1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:14,007 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mom and Me a podcast. Mama 2 00:00:14,047 --> 00:00:16,887 Speaker 1: Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that 3 00:00:16,927 --> 00:00:19,447 Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on. Hey out loud as, it's 4 00:00:19,527 --> 00:00:23,207 Speaker 1: me Or here and welcome to your Sunday special. Now 5 00:00:23,447 --> 00:00:24,967 Speaker 1: as out loud as, you know a lot about me. 6 00:00:25,167 --> 00:00:28,007 Speaker 1: My co hosts know a lot about me. The Internet, 7 00:00:28,087 --> 00:00:31,247 Speaker 1: frankly knows a lot about me. But there is one 8 00:00:31,287 --> 00:00:34,567 Speaker 1: story that I have never shared with anyone before, and 9 00:00:34,607 --> 00:00:37,087 Speaker 1: it might surprise you to hear it because this one 10 00:00:37,167 --> 00:00:41,527 Speaker 1: time I accidentally joined a cult. And the story came 11 00:00:41,567 --> 00:00:44,727 Speaker 1: out by accident because recently on No Filter, I interviewed 12 00:00:45,127 --> 00:00:47,767 Speaker 1: a woman called Bethany Joe Lenz, who you might remember 13 00:00:47,767 --> 00:00:51,287 Speaker 1: from the TV show One Tree Hill, and she spoke 14 00:00:51,367 --> 00:00:54,247 Speaker 1: about how she'd been involved in this awful cult for 15 00:00:54,487 --> 00:00:57,727 Speaker 1: like ten years and she'd ended up marrying the leader 16 00:00:57,767 --> 00:01:00,127 Speaker 1: of the coult and they took all her money. It 17 00:01:00,127 --> 00:01:02,047 Speaker 1: was a whole thing, and it was a very hectic story. 18 00:01:02,767 --> 00:01:05,007 Speaker 1: And at the end of that interview, I just dropped 19 00:01:05,047 --> 00:01:08,327 Speaker 1: a comment about how I too had once accidentally joined 20 00:01:08,327 --> 00:01:11,447 Speaker 1: a cult. And that is when my executive producer on 21 00:01:11,527 --> 00:01:15,327 Speaker 1: No Filter, Nama Brown, decided to keep the mics running 22 00:01:15,887 --> 00:01:19,207 Speaker 1: and sit down and ask me a few questions. So 23 00:01:19,287 --> 00:01:21,847 Speaker 1: here it is that one time I joined a cult. 24 00:01:23,207 --> 00:01:27,327 Speaker 1: This woman, she's been doing this work and it's making 25 00:01:27,367 --> 00:01:30,647 Speaker 1: her younger and younger, and soon she's going to go 26 00:01:30,767 --> 00:01:34,727 Speaker 1: back to because she's Jesus Christ. And I was just like, 27 00:01:35,647 --> 00:01:48,767 Speaker 1: I'm out, instantly, instantly from MoMA May. You're listening to 28 00:01:48,847 --> 00:01:52,447 Speaker 1: no Filter and this is the weirdest episode I've ever 29 00:01:52,527 --> 00:01:55,007 Speaker 1: brought you. I'm me a Friedman. I should have said that, 30 00:01:55,647 --> 00:01:58,567 Speaker 1: And the guest today is kind of me. I've never 31 00:01:58,567 --> 00:02:01,487 Speaker 1: spoken about this before, and I didn't really mean to, 32 00:02:02,087 --> 00:02:04,767 Speaker 1: I guess because I'm a little bit ashamed. But let 33 00:02:04,767 --> 00:02:06,727 Speaker 1: me go back a little bit and give you context. 34 00:02:06,767 --> 00:02:10,447 Speaker 1: A few weeks ago I interviewed Bethany Joy Lentz, who 35 00:02:11,407 --> 00:02:14,007 Speaker 1: was in One Tree Hill and that was a big 36 00:02:14,087 --> 00:02:16,647 Speaker 1: culty TV show. And at the same time she was 37 00:02:16,687 --> 00:02:19,207 Speaker 1: on this TV show and was famous all over the world, 38 00:02:19,727 --> 00:02:24,327 Speaker 1: she was in an actual cult, a religious, highly controlling cult, 39 00:02:24,647 --> 00:02:28,727 Speaker 1: which took her money, compromised her mental health. There was 40 00:02:28,767 --> 00:02:33,327 Speaker 1: abuse involved. It was a fascinating story and a harrowing 41 00:02:33,367 --> 00:02:36,327 Speaker 1: story at times. We'll put a link in the show notes, 42 00:02:36,367 --> 00:02:38,727 Speaker 1: so if you missed that, you can go listen to it. 43 00:02:39,407 --> 00:02:42,007 Speaker 1: But after we finished the interview, I was just doing 44 00:02:42,047 --> 00:02:44,847 Speaker 1: the outro and the end credits, and I casually mentioned 45 00:02:44,847 --> 00:02:48,487 Speaker 1: that I accidentally joined a cult one time, and my producer, 46 00:02:48,727 --> 00:02:51,807 Speaker 1: Nama Brown, this is why she's such an incredible producer, 47 00:02:52,847 --> 00:02:56,967 Speaker 1: she kind of said, wait, what can we talk about that? 48 00:02:57,047 --> 00:02:59,287 Speaker 1: Can we keep the mics running? And we did, And 49 00:02:59,327 --> 00:03:02,527 Speaker 1: I really didn't want to overshadow. I couldn't overshadow Bethany 50 00:03:02,687 --> 00:03:06,487 Speaker 1: joy Lenz the story because my experience was nothing like hers, 51 00:03:06,887 --> 00:03:09,567 Speaker 1: and it was a much milder version and her story 52 00:03:09,607 --> 00:03:12,527 Speaker 1: stands alone. But I didn't want to detract from it anyway. 53 00:03:12,807 --> 00:03:14,847 Speaker 1: I sat on it for a few weeks and I thought, 54 00:03:15,607 --> 00:03:17,967 Speaker 1: do I want to put this out there? Do I 55 00:03:18,047 --> 00:03:19,967 Speaker 1: not want to put this out there? And I use 56 00:03:20,087 --> 00:03:23,767 Speaker 1: the same filter that I always use when talking about 57 00:03:23,767 --> 00:03:27,687 Speaker 1: something personal and for choosing guests for this show, and 58 00:03:27,727 --> 00:03:31,047 Speaker 1: that is, there's someone out there who's wound is in 59 00:03:31,087 --> 00:03:34,367 Speaker 1: the shape of your words. And more than that, there's 60 00:03:34,367 --> 00:03:37,687 Speaker 1: someone out there who hasn't got the wound yet. Not 61 00:03:37,767 --> 00:03:41,087 Speaker 1: to torture an analogy, but there's someone out there who 62 00:03:41,087 --> 00:03:44,487 Speaker 1: will get this wound one day and she will look 63 00:03:44,567 --> 00:03:47,927 Speaker 1: back and think about your words and they will help 64 00:03:48,887 --> 00:03:53,327 Speaker 1: soothe her wound. If anyone's still listening, I did decide 65 00:03:53,367 --> 00:03:55,087 Speaker 1: that I would share that story. So I'm going to 66 00:03:55,167 --> 00:03:58,447 Speaker 1: play you now the conversation I had with Nie, who 67 00:03:58,487 --> 00:04:01,767 Speaker 1: is the executive producer of this show and a very trusted, 68 00:04:03,007 --> 00:04:05,847 Speaker 1: skilled interviewer. Actually, it's weird for me to be on 69 00:04:05,887 --> 00:04:07,687 Speaker 1: the other side of the microphone, but there we go. 70 00:04:08,047 --> 00:04:08,847 Speaker 2: So let's do it. 71 00:04:12,247 --> 00:04:14,087 Speaker 3: Lay the scene from me. Where were you in your 72 00:04:14,087 --> 00:04:16,687 Speaker 3: life when you encountered. 