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Speaker 1: Tired, tired, tired, I said love, I said pet. I

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Speaker 1: said I am not on standby to do voice levels.

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Speaker 1: It's got to have a cigarette. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: to do her without it.

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Speaker 2: She got the cigarette.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Mia Freedman, and welcome to No Filter, a

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Speaker 2: podcast where there is no such thing as too much information.

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Speaker 2: My guest today is an Australian icon. She's written some

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Speaker 2: of our best comedy shows and created some of our

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Speaker 2: favorite characters, including Pashrash netballer Sharon Strzelecki, a chain smoking

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Speaker 2: Lynn from Fast Forward. But underneath the many faces and

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Speaker 2: complete hilarity, Magda Szubanski is a woman who has struggled

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Speaker 2: with her identity for most of her life. For the

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Speaker 2: 1st 51 years, Magda hid her sexuality entirely from the

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Speaker 2: public eye.

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Speaker 2: The more famous and successful she became as a comedian

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Speaker 2: and as a writer, the harder she had to hide.

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Speaker 2: She also had to deal with her father's secret history

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Speaker 2: and through all of this, she used food as a

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Speaker 2: coping mechanism.

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Speaker 2: Reckoning, her first book is a memoir that deals with

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Speaker 2: the raw emotion of her life intertwined with her father's

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Speaker 2: experience as a German resistance fighter in World War II.

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Speaker 2: Magda has such an honest approach to everything she does,

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Speaker 2: be it the characters she creates or the way she writes,

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Speaker 2: which is brilliantly. Today I speak to her about what

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Speaker 2: it was like making a decision to tell the world

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Speaker 2: she was, as she said, gay, gay, gay, gay, a

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Speaker 2: little bit not gay, gay, gay, gay. Her very public

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Speaker 2: time is the face of Jenny Craig and why she

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Speaker 2: walked away from that very lucrative weight loss deal twice.

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Speaker 2: After all, we're all reckoning with something.

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Speaker 2: Girlfriend, you can

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Speaker 1: write. Oh thank you. Oh my God, thank you.

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Speaker 2: It was unput downable.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, you're giving me goosebumps. a little teary

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Speaker 2: and just

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Speaker 2: also I read it with a pencil and I was just,

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Speaker 2: I kept circling and underlining just beautiful phrases. You've got

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Speaker 2: a beautiful turn of phrase.

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Speaker 1: Oh thank you, thanks.

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Speaker 2: How did you do it?

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Speaker 1: Um, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I just, um, I, I didn't know

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Speaker 1: if I could do it actually when I first started writing,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know if I could write. Uh, so it's

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Speaker 1: been a huge journey. I started just after my dad died, um,

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Speaker 1: and then it took all sorts of twists and turns.

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Speaker 1: At one point it was going to be a book

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Speaker 1: about my weight loss, although that was complicated by the

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Speaker 1: fact that, of course, I put it all back on again.

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Speaker 1: So there went that idea. But I really, I, I

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Speaker 1: just discovered through the writing of this book how much

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Speaker 1: in love with language I am apart from all the

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Speaker 1: other content stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I suppose I've always played with language really with

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Speaker 1: characters and I've loved writing the scripts that I've been

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Speaker 1: involved with.

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Speaker 2: You wrote the three dog woman series,

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Speaker 1: yeah, and you know a lot of stuff, but to

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Speaker 1: actually just have free reign to really it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: serious book and I wanted the language to match the

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Speaker 1: gravitas of the subject matter in a way, so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Did it, was it a different muscle to the

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Speaker 2: one that you're used to using for obviously writing comedy,

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Speaker 2: but just you're a creative person, you act, you're multi-talented

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Speaker 2: in that way, but did writing feel like a creative

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Speaker 2: muscle cause it feels like a very

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Speaker 2: Different voice.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's the real me and in some ways it was,

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Speaker 1: you know, writing sketch comedy is, I don't, you don't

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Speaker 1: want to make it look like hard work, but it

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Speaker 1: is incredibly freaking hard work because you're straining, well, for me,

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Speaker 1: I was straining my brain away from the way it

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Speaker 1: actually naturally works to put it into sketch comedy mode.

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Speaker 1: It requires a certain adrenalized, um, you know, high octane

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Speaker 1: energy comedy.

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Speaker 1: Whereas, pardon me, whereas this book flowed out of me

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Speaker 1: much more because it really is the way I speak

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Speaker 1: and the way I think and my sense of humor,

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Speaker 1: it's much more the real me.

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Speaker 2: It reads like you just sat down and wrote it

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Speaker 2: like in a week, which I always think is the most,

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Speaker 2: I mean it's rarely that is that, but I always

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Speaker 2: think that's it makes it very easy to read and

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Speaker 2: very um.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't read like it was agony, but you wrote

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Speaker 2: it over 8 years, right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it it wasn't agony, you know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of it really did flow, you know, I understand what

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Speaker 1: they talk about the Holy Spirit, you know, there's something

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Speaker 1: that kind of rights through you and there's some um.

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Speaker 1: You know, in some ways I think the book's smarter

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Speaker 1: than I am. It's weird you access some part of

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Speaker 1: your own brain that's connected to the collective unconscious or something.

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Speaker 1: There's some force that animates and flows through you. It's

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Speaker 1: the same when you're doing comedy or anything creative, you

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Speaker 1: have that sense of flow that they talk about and

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Speaker 1: it's a strangely impersonal thing um and um you know,

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Speaker 1: without getting too wanky about it.

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Speaker 1: Let's get let's get. I'm capable of it, you know,

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Speaker 1: I can go right to the wank place, um, but

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Speaker 1: it really, uh, I loved writing. I absolutely, um, I

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Speaker 1: said this at an event the other night and there

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Speaker 1: was sort of an, oh, you know, it's the, this

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Speaker 1: is my favorite thing that I've ever done. I have

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Speaker 1: to say. It's the most satisfying and complete thing because

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Speaker 1: it's humor, but, but it's also the serious, it's it's

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Speaker 1: the whole me, you know, much more.

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Speaker 2: It's also the only thing.

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Speaker 2: Um, as a performer as you are, there are so

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Speaker 2: many people involved in every aspect of what you do

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Speaker 2: if you're doing a show, if you're doing whatever it

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Speaker 2: happens to be, but this is just

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Speaker 1: you. Yeah, yeah, I can't hide the scrum at all.

