Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mama Ma I
Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that
Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 2: I can always have moments of like absolute insane happiness,
Speaker 2: because that's who I am. But it's very inconsistent and
Speaker 2: it's very unstable, and the drops are so so dark
Speaker 2: that for now my happy's aren't as happy, but my
Speaker 2: sad's Arena's sad.
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to But are you Happy? This is
Speaker 1: the podcast that ask the questions you've always wanted to
Speaker 1: know from the people who appear to have it all.
Speaker 1: I'm Klas Stevens and today's guest Steph Tisdall is somebody
Speaker 1: you might know from her viral stand up comedy. You
Speaker 1: might also know her from her roles on TV shows
Speaker 1: like Total Control and Bump, or from movies like Class
Speaker 1: of Seven and Lovers in the Air, or for her
Speaker 1: writing for TV on the award winning comedy fisk on
Speaker 1: Bump and her debut young adult book The Skin I'm In.
Speaker 1: She had me laughing before and after this conversation. She's
Speaker 1: exceptionally warm, but it's also one of the most emotionally
Speaker 1: raw conversations I've had on this show and it really
Speaker 1: really stuck with me. She was a rising star in
Speaker 1: comedy and on stage she was being applauded by sold
Speaker 1: out audiences. She was a golden girl of Australian comedy,
Speaker 1: and then behind the scenes she was living a very
Speaker 1: different life where she was in an abusive relationship with
Speaker 1: someone who isolated her and financially abused her and knew
Speaker 1: exactly how to pinpoint her vulnerabilities to hurt her. And
Speaker 1: she is incredibly insightful about how certain types of people
Speaker 1: can capitalize on your kindness and empathy. I asked her
Speaker 1: about the tension as a First Nations woman of creating
Speaker 1: comedy for two different audiences, one which is her own
Speaker 1: community and one which is the rest of Australia. We
Speaker 1: talk about some pretty heavy topics in this conversation, so
Speaker 1: I'm going to pop some links in the show notes
Speaker 1: for anyone who needs support. We start our conversation where
Speaker 1: I like to start all the conversations on this show,
Speaker 1: by asking if Steph had a happy childhood. I want
Speaker 1: to start with how you grew up and whether you
Speaker 1: grew up in a happy family, because this podcast is
Speaker 1: all about happiness and I wonder how the way your
Speaker 1: life started kind of informed your approach to happiness.
Speaker 2: Okay, I think it depends what you define happiness as. Obviously,
Speaker 2: I grew up with a lot of privilege. I grew
Speaker 2: up with never wanting for anything material or financial, but
Speaker 2: maybe other things emotional needs. Not that I was neglected
Speaker 2: at all, It's just I was the youngest of four kids,
Speaker 2: and my parents were really, really, really busy to make
Speaker 2: sure they could provide us with stuff. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 2: really even know how to answer that. I loved my childhood,
Speaker 2: but I also recognize that there are some mental.
Speaker 3: Health issues that I have probably as a result.
Speaker 2: But I think that's pretty normal and I wouldn't ever
Speaker 2: want to make it seem anything other than privileged.
Speaker 1: What was your biggest challenge to happiness growing up? What
Speaker 1: do you kind of remember was the thing that made
Speaker 1: you not be able to fully lean into enjoying everything.
Speaker 2: I think from the outside, my family was perfect, and
Speaker 2: I think it was a lot of pressure. I think
Speaker 2: I'm very different from the rest of my family in
Speaker 2: that I'm a creative and an incredibly emotional person. I'm
Speaker 2: the only girl, and I think there was a lot
Speaker 2: of don't be like that. I think that was the
Speaker 2: biggest issue that I had. I also think my parents
Speaker 2: had a really interesting dynamic. We were just raised to
Speaker 2: be the best children and put everybody else first, And
Speaker 2: as a result, I've been in a lot of very
Speaker 2: damaging relationship I think with friends, with you know, partners,
Speaker 2: because I wanted to see the best and am used
Speaker 2: to taking that role of I will nurture, nurture, nurture,
Speaker 2: and my feelings don't matter.
Speaker 1: And so do you think you leaving that environment in
Speaker 1: relationships and in friendships? Are you expecting the best from people?
Speaker 1: Like do you think you're putting that on to other
Speaker 1: people or do you think that you're just used to
Speaker 1: not prioritizing yourself.
Speaker 3: I'm not really sure.
Speaker 2: I think I have that stereotypical I want to fix everyone.
Speaker 2: It's been really hard to kind of unloan that because
Speaker 2: I'm not a dumb person. And you go, you kind
Speaker 2: of go, yeah, But the reason I'm making these decisions
Speaker 2: is because I have the capacity and I know that
Speaker 2: I have the capacity and the insight and the softness
Speaker 2: to allow people to be a little broken something. So
Speaker 2: you go, no, no, no, it's fine, It's different. I need
Speaker 2: to love somebody unconditionally because they haven't been shown that before.
Speaker 2: But the problem is that actually there is such thing
Speaker 2: as people just being wankers?
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: And yeah, I make too many excuses for people, and
Speaker 2: then wonder how the fuck I ended up where I
Speaker 2: ended up.
Speaker 1: Did you grow up with any because just from what
Speaker 1: I'm hearing from that, I wonder if you grew up
Speaker 1: with any religion or spirituality, because there is this idea,
Speaker 1: that unconditional love thing. I know from a Catholic background
Speaker 1: that I find it hard to differentiate between the two.
Speaker 1: That you're meant to love unconditionally and you are meant
Speaker 1: to see the absolute best in people, and everybody is
Speaker 1: see God in everyone, But then there's people who don't
Speaker 1: have your best interest in it. And I have no
Speaker 1: idea how those two things co exist.
Speaker 3: I don't either.
