WEBVTT - I’d Like To Give My Diagnosis Back 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.342 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:18.782 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:20.422 --> 0:00:24.461 I've entered my Rashi era. Think about a rashie is 0:00:24.462 --> 0:00:25.941 that I don't want to be a three year old 0:00:26.182 --> 0:00:29.462 at a public pool, right, I want to be Kate 0:00:29.542 --> 0:00:32.342 Bosworth in Blue Crats. Can we remember that now? 0:00:32.582 --> 0:00:33.382 Reference Jersey. 0:00:33.942 --> 0:00:34.582 I knew you would. 0:00:34.742 --> 0:00:37.861 I've got rashi. It's got a full zip and I 0:00:37.942 --> 0:00:41.342 always wear it like all the wow and just for 0:00:41.382 --> 0:00:42.262 a little bit of peanut. 0:00:42.942 --> 0:00:44.942 And my friend when I used to go to the 0:00:44.942 --> 0:00:46.742 beach from the other time, she'd always come up to 0:00:46.782 --> 0:00:49.502 me and just do this bit back up like it 0:00:49.662 --> 0:00:50.422 was a mistake. 0:00:51.742 --> 0:00:52.902 I'm trying to be hot. 0:00:56.942 --> 0:00:59.662 Hello, and welcome to MoMA Mia out Loud and to 0:00:59.742 --> 0:01:02.582 our Friday show where we do not talk about the news. 0:01:02.902 --> 0:01:05.142 We talk about other things. It's like a whole mental 0:01:05.222 --> 0:01:08.661 la la laughingers in this situation. Today is Friday, the 0:01:08.661 --> 0:01:11.222 eleventh of eight, and my name is Hollywayin Wright. 0:01:11.462 --> 0:01:15.222 I am Jesse Stevens, and I am Amelia Lester, and 0:01:15.302 --> 0:01:18.342 Amelia is joining us remotely today. We now have to 0:01:18.342 --> 0:01:20.982 have that as a caveat ever since when I joined remotely, 0:01:21.062 --> 0:01:22.941 I swear I'm not plugging a chord in properly, but 0:01:22.982 --> 0:01:25.542 I guarantee that Amelia's audio is going to be perfect, 0:01:25.862 --> 0:01:26.822 perfect Amelia. 0:01:26.902 --> 0:01:28.382 But if you wonder if why she sounds a bit 0:01:28.462 --> 0:01:29.782 little different, that's. 0:01:29.622 --> 0:01:33.622 Why I'm swathed in sheepskin right audio. 0:01:35.502 --> 0:01:41.182 On today's show, are we entering the era of d diagnosis? 0:01:41.542 --> 0:01:44.021 We're talking about a new book that's changing the way 0:01:44.062 --> 0:01:47.702 we see what's wrong with us? Also an it girl, 0:01:47.742 --> 0:01:50.222 a magazine mogul, and a rashie. It could be a 0:01:50.222 --> 0:01:53.102 reality show, but it's not. It's our recommendations for the week, 0:01:53.742 --> 0:01:56.742 and a Nicole test, a bingle and multiple viewings of 0:01:56.742 --> 0:01:59.982 a questionable film that's our best and worse. But first, 0:02:00.062 --> 0:02:00.862 Amelia Lester. 0:02:01.382 --> 0:02:04.222 In case you missed it, A professional golfer Ryan McCormick 0:02:04.342 --> 0:02:07.181 has taped his mouth and no it wasn't mouth taping 0:02:07.222 --> 0:02:10.342 for sleep. The American golfer has been had apparently a 0:02:10.382 --> 0:02:12.342 tough year on the golf circuit. As I think you 0:02:12.462 --> 0:02:13.862 probably both know, Holly. 0:02:13.702 --> 0:02:16.382 And Jesse, I'm very closely following the golf circuit at 0:02:16.382 --> 0:02:16.862 all times. 0:02:16.982 --> 0:02:19.382 Me McCormick classic McCormick behavior. 0:02:20.582 --> 0:02:23.302 He knew he was prone to emotional outbursts, so he 0:02:23.422 --> 0:02:26.822 decided that when things weren't going well, he should preempt 0:02:26.822 --> 0:02:29.422 that by taping his mouth. Here is Ryan. 0:02:29.742 --> 0:02:32.342 I mean, at this point, I've tried about everything. 0:02:32.382 --> 0:02:33.621 I've read a lot of books. 0:02:33.702 --> 0:02:38.102 I've talked to people just too angry on the golf course. 0:02:38.222 --> 0:02:40.782 So I have run out of ideas. 0:02:40.862 --> 0:02:42.942 And I thought about the tape thing a couple weeks ago, 0:02:43.382 --> 0:02:46.862 and unfortunately came down to that today. 