73 00:04:16,287 --> 00:04:23,727 Speaker 1: This great question? So I was in my probably late 74 00:04:23,767 --> 00:04:30,607 Speaker 1: twenties early thirties. I had one child. I had lost 75 00:04:30,967 --> 00:04:35,447 Speaker 1: a baby halfway through my second pregnancy, and very soon 76 00:04:35,527 --> 00:04:38,647 Speaker 1: after that, a few months after that, my marriage to 77 00:04:38,687 --> 00:04:42,687 Speaker 1: the father of both of those children ended and we separated, 78 00:04:42,807 --> 00:04:48,047 Speaker 1: and it was a time of I was the editor 79 00:04:48,087 --> 00:04:50,047 Speaker 1: of Cosmo at the time, so I had this big job, 80 00:04:50,767 --> 00:04:52,607 Speaker 1: but I was a single mum for a few years. 81 00:04:52,847 --> 00:04:56,207 Speaker 1: And then through that time I was seeing a therapist 82 00:04:56,247 --> 00:04:59,927 Speaker 1: who was a great therapist, and she used kinesiology as 83 00:05:00,007 --> 00:05:03,807 Speaker 1: part of her you know therapy that like the touch 84 00:05:03,967 --> 00:05:07,447 Speaker 1: kind of anesiology is kind of like that book The 85 00:05:07,447 --> 00:05:09,647 Speaker 1: Body knows the score. So it's sort of like I'm 86 00:05:09,647 --> 00:05:12,967 Speaker 1: going to mangle it and forgive me. But it's when 87 00:05:13,007 --> 00:05:16,207 Speaker 1: you push up on someone's hand and they sort of 88 00:05:16,327 --> 00:05:19,767 Speaker 1: do things, and it's sort of meant to cut bypass 89 00:05:19,847 --> 00:05:23,607 Speaker 1: your conscious and sort of go to what is actually true. 90 00:05:23,767 --> 00:05:27,927 Speaker 3: So asking she was asking your body questions, yes, exactly, 91 00:05:28,087 --> 00:05:32,247 Speaker 3: and I'd gone to, you know, I'm this very interesting. 92 00:05:32,807 --> 00:05:37,727 Speaker 1: I'm so interesting. I'm this weird mix of science and 93 00:05:37,767 --> 00:05:41,927 Speaker 1: woo woo, like I am vaccinations, science up the wazoo, 94 00:05:42,047 --> 00:05:45,127 Speaker 1: like you know, give me the prescription medication. I love 95 00:05:45,167 --> 00:05:47,647 Speaker 1: all of that. I love an antibiotic. But then there's 96 00:05:47,687 --> 00:05:51,207 Speaker 1: also a kind of spiritual side of me, which you know, 97 00:05:51,527 --> 00:05:55,687 Speaker 1: is interested in my intuition and energy and all of 98 00:05:55,687 --> 00:05:58,167 Speaker 1: those kinds of things. I'm quite sensitive to energy. If 99 00:05:58,207 --> 00:05:59,967 Speaker 1: I'm around people who are on drugs, I can pick 100 00:06:00,007 --> 00:06:01,727 Speaker 1: up their energy and I don't like the feeling of it. 101 00:06:02,647 --> 00:06:07,607 Speaker 1: So I'd been to a natural path or ostive homopat 102 00:06:07,647 --> 00:06:11,367 Speaker 1: whatever who'd use kinesiology before to treat medical things. I 103 00:06:11,407 --> 00:06:13,167 Speaker 1: can't remember what they were, And again I would never 104 00:06:13,207 --> 00:06:16,367 Speaker 1: have used that instead of traditional medicine. But I was 105 00:06:16,407 --> 00:06:18,327 Speaker 1: just sort of open to it, and I'm like, what's 106 00:06:18,327 --> 00:06:23,167 Speaker 1: the harm, Like, what's the harm? So I encountered kinesiology before, 107 00:06:24,047 --> 00:06:28,207 Speaker 1: and so I found it helpful in therapy, where sometimes 108 00:06:28,327 --> 00:06:29,847 Speaker 1: I just found it it would be a bit of 109 00:06:29,847 --> 00:06:33,847 Speaker 1: a shortcut where you know, sometimes when it's talk therapy, 110 00:06:34,647 --> 00:06:36,967 Speaker 1: you say something, but it takes you a long time 111 00:06:37,007 --> 00:06:39,927 Speaker 1: to get to what you actually feel or and so 112 00:06:40,007 --> 00:06:43,847 Speaker 1: I just found it helpful. So anyway, then there was 113 00:06:43,887 --> 00:06:46,047 Speaker 1: something going on where I got back together with my 114 00:06:46,127 --> 00:06:49,527 Speaker 1: husband and we started trying for another baby, and I 115 00:06:49,607 --> 00:06:53,167 Speaker 1: was struggling and I just couldn't get pregnant. I was 116 00:06:53,167 --> 00:06:56,247 Speaker 1: struggling with what's called secondary in fertility, which is when 117 00:06:56,287 --> 00:07:00,487 Speaker 1: you've had one live birth but then you can't get 118 00:07:00,527 --> 00:07:05,047 Speaker 1: pregnant again. And I was just feeling so messed up. 119 00:07:05,087 --> 00:07:08,447 Speaker 1: And so my therapist suggested that I go and see 120 00:07:08,727 --> 00:07:14,727 Speaker 1: her kinesiology teacher and for like a high level extra 121 00:07:14,967 --> 00:07:18,087 Speaker 1: sort of you got bumped earing. I got bumped up, right, 122 00:07:18,167 --> 00:07:20,687 Speaker 1: And so I was like, I was really vulnerable because 123 00:07:20,687 --> 00:07:23,367 Speaker 1: I felt desperate. I felt like my body didn't work. 124 00:07:23,407 --> 00:07:27,527 Speaker 1: I felt like I was failing in every way. And 125 00:07:27,567 --> 00:07:29,687 Speaker 1: so she sent me to this woman who was like 126 00:07:30,727 --> 00:07:33,567 Speaker 1: really interesting. She just operated like out of a house 127 00:07:33,607 --> 00:07:37,007 Speaker 1: in her suburb, and she had this quite fancy house, 128 00:07:37,047 --> 00:07:39,727 Speaker 1: and she had this sort of sidekick and she did 129 00:07:39,727 --> 00:07:43,767 Speaker 1: this energy clearing and it was like, you know, this 130 00:07:43,847 --> 00:07:45,847 Speaker 1: is this energy that's been put on you all these 131 00:07:45,927 --> 00:07:48,847 Speaker 1: years ago, and I'm going to clear it. And part 132 00:07:48,887 --> 00:07:51,887 Speaker 1: of me was like, are you though, like whether it's 133 00:07:51,927 --> 00:07:53,087 Speaker 1: a placebo, I don't know. 134 00:07:53,287 --> 00:07:56,447 Speaker 3: Had you ever done anything like that before, like to 135 00:07:56,527 --> 00:07:57,327 Speaker 3: that degree? 