Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded.
Speaker 3: On my therapist instead of meaning every two weeks, which
Speaker 3: is strewmining every week.
Speaker 4: Why is she so obsessed with me? We're like best friends.
Speaker 4: I knew she liked me.
Speaker 1: For Mama Maya. I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to
Speaker 1: But are you happy? Because I'm fine? Is the biggest
Speaker 1: lie in the group chat?
Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus, a clinical psychologist passionate about
Speaker 2: mental health and happiness. Have you heard of cognitive behavior
Speaker 2: therapy or EMDR or integrative psychotherapy, or animal assisted therapy
Speaker 2: or couple's therapy or attachment.
Speaker 1: Therapy, Anastasia, There's a lot of kinds of therapy out there.
Speaker 4: On there's more.
Speaker 2: Well, that's what we're going to be talking about today,
Speaker 2: the biggest mistakes that people make in therapy and how
Speaker 2: to find the kind of therapy that you really need.
Speaker 1: This is really important. Let's get to it, okay Anaesthasia.
Speaker 1: As a clinical psychologist, have you ever found in the
Speaker 1: therapy room that you had a client that didn't quite
Speaker 1: understand the brief for maybe they just weren't the right
Speaker 1: fit all the time.
Speaker 2: It happens all the time, and it's really important to
Speaker 2: have that right fit because the research tells us the
Speaker 2: therapeutic relationship that a client has with their therapist is
Speaker 2: the number one biggest predictor of therapy outcomes. It's the
Speaker 2: most important thing beyond the type of therapy that you're doing,
Speaker 2: or you know, other features relating to the diagnosis, etc.
Speaker 2: The therapeutic relationship between a client and therapist is the
Speaker 2: number one biggest predictor of change. So it is so
Speaker 2: important that you feel comfortable and secure and like you
Speaker 2: can be vulnerable with your therapists. You've got to feel
Speaker 2: like you've got that connection. If that's not there, I'd
Speaker 2: encourage people to try seek out a different therapist and
Speaker 2: see how that fit feels.
Speaker 1: Do you find it sometimes when clients come, is there
Speaker 1: like certain things that you don't feel comfortable with?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So different therapists and psychologists will have different areas
Speaker 2: of I guess expertise in the field, right, So most
Speaker 2: of us can deal with the more common mental health conditions.
Speaker 2: So most psychologists would be able to help someone with anxiety, depression, OCD, etc.
Speaker 2: But for example, I don't really work much with clients
Speaker 2: who have eating disorders. That's quite a specialized area of practice.
Speaker 2: It's something where you require a lot of upskilling in
Speaker 2: as a clinician to be able to do the appropriate
Speaker 2: therapy work. So it's not an area that I sort
Speaker 2: of delve into because I haven't done that training. So
Speaker 2: we all have kind of different areas that we might
Speaker 2: feel like we do more work in or we've upskilled in.
Speaker 4: For me, it's addictions.
Speaker 2: I really love working with clients who present with addiction
Speaker 2: related concerns. It's a little bit of a niche area,
Speaker 2: and it's an area that I've done sort of extra
Speaker 2: research and study into, so I feel quite competent doing
Speaker 2: that body of work.
Speaker 1: And it's really interesting you kind of speak into kind
Speaker 1: of essentially the criteria that's needed on both ends for
Speaker 1: there to be a bit of like a flow. There's
Speaker 1: a collaboration, right, And I know that you spoke to
Speaker 1: that a few episodes back when we were talking about
Speaker 1: therapy talk and how it's a two way street and
Speaker 1: there's got to be the similar values and goals to
Speaker 1: be aligned.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, absolutely, And I think that's where it's important
Speaker 2: for a person who's thinking about seeking out therapy if
Speaker 2: you do go to that first session to have an
Speaker 2: idea in mind as to what it is you're wanting
Speaker 2: to get out of therapy and treatment. At the same time,
Speaker 2: the therapist will be assessing the match, right, They'll be
Speaker 2: assessing whether or not they're the best person to help
Speaker 2: you with that. So when clients call the clinic, we
Speaker 2: do a little bit of what's called an intake, so
Speaker 2: we'll actually ask people over the phone, what is it
Speaker 2: that you're wanting assistance with? Just very generally speaking, they
Speaker 2: don't have to divulge a lot of information, but for example,
Speaker 2: if they did say I think I might have some
Speaker 2: problems with my eating patterns and body image, maybe an
Speaker 2: eating disorder, then we would allocate them to a clinician
Speaker 2: that does that work. Some of our clinicians, for example,
Speaker 2: don't necessarily work with children and adolescents or parents. That's
Speaker 2: another area in which a psychologist or a therapist really
Speaker 2: needs to be upskilled. So it's important to get from
Speaker 2: the outset as best as we can that match between
Speaker 2: what it is someone's wanting help with and the type
Speaker 2: of work that therapist does so a question.
Speaker 1: I have which I'm really curious about because I feel
Speaker 1: like therapy it feels like it's a bit of this
Speaker 1: muscle weaflex in today's world. It's like I go to therapy,
Speaker 1: you know, look at me. Do you feel like everyone
Speaker 1: should go to therapy?
Speaker 4: Oh, that's a tough one to answer.
Speaker 2: I mean, not everyone needs therapy, right, And I guess
Speaker 2: like I want to almost like break down what we're
Speaker 2: talking about when we say therapy or when I say therapy.
Speaker 2: Not everyone needs to see a psychologist or a clinical psychologist.
Speaker 2: The type of work that I might do and my
Speaker 2: colleagues might do is quite specialized in that we're looking
Speaker 2: to assess, diagnose, and treat mental health disorders. Right, But
Speaker 2: that's a percentage of the population, not everyone. Then there's
Speaker 2: people who want to better know themselves.
