Speaker 1: Welcome to the Sees the Ya Podcast. Busy and happy,
Speaker 1: but tired and worn, just some of the feelings when
Speaker 1: baby is born. There's magic, elation, there's chaos and tears,
Speaker 1: but everyone goes through the same hopes and fears. So
Speaker 1: this is a segment we hope helps you feel supported
Speaker 1: and valid. The mum Juggles reel the good, bad, the ugly,
Speaker 1: the best and worst day. It's part of the journey
Speaker 1: to Seize the Babe. I'm Sarah Davidson, a lawyer turned
Speaker 1: f entrepreneur who hung up the suits and heels to
Speaker 1: co found Mata Maiden a Macha milk Bar, become a
Speaker 1: TV and radio presenter, and of course host The Sees
Speaker 1: the Ya Podcast. This year, I added motherhood to that list,
Speaker 1: which is the best job I've ever had with our
Speaker 1: beautiful baby Teddy, and this segment was designed to house
Speaker 1: all the conversations we've been having about parenthood. We'll still
Speaker 1: do our regular episodes, and just like real life, it's
Speaker 1: a constant balance between our parent identity and everything else.
Speaker 1: I hope you guys enjoy this segment as much as
Speaker 1: I have enjoyed creating it. Lovely neighborhood, we are back
Speaker 1: with the third installment of Seize the Baby, on a
Speaker 1: topic that's already been the most requested in my dms,
Speaker 1: and that was actually before this segment even came up.
Speaker 1: I think it might be the reason that I thought
Speaker 1: of the idea to move some of these answers to
Speaker 1: podcast form because I had been screenshotting AUNT. I answered
Speaker 1: one person's question in as much detail as I could,
Speaker 1: and then I just couldn't repeat that over and over
Speaker 1: again because it was I tried to put as much
Speaker 1: detail as possible, and I ended up just literally copying
Speaker 1: and pasting sending out these terrible screenshots of my answers,
Speaker 1: and I still felt like there wasn't enough real estate
Speaker 1: in single story frames to cover everything that I wanted
Speaker 1: to try and say to be reassuring or to just
Speaker 1: share our experience. I felt like it really deserved a full,
Speaker 1: proper ted talk length episode. So that's what's going to
Speaker 1: come in your ears. And I also think it's a
Speaker 1: topic that sparked a level of desperation in me for
Speaker 1: information that I have never experienced before. And that is
Speaker 1: saying something because new parenthood, you're always for information about
Speaker 1: what to do and so to be able to pick
Speaker 1: one thing that sparked the most desperation, like that's saying something.
Speaker 1: We're talking, of course, about the elusive and emotionally charged
Speaker 1: topic of sleep, and particularly the dreaded sleep regression or
Speaker 1: regressions as supposedly joy there are several Even within parenthood,
Speaker 1: where most topics are already a bit emotional or judge,
Speaker 1: sleep seems to be especially sensitive, and I think that's
Speaker 1: often because you're usually only talking about it if you're
Speaker 1: not getting enough, which is never anyone's best version of themselves. So,
Speaker 1: as with all of these episodes, a big disclaimer to start,
Speaker 1: this is all anecdotal. It's not an exhaustive, fully researched
Speaker 1: guide to sleep. I have no professional experience or scientific backing.
Speaker 1: I'm just answering your questions about what we did, and
Speaker 1: there are many sleep specialists or pediatricians or experts who
Speaker 1: you can turn to if you need actual advice. I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to give any advice. I've just been asked
Speaker 1: the question a lot of times and want to give
Speaker 1: as much detail as I can. Every baby and family
Speaker 1: is different, though, and what worked for us this time
Speaker 1: might not work next time. But having said that, when
Speaker 1: I was in the depths of it. I didn't care
Speaker 1: about disclaimers. I didn't care that anyone was saying this
Speaker 1: might not work for you. I still wanted to know
Speaker 1: what everyone else was doing, just because, Yeah, like I said,
Speaker 1: you're so desperate for information on what might help. So
Speaker 1: I'll just lay out what we did. But I just
Speaker 1: want to remind everyone that this area is very specific
Speaker 1: to you and also to the age of your baby too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very specific to so many factors. For context, I'm
Speaker 1: talking about our experience getting through the so called four
Speaker 1: month regression, which is the first major one that gets
Speaker 1: talked about, and Teddy was born two weeks early. This
Speaker 1: hit us almost exactly at four months and two weeks,
Speaker 1: so at his perfectly adjusted age of four months, he's
Speaker 1: so punctual that boy, oh my goodness. Look, we've barely started,
Speaker 1: and I already again have to add a little note
Speaker 1: that there's already some division around the term regression. So
Speaker 1: before we even start talking about sleep reggressions, there's some
Speaker 1: division around whether they exist, and secondly, there's some division
Speaker 1: around if they do exist, are they called progressions not regressions.