136 00:07:58,167 --> 00:08:00,927 Speaker 1: Well, I guess I had never. I don't go to 137 00:08:01,647 --> 00:08:03,567 Speaker 1: I've never been to a fortune teller or a tire 138 00:08:03,647 --> 00:08:05,607 Speaker 1: card so in that way, I don't do any of that. 139 00:08:05,647 --> 00:08:08,007 Speaker 1: But in terms of energy, I think because I can 140 00:08:08,087 --> 00:08:11,327 Speaker 1: feel energy in me, I'm open to the idea of 141 00:08:11,647 --> 00:08:14,807 Speaker 1: having it cleared. And because in my therapy sometimes she 142 00:08:14,847 --> 00:08:17,487 Speaker 1: would sort of clear energy. We hold other people's stuff, right, 143 00:08:17,567 --> 00:08:20,847 Speaker 1: like we all know what that's like. So I believed 144 00:08:20,887 --> 00:08:23,807 Speaker 1: in that. But then this sort of went to a 145 00:08:23,807 --> 00:08:25,647 Speaker 1: bit of another level where it was like this thing 146 00:08:25,687 --> 00:08:29,247 Speaker 1: happened in seventeen and it sounds so embarrassing to even say, 147 00:08:29,287 --> 00:08:33,567 Speaker 1: because like how awkward, Like that was obviously just crazy, 148 00:08:33,607 --> 00:08:35,127 Speaker 1: And then you had to pay all this money and 149 00:08:35,167 --> 00:08:38,047 Speaker 1: one time her credit card facilities weren't working, so you 150 00:08:38,087 --> 00:08:41,847 Speaker 1: had to pay cash. And it was like, it doesn't 151 00:08:41,887 --> 00:08:44,887 Speaker 1: actually sound crazy to me, though, okay, good, I mean 152 00:08:45,047 --> 00:08:48,447 Speaker 1: it feels it's the intersection of the vulnerability that you've 153 00:08:48,607 --> 00:08:51,207 Speaker 1: described because of where you were in your life, but 154 00:08:51,287 --> 00:08:54,007 Speaker 1: also a lot of those as you say that, that 155 00:08:54,087 --> 00:08:56,567 Speaker 1: kind of mix of science and wu wu, sometimes the 156 00:08:56,607 --> 00:08:59,847 Speaker 1: science doesn't have what you need in that moment. Yeah, 157 00:09:00,167 --> 00:09:04,367 Speaker 1: I guess what I needed was hope, and I needed 158 00:09:05,167 --> 00:09:07,767 Speaker 1: to feel like I was doing something like I was. 159 00:09:07,807 --> 00:09:09,567 Speaker 2: You can't prescribe hope to you. 160 00:09:09,367 --> 00:09:14,407 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and I wasn't. I liked the idea that maybe, 161 00:09:14,607 --> 00:09:16,807 Speaker 1: like how could it hurt? Like it could only help? 162 00:09:16,807 --> 00:09:18,807 Speaker 1: But I was desperate. I was vulnerable, and I was desperate, 163 00:09:18,847 --> 00:09:22,887 Speaker 1: and there's a particular kind of crazed mental state of 164 00:09:22,887 --> 00:09:27,847 Speaker 1: infertility that you just aren't entirely rational, or I certainly 165 00:09:27,927 --> 00:09:31,647 Speaker 1: I wasn't. And so then I decided that I was 166 00:09:31,647 --> 00:09:34,087 Speaker 1: going to do this kinesiology course that this woman took, 167 00:09:35,007 --> 00:09:37,607 Speaker 1: and so it was a weekend sort of workshop and 168 00:09:37,647 --> 00:09:41,127 Speaker 1: I went to do it, and as part of it, 169 00:09:41,247 --> 00:09:46,247 Speaker 1: she then was a medium and spoke, Oh this just 170 00:09:46,247 --> 00:09:47,967 Speaker 1: sounds so weird, but she kind of went into this 171 00:09:48,007 --> 00:09:52,007 Speaker 1: trance and spoke Saint Jude or there was some spirit 172 00:09:52,047 --> 00:09:55,287 Speaker 1: that came through her and I don't know. And then 173 00:09:55,287 --> 00:09:57,887 Speaker 1: there were just so many kind of little red flags, 174 00:09:57,927 --> 00:10:00,207 Speaker 1: like you could pay to do the course for someone else. 175 00:10:00,767 --> 00:10:03,447 Speaker 1: So there were people who'd been there multiple times, they'd 176 00:10:03,447 --> 00:10:04,767 Speaker 1: done it for them, and now they were doing it 177 00:10:04,767 --> 00:10:07,767 Speaker 1: for their son or their mother or their partner who 178 00:10:07,767 --> 00:10:11,007 Speaker 1: maybe didn't believe, but they belie believed that this energy 179 00:10:11,047 --> 00:10:15,007 Speaker 1: clearing course or this kinesiology course, yeah, I just got. 180 00:10:15,207 --> 00:10:17,727 Speaker 1: And then this group would meet every so often, and 181 00:10:17,767 --> 00:10:20,007 Speaker 1: I remember when bird flu went around, we all went 182 00:10:20,087 --> 00:10:22,647 Speaker 1: and paid and she did this sort of energy clearing 183 00:10:22,967 --> 00:10:24,527 Speaker 1: so that we wouldn't get SARS. 184 00:10:24,967 --> 00:10:25,807 Speaker 2: It's pre COVID. 185 00:10:27,407 --> 00:10:31,047 Speaker 1: And it just became because I was trying, and I 186 00:10:31,087 --> 00:10:33,567 Speaker 1: don't know if I was actually pregnant by this stage. 187 00:10:34,287 --> 00:10:38,927 Speaker 1: It then became well, I've been doing it. If I 188 00:10:39,047 --> 00:10:41,767 Speaker 1: stopped doing it, what if I lose this pregnancy? 189 00:10:43,087 --> 00:10:43,887 Speaker 3: Magical thinking. 190 00:10:44,007 --> 00:10:47,127 Speaker 1: Magical thinking. And I've got a friend who would also 191 00:10:47,127 --> 00:10:49,807 Speaker 1: experience infertility. And she had some kind of crystal that 192 00:10:49,887 --> 00:10:52,287 Speaker 1: someone had given her and she attached it to her 193 00:10:52,407 --> 00:10:54,727 Speaker 1: arm and she then became very superstitious and she had 194 00:10:54,767 --> 00:10:58,687 Speaker 1: to wear this crystal for her entire pregnancy because it 195 00:10:58,727 --> 00:11:00,607 Speaker 1: does become this magical thinking, right. 196 00:11:00,727 --> 00:11:03,967 Speaker 3: And it's not worth fucking with the idea. You might 197 00:11:04,007 --> 00:11:08,567 Speaker 3: be wrong, but it's what's the value? Yeah, and changing course, 198 00:11:09,247 --> 00:11:11,487 Speaker 3: suddenly you feel like you're heading in the direction you 199 00:11:11,487 --> 00:11:12,087 Speaker 3: want to be on. 200 00:11:12,567 --> 00:11:15,407 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And so that everything that good happens you 201 00:11:15,527 --> 00:11:18,687 Speaker 1: credit to this thing that you're doing, and everything that 202 00:11:18,847 --> 00:11:22,007 Speaker 1: bad happens, it's maybe because you're not doing it enough. 203 00:11:35,127 --> 00:11:37,647 Speaker 3: Can I ask how much that can? You might remember 204 00:11:37,687 --> 00:11:39,447 Speaker 3: exactly how much? But was it costly? 205 00:11:39,607 --> 00:11:41,447 Speaker 1: Yeah? I reckon it was a couple of thousand dollars. 