --> 00:06:18,765
Speaker 2: that we have in this book and in this you know,

99
00:06:19,085 --> 00:06:23,005
Speaker 2: throughout this entire I don't know, it's a whole different mindset,

100
00:06:23,165 --> 00:06:28,085
Speaker 2: if you will, very very extra extra conservative and Christian Christian,

101
00:06:28,165 --> 00:06:29,605
Speaker 2: but to the extreme.

102
00:06:29,845 --> 00:06:34,805
Speaker 1: So modesty dressing, yes, yes, which means what for the

103
00:06:35,125 --> 00:06:37,525
Speaker 1: for the women in particular, the women have.

104
00:06:37,725 --> 00:06:42,285
Speaker 2: Many many rules dresses only or skirts. They have to

105
00:06:42,405 --> 00:06:45,085
Speaker 2: cover up their kneecaps, they have to be full length,

106
00:06:45,685 --> 00:06:50,645
Speaker 2: there can't be any dark makeup. They can't really express themselves.

107
00:06:50,685 --> 00:06:53,365
Speaker 2: I'm not allowed to cut their hair. Yeah, they can't

108
00:06:53,365 --> 00:06:57,205
Speaker 2: show their collarbone. Everything is very.

109
00:06:59,365 --> 00:07:01,565
Speaker 1: Because the colarbine is above the boob.

110
00:07:03,285 --> 00:07:06,205
Speaker 2: That is what that is about. Absolutely, and so yeah,

111
00:07:06,205 --> 00:07:08,885
Speaker 2: it's just one of those things where the IBLP was

112
00:07:08,925 --> 00:07:13,165
Speaker 2: definitely very much involved in every aspect of their life.

113
00:07:13,285 --> 00:07:16,605
Speaker 1: Yes, and so they were the Duggers were this family

114
00:07:17,005 --> 00:07:21,565
Speaker 1: that kept growing throughout their series. Yes, and America fell

115
00:07:21,605 --> 00:07:24,525
Speaker 1: in love with them, so did a lot of the world. Yes,

116
00:07:24,805 --> 00:07:27,725
Speaker 1: that was exposed to the show. And because they were

117
00:07:27,805 --> 00:07:36,445
Speaker 1: this great, joyous, wholesome, very obedient. Yes, they seemed like

118
00:07:36,725 --> 00:07:38,085
Speaker 1: a functional family.

119
00:07:38,405 --> 00:07:43,085
Speaker 2: Yeah, there has been a divide, a large divide in

120
00:07:43,125 --> 00:07:45,485
Speaker 2: our family given everything that's happened.

121
00:07:45,605 --> 00:07:50,565
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is sad because you were such an integral

122
00:07:50,645 --> 00:07:53,885
Speaker 1: part of that family and became an integral part of

123
00:07:53,925 --> 00:07:57,805
Speaker 1: the show. You modestly describe yourself as sort of a

124
00:07:57,845 --> 00:08:00,845
Speaker 1: cameo character, a side character, but you really brought a

125
00:08:00,845 --> 00:08:03,325
Speaker 1: lot of life and fun to that show.

126
00:08:03,405 --> 00:08:04,725
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, and.

127
00:08:04,645 --> 00:08:08,605
Speaker 1: A counterpoint, I guess to a certain extent, because you

128
00:08:08,645 --> 00:08:11,045
Speaker 1: were considered very worldly and wild.

129
00:08:11,805 --> 00:08:14,325
Speaker 2: Yes, I was the one that they like, people would

130
00:08:14,325 --> 00:08:16,765
Speaker 2: pray for my soul and when they would see me

131
00:08:16,885 --> 00:08:18,685
Speaker 2: out in the world, they'd be like, we're praying for

132
00:08:18,725 --> 00:08:23,165
Speaker 2: you to like find Jesus, and I'm like, this is great,

133
00:08:23,285 --> 00:08:26,365
Speaker 2: Like that's crazy. You know. I definitely am a believer.

134
00:08:26,485 --> 00:08:29,045
Speaker 2: It's something that is very dear to my heart. My

135
00:08:29,085 --> 00:08:32,325
Speaker 2: faith is keeps me strong. I have survived because of

136
00:08:32,325 --> 00:08:35,885
Speaker 2: my faith, and so yeah, it's just it's just interesting

137
00:08:36,565 --> 00:08:39,445
Speaker 2: looking back, how many people prayed for my soul when

138
00:08:40,165 --> 00:08:41,365
Speaker 2: my soul was secure.

139
00:08:41,645 --> 00:08:44,685
Speaker 1: You know, it was by contrast to the rest of

140
00:08:44,725 --> 00:08:48,925
Speaker 1: the duggers that you seemed so wild through the prism

141
00:08:49,005 --> 00:08:52,485
Speaker 1: of the rest of the world, you also seemed like

142
00:08:52,565 --> 00:08:54,925
Speaker 1: a modest woman of faith.

143
00:08:55,445 --> 00:08:58,765
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, no, thank you for saying that. I definitely

144
00:08:59,045 --> 00:09:02,285
Speaker 2: like that nickname in that title a little bit more.

145
00:09:03,565 --> 00:09:06,565
Speaker 1: And the crazy kind of rubbed you up the wrong way,

146
00:09:06,645 --> 00:09:10,685
Speaker 1: to the point where you approached your uncle, who was

147
00:09:10,725 --> 00:09:15,925
Speaker 1: the patriarch of the family, and said, why do I

148
00:09:15,965 --> 00:09:18,045
Speaker 1: have to be called crazy? Yes?

149
00:09:18,205 --> 00:09:21,245
Speaker 2: Yeah, why is that my nickname doesn't really fit?

150
00:09:21,605 --> 00:09:22,685
Speaker 1: And what did he say?

151
00:09:23,285 --> 00:09:27,765
Speaker 2: He just basically said that, don't worry about it. It's

152
00:09:27,885 --> 00:09:31,365
Speaker 2: just something fun. Just go with it. It won't matter,

153
00:09:32,085 --> 00:09:37,405
Speaker 2: you know, just normal, I feel like normal dismissive type

154
00:09:37,405 --> 00:09:40,445
Speaker 2: of comments, just kind of blew it off like it

155
00:09:40,485 --> 00:09:40,965
Speaker 2: was nothing.

156
00:09:41,445 --> 00:09:44,725
Speaker 1: Yes, but at that point, because you're part of this,

157
00:09:45,565 --> 00:09:48,685
Speaker 1: you're also under the umbrella. You're not directly under the umbrella,

158
00:09:49,085 --> 00:09:52,365
Speaker 1: but you've grown up with this belief system as well.

159
00:09:52,405 --> 00:09:54,645
Speaker 1: You're very familiar with how the dog is operate.

160
00:09:54,845 --> 00:09:59,325
Speaker 2: I'm very familiar with it. I never I was never

161
00:09:59,445 --> 00:10:02,405
Speaker 2: really under an umbrella, if you will, but I was

162
00:10:02,925 --> 00:10:05,685
Speaker 2: around it, and I you know, there was a couple

163
00:10:05,685 --> 00:10:08,525
Speaker 2: of times that I felt very controlled by it. Yes

164
00:10:09,325 --> 00:10:12,925
Speaker 2: in particular, I mean just in general when I would

165
00:10:12,965 --> 00:10:15,405
Speaker 2: go over there, I would have to kind of change

166
00:10:15,645 --> 00:10:18,005
Speaker 2: my persona. I couldn't really show the real me.

167
00:10:19,125 --> 00:10:19,325
Speaker 1: You know.

168
00:10:19,365 --> 00:10:21,445
Speaker 2: It was hard to connect with some of the girls

169
00:10:21,485 --> 00:10:24,485
Speaker 2: and just some of my family members because they didn't

170
00:10:24,525 --> 00:10:28,765
Speaker 2: know like the things that teenagers struggle with or even

171
00:10:28,885 --> 00:10:31,445
Speaker 2: you know, young adults struggle with, because they were very

172
00:10:31,805 --> 00:10:34,885
Speaker 2: sheltered and just I think, kind of hidden from the

173
00:10:34,885 --> 00:10:36,885
Speaker 2: world in a lot of a lot of ways. And

174
00:10:36,925 --> 00:10:40,325
Speaker 2: I understand about protecting children. We should do that, we should,

175
00:10:40,565 --> 00:10:43,045
Speaker 2: but at some point I feel like we have to,

176
00:10:43,285 --> 00:10:45,685
Speaker 2: you know, when age appropriate. We had to talk to

177
00:10:45,725 --> 00:10:49,165
Speaker 2: them about the real struggles, the real darkness of this world,

178
00:10:49,645 --> 00:10:52,445
Speaker 2: and it was just something that you know, as you know,

179
00:10:52,485 --> 00:10:55,925
Speaker 2: you read my book, Kate, and so there was just

180
00:10:55,965 --> 00:11:00,085
Speaker 2: a lot of hidden pain that I was experiencing and

181
00:11:00,085 --> 00:11:02,645
Speaker 2: that I never got a chance to really speak to

182
00:11:02,645 --> 00:11:05,325
Speaker 2: my cousins about it because you know, they didn't know

183
00:11:05,365 --> 00:11:07,885
Speaker 2: that kind of pain, which is incredible that they didn't.

184
00:11:08,165 --> 00:11:09,965
Speaker 2: But at the same time, they were having their own

185
00:11:10,005 --> 00:11:11,125
Speaker 2: pain that I didn't know about.

186
00:11:11,605 --> 00:11:14,565
Speaker 1: Well, yes, and in fact a lot of them didn't

187
00:11:14,605 --> 00:11:21,445
Speaker 1: even know substantially or tangibly what that pain was. But

188
00:11:21,605 --> 00:11:25,725
Speaker 1: children are, you know, like insects to a certain extent

189
00:11:25,725 --> 00:11:28,445
Speaker 1: with antenna. Even though a lot of the world is

190
00:11:28,805 --> 00:11:32,965
Speaker 1: denied to them, the vibrations of them transmit back into

191
00:11:33,005 --> 00:11:33,965
Speaker 1: them what is going on.

192
00:11:34,525 --> 00:11:37,125
Speaker 2: They're very perceptive, very yes.

193
00:11:37,605 --> 00:11:42,205
Speaker 1: And because you're a similar age to the older Dugger children,

194
00:11:43,205 --> 00:11:46,125
Speaker 1: and of course there were so many younger ones. At

195
00:11:46,165 --> 00:11:51,205
Speaker 1: what point did you become aware that there was some

196
00:11:51,565 --> 00:11:53,005
Speaker 1: darkness in the family.

197
00:11:53,565 --> 00:11:57,605
Speaker 2: There were several instances that happened, and every time that

198
00:11:57,725 --> 00:12:02,205
Speaker 2: something would happen, I would literally go to my uncle

199
00:12:02,405 --> 00:12:06,965
Speaker 2: and be like, hey, I saw this, Like I've got

200
00:12:07,045 --> 00:12:10,125
Speaker 2: to tell you, this is a big deal. Was there

201
00:12:10,165 --> 00:12:13,965
Speaker 2: was porn found on a computer at one point, and

202
00:12:14,045 --> 00:12:16,965
Speaker 2: it was way before any scandals or anything like that happened.

203
00:12:16,805 --> 00:12:19,285
Speaker 1: Right, So it was like a year before anything happened.

204
00:12:19,285 --> 00:12:23,365
Speaker 1: You've got a second hand computer, yeah, from Josh Duga.

205
00:12:23,445 --> 00:12:25,845
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, my dad actually got it from him. That

206
00:12:25,965 --> 00:12:29,845
Speaker 2: was years ago, years, years and years ago before anything

207
00:12:29,925 --> 00:12:33,125
Speaker 2: came out and I want to make that very perfectly clear,

208
00:12:33,525 --> 00:12:37,205
Speaker 2: and yeah, it was just I was mistaken. My son never,

209
00:12:37,405 --> 00:12:40,365
Speaker 2: if I can remember correctly in my own opinion, he

210
00:12:40,485 --> 00:12:43,885
Speaker 2: basically said like, I, you know, my son never has

211
00:12:43,925 --> 00:12:47,445
Speaker 2: a problem with dad, and you're mistaken, and there isn't

212
00:12:47,485 --> 00:12:48,045
Speaker 2: a problem.

213
00:12:48,445 --> 00:12:51,685
Speaker 1: So Josh Duga, for people who don't know, was the

214
00:12:51,725 --> 00:12:58,165
Speaker 1: eldest of the Dugga children, the eldest son. And at

215
00:12:58,165 --> 00:13:00,405
Speaker 1: one point, this is the way that his parents have

216
00:13:00,525 --> 00:13:03,285
Speaker 1: told the story, he came to them when he was

217
00:13:03,445 --> 00:13:08,645
Speaker 1: like twelve, and he said that he had been inappropriately

218
00:13:08,765 --> 00:13:12,565
Speaker 1: touching at this point, I think two of his sisters

219
00:13:12,885 --> 00:13:16,125
Speaker 1: while they were asleep, they didn't know, over their clothes,

220
00:13:16,205 --> 00:13:21,685
Speaker 1: over the blankets or whatever. So the parents sent him

221
00:13:21,685 --> 00:13:28,725
Speaker 1: to an affiliated Bible sort of rehabilitation center. Obviously, there

222
00:13:28,765 --> 00:13:30,125
Speaker 1: was a lot of praying, There was a lot of

223
00:13:30,165 --> 00:13:33,605
Speaker 1: whatever they say that they thought the situation to be

224
00:13:33,685 --> 00:13:36,605
Speaker 1: dealt with. He returned to the family, they told the

225
00:13:36,645 --> 00:13:38,685
Speaker 1: girls about it. The girls had no idea that it

226
00:13:38,685 --> 00:13:42,045
Speaker 1: had even happened. When Josh came back to the family

227
00:13:42,085 --> 00:13:46,365
Speaker 1: after six months away or whatever, the girls said they

228
00:13:46,565 --> 00:13:48,765
Speaker 1: could tell that he was a different person. They thought

229
00:13:48,805 --> 00:13:52,845
Speaker 1: it was done with. But Amy, it wasn't done with,

230
00:13:53,165 --> 00:13:54,685
Speaker 1: was it not?

231
00:13:54,805 --> 00:13:57,685
Speaker 2: In my opinion, no, ma'am.