0:02:47.022 --> 0:02:49.022 I was hoping maybe it would help me. I can't 0:02:49.022 --> 0:02:50.181 say that it did or didn't. 0:02:50.622 --> 0:02:53.662 Golf rage. He's got golf rage and this was his solution. 0:02:53.862 --> 0:02:56.262 My god, don't you feel like mouth tape is one 0:02:56.262 --> 0:02:59.102 of those things where for me, I literally did not 0:02:59.342 --> 0:03:01.462 know of the concept for the first forty years of 0:03:01.502 --> 0:03:05.542 my life, and now it's popping up everywhere all the time. Jesse, 0:03:05.702 --> 0:03:08.142 is there anyone whose mouths you would like to tape? 0:03:08.342 --> 0:03:11.061 Yeah? When I saw this story, I immediately put it 0:03:11.062 --> 0:03:13.302 in our group chat and I said, we should take 0:03:13.342 --> 0:03:14.102 me a's mouth. 0:03:14.142 --> 0:03:14.341 Hut. 0:03:14.422 --> 0:03:16.702 I think that could be a good thing for some workplaces. 0:03:17.262 --> 0:03:20.782 And similarly to McCormick, he was saying he did this 0:03:20.822 --> 0:03:23.062 as well for his fellow golfers. So I feel like 0:03:23.142 --> 0:03:26.062 sometimes it's a kind thing for those around us if 0:03:26.062 --> 0:03:29.422 we know that we've got issues with, say, impulse control, 0:03:29.462 --> 0:03:30.582 as mea sometimes does. 0:03:30.742 --> 0:03:33.222 I feel sorry for Ryan because this is a big 0:03:33.262 --> 0:03:35.142 thing to do when you know the world's cameras are 0:03:35.142 --> 0:03:38.502 on you, right, you know everybody's gonna ask you. And 0:03:38.662 --> 0:03:41.342 I also relate because one of my resting faces is 0:03:41.342 --> 0:03:46.902 that hold my lips together. And when I'm doing that, 0:03:47.262 --> 0:03:51.182 I'm sure I'm doing exactly this. I'm like going, don't 0:03:51.222 --> 0:03:53.422 shay it, don't say it, don't say it. But what 0:03:53.462 --> 0:03:55.622 don't they make his golf game a bit hard? Don't 0:03:55.662 --> 0:03:56.782 have you talk in golf? 0:03:56.902 --> 0:04:00.142 Yeah, so speaking to your caddy about what club you 0:04:00.222 --> 0:04:03.262 want for your next hole quite hard. I want the book, 0:04:04.342 --> 0:04:07.582 a big one for my putter. But I think there's 0:04:07.582 --> 0:04:09.782 something about sports that you play on your own that 0:04:09.902 --> 0:04:13.382 screw in your head. Because I loved tennis growing up 0:04:13.822 --> 0:04:15.942 and I needed tape. I needed two tape. 0:04:16.022 --> 0:04:17.742 You were John McEnroe, Tope. 0:04:17.622 --> 0:04:20.702 I am John McEnroe. You've nailed it. I need a 0:04:20.741 --> 0:04:23.061 tape across my mouth and I need a tape between 0:04:23.062 --> 0:04:25.981 my hand and that racket because the amount of rackets 0:04:26.022 --> 0:04:29.902 I threw. Oh, I screamed, because it's the frustration when 0:04:29.902 --> 0:04:31.621 you're in a team, you get to blame it on others. 0:04:31.861 --> 0:04:33.022 That's why I love this podcast. 0:04:33.142 --> 0:04:34.861 Yeah, it's true when we screw it up, you're just 0:04:34.902 --> 0:04:37.222 like that was definitely holly to me. 0:04:37.301 --> 0:04:39.741 It reminds me a little bit also of the way 0:04:39.861 --> 0:04:44.382 that pimple patches have become so big, and you know, 0:04:44.501 --> 0:04:46.262 you don't think of mouth tape is something you can 0:04:46.301 --> 0:04:49.381 wear in public. I'm still figuring out whether pimple patches 0:04:49.381 --> 0:04:51.501 are something I can wear in public. And sometimes I 0:04:51.541 --> 0:04:54.341 wear pimple patches to pick up my children from school 0:04:54.501 --> 0:04:57.061 and they get really angry at me, and they don't 0:04:57.142 --> 0:04:59.581 understand that this is what Justin Bieber and others have 0:04:59.662 --> 0:05:00.861 already said as a trend. 