206 00:11:41,847 --> 00:11:44,967 Speaker 3: And my other question is did she know who you 207 00:11:45,007 --> 00:11:48,287 Speaker 3: were that you, you know, were a high level, very successful 208 00:11:48,767 --> 00:11:52,847 Speaker 3: executive woman who had a bit of influence. 209 00:11:53,247 --> 00:11:55,447 Speaker 2: And I ask this because you look. 210 00:11:55,287 --> 00:11:58,007 Speaker 3: At something like scientology, right, and how they need They've 211 00:11:58,047 --> 00:12:02,087 Speaker 3: got their minions, their legions, but they need their Tom Cruisers. Yeah, 212 00:12:02,127 --> 00:12:04,607 Speaker 3: so was it this idea that you had the the 213 00:12:04,647 --> 00:12:06,127 Speaker 3: tom cruise of the kinesiology. 214 00:12:06,527 --> 00:12:09,087 Speaker 1: We never spoke about it, So if that was the case, 215 00:12:09,567 --> 00:12:12,767 Speaker 1: she obviously I didn't hide what I did. It was 216 00:12:12,807 --> 00:12:18,167 Speaker 1: pre social media, kind of pre internet, almost so you know, 217 00:12:18,327 --> 00:12:21,647 Speaker 1: I probably didn't have the same level of profile then 218 00:12:21,687 --> 00:12:25,247 Speaker 1: that I did now, but she knew who I was, 219 00:12:26,047 --> 00:12:31,007 Speaker 1: and I think that that came to bear when I 220 00:12:31,047 --> 00:12:34,087 Speaker 1: started to pull away. I think that they recognized that 221 00:12:34,287 --> 00:12:36,647 Speaker 1: she recognized that there was some danger. So it was 222 00:12:36,647 --> 00:12:39,967 Speaker 1: in this like church hall, and everyone would bring a plate, 223 00:12:40,087 --> 00:12:42,807 Speaker 1: and it was like you had to say these kind 224 00:12:42,807 --> 00:12:48,687 Speaker 1: of prayers and stuff, and you know, I knew that, 225 00:12:48,767 --> 00:12:52,647 Speaker 1: Like my husband was like, but he didn't want to. 226 00:12:53,887 --> 00:12:56,367 Speaker 1: It wasn't costing us like a huge amount of money 227 00:12:56,407 --> 00:12:59,247 Speaker 1: at this stage, and I was so desperate and he 228 00:12:59,287 --> 00:13:02,367 Speaker 1: felt so inadequate to help me with these feelings that 229 00:13:02,407 --> 00:13:05,887 Speaker 1: I had around main fertility and the baby that i'd lost. 230 00:13:07,287 --> 00:13:11,327 Speaker 1: He kind of yeah, Luckily it didn't get to the 231 00:13:11,367 --> 00:13:14,567 Speaker 1: point where he had to intervene, But I don't know 232 00:13:14,607 --> 00:13:16,407 Speaker 1: how I would have felt if he had of, because 233 00:13:16,527 --> 00:13:19,407 Speaker 1: to me, I'd always been very superstitious. Fully enough, I 234 00:13:19,447 --> 00:13:22,167 Speaker 1: went through a whole thing of touching wood like I 235 00:13:23,087 --> 00:13:25,647 Speaker 1: would carry, not at this time, but earlier in my life, 236 00:13:25,687 --> 00:13:28,087 Speaker 1: I would carry like a stick with me in the 237 00:13:28,127 --> 00:13:30,087 Speaker 1: car everywhere because I'd need to touch wood all the 238 00:13:30,127 --> 00:13:31,687 Speaker 1: time to prevent bad things. 239 00:13:31,767 --> 00:13:35,407 Speaker 3: Happening and superstition in my experience, because I'm a bit 240 00:13:35,487 --> 00:13:37,767 Speaker 3: saying it's hand in hand with anxiety. 241 00:13:38,287 --> 00:13:40,847 Speaker 2: Ah yeah, right, because it's didn't you find, I mean 242 00:13:41,007 --> 00:13:41,367 Speaker 2: something of it. 243 00:13:41,407 --> 00:13:43,087 Speaker 3: What if I forget my stick for. 244 00:13:43,167 --> 00:13:45,687 Speaker 1: That day and I didn't know I had anxiety, then yeah, 245 00:13:45,767 --> 00:13:47,007 Speaker 1: I didn't have a name for it. 246 00:13:47,247 --> 00:13:49,967 Speaker 3: It was a substitute for what you've learned about yourself. 247 00:13:50,087 --> 00:13:51,407 Speaker 2: Since that's very true. 248 00:13:51,567 --> 00:13:56,567 Speaker 1: That's very true. And so I just know exactly the 249 00:13:56,607 --> 00:13:59,007 Speaker 1: minute that it all came away from me where I 250 00:13:59,047 --> 00:14:04,807 Speaker 1: started going more regularly to these group sessions. And I 251 00:14:04,807 --> 00:14:07,727 Speaker 1: remember this one. It was on a weekend and I 252 00:14:07,807 --> 00:14:10,367 Speaker 1: was talking to in my therapist. Kids were there, and 253 00:14:11,087 --> 00:14:15,207 Speaker 1: I was talking to this woman in the lunch break 254 00:14:15,807 --> 00:14:17,727 Speaker 1: and she was saying how the kind of the leader. 255 00:14:17,847 --> 00:14:20,047 Speaker 1: And this woman was quite charismatic, and there was all 256 00:14:20,087 --> 00:14:22,207 Speaker 1: the stuff around her. She was old, like she was 257 00:14:22,367 --> 00:14:24,007 Speaker 1: I shouldn't say that old. She looked that much older 258 00:14:24,007 --> 00:14:25,247 Speaker 1: than me now, but like she would have been in 259 00:14:25,287 --> 00:14:26,967 Speaker 1: her late sixties. 260 00:14:27,167 --> 00:14:31,527 Speaker 3: So gravitas experience, Yeah, yeah, yeah, And she had this 261 00:14:31,567 --> 00:14:34,367 Speaker 3: sort of offsider who kind of you know, there was 262 00:14:34,407 --> 00:14:36,887 Speaker 3: all this oh she she was kind of like a 263 00:14:36,887 --> 00:14:38,567 Speaker 3: big deal and she was just like this small she 264 00:14:38,647 --> 00:14:41,887 Speaker 3: just looks up some grandma, but she spoke and then 265 00:14:41,927 --> 00:14:43,807 Speaker 3: she channeled this JUDEO. 266 00:14:43,927 --> 00:14:46,887 Speaker 1: I can't even remember who it was anymore anyway. So 267 00:14:46,927 --> 00:14:49,487 Speaker 1: I was talking to this person at lunch and she'd 268 00:14:49,527 --> 00:14:54,287 Speaker 1: sort of been around this for many years, and she said, oh, yeah, 269 00:14:54,567 --> 00:14:57,607 Speaker 1: the woman whose name I can't even remember. Actually I can, 270 00:14:57,687 --> 00:15:00,367 Speaker 1: but I won't say it. This woman she's been doing 271 00:15:00,407 --> 00:15:04,287 Speaker 1: this work and it's making her younger because all the 272 00:15:04,287 --> 00:15:07,567 Speaker 1: work she's doing, she's getting younger and younger, and soon 273 00:15:08,287 --> 00:15:11,087 Speaker 1: she's going to go back to because she's Jesus Christ. 274 00:15:11,967 --> 00:15:15,367 Speaker 1: And I was just like, I'm out, okay. 275 00:15:15,367 --> 00:15:17,087 Speaker 3: So my eyebrows just hit the scend again. 