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Speaker 1: But also you don't have the endless frustrations that you

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Speaker 1: have when you're making film and TV about the budget,

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Speaker 1: the location, the costumes, all those, you know, dealing with

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Speaker 1: reality things, whereas with a book you can really, um,

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Speaker 1: although I was constrained because this is a real story

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Speaker 1: and I was

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Speaker 1: I had to adhere to the truth of that, but

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Speaker 1: you can kind of go wherever you want to go

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Speaker 1: with that, and there's no budget, you know, if I

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Speaker 1: wanted to go and write about Warsaw in 1943, I could,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I didn't have to worry about whether

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Speaker 1: the

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Speaker 1: The film had the budget for that, you know, the

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Speaker 1: book can do that. So that was incredibly liberating. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's called Reckoning, and it's about you coming to terms

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Speaker 2: with so many things, but it's a book fundamentally about identity,

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Speaker 2: isn't it? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah, it is actually. It very much is, which mine

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Speaker 1: and mine still isn't fully formed, I would say.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to, it's gonna sound funny, but I wanted

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Speaker 2: to say thank you on behalf of Jewish people because

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Speaker 2: I am the official spokesperson of all Jewish people. No,

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Speaker 2: but I am Jewish and I lost relatives in the

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Speaker 2: Holocaust and and

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Speaker 2: Your father was the most extraordinary hero, and he and

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Speaker 2: his family in Poland risked their lives for a long

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Speaker 2: time sheltering Jewish people and one little boy in particular

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Speaker 2: because the price of doing that was their own death,

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Speaker 1: if they'd been caught and as I describe in the book,

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Speaker 1: my grandparents were 45 when the war started, and that's

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Speaker 1: not young, you know, you know consequences. My father was

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Speaker 1: 15 and there's a certain

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Speaker 1: Um, you're reckless youth, you don't understand mortality, all those

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Speaker 1: kind of things. So I'm really in awe of my grandparents' courage,

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Speaker 1: particularly somehow my grandmother really and my aunt, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: because she had the little Jewish boy used to sleep

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Speaker 1: in her bed, you know, I mean, I mean what

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Speaker 1: would have happened to them if they'd been caught, um,

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Speaker 1: just doesn't even bear thinking about and to well they

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Speaker 1: would have been killed and they knew that they most

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Speaker 1: likely would have been tortured because of the unit that

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Speaker 1: my father and my uncle were in.

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Speaker 1: Because my father and my uncle were in this unit 993W,

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Speaker 1: which was a top secret counterintelligence unit, and basically they

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Speaker 1: were executing Polish collaborators who were telling the Gestapo um

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Speaker 1: secrets of the resistance, but also telling the Gestapo where

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Speaker 1: where Jewish people were hiding.

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Speaker 1: And the Polish, you know, official line on that, they

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Speaker 1: took a very hard line on collaboration and

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Speaker 2: it was

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Speaker 2: an incredibly, I mean, not just brave but moral thing

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Speaker 2: that they did,

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Speaker 1: they were good people, good people

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Speaker 2: didn't turn away.

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Speaker 1: No, no, they didn't, and you know.

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Speaker 1: I asked myself what would I have done in the

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Speaker 1: same circumstance, and you just don't know, you know. But

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Speaker 1: I asked my cousin who's also called Magda, Magda Magda,

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Speaker 1: very glamorous Polish actress, funnily enough, um, but I, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to understand it was almost like doing a taxonomy

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Speaker 1: of courage, you know, in some ways to try and

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Speaker 1: understand where did that courage come from, what informed it,

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Speaker 1: and how did they maintain that over six long years?

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Speaker 1: And I said to her one time, you know, where

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Speaker 1: did our grandmother's courage come from? And she just said, breeding.

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Speaker 1: You know, meaning basically that they were brought up to

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Speaker 1: have those values and they were trained in that way

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Speaker 1: so that essentially when the time came, because they were

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Speaker 1: from that kind of stream of Polish, you know, Poland's

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Speaker 1: a very complex country and its history with Jewish people

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Speaker 1: is enormously complex as I'm sure you know, but they

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Speaker 1: were from that stream that was very kind of multicultural.

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Speaker 1: They had a lot of Jewish friends and to them,

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Speaker 1: as my cousin said, these weren't.

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Speaker 1: Jewish people they were Polish people. They saw no difference,

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Speaker 1: you know, and that's, you know, those sort of that

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Speaker 1: way of conducting yourself in the world is as relevant,

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Speaker 1: if not more relevant now than ever really.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting, you know, part of what you write about

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Speaker 2: is the sense that traumatic life experiences can be inherited

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Speaker 2: sort of through DNA in the same way as blue

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Speaker 2: eyes or blonde hair.

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Speaker 2: And there's a very strong understanding of that among Jewish people,

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Speaker 2: this sense of survivor guilt and the effects of the

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Speaker 2: Holocaust as it's come down into generations who never experienced it,

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Speaker 2: but who are profoundly affected.

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Speaker 2: And the same thing happened with you. You felt that's

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Speaker 2: one of the things you experienced or you explored

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Speaker 2: in the book.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think, I think really there's a kind of

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Speaker 1: I'm reminded of that amazing episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm

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Speaker 1: with the little gay, he looks like a gay boy

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Speaker 1: you know he's talking about the Holocaust.

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Speaker 1: He says, get over it, Jews, you know, and there's

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Speaker 1: that kind of an attitude sometimes that I, I suppose

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Speaker 1: because of my proximity to it, I look at Jewish

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Speaker 1: people and the suffering that they've gone through and, and

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Speaker 1: think about the toll that that must take and often

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Speaker 1: allowance isn't made for that, um, like how, how that would.

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Speaker 1: Existentially affect you, you know, generations, generations and I met

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Speaker 1: this young Polish Jewish woman actually at a function and

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Speaker 1: she was saying her grandmother hated Polish people, you know,

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Speaker 1: she'd had bad experiences.

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Speaker 1: And she was really surprised and relieved to hear about

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Speaker 1: my grandparents, and, and I thought it was really important

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Speaker 1: and an important thing for the book too, for Jewish

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Speaker 1: people to know that there were Polish people that cared

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Speaker 1: and that risked their lives and for, for in order,

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Speaker 1: and the reason for saying that is so that Jewish

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Speaker 1: people don't feel so alone, you know, because I think

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Speaker 1: that's a horrible feeling to feel like no one cared.

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Speaker 1: It's like people did and it might not have always

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Speaker 1: been evident.

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Speaker 1: But there were people that did. I think that's a

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Speaker 1: really important message to

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Speaker 1: get across

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Speaker 2: and the sense that it's not ancient history,

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Speaker 1: it's within living memory and I do think it's passed

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Speaker 1: on somehow genetically. I mean there's all those studies they're

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Speaker 1: doing now, epigenetics they've done actually with Jewish second generation

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Speaker 1: Holocaust survivors and

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Speaker 1: And they've shown that the effects of trauma and stress

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Speaker 1: are communicated and when you say that to people, everyone

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Speaker 1: just goes, yeah, totally get it, you know, no one goes, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't reckon, although I have other friends who are

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Speaker 1: Jewish Holocaust survivors, second generation, and they don't want that

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Speaker 1: to be true because they don't want to be burdened

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Speaker 1: with that. They want to be able to live outside

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Speaker 1: and beyond it, you know, but you know we're all

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Speaker 1: reckoning with something,

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Speaker 2: aren't we was an extraordinary man, an extraordinary man.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to take you to a scene in the

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Speaker 2: book that I really love, there's so many, but, um, one,

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Speaker 2: when you're playing soccer on the beach with a group

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Speaker 2: of friends on a camping trip. yeah, can you just

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Speaker 2: talk about about that? I loved that

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Speaker 2: scene.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I love that too. Um, I, this is

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Speaker 1: after I'd lost all the weight when I did Jenny

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Speaker 1: Craig and um, you know, there's one thing that I

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Speaker 1: sort of grieve the loss of is physical mobility, and

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Speaker 1: I don't run. It's just too hard when you're overweight,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 1: But when you're not overweight, true, true, true, um, and, um,

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Speaker 1: I went with a bunch of girlfriends. There's a huge

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Speaker 1: sort of posse of us who go camping every now

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Speaker 1: and then, and we went to Cape Levec and it

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Speaker 1: was so beautiful. We were in the really rough campy

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Speaker 1: part of it, you know, where it's like Gilligan's Island

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Speaker 1: and there's this incredible stark beauty as I described it

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Speaker 1: in the book, if they had, you know, beach resorts

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Speaker 1: on the moon or Mars, that's what, that, that would

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Speaker 1: be Cape Levec.

