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Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm Ama Mia podcast. Here's the difference

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Speaker 1: between introverts and extroverts. The party got canceled?

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Speaker 2: No, oh, the party got canceled. Yes, that was such

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Speaker 2: a good party. Let's go to the after party. That

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Speaker 2: was a great one hour of social activity. Can we

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Speaker 2: go home now?

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, there's so many people here that I

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Speaker 3: don't recognize.

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Speaker 2: Let's go meet them.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, there's so many people here that I

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Speaker 3: don't recognize.

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Speaker 2: Let's leave.

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Speaker 1: For MoMA Mia.

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Speaker 3: I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to But Are You Happy?

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Speaker 3: The podcast for people who read self help books, highlight

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Speaker 3: every page and then never apply a single piece of advice.

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Speaker 4: And I'm doctor Anaesthetia Heronus, a clinical psychologist passionate about

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Speaker 4: happiness and mental health. Now, do you light up in

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Speaker 4: big social settings or do you feel more at home

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Speaker 4: in a quiet catch up with your close people. Are

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Speaker 4: you an introvert, an extrovert, or somewhere in the chaotic middle?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I have no idea where I sit in all of this.

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Speaker 2: Well, today we are diving into all of it. What

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Speaker 2: it really means to be introverted or extroverted?

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Speaker 4: Why social anxiety is so real and how it can

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Speaker 4: actually show up in your body.

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Speaker 3: Let's get into it, okay, Anatheja, we know that winter

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Speaker 3: is truly gone now we are in the summer season,

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Speaker 3: which means we're all getting a bit more social and

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Speaker 3: it can bring up different things for different people. People

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Speaker 3: can get excited, people can get nervous. What's going on there?

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Speaker 4: Well, I guess this is where our personality traits really

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Speaker 4: come to the forefront. And it's quite interesting because a

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Speaker 4: lot of our personalities reflected back to us when we're

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Speaker 4: around other people. If we think as other people are

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Speaker 4: sort of mirrors or projections of internal parts of us.

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Speaker 4: Some of us really enjoy being in social settings and

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Speaker 4: others couldn't think of anything worse. And this kind of

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Speaker 4: speaks to this idea of introversion and extraversion.

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Speaker 2: So I know.

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Speaker 4: In one of our previous episodes in a previo season,

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Speaker 4: we talked about the ocean model of personality. Yes, and

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Speaker 4: to just remind listeners at home, so we spell out

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Speaker 4: the word ocean and each letter stands for a word

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Speaker 4: that kind of describes different personality traits. So o refers

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Speaker 4: to openness, how open we are to new experiences, C

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Speaker 4: stands for conscientiousness and how conscientious or not we might be.

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Speaker 2: E stands for extraversion.

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Speaker 4: So this is where we talk about the extraversion and

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Speaker 4: introversion spectrum. A stands for agreeableness and N stands for neuroticism.

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Speaker 4: So if we think about extraversion and introversion, this kind

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Speaker 4: of dichotomy was first proposed by Carl Jung.

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Speaker 2: Oh yep, you know a bit about Jung.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, good work, Yes, yes, And it was in the

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Speaker 4: early nineteen hundred, so nineteen oh nine he first actually

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Speaker 4: coined the term introverted in one of his lectures, and

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Speaker 4: this was the first time it was proposed, And he

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Speaker 4: then went on to really unpack what he meant by

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Speaker 4: the introverted personality trait. And I'm actually I've got to

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Speaker 4: get a little excerpt I'm gonna read because I sort

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Speaker 4: of had a bit of a giggle to myself as

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Speaker 4: I was reading this. So what he wrote as a

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Speaker 4: definition of the introverted type, he holds aloof from external happenings,

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Speaker 4: does not join in, has.

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Speaker 2: A distinct dislike of society.

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Speaker 4: As soon as he finds himself amongst too many people

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Speaker 4: in a large gathering, he feels lonely and lost. The

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Speaker 4: more crowded it is, the greater becomes his resistance. He

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Speaker 4: is not in the least with it and has no

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Speaker 4: love of enthusiastic get togethers.

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Speaker 2: He is not a good mixer.

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Speaker 4: What he does he does in his own way, barricading

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Speaker 4: himself against influences from the outside.

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Speaker 2: He is apt to appear.

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Speaker 4: Awkward, often seeming inhibited, and it frequently happens that by

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Speaker 4: a certain brusqueness of manner, or by his glum unapproachability,

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Speaker 4: he causes unwitting offense to people. And then he goes

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Speaker 4: on to say his own company is the best He

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Speaker 4: feels at home in his world where the only changes

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Speaker 4: are made by himself. His best work is done with

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Speaker 4: his own resources, on his own initiative, and in his

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Speaker 4: own way.