232
00:13:57,725 --> 00:14:01,565
Speaker 1: So then there was a re occurrence of inappropriate behavior,

233
00:14:02,925 --> 00:14:08,205
Speaker 1: and then the Duggers let the police know he had

234
00:14:08,205 --> 00:14:10,565
Speaker 1: a record, but because he as a juvenile, that record

235
00:14:10,605 --> 00:14:14,125
Speaker 1: was supposed to be sealed. The girls went to the police.

236
00:14:14,285 --> 00:14:16,725
Speaker 2: They went to the police, but the police officer that

237
00:14:17,725 --> 00:14:21,605
Speaker 2: dealt with the crime in the situation turned out to

238
00:14:21,725 --> 00:14:25,165
Speaker 2: be a predator himself and is now in prison for

239
00:14:25,285 --> 00:14:26,685
Speaker 2: the same things that Josh is.

240
00:14:26,885 --> 00:14:31,645
Speaker 1: That's right, for fifty seven years. Huge sentence, huge sentence.

241
00:14:32,485 --> 00:14:35,045
Speaker 1: So the girls then turned out that there were five

242
00:14:35,085 --> 00:14:38,725
Speaker 1: of them, four of the girls in the family and

243
00:14:39,405 --> 00:14:44,285
Speaker 1: a babysitter. They went to the police. They also made

244
00:14:44,285 --> 00:14:46,125
Speaker 1: statements that was all supposed to be part of this

245
00:14:46,285 --> 00:14:49,605
Speaker 1: sealed because they were all juveniles, it was supposed to

246
00:14:49,645 --> 00:14:52,885
Speaker 1: be the records were supposed to be sealed. Then, as

247
00:14:52,925 --> 00:15:00,005
Speaker 1: the show is hitting Max's popularity, somebody leaks those sealed

248
00:15:00,125 --> 00:15:07,645
Speaker 1: records and the whole Dugger world, I imagine, turns topsy turvy.

249
00:15:08,085 --> 00:15:14,805
Speaker 2: I think it completely collapsed. It's an empire that it's

250
00:15:14,885 --> 00:15:18,525
Speaker 2: just so sad. It's something that I can't even wrap

251
00:15:18,565 --> 00:15:22,565
Speaker 2: my head around it till this day. But I wrote

252
00:15:22,605 --> 00:15:27,245
Speaker 2: Holy Disruptor to kind of share the backstory. I think

253
00:15:27,325 --> 00:15:29,925
Speaker 2: everybody knows, or a lot of people know, especially in

254
00:15:29,965 --> 00:15:32,845
Speaker 2: the States. Maybe in Australia hopefully so, but a lot

255
00:15:32,845 --> 00:15:35,525
Speaker 2: of people know. I think the front scandals and the

256
00:15:35,565 --> 00:15:39,085
Speaker 2: headlines and all of that. But what people don't know

257
00:15:39,245 --> 00:15:44,365
Speaker 2: is what I've written in Holy Disruptor. It's my actual

258
00:15:44,845 --> 00:15:49,045
Speaker 2: life story, yes, and the realness of it, of just

259
00:15:49,125 --> 00:15:51,365
Speaker 2: the conversations and the things that's gone on in my

260
00:15:51,405 --> 00:15:54,965
Speaker 2: life that no one ever knew. And it's the lies

261
00:15:55,085 --> 00:15:57,645
Speaker 2: told were the I mean, I literally in my book

262
00:15:57,645 --> 00:15:59,885
Speaker 2: have a list of lies that were told to me.

263
00:16:00,445 --> 00:16:02,365
Speaker 2: And it's not the fact that I'm trying to call

264
00:16:02,405 --> 00:16:07,485
Speaker 2: out or like you know, shun my family. No, it

265
00:16:07,565 --> 00:16:10,205
Speaker 2: is absolutely the saddest thing to me that I have

266
00:16:10,365 --> 00:16:13,525
Speaker 2: to put boundaries in place like this. I wish to

267
00:16:13,605 --> 00:16:14,965
Speaker 2: God I didn't have to do this.

268
00:16:15,405 --> 00:16:22,885
Speaker 1: So to explain your relationship your mum, Deanna, your precious mother, Yes,

269
00:16:23,605 --> 00:16:26,445
Speaker 1: is the sister of Jim Bob who was the father

270
00:16:26,565 --> 00:16:31,285
Speaker 1: of the nineteen And what you've written about in your

271
00:16:31,325 --> 00:16:36,925
Speaker 1: book so eloquently and very movingly actually is your own

272
00:16:37,165 --> 00:16:45,525
Speaker 1: story of generational trauma. Yeah, trauma, pain in some cases

273
00:16:45,565 --> 00:16:51,965
Speaker 1: almost persecution, dysfunction, abuse.

274
00:16:52,485 --> 00:16:57,445
Speaker 2: Cruelty, financial abuse. Right, there's a lot in the book.

275
00:16:58,645 --> 00:17:01,805
Speaker 2: It's like I can smile about it now, I think

276
00:17:01,845 --> 00:17:04,725
Speaker 2: because I've healed from so much. You know, I'm not

277
00:17:04,765 --> 00:17:07,125
Speaker 2: making light of the situation. I'm not making light of

278
00:17:07,125 --> 00:17:08,925
Speaker 2: what is in the book, because there is some deep

279
00:17:09,005 --> 00:17:13,565
Speaker 2: and dark and awful things in the book. But you're

280
00:17:13,605 --> 00:17:17,565
Speaker 2: seeing a healed version of amy where I can speak

281
00:17:17,605 --> 00:17:21,925
Speaker 2: openly and just smile from ear to ear knowing that like,

282
00:17:22,245 --> 00:17:24,325
Speaker 2: I don't have to live that way anymore. You know.

283
00:17:24,605 --> 00:17:27,365
Speaker 1: Well, it's very interesting because, of course, a well known

284
00:17:27,365 --> 00:17:29,725
Speaker 1: Bible scripture is the Truth will set you free.

285
00:17:30,245 --> 00:17:33,285
Speaker 2: So true. It really is so true. It has I

286
00:17:33,325 --> 00:17:38,925
Speaker 2: feel a thousand times lighter by sharing my story. And

287
00:17:39,605 --> 00:17:43,365
Speaker 2: I literally said, I don't care about New York Times bestseller.

288
00:17:43,645 --> 00:17:45,885
Speaker 2: That's not why I did it. I did it to

289
00:17:45,925 --> 00:17:48,805
Speaker 2: help hearts. I did it to connect with women and

290
00:17:48,845 --> 00:17:53,045
Speaker 2: people all over the world that have experienced all kinds

291
00:17:53,085 --> 00:17:58,125
Speaker 2: of abuse and gas lighting and narcissistic abuse and love

292
00:17:58,245 --> 00:18:02,165
Speaker 2: bombing and flying monkeys and all the all the terms

293
00:18:02,325 --> 00:18:06,285
Speaker 2: used that are that are so important to know about

294
00:18:06,405 --> 00:18:10,325
Speaker 2: narcissistic people. It's just so sad that people use it

295
00:18:10,765 --> 00:18:14,565
Speaker 2: in the name of Jesus. People hide under the mask

296
00:18:15,045 --> 00:18:17,725
Speaker 2: of Jesus, and yet they can hurt little ones, and

297
00:18:17,765 --> 00:18:20,525
Speaker 2: they can lie and steal and cheat and do all

298
00:18:20,565 --> 00:18:21,045
Speaker 2: these things.

299
00:18:21,045 --> 00:18:26,485
Speaker 1: It's horrible when you're talking amy about narcissistic people, who

300
00:18:26,525 --> 00:18:32,405
Speaker 1: are you referring to in particular your own family and then.

301
00:18:32,205 --> 00:18:36,325
Speaker 2: Yeah, my own family and my extended family. I mean,

302
00:18:36,765 --> 00:18:39,725
Speaker 2: and it shows I wouldn't I don't want to call

303
00:18:39,765 --> 00:18:44,245
Speaker 2: out names, but it literally shows you know, what you

304
00:18:44,285 --> 00:18:47,045
Speaker 2: put out in the world, what you put, what you say,

305
00:18:47,085 --> 00:18:51,685
Speaker 2: what you do, your reputation matters. And when it's not

306
00:18:52,245 --> 00:18:55,765
Speaker 2: with your words and your actions aren't matching up, that's

307
00:18:55,805 --> 00:19:00,165
Speaker 2: a huge problem. That's a huge character flaw in a person.

308
00:19:00,845 --> 00:19:03,725
Speaker 2: And I just think it's really important to share the

309
00:19:03,805 --> 00:19:07,325
Speaker 2: backstories as to why. You know, one minute, we're on

310
00:19:07,365 --> 00:19:09,365
Speaker 2: a show and everything's great. In the next minute and

311
00:19:09,405 --> 00:19:13,125
Speaker 2: it's nowhere to be found and you know all the things.

312
00:19:13,205 --> 00:19:15,485
Speaker 2: And so for me, I was like, Wow, how can

313
00:19:15,525 --> 00:19:19,685
Speaker 2: my story connect with people around the world? And I

314
00:19:19,725 --> 00:19:21,805
Speaker 2: can literally like be like, how can you be a

315
00:19:21,845 --> 00:19:25,125
Speaker 2: holy disruptor? In your own life, how can you disrupt

316
00:19:25,205 --> 00:19:29,645
Speaker 2: the toxic cycles that are in your own family? And

317
00:19:30,045 --> 00:19:31,125
Speaker 2: that's what I wrote about.

318
00:19:31,485 --> 00:19:34,325
Speaker 1: And at what point did you decide that you were

319
00:19:34,405 --> 00:19:37,565
Speaker 1: going to write a book, Because it's very interesting that

320
00:19:37,685 --> 00:19:40,645
Speaker 1: from that side of the family, I gather that there

321
00:19:41,245 --> 00:19:42,885
Speaker 1: you have a relationship with Jill.

322
00:19:43,645 --> 00:19:45,845
Speaker 2: You, Yeah, she's wonderful.

323
00:19:45,965 --> 00:19:49,565
Speaker 1: She's the only daughter that you're you have contact with still.

324
00:19:50,445 --> 00:19:54,485
Speaker 2: Jill and I have a very healthy cousinship. Her boys

325
00:19:54,525 --> 00:19:57,845
Speaker 2: come over, they've they've stayed the night. We just have

326
00:19:57,925 --> 00:20:01,165
Speaker 2: such a great relationship and we connect our stories and

327
00:20:01,725 --> 00:20:05,765
Speaker 2: she's just such a wonderful person. The other girls I

328
00:20:05,805 --> 00:20:08,165
Speaker 2: haven't spoken to in a really long time. I have

329
00:20:08,285 --> 00:20:11,845
Speaker 2: reached out a Ginger couple of times, But you know,

330
00:20:12,005 --> 00:20:15,725
Speaker 2: I understand that they have to be they think they

331
00:20:15,765 --> 00:20:19,205
Speaker 2: think they need to be, in my opinion, loyal to

332
00:20:19,245 --> 00:20:23,085
Speaker 2: the family name, and that they still have to like

333
00:20:23,165 --> 00:20:25,725
Speaker 2: honor their parents and all of that. And I just

334
00:20:26,165 --> 00:20:29,285
Speaker 2: hope someday that they all, all of them, as a whole,

335
00:20:29,685 --> 00:20:32,725
Speaker 2: will think for themselves and outside of maybe what they've

336
00:20:32,725 --> 00:20:35,925
Speaker 2: been taught, I think there's a whole lot that they

337
00:20:36,165 --> 00:20:39,725
Speaker 2: probably still need to learn and heal from in my opinion.

338
00:20:39,685 --> 00:20:44,125
Speaker 1: Sure, because they brothers gone to gile, he's in prison.

339
00:20:44,965 --> 00:20:49,565
Speaker 1: The family are still have still aside from Jill, are

340
00:20:49,605 --> 00:20:52,045
Speaker 1: there any others they seem to have closed ranks?

341
00:20:52,165 --> 00:20:55,325
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not really sure of honestly who all is.

342
00:20:55,685 --> 00:20:58,085
Speaker 2: But none of them really speak out loud, you know.

343
00:20:58,125 --> 00:21:00,965
Speaker 2: I'm Jill Do's Jill has her book is incredible.

344
00:21:01,245 --> 00:21:04,085
Speaker 1: So has she stepped out from under the umbrella? Oh?

345
00:21:04,165 --> 00:21:06,685
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no umbrella. She uses it only for the rain.

346
00:21:07,565 --> 00:21:08,445
Speaker 1: Yeah.

347
00:21:08,685 --> 00:21:11,285
Speaker 2: She's her own person and I love to see it.

348
00:21:11,845 --> 00:21:16,365
Speaker 2: She's just wonderful and boho bohemian and you can just

349
00:21:16,405 --> 00:21:20,845
Speaker 2: tell she's so she's so happy, she's so happy, and

350
00:21:20,885 --> 00:21:22,045
Speaker 2: I just I love that for her.

351
00:21:24,005 --> 00:21:28,205
Speaker 1: After the break, Amy recalls the moment she saw the

352
00:21:28,405 --> 00:21:33,725
Speaker 1: truth about her family on the front cover of a magazine.

353
00:21:36,165 --> 00:21:40,365
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I think often when you're raised in

354
00:21:40,405 --> 00:21:44,165
Speaker 1: a religious family, which I also was, Okay, you only

355
00:21:44,245 --> 00:21:46,285
Speaker 1: know the normal that you grow up with. And all

356
00:21:46,365 --> 00:21:48,925
Speaker 1: children are like that anyway, aren't they to a certain extent?

357
00:21:49,045 --> 00:21:50,565
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah for sure.

358
00:21:51,645 --> 00:21:57,245
Speaker 1: At what point did you start to think what I've

359
00:21:57,525 --> 00:22:02,325
Speaker 1: regarded as normal is probably irregular?

360
00:22:03,525 --> 00:22:08,845
Speaker 2: Good question. With the scandal started happening when the first

361
00:22:08,845 --> 00:22:10,845
Speaker 2: one blew our minds?

362
00:22:11,125 --> 00:22:13,285
Speaker 1: So which was which was the first one? Was that

363
00:22:13,365 --> 00:22:15,765
Speaker 1: when it was printed on the cover of the magazine,

364
00:22:16,285 --> 00:22:18,805
Speaker 1: when it was you saw Walmart.