Speaker 1: I'm going to call it a regression, because that's just
Speaker 1: the most common description when you're googling, when you're doing
Speaker 1: your own research, and I did feel like Teddy's sleep
Speaker 1: went backwards. But I do appreciate the positive slant of
Speaker 1: the name progression, and it comes from the idea that
Speaker 1: the sleep disruptions that happen during a regression often happened
Speaker 1: because your baby's learning a new skill, so they're actually
Speaker 1: going forwards, not backwards. So it's kind of putting a
Speaker 1: positive on something that feels otherwise quite negative. So I
Speaker 1: do appreciate that that's a really positive, yay kind of
Speaker 1: way to look at it. But I'll just still call
Speaker 1: it a regression because it's easier. As to those who
Speaker 1: say they don't exist. I'm not sure on the exact science,
Speaker 1: but as I understand it, at least for the four
Speaker 1: month regression, there's a big shift in the way baby sleep.
Speaker 1: It's just some babies don't show a disruption or any
Speaker 1: symptom in that shift. That's how I understand it. So
Speaker 1: I think when people say they don't exist, they don't
Speaker 1: mean that, like I think all babies do necessarily go
Speaker 1: through the shift. I think just some babies don't show
Speaker 1: any symptoms. So in that sense, they don't exist. I'm
Speaker 1: not one hundred percent sure if that's the way that
Speaker 1: kind of school of thought comes about. But for me anyway,
Speaker 1: there was enough material out there for me to personally
Speaker 1: accept that they happen, and then our experience was very
Speaker 1: textbook on all the symptoms of the so called four
Speaker 1: month regression. So to me, it exists. Each to their own.
Speaker 1: Please go and do other research on the different terms
Speaker 1: and all that stuff, but I'm just going to continue
Speaker 1: as if, you know, treating it as if the four
Speaker 1: month regression is a thing, because it was fast. So
Speaker 1: for some more background, there are a few main regressions
Speaker 1: that are talked about, with four being the first, and
Speaker 1: then I think there's sort of eight, twelve, eighteen months.
Speaker 1: There might be a few more or a few less,
Speaker 1: but they seemed to be the main ones that came
Speaker 1: up when I was looking at everything from I understand,
Speaker 1: and the four months regression is when a baby goes
Speaker 1: from newborn sleep, which has no real cycles. It's just
Speaker 1: kind of whenever. They don't have Ciccaian rhythms, they don't
Speaker 1: really know day or night. It's just chunks of sleep,
Speaker 1: and that tends to sort of improve and get longer
Speaker 1: as they develop a little bit more, and then they
Speaker 1: shift from that newborn sleep to cycles of sleep, which
Speaker 1: is what adults have. We sleep in cycles. But what
Speaker 1: happens when there are symptoms is that they can't link
Speaker 1: those cycles. Again. I don't know what the actual science is,
Speaker 1: but that's how I understand it from a kind of
Speaker 1: lay person's view, that they move from not having cycles
Speaker 1: to having cycles, and then in between each cycle whatever
Speaker 1: wakes them up, and then they can't get back to
Speaker 1: sleep themselves. They can't kind of link those cycles into
Speaker 1: big chunks of sleep. So that means going from longer
Speaker 1: sleeps to waking up very often, which is exactly what
Speaker 1: happened to Teddy. And that kind of tends to be
Speaker 1: the main description of what a sleep regression is is
Speaker 1: just disrupted sleep. And I'm not sure that I realized
Speaker 1: initially for us, because it was masked by jet lag.
Speaker 1: You guys might remember we took Teddy to Italy and
Speaker 1: we came back exactly on his sort of four and
Speaker 1: a half month marker, but he went from sleeping for
Speaker 1: eight to ten hours in a row, and that was
Speaker 1: like a dream. I didn't even realize how good we
Speaker 1: had it. But he'd just been inching closer and closer
Speaker 1: to eight to ten hours in a row without any wakeups.
Speaker 1: He went from that consistently to waking every hour to
Speaker 1: one and a half hours overnight, which continued well past
Speaker 1: jet lags. So at the start, I was like, Okay, cool,
Speaker 1: we've obviously taken him overseas. He's changed complete time zones
Speaker 1: and weather and everything. It's disrupted. That makes sense, big
Speaker 1: changes to routine. But then it went on for weeks
Speaker 1: and weeks and weeks, so I eventually realized, obviously it
Speaker 1: must be something else. And that's when I personally accepted
Speaker 1: that the four months regression is a thing and it
Speaker 1: was happening to us. I thought it would resolve naturally.
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of you know, you give things
Speaker 1: a bit of a chance before intervening to resolve themselves,
Speaker 1: maybe as he would get more used to his routine
Speaker 1: and got more used to being home, But it didn't.
Speaker 1: It continued, I would say for maybe six weeks before
Speaker 1: I sort of actually thought about what to do. I
Speaker 1: didn't even you kind of almost don't even realize that
Speaker 1: something has become such a thing, and then my approach was, yeah,
Speaker 1: during that time, was just do anything to help him
Speaker 1: get back to sleep. When he would wake up every hour,
Speaker 1: I thought, well, he's not going to go back to
Speaker 1: sleep himself. I need to help him get back to sleep,
Speaker 1: especially in the middle of the night. You're just like,
Speaker 1: I'll do anything. So I started a habit at that
Speaker 1: time of feeding him back to sleep. But then I
Speaker 1: was feeding him so often that then he'd wet through
Speaker 1: his nappies, and then his appetite would change during his
Speaker 1: daytime feeding because I was feeding him too much at night,
Speaker 1: and so many things get thrown out of kilter during
Speaker 1: that sort of sleep disruption. It becomes such a hard cycle.