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Speaker 3: Wow, it's a really interesting balance of it sounds very

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Speaker 3: poetic but also very honest.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh, this feels nice, but also like

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Speaker 3: he's got some good points there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I just felt I wanted to read that

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Speaker 4: out because as I when I read it, I really

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Speaker 4: felt like I could picture that.

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Speaker 2: Person totally in my mind.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And so I guess like that was that was

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Speaker 4: Carl Jung's original nineteen oh nine sort of explanation of

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Speaker 4: the introverted personality trait.

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Speaker 2: But since then we've kind.

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Speaker 4: Of gone on to sort of expand what perhaps that

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Speaker 4: looks like in modern day society.

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Speaker 3: So what does that look like in modern day society

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Speaker 3: in terms of, like, what does an introvert and extrovert

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Speaker 3: look like in a social setting?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the key word that I've seen used a lot

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Speaker 4: in the research is still So if you think about

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Speaker 4: someone who's introverted, they prefer or seek out less stimulation

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Speaker 4: compared to someone who is more extroverted.

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Speaker 2: It's also this.

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Speaker 4: Sense of kind of finding one's own internal world quite

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Speaker 4: gratifying if you're more introverted, a sense of observing before participating,

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Speaker 4: So the person who kind of watches from the sidelines

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Speaker 4: before they get involved, and also sort of preferring those

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Speaker 4: more smaller one on one or small group conversations and chats.

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Speaker 1: Okay, maybe I am an introvert.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I'd probably have to keep chick.

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Speaker 2: We'll find out.

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Speaker 3: Find out everyone space. So what about extroverts? What do

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Speaker 3: they look like in a social context?

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Speaker 4: So, in many ways we can think of it as

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Speaker 4: the opposite, although I will say that introversion and extraversion

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Speaker 4: are not kind of one or the other. It's not

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Speaker 4: that you have one or you have the other, but

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Speaker 4: you sort of exist on a continuum where we probably

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Speaker 4: have traits of both. It's just more that one might

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Speaker 4: shine to the forefront than the other.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But again, if I think back.

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Speaker 4: To stimulation, it's the extroverts seek stimulation in their day

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Speaker 4: to day life. They're very energized by other people. They

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Speaker 4: thrive off being around others. They take pleasure in.

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Speaker 2: Activities that involve large gatherings and crowds. They tend to

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Speaker 2: work well.

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Speaker 4: In groups, and they're typically more likely to enjoy time

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Speaker 4: spent with others compared to time spent alone.

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Speaker 3: So as you're saying, and I'm like, ah, there's some

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Speaker 3: bits in there, I'm like, oh, I'm not too. Yes,

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Speaker 3: so I could be literally a bit of both.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: Well it's funny you say that because the research has

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Speaker 4: sort of evolved to incorporate another sort of classification, the ambivert.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I've heard of this term.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, so you might fall in the ambivert category.

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Speaker 1: I might have an answer, which is.

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Speaker 4: Essentially where someone has again, both the extroverted and introverted characteristics,

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Speaker 4: but rather than one shining through to the forefront, a

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Speaker 4: person sort of has them in equal degrees. So it's

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Speaker 4: not that one is stronger than the other, but they

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Speaker 4: sort of possess both those introverted and extroverted.

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Speaker 2: Qualities quite equally. Does that sound more like you?

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Speaker 3: That does sound more like me? I like this middle

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Speaker 3: ground space. It's nice.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it's hard to categorize people, right, we don't get

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Speaker 4: that neatly into boxes, sometimes constantly changing.

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Speaker 3: But can that actually happen? Like can you change as

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Speaker 3: you get older? Because I'm trying to think now, because

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Speaker 3: I know for me, I was really shy growing up

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Speaker 3: and now like I'm you know, I'm doing act, I'm

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Speaker 3: a podcast a speaker, like I'm you know, out there,

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Speaker 3: So I don't know, does that change?

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Speaker 4: So shy is an interesting concept. Okay, so personality traits

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Speaker 4: introverted versus extroverted.

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Speaker 2: Our personality traits are said.

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Speaker 4: To be relatively stable, so we wouldn't expect a great

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Speaker 4: deal of change there. However, you mentioned the way sh

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Speaker 4: shy is less of a personality trait and more an

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Speaker 4: internal state that can change. What we find with shyness,

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Speaker 4: it's different to introverted. Introverted people are very happy and

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Speaker 4: content in their own space, being on their own with

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Speaker 4: few people. They don't have a desire for more than that.

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Speaker 4: They're very content as they are. People who identify as

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Speaker 4: being shy usually.

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Speaker 2: Have a want or a desire to.

