1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,302 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges the 2 00:00:16,342 --> 00:00:20,182 Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was recorded 3 00:00:20,182 --> 00:00:29,902 Speaker 1: on It's a blustery winter's night in Canton, Massachusetts in 4 00:00:30,022 --> 00:00:33,462 Speaker 1: January twenty twenty two and Karen Reid and John O'Keeffe 5 00:00:33,462 --> 00:00:37,542 Speaker 1: are out with friends. They're drinking, bar hopping and enjoying 6 00:00:37,542 --> 00:00:40,222 Speaker 1: a night on the town. John is a local cop 7 00:00:40,542 --> 00:00:42,142 Speaker 1: and the plan is to move the party to one 8 00:00:42,182 --> 00:00:46,462 Speaker 1: of his colleagues homes nearby. After midnight, Karen drops John 9 00:00:46,502 --> 00:00:49,302 Speaker 1: at the address and heads back to his house. She 10 00:00:49,382 --> 00:00:52,382 Speaker 1: starts panicking when he still isn't home in the early 11 00:00:52,422 --> 00:00:56,582 Speaker 1: hours of the morning. Well that's her side of the 12 00:00:56,622 --> 00:01:01,182 Speaker 1: story anyway. John's body is found outside the location of 13 00:01:01,182 --> 00:01:05,022 Speaker 1: the house party at six am the next morning. Pieces 14 00:01:05,022 --> 00:01:08,822 Speaker 1: from a broken tail light are found nearby. As Karen 15 00:01:08,862 --> 00:01:11,822 Speaker 1: whales at the site of her dead boyfriend, she says 16 00:01:11,862 --> 00:01:15,542 Speaker 1: something that remains a point of contention. Either I hit him, 17 00:01:15,582 --> 00:01:18,742 Speaker 1: I hit him? Or did I hit him? Did I 18 00:01:18,822 --> 00:01:23,582 Speaker 1: hit him? The slight change of inference means everything. It 19 00:01:23,622 --> 00:01:26,782 Speaker 1: could mean the difference between freedom and a jail cell 20 00:01:26,902 --> 00:01:31,862 Speaker 1: for Karen. But this story gets even murkier because as 21 00:01:31,902 --> 00:01:34,982 Speaker 1: her defense picks up the case, they start to unravel 22 00:01:35,022 --> 00:01:39,222 Speaker 1: another potential series of events, one that involves a cover up, 23 00:01:39,742 --> 00:01:44,542 Speaker 1: contamination by law enforcement, and the framing of Karen for murder. 24 00:01:55,902 --> 00:01:59,182 Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Bass and this is True Crime Conversations a 25 00:01:59,302 --> 00:02:02,622 Speaker 1: Muma me a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes 26 00:02:03,142 --> 00:02:05,662 Speaker 1: by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 27 00:02:06,542 --> 00:02:10,062 Speaker 1: Before her arrest, Karen Read was a financial analyst and professor. 28 00:02:10,662 --> 00:02:13,462 Speaker 1: She'd been dating John O'Keeffe, a Boston police officer, for 29 00:02:13,542 --> 00:02:17,462 Speaker 1: two years. Photos of the pair show an attractive, smiling 30 00:02:17,542 --> 00:02:20,902 Speaker 1: couple in their mid forties, but despite the pretty pictures, 31 00:02:20,942 --> 00:02:25,502 Speaker 1: their relationship wasn't all rosy. They'd been having some disagreements 32 00:02:25,542 --> 00:02:28,302 Speaker 1: in the lead up to that January twenty twenty two evening. 33 00:02:29,262 --> 00:02:32,502 Speaker 1: Ever since John's death, the town where he died has 34 00:02:32,542 --> 00:02:36,902 Speaker 1: been divided, but it since snowbled into an international debate 35 00:02:37,342 --> 00:02:40,382 Speaker 1: fueled by the free Karen movement that's grown legs online. 36 00:02:41,102 --> 00:02:45,022 Speaker 1: There's two very distinct camps. Was John killed by those 37 00:02:45,142 --> 00:02:49,022 Speaker 1: inside the house, a house full of police and law enforcement, 38 00:02:49,422 --> 00:02:52,702 Speaker 1: who then proceeded to cover up his murder, or did 39 00:02:52,702 --> 00:02:56,062 Speaker 1: his girlfriend Karen kill him before he even made it 40 00:02:56,102 --> 00:02:59,702 Speaker 1: through the front door. To help us unpack those theories 41 00:02:59,742 --> 00:03:03,262 Speaker 1: and everything that came before it, where joined by Jessica Lalfer, 42 00:03:03,582 --> 00:03:07,182 Speaker 1: producer of Karen, an in depth podcast series by the 43 00:03:07,262 --> 00:03:19,662 Speaker 1: Law and Crime Network. Jessica joins us now just tell 44 00:03:19,742 --> 00:03:22,542 Speaker 1: us about Karen and Jones love story. 45 00:03:23,462 --> 00:03:26,702 Speaker 2: So, Karen and John actually first met when they were 46 00:03:26,702 --> 00:03:31,182 Speaker 2: in their twenties, shortly after college. They dated for a 47 00:03:31,222 --> 00:03:34,222 Speaker 2: little while, but their careers took them on different paths. 48 00:03:34,742 --> 00:03:40,182 Speaker 2: Karen became an adjunct professor at Bentley University in Massachusetts, 49 00:03:40,782 --> 00:03:44,462 Speaker 2: and John O'Keefe became a cop. He was a Boston 50 00:03:44,502 --> 00:03:48,542 Speaker 2: Police officer, and in twenty twenty or you know, during 51 00:03:48,582 --> 00:03:52,502 Speaker 2: the COVID era, they came across each other again on 52 00:03:52,542 --> 00:03:55,782 Speaker 2: Facebook and he messaged her and was like, you know, 53 00:03:55,942 --> 00:04:00,262 Speaker 2: longtime no see, And she was looking at his profile 54 00:04:00,342 --> 00:04:03,062 Speaker 2: and was like, oh, I noticed you have these kids 55 00:04:03,102 --> 00:04:05,302 Speaker 2: with you now, like, what's going on with that? And 56 00:04:05,462 --> 00:04:08,862 Speaker 2: it turns out that he has taken custody of his 57 00:04:08,982 --> 00:04:13,222 Speaker 2: niece and his nephew after the really really sad story 58 00:04:13,302 --> 00:04:16,542 Speaker 2: that not only did his brother in law die, but 59 00:04:16,702 --> 00:04:20,382 Speaker 2: also his sister died, and so that left the kids 60 00:04:20,422 --> 00:04:23,422 Speaker 2: without any parents, and so John swooped in and took 61 00:04:23,462 --> 00:04:26,782 Speaker 2: them under his wing. And so he ended up taking 62 00:04:26,822 --> 00:04:30,222 Speaker 2: a desk job at the Boston Police Department to have 63 00:04:30,262 --> 00:04:33,942 Speaker 2: a safer job so he could take care of these kids. 64 00:04:34,102 --> 00:04:37,142 Speaker 2: And from what I had seen on their TikTok, they 65 00:04:37,262 --> 00:04:38,982 Speaker 2: just had like a ton of fun together. You can 66 00:04:39,022 --> 00:04:42,702 Speaker 2: tell he was the fun uncle and really loved them, 67 00:04:42,982 --> 00:04:45,302 Speaker 2: and it really just seemed like a really fun house 68 00:04:45,302 --> 00:04:48,742 Speaker 2: to live in. But Karen and John they rekindled and 69 00:04:49,622 --> 00:04:52,702 Speaker 2: they dated for two years up until the night that 70 00:04:52,822 --> 00:04:55,222 Speaker 2: this tragic incident happened. 71 00:04:56,062 --> 00:04:59,582 Speaker 1: That's a lot of different dynamics to navigate as someone 72 00:04:59,662 --> 00:05:04,142 Speaker 1: coming into a new relationship. You've got this once single guy, 73 00:05:04,542 --> 00:05:07,422 Speaker 1: no kids, who suddenly has two children to look after. 74 00:05:07,462 --> 00:05:10,902 Speaker 1: He's also grieving. How did they navigate all of that 75 00:05:11,222 --> 00:05:14,462 Speaker 1: her basically adopting two step kids in this relationship. 76 00:05:15,262 --> 00:05:18,902 Speaker 2: Yeah, from all accounts we've heard, Karen really really cared 77 00:05:18,982 --> 00:05:23,422 Speaker 2: about the children, and she was often spending the night 78 00:05:23,542 --> 00:05:26,302 Speaker 2: at John's house and helping to raise them, to take 79 00:05:26,342 --> 00:05:28,302 Speaker 2: care of them. She was very invested in their futures. 80 00:05:28,342 --> 00:05:31,302 Speaker 2: But Karen and John were only dating, and so there 81 00:05:31,302 --> 00:05:33,822 Speaker 2: were times where she felt like she was being taken 82 00:05:33,902 --> 00:05:37,862 Speaker 2: advantage of when he would go out drinking and she 83 00:05:37,902 --> 00:05:39,662 Speaker 2: couldn't get a hold of him and she would be 84 00:05:39,702 --> 00:05:41,342 Speaker 2: at the house with the kids. You know, She's like, 85 00:05:41,342 --> 00:05:42,942 Speaker 2: I have to go back to my house. I have 86 00:05:42,982 --> 00:05:45,742 Speaker 2: a job to do, and you're nowhere to be found. 87 00:05:45,942 --> 00:05:49,222 Speaker 2: And so there was a lot of back and forth, 88 00:05:49,342 --> 00:05:51,862 Speaker 2: it seems, between the two of them over the kids, 89 00:05:51,862 --> 00:05:55,022 Speaker 2: and especially from some testimony we heard during the trial 90 00:05:55,462 --> 00:05:58,782 Speaker 2: about what she was feeding the kids, it's actually kind 91 00:05:58,822 --> 00:06:02,422 Speaker 2: of ironic that it's all over like Dunkin Donuts, which 92 00:06:02,502 --> 00:06:05,702 Speaker 2: is very Massachusetts, very Boston of this case. 93 00:06:06,902 --> 00:06:09,782 Speaker 1: So take me through that he was upset that she 94 00:06:09,862 --> 00:06:10,942 Speaker 1: was fading them donuts. 