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Speaker 1: Um, and, um, we were, we were all down on

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Speaker 1: the rocks that sort of on the cliff, and the

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Speaker 1: moon came out and it just illuminated the beach like

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Speaker 1: this ghostly soccer arena, and we all spontaneously ran down

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Speaker 1: onto the beach and started kicking a soccer ball around

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Speaker 1: and I was, because I was the lightest I'd been

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Speaker 1: for a very long time and I was sprinting around

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Speaker 1: and elbowing people and getting the ball and

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Speaker 1: Laughing so hard I wet myself and it was the

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Speaker 1: most incredible feeling and but there was also, it was

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Speaker 1: tinged with a slight sadness because I didn't know if

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Speaker 1: it would last and then it didn't, you know, I

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Speaker 1: put the weight back on, so I had this sort

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Speaker 1: of glimpse of it, but, you know, to be honest,

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Speaker 1: I haven't given up on the idea of um

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm in this perpetual bloody thing of, you know,

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Speaker 1: should I just accept my weight as it is, or

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Speaker 1: should I keep trying to lose weight, but

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Speaker 2: You don't look overweight to me.

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Speaker 1: Thanks,

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Speaker 2: you actually

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Speaker 2: don't. Oh well,

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Speaker 1: you know, look, I am carrying

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Speaker 2: you in person, but I don't

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Speaker 1: like look, I'm naturally my natural instinct is to be

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Speaker 1: a camping outdoorsy girl, and I'm carrying a little bit

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Speaker 1: too much weight to do that. So so just to

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Speaker 1: get to that sort of weight there is, you know,

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Speaker 1: would be really comfortable, but that's

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Speaker 1: You know, outside of all of the body image craziness

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Speaker 1: of the, you know, I mean, we're so nuts about it,

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Speaker 1: all of us, and, and I'm involved in that. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to be a woman and be sane, I think

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Speaker 1: about your body and what you put into it.

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Speaker 2: The 3, the 3, you know, the book's called Reckoning

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Speaker 2: and the 3 issues that you reckon with throughout the

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Speaker 2: book that weave in and out are your father and

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Speaker 2: his history, your sexuality, and your weight and they sort

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Speaker 2: of provide this framework for a whole bunch of other stuff.

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Speaker 2: Um, do you feel like they're intertwined, those three things,

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Speaker 2: or at least sexuality and your weight? Good

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Speaker 1: question. Yeah, I think they are. I think they are. Well,

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Speaker 1: my father sort of started on at me. His mother

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Speaker 1: was overweight and he was overweight when he was a kid,

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Speaker 1: and then he was in the POW camp and lost

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Speaker 1: the weight and was very handsome, um, and so Jenny Craig.

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Speaker 1: It was totally, but he managed to hang on to it.

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Speaker 1: He had an iron will, my father.

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Speaker 1: Um, and from the age of 11, he said to me,

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Speaker 1: when I put on, like, clearly I was just pubescent,

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Speaker 1: and I'd put on a tiny bit of weight and

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Speaker 1: he said if you just lose half a stone, you'll

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Speaker 1: be fine for the purposes of playing tennis because he

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Speaker 1: was tennis

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Speaker 1: mad.

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Speaker 2: And his way of doing that is to just not

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Speaker 2: eat willpower,

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Speaker 1: starve yourself, which is how he managed it and somehow

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Speaker 1: he did um but it just propelled me into this

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Speaker 1: absolute craziness, you know, it messed with my metabolism. I mean,

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Speaker 1: God bless him, he was trying to do the right thing.

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Speaker 1: Um, he had all sorts of complex stuff going on about,

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Speaker 1: you know,

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Speaker 2: about, I mean someone who's been starved and been in

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Speaker 2: a prison camp, you know, their issues around weight must

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Speaker 2: be manifest, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but also, you know, his mother was overweight and

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Speaker 1: You know, there was things have started to change in

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Speaker 1: the last maybe 10 years, but for a long time

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Speaker 1: overweight people were the last most vilified group, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think still, still, I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of shame attached to it. It's, you know,

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Speaker 1: I seem to have picked all the ways of being

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Speaker 1: in the world that have shame attached.

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Speaker 1: Um, and, uh, slowly I'm just working my way through

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Speaker 1: it and going, you know what, I, I, I ain't

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Speaker 1: gonna be shamed no more. Um, so whether or not

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Speaker 1: the weight is a metaphor, um, uh, I read, I

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Speaker 1: read that fantastic book, Fat is a Feminist Issue years

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Speaker 1: ago by Susie Orbach, um, and then the, the sort

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Speaker 1: of opposite side of that was reading Susan Sontag when

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Speaker 1: she wrote about, um, uh, AIDS as metaphor and illness

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Speaker 1: as metaphor, and, and, and she disputed the idea of

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Speaker 1: the body being a metaphor for what's going on emotionally.

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Speaker 1: Um, and where did you land?

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Speaker 1: I think it's halfway between, like everything, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: the middle path. I think it is both a metaphor

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Speaker 1: and an emotional expression, and it's also just purely, you know,

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Speaker 1: in some regards just physiological and genetic.

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Speaker 2: You talked about, you described it as a flesh armor

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Speaker 2: that you created around yourself at a time when you

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Speaker 2: were struggling with your sexuality, which is kind of for

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Speaker 2: decades really, um.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about, so, so the decision

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Speaker 2: to do Jenny Craig, talk me through that because you

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Speaker 2: write about that in the book. You don't write about

365
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Speaker 2: it much, so it's not a huge part of the book,

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Speaker 2: but the actual decision to do Jenny Craig must have

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Speaker 2: been a huge one because by doing that you take

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Speaker 2: your weight and you make it currency, for better or worse. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Did you realize what a big decision that was going

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Speaker 2: to

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Speaker 2: be?

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Speaker 1: Probably not fully.

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Speaker 2: How could you?

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Speaker 1: I know it's the same with this book. What have

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Speaker 1: I done in some regards, um, but, um, I had

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Speaker 1: gotten to a point physically and health wise where I

377
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Speaker 1: had to do something. I had shocking sleep apnea.

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Speaker 1: My friends were worried. My friends were worried, and another

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Speaker 1: friend who was doing the advertising for Jenny Craig approached

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Speaker 1: me and said, look, they'd be interested. Would you be interested?

381
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Speaker 1: And I said no. And then a year later I

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Speaker 1: thought maybe it's a good way to do it. There's

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Speaker 1: a financial incentive, there's a sort of a contract, you,

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Speaker 1: you've got a structure around you publicly accountable in a

385
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Speaker 1: way accountable, but you've also got public support and I

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Speaker 1: knew that because of being a public person.