0:05:01.662 --> 0:05:05.461 You know Dochi, who's a very very cool rapper musician, 0:05:05.741 --> 0:05:08.261 she wears face tape like as a statement to pull 0:05:08.262 --> 0:05:11.622 ahead back and like vis face tape on purpose. And 0:05:11.662 --> 0:05:14.301 when she was asked why, she said, and I apologize 0:05:14.301 --> 0:05:23.061 in advance to the producers for this, she said, because it's. 0:05:21.861 --> 0:05:25.101 We are living in the age of diagnosis, but are 0:05:25.142 --> 0:05:29.142 we about to enter a new era, one of d diagnosis, 0:05:29.381 --> 0:05:33.181 where we give some of our pathologies back. This might 0:05:33.222 --> 0:05:35.301 sound provocative, and it is, but I'm going to put 0:05:35.301 --> 0:05:38.222 forward the argument that is being made by an Irish 0:05:38.301 --> 0:05:42.901 physician who specializes in neurology named doctor Suzanne O'Sullivan, and 0:05:42.902 --> 0:05:45.901 then I'd love to hear your thoughts. O'Sullivan has released 0:05:45.902 --> 0:05:47.981 a book. If you haven't seen it, you're about to 0:05:47.981 --> 0:05:50.342 see it everywhere. It is called The Age of Diagnosis, 0:05:50.782 --> 0:05:53.421 and she says that the first job of a doctor 0:05:53.582 --> 0:05:57.342 is to do no harm. She asks, are some diagnoses 0:05:57.582 --> 0:06:01.302 doing more harm than good? So O'Sullivan writes that we 0:06:01.861 --> 0:06:05.861 are not getting sicker, we are attributing more to sickness. 0:06:06.301 --> 0:06:09.581 And medically, when you're getting a diagnosis, it's supposed to 0:06:09.702 --> 0:06:13.421 lead to something. The problem with over diagnosis, in her view, 0:06:13.621 --> 0:06:16.101 is that it can lead to over treatment. We can 0:06:16.181 --> 0:06:22.022 actively create illness and distress, which potentially wastes limited resources 0:06:22.022 --> 0:06:24.701 that could be used for those who are in greater neat. 0:06:24.741 --> 0:06:27.541 Jesse, can I just ask you that quote that's very 0:06:28.301 --> 0:06:30.702 makes absolute sense, but just to expand it a bit more. 0:06:30.741 --> 0:06:33.662 When she says we're not getting sicker, we're attributing more 0:06:33.662 --> 0:06:37.222 to sickness. That means that if there's a certain behavior 0:06:37.381 --> 0:06:40.902 or symptom that you're living with, people were always living 0:06:40.941 --> 0:06:43.262 with it. But now we will say, oh, that's because 0:06:43.301 --> 0:06:45.101 I'm diagnosed with blah. 0:06:44.782 --> 0:06:50.501 Yes, and so we're getting cancers earlier. Pre diabetes is something. 0:06:50.501 --> 0:06:54.261 We've lowered the threshold for pre diabetes, so more people 0:06:54.342 --> 0:06:57.502 understand themselves to be living with illness. And I will 0:06:57.541 --> 0:07:00.701 say there are particular fields where I think there really 0:07:00.902 --> 0:07:03.742 is a rise. But what she is saying is that broadly, 0:07:04.181 --> 0:07:07.702 we've medicalized a lot of things for better, and she 0:07:07.821 --> 0:07:10.742 says in some cases for worse. So one story she 0:07:10.782 --> 0:07:13.182 tells is about a woman who was told she had 0:07:13.182 --> 0:07:16.542 a fifty percent chance of developing Huntington's disease, which is 0:07:16.582 --> 0:07:21.422 a genetic degenerative disorder. Very quickly, she started to notice 0:07:21.422 --> 0:07:25.902 the symptoms, cognitive, unusual body movements. Over time it got worse, 0:07:25.941 --> 0:07:28.462 and finally when she thought, you know, this is as 0:07:28.462 --> 0:07:30.742 bad as it's going to get, she got tested and 0:07:31.182 --> 0:07:35.022 she tested negative. She didn't have it, And we underestimate. 0:07:35.182 --> 0:07:38.182 This is O'Sullivan's point, what the brain does when given 0:07:38.182 --> 0:07:42.302 a diagnosis. I saw an example of this on Instagram recently. 