WEBVTT - Katie Never Thought Her Partner Was Violent Until He Killed Her

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<v Speaker 1>It's a Friday night in March twenty eighteen, and twenty

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<v Speaker 1>nine year old Katie Hayley is lounging on the couch

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<v Speaker 1>on her phone after a big day on her feet

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<v Speaker 1>working at a local Melbourne tavern. Her ten month old

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<v Speaker 1>daughter is tucked up in bed and Katie is exhausted.

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<v Speaker 1>She's ready to rest, zone out do some scrolling, but

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<v Speaker 1>her boyfriend Shane has picked a fight again. He didn't

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<v Speaker 1>stop messaging her all day, calling, texting, checking in, accusing

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<v Speaker 1>her of lying, of cheating, of doing something wrong, of

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<v Speaker 1>posting something he didn't like on social media. But this

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<v Speaker 1>time Katie has reached her limit. I'm over it, she

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<v Speaker 1>tells him, and begins to angrily pack a bag. She's

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<v Speaker 1>ready to get both herself and her daughter out of

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<v Speaker 1>this house, away from him. She tells him she doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>love him anymore. She tells him it's over for good.

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<v Speaker 1>He has pushed her too far with his controlling, possessive

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<v Speaker 1>behavior that Katie never makes it out the door. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Jemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a

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<v Speaker 1>podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to

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<v Speaker 1>the people who know the most about them before you

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<v Speaker 1>listen today, this conversation does talk about family violence, so

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<v Speaker 1>listen with care. What twenty nine year old Shane Robertson

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<v Speaker 1>did to his partner and the mother of his baby

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty eighteen is so violent. The judge that eventually

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<v Speaker 1>sentenced him condemned his uncontrollable rage while locking him away

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<v Speaker 1>for twenty four years. I'm going to describe his actions

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<v Speaker 1>on that fateful evening because it's important to understand how

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<v Speaker 1>horrific they were as we revisit this story. But consider

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<v Speaker 1>this your warning. Katie was struck at least two to

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<v Speaker 1>three times in the face and twice in the throat

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<v Speaker 1>with a forty centimeter dumbbell bar while her daughter slept

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<v Speaker 1>in the next room. Shane then left the house with

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<v Speaker 1>their baby, and without calling an ambulance. He left apology

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<v Speaker 1>notes on the kitchen table and called his mum. I

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<v Speaker 1>bashed her brains in he confessed, there are brains everywhere.

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<v Speaker 1>Katie's body was only identifiable from her dental records. This

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<v Speaker 1>story isn't just about a horrific homicide. It's a textbook

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<v Speaker 1>example of a coercively controlled DV relationship which escalated into

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<v Speaker 1>extreme rage filled violence. Since her murder, Katie's sister, Bianca

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<v Speaker 1>and father Boyd have become public advocates against domestic gendered violence,

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<v Speaker 1>determined to warn others about coercive control and the warning

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<v Speaker 1>signs that were missed. Bianca joins us now to tell

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<v Speaker 1>us about her sister. Bianka, Thank you for joining us

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<v Speaker 1>on True Crime Conversations. Firstly, I want to acknowledge your

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<v Speaker 1>sister and just say I'm so sorry for your loss

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<v Speaker 1>and what you've been going through for the past nearly decade. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>she sounds like she was an incredible person.

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<v Speaker 2>She was she was honestly the best sister I could

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<v Speaker 2>ever ask for. She was the best mother to her

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<v Speaker 2>two beautiful children, the best daughter, and she is so

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<v Speaker 2>so deeply misspi us.

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<v Speaker 1>All take me back to your childhood. How did you

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<v Speaker 1>grow up, Where did you grow up, and what did

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<v Speaker 1>your family unit look like.

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<v Speaker 2>Our family has always been really close, so growing up

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<v Speaker 2>we were really really close. My sister was nine years

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<v Speaker 2>older than me, so we didn't really have that sibling

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<v Speaker 2>friendship per se. We were constantly bickering. I was the

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<v Speaker 2>annoying little sister when she was a teenager, she was

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<v Speaker 2>you know, too busy to play barbie dolls and things

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<v Speaker 2>like that. So we never were really close growing up,

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<v Speaker 2>but our whole family was super close. My sister was

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<v Speaker 2>just someone that you could get along with. She was

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<v Speaker 2>very shy, very reserved, but to us, the people that

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<v Speaker 2>knew her, she was very loud, very out there, was

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<v Speaker 2>very quirky. She had a very interesting way of looking

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<v Speaker 2>at the world. Some of her most famous lines are,

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<v Speaker 2>you wouldn't go camping, you'd go tempting. Or wasn't insects

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<v Speaker 2>attacking her? It was animals. So it was just like

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<v Speaker 2>those little quirky things that just constantly made us laugh.

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<v Speaker 2>And yeah, she was just a very pivotal part of

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<v Speaker 2>our family.

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<v Speaker 1>What was Katie most passionate about in life?

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<v Speaker 2>She was most passionate about her children. Ultimately, she always

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to be a mother growing up. That was just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of we always knew that she wanted to be

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<v Speaker 2>a mum, and she did become a mom from a

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<v Speaker 2>really young age, and that was her greatest passion in life.

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<v Speaker 2>She also did love hairdressing and she became a hairdresser.

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<v Speaker 2>She was amazing at it. I was her guinea pig

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<v Speaker 2>from the age of ten, so I was annoying her

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<v Speaker 2>because you know, I'd get my hair done and I

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<v Speaker 2>would complain about it because she's my sister. She wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>my hairdresser, so I would complain about it. She would

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<v Speaker 2>complain back that I had too much hair, and then

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I wouldn't get that hair treatment. I would

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<v Speaker 2>get that get in the shower, pull your own foils out,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'll try it kind of vibe. But she was

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<v Speaker 2>very passionate about hairdressing, and she was just very passionate

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<v Speaker 2>about her children and ultimately just wanted to give them

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<v Speaker 2>the world. Do you remember her relationships prior to Shane

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<v Speaker 2>and like her kind of love life, What was her

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<v Speaker 2>relationships like? What was she like in them? Unfortunately for Katie,

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<v Speaker 2>she doesn't have a great track record in relationships, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think that really set the precedents for all the

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<v Speaker 2>relationships that proceeded, because when you're young, you kind of

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<v Speaker 2>once you've kind of entered into those sorts of relationships

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<v Speaker 2>where you aren't valued or that behavior is kind of

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<v Speaker 2>there and you're kind of made to feel less than

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<v Speaker 2>you gravitate to people like that. You think that that's

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<v Speaker 2>all you deserve in this life, and so Unfortunately for Katie,

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<v Speaker 2>she didn't have the best of relationships. Not all of

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<v Speaker 2>them were terrible, they just definitely weren't right for her.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was something, especially being a mum at such

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<v Speaker 2>a young age as well, that she had to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of consider her children in all of the relationships or

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<v Speaker 2>anything like that, that what was in the best interest

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<v Speaker 2>of them. But it definitely was a pattern of behavior

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<v Speaker 2>of her not being appreciated and her obviously not valuing herself.

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<v Speaker 1>More so, for context for listeners, when she met Shane,

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<v Speaker 1>she was already a mum, she had a son. How

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<v Speaker 1>did she meet him? What was the start of their relationship?

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<v Speaker 2>Like, So, Katie met Shane through mutual friends and they

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<v Speaker 2>just started off as friends. We were introduced to him

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<v Speaker 2>just in a general friend group at Aidan's birthday party.

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<v Speaker 2>He seemed nice enough, they bantered. It was really just

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<v Speaker 2>a nice friendship. But then ultimately, you know, feelings happened

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<v Speaker 2>and they ended up dating. And he had already got

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<v Speaker 2>two kids from a previous relationship as well, so obviously

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<v Speaker 2>we thought, oh, this is great, Like, he knows what

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<v Speaker 2>it takes to be a parent, He understands the sacrifices

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<v Speaker 2>that you make and that they are your main priority

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<v Speaker 2>in life. So we thought, like, this is a great dynamic, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>she seemed really really happy. It was probably the happiest

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<v Speaker 2>we'd ever seen her. They seemed to just get along

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<v Speaker 2>really well. There was an element of lightheartedness about their

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<v Speaker 2>relationship despite ongoing issues with ex partners and everything like

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<v Speaker 2>that that you could weigh you down. But she seemed

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<v Speaker 2>really really happy. He seemed really happy, and we were

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<v Speaker 2>just really excited that she'd finally found someone that we

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<v Speaker 2>thought appreciated her and made her this happy, bubbly person

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<v Speaker 2>that we know she is.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you spend much time with him? Did you get

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<v Speaker 1>on with him?

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<v Speaker 2>We did so. We welcomed him into our family, like

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<v Speaker 2>we went on family holidays with him, which, in hindsight,

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<v Speaker 2>looking back, like it makes a lot of our memories

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<v Speaker 2>really hard to look at because he's there. So there's

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<v Speaker 2>been a lot of attempts at the photoshopping to remove him.

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<v Speaker 2>We've had lovely people reach out and they have removed

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<v Speaker 2>him from family photos because we can't look back on

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<v Speaker 2>the last few years of Katie's life without him being

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<v Speaker 2>a presence there, even to the extent of looking on

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<v Speaker 2>her social media like, we don't get to just enjoy

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<v Speaker 2>looking at her photos of her and her kids because

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<v Speaker 2>he's popping up in all of them. He's very present.

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<v Speaker 2>But we were, yeah, very welcoming. We did lots of

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<v Speaker 2>things together, Christmas's birthdays, like, it was very normal. We

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<v Speaker 2>all hung out, it was Yeah, it was just a

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<v Speaker 2>good vibe, like to go on a family holiday, like

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<v Speaker 2>there was no issues. We all stayed in the same cabin.

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<v Speaker 2>It was just we all got along. It was all jokey.

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<v Speaker 2>We liked him at that point.

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<v Speaker 1>So it sounds like there weren't any red flags, or

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<v Speaker 1>even if you look back in hindsight, were there any

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<v Speaker 1>kind of under.

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<v Speaker 2>The circace in the beginning of their relationship and even

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of years into it. I wouldn't say that

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<v Speaker 2>there were many red flags. Obviously we weren't in the relationship,

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<v Speaker 2>and we've come to know that when person control is

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<v Speaker 2>kind of involved in relationships, it's very easily hidden. It's

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<v Speaker 2>quite insidious. But from us looking in, there was no

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<v Speaker 2>red flags. The red flags came from the moment that

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<v Speaker 2>they ended up having a daughter together, and it seemed

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<v Speaker 2>to be a sense of jealousy, a sense of Katie

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't giving him the adequate time or attention, and I

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<v Speaker 2>would say that that's when the real red flag started

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<v Speaker 2>for us.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you explain how that jealousy grew because it seems,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, Katie's daughter was only ten months old when

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<v Speaker 1>she died, so it's a relatively short period of time.

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<v Speaker 1>How did this behavior escalate? What did that look like?

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<v Speaker 2>It started off really trivial, really little kind of just

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<v Speaker 2>jealousy things where it was just nagging her about the

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<v Speaker 2>time that she was not spending with him, or like

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<v Speaker 2>she was always tired. Just these little remarks or comments

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<v Speaker 2>about where she was spending her time, which anyone that

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<v Speaker 2>is apparent to a newborn knows that they are very

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<v Speaker 2>time consuming and any good parent spends that time with them.

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<v Speaker 2>Any good parent, like she also still had her six

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<v Speaker 2>year old son. He was going to school doing sports activities,

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<v Speaker 2>so she was run off her feet up until giving birth.

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<v Speaker 2>She was still working as a hairdresser twelve hour days,

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<v Speaker 2>so for her, it was it seemed just silly. It

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<v Speaker 2>just seemed like he wasn't understanding the gravity of being

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<v Speaker 2>a parent, and I guess obviously becoming a parent with

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<v Speaker 2>someone else, you also see their true colors. You see

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<v Speaker 2>them in a parenting capacity that wasn't co parenting where

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<v Speaker 2>you get to be the fun parent every odd weekend.

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<v Speaker 2>So it started off very innocent, just little remarks in that,

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<v Speaker 2>but it quickly grew to why aren't I your profile picture?

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<v Speaker 2>You're always are posting the kids. You never spent time

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<v Speaker 2>with me. He was complaining about intimacy, that she wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>being intimate with him. She's given birth, she's tired.

