Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
Speaker 2: to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
Speaker 2: continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
Speaker 2: been a fundamental part of Indigenous culture.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 1: I'm Cassanya Lukisch and this is diary of a birth.
Speaker 1: There's an old adage that a woman forgets the pain
Speaker 1: and trauma of birth so that we continue to have them.
Speaker 1: It's nature at work. I've looked back at my own
Speaker 1: births and gone, oh, it wasn't that bad. But let's
Speaker 1: be real, it's hard work, and so often a woman's
Speaker 1: mental health in subsequent pregnancies is overlooked. Today's mum was
Speaker 1: riddled with anxiety when she felt pregnant for a second
Speaker 1: time with Irish twins no less, and while she delivered
Speaker 1: to perfectly healthy baby, that was something that played on
Speaker 1: her mind.
Speaker 4: I became quite terrified of giving birth during that second pregnancy.
Speaker 4: It was like I knew it was coming and I
Speaker 4: kind of had these, you know, little flashbacks of what
Speaker 4: it was like with Noah, with.
Speaker 1: A curve spine, making an epertural more challenging. She was
Speaker 1: adamant on being prepared, but her little one was eager
Speaker 1: to meet her coming into the world with a single push,
Speaker 1: a truly express checkout. So let's meet today's mum.
Speaker 4: Hi, my name's Nicolina and this is the diary of
Speaker 4: my birth with Leo.
Speaker 1: Okay, So, Nikki, you had your two babies very close together.
Speaker 1: How far apart were they?
Speaker 4: They ended up being sixteen months apart upon birth, so
Speaker 4: very close.
Speaker 1: So what was life like when you fell pregnant with Leo.
Speaker 4: It was challenging in the sense of I had no
Speaker 4: time to do the things that I really leaned into
Speaker 4: with my first pregnancy, like the excuse to have a
Speaker 4: nap or to lay down or to work from home.
Speaker 4: Because I was a bit too tired to hop on
Speaker 4: the train and I was super pregnant. I just had
Speaker 4: to go go go with Leo. So I didn't really
Speaker 4: think about the pregnancy a lot. I didn't really have
Speaker 4: time to even, you know, grasp if I was feeling
Speaker 4: sick or anything, which I think maybe was a good
Speaker 4: thing because I kind of skipped any of the bad symptoms.
Speaker 4: I did have a really cruisy pregnancy, apart from a
Speaker 4: bit of pelvic pain. I remember that was a bit
Speaker 4: of an issue towards the end. But it's not like
Speaker 4: I had time to exercise anyway because I had a
Speaker 4: toddlers so that wasn't a problem. So I feel like
Speaker 4: I cruised through in the sense of I wasn't thinking
Speaker 4: or overthinking the pregnancy too much. But it was really
Speaker 4: tricky in terms of exhaustion, in terms of having to
Speaker 4: pick Norah up still. You know, I had to pick
Speaker 4: him up still. He actually wasn't war until a month
Speaker 4: before Leo was born, and that was tricky.
Speaker 1: The other thing is as well, you're not like checking
Speaker 1: the app every five seconds, being like it's the size
Speaker 1: of a banana, it's the size of a melon.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had no idea what fruit size Leo was
Speaker 4: at any point. Of course, went to all the appropriate checkups.
Speaker 4: But yet true second child in that he didn't get
Speaker 4: too much attention in terms of any physical aspect of
Speaker 4: the pregnancy. I just kept growing bigger and bigger. Things
Speaker 4: got harder and harder when it came to Noah, And yeah,
Speaker 4: we got to the end.
Speaker 1: Some of the complications that you found with your first
Speaker 1: pregnancy You've got a curve in your spine, how did
Speaker 1: that affect your I guess anxiety or stresses around giving
Speaker 1: birth to number two.
Speaker 4: So when I was pregnant with Noah, I was very
Speaker 4: kind of blase about the birth. I think it was
Speaker 4: because when you first for p you actually have no
Speaker 4: idea what birth will be like. You have an idea
Speaker 4: in terms of like people say it's painful, but what
Speaker 4: does that mean? You have never felt that pain. So
Speaker 4: I was very thankful for the oblivion I was living in.
Speaker 4: So then when I got pregnant with Leo and I
Speaker 4: realized that birth was coming, and I knew much more
Speaker 4: about birth. I knew what a contraction felt like, I
Speaker 4: knew how scary it was to wait for each one
Speaker 4: and not know when they were coming, and also you know,
Speaker 4: try and figure out if I was in labor. I
Speaker 4: knew all of it. I became quite terrified of giving
Speaker 4: birth during that second pregnancy. It was like I knew
Speaker 4: it was coming and I kind of had these, you know,
Speaker 4: little flashbacks of what it was like with Noah. And
Speaker 4: then on the other side of it was as well
Speaker 4: with Noah. Whilst you know, I'm really grateful I had
Speaker 4: a pretty, i want to say, cruizy enough birth. With Noah.
Speaker 4: I didn't have any major complications. It was a natural birth.