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Speaker 4: Be more connected or to participate more in the social group,

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Speaker 4: but there's some sort of fear or self doubt that

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Speaker 4: gets in the way.

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Speaker 3: That is so good to know, because it's so easy

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Speaker 3: for those two terms to get collapsed into one being like, oh,

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Speaker 3: she's shy, so that means she's introvert or vice versa.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, exactly.

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Speaker 4: Shy actually implies some sort of anxiety or fear or

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Speaker 4: self doubt, but it's a desire.

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Speaker 2: There's a desire behind it to.

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Speaker 4: Have more connections posed to the introvert who's very happy

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Speaker 4: as they are.

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Speaker 3: So does culture play a role in introversion extraversion as well?

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Speaker 4: That's a good point because what we see is that

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Speaker 4: certain cultures will value certain personality traits. So, for example,

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Speaker 4: generally within a Western culture, we see that more extroverted

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Speaker 4: personality traits are valued, like being quite assertive, being risk taking,

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Speaker 4: more talkative, etc. But in Eastern cultures there's actually more

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Speaker 4: so those introverted personality traits that seem to.

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Speaker 2: Be more valued.

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Speaker 3: That's so interesting to actually point that out because I

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Speaker 3: can imagine too. I know you speak to culture, but

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Speaker 3: also it gets me thinking about even like the schools

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Speaker 3: and school systems and how often you know when a student,

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Speaker 3: like I know from my experiences from working with schools,

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Speaker 3: it's like if a student isn't participating in classroom discussions,

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Speaker 3: it's like not a good thing. But it's so funny

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Speaker 3: how the system plays to more trying to get more

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Speaker 3: people to be more extroverted when it actually might not

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Speaker 3: be their natural nature.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and it's funny.

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Speaker 4: I in doing some research for this topic, I ended

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Speaker 4: up reading some people's personal accounts on blogs and things,

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Speaker 4: and I saw people sort of commenting on feeling on

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Speaker 4: the outer of their cultural group if their personality traits

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Speaker 4: didn't align with what was valued in.

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Speaker 2: That community or in that culture or in that group.

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Speaker 4: And maybe people who were more extroverted but came from

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Speaker 4: a culture that valued those introverted qualities always sort of

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Speaker 4: feeling a bit on the outer, which was just a

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Speaker 4: really interesting reflection about how that can impact our sense

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Speaker 4: of belonging in connection to others.

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Speaker 3: So true, what about you, Like, I'm curious where do

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Speaker 3: you sit in this spectrum of all of it.

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Speaker 4: I in recent years have thought about this. I think

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Speaker 4: I'm more extroverted than introverted, although I will say that

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Speaker 4: I don't work well in groups. That was one of

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Speaker 4: their quales for extraversion.

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Speaker 2: I'm definitely a good dal I've heer to work on

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Speaker 2: my own.

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Speaker 4: But when I go to a party or a networking event,

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Speaker 4: I'm the person thinking like, oh my god, do people

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Speaker 4: I can't wait to meet them all. Meeting new people

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Speaker 4: I love it so much. I love a chat with

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Speaker 4: someone new. I love a chat on the street, like

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Speaker 4: I like just meeting different people. But of course, as

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Speaker 4: we said, like we have elements of both, so I

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Speaker 4: definitely need this sort of alone time to recharge. But

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Speaker 4: I find I'm more drawn to big gatherings, big social events,

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Speaker 4: meeting new people.

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Speaker 2: I really love that.

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Speaker 3: I know that you're going to a networking event tonight,

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Speaker 3: so I'm king to me, You're going.

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Speaker 2: To connect with meet lots of new people tomorrow and.

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Speaker 1: Be energized tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting you're talking about how you thrive off like

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Speaker 3: big gatherings.

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Speaker 1: And things like that.

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Speaker 3: It gets me thinking about socially anxiety, Like what is

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Speaker 3: social anxiety because we hear that term thrown around a lot. Yes.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so it's kind of one step further than shyness, right.

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Speaker 4: Social anxiety is a diagnosis. It's a mental health condition,

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Speaker 4: so we can diagnose people with social anxiety. Used to

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Speaker 4: be called social phobia, now we call it social anxiety.

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Speaker 2: So there's a few key.

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Speaker 4: Characteristics that you know, if I was assessing someone in

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Speaker 4: the clinic for social anxiety, i'd be looking for. So,

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Speaker 4: someone with social anxiety will have a persistent and quite

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Speaker 4: intense fear about being judged negatively, So it might be

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Speaker 4: negative judgment, it might be embarrassment or feelings of humiliation

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Speaker 4: when they're around other people. We often find that as

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Speaker 4: a result of the intensity of the anxiety, people with

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Speaker 4: social anxiety will try to avoid scenarios where they might

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Speaker 4: be judged or they might feel embarrassed or be humiliated.