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<v Speaker 1>Two young kids, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>You know. She went back to work relatively quickly. I

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<v Speaker 2>believe Indy was three or four months when she went

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<v Speaker 2>back to work because she didn't want that burden of

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<v Speaker 2>finances to fall on Shane. So she was very much

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<v Speaker 2>wanting to be involved to give the kids the best

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<v Speaker 2>life so that they weren't struggling. And ultimately I ended

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<v Speaker 2>up getting her a job at my work, waitressing at

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<v Speaker 2>our local family bistro, because the money was better than

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<v Speaker 2>being a hairdresser and it meant less hours because in

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<v Speaker 2>addition to that, Katie also had a broken back from

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<v Speaker 2>a car accident when she was nineteen, and so she'd

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<v Speaker 2>done years of standing on her feet for twelve hour

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<v Speaker 2>days with a broken back. She'd gone through labor, she

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<v Speaker 2>carried children, all with the broken back. She was a

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<v Speaker 2>very resilient, strong woman, and I will forever admire her.

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<v Speaker 2>She is the motivation for whenever things feel too tough

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<v Speaker 2>or too hard for me. I'm like, but Katie could

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<v Speaker 2>do it, like Katie did it, So for her to

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<v Speaker 2>go back to work, I thought, this is better for you,

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<v Speaker 2>Like you can actually take those breaks. It's shorter, it's

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<v Speaker 2>in between school hours, like I could take shifts for her.

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<v Speaker 2>If she couldn't work, I could take the night shifts.

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<v Speaker 2>So I thought I was helping to make sure that

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<v Speaker 2>their relationship didn't suffer because she wanted to help him out.

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<v Speaker 2>And I thought, well, I'm doing a nice thing here

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<v Speaker 2>and she's working with me, so hopefully that alleviates some

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<v Speaker 2>of that behavior that he was starting to exhibit. But

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<v Speaker 2>it ultimately just escalated it far beyond what we could

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<v Speaker 2>have expected.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it kind of got to more, much more surveillance,

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<v Speaker 1>didn't it, So like a lot of checking in what

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<v Speaker 1>did that look like?

0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.800
<v Speaker 2>So for Katie, once we started working together, there was

0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.520
<v Speaker 2>this element of him needing to know where she was,

0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.679
<v Speaker 2>what she was doing at every second. And when I

0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.120
<v Speaker 2>say that I don't say that lightly. She was on

0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.640
<v Speaker 2>the phone from the moment she had to walk into work,

0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:43.280
<v Speaker 2>she would sign on, pop off the phone, and then

0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:45.880
<v Speaker 2>the moment that she finished her shift, she would sign

0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.760
<v Speaker 2>off and he would be calling. He would know instantly

0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.480
<v Speaker 2>if she hadn't called him to say that she was

0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.600
<v Speaker 2>finished her shift. And sometimes she wouldn't call him straight

0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:56.560
<v Speaker 2>away because we would stay back a little bit and

0:12:58.120 --> 0:12:59.559
<v Speaker 2>like she would come and talk to me about a

0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:02.560
<v Speaker 2>shift or we had something to discuss, or occasionally we

0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.559
<v Speaker 2>would stay back and just eat our lunch together because

0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.280
<v Speaker 2>my mom was minding her daughter at the time, which

0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:10.640
<v Speaker 2>Mum used to laugh at and go, oh, don't mind me,

0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm just babysitting. You know, you guys, enjoy your lunch.

0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.480
<v Speaker 2>But it was really nice to have that quality time

0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.320
<v Speaker 2>with my sister as well. But he would know, and

0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:21.160
<v Speaker 2>so that would be cut short because he would be

0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.200
<v Speaker 2>calling her. He would be harassing her. He would be

0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.960
<v Speaker 2>texting her going, I know you finished work, you know,

0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.160
<v Speaker 2>why haven't you called me? And it ultimately like just

0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:31.439
<v Speaker 2>kind of ruined it that we wouldn't do it anymore

0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:35.280
<v Speaker 2>because it was just he was just constantly at her

0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.679
<v Speaker 2>from the moment she finished work. Then escalated further into

0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.319
<v Speaker 2>him actually watching her from the car park opposite our work.

0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:46.520
<v Speaker 2>He would sit in the car and observe her at

0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.520
<v Speaker 2>work and how she would interact with customers or co workers,

0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.920
<v Speaker 2>and all the while my mom was minding their daughter,

0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.559
<v Speaker 2>who he was supposed to have gone and picked up.

0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.600
<v Speaker 2>He was too obsessed with what Katie was doing at work.

0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:02.720
<v Speaker 2>And obviously we only found all this out in hindsight,

0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.440
<v Speaker 2>like we only found this out after right what happened

0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:09.079
<v Speaker 2>to Katie, But knowing it, it makes a lot of sense,

0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.280
<v Speaker 2>given we knew how persistently he was calling her, how

0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.000
<v Speaker 2>much he was trying to dictate how she used social media,

0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.080
<v Speaker 2>who she was posting, who she could talk to. It

0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:24.120
<v Speaker 2>was psychotic, to be frank, like, the behavior was just

0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:26.440
<v Speaker 2>completely something we've never dealt with, and we kept putting

0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.640
<v Speaker 2>it down to jealousy, which is like, he is ridiculous,

0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.480
<v Speaker 2>He is so immature, Like that was kind of the

0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.560
<v Speaker 2>behavior because Katie was handling it, and she didn't seem

0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:35.520
<v Speaker 2>overly concerned.

0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.200
<v Speaker 1>She was just like, he's ridiculous, right, So she wasn't

0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.520
<v Speaker 1>kind of scared by the behavior. She was kind of

0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:41.760
<v Speaker 1>biting back a bit as well.

0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, so she wasn't Like Katie is not one

0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.840
<v Speaker 2>to shy away from conflict. As I grew up with her,

0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.440
<v Speaker 2>specific I know she's not. She wasn't one to back

0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.960
<v Speaker 2>down and neither was I. So any behavior that she

0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.320
<v Speaker 2>didn't agree with, like she would call it out or

0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:56.720
<v Speaker 2>she would say like I'm sick of this. She would

0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.400
<v Speaker 2>hang up on him, like she wouldn't just jump at

0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.840
<v Speaker 2>his call. But you could see that it was consistently calling,

0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.240
<v Speaker 2>and because she had that setting on her phone where

0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:07.920
<v Speaker 2>it was light up every time she was getting like

0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.200
<v Speaker 2>a text or a call, the flash would light up,

0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:13.640
<v Speaker 2>we always knew, like if she was on her phone

0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.360
<v Speaker 2>if he was calling her or texting her. Well, that's

0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.360
<v Speaker 2>how I personally knew, without her telling me. Yep. It

0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.000
<v Speaker 2>even escalated to the point where my best friend who

0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:25.240
<v Speaker 2>we worked with, he had just moved over from Tasmania,

0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.880
<v Speaker 2>so he hadn't made a lot of friends, and we

0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:29.880
<v Speaker 2>were hanging out quite a lot, which meant Katie was

0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.600
<v Speaker 2>around him because he was coming to our house, you know,

0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:35.320
<v Speaker 2>hanging out, and Katie would be there to pick up

0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:37.440
<v Speaker 2>the kids or drop the kids off. So it was

0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.640
<v Speaker 2>all just we were all just friends, basically co workers.

0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.160
<v Speaker 2>He didn't like that, and he actually contacted my friend

0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:48.320
<v Speaker 2>and basically said, like, stop talking to my partner. You're

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.600
<v Speaker 2>causing issues in our relationship. All these things, which we

0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.800
<v Speaker 2>told Katie, and Katie addressed that with Shane head on

0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:57.320
<v Speaker 2>and was like, that's not okay. And it all stemmed

0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.200
<v Speaker 2>from the fact that his car had broke down one

0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.360
<v Speaker 2>day they were both heading to the same direction. She

0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.400
<v Speaker 2>had India in the car. I believe she had Aiden

0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.560
<v Speaker 2>in the car as well, and she dropped him home

0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:14.160
<v Speaker 2>and he felt that that was not acceptable and spiraled

0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.640
<v Speaker 2>from there and to the point that he created a

0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:21.280
<v Speaker 2>fake Facebook page pretending to be a female to message

0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.080
<v Speaker 2>our friend to try and get intel on Katie. It

0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.240
<v Speaker 2>was kind of like probing and prompting to be like, oh,

0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.240
<v Speaker 2>it's okay, you can tell me if there's any hot

0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.960
<v Speaker 2>girls that you're work, you know, any girls that you like,

0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.640
<v Speaker 2>all these sorts of things, and my friend knew instantly

0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:39.080
<v Speaker 2>it was him, So we told Katie, and Katie addressed

0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.560
<v Speaker 2>it with Shane. She went, I know you've created this

0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:45.800
<v Speaker 2>fake profile, Like you're ridiculous, This is not okay. Don't

0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:47.560
<v Speaker 2>do it. Like cut it out, and they had a

0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.560
<v Speaker 2>full blown conversation about it where he even then messaged

0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.000
<v Speaker 2>me and was like, you know, even when I get

0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.840
<v Speaker 2>bad advice, like I shouldn't be behaving like this, all

0:16:55.880 --> 0:17:00.440
<v Speaker 2>these kind of acknowledgments of he didn't deny it. We

0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.560
<v Speaker 2>never denied that he did it. He knew that he

0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:03.400
<v Speaker 2>got caught, and.

0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:05.000
<v Speaker 1>He knew what was wrong. By the sounds of it.

0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, he and he even like to the extent

0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.919
<v Speaker 2>he used that same profile to flirt with his male

0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:15.080
<v Speaker 2>profile to make Katie jealous.

0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:19.439
<v Speaker 1>It's just wild to see, like the person you met

0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:21.240
<v Speaker 1>changed that much.

0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.600
<v Speaker 2>It was a very it felt like a very drastic change.

0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.199
<v Speaker 2>But something that I've realized is that that is the

0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.199
<v Speaker 2>person they always are, that is always underlying. They're just

0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:34.280
<v Speaker 2>very good at presenting themselves in a certain way until

0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.800
<v Speaker 2>someone is trapped and then they can't get out. So

0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.800
<v Speaker 2>it seemed very sudden to us. It seemed to be

0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.280
<v Speaker 2>the escalation of them having a child together. But we

0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.520
<v Speaker 2>believe that this behavior was ongoing throughout their relationship, and

0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.359
<v Speaker 2>whether or not Katie saw it for what it was

0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:54.280
<v Speaker 2>and hadn't told us, or it was just very subtle

0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:56.879
<v Speaker 2>that you don't even realize that it was building up

0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:57.760
<v Speaker 2>to that point.

0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:00.919
<v Speaker 1>Or to label the behavior to be clear, this is

0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.920
<v Speaker 1>coercive control what we're talking about. Some of the other

0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.040
<v Speaker 1>behaviors that go hand in hand with this are things

0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:10.080
<v Speaker 1>like isolation and gas lighting and financial abuse. Did any

0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:12.600
<v Speaker 1>of those kind of play into their relationship that you

0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:13.080
<v Speaker 1>knew of?

0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely. So there was quite a bit of gas lighting,

0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:20.440
<v Speaker 2>just on every kind of topic. I can't even pinpoint.

0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.960
<v Speaker 2>It was just that consistent, making her feel crazy, making

0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:27.199
<v Speaker 2>her feel like things weren't as they seem, even to

0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.920
<v Speaker 2>the point like he was supposed to be at work

0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:32.280
<v Speaker 2>one day he bumped into her at the same shopping

0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.359
<v Speaker 2>center she was at with my nana, and he was

0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:37.440
<v Speaker 2>just like, oh, this is such a coincidence. And when

0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.560
<v Speaker 2>she was like, this isn't a coincidence, like you were

0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:41.480
<v Speaker 2>meant to be over the other side of town, he

0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:43.679
<v Speaker 2>gaslit her and he was like, nope, it's you know,

0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.360
<v Speaker 2>made her feel crazy for thinking that she was being

0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:52.679
<v Speaker 2>observed monitored. Followed essentially the financial abuse of it was

0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.439
<v Speaker 2>a very simple thing that I feel a lot of

0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:59.200
<v Speaker 2>people wouldn't even realize is financial abuse. He wouldn't give

0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.840
<v Speaker 2>her money to get fuel.

0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:04.440
<v Speaker 1>Which is transport.