Speaker 1: I won't talk about it again too much here because
Speaker 1: I've already spoken about it in a lot in the
Speaker 1: Juggle episode, which was with my dear friend Genevieve Day,
Speaker 1: so you can go back to that one. But yeah,
Speaker 1: this is the period I was talking about where I
Speaker 1: really started to spiral and had the hardest time I've
Speaker 1: had so far in the parenting journey because I just
Speaker 1: wasn't getting enough sleep and it affects everything, your physical health,
Speaker 1: your mental health, and I mean every hour for weeks
Speaker 1: on end is really quite brutal, and I really really
Speaker 1: found it was the first time I felt like I
Speaker 1: was spiraling out of control. So if you are going
Speaker 1: through a sleep regression, it's you're so worried about your
Speaker 1: child and helping them get back to sleep, but it's
Speaker 1: also that your life kind of feels like it's spiraling
Speaker 1: out of control. And one thing that I got told
Speaker 1: a lot by so many mums who were so reassuring
Speaker 1: to me during that time was sleep deprivation is used
Speaker 1: as a form of torture. It is literally not the
Speaker 1: state that humans are supposed to exist in. It's not
Speaker 1: when you're going to be operating at your best. Like
Speaker 1: often I think there's a comparison between being sleep deprived
Speaker 1: and driving under the influence of alcohol, Like it affects
Speaker 1: everything about your thinking, your mood, your everything. So it
Speaker 1: was a really, really hard time. And yeah, you can
Speaker 1: go back to that episode to listen to sort of
Speaker 1: the emotional side effects of what was happening, But here
Speaker 1: I'm just focusing on, like physically what was going on.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we got into a really difficult cycle physically
Speaker 1: and mentally. And it's really interesting because I think a
Speaker 1: regression is often the first time, or it was for us.
Speaker 1: The four months regression anyway, was the first time that
Speaker 1: we started to think about sleep is something that you
Speaker 1: have to do anything about. Like before I just noticed
Speaker 1: Teddy was sleepy, I put him down, and then I
Speaker 1: waited until he woke up. And of course it's you know,
Speaker 1: the sleep deprivation is hard at the beginning because they're
Speaker 1: waking up a lot, and you know, their little babies,
Speaker 1: and but then it kind of improves bit by bit
Speaker 1: and then yeah, you're just kind of going following their lead.
Speaker 1: But I never really thought that I had to do
Speaker 1: anything about it. But then when there starts to be
Speaker 1: this disruption, this constant, unsustainable disruption, it was the first
Speaker 1: time I thought, oh, I actually have to proactively do
Speaker 1: something about his sleep to fix it, so to speak.
Speaker 1: And the hardest part when you get to that junction in
Speaker 1: your parent or journey, is well, what do you actually
Speaker 1: do to fix it? Like what is the action that
Speaker 1: you can take? So here is where it gets really
Speaker 1: hard because it becomes so personal to you. And basically
Speaker 1: there is an entire spectrum of options on how to
Speaker 1: approach sleep when your little one is struggling with it.
Speaker 1: And this is only you know, at this four month
Speaker 1: regression age, we haven't gone through anything further than that.
Speaker 1: So this is again even more specific to this particular
Speaker 1: regression versus others. I have no experience on any that
Speaker 1: are further down the track, but I mean, even with
Speaker 1: the basics of setting up your baby for sleep, generally,
Speaker 1: it all depends on your personal preference on whether you
Speaker 1: room share, whether you bed share, whether you have a
Speaker 1: snoop whether you don't, whether you have the heat or on,
Speaker 1: do use sleep sacks, do you swaddle like There's just
Speaker 1: so many variables even with the environment that your baby
Speaker 1: asleep in. So for this episode, I'm going to assume
Speaker 1: that you've already covered those basics and chose and what's
Speaker 1: right for you in terms of white noise machines, blocking
Speaker 1: out the light in the room, the wind down routine, sleep, clothing, temperature,
Speaker 1: the room setup, all of that, because that information is
Speaker 1: rarely available everywhere and there are just too many variables
Speaker 1: to kind of cover. But just if you are having
Speaker 1: trouble with sleep, think about those basics of setting up
Speaker 1: the room and the environment for the most positive sleep
Speaker 1: that you can. For me, in this time. My desperation
Speaker 1: came from having ticked all of those off and still
Speaker 1: not getting anywhere, still kind of having this constant waking
Speaker 1: up and knowing that it wasn't for any of those reasons.