Speaker 2: It mean the hardest thing, I definitely didn't grow up
Speaker 2: with religion. I just I think I grew up with
Speaker 2: a lot of different perspectives and this kind of attitude
Speaker 2: that never ever take the simple, one dimensional answer.
Speaker 3: We were always kind.
Speaker 2: Of encouraged to delve deep and figure out why somebody
Speaker 2: would do something which you know, in hindsight or with therapy,
Speaker 2: I recognized was I wasn't allowed to have a feeling.
Speaker 3: But at the.
Speaker 2: Time it kind of makes you feel smart, right as
Speaker 2: a kid to be like, oh, that's all right, they
Speaker 2: were just feeling this. But yeah, a lot of damaging
Speaker 2: people in my life as a result of going because
Speaker 2: I know where it's coming from, or because I feel
Speaker 2: I know better, I have to forgive this and cop this.
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm in therapy. Who isn't anybody who's
Speaker 2: worth talking to is you know? Yeah, And one of
Speaker 2: the things that my therapist is trying to teach me
Speaker 2: it's like, you're allowed to set boundaries and I go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: but you've got to let somebody you know, Like yeah,
Speaker 2: so I really didn't expect childhood stuff.
Speaker 3: This was a real shock to me. Like I've sorry, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: it's fine. No, it's because I didn't want to be prepared.
Speaker 2: But as somebody who's very openly vulnerable, I feel like
Speaker 2: that's maybe the one area that I'm not.
Speaker 3: So it's like, interesting, I've gone real serious.
Speaker 1: And I think even people who had incredibly privileged childhoods,
Speaker 1: it really does inform your relationship with happiness because you
Speaker 1: might have a parent who struggled with their own mental health.
Speaker 1: You might have a dynamic that wasn't always good for
Speaker 1: prioritizing your own happiness. Yeah, you've just released your first
Speaker 1: novel or the skin I'm in, and before the book begins,
Speaker 1: you have a page that reads, this book was written
Speaker 1: on the back of the hardest years of my life
Speaker 1: to date, an escape and catharsis to unpack some of
Speaker 1: the demons that come with struggling with identity and finding
Speaker 1: your place in the world. Can you explain that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Oh, man, So at the time I was going through, like,
Speaker 2: I'm a completely different person than I was, say, four
Speaker 2: years ago. I was leaving a relationship that was very
Speaker 2: abusive and very scary to leave, and I was doing
Speaker 2: it while my career was blowing up, and it was terrifying.
Speaker 2: I was so burnt out, I was so busy, and
Speaker 2: then I was just being harassed and threatened and my
Speaker 2: livelihood was being threatened and I had to was just
Speaker 2: before I started filming Total Control, which was like my
Speaker 2: big sort of breakout thing, and I had to call
Speaker 2: up the producers and say I need to come down
Speaker 2: to Sydney. Early because I might get murdered. And I
Speaker 2: go on to set I've never really done before, and
Speaker 2: people are touching your face, you know, the whole time,
Speaker 2: and you're so surrounded by people, and it was like great.
Speaker 3: It was the biggest break for me.
Speaker 2: But I would come back to my hotel and just
Speaker 2: see emails upon emails upon emails and have to go
Speaker 2: to the police and be like, Okay, he's breached the
Speaker 2: DVO and just the emotional turmoil of everything, and you
Speaker 2: know that it's going to happen, and then you think
Speaker 2: it won't, but you can't figure out why you keep
Speaker 2: on staying and then when you finally go, you go, oh,
Speaker 2: it's worse than I thought.
Speaker 3: And I'm lucky.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really hard to talk about because I
Speaker 2: always feel like I'm lucky because he didn't hit me.
Speaker 2: But the more that I listen and learn, I go,
Speaker 2: this was fucking exactly what coercive control is. And I
Speaker 2: had no idea who I was at the end of it,
Speaker 2: and I didn't have a second to stop and think
Speaker 2: about who I was, and so I was isolated and
Speaker 2: I was sort of stepping into this new world and
Speaker 2: it's like you both want to talk about it and
Speaker 2: not talk about it and laugh about it and not
Speaker 2: laugh about it. And yeah, and while that was happening,
Speaker 2: some I guess difficult stuff happened in my career, and
Speaker 2: even like, I don't think it would have been a
Speaker 2: problem at all had I not already been going through that.
Speaker 2: But when you do what you love and you are
Speaker 2: doing it because you have a goal in mind, nobody
Speaker 2: tells you how weird it feels when people know who
Speaker 2: you are and how much because I'm a really authentic person,
Speaker 2: and how hard it is to know how much to
Speaker 2: give and how how much you may.
Speaker 3: Open yourself up to shit. Yeah, it was a really
Speaker 3: hard time.
Speaker 2: And then at the end of it, I ended up
Speaker 2: doing another show with all of these queer women and
Speaker 2: they're like, I'm pretty sure your queer stuff and I
Speaker 2: was like, no, I'm not, and that I went, oh, no,
Speaker 2: I probably am. Yeah, So like it was weird, like
Speaker 2: it just one year I dated man and the next
Speaker 2: year dated women and it was you know that it
Speaker 2: was a hard time and it was like a re
Speaker 2: teenagehood and I had to like of go, fucking hell,
Speaker 2: how much did I hate myself to let this person
Speaker 2: treat me like this for so long without ever honestly
Speaker 2: believing I deserved better than that.
Speaker 1: Do you think it was a process of things starting
Speaker 1: really really small, so it was almost imperceptible, that coercive control,
Speaker 1: and then getting to the point like when you say
Speaker 1: somebody's contacting you constantly and breaching dbos. Was it so
Speaker 1: small that it was almost just like it starts and
Speaker 1: then by the time it gets to that, it's been
Speaker 1: so gradual that you think it's normal.
Speaker 3: Do you know what?