0:07:42.422 --> 0:07:44.862 It was a mum. She's a very kind of famous 0:07:44.982 --> 0:07:48.381 figure and mum talk and on Instagram and she was 0:07:48.422 --> 0:07:51.101 doing this thing I think you too will relate where 0:07:51.142 --> 0:07:53.862 you're cleaning your house and you stop for a minute 0:07:53.982 --> 0:07:56.141 and you look at something and you kind of drift 0:07:56.182 --> 0:07:58.742 off into space. And she put this funny video up 0:07:58.782 --> 0:07:59.901 and said, does anyone relate? 0:08:00.062 --> 0:08:00.302 Right? 0:08:00.782 --> 0:08:03.502 And I went through the comments and there were comments saying, 0:08:03.582 --> 0:08:06.982 you've had an absence seizure, this is dissociation. You need 0:08:07.022 --> 0:08:09.821 to take this video to your doctor. And I thought 0:08:10.222 --> 0:08:12.702 if I was a doctor and people were coming to 0:08:12.742 --> 0:08:15.662 me with videos like this, which was fine. She came 0:08:15.702 --> 0:08:17.302 out of it and everything was fine. Are we just 0:08:17.422 --> 0:08:22.342 pathologizing quite normal human experiences, Holly? Obviously we're not doctors. 0:08:22.422 --> 0:08:25.422 Maya Friedman is a known doctor, but she's not here today, 0:08:26.022 --> 0:08:28.662 and so any questions people have about their actual health 0:08:28.702 --> 0:08:33.062 obviously go and see a professional. But having listened to 0:08:33.102 --> 0:08:36.342 some interviews with O'Sullivan, do you see some of the 0:08:36.342 --> 0:08:39.422 potential downsides of living in the age of diagnosis? 0:08:39.622 --> 0:08:43.342 I do. I listened to an interview with Susann O'Sullivan 0:08:43.622 --> 0:08:47.222 on Armchair Expert that was really interesting. And it has 0:08:47.302 --> 0:08:50.142 to be said that she is she's Irish. I don't 0:08:50.142 --> 0:08:53.142 know why that suddenly somehow makes her seem more is 0:08:53.222 --> 0:08:54.462 so reasonable to me, But. 0:08:54.502 --> 0:08:56.262 She's Irish, does you know what it does? 0:08:56.302 --> 0:08:59.262 She's a doctor with an Irish accent, and she is 0:08:59.302 --> 0:09:03.982 so beautifully nuanced on this Because my first instinct, when 0:09:04.542 --> 0:09:06.622 Jesse you mentioned a while ago that you really wanted 0:09:06.622 --> 0:09:09.222 to talk about this on the show, my first instinct 0:09:09.302 --> 0:09:11.502 is of defensiveness, and I just need to kind of 0:09:11.542 --> 0:09:13.462 explain why so we can get that out of the 0:09:13.502 --> 0:09:15.261 way for this conversation, because I'm sure a lot of 0:09:15.262 --> 0:09:18.182 people listening will feel the same. Very often, when people 0:09:18.222 --> 0:09:20.302 talk about how we live in an age of overdiagnosis, 0:09:20.382 --> 0:09:23.782 they're often talking about kids. They're often talking about parents 0:09:23.822 --> 0:09:27.302 who are seeking diagnoses for their kids for various things, 0:09:27.342 --> 0:09:31.982 And there's almost this tone of conversation that, for obvious reasons, 0:09:32.262 --> 0:09:35.902 really presses buttons in me, which is a suggestion that 0:09:36.062 --> 0:09:42.022 parents are lazy, looking for shortcuts, want to medicate their 0:09:42.102 --> 0:09:45.862 children so they're easier to handle. Just like the identity 0:09:46.022 --> 0:09:48.222 of somehow having a child with the special conduct that 0:09:48.982 --> 0:09:52.182 kind of conversation is a real thing, and it exists, 0:09:52.582 --> 0:09:55.822 and I want us to put that aside for this conversation, right, 0:09:55.862 --> 0:09:59.742 because that's not really what Susann O'Sullivan is talking about. 0:09:59.782 --> 0:10:02.262 She does talk a little bit about childhood diagnosis, but 0:10:02.342 --> 0:10:07.022 she's talking more specifically about well, all of us, but 0:10:07.102 --> 0:10:10.262 adults in the purpose of this conversation, who are over 0:10:10.382 --> 0:10:14.502 diagnosed or seeking diagnosis for things that maybe once we 0:10:14.542 --> 0:10:15.622 would have just lived with. 0:10:15.822 --> 0:10:16.022 Right. 