Speaker 1: That's where my kind of research here came about. But
Speaker 1: do go on research all the other things that you
Speaker 1: can do if you're not already doing those. There's also
Speaker 1: a lot to think about in terms of how many
Speaker 1: hours each day your baby needs overall of sleep, which
Speaker 1: again varies so much, and then what's over or undertied
Speaker 1: for one baby is different for another. So there are
Speaker 1: all those factors at play in terms of helping them
Speaker 1: get the best sleep. But I'll just focus on the
Speaker 1: actual techniques to help help with fixing the sleep progression
Speaker 1: once all those things are sorted, and then you're still
Speaker 1: getting a no dice, because yeah, that's the question that
Speaker 1: I get asked the most. So the spectrum of options
Speaker 1: at one end there is do nothing, just keep going
Speaker 1: as you are, and that involves what I had been
Speaker 1: doing the whole time. It's not doing nothing, but it's
Speaker 1: like kind of not taking on an actual approach to
Speaker 1: fixing the sleep. It's just getting them back to sleep
Speaker 1: in the moment, So that involves yeah, doing whatever helps
Speaker 1: them get back to sleep, feeding them to sleep, co sleeping,
Speaker 1: whatever helps in the moment get you and your child
Speaker 1: back to sleep. That's kind of the do nothing end
Speaker 1: of the spectrum, and I think there's a lot of
Speaker 1: judgment in that area. I mean, like I said, most
Speaker 1: areas of parents are to judge it, but there's even
Speaker 1: more judgment about you shouldn't be feeding your baby to sleep,
Speaker 1: they should be falling asleep on their own. That phrase
Speaker 1: put them down drowsy but awake. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: controversy around coast. I think it's widely misunderstood. I think
Speaker 1: there's been so much like centuries of healthy co sleeping
Speaker 1: in other cultures, Like there's yeah, it's very loaded area
Speaker 1: and I won't go into it there, but at least
Speaker 1: for the purposes of this episode, there is one end
Speaker 1: of the spectrum where you just do anything to help
Speaker 1: your baby get back to sleep, without sort of teaching
Speaker 1: them anything or fixing anything. You're just doing. You're helping them,
Speaker 1: like you're kind of doing the putting them to sleep.
Speaker 1: Above all, I'll say, if it works for you and
Speaker 1: doesn't upset your balance. It's absolutely fine to just stay
Speaker 1: in that space. There's nothing wrong with feeding your baby
Speaker 1: to sleep every hour, Like, if that's absolutely your prerogative,
Speaker 1: if it doesn't affect your ability to function or enjoy
Speaker 1: your life, then absolutely go and do that. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of the literature now that's trying to say
Speaker 1: you don't need to fix that situation is Yeah, if
Speaker 1: it doesn't bother you and you're okay, and you know
Speaker 1: it's not taking away from your job or your mental
Speaker 1: health or whatever, then you absolutely can refeed to sleep,
Speaker 1: co sleep, do all those things. The only reason that
Speaker 1: I needed a solution to stop that, which I had
Speaker 1: been doing for sort of six to eight weeks, is
Speaker 1: because I got to the point where the sleep deprivation
Speaker 1: of me helping him to sleep every cycle was just
Speaker 1: taking such a heavy toll on my life. But I
Speaker 1: did definitely continue on that way for at least a
Speaker 1: few weeks. And I think the other thing is that
Speaker 1: there's so much information out there that sometimes it's actually
Speaker 1: harder to make a decision and easier just to keep struggling.
Speaker 1: So I knew from four or five weeks that it
Speaker 1: was unsustainable. I couldn't work and function and be healthy
Speaker 1: and be a good mum. If I was waking up
Speaker 1: that often, I was getting resentful, I was crabby, I
Speaker 1: was tired. I just was in a haze all the time.
Speaker 1: But I didn't know what else to do, so you
Speaker 1: just kind of keep struggling on. So yeah, it lasted
Speaker 1: again like another month before I could even process the
Speaker 1: information about what to do. So yeah, I think at
Speaker 1: that end of the spectrum, there's often you're sitting in
Speaker 1: it because you don't know what else to do. But
Speaker 1: if you choose to sit in it because it works
Speaker 1: for you, then absolutely that's fine. But for me, it
Speaker 1: inevitably got too hard, So that's when I started looking
Speaker 1: at other options. At the complete other end of the
Speaker 1: spectrum on kind of fixing the sleep is what's called
Speaker 1: sleep school, and that is often a residential program where
Speaker 1: you kind of check in with your baby, and that's
Speaker 1: the end goal is fix the sleep disruption or the regression,
Speaker 1: or if it's outside of a regression, it's just to
Speaker 1: fix the sleep generally and teach them to sleep. If
Speaker 1: it's inside of aggresson, it's obviously to fix the regression.
Speaker 1: There's also I mean again, there's also a lot of
Speaker 1: judgment at that end of the spectrum. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of judgment everywhere, but at that end of the spectrum,
Speaker 1: I think the main controversy is kind of around the
Speaker 1: idea that they're often associated sleep schools are often associated
Speaker 1: with crying it out, kind of leaving the baby overnight
Speaker 1: to just cry without you intervening. There's a lot of Again,
Speaker 1: these aren't my personal views, this is just sort of
Speaker 1: what seems to be the bulk of material out there.