Speaker 2: No, I think that's probably the case for a lot
Speaker 2: of people. When I look back, I go, what the
Speaker 2: fuck did I do? It was so obvious so soon.
Speaker 2: It really fucked me up because I recognized that I
Speaker 2: don't think I cared what I thought about who I did,
Speaker 2: and I just wanted to be loved, and the male
Speaker 2: gaze was so important to me, and I just wanted intimacy.
Speaker 2: I wanted children, so I really wanted to have kids
Speaker 2: with him, which I'm so fucking glad that I didn't,
Speaker 2: but like, I just wanted to be accepted.
Speaker 3: Honestly, I look back and I go, I do not
Speaker 3: know how I.
Speaker 2: Ever thought that that was acceptable, even the first time
Speaker 2: that I told him that I loved him, was oh,
Speaker 2: it makes me sick thinking back, like, it makes me
Speaker 2: really sad for the version of me that.
Speaker 3: Would have accepted that.
Speaker 2: I just thought he was so beautiful, you know. And
Speaker 2: I said to him because I just saw a sadness
Speaker 2: in his eyes that I recognized, I think, And I
Speaker 2: was like, you're so beautiful.
Speaker 3: What are you doing with me? You could have anyone?
Speaker 3: And he's like, oh, no, you know. I was like, no,
Speaker 3: I look at you, and.
Speaker 2: He goes, okay, So look, yeah, if we asked ten
Speaker 2: people on the street if they found you attractive, maybe one,
Speaker 2: maybe two would say yes, and then the majority wouldn't.
Speaker 2: But at least I think you're beautiful. And I was like,
Speaker 2: I love you. That was my first time that I
Speaker 2: told him I loved him, because I just I need
Speaker 2: that so badly. I mean, by the end of it,
Speaker 2: a lot of isolation. But I was also paying our
Speaker 2: rent and our bills, paying him a wage. He just
Speaker 2: had his finger in every pie, you know. And my
Speaker 2: friends always laughed me like, Steph, I don't even think
Speaker 2: he likes you.
Speaker 3: I don't know that he just he hates you, Like
Speaker 3: this is a man who does not like you.
Speaker 2: But I was just scared to leave him because because
Speaker 2: I knew that he was wrong, And it was like,
Speaker 2: did I actually stay because my own ego and pride?
Speaker 2: And it's like, yeah, when somebody takes away everything else,
Speaker 2: you'll stay just to go. He'll realize soon that that's
Speaker 2: not This isn't okay. It's really odd.
Speaker 1: What I find really interesting is even you talk me
Speaker 1: about your childhood and then talking about this sometimes I
Speaker 1: almost think profound empathy can be a curse because you
Speaker 1: talk about that sadness that you saw in his eyes,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure it was there. And when you can
Speaker 1: look at anyone and see their pain and see who
Speaker 1: they are, it's then really hard to look at them
Speaker 1: and say objectively you're doing the wrong thing because you
Speaker 1: do gymnastics to work out their motivation. No, actually they're
Speaker 1: right because I did this. And it's this weird thing
Speaker 1: where empathy has to stop somewhere. It's weird.
Speaker 2: I agree, Like that's been the hardest thing in the
Speaker 2: with therapy afterwards toos, it's like, yeah, but if you
Speaker 2: can understand where somebody's coming from, or like if you
Speaker 2: know that they don't see what they're doing, because they
Speaker 2: have this gap in their understanding. Then you've got a
Speaker 2: gift you can offer them, and it say no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: they don't.
Speaker 3: Want to change.
Speaker 2: And also the thing that I think I really struggled
Speaker 2: with was some people are sociopathic. Like of course, like
Speaker 2: I was earning good money by the time that I
Speaker 2: left him. I don't know anymore, but I was for
Speaker 2: a time. Because acting is much harder than comedy. You
Speaker 2: wouldn't have thought that, out of the two, comedy was
Speaker 2: the money maker.
Speaker 3: But anyway, but like I.
Speaker 2: Think he saw in me an ambitious but insecure woman,
Speaker 2: you know, who wanted approve all. Yeah, I think I
Speaker 2: was right for the picking, you know. And I think, though,
Speaker 2: what is difficult. I had a therapy session last week
Speaker 2: where my therapist said I was saying to her that
Speaker 2: somebody that I was talking to set a boundary and
Speaker 2: they weren't mad at me. And I was like, why
Speaker 2: why aren't they mad at me? She's like, because just
Speaker 2: letting you know that's a boundary. And I was like,
Speaker 2: but I've obviously done something wrong. She's like, no, that's
Speaker 2: not And I said, now I need to know what
Speaker 2: that I can't settle, And they must be hiding something
Speaker 2: from me. And she said, feel more comfortable with anger,
Speaker 2: and I said, because I know how to react to
Speaker 2: anger in a way that makes me feel softer or
Speaker 2: reinforces my own sense of self, which is soft, kind, whatever,
Speaker 2: And what a fucked thing.
Speaker 1: And it's hard to know when somebody said a boundary
Speaker 1: with you, they're actually not angry with you, and they're
Speaker 1: not angry with you because they've set the boundary. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's like, no, this is actually a really safe relation.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, but it doesn't feel like that, yeah,
Speaker 3: one hundred percent. Because then I was like, what do
Speaker 3: I need to fit like?
Speaker 2: And that Yeah, my therapist was like, do you feel
Speaker 2: better being in fix it mode? And I was like,
Speaker 2: fucking don't.
Speaker 1: Do this today.
Speaker 3: But it's true, like there's a level of.
Speaker 2: Control if you're somebody who you know, like the part
Speaker 2: of me that I identify with outwardly, or the one
Speaker 2: thing that I want people to know about me above
Speaker 2: anything else, you know, like the biggest compliment that you
Speaker 2: could give me is that I'm kind, Do you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? I want to be kind because that's
Speaker 2: all I've ever wanted to be. And so it's like
Speaker 2: if I don't feel like I'm being the kindest person
Speaker 2: in the whole world or in the room or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, that that can erode at such a weird thing.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't feel kind to look at someone and
Speaker 1: think you're.