387
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Speaker 1: The public is so and the media are so obsessed

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Speaker 1: with weight loss and weight gain. I knew no matter

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Speaker 1: what way I did it, it would be a public

390
00:17:57,575 --> 00:17:59,126
Speaker 1: issue anyway, so I kind of thought, why not just

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Speaker 1: tackle it head on. um and um so really that

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Speaker 1: was how the, how the whole thing went and, and, um, um,

393
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Speaker 1: I sort of wanted to in some ways say some,

394
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Speaker 1: I thought it was also a platform to say some

395
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Speaker 1: things about body image and the shaming of overweight people

396
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Speaker 1: and

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Speaker 1: The fact that I was very clear about the fact

398
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Speaker 1: that I had no intention of getting skinny, but I

399
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Speaker 1: needed to lose some weight.

400
00:18:22,496 --> 00:18:25,575
Speaker 1: Um, but sometimes you know it's very hard to get

401
00:18:25,575 --> 00:18:26,546
Speaker 1: a complex message

402
00:18:26,546 --> 00:18:26,815
Speaker 1: through.

403
00:18:26,896 --> 00:18:29,616
Speaker 2: But you were also honest in terms of, you know,

404
00:18:29,695 --> 00:18:32,016
Speaker 2: you did interviews with the Women's Weekly and you talked

405
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Speaker 2: about how there was also therapy was required and how

406
00:18:35,616 --> 00:18:38,116
Speaker 2: it wasn't just, I'm just gonna eat a few meals

407
00:18:38,116 --> 00:18:40,215
Speaker 2: and magically the weight will fall off like you were

408
00:18:40,215 --> 00:18:42,296
Speaker 2: very open and honest about

409
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Speaker 2: it.

410
00:18:42,776 --> 00:18:46,536
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was and um thanks for picking up

411
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Speaker 1: on that because I was really conscientious about that.

412
00:18:49,626 --> 00:18:52,175
Speaker 1: And certainly, you know, I've done a ton of therapy

413
00:18:52,175 --> 00:18:54,366
Speaker 1: in my life, you know, I think everyone should do

414
00:18:54,366 --> 00:18:56,605
Speaker 1: it isn't the

415
00:18:56,605 --> 00:18:57,355
Speaker 1: best thing

416
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Speaker 2: I don't know how anyone can get through life without

417
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Speaker 2: doing it.

418
00:19:00,845 --> 00:19:04,085
Speaker 1: Well, you see people and they don't struggle. I don't

419
00:19:04,085 --> 00:19:06,565
Speaker 1: see why you wouldn't avail yourself of the skills and

420
00:19:06,565 --> 00:19:08,845
Speaker 1: the tools if there's a smarter way to do something.

421
00:19:09,026 --> 00:19:09,325
Speaker 2: You don't do your own

422
00:19:09,325 --> 00:19:10,116
Speaker 2: dental work.

423
00:19:11,538 --> 00:19:13,658
Speaker 2: I don't fix my own car. Maybe some people can,

424
00:19:13,808 --> 00:19:15,398
Speaker 2: but no, I see it in the same way.

425
00:19:15,928 --> 00:19:18,768
Speaker 1: To me too, me too, but yeah, I very much

426
00:19:18,768 --> 00:19:21,128
Speaker 1: wanted to get across. I think there is, there are

427
00:19:21,128 --> 00:19:25,398
Speaker 1: really complex emotional psychological things that go on with weight.

428
00:19:26,248 --> 00:19:30,388
Speaker 1: The whole thing, I actually think no one really understands it,

429
00:19:30,689 --> 00:19:32,518
Speaker 1: you know, it still eludes them.

430
00:19:33,501 --> 00:19:37,091
Speaker 2: Unscramble the egg between society's expectations and our history and

431
00:19:37,091 --> 00:19:39,812
Speaker 2: our parents and the messages we receive and the messages

432
00:19:39,812 --> 00:19:42,572
Speaker 2: we internalize, it is hard to unscramble all that. But

433
00:19:42,572 --> 00:19:45,012
Speaker 2: you did lose all this weight and you talk about

434
00:19:45,012 --> 00:19:46,572
Speaker 2: how at the age of 50 when most women are

435
00:19:46,572 --> 00:19:50,811
Speaker 2: becoming invisible, you were swimming upstream because suddenly you're in

436
00:19:50,812 --> 00:19:52,731
Speaker 2: a black tight black dress, you're on the cover of

437
00:19:52,731 --> 00:19:55,351
Speaker 2: Women's Weekly, men and women were flirting with you.

438
00:19:56,786 --> 00:19:59,085
Speaker 2: What was that like? Was that the first time you'd

439
00:19:59,085 --> 00:20:02,565
Speaker 2: experienced being valued for how you look in a positive

440
00:20:02,565 --> 00:20:02,855
Speaker 2: way?

441
00:20:02,925 --> 00:20:06,006
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because I put weight on um in my

442
00:20:06,006 --> 00:20:10,725
Speaker 1: early teens and I sort of, you know, I sort

443
00:20:10,725 --> 00:20:12,366
Speaker 1: of felt that I could hide.

444
00:20:12,536 --> 00:20:15,006
Speaker 1: In that in a sense, um, but this was the

445
00:20:15,006 --> 00:20:17,435
Speaker 1: first time, you know, I'd always been the funny one,

446
00:20:17,766 --> 00:20:19,046
Speaker 1: but suddenly I was like the hot one and I,

447
00:20:19,595 --> 00:20:22,646
Speaker 1: I was amazed that people I know I was sort

448
00:20:22,646 --> 00:20:25,276
Speaker 1: of really taken aback, but people kept kept kind of

449
00:20:25,406 --> 00:20:27,725
Speaker 1: saying that and I was like, well, I suppose so, right,

450
00:20:27,805 --> 00:20:28,486
Speaker 1: then I'll go with that.

451
00:20:28,955 --> 00:20:31,715
Speaker 1: And it was, it was a really extraordinary experience and

452
00:20:31,715 --> 00:20:35,355
Speaker 1: it quite unnerved me in some ways and there's this

453
00:20:35,355 --> 00:20:37,675
Speaker 1: whole sort of myth that you lose weight and then

454
00:20:37,675 --> 00:20:41,116
Speaker 1: all your problems, you know, and everyone knows it's not

455
00:20:41,116 --> 00:20:44,305
Speaker 1: like that, you know what I think it's like that.

456
00:20:44,315 --> 00:20:45,955
Speaker 1: I know they do and they want to keep thinking

457
00:20:45,955 --> 00:20:47,195
Speaker 1: it's like that

458
00:20:47,195 --> 00:20:50,006
Speaker 2: you think that it would be like that in some way,

459
00:20:50,085 --> 00:20:54,396
Speaker 1: probably a little bit. You just get won over by

460
00:20:54,396 --> 00:20:55,276
Speaker 1: that stuff, don't you?

461
00:20:55,756 --> 00:20:58,465
Speaker 1: Um, and you know, certainly a lot of, you know,

462
00:20:58,666 --> 00:21:01,266
Speaker 1: pains and aches and things like that were solved by

463
00:21:01,266 --> 00:21:05,006
Speaker 1: losing weight and health issues, certainly. Um, but you know,

464
00:21:05,185 --> 00:21:07,386
Speaker 1: you've got then a whole lot of other set of

465
00:21:07,386 --> 00:21:09,225
Speaker 1: issues to address and as I describe in the book,

466
00:21:09,345 --> 00:21:12,105
Speaker 1: suddenly I became really self-conscious about the way I looked

467
00:21:12,105 --> 00:21:15,626
Speaker 1: and I felt like a bauble, you know, and I

468
00:21:15,626 --> 00:21:19,085
Speaker 1: get now how, um, I'd always felt that side of that.