0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.760
<v Speaker 2>We would be out of fuel, which meant she then

0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.400
<v Speaker 2>couldn't go anywhere. So my parents would pay to put

0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:13.480
<v Speaker 2>fuel in her car because she would be left without fuel.

0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.560
<v Speaker 2>And anyone with kids knows how hard it is as

0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:17.840
<v Speaker 2>well to go and get fuel, get the kids out,

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.320
<v Speaker 2>then get them back in the car. The logistics of

0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.000
<v Speaker 2>it just made it so much harder for her. So

0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:24.960
<v Speaker 2>my parents would step in and when we were all

0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.639
<v Speaker 2>out together, we'd get the fuel with her cut. But

0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.639
<v Speaker 2>it's a way of which you wouldn't necessarily deem it

0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.800
<v Speaker 2>looking at it in isolation, but when it's a repeated behavior.

0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:37.919
<v Speaker 2>It was his attempt at making sure that she couldn't

0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:39.679
<v Speaker 2>go anywhere, that she couldn't go to work, that she

0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.359
<v Speaker 2>couldn't go to the shops, or that she was becoming

0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:45.159
<v Speaker 2>a burden for someone else. And Katie was very independent,

0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:50.040
<v Speaker 2>she was very strong headed, very you know, mature and

0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.440
<v Speaker 2>grown up, and she didn't want to rely on her parents.

0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.520
<v Speaker 2>So for someone like that, this was the ultimate way

0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:58.080
<v Speaker 2>to make them retreat back in and to not let

0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:00.879
<v Speaker 2>on what was going on, but also to then not

0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:03.040
<v Speaker 2>want to ask the help, if that makes sense.

0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, had it progressed to physical violence that you know

0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:08.520
<v Speaker 1>of before, Not that.

0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:11.520
<v Speaker 2>We're aware of, obviously we have our suspicions, but the

0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:15.639
<v Speaker 2>first documented instance of physical violence in their relationship was

0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:17.879
<v Speaker 2>the night that he murdered her. And that is the

0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:22.400
<v Speaker 2>scariest thing about coursive control is that the most coursive

0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.159
<v Speaker 2>control cases there is no documented violence. That's not to

0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.960
<v Speaker 2>say that there isn't violence, but there isn't any documented

0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.639
<v Speaker 2>So the first documented instance is often lethal.

0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.920
<v Speaker 1>And that's why it's so hard for a court system

0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:39.840
<v Speaker 1>or just a system to kind of look at an

0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:44.639
<v Speaker 1>instance like Katie's story with this kind of coercive control,

0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:48.080
<v Speaker 1>because even though it's so serious, there's nothing physical.

0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:51.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's nothing physical. So then they say, well, you know,

0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:54.560
<v Speaker 2>it's not like this was repeated behavior. You know it

0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.399
<v Speaker 2>was you know, he's not a threat to the community,

0:20:57.480 --> 0:20:59.880
<v Speaker 2>he's not a threat to society because he's only exhibited

0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:03.720
<v Speaker 2>this one display of violence. And in my opinion, that's

0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.640
<v Speaker 2>the scariest thing because of what made them snap like that,

0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.080
<v Speaker 2>what made them go from zero to one hundred, what

0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:15.240
<v Speaker 2>made them go from basically controlling someone to using excessive

0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:18.720
<v Speaker 2>force to take someone's life, to me, you can't deem

0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:21.680
<v Speaker 2>them safe for community. You can't deem them and at

0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:24.280
<v Speaker 2>most they are definitely not safe for their next partner

0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:26.800
<v Speaker 2>when they come out and that person is a part

0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.200
<v Speaker 2>of the community. So there is no system in place

0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:32.880
<v Speaker 2>in our court system. There's no system in place in

0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:38.240
<v Speaker 2>the way we approach coercive control to show the seriousness

0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:39.880
<v Speaker 2>of it, even when documented.

0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:42.399
<v Speaker 1>Can you tell us about the kind of week leading

0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:46.360
<v Speaker 1>up to Katie's murder? Had you had she spoken about

0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:48.199
<v Speaker 1>wanting to leave him? Did you know that that was

0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:49.400
<v Speaker 1>perhaps on the cards?

0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:53.320
<v Speaker 2>I did. Katie and I obviously got really close when

0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.560
<v Speaker 2>we started working together. We'd only been working together for

0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.240
<v Speaker 2>about seven months. But I would definitely say that we

0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:00.920
<v Speaker 2>were friends at this point. We were sisters, we were friends.

0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:04.159
<v Speaker 2>We were confiding in each other to an extent. We

0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.560
<v Speaker 2>were both comparing relationships that we were in at the

0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:10.800
<v Speaker 2>time that were less than ideal. Obviously I didn't know

0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.440
<v Speaker 2>the extent of Katie's, she didn't know the extent of mine.

0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:16.240
<v Speaker 2>But we would compare them and say, like, who had

0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:18.840
<v Speaker 2>the worst day or whose partner was being you know,

0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.159
<v Speaker 2>the worst that day. But again, we were saying to

0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.040
<v Speaker 2>each other that we should leave our relationships. So I

0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:27.040
<v Speaker 2>was saying to her, you need to leave, like he

0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:30.159
<v Speaker 2>doesn't treat you well, you need to leave. She was

0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:32.320
<v Speaker 2>saying to me, you need to leave, like he's not

0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:34.280
<v Speaker 2>treating you. So we could see it for each other

0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:37.400
<v Speaker 2>that we deserved more in relationships and that the way

0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:42.240
<v Speaker 2>we like what was happening wasn't okay. Katies was obviously

0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:46.760
<v Speaker 2>a completely different situation, but being twenty at the time,

0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:51.400
<v Speaker 2>we were just comparing name calling or behaviors that Shane

0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:56.879
<v Speaker 2>was doing, and it literally just kept escalating in that

0:22:57.000 --> 0:23:01.160
<v Speaker 2>last week. That last week, it just got worse and worse,

0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:03.000
<v Speaker 2>and the conversations with Kay was like She's like, I

0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:06.199
<v Speaker 2>have to leave. I can't keep doing this. Right, it

0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:08.440
<v Speaker 2>was always that I can't keep doing this. But then

0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:10.440
<v Speaker 2>also at the same time, she didn't want to fail

0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:14.240
<v Speaker 2>again because in her eyes, she had failed by having

0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.400
<v Speaker 2>a relationship with her son's father and not working out,

0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:19.080
<v Speaker 2>so she didn't want to have to do that again.

0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:20.400
<v Speaker 2>She didn't want to have to go through the court

0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:24.960
<v Speaker 2>processes for parenting plans and things like that. So she

0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:28.000
<v Speaker 2>really stuck at it for a lot longer than she

0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:31.359
<v Speaker 2>ever should have because she really wanted to give her

0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.399
<v Speaker 2>children that family unit that we grew up with, and

0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:38.720
<v Speaker 2>I think she definitely felt ashamed that she couldn't achieve that.

0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:42.680
<v Speaker 2>And there's also that element of we have such wonderful

0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:47.080
<v Speaker 2>parents and their relationship is no joke, not perfect, but

0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:50.760
<v Speaker 2>it is the ultimate goal. The compassion and kindness that

0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:52.840
<v Speaker 2>they show each other, the grace that they show each

0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:57.040
<v Speaker 2>other when they're not doing well, is something that we

0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:01.800
<v Speaker 2>aspire to have in our relationships. And your child, to

0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:05.760
<v Speaker 2>them be in a relationship where they're not accepting that

0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:09.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of love, they're actually accepting something far less and

0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:12.800
<v Speaker 2>something that they don't deserve, that's crushing to a parent.

0:24:13.160 --> 0:24:15.919
<v Speaker 2>So to come out and say that your parents are

0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:17.520
<v Speaker 2>going to wonder, well, where did we go wrong? You

0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:21.280
<v Speaker 2>don't see us behaving like that. And so for Katie

0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:23.640
<v Speaker 2>it was I believe it was very much a sense

0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:25.960
<v Speaker 2>of shame that she just wanted to be a mature

0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:29.240
<v Speaker 2>adult and handle it herself, and it went far beyond

0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:31.040
<v Speaker 2>the length of time that it should have.

0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:36.320
<v Speaker 1>Up next, Bianca speaks about Katie's last day alive. I

0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:39.359
<v Speaker 1>want to talk a bit about Friday March nights. As

0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:41.520
<v Speaker 1>much as you feel comfortable because it was a pretty

0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:44.560
<v Speaker 1>busy day, wasn't it. Katie had a lot going on.

0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:46.719
<v Speaker 1>You saw her, your parents saw her. Can you take

0:24:46.800 --> 0:24:50.560
<v Speaker 1>us through what the day looked like? So March ninth

0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:55.720
<v Speaker 1>was it was just a regular day. Honestly, I had

0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:58.760
<v Speaker 1>just gone back to UNI. I was studying criminology and

0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:03.480
<v Speaker 1>psychological science. I was in my second year at that point.

0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:08.760
<v Speaker 2>And I was meant to go to UNI, so I

0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:10.760
<v Speaker 2>needed to get out of my shift, so my sister

0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:14.199
<v Speaker 2>took my shift for me. I ultimately didn't end up

0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:17.840
<v Speaker 2>going to UNI because I was slack and wanted to stay.

0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:19.439
<v Speaker 2>It was a nice it was a nice day, it

0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:21.000
<v Speaker 2>was nice weather. I wanted to go to the pool

0:25:21.000 --> 0:25:25.399
<v Speaker 2>with my niece, which I regret deeply making Katie have

0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:27.920
<v Speaker 2>that shift for me. We ended up going to the pool.

0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:30.560
<v Speaker 2>We took Indie to the pool. It was a great day.

0:25:30.600 --> 0:25:33.600
<v Speaker 2>She loved being in the water. We also had Aiden

0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:37.680
<v Speaker 2>home from school, so we took him and we were

0:25:37.720 --> 0:25:40.520
<v Speaker 2>all just hanging out, and my mum even commented, this

0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:43.720
<v Speaker 2>is the best day ever, because it obviously was like

0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:46.640
<v Speaker 2>it was just such a good day. We were having

0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:49.639
<v Speaker 2>so much fun. Katie was at work and then she

0:25:50.080 --> 0:25:55.160
<v Speaker 2>finished her shift a bit like earlier, my nephew had

0:25:55.240 --> 0:25:58.119
<v Speaker 2>handover with his dad, so my dad was handling that

0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:02.800
<v Speaker 2>just a few blocks away, and I like, ironically enough,

0:26:02.880 --> 0:26:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Katie finished with enough time to drive their say goodbye

0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:10.399
<v Speaker 2>to Aiden and they I'll see you on Monday, which

0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:13.199
<v Speaker 2>originally my dad was like, why are you here, Like

0:26:13.240 --> 0:26:15.760
<v Speaker 2>it's just going to cause issues. You've told him that

0:26:15.880 --> 0:26:18.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing the hand you know, initially in that moment

0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:20.320
<v Speaker 2>you're kind of like, oh, you're just going to cause drama.

0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:23.600
<v Speaker 2>In hindsight, we are so grateful that she made it

0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:25.240
<v Speaker 2>to give him a hug and a kiss and to

0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:27.359
<v Speaker 2>say goodbye and to see him for the last time.

0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:31.560
<v Speaker 2>Then my sister went back home. My dad needed a haircut,

0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:34.640
<v Speaker 2>so she gave my dad a haircut, which my dad

0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:38.280
<v Speaker 2>now looks at in hindsight that it was his haircut

0:26:38.320 --> 0:26:43.520
<v Speaker 2>for her funeral. And I was just studying and I

0:26:43.600 --> 0:26:46.320
<v Speaker 2>was getting annoyed by all the noise in the house

0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:49.320
<v Speaker 2>because she was arguing with Shane on the phone and

0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:51.560
<v Speaker 2>they were going back and forth that he wanted her

0:26:51.600 --> 0:26:55.160
<v Speaker 2>to come home. She said, I can't, I'm cutting dad's hair.

0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:58.679
<v Speaker 2>I'll be home soon. He just kept harassing her, like

0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:00.719
<v Speaker 2>you never want to spend time with me, you know,

0:27:00.800 --> 0:27:05.800
<v Speaker 2>please come home, like just he was just ridiculous that day,

0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:09.200
<v Speaker 2>beyond ridiculous, and I could hear her in the front

0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:12.080
<v Speaker 2>round droom saying like this is ridiculous. I can't keep

0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:15.280
<v Speaker 2>doing this, Like I'm done. She just constantly said I'm done.