365
00:22:18,485 --> 00:22:21,245
Speaker 2: That I saw it in Walmart, and that moment, I

366
00:22:21,485 --> 00:22:27,685
Speaker 2: was just like, what, Like, what is this? This could

367
00:22:27,725 --> 00:22:30,245
Speaker 2: not be true. There's no way this can be true.

368
00:22:30,485 --> 00:22:33,965
Speaker 1: Imagine tell me about that, Die Amy, tell me about

369
00:22:33,965 --> 00:22:34,725
Speaker 1: where you were, And.

370
00:22:35,405 --> 00:22:38,005
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. I don't even I honestly don't even

371
00:22:38,005 --> 00:22:40,245
Speaker 2: know what I was doing at Walmart. It's been so

372
00:22:40,365 --> 00:22:45,925
Speaker 2: long ago, getting some groceries, minding my own business, you know,

373
00:22:46,245 --> 00:22:50,845
Speaker 2: and just I don't really pick up magazines normally. But

374
00:22:50,925 --> 00:22:54,005
Speaker 2: when you see a house that you have gone to

375
00:22:54,365 --> 00:22:58,965
Speaker 2: a million plus times on a front cover with the

376
00:22:59,005 --> 00:23:04,165
Speaker 2: words House of Horrors and big bold letters printed on it,

377
00:23:04,325 --> 00:23:09,605
Speaker 2: you stop in your tracks and you go, what is this?

378
00:23:10,325 --> 00:23:13,045
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, And I knew something was off. My

379
00:23:13,525 --> 00:23:18,085
Speaker 2: heart was pounding, I was like sweating. I had tears

380
00:23:18,085 --> 00:23:20,965
Speaker 2: in my eyes. People probably thought I was crazy. At Walmart,

381
00:23:21,045 --> 00:23:25,485
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just staring at this magazine title and

382
00:23:26,445 --> 00:23:29,965
Speaker 2: this cover, and I just I was so broken hearted,

383
00:23:30,005 --> 00:23:32,045
Speaker 2: and at the same time, I didn't want to believe it.

384
00:23:32,365 --> 00:23:35,885
Speaker 1: But when you saw that title House of Horrors, it

385
00:23:35,965 --> 00:23:40,005
Speaker 1: must have brought back to you the computer it did.

386
00:23:40,445 --> 00:23:42,885
Speaker 1: What was your first thought? Did you know straight away

387
00:23:43,405 --> 00:23:45,885
Speaker 1: that it was something to do with Josh? Like, how

388
00:23:45,885 --> 00:23:49,845
Speaker 1: are you processing it? I have the knowledge that you had.

389
00:23:49,565 --> 00:23:52,845
Speaker 2: I honestly didn't. I didn't want to go there, right.

390
00:23:52,965 --> 00:23:55,285
Speaker 2: I always wanted to believe the good in people. And

391
00:23:55,365 --> 00:23:59,125
Speaker 2: I'm not necessarily naive, especially not anymore, but I used

392
00:23:59,125 --> 00:24:02,245
Speaker 2: to just believe what I was told. So I asked

393
00:24:02,245 --> 00:24:05,165
Speaker 2: my grandma, I asked my mom. They had no idea

394
00:24:05,205 --> 00:24:08,405
Speaker 2: what it was, you know, my mom or my grandma

395
00:24:08,485 --> 00:24:11,525
Speaker 2: was given some kind of Oh they were they were

396
00:24:11,565 --> 00:24:14,565
Speaker 2: just camping, and he and Josh went and scared the

397
00:24:14,605 --> 00:24:17,645
Speaker 2: girls and got a little too close, you know, And

398
00:24:17,685 --> 00:24:19,485
Speaker 2: I was like, what that doesn't make sense. Why is

399
00:24:19,485 --> 00:24:22,525
Speaker 2: that a headline? And then you're right, I did. I

400
00:24:22,565 --> 00:24:25,885
Speaker 2: started to think about the things that I tried to

401
00:24:25,925 --> 00:24:28,725
Speaker 2: get someone to pay attention to years ago.

402
00:24:29,365 --> 00:24:33,205
Speaker 1: Was that also, before that, before you saw that headline

403
00:24:33,605 --> 00:24:36,405
Speaker 1: you write in your book about when you found one

404
00:24:36,485 --> 00:24:41,045
Speaker 1: of your cousins in the fatal position in the pantry, crying.

405
00:24:41,845 --> 00:24:44,845
Speaker 2: Yes, that was all before the headlines as well.

406
00:24:44,965 --> 00:24:47,245
Speaker 1: Right, okay, so you must have thought of that as well.

407
00:24:47,325 --> 00:24:48,485
Speaker 1: That incident I did.

408
00:24:48,885 --> 00:24:51,565
Speaker 2: I did. I was thinking, oh my goodness, what caused

409
00:24:51,605 --> 00:24:56,525
Speaker 2: that person to react in such a like just a

410
00:24:56,565 --> 00:25:01,125
Speaker 2: broken way. I had a million questions. And the thing is, Kate,

411
00:25:01,285 --> 00:25:04,165
Speaker 2: is that the truth has always been very hard to

412
00:25:04,205 --> 00:25:07,645
Speaker 2: find in my family, and it's really I hate that.

413
00:25:07,925 --> 00:25:09,245
Speaker 2: Why does it have to be that way?

414
00:25:09,405 --> 00:25:12,485
Speaker 1: Well? I think you know why, Amy, I do. People

415
00:25:12,845 --> 00:25:17,605
Speaker 1: only hide the truth when the truth is at odds

416
00:25:17,645 --> 00:25:20,925
Speaker 1: with what they're trying to project. Like what do you

417
00:25:21,005 --> 00:25:25,645
Speaker 1: ever hide in life? People hide treasure, and they hide

418
00:25:25,685 --> 00:25:27,005
Speaker 1: seen and shame.

419
00:25:27,125 --> 00:25:32,445
Speaker 2: Right, they hide darkness. They it's just it's so sad

420
00:25:32,885 --> 00:25:36,085
Speaker 2: and so yeah. In that moment, I think I just

421
00:25:36,245 --> 00:25:40,005
Speaker 2: was like, oh no, I just broke down. I just

422
00:25:40,045 --> 00:25:42,365
Speaker 2: broke down. And it took me a really long time

423
00:25:43,205 --> 00:25:47,125
Speaker 2: to face the truth that this is actually happening and

424
00:25:47,165 --> 00:25:49,845
Speaker 2: that there's so much more to the story.

425
00:25:49,885 --> 00:25:51,445
Speaker 1: Did you buy the magazine?

426
00:25:51,645 --> 00:25:54,645
Speaker 2: I didn't. I read the article and I just stood

427
00:25:54,685 --> 00:25:57,205
Speaker 2: there and then I was like, oh my gosh, like,

428
00:25:57,685 --> 00:26:02,285
Speaker 2: because magazines can write anything, right, So I wanted to

429
00:26:02,285 --> 00:26:06,285
Speaker 2: give my family a chance to just be honest with

430
00:26:06,325 --> 00:26:10,405
Speaker 2: me and so I did call my uncle after that

431
00:26:10,605 --> 00:26:13,445
Speaker 2: after seeing that, and I was told that there was

432
00:26:13,485 --> 00:26:16,885
Speaker 2: no truth to the story. And I was told that

433
00:26:17,525 --> 00:26:20,885
Speaker 2: don't it'll let it blow over. There's no truth to it.

434
00:26:21,245 --> 00:26:23,925
Speaker 2: Don't don't talk to media about it. It's just they

435
00:26:24,005 --> 00:26:26,725
Speaker 2: needed a story, that they needed a headline. And I

436
00:26:26,765 --> 00:26:29,045
Speaker 2: was like, oh, man, I'm so sorry. You guys have

437
00:26:29,085 --> 00:26:32,045
Speaker 2: to deal with that because that's a really like negative,

438
00:26:32,245 --> 00:26:33,285
Speaker 2: ugly headline.

439
00:26:33,365 --> 00:26:36,325
Speaker 1: And at that time, of course, Josh was married, wasn't he,

440
00:26:36,445 --> 00:26:38,925
Speaker 1: And there had been he just got married on the

441
00:26:38,965 --> 00:26:44,365
Speaker 1: show that was a special. It had rated enormously worse.

442
00:26:44,485 --> 00:26:49,245
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's just I'm like, I want to know

443
00:26:49,325 --> 00:26:53,445
Speaker 2: the truth, and you know, regardless if it's bad or good,

444
00:26:53,525 --> 00:26:57,205
Speaker 2: it's just I feel like people deserve the truth. And

445
00:26:57,245 --> 00:26:59,965
Speaker 2: that's why I wrote Holy Disruptor, is to say, hey,

446
00:26:59,965 --> 00:27:03,725
Speaker 2: there's a whole lot more story that has never been told.

447
00:27:04,165 --> 00:27:06,245
Speaker 2: And no, it's not a tell all, you know, it's

448
00:27:06,285 --> 00:27:08,445
Speaker 2: not a tell all of my family, like here's all

449
00:27:08,485 --> 00:27:10,965
Speaker 2: the crap, you know, here's all the bad things. But

450
00:27:11,005 --> 00:27:13,445
Speaker 2: at the same time, it's the story of my life

451
00:27:13,765 --> 00:27:18,005
Speaker 2: from the beginning all the way until now. It really

452
00:27:18,045 --> 00:27:20,965
Speaker 2: connects the dots as to why things happen and why

453
00:27:21,005 --> 00:27:24,485
Speaker 2: there's boundaries in place. Yes, there has to be there

454
00:27:24,565 --> 00:27:27,125
Speaker 2: has to be boundaries and place. I must protect my child,

455
00:27:27,605 --> 00:27:28,365
Speaker 2: I must do it.

456
00:27:28,645 --> 00:27:34,205
Speaker 1: I actually found your book to be very uplifting, Thank you,

457
00:27:34,765 --> 00:27:37,045
Speaker 1: because it's the tale of how you've come out of

458
00:27:37,605 --> 00:27:41,205
Speaker 1: a lot of darkness in your own life. It's also

459
00:27:41,645 --> 00:27:50,245
Speaker 1: very interesting about generational brokenness, generational brokenness in your family,

460
00:27:50,925 --> 00:27:54,005
Speaker 1: your mother who suffered at the hands of her grandparents,

461
00:27:54,605 --> 00:27:59,325
Speaker 1: who were also Jimbob's parents, of parents and grandparents. Yes,

462
00:28:00,005 --> 00:28:03,725
Speaker 1: do you think that. I mean, even when you're telling

463
00:28:03,765 --> 00:28:05,765
Speaker 1: in your book about how you were never allowed to

464
00:28:05,805 --> 00:28:08,205
Speaker 1: be alone with your grandfather and you didn't understand why

465
00:28:08,205 --> 00:28:11,605
Speaker 1: that was. What were the rules in place that you

466
00:28:11,645 --> 00:28:13,085
Speaker 1: were told about your grandfather?

467
00:28:13,685 --> 00:28:16,765
Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness. Well, first off, my grandma was like

468
00:28:17,485 --> 00:28:21,005
Speaker 2: my second mom. She helped raise me. When my mom

469
00:28:21,125 --> 00:28:23,845
Speaker 2: wasn't available to pick me up from school, my grandma did.

470
00:28:24,365 --> 00:28:26,685
Speaker 2: We went shopping together, we were best friends. We did

471
00:28:26,725 --> 00:28:29,525
Speaker 2: everything together. So it was we had this really really

472
00:28:29,605 --> 00:28:31,685
Speaker 2: we were the closest out of all the cousins. I

473
00:28:31,765 --> 00:28:34,205
Speaker 2: was the closest to Grandma. And they all know that

474
00:28:34,245 --> 00:28:39,245
Speaker 2: they would all say that. But I think that because

475
00:28:39,285 --> 00:28:42,325
Speaker 2: of that type of relationship that we had, she could

476
00:28:42,405 --> 00:28:44,685
Speaker 2: just be open and honest and tell me, well, okay,

477
00:28:44,725 --> 00:28:47,485
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say she was open and honest. I think

478
00:28:47,485 --> 00:28:49,925
Speaker 2: there was a lot she was hiding a lot of pain,

479
00:28:50,085 --> 00:28:52,445
Speaker 2: a lot of hurt, a lot of things she didn't

480
00:28:52,445 --> 00:28:54,805
Speaker 2: know how to even work through. But I do think

481
00:28:54,845 --> 00:28:58,925
Speaker 2: that she just made it really like easy to understand.

482
00:28:59,365 --> 00:29:01,285
Speaker 2: I was a little girl. So she'd be like, Hey,

483
00:29:01,605 --> 00:29:04,725
Speaker 2: if you see Grandpa, you know, in the hallway at night,

484
00:29:05,045 --> 00:29:07,205
Speaker 2: don't go out and say hi to him. Just stay

485
00:29:07,245 --> 00:29:10,565
Speaker 2: in your room. And I was like okay, and she

486
00:29:10,645 --> 00:29:13,005
Speaker 2: was like, now we lock our door, like I'm gonna

487
00:29:13,045 --> 00:29:15,685
Speaker 2: check your door every night, make sure it's locked. And

488
00:29:15,725 --> 00:29:18,605
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, Like it wasn't. She didn't make

489
00:29:18,645 --> 00:29:22,205
Speaker 2: it sound like he was like a terrible person. It

490
00:29:22,285 --> 00:29:24,325
Speaker 2: was more of just like, hey, like this is just

491
00:29:24,445 --> 00:29:27,405
Speaker 2: practical and what we do. And so I just knew,

492
00:29:27,445 --> 00:29:29,565
Speaker 2: step by step that's what we do. I knew my

493
00:29:29,605 --> 00:29:32,205
Speaker 2: grandpa didn't sit on the couch with me. I knew

494
00:29:32,205 --> 00:29:34,965
Speaker 2: if I had a blanket on the couch, I had

495
00:29:34,965 --> 00:29:37,725
Speaker 2: to move if my grandpa sat down beside me, I

496
00:29:37,805 --> 00:29:40,325
Speaker 2: knew that he couldn't be in the backyard with me.

497
00:29:40,445 --> 00:29:42,125
Speaker 2: I knew I couldn't be in a car with him.

498
00:29:42,605 --> 00:29:46,005
Speaker 2: I knew he couldn't like take me on a fun outing.