469
00:21:19,105 --> 00:21:21,565
Speaker 1: I was always a sort of nerdy one, you know,

470
00:21:21,825 --> 00:21:25,026
Speaker 1: and I didn't ever use that as currency and suddenly

471
00:21:25,026 --> 00:21:25,445
Speaker 1: I

472
00:21:25,641 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 1: Got how other women felt for the first time, I think, really.

473
00:21:29,401 --> 00:21:32,921
Speaker 2: And because the the double side of that is that

474
00:21:33,411 --> 00:21:35,440
Speaker 2: you get it, but then you know you can lose

475
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,161
Speaker 2: it because we're all going to lose it, whether it's

476
00:21:37,161 --> 00:21:40,690
Speaker 2: weight or getting older or going gray, whatever it happens

477
00:21:40,690 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 2: to be, you can't stay hot forever, although society tells

478
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:46,521
Speaker 2: us we should try.

479
00:21:48,935 --> 00:21:49,366
Speaker 1: Yeah,

480
00:21:50,116 --> 00:21:50,736
Speaker 2: but you

481
00:21:50,736 --> 00:21:53,286
Speaker 2: said something really interesting because you said the sexiness of

482
00:21:53,286 --> 00:21:57,406
Speaker 2: fat is like a dirty little secret. And so it's

483
00:21:57,406 --> 00:22:00,715
Speaker 2: not like you hadn't experienced people being attracted to you

484
00:22:00,715 --> 00:22:04,026
Speaker 2: and experience what it was like to feel sexually desirable,

485
00:22:04,725 --> 00:22:08,246
Speaker 2: but this was, it was it was like what did

486
00:22:08,246 --> 00:22:08,685
Speaker 2: you mean by

487
00:22:08,685 --> 00:22:09,065
Speaker 2: that?

488
00:22:09,366 --> 00:22:11,725
Speaker 1: Well, that really a lot of people won't admit to

489
00:22:11,725 --> 00:22:12,965
Speaker 1: feeling attracted to fat women.

490
00:22:13,496 --> 00:22:17,685
Speaker 1: You know, especially men, there's a, you know, that whole weird.

491
00:22:19,445 --> 00:22:21,815
Speaker 1: There's the feeder thing and then there's those college frat

492
00:22:21,815 --> 00:22:23,825
Speaker 1: boys that sort of, you know, do all the things

493
00:22:23,825 --> 00:22:26,455
Speaker 1: about fat girls won't screw a fat girl, that kind

494
00:22:26,455 --> 00:22:30,815
Speaker 1: of thing. No, there's whole fat shaming things that go

495
00:22:30,815 --> 00:22:31,935
Speaker 1: on about that, but

496
00:22:32,195 --> 00:22:35,866
Speaker 1: Um, you know, this is one thing that the internet

497
00:22:35,866 --> 00:22:37,986
Speaker 1: has done for us and porn is it reveals that

498
00:22:37,986 --> 00:22:41,975
Speaker 1: people have all sorts of sexual that are not we

499
00:22:41,975 --> 00:22:44,215
Speaker 1: constantly have shoved down our throat that there's one type

500
00:22:44,215 --> 00:22:48,016
Speaker 1: of desirable body, Miranda Miranda Kerr, and it turns out

501
00:22:48,016 --> 00:22:51,455
Speaker 1: that actually people are attracted to all sorts of things. Well,

502
00:22:52,705 --> 00:22:54,546
Speaker 1: we didn't for a long time, I don't think you

503
00:22:54,546 --> 00:22:54,555
Speaker 1: know

504
00:22:56,866 --> 00:22:59,166
Speaker 2: how did that change? Like, were people just more open

505
00:22:59,166 --> 00:22:59,585
Speaker 2: about it?

506
00:23:00,435 --> 00:23:01,296
Speaker 1: Well, um,

507
00:23:01,366 --> 00:23:02,315
Speaker 2: when you lost the weight,

508
00:23:02,565 --> 00:23:04,475
Speaker 1: yeah, and I mean I was still, I was still

509
00:23:04,475 --> 00:23:07,925
Speaker 1: what would be classified as overweight, but I think maybe

510
00:23:07,925 --> 00:23:11,636
Speaker 1: because I was just packaged in a different way or something, um, uh,

511
00:23:11,646 --> 00:23:16,406
Speaker 1: thanks to the stylists, um, yeah, people were really engaging

512
00:23:16,406 --> 00:23:18,286
Speaker 1: with me in that way and I was like, wow,

513
00:23:18,445 --> 00:23:18,955
Speaker 2: this is

514
00:23:19,866 --> 00:23:22,205
Speaker 2: a weird thing to sort of participate in your own

515
00:23:22,205 --> 00:23:25,166
Speaker 2: objectification and have it as something you haven't sort of,

516
00:23:25,286 --> 00:23:26,486
Speaker 2: that's something quite sudden.

517
00:23:26,866 --> 00:23:28,935
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, it was very weird. Suddenly I was

518
00:23:28,935 --> 00:23:31,376
Speaker 1: the object of the gaze, you know, and I really

519
00:23:31,376 --> 00:23:35,416
Speaker 1: felt that somehow I'd existed outside of that. I had, yeah,

520
00:23:35,776 --> 00:23:38,876
Speaker 1: I really had, and suddenly I went, oh my God

521
00:23:38,876 --> 00:23:41,335
Speaker 2: and you'd been for other things, how you were, what

522
00:23:41,335 --> 00:23:43,215
Speaker 2: you could say, what you could do, your talent, and

523
00:23:43,215 --> 00:23:45,725
Speaker 2: then suddenly it's like, oh she's hot bauble

524
00:23:45,725 --> 00:23:45,736
Speaker 1: yeah

525
00:23:45,736 --> 00:23:49,246
Speaker 2: bauble. So it's like the plus and minus of that.

526
00:23:49,355 --> 00:23:53,455
Speaker 2: And then of course then people started stalking you and

527
00:23:53,455 --> 00:23:54,616
Speaker 2: paparazzi and

528
00:23:54,906 --> 00:23:57,416
Speaker 2: Let's get Magda eating and let's get Mag in a swimsuit.

529
00:23:57,705 --> 00:23:59,565
Speaker 2: That must have been horrendous.

530
00:24:00,065 --> 00:24:03,215
Speaker 1: It goes through a cycle. What happens is initially it's

531
00:24:03,215 --> 00:24:07,935
Speaker 1: absolutely horrific and you feel like hunted prey, you know,

532
00:24:08,305 --> 00:24:10,386
Speaker 1: because the way they follow you is like you're an

533
00:24:10,386 --> 00:24:14,146
Speaker 1: animal of prey. It's, it's really awful. It's like having

534
00:24:14,146 --> 00:24:18,425
Speaker 1: wolves coming after you, um, and, and it's, I think

535
00:24:18,425 --> 00:24:20,546
Speaker 1: the lizard part of your brain just responds to it

536
00:24:20,546 --> 00:24:21,866
Speaker 1: like that, you know, um.