95 00:06:11,942 --> 00:06:15,222 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there was just one morning where instead of 96 00:06:15,422 --> 00:06:17,782 Speaker 2: making them a breakfast, she brought them Dunkin Donuts and 97 00:06:17,862 --> 00:06:21,022 Speaker 2: John was unhappy about the kids eating donuts and wanting 98 00:06:21,022 --> 00:06:23,142 Speaker 2: them to eat something healthier, and they had a big 99 00:06:23,222 --> 00:06:26,302 Speaker 2: argument about it. But I'll say this, just judging from 100 00:06:26,422 --> 00:06:30,782 Speaker 2: everything we've learned about Karen and John over the course 101 00:06:31,142 --> 00:06:33,502 Speaker 2: of the past couple of years since instance and it happened, 102 00:06:34,262 --> 00:06:36,462 Speaker 2: it seems like it's pretty easy to get them to 103 00:06:36,462 --> 00:06:38,502 Speaker 2: fly off the handle. You know, she seems like she 104 00:06:38,542 --> 00:06:41,302 Speaker 2: has quite a temper on her And I'm not sure 105 00:06:41,302 --> 00:06:44,502 Speaker 2: about John. I haven't heard that about him. But it 106 00:06:44,542 --> 00:06:47,822 Speaker 2: takes two to start a foot, yeah. 107 00:06:48,102 --> 00:06:51,262 Speaker 1: Quick to fire, by the sounds. So what was the 108 00:06:51,302 --> 00:06:54,702 Speaker 1: state of their relationship looking like in twenty twenty two. 109 00:06:54,822 --> 00:06:55,982 Speaker 1: Early twenty twenty. 110 00:06:55,702 --> 00:07:00,062 Speaker 2: Two, people in the group were saying that the relationship 111 00:07:00,102 --> 00:07:04,142 Speaker 2: had run its course. The niece actually had overheard John 112 00:07:04,862 --> 00:07:07,942 Speaker 2: say to Karen that this isn't healthy. And this was 113 00:07:07,982 --> 00:07:11,702 Speaker 2: one week before his death, and so there's a lot 114 00:07:11,742 --> 00:07:15,622 Speaker 2: of like moving parts around this time. They're dating, she's 115 00:07:15,702 --> 00:07:18,542 Speaker 2: practically living with him, she's taking care of his children. 116 00:07:19,102 --> 00:07:21,022 Speaker 2: But you know, they still love each other and so 117 00:07:21,142 --> 00:07:23,382 Speaker 2: it seems like it's very hard for them to figure 118 00:07:23,382 --> 00:07:26,982 Speaker 2: out like how to make this work. And then leading 119 00:07:27,062 --> 00:07:29,062 Speaker 2: up to the night of the twenty eighth, you can 120 00:07:29,102 --> 00:07:32,782 Speaker 2: see on surveillance footage John and Karen and their group 121 00:07:32,822 --> 00:07:35,982 Speaker 2: of friends. They're at this bar called the Waterfall Bard Girl, 122 00:07:36,942 --> 00:07:39,502 Speaker 2: and they look like they're having a great time. Everybody 123 00:07:39,542 --> 00:07:42,702 Speaker 2: looks like they're getting along. Everybody's laughing, She's like holding 124 00:07:42,742 --> 00:07:46,662 Speaker 2: on to him. They're very affectionate, and it's very hard 125 00:07:46,662 --> 00:07:48,622 Speaker 2: to believe everything that happens after this. 126 00:07:49,662 --> 00:07:51,862 Speaker 1: They go to an after potty, which is what happens 127 00:07:51,862 --> 00:07:54,942 Speaker 1: after the night out drinking. Before we get to what happened, 128 00:07:55,022 --> 00:07:58,182 Speaker 1: can you give us some context about who was at 129 00:07:58,182 --> 00:08:00,622 Speaker 1: that after potty, because it was a house that was 130 00:08:00,622 --> 00:08:03,542 Speaker 1: owned by a man called Brian Albert, and he's quite 131 00:08:03,582 --> 00:08:04,702 Speaker 1: significant in this story. 132 00:08:05,302 --> 00:08:08,862 Speaker 2: He is, so Brian Albert is also a Boston police officer, 133 00:08:08,982 --> 00:08:12,502 Speaker 2: so he knew John O'Keeffe. He said he was a 134 00:08:12,502 --> 00:08:15,342 Speaker 2: friend of his, but they were probably just buddies. They're 135 00:08:15,342 --> 00:08:18,702 Speaker 2: also cops. They live near each other, and also John 136 00:08:18,742 --> 00:08:22,262 Speaker 2: O'Keeffe lives next door to Colin Albert, which is the 137 00:08:22,382 --> 00:08:26,342 Speaker 2: nephew of Brian Albert. So thirty four Fairview Road is 138 00:08:26,342 --> 00:08:30,022 Speaker 2: where all of this ends up taking place. In Campton, Massachusetts, 139 00:08:30,582 --> 00:08:34,102 Speaker 2: a noeters coming in, which is a huge snowstorm, the 140 00:08:34,262 --> 00:08:36,502 Speaker 2: likes of which the area had not seen in years, 141 00:08:36,702 --> 00:08:40,102 Speaker 2: and they were projected to get like feet and feet 142 00:08:40,142 --> 00:08:42,822 Speaker 2: of snow, and so they were all just trying to 143 00:08:42,862 --> 00:08:45,382 Speaker 2: get one last hurrahan before they were going to be 144 00:08:45,542 --> 00:08:50,622 Speaker 2: holed in by this snow. And at the house, they're 145 00:08:50,662 --> 00:08:55,742 Speaker 2: celebrating Brian Junior's birthday, party, So Brian Junior is there 146 00:08:56,022 --> 00:08:59,102 Speaker 2: at the house with a bunch of his friends, while 147 00:08:59,182 --> 00:09:02,102 Speaker 2: the parents in John O'Keeffe and Karen Reider at the bar. 148 00:09:02,542 --> 00:09:06,502 Speaker 2: And so around twelve fifteen, everyone starts trickling from the 149 00:09:06,542 --> 00:09:09,302 Speaker 2: bar to the Albert home and this is the home 150 00:09:09,382 --> 00:09:14,062 Speaker 2: of Brian. And at the home with them at this 151 00:09:14,262 --> 00:09:18,862 Speaker 2: point is Jennifer McCabe. So one other person that's at 152 00:09:18,862 --> 00:09:21,142 Speaker 2: this party is the person that Karen Reid has been 153 00:09:22,062 --> 00:09:25,302 Speaker 2: exchanging flirtatious text with and he was also at the bar. 154 00:09:25,462 --> 00:09:29,022 Speaker 2: His name is Brian Higgins. There are two Brian's in 155 00:09:29,062 --> 00:09:34,422 Speaker 2: this story. So Brian Higgins is not a police officer, 156 00:09:34,502 --> 00:09:37,142 Speaker 2: but he's in law enforcement and he happens to have 157 00:09:37,182 --> 00:09:41,302 Speaker 2: an office in the Canton Police Department, where Kevin Albert 158 00:09:41,422 --> 00:09:45,462 Speaker 2: is a detective. Kevin is Brian's brother, and they have 159 00:09:45,502 --> 00:09:51,422 Speaker 2: another brother named Chris, who is the Canton Selectman. So 160 00:09:51,662 --> 00:09:54,542 Speaker 2: this is clearly a very well connected family in this 161 00:09:54,582 --> 00:10:00,302 Speaker 2: little town. So it's easy to see where this conspiracy 162 00:10:00,342 --> 00:10:05,542 Speaker 2: theory took fire because there are so many tentacles to 163 00:10:05,622 --> 00:10:09,182 Speaker 2: this family and so many people involved. But at the 164 00:10:09,182 --> 00:10:13,862 Speaker 2: core of it, that night, there were about ten adults 165 00:10:14,382 --> 00:10:16,942 Speaker 2: and maybe a few of the kids left from the 166 00:10:16,982 --> 00:10:20,102 Speaker 2: birthday celebration around twelve thirty at night. 167 00:10:21,062 --> 00:10:24,502 Speaker 1: Okay, so what does Karen say happened that evening? 168 00:10:25,542 --> 00:10:29,382 Speaker 2: So Karen Reid has really not said much about this 169 00:10:29,542 --> 00:10:35,222 Speaker 2: case publicly, except she did an interview for Nightline back 170 00:10:35,262 --> 00:10:39,062 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three before the trial took place, and 171 00:10:39,182 --> 00:10:42,502 Speaker 2: I'm actually surprised her lawyers let her do this. But 172 00:10:42,862 --> 00:10:46,902 Speaker 2: she says that she and John were leaving the bar 173 00:10:47,822 --> 00:10:50,462 Speaker 2: and he says, we're going to go to the Alberts 174 00:10:50,462 --> 00:10:54,182 Speaker 2: for the after party. She says, are we invited? I 175 00:10:54,262 --> 00:10:57,662 Speaker 2: want to make sure we're invited, And so she tells 176 00:10:57,782 --> 00:11:01,022 Speaker 2: him when they get there to go inside to make 177 00:11:01,022 --> 00:11:05,902 Speaker 2: sure that it's okay, that they're welcome there. And this 178 00:11:05,942 --> 00:11:08,062 Speaker 2: is where the details get like a little fuzzy, because 179 00:11:08,102 --> 00:11:10,422 Speaker 2: she says she never saw him go in the house, 180 00:11:10,822 --> 00:11:13,422 Speaker 2: but she saw him approach the door. She says she 181 00:11:13,502 --> 00:11:17,262 Speaker 2: looked down at her phone and then drove off, which 182 00:11:17,302 --> 00:11:19,462 Speaker 2: is kind of weird because I thought she was going 183 00:11:19,542 --> 00:11:22,342 Speaker 2: to stay at the party. But there's also some times 184 00:11:22,342 --> 00:11:24,622 Speaker 2: where she said that she waited for a really long 185 00:11:24,662 --> 00:11:28,102 Speaker 2: time for John to come out and give her the 186 00:11:28,102 --> 00:11:30,782 Speaker 2: confirmation and he wasn't answering his phone and he wasn't 187 00:11:30,822 --> 00:11:34,102 Speaker 2: responding to any texts. So perhaps she was there for 188 00:11:34,142 --> 00:11:38,182 Speaker 2: about ten minutes and waited for him, and then she 189 00:11:38,262 --> 00:11:40,782 Speaker 2: took off and went back to his house for the 190 00:11:40,902 --> 00:11:44,262 Speaker 2: night because that's where the kids were and somebody needed 191 00:11:44,262 --> 00:11:47,582 Speaker 2: to be with them overnight. And over the course of 192 00:11:47,622 --> 00:11:53,182 Speaker 2: this whole