499
00:29:46,485 --> 00:29:48,285
Speaker 2: He couldn't pick me up from school, he couldn't take

500
00:29:48,325 --> 00:29:52,525
Speaker 2: me from school. I knew these like big rules. But

501
00:29:52,645 --> 00:29:55,565
Speaker 2: I also thought it was just practical. And I just

502
00:29:56,165 --> 00:29:59,565
Speaker 2: like I said, I was young. You believe what you're told,

503
00:30:00,165 --> 00:30:03,205
Speaker 2: and so for me, I didn't put the two and

504
00:30:03,245 --> 00:30:05,405
Speaker 2: two together until I was older.

505
00:30:05,765 --> 00:30:09,885
Speaker 1: Right, what was the moment where you went an incident

506
00:30:09,925 --> 00:30:12,845
Speaker 1: you write about in the book where he called you

507
00:30:12,965 --> 00:30:13,805
Speaker 1: into his room.

508
00:30:14,405 --> 00:30:18,445
Speaker 2: Whyn, That wasn't me, that was my mom. That was

509
00:30:18,485 --> 00:30:21,605
Speaker 2: my mom, that that happens. How she knew, That's how

510
00:30:21,725 --> 00:30:27,125
Speaker 2: she knew? Oh right, Yeah, I did not know for

511
00:30:27,205 --> 00:30:30,565
Speaker 2: a very long time. It wasn't until my grandma passed

512
00:30:30,565 --> 00:30:33,925
Speaker 2: and my grandpa were gone that my mom sat me down,

513
00:30:34,285 --> 00:30:36,965
Speaker 2: bawling her eyes out and just told me the truth

514
00:30:36,965 --> 00:30:39,725
Speaker 2: about them. I think she wanted to protect me as

515
00:30:39,765 --> 00:30:44,005
Speaker 2: long as possible, And yeah, it's just something that Thank god,

516
00:30:44,165 --> 00:30:46,725
Speaker 2: my grandma checked my door every night. Thank God my

517
00:30:46,805 --> 00:30:50,565
Speaker 2: mom protected me. You know, I don't know what well

518
00:30:50,605 --> 00:30:52,325
Speaker 2: I know what could have happened.

519
00:30:52,285 --> 00:30:54,925
Speaker 1: When she told you the truth of her parents, which

520
00:30:54,925 --> 00:30:59,005
Speaker 1: is also very hard to speak aloud for a number

521
00:30:59,045 --> 00:31:03,885
Speaker 1: of reasons, sure, but also because they were also a

522
00:31:04,005 --> 00:31:06,525
Speaker 1: religious family as well, so there was lucky.

523
00:31:06,445 --> 00:31:09,725
Speaker 2: There were They went to church every Sunday, everywhere day,

524
00:31:10,245 --> 00:31:11,845
Speaker 2: very much involved in the church.

525
00:31:12,325 --> 00:31:14,525
Speaker 1: When she told you the truth of them, how did

526
00:31:14,565 --> 00:31:15,965
Speaker 1: she put it to you?

527
00:31:16,725 --> 00:31:19,045
Speaker 2: She just said that I need to tell you the

528
00:31:19,085 --> 00:31:23,325
Speaker 2: truth about some things. Have a seat, And I was like, okay,

529
00:31:23,685 --> 00:31:26,045
Speaker 2: and I was kind of, you know, like touched her

530
00:31:26,085 --> 00:31:28,965
Speaker 2: shoulder and I was like, what's going on? And she

531
00:31:29,125 --> 00:31:32,205
Speaker 2: was just like, there's a lot of things that you

532
00:31:32,285 --> 00:31:36,405
Speaker 2: don't know that you need to know because this is

533
00:31:36,405 --> 00:31:40,925
Speaker 2: an important part of our family's history. And I was just,

534
00:31:42,285 --> 00:31:44,565
Speaker 2: I mean, what do you do? I literally plummeted like

535
00:31:44,605 --> 00:31:48,525
Speaker 2: a rock. I felt like I've always had this feeling

536
00:31:48,645 --> 00:31:51,445
Speaker 2: over me that I can protect my mom, that I

537
00:31:51,525 --> 00:31:54,965
Speaker 2: need to protect my mom I always have from my dad,

538
00:31:55,605 --> 00:31:58,285
Speaker 2: from everybody. I've always felt.

539
00:31:58,165 --> 00:32:02,565
Speaker 1: Because your mom said herself, and you write this, your

540
00:32:02,565 --> 00:32:09,525
Speaker 1: mom always said about you, You're the tree that shaded me. Yes, yes,

541
00:32:09,885 --> 00:32:11,245
Speaker 1: which gives me goose bumps.

542
00:32:11,645 --> 00:32:14,645
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's a very powerful statement when you really

543
00:32:14,685 --> 00:32:19,325
Speaker 2: think about it. I just remember us both crying and

544
00:32:19,325 --> 00:32:22,445
Speaker 2: and we just held each other, you know, and I

545
00:32:22,525 --> 00:32:25,445
Speaker 2: just said, I'm so sorry for the pain that you

546
00:32:25,765 --> 00:32:27,085
Speaker 2: experienced in your life.

547
00:32:27,485 --> 00:32:30,245
Speaker 1: Amy. Do you think that at the point that she

548
00:32:30,445 --> 00:32:33,525
Speaker 1: told you timeline wise, I'm trying to get this clear,

549
00:32:34,965 --> 00:32:37,685
Speaker 1: do you think that was because of what was happening

550
00:32:37,765 --> 00:32:39,365
Speaker 1: in the other arm of the family.

551
00:32:39,885 --> 00:32:45,645
Speaker 2: No, my mom had no idea at all. We found

552
00:32:45,685 --> 00:32:50,205
Speaker 2: out about all the other darkness in the family on

553
00:32:50,405 --> 00:32:56,805
Speaker 2: national television like everyone else. Wow, slap in the face.

554
00:32:57,125 --> 00:32:59,965
Speaker 2: That is a slap in the face to find out

555
00:33:00,525 --> 00:33:06,325
Speaker 2: horrible truths that we were told were completely like you know,

556
00:33:06,685 --> 00:33:10,485
Speaker 2: there was no truth to it at all, National Television.

557
00:33:10,845 --> 00:33:13,165
Speaker 1: Were you together when you were watching it? Yes.

558
00:33:13,885 --> 00:33:18,885
Speaker 2: I was actually trying on my wedding dress. Oh yeah,

559
00:33:18,925 --> 00:33:22,285
Speaker 2: and uh my mom got a text and said turn

560
00:33:22,365 --> 00:33:24,605
Speaker 2: on the TV. You have to see this, And so

561
00:33:24,645 --> 00:33:26,165
Speaker 2: we were like, what in the world. So we turned

562
00:33:26,165 --> 00:33:29,645
Speaker 2: on the TV and we just sat there and just cried.

563
00:33:29,885 --> 00:33:33,085
Speaker 2: I just sat I was in my wedding dress crying

564
00:33:33,605 --> 00:33:36,405
Speaker 2: and what was that story about the about the girls?

565
00:33:36,445 --> 00:33:38,685
Speaker 2: There was you know, when it actually came to truth

566
00:33:38,685 --> 00:33:41,245
Speaker 2: that it was true. You know. The headline on the

567
00:33:41,365 --> 00:33:44,085
Speaker 2: on the magazine was just, oh, what's this, you know,

568
00:33:44,125 --> 00:33:46,445
Speaker 2: but there's no truth to it yet. So that was

569
00:33:46,485 --> 00:33:49,605
Speaker 2: when the first moment that I even got a whim

570
00:33:49,725 --> 00:33:51,965
Speaker 2: of like something could be off, you know, but when

571
00:33:52,005 --> 00:33:56,325
Speaker 2: it actually came true and was awful and disgusting on

572
00:33:56,405 --> 00:33:59,045
Speaker 2: every level. Yeah, we saw it on television.

573
00:33:59,805 --> 00:34:02,165
Speaker 1: Your grandma, who you were talking about, who played such

574
00:34:02,205 --> 00:34:05,285
Speaker 1: an amazing pivotal role in your life, also was the

575
00:34:05,285 --> 00:34:08,045
Speaker 1: one that got you involved in the TV show.

576
00:34:08,245 --> 00:34:12,885
Speaker 2: Yes, correct, Yes, yeah, she was stubborn as a mule. Okay,

577
00:34:13,125 --> 00:34:16,685
Speaker 2: let me tell you. She knew she had she had

578
00:34:16,685 --> 00:34:19,285
Speaker 2: her inner workings. She's a very she was a very

579
00:34:19,365 --> 00:34:23,005
Speaker 2: smart woman, and I think she just just kind of

580
00:34:23,045 --> 00:34:25,445
Speaker 2: put two and two together in her mind. And yeah,

581
00:34:25,725 --> 00:34:27,365
Speaker 2: that's why I was on the show in the first place.

582
00:34:27,525 --> 00:34:30,045
Speaker 2: I never asked to be on the show. I never

583
00:34:30,565 --> 00:34:33,285
Speaker 2: hinted to be on the show. I never tried to

584
00:34:33,325 --> 00:34:37,645
Speaker 2: be you know, jumping the camera, nothing, nothing. I knew

585
00:34:37,685 --> 00:34:39,925
Speaker 2: that that was their world and I would just see

586
00:34:39,925 --> 00:34:42,085
Speaker 2: them after, you know. And I never thought in a

587
00:34:42,165 --> 00:34:45,485
Speaker 2: million years that being on a reality show for as

588
00:34:45,525 --> 00:34:50,845
Speaker 2: long as I did would equal a huge documentary on Amazon,

589
00:34:51,365 --> 00:34:56,085
Speaker 2: Shiny Happy People, that has just blown the charts, and

590
00:34:56,085 --> 00:34:58,885
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that the truth has been exposed. And

591
00:34:58,925 --> 00:35:02,965
Speaker 2: then because of that, now I have a memoir about

592
00:35:03,045 --> 00:35:04,885
Speaker 2: the things that have gone on in my own life.

593
00:35:05,485 --> 00:35:08,365
Speaker 1: When you went that day to pick up your grandma

594
00:35:09,045 --> 00:35:11,325
Speaker 1: to taker to the dentist, I think it was to.

595
00:35:11,285 --> 00:35:13,845
Speaker 2: An appointment, Yeah, just to an appointment. I forgot what

596
00:35:13,925 --> 00:35:15,605
Speaker 2: it was now, it's been so long ago.

597
00:35:15,925 --> 00:35:19,685
Speaker 1: And she said, come in and you tell the story

598
00:35:19,685 --> 00:35:21,405
Speaker 1: of how you drove up to the house and there

599
00:35:21,445 --> 00:35:23,885
Speaker 1: were the film crew trucks everywhere, and you knew that

600
00:35:23,925 --> 00:35:26,765
Speaker 1: they always filmed, but prior to that, you'd not really

601
00:35:26,765 --> 00:35:28,925
Speaker 1: been around when they were filming, though you did spend

602
00:35:28,965 --> 00:35:31,285
Speaker 1: a lot of time with your cousins in at the house.

603
00:35:31,245 --> 00:35:34,045
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, I just didn't ever show up on like

604
00:35:34,085 --> 00:35:35,045
Speaker 2: the filming days.

605
00:35:35,405 --> 00:35:39,365
Speaker 1: Right. So that day, your grandma seed, I've just got

606
00:35:39,405 --> 00:35:41,565
Speaker 1: to do a few things. I want you to come in, right,

607
00:35:42,445 --> 00:35:45,165
Speaker 1: like you said, she knew what she was doing. Yeah,

608
00:35:45,205 --> 00:35:50,285
Speaker 1: And my understanding of it is that she was giving

609
00:35:50,365 --> 00:35:55,885
Speaker 1: you a gift. Then, because for all the ensuing fallout

610
00:35:55,885 --> 00:35:57,445
Speaker 1: of it, you were on that show for one hundred

611
00:35:57,485 --> 00:36:00,405
Speaker 1: and nine episodes and over having a great time and

612
00:36:00,485 --> 00:36:03,565
Speaker 1: you seed it. Yes, yeah, yeah right, it opened the

613
00:36:03,565 --> 00:36:05,605
Speaker 1: world up to you, it did.

614
00:36:05,805 --> 00:36:09,245
Speaker 2: I listen. It's not that I'm not grateful for the opportunities.

615
00:36:09,645 --> 00:36:12,685
Speaker 2: I know that I would be absolutely well. First off,

616
00:36:12,765 --> 00:36:15,005
Speaker 2: let me just say this, O, Kate, I don't consider

617
00:36:15,045 --> 00:36:18,205
Speaker 2: myself famous, not even a little bit. Okay, Like I

618
00:36:18,365 --> 00:36:21,525
Speaker 2: do not like the famous title. I think that is ridiculous.

619
00:36:21,565 --> 00:36:23,965
Speaker 2: I'm just a cousin that people will know. You know.

620
00:36:24,125 --> 00:36:26,405
Speaker 2: It's just something that if you're like, oh yeah, the

621
00:36:26,445 --> 00:36:28,645
Speaker 2: cousin on the show. Oh yeah, it's like that. I

622
00:36:28,685 --> 00:36:31,085
Speaker 2: want to be relatable. I want to be friendly to everyone.

623
00:36:31,285 --> 00:36:33,725
Speaker 2: I don't feel famous. Let me just say that.

624
00:36:34,045 --> 00:36:38,645
Speaker 1: But however you identify, yeah, it's probably at odds with

625
00:36:38,685 --> 00:36:41,445
Speaker 1: how the world identifies you, because I imagine even when

626
00:36:41,485 --> 00:36:44,165
Speaker 1: you were standing in Walmart looking at that magazine, there

627
00:36:44,165 --> 00:36:50,085
Speaker 1: were people looking at you. Guys. Yeah this crazy casin

628
00:36:50,165 --> 00:36:51,885
Speaker 1: Amy reading about it.

629
00:36:53,005 --> 00:36:56,565
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's true. I mean I am one of

630
00:36:56,605 --> 00:36:59,205
Speaker 2: the people that, like, I guess when people do see

631
00:36:59,205 --> 00:37:02,645
Speaker 2: me out in public, they'll be like Amy, hey, and

632
00:37:02,725 --> 00:37:05,525
Speaker 2: like they'll just act like they know me, and I

633
00:37:05,565 --> 00:37:09,445
Speaker 2: am I am that bubbly type of personality, very sanguine

634
00:37:09,525 --> 00:37:11,645
Speaker 2: and like I'll just hug them and I'm like, it's

635
00:37:11,685 --> 00:37:14,925
Speaker 2: so nice to meet you. It's thank you, Like you know,

636
00:37:15,005 --> 00:37:18,605
Speaker 2: I'm very I it's very humbling. It is extremely humbling

637
00:37:18,965 --> 00:37:22,325
Speaker 2: to be noticed like that and to just, I don't know,

638
00:37:22,405 --> 00:37:24,605
Speaker 2: to share my story in such a real and honest

639
00:37:24,645 --> 00:37:26,405
Speaker 2: and raw way in.