0:10:16.062 --> 0:10:18.142 That's kind of the yes, yeah, and whether that's a 0:10:18.142 --> 0:10:21.822 good thing or not, and pushing back slightly against the 0:10:21.862 --> 0:10:24.222 mainstream view that of course it's a good thing, because 0:10:24.262 --> 0:10:26.102 on the surface of it, when you listen to this, 0:10:26.182 --> 0:10:27.822 you think, well, of course it's a good thing that 0:10:27.862 --> 0:10:31.702 we now know what the signals the spikes of diabetes 0:10:31.782 --> 0:10:34.222 might be, and so prediagnosis is great, or that we're 0:10:34.222 --> 0:10:37.902 catching cancers earlier. We all have people in our lives 0:10:37.942 --> 0:10:40.862 who are around because they caught cancer earlier, so that 0:10:41.022 --> 0:10:45.822 seems really true. Her point about anything negative is kind 0:10:45.862 --> 0:10:48.862 of saying that it can be debilitating. Am I right? 0:10:49.102 --> 0:10:50.582 That's kind of what she's saying. 0:10:50.382 --> 0:10:52.462 Yes, and can we do anything about it? 0:10:52.542 --> 0:10:52.702 Yeah? 0:10:52.742 --> 0:10:55.902 What's the purpose of a diagnosis if there's nothing? Her 0:10:55.982 --> 0:10:57.022 as a doctor can do about it. 0:10:57.062 --> 0:10:59.942 Yeah, So she was saying that she thinks a diagnosis 0:10:59.982 --> 0:11:04.582 is worth seeking if whatever you're living with is debilitating 0:11:04.662 --> 0:11:08.062 to you, is really affecting your life in a negative way. 0:11:08.502 --> 0:11:11.102 And that's kind of a bit of a similar prediagnosis 0:11:11.142 --> 0:11:13.502 that you often talk about addiction. Right, how do you 0:11:13.542 --> 0:11:15.942 know if you're drinking too much or whatever, is it 0:11:15.982 --> 0:11:18.022 impacting your life negative way? She sort of says, that 0:11:18.342 --> 0:11:22.902 is fair game. But if it's just to explain certain 0:11:23.422 --> 0:11:26.302 mysteries in your life that then might overtake you, she's 0:11:26.302 --> 0:11:28.982 saying that's not really a good thing, right, Yes. 0:11:29.102 --> 0:11:31.982 And there's another key distinction that I want to bring 0:11:32.062 --> 0:11:34.542 up that she talks about on that podcast, because I 0:11:34.622 --> 0:11:37.222 too felt wary about this topic, Holly, for all the 0:11:37.262 --> 0:11:39.742 reasons that you mentioned, And I think we have to 0:11:39.782 --> 0:11:43.302 be really careful when talking about it because a lot 0:11:43.302 --> 0:11:46.342 of people with for instance, long COVID or chronic LME 0:11:46.422 --> 0:11:49.782 disease might feel like they're not being believed. She talks 0:11:49.822 --> 0:11:54.062 about the idea that something can be psychosomatic that doesn't 0:11:54.102 --> 0:11:57.022 mean that you've made it up or that you're seeking attention. 0:11:57.542 --> 0:11:59.862 She uses the analogy of when you watch a horror 0:11:59.862 --> 0:12:03.542 film and your heart starts beating fast. Your heart really 0:12:03.662 --> 0:12:06.902 is beating fast. You are really also experiencing a sensation 0:12:06.982 --> 0:12:10.382 of your heart beating fast. That's a psycho somatic reaction. 0:12:10.582 --> 0:12:13.942 It's not something you're making up or seeking out for attention. 0:12:14.582 --> 0:12:16.502 And that was a real a harm moment for me 0:12:16.662 --> 0:12:19.742 in getting my head around this concept of over diagnosis, 0:12:19.782 --> 0:12:24.102 because when we talk about something being psychosomatic, it's real. 0:12:24.262 --> 0:12:27.222 It just means that sometimes a medical doctor might not 0:12:27.342 --> 0:12:29.342 be the right person to help you with it. 0:12:29.462 --> 0:12:33.582 And in fact it's often harder to address or to cure. 0:12:33.702 --> 0:12:35.142 Because I thought it was the same if I went 0:12:35.142 --> 0:12:37.982 to a doctor and they said to me that psychosomatic, 0:12:38.102 --> 0:12:40.782 I would hear you think I'm making this up. And 0:12:40.942 --> 0:12:43.742 what I loved