Speaker 4: I didn't go into an emergency C section or anything
Speaker 4: like that. One part of the birth was the tricky
Speaker 4: part of my epidural. I went into Noah's birth with
Speaker 4: no birth plan. I'm a no birth plan kind of person.
Speaker 4: My only plan is that I want the epidural, and
Speaker 4: I made that very clear to my midwife throughout the
Speaker 4: whole thing. I think I reminded her like six seven
Speaker 4: times every appointment. So I went in for my epidural.
Speaker 4: I remember sitting on the side of the bed and
Speaker 4: the doctor started doing his thing, and it kind of
Speaker 4: went a bit silent, and he goes, hmmm, I'm going
Speaker 4: to have to call someone in. I thought that was
Speaker 4: really weird. Why why can't you just do it yourself?
Speaker 4: And somebody else came in wheeling in an ultrasound machine,
Speaker 4: which was weird, and I knew it was an ultrasund
Speaker 4: machine because I had ultrasounds done. And he said that
Speaker 4: I had a curved spine and that it was getting
Speaker 4: quite tricky to find the point at which they need
Speaker 4: to put the needle into the spine.
Speaker 1: Did you know that you had a curved spine before this?
Speaker 4: I had no idea that my spine was curved. Is
Speaker 4: that a thing? That's what I said to the doctor.
Speaker 4: I said, what's that? Why is that an issue? And
Speaker 4: he just said, it's you know, it's just slightly curved
Speaker 4: to a particular side. It's not an issue. But obviously
Speaker 4: it makes a trickier to get this needle in. So
Speaker 4: that was a real big surprise at the time. Luckily
Speaker 4: the ultrasound machine helped. Took a little bit longer, but
Speaker 4: we got the epidural in and I didn't have any
Speaker 4: issues from then on. But knowing that, when I fell
Speaker 4: pregnant with Leo and went into my second midwife appointment
Speaker 4: for his birth, I was very clear with her. I said,
Speaker 4: I had this thing with my spine in my first berth.
Speaker 4: I really don't want it to happen again. Can we
Speaker 4: flag that now with the doctors, with whoever needs to know?
Speaker 4: And I actually ended up having an appointment one on
Speaker 4: one with the anethethist and you know, had a really
Speaker 4: good one on one chat and they spoke to me
Speaker 4: about you know, they're very well prepared. They have my
Speaker 4: scans and it'll all be fine. But that was also
Speaker 4: terrifying because I thought, what if I other issue comes
Speaker 4: up with the epidural.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you've got that in the back of your head.
Speaker 1: You're having a pretty good pregnancy generally though, like any
Speaker 1: other issues throughout your pregnancy.
Speaker 4: No, I think it all came down to, you know,
Speaker 4: that pelvic pain at the end. It was in bed
Speaker 4: for quite a bit of the last few weeks when
Speaker 4: I could obviously toddler running around was limited, but I
Speaker 4: was Whilst physically fine, I was quite terrified. So the
Speaker 4: countdown started to become like very obvious that last month
Speaker 4: that birth was coming, which meant contractions are coming, which
Speaker 4: meant labour's coming. I just knew that was coming, and
Speaker 4: that was getting quite overwhelming, and I was getting quite
Speaker 4: anxious about that and when it would happen. Because the
Speaker 4: other part of it is Noah was induced, so I
Speaker 4: also didn't know what it was like to naturally go
Speaker 4: into labor, and I was also really afraid of that.
Speaker 1: So a lot of anxiety around that. Did you have
Speaker 1: any sort of help from anyone to kind of help
Speaker 1: with that anxiety?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I ended up BacT going to therapy. During
Speaker 4: my second pregnancy, I saw a therapist for you know,
Speaker 4: an array of things, and that was not just about
Speaker 4: the birth, but also about I had developed postnatal blues
Speaker 4: with Noah, and that was something that I was also
Speaker 4: fearful of that would come back or spring back on
Speaker 4: me when Leo was born. But part of those therapy
Speaker 4: sessions were talking through that anxiety around birth approaching and
Speaker 4: you know, there's only so much you can do about that.
Speaker 4: You know, people say, you know, when you get pregnant, well,
Speaker 4: they've got to come out some way. So I knew
Speaker 4: he had to come out, but I tried to, you know,
Speaker 4: be super positive about it. I tried to remind myself
Speaker 4: that I had a pretty positive first birth, that things
Speaker 4: would be okay, that I was taking the precautions, I
Speaker 4: was speaking to the doctors about my concerns, and I
Speaker 4: was just kind of hoping for the best by the
Speaker 4: end of it.
Speaker 1: Did you have a plan with Leo? Was there a
Speaker 1: birth plan for him?
Speaker 4: So my birth plan was very much the same in
Speaker 4: I was happy to try going to natural labor. I
Speaker 4: understood that the first time I needed to be induced,
Speaker 4: but I did want to. I don't want to say
Speaker 4: avoid that the second time around, but I think just
Speaker 4: you know, the less intervention possible, the better. So that
Speaker 4: was a goal of mine. I would say, but I'm
Speaker 4: happy to leave it to the doctors. I know their professionals.