276 00:15:17,047 --> 00:15:19,327 Speaker 1: And mine did too, and I was like, it just 277 00:15:19,407 --> 00:15:22,407 Speaker 1: popped a bubble for me, and I just went, okay, 278 00:15:22,487 --> 00:15:26,287 Speaker 1: I'm out instantly, instantly, moment. And this woman was very earnest, 279 00:15:26,367 --> 00:15:28,647 Speaker 1: and it's like this person is actually Jesus Christ, and 280 00:15:28,687 --> 00:15:31,887 Speaker 1: she's doing this processing work and all the time she's 281 00:15:31,927 --> 00:15:34,567 Speaker 1: doing it on herself, and she's getting younger and younger, 282 00:15:34,567 --> 00:15:36,687 Speaker 1: and haven't you noticed that she's looking younger and younger. 283 00:15:37,047 --> 00:15:39,207 Speaker 1: And the end result of this is that she's going 284 00:15:39,287 --> 00:15:43,967 Speaker 1: to be come Jesus Christ, and I just went, okay, bye, 285 00:15:43,967 --> 00:15:45,887 Speaker 1: and I left. I literally left. I didn't even go 286 00:15:45,927 --> 00:15:47,927 Speaker 1: back after night that moment. In that moment, I left. 287 00:15:48,407 --> 00:15:55,367 Speaker 1: And then what happened was that I talked to my therapist, 288 00:15:55,647 --> 00:15:57,647 Speaker 1: and again, this was all such a breach now that 289 00:15:57,687 --> 00:15:59,527 Speaker 1: I look back, and she was a great therapist, but 290 00:15:59,967 --> 00:16:01,567 Speaker 1: you know, I think she was in a cult, so 291 00:16:01,687 --> 00:16:03,527 Speaker 1: I think that she didn't know what she was doing. 292 00:16:04,847 --> 00:16:07,607 Speaker 1: But she said something to me when I told her 293 00:16:07,647 --> 00:16:09,887 Speaker 1: that I wasn't going anymore, and she was kind of 294 00:16:09,887 --> 00:16:12,367 Speaker 1: pressuring me to go, and it was like, oh, if 295 00:16:12,407 --> 00:16:15,007 Speaker 1: you need this extra level of cleansing, it's going to 296 00:16:15,087 --> 00:16:17,367 Speaker 1: be like ten thousand dollars. And I also just knew, like, 297 00:16:17,447 --> 00:16:18,847 Speaker 1: that's just not a thing that I'm going to do 298 00:16:19,007 --> 00:16:22,847 Speaker 1: now talking about how the World family used this special 299 00:16:22,927 --> 00:16:26,527 Speaker 1: thing and they paid all this money to rehabilitate Camilla 300 00:16:26,607 --> 00:16:28,247 Speaker 1: in the eyes of the world, and that's why we 301 00:16:28,287 --> 00:16:31,767 Speaker 1: all love Camilla. It anyway, it all there were things 302 00:16:31,767 --> 00:16:35,607 Speaker 1: that kind of made sense but were all so completely preposterous, 303 00:16:35,647 --> 00:16:39,327 Speaker 1: so just enough to go, oh, it does seem weird 304 00:16:39,367 --> 00:16:40,567 Speaker 1: that we all like Camilla. 305 00:16:40,607 --> 00:16:42,207 Speaker 2: Now, did that happen. 306 00:16:42,287 --> 00:16:47,207 Speaker 1: So this like just plausible credibility, just a wedge into 307 00:16:47,247 --> 00:16:50,047 Speaker 1: your logical mind, just enough to get their foot in 308 00:16:50,047 --> 00:16:52,247 Speaker 1: the door and ask for some money. And I was 309 00:16:52,287 --> 00:16:55,247 Speaker 1: pregnant at the time, and I remember she said to 310 00:16:55,287 --> 00:16:57,207 Speaker 1: me something and I said, I'm just not going to 311 00:16:57,287 --> 00:17:00,247 Speaker 1: do it anymore. And she said something to me about 312 00:17:00,887 --> 00:17:03,527 Speaker 1: I can't remember her words, but I said to her, 313 00:17:04,127 --> 00:17:06,647 Speaker 1: that feels like a threat. I feel really uncomfortable you 314 00:17:06,727 --> 00:17:08,767 Speaker 1: saying that, because it was kind of implying that maybe 315 00:17:08,807 --> 00:17:12,007 Speaker 1: my pregnant she wouldn't hold if I didn't keep going back. 316 00:17:13,887 --> 00:17:15,887 Speaker 1: And she said, oh, no, I don't mean for it 317 00:17:15,927 --> 00:17:19,447 Speaker 1: to be that. And then she called me back and 318 00:17:19,487 --> 00:17:22,087 Speaker 1: she said, I spoke to Blah blah and said that 319 00:17:22,127 --> 00:17:24,727 Speaker 1: you weren't going to be coming anymore. And she said 320 00:17:24,727 --> 00:17:28,767 Speaker 1: to make it very clear that it wasn't a threat 321 00:17:29,607 --> 00:17:33,287 Speaker 1: and that so this message was past back to me. 322 00:17:33,407 --> 00:17:35,087 Speaker 1: I think she got nervous. And back to your point 323 00:17:35,127 --> 00:17:38,007 Speaker 1: about did she know who I was, I think she 324 00:17:38,047 --> 00:17:42,607 Speaker 1: got nervous. And you know, I left that therapist and 325 00:17:42,727 --> 00:17:46,007 Speaker 1: I've not spoken to her. This was many many years ago, now, 326 00:17:46,087 --> 00:17:49,887 Speaker 1: like twenty years ago. The pregnancy did turn out, my 327 00:17:49,887 --> 00:17:54,927 Speaker 1: beautiful daughter's eighteen, and I've gone looking for these people, 328 00:17:55,047 --> 00:17:58,407 Speaker 1: like searched online because I've wondered just what's hacked on here? 329 00:17:58,767 --> 00:18:00,647 Speaker 3: Or is there something that you want to go Do 330 00:18:00,687 --> 00:18:03,927 Speaker 3: you feel you have unfinished business with them in some way? No, like, 331 00:18:04,727 --> 00:18:08,807 Speaker 3: does a part of you want to ask this therapist. 332 00:18:09,247 --> 00:18:09,687 Speaker 2: Some ways? 333 00:18:09,727 --> 00:18:16,047 Speaker 3: Were you almost admitting that what you offer doesn't work 334 00:18:16,247 --> 00:18:18,887 Speaker 3: in a sense, because if she was interesting, yeah, like 335 00:18:18,967 --> 00:18:20,327 Speaker 3: what was the function for her? 336 00:18:20,367 --> 00:18:22,127 Speaker 1: It was more like calling in the big guns, like 337 00:18:22,167 --> 00:18:25,207 Speaker 1: calling in a specialist, like in a medical analogy. 