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Speaker 4: Being in social situation brings up a huge amount of

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Speaker 4: anxiety for them. Because we can't avoid people all together,

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Speaker 4: we do sometimes need to be around them. So when

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Speaker 4: they are around people, they feel intense anxiety and that

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Speaker 4: sort of can almost interfere with their day to day life.

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Speaker 4: So maybe it impacts their ability to work, maybe it

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Speaker 4: impacts their.

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Speaker 2: Ability to enjoy leisure time.

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Speaker 4: It could be in all different sorts of ways, but

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Speaker 4: it impacts their life on a day to day level.

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Speaker 3: Whow. I didn't realize that it was something that would

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Speaker 3: get diagnosed as well, because again, I hear friends be like,

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Speaker 3: oh yeah, I feel like I've got social anxiety, especially

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Speaker 3: after COVID I've just noticed I want to hear it

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Speaker 3: all the time, being like, oh yeah, I was like, definitely,

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Speaker 3: I feel like I'm socially anxious. So that's good to

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Speaker 3: know if there's criteria.

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Speaker 4: It's one of the more common types of anxiety that

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Speaker 4: we actually see. It's actually probably more common than people realize.

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Speaker 4: We see a lot of people in the clinic that

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Speaker 4: are struggling with social anxiety, and because people have to

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Speaker 4: be in social situations sometimes they've usually learnt good ways

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Speaker 4: of masking it. Yeah, so we might have a friend

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Speaker 4: who's got social anxiety, but we wouldn't know it because

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Speaker 4: they're pretty good at managing or hiding the anxiety.

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Speaker 1: So what are the causes of social anxiety.

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Speaker 2: Could be a range of different things.

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Speaker 4: As with most things, there is some sort of genetic

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Speaker 4: element that comes through. But one of the things that's

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Speaker 4: particularly common with social anxiety can be a history of bullying. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: if someone has experienced that negative judgment, that humiliation, that embarrassment,

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Speaker 4: if that's been a real part of their life and

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Speaker 4: their experiences, it makes sense that they would be socially anxious.

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Speaker 4: So that's common some sort of trauma history, but also

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Speaker 4: a tendency to being more anxious generally or having.

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Speaker 2: Low self esteem.

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Speaker 4: If we have low self esteem, we might be more

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Speaker 4: prone to worrying that other people are going to judge

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Speaker 4: us negatively.

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Speaker 3: So for someone that has social anxiety and they're in

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Speaker 3: a social situation, like what's going on for them physically?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so there's a few key physical signs and symptoms.

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Speaker 4: They might be more prone to blushing, they might have

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Speaker 4: increased heart rate, hands trembling, upset stomach, mind going blank.

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Speaker 4: That's one that a lot of people with social anxiety

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Speaker 4: will often report that they just sort of lose their

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Speaker 4: train of thoughts and their mind goes blank. But an

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Speaker 4: interesting thing that's quite unique to social anxiety is around

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Speaker 4: eye contact. So if we look into each other's eyes,

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Speaker 4: it's actually quite a nice moment. But looking into someone's

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Speaker 4: eyes can also activate the threat response. So if you

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Speaker 4: think about like, you know, like a lion hunting down

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Speaker 4: it's prey or something, right, you know, you know, when

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Speaker 4: dogs are about to fight, they had I think they

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Speaker 4: have quite intense eye contact, so intense. Like if I

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Speaker 4: just like sort of stared at you, Like if we

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Speaker 4: didn't have a kind of kind loving moment I stare

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Speaker 4: down at you, there'd.

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Speaker 2: Be something in you that's like.

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Speaker 4: So what can happen for people with social anxiety is

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Speaker 4: that eye contact can almost be misinterpreted and activates the

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Speaker 4: threat response.

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Speaker 2: So what people will.

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Speaker 4: Do with social anxiety is typically avoid eye contact because

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Speaker 4: it does activate something in them that creates more anxiety.

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Speaker 4: So that's one interesting thing that happens with eye contact.

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Speaker 4: Another interesting thing that people with social anxiety can do

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Speaker 4: is this sort of checking behavior. So what I mean

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Speaker 4: by this is if someone has social anxiety and they're

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Speaker 4: waiting in the cafe because they've just ordered their coffee

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Speaker 4: and they're waiting for it to be made, and say,

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Speaker 4: there's like six other people standing around them, so one

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Speaker 4: person with social anxiety might avoid looking at anyone because

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Speaker 4: they're like, don't look at me. I just want to

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Speaker 4: be you know, you want to blend into the wall here,

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Speaker 4: no one look at me. Someone else, however, might do

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Speaker 4: this checking process where they actually look to see if

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Speaker 4: people are looking at them. Oh wow, So we look

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Speaker 4: to the person on the right, look to the person

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Speaker 4: in front, look to the person on the left. Now,

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Speaker 4: what happens if you're standing in a coffee shop a shani,

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Speaker 4: and you're next to me, and I turn.