Speaker 4: I know it was a really good hospital. But again,
Speaker 4: my major reminder for my midwife was that I wanted
Speaker 4: that epidural ready to go. It's funny about epidurals because
Speaker 4: I think I admire so many of my friends who
Speaker 4: have gone into natural labor, not used any pain medication
Speaker 4: or any help in that sense. But I'm very much
Speaker 4: of the thinking of if I have a headache, I
Speaker 4: take a pat at all, Like I'm not sitting through
Speaker 4: that headache.
Speaker 1: I'm so with you, Nicky, I'm so with you.
Speaker 4: So in my mind, for me, it did not make
Speaker 4: sense not to get an epidural. I was all for it.
Speaker 4: I was like, have that ready to go, And to
Speaker 4: the point at which I remember when I went into
Speaker 4: the label with Leo, I was kind of walking down
Speaker 4: the hallway and I was like, yeah, telling it at
Speaker 4: my midwife, like I'm here and I'm ready for the epidural.
Speaker 4: I'm ready for the epidural. You were fixator.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay. So you get towards the end of your
Speaker 1: pregnancy with Leo, You've got this anxiety of what's going
Speaker 1: to happen this time around? Did you go into labor
Speaker 1: naturally with him?
Speaker 4: So? I did go into labor naturally with Leo, and
Speaker 4: it was a super casual. Monday, I was at home
Speaker 4: with Noah. It was my one day at home with
Speaker 4: him during the week because I was working at a time,
Speaker 4: and I had plans with friends. I had brunch plans,
Speaker 4: and I was not canceling my brunch plans because you know,
Speaker 4: as a mum, you just get no time to see
Speaker 4: your friends. So I'd made these plans and I thought,
Speaker 4: I'm definitely going to brunch today. But my contractions very
Speaker 4: you know, low level contractors started in the morning, probably
Speaker 4: about an hour before brunch.
Speaker 1: How far along were you? Where were you at?
Speaker 4: I was at about thirty eight weeks with Leo. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 4: brunches on, I'm not care And my midwife said the
Speaker 4: same thing, Go to brunch, go for a walk. It
Speaker 4: was down the road. You'll be fine. It's low level contractions.
Speaker 4: They're very far apart, and give me a call, you know,
Speaker 4: once you finished. So I did. I actually walked. I
Speaker 4: pushed the pram with not wanting it to brunch. I
Speaker 4: told my friends, who none of them had kids at
Speaker 4: the time, so they were petrified the whole lunch. They
Speaker 4: were just watching for my water to break like in
Speaker 4: the movies. I had to remind them that that's not
Speaker 4: actually that common. But we had brunch. I had a
Speaker 4: great meal, and then I walked back and that's kind
Speaker 4: of when things started to ramp up when I had
Speaker 4: gotten home. So I called my husband, he had come
Speaker 4: home from work, just to you know, be safe. But again,
Speaker 4: my midwife was super chill, so she just said, it's
Speaker 4: going to take a really long time. You know, you
Speaker 4: haven't done it naturally yet. This is what happens. It
Speaker 4: takes a while. You need to stay home for as
Speaker 4: long as possible and keep comfortable. You know. I love
Speaker 4: being in the hospital because I like to know that
Speaker 4: there's help around me. So that was also hard for
Speaker 4: me because I was quite anxious. But you know, midwives
Speaker 4: know what they're talking about. So I thought, I'll just
Speaker 4: stay at home. And you know, it is more comfortable
Speaker 4: to lay in bed than it is to sit on
Speaker 4: a chair or you know, walk around a maternity ward
Speaker 4: feeling contractions, so I did stay home. I watched a
Speaker 4: bit of Kardashians. I got a couple of episodes in,
Speaker 4: and then it was pretty much go time. I could
Speaker 4: feel it quite a bit at that time, and I
Speaker 4: was very calm by that point. My anxiety didn't really
Speaker 4: peek through too much. But when it started to get
Speaker 4: quite painful, I then started to get quite anxious being
Speaker 4: at home and not being at the hospital and not
Speaker 4: having my epidural, and you know, just knowing that there
Speaker 4: was a lot to come. Still there was still getting
Speaker 4: to the hospital. They were still getting into the room,
Speaker 4: you know, ordering an epidural, getting checked, how many centemonies
Speaker 4: are you dilated? Again? This was that anxiety of knowing
Speaker 4: what went down and knowing that that's about to come,
Speaker 4: and that's really daunting. So I started to feel that
Speaker 4: and I just wanted to get to the hospital. At
Speaker 4: that point.
Speaker 1: It sounds like the anxiety of knowing what it was
Speaker 1: like last time really like overtook you, which is so
Speaker 1: normal with so many women. You know, we obviously have
Speaker 1: a lot of fear around the first time that we
Speaker 1: give birth, but if you have something that not necessarily
Speaker 1: goes wrong the first time, it kind of lingers if
Speaker 1: you've got to go do it all again.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I remember my husband. I said to him,
Speaker 4: I'm just like, I'm really scared. I said, I'm really scared.