evening, she's blowing up his phone, she's texting him, 193 00:11:53,222 --> 00:11:57,662 Speaker 2: she calls him fifty times, and she's leaving like these 194 00:11:57,702 --> 00:12:02,502 Speaker 2: profanity laden voicemails. They're kind of funny if it wasn't 195 00:12:02,542 --> 00:12:06,302 Speaker 2: in the middle of this extremely serious situation. So that's 196 00:12:06,382 --> 00:12:09,622 Speaker 2: Karen's story, is that she wakes up around five am 197 00:12:09,662 --> 00:12:12,302 Speaker 2: and she realized John never came into the house. She 198 00:12:12,422 --> 00:12:15,062 Speaker 2: was sleeping on the couch and I believe the niece 199 00:12:15,182 --> 00:12:18,422 Speaker 2: was with her in the living room. So she calls 200 00:12:18,542 --> 00:12:22,382 Speaker 2: Jennifer McCabe, who again is the sister in law of 201 00:12:22,462 --> 00:12:25,382 Speaker 2: Brian Albert, the homeowner, and she says, you know, John 202 00:12:25,422 --> 00:12:27,542 Speaker 2: never came home last night. Where's John? Do you think 203 00:12:27,542 --> 00:12:30,902 Speaker 2: he got hit by a plow? And it's really interesting 204 00:12:31,182 --> 00:12:35,702 Speaker 2: that she's just throwing out all of these weird like 205 00:12:35,742 --> 00:12:37,662 Speaker 2: what if he got hit by a plow, Like, we 206 00:12:37,742 --> 00:12:41,062 Speaker 2: need to go look for him. So she, an Jennifer 207 00:12:41,142 --> 00:12:44,502 Speaker 2: and this woman Carrie Roberts decide to go on this 208 00:12:44,982 --> 00:12:49,982 Speaker 2: journey together to look for John. And while she's on 209 00:12:50,022 --> 00:12:54,582 Speaker 2: the phone with Jennifer McCabe, Jennifer's husband, here's the conversation 210 00:12:55,142 --> 00:12:57,902 Speaker 2: and Karen is saying, I left him at the waterfall. 211 00:12:58,022 --> 00:13:00,182 Speaker 2: I must have left him at the waterfall, and he's like, 212 00:13:00,262 --> 00:13:03,982 Speaker 2: what are you talking about? We saw you outside the house. 213 00:13:04,302 --> 00:13:06,622 Speaker 2: So there are multiple people who say they saw her 214 00:13:06,702 --> 00:13:10,222 Speaker 2: dark suv outside of the house. So we know that 215 00:13:10,302 --> 00:13:14,062 Speaker 2: it's at least true that she pulled up to the 216 00:13:14,102 --> 00:13:18,142 Speaker 2: house and dropped off John. That's true. Nobody's debating that. 217 00:13:19,062 --> 00:13:22,302 Speaker 2: But what happens next is still a mystery because they're 218 00:13:22,382 --> 00:13:26,542 Speaker 2: driving around the two square miles from the bar to 219 00:13:26,662 --> 00:13:30,222 Speaker 2: the two houses, and as soon as they pull up 220 00:13:30,262 --> 00:13:34,062 Speaker 2: in front of the house, the homeowner is Brian Albert, 221 00:13:34,342 --> 00:13:39,422 Speaker 2: Boston police officer. She immediately homes in on this gigantic 222 00:13:39,582 --> 00:13:42,902 Speaker 2: snow mound in between the flagpole and the fire hydrant, 223 00:13:43,182 --> 00:13:45,382 Speaker 2: and she runs and she beelines to it. She's like, 224 00:13:45,422 --> 00:13:48,662 Speaker 2: it's John, It's John, It's John. Nobody else sees what 225 00:13:48,822 --> 00:13:52,462 Speaker 2: she's seeing. Like again, it's snowing very, very hard. There's 226 00:13:52,462 --> 00:13:54,062 Speaker 2: at least two feet of snow on the ground, I 227 00:13:54,102 --> 00:13:57,222 Speaker 2: believe at this point, and she runs over to him. 228 00:13:57,302 --> 00:13:59,942 Speaker 2: She's pushing the snow off of him. At one point 229 00:14:00,022 --> 00:14:03,702 Speaker 2: she takes her shirt off, she takes his shirt off, 230 00:14:03,742 --> 00:14:09,382 Speaker 2: and she's trying to warm him up. And I believe 231 00:14:09,982 --> 00:14:14,102 Speaker 2: he's still alive at this point, or you know, maybe 232 00:14:14,142 --> 00:14:18,942 Speaker 2: he's just pronounced dead later. But it's really strange what 233 00:14:18,982 --> 00:14:21,942 Speaker 2: you end up seeing. Of course, I've never seen his 234 00:14:22,062 --> 00:14:25,022 Speaker 2: body on the scene, but he has two black eyes, 235 00:14:25,822 --> 00:14:28,902 Speaker 2: a big straight abrasion on the back of his head, 236 00:14:29,502 --> 00:14:31,742 Speaker 2: and he has a lot of what looked like claw 237 00:14:31,822 --> 00:14:36,742 Speaker 2: marks scratches on one of his arms, and he's bleeding 238 00:14:36,782 --> 00:14:39,502 Speaker 2: from the mouth and the nose and the eyes, and 239 00:14:39,582 --> 00:14:42,182 Speaker 2: so they call nine one one. Multiple people have called 240 00:14:42,262 --> 00:14:45,022 Speaker 2: nine one one at this point. And this is where 241 00:14:45,062 --> 00:14:48,822 Speaker 2: again it gets even more complicated because a lot of 242 00:14:48,862 --> 00:14:53,182 Speaker 2: people end up on this scene, the paramedics, the investigating 243 00:14:53,302 --> 00:14:57,422 Speaker 2: officers from the Canton Police Department, who do not investigate homicides, 244 00:14:57,502 --> 00:15:00,422 Speaker 2: let alone deaths, and so they're a little bit out 245 00:15:00,422 --> 00:15:04,062 Speaker 2: of their element. It's snowing. It's a crazy scene. It's 246 00:15:04,062 --> 00:15:09,022 Speaker 2: six in the morning, and Karen is screaming hysterically. Everyone 247 00:15:09,102 --> 00:15:11,862 Speaker 2: keeps talking about how crazy she's going at this scene, 248 00:15:11,902 --> 00:15:15,502 Speaker 2: while everyone else is very calm and they're just, you know, 249 00:15:15,582 --> 00:15:18,182 Speaker 2: kind of in shock that this is even happening to 250 00:15:18,462 --> 00:15:24,462 Speaker 2: their good friend John O'Keefe. And there are multiple accounts 251 00:15:24,982 --> 00:15:28,942 Speaker 2: that Karen said I hit him, I hit him, I 252 00:15:29,022 --> 00:15:33,742 Speaker 2: hit him, but nobody wrote it down in a single 253 00:15:33,742 --> 00:15:35,222 Speaker 2: report at the time. 254 00:15:36,342 --> 00:15:39,902 Speaker 1: There was also contention over the wording of that wasn't. 255 00:15:39,702 --> 00:15:44,342 Speaker 2: There right, And so she maintains that she did not 256 00:15:44,422 --> 00:15:47,822 Speaker 2: say I hit him. She maintains she asked did I 257 00:15:47,942 --> 00:15:52,182 Speaker 2: hit him? Could I have hit him? Because she's thinking 258 00:15:52,262 --> 00:15:55,222 Speaker 2: back to the night before when she dropped him off. 259 00:15:55,862 --> 00:15:57,902 Speaker 2: And so this is where it gets a little fuzzy, 260 00:15:57,942 --> 00:16:01,142 Speaker 2: because you you either have to believe that she doesn't 261 00:16:01,262 --> 00:16:04,742 Speaker 2: remember anything about that night, or she's only remembering details, 262 00:16:04,862 --> 00:16:08,222 Speaker 2: or they're coming to her over time, which could happen. 263 00:16:08,862 --> 00:16:13,182 Speaker 2: But really everything about this case is really complicated by 264 00:16:13,182 --> 00:16:17,182 Speaker 2: the fact that nobody secures the scene, none of the 265 00:16:17,542 --> 00:16:22,502 Speaker 2: officers separate the witnesses, They never go into the home. 266 00:16:22,742 --> 00:16:27,662 Speaker 2: Brian albert A police officer and a first responder never 267 00:16:27,742 --> 00:16:32,342 Speaker 2: comes out of his home to see what's going on outside, 268 00:16:32,582 --> 00:16:39,142 Speaker 2: and they start collecting evidence with red solo cups borrowed 269 00:16:39,182 --> 00:16:42,742 Speaker 2: from a cop neighbor who lives down the street. 270 00:16:43,342 --> 00:16:45,382 Speaker 1: That is a wild detile, isn't it. 271 00:16:45,902 --> 00:16:47,702 Speaker 2: I know it came out in the trial. It was 272 00:16:47,782 --> 00:16:49,662 Speaker 2: just like, how far away is the police department? You 273 00:16:49,702 --> 00:16:52,822 Speaker 2: guys don't have sterile plastic containers, like what would take 274 00:16:52,822 --> 00:16:56,222 Speaker 2: you five minutes to get there? So they're clearly out 275 00:16:56,222 --> 00:16:58,862 Speaker 2: of their element by the time the afternoon rolls around. 276 00:16:58,942 --> 00:17:01,102 Speaker 2: Obviously this case has been taken out of their hands 277 00:17:01,182 --> 00:17:04,502 Speaker 2: and it's given to the Massachusetts State Police. And this 278 00:17:04,782 --> 00:17:09,302 Speaker 2: complicates the case even more because the person assigned to 279 00:17:09,342 --> 00:17:13,182 Speaker 2: investigate this is Trooper Michael Proctor, and he is also 280 00:17:13,302 --> 00:17:15,542 Speaker 2: a friend of the homeowner, Brian Albert. 281 00:17:20,222 --> 00:17:24,142 Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jimmy Bath. 282 00:17:24,662 --> 00:17:33,742 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Jessica Laufa about the trial of Karen Reid. 283 00:17:34,942 --> 00:17:39,862 Speaker 1: What is John's actual cause of death put down in 284 00:17:40,182 --> 00:17:41,822 Speaker 1: his autopsy report? 285 00:17:42,422 --> 00:17:46,662 Speaker 2: This is what's crazy, is that his cause of death 286 00:17:46,782 --> 00:17:51,862 Speaker 2: is blunt force trauma mixed with hypothermia. So if it happened. 