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Speaker 2: And look at you. What do you think you're likely

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Speaker 2: to do?

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Speaker 1: What would I want to do? I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I would want to look at the person.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a very natural response to actually look back.

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Speaker 2: We can say that's wrong.

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Speaker 4: If someone were to look at you, we would very

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Speaker 4: naturally typically look back. Yeah. So unfortunately, what that does

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Speaker 4: for the person with social anxiety is it in a

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Speaker 4: really unhelpful way confirms their fear because they go around

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Speaker 4: looking to check if everyone's looking at them.

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Speaker 2: People will look back at them. If I look at someone,

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Speaker 2: they'll probably look back at me.

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Speaker 4: Yes, Because we can notice, we feel that we're being

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Speaker 4: looked at, even if we're not looking at them directly,

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Speaker 4: and so it creates this unfortunately, this unhealthy, unhelpful pattern. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: people actually looking at that person, which then feeds their

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Speaker 4: anxiety and so on.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, that is so true. It's interesting because

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Speaker 3: like them looking around. Is that like a form of

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Speaker 3: high for vigilance in a way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, yes, it's like sort of the monitoring, it's

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Speaker 4: the hypervigilating the station. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, it's like keeping

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Speaker 4: a sense of control. If I know what's happening around me,

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Speaker 4: I might feel more in control.

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Speaker 3: That must take a lot of energy out like that

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Speaker 3: would be really exhausting, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, tiring. Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting you talk about the eye contact piece because

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Speaker 3: it gets me thinking more about because when I'm in

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Speaker 3: conversations with people, like, I don't like to look at

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Speaker 3: someone all the time. Like when I'm in conversation, I

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Speaker 3: do look around. I look up, I look around like yeah,

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Speaker 3: So it's just interesting because now I'm getting a bit

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Speaker 3: conscious around I was.

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Speaker 4: I was just going to say that we're like looking

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Speaker 4: at each other having a conversation about eye contact.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking, is like do I do this? What's an

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Speaker 2: appropriate level of IM?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 3: Am I always looking at you because I don't think

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Speaker 3: I am I'm looking around.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's normal.

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Speaker 4: But this, this is the crux of social anxiety. If

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Speaker 4: I can just like press pause on this moment right here,

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Speaker 4: this is what goes on in the minds of me,

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Speaker 4: you feel socially anxious. They analyze their own behavior and

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Speaker 4: then that creates anxiety because they're like, should I look,

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Speaker 4: should I not look?

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Speaker 2: Should I look away? Maybe I look up to the

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Speaker 2: left and then I'll look back at a shani.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: It's a very tiring mental process that requires or that

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Speaker 4: involves a lot of over analysis of ourselves.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is, if.

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Speaker 4: We look for signs that we're doing something weird or

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Speaker 4: that someone might be judging us, we'll probably find them, right,

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Speaker 4: I look hard enough for it. If I, you know,

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Speaker 4: monitor myself in this moment, I'll be like, oh, I

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Speaker 4: stumbled over that word, or maybe my voice sounded a

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Speaker 4: bit funny just then, or the shiny's been looking at

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Speaker 4: me for more than three seconds, you know, And I

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Speaker 4: can interpret that in all sorts of ways.

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Speaker 2: That might mean all sorts of things. You know.

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Speaker 4: If I'm worried about whether you like me or not,

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Speaker 4: a shany please like me?

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Speaker 1: I do.

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Speaker 4: But if we say, sitting at lunch together and then

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Speaker 4: we have this kind of moment of silence as we're

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Speaker 4: eating our food, I could just be like, okay, whatever,

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Speaker 4: we're just eating. But if I'm prone to social anxiety,

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Speaker 4: I might interpret that as like, oh, Shiny doesn't want

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Speaker 4: to talk to me anymore, she doesn't like me. So

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Speaker 4: it's all about the more we focus on finding certain

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Speaker 4: things and analyzing certain things, we will our mind will fill.

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Speaker 2: The void with all these negative interpretations.

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Speaker 1: This feels like a slight tangent.

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Speaker 3: But it feels like when you know, when let's say

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Speaker 3: you buy a new car, not that that's like a

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Speaker 3: daily activity or anything, but like you buy a new

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Speaker 3: car and then you see that same car everywhere. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it feels like it's the same thing with this, Yes,

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Speaker 3: but you're constantly looking at the thing that you're focused on.