0:27:15.320 --> 0:27:18.800
<v Speaker 2>And I'd heard it so many times because she deactivated

0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:20.800
<v Speaker 2>Facebook because of how often he was trying to get

0:27:20.840 --> 0:27:23.159
<v Speaker 2>into a social media how often he would block her

0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:26.280
<v Speaker 2>out of her phone, So like that I'm done comment

0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:29.159
<v Speaker 2>was something that I'd heard a lot, but I didn't

0:27:29.200 --> 0:27:32.160
<v Speaker 2>realize that this time was going to be that I'm

0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:35.359
<v Speaker 2>done moment. I ended up being a brad each twenty

0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:36.960
<v Speaker 2>year old. I was like, oh, it's too noisy, I

0:27:37.000 --> 0:27:39.760
<v Speaker 2>can't study, and I ended up leaving to go to

0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:41.959
<v Speaker 2>the park to meet up with a friend to study.

0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:44.679
<v Speaker 2>I didn't study, so I was just being dramatic at

0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:49.040
<v Speaker 2>the time. And as I was driving back home, I

0:27:49.040 --> 0:27:51.400
<v Speaker 2>saw my sister driving out of our street. She gave

0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:53.960
<v Speaker 2>me her signature to honks, and that is the last

0:27:54.000 --> 0:27:59.880
<v Speaker 2>time I ever saw her. We then proceeded to go

0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:03.600
<v Speaker 2>down into Melbourne because Mom and I were going to

0:28:03.640 --> 0:28:05.680
<v Speaker 2>be Ed cheering concert the next day. We were really

0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:07.960
<v Speaker 2>really excited, so I went to the pop up shop.

0:28:08.240 --> 0:28:12.000
<v Speaker 2>We got merchandise, and then Dad, mom and I went

0:28:12.040 --> 0:28:15.399
<v Speaker 2>out for dinner. It was a really good night, like

0:28:16.680 --> 0:28:18.880
<v Speaker 2>it was. I was just so excited. It was such

0:28:18.880 --> 0:28:21.800
<v Speaker 2>a good night. And as we were driving back past

0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:25.760
<v Speaker 2>Digger's Breast, I can't remember who if it was my

0:28:25.840 --> 0:28:27.480
<v Speaker 2>mum and my dad, but one of them got a

0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:31.960
<v Speaker 2>really sick feeling and just came over really unwell. At

0:28:31.960 --> 0:28:33.600
<v Speaker 2>the time that we were like, oh, should we pop

0:28:33.600 --> 0:28:38.720
<v Speaker 2>in and see Katie. Ultimately we didn't because whichever parent

0:28:38.760 --> 0:28:41.440
<v Speaker 2>it was wasn't feeling well, so we went home. It

0:28:41.600 --> 0:28:48.640
<v Speaker 2>wasn't until I believe two in the morning that we

0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:52.080
<v Speaker 2>found out that Katie had been murdered via social media.

0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:57.920
<v Speaker 2>A bit of context of how it all came about. Katie.

0:28:58.240 --> 0:29:00.480
<v Speaker 2>When she got home, her in Shane went out for

0:29:00.520 --> 0:29:04.880
<v Speaker 2>dinner with Indy and Aidan was with his dad obviously,

0:29:04.920 --> 0:29:06.800
<v Speaker 2>so he wasn't home, so they just went out for dinner.

0:29:06.920 --> 0:29:09.920
<v Speaker 2>They had dinner, they came home. I know that they

0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:13.480
<v Speaker 2>had an argument about social media again about the work

0:29:13.520 --> 0:29:17.320
<v Speaker 2>group chat about Katie not giving him enough time all

0:29:17.360 --> 0:29:21.400
<v Speaker 2>these things. I know that she had said she was done.

0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:23.800
<v Speaker 2>She started packing a bag. She said she was going

0:29:23.840 --> 0:29:27.720
<v Speaker 2>to go to my mum's. She actually did leave the

0:29:27.800 --> 0:29:32.160
<v Speaker 2>house that night and started driving. She only returned because

0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:34.800
<v Speaker 2>Indy was asleep in her bed and she didn't want

0:29:34.800 --> 0:29:37.840
<v Speaker 2>to leave Indy. So then she went to her son's

0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:40.800
<v Speaker 2>bed and sat on the son on her son's bed.

0:29:42.240 --> 0:29:44.440
<v Speaker 2>And obviously the police reports and everything told us that

0:29:44.480 --> 0:29:46.440
<v Speaker 2>the neighbors had heard arguing. There was a lot of

0:29:46.480 --> 0:29:49.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, biting. All the neighbors had documented hearing it

0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:55.360
<v Speaker 2>for hours at that point. At around just after ten,

0:29:56.200 --> 0:30:01.280
<v Speaker 2>Shane texted his mum and said, she's leaving me. She's

0:30:01.360 --> 0:30:03.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, she's breaking up the family. She's leaving me.

0:30:03.880 --> 0:30:06.800
<v Speaker 2>His mom texted back saying whatever she said to him,

0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:10.760
<v Speaker 2>and then he said, hang on, she's back. I'll talk

0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:13.560
<v Speaker 2>to you soon, and his mom texted and said, don't

0:30:13.640 --> 0:30:18.480
<v Speaker 2>do anything stupid. Twenty minutes after that, he texted his

0:30:18.560 --> 0:30:20.719
<v Speaker 2>mom and said, I've done it. I've bashed her brains

0:30:20.760 --> 0:30:24.160
<v Speaker 2>in There are brains everywhere. So in that twenty minute period,

0:30:25.240 --> 0:30:30.640
<v Speaker 2>Jane grabbed a dumb bellbar walked into my nephew's bedroom,

0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:35.520
<v Speaker 2>where my sister was sitting on his bed and repeatedly

0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:40.240
<v Speaker 2>struck her across the face and head, whilst their ten

0:30:40.280 --> 0:30:43.400
<v Speaker 2>months old daughter was in the room next door. It's

0:30:44.280 --> 0:30:50.400
<v Speaker 2>a vision that haunts me. I will never understand how

0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:53.239
<v Speaker 2>someone can hurt someone because they don't want to be

0:30:53.280 --> 0:30:56.680
<v Speaker 2>in a relationship with you anymore, especially when you are

0:30:56.720 --> 0:30:59.160
<v Speaker 2>the reason they don't want to be in that relationship

0:30:59.160 --> 0:31:02.880
<v Speaker 2>and they gave it there. She was defenseless, she was

0:31:02.920 --> 0:31:06.040
<v Speaker 2>sitting on the bed. She weighed forty two kilos at

0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:08.800
<v Speaker 2>the time of her death. I would say she was scared,

0:31:09.160 --> 0:31:11.480
<v Speaker 2>But I truly know my sister, and I know that

0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:14.000
<v Speaker 2>when they said they had an exchange before he did it,

0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:18.400
<v Speaker 2>I know for a fact that if she saw that weapon,

0:31:18.800 --> 0:31:21.120
<v Speaker 2>which it's speculation that she would have seen it because

0:31:21.120 --> 0:31:24.440
<v Speaker 2>he held it behind his back, I have no doubt

0:31:24.560 --> 0:31:26.640
<v Speaker 2>that he would have. He did say to her that

0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:28.880
<v Speaker 2>he was going to use it on himself, and then

0:31:29.000 --> 0:31:31.720
<v Speaker 2>I have no doubt that she would have been go on,

0:31:32.000 --> 0:31:34.480
<v Speaker 2>go on, do it, because that is the attitude of

0:31:34.480 --> 0:31:37.360
<v Speaker 2>my sister. Yeah, I truly don't believe that she thought

0:31:37.400 --> 0:31:41.239
<v Speaker 2>he was capable of killing her, because she would not

0:31:41.280 --> 0:31:42.440
<v Speaker 2>have gone back to that house.

0:31:42.720 --> 0:31:45.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm so sorry, Bianca, It's just it's horrific.

0:31:45.880 --> 0:31:48.680
<v Speaker 2>It's yeah, it's not something that we ever thought would

0:31:48.680 --> 0:31:53.360
<v Speaker 2>happen to our family. We that night found out via

0:31:53.800 --> 0:31:58.000
<v Speaker 2>a social media post from Victoria Police. The local community

0:31:58.040 --> 0:31:59.960
<v Speaker 2>page had been going off for a few hours saying

0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:03.360
<v Speaker 2>that what's going on in summary, there's police helicopters, there's

0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:06.280
<v Speaker 2>police on foot, there's dog squad, like, what's going on.

0:32:07.280 --> 0:32:09.800
<v Speaker 2>Earlier in the evening, my dad had got a phone

0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:12.760
<v Speaker 2>call from Kiden Police saying that they were looking for

0:32:12.840 --> 0:32:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Shane's ex partner, who's the mother of his children, and

0:32:16.960 --> 0:32:19.800
<v Speaker 2>that the address listed was our house. My dad said, no,

0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:24.240
<v Speaker 2>that's incorrect. We built this house. They said, okay, we're

0:32:24.280 --> 0:32:26.640
<v Speaker 2>just trying to locate her. Dad said, I know who

0:32:26.680 --> 0:32:31.520
<v Speaker 2>you're talking about. That's my daughter's partner's ex partner. If

0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:35.080
<v Speaker 2>there's anything like any concern, like, we can try and assist,

0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:37.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, And they said no, no, all good. And

0:32:37.400 --> 0:32:39.800
<v Speaker 2>Dad took their details because he thought that was really odd.

0:32:40.320 --> 0:32:42.320
<v Speaker 2>And at this point we were thinking something really bad

0:32:42.320 --> 0:32:43.920
<v Speaker 2>had happened to her.

0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:47.200
<v Speaker 1>Because it's midnight, so you're all up at midnight going

0:32:47.240 --> 0:32:48.440
<v Speaker 1>what's going on?

0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:51.120
<v Speaker 2>So my brother was asleep. Dad was actually woken up

0:32:51.120 --> 0:32:53.760
<v Speaker 2>by the phone call. So my mum and I were

0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:58.200
<v Speaker 2>texting on our phones because we don't sleep. We struggled

0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:01.560
<v Speaker 2>to sleep and we were watching what was unfolding on

0:33:01.680 --> 0:33:05.080
<v Speaker 2>the local new our local community page. We were like, oh, like,

0:33:05.120 --> 0:33:07.800
<v Speaker 2>I have a text exchange with my mum saying like

0:33:07.840 --> 0:33:10.280
<v Speaker 2>I want to know what's happening, like it's so bizarre.

0:33:10.320 --> 0:33:12.280
<v Speaker 2>And then she was trying to get in touch with

0:33:12.360 --> 0:33:15.040
<v Speaker 2>Katie and she wasn't answering, and I'm like, really weird

0:33:15.120 --> 0:33:18.960
<v Speaker 2>that Katie's not answering, And we put it down to

0:33:18.960 --> 0:33:21.040
<v Speaker 2>the fact that Shane would often lock her out of

0:33:21.080 --> 0:33:23.360
<v Speaker 2>her phone, or she wasn't allowed to have her phone

0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:25.640
<v Speaker 2>with her, or she would just choose not to because

0:33:25.960 --> 0:33:28.920
<v Speaker 2>it was easier than dealing with Shane cracking up about

0:33:29.280 --> 0:33:31.400
<v Speaker 2>her being on her phone. So we just kind of

0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:34.280
<v Speaker 2>went very weird. We ultimately went to well, I went

0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:38.520
<v Speaker 2>to sleep. I'd just fallen asleep when my mum came

0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:42.040
<v Speaker 2>and slammed into my room and was like, he's murdered her,

0:33:42.320 --> 0:33:45.200
<v Speaker 2>He's killed her. And I then went on my phone

0:33:45.280 --> 0:33:48.040
<v Speaker 2>because I was very confused, and I saw the post

0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:50.320
<v Speaker 2>from Victoria Police that said a twenty nine year old

0:33:50.320 --> 0:33:54.240
<v Speaker 2>woman has been located deceased in Digger's rest. They actually

0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:57.840
<v Speaker 2>listed the street, which is very uncommon to actually liss

0:33:57.840 --> 0:33:59.680
<v Speaker 2>the street before they were even notified family.

0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:01.960
<v Speaker 1>So that's how you knew because it was her age,

0:34:02.000 --> 0:34:03.840
<v Speaker 1>her street, her street, and.