287 00:17:51,862 --> 00:17:56,142 Speaker 2: How the prosecution says it happened is that Karen Reid 288 00:17:56,182 --> 00:17:59,782 Speaker 2: backed up into John O'Keefe hit him with her car, 289 00:18:00,182 --> 00:18:03,702 Speaker 2: and he laid there for six hours until someone found him. 290 00:18:04,222 --> 00:18:09,182 Speaker 2: And it was freezing cold, wind whipping, snow piling up. 291 00:18:09,942 --> 00:18:12,822 Speaker 2: But what's so strange about that is that there were 292 00:18:12,862 --> 00:18:15,782 Speaker 2: a lot of people coming and going from this party 293 00:18:16,662 --> 00:18:21,622 Speaker 2: all night. And even the plow driver who came through 294 00:18:21,662 --> 00:18:24,422 Speaker 2: at two thirty in the morning has his light shining 295 00:18:24,422 --> 00:18:26,822 Speaker 2: and says he never sees anything in that front lawn, 296 00:18:26,902 --> 00:18:29,222 Speaker 2: and he would have noticed it because he drives this 297 00:18:29,342 --> 00:18:35,222 Speaker 2: route all the time. And they never determined his manner 298 00:18:35,262 --> 00:18:39,862 Speaker 2: of death, which is curious that you would try to 299 00:18:39,862 --> 00:18:43,262 Speaker 2: put someone on trial for murder without a determined manner 300 00:18:43,302 --> 00:18:43,742 Speaker 2: of death. 301 00:18:44,462 --> 00:18:48,142 Speaker 1: And there were, as you were saying before, quite bizarre 302 00:18:48,182 --> 00:18:52,102 Speaker 1: injuries on him if you consider that the prosecution thinks 303 00:18:52,142 --> 00:18:55,022 Speaker 1: that he was backed into, but he had bruises on 304 00:18:55,102 --> 00:18:59,182 Speaker 1: his eyes and he had weird mocks on his arms. 305 00:19:00,302 --> 00:19:02,582 Speaker 2: And that's the thing is that the prosecution has an 306 00:19:02,622 --> 00:19:06,062 Speaker 2: expert that testifies that these injuries are consistent with being 307 00:19:06,102 --> 00:19:09,302 Speaker 2: hit by a car, But the defense has an expert 308 00:19:09,342 --> 00:19:11,662 Speaker 2: that goes on and says or not this is consistent 309 00:19:11,702 --> 00:19:14,342 Speaker 2: with either a fight or an attack by an animal. 310 00:19:14,942 --> 00:19:16,702 Speaker 1: And there was an animal there wasn't there? 311 00:19:17,342 --> 00:19:20,182 Speaker 2: There was an animal there? And is if this story 312 00:19:20,262 --> 00:19:22,822 Speaker 2: is not crazy enough. Now a dog named Chloe becomes 313 00:19:22,902 --> 00:19:26,782 Speaker 2: a suspect. There's a German shepherd that's been living with 314 00:19:26,902 --> 00:19:32,262 Speaker 2: the Alberts for seven years, their beloved pet dog. And curiously, 315 00:19:33,302 --> 00:19:37,782 Speaker 2: they rehome this dog within months of John o'keeith's death. 316 00:19:38,302 --> 00:19:42,142 Speaker 2: And not only do they rehome the dog, they rehome themselves. 317 00:19:42,422 --> 00:19:45,422 Speaker 2: They buy a new home, even after they had just 318 00:19:45,502 --> 00:19:50,262 Speaker 2: renovated their entire basement. So a lot of curious things 319 00:19:50,382 --> 00:19:54,502 Speaker 2: going on, a lot of strange coincidences, I suppose. But 320 00:19:55,422 --> 00:19:59,342 Speaker 2: on the final day of the trial, before closing arguments, 321 00:20:00,102 --> 00:20:02,462 Speaker 2: they have an expert go up there and say, these 322 00:20:02,542 --> 00:20:05,942 Speaker 2: marks on John O'Keefe's arms are consistent with that of 323 00:20:06,102 --> 00:20:09,182 Speaker 2: dog claw marks and bites, and if you look at 324 00:20:09,222 --> 00:20:12,542 Speaker 2: the photos or look at other photos of dog attacks, 325 00:20:12,582 --> 00:20:17,742 Speaker 2: they look exactly the same. Nobody ever examined the dog. 326 00:20:17,822 --> 00:20:21,222 Speaker 2: The dog was living in Vermont, and they say that 327 00:20:21,302 --> 00:20:24,662 Speaker 2: they offered up the address of the dog if they 328 00:20:24,702 --> 00:20:28,942 Speaker 2: wanted to go interview her, But yeah, no one ever 329 00:20:29,022 --> 00:20:33,302 Speaker 2: really followed up with this lead, and because really the 330 00:20:33,382 --> 00:20:35,262 Speaker 2: crux of the story is is that they honed in 331 00:20:35,302 --> 00:20:40,982 Speaker 2: on Karen Reid from day one and they wanted someone 332 00:20:41,022 --> 00:20:44,222 Speaker 2: to blame this on, and they blamed it on her. 333 00:20:44,822 --> 00:20:49,142 Speaker 1: Well, she was arrested in early feb initially not charged 334 00:20:49,182 --> 00:20:53,182 Speaker 1: with murder, but quite quickly upgraded to murder two, which 335 00:20:53,382 --> 00:20:57,422 Speaker 1: frozsies is kind of like manslaughter. On what evidence was 336 00:20:57,422 --> 00:21:00,462 Speaker 1: that charge made? You've said that the prosecution claims that 337 00:21:00,862 --> 00:21:04,902 Speaker 1: the car backed into John, but what was the evidence 338 00:21:04,902 --> 00:21:05,622 Speaker 1: that that happened. 339 00:21:06,862 --> 00:21:11,422 Speaker 2: The evidence that they claim that proves Karen Reid hit 340 00:21:11,542 --> 00:21:15,422 Speaker 2: John O'Keeffe with her SUV is that there were microscopic 341 00:21:15,742 --> 00:21:22,182 Speaker 2: tail light pieces found on him, and there were tail 342 00:21:22,262 --> 00:21:25,422 Speaker 2: light pieces that were found around the scene underneath the snow. 343 00:21:25,542 --> 00:21:28,742 Speaker 2: So after they use the leaf blower to push all 344 00:21:28,782 --> 00:21:31,662 Speaker 2: the snow away, the state police finally come in with 345 00:21:31,742 --> 00:21:37,382 Speaker 2: shovels and find tail light pieces underneath the snow. And 346 00:21:37,422 --> 00:21:39,582 Speaker 2: so that's one of the contentious points of this case 347 00:21:39,622 --> 00:21:42,342 Speaker 2: is that nobody saw any tail light pieces until the 348 00:21:42,342 --> 00:21:46,862 Speaker 2: state police came in. And when you have an investigator 349 00:21:46,902 --> 00:21:49,422 Speaker 2: assigned to this case, who has as much history as 350 00:21:49,702 --> 00:21:53,702 Speaker 2: Trooper Proctor does. This is when the conspiracy starts to 351 00:21:53,982 --> 00:21:56,222 Speaker 2: really really boil to the surface. 352 00:21:57,222 --> 00:22:00,302 Speaker 1: Was there anything that directly challenged that version of events. 353 00:22:00,302 --> 00:22:03,942 Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of debate about that tail light evidence. 354 00:22:04,942 --> 00:22:08,702 Speaker 2: Yeah, the tail light evidence is really kind of crazy 355 00:22:08,742 --> 00:22:13,182 Speaker 2: because even at the trial, the plastic bag that the 356 00:22:13,222 --> 00:22:16,862 Speaker 2: tail light pieces are in multiply over time, like the 357 00:22:16,902 --> 00:22:19,502 Speaker 2: pieces multiply, and so at one point there's only three, 358 00:22:19,622 --> 00:22:23,222 Speaker 2: then there's five, And even over the course of the 359 00:22:23,262 --> 00:22:28,622 Speaker 2: investigation of this case, they found tailight pieces near his body, 360 00:22:29,302 --> 00:22:33,182 Speaker 2: then they found the microscopic pieces on him. But when 361 00:22:33,222 --> 00:22:36,862 Speaker 2: you see pictures of Karen's suv, the taillight did not 362 00:22:37,022 --> 00:22:39,982 Speaker 2: look as broken when they brought the car in as 363 00:22:39,982 --> 00:22:43,742 Speaker 2: it did when it left there. And so there's this 364 00:22:44,302 --> 00:22:48,862 Speaker 2: surveillance footage of the quote Sally Port that the Massachusetts 365 00:22:48,902 --> 00:22:52,822 Speaker 2: State Police brought her suv to search it to give 366 00:22:52,862 --> 00:22:56,382 Speaker 2: it a very thorough look through. And one thing that 367 00:22:56,462 --> 00:22:59,302 Speaker 2: the defense notices right away is that this video appears 368 00:22:59,342 --> 00:23:03,062 Speaker 2: to be inverted, and so what looks to be the 369 00:23:03,342 --> 00:23:07,062 Speaker 2: passenger side is actually the driver side, and what looks 370 00:23:07,102 --> 00:23:09,622 Speaker 2: to be the driver side is actually the passenger side, 371 00:23:09,662 --> 00:23:13,102 Speaker 2: and supposedly it's the right rear tail light, so on 372 00:23:13,142 --> 00:23:17,862 Speaker 2: the passenger side that's broken, and on the video you 373 00:23:18,062 --> 00:23:22,702 Speaker 2: see two people walk by and appear to be fiddling 374 00:23:22,742 --> 00:23:25,662 Speaker 2: with something. But because this looks like it might be 375 00:23:25,902 --> 00:23:30,822 Speaker 2: the driver's side, nobody's really thinking anything of it until 376 00:23:30,862 --> 00:23:33,662 Speaker 2: it's pointed out in the trial that no, this video 377 00:23:33,702 --> 00:23:35,622 Speaker 2: is inverted. They see the number on the wall, the 378 00:23:35,662 --> 00:23:39,102 Speaker 2: four is backwards on the police cruiser is backwards, and 379 00:23:39,182 --> 00:23:45,502 Speaker 2: so it's very, very, very complicated. What they're implying through 380 00:23:45,542 --> 00:23:48,822 Speaker 2: all of this is that Trooper Procter planted evidence and 381 00:23:48,862 --> 00:23:51,462 Speaker 2: purposely broke the tail light and brought the tail light 382 00:23:51,462 --> 00:23:54,662 Speaker 2: pieces back to the scene to plant in the snow 383 00:23:55,342 --> 00:23:57,502 Speaker 2: to frame Karen Read for this murder. 