640
00:37:26,325 --> 00:37:30,285
Speaker 1: The fallout of the show. So when these revelations came

641
00:37:30,325 --> 00:37:34,285
Speaker 1: to light, the show was waiting to be rolled over

642
00:37:34,445 --> 00:37:38,285
Speaker 1: into another season. That didn't happen, did it?

643
00:37:38,325 --> 00:37:42,925
Speaker 2: That brought It's not yeah preaching Holt to everything greeching Holt.

644
00:37:43,005 --> 00:37:46,165
Speaker 2: I actually they were very interested in filming my wedding

645
00:37:47,125 --> 00:37:49,885
Speaker 2: and it's something that you know, I wanted to kind

646
00:37:49,885 --> 00:37:51,885
Speaker 2: of give as a gift to the to the viewers,

647
00:37:51,925 --> 00:37:54,085
Speaker 2: to the ones that grew up with me, to see

648
00:37:54,085 --> 00:37:57,245
Speaker 2: me married and all of that. But at the same time,

649
00:37:57,565 --> 00:37:59,445
Speaker 2: with everything going on, they were like, you're gonna have

650
00:37:59,485 --> 00:38:01,885
Speaker 2: to postpone it or just do it without it, and

651
00:38:01,925 --> 00:38:04,725
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm not waiting. I want to be married,

652
00:38:04,765 --> 00:38:07,405
Speaker 2: like you know, I had, I had everything set everything,

653
00:38:07,805 --> 00:38:13,085
Speaker 2: and so that, yeah, it stopped a screeching Holt.

654
00:38:12,645 --> 00:38:18,005
Speaker 1: And your husband Dylan. Yes, who has been such a

655
00:38:18,045 --> 00:38:19,485
Speaker 1: pillar of strength to you.

656
00:38:19,885 --> 00:38:20,885
Speaker 2: He is my hero.

657
00:38:21,645 --> 00:38:26,445
Speaker 1: What did he make coming into the family. What was

658
00:38:26,485 --> 00:38:28,685
Speaker 1: his reading? You know, sometimes you see through the eyes

659
00:38:28,725 --> 00:38:31,885
Speaker 1: of a stranger things that you haven't seen yourself.

660
00:38:32,165 --> 00:38:36,645
Speaker 2: Yes, no, he So here's the thing. They didn't really

661
00:38:36,685 --> 00:38:39,325
Speaker 2: get to know Dylan. He was over there a couple

662
00:38:39,365 --> 00:38:43,285
Speaker 2: of times, and I really remember like some funny moments.

663
00:38:43,365 --> 00:38:45,845
Speaker 2: I'll just tell you. There was one time that Dylan

664
00:38:46,445 --> 00:38:48,605
Speaker 2: was talking to one of my little cousins, so sweet,

665
00:38:48,685 --> 00:38:53,485
Speaker 2: so innocent, you know, and she's like, Dylan, what's your

666
00:38:53,525 --> 00:38:57,965
Speaker 2: favorite color? And he's like black and they were like

667
00:38:58,125 --> 00:39:03,685
Speaker 2: oooh like and he was like, what black looks sexy

668
00:39:03,725 --> 00:39:07,285
Speaker 2: on a car? And I like kicked him underneath the

669
00:39:07,405 --> 00:39:10,005
Speaker 2: table and I was like, stops. And he's like what

670
00:39:10,045 --> 00:39:12,045
Speaker 2: did I do? What did I do? You know, like

671
00:39:12,085 --> 00:39:13,045
Speaker 2: all that kind of thing.

672
00:39:13,005 --> 00:39:15,165
Speaker 1: Because black is the forbidden color.

673
00:39:15,445 --> 00:39:18,645
Speaker 2: Correct. There was another time that they met him and

674
00:39:18,685 --> 00:39:20,725
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, let's try this again. It was

675
00:39:20,725 --> 00:39:23,445
Speaker 2: someone's birthday party and we went to a place that

676
00:39:23,565 --> 00:39:25,725
Speaker 2: had you know, there was music, and you know, it

677
00:39:25,765 --> 00:39:28,005
Speaker 2: was kind of loud, and it was bowling and it

678
00:39:28,045 --> 00:39:31,685
Speaker 2: was like glow bowling that we were going to, and

679
00:39:31,765 --> 00:39:36,045
Speaker 2: Dylan walked in dancing. Oh, he walked in dancing, and.

680
00:39:36,045 --> 00:39:38,485
Speaker 1: I've forbidden also forbidden.

681
00:39:38,245 --> 00:39:40,685
Speaker 2: Also the beat it has to Yeah, if it's an

682
00:39:40,725 --> 00:39:45,405
Speaker 2: offbeat of any kind of drum, it's considered worldly and ungodly.

683
00:39:45,965 --> 00:39:50,085
Speaker 2: And here he is just dancing and walking in and

684
00:39:50,365 --> 00:39:53,045
Speaker 2: trying just to lighten the mood of like, Hey, I'm Dylan,

685
00:39:53,485 --> 00:39:56,285
Speaker 2: and they all I Am not even kidding Kate. They

686
00:39:56,405 --> 00:39:59,685
Speaker 2: all looked at him and turned completely around.

687
00:39:59,845 --> 00:40:03,925
Speaker 1: Oh, so they wouldn't say the what the work of wickedness,

688
00:40:04,405 --> 00:40:06,165
Speaker 1: which was the dancing.

689
00:40:06,125 --> 00:40:09,125
Speaker 2: Right, yes, and so I he was like, what did

690
00:40:09,125 --> 00:40:13,485
Speaker 2: I do? And so unfortunately they never truly got to

691
00:40:13,525 --> 00:40:16,125
Speaker 2: see the man that I married and the person that

692
00:40:16,205 --> 00:40:16,525
Speaker 2: he is.

693
00:40:16,765 --> 00:40:17,885
Speaker 1: Were they at your wedding?

694
00:40:18,085 --> 00:40:22,045
Speaker 2: They were, they were, But again it was a very

695
00:40:22,045 --> 00:40:26,605
Speaker 2: interesting family dynamic there. They loved me, but only as

696
00:40:26,645 --> 00:40:27,845
Speaker 2: far as they could get.

697
00:40:30,565 --> 00:40:34,725
Speaker 1: Coming up next, Amy reflects on her relationship with her

698
00:40:34,765 --> 00:40:42,845
Speaker 1: cousins and the unusual interactions they had. You also say

699
00:40:42,845 --> 00:40:45,005
Speaker 1: in your book that sometimes when you would meet the

700
00:40:45,005 --> 00:40:48,445
Speaker 1: girls on the street, for instance, they would greet you

701
00:40:48,605 --> 00:40:52,005
Speaker 1: like you were a stranger. Yeah, even though you were

702
00:40:52,045 --> 00:40:55,565
Speaker 1: their cousin that they saw so much of. Yeah, why

703
00:40:55,805 --> 00:40:57,125
Speaker 1: was that? Do you think?

704
00:40:57,445 --> 00:41:00,485
Speaker 2: I really don't know. I honestly think that there was

705
00:41:00,765 --> 00:41:04,165
Speaker 2: so much hidden pain going on they didn't know how

706
00:41:04,205 --> 00:41:08,165
Speaker 2: to probably process it. They didn't know how to handle

707
00:41:08,205 --> 00:41:10,845
Speaker 2: the outside world in a lot of ways. This is

708
00:41:10,885 --> 00:41:14,045
Speaker 2: clearly just my opinion, but I honestly think that there

709
00:41:14,125 --> 00:41:16,765
Speaker 2: was just so much hidden that they were just like, oh, hi,

710
00:41:17,485 --> 00:41:21,205
Speaker 2: let's not I think they also knew that I have

711
00:41:21,485 --> 00:41:25,125
Speaker 2: perception as well, and like I've got discernment and so like,

712
00:41:25,165 --> 00:41:26,805
Speaker 2: if I could tell something was off, then I could

713
00:41:26,805 --> 00:41:27,765
Speaker 2: tell something was off, you know.

714
00:41:28,045 --> 00:41:31,885
Speaker 1: But quite likely they'd been warned about you because you

715
00:41:31,925 --> 00:41:33,365
Speaker 1: were perceived to be Yeah.

716
00:41:33,405 --> 00:41:38,285
Speaker 2: That too. That too because I wasn't necessarily as godly

717
00:41:38,485 --> 00:41:41,165
Speaker 2: as maybe they would have wanted me to be. Yeah,

718
00:41:41,205 --> 00:41:44,845
Speaker 2: I was considered maybe not someone that would understand their

719
00:41:44,925 --> 00:41:47,885
Speaker 2: role in life and the way they presented themselves and

720
00:41:47,925 --> 00:41:50,125
Speaker 2: all of that. I tried my hardest, though.

721
00:41:50,165 --> 00:41:50,925
Speaker 1: You sure died.

722
00:41:51,205 --> 00:41:54,485
Speaker 2: I just show them love and to be the cousin

723
00:41:54,845 --> 00:41:57,965
Speaker 2: to them and try to introduce them to different things.

724
00:41:57,965 --> 00:42:01,245
Speaker 2: You know. I would do cheerleading on the trampoline and

725
00:42:01,285 --> 00:42:03,725
Speaker 2: teach them like secret cheerleading.

726
00:42:03,245 --> 00:42:04,965
Speaker 1: Moves and no dancing.

727
00:42:05,125 --> 00:42:09,845
Speaker 2: No dancing, but you know cheering like that's okay. Oh

728
00:42:09,885 --> 00:42:12,645
Speaker 2: and I taught them like how to straighten their hair.

729
00:42:13,165 --> 00:42:15,325
Speaker 1: You had to get special permission for that, didn't you.

730
00:42:15,645 --> 00:42:20,005
Speaker 2: I did. Yes, Yeah, that was something that I was like, listen,

731
00:42:20,325 --> 00:42:22,405
Speaker 2: if they can't cut their hair, at least give them

732
00:42:22,725 --> 00:42:25,685
Speaker 2: another option to style it, you know, kind of thing.

733
00:42:26,165 --> 00:42:30,645
Speaker 2: I loved them. I love I still do, you know. Yeah,

734
00:42:30,685 --> 00:42:32,925
Speaker 2: my book is not written out of bitterness, not even

735
00:42:32,965 --> 00:42:35,685
Speaker 2: a little bit. You know, I have no bitterness towards

736
00:42:35,725 --> 00:42:40,165
Speaker 2: my family at all. It's just I'm a truth seeker

737
00:42:40,685 --> 00:42:43,525
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to put up with lies. And

738
00:42:43,765 --> 00:42:45,085
Speaker 2: I don't think the world should either.

739
00:42:45,525 --> 00:42:50,645
Speaker 1: So that is your compulsion to tell the truth. Yeah,

740
00:42:51,285 --> 00:42:52,245
Speaker 1: is a big driver.

741
00:42:52,725 --> 00:42:53,965
Speaker 2: It is a big driver.

742
00:42:54,525 --> 00:42:58,085
Speaker 1: At what point did you realize you couldn't, you couldn't

743
00:42:58,125 --> 00:43:03,445
Speaker 1: protect the family and protect the truth. What was that moment?

744
00:43:04,005 --> 00:43:07,965
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really crazy thing. So you would think

745
00:43:08,005 --> 00:43:13,805
Speaker 2: it had been the first scandal, right, but it actually wasn't.

746
00:43:14,285 --> 00:43:19,085
Speaker 2: You have to understand that my family forgive and forget quickly, right,

747
00:43:19,445 --> 00:43:23,165
Speaker 2: You're told that that's godly to do. So that's what

748
00:43:23,245 --> 00:43:27,645
Speaker 2: I did. That's what I did, and so I saw

749
00:43:27,725 --> 00:43:31,125
Speaker 2: everyone else. This is years later after the first scandal,

750
00:43:31,565 --> 00:43:34,285
Speaker 2: and this second scandal, the Ashley Madison scandal as well,

751
00:43:34,405 --> 00:43:35,845
Speaker 2: happened all around the same time.

752
00:43:36,005 --> 00:43:39,325
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, tell me about the Ashley Madison scandal.

753
00:43:39,445 --> 00:43:43,445
Speaker 2: Oh, that one is just awful. The Ashley Madison scandal

754
00:43:43,485 --> 00:43:47,525
Speaker 2: is actually like the stupidest thing. There's a website called

755
00:43:47,845 --> 00:43:52,205
Speaker 2: Ashley Madison and the tagline is life is too short,

756
00:43:52,405 --> 00:43:53,085
Speaker 2: Have an affair.

757
00:43:53,485 --> 00:43:54,805
Speaker 1: It was for married people.

758
00:43:54,965 --> 00:43:56,885
Speaker 2: It was for married people to have an affair and

759
00:43:56,965 --> 00:44:00,565
Speaker 2: to find people to cheat on, to cheat with, which

760
00:44:00,605 --> 00:44:02,085
Speaker 2: is absolutely disgusting.

761
00:44:02,365 --> 00:44:05,245
Speaker 1: And once again, Josh Daga.

762
00:44:05,005 --> 00:44:10,765
Speaker 2: He had two accounts. He used a famous picture and

763
00:44:10,925 --> 00:44:13,365
Speaker 2: used my grandma's address.

764
00:44:13,165 --> 00:44:15,605
Speaker 1: And this is while he was married to his wife Anna.

765
00:44:15,845 --> 00:44:17,125
Speaker 2: Yeah, while he was married.

766
00:44:17,285 --> 00:44:19,205
Speaker 1: And how did that scandal come.

767
00:44:19,045 --> 00:44:24,325
Speaker 2: Out on the TV as well? On the TV as well? Wow,

768
00:44:24,445 --> 00:44:27,885
Speaker 2: we had no idea, We had no idea that even existed.