Speaker 4: I know these contractions are going to get worse, and
Speaker 4: you know, being really nice and trying to be really supportive,
Speaker 4: he said, but it'll be fine, Like you've done it before,
Speaker 4: so you can do it again. And I just turned
Speaker 4: to him and I said, so, if you broke your leg,
Speaker 4: would you do it again? You know, would you do
Speaker 4: it again?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: Okay, but I didn't have a choice. But I have,
Speaker 4: I've felt pain, and I know that pain's coming back around.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So he got a bit of a grilling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no one that you hate more than your
Speaker 1: partner when you're in labor.
Speaker 4: I despise.
Speaker 1: So when did you decide to go into the hospital.
Speaker 4: So it had probably been about two or three hours
Speaker 4: since I had gone to brunch, so a couple of hours.
Speaker 4: I still thought I probably was going in a little
Speaker 4: bit early. But again something in me. I was really anxious.
Speaker 4: I was uncomfortable at home. It was getting more painful. Again.
Speaker 4: I hadn't experienced a natural labor yet, So whilst my
Speaker 4: midwife was telling me to time out these contractions, I thought,
Speaker 4: am I even doing this right? Am I timing it right?
Speaker 4: What if it's quicker than I'm timing it? What if
Speaker 4: it's worse? What if it's coming really soon? I think,
Speaker 4: looking back now, that was my body saying you need
Speaker 4: to get to the hospital. Because I didn't realize how
Speaker 4: quickly it was about to happen after that. So yeah,
Speaker 4: I said to my husband, let's just get to the hospital.
Speaker 4: They're not going to kick me out, even though my
Speaker 4: midwife said stay home. And so yeah, we got into
Speaker 4: the car. In the car is when things really like
Speaker 4: ramped up. I was screaming out of that car. We
Speaker 4: had timed it. It was that twelve minute drive or
Speaker 4: whatever it was, but it felt like a year in
Speaker 4: that car. I felt like I was on some sort
Speaker 4: of a road trip. I just kept saying, like, just
Speaker 4: get to this hospital. Looking back now, a bad idea,
Speaker 4: but don't worry about the red light speed through there.
Speaker 4: Get me to this hospital. I was not just in
Speaker 4: like immense pain, Like those contractions were at a level
Speaker 4: that I hadn't felt before because I was obviously further
Speaker 4: along than I had gotten with Noah without an epidural.
Speaker 4: But I was also getting really scared because I was
Speaker 4: in a car, and you know, you hear those stories
Speaker 4: about people having babies in cars, so you're like, I
Speaker 4: don't want to be the person having a baby on
Speaker 4: the side of the road. Get me to this hospital.
Speaker 4: So I was really scared, and I was in a
Speaker 4: lot of pain.
Speaker 1: So you get to the hospital. Obviously the baby didn't
Speaker 1: come in the car. They check you in, you're in
Speaker 1: the room, and you are immediately like, get me that epidural.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So when I got to the hospital, and this
Speaker 4: would have been maybe I'm talking like an hour so
Speaker 4: between we parked the car, my husband slowly gets me
Speaker 4: up to lift up to the hallway. As I'm in
Speaker 4: the hallway, I'm stopping every three steps for a contraction,
Speaker 4: Like I'm in a lot of pain. I'm thinking, oh
Speaker 4: my gosh, this is really ramping up. This is really
Speaker 4: ramping up. I can't even walk. But again, nobody around
Speaker 4: me was very alarmed, Like the midwives even were like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: you're fine, Like they were timing it, and it didn't
Speaker 4: seem like it was too frequent. In their minds, and
Speaker 4: you know, I had just gotten there. They had already
Speaker 4: been informed by my midwife that I was coming, so
Speaker 4: they knew the background of it. Had only been three
Speaker 4: or four hours. But as I was walking through the
Speaker 4: hallway and the midwife met me in the hallway, I
Speaker 4: remember yelling at her again, feel so bad about this
Speaker 4: later and you know, she was very sweet about it,
Speaker 4: and they probably get this all the time, but you know, saying,
Speaker 4: I really want my EPI dural, I really want my
Speaker 4: API dural, and that's all I said. I didn't even
Speaker 4: introduce myself because this midwife wasn't my midwife. My midwife
Speaker 4: wasn't another berth that night. I didn't even introduce myself,
Speaker 4: which I felt really bad, but I just said, all
Speaker 4: I want is my EPI durol. I'm really scared right now.
Speaker 4: I can't handle this pain. Can you order it? Very
Speaker 4: nice midwives. I don't know how they do their job
Speaker 4: and get through all of that, but you know, she said,
Speaker 4: it's fine, I'm ordering it right now. So I sat down,
Speaker 4: got in my gown, and within maybe ten minutes they
Speaker 4: were in there, ready to go, ultrasound machine and everything.
Speaker 4: They were super prepared for my curved spine.
Speaker 1: But they go to do your epidural with your curve spine,
Speaker 1: they're all prepared. You're in agony. But there was a
Speaker 1: little bit of a problem.