about O'Sullivan talking about it is that 0:12:44.382 --> 0:12:46.342 I feel as though we're on the precipice of a 0:12:46.382 --> 0:12:50.102 lot of research being done in this space. So you know, 0:12:50.182 --> 0:12:53.142 for example, I am a fainter. I have fainted since 0:12:53.142 --> 0:12:56.102 I was a kid. I've been looking for a diagnosis 0:12:56.382 --> 0:12:58.822 to do with my fainting. I would love a diagnosis 0:12:59.022 --> 0:13:00.982 so that I can understand it, so that I can 0:13:01.022 --> 0:13:03.822 explain it to people, so that I can potentially treat it. 0:13:04.582 --> 0:13:06.902 I've had to go to a cardiologist and have my 0:13:06.982 --> 0:13:09.422 heart checked in a bunch of things, and that's always good. 0:13:09.622 --> 0:13:12.462 Want to rule things out. But that's what doctors often do, 0:13:12.582 --> 0:13:15.662 is they rule things out. Doctors often see patients that 0:13:15.702 --> 0:13:20.342 have unexplained whatever, like the weird things the human body 0:13:20.382 --> 0:13:24.262 does that don't fit into a diagnosis. And when I 0:13:24.262 --> 0:13:26.982 think about the fainting thing, I go, do I want 0:13:27.022 --> 0:13:30.381 my pain validated or my fear validated that this thing 0:13:30.422 --> 0:13:33.502 that happens to me when I'm out in public, when 0:13:33.862 --> 0:13:37.342 I've hit my head and I've really hurt myself. Sometimes 0:13:37.342 --> 0:13:40.302 what we can hear when we're not given a diagnosis 0:13:40.742 --> 0:13:44.742 or a really clear treatment plan is you don't believe 0:13:44.782 --> 0:13:48.062 my pain, or you're not listening to me. I realized 0:13:48.102 --> 0:13:50.742 through listening to O'Sullivan that that's not how medicine works. 0:13:50.782 --> 0:13:53.942 I think that I had a misunderstanding about how it worked. 0:13:54.102 --> 0:13:57.102 We wouldn't you like a cure for your fainting, because 0:13:57.582 --> 0:14:00.142 I think one of the things about this that's interesting 0:14:00.422 --> 0:14:02.702 is she sort of talks about how we all want answers, 0:14:03.222 --> 0:14:05.462 and of course we do, because we've all got to 0:14:05.462 --> 0:14:07.902 get on with our lives, right, I kind of feel 0:14:07.982 --> 0:14:10.942 like we don't thrive an uncertain Most of us have 0:14:10.982 --> 0:14:13.382 a choice to keep going. We've got like soldiering on 0:14:13.462 --> 0:14:15.942 isn't a choice, it's reality. We've got to keep working, 0:14:15.942 --> 0:14:17.902 we've got to keep parenting, we've got to keep caring, 0:14:17.942 --> 0:14:19.862 we've got to keep you know, doing whatever it is 0:14:19.902 --> 0:14:23.982 we're doing. So therefore any kind of solution or cure 0:14:24.662 --> 0:14:27.462 would be very welcome. And then the other part to this, 0:14:27.542 --> 0:14:29.382 of course, is that we live in a world where 0:14:29.382 --> 0:14:31.862 there is a pill or a supplement or a treatment 0:14:31.902 --> 0:14:35.982 plan for absolutely everything, and so we're also living with 0:14:36.062 --> 0:14:38.462 a lot of pressure, a lot of industries who are 0:14:38.462 --> 0:14:41.022 deeply invested in selling us a cure for whatever it 0:14:41.062 --> 0:14:43.862 is we've got. And although that sounds cynical, but if 0:14:43.902 --> 0:14:46.862 I was you, I don't think you're being indulgent to 0:14:46.982 --> 0:14:50.542 want to know why you keep fainting, considering the risks 0:14:50.622 --> 0:14:53.262 if you're fainting when you're you know, looking after your child, 0:14:53.382 --> 0:14:55.462 or as you said, fell and hit your head, wanting 0:14:55.462 --> 0:14:56.982 a cure for that isn't unreasonable. 0:14:57.062 --> 0:14:58.782 But why do I feel like it would be more 0:14:58.862 --> 0:15:01.462 valid condition if I had a name and there is 0:15:01.502 --> 0:15:04.102 something in me, and I don't think that that is 0:15:04.102 --> 0:15:06.502 a fault of the individual or of me. In fact, 0:15:06.742 --> 0:15:08.622 this is the way the system is set up, right. 