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Speaker 4: We are biased towards noticing what it is that's personally

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Speaker 4: relevant to us in our environment. So because we if

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Speaker 4: we have social anxiety, because we're so conscious of ourselves,

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Speaker 4: we assume that other people are as well. The reality is, no,

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Speaker 4: one's probably thinking about us more than we are thinking

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Speaker 4: about ourselves.

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Speaker 1: So true.

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Speaker 3: After the break, Doctor Anastasia is going to tell us

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Speaker 3: how we can overcome our social anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Stay with us.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Anastasia, So if we have social anxiety, what should

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Speaker 3: we do about it?

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Speaker 4: H Well, the good news is social anxiety is a

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Speaker 4: condition that is really responsive to treatment. Good Yes, So

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Speaker 4: as a psychologist, I would work with someone around a

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Speaker 4: type of therapy called cognitive behavior therapy, which we've talked

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Speaker 4: a little bit about before. So it really involves looking

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Speaker 4: at any unhelpful thinking patterns someone might have, so for example,

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Speaker 4: assuming we know what other people are thinking or jumping

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Speaker 4: to conclusions about things. But it also involves a process

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Speaker 4: of exposure. So whenever we are feeling anxious around something,

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Speaker 4: exposure to the thing that makes us anxious is generally

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Speaker 4: one of the most effective treatments we can have now

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Speaker 4: with social anxiety. The key here is that people will

445
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 4: do what we refer to as safety behaviors to get

446
00:22:15,879 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 4: them through social situations. So it's not enough to just

447
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 4: be exposed to people or to friends or to gatherings, right.

448
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 2: Because typically people have had.

449
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 4: To do that already, but they're found ways to kind

450
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 4: of cope. So what we have to do is help

451
00:22:31,639 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 4: people drop their safety behaviors and do the social thing.

452
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,959
Speaker 4: So examples of safety behaviors I mentioned eye contact, So

453
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,039
Speaker 4: avoiding eye contact might be one safety behavior. Another safety

454
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 4: behavior could be something like doing a lot of rehearsing

455
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 4: and preparation as to what you might talk to someone

456
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 4: about before you go and meet up with them. A

457
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 4: safety behavior could be something like wearing really inconspicuous clothing,

458
00:22:58,159 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 4: very sort of bland neutral clothing because you don't want

459
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 4: to stand out. It might be when you go and

460
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,239
Speaker 4: sit at the dinner table, you position yourself in a

461
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 4: particular spot where you're less likely to be talked to.

462
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 4: It might be that you ask other people a lot

463
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 4: of questions so that you don't have to have the

464
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,239
Speaker 4: focus on yourself. Or it could be for some people

465
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 4: actually talking really fast to try and just get through

466
00:23:21,159 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 4: conversations as quick.

467
00:23:22,159 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 2: As they can.

468
00:23:23,679 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 4: And there might be many others, yeah, varioues person to person,

469
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,719
Speaker 4: But people will often have a collection of safety behaviors

470
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 4: in their back pocket that help them get through the situation.

471
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 2: Now, that's good for helping them get through.

472
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 4: The anxiety provoking social scenario, but what it doesn't allow

473
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 4: for is the person to learn actually I can be

474
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 4: in this social situation without those safety behaviors and everything

475
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 4: will be okay. So we work to develop a hierarchy

476
00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 4: of different scenarios that people can put themselves into to

477
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,759
Speaker 4: help them learn that even if they feel a bit anxious,

478
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 4: they can go into those scenarios without their safety behaviors

479
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 4: and everything will be okay. Now, when I was studying

480
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 4: at UNI in my masters, we actually had to do

481
00:24:16,879 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 4: some of these experiments.

482
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: Oh that's fun.

483
00:24:20,159 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, well fun, I.

484
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 4: Guess fun for people who don't have social anxiety. Yeah,

485
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 4: but they were actually highly anxiety provoking situations.

486
00:24:28,399 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 2: So it had to be really wild things that we

487
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: would do that would bring about public scrutiny.

488
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 4: So, for example, tie rope around a banana and walk

489
00:24:37,879 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 4: it down the street.

490
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, that is so specific in a niche

491
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 3: no one would.

492
00:24:43,159 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 2: Ever do exactly.

493
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 4: The idea being that it draws people attention and to

494
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 4: be able to kind of learn, Okay, I can feel anxious,

495
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 4: I can have a lot of attention on me, and

496
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 4: after those few minutes are done, like, no one cares.

497
00:24:58,639 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 4: No one really cares that much. You know, maybe people

498
00:25:00,879 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 4: go home and be like I saw this random person

499
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 4: walking a banana down the street.

500
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: But it's a big deal.

501
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 4: Yeah. So another one, and this is one that I did.

502
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 4: I didn't do the banana one. I maybe wasn't game enough.