Speaker 3: A sociopath one hundred.
Speaker 1: But you have to because those people exist. They just do.
Speaker 1: And there's a lot that wouldn't be happening in the
Speaker 1: world if they weren't sociopaths.
Speaker 3: They're just.
Speaker 2: H and it's it's so hard, hey, And but like
Speaker 2: my dad is the world's kindest man, like to his detriment, right,
Speaker 2: And one time we went out for dinner and like,
Speaker 2: this was like the last big fight that I have
Speaker 2: with my dad. We don't fight, we're really close, but
Speaker 2: we had a big fight because we went to dinner
Speaker 2: and I, for some unknown reasons, I don't even eat fish,
Speaker 2: but I ordered fish and chips and they brought out
Speaker 2: the wrong thing. They brought out like a steamed fish,
Speaker 2: and I was like, absolutely.
Speaker 1: Not, I'm not going to be eating yeah, and then.
Speaker 2: Dad was like, we're not sending it back, Steff, I'll
Speaker 2: eat it. And I went, Dad, you're not even allowed
Speaker 2: to eat fish. He's like allergic to fish, and I
Speaker 2: was like, like, no, I could just ask for that
Speaker 2: isn't what I ordered, And he's like, do not take
Speaker 2: it back? And we had a fight because he got
Speaker 2: up me and I thought, like, we're allowed to ask
Speaker 2: for the other thing.
Speaker 1: Yes, we're actually allowed, actually allowed, and it's okay, and
Speaker 1: no one's going to cry and no one's going to
Speaker 1: hate us.
Speaker 2: But man, there was a big fight at the table
Speaker 2: that line, and he was very unhappy that I didn't
Speaker 2: eat that steamed fish that looked disgusting.
Speaker 1: You know that you didn't order us Exactly exactly after
Speaker 1: the break, Steph and I talk about the joke that
Speaker 1: made her quit comedy. I have a theory that the
Speaker 1: world lies to us a bit about happiness and that
Speaker 1: often the moments that externally look the happiest internally or not.
Speaker 1: And to me, it sounds like you had that experience
Speaker 1: coming up in where on the outside you were seriously
Speaker 1: Australia's Findings comedian. Everybody was just obsessed and you were
Speaker 1: so confident and so charismatic, and you're on stage and
Speaker 1: you're doing TV and looks like things couldn't go better,
Speaker 1: and then behind the scenes you're going through something so hard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I didn't think i'd survive it, like the
Speaker 2: whole thing. And I'm not just talking about from his
Speaker 2: end either, I'm talking about from me. It was the
Speaker 2: hardest time in my life, and you become this needy, desperate,
Speaker 2: like childlike version of yourself.
Speaker 3: I feel really emotional when you leave because you.
Speaker 2: Like have to restore all of your old relationships. And yeah,
Speaker 2: it was kind of new that I was in a
Speaker 2: position where I was doing so well, so all of
Speaker 2: my even people quite close to me, like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: look at you blow them up, you know, and you
Speaker 2: just go. I literally I feel ungrateful to talk about
Speaker 2: how fucking hard this is. And the better that my
Speaker 2: career was going, the more I felt that I deserved
Speaker 2: what was happening, because do you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 2: I didn't want to feel like, oh on now, I
Speaker 2: think I'm better than that. This is what I am.
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, I also think
Speaker 2: that like the way that we sort of portray success
Speaker 2: publicly on screen or whatever, including on social media, is
Speaker 2: so fucked because there's only two things that make somebody successful.
Speaker 2: I think it's hard work and emotional intelligence.
Speaker 3: That's it. Like anybody can do it, do you know
Speaker 3: what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can't. Interestingly, there are two things you
Speaker 1: can't see in a photo or a video or whatever.
Speaker 3: You also can't teach them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I am always surprised by people.
Speaker 2: That I meet that I look up to, and I go, oh,
Speaker 2: it's not these things that I have in my head
Speaker 2: of like odds because they're beautiful. It's because of oh
Speaker 2: they grew up here or they had this privilege.
Speaker 3: It's not.
Speaker 2: It's like people who know how to make everyone feel
Speaker 2: safe in the space. Well women, I don't know, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of fuck Menah.
Speaker 1: But who you mean? You go, how the hell did
Speaker 1: you get there? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: But like a lot of the women that I've met,
Speaker 2: I go, oh, you know how to make people feel.
Speaker 1: I love that. That's actually really profound. And the hard
Speaker 1: work and emotional intelligence, the hard work element I completely
Speaker 1: agree with and have thought that you look at anybody,
Speaker 1: and as somebody who can be quite cynical, I can
Speaker 1: look at people and be like, oh, yeah, you're there
Speaker 1: because like you've got that fucker face yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, and you kind of dismiss like you're there
Speaker 1: because of even like you can dismiss things in so
Speaker 1: many different ways about why people have what they have,
Speaker 1: whenever you get close to it, you see, oh you
Speaker 1: actually do I have anything without hard work. It's very
Speaker 1: hard to stumble up with without any hard work. And
Speaker 1: then emotional intelligence. That's very, very very true. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: something you notice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I remember the first time that I met
Speaker 2: This is such a weird person to bring up because
Speaker 2: it's not the most famous person that I've met.
Speaker 3: She's just had this like I don't know.
Speaker 2: She was on my TV when I was a teenager,
Speaker 2: you know, Caitlin Stacy.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes, I've met her and.
Speaker 3: I was like, what's she gonna be like?
Speaker 2: And she's fucking the smartest person I've ever met, like
Speaker 2: and hard working.