384 00:23:57,742 --> 00:24:01,702 Speaker 1: Which is a huge thing to accuse local law enforcement 385 00:24:01,742 --> 00:24:02,342 Speaker 1: of doing right. 386 00:24:03,942 --> 00:24:09,022 Speaker 2: It's not unheard of. There's a history in this area 387 00:24:09,142 --> 00:24:13,302 Speaker 2: of not trusting lawn. A lot of people don't trust authority, 388 00:24:13,342 --> 00:24:15,782 Speaker 2: a lot of people don't trust the police, and so 389 00:24:17,022 --> 00:24:21,142 Speaker 2: you have like two sides forming do you trust the 390 00:24:21,222 --> 00:24:25,262 Speaker 2: police investigating this case, or do you believe that this 391 00:24:25,302 --> 00:24:28,102 Speaker 2: woman is being railroaded in the death of her cop 392 00:24:28,142 --> 00:24:33,022 Speaker 2: boyfriend but it's not unheard of for this area to 393 00:24:33,142 --> 00:24:39,862 Speaker 2: be suspicious of these investigators, and turns out a lot 394 00:24:39,902 --> 00:24:43,142 Speaker 2: of them were right based on what happens after the trial. 395 00:24:44,182 --> 00:24:48,942 Speaker 1: But what reason would these cops have to frame her? 396 00:24:49,142 --> 00:24:52,142 Speaker 1: What do they say happened? The defense to John. 397 00:24:53,502 --> 00:24:57,542 Speaker 2: The defens's theory of what happened that night is that 398 00:24:58,302 --> 00:25:01,942 Speaker 2: Karen drops John O'Keeffe off at the Alberts. He goes 399 00:25:01,982 --> 00:25:08,302 Speaker 2: into the house and is immediately confronted by people in 400 00:25:08,342 --> 00:25:12,302 Speaker 2: the basement of the Albut at home, there's a weight 401 00:25:12,382 --> 00:25:15,462 Speaker 2: room down there, and they think that a fight broke 402 00:25:15,502 --> 00:25:19,302 Speaker 2: out pretty quickly. Someone may have hit John O'Keeffe with 403 00:25:19,342 --> 00:25:22,182 Speaker 2: a dumbbell on the back of the head, maybe punched 404 00:25:22,262 --> 00:25:26,382 Speaker 2: him in the face, and then maybe perhaps he fought 405 00:25:26,462 --> 00:25:29,742 Speaker 2: back and the dog intervened and the dog attacked him. 406 00:25:30,622 --> 00:25:38,822 Speaker 2: And I don't think anyone intended for John o'keef to die. Now, 407 00:25:38,822 --> 00:25:41,462 Speaker 2: this is all alleged. This is a house full of 408 00:25:41,622 --> 00:25:45,262 Speaker 2: law enforcement, so they have to spend the next few 409 00:25:45,262 --> 00:25:49,822 Speaker 2: hours trying to figure out what to do, and their 410 00:25:49,902 --> 00:25:53,422 Speaker 2: theory is that they bring the body out through this 411 00:25:54,102 --> 00:25:57,942 Speaker 2: back set of stairs from the basement to the backyard 412 00:25:58,342 --> 00:26:00,662 Speaker 2: and bring the body around to the front yard and 413 00:26:00,742 --> 00:26:08,102 Speaker 2: lay him there with his phone underneath him. 414 00:26:08,182 --> 00:26:10,662 Speaker 1: Up next, we delve deeper into the trial well that 415 00:26:10,782 --> 00:26:14,102 Speaker 1: captivated the world and the text messages that put a 416 00:26:14,182 --> 00:26:33,342 Speaker 1: lead investigator on notice. 417 00:26:24,822 --> 00:26:29,142 Speaker 2: And he lies there until Karen finds him at six 418 00:26:29,182 --> 00:26:35,422 Speaker 2: in the morning. And so how does this turn into 419 00:26:35,622 --> 00:26:39,102 Speaker 2: a big cover up? Is that Trooper Proctor again is 420 00:26:39,222 --> 00:26:42,862 Speaker 2: friends with Brian Albert. There is a thin blue line 421 00:26:43,942 --> 00:26:49,462 Speaker 2: cops protect other cops, and cops don't get in trouble 422 00:26:49,502 --> 00:26:52,942 Speaker 2: for these types of things, and we don't investigate other cops, 423 00:26:53,422 --> 00:26:57,582 Speaker 2: and especially not our friends. And so Trooper Proctor obviously 424 00:26:57,702 --> 00:26:59,822 Speaker 2: knew when he was pulling up to this house that 425 00:26:59,902 --> 00:27:02,462 Speaker 2: this was the house of his friend, Brian Albert. He 426 00:27:02,662 --> 00:27:05,342 Speaker 2: chose not to go in and interview, he chose not 427 00:27:05,422 --> 00:27:08,102 Speaker 2: to lock down the crime scene, he chose not to 428 00:27:08,142 --> 00:27:12,102 Speaker 2: separate the witnesses, and there were a lot of missteps, 429 00:27:12,142 --> 00:27:15,342 Speaker 2: and all of this is captured in his own text 430 00:27:15,342 --> 00:27:18,502 Speaker 2: messages that he embarrassingly has to read on the stand 431 00:27:19,382 --> 00:27:24,062 Speaker 2: in front of the world, where he admits that he's 432 00:27:24,102 --> 00:27:26,622 Speaker 2: gonna make this case cut and dried and pin it 433 00:27:26,702 --> 00:27:29,582 Speaker 2: on the girl, and the girl is Karen read, and 434 00:27:29,622 --> 00:27:33,022 Speaker 2: then there's a lot of horrible text messages where he's 435 00:27:33,542 --> 00:27:37,382 Speaker 2: talking about her body and how hot she is and 436 00:27:37,422 --> 00:27:41,062 Speaker 2: how he hates her accent, and he calls her the 437 00:27:41,102 --> 00:27:44,502 Speaker 2: C word, and you know, there's just a lot of 438 00:27:44,582 --> 00:27:48,942 Speaker 2: really disgusting things said by this man to his superiors. 439 00:27:49,822 --> 00:27:52,382 Speaker 2: So you can tell this is kind of a culture, right, 440 00:27:52,982 --> 00:27:57,422 Speaker 2: a culture in this department, in this law enforcement community, 441 00:27:57,902 --> 00:28:01,182 Speaker 2: that they can do anything and get away with it, 442 00:28:01,662 --> 00:28:04,782 Speaker 2: and even so far as to say no nudes yet 443 00:28:04,822 --> 00:28:10,422 Speaker 2: because he was going through Karen's phone, Oh my gosh. Yeah, 444 00:28:10,582 --> 00:28:14,582 Speaker 2: So all of this combined it makes it look like 445 00:28:14,622 --> 00:28:17,142 Speaker 2: a cover up. It makes it look from the beginning that, 446 00:28:17,222 --> 00:28:20,542 Speaker 2: you know what, this was Brian's house. We can't have 447 00:28:20,622 --> 00:28:24,062 Speaker 2: this on Brian. Let's just pin it on the girl, like, 448 00:28:24,262 --> 00:28:26,702 Speaker 2: let's just put it on her. And this didn't even 449 00:28:26,742 --> 00:28:29,742 Speaker 2: have to be a murder case. This didn't even have 450 00:28:29,822 --> 00:28:31,662 Speaker 2: to go to trial when you really think about it, 451 00:28:31,702 --> 00:28:34,222 Speaker 2: this could have just been an accident. I don't know 452 00:28:34,742 --> 00:28:37,502 Speaker 2: if the defensis theory is correct. I don't know if 453 00:28:37,542 --> 00:28:39,582 Speaker 2: this was planned from the beginning to pin it on 454 00:28:39,662 --> 00:28:43,262 Speaker 2: Karen or whether it just happened naturally after she supposedly 455 00:28:43,302 --> 00:28:46,182 Speaker 2: said I hit him at the scene. It all starts 456 00:28:46,222 --> 00:28:49,662 Speaker 2: to build and build and build to make for a 457 00:28:49,862 --> 00:28:55,862 Speaker 2: very very interesting case with a trial that riveted thousands 458 00:28:55,902 --> 00:28:59,342 Speaker 2: and took over TikTok for like an entire week. While 459 00:28:59,342 --> 00:29:02,262 Speaker 2: Trooper Proctor is reading these text messages on the stand, 460 00:29:02,542 --> 00:29:05,782 Speaker 2: apparently to the horrified jurors. We spoke to a reporter. 461 00:29:05,862 --> 00:29:09,422 Speaker 2: He said that the jurors were just disgusted visibly by 462 00:29:09,462 --> 00:29:13,542 Speaker 2: these text messages and by Trooper Proctor. And one interesting 463 00:29:13,542 --> 00:29:16,302 Speaker 2: thing to note is that the jurors, who are a 464 00:29:16,422 --> 00:29:19,782 Speaker 2: very important element of this case, they were not allowed 465 00:29:19,822 --> 00:29:24,422 Speaker 2: to be aware that Trooper Proctor was under investigation at 466 00:29:24,422 --> 00:29:28,382 Speaker 2: this time for his behavior on this case. They're not 467 00:29:28,422 --> 00:29:30,182 Speaker 2: allowed to know that, and they're not supposed to be 468 00:29:30,262 --> 00:29:33,022 Speaker 2: looking up information about the case after they leave. They're 469 00:29:33,022 --> 00:29:35,142 Speaker 2: not sequestered, so it's not like they're staying in a 470 00:29:35,182 --> 00:29:39,782 Speaker 2: hotel with no TV, no phone, no news. They're just 471 00:29:39,822 --> 00:29:41,902 Speaker 2: not supposed to be talking about it, and they're not 472 00:29:41,902 --> 00:29:44,662 Speaker 2: supposed to be looking up in information about it. So 473 00:29:45,902 --> 00:29:48,862 Speaker 2: not having that information is pretty interesting. But I think 474 00:29:48,902 --> 00:29:53,142 Speaker 2: he kind of you said it all himself on the stand. 