503
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 4: But we had to go up and pay for a

504
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 4: coffee in all five and ten cent pieces and like

505
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,239
Speaker 4: count them out at the cash register. So you're like

506
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 4: keeping people waiting, and the guy behind the cash just

507
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 4: is like, come on, you should have counted this out,

508
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 4: and there's people behind me.

509
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: Gosh, this is very anxiety.

510
00:25:28,919 --> 00:25:32,479
Speaker 4: So it's like the idea of bringing up anxiety to

511
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 4: prove to ourselves.

512
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: Okay, it's uncomfortable, but it's also.

513
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: Okay, wow, that's really clever.

514
00:25:40,919 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sharing stories.

515
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 2: Now I share one more with you.

516
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, story time.

517
00:25:46,399 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 4: I once worked with a person who had a lot

518
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 4: of social anxiety, just even in public, walking through like

519
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 4: you know, coals or woolies and thinking people were looking

520
00:25:56,679 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 4: at them. And so one of the things that we

521
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 4: did was that I sacrificed myself and so I walked

522
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,959
Speaker 4: through woolies with like lipstick smudged all over my face

523
00:26:10,639 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 4: intentionally and like quite obviously.

524
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

525
00:26:13,919 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 4: And the person I was working with was also in woolies.

526
00:26:17,679 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 4: And her job was to look around and just notice

527
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 4: a did people actually look at me and notice and

528
00:26:24,399 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 4: be If they did, what did they then do? And

529
00:26:27,679 --> 00:26:30,999
Speaker 4: it's interesting because when we feel self conscious about something,

530
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 4: we think everyone is looking at us. The reality is

531
00:26:33,879 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 4: people aren't really noticing that much. So it was interesting

532
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 4: for her to kind of be on that observer end

533
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 4: and notice, actually, not many people even realized I had

534
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 4: lipstick smudged all over my face, And for those who did,

535
00:26:46,159 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 4: they kind of looked at me for a second and

536
00:26:47,639 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 4: then kind of about their day and didn't care. So

537
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 4: it's all about, sort of in a very practical way,

538
00:26:54,399 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 4: relearning that when we shine the spotlight on ourselves, everything

539
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 4: seems like a really big deal, but actually.

540
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: We're thinking about ourselves more than anyone else.

541
00:27:04,879 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: Is so true.

542
00:27:07,879 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 3: After the break, we hear from a listener who's an

543
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 3: extrovert but says they're an introvert when it comes to

544
00:27:12,879 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 3: professional networking. Stay with Us, Bibby Hearb hearby, I'm having

545
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 3: a serious crisis.

546
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 2: Brb having a crisis.

547
00:27:26,879 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 3: We've reached that time in our episode where we answer

548
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 3: a question or dilemma from one of you, our listeners.

549
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: Anastasia. This one comes from Blake.

550
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 5: So I'm naturally outgoing and comfortable in social situations with friends.

551
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 5: I can talk for hours, crack jokes, carry a conversation

552
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 5: without overthinking. But the second I walk into a professional

553
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 5: networking event, it's like everything shuts down. I become hyper

554
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 5: aware of how I'm coming across second guess every word,

555
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 5: and start over analyzing whether I sound competent or completely

556
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 5: out of place. So frustrating because I know I'm capable

557
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 5: of connecting with people, but it's just something about that

558
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 5: formal that.

559
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 1: Triggers this anxiety.

560
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 5: I turn into this anxious version of myself that I

561
00:28:08,879 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 5: don't even recognize. I want to be seen as confident

562
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 5: and capable, but I can't seem to access that part

563
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 5: of myself that feels natural and easy when the stakes

564
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 5: feel higher.

565
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: I feel like this is again very relatable.

566
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: This is a common one.

567
00:28:22,639 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 4: I feel that people feel particularly uncomfortable when it comes

568
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 4: to networking, and I think this is because there is

569
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 4: a bit of an unspoken or unsaid a framework that

570
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 4: exists around networking versus hanging out with friends. When we're

571
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 4: hanging out with friends, we know the social rules and

572
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 4: the social norms. But when it comes to networking. Really,

573
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 4: the objective is to meet people, typically around our career,

574
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 4: who we might be able to connect with and potentially

575
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,039
Speaker 4: collaborate with in the future. I mean, that's the purpose

576
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 4: of networking, right to build the network. Yeah, but with

577
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 4: a real specific purpose, not to make friends. Even though

578
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 4: we might end up making friends, it's not the purpose

579
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 4: of it. So I think sometimes getting ourselves really clear

580
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 4: on the purpose of an interaction can be helpful. I

581
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 4: know that when I see my friends, the purpose is

582
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 4: to catch up, hear how we're going, share a few laughs,

583
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 4: have a bit of a deep and meaningful if required.