Speaker 1: Judgment comes from the idea that you know, your baby
Speaker 1: might feel abandonment and all that kind of stuff. So
Speaker 1: I won't go into the moral or value based discussions
Speaker 1: because again, it all so heavily depends on your personal values,
Speaker 1: on your priorities. I'm just laying out the factual options
Speaker 1: in case it's helpful for you to know. But yeah,
Speaker 1: at the other end of the spectrum, there's sleep school.
Speaker 1: I know many people who have done this. Actually, when
Speaker 1: I first said that I was really having trouble with
Speaker 1: Teddy sleep, the answer I got, like the recommendation I
Speaker 1: got the most was for people having done one of
Speaker 1: the residential programs and saying that it has really set
Speaker 1: them and their family up well from a place of
Speaker 1: having really really struggled. So yeah, lots of people have
Speaker 1: done this and swear by it each to their own.
Speaker 1: For me, it wasn't quite in line with the approach
Speaker 1: I wanted to take, but that rapidly changes as you
Speaker 1: get further into sleep deprivation as well, so you kind
Speaker 1: of as you get more and more desperate, your views
Speaker 1: on things definitely change. And yeah, you just can't judge
Speaker 1: what any decision anyone else makes, so I did always
Speaker 1: have it up my sleeve and we live very c
Speaker 1: by to one of the sleep schools that's really well recommended,
Speaker 1: So at the time I wanted to try other things first,
Speaker 1: but it was definitely still always kind of in my mind.
Speaker 1: It may still be in future. Again, I can't rule
Speaker 1: that out either, But if you did want to research this,
Speaker 1: A few options that I got recommended a lot in
Speaker 1: Melbourne at least were Masada or Waverley Private. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure for the other states, but you can go and
Speaker 1: research that. And that's also it depends on you personally
Speaker 1: as well, if you don't have the physical or mental
Speaker 1: capacity to do any kind of sleep training at home,
Speaker 1: or it depends how many other children you have, and anyway,
Speaker 1: it depends on so many different things. But that's the
Speaker 1: other end of the spectrum. In the middle is a
Speaker 1: whole range of different approaches to I think the middle
Speaker 1: bit between nothing and sleep school is called sleep training,
Speaker 1: where you help your child with sleep, and it has
Speaker 1: varying degrees of sort of strictness or varying degrees of intensity,
Speaker 1: so to speak. And there are so many options. Like
Speaker 1: I almost didn't even do this episode because I was like,
Speaker 1: it's just too hard to explain everything because there's variables off,
Speaker 1: Like the chart of options is just too drastic. But again,
Speaker 1: I just got sick of copying and pasting my terrible answer,
Speaker 1: so I thought I could if I could be as
Speaker 1: comprehensive as I can for anyone who's listening, who's at
Speaker 1: the bit of her journey where she just can't process
Speaker 1: it and need someone to just lay out the map.
Speaker 1: Hopefully this is somewhat helpful. So there are so many
Speaker 1: options in this kind of sleep training bracket. If you
Speaker 1: don't feel like you can do it unsupported, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of in home consultants who do this as
Speaker 1: their job, and they can kind of come and do
Speaker 1: if you don't want to do, you know, check into
Speaker 1: a residential program, which is often like five to seven
Speaker 1: days full time. There are home consultants who can come
Speaker 1: to your house and they can help you with it,
Speaker 1: sort of hands on. There's also a program I heard
Speaker 1: of recently. Actually, my incredible podcast editor Sam from podcast
Speaker 1: Butler Big shout out to him. He's just such an
Speaker 1: incredible human being, and we've had babies at a very
Speaker 1: similar time, so we've been through a lot of this.
Speaker 1: He also suggested a program called Tresillian, which is you
Speaker 1: can do it online, but it's also like having an
Speaker 1: in home consultant kind of on call to look at,
Speaker 1: you know, the cues that your baby has and guide
Speaker 1: you through it with a more hands on way. So
Speaker 1: that's another option to look up. We didn't do that,
Speaker 1: but I know he had a lot of success with it.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to do the in home consultant option
Speaker 1: because I didn't think that I'd be able to kind
Speaker 1: of tolerate any level of crying from Teddy and do
Speaker 1: it myself. I just wanted the structure of having someone
Speaker 1: come in. But the people who I had turned to
Speaker 1: at the time totally understandably he didn't have any bookings
Speaker 1: like that night, which is the stage that you get
Speaker 1: to Usually by the time you're researching, you want an
Speaker 1: answer like that night, or at least to be starting
Speaker 1: something that night or the next day. And I couldn't
Speaker 1: get anything. I think it was three days away, which
Speaker 1: just shows how you feel when you're in the depths
Speaker 1: of it. That three days felt like an eternity, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I can't wait that long, like I'll
Speaker 1: book it, but I'm so desperate that I have to
Speaker 1: feel like I'm doing something in between. So I had
Speaker 1: three days at my sleeve, and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I've got nothing to lose because I feel so awful
Speaker 1: that I'll try one of the DIY methods. And the
Speaker 1: DIY methods kind of fill in the whole rest of
Speaker 1: the bulk of that middle bit of options. Some are
Speaker 1: quicker than others, some are more intense than others. There's
Speaker 1: a again, like so many options. It's really confusing because
Speaker 1: everyone uses different terminology. But you might hear words like
Speaker 1: the chair method, pick up, put down, shush, pat space, soothing.