338 00:18:24,807 --> 00:18:26,687 Speaker 3: Which makes you actually feel quite looked after it. 339 00:18:26,687 --> 00:18:31,447 Speaker 1: But it was completely unethical what she did, like completely unethical, 340 00:18:32,047 --> 00:18:34,007 Speaker 1: and part of me does want to go back and 341 00:18:34,047 --> 00:18:36,807 Speaker 1: say to her, Hey, you were an amazing therapist. You 342 00:18:36,927 --> 00:18:39,327 Speaker 1: helped me through one of the darkest times of my life. 343 00:18:39,807 --> 00:18:42,687 Speaker 1: My marriage had ended. I was deep in grief over 344 00:18:42,727 --> 00:18:46,167 Speaker 1: the loss of this baby. You helped me and my 345 00:18:46,247 --> 00:18:50,247 Speaker 1: husband find our way back to each other. Really, but 346 00:18:51,607 --> 00:18:56,847 Speaker 1: this thing that you did was incredibly unethical. But I 347 00:18:56,887 --> 00:18:59,047 Speaker 1: suspect she's still trapped in it. 348 00:18:59,367 --> 00:19:17,527 Speaker 3: I you know, it's such a tender and I think 349 00:19:17,607 --> 00:19:22,207 Speaker 3: maybe lifelong part of the vulnerability that we've heard when 350 00:19:22,287 --> 00:19:25,727 Speaker 3: We've had these conversations with other women who have been 351 00:19:25,767 --> 00:19:29,207 Speaker 3: through similar experiences where you come out the other side 352 00:19:29,247 --> 00:19:32,727 Speaker 3: of it and you realize you've been harmed, You realize 353 00:19:33,007 --> 00:19:35,127 Speaker 3: you can put language to what that was. You can 354 00:19:35,167 --> 00:19:36,927 Speaker 3: call it a culture, you can call it a high 355 00:19:36,927 --> 00:19:38,367 Speaker 3: demand organization, or what have you. 356 00:19:39,127 --> 00:19:42,927 Speaker 2: And yet there were gifts or there were. 357 00:19:43,047 --> 00:19:46,607 Speaker 3: Benefits that you come out the other side of it 358 00:19:46,767 --> 00:19:49,687 Speaker 3: changed by that experience, and not all of those changes 359 00:19:49,927 --> 00:19:52,807 Speaker 3: were negative. If they were all negative, they never would 360 00:19:52,807 --> 00:19:54,767 Speaker 3: have roped you in to begin with. It's like that saying, 361 00:19:54,767 --> 00:19:56,287 Speaker 3: you don't join a cult, you join a good thing. 362 00:19:57,327 --> 00:19:59,207 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't feel when I look back at 363 00:19:59,247 --> 00:20:01,847 Speaker 1: it now, I feel embarrassed. 364 00:20:02,487 --> 00:20:04,407 Speaker 2: Why because it's like. 365 00:20:06,447 --> 00:20:09,607 Speaker 1: It's embarrassing in the same way that I look back, 366 00:20:10,087 --> 00:20:12,567 Speaker 1: not with embarrassment, but when I was in an emotionally 367 00:20:12,567 --> 00:20:16,247 Speaker 1: abusive relationship in my very early twenties, I look back 368 00:20:16,247 --> 00:20:19,247 Speaker 1: and I go, who was that person who tolerated that? 369 00:20:19,447 --> 00:20:22,287 Speaker 1: And who had the blinkers on? How did I lose 370 00:20:22,327 --> 00:20:24,727 Speaker 1: myself so much? I have a lot of compassion for 371 00:20:24,767 --> 00:20:26,487 Speaker 1: who I was when I was part of this cult, 372 00:20:26,527 --> 00:20:29,567 Speaker 1: because I was so vulnerable and I was so desperate 373 00:20:29,607 --> 00:20:32,487 Speaker 1: and I would have stood on one leg in a 374 00:20:32,887 --> 00:20:37,807 Speaker 1: blizzard and you know, recited sandscrit while drinking a cup 375 00:20:37,847 --> 00:20:42,327 Speaker 1: of gravy upside down if it would have let me 376 00:20:42,767 --> 00:20:46,287 Speaker 1: deliver a healthy baby, like, I would have done fucking anything. 377 00:20:46,927 --> 00:20:50,927 Speaker 1: And so I have compassion. But when you see that 378 00:20:50,967 --> 00:20:53,207 Speaker 1: you've been scammed, and you know you and I we've 379 00:20:53,207 --> 00:20:58,527 Speaker 1: interviewed people on this show who've been scammed, and it's 380 00:20:58,647 --> 00:21:01,967 Speaker 1: kind of like you ignore those little voices in your head, 381 00:21:02,327 --> 00:21:07,447 Speaker 1: and those little voices, your intuition is the sum total 382 00:21:07,447 --> 00:21:11,327 Speaker 1: of every experience you've had in your life, your innate wisdom, 383 00:21:11,767 --> 00:21:13,847 Speaker 1: and I, yeah, I think when you ignore that, it's 384 00:21:14,247 --> 00:21:15,247 Speaker 1: it's at your peril. 385 00:21:15,527 --> 00:21:20,847 Speaker 3: So embarrassment is the is the ignoring of that inner 386 00:21:20,887 --> 00:21:24,167 Speaker 3: guidance system that was hoisting those red flags and you 387 00:21:24,167 --> 00:21:24,727 Speaker 3: were going. 388 00:21:25,007 --> 00:21:27,207 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like when you say it out loud, you just go, 389 00:21:28,007 --> 00:21:31,047 Speaker 1: oh my god, like how but. 390 00:21:31,047 --> 00:21:34,367 Speaker 3: I want to And this isn't to make you feel better, 391 00:21:34,407 --> 00:21:35,927 Speaker 3: although I hope it does because I can. 392 00:21:35,847 --> 00:21:37,127 Speaker 1: See that you always do it. 393 00:21:37,767 --> 00:21:42,327 Speaker 3: You know, all of the things you described that were 394 00:21:42,647 --> 00:21:49,047 Speaker 3: your suite of vulnerabilities, yeah, combined with your work at 395 00:21:49,087 --> 00:21:51,287 Speaker 3: that time, and I know I keep coming back to that. 396 00:21:51,327 --> 00:21:53,567 Speaker 3: But the reason I do is that we often see 397 00:21:54,287 --> 00:21:59,047 Speaker 3: that the people who fall for scams, who find themselves 398 00:21:59,047 --> 00:22:05,167 Speaker 3: in cults, they are often highly professional, educated, accomplished, successful people. 399 00:22:05,207 --> 00:22:08,647 Speaker 3: And sometimes I wonder if this is a kind of 400 00:22:08,687 --> 00:22:13,807 Speaker 3: decision for and there's this part of you. There's a 401 00:22:14,047 --> 00:22:16,447 Speaker 3: trailer out now for a very I'm gonna say it, 402 00:22:16,527 --> 00:22:20,407 Speaker 3: don't fire me Saucy Nicole Kidman series where I think 403 00:22:20,447 --> 00:22:22,607 Speaker 3: she plays this like baby girl, baby girl. 404 00:22:22,767 --> 00:22:26,807 Speaker 1: Right, being a CEO means being a collaborator and a nurture. 405 00:22:27,367 --> 00:22:30,127 Speaker 1: Don't you have to be a woman. Everyone is just 406 00:22:30,167 --> 00:22:32,167 Speaker 1: waiting for me to buckle under the pressure. Is now 407 00:22:32,167 --> 00:22:34,287 Speaker 1: a guitar to introduce the interest? 408 00:22:34,527 --> 00:22:37,367 Speaker 2: Yeah? 409 00:22:37,607 --> 00:22:40,647 Speaker 1: Hey, how'd you get that dog to calm down? I 410 00:22:40,687 --> 00:22:41,647 Speaker 1: gave it a cookie? 411 00:22:41,887 --> 00:22:45,607 Speaker 2: You always have cookies on you? Why do you want one? 412 00:22:46,487 --> 00:22:48,287 Speaker 3: And I don't know if that's going to have cult undertones, 413 00:22:48,367 --> 00:22:51,487 Speaker 3: definitely probably gonna have some bad relationship undertones. But this 414 00:22:51,607 --> 00:22:55,527 Speaker 3: idea of like when you have so many decisions that 415 00:22:55,567 --> 00:23:00,447 Speaker 3: you have to make every single day, having to heal yourself. 