Speaker 1: And that was kind of after you were doing comedy
Speaker 1: doing really well. Would you say you quit comedy for acting?
Speaker 1: And why did you quit comedy?
Speaker 3: Because comedy was going to put me in the grave.
Speaker 3: It's the hardest thing.
Speaker 2: It's the hardest because this is this is how I
Speaker 2: always explain it. It's the most vulnerable thing you'll ever
Speaker 2: do in the least intimate setting. I tell secrets on
Speaker 2: stage that I haven't told my closest friends, you know.
Speaker 2: And it's also incredibly lonely. I never fit in with
Speaker 2: other comedians, mostly because they're just a.
Speaker 3: Lot cooler than me. Like I'm not a cool person.
Speaker 1: I'd have no idea what to expect.
Speaker 2: No, I mean like that makes it sound like I'm
Speaker 2: shitting on them. I'm not like they're great, but like
Speaker 2: I don't know how to banter. I want a D
Speaker 2: and M and I want to have an emotional yarn
Speaker 2: and I also I was having a different experience to
Speaker 2: the people that I was performing with, Like I went
Speaker 2: on tour, for example, I did the Melbourne Comedy Festival
Speaker 2: road show and it used to drive me nuts because
Speaker 2: I was always performing with straight white men. But we
Speaker 2: get to somewhere and when you're a person of color,
Speaker 2: I don't care who you are. There is a sixth
Speaker 2: sense that you have. It doesn't matter how how much
Speaker 2: you can get by, doesn't matter where you come from.
Speaker 2: You have a sixth sense that lets you know when
Speaker 2: you're not being perceived the way that other people are
Speaker 2: being perceived. And the amount of times that I stepped
Speaker 2: onto a stage, I always open with I'm a proud
Speaker 2: Aboriginal woman, and I see eye rolls, and I see people, oh,
Speaker 2: here we go, and you see this kind of thing,
Speaker 2: and you have to stand there with the biggest smile
Speaker 2: on and advocate, knowing that there are people who already
Speaker 2: don't want to laugh, think that you're the diversity token Act.
Speaker 2: And then you've also got this kind of extra scanning
Speaker 2: that comes from within your own community as well, because
Speaker 2: we're so afraid of having our image and reputation tainted
Speaker 2: and tarnished because it's never been under our control, that
Speaker 2: there is this sort of policing or gate keeping that happens,
Speaker 2: and it happens in a lot of marginalized groups, and
Speaker 2: I understand it. But the amount of work and thought
Speaker 2: that went into every single word that I said on
Speaker 2: stage felt like I was doing a different task to
Speaker 2: my piece.
Speaker 1: Oh one hundred. They literally would get up, And I'm
Speaker 1: sure for a lot of people it's like, leave political
Speaker 1: correctness at the door. Be as cutting edge and wild
Speaker 1: as I possibly can. But when you have an extra
Speaker 1: sense of responsibility that you are not only like it's
Speaker 1: enough being a bloody woman, and then you're an Indigenous
Speaker 1: woman standing there that you then have the responsibility of
Speaker 1: representing your community in a way that they are happy with.
Speaker 2: Yes, the hardest balance was and I remember having this
Speaker 2: conversation with someone and feeling a lot of guilt and
Speaker 2: shame about it.
Speaker 3: As I'm getting older, I'm going No.
Speaker 2: I still and even when I felt guilt or shame
Speaker 2: for it, I still stand by. I kind of got
Speaker 2: asked this question of like, well, who's your audience. Is
Speaker 2: it white fellows or is it black fellows? And I
Speaker 2: was like, it's white fellows. I don't want to preach
Speaker 2: to the converted. Black fellows will love me regardless because
Speaker 2: I'm Black. We know each other's experience and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: The problem is that if you steer indigenous material towards
Speaker 2: white people, you begin to exclude your own people, and
Speaker 2: that is a very shameful and difficult process to handle,
Speaker 2: where you go, oh, fuck, I haven't even performed for
Speaker 2: black fellows, and that long, I don't even know if
Speaker 2: this is funny anymore.
Speaker 3: To my own people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think as well though, because comedy was
Speaker 2: never about I don't know, being famous or whatever. It
Speaker 2: was about sharing love and sending a message. Then again,
Speaker 2: it felt like I was just playing a different game
Speaker 2: to other people, And so my level of fear and
Speaker 2: nerves and anxiety before and after a gig felt like
Speaker 2: I was being too much again or too emotional or whatever,
Speaker 2: like there are so many beautiful, lovely comedians, like I'm
Speaker 2: not saying that there aren't. I just didn't feel like
Speaker 2: it was supportive enough for something.
Speaker 1: It wasn't wasn't your people.
Speaker 2: No, no, yeah, because I couldn't just have that moment
Speaker 2: going like here's what I'm thinking about when I'm doing
Speaker 2: this joke and whatever, and then you go on theres
Speaker 2: a funny punchline.
Speaker 3: You go, no, no, no, no, I.
Speaker 2: Need to know whether you understand that I you know,
Speaker 2: kind of I've built all of this behind it to
Speaker 2: make sure that this says all of this, and most
Speaker 2: people won't see all of this, but one person, you know,
Speaker 2: and it's kind of like okay. And it was always
Speaker 2: late nights, early flights, alone all the time, and you
Speaker 2: get so weird when you're alone but surrounded by people,
Speaker 2: like you know, you get up on stage absolutely exhausted.
Speaker 2: You just give everything, and then you step off stage
Speaker 2: and people are like, stay being funny.
Speaker 3: That was all I had, Man, like that was all
Speaker 3: I had, Like, you know.
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine that would be the really, really tough
Speaker 1: fit coming off stage and then people being like you
Speaker 1: still like that, and you're like, I know, I'm exhausted,
Speaker 1: I need to go to bed.