0:34:03.960 --> 0:34:07.840
<v Speaker 2>The twenty eight year old man was in custody assisting police. Obviously,

0:34:07.880 --> 0:34:10.520
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out,

0:34:11.080 --> 0:34:13.200
<v Speaker 2>especially as we couldn't get in touch with her. My

0:34:13.280 --> 0:34:16.040
<v Speaker 2>brother then got woken up. Dad tried to call the

0:34:16.040 --> 0:34:18.759
<v Speaker 2>police and he's like, hey, like, I have concerns for

0:34:18.840 --> 0:34:21.680
<v Speaker 2>my daughter. I think it's my daughter. They were like,

0:34:21.719 --> 0:34:24.560
<v Speaker 2>we can't tell you anything. So we all jumped in

0:34:24.600 --> 0:34:26.760
<v Speaker 2>the car and Dad drove us down to the crime

0:34:26.760 --> 0:34:29.680
<v Speaker 2>scene and that's how we got the confirmation.

0:34:30.560 --> 0:34:34.399
<v Speaker 1>Do you know now why they didn't tell you? How

0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:36.880
<v Speaker 1>you why you had to find out from a press release.

0:34:37.360 --> 0:34:40.000
<v Speaker 2>Dad kind of went back and forth with them about this.

0:34:40.120 --> 0:34:42.120
<v Speaker 2>We were kind of like, this isn't the protocol. Like

0:34:42.200 --> 0:34:44.759
<v Speaker 2>I studied criminology, I was like, this is not how

0:34:44.760 --> 0:34:46.880
<v Speaker 2>it's meant to happen, Like, you know, you tell us

0:34:46.920 --> 0:34:50.120
<v Speaker 2>how it happens and a lot of what we've experienced

0:34:50.160 --> 0:34:52.840
<v Speaker 2>in the years since is not what is, you know,

0:34:52.960 --> 0:34:56.919
<v Speaker 2>textbook of what's supposed to happen. I truly don't know why,

0:34:56.960 --> 0:34:59.200
<v Speaker 2>but we weren't going to wait, so we drove down.

0:35:00.040 --> 0:35:03.720
<v Speaker 2>I recall thinking, and I know this is so horrible

0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:05.720
<v Speaker 2>and I hate repeating it, but it was the mindset

0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:08.359
<v Speaker 2>I was in at the time, hoping that it was

0:35:08.840 --> 0:35:11.240
<v Speaker 2>his ex partner, hoping it was someone else, not Katie.

0:35:11.239 --> 0:35:12.879
<v Speaker 2>I was like, please don't be Katie, Please don't be Katy.

0:35:13.239 --> 0:35:15.399
<v Speaker 2>I remember we pulled into the street. We could only

0:35:15.440 --> 0:35:17.799
<v Speaker 2>get probably not even halfway down the street because it

0:35:17.800 --> 0:35:20.399
<v Speaker 2>had been taped off. Her house was completely lit up,

0:35:20.760 --> 0:35:24.840
<v Speaker 2>police cars, crime scene cars, everything, And I just remember

0:35:25.320 --> 0:35:27.319
<v Speaker 2>hopping out before Dad had even stopped the car and

0:35:27.400 --> 0:35:30.880
<v Speaker 2>running to the tape. I remember my dad falling to

0:35:30.880 --> 0:35:32.720
<v Speaker 2>his knees in the middle of the street and looking

0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:35.719
<v Speaker 2>up in the sky like he was looking to the

0:35:35.760 --> 0:35:39.480
<v Speaker 2>heavens like he was. And I just remember my mom's

0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:42.680
<v Speaker 2>ear piercing screams, and she ended up getting put in

0:35:42.719 --> 0:35:44.560
<v Speaker 2>the back of the car like just to sit and

0:35:44.640 --> 0:35:48.840
<v Speaker 2>like and my little brother, who I always say was

0:35:48.880 --> 0:35:50.600
<v Speaker 2>made to grow up, wait beyond his years. That night,

0:35:50.640 --> 0:35:55.040
<v Speaker 2>he was just eighteen, talking to the police and the

0:35:55.080 --> 0:35:59.080
<v Speaker 2>detectives and trying to get an understanding of what had happened,

0:36:00.040 --> 0:36:02.520
<v Speaker 2>And even while we were there, ABC rocked up, so

0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:05.720
<v Speaker 2>ABC were aware of it before the family were aware

0:36:05.719 --> 0:36:07.719
<v Speaker 2>of it, and they rocked up at the scene, which

0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:11.279
<v Speaker 2>was just ridiculous to me, and then snapped out of

0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:16.000
<v Speaker 2>it and my parents were like, well, whar's Indie? Wear's

0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:18.359
<v Speaker 2>indyed like, we can't do anything for our daughter wears

0:36:18.400 --> 0:36:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Indie And we found out that he had actually left

0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:24.319
<v Speaker 2>the premises in my sister's car with India on his

0:36:24.480 --> 0:36:26.600
<v Speaker 2>lap and drove to his parents' house.

0:36:27.280 --> 0:36:31.000
<v Speaker 1>The next few hours was that just about getting Indie back?

0:36:31.200 --> 0:36:32.400
<v Speaker 1>Is that what the focus was?

0:36:32.880 --> 0:36:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, one hundred percent. So the next few hours was

0:36:35.400 --> 0:36:38.600
<v Speaker 2>spent fighting with them, saying like, we want Indie back,

0:36:38.719 --> 0:36:42.799
<v Speaker 2>like she is with us. Primarily she doesn't really know

0:36:42.880 --> 0:36:44.600
<v Speaker 2>these people that don't really because there was a bit

0:36:44.600 --> 0:36:48.480
<v Speaker 2>of animosity between Katie and his family, and a lot

0:36:48.480 --> 0:36:50.480
<v Speaker 2>of it is what led to this kind of becoming

0:36:50.560 --> 0:36:53.000
<v Speaker 2>as big as it did with Shane and not being

0:36:53.800 --> 0:36:56.360
<v Speaker 2>told boundaries and Dad's like no, and it was basically

0:36:56.440 --> 0:36:58.880
<v Speaker 2>we were taking We weren't taking no for an answer,

0:36:59.000 --> 0:37:01.880
<v Speaker 2>and we ultimately ended up being able to go and

0:37:01.880 --> 0:37:04.920
<v Speaker 2>get Indy. She obviously had nothing, We had nothing. She

0:37:04.920 --> 0:37:07.600
<v Speaker 2>couldn't go into the house, so no nappies, no nothing,

0:37:07.719 --> 0:37:10.560
<v Speaker 2>her stuffy like everything was kind of you know, contaminated,

0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:13.880
<v Speaker 2>so we weren't able to get access to anything. We

0:37:13.920 --> 0:37:19.840
<v Speaker 2>did end up taking her home that night and sorting

0:37:19.840 --> 0:37:22.120
<v Speaker 2>out stuff in the morning. I remember I went down

0:37:22.160 --> 0:37:23.960
<v Speaker 2>to Best and Less Like as soon as it opened

0:37:23.960 --> 0:37:26.759
<v Speaker 2>the next day to get her her favorite stuffy because

0:37:26.760 --> 0:37:29.480
<v Speaker 2>she can't sleep without her stuffy, and to get some clothes,

0:37:29.640 --> 0:37:32.480
<v Speaker 2>and we had nappies dropped off at our door. But

0:37:33.080 --> 0:37:36.760
<v Speaker 2>ultimately the biggest focus that night was to get Indy.

0:37:36.880 --> 0:37:39.319
<v Speaker 2>We knew Aidan was safe, we knew that he was

0:37:39.320 --> 0:37:42.680
<v Speaker 2>with his dad, so the biggest concern was to make

0:37:42.719 --> 0:37:45.680
<v Speaker 2>sure that we got Indie. And then I just recall

0:37:45.800 --> 0:37:47.319
<v Speaker 2>we were just kind of sat in the lounge room

0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:50.759
<v Speaker 2>and watched her. I believe she was sleeping on the

0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:53.560
<v Speaker 2>couch or on my mum. I don't recall, but I

0:37:53.600 --> 0:37:55.719
<v Speaker 2>just know we were sitting there and we'd picked up

0:37:55.719 --> 0:37:57.399
<v Speaker 2>my nanna as well. We had to go and wake

0:37:57.480 --> 0:37:59.759
<v Speaker 2>up my nanna because we didn't want her to find out,

0:38:01.280 --> 0:38:02.960
<v Speaker 2>so we had to go and wake her up at

0:38:03.200 --> 0:38:04.280
<v Speaker 2>two three in the morning.

0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:07.600
<v Speaker 1>What a surreal experience to be trying to kind of

0:38:07.640 --> 0:38:10.560
<v Speaker 1>grapple with what's just happened to your sister, but then

0:38:10.880 --> 0:38:13.799
<v Speaker 1>going to Best and Less and buying a stuffy like

0:38:14.680 --> 0:38:18.000
<v Speaker 1>that must have just been so bizarre for you. It

0:38:18.040 --> 0:38:21.000
<v Speaker 1>was really surreal, even to the point that I could

0:38:21.000 --> 0:38:24.000
<v Speaker 1>have called work and been like, hey, you know, Kaye's

0:38:24.080 --> 0:38:26.600
<v Speaker 1>not coming in, but I actually we drove there. My

0:38:26.680 --> 0:38:28.880
<v Speaker 1>best friend drove me there, and I walked in and

0:38:28.920 --> 0:38:30.880
<v Speaker 1>I was just like, hey, Katie's not coming in for

0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:31.680
<v Speaker 1>a shift today.

0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:36.560
<v Speaker 2>She's dead. Like it was just you don't know how

0:38:36.560 --> 0:38:38.920
<v Speaker 2>you're going to react, and it was really weird. But

0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:41.960
<v Speaker 2>I felt like I couldn't just drop that news on

0:38:42.000 --> 0:38:44.239
<v Speaker 2>someone over the phone, like I wanted to also make

0:38:44.280 --> 0:38:47.200
<v Speaker 2>sure that the people I'm telling are okay, because it

0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:50.520
<v Speaker 2>was so jarring to me, and it would have been

0:38:50.600 --> 0:38:54.840
<v Speaker 2>very jarring to our work community. You know. One of

0:38:54.840 --> 0:38:57.320
<v Speaker 2>the managers was one of the ones who walked throughout

0:38:57.360 --> 0:39:01.040
<v Speaker 2>one day because it was later, and he would always

0:39:01.040 --> 0:39:02.920
<v Speaker 2>walk us out like he wanted to make sure we

0:39:02.920 --> 0:39:06.400
<v Speaker 2>were safe, and Katie had mentioned to him in passing

0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:09.600
<v Speaker 2>about how shame was kind of like jealous and all that.

0:39:10.000 --> 0:39:12.319
<v Speaker 2>And my manager made a joke and was like, oh,

0:39:12.440 --> 0:39:14.719
<v Speaker 2>should I like put my arm around you and give

0:39:14.760 --> 0:39:17.000
<v Speaker 2>him something to talk about, like as a joke, and

0:39:17.120 --> 0:39:20.279
<v Speaker 2>she goes, no, job, don't like that will cause you

0:39:21.000 --> 0:39:24.600
<v Speaker 2>so many issues. And so I told him and like

0:39:24.800 --> 0:39:28.360
<v Speaker 2>he was shocked, but you know, it wasn't surprised in

0:39:28.400 --> 0:39:32.000
<v Speaker 2>the sense of how ridiculous that this person had become.

0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:35.840
<v Speaker 1>Did the police come to you the next day? When

0:39:35.920 --> 0:39:38.560
<v Speaker 1>did they get involved? Were you kind of given any

0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:40.440
<v Speaker 1>support or explanations?