0:15:08.702 --> 0:15:13.302 It's like from every from ndis to access to certain tests, 0:15:13.342 --> 0:15:16.942 to access to certain treatments. Necessarily, in a lot of 0:15:16.982 --> 0:15:21.862 ways you need diagnosis in order to be catered to 0:15:22.062 --> 0:15:24.542 by this system. So I think this has less to 0:15:24.542 --> 0:15:26.302 do with individuals and more to do with systems. 0:15:26.502 --> 0:15:29.102 What this also made me think about is, I'm sure 0:15:29.102 --> 0:15:32.822 we all know people for whom the connection between mind 0:15:32.862 --> 0:15:37.502 and body is really strong and visceral. For instance, I'm 0:15:37.542 --> 0:15:40.902 thinking of a family member of mine who gets stomach 0:15:40.982 --> 0:15:45.382 issues whenever he's nervous or anxious, and it happens like clockwork, 0:15:46.022 --> 0:15:49.022 and he's always been like that. And I think it's 0:15:49.102 --> 0:15:51.782 because for some people, mind and body are more linked 0:15:51.782 --> 0:15:54.942 than they are for other people. And maybe we should 0:15:54.942 --> 0:15:58.542 note at this point that this author is a neurologist. 0:15:58.702 --> 0:16:01.582 She is a medical doctor. She is not a well 0:16:01.622 --> 0:16:03.862 I guess by medical doctor, I mean to contrast it 0:16:03.902 --> 0:16:07.582 with a psychologist. She's not a psychologist, she's not even 0:16:07.622 --> 0:16:11.742 a psychiatrist. Maybe when you go to the cardiologists about 0:16:11.742 --> 0:16:14.422 your fainting. You do want the cardiologists to give you 0:16:14.462 --> 0:16:18.102 an answer. Yeah, maybe the answer is more in the 0:16:18.262 --> 0:16:21.622 psychosomatical mind realm than it is anything to do with, 0:16:21.662 --> 0:16:23.662 for instance, your heart. And that's why it can feel 0:16:23.662 --> 0:16:24.502 so frustrating. 0:16:24.782 --> 0:16:28.102 We know that women in particular have been understudied, right 0:16:28.182 --> 0:16:31.062 in medical terms, and often dismissed, and women are very 0:16:31.222 --> 0:16:36.182 used to living in like nondescript discomfort, right, we just 0:16:36.502 --> 0:16:39.102 are without conclusion, just the idea of like, of course 0:16:39.102 --> 0:16:41.142 it's normal that you should be in agony for several 0:16:41.222 --> 0:16:44.062 days a month or whatever it is. It's interesting to 0:16:44.102 --> 0:16:46.582 think that we're pushing that, Like we are now very 0:16:46.662 --> 0:16:49.702 much pushing that and saying no, we want answers to 0:16:49.742 --> 0:16:52.822 these things. Are we wrong to want answers to these things? 0:16:52.942 --> 0:16:54.542 Isn't that the way it should be? When we are 0:16:54.542 --> 0:16:57.262 pushing against a sort of a system that has always 0:16:57.262 --> 0:17:00.982 dismissed our discomfort and pain, it feels to me like 0:17:01.102 --> 0:17:03.622 it's the wrong way to go to go. Sure, we'll 0:17:03.662 --> 0:17:04.341 just deal with it. 0:17:04.502 --> 0:17:07.782 I'm comfortable with that being complicated a little bit. But 0:17:08.222 --> 0:17:10.621 I have a friend recent I was having a bunch 0:17:10.662 --> 0:17:13.181 of really really strange health issues and went to her 0:17:13.222 --> 0:17:15.501 doctor and asked for a number of tests, and this 0:17:15.542 --> 0:17:19.862 is becoming increasingly common people asking for tests. They've been empowered, 0:17:20.022 --> 0:17:22.742 they've done their own research, and you know, maybe they 0:17:22.742 --> 0:17:26.222 think that their GP won't necessarily understand where they're coming from. 0:17:26.702 --> 0:17:29.702 And she has a great GP, and the GP basically 0:17:29.782 --> 0:17:33.302 said to her, if we run these tests, we'll find things. 