769
00:44:28,005 --> 00:44:31,205
Speaker 2: I didn't know what Ashley Madison website was. I mean,

770
00:44:31,845 --> 00:44:34,485
Speaker 2: oh my goodness, but there was a huge data breach

771
00:44:34,965 --> 00:44:38,925
Speaker 2: and so Ashley Madison had a huge data breach and

772
00:44:39,245 --> 00:44:42,325
Speaker 2: every name on there came out, So it wasn't just

773
00:44:42,445 --> 00:44:46,205
Speaker 2: my cousins. It was everybody's thousands and thousands of names

774
00:44:46,245 --> 00:44:52,645
Speaker 2: came out. Pastors, all kinds of fathers, dads, priests, whatever,

775
00:44:53,045 --> 00:44:56,365
Speaker 2: they all came out. It's just so sad that so

776
00:44:56,485 --> 00:45:01,485
Speaker 2: many people live a double life. It was just it's

777
00:45:01,605 --> 00:45:02,525
Speaker 2: disgusting to me.

778
00:45:02,925 --> 00:45:05,525
Speaker 1: So it was after the Ashley Madison scandal that you went,

779
00:45:05,805 --> 00:45:08,085
Speaker 1: I can serve the truth, or I can serve the

780
00:45:08,125 --> 00:45:10,765
Speaker 1: family or was they something further? What had happened?

781
00:45:11,005 --> 00:45:14,685
Speaker 2: It still better than that. It still wasn't. It still

782
00:45:14,725 --> 00:45:17,405
Speaker 2: wasn't because I was just like, well, because I in

783
00:45:17,445 --> 00:45:21,565
Speaker 2: my heart, I should back up. I confronted Josh. I

784
00:45:21,645 --> 00:45:26,405
Speaker 2: confronted Josh. I went to see him. After the whole

785
00:45:27,005 --> 00:45:32,445
Speaker 2: sister scandal, awful stuff came out. I was like, why

786
00:45:32,565 --> 00:45:35,205
Speaker 2: is where's the truth? What's going on? What's the real story?

787
00:45:35,205 --> 00:45:37,565
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah. I was hearing all kinds of different stories.

788
00:45:38,165 --> 00:45:42,565
Speaker 2: So I went and discussed it with Josh head on.

789
00:45:42,925 --> 00:45:45,045
Speaker 1: Where were you? Where did you go find him?

790
00:45:45,405 --> 00:45:48,445
Speaker 2: I found him in the RV that was about, I

791
00:45:48,445 --> 00:45:50,085
Speaker 2: don't know, very close to the home.

792
00:45:50,525 --> 00:45:52,805
Speaker 1: So had he been banished from the house and he

793
00:45:52,885 --> 00:45:54,045
Speaker 1: was living in this RVEY.

794
00:45:54,405 --> 00:45:57,165
Speaker 2: He was living out there. Yeah, I don't know much

795
00:45:57,205 --> 00:46:01,285
Speaker 2: information about why. I have my reasons, but yes, I

796
00:46:01,325 --> 00:46:03,645
Speaker 2: went out there and I just looked at him, dead

797
00:46:03,765 --> 00:46:08,165
Speaker 2: in the face, and I was just like, how long

798
00:46:08,205 --> 00:46:11,965
Speaker 2: has this been going on? You know, all the questions?

799
00:46:12,165 --> 00:46:15,165
Speaker 2: And he was dead, silent for a really long time,

800
00:46:16,365 --> 00:46:18,805
Speaker 2: and it was making me more mad and more mad

801
00:46:19,005 --> 00:46:19,725
Speaker 2: and more mad.

802
00:46:20,125 --> 00:46:20,325
Speaker 1: You know.

803
00:46:20,365 --> 00:46:23,565
Speaker 2: It was a taking time bomb. And I finally asked

804
00:46:23,645 --> 00:46:28,805
Speaker 2: him one one specific question and I got the answer

805
00:46:28,845 --> 00:46:31,725
Speaker 2: that I didn't want to get. And in that moment,

806
00:46:32,445 --> 00:46:37,885
Speaker 2: I realized, I am walking away from this house and

807
00:46:37,965 --> 00:46:40,045
Speaker 2: I am never probably coming back.

808
00:46:40,725 --> 00:46:44,525
Speaker 1: Was that question when you said to him, why did

809
00:46:44,565 --> 00:46:48,125
Speaker 1: you never do it to me? Was that that question? Yeah?

810
00:46:48,405 --> 00:46:50,085
Speaker 1: And what did he say?

811
00:46:50,845 --> 00:46:53,005
Speaker 2: I didn't want to feel like a martyr. It's not like,

812
00:46:53,205 --> 00:46:55,645
Speaker 2: you know, it's not like, oh, like I'm this warrior,

813
00:46:55,845 --> 00:46:57,605
Speaker 2: Like how come you didn't do it to me? You know?

814
00:46:57,965 --> 00:47:01,285
Speaker 2: But I wondered, because why not me?

815
00:47:02,165 --> 00:47:02,565
Speaker 1: Why not?

816
00:47:03,085 --> 00:47:05,965
Speaker 2: And I wanted to know because my personality is just

817
00:47:06,085 --> 00:47:10,285
Speaker 2: so different than the girls. And he looked me, and

818
00:47:10,885 --> 00:47:12,805
Speaker 2: I mean it took forever him to him to look up,

819
00:47:12,845 --> 00:47:16,565
Speaker 2: and it wasn't immediate. He looked at me and with

820
00:47:16,685 --> 00:47:20,485
Speaker 2: like a really creepy smile. He said, I knew better.

821
00:47:21,525 --> 00:47:25,605
Speaker 2: And you know, that's like a knife to the heart

822
00:47:26,405 --> 00:47:32,405
Speaker 2: to know that a predator knows knew who to prey

823
00:47:32,445 --> 00:47:35,245
Speaker 2: on and who what are the girls that are going

824
00:47:35,325 --> 00:47:38,285
Speaker 2: to be silent and not say anything and be in

825
00:47:38,365 --> 00:47:42,365
Speaker 2: pain and not not reach out for help. They can't,

826
00:47:42,485 --> 00:47:46,925
Speaker 2: they feel silenced. And he knew, he knew in his

827
00:47:47,085 --> 00:47:50,325
Speaker 2: heart that I would have raised hell, he knew it.

828
00:47:50,445 --> 00:47:53,525
Speaker 1: And also that was at odds with what the family's

829
00:47:53,605 --> 00:47:56,725
Speaker 1: narrative was, which that his father. When you listen to

830
00:47:56,725 --> 00:47:59,285
Speaker 1: his father's language, he's still soft of heart and we

831
00:47:59,365 --> 00:48:02,925
Speaker 1: can help him, and he's very contrite and he's repentant.

832
00:48:04,045 --> 00:48:06,645
Speaker 1: You saw in that moment that none of that was true,

833
00:48:07,125 --> 00:48:09,325
Speaker 1: and you saw the calculating mind of a preyer.

834
00:48:10,005 --> 00:48:12,965
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was the most scariest moment because I looked

835
00:48:13,005 --> 00:48:14,885
Speaker 2: at him. I have someone I grew up with my

836
00:48:15,085 --> 00:48:18,525
Speaker 2: entire life, and I realized in that moment, I don't

837
00:48:18,605 --> 00:48:21,565
Speaker 2: know this person at all. Who is this person? This

838
00:48:21,685 --> 00:48:26,645
Speaker 2: is demonic and scary and evil and someone that I

839
00:48:26,765 --> 00:48:29,965
Speaker 2: will not have in my life. And I won't have

840
00:48:30,005 --> 00:48:31,805
Speaker 2: anyone that lies to me in my life. You know,

841
00:48:31,845 --> 00:48:34,845
Speaker 2: if someone lies to you, Kate, they don't love you,

842
00:48:34,965 --> 00:48:38,005
Speaker 2: they don't respect you, they don't you know, You're like

843
00:48:38,045 --> 00:48:40,365
Speaker 2: a pawn in a chess game and they just move

844
00:48:40,405 --> 00:48:43,125
Speaker 2: around to control and manipulate and do whatever they can

845
00:48:43,565 --> 00:48:46,645
Speaker 2: and to fit their narrative. But their narrative that they're

846
00:48:46,685 --> 00:48:48,925
Speaker 2: shit sharing to the world. And this could be any

847
00:48:49,045 --> 00:48:52,165
Speaker 2: this could be anyone. It's not true. It's not true.

848
00:48:52,205 --> 00:48:55,365
Speaker 2: When the words and actions match up, that's when it's truth.

849
00:48:56,445 --> 00:48:58,365
Speaker 2: And so for me, in that moment, I didn't want

850
00:48:58,405 --> 00:49:01,885
Speaker 2: to feel like a superhero, but I left. They might

851
00:49:02,125 --> 00:49:04,605
Speaker 2: not have liked, you know how I was there in

852
00:49:04,645 --> 00:49:10,445
Speaker 2: that moment, but I left feeling like a superhero confronted evil.

853
00:49:11,685 --> 00:49:16,485
Speaker 2: I said my truth. I said I'm not gonna this

854
00:49:16,525 --> 00:49:19,325
Speaker 2: is something I'm not gonna allow in my life. And

855
00:49:19,405 --> 00:49:22,925
Speaker 2: in that moment I put up boundaries that have since

856
00:49:22,965 --> 00:49:24,125
Speaker 2: then never been crossed.

857
00:49:24,285 --> 00:49:27,645
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you say also in your book, which

858
00:49:27,685 --> 00:49:32,845
Speaker 1: is a very interesting analysis of how predatory and abusive

859
00:49:32,885 --> 00:49:37,085
Speaker 1: behavior happens, and you say this, which is so wise.

860
00:49:37,245 --> 00:49:43,005
Speaker 1: You say, abuses often start subtly probing for boundaries and

861
00:49:43,045 --> 00:49:46,445
Speaker 1: observing their victims' reactions, and then you sort of go

862
00:49:46,485 --> 00:49:49,005
Speaker 1: on to say that if they don't encounter resistance, then

863
00:49:49,045 --> 00:49:51,205
Speaker 1: they know oh.

864
00:49:50,925 --> 00:49:54,125
Speaker 2: And they know, yeah, Oh, you're easy to manipulate, You're

865
00:49:54,125 --> 00:49:57,165
Speaker 2: easy to control, and I can have power over you.

866
00:49:57,685 --> 00:50:02,325
Speaker 1: And yet the father of the nineteen Dagger family, Jim Bob,

867
00:50:02,965 --> 00:50:05,765
Speaker 1: still exerts power over that family.

868
00:50:06,125 --> 00:50:10,085
Speaker 2: Those are your words, not mine, but I I will

869
00:50:10,085 --> 00:50:12,525
Speaker 2: definitely say that I don't think you were wrong in

870
00:50:12,565 --> 00:50:13,205
Speaker 2: that statement.

871
00:50:13,725 --> 00:50:17,325
Speaker 1: Do you think that there's ever any chance that any

872
00:50:17,365 --> 00:50:21,485
Speaker 1: of the others will have a reckoning? Like, how do

873
00:50:22,765 --> 00:50:25,685
Speaker 1: they process the fact that their eldest brother is in jail?

874
00:50:26,005 --> 00:50:29,125
Speaker 2: I have no idea. Your guess is as good as mine.

875
00:50:29,285 --> 00:50:32,405
Speaker 2: I honestly have no idea. When I left that day

876
00:50:32,565 --> 00:50:37,005
Speaker 2: from my cousin's home. I haven't spoken to them since then.

877
00:50:37,565 --> 00:50:41,565
Speaker 2: They've never reached out, and I've never reached out either.

878
00:50:42,045 --> 00:50:47,245
Speaker 2: And it's a boundary that I won't cross, especially given

879
00:50:47,725 --> 00:50:51,165
Speaker 2: you the most disgusting, saddest news of all of Why

880
00:50:51,165 --> 00:50:54,165
Speaker 2: he's in prison now? I will protect my child more

881
00:50:54,205 --> 00:50:54,805
Speaker 2: than anything.

882
00:50:55,165 --> 00:50:56,645
Speaker 1: Why is he in prison now?

883
00:50:57,045 --> 00:51:02,085
Speaker 2: He had a child abuse material found on his I

884
00:51:02,085 --> 00:51:07,765
Speaker 2: don't know, laptop or phone or whatever. Illegal disgusting lows

885
00:51:07,805 --> 00:51:11,245
Speaker 2: to the low content. I can't wrap my head around it.

886
00:51:12,125 --> 00:51:13,445
Speaker 2: I seriously cannot.

887
00:51:14,125 --> 00:51:19,085
Speaker 1: And even when I don't, can't remember which law enforcement

888
00:51:19,365 --> 00:51:28,005
Speaker 1: armities Homeland right, Homeland Security conducted a raid on him

889
00:51:28,045 --> 00:51:30,525
Speaker 1: at his work at a car wash where he was

890
00:51:30,565 --> 00:51:32,085
Speaker 1: working a car lot.

891
00:51:32,885 --> 00:51:35,765
Speaker 2: They own a car lot, they're yeah, they're on their

892
00:51:35,805 --> 00:51:37,565
Speaker 2: own car dealership, right.

893
00:51:39,205 --> 00:51:42,205
Speaker 1: And even then his dad was lying about why that

894
00:51:42,285 --> 00:51:45,605
Speaker 1: had happened, yes, saying they went to the wrong address,

895
00:51:45,765 --> 00:51:47,045
Speaker 1: they were looking for someone else.

896
00:51:47,165 --> 00:51:50,645
Speaker 2: Yeah, those lies, in my book are a span of weeks.

897
00:51:51,045 --> 00:51:54,205
Speaker 2: Those didn't just happen all at one time. We asked

898
00:51:54,245 --> 00:51:57,125
Speaker 2: several times if there was truth to anything that was

899
00:51:57,165 --> 00:52:01,885
Speaker 2: being told, anything on TV. I even pleaded honestly with

900
00:52:02,005 --> 00:52:04,565
Speaker 2: my uncle and I told him, I said, please, don't

901
00:52:04,605 --> 00:52:07,925
Speaker 2: let us be ambushed. We've been ambushed twice on the television.

902
00:52:08,365 --> 00:52:10,645
Speaker 2: Please if there's some thing to this, let us know.