Speaker 4: It was really weird because when I sat for my epidural,
Speaker 4: and again this is like flashback to your first birth right,
Speaker 4: I kind of knew how I had to sit. You know,
Speaker 4: people don't tell you that when you're sitting for an
Speaker 4: epi driel. You have to do super steel. You have
Speaker 4: to sit on the side of the bed, you have
Speaker 4: to like have a really straight back. There's a lot
Speaker 4: of rules. There's a lot of rules for it to
Speaker 4: go right, and you have to tell them if a
Speaker 4: contraction's coming so that they don't do it in that moment.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of formalities about the epi durol, and
Speaker 4: something about me sitting was really weird, Like I was
Speaker 4: very uncomfortable my bottom area, like you know, where it
Speaker 4: all happens. But I didn't really think anything of it
Speaker 4: because I just thought, let's just get this epidurol in,
Speaker 4: you know, that was like my aim. They just said, yep,
Speaker 4: let's do the EPI drool. You'll be fine. So I
Speaker 4: didn't really say anything. Little did I know that was
Speaker 4: Leo dropped kind of waiting in that area, not out,
Speaker 4: but very nearly out.
Speaker 1: So they didn't even have a chance to sort of
Speaker 1: check you.
Speaker 4: Well, they checked me when I just got to the hospital,
Speaker 4: and I hadn't been that dilated, so I think at
Speaker 4: that point I was about five centimeters.
Speaker 1: That's still pretty significant.
Speaker 4: Yes, And I remember the rule was with no at least.
Speaker 4: What I was told was that they try and get
Speaker 4: you to more than four centimeters for you to get
Speaker 4: an epidool because then it can slow things down, so
Speaker 4: they want you above four. So I was like, great,
Speaker 4: five epidurol back on that. So I ticked that box.
Speaker 4: So within that thirty to forty minutes, Leo had just gone, well,
Speaker 4: actually no, I want ten centimeters. And yeah, he was there.
Speaker 4: He was basically ready. I wasn't because I hadn't you know,
Speaker 4: even laid down up. Next, I looked at my husband
Speaker 4: and he looked at me and he goes, you got
Speaker 4: to push, push, and all fifteen doctors like, you got
Speaker 4: to push. He's there now. So I just did this
Speaker 4: really big push what I thought was a push, and
Speaker 4: she goes, yep one more and before I even got
Speaker 4: to the second push bang, he was out.
Speaker 1: Okay, So when did you realize that Leo was about
Speaker 1: to come out?
Speaker 4: So after the epidural, that was the best part of
Speaker 4: my first berth, Like, let's be honest, you know that
Speaker 4: relief that you feel instantly. And something that was really
Speaker 4: surprising with Noah. I don't know if you had this,
Speaker 4: was that I was told to have a nap after
Speaker 4: my epi dural because at the time I was about
Speaker 4: that just over four centimeters and you know, they had assumed, well,
Speaker 4: you still got a little while to go. Why don't
Speaker 4: you have a bit of a rest now that you're
Speaker 4: out of that pain. So I had laid down with
Speaker 4: no one had a nap. That was what I was
Speaker 4: ready to do with Leo. So I get this every
Speaker 4: draw the doctors leave, I lay down proper, snuggle myself
Speaker 4: into the bed. Midwife's like, great, I'll be here if
Speaker 4: you need anything and walks away. Within a couple of minutes,
Speaker 4: the machine next to me starts buzzing and it was
Speaker 4: his heart rate. So very quickly it went from this
Speaker 4: dim lit room, everyone's ready to nap and just you know,
Speaker 4: wait for a few hours and see what happens to
Speaker 4: It was like the movies, like fifteen doctors rushing into
Speaker 4: the room. I was instantly in like panic, you know.
Speaker 4: The midwife said, his heart rates dropping. My husband pops
Speaker 4: up from his allocated seat, and that was really scary
Speaker 4: because it was such a contrast. Everybody was really chill,
Speaker 4: everybody was ready to wait, and all of a sudden
Speaker 4: something was going on. So that was the first moment
Speaker 4: that we realized something was not right.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, everyone comes in. What's the first
Speaker 1: thing that the nurses and doctors do when they see
Speaker 1: that decreased heart rate?
Speaker 4: So the doctor at the time said, I'm gonna need
Speaker 4: to put my hand in and check what's going on
Speaker 4: and just check to see where he is. So she
Speaker 4: puts her hand in and instantly goes, oh, you've got
Speaker 4: to push, Nicolina, You've got to push now, like yelling
Speaker 4: at me, like she was like my mom. She goes,
Speaker 4: you have to push right now. I looked at my
Speaker 4: husband and he looked at me and he goes, you
Speaker 4: got to push. Push, and all fifteen doctors like, you've
Speaker 4: got to push. He's there now. So I just did
Speaker 4: this really big push. What I thought was a push
Speaker 4: and she goes yep, one more and before I even
Speaker 4: got to a second push, bang, he was out. So
Speaker 4: within I think it was twenty minutes. I was like
Speaker 4: in my cuddled up bed, ready to take him out
Speaker 4: with my beautiful epidural in too. Leah was there, he
Speaker 4: was in my arms, he was crying. There's fifteen doctors
Speaker 4: in the room.