584
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,239
Speaker 4: You know, I know what the kind of framework is

585
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 4: if you go into networking events, have the framework in

586
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 4: mind that I'm here for a purpose. Also, have the

587
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 4: framework in mind that a lot of people at networking

588
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 4: events don't necessarily know anyone else, so you're not in

589
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 4: the same boat.

590
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 3: You know.

591
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 4: Anxiety can shine a spotlight inwards where we feel like

592
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 4: we're the only ones feeling nervous or anxious. As I

593
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,959
Speaker 4: was saying before, I love networking. That doesn't mean I

594
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 4: don't ever not like I feel uncomfortable and anxious when

595
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 4: I go to networking event.

596
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 2: Too, particularly if I don't know anyone.

597
00:29:58,720 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

598
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 2: Oh I have to go.

599
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 4: Walk up to a stranger and say hi and facilitate

600
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 4: some sort of chat.

601
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: That's not an easy thing to do.

602
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 4: So we can enjoy something and still find it uncomfortable

603
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 4: at times. So I would say to Blake, you know,

604
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 4: remember that you're not alone in that experience. A lot

605
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,719
Speaker 4: of people are probably feeling quite similar. But remember the

606
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 4: kind of objective. If you can go in with a goal,

607
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 4: that will help you direct your focus and direct your conversations.

608
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: I really love that because I think for me personally,

609
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 3: I love going to networking events, like I really thrive

610
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 3: off it. But I go through that space but before

611
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: I go, and I get really nervous and I'm like, oh,

612
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 3: maybe I don't want to go, maybe I shouldn't go,

613
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,999
Speaker 3: and I try to like not go, but then I'm like, no,

614
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 3: you should go. But I think one of the things

615
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 3: that have really helped me is just seeing, like being

616
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,039
Speaker 3: open and curious to know, oh who am I going

617
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 3: to meet? And then I think I always put on

618
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,239
Speaker 3: the lens of just curiosity to understand the other person,

619
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 3: like why they're there, and you know, hearing more about

620
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 3: their story and then you naturally find this flow because

621
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: you get out of your own head and you're just yeah,

622
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,479
Speaker 3: getting more curious about the other person.

623
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 4: Yes, they're those mindfulness skills, right, being present with the moment,

624
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 4: with what someone's telling you.

625
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 3: That's so true, Anastasia, Can you give us the main

626
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 3: takeaways for today's episode, which is the final episode of

627
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 3: this season.

628
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: No, don't tell me that, but yes, yes I can. Okay.

629
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 4: So, First of all, most people possess elements of both

630
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:37,239
Speaker 4: introversion and extraversion. Second, shyness is different to introversion because

631
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 4: shy people typically want to engage, but they're fearful. Third,

632
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 4: social anxiety is a clinical diagnosis that affects many people.

633
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 4: And last of all, exposing yourself to situations that provoke

634
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 4: anxiety is the best way to work through and overcome

635
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 4: the fear.

636
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 3: Guys, thank you so much for joining us for another

637
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 3: season of But Are You Happy. It's been an absolute honor.

638
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 3: If you have any topics you want us to cover

639
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: for future episodes, please get in contact with us. We

640
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 3: would love to hear from you. Send us a DM

641
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 3: on our Instagram at But Are You Happy?

642
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: Pod?

643
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 3: And there are a few ways to get in touch

644
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: with us. Links are in the show notes.

645
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 4: We hope that this season has given you plenty to

646
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 4: think about, from how your phone is rewiring your brain,

647
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 4: to strategies for overcoming procrastination, making meaningful new friendships as

648
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 4: an adult, and navigating grief in a healthier way.

649
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: And remember, while I am.

650
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 4: A psychologist, this podcast isn't a diagnostic tool, and the

651
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 4: advice and ideas that we present here should always take

652
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 4: into account your own personal medical history. The senior producer

653
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 4: of But Are You Happy is Charlie Blackman.

654
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,479
Speaker 3: The group executive producer is Naima Brown.

655
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.

656
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 3: And social producer is Jemma Donna, who you can find

657
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 3: us on Instagram and TikTok search at but Are You

658
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 3: Happy Pod? I'm a Shadi Dante.

659
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastasa Heronus.

660
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 4: The names and stories of clients discussed have been changed

661
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 4: for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If this conversation brought

662
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 4: up any difficult feelings for you, we have links for

663
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 4: more resources in the show notes around the topics we

664
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 4: discussed today. If you're wanting more immediate support, you can

665
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 4: contact organizations like Lifeline or Beyond Blue.

666
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening and will be back in your ears

667
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: next season for but are you happy?

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00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 4: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and

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Speaker 4: waters that this podcast is recorded on