416 00:23:01,007 --> 00:23:02,207 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, it's a lot of. 417 00:23:02,127 --> 00:23:04,887 Speaker 3: Work, and it's like if you can outsource that, yeah, 418 00:23:05,007 --> 00:23:07,407 Speaker 3: or give someone else some choices to make for you. 419 00:23:07,687 --> 00:23:09,407 Speaker 2: Yes, that's a track. 420 00:23:09,327 --> 00:23:11,767 Speaker 1: That's actually very true. And I think the other thing 421 00:23:11,847 --> 00:23:15,767 Speaker 1: is that no one thinks that we all have this 422 00:23:15,927 --> 00:23:17,927 Speaker 1: idea of the kind of person who would get taken 423 00:23:17,927 --> 00:23:19,567 Speaker 1: by a scam, the kind of person who would get 424 00:23:19,607 --> 00:23:22,087 Speaker 1: involved in a bad relationship, the kind of person who 425 00:23:22,127 --> 00:23:23,647 Speaker 1: would stay with someone who would cheat on them, the 426 00:23:23,727 --> 00:23:26,127 Speaker 1: kind of person who would stay with someone who physically 427 00:23:26,247 --> 00:23:29,287 Speaker 1: or emotionally or financially abused them, the kind of person 428 00:23:29,287 --> 00:23:31,487 Speaker 1: who would hire a male escort. And what I love 429 00:23:31,567 --> 00:23:36,447 Speaker 1: so much about this show is having those stereotypes smashed 430 00:23:36,527 --> 00:23:41,047 Speaker 1: and smashed and smashed and smashed, because what I've learned 431 00:23:41,287 --> 00:23:44,367 Speaker 1: about that idea of I didn't make this up, but 432 00:23:44,407 --> 00:23:48,647 Speaker 1: it so informs the philosophy this show is that out 433 00:23:48,647 --> 00:23:50,447 Speaker 1: there there's someone with the wound in the shape of 434 00:23:50,487 --> 00:23:54,047 Speaker 1: your words. And that's about when we share our stories, 435 00:23:54,807 --> 00:23:58,567 Speaker 1: someone else goes, oh me too, and maybe it helps 436 00:23:58,567 --> 00:24:00,887 Speaker 1: them recognize something like when I was in an emotionally 437 00:24:00,887 --> 00:24:04,487 Speaker 1: abusive relationship, I wish I'd have been able to read 438 00:24:04,927 --> 00:24:08,887 Speaker 1: someone else's story, and reading about someone who had ADHD 439 00:24:09,727 --> 00:24:11,487 Speaker 1: is what led me to be diagnosed. And all of 440 00:24:11,527 --> 00:24:14,247 Speaker 1: these things and when we interviewed the woman who was scammed, 441 00:24:14,807 --> 00:24:18,607 Speaker 1: Charlotte Cowell's Charlotte Cowells, who was amazing and so brave 442 00:24:18,687 --> 00:24:20,727 Speaker 1: to say that because she was a financial writer and 443 00:24:20,727 --> 00:24:24,127 Speaker 1: how mortifying for her to have had that happened to her. 444 00:24:24,767 --> 00:24:27,127 Speaker 1: But one of the things that these people rely on 445 00:24:27,287 --> 00:24:29,527 Speaker 1: is that it's not how you think it's going to be, 446 00:24:30,407 --> 00:24:35,847 Speaker 1: and anyone nothing protects you. No, not education, not loved ones, 447 00:24:35,967 --> 00:24:41,207 Speaker 1: not a fancy university degree. What protects you is hearing 448 00:24:41,247 --> 00:24:41,967 Speaker 1: other stories. 449 00:24:42,207 --> 00:24:45,767 Speaker 3: And it's the only Chote said that I think that 450 00:24:45,967 --> 00:24:48,247 Speaker 3: you know that there were people who were mid scam, 451 00:24:48,567 --> 00:24:50,847 Speaker 3: you know they were signing the check so to speak, 452 00:24:51,487 --> 00:24:54,247 Speaker 3: and heard her story or read her story, and that. 453 00:24:54,167 --> 00:24:56,367 Speaker 1: We've had people contact us since that episode came out 454 00:24:56,407 --> 00:24:59,287 Speaker 1: saying I got a call from Amazon and it wasn't Amazon, 455 00:24:59,487 --> 00:25:01,407 Speaker 1: it was this scam and had I not listened to 456 00:25:01,447 --> 00:25:04,927 Speaker 1: your episode, it might have happened to me. And that's 457 00:25:04,927 --> 00:25:08,847 Speaker 1: why I think it's just so important for women to 458 00:25:08,887 --> 00:25:10,007 Speaker 1: share well for everyone. 459 00:25:10,207 --> 00:25:14,367 Speaker 3: So it's a nice point. Do you feel in this 460 00:25:14,487 --> 00:25:18,767 Speaker 3: moment ever so slightly less ashamed embarrassed even than he 461 00:25:18,767 --> 00:25:21,807 Speaker 3: did twenty minutes ago? Is there something cathartic even in 462 00:25:21,847 --> 00:25:23,687 Speaker 3: the telling, yes, because I'm. 463 00:25:23,527 --> 00:25:27,687 Speaker 1: Actually never apart from like my husband, who saw it 464 00:25:27,727 --> 00:25:29,767 Speaker 1: happen at the time and we sort of haven't ever 465 00:25:29,847 --> 00:25:32,927 Speaker 1: really talked about it, he was actually we have a bit, 466 00:25:32,967 --> 00:25:34,767 Speaker 1: and he was just like, oh, from the second I 467 00:25:34,847 --> 00:25:36,367 Speaker 1: knew that this was just such crap. 468 00:25:36,247 --> 00:25:37,527 Speaker 3: And what he just knew he had to let you 469 00:25:37,607 --> 00:25:38,807 Speaker 3: run your kind of thing. 470 00:25:38,927 --> 00:25:40,727 Speaker 1: He didn't know how to help me, and if this 471 00:25:40,807 --> 00:25:46,007 Speaker 1: seemed to be helping me, he luckily I got myself 472 00:25:46,047 --> 00:25:48,207 Speaker 1: out of it and he didn't have to intervene. And 473 00:25:48,247 --> 00:25:49,647 Speaker 1: I think if I'd have said, hey, I want to 474 00:25:49,647 --> 00:25:51,327 Speaker 1: transfer ten thousand dollars. 475 00:25:51,447 --> 00:25:53,767 Speaker 2: He certainly wouldn't have been a conversation gone that far. 476 00:25:53,887 --> 00:25:57,447 Speaker 1: But while it wasn't impacting on our lives to a 477 00:25:57,487 --> 00:26:01,087 Speaker 1: really detrimental extent, he was able to just let me 478 00:26:01,127 --> 00:26:03,047 Speaker 1: go on this journey in the hope that it might 479 00:26:03,127 --> 00:26:06,807 Speaker 1: make me feel better. But I've never told anyone. I've 480 00:26:06,847 --> 00:26:10,767 Speaker 1: never told anyone, so telling us then, I've no filters. 