Speaker 1: There's like so many different names. Basically, the idea is
Speaker 1: there from gradual or really gentle to kind of more
Speaker 1: intense and a bit quicker. So, as I said, they
Speaker 1: all have different names, it can be very confusing. Then
Speaker 1: some are tailored completely and don't really have a name,
Speaker 1: because if you see an at home consultant or an
Speaker 1: online consultant, they'll make something custom for you. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to lay them all out because there are just
Speaker 1: so many variations. But yes, they involve different levels of
Speaker 1: of going in and out of your baby's room after
Speaker 1: you put them down for bed, different levels of soothing
Speaker 1: when they do get upset or wake up, whether picking
Speaker 1: them up or patting them or just being in the room.
Speaker 1: And then there's different timing of the intervals of coming
Speaker 1: in and out or patting or shushing or whatever you're doing.
Speaker 1: You can see how many variables there are and why
Speaker 1: it's just going to be impossible to lay them all
Speaker 1: out what we did though, Oh my goodness, you can
Speaker 1: see why I had to copy and paste so many
Speaker 1: different things to give everyone that context before I got
Speaker 1: to this part of the answer. So you guys know
Speaker 1: that we have taken Teddy to babyspa since he was
Speaker 1: very young, absolutely loves it, and they firstly, babyspar has
Speaker 1: helped so much with his sleep because he actually gets
Speaker 1: tired out, and yeah, it's amazing for baby sleep. They
Speaker 1: also have in house sleep consultants and they saw me
Speaker 1: week by week getting more decrepit and struggling and offered
Speaker 1: to give us a bit of guidance on sleeping. And
Speaker 1: at the same time an amazing pedatrician called doctor Golly,
Speaker 1: who many of you will have heard of. He's a
Speaker 1: pre eminent pediatrician who consults out of Kabrini, which is
Speaker 1: where Teddy was born, but also has so much online information.
Speaker 1: He has an amazing Instagram page. But he also has
Speaker 1: these really comprehensive guides for all the way from newborns
Speaker 1: to toddlers and young children on everything but particularly sleep.
Speaker 1: They're routines, they're eating settling techniques. These guys are absolutely amazing.
Speaker 1: He also has some books, and a lot of my
Speaker 1: friends had used him as a pediatrician and had a
Speaker 1: lot of success with his guide. So I actually bought
Speaker 1: the guide for Teddy's age group, and I hadn't needed
Speaker 1: it because he hadn't. I sort of just hadn't opened
Speaker 1: it because I hadn't actually opened the sleep part anyway.
Speaker 1: Until this regression, and both of those things at the
Speaker 1: same time had detailed two main types of approaches and
Speaker 1: they were quite similar. And so that you know, when
Speaker 1: something you hear something from kind of more than one source,
Speaker 1: that's when your brain can kind of process it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: Doctor Gollie's guides have been amazing more broadly and gave
Speaker 1: us so much guidance. Also with all the other basics
Speaker 1: I mentioned, like the overall day plan, the sleep routine,
Speaker 1: the sleep environment, the impact of whether or not they're
Speaker 1: on solids on their sleep, what solids they're eating. Literally
Speaker 1: every aspect is covered in his Big Baby Guide, so separately,
Speaker 1: but including the sleep regression context. I highly recommend that
Speaker 1: guide and I purchased it. This wasn't sponsored or anything.
Speaker 1: I will put the link in the show notes. And
Speaker 1: he has since become our pediatrician, so that yeah, wasn't
Speaker 1: at the time, so there was no yeah. I just
Speaker 1: was trying it out and then we liked him so
Speaker 1: much that we've moved over. So back to the two
Speaker 1: front running options that we thought we had. The first
Speaker 1: one is a bit more gentle, and that's got lots
Speaker 1: of different names. I think doctor Gollie calls it the
Speaker 1: cudle to cot method. This one doesn't involve sort of
Speaker 1: leaving a baby to cry it out by themselves for
Speaker 1: any amount of time. So it's, like I said, a
Speaker 1: bit more gradual and a bit gentler, And for that reason,
Speaker 1: I think think a lot of people start with this,
Speaker 1: but you do have to be very patient and very
Speaker 1: consistent over quite a while. So the overarching idea is
Speaker 1: that you put your baby down to sleep and you
Speaker 1: stay in the room with them. When they start crying,
Speaker 1: you can settle them, you can pat them or touch
Speaker 1: them or whatever kind of soothing method that you choose,
Speaker 1: and then if they continue crying, you can pick them up,
Speaker 1: you give them a cuddle, you wait till they stop crying,
Speaker 1: and then you put them back down, and then you
Speaker 1: keep doing that process. There's a bit of variation around
Speaker 1: how long you wait when they do start crying again
Speaker 1: before you pick them up, but because you're able to
Speaker 1: console them and physically do so, you're not leaving the
Speaker 1: room and leaving them there, it is considered, yeah, a
Speaker 1: bit gentler. I was a bit more desperate at the
Speaker 1: time that we had started to read about these methods,
Speaker 1: and as much as I originally would have thought this
Speaker 1: would have been my choice because there is no crying
Speaker 1: it out. I had those three days, as I mentioned,
Speaker 1: and I really had been reassured by hearing that there
Speaker 1: was an option that And actually one of the consultants
Speaker 1: that Baby Spas said to me on the days when
Speaker 1: I was about to begin, saying, you will see results
Speaker 1: with this method. By sort of day two, you'll see
Speaker 1: some change, and by three you'll probably be back on track.