537
00:24:22,146 --> 00:24:25,455
Speaker 1: But then after a while, after they've done the worst

538
00:24:25,455 --> 00:24:27,736
Speaker 1: they can do and shown you shoving food into your

539
00:24:27,736 --> 00:24:31,536
Speaker 1: face and you know, the most unattractive and all of that,

540
00:24:31,616 --> 00:24:33,095
Speaker 1: you know, you and your bathers at the beach and

541
00:24:33,095 --> 00:24:34,046
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff.

542
00:24:34,646 --> 00:24:37,386
Speaker 1: In another way, and I'm not saying that the paparazzi

543
00:24:37,386 --> 00:24:40,506
Speaker 1: are providing a public service, but in another way you

544
00:24:40,506 --> 00:24:43,266
Speaker 1: come through the other end of it sort of liberated

545
00:24:43,266 --> 00:24:45,335
Speaker 1: because you just go, well, what are you going to do,

546
00:24:45,455 --> 00:24:51,046
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I, you know, yes, I go down

547
00:24:51,046 --> 00:24:52,906
Speaker 1: the street looking wind blown with no makeup on and

548
00:24:52,906 --> 00:24:53,825
Speaker 1: my track pants on.

549
00:24:54,236 --> 00:24:59,616
Speaker 2: Um, there was a real gotcha about it though, wasn't it?

550
00:24:59,626 --> 00:25:00,075
Speaker 2: It was not

551
00:25:00,075 --> 00:25:00,236
Speaker 2: done

552
00:25:00,236 --> 00:25:04,746
Speaker 1: in a, you know, glory in my sort of, you know,

553
00:25:05,435 --> 00:25:07,355
Speaker 1: they didn't go too far because there is a certain

554
00:25:07,355 --> 00:25:09,636
Speaker 1: affection that the Australian public have for me and so

555
00:25:09,636 --> 00:25:09,996
Speaker 1: they were a

556
00:25:09,996 --> 00:25:10,705
Speaker 1: bit careful.

557
00:25:10,796 --> 00:25:13,435
Speaker 2: You've always been number one on Q scores. I remember

558
00:25:13,435 --> 00:25:14,195
Speaker 2: for many, many, many.

559
00:25:14,330 --> 00:25:17,361
Speaker 2: Years like just the top of the tree with scores.

560
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,230
Speaker 2: So yeah, there has been a huge affection, so they knew,

561
00:25:20,281 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 2: but then they they use weasel words like enjoying her

562
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,391
Speaker 2: curves and those kind of things where it's so passive aggressive.

563
00:25:27,511 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: I know. Well, it's schizophrenic, you know, enjoying her new

564
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: beach body when they when they try and get the

565
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,631
Speaker 1: worst possible shot of you, you know.

566
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:35,300
Speaker 2: You knew

567
00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 2: though when you signed on to Jennet, did you know,

568
00:25:37,161 --> 00:25:39,950
Speaker 2: listen to me putting words into your mouth, that how

569
00:25:39,950 --> 00:25:41,761
Speaker 2: do you then turn that off? It's like once you

570
00:25:41,761 --> 00:25:43,210
Speaker 2: put that ball into play.

571
00:25:44,016 --> 00:25:46,786
Speaker 2: How do you then go, OK guys, I'm resigning for

572
00:25:46,786 --> 00:25:49,055
Speaker 2: from talking about weight in every interview and da da da.

573
00:25:49,335 --> 00:25:51,575
Speaker 2: Now I've done Jenny Craig, I've done 2 years, whatever.

574
00:25:51,695 --> 00:25:54,695
Speaker 2: Now how do I, you know, drawing a line under it.

575
00:25:54,736 --> 00:25:56,975
Speaker 1: I don't think you can ever put the toothpaste back

576
00:25:56,975 --> 00:25:59,896
Speaker 1: in the tube, and I don't think I quite, I

577
00:25:59,896 --> 00:26:01,455
Speaker 1: didn't know it was going to go off the way

578
00:26:01,455 --> 00:26:03,695
Speaker 1: it did. I didn't know it would be as huge

579
00:26:03,695 --> 00:26:07,215
Speaker 1: as it was, um, you know, that said, I went

580
00:26:07,215 --> 00:26:10,565
Speaker 1: into it with open eyes and and maybe some naivety thinking.

581
00:26:10,736 --> 00:26:13,175
Speaker 1: I think I thought I could maybe control.

582
00:26:13,386 --> 00:26:17,925
Speaker 1: Um, the, the debate a bit more and try and

583
00:26:17,925 --> 00:26:20,725
Speaker 1: bring some common sense into it and then you just

584
00:26:20,725 --> 00:26:24,195
Speaker 1: realize it's a mad beast there's nothing you can do.

585
00:26:24,366 --> 00:26:25,516
Speaker 1: There's nothing you can do.

586
00:26:25,766 --> 00:26:29,965
Speaker 2: Do you think the fact that you came out in

587
00:26:29,965 --> 00:26:33,236
Speaker 2: 2012 when you lost the weight, do you think that

588
00:26:33,246 --> 00:26:33,256
Speaker 2: that

589
00:26:33,256 --> 00:26:33,776
Speaker 2: was

590
00:26:35,026 --> 00:26:36,705
Speaker 1: Well then I started to put the weight on again

591
00:26:36,705 --> 00:26:36,825
Speaker 1: I

592
00:26:36,825 --> 00:26:38,906
Speaker 2: think didn't you say after you came out you put

593
00:26:38,906 --> 00:26:39,945
Speaker 2: the weight back

594
00:26:39,945 --> 00:26:44,416
Speaker 1: I think I felt intensely vulnerable and certainly, you know,

595
00:26:44,425 --> 00:26:47,345
Speaker 1: that idea of fat is metaphor, you know, it is

596
00:26:47,345 --> 00:26:49,455
Speaker 1: sort of a bit like a shield, a bit like armor.

597
00:26:50,315 --> 00:26:52,935
Speaker 1: And um you know, whether it was just that or

598
00:26:52,935 --> 00:26:55,626
Speaker 1: whether it was just that's what happens, you know, very

599
00:26:55,626 --> 00:26:58,296
Speaker 1: few people like the the statistics for people who lose

600
00:26:58,296 --> 00:27:01,126
Speaker 1: weight and keep it off are diabolical. It's like about 3%

601
00:27:01,126 --> 00:27:04,215
Speaker 1: I've since discovered. So it's, you know, the chances of

602
00:27:04,215 --> 00:27:06,406
Speaker 1: keeping it off, it's very hard, um.

603
00:27:07,166 --> 00:27:11,345
Speaker 1: But I think um um really, you know, that whole

604
00:27:11,345 --> 00:27:14,746
Speaker 1: thing of coming out was a really interesting um.

605
00:27:15,896 --> 00:27:18,815
Speaker 1: What happened initially after it, there's a whole other myth

606
00:27:18,815 --> 00:27:21,376
Speaker 1: too about like losing weight like everything's going to be

607
00:27:21,376 --> 00:27:22,136
Speaker 1: perfect

608
00:27:22,136 --> 00:27:25,105
Speaker 2: so interesting to read. I thought, oh, you've come out now.