Speaker 2: But I'm too friendly as well, and I hate being inauthentic.
Speaker 2: I will get stuck in conversations for people for hours
Speaker 2: about shit, and I like, and I think, I'm so
Speaker 2: glad they're being so kind, but fuck off, And I
Speaker 2: hate saying it, but that's the fucking truth, man. And
Speaker 2: I think that this is very specific to comedians as well.
Speaker 1: Over familiarity, Oh because you've shared something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, But do you know what is so funny
Speaker 2: is that I think probably the thing that pushed me
Speaker 2: over the edge to stop doing comedy was everything that
Speaker 2: happened with my ex, Like it was so embarrassing I
Speaker 2: have to call up a venue and be like, if
Speaker 2: you see this person, you have to call the police, like,
Speaker 2: which is a very weird and embarrassing thing to do,
Speaker 2: but it haunts me. People will tell me hot boomeranger
Speaker 2: and they go, so where is he, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: he's got a DVO.
Speaker 1: I was institutionalized I was gonna ask when you're talking
Speaker 1: about your ex, I'm like, there's a lot of jokes
Speaker 1: you made about a certain person, and I was going
Speaker 1: to say, is that here, Yeah, yeah, because all those
Speaker 1: they were hilarious. Yeah, it was jokes, and they were
Speaker 1: asking something pretty fucked up.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well no, but at the time I didn't Yeah, I
Speaker 2: didn't feel like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But also like the was a bit of my existence
Speaker 2: was after the fact, he was like, well, I.
Speaker 1: Made you, Oh Jesus.
Speaker 2: I made you, so anything you earn I'm entitled to.
Speaker 2: And he was like trying to go through courts and everything,
Speaker 2: and I'm like and he's like, you only got a
Speaker 2: DVO because you are so you know, trying to hold
Speaker 2: your reputation together. And I'm like, no, it's because you
Speaker 2: won't stop contacting me. I'm scared you're gonna kill me.
Speaker 1: That's not how Wow, that's not how art works. You're
Speaker 1: not entitled to my staff because it happened to me
Speaker 1: in my life. Wow. But it really is that contrast
Speaker 1: between you on stage looking so happy, relaxed, at peace
Speaker 1: at home, and clearly there was a lot going on
Speaker 1: around that, but.
Speaker 2: I did feel happy in those moments because I was
Speaker 2: away from that. Yeah, there is no better, more powerful
Speaker 2: feeling than being on stage because it's love. That's why
Speaker 2: I think I also stopped enjoying comedy as much when
Speaker 2: I was doing more TV comedy then live comedy. I've
Speaker 2: got some amazing mentors as well, called Kevin Crabineri, who
Speaker 2: is my mentor who's changed my life, and he always
Speaker 2: says to me, the one thing that you need to
Speaker 2: know to be successful is if you love your audience,
Speaker 2: they'll love you. And so every time I walk and
Speaker 2: say to you, I'm just gonna hug this audience with
Speaker 2: my presence and like it's something I don't even know
Speaker 2: how to describe it. And it feels very black to
Speaker 2: me because me and I used to tour it a
Speaker 2: lot with the Aboriginal All Stars and we'd all kind
Speaker 2: of talk about it, like expanding your energy to fit
Speaker 2: the whole room right like, and it's so tiring.
Speaker 3: And I always like.
Speaker 2: I was mentoring a lot of people for a little bit,
Speaker 2: and I'd be like, if you're not exhausted after five minutes,
Speaker 2: you haven't put enough energy yet, you know, like you
Speaker 2: should be exhausted, because it's like you've got to actively
Speaker 2: feel you feeling every single corner of that.
Speaker 1: Ye. Do you feel the same about acting? So you've
Speaker 1: been in CLASSO seven. You did Loves in the Air
Speaker 1: on Netflix and in Total Control it was more of
Speaker 1: a serious role. Do you feel present in those moments?
Speaker 2: Acting is the best thing I've ever done, and it's
Speaker 2: so different to what I ever expected.
Speaker 3: It's teamwork. Like, have you been on a set?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wrote a show for Singe and no, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: First I wrote an episode and was on set for it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's it blows my mind. Yeah, Like I was like,
Speaker 1: you film things out of order? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm like I.
Speaker 1: Thought you filmed a chronology.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Everything about it is so everyone who's reliant on each other.
Speaker 3: It feels like community.
Speaker 1: It must be quite a contrast to comedy, because being
Speaker 1: on a set must feel a lot more like a
Speaker 1: workplace because you've got this huge team of people around you.
Speaker 1: You have no choice, especially for performance, you have no
Speaker 1: choice but to trust the people with yeah, and just
Speaker 1: lean into that. If you don't, you just can't do it.
Speaker 1: And but that must actually be a lot better I
Speaker 1: would think for mental health. Yes, that you're around people.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean.
Speaker 2: It's like it's double edged sword, right, Like I think
Speaker 2: I'm an incredibly anxious person, like I have like panic disorder.
Speaker 3: I really struggle with mental health.
Speaker 2: It's just something that I have a real problem with
Speaker 2: and trauma and blah blah blah blah blah, a whole
Speaker 2: bunch of shit. Whereas when you're acting, you've got a
Speaker 2: character that you can fall into and you kind of
Speaker 2: can have elements of you and elements of the character.
Speaker 2: Like it's really it's really weird. Although the other side
Speaker 2: of it is that I want everyone to feel good
Speaker 2: all the time, and sometimes I give way more energy
Speaker 2: than I have in me because there are like sixty
Speaker 2: people around it all times, and I walk away going.
Speaker 3: What the fuck have I just done?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got.
Speaker 3: Nothing in the tank.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but my management's really good at like I go,
Speaker 2: I need time off after acting, you know, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I much prefer it, but I don't want it to
Speaker 2: sound like I'm shitting on comedy. It's just I know
Speaker 2: it was so bad for my mental health.