Speaker 1: And that, I mean that level of certainty sounded firstly
Speaker 1: like too good to be true. I was definitely a
Speaker 1: bit skeptical when I heard that, but it also sounded
Speaker 1: like I had to try because I was just so desperate.
Speaker 1: So the second option, which is a bit more intense,
Speaker 1: is called spaced soothing. That was the same terminology between
Speaker 1: Baby spar and Doctor Golly and a lot of other sources.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's maybe the most consistently named approach,
Speaker 1: and it's a version of controlled crying. But unlike crying
Speaker 1: it out, where you just leave the baby by themselves
Speaker 1: for an indefinite amount of time, this allows you to
Speaker 1: go in and check on them at spaced intervals, hence
Speaker 1: the spaced soothing, so it's not as intense, but there
Speaker 1: are still, of course some periods of crying, which I
Speaker 1: found absolutely devastating and so difficult. But coming back to
Speaker 1: the level of desperation I was at, but also someone
Speaker 1: pointed out to me that once, of course you've eliminated
Speaker 1: they're not in pain, they're in a safe place, they've
Speaker 1: got to clean, nappy, all of those things. They are
Speaker 1: just crying because they've gotten used to one thing and
Speaker 1: you've taken it away. It's just a change in routine,
Speaker 1: and they're crying out because you've gone from literally feeding
Speaker 1: him every hour and he wakes up expecting milk and
Speaker 1: then you don't give it to him. Of course he's
Speaker 1: going to have a little bit of a fuss about that.
Speaker 1: So that perspective really helped me get through those hard moments.
Speaker 1: Plus the duration of those intervals, which are your hard
Speaker 1: moments when you're out of the room, you're teaching them
Speaker 1: to self soothe, you're choosing how long those intervals are.
Speaker 1: Basically everyone kind of has a space soothing table with
Speaker 1: the recommended intervals to use, but then you choose what
Speaker 1: feels right for you. So yeah, I don't think there's
Speaker 1: any strict rules, and I think every table that I've
Speaker 1: seen for space soothing is different from all the different
Speaker 1: places that you'll find it. But we ended up following
Speaker 1: doctor Gollies and I'll put the link to that in
Speaker 1: the show notes. As I mentioned, so basically, what you
Speaker 1: do is you put your child with this method into
Speaker 1: their cot while they're awake, and then the idea is
Speaker 1: that you want them to fall asleep in the same
Speaker 1: place that they're going to wake up, so that, yeah,
Speaker 1: they don't get sort of scared when they do wake
Speaker 1: up in a different place, and then they can self
Speaker 1: settle themselves between the sleep cycles. So yes, you're trying
Speaker 1: to get them to fall asleep, but unlike the first method,
Speaker 1: you don't stay in there with them. You put them
Speaker 1: down and then you leave the room if they do
Speaker 1: start crying. Instead of the first method where you would
Speaker 1: sort of touch them and where you can pick them up,
Speaker 1: you go into you can go back into the room
Speaker 1: to check on them, but you don't pick them back up,
Speaker 1: and do you only remain in there for a short
Speaker 1: amount of time. I think it's around one to two
Speaker 1: minutes that you remain in the room, and then even
Speaker 1: if they don't calm down, you go back out again
Speaker 1: for another interval. So this method involves pretty much checking
Speaker 1: in and going in and out of the room, so
Speaker 1: you're never leaving them there for like an hour, you know,
Speaker 1: at once, but you are allowing them to cry by
Speaker 1: themselves for a bit, which is absolutely brutal and it
Speaker 1: hurt myself so much. I mean, it really is difficult,
Speaker 1: and I was in such a desperate position, but I
Speaker 1: did feel reassured that I could go in and I
Speaker 1: could reassure him and check on him at those intervals
Speaker 1: in between kind of leaving him for periods of time.
Speaker 1: And all of the tables will have intervals set for
Speaker 1: the first time you wait the second weight, the third weight,
Speaker 1: and any more weights, and then it will say what
Speaker 1: those are for day one that you try, Day two
Speaker 1: that you try, they get a little bit longer, day
Speaker 1: three they get a bit longer, and it kids going,
Speaker 1: And that's the bit that will change depending on who
Speaker 1: you're using as your guidance. Then, of course, if your
Speaker 1: child is getting really really distressed, or if there's any
Speaker 1: intervening circumstance like teething or something, you know, like they
Speaker 1: went through their nappy, then of course you sort of
Speaker 1: abandon it and you know, go and do what you
Speaker 1: need to do to take care of them. But in
Speaker 1: a neutral world, you are following the interval table of
Speaker 1: going in and out, and you're using a timer a
Speaker 1: lot as well, and five seconds feels like five hours.