Speaker 1: So they obviously looked and his head was there. He
Speaker 1: was crowning and it was just like a matter of
Speaker 1: a click, and you must be a great pusher.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would like to think it was a really
Speaker 4: good pusher, I think. And what we had resolved after
Speaker 4: talking to the midwife is I think that I was
Speaker 4: sitting on his head in a sense when I was
Speaker 4: sitting for my epidural. So I think in the moments
Speaker 4: between I got checked and sat down and got in
Speaker 4: my gown and sat down for the epidural, he had
Speaker 4: proper dropped and was ready to go. That's why I
Speaker 4: was uncomfortable at the time. But you know, like I'm
Speaker 4: uncomfortable because I'm in labor. I don't know that it's
Speaker 4: him there, and so when I just laid back down,
Speaker 4: he was like no, no, no, get back up. You need
Speaker 4: to get me out of here. This is a story
Speaker 4: that I don't try and tell too often because it
Speaker 4: is I'm kind of like the woman people hate because
Speaker 4: it was one push and he was out, and I
Speaker 4: don't want to, you know, complain about it, because that,
Speaker 4: in a sense, you know, was a great relief because
Speaker 4: I was so anxious and terrified of the birth itself.
Speaker 4: It was kind of funny that it was over so quickly,
Speaker 4: but that in itself was really scary because in the
Speaker 4: moment when I remember all the doctors said you need
Speaker 4: to push now, it was like I was the only
Speaker 4: one that could fix that situation. So it was like
Speaker 4: all writing on me in that moment, and everybody was
Speaker 4: staring at me to like perform, and that was very scary.
Speaker 1: I absolutely completely understand. It is terrifying in any scenario
Speaker 1: he comes out in one push. You're obviously in a
Speaker 1: lot of shock at this point. How did you feel
Speaker 1: when they put him. I'm assuming they just put him
Speaker 1: straight onto your chest.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they did, but they did have to check
Speaker 4: his heart rate because liarly he had been in distress
Speaker 4: because he was ready to go and he wasn't being
Speaker 4: pushed out. But within a couple of minutes kind of
Speaker 4: all the doctors had dissipated out of the room because
Speaker 4: I guess their job was done right. They had come in,
Speaker 4: they checked the baby's heartwaate, it was fine and the
Speaker 4: baby was here, So it was again we just went
Speaker 4: back to that lull really quickly, and that's when we
Speaker 4: kind of had to come to terms with what had
Speaker 4: just happened. You know, it's all the things that I remembered.
Speaker 4: You had to give birth to the placenta and do
Speaker 4: those little bits and pieces. Luckily, because he had basically
Speaker 4: slipped out, I had no tearing, which was really nice
Speaker 4: because I had tearing with Noah. And then, yeah, it
Speaker 4: was about coming to terms with what had happened. And
Speaker 4: for a little while there as well, I felt like
Speaker 4: quite guilty because I thought, well, oh gosh, you know,
Speaker 4: I just sat on his head and I just I
Speaker 4: didn't even know he was there. So there was a
Speaker 4: lot of that. But the midwife was great. She said,
Speaker 4: you know, it's not up to you to even know that.
Speaker 4: You couldn't have ever figured that out. Let's just be
Speaker 4: thankful that it was all fine. And he came out,
Speaker 4: and he clearly he was just very eager to come
Speaker 4: at you.
Speaker 1: So Nicholas is obviously like standing there about to take
Speaker 1: a nap, and then there's a baby there.
Speaker 4: What was his reaction. It's funny because I think men's
Speaker 4: reactions and feelings in that labor room are sometimes dismissed.
Speaker 4: You know, you're really angry at them at the time
Speaker 4: they're not very helpful, or even if they're trying to
Speaker 4: be helpful, they're not being helpful. So he at the
Speaker 4: time was very shocked as well, and he felt that
Speaker 4: helplessness when all the doctors rushed in, So he was like,
Speaker 4: what's happened, what's happened? You know, that confusion, And then
Speaker 4: when things kind of come down and we had realized, okay,
Speaker 4: he's here, Wow, nobody's having a nap. This is our
Speaker 4: second child. We know, you know that there's no naps
Speaker 4: from now to the next five years. So that was
Speaker 4: a bit slightly annoying for the both of us, who
Speaker 4: thought we were going to get arrest not just from
Speaker 4: our toddler, but from you know, giving birth for a
Speaker 4: little while. But at one point I think we just
Speaker 4: started kind of laughing about it because it was so
Speaker 4: hilarious that it went down the way it did, And
Speaker 4: the best part of the moment that it happened was
Speaker 4: one of the doctors yelling out, wow, that was the
Speaker 4: quickest berth I have ever seen, and I have been
Speaker 4: in this industry for twenty years. I felt like there
Speaker 4: was quite an achievement. Actually, everybody was very stunned.
Speaker 1: So even the doctors were like, this was insanely fast.