903
00:52:10,805 --> 00:52:12,885
Speaker 2: And he was like, oh, yeah, there isn't. There's no

904
00:52:12,965 --> 00:52:18,405
Speaker 2: truth to any of this. And in that moment it

905
00:52:18,525 --> 00:52:24,565
Speaker 2: was the same response, almost robotic, if you will, that

906
00:52:24,685 --> 00:52:27,325
Speaker 2: I knew that that couldn't probably be the truth.

907
00:52:27,525 --> 00:52:29,045
Speaker 1: But he looked to you straight in the eye.

908
00:52:29,205 --> 00:52:31,965
Speaker 2: This was on the phone the first time that was

909
00:52:32,005 --> 00:52:36,805
Speaker 2: seid st in the straight in the ear, and I

910
00:52:37,045 --> 00:52:39,565
Speaker 2: just like listened to it and I was like, I've

911
00:52:39,605 --> 00:52:43,725
Speaker 2: heard I've heard this before. I've heard this exact line before,

912
00:52:44,365 --> 00:52:48,245
Speaker 2: And unfortunately I don't want to be right. I hate it.

913
00:52:48,285 --> 00:52:49,885
Speaker 2: I hate the fact that I have to have these

914
00:52:49,925 --> 00:52:52,845
Speaker 2: boundaries in place. But I, like I said, I'll do

915
00:52:52,925 --> 00:52:55,765
Speaker 2: everything in my power to protect my peace and my

916
00:52:55,885 --> 00:53:00,205
Speaker 2: mindset and my mental health and and my little my

917
00:53:00,285 --> 00:53:04,645
Speaker 2: little family and my son and my mom. I will

918
00:53:04,685 --> 00:53:07,965
Speaker 2: protect my mom more than anything. And so I'm like

919
00:53:07,965 --> 00:53:10,445
Speaker 2: a mama bear all the way around. And so it's

920
00:53:10,485 --> 00:53:13,965
Speaker 2: not even just my own child, it's every child, you know.

921
00:53:14,485 --> 00:53:17,205
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, if I could adopt them all, I would.

922
00:53:17,965 --> 00:53:21,485
Speaker 2: I have such a heart for them. And so yeah,

923
00:53:21,485 --> 00:53:23,765
Speaker 2: it just breaks my heart for anyone that can hurt.

924
00:53:24,125 --> 00:53:27,445
Speaker 1: In your book, speaking of children as a child, you

925
00:53:27,485 --> 00:53:33,165
Speaker 1: talk about you lying under the trampoline and longing for peace.

926
00:53:33,685 --> 00:53:39,365
Speaker 1: I did. And you say you thought peace then was silence,

927
00:53:40,765 --> 00:53:42,885
Speaker 1: but you've since realized what pieces.

928
00:53:44,045 --> 00:53:50,445
Speaker 2: I've realized that peace is disrupting toxic cycles. That's how

929
00:53:50,485 --> 00:53:53,125
Speaker 2: you have peace. It's not silence and being quiet and

930
00:53:53,205 --> 00:53:55,685
Speaker 2: just letting go with the flow. And not you know,

931
00:53:55,845 --> 00:53:58,965
Speaker 2: standing up for what you believe. It's it's not it's

932
00:53:59,005 --> 00:54:02,285
Speaker 2: not just you know, churning your head and pretend it's

933
00:54:02,285 --> 00:54:06,085
Speaker 2: not there and avoiding it. And that's not peace. What

934
00:54:06,245 --> 00:54:10,165
Speaker 2: peace is saying like it ends with me. It's stopping

935
00:54:10,205 --> 00:54:14,965
Speaker 2: in my generation. This will not continue in future generations

936
00:54:15,405 --> 00:54:18,765
Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned and standing up for what

937
00:54:18,845 --> 00:54:19,205
Speaker 2: is right.

938
00:54:19,805 --> 00:54:21,805
Speaker 1: So when you look at now the life that you've

939
00:54:21,805 --> 00:54:25,365
Speaker 1: built with your husband and your son, Dacks, do you

940
00:54:26,605 --> 00:54:29,685
Speaker 1: think that you have built the life that you dreamt

941
00:54:29,725 --> 00:54:31,925
Speaker 1: off under the trampoline?

942
00:54:32,325 --> 00:54:36,725
Speaker 2: My goodness, you're gonna make me cry. God is good

943
00:54:36,845 --> 00:54:39,445
Speaker 2: like that. I feel like he's a he loves to

944
00:54:39,525 --> 00:54:44,405
Speaker 2: restore and I feel like, yes, I believe so. I

945
00:54:44,445 --> 00:54:47,925
Speaker 2: don't know if you can hear anything behind me, but

946
00:54:48,165 --> 00:54:50,405
Speaker 2: this is my house. This is just where I live

947
00:54:50,525 --> 00:54:55,205
Speaker 2: and where I you know, do life. And it's I

948
00:54:55,285 --> 00:54:58,525
Speaker 2: did give you just a picture of it. My son

949
00:54:58,605 --> 00:55:01,005
Speaker 2: loves to cook, so he cooks with daddy, you know,

950
00:55:01,165 --> 00:55:02,245
Speaker 2: on Sunday brunch.

951
00:55:02,445 --> 00:55:03,925
Speaker 1: How old is Dax now?

952
00:55:04,165 --> 00:55:08,125
Speaker 2: He just turns six? Okay, there is just there's a

953
00:55:08,325 --> 00:55:13,565
Speaker 2: real real about my little family. And my mom is

954
00:55:13,605 --> 00:55:17,085
Speaker 2: safe here and secure and she can heal and process

955
00:55:17,205 --> 00:55:20,845
Speaker 2: and work through things. And we have each other now,

956
00:55:21,125 --> 00:55:23,245
Speaker 2: you know, and it's just such a beautiful thing.

957
00:55:23,885 --> 00:55:28,405
Speaker 1: If JLSE came to you and said we want to

958
00:55:28,445 --> 00:55:30,725
Speaker 1: make a reality show, what would you say?

959
00:55:31,485 --> 00:55:34,205
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. I think there'd be a lot of

960
00:55:34,285 --> 00:55:39,565
Speaker 2: questions before I ever did another reality show. I don't

961
00:55:39,685 --> 00:55:43,045
Speaker 2: know if that's even a possibility, but I will just

962
00:55:43,125 --> 00:55:47,325
Speaker 2: say that whatever I do, no matter what project it is,

963
00:55:47,725 --> 00:55:52,125
Speaker 2: no matter what it is, I'm going to be as

964
00:55:52,245 --> 00:55:55,565
Speaker 2: real as I am right now. And if there is

965
00:55:56,445 --> 00:55:59,365
Speaker 2: the you know, I can't say my husband and I

966
00:55:59,405 --> 00:56:03,485
Speaker 2: never argue, right, because that's not real. Everyone has tifts,

967
00:56:04,085 --> 00:56:06,045
Speaker 2: and so I would just want it to be real.

968
00:56:06,125 --> 00:56:09,605
Speaker 2: I wanted to show real marriage, real parenting, you know,

969
00:56:09,885 --> 00:56:13,685
Speaker 2: real everything, and the ups and downs of what it

970
00:56:13,725 --> 00:56:17,645
Speaker 2: really looks like in my family. And so yeah, I'm

971
00:56:17,685 --> 00:56:20,805
Speaker 2: not against it, but I would definitely want to make

972
00:56:20,845 --> 00:56:24,165
Speaker 2: sure that it's like Kardashians who love Jesus, you.

973
00:56:24,125 --> 00:56:27,925
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, right, Yeah, And that the skeletons in the closet.

974
00:56:28,485 --> 00:56:31,565
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no skeletons in the closet. There's some Halloween decor.

975
00:56:31,765 --> 00:56:32,365
Speaker 2: That's about it.

976
00:56:32,525 --> 00:56:36,565
Speaker 1: Yeah, Ron, you still have the name Daga. You're Amy

977
00:56:36,645 --> 00:56:37,285
Speaker 1: Douga King.

978
00:56:37,805 --> 00:56:41,125
Speaker 2: Yeah, actually I'm not. My middle name is Rochelle. My

979
00:56:41,205 --> 00:56:45,165
Speaker 2: name is Amy Rochelle King. The Dugger name is my

980
00:56:45,285 --> 00:56:49,325
Speaker 2: maiden name. Though when I was in elementary school, my

981
00:56:49,445 --> 00:56:52,085
Speaker 2: name was Amy Dugger. My mom and dad had me

982
00:56:52,125 --> 00:56:55,045
Speaker 2: at a wedlock. My mom's maiden name was Dougger, and

983
00:56:55,125 --> 00:56:58,565
Speaker 2: then I got Dugger name. So I've never changed my

984
00:56:58,725 --> 00:57:00,885
Speaker 2: name in order to be more liked or to be

985
00:57:00,925 --> 00:57:05,005
Speaker 2: more accepted in the family. But for the book purposes,

986
00:57:05,365 --> 00:57:08,165
Speaker 2: they were like, people are going to recognize the Dugger

987
00:57:08,285 --> 00:57:11,365
Speaker 2: name because that's who you used to be. You used

988
00:57:11,405 --> 00:57:13,685
Speaker 2: to beat Amy Dugger and then you got married. And

989
00:57:13,725 --> 00:57:15,725
Speaker 2: so I was like, okay, okay, yes we can put

990
00:57:15,765 --> 00:57:18,045
Speaker 2: that in there because it makes sense. People knew me

991
00:57:18,085 --> 00:57:21,725
Speaker 2: as Amy Duggar for years before I got married.

992
00:57:21,525 --> 00:57:27,205
Speaker 1: Of course, on a very successful, highly lucrative TV show.

993
00:57:27,285 --> 00:57:30,525
Speaker 1: So I have to ask you this, Amy Dugger, you

994
00:57:30,605 --> 00:57:34,405
Speaker 1: must have made a fortune being on a TV show.

995
00:57:34,965 --> 00:57:38,725
Speaker 2: Well, if I did, if there was any kind of compensation,

996
00:57:39,045 --> 00:57:40,285
Speaker 2: I never saw it.

997
00:57:40,285 --> 00:57:45,285
Speaker 1: It is the most extraordinary thing when I read that, Yeah,

998
00:57:45,325 --> 00:57:48,845
Speaker 1: and your conversation with your uncle saying and it was

999
00:57:48,885 --> 00:57:52,925
Speaker 1: when you were, you know, distancing yourself from the family. Yes,

1000
00:57:53,125 --> 00:57:56,445
Speaker 1: and things had come to a natural, unnatural end with

1001
00:57:56,485 --> 00:58:06,805
Speaker 1: the show. You never received any financial recompense for your

1002
00:58:06,885 --> 00:58:08,005
Speaker 1: work on that show.

1003
00:58:08,725 --> 00:58:11,925
Speaker 2: I had a conversation with my uncle before the last huge,

1004
00:58:12,005 --> 00:58:16,485
Speaker 2: disgusting scandal happened, and he did write me a check.

1005
00:58:16,965 --> 00:58:19,965
Speaker 2: I talk about it in the book. But during the show,

1006
00:58:20,085 --> 00:58:23,085
Speaker 2: and during the whole filming of the show, I never

1007
00:58:23,165 --> 00:58:25,405
Speaker 2: received any kind of compensation whatsoever.

1008
00:58:25,805 --> 00:58:27,445
Speaker 1: And even when he wrote you the check, it was

1009
00:58:27,525 --> 00:58:34,445
Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars. And then Jill has since revealed that

1010
00:58:34,725 --> 00:58:41,685
Speaker 1: he made from that show eight million dollars. Yeah, did

1011
00:58:41,765 --> 00:58:43,805
Speaker 1: he As far as you know, did any of the

1012
00:58:43,885 --> 00:58:48,765
Speaker 1: kids receive any of the cut of that or does

1013
00:58:48,765 --> 00:58:50,085
Speaker 1: it all go to the umbrella?

1014
00:58:50,325 --> 00:58:53,605
Speaker 2: In my opinion, it all goes to the umbrella. That's

1015
00:58:53,645 --> 00:58:57,445
Speaker 2: been a hard one to swallow, you know, just just

1016
00:58:57,485 --> 00:59:02,925
Speaker 2: because like we all worked, there was hours of interviews,

1017
00:59:03,045 --> 00:59:06,645
Speaker 2: there was it was work, regardless if you think or not.

1018
00:59:06,805 --> 00:59:09,885
Speaker 2: It was a reality show. Yes, but there's care and

1019
00:59:10,205 --> 00:59:13,125
Speaker 2: it's exhausting. You're always on, you know, you can't just

1020
00:59:13,165 --> 00:59:15,885
Speaker 2: be yourself, not be yourself, but you're you're always on.

1021
00:59:15,925 --> 00:59:20,485
Speaker 2: You're aware there's cameras, you know, and so I definitely

1022
00:59:20,485 --> 00:59:23,445
Speaker 2: believe that we deserved more, all of us did, every

1023
00:59:23,485 --> 00:59:24,325
Speaker 2: single one of us.

1024
00:59:25,205 --> 00:59:27,445
Speaker 1: So I understand that the Doug A name is such

1025
00:59:27,445 --> 00:59:30,565
Speaker 1: a recognizable one. People are going to pick up the

1026
00:59:30,685 --> 00:59:34,325
Speaker 1: book because they know you, they recognize the name. But

1027
00:59:34,405 --> 00:59:37,365
Speaker 1: what does that name mean to you? Now?

1028
00:59:37,525 --> 00:59:46,005
Speaker 2: It's a really good question, I think For me, I

1029
00:59:46,045 --> 00:59:48,645
Speaker 2: don't know. I feel like for me, it just reminds

1030
00:59:48,685 --> 00:59:55,205
Speaker 2: me of the questions, the lies, the secrets, the things

1031
00:59:55,205 --> 00:59:58,965
Speaker 2: that were never told. It's kind of stained in my opinion.

1032
00:59:59,685 --> 01:00:03,245
Speaker 2: And so I love the fact that now my name

1033
01:00:03,325 --> 01:00:06,285
Speaker 2: is Amy King. It's like a new beginning, It's a

1034
01:00:06,325 --> 01:00:07,085
Speaker 2: new chapter.

1035
01:00:07,445 --> 01:00:07,645
Speaker 1: You know.

1036
01:00:07,725 --> 01:00:10,565
Speaker 2: People can they can I know the story, they can

1037
01:00:10,645 --> 01:00:13,645
Speaker 2: know what's happening, they can know, you know, my backstory,

1038
01:00:13,645 --> 01:00:16,725
Speaker 2: of course, But I hope the Amy that they saw

1039
01:00:16,805 --> 01:00:20,445
Speaker 2: on TV is so different from the Amy that they

1040
01:00:20,485 --> 01:00:23,765
Speaker 2: see now. In what way, I just have done the

1041
01:00:23,805 --> 01:00:29,645
Speaker 2: hard work of healing, working through just so much chaos.