Speaker 1: But I will say that what the baby Spark consultant
Speaker 1: said to me was absolutely true. Day one, it took
Speaker 1: an hour for him to fall asleep, But that wasn't
Speaker 1: an hour crying, you know, consistently without me. We were going
Speaker 1: in and out, in and out, in and out. But
Speaker 1: it did take an hour, and that was absolutely brutal.
Speaker 1: Day two it halved. In one night, it got down
Speaker 1: to thirty minutes for his first fall asleep, and that
Speaker 1: felt incredibly positive, even though that half an hour was
Speaker 1: still absolutely devastating. By day three it got to six minutes.
Speaker 1: So in three days I'd gone from I will never
Speaker 1: see the lad again, I'll never sleep again? Who am I?
Speaker 1: What is the universe to I've tried this thing. I
Speaker 1: had nothing to lose because we couldn't physically book in
Speaker 1: anyone until that three days time. But by day three
Speaker 1: he went to sleep by himself, and then when he
Speaker 1: did wake up crying he could resettle himself and he
Speaker 1: went back to sleep again in six minutes by himself,
Speaker 1: which blew my mind, like could not believe it. So again,
Speaker 1: this is not you know, advice backed up by anything
Speaker 1: for anyone specific. This is what worked for us. But
Speaker 1: I did find it so so reassuring to hear that
Speaker 1: this had also happened for some friends of mine, and
Speaker 1: then the fact that it did happen quite quickly for
Speaker 1: us was what I needed personally at the time to
Speaker 1: know firstly that I could get some sleep again, but
Speaker 1: also that Teddy could get some sleep again, and both
Speaker 1: of us thrived from that moment. It's been a week
Speaker 1: since then and everything has continued to be wonderful. He's
Speaker 1: sort of sleep trained, so to speak, and it just
Speaker 1: kept improving every day. There are obviously way more details
Speaker 1: in between and nuances to each technique, and that's where
Speaker 1: you sort of can go and purchase a guide or
Speaker 1: you can google it yourself. So the technique, as I said,
Speaker 1: is called space soothing, and I'll include doctor Gollies programs
Speaker 1: link as well. But the other thing is that it
Speaker 1: takes dayne apps a little while to catch up. Like
Speaker 1: often people will say work on one or the other
Speaker 1: and then the other one will follow. You don't need
Speaker 1: to kind of be fixing everything at once. You can
Speaker 1: have a couple of days like when there's teething or
Speaker 1: when they don't feel well, or daylight savings or whatever,
Speaker 1: when a routine change and travel that will feel like
Speaker 1: you go backwards a little bit, but then you just
Speaker 1: get back on track, going back to the method, and
Speaker 1: you kind of restore and find yourself again. So we
Speaker 1: did fall off the bandwagon a little bit in Fiji
Speaker 1: where we didn't have the same sleep environment. Obviously, it
Speaker 1: was a big change of routine, and I did fall
Speaker 1: back into feeding him to sleep a little bit to
Speaker 1: help him get to sleep, and then we just returned
Speaker 1: to the space soothing again when we got home, and
Speaker 1: that took two days and now we're back on track.
Speaker 1: So that's me answering the question in as much detail
Speaker 1: as I can for you guys, hoping that it is
Speaker 1: a little bit reassuring for anyone who's in the depths
Speaker 1: of it, and not that you should do exactly that,
Speaker 1: but just the fact that there is something you can
Speaker 1: do and maybe a starting point for you to go
Speaker 1: and do a little bit of research for yourselves. But
Speaker 1: above all that, you know there is an end insight,
Speaker 1: and it's hard no matter what you choose. Sleep deprivation
Speaker 1: is just so brutal, and this area is so emotionally charged.
Speaker 1: But I just am sending so much I'm literally speechless.
Speaker 1: I'm sending so much love to anyone going through it.
Speaker 1: It really is one of the most brutal things I've
Speaker 1: ever gone through. And who knows if I'll use that
Speaker 1: same approach next time. Who knows what next time we'll
Speaker 1: look at. Above all, I really am at pains to
Speaker 1: say that this is anecdotal only and hopefully just a
Speaker 1: guide reassurance if anything, like all of these episodes, but
Speaker 1: I did want to just make sure I had it
Speaker 1: all set out somewhere so that yeah, my silly copy
Speaker 1: and paste or literal screenshots of my typing stopped being
Speaker 1: sent and I could send a proper link to an
Speaker 1: episode where I laid it out as best I could.
Speaker 1: So sending you all so much love. I'm so glad
Speaker 1: you're enjoying this segment. I probably should have got doctor
Speaker 1: Golli or one of the babis Bar consultants on to
Speaker 1: add a more authoritative voice, but yes, that's me answering
Speaker 1: as best I can, and there are lots more topics
Speaker 1: to come. As always, let me know if you have
Speaker 1: any further questions or any feedback or any request for
Speaker 1: further topics on the next season baby episode. And we
Speaker 1: also have some other amazing guests coming up. So I
Speaker 1: hope you guys are all loving it so far and
Speaker 1: in the meantime seizing you're yay. Thank you for coming
Speaker 1: to my Ted Talk