0:17:33.422 --> 0:17:35.861 We will absolutely find things. They're not going to be 0:17:35.901 --> 0:17:38.101 relevant or helpful. They're not going to be things that 0:17:38.141 --> 0:17:41.821 we can address. For example, if you were to scan 0:17:41.901 --> 0:17:45.861 the brain of someone in their sixties or seventies, you 0:17:45.942 --> 0:17:49.461 might find that there have been mini strokes. There's not 0:17:49.821 --> 0:17:52.821 really anything you can do about that. And for every 0:17:52.901 --> 0:17:56.861 test that you do, there is funding to cost money. 0:17:57.581 --> 0:18:01.181 There is the psychological impact on the person who hears 0:18:01.222 --> 0:18:05.821 the result. There's the age of diagnosis and people on 0:18:06.222 --> 0:18:09.381 the fringes or with maybe not as severe symptoms getting 0:18:09.381 --> 0:18:13.621 those diagnoses. There are people who really need resources and 0:18:13.782 --> 0:18:16.861 help who are not being served. And to consider the 0:18:17.222 --> 0:18:20.262 medical system as something that is finite, like there's a 0:18:20.302 --> 0:18:23.542 cost to every test, every consultation. And I think that 0:18:23.542 --> 0:18:26.942 that's important too, that we've got overdiagnosis. At the same 0:18:26.982 --> 0:18:29.421 time as underdiagnosis, and that's what's complicated. 0:18:29.782 --> 0:18:33.901 And also presumably there's a socioeconomic split in the people 0:18:33.901 --> 0:18:36.621 who are walking into their doctors and saying I want 0:18:36.661 --> 0:18:38.502 this test and this test and this test because a 0:18:38.621 --> 0:18:40.381 they can afford them if they have to, but also 0:18:40.422 --> 0:18:42.262 they've had the time and resources to go away and 0:18:42.262 --> 0:18:44.302 do all their research and decide what's wrong with them. 0:18:44.621 --> 0:18:47.421 I also think that we think that doctors are magicians 0:18:47.502 --> 0:18:50.981 onlind readers, and they really aren't. So one thing that 0:18:51.022 --> 0:18:53.501 I've realized being married to a doctor is that whenever 0:18:53.542 --> 0:18:56.262 we go anywhere, someone will pull him aside and talk 0:18:56.262 --> 0:18:59.142 about a rash or some kind of illness or ailment 0:18:59.222 --> 0:19:02.141 they have and want his answer for what's wrong. And 0:19:02.182 --> 0:19:04.902 what he typically says is I don't want to engage 0:19:04.942 --> 0:19:07.261 with you on this right now, A, because rashes are 0:19:07.262 --> 0:19:09.941 grows and we're eating dinner. But be go owing to 0:19:09.982 --> 0:19:13.222 the doctor is a data point for doctors. So if 0:19:13.262 --> 0:19:15.061 you go to the doctor, you are saying, this rash 0:19:15.182 --> 0:19:17.982 or this ailment has become so intrusive into my life 0:19:17.982 --> 0:19:19.781 that I need to do something about it. I need 0:19:19.821 --> 0:19:22.302 to take this inconvenient step of going to the doctor 0:19:22.302 --> 0:19:25.101 and explaining it to the doctor and paying the doctor 0:19:25.141 --> 0:19:27.782 and so on. If you just grab someone who you've 0:19:27.821 --> 0:19:30.142 met on the street and say, hey, I've got this rash, 0:19:30.222 --> 0:19:32.621 can you fix it for me? It's not interfering with 0:19:32.661 --> 0:19:35.021 your life enough that you've gone to the doctor about it. 0:19:35.462 --> 0:19:38.902 And I think that illustrates this idea that like they 0:19:38.942 --> 0:19:40.542 think that he can just kind of look at them 0:19:40.542 --> 0:19:43.341 and figure out what's wrong, but he needs the data 0:19:43.381 --> 0:19:45.942 point of I came to the doctor about this, this 0:19:46.022 --> 0:19:48.981 is really bothering me now, and that's in itself an 0:19:49.061 --> 0:19:52.262 indication to him of the pain level, the discomfort level, 0:19:52.341 --> 0:19:54.662 and then he can act from there, because it's very 0:19:54.661 --> 0:19:57.102 difficult for them to tell how much pain we're in, 0:19:57.182 --> 0:19:59.181 what sort of pain we're in. We're very bad at 0:19:59.661 --> 0:20:01.941