1042
01:00:29,845 --> 01:00:32,525
Speaker 2: You know, I believe that God is not the author

1043
01:00:32,565 --> 01:00:36,685
Speaker 2: of confusion, and that's all I lived in for the

1044
01:00:36,805 --> 01:00:41,045
Speaker 2: longest time. And so now you know, I'm almost forty,

1045
01:00:41,645 --> 01:00:47,925
Speaker 2: I'm like thirty thirty nine, and I'm just I really

1046
01:00:48,205 --> 01:00:52,645
Speaker 2: like the slow pace of life and the peacefulness that

1047
01:00:52,685 --> 01:00:55,205
Speaker 2: it brings when you tell the truth and you just

1048
01:00:55,845 --> 01:00:58,285
Speaker 2: you know, cut the power cord of someone that's trying

1049
01:00:58,325 --> 01:00:59,525
Speaker 2: to control and manipulate.

1050
01:01:00,165 --> 01:01:04,765
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of control and manipulate, how should the Institute

1051
01:01:04,885 --> 01:01:09,205
Speaker 1: of Basic Life Principles be viewed? Now? Do you think?

1052
01:01:09,605 --> 01:01:10,925
Speaker 1: And how do you view them?

1053
01:01:11,205 --> 01:01:14,325
Speaker 2: Yeah? Great question. In my opinion, I view them as

1054
01:01:14,485 --> 01:01:19,725
Speaker 2: a cult. It's a leader that you know, promises to

1055
01:01:19,765 --> 01:01:22,405
Speaker 2: have a care free and that God's going to protect

1056
01:01:22,405 --> 01:01:25,125
Speaker 2: you no matter what as long as you follow these principles.

1057
01:01:25,725 --> 01:01:28,925
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of sad and sickening things about

1058
01:01:28,925 --> 01:01:33,165
Speaker 2: the IVLP. In my eyes, they don't protect children. They don't.

1059
01:01:33,685 --> 01:01:36,485
Speaker 2: You can see it. You know, my family is on

1060
01:01:36,565 --> 01:01:40,725
Speaker 2: TV and people know the headlines and the really sad

1061
01:01:41,365 --> 01:01:46,085
Speaker 2: scandals that's happened. But there are probably thousands of families

1062
01:01:46,765 --> 01:01:51,085
Speaker 2: that are in the IVLP that have the exact same story.

1063
01:01:51,565 --> 01:01:54,685
Speaker 2: It just wasn't a headline news, you know.

1064
01:01:54,725 --> 01:01:58,165
Speaker 1: When the headlines came out. Did the church leadership have

1065
01:01:58,285 --> 01:02:00,565
Speaker 1: any official intervention?

1066
01:02:01,725 --> 01:02:05,605
Speaker 2: No? In my opinion as well, I believe they went

1067
01:02:05,725 --> 01:02:09,685
Speaker 2: radio silence. I truly believe that it's a breeding ground

1068
01:02:09,805 --> 01:02:13,085
Speaker 2: for all kinds of abuse and crimes. Did you know

1069
01:02:13,125 --> 01:02:16,885
Speaker 2: that they don't even allow their children to learn about

1070
01:02:17,085 --> 01:02:20,885
Speaker 2: the word abuse. The word abuse is not even a

1071
01:02:20,885 --> 01:02:24,245
Speaker 2: word that they can even know what it is. So

1072
01:02:24,325 --> 01:02:27,965
Speaker 2: if something were to happen within the home, or within

1073
01:02:28,365 --> 01:02:31,565
Speaker 2: a family camp, or wherever there is predators, because I

1074
01:02:31,605 --> 01:02:34,885
Speaker 2: guarantee you there are, they don't know what to even

1075
01:02:34,965 --> 01:02:38,125
Speaker 2: call it. Wow, it's really sad.

1076
01:02:38,565 --> 01:02:43,165
Speaker 1: You know, for those who are raised within institutions of

1077
01:02:43,245 --> 01:02:50,325
Speaker 1: control as you were. What does true freedom feel like?

1078
01:02:51,285 --> 01:02:57,045
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Kate, it is the most beautiful and

1079
01:02:57,285 --> 01:03:02,965
Speaker 2: wonderful thing. I don't take anything for granted anymore. I will, Like,

1080
01:03:03,245 --> 01:03:06,965
Speaker 2: just before our podcast, I just like sat outside on

1081
01:03:07,005 --> 01:03:10,125
Speaker 2: my patio and I just felt the warmth of the

1082
01:03:10,165 --> 01:03:13,565
Speaker 2: sun literally, and I was like, this is amazing. This

1083
01:03:13,685 --> 01:03:17,765
Speaker 2: is amazing because I grew up in so much chaos

1084
01:03:17,885 --> 01:03:23,445
Speaker 2: and turmoil and fear and control and manipulation and abuse

1085
01:03:23,965 --> 01:03:26,925
Speaker 2: that I didn't I didn't know that this kind of

1086
01:03:27,005 --> 01:03:29,765
Speaker 2: life is possible. I didn't know.

1087
01:03:30,605 --> 01:03:34,565
Speaker 1: How do you think you won that life for yourself?

1088
01:03:35,045 --> 01:03:37,725
Speaker 2: I think I had this rep toxic cycles and I

1089
01:03:37,725 --> 01:03:42,365
Speaker 2: had to break chains that were generational. I felt like, basically,

1090
01:03:42,565 --> 01:03:44,325
Speaker 2: just think of it like this. It's like having a

1091
01:03:44,325 --> 01:03:47,165
Speaker 2: big garden, right, and you see a lot of weeds

1092
01:03:47,765 --> 01:03:50,965
Speaker 2: right in this garden, and if you keep them there,

1093
01:03:51,125 --> 01:03:53,045
Speaker 2: they're going to overtake the garden.

1094
01:03:53,245 --> 01:03:53,485
Speaker 1: Right.

1095
01:03:54,325 --> 01:03:58,245
Speaker 2: You got to rip them out. You have to like

1096
01:03:58,365 --> 01:04:01,245
Speaker 2: stand up for yourself and say I want better for

1097
01:04:01,365 --> 01:04:04,325
Speaker 2: my life, and I want better for my child, and

1098
01:04:04,405 --> 01:04:08,205
Speaker 2: I want better for future generations. And you have to

1099
01:04:08,285 --> 01:04:12,805
Speaker 2: just yank out those from the root, right. And that's

1100
01:04:12,925 --> 01:04:14,205
Speaker 2: just really what I've had to do.

1101
01:04:15,725 --> 01:04:19,965
Speaker 1: Oh, crazy, cousin Aimy, if you're crazy, I don't want

1102
01:04:19,965 --> 01:04:20,685
Speaker 1: to be signed.

1103
01:04:22,405 --> 01:04:26,805
Speaker 2: I don't feel crazy at all. I feel very validated, insane,

1104
01:04:27,325 --> 01:04:30,725
Speaker 2: and it is a beautiful thing and you're a part

1105
01:04:30,725 --> 01:04:32,365
Speaker 2: of it, and I just want to say thank you.

1106
01:04:33,485 --> 01:04:35,765
Speaker 2: For a while there, I was silenced for a really

1107
01:04:35,805 --> 01:04:40,245
Speaker 2: long time, and I didn't think I had any self confidence.

1108
01:04:40,445 --> 01:04:42,365
Speaker 2: I felt like no one wanted to hear from me,

1109
01:04:42,445 --> 01:04:46,365
Speaker 2: no one cared. When I was offered this book, idea,

1110
01:04:47,485 --> 01:04:51,805
Speaker 2: I told my editor, I told like the president of HarperCollins, Okay,

1111
01:04:52,205 --> 01:04:54,245
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm gonna be really honest with you.

1112
01:04:54,685 --> 01:04:57,805
Speaker 2: I don't think people are going to read my story

1113
01:04:57,925 --> 01:05:00,645
Speaker 2: and she was like what, and I was like, I

1114
01:05:00,725 --> 01:05:03,765
Speaker 2: just I don't. I have a really hard time believing

1115
01:05:03,805 --> 01:05:06,525
Speaker 2: in myself. And she was like, I want you to

1116
01:05:06,605 --> 01:05:08,725
Speaker 2: take some time and I want you to pray about it,

1117
01:05:09,365 --> 01:05:12,565
Speaker 2: and I want you to really understand that your story

1118
01:05:12,605 --> 01:05:15,685
Speaker 2: can help so many people. And in that moment, I

1119
01:05:15,805 --> 01:05:19,205
Speaker 2: was just like, this is an open door that God

1120
01:05:19,245 --> 01:05:23,845
Speaker 2: has allowed to be opened, and I'm going to walk

1121
01:05:23,885 --> 01:05:25,925
Speaker 2: through it. I'm going to walk through it. I'm going

1122
01:05:26,005 --> 01:05:28,525
Speaker 2: to just trust the process. I'm going to walk through it.

1123
01:05:29,125 --> 01:05:32,085
Speaker 2: And I'm so glad that I did because it has

1124
01:05:32,165 --> 01:05:36,645
Speaker 2: led me to talk to the most amazing people. And

1125
01:05:36,805 --> 01:05:38,845
Speaker 2: I just hope for the people that are hearing this

1126
01:05:39,085 --> 01:05:42,605
Speaker 2: conversation that if you're struggling, if you're hurting, if you

1127
01:05:43,125 --> 01:05:46,405
Speaker 2: have toxic cycles in your family, if you're around a

1128
01:05:46,525 --> 01:05:50,325
Speaker 2: narcissistic person, educate yourself. I think that's one of the

1129
01:05:50,365 --> 01:05:54,085
Speaker 2: main things is educate yourself. Get to know how narcissistic

1130
01:05:54,125 --> 01:05:58,445
Speaker 2: people react and what charges them, and you know how

1131
01:05:58,445 --> 01:06:01,765
Speaker 2: they go about life, and then make the proper decisions

1132
01:06:01,885 --> 01:06:05,325
Speaker 2: that the boundaries that are going to just keep you safe.

1133
01:06:06,085 --> 01:06:10,245
Speaker 1: Purely hypothetical, but if one of the nineteen and counting

1134
01:06:10,725 --> 01:06:14,125
Speaker 1: was going to read your book? Who do you think

1135
01:06:14,165 --> 01:06:14,845
Speaker 1: it might be?

1136
01:06:15,525 --> 01:06:19,965
Speaker 2: Oh goodness, that's a good question. I hope they all do.

1137
01:06:20,845 --> 01:06:22,285
Speaker 1: But you know they're not going to.

1138
01:06:22,485 --> 01:06:23,405
Speaker 2: But they're not going.

1139
01:06:23,645 --> 01:06:30,925
Speaker 1: But who's the one who's most likely to slyly secretly

1140
01:06:32,445 --> 01:06:32,925
Speaker 1: your aunt?

1141
01:06:33,925 --> 01:06:36,725
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I hope so I would

1142
01:06:36,845 --> 01:06:39,485
Speaker 2: love for her to read my real story. I would love.

1143
01:06:39,805 --> 01:06:41,685
Speaker 2: I would love to connect with all of them. I

1144
01:06:41,685 --> 01:06:44,605
Speaker 2: have a very open door policy that if they ever

1145
01:06:44,685 --> 01:06:47,445
Speaker 2: have questions and they ever want to get to know

1146
01:06:47,885 --> 01:06:52,285
Speaker 2: the true me, the door is always open, and my

1147
01:06:52,365 --> 01:06:53,685
Speaker 2: heart goes out to them.

1148
01:06:54,285 --> 01:06:58,125
Speaker 1: Amy Douga King, thank you so much for joining us

1149
01:06:58,165 --> 01:06:58,845
Speaker 1: on No Filter.

1150
01:06:59,325 --> 01:06:59,765
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1151
01:07:01,405 --> 01:07:05,725
Speaker 1: That's a wow of a story. Amy Dougah King is

1152
01:07:05,885 --> 01:07:09,685
Speaker 1: so courageous, and she shows the kind of curry that

1153
01:07:09,845 --> 01:07:13,605
Speaker 1: I think isn't loud or showy, but it's the quiet,

1154
01:07:14,005 --> 01:07:18,565
Speaker 1: daily kind that comes from telling the truth, even when

1155
01:07:18,605 --> 01:07:25,365
Speaker 1: it costs you everything. Her memoir, Oh Holy Disruptor, isn't

1156
01:07:25,405 --> 01:07:28,965
Speaker 1: just about breaking away from family or a restrictive faith.

1157
01:07:29,365 --> 01:07:33,045
Speaker 1: It's actually about what it means to rebuild from the

1158
01:07:33,085 --> 01:07:37,925
Speaker 1: inside out, to question just about everything that you've ever

1159
01:07:37,965 --> 01:07:42,965
Speaker 1: been taught to reclaim your sense of worth, your motherhood

1160
01:07:43,765 --> 01:07:47,845
Speaker 1: and your peace. Oh Holy Disruptor is out now wherever

1161
01:07:47,885 --> 01:07:51,405
Speaker 1: you get your books. And it's such a good read.

1162
01:07:51,685 --> 01:07:57,845
Speaker 1: It's really raw and brave and kind of sweet and

1163
01:07:57,885 --> 01:08:04,365
Speaker 1: surprisingly hopeful considering it's also got some real darkness in it.

1164
01:08:06,085 --> 01:08:09,165
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to No Filter. The executive producer

1165
01:08:09,205 --> 01:08:12,285
Speaker 1: of No Filter is Nama Brown. The senior producer is

1166
01:08:12,325 --> 01:08:16,405
Speaker 1: Breed Player. Audio production is by Jacob Brown and video

1167
01:08:16,565 --> 01:08:20,165
Speaker 1: editing is by Josh Green. This episode was recorded at

1168
01:08:20,165 --> 01:08:24,925
Speaker 1: Session in Progress Studios and I am your host, Kate

1169
01:08:25,005 --> 01:08:32,045
Speaker 1: lane Brook. I will see you next Monday. Mamma Mia

1170
01:08:32,165 --> 01:08:34,965
Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that

1171
01:08:35,005 --> 01:08:36,645
Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on