Speaker 4: They want tools and.
Speaker 2: Strategies to feel really solid in their day to day
Speaker 2: mental health and build that sense of wellness and well
Speaker 2: being within their lives.
Speaker 4: And I think that's great.
Speaker 2: They don't necessarily need to see a psychologist or a
Speaker 2: clinical psychologist.
Speaker 4: To do that. There's lots of self help resources.
Speaker 2: They can see, counselors, psychotherapists, you know, there's different options,
Speaker 2: So I think depending on what someone's wanting, there'll be
Speaker 2: different pathways to go down to get that sort of
Speaker 2: intervention or support.
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking about people tuning in because throughout these
Speaker 1: episodes across the season, you know, we've talked a lot
Speaker 1: about different topics around mental health, and a lot of
Speaker 1: the time at the end we talk about seeking professional help.
Speaker 1: So I kind of wanted to speak to what would
Speaker 1: you want to say to the people that are on
Speaker 1: the fence around or do I do therapy?
Speaker 2: I don't know, if you're questioning it, I would encourage
Speaker 2: you to maybe first talk to a GP or a doctor. Right,
Speaker 2: most of the referrals that we get are actually from doctors.
Speaker 2: They do up a mental health care plan and then
Speaker 2: a person can see a psychologist with some Medicare rebates often,
Speaker 2: but a GP or a doctor can be an excellent
Speaker 2: first point of contact to go through and say, look,
Speaker 2: I'm struggling with my thoughts.
Speaker 4: I keep thinking and I can't stop thinking.
Speaker 2: You know, it could be as basic as that, or
Speaker 2: my mood just feels off. I don't feel good when
Speaker 2: I wake up in the morning, and a GP will
Speaker 2: know how to do some assessing to ask the right
Speaker 2: questions to be able to understand your experience a bit more,
Speaker 2: and from that point on, they'll also be able to
Speaker 2: give you a recommendation as to whether they think you
Speaker 2: might need to see a therapist to work through these difficulties,
Speaker 2: whether you might need a blood test to check if
Speaker 2: you're low in iron right, you know, it could be
Speaker 2: a lot of other things that might have sort of
Speaker 2: a physical basis to it as well, or whether maybe
Speaker 2: you need to see a psychiatrist and be assessed for
Speaker 2: particular types of medications to assist with your mood and
Speaker 2: mental health. So there's lots of different options, but a
Speaker 2: GP can be a great first point of contact.
Speaker 1: And I think it's really great because I think when
Speaker 1: in doubt, it's like, why not just get it checked out?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 1: So I really love that. So I kind of wanted
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit more to kind of the
Speaker 1: myths that are out there, or just an opportunity to
Speaker 1: kind of shine a light on what are the biggest
Speaker 1: mistakes in therapy, because I'm sure you've seen a handful
Speaker 1: of lots of different kinds of people in the clinic room.
Speaker 2: Yes, mistakes or I guess misconceptions about therapy. Right, I'm
Speaker 2: like almost mindful about this word mistake being like a
Speaker 2: judgment that someone's doing it wrong, Like you're doing therapy wrong,
Speaker 2: you're failing a therapy. It's not that, it's maybe they
Speaker 2: come in with sort of misconceptions as to how therapy works,
Speaker 2: or misconceptions around what to expect from being in the
Speaker 2: therapy room. So one big one that I've seen through
Speaker 2: my years of practice is there can be a reluctance
Speaker 2: to share. Now, fair enough, Right, I am a strange
Speaker 2: person that you've never met before, sitting across from you
Speaker 2: in a comfy chair, expecting you to open up and
Speaker 2: share your deepest, darkest fears with me. Right, That's that's
Speaker 2: not a natural way in which we would communicate.
Speaker 4: In the real world.
Speaker 2: There's a fundamental imbalance in the therapy room that can
Speaker 2: feel really uncomfortable for people who've never done therapy before,
Speaker 2: and that is the client is expected to share lot
Speaker 2: and lots and lots of information about themselves, and the
Speaker 2: therapist generally.
Speaker 4: Doesn't share very much at all. Right, it's not about us.
Speaker 2: That dynamic is really unnatural in the real world. If
Speaker 2: we're talking to a friend, if we meet an acquaintance,
Speaker 2: if we're talking to a colleague, one person shares a
Speaker 2: little bit, the other person shares a bit, the next
Speaker 2: person shares a bit.
Speaker 4: And we build.
Speaker 2: That's how we build a connection through shared vulnerability. We
Speaker 2: don't have shared vulnerability in the therapy room. It's a
Speaker 2: different dynamic, and so that can be uncomfortable for people
Speaker 2: at first, and I don't blame them for that, but
Speaker 2: what it can lead to then is maybe them not
Speaker 2: sharing everything that might be important or relevant for the
Speaker 2: therapeutic process. So sometimes I'll see clients. They'll come in
Speaker 2: the first session and this is not uncommon. We'll get
Speaker 2: to like the last five minutes and I'll be like
Speaker 2: anything else, and then look, something comes out and it's
Speaker 2: usually a big thing.
Speaker 4: Oh okay, maybe we have to unpack that next session.
Speaker 2: So there's this sort of like holding and maybe a
Speaker 2: bit of testing the waters as well, just seeing how
Speaker 2: I or another psychologist might respond to their disclosures of
Speaker 2: personal information. So that's something that I see that can
Speaker 2: sometimes stall the therapy process a little bit. But hopefully
Speaker 2: it's our job as therapists and clinicians to help people
Speaker 2: feel comfortable to set the tone for the therapy room
Speaker 2: so that a person can feel like they can share
Speaker 2: that personal information with us.