Speaker 1: After the break, Steph Tisdell shares the invisible challenges that
Speaker 1: come with being a First Nations comedian. So you do
Speaker 1: that writing you are on screen. I imagine that you
Speaker 1: audition and have to deal with rejection. Yes, how do
Speaker 1: you cope with that?
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I probably don't audition as much
Speaker 2: as they should. I probably am more interested in auditioning
Speaker 2: for roles I think I'll get that's not good. I
Speaker 2: don't like that. I need to be more open for
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of things. But I think I actually
Speaker 2: deal with it pretty well. It's surprising because rejection is
Speaker 2: something that I'm very afraid of. When it comes to
Speaker 2: to a professional rejection, I'll just do shit like refuse
Speaker 2: to watch the show.
Speaker 3: Yeah, hetty nice, Yeah, but only to myself.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, yeah, oh that's a good idea. And
Speaker 1: you'd also be tempted to watch it and then just
Speaker 1: pick apart the person to get the roles.
Speaker 2: I was like, that could have been wow, ruined that character.
Speaker 1: Would the people in your life think that you're happy
Speaker 1: right now?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it might be that I've been in a long time.
Speaker 3: I'm not happy.
Speaker 2: I think the more happy you get, the more that
Speaker 2: you have to realize how I'm happy You've been for a.
Speaker 3: Very long time, which is harrowing, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: It's like, I'm.
Speaker 2: Probably the most stable I've been for a long time,
Speaker 2: which means I'm the most I'm the least happy. I
Speaker 2: have a huge capacity for moments of pure joy and wonderment.
Speaker 2: I'm aimlessly curious and spontaneous, and in moments I can
Speaker 2: be blissfully happy. My big thing that I'm trying to
Speaker 2: do at the moment is to stop distracting myself and
Speaker 2: leaning into the feeling of boredom too much, because that's
Speaker 2: all distraction.
Speaker 1: How do you do that with technology? It's like, honestly,
Speaker 1: it's such a big challenge, and I know my life
Speaker 1: would be better if I was able to do that.
Speaker 1: And boredom equals creativity, and I know that TikTok so far.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 3: I gave all my socials to my management.
Speaker 1: Oh such a good idea.
Speaker 3: I mean, I do still go on them only to check.
Speaker 2: I don't write anything anymore because I just it's like
Speaker 2: it's just false, it's inauthentic.
Speaker 3: I fucking hate it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think what I'm trying to work towards is
Speaker 2: I can always have moments of like absolute insane happiness
Speaker 2: because that's who I am, but it's very inconsistent, and
Speaker 2: it's very unstable, and the drops are so so dark
Speaker 2: that for now my happyes aren't as happy.
Speaker 3: But my sad's arena sad, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: And I'm moving more towards stability and normal attachments, not weird,
Speaker 2: anxious attachments that make me fuck up every relationship that
Speaker 2: ever comes my way, and working on my health. I've
Speaker 2: lost twenty two kilos and weirdly, my undies keep on
Speaker 2: falling down, which is the weirdest thing to happen, because
Speaker 2: it's really odd to just have your knickers falling down
Speaker 2: under your pants. But anyway, I'm working on my health
Speaker 2: and my mental health and I don't know if I'm happy,
Speaker 2: but I'm working on it.
Speaker 1: And when you think about the rest of your life,
Speaker 1: is there anything you think about that you're like, I
Speaker 1: want that thing in order to be happy, or if
Speaker 1: I didn't have that thing, I don't know if I
Speaker 1: could be happy.
Speaker 2: Money and children. I'm really broke. I suck at money.
Speaker 2: I probably don't need to be broke. I just have
Speaker 2: no ability to not buy whatever the fuck is in
Speaker 2: front of you, Like, do you know how many random
Speaker 2: like poop pens.
Speaker 3: I've bought just like things where.
Speaker 2: You just like clicking and then I lose them the
Speaker 2: next day and I go, that was eighteen dollars. You know,
Speaker 2: I've got a lot of random shit, So money, or
Speaker 2: at least managing my money better, would take a huge
Speaker 2: amount of stress off my shoulders. I would love to
Speaker 2: have children. I don't think I can handle children. I
Speaker 2: think I decided I didn't want children after I realized
Speaker 2: how much I was pushing to have children with a
Speaker 2: very bad man, and I thought, oh my god, I'm
Speaker 2: incredibly selfish because I would have made that kid's life
Speaker 2: awful for the sake of me having a closeness with
Speaker 2: another human being. I love nurturing, and I think I
Speaker 2: would be a good mum, but I would have done
Speaker 2: that to a child just for me to fulfill this
Speaker 2: need to.
Speaker 3: Be a mum.
Speaker 2: The reality is I haven't got the skills or the ability,
Speaker 2: or the time or the mental bandwidth to have a child.
Speaker 2: And maybe one day I will, that's the thing. But
Speaker 2: I'm also always single, and you know, so yeah, I
Speaker 2: don't know. I would love to have kids. I don't
Speaker 2: know if it would make me any happier or not.
Speaker 2: I play Auntie to a lot of different kids. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and better money management.
Speaker 1: You have talked about therapy and what are kind of
Speaker 1: some of the tools and skills that you've learnt about
Speaker 1: managing mental health over some of these really really challenging times.
Speaker 3: This is my biggest problem.
Speaker 2: I am super self aware and I know what the
Speaker 2: work is, and I don't really do it. I still
Speaker 2: don't know how the fuck to sit with the heart emotion.
Speaker 3: No, I actually.
Speaker 2: I actually just don't fully understand it. I let myself
Speaker 2: more and more. I think there's a problem with being
Speaker 2: too aware. I think it can be I'm a ruminator and.
Speaker 3: UBERNUTA that sounds like.