0:39:40.719 --> 0:39:45.800
<v Speaker 2>The support was nonexistent. So basically, Katie was murdered on Friday,

0:39:45.960 --> 0:39:50.000
<v Speaker 2>the ninth of March. This was the long weekend, and

0:39:50.560 --> 0:39:53.520
<v Speaker 2>evidently crime just stops on a long week and so

0:39:53.880 --> 0:39:57.880
<v Speaker 2>it was about three days I believe before any detectives

0:39:57.880 --> 0:39:59.960
<v Speaker 2>came to our house to formally confirm that it was

0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:04.960
<v Speaker 2>really yep. At this point Dad had had to We

0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:07.440
<v Speaker 2>had friends who were on the police force and stuff,

0:40:07.440 --> 0:40:10.439
<v Speaker 2>and you know, calls were made and things like that

0:40:10.480 --> 0:40:14.200
<v Speaker 2>to you know kind of say like this isn't acceptable,

0:40:14.239 --> 0:40:17.279
<v Speaker 2>this isn't okay. But yeah, Ultimately it was three days

0:40:17.320 --> 0:40:21.040
<v Speaker 2>before anyone came. We originally thought the day after that

0:40:21.080 --> 0:40:23.000
<v Speaker 2>there were these people in suits they were coming to

0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:25.000
<v Speaker 2>the front doors. Were like they must be the detectives.

0:40:25.280 --> 0:40:28.840
<v Speaker 2>They were journalists, and they basically were like at the time,

0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:32.359
<v Speaker 2>do you have a comment? If not, we'll put out

0:40:32.360 --> 0:40:35.440
<v Speaker 2>something anyway, And do you have a favorite photo of

0:40:35.520 --> 0:40:37.360
<v Speaker 2>Katie because if not, we're just going to grub whatever.

0:40:37.520 --> 0:40:40.480
<v Speaker 2>So basically we were kind of forced into I drafted

0:40:40.560 --> 0:40:43.200
<v Speaker 2>up a quick, you know, statement, and we provided a

0:40:43.200 --> 0:40:46.160
<v Speaker 2>photo because what were we going to do. They were

0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:49.560
<v Speaker 2>just going to grub it anyway. But yeah, we didn't

0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:52.200
<v Speaker 2>hear from the detectives or anything until three days later.

0:40:52.920 --> 0:40:55.440
<v Speaker 2>During that time, we had found out what the murder

0:40:55.440 --> 0:40:57.120
<v Speaker 2>weapon was via social media.

0:40:57.320 --> 0:40:59.680
<v Speaker 1>Via social media at police came.

0:41:00.120 --> 0:41:02.480
<v Speaker 2>The detectives came and said, oh, you know, so she

0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:05.960
<v Speaker 2>was murdered with We're like, yeah, dumb belba And they're like,

0:41:06.000 --> 0:41:07.600
<v Speaker 2>how do you know that? And we're like, it's all

0:41:07.600 --> 0:41:08.879
<v Speaker 2>over social media.

0:41:08.960 --> 0:41:13.279
<v Speaker 1>Did you find the media coverage because obviously the media

0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:15.160
<v Speaker 1>are going to cover something like this, you know, like

0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:19.440
<v Speaker 1>a young mother murdered. Was it hard? Like what was

0:41:19.480 --> 0:41:21.880
<v Speaker 1>it like as the family having the media knocking on

0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:24.319
<v Speaker 1>your door writing stories about your sister grabbing photos from

0:41:24.320 --> 0:41:25.120
<v Speaker 1>her social media.

0:41:25.840 --> 0:41:29.439
<v Speaker 2>It was a lot. It was very surreal. I will

0:41:29.480 --> 0:41:33.760
<v Speaker 2>say that the media have been quite respectful of our family,

0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:36.839
<v Speaker 2>and we are very privileged in that sense that we

0:41:36.880 --> 0:41:39.480
<v Speaker 2>know that a lot of people's experiences are very different

0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:45.280
<v Speaker 2>and we were very lucky, especially as my mum's cousin

0:41:45.920 --> 0:41:49.640
<v Speaker 2>works as a cameraman and in media, so he kind

0:41:49.680 --> 0:41:52.600
<v Speaker 2>of also put out that, you know, the vibe of

0:41:52.800 --> 0:41:55.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, please do not harass, you know, don't like

0:41:56.000 --> 0:41:59.320
<v Speaker 2>and don't make it about Shane either. Like there was

0:41:59.360 --> 0:42:02.239
<v Speaker 2>a lot of that was about the details, but once

0:42:02.320 --> 0:42:05.200
<v Speaker 2>more came out about Katie, they really did give Katie

0:42:05.280 --> 0:42:08.359
<v Speaker 2>her voice and who she was, Like they didn't let

0:42:08.400 --> 0:42:10.600
<v Speaker 2>her get lost in the story, which I know can

0:42:10.680 --> 0:42:14.600
<v Speaker 2>quite often happen. So we are very privileged, but it

0:42:14.640 --> 0:42:17.120
<v Speaker 2>was a lot. It was very surreal where we were

0:42:17.160 --> 0:42:20.719
<v Speaker 2>a regular family, Like two days prior, nobody knew us.

0:42:21.880 --> 0:42:23.920
<v Speaker 2>I was doing a bit of journalism as a part

0:42:23.960 --> 0:42:27.920
<v Speaker 2>of my criminology degree, Like it was very foreign to

0:42:27.960 --> 0:42:31.040
<v Speaker 2>be in the center of it over that weekend, obviously

0:42:32.280 --> 0:42:36.120
<v Speaker 2>seeing the video footage from the crime scene so seeing

0:42:36.120 --> 0:42:39.360
<v Speaker 2>her body bag get wheeled out, I'm seeing the bloody mattress,

0:42:39.440 --> 0:42:42.120
<v Speaker 2>which at the time we didn't even clue in that

0:42:42.160 --> 0:42:44.480
<v Speaker 2>it was a single mattress. We assume this had happened

0:42:44.480 --> 0:42:48.040
<v Speaker 2>in her bedroom. So it was only once they told

0:42:48.120 --> 0:42:50.200
<v Speaker 2>us it was Aidan's room that we clicked and we

0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:52.560
<v Speaker 2>were like, that was a single mattress covered in blood.

0:42:52.840 --> 0:42:55.279
<v Speaker 2>But they're all images that we should never have had

0:42:55.320 --> 0:42:55.800
<v Speaker 2>to see.

0:42:56.000 --> 0:42:58.400
<v Speaker 1>You should never have found that out from the media.

0:42:58.200 --> 0:43:01.520
<v Speaker 2>Either, Like we saw the the glass door smashed, and

0:43:01.520 --> 0:43:04.760
<v Speaker 2>obviously not being told any information for so many days,

0:43:04.840 --> 0:43:07.600
<v Speaker 2>your mind is left to piece together what's going on.

0:43:07.680 --> 0:43:09.960
<v Speaker 2>So we saw the smashed glass, we didn't know that

0:43:10.080 --> 0:43:13.960
<v Speaker 2>was from the police smashing it to get in. Only

0:43:14.239 --> 0:43:17.040
<v Speaker 2>we thought, oh my god, there's been a massive fight,

0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:19.759
<v Speaker 2>Like she's fought for her life, she's you know, And

0:43:20.120 --> 0:43:24.719
<v Speaker 2>that's also horrifying because you're then going to this situation

0:43:24.840 --> 0:43:26.920
<v Speaker 2>that hasn't unfolded, and then you find out that she

0:43:26.960 --> 0:43:30.759
<v Speaker 2>was completely defenseless sitting on the bed. And even then

0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:32.800
<v Speaker 2>I still say she fought, like how like there is

0:43:32.840 --> 0:43:35.000
<v Speaker 2>no way if there was an opportunity present, she would

0:43:35.000 --> 0:43:39.120
<v Speaker 2>have fought. But yeah, dealing with the media. It was just, yeah,

0:43:39.200 --> 0:43:41.520
<v Speaker 2>it was a lot, and to find out a lot

0:43:41.560 --> 0:43:44.239
<v Speaker 2>of the information from the media I think was very appalling.

0:43:44.560 --> 0:43:47.759
<v Speaker 1>When you think back on those first few weeks, those

0:43:47.760 --> 0:43:51.640
<v Speaker 1>first few months after losing Katie, what stands out the

0:43:51.680 --> 0:43:53.839
<v Speaker 1>most to you the community and.

0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:56.240
<v Speaker 2>How they rallied around us. We were really really lucky

0:43:56.320 --> 0:44:00.760
<v Speaker 2>to have such a wonderful community and supporting us within

0:44:00.800 --> 0:44:03.160
<v Speaker 2>a month of her just over a month after she

0:44:03.200 --> 0:44:06.920
<v Speaker 2>was murdered, we actually had to lanna first birthday for Indie,

0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:09.560
<v Speaker 2>and we had such wonderful friends and family helped rally

0:44:09.600 --> 0:44:12.040
<v Speaker 2>around us on that day because at the end of

0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:14.759
<v Speaker 2>the day, Indian only turns one once, and we knew

0:44:14.760 --> 0:44:17.480
<v Speaker 2>that Katie had already bought her presence and had started,

0:44:18.120 --> 0:44:20.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, to wrap them and get them ready. So

0:44:20.520 --> 0:44:23.400
<v Speaker 2>we felt we owed it to Katie to give her

0:44:24.080 --> 0:44:27.799
<v Speaker 2>this first birthday celebration. And you're doing this just over

0:44:27.880 --> 0:44:31.160
<v Speaker 2>a month after you've lost Katie, and probably two weeks

0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:33.160
<v Speaker 2>I think it was after we actually got to have

0:44:33.200 --> 0:44:36.680
<v Speaker 2>a funeral for Katie. So it was just a very

0:44:37.480 --> 0:44:41.680
<v Speaker 2>confusing and a very big blur. Genuinely, Mom and Dad

0:44:41.680 --> 0:44:44.360
<v Speaker 2>would not have survived if they didn't have Indy, and

0:44:44.400 --> 0:44:46.239
<v Speaker 2>I know that for a fact. They had no choice

0:44:46.280 --> 0:44:48.600
<v Speaker 2>but to get up every day. They had a baby

0:44:48.640 --> 0:44:51.239
<v Speaker 2>to look after. It was just a lot. And then

0:44:51.320 --> 0:44:54.799
<v Speaker 2>dealing obviously with Shane's family and just there was a

0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:58.239
<v Speaker 2>fair bit of animosity there and we were dealing with

0:44:58.280 --> 0:45:01.040
<v Speaker 2>a lot of that in the week lead up, like

0:45:01.120 --> 0:45:05.840
<v Speaker 2>after the murder. Dad was dealing with the rental people,

0:45:06.600 --> 0:45:09.200
<v Speaker 2>dealing with all the stuff to do with Katie's estate.

0:45:09.320 --> 0:45:12.080
<v Speaker 2>She didn't have a will, so it was just you

0:45:12.120 --> 0:45:14.399
<v Speaker 2>didn't get time to grief. There has been no time

0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:14.840
<v Speaker 2>to grief.

0:45:15.200 --> 0:45:18.520
<v Speaker 1>I don't think people realize all of the admin that

0:45:18.640 --> 0:45:21.120
<v Speaker 1>comes when something like this happens. You think you're going

0:45:21.160 --> 0:45:23.480
<v Speaker 1>to be able to kind of sit there and grieve

0:45:23.560 --> 0:45:25.879
<v Speaker 1>and cry and be able to Like you're saying, there's

0:45:25.920 --> 0:45:26.640
<v Speaker 1>so much to do.

0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:32.399
<v Speaker 2>And it's even more complex when both people who are

0:45:32.400 --> 0:45:36.240
<v Speaker 2>listed on these things, whether it be electricity, water, the bills,

0:45:36.280 --> 0:45:38.840
<v Speaker 2>everything like that, one of them's in prison.

0:45:39.440 --> 0:45:42.120
<v Speaker 1>The other one said, so how do you get access?

0:45:42.360 --> 0:45:45.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, then how do you get access? Not only that

0:45:46.239 --> 0:45:51.000
<v Speaker 2>it essentially becomes his backwards and forwards because he's not sentenced,

0:45:52.320 --> 0:45:55.759
<v Speaker 2>is you're innocental proven guilty. So at this point there

0:45:55.800 --> 0:45:58.040
<v Speaker 2>is no knowing. You don't know when the sentencing is

0:45:58.040 --> 0:45:59.960
<v Speaker 2>going to happen, you don't know what the outcome was

0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:02.480
<v Speaker 2>going to be. Like it was very early days and

0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:05.000
<v Speaker 2>it was just the ADMIN side. I think took well

0:46:05.040 --> 0:46:06.040
<v Speaker 2>and truly over a.

0:46:06.040 --> 0:46:08.919
<v Speaker 1>Year to kind of get through even just the fact

0:46:08.960 --> 0:46:10.279
<v Speaker 1>that I know your dad did a lot of that,

0:46:10.360 --> 0:46:12.560
<v Speaker 1>but he having to explain over the phone over and

0:46:12.600 --> 0:46:13.840
<v Speaker 1>over again what happened.