481 00:26:11,007 --> 00:26:14,967 Speaker 1: If you have maybe had an experience like this, we'd 482 00:26:15,007 --> 00:26:17,367 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. We'll put a link in 483 00:26:17,407 --> 00:26:21,327 Speaker 1: our show notes to our email and sending love to 484 00:26:21,367 --> 00:26:25,967 Speaker 1: everybody out there who's going through anything tricky. Life isn't easy, 485 00:26:26,167 --> 00:26:28,567 Speaker 1: but you know it's easier when we do it together. 486 00:26:28,807 --> 00:26:31,727 Speaker 3: It is. I've one more question for you, though, When 487 00:26:31,847 --> 00:26:33,807 Speaker 3: was the first time you were able to. 488 00:26:33,847 --> 00:26:34,527 Speaker 2: Laugh at it? 489 00:26:35,327 --> 00:26:38,887 Speaker 1: Well, now I'm laughing at it, I think, I kind 490 00:26:38,887 --> 00:26:42,087 Speaker 1: of I think now, I think you can't when you're 491 00:26:42,127 --> 00:26:45,647 Speaker 1: ashamed of something or embarrassed. It's easier to laugh when 492 00:26:45,647 --> 00:26:49,967 Speaker 1: you're embarrassed. Shame does not allow laughter. And I think 493 00:26:50,007 --> 00:26:52,047 Speaker 1: you need a lot of perspective and a lot of 494 00:26:52,127 --> 00:26:56,727 Speaker 1: years to laugh at something. And I think the reason 495 00:26:56,767 --> 00:26:59,007 Speaker 1: I can laugh about it now is because I did 496 00:26:59,047 --> 00:27:01,847 Speaker 1: go on to have a healthy baby. And I think 497 00:27:01,887 --> 00:27:07,047 Speaker 1: perhaps if I hadn't, I might have felt very differently 498 00:27:07,087 --> 00:27:10,927 Speaker 1: about this experience. I think I might have. I don't. 499 00:27:10,967 --> 00:27:13,287 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine how I would have processed this 500 00:27:13,367 --> 00:27:15,167 Speaker 1: experience or what I would have filed it under. 501 00:27:15,287 --> 00:27:17,887 Speaker 3: You know, or you might have stayed, you might have 502 00:27:17,927 --> 00:27:20,647 Speaker 3: gone back. It would have maybe been a way that 503 00:27:20,687 --> 00:27:23,527 Speaker 3: they proved something to you about their power when things 504 00:27:23,527 --> 00:27:24,447 Speaker 3: get very dangerous. 505 00:27:24,487 --> 00:27:28,567 Speaker 1: Correct. And so I was so relieved when, for so 506 00:27:28,607 --> 00:27:31,367 Speaker 1: many reasons, when she was born, but that i'd cut 507 00:27:31,407 --> 00:27:34,607 Speaker 1: it off before, because then maybe I would have thought 508 00:27:34,607 --> 00:27:37,527 Speaker 1: that I have to stay to keep her safe or 509 00:27:37,767 --> 00:27:39,847 Speaker 1: for my next pregnancy. And yes, I went on to 510 00:27:39,847 --> 00:27:43,647 Speaker 1: have another baby after that. So the dim mystifying takes time, 511 00:27:44,247 --> 00:27:48,607 Speaker 1: and I think it's only through as we heard with Joy, 512 00:27:49,127 --> 00:27:52,847 Speaker 1: it's only through time passing and you're seeing that the 513 00:27:52,927 --> 00:27:56,367 Speaker 1: things that they made you scared about did not come 514 00:27:56,367 --> 00:27:57,287 Speaker 1: to pass. 515 00:27:57,647 --> 00:28:00,727 Speaker 3: You have to almost accrue data. Yes, you have to 516 00:28:00,807 --> 00:28:06,247 Speaker 3: keep testing a new theory. Yes, and then eventually it does. 517 00:28:06,247 --> 00:28:14,727 Speaker 2: Outweez, well, there you go. 518 00:28:14,807 --> 00:28:18,527 Speaker 1: That wasn't so hard, was it. In fact, it did 519 00:28:18,567 --> 00:28:21,207 Speaker 1: remind me listening to that back again. Why so many 520 00:28:21,327 --> 00:28:23,847 Speaker 1: other people do share their stories with me on no filter, 521 00:28:24,327 --> 00:28:29,447 Speaker 1: Because telling our stories is cathartic, particularly if it's about 522 00:28:29,487 --> 00:28:33,847 Speaker 1: something that you feel some shame or embarrassment over. They 523 00:28:33,887 --> 00:28:38,767 Speaker 1: say that the best disinfectant is sunlight, and you know, 524 00:28:39,487 --> 00:28:42,207 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit more forgiving of myself now I 525 00:28:42,287 --> 00:28:45,727 Speaker 1: understand exactly how it happened, and I'm not ashamed. 526 00:28:45,807 --> 00:28:46,767 Speaker 2: It's just kind of this. 527 00:28:46,927 --> 00:28:49,967 Speaker 1: I sort of have filed it under this weird thing 528 00:28:50,087 --> 00:28:53,807 Speaker 1: that happened to me this one time. Anyway, So if 529 00:28:53,807 --> 00:28:55,607 Speaker 1: you want to listen to the story that nine I 530 00:28:55,647 --> 00:28:58,767 Speaker 1: talked about earlier about Charlotte Cow's who fell for a 531 00:28:58,807 --> 00:29:04,127 Speaker 1: financial scam and ended up giving I think it was 532 00:29:04,167 --> 00:29:07,967 Speaker 1: like fifty five thousand dollars to a stranger. She pushed 533 00:29:08,007 --> 00:29:11,127 Speaker 1: through the enormous shape that she felt to share her 534 00:29:11,167 --> 00:29:14,047 Speaker 1: story so that others might not have to go through 535 00:29:14,127 --> 00:29:16,207 Speaker 1: what she went through. And we'll put a link to 536 00:29:16,247 --> 00:29:18,487 Speaker 1: that in the show notes, and we will also link 537 00:29:18,727 --> 00:29:22,047 Speaker 1: to some more stories from incredible women who actually did 538 00:29:22,127 --> 00:29:26,527 Speaker 1: get stuck for years in abusive, high control cults, usually 539 00:29:26,527 --> 00:29:30,047 Speaker 1: religious cults, and they eventually made it out the other side, 540 00:29:30,047 --> 00:29:33,967 Speaker 1: which just takes so much courage and strength, women like 541 00:29:34,047 --> 00:29:37,887 Speaker 1: Tea Leving's and Darssy Erleck. The executive producer of No 542 00:29:38,007 --> 00:29:41,407 Speaker 1: Filter is Niama Brown. You've probably guessed that she's a 543 00:29:41,407 --> 00:29:45,247 Speaker 1: bit obsessed with stories about cults and charismatic leaders. I 544 00:29:45,287 --> 00:29:48,967 Speaker 1: wonder why maybe she will be one one day. No, 545 00:29:49,087 --> 00:29:51,927 Speaker 1: she's too nice for that. Audio production and sound design 546 00:29:52,047 --> 00:29:55,007 Speaker 1: is by Tom Lyon, and I mentioned on a previous 547 00:29:55,047 --> 00:29:57,447 Speaker 1: episode he grew up with neighbors who were in a cult, 548 00:29:57,727 --> 00:29:59,967 Speaker 1: and since I said that, one of them has reached 549 00:30:00,007 --> 00:30:02,087 Speaker 1: out and they're going to catch up, there's a happy 550 00:30:02,167 --> 00:30:09,247 Speaker 1: ending for you. 551 00:30:09,327 --> 00:30:13,447 Speaker 2: Yeah,