Speaker 4: Yeah. The doctors were I think even more surprised because
Speaker 4: of course they had checked me forty five minutes before that,
Speaker 4: so there had been this rapid progression of my dilation
Speaker 4: and LEO coming down into the canal. So they were
Speaker 4: stunned by the entire thing.
Speaker 1: And how was your recovery? Did you feel okay after it?
Speaker 1: Were you sort of up and moving around?
Speaker 4: Yeah, recovery was pretty fine. I was very lucky with recovery,
Speaker 4: especially because I guess he had slipped out so quickly
Speaker 4: that I didn't need those stitches, and I know during
Speaker 4: my first pregnancy, man, those stitches were just the weeks after.
Speaker 4: It was just going to pee is a struggle. Everything's
Speaker 4: a struggle. Why being's a struggle? Gosh, It's just a struggle.
Speaker 4: So I was very thankful that I didn't have to
Speaker 4: deal with those stitches. But so I had only done
Speaker 4: my strep beat a week before and my results hadn't
Speaker 4: come back in yet. So within a couple of hours
Speaker 4: of giving birth and we've all settled in and we've
Speaker 4: realized he's here, and everybody's calmed down, and we're all
Speaker 4: laughing about it and we're sending photos to our family,
Speaker 4: the midwife actually came and said my test results had
Speaker 4: come back and I was actually positive, which was also
Speaker 4: a shock. I was negative the first time and I
Speaker 4: didn't actually know what that meant. So we did have
Speaker 4: to stay in the hospital a little bit longer than
Speaker 4: we intended, because when you are positive, you need to
Speaker 4: have a round of antibiotics and your child also needs
Speaker 4: to be monitored for longer. Luckily, everything was completely fine,
Speaker 4: and you don't want to be honest, I wasn't complaining
Speaker 4: for an extra night in the hospital at home with
Speaker 4: the newborn baby that was sleeping a lot in those
Speaker 4: first couple of days when my todd lot was back
Speaker 4: at home not sleeping, So we stayed a little bit longer.
Speaker 4: So that kind of also helped with just you know,
Speaker 4: quietening down, coming to the realization he's here, the birth's done.
Speaker 4: Everybody is fine.
Speaker 1: You said to me in your email when you wrote
Speaker 1: to us that what you really wanted people to know
Speaker 1: is that that fear and anxiety is something that you
Speaker 1: weren't quite anticipating. So can you tell us a bit
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that everybody in the first birth is
Speaker 4: very focused on planning. So you know, we do all
Speaker 4: the classes. We do a birth in class, do the
Speaker 4: breathing class, we do this and that, and there's a
Speaker 4: lot of focus put on that, and you kind of
Speaker 4: get to your birth and whatever birth you have is
Speaker 4: a different experience. And maybe you didn't even use your
Speaker 4: birth plan. Maybe you did use your birth plan. There's
Speaker 4: just a lot of importance put on that and then
Speaker 4: it kind of just fades away. But a lot of
Speaker 4: people will have a second child, a lot of people
Speaker 4: will have a third child. So when I started to
Speaker 4: be quite scared of birth, I didn't really tell anyone
Speaker 4: because I thought it was quite embarrassing, because I thought
Speaker 4: people will think, why is she scared of birth? She's
Speaker 4: already done it, you know, And a lot of people
Speaker 4: would say that, oh, you've already done it before. So
Speaker 4: you could be fine the second time around, but deep
Speaker 4: down I was proper terrified, Like I was anxious about
Speaker 4: I've had nightmares about it, about how it would go down,
Speaker 4: where it would go down, how bad the pain would
Speaker 4: be again, whether the every dura would work, whether you know,
Speaker 4: I'd be paralyzed from the every dural because it was
Speaker 4: so scary getting it and staying still. There's so many
Speaker 4: elements that you now know about birth that you didn't before.
Speaker 4: So in the first pregnancy, you're not stressing about those things.
Speaker 4: All you're stressing about is put together a birth plan
Speaker 4: and figure out your breathing and just go with the
Speaker 4: flow and see how it goes, because you don't know
Speaker 4: how it will go, but you know every element of
Speaker 4: birth going into your second berth. So that was terrifying
Speaker 4: for me. So I was very relieved once it was finished.
Speaker 4: And again I think it was just ironic that it
Speaker 4: was so quick after. I think it was kind of
Speaker 4: a way perhaps even that Leo was like, right, I'll
Speaker 4: make this super easy for your mum, because I know
Speaker 4: you're really really scared.
Speaker 1: I completely relate to you, and I think that I've
Speaker 1: heard some incredible stories about women who have this real
Speaker 1: calm peace, like very relaxed and positive mindsets. But for
Speaker 1: us anxious people, it can be really, really scary, and
Speaker 1: I think it's really important to talk about it and
Speaker 1: to kind of think about the ways that we can
Speaker 1: combat that. Whether it's in the lead up and obviously
Speaker 1: you saw a therapist, obviously you had people to talk to,
Speaker 1: but I do think it's really important to note that
Speaker 1: just because you've done it once doesn't mean that you're
Speaker 1: not allowed to be afraid again.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And the thing that people tell you is every
Speaker 4: birth is so different, right, So part of that fear
Speaker 4: as well was that, well, Noah's birth was, you know,
Speaker 4: pretty cruisy, and I felt really lucky and I thought
Speaker 4: it went really well. It was positive. I ended up
Speaker 4: getting what I wanted in the end in terms of
Speaker 4: pain medication, and I thought, maybe I'm not going to
Speaker 4: get that again, because maybe you only get one good birth.