475 00:29:53,582 --> 00:29:55,982 Speaker 1: Before we get more into the trial. I think it's 476 00:29:55,982 --> 00:29:59,782 Speaker 1: worth backtracking a bit to TikTok because, as you mentioned, 477 00:30:00,382 --> 00:30:03,222 Speaker 1: this case exploded. People might have heard of book talk. 478 00:30:03,382 --> 00:30:05,742 Speaker 1: There's also crime talk out there, and this was one 479 00:30:05,782 --> 00:30:09,342 Speaker 1: of those cases that just captivated the internet. And I 480 00:30:09,382 --> 00:30:11,302 Speaker 1: need to bring in Total Books because he's one of 481 00:30:11,342 --> 00:30:14,022 Speaker 1: the nine reasons for that. Who on earth is Total 482 00:30:14,062 --> 00:30:16,542 Speaker 1: Boy and why is he kind of the one that 483 00:30:16,622 --> 00:30:17,662 Speaker 1: helped fuel all of this? 484 00:30:18,582 --> 00:30:21,662 Speaker 2: Yeah, So Aidan Kearney is his real name, and he 485 00:30:21,982 --> 00:30:26,342 Speaker 2: goes by Turtle Boy. He's a local Massachusetts blogger. He's 486 00:30:26,582 --> 00:30:29,302 Speaker 2: had this blog for over ten years and he's really 487 00:30:29,382 --> 00:30:32,382 Speaker 2: known for his bravado and his kind of like take 488 00:30:32,462 --> 00:30:36,902 Speaker 2: no shit attitude. He's credited with bringing the Reed trial 489 00:30:36,982 --> 00:30:41,102 Speaker 2: to the public's attention and mobilizing the quote free Karen 490 00:30:41,142 --> 00:30:44,942 Speaker 2: Reid movement that ended up resulting in crowds and crowds 491 00:30:44,942 --> 00:30:48,222 Speaker 2: of people forming outside of the courthouse wearing these pink 492 00:30:48,262 --> 00:30:51,662 Speaker 2: shirts and solidarity with Kiaren with their signs, and it 493 00:30:51,702 --> 00:30:53,662 Speaker 2: really kind of took on the air of like a 494 00:30:53,702 --> 00:30:58,582 Speaker 2: celebrity trial for this tiny little town in Massachusetts. And 495 00:30:58,622 --> 00:31:03,862 Speaker 2: that's all because of Aiden Kearney, and he through our podcast, 496 00:31:04,062 --> 00:31:08,822 Speaker 2: which is just you know, affectually called Karen. We found 497 00:31:09,022 --> 00:31:13,462 Speaker 2: that Aidan Kearney was actually pretty heavily involved with the 498 00:31:13,502 --> 00:31:16,942 Speaker 2: defense before this case went to trial. He fed them 499 00:31:17,062 --> 00:31:21,942 Speaker 2: a lot of information about the Alberts and the mccabs, 500 00:31:22,142 --> 00:31:24,542 Speaker 2: and he found a lot of this through his own 501 00:31:24,582 --> 00:31:29,542 Speaker 2: investigative work. Now he has been charged with witness intimidation 502 00:31:29,902 --> 00:31:32,302 Speaker 2: and so you know, he's not a perfect person to 503 00:31:32,342 --> 00:31:35,422 Speaker 2: be aligned with as a defense attorney. But at the 504 00:31:35,422 --> 00:31:40,422 Speaker 2: same time, he really exposed the police cover up and 505 00:31:40,502 --> 00:31:44,342 Speaker 2: the corruption in this town and the conspiracy surrounding this case. 506 00:31:44,382 --> 00:31:45,022 Speaker 2: In particular. 507 00:31:45,742 --> 00:31:49,022 Speaker 1: He was also quite involved with Karen Rott mm hm. 508 00:31:49,982 --> 00:31:53,742 Speaker 2: So it turns out that Turtle Boy and Karen were 509 00:31:54,182 --> 00:31:56,262 Speaker 2: talking a lot. They talked a lot on the phone. 510 00:31:56,662 --> 00:31:59,622 Speaker 2: There was dozens and dozens of phone calls between the 511 00:31:59,662 --> 00:32:02,902 Speaker 2: two of them. She would feed him information, he would 512 00:32:02,902 --> 00:32:07,462 Speaker 2: feed her information, And yeah, they were pretty chummy there 513 00:32:07,502 --> 00:32:11,102 Speaker 2: at the beginning. And I don't necessarily think this is 514 00:32:11,182 --> 00:32:13,262 Speaker 2: a bad thing as long as you know he has 515 00:32:13,342 --> 00:32:17,462 Speaker 2: sources to back up like what he's saying. But the 516 00:32:17,542 --> 00:32:21,342 Speaker 2: defense was basically given a gift in Aiden Kearney to 517 00:32:22,542 --> 00:32:25,862 Speaker 2: really bolster this this conspiracy theory. 518 00:32:26,622 --> 00:32:28,422 Speaker 1: Let's get to the trial, because it was a very 519 00:32:28,462 --> 00:32:32,502 Speaker 1: long trial went for nine ten weeks, which is huge 520 00:32:32,862 --> 00:32:36,942 Speaker 1: for something like this. Was there anything that stood out 521 00:32:36,982 --> 00:32:39,542 Speaker 1: to you? Obviously we knew all of this web that 522 00:32:39,542 --> 00:32:43,662 Speaker 1: had been built beforehand, all of these players. How did 523 00:32:43,702 --> 00:32:44,462 Speaker 1: you find the trial? 524 00:32:45,822 --> 00:32:51,702 Speaker 2: The trial was super entertaining and long and maybe a 525 00:32:51,742 --> 00:32:57,622 Speaker 2: bit in the weeds more than people really want to experience. 526 00:32:57,702 --> 00:33:00,862 Speaker 2: You know, in your regular courtroom drama that you're watching, 527 00:33:00,902 --> 00:33:03,262 Speaker 2: you only get the fiery good stuff, which there was 528 00:33:03,302 --> 00:33:05,742 Speaker 2: a ton of that in this trial. There was a 529 00:33:05,822 --> 00:33:08,062 Speaker 2: lot of funny moments on the stand, a lot of 530 00:33:08,982 --> 00:33:13,142 Speaker 2: people who maybe could have view some better prep before 531 00:33:13,182 --> 00:33:16,542 Speaker 2: they went on the stand to testify. But in the end, 532 00:33:16,582 --> 00:33:22,022 Speaker 2: this was a very emotional, very heated, very caustic trial 533 00:33:22,582 --> 00:33:28,022 Speaker 2: with really great defenders of Karen Reid. Her defense attorneys 534 00:33:28,102 --> 00:33:33,462 Speaker 2: were top notch. They gave great performances in front of 535 00:33:33,502 --> 00:33:37,022 Speaker 2: this jury, and the prosecution in turn ended up looking 536 00:33:37,062 --> 00:33:40,102 Speaker 2: a little silly because they brought all of these witnesses 537 00:33:40,902 --> 00:33:46,502 Speaker 2: who basically have nothing to say. They all agree that 538 00:33:46,622 --> 00:33:49,942 Speaker 2: John O'Keefe never entered the house. They quote the guy 539 00:33:50,022 --> 00:33:52,702 Speaker 2: never went in the house. And the thing about that 540 00:33:52,822 --> 00:33:55,662 Speaker 2: is is that they're all on text messages together like 541 00:33:55,742 --> 00:33:58,582 Speaker 2: a text chain, kind of looking like they're trying to 542 00:33:58,622 --> 00:34:02,222 Speaker 2: get their story straight. And so all these people are 543 00:34:02,222 --> 00:34:06,102 Speaker 2: on the stand being grilled about these text messages. And 544 00:34:06,462 --> 00:34:08,502 Speaker 2: that's the other thing. When you're a witness in a 545 00:34:08,542 --> 00:34:11,062 Speaker 2: case like this, you have to turn over your phone, 546 00:34:11,102 --> 00:34:15,782 Speaker 2: and everyone did except for Brian Albert and Brian Higgins, 547 00:34:15,822 --> 00:34:19,862 Speaker 2: because their phones were destroyed right before the police were 548 00:34:19,942 --> 00:34:20,942 Speaker 2: able to collect them. 549 00:34:21,502 --> 00:34:22,542 Speaker 1: What which ends. 550 00:34:22,422 --> 00:34:25,622 Speaker 2: Up becoming a pretty huge part of Brian Higgins's testimony 551 00:34:26,142 --> 00:34:28,382 Speaker 2: so far, This is the standout moment to me, besides 552 00:34:28,422 --> 00:34:31,062 Speaker 2: the Trooper Proctor stuff, which was absolutely insane and at 553 00:34:31,142 --> 00:34:38,142 Speaker 2: least mildly entertaining Brian Higgins. It meant to destroying his phone, 554 00:34:38,262 --> 00:34:42,222 Speaker 2: not backing it up, and taking the SIM card out 555 00:34:42,262 --> 00:34:45,742 Speaker 2: of his phone and driving to a military base to 556 00:34:45,822 --> 00:34:49,102 Speaker 2: dispose of it in a bag along with his phone. 557 00:34:49,622 --> 00:34:52,982 Speaker 2: And the only thing that he saved were his texts 558 00:34:52,982 --> 00:34:54,902 Speaker 2: between Karen and John. 559 00:34:56,102 --> 00:34:59,022 Speaker 1: And to be clear, this is the Brian that was 560 00:34:59,062 --> 00:35:05,142 Speaker 1: sharing flirtatious text messages with correct Okay, I want to 561 00:35:05,142 --> 00:35:09,462 Speaker 1: bring in a search term used by Karen either before 562 00:35:09,542 --> 00:35:12,062 Speaker 1: or after she found Jill because it's also a really 563 00:35:12,102 --> 00:35:15,262 Speaker 1: important thing to bring in the text or the search 564 00:35:15,462 --> 00:35:19,302 Speaker 1: is how long to die in cold? Why was that 565 00:35:19,502 --> 00:35:21,062 Speaker 1: so heavily scrutinized. 