0:46:14.520 --> 0:46:20.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, see even dad, because Dad is not biologically Katie's dad,

0:46:20.400 --> 0:46:23.360
<v Speaker 2>but by all accounts, he is the only dad she

0:46:23.440 --> 0:46:25.840
<v Speaker 2>has ever had, and that is how she like, she

0:46:25.960 --> 0:46:27.760
<v Speaker 2>was going to turn thirty that year and she wanted

0:46:27.760 --> 0:46:31.719
<v Speaker 2>to get adoption papers. She wanted it legitimized. Like so

0:46:32.200 --> 0:46:38.000
<v Speaker 2>he's Katie's dad wholeheartedly, But when it comes to ADMIN stuff, Yep,

0:46:38.040 --> 0:46:40.880
<v Speaker 2>he's not Katie's dad. He has no rights to do it.

0:46:41.200 --> 0:46:44.600
<v Speaker 2>So then you're trying to get a grieving mother to

0:46:44.719 --> 0:46:47.239
<v Speaker 2>take on the ADMIN when Dad's trying to step up

0:46:47.239 --> 0:46:49.239
<v Speaker 2>and do all that and he's not allowed to, and

0:46:49.280 --> 0:46:53.160
<v Speaker 2>he's constantly being reminded that he is not Haiti's biological father.

0:46:53.239 --> 0:46:57.080
<v Speaker 2>He lost his identity throughout this whole process. He for

0:46:57.239 --> 0:46:59.360
<v Speaker 2>all accounts from the moment like she was born, was

0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:04.439
<v Speaker 2>Katy's dad, and in that short period of time he

0:47:04.560 --> 0:47:07.200
<v Speaker 2>was reduced to less than and he lost his identity.

0:47:07.960 --> 0:47:11.200
<v Speaker 1>After the break, we hear about why the court interrupted

0:47:11.360 --> 0:47:16.080
<v Speaker 1>Bianka's victim impact statement. Shane pled guilty, which saved your

0:47:16.120 --> 0:47:20.719
<v Speaker 1>family the horror of a trial, but the case still

0:47:20.719 --> 0:47:23.560
<v Speaker 1>goes through a very lengthy process. He went through, you know,

0:47:23.600 --> 0:47:25.799
<v Speaker 1>the Melbourne Magistrate's Court and then the Supreme Court. There's

0:47:25.800 --> 0:47:28.080
<v Speaker 1>lots of mentions, there's lots to do in that kind

0:47:28.120 --> 0:47:30.759
<v Speaker 1>of time. What was that process like for you? I

0:47:30.800 --> 0:47:32.960
<v Speaker 1>know you were studying criminology, but nothing prepares you for

0:47:33.000 --> 0:47:37.440
<v Speaker 1>being thrown in as a victim's family. What was it like?

0:47:38.280 --> 0:47:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Very confronting process. It was a very confusing process because

0:47:43.320 --> 0:47:45.880
<v Speaker 2>I went in with the expectations of a system that

0:47:45.920 --> 0:47:47.720
<v Speaker 2>works in the way that we are told it works,

0:47:47.760 --> 0:47:49.840
<v Speaker 2>and knowing that all these people are coming out of

0:47:49.880 --> 0:47:52.960
<v Speaker 2>my degrees with this optimism of this is how it works.

0:47:53.080 --> 0:47:55.839
<v Speaker 2>You know, we are very victim focused and finding out

0:47:55.920 --> 0:48:00.080
<v Speaker 2>it's really not. We found out very quickly that our

0:48:00.120 --> 0:48:03.160
<v Speaker 2>system is very perpetrator focused. The well being and the

0:48:03.200 --> 0:48:06.120
<v Speaker 2>interests of the perpetrator are at the forefront and always

0:48:06.200 --> 0:48:09.759
<v Speaker 2>will be. But basically I remember the Magistate's court one,

0:48:09.800 --> 0:48:13.319
<v Speaker 2>which was the first initial like plea hearing where he

0:48:13.360 --> 0:48:16.359
<v Speaker 2>did plead guilty. We didn't even get to sit in

0:48:16.360 --> 0:48:19.440
<v Speaker 2>that courtroom. We had to be walked in when it

0:48:19.480 --> 0:48:22.840
<v Speaker 2>was time to hear his mention because there were no

0:48:22.960 --> 0:48:25.960
<v Speaker 2>seats for us because his whole family and supporters took

0:48:26.000 --> 0:48:29.640
<v Speaker 2>them all up, so we had to stand there. We

0:48:29.640 --> 0:48:32.160
<v Speaker 2>weren't allowed in because there was no seats. Then I

0:48:32.200 --> 0:48:34.239
<v Speaker 2>know when we went to the Supreme Court, we had

0:48:34.280 --> 0:48:38.279
<v Speaker 2>to be separated because they essentially were doing the same thing.

0:48:38.719 --> 0:48:44.200
<v Speaker 2>They were adding to the trauma of basically we like,

0:48:44.360 --> 0:48:47.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, the victim blaming and that there was laughing

0:48:47.560 --> 0:48:50.680
<v Speaker 2>whilst in the courtroom. His sister gave us the bird

0:48:50.760 --> 0:48:52.759
<v Speaker 2>in the courtroom, and the judge didn't seem to care

0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:57.399
<v Speaker 2>about that. They literally walked Shane right in front of us,

0:48:57.480 --> 0:49:00.680
<v Speaker 2>like within arm's reach. Dad could have literally he flipped

0:49:00.719 --> 0:49:03.719
<v Speaker 2>his ear, which I just don't think is very mindful

0:49:03.880 --> 0:49:05.799
<v Speaker 2>of victims, Like make sure you're placing them in a

0:49:05.840 --> 0:49:10.200
<v Speaker 2>spot that it's not, you know, and like Dad said,

0:49:10.239 --> 0:49:12.920
<v Speaker 2>like tempting, tempting, but no, like he's like, I've got

0:49:12.960 --> 0:49:15.120
<v Speaker 2>to be this person for Indie. Now, I've got to

0:49:15.160 --> 0:49:18.760
<v Speaker 2>conduct myself in a way that is better than these people.

0:49:19.360 --> 0:49:22.160
<v Speaker 2>But it was full of high stress. We're going there,

0:49:22.200 --> 0:49:25.040
<v Speaker 2>we're hearing details of what's happened to Katie, We're reading

0:49:25.040 --> 0:49:29.960
<v Speaker 2>police reports, we're hearing the character references. So we gave

0:49:29.960 --> 0:49:33.719
<v Speaker 2>our victim statements. But during that process, you're audited. You're

0:49:33.760 --> 0:49:35.400
<v Speaker 2>told what you're allowed to say and what you're not

0:49:35.440 --> 0:49:36.960
<v Speaker 2>allowed to say, which.

0:49:36.719 --> 0:49:39.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't think people realize. You actually have to get

0:49:39.160 --> 0:49:41.280
<v Speaker 1>your victim impact statement approved.

0:49:41.320 --> 0:49:43.160
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and so you have a lot of what you're

0:49:43.160 --> 0:49:44.919
<v Speaker 2>not allowed to say what you are allowed to say.

0:49:44.960 --> 0:49:47.520
<v Speaker 2>And I had decided to stand up in court and

0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:49.560
<v Speaker 2>face him. I wanted him to have to look at me,

0:49:49.960 --> 0:49:53.320
<v Speaker 2>which was a very daunting thing, especially with his supporters

0:49:53.400 --> 0:49:57.680
<v Speaker 2>laughing overhead and like gauwking and you know, but I

0:49:57.719 --> 0:50:01.640
<v Speaker 2>stood there, and he's barrister at the time opposed and

0:50:01.719 --> 0:50:05.040
<v Speaker 2>objected to my victim's pack statement whilst I was on

0:50:05.080 --> 0:50:07.080
<v Speaker 2>the stand, even though it had gone through the correct

0:50:07.120 --> 0:50:10.359
<v Speaker 2>measures of being approved. We've only just recently got back

0:50:10.400 --> 0:50:13.360
<v Speaker 2>to being not afraid to bump into these people in

0:50:13.440 --> 0:50:15.600
<v Speaker 2>the supermarket, and that for the fear of what kind

0:50:15.640 --> 0:50:19.080
<v Speaker 2>of behaviors were happening. Because when you so blindly support

0:50:19.160 --> 0:50:21.520
<v Speaker 2>someone at the expense of victims, I think it's a

0:50:21.520 --> 0:50:23.719
<v Speaker 2>pretty fair thing to say that, like, your life now

0:50:23.880 --> 0:50:26.920
<v Speaker 2>feels like you can't trust people. We weren't allowed to

0:50:26.960 --> 0:50:30.799
<v Speaker 2>be angry. We weren't allowed to Yeah, it was very cold, like,

0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:35.439
<v Speaker 2>how can you understand someone's the impact that this kind

0:50:35.520 --> 0:50:37.960
<v Speaker 2>of lost has on someone when you're not allowed to

0:50:37.960 --> 0:50:41.200
<v Speaker 2>say how it's impacted you, which is one thing. And

0:50:41.200 --> 0:50:43.279
<v Speaker 2>then we had to sit there and listen to the

0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:47.319
<v Speaker 2>character references of what a great guy he was. And thankfully,

0:50:47.719 --> 0:50:53.640
<v Speaker 2>thanks to Harry James, that's being abolished. Your reference ain't relevant,

0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:57.759
<v Speaker 2>amazing because it's not what you were before you did.

0:50:57.760 --> 0:51:01.439
<v Speaker 2>A heinous crime does not minish the crime in which

0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:03.760
<v Speaker 2>you committed. And I think it's a great step forward

0:51:03.880 --> 0:51:06.600
<v Speaker 2>for victims to not have to listen to what a

0:51:06.719 --> 0:51:11.200
<v Speaker 2>great person their abuse are, their perpetrator, anything like that,

0:51:11.200 --> 0:51:13.759
<v Speaker 2>their murderer is, because at the end of the day,

0:51:14.840 --> 0:51:17.359
<v Speaker 2>you're there for that crime and that defines them.

0:51:17.719 --> 0:51:21.520
<v Speaker 1>There have been some other changes since Katie's murder and

0:51:21.560 --> 0:51:24.880
<v Speaker 1>Shane's sentencing in that coercive control laws are now in

0:51:24.920 --> 0:51:27.720
<v Speaker 1>place in I was going to say a number of states,

0:51:27.719 --> 0:51:31.520
<v Speaker 1>but it is a few states. It's only New South Wales,

0:51:31.560 --> 0:51:33.360
<v Speaker 1>Queenslight and South Australia that have jumped on in the

0:51:33.440 --> 0:51:36.640
<v Speaker 1>last few years. Was that a comfort to you that

0:51:36.640 --> 0:51:39.279
<v Speaker 1>that is now recognized by the court system or how

0:51:39.320 --> 0:51:41.600
<v Speaker 1>does that actually play out for you when you see

0:51:41.640 --> 0:51:43.040
<v Speaker 1>it in the system.