609
00:27:25,175 --> 00:27:26,916
Speaker 2: It's like you'll run down the street I was shit

610
00:27:26,916 --> 00:27:26,975
Speaker 2: scared because

611
00:27:32,105 --> 00:27:34,896
Speaker 1: you know, and this is where that sort of Polish

612
00:27:34,896 --> 00:27:38,475
Speaker 1: European legacy adheres because

613
00:27:39,736 --> 00:27:42,616
Speaker 1: I grew up with this intimate knowledge of that the

614
00:27:42,616 --> 00:27:45,575
Speaker 1: world can take a very dark turn and there's always,

615
00:27:45,656 --> 00:27:48,536
Speaker 1: it's just in me to have that slight mistrust of

616
00:27:48,536 --> 00:27:50,616
Speaker 1: the mob, you know, and the way things go, which

617
00:27:50,616 --> 00:27:53,616
Speaker 1: is weird because I've made in some ways I've gone

618
00:27:53,616 --> 00:27:56,616
Speaker 1: straight into that fear but my whole career is about

619
00:27:56,616 --> 00:27:59,815
Speaker 1: dealing with masses of people. But at the same time

620
00:27:59,815 --> 00:28:01,825
Speaker 1: I have this thing of, you know, looking at, you know,

621
00:28:02,055 --> 00:28:04,376
Speaker 1: seeing those pictures of the Holocaust with my father sitting

622
00:28:04,376 --> 00:28:06,656
Speaker 1: in the lounge room and going this is how horribly

623
00:28:06,656 --> 00:28:07,455
Speaker 1: wrong it can go.

624
00:28:07,756 --> 00:28:10,325
Speaker 1: And that's always been part of my operating system. That's

625
00:28:10,325 --> 00:28:14,766
Speaker 1: how I'm hardwired. um, and so, you know, much as

626
00:28:14,766 --> 00:28:17,925
Speaker 1: I could reason with it, there was that primitive part

627
00:28:17,925 --> 00:28:20,166
Speaker 1: of me that when I came out was terrified that

628
00:28:20,166 --> 00:28:22,526
Speaker 1: it would backfire somehow horribly and it must have looked

629
00:28:22,526 --> 00:28:26,366
Speaker 1: to people, um, you know, watching on the sidelines like

630
00:28:26,366 --> 00:28:29,205
Speaker 1: it was 2012, you know, lots of people would try

631
00:28:29,205 --> 00:28:32,046
Speaker 1: and say everyone knew, everyone didn't know, a sliver of

632
00:28:32,046 --> 00:28:34,406
Speaker 1: people who live on the, you know, the east coast

633
00:28:34,406 --> 00:28:36,205
Speaker 1: and in the arty farty world knew.

634
00:28:36,555 --> 00:28:39,286
Speaker 1: But the broader population really didn't have a clue that

635
00:28:39,286 --> 00:28:41,886
Speaker 1: I was gay, so it was a big thing to

636
00:28:41,886 --> 00:28:45,805
Speaker 1: still um and um the other thing is.

637
00:28:46,256 --> 00:28:48,845
Speaker 1: You know, I can't really name very many other A-list

638
00:28:48,845 --> 00:28:51,925
Speaker 1: female celebrities who are out. So I was a bit

639
00:28:51,925 --> 00:28:54,486
Speaker 1: out there on my own and it's, it's still not happening.

640
00:28:54,565 --> 00:28:57,246
Speaker 1: I mean, where are they, you know, um, so this

641
00:28:57,246 --> 00:28:59,845
Speaker 1: idea that people sort of want to rewrite history in

642
00:28:59,845 --> 00:29:01,565
Speaker 1: some ways and go, oh, it wasn't such a big

643
00:29:01,565 --> 00:29:03,565
Speaker 1: deal and everyone knew anyway and blah blah bla. It's

644
00:29:03,565 --> 00:29:06,496
Speaker 1: like no, that's not really true, you know, and I

645
00:29:06,496 --> 00:29:08,685
Speaker 1: was blazing a path in some ways in that.

646
00:29:09,175 --> 00:29:11,425
Speaker 1: There was all this speculation about how it would affect

647
00:29:11,425 --> 00:29:13,935
Speaker 1: brand Magda, whether I'd still get endorsements or

648
00:29:13,935 --> 00:29:14,175
Speaker 1: not.

649
00:29:14,496 --> 00:29:17,935
Speaker 2: You talked about long conversations with your agents before like

650
00:29:17,935 --> 00:29:19,536
Speaker 2: I spoke to my parents, I spoke and I spoke

651
00:29:19,536 --> 00:29:22,156
Speaker 2: to my agents, and I thought, yeah, Magda, what

652
00:29:22,156 --> 00:29:23,366
Speaker 1: was that's

653
00:29:23,366 --> 00:29:25,016
Speaker 2: how do you talk about that like how do

654
00:29:25,016 --> 00:29:25,975
Speaker 2: you

655
00:29:25,975 --> 00:29:26,136
Speaker 1: I

656
00:29:26,136 --> 00:29:27,366
Speaker 2: just how did that factor in.

657
00:29:27,986 --> 00:29:33,416
Speaker 1: Well, I just had to, um, really, um, acknowledge that

658
00:29:33,416 --> 00:29:39,565
Speaker 1: it could affect my livelihood. I might not get endorsements. um, uh, and, um,

659
00:29:40,335 --> 00:29:42,376
Speaker 1: I just had to do it anyway because it was time,

660
00:29:42,416 --> 00:29:44,935
Speaker 1: it was the right time for me. And I'm very

661
00:29:44,935 --> 00:29:48,016
Speaker 1: big on that, that, um, I don't, I don't, I

662
00:29:48,016 --> 00:29:50,855
Speaker 1: don't think that, I don't think anything is all good

663
00:29:50,855 --> 00:29:53,396
Speaker 1: or bad. Things are complex and

664
00:29:53,705 --> 00:29:55,916
Speaker 1: Um, coming out, you know, this idea that you come

665
00:29:55,916 --> 00:29:58,876
Speaker 1: out and it's all great, it isn't that way for everyone.

666
00:29:58,996 --> 00:30:02,626
Speaker 1: It's complex. It depends on your circumstances. It's not always safe.

667
00:30:02,835 --> 00:30:04,916
Speaker 1: It depends on your own history, where you live, all

668
00:30:04,916 --> 00:30:07,075
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And you have to, you can't

669
00:30:07,075 --> 00:30:09,555
Speaker 1: just go, yay, come out and it'll be great. As

670
00:30:09,555 --> 00:30:11,916
Speaker 1: it turns out for me, it was one of the

671
00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:14,835
Speaker 1: most empowering and healing things I've done, and in some

672
00:30:14,835 --> 00:30:17,595
Speaker 1: ways it healed that old Eastern European wound.

673
00:30:18,055 --> 00:30:21,916
Speaker 1: Because nothing terrible did happen and that part of me,

674
00:30:22,175 --> 00:30:24,536
Speaker 1: I bet you get that part, don't you, that you

675
00:30:24,536 --> 00:30:25,935
Speaker 1: know that

676
00:30:25,935 --> 00:30:27,736
Speaker 2: we've been waiting for the other shoe to dry up

677
00:30:27,736 --> 00:30:27,896
Speaker 2: your whole life totally and it

678
00:30:27,896 --> 00:30:33,215
Speaker 1: didn't, you know, and that in itself was an incredibly

679
00:30:33,215 --> 00:30:34,256
Speaker 1: healing thing for me.