Speaker 4: So I thought I was out of tokens and I thought, well,
Speaker 4: this one's not going to go great. And it was
Speaker 4: definitely different. I thought, well, maybe there will be complications
Speaker 4: this time around. I didn't have a complication the first
Speaker 4: time around. I wasn't prepared for how much my mind
Speaker 4: would run in terms of what could have gone wrong,
Speaker 4: how you know, bad it was going to hurt this
Speaker 4: time around, if things would work the same, if things
Speaker 4: would go differently. That was quite terrifying. But I think
Speaker 4: the main thing I tried to focus on was getting
Speaker 4: over the embarrassment first of all, very quickly, and I
Speaker 4: just started talking about it. I told my husband about it.
Speaker 4: I told my sister about it, and you know, I
Speaker 4: told other mums about it, and they said the same thing.
Speaker 4: So I was like, why isn't anybody talking about this?
Speaker 1: I relate to you very very much.
Speaker 4: You know, we keep everything inside all the time. We
Speaker 4: just need to talk about how shitty aspects of this is.
Speaker 4: So they did, and that was very helpful. So, you know,
Speaker 4: once I started talk about it, once I started to
Speaker 4: talking my therapist about it, I realized that it was
Speaker 4: actually pretty normal and common. That was very helpful. You
Speaker 4: never want to feel like you're the only one with
Speaker 4: that fear and that anxiety, and you know, I'm being
Speaker 4: ridiculous and nobody else would think this way as soon
Speaker 4: as other people are in your boat, you know, you're
Speaker 4: not wishing that upon people, but you're like, great, we're
Speaker 4: a team.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Nicholina, if you're telling us your story,
Speaker 1: really appreciate it, and thank you so much for your
Speaker 1: candor and you know, just being really honest about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course, thank you so much for giving me
Speaker 4: the opportunity to tell the story.
Speaker 1: I relate to Nicolina in a lot of ways, having
Speaker 1: struggled with anxiety through both my pregnancies. I was curious
Speaker 1: about the medical implications, so we've enlisted obstetrician and gynecologist
Speaker 1: doctor Bromin Devine to give us some of the facts. So,
Speaker 1: if you're in any sort of medication pre pregnancy, is
Speaker 1: it safe to continue when you get those two lines.
Speaker 3: This is a great question because lots and lots of
Speaker 3: people are on medication now for anxiety and depression. In
Speaker 3: the past, some of the medication that was used was
Speaker 3: not usually recommended in pregnancy, but the class of drugs
Speaker 3: that we use now to treat anxiety and depression are
Speaker 3: generally regarded as safe in pregnancy. There are some effects
Speaker 3: that they can have. They don't cause birth defects or
Speaker 3: anything like that, but they can be associated with it
Speaker 3: slightly increased risk of leading when you've had a baby,
Speaker 3: So postpartum hemorrhage, and they can also be associated with
Speaker 3: a slightly increased risk of respiratory distress in the newborn,
Speaker 3: which means that the baby has a fast breathing rate
Speaker 3: and sometimes needs to be on a little bit of
Speaker 3: oxygen in the nursery for a few hours after birth.
Speaker 3: But that's not consistent across all people who are taking
Speaker 3: those medications. The thing that we say, though, we know
Speaker 3: really clearly that people's mental health should be as good
Speaker 3: as it can be in the antiinatal period, because if
Speaker 3: it isn't, then that's a real marker for postnatal depression.
Speaker 3: And postnatal depression has so many and so does antiinatal
Speaker 3: depression and anxiety. But postnatal depression and anxiety has so
Speaker 3: many effects on the neurodevelopmental health of the child and
Speaker 3: bonding between the child and the mum, and lots of
Speaker 3: far reaching effects. So what we say these days is
Speaker 3: if you need to be on medication to optimize your
Speaker 3: mental health in the antiinatal period, then it's best to
Speaker 3: be on that medication. And if that keeps you as
Speaker 3: good as you can be, that's fantastic. And we really
Speaker 3: take people's mental health anti natally and postnatally, very very seriously.
Speaker 1: Diary of a Birth was hosted by me kasenular Kitsch
Speaker 1: with expert input from doctor Bronwin Devine and while we
Speaker 1: have you, We're on the hunt to share powerful, underrepresented
Speaker 1: stories from people of all cultures, backgrounds, and debilities. If
Speaker 1: your birth story felt different, please reach out. Details are
Speaker 1: in the show notes. This episode was produced by Tina
Speaker 1: Matalov and myself Casseni Lukich, with audio production by Leah
Speaker 1: Porgies