0:51:43.680 --> 0:51:47.839
<v Speaker 2>It was rewarding to see it actually be implicated. I

0:51:47.880 --> 0:51:50.840
<v Speaker 2>think it's a great step forward to acknowledging that not

0:51:51.040 --> 0:51:54.160
<v Speaker 2>all abuse is physical and that we are really trying

0:51:54.160 --> 0:51:57.320
<v Speaker 2>to see the invisible essentially, which is such a challenge

0:51:57.360 --> 0:52:01.880
<v Speaker 2>like you, but it gives victim a better standpoint to

0:52:02.040 --> 0:52:05.120
<v Speaker 2>understand coursive control, to know that it is something that

0:52:05.280 --> 0:52:08.560
<v Speaker 2>is illegal, that the behavior is just as bad as

0:52:08.600 --> 0:52:11.879
<v Speaker 2>physical abuse. I won't say that I'm overjoyed about it

0:52:11.960 --> 0:52:14.440
<v Speaker 2>because it's common sense and we should have already been

0:52:14.440 --> 0:52:17.520
<v Speaker 2>implementing that with or without a law. If you're proving

0:52:17.560 --> 0:52:22.680
<v Speaker 2>that someone is harassing you, stalking you, invading on your privacy,

0:52:22.960 --> 0:52:26.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, basically restricting your ability to be a human

0:52:26.920 --> 0:52:29.880
<v Speaker 2>being of your own capabilities. Then I don't think we

0:52:29.920 --> 0:52:33.440
<v Speaker 2>need a law to say, hey, that's actually very violating

0:52:33.520 --> 0:52:36.719
<v Speaker 2>and that goes against and especially when paired with in

0:52:36.800 --> 0:52:38.880
<v Speaker 2>our case, a murder case, I think it should have

0:52:38.960 --> 0:52:41.400
<v Speaker 2>definitely had more of a weighing in the sentence. I

0:52:41.400 --> 0:52:43.839
<v Speaker 2>don't think we needed a law to tell us that

0:52:43.840 --> 0:52:47.600
<v Speaker 2>that behavior contributed to her death, and that if intervention

0:52:47.680 --> 0:52:50.799
<v Speaker 2>had happened earlier, if the warning signs had been recognized

0:52:52.040 --> 0:52:56.240
<v Speaker 2>on a court level or on a police ability, then

0:52:57.080 --> 0:52:59.760
<v Speaker 2>we may not have ended up here. I will say

0:52:59.800 --> 0:53:03.120
<v Speaker 2>that I am incredibly disappointed in Victoria because we claim

0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:06.000
<v Speaker 2>to be so forward thinking and that we are leading

0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:09.560
<v Speaker 2>the way when it comes to family violence and all

0:53:09.600 --> 0:53:12.200
<v Speaker 2>the preventions and all these things that they're doing, and

0:53:12.239 --> 0:53:14.279
<v Speaker 2>they love to pat themselves on the back about it.

0:53:14.600 --> 0:53:17.080
<v Speaker 2>You can't even implement coursive control laws and you wait

0:53:17.160 --> 0:53:20.640
<v Speaker 2>until other states have done it, when we've got there's

0:53:20.680 --> 0:53:24.120
<v Speaker 2>countries that have been doing it. And yes, it is

0:53:24.320 --> 0:53:29.880
<v Speaker 2>difficult to convict I understand that, but there's a lot

0:53:29.920 --> 0:53:32.920
<v Speaker 2>of things that are difficult, and with the right procedures,

0:53:32.960 --> 0:53:36.239
<v Speaker 2>with the right paperwork, with the right documentation, there are

0:53:36.320 --> 0:53:39.160
<v Speaker 2>ways to go about it. And in some cases, like Katie,

0:53:39.280 --> 0:53:44.160
<v Speaker 2>it's very clear cut. You can't disprove that there was

0:53:44.239 --> 0:53:46.440
<v Speaker 2>coursive control there. It is very evident, and I know

0:53:46.520 --> 0:53:49.200
<v Speaker 2>in so many people's lives they would be able to

0:53:49.239 --> 0:53:50.239
<v Speaker 2>point that out as well.

0:53:50.719 --> 0:53:54.800
<v Speaker 1>What does life without Katie look like for your family?

0:53:54.840 --> 0:53:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Now her kids are obviously nearly a decade older. What

0:53:59.719 --> 0:54:00.520
<v Speaker 1>is life?

0:54:00.880 --> 0:54:05.400
<v Speaker 2>It's a bittersweet. I would say we are living with

0:54:05.440 --> 0:54:08.160
<v Speaker 2>a hole in our heart, it's a whole in our life.

0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:12.520
<v Speaker 2>I think Katie's daughter, Indie puts it best. She misses

0:54:12.560 --> 0:54:15.359
<v Speaker 2>her mum, but she doesn't know what she misses. And

0:54:15.400 --> 0:54:17.480
<v Speaker 2>I think that's kind of the element of all of

0:54:17.560 --> 0:54:22.240
<v Speaker 2>us where we we miss Katie. We know what we're missing,

0:54:22.280 --> 0:54:25.560
<v Speaker 2>but her children don't. My children don't know what they're

0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:28.040
<v Speaker 2>missing yet. They talk about their Auntie Katy all the time.

0:54:29.320 --> 0:54:33.480
<v Speaker 2>They literally go out to where she's laid to rest.

0:54:34.200 --> 0:54:36.279
<v Speaker 2>That's where we spend our mother's days, that's where we

0:54:36.320 --> 0:54:40.080
<v Speaker 2>spend our birthdays, Christmases, Easter. This is our new normal

0:54:40.520 --> 0:54:43.120
<v Speaker 2>with a person missing, and it's one where you play

0:54:43.840 --> 0:54:46.359
<v Speaker 2>the constant what ifs. You constantly go like, what if

0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:47.759
<v Speaker 2>it was like this? What if it was like that?

0:54:48.520 --> 0:54:51.319
<v Speaker 2>I have to look at it as I met my

0:54:51.400 --> 0:54:55.920
<v Speaker 2>partner through my sister at work, and ultimately we now

0:54:55.960 --> 0:54:59.840
<v Speaker 2>have two beautiful children. So I have to say that

0:55:00.080 --> 0:55:02.759
<v Speaker 2>without Katie and what happened to her, I wouldn't have

0:55:02.840 --> 0:55:04.920
<v Speaker 2>the life I have now. I just wish that she

0:55:05.040 --> 0:55:09.680
<v Speaker 2>could be here physically, but she definitely gave me this life,

0:55:09.680 --> 0:55:12.640
<v Speaker 2>and I'm eternally grateful for that. My daughter has her

0:55:12.800 --> 0:55:15.040
<v Speaker 2>name as her middle name because I want her to

0:55:15.080 --> 0:55:18.440
<v Speaker 2>be a very big part of our life. Her children

0:55:18.520 --> 0:55:22.080
<v Speaker 2>are thriving despite the circumstances, but they're going to have

0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:23.600
<v Speaker 2>a lot of trauma for the rest of their lives.

0:55:23.640 --> 0:55:27.480
<v Speaker 2>They're going to struggle to trust people. I don't even

0:55:27.520 --> 0:55:29.719
<v Speaker 2>know what it looks like for them to get into relationships,

0:55:29.760 --> 0:55:31.200
<v Speaker 2>and I know for a fact that he's going to

0:55:31.280 --> 0:55:34.319
<v Speaker 2>be so hard for my parents to allow India to date.

0:55:34.960 --> 0:55:37.600
<v Speaker 2>But I don't also restrict someone, you know, they don't

0:55:37.600 --> 0:55:40.799
<v Speaker 2>want to control her. But I know that it is

0:55:40.840 --> 0:55:43.760
<v Speaker 2>going to be a very difficult time to entrust someone

0:55:43.840 --> 0:55:46.320
<v Speaker 2>the same way that they had to trust my partner

0:55:46.440 --> 0:55:48.719
<v Speaker 2>and welcome him into our family. That we can't be

0:55:48.760 --> 0:55:51.799
<v Speaker 2>completely shut off. But yeah, there's this big absence in

0:55:51.840 --> 0:55:54.680
<v Speaker 2>our lives, and it's one that could have been avoided.

0:55:54.800 --> 0:55:57.959
<v Speaker 2>It's one that you know, this isn't how our lives

0:55:58.000 --> 0:56:01.200
<v Speaker 2>were meant to be. Every happy moment for other families

0:56:01.239 --> 0:56:03.799
<v Speaker 2>and it is a sad one for us. There is

0:56:03.840 --> 0:56:09.680
<v Speaker 2>no happy Christmases. There's moments of happiness. Birthdays. You know,

0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:12.040
<v Speaker 2>India just had her birthday. It was a happy day.

0:56:12.120 --> 0:56:14.279
<v Speaker 2>But I know for a fact that I go home

0:56:14.320 --> 0:56:16.439
<v Speaker 2>and I cry that night. I know for a fact

0:56:16.440 --> 0:56:20.280
<v Speaker 2>that my mum cries. I know that I'm physically unwell.

0:56:20.400 --> 0:56:23.359
<v Speaker 2>The week leading up to our anniversary, which it's been

0:56:23.400 --> 0:56:25.120
<v Speaker 2>eight years, you think it would get a bit easier,

0:56:25.160 --> 0:56:29.080
<v Speaker 2>and everyone says time heels. But when someone's taken in

0:56:29.120 --> 0:56:31.759
<v Speaker 2>this way that's so unnatural, and at the hands of

0:56:31.760 --> 0:56:34.040
<v Speaker 2>someone else who you know will come back out into

0:56:34.040 --> 0:56:38.560
<v Speaker 2>society and get to live their life, it just it hurts,

0:56:38.560 --> 0:56:42.640
<v Speaker 2>and you're living on a countdown. You can't fully enjoy life,

0:56:43.120 --> 0:56:47.919
<v Speaker 2>and then you know that once they're out, you're scared again.

0:56:50.200 --> 0:56:53.520
<v Speaker 1>Lastly, Bianka, what do you want listeners who have heard

0:56:53.600 --> 0:56:56.240
<v Speaker 1>your story and heard Katie's story to take away from

0:56:57.040 --> 0:56:59.279
<v Speaker 1>our chat and hearing the details.

0:56:59.640 --> 0:57:04.200
<v Speaker 2>I want people to understand that it doesn't have to

0:57:04.239 --> 0:57:07.960
<v Speaker 2>be physical abuse. Just because you don't have signs of

0:57:08.000 --> 0:57:11.280
<v Speaker 2>abuse doesn't mean that you aren't being abused. Coursive control

0:57:11.400 --> 0:57:15.279
<v Speaker 2>is very real. Coursive control is invisible, and it's so

0:57:15.360 --> 0:57:18.840
<v Speaker 2>insidious and it creeps up. So I want people who

0:57:18.840 --> 0:57:22.640
<v Speaker 2>are in those relationships to acknowledge that they deserve better,

0:57:22.760 --> 0:57:25.760
<v Speaker 2>that it's not their fault, and to reach out to

0:57:25.840 --> 0:57:28.720
<v Speaker 2>loved ones, family members, And in that case, I want

0:57:28.760 --> 0:57:32.680
<v Speaker 2>family members and friends and general society to educate themselves

0:57:32.720 --> 0:57:35.640
<v Speaker 2>on it, to see the signs. In case the person

0:57:35.720 --> 0:57:38.360
<v Speaker 2>isn't able to see it for themselves, you need to

0:57:38.360 --> 0:57:40.160
<v Speaker 2>be a safe space for someone. You need to not

0:57:40.240 --> 0:57:42.800
<v Speaker 2>judge them, and you definitely need to not allow that

0:57:42.920 --> 0:57:47.240
<v Speaker 2>isolation to take place. Because had we been more open

0:57:48.040 --> 0:57:51.120
<v Speaker 2>with Katie and not so shut off about the behavior

0:57:51.120 --> 0:57:52.840
<v Speaker 2>because we were just we just put it down to

0:57:52.920 --> 0:57:56.120
<v Speaker 2>jealousy and she was handling it and we didn't want

0:57:56.120 --> 0:58:00.240
<v Speaker 2>to get involved in the drama. They're adults, maybe there

0:58:00.280 --> 0:58:02.440
<v Speaker 2>would have been a different outcome. I highly doubt it

0:58:02.480 --> 0:58:05.720
<v Speaker 2>in that case. But if we hadn't shut off, we

0:58:05.720 --> 0:58:07.800
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be living with the Wattiffs. We would have been

0:58:07.920 --> 0:58:11.160
<v Speaker 2>still her support person, and to this day, I've had

0:58:11.200 --> 0:58:15.160
<v Speaker 2>to help friends and strangers who aren't ready to accept

0:58:15.200 --> 0:58:17.840
<v Speaker 2>what's happening to them. And as hard as it is

0:58:17.880 --> 0:58:23.120
<v Speaker 2>to watch someone go through that, don't leave them. Don't

0:58:23.200 --> 0:58:25.440
<v Speaker 2>allow that isolation to take place, because that is their

0:58:25.440 --> 0:58:26.200
<v Speaker 2>greatest weapon.

0:58:27.560 --> 0:58:30.880
<v Speaker 1>True Crime Conversations is hosted by me Jemma bass Our.

0:58:30.920 --> 0:58:35.200
<v Speaker 1>Senior producer is Charlie Blackman, the group executive producer is

0:58:35.240 --> 0:58:38.920
<v Speaker 1>Alaria Brophy, and there's been video editing by Julian Rosario.

0:58:39.320 --> 0:58:41.479
<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week

0:58:41.680 --> 0:58:43.480
<v Speaker 1>with another True Crime Conversation