566 00:35:22,622 --> 00:35:28,342 Speaker 2: Jennifer McCabe is the prosecution's star witness, or so they think, 567 00:35:28,622 --> 00:35:31,302 Speaker 2: and they put her on the stand. She's very confident 568 00:35:31,422 --> 00:35:34,462 Speaker 2: on her first day on the stand against some pretty 569 00:35:34,502 --> 00:35:38,982 Speaker 2: tough cross examination. But there's this Google search that happened 570 00:35:40,182 --> 00:35:43,182 Speaker 2: at around six point thirty in the morning, six twenty 571 00:35:43,222 --> 00:35:48,182 Speaker 2: two and six twenty three am, where she says that 572 00:35:48,582 --> 00:35:51,662 Speaker 2: Karen told her to google how long does it take 573 00:35:51,742 --> 00:35:54,062 Speaker 2: for a person to die in the cold, And because 574 00:35:54,102 --> 00:35:58,302 Speaker 2: it's such a chaotic scene it's so cold, she mistypes 575 00:35:58,342 --> 00:36:00,662 Speaker 2: it and ends up being like, has slung to die 576 00:36:00,742 --> 00:36:04,302 Speaker 2: in cold? And cold's misspelled? And how's misspelled? And the 577 00:36:04,342 --> 00:36:09,182 Speaker 2: search is done twice. But when this data is analyzed 578 00:36:09,262 --> 00:36:12,942 Speaker 2: by this company called Celebrate, it turns out that the 579 00:36:13,022 --> 00:36:18,542 Speaker 2: first time this was searched was at two twenty seven am. 580 00:36:18,942 --> 00:36:24,302 Speaker 2: So if Jennifer McCabe, the sister in law of the homeowner, 581 00:36:25,022 --> 00:36:27,382 Speaker 2: was searching how long to die in the cold at 582 00:36:27,382 --> 00:36:31,422 Speaker 2: two twenty seven am, this exonerates Karen one hundred percent 583 00:36:31,582 --> 00:36:37,582 Speaker 2: because clearly someone in that house knew that someone was 584 00:36:37,622 --> 00:36:42,662 Speaker 2: outside dying and they did nothing about it. However, the 585 00:36:42,742 --> 00:36:51,182 Speaker 2: Celebrate expert that the prosecution uses says this search did 586 00:36:51,222 --> 00:36:55,462 Speaker 2: not take place at twenty seven in the morning. She 587 00:36:55,662 --> 00:36:59,382 Speaker 2: had a browser opened at two twenty seven in the morning, 588 00:36:59,462 --> 00:37:01,902 Speaker 2: and when she went to go Google it at six 589 00:37:01,902 --> 00:37:05,662 Speaker 2: point twenty two in the morning, it made it look 590 00:37:05,862 --> 00:37:09,102 Speaker 2: like because she had just used the same browser that 591 00:37:09,142 --> 00:37:11,942 Speaker 2: she was using at two thirty am looking up basketball 592 00:37:11,942 --> 00:37:14,222 Speaker 2: stuff for her daughter, it made it look like the 593 00:37:14,302 --> 00:37:17,902 Speaker 2: search was actually performed then, but that's just when the 594 00:37:17,942 --> 00:37:24,742 Speaker 2: browser was last used. However, the defense argues the opposite, 595 00:37:24,782 --> 00:37:28,102 Speaker 2: that they have a newer version of the Celebrate data 596 00:37:28,262 --> 00:37:31,262 Speaker 2: and that proves that the search was conducted at two 597 00:37:31,342 --> 00:37:35,662 Speaker 2: twenty seven am and also again when instructed by Karen 598 00:37:35,702 --> 00:37:40,942 Speaker 2: Reid to perform the search. So, I mean, ultimately, if 599 00:37:40,982 --> 00:37:43,382 Speaker 2: the search did not happen at two twenty seven am, 600 00:37:43,582 --> 00:37:47,062 Speaker 2: this evidence is completely like moot. It doesn't matter. But 601 00:37:47,182 --> 00:37:50,062 Speaker 2: this is like three days of the trial is going 602 00:37:50,102 --> 00:37:52,022 Speaker 2: over this search term. 603 00:37:52,302 --> 00:37:55,182 Speaker 1: Well, this just gives you a taste of just how 604 00:37:55,182 --> 00:38:00,222 Speaker 1: confusing this tist becomes and how complicated all of these 605 00:38:00,702 --> 00:38:04,742 Speaker 1: moving pots are, I don't envy the jury? How did 606 00:38:04,742 --> 00:38:05,422 Speaker 1: that go with it? 607 00:38:06,622 --> 00:38:09,582 Speaker 2: So the jury deliberated for over twenty hours over the 608 00:38:09,622 --> 00:38:13,942 Speaker 2: course of five days and lawng Crime. We live streamed 609 00:38:13,982 --> 00:38:19,062 Speaker 2: the entire trial. We had forty thousand people watching. I 610 00:38:19,102 --> 00:38:21,222 Speaker 2: think like at the most there was like fifty thousand 611 00:38:21,222 --> 00:38:24,462 Speaker 2: people in the live stream at the highest peak. And 612 00:38:25,462 --> 00:38:28,382 Speaker 2: it was a Friday afternoon. Everyone thought, we're going to 613 00:38:28,422 --> 00:38:31,302 Speaker 2: get a verdict. The jurors surely want to be done 614 00:38:31,342 --> 00:38:33,942 Speaker 2: with this, right. Well, no, they decide they want to 615 00:38:33,942 --> 00:38:35,862 Speaker 2: take the weekend to think about it, and they come 616 00:38:35,942 --> 00:38:40,302 Speaker 2: back on Monday and they say they're deadlocked. They say 617 00:38:40,342 --> 00:38:44,662 Speaker 2: they cannot come to a unanimous decision and that if 618 00:38:44,702 --> 00:38:51,142 Speaker 2: they were to continue deliberating, it would only result in 619 00:38:51,222 --> 00:38:56,182 Speaker 2: one of them having to compromise on their beliefs, and 620 00:38:56,502 --> 00:38:58,782 Speaker 2: they didn't feel like they were going to be able 621 00:38:58,822 --> 00:39:02,542 Speaker 2: to do that, and so they deliver this super eloquent 622 00:39:02,622 --> 00:39:06,062 Speaker 2: message to the judge. The judge accepts it and declares 623 00:39:06,262 --> 00:39:10,462 Speaker 2: a mistrial, which did not surprise a lot of the 624 00:39:10,542 --> 00:39:14,782 Speaker 2: legal analysts and reporters watching this case, because, as you 625 00:39:14,822 --> 00:39:18,862 Speaker 2: can tell, everything we've talked about, this was pretty complicated. 626 00:39:19,142 --> 00:39:21,462 Speaker 2: You know, in essence, it's a he said, she said 627 00:39:21,742 --> 00:39:24,382 Speaker 2: with a lot of the evidence, like they say this 628 00:39:24,502 --> 00:39:26,662 Speaker 2: tail light evidence was there, and the other side says 629 00:39:26,662 --> 00:39:29,782 Speaker 2: it wasn't. And so that's basically like the Google search, 630 00:39:30,302 --> 00:39:34,862 Speaker 2: the tail light, the body itself, everything has two sides 631 00:39:34,902 --> 00:39:38,142 Speaker 2: to it, and so it's no surprise that these jurors 632 00:39:38,182 --> 00:39:42,262 Speaker 2: weren't unable to come to a unanimous decision. In my opinion, Well. 633 00:39:42,142 --> 00:39:43,582 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, all you have to 634 00:39:43,622 --> 00:39:47,382 Speaker 1: do is prove that there is reasonable doubt. 635 00:39:47,502 --> 00:39:50,782 Speaker 2: Well exactly, and so a lot of people that we 636 00:39:50,862 --> 00:39:54,542 Speaker 2: talked to for the podcast actually said that that was 637 00:39:54,662 --> 00:39:58,702 Speaker 2: an interesting position for Alan Jackson and David Ynetti to take, 638 00:39:59,382 --> 00:40:02,582 Speaker 2: was to come up with this third culprit theory. And 639 00:40:02,622 --> 00:40:05,062 Speaker 2: you know, they fought in pre trial hearings to even 640 00:40:05,102 --> 00:40:09,622 Speaker 2: be able to bring this into the trial, because the 641 00:40:09,662 --> 00:40:12,502 Speaker 2: American legal is absolutely insane. You have to like have 642 00:40:12,942 --> 00:40:16,862 Speaker 2: a bajillion pre trial hearings in order to present anything 643 00:40:16,862 --> 00:40:20,142 Speaker 2: that you basically want to say, and so they had 644 00:40:20,142 --> 00:40:23,302 Speaker 2: to get permission to be able to say if she 645 00:40:23,382 --> 00:40:27,422 Speaker 2: didn't do it, someone else did, and we want to 646 00:40:27,462 --> 00:40:30,342 Speaker 2: say there's a third party culprit, and we want to 647 00:40:30,542 --> 00:40:33,822 Speaker 2: explain how we think it happened, And so a lot 648 00:40:33,862 --> 00:40:37,582 Speaker 2: of people said there was enough reasonable doubt without even 649 00:40:38,262 --> 00:40:40,902 Speaker 2: this theory that he was beat up in the home, 650 00:40:41,382 --> 00:40:44,782 Speaker 2: dragged out of the back the basement, left there to 651 00:40:44,902 --> 00:40:47,542 Speaker 2: die by this group of people, and that fifty people 652 00:40:47,582 --> 00:40:51,102 Speaker 2: in the end end up agreeing to this one story 653 00:40:51,302 --> 00:40:54,822 Speaker 2: to protect themselves and blame it all on this one woman. 654 00:40:55,582 --> 00:40:58,942 Speaker 2: Was that even necessary, because if you strip all that away, 655 00:40:59,822 --> 00:41:03,302 Speaker 2: there is so much reasonable doubt even with the story 656 00:41:03,382 --> 00:41:07,622 Speaker 2: the prosecution wanted the jury to believe. So if this 657 00:41:07,742 --> 00:41:10,222 Speaker 2: case does end up going to a new trial, with 658 00:41:10,422 --> 00:41:13,142 Speaker 2: which the prosecution has said that they intend to retry 659 00:41:13,142 --> 00:41:16,422 Speaker 2: the case, Karen's team says that they are ready for 660 00:41:16,502 --> 00:41:20,262 Speaker 2: the fight. But there was a motion to dismiss in 661 00:41:20,342 --> 00:41:23,942 Speaker 2: early August, and the judge is still considering that motion 662 00:41:24,222 --> 00:41:27,942 Speaker 2: as we speak now, and the new trials already set 663 00:41:28,022 --> 00:41:29,462 Speaker 2: for late January. 664 00:41:29,262 --> 00:41:33,542 Speaker 1: Twenty five five. A few things did happen not long 665 00:41:33,582 --> 00:41:36,582 Speaker 1: after that mistrial, which is not that long ago from 666 00:41:36,582 --> 00:41:40,702 Speaker 1: when we're having this conversation Michael Procter. He was relieved 667 00:41:40,742 --> 00:41:43,862 Speaker 1: of his duty then suspended without pay. Was that surprising, 668 00:41:44,942 --> 00:41:45,502 Speaker 1: not at all? 669 00:41:45,622 --> 00:41:49,462 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people were suspecting that they 670 00:41:49,502 --> 00:41:52,462 Speaker 2: wanted to relieve him of his duties during the trial, 671 00:41:52,542 --> 00:41:56,622 Speaker 2: but they didn't want to complicate matters or mess up 672 00:41:56,622 --> 00:42:00,142 Speaker 2: the case for the prosecution. So yeah, he was relieved 673 00:42:00,142 --> 00:42:03,462 Speaker 2: of his duties. And then it's revealed that there are 674 00:42:03,582 --> 00:42:05,942 Speaker 2: two more people from the state police that are being 675 00:42:06,022 --> 00:42:11,742 Speaker 2: investigated for their actions in this case. So that's three 676 00:42:13,622 --> 00:42:19,022 Speaker 2: investigators compromised. And that's a problem for the prosecution because 677 00:42:19,022 --> 00:42:20,622 Speaker 2: if you really are going to want to bring this 678 00:42:20,702 --> 00:42:23,422 Speaker 2: case a trial, you have three poison apples who are 679 00:42:23,502 --> 00:42:27,182 Speaker 2: supposed to be your line of protection, Like these are 680 00:42:27,222 --> 00:42:29,902 Speaker 2: the people that were supposed to trust their the authority. 