Speaker 1: I like that you've kind of named the unnaturalness of it,
Speaker 1: because I think I know from friends who have gone
Speaker 1: to therapy they do speak a bit about that. They
Speaker 1: kind of just say, oh, but I want to know
Speaker 1: more about their person life, like I don't really know
Speaker 1: anything about them. And it is true, it is very
Speaker 1: one way, but it sounds like it's intentional.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And I think the reason one of the
Speaker 2: reasons that that's important is because A it's not about
Speaker 2: us as a therapist, but b it's also not about
Speaker 2: our experience.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: So, as a psychologist, I've studied the science behind how
Speaker 2: the mind and the brain works and how that influences
Speaker 2: certain emotions and.
Speaker 4: Behaviors, et cetera.
Speaker 2: My work as a therapist should not be based on
Speaker 2: what my life experiences have been and whether I've had
Speaker 2: similar life experiences to my client or not. It should
Speaker 2: be based on the science and the psychological frameworks that
Speaker 2: I've studied that I know can help a person with
Speaker 2: the challenges they're facing.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what are some of the other misconceptions out there?
Speaker 2: Okay, so the kind of holding back information avoiding that vulnerability.
Speaker 2: I think another misconception could be thinking that all the
Speaker 2: therapy happens in the therapy room. So sometimes we see
Speaker 2: people come to therapy, they do their fifty sixty minute session,
Speaker 2: We talk through all the stuff, we give them some
Speaker 2: tools and strategies, and then they leave the room and
Speaker 2: they come back next week. But not much happens in
Speaker 2: the in between. And when I say not much happens,
Speaker 2: what I really actually mean is not much changes. The
Speaker 2: therapy room is going to be one hour of your week.
Speaker 2: But in reality, what we want to try and do
Speaker 2: is help people build the skills and the tools to
Speaker 2: be able to make changes in their day to day
Speaker 2: life outside.
Speaker 4: Of the therapy room.
Speaker 2: And so what this often comes with is some degree
Speaker 2: of homework. I have mixed feelings about the word homework,
Speaker 2: and I remind me of school. But it's like there
Speaker 2: are some tasks, some activities, some practices for people to
Speaker 2: do in their day to day life.
Speaker 4: We could do all the.
Speaker 2: Best talking in the therapy room. That's possible, but if
Speaker 2: nothing changes, nothing changes.
Speaker 1: And it's important because I can imagine that the real
Speaker 1: work happens outside of the therapy room, like the integration
Speaker 1: the real life, you're in life as well, So I
Speaker 1: can get how that's really important.
Speaker 2: It's one thing for us to talk about how to
Speaker 2: manage a panic attack in the therapy room when a
Speaker 2: person's not having a panic attack, but it's another thing
Speaker 2: for them to go out and then apply those skills when.
Speaker 4: They're in the thick of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So what else?
Speaker 2: Another one is clients may be feeling like they can't
Speaker 2: share their thoughts about how the therapy process is going. Now,
Speaker 2: this goes two ways, right, I think it's really on
Speaker 2: the therapist to be able to create a space and
Speaker 2: ask questions that invite feedback. So I want to know
Speaker 2: if my clients feel like the therapy is working for them, right,
Speaker 2: I want to know if they feel comfortable. I want
Speaker 2: I don't know if they feel like they're making progress.
Speaker 2: And so we as therapists have a responsibility to be
Speaker 2: asking those questions and actively checking in with our clients.
Speaker 2: But if there is something that someone feels like isn't
Speaker 2: working for them, voice that share that.
Speaker 4: With your therapist.
Speaker 2: We need the feedback so that we can provide strategies
Speaker 2: and treatments that work for you. I could have the
Speaker 2: best strategy or solution that I think is going to
Speaker 2: be great for someone, but if they turn around and say,
Speaker 2: I'm never going to do that.
Speaker 4: Then let's try something else.
Speaker 2: It's like when we talked about in episode one with anxiety,
Speaker 2: like the ice cold showers. Right, I could be like,
Speaker 2: I have the best tip for you, and if someone's like,
Speaker 2: you got buckleys of me getting in a cold shower,
Speaker 2: I'd be like, right, let's try another strategy. So we've
Speaker 2: got to work collaboratively. As you said before, collaboration is
Speaker 2: key when it comes to therapy.
Speaker 1: Mmm. I love that. I think so often when we
Speaker 1: look at therapy in pop culture, you know, it's the
Speaker 1: classic when you're watching a movie, someone's laying on the
Speaker 1: couch sharing everything. But I'm curious to know what is
Speaker 1: therapy actually, like, what does it look like?
Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you that I don't have a
Speaker 2: couch that you lie down on, damn it. I've got
Speaker 2: some comfy couches that you can sit in, like the armchairs.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but not a lie down couch.
Speaker 2: I'm afraid there's lots of different types of therapy, and
Speaker 2: I agree that there's a bit of a misconception maybe
Speaker 2: as to what therapy actually looks like in the therapy room.
Speaker 2: Maybe I can give you a bit of a therapy
Speaker 2: one oh one on maybe like the four different common
Speaker 2: types of therapies we've seen, but also how therapies evolved
Speaker 2: over time, so that people can understand maybe what the
Speaker 2: best therapy approach might be for them. And look, that's
Speaker 2: what a psychologist is there to do, to assess and
Speaker 2: also provide a recommendation as to what type of therapy
Speaker 2: might suit you best. But I'll give a couple of
Speaker 2: brief explainers of some common types of therapies.
Speaker 1: How's that. I love that we're ready for therapy one
Speaker 1: on one?
Speaker 2: All right, so we go, so back into the ages.
Speaker 2: The most well established therapeutic approach that we have is
Speaker 2: something called cognitive behavioral therapy c BT for short, and
Speaker 2: cognitive behavior therapy looks at our thoughts, our feelings, and
Speaker 2: our behaviors and how the three of these are connected.
Speaker 4: Right. Hence, cognitive and.
Speaker 2: Behavioral CBT has a lot of evidence to support its
Speaker 2: use for things like anxiety, depression, OCD, even eating disorders.
Speaker 2: Lots of evidence behind CBT. However, CBT focuses very heavily
Speaker 2: on change, right, how can you change your thinking? How
Speaker 2: can you change your emotional state? And how can you
Speaker 2: change your behaviors? Now, that is very helpful for some people. However,
Speaker 2: if you come to the therapy room and you've experienced trauma,
Speaker 2: if you've experienced chronic patterns of invalidation, if you are
Speaker 2: someone who's been given a terminal or life changing diagnosis,
Speaker 2: walking into the therapy room and having a therapist say
Speaker 2: to you how can you change your thinking about that
Speaker 2: is going to be a highly invalidating experience. If I
Speaker 2: come in and tell you I've had this traumatic experience
Speaker 2: and you tell someone to change their thinking, that does
Speaker 2: not land well, that's highly invalidating.
Speaker 4: So the reason I say.
Speaker 2: This is because there's a newer wave of therapies that
Speaker 2: have emerged that focus on change as well as acceptance,
Speaker 2: and we're always looking at how we can balance these two.
Speaker 2: So we have therapies like acceptance and commitment therapy, which
Speaker 2: is ACT for SUT that really focuses on how can
Speaker 2: we work with sort of mindfulness based strategies to accept
Speaker 2: our thoughts, our feelings, and our behaviors. Now I'm going
Speaker 2: to jump in I'm going to get I'm going to
Speaker 2: get on my acceptance kind of ramble here and say,
Speaker 2: acceptance is not approval, right, Acceptance does not mean that
Speaker 2: I approve or I like the experience. It just means
Speaker 2: that I can sit with it and go it is
Speaker 2: what it is. I'm having this emotional experience right now.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to try and change it. I'm just
Speaker 2: going to accept it for what it is and it
Speaker 2: will make it pass easier. So we've got our acceptance
Speaker 2: and commitment therapy. Then we have DBT dialectical behavior therapy
Speaker 2: that again focuses on that balance between acceptance and change.
Speaker 2: And this specific type of therapy is quite useful for
Speaker 2: people who have conditions like complex trauma, borderline personality disorder,
Speaker 2: addiction concerns, some eating disorder, and sort of chronic experiences
Speaker 2: of emotions that feel out of control, emotion dysregulation. And
Speaker 2: then one more I'll touch on is EMDR. This is
Speaker 2: a newer type of therapy. It's quite popular at the
Speaker 2: moment for the right people. I Movement Desensitization and reprocessing EMDR.
Speaker 2: It's a bit of a mouthful, it is, but this
Speaker 2: has been really developed to help people who are trying
Speaker 2: to recover from traumatic experiences that they've had through utilizing
Speaker 2: sort of eye movements to reprocess traumatic memories.
Speaker 1: There really is a lot of different kinds of therapy,
Speaker 1: isn't there?
Speaker 2: And there's more, but these are anight.
Speaker 1: Now and those are the most with like the most
Speaker 1: evidence as well.
Speaker 4: Yes, there's some other therapies.
Speaker 2: There's scheme of therapy for example, there's other therapies that
Speaker 2: do have evidence behind them. And again, I think there
Speaker 2: can be some benefit in trying to do a bit
Speaker 2: of homework and research around these different type of therapies
Speaker 2: if you think one might be benefit issue for you.
Speaker 2: But ultimately it's a conversation to have with your psychologist
Speaker 2: or with your therapist, because based on an assessment, they
Speaker 2: will be able to determine what they think is the
Speaker 2: best fit for you.
Speaker 1: So what about couple's therapy, Like, what are the common
Speaker 1: misconceptions that can happen there?
Speaker 2: Well, probably one of the most common things I see
Speaker 2: is that one person in the relationship will come to
Speaker 2: a psychologist like myself wanting help with the relationship. So
Speaker 2: they'll come into the room, they'll tell me about the
Speaker 2: struggles that they're having in the relationship and they want
Speaker 2: some advice or guidance or tools and strategies as to
Speaker 2: how to make things better. Now, we can do that
Speaker 2: to a degree, but ultimately that's a situation where couple's
Speaker 2: therapy is going to be more beneficial. And I often
Speaker 2: say that to the person. I'll say, look, we can
Speaker 2: work one on one to help upskill you with the
Speaker 2: strategies until that might be helpful for you. However, one,
Speaker 2: it may have limited effect because the other person in
Speaker 2: your relationship is not here. And second, it might end
Speaker 2: up feeling like the onus is all on you to
Speaker 2: then try and fix the problems in the relationship because
Speaker 2: you're the only one here in the therapy room getting
Speaker 2: the tools and the strategies and the guidance around it.
Speaker 2: So you might end up feeling like you're carrying the
Speaker 2: load of trying to repair or improve the relationship, and
Speaker 2: that's not going to feel particularly fair on you. So
Speaker 2: I think that's a misconception that I see where people
Speaker 2: come in wanting to fix a relationship, but they're not there.
Speaker 4: With their partner.
Speaker 1: I wanted to quickly out on that because I've definitely
Speaker 1: had experiences with friends where they want to get couple's therapy,
Speaker 1: but one is keen and the other isn't. So what
Speaker 1: do you say about that? Like when the partner's just
Speaker 1: resistant to wanting to get therapy.
Speaker 4: It's really hard.
Speaker 2: I think they're the situations where at at least one
Speaker 2: person going and getting support is better than no people
Speaker 2: going and getting support. But ultimately, if both can be
Speaker 2: open to just giving it a try and seeing what happens,
Speaker 2: that would be ideal.
Speaker 1: After this shortbreak, doctor Anastasia is going to give you
Speaker 1: some clear guidance on how to find the right therapist
Speaker 1: for you and how to make sure you're getting the
Speaker 1: most out of therapy. Atasasia, we've established that knowing that
Speaker 1: you might benefit from therapy is a great first step,
Speaker 1: but how do we make sure that we get the
Speaker 1: right therapist and how do we make the most of it.
Speaker 2: So first step is finding the psychologist, the therapist, the
Speaker 2: person that's the right fit for you. So, if you're
Speaker 2: considering getting some professional help but you're not sure where
Speaker 2: to start, as I said, first off, try the GP.
Speaker 2: The GP might be able to actually recommend some specific
Speaker 2: psychologists or therapists in your local area that could be helpful.
Speaker 2: But if you're wanting to look beyond that. There's a
Speaker 2: website called Psychology Today where lots and lots and lots
Speaker 2: of psychologists and counselors and therapists have their profiles listed,
Speaker 2: and it can be a great resource to put in
Speaker 2: your postcode and seek out some therapists that might be
Speaker 2: local to where you live or where you work.
Speaker 4: If you're wanting to check out.
Speaker 2: A bit of the therapist and sort of the work
Speaker 2: that they do, what types of therapies they use, what
Speaker 2: types of clients.
Speaker 4: They typically see. You can get a bit of.
Speaker 2: A sense of who they are and the work that
Speaker 2: they do from their profiles on Psychology Today. Next step
Speaker 2: would be actually contacting maybe a few different psychologists right
Speaker 2: and sharing what it is you're wanting help with. As
Speaker 2: I said, if you feel like you're struggling with anxiety,
Speaker 2: if you struggle with eating concerns, if you're struggling with
Speaker 2: an addiction, whatever, it might be calling up that clinic
Speaker 2: or that therapist and sharing this is what I'm wanting
Speaker 2: help with. Who would be the best psychologist at your
Speaker 2: clinic to see me? Just like gps have different areas
Speaker 2: of specialty, right, some gps specialize in women's health, others don't.
Speaker 2: Some specialize in skin, skin tags and skin removal of conditions, right,
Speaker 2: others don't. So you want to find a therapist who
Speaker 2: has knowledge in what you're wanting assistance with, and the
Speaker 2: clinic that you call should be able to give you
Speaker 2: some guidance around that.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like we're essentially shopping for the best
Speaker 1: psychologist in a way, you know, like who's going to
Speaker 1: be the right fit, the.
Speaker 4: Right fit exactly.
Speaker 2: Then I would say, once you have that initial appointment,
Speaker 2: you're in the therapy room, maybe before you even walk in,
Speaker 2: write down a couple of dot points for yourself as
Speaker 2: to what it is you're hoping to get.
Speaker 4: Out of therapy.
Speaker 2: Now, I say this with care because you're not expected
Speaker 2: to know all the answers, right, You're not expected to
Speaker 2: know what you're experiencing and where it is you'd like
Speaker 2: to get with certainty. But if you have some idea
Speaker 2: as to the trajectory you want to head in or
Speaker 2: the goal as you'd like to achieve for yourself, that
Speaker 2: can be useful information for the therapist to be able
Speaker 2: to say, oh, look, maybe that sounds unrealistic or absolutely
Speaker 2: that's something we can help with or yes, we can
Speaker 2: do that, but it might take a bit of time.
Speaker 1: Okay, So we've established now that therapy is very beneficial.
Speaker 1: So how do we make sure we find the right therapist?
Speaker 1: And when we do find the right therapist, how do
Speaker 1: we make the most out of it.
Speaker 2: Yes, as therapists, we work according to the mantra of
Speaker 2: unrelenting positive regard. Right, my job as a therapist is
Speaker 2: to have unrelenting, without limits positive regard for my clients.
Speaker 2: That means that I'm non judgmental, that I'm not sitting
Speaker 2: here with my clipboard judging what you say, but that
Speaker 2: I'm open and curious to understand your life and your experience.
Speaker 4: If I can't do that, if I can't.
Speaker 2: Sit in the room with my client and be open
Speaker 2: and non judgmental, I'm not the right therapist for this client,
Speaker 2: and I'm best to refer them to someone else who
Speaker 2: can sit with them and not have that bias and
Speaker 2: that judgment.
Speaker 4: So I would say, if a person has fears.
Speaker 2: Around opening up and sharing vulnerably, our job as therapists
Speaker 2: is to be non judgmental and to welcome that vulnerability
Speaker 2: into the room. I also want to say we've heard
Speaker 2: and seen most things.
Speaker 4: Right, It's a.
Speaker 2: Rare day these days that someone says something that shocks me.
Speaker 2: And I say that to give comfort to people who
Speaker 2: might think that they're going to walk into the therapy
Speaker 2: room and say something that is so terrible or so
Speaker 2: shameful or so devastating that I.
Speaker 4: Would judge them for it.
Speaker 2: We've heard a lot, and so I say, bring it
Speaker 2: all in, Lay it out on the table. You know,
Speaker 2: tell us about your sex life, tell us about the
Speaker 2: times you've done things that you're really not proud of
Speaker 2: yourself for. Tell us about the mistakes you've made. We
Speaker 2: understand that you're human and it's our job.
Speaker 4: We're here to help.
Speaker 1: So it's just laying out all the mess. Just lay
Speaker 1: it all out, no shame, just go for it.
Speaker 4: And will help you sort through it.
Speaker 1: So is there anything that you do as a therapist
Speaker 1: to make sure that the client feels really comfortable?
Speaker 2: The thing I focus on for myself and in terms
Speaker 2: of how I show up in the room is authenticity.
Speaker 2: While I don't necessarily reveal a lot about myself and
Speaker 2: my life to my clients, you know, they wouldn't know
Speaker 2: about my personal relationships and things like that. I always
Speaker 2: always aim to show up emotionally in a way that's authentic.
Speaker 2: So I don't have a different persona when I walk
Speaker 2: into the therapy room. I'm me, not at a stage
Speaker 2: of the psychologist. I'm still just Anastasia, the same way
Speaker 2: I'm talking on this podcast with you, in the same
Speaker 2: way I am in the workplace, pretty much the same
Speaker 2: I am with friends, family, etc. Those parts of my
Speaker 2: personality are still there, and I think that's not going
Speaker 2: to work for everyone, right, People gel with others in
Speaker 2: different ways, So my personality and who I am as
Speaker 2: a person might not be the right fit for everyone,
Speaker 2: and that's okay. But I always aim to show up
Speaker 2: authentically because that's what I'm asking my clients to do.
Speaker 4: I'm asking people to come in here and be vulnerable and.
Speaker 2: Be authentic, so I need to show them the same
Speaker 2: respect in return.
Speaker 1: So what you're trying to tell us is that we've
Speaker 1: been in the therapy with you this whole season because
Speaker 1: you've been the same person.
Speaker 4: Right, It's like being in the therapy.
Speaker 1: Anastasia without you, guys knowing. Surprise. Okay, So where does
Speaker 1: tellyhealth come into all of this? Because a lot of
Speaker 1: people are using it more right.
Speaker 4: Absolutely since COVID.
Speaker 2: I mean it was one of the beneficial things that
Speaker 2: came out of COVID is that we realized, hey, online
Speaker 2: therapy really can work. And actually there's been a lot
Speaker 2: of research done into this. Whether in person or online
Speaker 2: therapy is more effective and really the results are pretty similar.
Speaker 2: Online telehealth sessions can be just as effective as in person.
Speaker 2: Now some people prefer in person they feel more connected
Speaker 2: to their therapist, but online can be really really useful.
Speaker 2: And the other thing about online that I really like
Speaker 2: is it's convenient and it's accessible.
Speaker 4: You know, if you live.
Speaker 2: In a rural or remote or regional area, or if
Speaker 2: you have a busy work schedule, you can schedule and
Speaker 2: appointments in your lunch break or just after you finish work.
Speaker 2: You don't have to worry about the commutes to go
Speaker 2: and see the therapists. So people can fit it into
Speaker 2: their schedules more easily nowadays as well with online therapy,
Speaker 2: and I think that breaks down one of the barriers
Speaker 2: to actually being able to access it.
Speaker 1: So with telehealth, like, is it cheaper than seeing someone
Speaker 1: face to face?
Speaker 2: It can be, but it might not be depends on
Speaker 2: the therapist, the service that you're going through, and the
Speaker 2: sort of fees that they charge. I do know that
Speaker 2: there are some clinicians who do only telehealth, and sometimes
Speaker 2: they're in a position where they can offer reduced fee
Speaker 2: sessions because they don't have the overheads of needing a
Speaker 2: physical space. They do the therapy from their home, so
Speaker 2: their kind of costs of running their practice are lower
Speaker 2: than what someone else's might be. So there definitely can
Speaker 2: be some telehealth options that can be cheaper than in person,
Speaker 2: but also cost is a barrier, right, and so I
Speaker 2: want to really highlight that because it can mean that
Speaker 2: people who need to see someone feel like they're not
Speaker 2: able to because of how expensive it can be. There
Speaker 2: are some fantastic self help online resources these days so
Speaker 2: too that I'm going to give a little bit of
Speaker 2: a shout out to. There's a pro program or online
Speaker 2: service called this Way up Right, evidence based programs that
Speaker 2: are specific for different mental health conditions. So there's like
Speaker 2: one for OCD, one for anxiety. You work through them
Speaker 2: at your own pace, and they're very accessible. Sometimes you
Speaker 2: can get them for free, sometimes it's a very low cost.
Speaker 2: But there's also a clinic called mind spot right. This
Speaker 2: is run out of McClary University actually, and what it
Speaker 2: is it's again online evidence based programs that you work
Speaker 2: through and you can get either phone or email support
Speaker 2: from a therapist as you work through it.
Speaker 4: So these kind of fall into.
Speaker 2: The category of what I would refer to as like
Speaker 2: early intervention self help type programs that can be assisted
Speaker 2: by a therapist. They may not be the right treatment
Speaker 2: approach for someone who's experiencing very severe mental health concerns,
Speaker 2: but for someone who wants to do something to help
Speaker 2: themselves but doesn't feel like seeing a therapist online or
Speaker 2: in person is the right step.
Speaker 4: Right now, there are these.
Speaker 2: Kinds of evidence based options, often run via universities that
Speaker 2: can be great resources.
Speaker 1: So what do you do for someone that feels like
Speaker 1: they might have a severe issue and they don't think
Speaker 1: the self pace is going to work and just having
Speaker 1: a bit of support here and there isn't going to work. So, like,
Speaker 1: what should we do for people that have a very
Speaker 1: severe condition and still need that one on one, hands
Speaker 1: on support and they might not have the money for it.
Speaker 4: Through your local health services.
Speaker 2: At least in Australia, we're lucky here we have access
Speaker 2: to some free options. You are able to see mental
Speaker 2: health professional psychologists, psychiatrists. The issue is that there's often
Speaker 2: a weight, So it's not that you're unable to access
Speaker 2: free or very low cost mental health services in Australia.
Speaker 2: It might just be that you are waiting to get
Speaker 2: in to see someone. I guess this is also the
Speaker 2: point where I want to say we've talked a lot
Speaker 2: about how to find a therapist and get into the
Speaker 2: groove of therapy for people who really have the luxury
Speaker 2: of being able to seek out and see a therapist.
Speaker 2: And that's not everyone, right, and not everyone can wait.
Speaker 2: So for people out there who may be struggling, who
Speaker 2: may be having an acute episode of mental health distress,
Speaker 2: or who might just need quite urgent assistance, I would
Speaker 2: encourage you to consider going to the emergency department, calling
Speaker 2: Triple zero, calling Lifeline, or calling the mental health line.
Speaker 2: So in New South Wales where we're based, we have
Speaker 2: the Acute Care Team and a mental health line where
Speaker 2: you can call for yourself or for someone else to
Speaker 2: make a referral for someone who's needing some acute care,
Speaker 2: and different states have their own hotline for this, so
Speaker 2: you can look that up online, but there is definitely
Speaker 2: immediate help available when you need it.
Speaker 1: After this shotbreak, we hear from someone who wants to
Speaker 1: break up with her therapist, but she doesn't know how
Speaker 1: stay with us.
Speaker 4: Erb Barb Bibby.
Speaker 2: I'm having a serious crisis, Berb having a crisis.
Speaker 1: Okay, we've reached that time in our episode where we
Speaker 1: answer a question or dilemma from one of you, our listeners,
Speaker 1: And this one's a really special one because it's the
Speaker 1: last one for the season. And yeah, I'm very excited
Speaker 1: about this one. You're about to hear from Ariana.
Speaker 3: I've been seeing my therapist for like two years and
Speaker 3: she's really helped me a lot, But honestly, I feel
Speaker 3: like I don't really need therapy right now. The problem
Speaker 3: is I have no idea how to actually break up
Speaker 3: with her. We're not friends or anything, so it feels
Speaker 3: weird to just stop going without saying anything. Do I
Speaker 3: have to tell her I'm done? Should I email, call
Speaker 3: or bring it up next session. I don't want to
Speaker 3: be rude or make it awkward, but I don't want
Speaker 3: to keep going if it's not helping me anymore. So, like,
Speaker 3: what's the best way to handle this.
Speaker 2: Ah, therapy goodbyes, the therapy breakup.
Speaker 4: This happens all the time.
Speaker 2: No, you know what, first thing I have to say
Speaker 2: is don't worry about it too much. Right there's no
Speaker 2: perfect way to do this, but it's important that you
Speaker 2: communicate to your therapist if you feel like you're.
Speaker 4: In a good place, because hooray, that's.
Speaker 2: Great, that's what we want, right We don't want you
Speaker 2: to be in therapy forever. Therapy should be for a
Speaker 2: period of time until you feel like you're at a
Speaker 2: good place where you can go out into the world
Speaker 2: on your own and the door is always open where
Speaker 2: here if you ever want to come back and re
Speaker 2: engage any point in the future.
Speaker 4: But if you're wondering how.
Speaker 2: To do the actual goodbye, there could be a couple
Speaker 2: of different ways. You could send an email to say
Speaker 2: thanks for your help. I actually feel like I'm in
Speaker 2: a really good place right now. I feel confident to
Speaker 2: be able to here's the skills and strategies you've taught me,
Speaker 2: and I'm not struggling with the things that I was
Speaker 2: struggling with two years ago.
Speaker 4: So I think I'd like to pause things.
Speaker 2: For now, and if I need anything in the future,
Speaker 2: I'll email you again, and you know what.
Speaker 4: That's always a It's a.
Speaker 2: Bitter sweet email to reply, right Like, I have a
Speaker 2: fondness for my clients, and of course I'm going to
Speaker 2: be a little bit sad if i don't get to
Speaker 2: see them anymore.
Speaker 4: But when I end.
Speaker 2: A therapeutic journey with a client, I'll say to them
Speaker 2: in a joking way.
Speaker 4: I mean this in the nicest way possible, but I
Speaker 4: hope I never see you again, because that's a good
Speaker 4: sign for you. It's not that I don't want to
Speaker 4: see you again. I like you, but.
Speaker 2: I hope that you feel like you can go through
Speaker 2: life without needing my help.
Speaker 1: So there is an end point to therapy.
Speaker 4: There should be. Yeah, look, not for everyone.
Speaker 2: There are people who will be in and out of
Speaker 2: therapy throughout their life, depending on what their diagnosis might be.
Speaker 2: But for many of us, there should be an end
Speaker 2: point to therapy.
Speaker 1: So they determine the endpoint or do you like, how
Speaker 1: does that happen?
Speaker 4: This is actually a really good question.
Speaker 2: I'll have a conversation with my clients at a certain
Speaker 2: point where I think they don't really need me anymore,
Speaker 2: because ethically, I have a professional duty to let someone know, Hey,
Speaker 2: you know that anxiety you came in with a year ago, Well, it.
Speaker 4: Looks like it's not there anymore. Good on you.
Speaker 2: So I'll have a conversation with someone where I say
Speaker 2: something like, based on the reasons you originally came in,
Speaker 2: it seems like you've made leaps and bounds in your progress,
Speaker 2: and I'm wondering if you even need to keep continuing
Speaker 2: with sessions. That's not to say I'm kicking you out
Speaker 2: the door and you can't come back. You can, of
Speaker 2: course keep coming for sessions if you want, but I
Speaker 2: want to let you know that, from my opinion, you're doing.
Speaker 4: Heaps better now.
Speaker 2: That for me is letting the client know you don't
Speaker 2: need to come from a kind of professional clinical diagnosis perspective.
Speaker 2: We've ticked the box and you're doing heaps better. Right,
Speaker 2: So that's my professional duty to let someone know that.
Speaker 2: But I'm leaving the option up to them if they
Speaker 2: want to keep coming and talking through things that are
Speaker 2: going on in their life, for things that might be
Speaker 2: challenges for them and stressing them out. We can absolutely
Speaker 2: do that, but I don't want people to feel like
Speaker 2: they need to keep coming, and so once I reach
Speaker 2: that point with a client, I'll often finish sessions by
Speaker 2: saying something like, what would you like to do for
Speaker 2: the next one? What do you think we should do?
Speaker 2: When does it feel like it would be a good
Speaker 2: time for you to come back and have another session.
Speaker 2: If someone is not needing to follow a strict treatment
Speaker 2: plan to overcome a clinical diagnosis, we can be much
Speaker 2: more flexible in the way that we do therapy, and so.
Speaker 4: I always want to leave the door.
Speaker 2: Open for a client to feel like they have autonomy
Speaker 2: in making that decision.
Speaker 4: Can you tell us.
Speaker 1: Some of your breakup stories? I'm really keen to hear
Speaker 1: more about your breakup story the collection. Yes, let's get
Speaker 1: out the archives.
Speaker 4: Look.
Speaker 2: I guess this example has been kind of a nice
Speaker 2: neat one where someone's done therapy, they've got better, it's
Speaker 2: been two years, they're ending, right, there's a nice close.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we get the no reply, like we're like, hey,
Speaker 2: would you like another session? We've been, you know, doing
Speaker 2: some work in therapy. Would you like to come back?
Speaker 2: And sometimes people will you know, ghost us, you got ghosted,
Speaker 2: been ghosted not a couple of times, but you know
Speaker 2: what I in any of these situations, I try to
Speaker 2: tell myself, like, don't take it personally, Like I'm leaving
Speaker 2: the door open. If there's some feedback a client wants
Speaker 2: to give me of like, hey, you wanted to take
Speaker 2: me down this path, but I didn't want to go
Speaker 2: down that path, you know, I like to think that.
Speaker 2: I'm open to hearing that. So I'm open to the
Speaker 2: feedback and also understand that it's not the right fit
Speaker 2: for everyone.
Speaker 4: I'm not going to be the.
Speaker 2: Best psychologist for every person who walks through the door.
Speaker 4: I know that.
Speaker 2: And so if we have a couple of session and
Speaker 2: someone's like, oh, that Anastasia girls, she's too casual for me. Like,
Speaker 2: I'm pretty casual in my therapy sessions. Other psychologists are
Speaker 2: way more sort of like therapists behind the clipboard, more reserved.
Speaker 4: Than I am.
Speaker 2: That's fine, but I know I'm not going to be
Speaker 2: the right therapist for everyone, and so I take that
Speaker 2: on board when clients may be say, you know what,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna try someone else, And in that case, I
Speaker 2: might help them find some some other therapists or give
Speaker 2: them some recommendations for what they're after.
Speaker 1: At Assia, I'm so happy that we had this discussion
Speaker 1: because therapy can feel so overwhelming and intimidating at times,
Speaker 1: So I'm really glad you got to step everything out.
Speaker 1: Can you reiterate to us some of the main takeaways
Speaker 1: from today's episode.
Speaker 4: One hundred percent?
Speaker 2: First up, the process of going to therapy can feel
Speaker 2: overwhelming and a bit scary for those who've never done
Speaker 2: it before. Second, sometimes people have some inaccurate expectations about
Speaker 2: therapy and what it will do for you. People might
Speaker 2: think that they can get immediate results or think the
Speaker 2: therapists can fix all their problems. Therapy, in fact, often
Speaker 2: requires you to do some work outside of the therapy room. Next,
Speaker 2: try to be as open and honest as you can
Speaker 2: be with your therapist. The more we know, the better
Speaker 2: we can help you. Nothing is off limits. And finally,
Speaker 2: ensure that you feel you have a solid therapeutic relationship
Speaker 2: with your therapist. The relationship is the biggest predictor of change,
Speaker 2: so if that doesn't feel right, always consider trying another therapist.
Speaker 1: Anthysia, I can't believe it. This is our last episode
Speaker 1: for this season.
Speaker 2: Oh, it makes me a bit emotional. What an incredible
Speaker 2: nine weeks it's been.
Speaker 4: Hey, we've covered.
Speaker 2: So much ground, from boundaries to narcissism, to inner critics
Speaker 2: to dating guys.
Speaker 1: If you have loved this show as much as we've
Speaker 1: loved making it for you, please do leave us a
Speaker 1: rating and a review Wherever you're listening to us, follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram and TikTok at But Are You Happy Pod,
Speaker 1: and stay in touch. It really does make a massive difference.
Speaker 2: And if you're not already following this podcast, make sure
Speaker 2: you hit that follow button to hear updates from us
Speaker 2: soon about when we will be back in your ears
Speaker 2: with the next season of But Are You Happy?
Speaker 1: Until then, be kind to yourselves out there.
Speaker 2: The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Niama Brown.
Speaker 1: Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 4: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1: I'm a Shany Dante and.
Speaker 2: I'm doctor Anastasia Hornus. The names and stories of clients
Speaker 2: discussed have been changed for the purposes of maintaining anonymity.
Speaker 2: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
Speaker 2: we have links for more resources in the show notes
Speaker 2: around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach
Speaker 2: out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
Speaker 2: wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.