Speaker 2: I actually think that CBT is something I need to
Speaker 2: move away from.
Speaker 1: Okay, I have a theory about this because I wonder
Speaker 1: if it does sound like it would be. Because you're smart,
Speaker 1: intellectual problem solving thinking a lot, you actually know that
Speaker 1: your problem isn't that you don't know what you should
Speaker 1: be doing, what your issues are, what logical fallacies you're using.
Speaker 1: That's not the problem. The problem is like an emotional shift.
Speaker 1: It's like you know what you're meant to think in
Speaker 1: order to feel differently, but you're not feeling any different. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think that's a different kind of therapy.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, well I've been addressing that recently,
Speaker 2: Like I switched to what's called body psychotherapy.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah yeah, body psycho therapy be heard of.
Speaker 1: That something I've apparently something that's meant to be good
Speaker 1: for that is schemer therapy.
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, I've done that too.
Speaker 1: Did that do anything?
Speaker 2: I did it with a hypnotist. It was the fucking
Speaker 2: wildest shit I've ever done. Man. Wi I like went
Speaker 2: to like a childlike state. And remember when I got
Speaker 2: mauled by a dog and im I didn't know And
Speaker 2: then afterwards I was like, adorable, STEP's been hormatized way
Speaker 2: because I was in that, I was in the session
Speaker 2: and she was like, and when was the last time
Speaker 2: you feeling out of control?
Speaker 3: And then I was just like I killed him and
Speaker 3: she was like sorry what.
Speaker 2: I was like, he's dead and it's myself and she went, okay, Steph,
Speaker 2: let's talk about this.
Speaker 1: That's a great opening to a novel.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And what do you know?
Speaker 2: What I was talking about was that the dog had
Speaker 2: to be put down after it attacked me and I
Speaker 2: was three, and I've never let the guilt go. My god,
Speaker 2: I honestly regressed back to a child and I was like,
Speaker 2: it's all my fault.
Speaker 3: He's dead, and like I was like, where the fuck
Speaker 3: did this leaves?
Speaker 1: Like I don't know if it was helpful.
Speaker 2: I don't think I've thought about this dog bawling in
Speaker 2: like twenty years, and all of a sudden, I can't
Speaker 2: stop crying and grieving for that dog was in fault.
Speaker 2: He was abused. You know, it bit me by my face.
Speaker 2: I got I was going to have to get like
Speaker 2: plastic surgery, and then they said we have to put
Speaker 2: them down.
Speaker 1: They didn't need to tell you that that You didn't
Speaker 1: need to know that as a child.
Speaker 2: But it's traumatized me like plenty, So yes, so that didn't. No,
Speaker 2: I think exercise has been really good for me. Well,
Speaker 2: I've got big titties and lots of fat, so I'm
Speaker 2: always in pain in my back, so swimming is really
Speaker 2: good for me. I'm actually as of Saturday and running
Speaker 2: training with my brother.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's meant to be a really good for you
Speaker 1: mental heality.
Speaker 2: Yes, and that's that's what he says too. So we're
Speaker 2: I'm not looking forward to it, but it'll be good.
Speaker 2: I do have a terrible way of escaping my ship
Speaker 2: by canceling others, terrify others, but then they therapized me.
Speaker 2: So I lean into some really beautiful friendships that I've
Speaker 2: got where we've built them around recognizing that we're overly
Speaker 2: aware and under acting.
Speaker 3: So yeah, those are my main tools.
Speaker 2: Is being aware of when I'm distracting myself, like I
Speaker 2: recognize when I'm binging. I've been binging for the last
Speaker 2: few days because I've been really nervous about the book,
Speaker 2: and I'm forgiving myself for that and being aware of
Speaker 2: what expectations I have on myself and which one's a
Speaker 2: true and genuine and fair and not fair.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's that shit.
Speaker 2: I don't know how the fuck you get to loving myself,
Speaker 2: but right now, forgiving myself or accepting myself is good.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for your vulnerability today. That
Speaker 1: was such a moving conversation. That's all We've got time
Speaker 1: for on today's episode of That Are You Happy? Steph
Speaker 1: Tisdell's novel The Skin I'm In is out now and
Speaker 1: I cannot recommend it enough It's a really, really beautiful
Speaker 1: story told with her humor and warmth about a girl
Speaker 1: in year twelve who's navigating cultural expectations and the complexities
Speaker 1: of high school. We will pop a link to buy
Speaker 1: the book in the show notes. This conversation was probably
Speaker 1: one of the most vivid depictions that I've heard on
Speaker 1: this show about how a person can appear and what
Speaker 1: they are actually experiencing. So Steph was so honest about
Speaker 1: what was going on in her life behind closed doors
Speaker 1: when things looked really, really joyous from the outside. And
Speaker 1: I think that honesty is such a gift. And there
Speaker 1: were so many parts of this chat that really struck
Speaker 1: a chord with me, and we're incredibly honest. The way
Speaker 1: Steph talked about experiencing an abusive relationship, the way she
Speaker 1: talked about her confidence being eroded, and how having extreme
Speaker 1: empathy and being a really kind person can be capitalized
Speaker 1: on by the wrong people, And I think it's really
Speaker 1: a gift for her to share that vulnerability with us.
Speaker 1: If there's anyone you know who you feel might really
Speaker 1: get something out of this episode, please share it with them.
Speaker 1: And if you want to recommend any guests for the show,
Speaker 1: you can always get in touch with me on Instagram.
Speaker 1: And if you like the show, please leave us a review.
Speaker 1: It helps people to find us and to listen to
Speaker 1: more of these really insightful conversations. The executive producer of
Speaker 1: That Are You Happy is Naima Brown and the producer
Speaker 1: is Charlie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott Stronik And I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Claire Stevens, and we'll see you next week