681 00:42:29,902 --> 00:42:32,062 Speaker 2: We're supposed to be able to believe everything that they 682 00:42:32,102 --> 00:42:35,382 Speaker 2: say on the stand because they're the ones investigating. And 683 00:42:36,422 --> 00:42:37,942 Speaker 2: what do you do after that? 684 00:42:39,342 --> 00:42:41,662 Speaker 1: Do you honestly think, after digging so deep into this 685 00:42:41,782 --> 00:42:45,622 Speaker 1: case that we could see a different result if this 686 00:42:45,702 --> 00:42:46,582 Speaker 1: goes to trial again. 687 00:42:47,862 --> 00:42:50,382 Speaker 2: It's hard to say. I mean, I do wonder how 688 00:42:50,462 --> 00:42:53,542 Speaker 2: the defense would maybe change course, if they're going to 689 00:42:53,662 --> 00:42:58,502 Speaker 2: still stick with this third party culprit defense, or if 690 00:42:58,542 --> 00:43:02,542 Speaker 2: they are just going to allow the prosecution to dig 691 00:43:02,582 --> 00:43:05,662 Speaker 2: their own graves, so to speak, and just allow the 692 00:43:05,742 --> 00:43:11,142 Speaker 2: reasonable doubt to shine, because there really is no solid 693 00:43:11,222 --> 00:43:17,582 Speaker 2: proof that Karen Reid killed John O'Keefe, and murder too 694 00:43:17,662 --> 00:43:21,702 Speaker 2: is manslaughter, but there's also no intent there. And does 695 00:43:21,742 --> 00:43:25,902 Speaker 2: this woman deserve to spend upwards of twenty plus years 696 00:43:25,902 --> 00:43:29,942 Speaker 2: in prison for an accident? You know, obviously this family 697 00:43:30,422 --> 00:43:37,502 Speaker 2: deserves justice, and they are very upset with how famous 698 00:43:37,502 --> 00:43:40,382 Speaker 2: this case has become and how Karen Reid's popularity has 699 00:43:40,422 --> 00:43:44,062 Speaker 2: grown over this, and they deserve some kind of closure. 700 00:43:44,542 --> 00:43:48,542 Speaker 2: But I just don't know if any closure will come 701 00:43:48,542 --> 00:43:53,262 Speaker 2: from another trial unless new evidence is uncovered. 702 00:43:54,142 --> 00:43:56,222 Speaker 1: The other thing to come out after the mistrial was 703 00:43:56,222 --> 00:43:58,702 Speaker 1: the jurors actually coming forward and speaking, which I'm not 704 00:43:58,742 --> 00:44:02,382 Speaker 1: sure is completely legal, but what did they actually say? 705 00:44:03,262 --> 00:44:07,942 Speaker 2: So after the mistrial was declared and Trooper Proctor was 706 00:44:07,982 --> 00:44:12,102 Speaker 2: fired from the Massachusetts State Police, a lot of jurors, 707 00:44:12,382 --> 00:44:16,822 Speaker 2: forgers to be exact, came forward pretty quickly, and they 708 00:44:16,862 --> 00:44:19,462 Speaker 2: went to Alan Jackson and David Yanetti first, and they said, 709 00:44:19,982 --> 00:44:24,742 Speaker 2: we reached two unanimous decisions. Out of the three charges, 710 00:44:25,382 --> 00:44:29,422 Speaker 2: we reached unanimous decisions on two of the charges. There 711 00:44:29,462 --> 00:44:32,662 Speaker 2: was only one we couldn't agree on, which this was 712 00:44:32,702 --> 00:44:36,262 Speaker 2: actually a big part of the arguments on the defensive 713 00:44:36,302 --> 00:44:39,422 Speaker 2: side during the trial is that the jury instructions were 714 00:44:39,542 --> 00:44:44,862 Speaker 2: very confusing, and they felt that they were purposely confusing, 715 00:44:44,902 --> 00:44:47,662 Speaker 2: and that the judge didn't write them out correctly or 716 00:44:47,662 --> 00:44:50,182 Speaker 2: didn't explain them correctly, and so it could lead to 717 00:44:50,222 --> 00:44:54,022 Speaker 2: something like this happening. And a bunch of jurors then 718 00:44:54,102 --> 00:44:56,942 Speaker 2: went to the district attorney's office and said the same thing. 719 00:44:57,542 --> 00:45:01,862 Speaker 2: And the reason why this is important is because in 720 00:45:01,902 --> 00:45:06,142 Speaker 2: the United States of America, there's this rule called double jeopardy, 721 00:45:06,502 --> 00:45:12,462 Speaker 2: and you cannot be prosecuted again for the same charges 722 00:45:12,862 --> 00:45:18,262 Speaker 2: if a jury found you innocent of them. And so 723 00:45:18,342 --> 00:45:21,342 Speaker 2: the only one they couldn't come to a conclusion on 724 00:45:22,262 --> 00:45:24,022 Speaker 2: was the one that had to do with the vehicle. 725 00:45:24,782 --> 00:45:28,462 Speaker 1: So they agreed on the murder charge. Well, the manslaughter 726 00:45:28,462 --> 00:45:29,022 Speaker 1: of charge. 727 00:45:29,422 --> 00:45:33,102 Speaker 2: Yes, the jury was unanimous in finding Read not guilty 728 00:45:33,182 --> 00:45:37,782 Speaker 2: of second degree murder and leaving the scene of personal 729 00:45:37,782 --> 00:45:42,582 Speaker 2: injury and death. They found her unanimously innocent not guilty 730 00:45:42,742 --> 00:45:46,862 Speaker 2: of these charges on manslaughter and the lesser included charges. 731 00:45:47,182 --> 00:45:50,302 Speaker 2: The juror said. The jury's final vote was a quote 732 00:45:50,382 --> 00:45:58,662 Speaker 2: soft nine to three, with nine voting guilty. So This 733 00:45:58,902 --> 00:46:01,782 Speaker 2: is something that the judge is really going to have 734 00:46:01,822 --> 00:46:04,222 Speaker 2: to consider very seriously, and that's why I'm not surprised 735 00:46:04,262 --> 00:46:07,102 Speaker 2: that it's taking her quite a long time to come 736 00:46:07,142 --> 00:46:07,902 Speaker 2: to this decision. 737 00:46:08,822 --> 00:46:10,102 Speaker 1: With all of that in mind, I'm going to ask 738 00:46:10,182 --> 00:46:14,102 Speaker 1: one final question. Do you think the Internet and the 739 00:46:14,142 --> 00:46:17,222 Speaker 1: Free Karen movement, given all of this stuff that's come 740 00:46:17,262 --> 00:46:20,102 Speaker 1: out since the mistrial, do you think this is just 741 00:46:20,102 --> 00:46:21,062 Speaker 1: going to keep exploding? 742 00:46:22,302 --> 00:46:25,382 Speaker 2: I do, and I think that Turtle Boy's going to 743 00:46:25,422 --> 00:46:27,142 Speaker 2: have a lot to do with that. You know, he 744 00:46:27,222 --> 00:46:31,622 Speaker 2: got a lot of fame from this. He says that 745 00:46:31,742 --> 00:46:37,702 Speaker 2: he's received a podcast and movie deal, and the TikTok 746 00:46:37,942 --> 00:46:42,782 Speaker 2: In Couch detectives are still at it with exposing what 747 00:46:42,902 --> 00:46:46,982 Speaker 2: they think are important details that, of course, you can't 748 00:46:47,222 --> 00:46:52,622 Speaker 2: prove in any courtroom. And I think that the Internet 749 00:46:52,702 --> 00:46:55,502 Speaker 2: is a perfect place for a conspiracy theory to grow 750 00:46:55,582 --> 00:47:00,262 Speaker 2: and grow and grow and grow. And if the judge 751 00:47:00,262 --> 00:47:02,902 Speaker 2: comes back and says we're not going to try this 752 00:47:03,022 --> 00:47:07,302 Speaker 2: case again, I think it would die out eventually. But 753 00:47:07,422 --> 00:47:10,982 Speaker 2: if she says no, we're going back to trial, this 754 00:47:11,022 --> 00:47:13,782 Speaker 2: is never going to die. It's going to get even 755 00:47:13,862 --> 00:47:18,422 Speaker 2: more attention because there's a Netflix documentary coming out. You know, 756 00:47:18,502 --> 00:47:21,262 Speaker 2: our podcast is out. Your podcast is going to be 757 00:47:21,302 --> 00:47:24,582 Speaker 2: coming out. Every true crime podcast is talking about this, 758 00:47:24,702 --> 00:47:27,342 Speaker 2: and so there's going to be probably like ten times 759 00:47:27,382 --> 00:47:31,182 Speaker 2: the amount of ears and eyeballs on this than there 760 00:47:31,342 --> 00:47:35,782 Speaker 2: was in the first place. And so, unfortunately, conspiracy theories 761 00:47:36,142 --> 00:47:39,982 Speaker 2: and really interesting cases like this are just bound to 762 00:47:40,022 --> 00:47:43,902 Speaker 2: grow and grow and grow until someone says, Okay, here's 763 00:47:43,902 --> 00:47:44,502 Speaker 2: your closure. 764 00:47:49,702 --> 00:47:52,342 Speaker 1: Thanks to Jessica for assisting us to tell this story. 765 00:47:52,782 --> 00:47:55,862 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and 766 00:47:55,862 --> 00:47:59,702 Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Buff with audio design by Scott Stronik. 767 00:48:00,262 --> 00:48:04,182 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Crystal corn Nielssen. Thanks for listening. 768 00:48:04,182 --> 00:48:07,022 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation