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Speaker 1: You're listening too, I'm Amama podcast. You know, I brought

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Speaker 1: this up with my husband. I was like, Okay, look,

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Speaker 1: you know we're here, we're young, we're reasonably hot. We

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Speaker 1: should go and try these things while we still got it.

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Speaker 1: And his response, of course, coming from where he was

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Speaker 1: coming from with his family contact and you know how

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Speaker 1: he'd been raising, he's like, decent people don't do this,

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Speaker 1: Decent married people don't do this, and definitely, you, as

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Speaker 1: a decent married woman, should not even be thinking about this.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to No Filter. I'm Kitline Brook. It

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Speaker 2: feels like everyone is suddenly talking about open marriage, partly

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Speaker 2: because of Lily Allen, who revealed on her latest album

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Speaker 2: that she and her husband David Harbor had opened their

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Speaker 2: marriage and that it went very, very badly. Her songs

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Speaker 2: paint this picture of hurt and resentment and the kind

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Speaker 2: of emotional fallout that instantly makes you think, well.

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Speaker 3: That's why you shouldn't do it.

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Speaker 2: But that's only one version of the experience, and today

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Speaker 2: we're bringing you another, a very different one deeper. Paul

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Speaker 2: has been in an open marriage for almost a decade.

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Speaker 2: She's married to Marcus.

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Speaker 3: She also has a boyfriend who she loves.

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Speaker 2: They share a child, a home, and a life that

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Speaker 2: is unconventional but deeply considered. And for Deeper and Marcus,

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Speaker 2: opening their marriage didn't destroy them. It made them stronger.

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Speaker 2: People are endlessly curious about how it works. They want

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Speaker 2: to know the rules, the boundaries, the jealousy, the logistics,

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Speaker 2: the emotional math of loving more than one person. So

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Speaker 2: today I ask Deeper the questions people always want to ask,

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Speaker 2: but never feel brave enough to say out loud, or

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Speaker 2: never have the opportunity. This is one woman's honest account

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Speaker 2: of being a wife, a mother, and a girlfriend all

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Speaker 2: at the same time. And why for her letting go

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Speaker 2: of monogamy wasn't the end of her marriage. It was

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Speaker 2: the beginning of a different kind of love story. Deeper, Paul,

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Speaker 2: welcome to No Filter. You've written this book, Ask me

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Speaker 2: how it works. It's the story of you, a woman

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Speaker 2: who has a husband and a boyfriend right.

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Speaker 3: And a child and a job.

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Speaker 2: But you are a most unexpected person for me anyway,

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Speaker 2: because when you talk to people who are swingers or

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Speaker 2: who are polyamorous or whatever, they tend in my experience

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Speaker 2: to be kind of a bit racy. But you are

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Speaker 2: not those things. You're cute, like unexpectedly cute.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: You are of Philippina and Indian heritage, correct, which is.

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Speaker 3: Of such a conservative culture.

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Speaker 1: On both sides. Yeah. True.

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Speaker 3: So you grew up in the Philippines.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was born in Manila, so my father was

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Speaker 1: Indian and my mum is Filipina. I grew up there,

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Speaker 1: went to a Catholic all girls' school for the first

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Speaker 1: seventeen years of my life.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so Catholic, right, So I'm very conservative in a

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Speaker 2: conservative country.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Fun fact. You know, the Philippines is one of

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Speaker 1: two remaining countries in the world where divorce is ill

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Speaker 1: ego and the other one is Vatican City. Not a

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Speaker 1: lot of people getting married there, I can. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: population eight hundred and sixty years as well, so Maine mostly. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So growing up in the Philippines, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: extremely conservative, extremely extremely religious, and extremely Catholic. And all

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Speaker 1: of the messages that I grew up with around you know,

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Speaker 1: love and commitment and intimacy, relationships and sex were extremely

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Speaker 1: loaded with shame, you know, in secrecy and this kind

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Speaker 1: of I mean there was so there's so much to

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Speaker 1: unpack from being raised as a Catholic school girl, you know,

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Speaker 1: being told that sex was bad. If you liked it,

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Speaker 1: we're curious about it, you were also bad. But then

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Speaker 1: somehow men receiving a totally different message from what I

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Speaker 1: was growing up with. So yeah, that's how I grew up.

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Speaker 2: But yet you did always know from when you were

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Speaker 2: how old that you had. Obviously there was the degree

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Speaker 2: of innocence bestowed and preserved on the behalf of children,

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Speaker 2: as it should be, but even then you had the

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Speaker 2: inkling of what a curiosity about it?

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Speaker 3: About sex?

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Speaker 1: It wasn't about sex per se. It was about how

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Speaker 1: people approached relationships and love. So in the Philippines, you know,

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Speaker 1: when I was growing up, I don't know how much

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Speaker 1: it's changed. I left about sixteen or seventeen years ago.

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Speaker 1: There was no dating. We didn't date like there was

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Speaker 1: a very formalized kind of form of courtship where you know,

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Speaker 1: a boy or like a man would put his best

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Speaker 1: foot forward and be really clear about I am now

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Speaker 1: courting you, and you are wife's material and the woman's

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Speaker 1: you know, the girl's job was to keep him at

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Speaker 1: arm's length, and so's there. It was this kind kind

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Speaker 1: of elaborate game where the woman's virtue was always you know,

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Speaker 1: you were somehow a better woman if you managed to

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Speaker 1: put him off or you know, find ways around keeping him, yeah,

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Speaker 1: at arm's length. And I would just wonder, but what

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Speaker 1: about love? Like, where is the love in all of this?

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Speaker 1: If you feel something for somebody, what is this elaborate

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Speaker 1: game about? And this kind of extended into marriage where

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Speaker 1: you were supposed to be married for life, and you know,

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Speaker 1: loyalty and fidelity was promised to each other, but secretly,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was an open secret that men had

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Speaker 1: affairs and the woman was supposed to put up with it.

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Speaker 3: In fact, in your family that was the case.

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Speaker 2: Was it not that your mom, who was Philippina, had

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Speaker 2: married your dad, who was the Indian half of the equation, right,

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Speaker 2: and he had numerous.

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Speaker 1: Afays well he it wasn't the case that she was

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Speaker 1: expected to put up with it. I think they both

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Speaker 1: went into it, you know, they were married. I think

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Speaker 1: in their early twenties. They both went into marriage thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is a team effort. We're doing this

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Speaker 1: as a team. And I think he kind of fell

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Speaker 1: into the trap of, oh, this is kind of expected

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Speaker 1: of me, you know, I'm successful, I'm young. Is this

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Speaker 1: something I you know, there are different expectations for men

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Speaker 1: than for women. But then kind of the twist with

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Speaker 1: their marriage was he was like, oh, well, this is

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Speaker 1: not what it's cut out to be. You know, I

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Speaker 1: need to get out of this situation. Whoever, I got

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Speaker 1: on my side, and it was my mom. So with them,

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Speaker 1: there were no secrets in a way, which was very

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Speaker 1: unusual for a couple of their time, like in the seventies,

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Speaker 1: I think like late seventies, early eighties, coming from both

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Speaker 1: their cultures, but they had this understanding that we're in

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Speaker 1: you know, we're in a team, We're in this together.

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Speaker 1: It was never really a thing that caused my mom

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Speaker 1: a lot of grief or anger. She was like, no,

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Speaker 1: you know it out, then I would get him out.

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Speaker 1: If you couldn't do it himself, then I would get

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Speaker 1: him out of it.

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Speaker 2: So as a child there was you and your sister.

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Speaker 2: Were you aware of these tensions within your parents' marriage.

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Speaker 1: No, because my father died when I was three, so

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Speaker 1: that wasn't really something that I grew up being aware of.

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Speaker 1: But my mom would tell me stories as I was

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Speaker 1: growing up, and I suppose when I started hearing about

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Speaker 1: these things when I was maybe you know, in my

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Speaker 1: early teens, and she was very open with me about them.

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Speaker 1: But what radiated the most from her stories was the

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Speaker 1: sense of her and my dad, you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: playing by rules that she knew were different from everyone

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Speaker 1: else's doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is my cue society. You the apple doesn't

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Speaker 2: fall far from the trade.

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Speaker 1: No, I think not. I think our relationship, you know,

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Speaker 1: our view towards relationships and love and intimacy is so

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Speaker 1: shaped by what we grew up with, right, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: by our context, which.

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Speaker 2: Is so interesting because your husband, the man you love

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Speaker 2: or one of the men you love, was also from

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Speaker 2: the Philippines. You met at Uni. So he was your

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Speaker 2: first boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: He was my second. I had a high school sweetheart,

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Speaker 1: our second.

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Speaker 2: But he was very much a product of his upbringing,

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Speaker 2: which was that marriage is a sacred.

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Speaker 3: Union and you you.

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Speaker 2: Know, forswear any others. He was very conservative in his approach.

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Speaker 2: And so were you initially or did you always have

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Speaker 2: that fluttering of the bird against the cage?

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Speaker 1: I think what I always had, kid was a curiosity

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Speaker 1: at why. You know, my parents clearly loved each other,

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Speaker 1: and our family was a very tight knit, close loving one,

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Speaker 1: and I always had this curiosity about why it seemed

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Speaker 1: that within their marriage the rules of love could be

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Speaker 1: different than what I saw outside in the world, you know,

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Speaker 1: as I grew up, became a teenager, started you know,

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Speaker 1: hanging out with my friends and their families and their parents.

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Speaker 1: It just seeing how marriage was in the conservative Catholic

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Speaker 1: society that I grew up in, and I saw that disconnect,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, Okay, there must be another way. You know,

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Speaker 1: are there other people, you know, playing by different rules?

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Speaker 1: What does it mean to actually negotiate love in marriage

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Speaker 1: and commitment, you know, on terms that not everyone may understand.

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Speaker 1: So with my husband, he grew up in a really,

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Speaker 1: really conservative and you know, very strictly Catholic family.

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Speaker 2: If I was going to embark on a sexually liberated journey,

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Speaker 2: there's no better city in the world to do that

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Speaker 2: in than Amsterdam, which is where you and Marcus moved to.

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Speaker 2: And initially I gather from your book that you were

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Speaker 2: kind of driver of that. Not that I'm saying once

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Speaker 2: again it wasn't an overt motivation, but do you think

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Speaker 2: that there was a hunger for new experiences because this

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Speaker 2: was before you had started to really explore things sexually.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean I've always been a really curious person

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Speaker 1: and I probably of the two of us, the more

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Speaker 1: adventurous one. So there was definitely a hunger for new experiences,

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Speaker 1: and travel was usually appealing. It was at the time

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Speaker 1: when I don't know if you remember this kind of

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Speaker 1: in the early you know, in the early odds where

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Speaker 1: travel blogging was exploding. You know, you were seeing people

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Speaker 1: going on around the world trips funded by these elaborate

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Speaker 1: credit card point systems. Yeah, and I was I was

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Speaker 1: just a bit like, okay, well, how do we get

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Speaker 1: some of this action? So, yeah, there's always I've always

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Speaker 1: been somebody who's had a lot of stuff going on,

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Speaker 1: always wants new stuff going on. And I have a real,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of adventurous spirit in that way.

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Speaker 2: Which has been both in certain aspects of blessing and

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Speaker 2: a curse to your husband who's ended up living a

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Speaker 2: life that he never would have imagined for himself. And

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Speaker 2: some points was really reluctant to follow your laid on things.

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Speaker 2: When did your sexual exploration start? That was with the

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Speaker 2: craigs listings.

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Speaker 1: Right, did you ever have Craigslist in Australia.

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Speaker 2: Was this a thing, No, it's an American thing, but

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Speaker 2: we're very familiar with all things American in Australia as.

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Speaker 1: We are here. Yes. So when I was moving, when

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Speaker 1: we were moving from Singapore to Amsterdam, I was selling

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Speaker 1: furniture on Craigslist, and you know, I was randomly clicking

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Speaker 1: around the site and I kind of fell into this

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Speaker 1: Internet rabbit hole, which was a Craigslist personal ad, and

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Speaker 1: coming out of this, you know, very conservative culture where

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Speaker 1: nobody talked about sex, suddenly seeing all of these different

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Speaker 1: desires that people had. I mean it was quite a chronuclopia.

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Speaker 1: You know, people were looking for threesomes, stockings, and I

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Speaker 1: was a bit like, what is going on here? What

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Speaker 1: are these things and why do people find them so exciting?

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of ninety percent of this, So for me,

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Speaker 1: the Craigslist personals were kind of like a self refreshing

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Speaker 1: romance novel, you know how people pick up romance novels

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Speaker 1: and kind of you let your brain explore and whether

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Speaker 1: it's with you know, swashbucking pirates or vampire were wolves.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there is like this kind of erotic fantasy element,

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Speaker 1: and to me, I found that online, so I would

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Speaker 1: read and just be curious about you know, I would

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Speaker 1: go out into the street and think, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: do all these people want these things? And are you know,

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Speaker 1: are just not talking about them? And they exist on

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Speaker 1: some corner of the Internet that I've somehow stumbled into.

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Speaker 1: So we moved to holland sold the furniture successfully. I'm

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Speaker 1: craigelists moved to Amsterdam, and when I got there, I,

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Speaker 1: you know, I would continue to look and Amsterdam was

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Speaker 1: even more sizzling in terms of what it was offering online.

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Speaker 1: And I was just honestly mind blown at the kind

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Speaker 1: of variety, of an openness also with which people share

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Speaker 1: these desires. And then at some point, you know, I

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Speaker 1: brought this up with my husband. I was like, Okay, look,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're here, we're young, we're reasonably hot. We

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Speaker 1: should go and try these things while we still got it.

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Speaker 1: And his response, of course, coming from where he was

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Speaker 1: coming from, with his family context and you know how

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Speaker 1: he'd been raising, He's like, decent people don't do this,

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Speaker 1: Decent married people don't do this, and definitely, you, as

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Speaker 1: a decent married woman, should not even be thinking about this.

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Speaker 1: So we ran into our first conflict where my desire

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Speaker 1: for adventure in terms of sexual exploration and variety ran

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Speaker 1: into his kind of need for stability and security, and

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Speaker 1: just you know, for him, this was just no.

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Speaker 2: This is interesting because this was at the point at

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Speaker 2: which you started to explore things covertly, mainly through emails

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Speaker 2: or whatever at the start, and then you had some

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Speaker 2: physical encounters. But it's unusual for you because one of

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Speaker 2: the disarming things about the book is how open you

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Speaker 2: are and that you really are very much committed to

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Speaker 2: the pursuit of honesty in your relationship with Marcus, and

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Speaker 2: in this instance you weren't and it ended up being disastrous,

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Speaker 2: did it not?

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Speaker 3: Or could have been?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting that you picked up on that

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Speaker 1: kit because having come from a situation where the rejection

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Speaker 1: and shame I felt around my husband's reaction to my

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Speaker 1: desires and like this very kind of real, sincere kind

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Speaker 1: of desire to explore these things with him, that shame

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Speaker 1: and rejection drove me to hide and keep secrets. And

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Speaker 1: if there's anything that drives people to keep secrets, it's shame.

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Speaker 1: So my commitment to being honest in the book is

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Speaker 1: because I've been on the flip side where shame made

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Speaker 1: me feel like I had to hide something, and the

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Speaker 1: difference between that person who was hiding something about herself

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Speaker 1: and the person now who is open about being you know,

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Speaker 1: having made mistakes and stands by those mistakes as part

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Speaker 1: of my journey is night and day. And having experienced

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Speaker 1: what it's like to live openly and honestly about myself

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Speaker 1: screw ups and all, just makes me think I would

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Speaker 1: never go back there, like I would never live as

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Speaker 1: this woman who was hiding things about herself that were

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Speaker 1: not necessarily bad.

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Speaker 2: What do you think was your driver at the time?

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Speaker 3: What were you wanting?

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Speaker 2: Was it the affirmation of being desired by somebody else?

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Speaker 2: Was it a feeling of wanting a foreign touch? What

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Speaker 2: was it that you wanted? I, at that point didn't understand,

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Speaker 2: much like your husband Marcus didn't understand what you wanted.

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Speaker 1: I wanted a variety of experiences and to understand why

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Speaker 1: people find some things exciting and hot. You know, why

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Speaker 1: do people find threesomes hot? Why do people find being

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Speaker 1: submissive exciting? Why do some people find dominating? You know,

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Speaker 1: men thrilling and powerful, and so of all of the

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Speaker 1: sexual experiences, you know, we can have in the world.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to try them and see, Okay, but what

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Speaker 1: is this really like? What is exciting about this? Is this?

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Speaker 1: For me? Is this part of something that I could

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Speaker 1: consider my sexuality, which I've never had this space to explore.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't really about particular people or being desired.

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Speaker 1: It was the variety of experiences that are out there.

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Speaker 2: After this short break, Deeper reveals how a sexual encounter

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Speaker 2: with a man she met on Craig's List changed the

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Speaker 2: way she felt about her postpartum body. One of your

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Speaker 2: first encounters. I found this amazing because you just had

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Speaker 2: your daughter, right and the may I've had four children,

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Speaker 2: and postpartum is not a period in your life if

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Speaker 2: you're very sexy.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 2: But you went out and had this amazing encounter with

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Speaker 2: a man who was well.

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Speaker 3: You also signed the book.

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Speaker 2: It's very easy for a woman to find men, easier

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Speaker 2: than it is for men to find women. But you

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Speaker 2: found a man who was so mad for you that

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Speaker 2: it made you rethink yourself in terms of your own desirability.

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Speaker 1: What was really, you know, mind blowing for me with

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Speaker 1: this encounter that we referenced in the book. It this

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Speaker 1: with a man named Thomas that I met in Berlin.

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Speaker 1: My husband was on a business trip and I joined

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Speaker 1: him and I had the one night off, you know,

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Speaker 1: babysitter was found and I kind of had this one

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Speaker 1: night and I went back to Craigslist and I saw

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Speaker 1: this headline that said very handsome man looking for a

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Speaker 1: woman with a big belly. I mean postparton, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: I still had this exactly. I said, well, I don't

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Speaker 1: have much going on right now, but I certainly have this.

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Speaker 1: And I again that curiosity of why would anyone find

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Speaker 1: this sexy? What is you know, what is it about

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Speaker 1: this that someone would find hot? When I've been told

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Speaker 1: my whole life that my big belly is something that

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Speaker 1: I have to hide, you know, I have to starve myself,

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Speaker 1: go to the gym and be super skinny, which you

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Speaker 1: know I was never and will never be. What about

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Speaker 1: this is attractive? So I went to meet him out

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Speaker 1: of curiosity, and the way that he responded to you know,

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Speaker 1: the fact of me is showing up and my body

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Speaker 1: was really changed the way I saw myself. You know,

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Speaker 1: there was a very strict standard of beauty in the Philippines,

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Speaker 1: where it's like skinny peteeth, you know, long straight black hair,

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Speaker 1: very sweet, you know, doesn't really laugh loudly or eat

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Speaker 1: too much, not just.

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Speaker 3: In the Philippines.

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Speaker 1: On I thought maybe we have just the long black hair.

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Speaker 1: You know. It was real, dly, skinny and petite was

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Speaker 1: the thing. And having never been this kind of woman,

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Speaker 1: I suddenly realized, oh wait, you know, there is something

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Speaker 1: about me, that about this body that I've been taught

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Speaker 1: to hate all my life, that is actually beautiful and

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Speaker 1: attractive and desirable and sexy. I mean, sexy was a

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Speaker 1: word that I'd never used to apply to myself. But

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Speaker 1: here I was a new mother suddenly realizing that this

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Speaker 1: word could apply to me as well. And it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just the domain of skinny, perfect, petique women. And that opened,

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Speaker 1: you know, so many doors like Pandora's box, Pandora's box,

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Speaker 1: but also just this confidence that I'd never been able

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Speaker 1: to access, you know, growing up.

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Speaker 2: Where were you at this point with Marcus so when

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Speaker 2: you had the night off in when you were in Berlin,

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Speaker 2: where were you at at that point in regards to

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Speaker 2: the conversation about opening up.

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Speaker 1: We completely pausitive since I became pregnant and in a

355
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Speaker 1: way I felt like it was something I was doing,

356
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Speaker 1: you know, exploring covertly through emails and reading Craig's list.

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Speaker 1: I felt like it was something I was doing to

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Speaker 1: keep the peace at the same time. You know, a

359
00:22:14,879 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 1: lot of things can exist at the same time. Right,

360
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Speaker 1: this was going on, but also, I mean, the pregnancy

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Speaker 1: was a magical experience for me. Yeah, it brought us

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Speaker 1: closer in so many ways. I mean, you've gone through

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Speaker 1: this with your loved one, and just that little world

364
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Speaker 1: of especially when our daughter was born, just this wonder

365
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Speaker 1: and this joy what's there? Like it was present, but

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Speaker 1: then there was also this kind of other thing in

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Speaker 1: the background that kept nagging at me. Yeah. So it

368
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Speaker 1: was a very complicated time, as new motherhood is, but

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Speaker 1: we were I mean I was also discovering what he

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Speaker 1: was like as a father, which was amazing, like a revelation.

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Speaker 1: So I knew that even if I had this, you know,

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Speaker 1: the conflict for me at the time was, this is

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Speaker 1: the man I love and I want to be with

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Speaker 1: for the rest of my life, and now we have

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Speaker 1: this beautiful family. What am I going to do about

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Speaker 1: you know, this other thing which is me wanting to explore,

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Speaker 1: which is now growing stronger the more I try to

378
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Speaker 1: suppress it. Okay, what am I going to do about that?

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Speaker 3: What did you do?

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Speaker 1: Nothing? It's like the easiest thing to do, right, Like,

381
00:23:22,919 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: let you know, do nothing until you can think of something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So Marcus found out and was absolutely devastated.

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Speaker 1: Rage I think was the you know, yeah, rage.

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Speaker 2: That was when you had your five that got temporarily physical.

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Speaker 3: Is that then?

387
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Speaker 1: Well, you know, when he found out about my having

388
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Speaker 1: met Thomas from Berlin, he was absolutely furious and like

389
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Speaker 1: you said, devastated and shocked, and he was so you know,

390
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Speaker 1: Marcus is the gentlest, sort of most caring man I've

391
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Speaker 1: ever known, and for a moment he was just so

392
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Speaker 1: outraged and just so hurt. You know, I thought he

393
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,400
Speaker 1: reached out me. I thought he was going to shake

394
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Speaker 1: me or something. He landed, you know, a punch in

395
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Speaker 1: the stomach, and then immediately he was at the look

396
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Speaker 1: of horror on his face, like horror at himself. And

397
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Speaker 1: then at the time, you know, I thought, oh my god,

398
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Speaker 1: this is my fault. But looking back now, I think,

399
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: you know, this was something that should have been addressed.

400
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Speaker 1: But we were yeah, I don't know, we were young,

401
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: new parents and we didn't have the tools to address.

402
00:24:34,679 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 3: This, so then you went to therapy together.

403
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. What he asked for at the time was, you know,

404
00:24:40,639 --> 00:24:43,719
Speaker 1: to have a look at my why I was doing this,

405
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: why I had been you know, kind of covidly exploring,

406
00:24:47,679 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: and what were the reasons driving my sort of this

407
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 1: pattern of you know, keeping things secret and then now

408
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: having met somebody. And it was interesting because I didn't

409
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Speaker 1: choose therapy. Yes, he said, you know, do the work,

410
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Speaker 1: find something. And I went to a bunch of therapists,

411
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Speaker 1: you know, had my like kind of meetings and consultations

412
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Speaker 1: with them. But what I found most interesting actually was

413
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: a communications coach who did something called non violent communication.

414
00:25:17,399 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: She wasn't a therapist. She was someone who was going

415
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: to teach us to identify and express our needs, to

416
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: listen to each other without judgment, and to find a

417
00:25:28,879 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: way to compromise, you know, to reach a compromise where

418
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 1: both sets of our needs would be honored.

419
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Speaker 3: Wow.

420
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: And I was just thinking about this and yeah.

421
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 2: That Sam at that point impossible.

422
00:25:42,679 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: It seemed impossible. But I was really again this curiosity

423
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: of Okay, well this sounds amazing, How is this going

424
00:25:50,159 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: to happen? What really drew me to This approach of

425
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: non violent communication was like it was very non judgmental.

426
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Speaker 1: You know. I wasn't somebody to be fixed or cured.

427
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 1: There was no perpetrate or victim. We were seen as equals,

428
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: Marcus and I, my husband and I. We were seen

429
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: as equals with equal you know, and both of our

430
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: needs were valid and should be honored in some creative way.

431
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: And so when we reached the point of you know,

432
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Speaker 1: it took practice. I mean, there was a lot of

433
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,999
Speaker 1: anger on Marcus's side, a lot of guilt and shame

434
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Speaker 1: on my side. And these are kind of filters that

435
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: help you from you know, that stop you from listening

436
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: to each other. It was a lot of work to

437
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: kind of clear away those filters and learn to listen

438
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: to each other. And what was surprising, I think for

439
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: my husband was realizing that the way he'd reacted to

440
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 1: me bringing up my you know, my desire for sexual

441
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: variety and exploration was part of the reason that I

442
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: felt the shame that drove me underground. It's a very

443
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: very unusual and I think big thing to take responsibility

444
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: in a situation where you understand you are the victim.

445
00:27:11,879 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: And for me, it was a very big step to

446
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: look at those needs for variety and adventure and exploration

447
00:27:20,159 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: and discovery, to look at them and see, these are

448
00:27:23,639 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: not wrong, These are not bad, and I'm not wrong

449
00:27:26,639 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: or bad for having them.

450
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: And so then as a result of that, you found

451
00:27:30,879 --> 00:27:37,519
Speaker 2: a way in which you could proceed kind of renewing

452
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: your commitment to each other, embarking on a new way

453
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: of being together really which allowed you your freedom. Yeap,

454
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 2: how did that work?

455
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: You mean, how did it work in the beginning or

456
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: when we first set up?

457
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, because the whole thing is an evolution. Some

458
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: might say a gateway, a gateway because at every point,

459
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 2: you know, one of the things in ask me how

460
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 2: it were, one of the questions is or the things

461
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 2: that people would always say to you, is what happens

462
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: if you fall in love with someone? And we're going

463
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 2: to get to that, but at this point, you're just

464
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 2: you and Marcus reach a negotiation where you put some

465
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 2: boundaries in place, and what does it mean for you?

466
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 3: How does your weight law?

467
00:28:23,879 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: Lots of questions there. So let's start with, you know,

468
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: us embarking on this, and the idea was to explore together,

469
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: you know, So there were things I wanted to try

470
00:28:35,679 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: like you know, going to swingers clubs or going to

471
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: parties or you know, having threesomes. And as parents of

472
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: you know, quite a young child, you know, Marcus said,

473
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: if you want to explore this, well, you know, I'm

474
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,759
Speaker 1: all in with you. Let's do this together. But you know,

475
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: we're the parents of a young child. We can't really

476
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: go cruising swingers parties or you know, bars or whatever.

477
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,039
Speaker 1: So we set up in their accounts, which seemed kind

478
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: of safe in the beginning because we didn't disclose anything

479
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 1: to our friends. We were just okay, we're going to

480
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: try this out and if this doesn't work, can close

481
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: it up again. The boundaries we set around this exploration

482
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: were what helped make it feel safe in the beginning.

483
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: It wasn't like a free for all do everything you want,

484
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: you know, all the bets are off. You know. We

485
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: set agreements in place that helped us feel like we

486
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: were going into this you know, uncharted territory, like slowly,

487
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: bit by bit. So the first rule, and you know,

488
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,479
Speaker 1: the arn't clad rule that we still have today is

489
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: save sex, which means barriers you know, with other partners

490
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: and regular STI testing. At the time, We also agreed,

491
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: you know, we agreed on like a certain frequency of dates,

492
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: which was like maximum of once a week. We agreed

493
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: that we wouldn't sleep over with anybody because that just

494
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,759
Speaker 1: felt too intimate to share with anyone at the time. Right,

495
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: No friends, I mean it gets messy. No co workers

496
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,719
Speaker 1: as well. I mean, you know, were you eat? So

497
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: these were the agreements that we set out for ourselves

498
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: in the beginning. And that was ten years ago, kid,

499
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: I mean we you know, we've experienced the light since then,

500
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: and yeah.

501
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,479
Speaker 2: But deeper, even just to get to that point, to

502
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 2: sit down with your husband and navigate those boundaries is

503
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 2: unimaginable in many ways.

504
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: And why do you think so well just to.

505
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: Just to have to address the mechanics which you needed

506
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 2: to be able to, you know, embark on this life together.

507
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: But for me, that's unimaginable to have a conversation with

508
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: my husband. Go, Okay, I promise I'll always use condoms

509
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,519
Speaker 2: and I'll be safe and I'll be home before our

510
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 2: daughter wakes up.

511
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean? Like it's really.

512
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 2: Going into the part of a map of human relations.

513
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: In the olden days, you know how salahs would have

514
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,479
Speaker 2: on a map. They be monsters for the part of

515
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: the map whe they didn't know what happened. Yeah, that's

516
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 2: you're really sailing off into the part they be monsters,

517
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: but you're doing it with like such kind of faith.

518
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 3: In each other.

519
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: I think we had that in the beginning, even though

520
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,239
Speaker 1: it was you know, the trust was definitely shaken. But

521
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: up toil that point, I think we'd been married seven years.

522
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: You know, we we there were a lot of things

523
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: at stake. We had our we just had our daughters,

524
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: We had a young we had a young family to protect,

525
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: you know. Going back to your map analogy, I find

526
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: it really interesting because when you set sail right, you're

527
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: on this vessel. You're the captain of your ship. You

528
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: you know what's important about your ship. You know what's

529
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: valuable and what you want to protect. You want to

530
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,479
Speaker 1: protect the crew, you want to protect I don't know

531
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: your cargo. So what do you have to do to

532
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: protect the most important parts of your ship? And I

533
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: think that's where the basis of these discussions are. It's

534
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: not arbitrarily pointed like oh, you know you have to

535
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: be home by seven, you know, seven am or twelve

536
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: midnight or whatever. What is it we want to protect

537
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: about our marriage, our health, our sexual health obviously, you know,

538
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: our intimacy with each other. What are the parts that

539
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: are really special? Oh, I really love waking up next

540
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: to you. I don't want to share it. I'm not

541
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: ready to share that with anybody else. So it is

542
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: really starting from you have things that you love about

543
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: your marriage gate and we, you know, giving each other

544
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: the freedom to explore with other people. We were also

545
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: allowed to say, you know what, this is really special

546
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: to me. I want to protect this. I'm not comfortable

547
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 1: sharing this with anybody else. That's a boundary and being

548
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: allowed to express that with each other helped us set

549
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: the agreement in the beginning, and I saw, Okay, you

550
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: know this is really important to my husband. He understood that, oh,

551
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: this is really important to my wife. Okay, we're going

552
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: to agree on something. I mean, there's so much you

553
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: can do and explore and experience around these boundaries. So

554
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: honoring each other's feelings and what we weren't comfortable with

555
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: or didn't feel safe at the time, you know, it

556
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: was just kind of a no brainer. But it does

557
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: start from understanding the places, you know, the things about

558
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: your marriage that's special.

559
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: Even if you don't know where the voyage is going

560
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: to take you, and no one knows where the voyage

561
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 2: is taking them, by the way, But at this point

562
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: it was all it seems like it's great for you.

563
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: So you're going out, you settle into kind of a

564
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 2: rhythm with Marcus. I say, it's great for you because

565
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: you're so in demand and you're going clubbing and you're

566
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: mating people and you, you know, just having a great time. Marcus,

567
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: he's a little bit more slow off than.

568
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: Mar Yeah, he's always then he likes to see He's

569
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: like he's like a big rock. You know, it takes

570
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: a lot of momentum for him to start moving. But

571
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: once it's moving, it's really moving. So yeah, right, people

572
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: just have you know, I think people just have different

573
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: paces when it comes to things, right, you know, you

574
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: have four children, and not everybody is going to hit

575
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: their kind of milestones at the same age or at

576
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: the same pace. It's true, it was important for us

577
00:34:35,279 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: to understand that about each other, that he would take

578
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: to something in a different way.

579
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: Coming Up Deeper reflects on how her experience finding partners

580
00:34:45,799 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: differed from her husband's and the emotional impact that had

581
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: on him. One of your superpowers that you discovered was

582
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 2: that you are a hot property in Amsterdam where.

583
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 3: The women are tall, the tallest people in the world, the.

584
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 2: Dutch, absolutely, and there you were a petite Philippaina dark

585
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 2: with the belly that had been so adored, and in

586
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 2: fact that was you became a really hot commodity. Whereas

587
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: Marcus explained to you at one point, it's not the

588
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: same for him being a Filippino man, so his relationships

589
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: developed kind of slowly compared to yours.

590
00:35:31,799 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: What was really surprising to me at the time. You know,

591
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: I have a friend who was teasing at this kind

592
00:35:38,759 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: of early phase. She said, oh, you're like a fetish jackpot.

593
00:35:42,759 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 1: And I said, what do you mean? And she said, look,

594
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: you're you know, your short, you're curvy, you've got a bomb,

595
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: you're dark haired, and you know in a land of blonde,

596
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 1: you're somebody's wife, you're a mother. I mean, for some men,

597
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: this is really a thing. She was just like, yeah,

598
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 1: you're like a you know, a tick box of all

599
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: the fetish as men could possibly have. And I was like,

600
00:36:05,759 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, no, I didn't expect this. And for Marcus,

601
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: he was talking about this kind of you know, packing

602
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: order where it's like, you know, for sexual kind of

603
00:36:16,759 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: interest or like flings or whatever, there is a certain

604
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 1: packing order, and Asian men are at the bottom. We were,

605
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, having grown up in a culture where it

606
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 1: was only all of us Asians, you know, kind of

607
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 1: in the dating pool. This was something that we didn't

608
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: expect and it did create an imbalance in the beginning.

609
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 3: In the beginning, yeah.

610
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 2: Yes, but they knew you had a moment which I

611
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 2: found really interesting, where they knew you had to confront

612
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 2: your own when things started to fire for Marcus. And

613
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 2: you know when he came when he goes on his

614
00:36:53,759 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 2: first date and comes home and you can tell that

615
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 2: something's different about him.

616
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think his first day shook his world then

617
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: took my world as well. You know, he'd made his

618
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 1: first Tinder match. It was someone from the neighborhood, and

619
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: when he came home, he just had this kind of

620
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: look on his face where he was clearly trying to

621
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: process things, and he just said, I get it now,

622
00:37:23,279 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: like I've had fun with someone else, but it doesn't

623
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: change the way I feel about you. And at the

624
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: end of the day, you know, I still want to

625
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: come home to you and be your man. It doesn't

626
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: change the way I see you or I feel about you.

627
00:37:40,799 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: And he said, Okay, I kind of get it now.

628
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,919
Speaker 1: And for me, it was kind of confronting. Why don't

629
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: I feel jealous about this? Like? Am I jealous? You know?

630
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: I'm actually excited for him to go out and have

631
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: this really fun experience and see what that does for him.

632
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: And I remember thinking to myself, if I am not jealous,

633
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: does this mean I don't love him? Because we're so oh,

634
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: you know, we're so thought. I mean, we really thought

635
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: that jealousy is adherent component of love. The more jealous

636
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: we are, it means the greater we love somebody. And

637
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: I was discovering that this wasn't true. And I know

638
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 1: a new Marcus had grown up with the same you know,

639
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: ideas of shame around his body and sexuality that I'd

640
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: grown up with in the Philippines, and I wanted this

641
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: to start, you know, I wanted him to be kind

642
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 1: of free from those things and to enjoy his body

643
00:38:40,799 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: and to discover things about himself that I didn't necessarily

644
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: have to be responsible for.

645
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: You also, one of the things that you had in

646
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 2: place one of the understandings between you was that you

647
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 2: would not give each other graphic descriptions of the sexual

648
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: acts you performed with whoever.

649
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 3: You'd had your diets with.

650
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 2: That's right, So there was an element of I don't

651
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 2: know that jealousy is just about anyway.

652
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 3: I don't know.

653
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 2: I asked myself so many questions reading a book. It's

654
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 2: very interesting, okay, But to me, I've found it quite

655
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: illuminating that you had to put that process in place,

656
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 2: because there's a natural understanding that some things need to

657
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 2: remain private if they don't include you.

658
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: Someone recently, you told me this really interesting distinction between

659
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: transparency and honesty. And transparency is all the details unfiltered,

660
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 1: and honesty is when you've processed your experience and you've

661
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,959
Speaker 1: taken the insight from it, and then you share that

662
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: with somebody when they're ready to hear it. I think honesty,

663
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: you know, I wrote this in the book, Honesty doesn't

664
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: need to be brutal, right. I think honesty can always

665
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: be kind and respect. You know, if Marcus wasn't comfortable

666
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: hearing about graphic details, then that was something I needed

667
00:40:10,759 --> 00:40:11,280
Speaker 1: to respect.

668
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: And then you had a taste of your own medicine

669
00:40:14,759 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: though in that regard, which I must say, I must

670
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 2: say in the book, just because he's proven himself to

671
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: be such a beautiful husband and partner to you as

672
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,439
Speaker 2: you are to him. But you really have led him

673
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: on this life.

674
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 3: He couldn't, I think, even have imagined for himself.

675
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: And then at one point when he comes home and

676
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: he's had an unexpected foursome and he utters this phrase

677
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 2: to you where he's trying to describe you go and

678
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: you're debriefing in the you know, he's in the shower

679
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,439
Speaker 2: or you're in the shower. You're talking to each other

680
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: about what happened, and he's so full of it. At

681
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: the time it was very fresh, and he utters the phrase, yes,

682
00:40:57,279 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: it was too fresh.

683
00:40:58,920 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 3: I've discovered this.

684
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: It can't be too fresh where he says he describes

685
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 2: the woman that one of the women that he was with,

686
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 2: and he said she was pure feminine sexual energy and daper.

687
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: You lost there, who had.

688
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: Been a pioneer in this. Yeah, you lost it, You

689
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 2: lost it.

690
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 1: I mean, human feelings are messy, you know. I think that, Yeah,

691
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: that was one of the times when we didn't have this,

692
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the sort of agreements that we

693
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: had just flew out the window and he was fresh,

694
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 1: he had just walked in, and all of this was

695
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: still kind of like, you know, he was still buzzing

696
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: from it. And it was at this time when I

697
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: was like, oh, you know, we had this. We set

698
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 1: out with this idea to kind of process experiences before

699
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: we share them with each other. And there's a reason

700
00:41:48,759 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: for that. Yes, yeah, I think it was also I

701
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: mean there's also context, right, I'm trying to remember, you know,

702
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,479
Speaker 1: what was I doing at the time was probably yeah,

703
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: probably with our daughter. I was in a very different

704
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: space or something. It was very unexpected. There is something

705
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: to be said for Okay, you know, I'm not ready

706
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: to hear this right now. Can we talk about this,

707
00:42:09,279 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 1: you know, this evening after you know, after bed time

708
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 1: or with a glass of wine. Yeah, I don't need

709
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 1: to hear about this now. And I think it's really

710
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 1: okay to say these things. This is not the right time.

711
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: I think one of us should have gone, oh wait,

712
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: this is not the right time, you know, to process

713
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: all of this stuff.

714
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: I'm struck by when I'm reading your book. I have

715
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 2: the same questions that everyone has. How does it work?

716
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 2: So jealousy being one of them. Yeah, another one being

717
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 2: your daughter.

718
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:36,879
Speaker 1: Right.

719
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 3: So obviously you kept you keep.

720
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: Your home as a as your sacred space for the family.

721
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: Right.

722
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 2: But it must have always been a subject of discussion

723
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 2: of when you were going to broach with your daughter

724
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 2: as she got older.

725
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 3: So she's nearly a teenager now.

726
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: Oh, she's twelve. Yeah, she's onto high school next year.

727
00:42:58,840 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

728
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, how you were going to broach the unusual nature

729
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: of your circumstances with her, well, what you thought or

730
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: unusual circumstances.

731
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting that you pointed out, actually, because I

732
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: don't think we ever really discussed you know, there's going

733
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: to be a big review, right there was we were

734
00:43:20,759 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: We were never thinking about when do we you know,

735
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,399
Speaker 1: strike a gong and tell her we're in an open marriage,

736
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 1: because we went into it, so I guess experimentally, there

737
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: was no idea, you know, that this was going to

738
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: last for as long as it has, which is now

739
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: almost ten years. You know, at the in the beginning,

740
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: it was always say, yeah, let's just give it a try,

741
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: you know, let's see how far we we get. And

742
00:43:45,799 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: this was you know, we opened our marriage, I think

743
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: just before she started school, maybe she was around four.

744
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: So everything that happened, you know, kind of in our

745
00:43:55,759 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 1: private lives and our intimate lives happened after her bedtime.

746
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 1: Dates were after she went to bed, one of our

747
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: you know, ourn claud agreements. To these days, we've never

748
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: been partners home, so all of this was kind of

749
00:44:08,759 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 1: not in her daily life or not part of our

750
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: family life as she knew it. And it was only

751
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 1: really during COVID when I started becoming close to the

752
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: man who you know, I know call my boyfriend Hella Robert.

753
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 1: We had a curfew. I don't know if you had.

754
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,519
Speaker 2: Yes, we had curfews in Australia. Australia the ultimate painal Colony. Yes,

755
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: everyone was in prisoned.

756
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I remember reading about the gosh, reading about

757
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: all of the stuff going on there as well. But

758
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: we had a it was you know, the Dutch are

759
00:44:41,279 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: very liberal. They liked their freedom and so the idea

760
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: of a curfew was was unthinkable for us at the time.

761
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: But I think it was like eight pm or something

762
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: from eight pm to four am, and I would you know,

763
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: I was about to leave from my date with Robert,

764
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: and Marcus was like, okay, well you're going to be

765
00:44:58,799 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: back at eight. Then it said that's very enough time

766
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: to sit down to dinner. What are you thinking? And

767
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: so because I stayed over until the curfew was done,

768
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: then I had to be honest with my daughter, say,

769
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: you know, I'm leaving for Robert's house because of the curfew.

770
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to come back until,

771
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: you know, the following morning. And I said, so I'm

772
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: going to sleep there. And in her mind she was

773
00:45:23,279 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: already doing sleepovers with like our neighbor, you know, her

774
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: little neighbor friends at the time, and she said, okay,

775
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: well you're going to have a sleepover. We'll have fun.

776
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: And that was kind of our approach to always build

777
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: on what she understood and what was really part of

778
00:45:37,759 --> 00:45:39,999
Speaker 1: her life, like what was a reality in her life.

779
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: Dates that went on after that time were not a

780
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: part of her life. Sleepovers she understood, you know, she

781
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: had a working knowledge of a sleepover is a fun

782
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: thing you do with a friend. And so I would

783
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:52,919
Speaker 1: come back the next morning and she'd be like, how

784
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 1: was your sleepover? Was it fun? And I'd be like, yes,

785
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: it was fun. But again, you know, like sexual details

786
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: are not for children, Like I don't know how many

787
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: monogamous parents share their sex lives with their children. Yeah,

788
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 1: I certainly, you know, it's the scene. So in a way,

789
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: it was always something that she knew about. So she

790
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: knew about the sleepovers once a week with Robert, which

791
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: began to became a regular kind of feature of my life.

792
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:25,879
Speaker 2: Yes, because he's your boyfriend. Ok, yes, he's your boyfriend. Deeper, Yeah,

793
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: you have a husband and a boyfriend.

794
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: Indeed, yeah, almost six years now.

795
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 2: So you ended up telling your daughter just the concept

796
00:46:35,759 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 2: that explaining the concept that you're in an open marriage,

797
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: which she was not at all phased by because it

798
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 2: turns out there were two kids in her school whose

799
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 2: parents also were in open marriages, and they discussed it

800
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 2: without going into any detail.

801
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: Welcome to Amsterdam.

802
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, but that came about through the writing

803
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 2: of the book, right that she was curious about the

804
00:46:58,279 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: book you were writing. But what I just need to

805
00:47:03,759 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: know how this was he's having a boyfriend and a husband,

806
00:47:08,759 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 2: because also it seems to me like there was a

807
00:47:10,799 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 2: sliding scale of the boundaries that you had. First there

808
00:47:13,759 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 2: were not going to be any sleepovers, or there was

809
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 2: not going to be an emotional entanglement and then you

810
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 2: realize that these encounters you were having that were purely sexual,

811
00:47:23,799 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: we're not nourishing to you. And you fell for this guy, Robert.

812
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 2: All right, So Robert's Irish, very charming, right, Robert doesn't

813
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 2: have any other girlfriends, now, does he only have you?

814
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: Yes?

815
00:47:38,759 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 3: And you have him and you have Marcus.

816
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: That's correct.

817
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 3: How are you not exhausted?

818
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,919
Speaker 1: You know? I've been asked this a million times, and

819
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: I think it's because the men in my life don't

820
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: need any mothering. They're very self sustaining in a way.

821
00:47:58,279 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: Like Robert is really independent, he's super self reliant. He's

822
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,959
Speaker 1: an artist, artists. Yeah, he's a photographer, yes, yes. And

823
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: Marcus he takes equally the share of the mental and

824
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: domestic load. Like I'm not doing all of the domestic

825
00:48:15,759 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: work on both sides in both houses. I have quite

826
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: a degree of autonomy. I you know, in my life,

827
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: it's very clear to the people that I'm closest to

828
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: the red love that there is space for me to

829
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: do my food. You have space to do your thing.

830
00:48:37,759 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: Everyone is space to do their thing. So I don't know.

831
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: I think it's just because I'm not doing mental, emotional,

832
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: domestic labor one hundred percent on both sides, and that

833
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 1: each of those men can pull their weight.

834
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:59,479
Speaker 2: Yes, but you know, when you a committed to someone romanticly,

835
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 2: sexually and spiritually, it's a big It's.

836
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 3: Also nourishing to you.

837
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 2: I get that, but also it's a big expenditure of

838
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 2: your energy and you're doing that with two people and

839
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 2: at the same time inventing a way, a new way

840
00:49:17,279 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: to have relationships.

841
00:49:18,759 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 3: Really And so.

842
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 2: It's Robert and what's in it for him? Aside from

843
00:49:24,799 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: you obviously, but you know what I mean. He's a

844
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 2: guy who wants to have a family and babies and

845
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 2: that's not a possibility with you, as you've said, Yeah.

846
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: That's after people. What's in it for him? You know,

847
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 1: I'm very careful when I write and when I speak,

848
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: not to speak for the men that I'm in a

849
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 1: relationship with. Yes, what's in it for you? When you

850
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: fall in love with someone the experience of being loved,

851
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 1: being seen, being held, being understood. So somehow he must

852
00:49:58,799 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: be getting that and is getting that from me for

853
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: the past six years.

854
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 3: Yes, I know thought, Yes I understand that.

855
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 2: But what I mean is because he has this goal

856
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 2: of what he wants in his life broadly, which is

857
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:17,240
Speaker 2: he wants to have he loves your family with Marcus,

858
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 2: he wants that for himself at some point. And because

859
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 2: that's not an option for you, it's interesting to go

860
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 2: into a relationship or to be a part of a

861
00:50:28,799 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 2: relationship in which you know, at some point the gate's

862
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 2: going to come down. And I know you're not obviously

863
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 2: one for thinking about, you know, for crossing the bridge

864
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 2: before you come to it, but that will be hard

865
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 2: because you're in love with him.

866
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: You love him, I do, I do, and I want

867
00:50:48,279 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 1: him to have what he wants. And again, I think

868
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 1: this goes back to something that you know, I brought

869
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 1: up earlier. Everybody approaches things at a different pace, right,

870
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: like I've always you know, the ending is kind of

871
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: bagd what's kind of into the beginning of this relationship,

872
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: which is very unusual. Yes, you know, some relationships don't

873
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,359
Speaker 1: last forever, some aren't meant to last forever. But it's

874
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: still a beautiful experience that you can share and grow from.

875
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: So you know, I was.

876
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 5: Fully thinking, oh yeah, at the end of you know,

877
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 5: at the end of Lockdown, the dating apps will be

878
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 5: flourishing again and he'll you know, he'll be back to

879
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 5: dating and you know, being his charming, irish self with

880
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 5: bars and chatting up women, and I'm you know, it

881
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 5: just didn't happen, and life can really surprise you that way.

882
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 5: I don't think I'm pushing him out the door, but

883
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 5: I do understand that everybody approaches life at their own pace.

884
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 5: Like if he's not, you know, feeling like this, this

885
00:51:51,279 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 5: relationship is not enough, or he hasn't outgrown it, or

886
00:51:54,920 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 5: I don't know, it's not for me to decide it's. Yeah,

887
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 5: it's something for him to understand and decide when it's

888
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,760
Speaker 5: his time. He's gone out on dates, he's had flings

889
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 5: and you know, but.

890
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 3: How did you feel.

891
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 2: Did you feel any territorialness when he was saying out

892
00:52:15,759 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 2: the page?

893
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was interesting for me because I felt differently

894
00:52:21,279 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: from when I, you know, when when Marcus first started dating,

895
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:26,999
Speaker 1: when when Robert went out with a couple of people.

896
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: I was quite surprised at how not possessive, But somehow

897
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: the jealousy was there because the idea of being replaced

898
00:52:36,279 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: was really real then, like something that I wasn't really

899
00:52:39,759 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 1: you know, that I wasn't really thinking about in my

900
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: relationship with Marcus, it was it's clear to both of

901
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: us that we're not dating to audition replacements. But with Robert,

902
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: the implication is always there that you know, somebody that

903
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: you go on a date with, you could fall in

904
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: love with at any time, and you could decide, you know, okay,

905
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:01,999
Speaker 1: this is this is the person I'm going to start

906
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,760
Speaker 1: a family with, this is my person. And what's really

907
00:53:05,799 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: interesting is that that kind of inherent you know, that

908
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: knowledge that this might be the end. It created this

909
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: kind of insecurity, which I feel is like the root

910
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: of jealousy is not feeling secure. But we talked about it,

911
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: and we talked about his experience, you know, going on

912
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: a daily with one of the few times in someone,

913
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,879
Speaker 1: and we really got to take a look at what

914
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: it meant for me that I felt insecure in the

915
00:53:34,759 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: relationship because he could always you know, he could always

916
00:53:37,799 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 1: leave at any time. And actually, jealousy can point to

917
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: me a need that's not being met, which is at

918
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: the point was to feel more secure in the relationship.

919
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: So one thing about being non monogamous, I guess it

920
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: makes you think, how will this need be fulfilled by

921
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 1: something other than sexual exclusivity, and what it was at

922
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,839
Speaker 1: the time for Robert and me, was him showing me

923
00:54:04,799 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: how much he appreciated our relationship. And what I brought

924
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: into is life like that reassurance of you know, you're

925
00:54:11,759 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: really valuable. And if I did fall in love with someone,

926
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,959
Speaker 1: it wouldn't you know, you wouldn't be someone I could

927
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: discard overnight and we'd work through it. And you know,

928
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: like I've always known it's going to happen.

929
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 2: I know, but knowing knowing something doesn't necessarily soften the

930
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:33,919
Speaker 2: inevitability of it when it will happen, if it should happen, I.

931
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: Agree, But I mean I can do hard things. You know, well, you.

932
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,399
Speaker 3: Can do hard things. You also you also do a

933
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 3: lot of talking.

934
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 2: Like your relationships, there's so much to navigate that. I'm

935
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 2: also struck by the fact that you and Marcus nearly

936
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 2: every issue and obviously because it's the subject of your book,

937
00:54:56,799 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 2: but nearly every issue within your relationship aside from when

938
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 2: you first got together, has arisen because of the open marriage.

939
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:10,720
Speaker 1: That's not entirely true, Kate. I focus on that, Okay.

940
00:55:10,799 --> 00:55:11,760
Speaker 3: I'm happy to hear.

941
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean, we fight about who, you know,

942
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: who stacks the dishwasher, and I mean, this is really

943
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: kind of thanks all married couple stuff, But I do,

944
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: but I do focus on the issues that arose within

945
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: an open marriage because that's the focus of the book. Yes, right,

946
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 1: Like okay, yeah, you're you're not picking up a book

947
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: called ask me how it works love in an open

948
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: marriage to find out how we resolve the issue about the.

949
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 3: Dishwasher housework, right, Okay?

950
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 2: Deeper, So you had these concurrent loves differing but loves.

951
00:55:47,799 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 2: So when you get to say, when I think of

952
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 2: in a relationship in times of good and in times

953
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 2: of bad, that's when you turn to your significant person.

954
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 2: So when you have good news, who do you tell first?

955
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 2: Do you tell Marcus?

956
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,439
Speaker 1: Or do you tell er whoever is in the room

957
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: with me at the moment? Or like it's you know,

958
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 1: if Marcus is over like cooking dinner in the kitchen

959
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: and I receive good news while I'm sitting here at

960
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: the dining table, first child goes to whoever's in the

961
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 1: room with.

962
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:24,359
Speaker 3: Me, right, okay? And is that ever an issue for them?

963
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:25,879
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

964
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 2: Aside from any sexual notions of exclusivity or whatever, you know,

965
00:56:32,799 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 2: that emotional thing that oh, you told Robert before you

966
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:36,839
Speaker 2: told me.

967
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: Or bus never. I mean because that I think, No,

968
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: they're not that kind of there's no possessiveness in that way,

969
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 1: because that would entail quite a level of micro management.

970
00:56:50,799 --> 00:56:55,240
Speaker 1: Would you say, like to know who finds out what first?

971
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,879
Speaker 1: All the time? I mean we've had a lot of yeah, yeah,

972
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: really great news, you know exploding with the book recently,

973
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 1: right if I learned the great interview like this or

974
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,919
Speaker 1: a new piece of you know, publicity comes out or

975
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 1: something really great has happened. I mean, no one's keeping tabs,

976
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 1: no one's keeping an Excel sheet on who hears things first?

977
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 2: Well deep, and we think they're not. But in relationships,

978
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: people are often keeping a ledger that we're unaware of. Okay, yeah,

979
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 2: you spend more time to analyzing your relationships than most

980
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 2: people do, so you'd be I think.

981
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: I know my husband and i'm boys had pretty well

982
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 1: right now.

983
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 2: Also, what space is there in your life for your girlfriends,

984
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:44,919
Speaker 2: who I know play a significant role, How do they

985
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 2: fit into the tapestry of your life both time wise

986
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:56,479
Speaker 2: and emotionally and being aware of your situation which you're

987
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 2: so open about.

988
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: My best friend is going to write about her in

989
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: the book you do. Yeah, we all of almost all

990
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: of my close girlfriends are also moms, and I think

991
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 1: when you you know, when you're a mom, the time

992
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: you can devote to friendships has limitations. So we're on

993
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 1: what's App quite a lot of the time, Like there's

994
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: group chats, there's you know, I think between me and

995
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: my best friend or WhatsApp. History is like another book

996
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: on its own. So we're very in touch with each other,

997
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 1: and then we see each other I don't know about

998
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: maybe once a week or once every other week. There's

999
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: seasons when life is heavy for one of us and

1000
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 1: we know that, you know, someone can't really be present,

1001
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: but we stay in touch. Quite a lot of my

1002
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: friends now as it stands now, are also in you know,

1003
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: non monogamous relationships or have decided to be non monogamous.

1004
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: So it's a very supportive. It's a very very supportive

1005
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 1: and understanding community of girlfriends.

1006
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 2: Was there anyone that was not able to accept your choices?

1007
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 2: Do you think you've lost anyone along the way.

1008
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: No, I don't think that. I have probably my friends

1009
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: from back home in the Philippines, but then I've lived

1010
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: away from home for so long. Yeah, close to sixteen

1011
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 1: years now. Yeah, for so long, so you know you're

1012
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 1: you're also not part of every like wedding, baptist and

1013
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 1: birthday house party that's going on. So that's been kind

1014
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 1: of a natural ebb from my life, you know. But now,

1015
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 1: I mean, when you know news about the book started

1016
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 1: coming out, yeah, they were all very curious about it.

1017
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:39,919
Speaker 1: You know. I now have a group of friends from

1018
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: back home who are all reading the book and they're like, oh,

1019
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:44,919
Speaker 1: book club. You know, when we're all done, it's all,

1020
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 1: you know, get together on Facebook, Messenger or FaceTime or

1021
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: whatever and have a book club and discuss your life

1022
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:53,959
Speaker 1: right now, how you've been Yeah, I don't think I've

1023
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 1: lost anyone along the way. So it kind of the

1024
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:01,920
Speaker 1: support I've received around being open about our open marriage

1025
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 1: has kind of told me like, oh, it's really like

1026
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: the people who really matter to me and who really

1027
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: care for me, and who I really care about, you know,

1028
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 1: are still kind of all around me.

1029
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 3: I am dapa.

1030
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 2: Where do you imagine yourself to pay in titaneous time?

1031
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, fifty three, I hope I'll still be

1032
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: curious about life, wanting to have new experiences. Married to

1033
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:35,439
Speaker 1: Marcus Robert will be in my life in some form

1034
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: or fashion. My daughter will be twenty two and spreading

1035
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 1: her wings in the world. I'm looking forward to a

1036
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: new phase of life in which parenting is not as

1037
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: intensive and there's more There's even more space now too,

1038
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 1: you know them, now to discover what else you know

1039
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: lies ahead, more time with Marcus, with just the two

1040
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 1: of us. Quite optimistic, but I think you got that

1041
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 1: I'm an optimist from reading my book.

1042
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 2: Yes, you're definitely, you're definitely an optimist.

1043
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 3: And you know what, that's a very seductive energy.

1044
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: All right, I'll keep that in mind.

1045
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 2: I don't know how you do it deeper, but you

1046
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 2: make it sound normal. I feel like it's so strange,

1047
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 2: and your book is, i think I said at the start,

1048
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 2: oddly sort of wholesome for something so unexpected.

1049
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: Well, I think most people are surprised when they think

1050
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: open marriages. You know, they think it's all about the sex.

1051
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 1: This is going to be super racey. But this is

1052
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: part of my life in which I'm also a mother.

1053
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a daughter, I'm a wife, I'm a writer.

1054
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 2: Like there's a lot of sex steper, there's a lot

1055
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 2: of sex there's a lot of sex.

1056
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 1: There's a lot of sex, absolutely, but there's also parts

1057
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 1: in which I as a young, you know, insecure Catholic

1058
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 1: schoolgirl who didn't know what to do with the things

1059
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 1: she was curious about and wanted. There was also, you know,

1060
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,919
Speaker 1: a lonely new mother who was finding out what it

1061
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 1: was like to be isolated within a marriage. You know.

1062
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 1: There is also an immigrant who's making a new life,

1063
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, in a new culture. There's also a woman

1064
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 1: who's dating again at thirty five I think I started dating.

1065
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: I mean, you'll have listeners who are you know, maybe

1066
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:37,959
Speaker 1: divorced or starting over at the age of forty three,

1067
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:41,999
Speaker 1: forty five, fifty and now they're facing this, Oh my gosh,

1068
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 1: what do I do with this dating landscape? So there's

1069
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 1: also that maybe this is what makes the book surprisingly

1070
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: relatable and like normal and wholesome, as you said, because

1071
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: all of the sex, all of the raziness is situated

1072
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 1: in the life of a woman who's also all these

1073
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 1: other things and somehow making it all. You know, and

1074
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 1: you're doing it as well with you have your podcast.

1075
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 1: You are giving so much love to your husband and

1076
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 1: your four children. I mean, when I think of four children.

1077
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: I feel really tired, you know, so I could also

1078
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 1: ask you, I mean, how are you not tired?

1079
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 4: But maybe we all are and and we're doing it

1080
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 4: because somehow it gives us something that's fulfilling and rewarding,

1081
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 4: and the self awareness is worth it for me to

1082
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 4: get to these really sweet spots.

1083
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: And there are more of them than I can write

1084
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 1: in a book. You know, there's still there's still going on,

1085
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 1: Like I hop off the story you know, in the

1086
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 1: book at a certain point when I turned forty and

1087
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: since then, I mean there's only been more of these moments,

1088
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 1: and there's just and these moments of it all works,

1089
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 1: you know, are all really worth all of the They're

1090
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 1: worth the work of making them work.

1091
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 3: Well, that's a MOLTI for life, isn't it?

1092
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 1: For self renewing process? Right? It's not always going to be.

1093
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 1: It's not going to work. You know, we're not going

1094
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,280
Speaker 1: to hit like equilibrium one day and that it's all

1095
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 1: going to be like that our life.

1096
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like going to this, something else will come up. Yeah,

1097
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 2: it's not a destination. I wish I'm like, oh, it's

1098
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 2: it's a cheap process. Deeper, Paul, I wish you every

1099
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 2: luck in your life and your laves.

1100
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Keith. This has been a wonderful conversation.

1101
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:39,240
Speaker 3: So that was Deeper, Paul.

1102
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 2: Most of us will never choose the path Deeper and

1103
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 2: Marcus have taken. But what I found so interesting is

1104
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 2: that they made their own rules. They decided what their

1105
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 2: relationship would look like following the one that they were handed.

1106
01:04:56,320 --> 01:05:00,040
Speaker 2: Deepest story isn't trying to convert anyone or convince us

1107
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 2: that monogamy is outdated. It simply shows that relationships don't

1108
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 2: all have to look the same, and that people can

1109
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 2: live in whatever way makes them feel most alive, most honest,

1110
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:16,440
Speaker 2: and most connected. And for her, this is the shape

1111
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 2: her love story, her life story takes Deeper's book, Ask

1112
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 2: me how it works is out now. If this conversation

1113
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 2: made you think differently about marriage, desire, or the quiet

1114
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 2: compromises we all make, please share the episode with someone

1115
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 2: who'd love it. I'm kateline Brook and this is No Filter.

1116
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 2: The executive producer of No Filter is Nama Brown. The

1117
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 2: senior producer is Pre Player. Audio production is by Tina Mattalov,

1118
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 2: and video editing is by Josh Green. This episode was

1119
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 2: recorded at session in progress Studios.

1120
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 3: Thank you for listening.

1121
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 2: Mumma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land waters

1122
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:06,959
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on