680
00:30:37,266 --> 00:30:42,085
Speaker 2: It's very hard, you talk about you're the last of

681
00:30:42,085 --> 00:30:46,296
Speaker 2: the generation that are walking wounded in terms of um

682
00:30:46,906 --> 00:30:51,616
Speaker 2: people who grew up realizing they were gay before probably

683
00:30:51,666 --> 00:30:55,906
Speaker 2: the 90s. So it was legal. It's exactly, it's really

684
00:30:55,906 --> 00:30:58,896
Speaker 2: hard when you're talking to Jen I imagine to explain,

685
00:30:59,065 --> 00:31:01,626
Speaker 2: oh yeah, everyone's out and Miley Cyrus, you know, and

686
00:31:01,626 --> 00:31:04,266
Speaker 2: gender fluidity and Caitlyn Jenner on the cover of Vanity Fair.

687
00:31:04,715 --> 00:31:06,935
Speaker 2: What do you mean you were worried about it like

688
00:31:08,055 --> 00:31:11,616
Speaker 2: how just talk like I loved what you talk about

689
00:31:11,616 --> 00:31:12,605
Speaker 2: your um

690
00:31:13,516 --> 00:31:16,555
Speaker 2: Coming to terms with your sexuality and when you were

691
00:31:16,555 --> 00:31:20,116
Speaker 2: a kid and a teenager and an adolescent and and

692
00:31:20,116 --> 00:31:24,435
Speaker 2: how you know, first you noticed you had special feelings

693
00:31:24,435 --> 00:31:28,305
Speaker 2: for Marsha Brady and then you watched old movies and,

694
00:31:28,315 --> 00:31:30,996
Speaker 2: and with, you know, you didn't identify with Vivien Leigh

695
00:31:30,996 --> 00:31:33,866
Speaker 2: and Grace Kelly, you, you identified with the male leads

696
00:31:33,866 --> 00:31:36,026
Speaker 2: and that you wanted to sweep them off their feet.

697
00:31:36,276 --> 00:31:37,876
Speaker 2: I loved that idea of coming to terms with your

698
00:31:37,876 --> 00:31:41,195
Speaker 2: sexuality through popular culture because there were no

699
00:31:42,075 --> 00:31:43,636
Speaker 2: Role models in the media. No,

700
00:31:43,756 --> 00:31:46,715
Speaker 1: I'd never seen another lesbian, so there was no one

701
00:31:46,715 --> 00:31:49,516
Speaker 1: who I could, um, how was I even supposed to

702
00:31:49,516 --> 00:31:52,105
Speaker 1: know what these feelings were or understand them? I'd kind

703
00:31:52,105 --> 00:31:56,916
Speaker 1: of heard the word didn't and started to much though

704
00:31:56,916 --> 00:31:59,825
Speaker 1: not much and started to realize with mounting horror that

705
00:31:59,835 --> 00:32:03,256
Speaker 1: that was what I was. So all I had was

706
00:32:03,256 --> 00:32:05,475
Speaker 1: these feelings towards other women.

707
00:32:06,386 --> 00:32:09,185
Speaker 1: But I had never seen a lesbian, you know, as

708
00:32:09,185 --> 00:32:11,585
Speaker 1: far as I knew, I was the only one, you know,

709
00:32:11,626 --> 00:32:14,425
Speaker 1: it was terrifying and that sort of isolation.

710
00:32:14,815 --> 00:32:18,205
Speaker 1: Uh, it's, it's interesting as people are reading the book,

711
00:32:18,486 --> 00:32:20,845
Speaker 1: so many people of my generation come up to me

712
00:32:20,845 --> 00:32:23,805
Speaker 1: and go, oh my God, I went through that. There

713
00:32:23,805 --> 00:32:26,406
Speaker 1: are some women of my generation who still don't feel

714
00:32:26,406 --> 00:32:30,205
Speaker 1: comfortable with the word lesbian, you know, it's really a

715
00:32:30,205 --> 00:32:32,156
Speaker 1: lot of damage was done to us and as I say,

716
00:32:32,246 --> 00:32:34,116
Speaker 1: you know, you don't go from the discourse of shame

717
00:32:34,116 --> 00:32:36,286
Speaker 1: to the discourse of pride with nothing but a parade

718
00:32:36,286 --> 00:32:39,205
Speaker 1: to get you through. That damage is done and then

719
00:32:39,205 --> 00:32:41,445
Speaker 1: psychological work needs to be done to do the healing.

720
00:32:42,205 --> 00:32:45,325
Speaker 2: I love the scene in your book where you come

721
00:32:45,325 --> 00:32:47,366
Speaker 2: out to your parents, God, it's funny. I laughed and

722
00:32:47,366 --> 00:32:50,236
Speaker 2: I cried in the space of two pages. It was

723
00:32:50,925 --> 00:32:52,955
Speaker 2: so funny. Um, they're

724
00:32:52,955 --> 00:32:53,286
Speaker 1: gorgeous,

725
00:32:54,965 --> 00:32:56,766
Speaker 2: they're adorable and like your mom, you say that she's

726
00:32:56,766 --> 00:32:59,366
Speaker 2: the funny one in the family, you just, oh, I

727
00:32:59,366 --> 00:33:01,526
Speaker 2: just can hear her voice even though I've never actually

728
00:33:01,526 --> 00:33:02,565
Speaker 2: heard it just from your writing.

729
00:33:03,055 --> 00:33:05,016
Speaker 2: Um, and you sort of you thought you were going

730
00:33:05,016 --> 00:33:06,666
Speaker 2: to be outed by a magazine by an interview that

731
00:33:06,666 --> 00:33:10,646
Speaker 2: you've done, um, when someone had alluded to rumors and

732
00:33:10,725 --> 00:33:14,095
Speaker 2: I thought it showed such, um, incredible conviction that you

733
00:33:14,095 --> 00:33:16,526
Speaker 2: just got up and walked out of that interview, um,

734
00:33:16,616 --> 00:33:18,616
Speaker 2: none of that, oh please like me and da da da.

735
00:33:18,695 --> 00:33:20,455
Speaker 2: I was just like, you know, here's my boundary.

736
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:21,661
Speaker 2: And I'm walking out.

737
00:33:22,031 --> 00:33:24,661
Speaker 1: I was surprised I found that actually. I didn't think

738
00:33:24,661 --> 00:33:27,401
Speaker 1: that would be how I would react, and I just did.

739
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:31,791
Speaker 1: I always knew because you know, early on and I

740
00:33:31,791 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: described this in the book, I was when I was

741
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,950
Speaker 1: at uni, I was a little radical lesbian feminist. I

742
00:33:35,950 --> 00:33:38,070
Speaker 1: found my gang. I was working in a women's refuge.

743
00:33:38,526 --> 00:33:40,835
Speaker 2: You ticked every cliche. I really

744
00:33:40,835 --> 00:33:40,845
Speaker 2: did.

745
00:33:41,205 --> 00:33:46,646
Speaker 1: I know, I know. I was so happy. I was

746
00:33:46,646 --> 00:33:50,546
Speaker 1: like that, yeah, I was that cliche. Every lesbian goes through,

747
00:33:50,886 --> 00:33:53,085
Speaker 1: nearly every lesbian goes through some point when they shave

748
00:33:53,085 --> 00:33:55,046
Speaker 1: their head. We all, it's just a rite of passage.

749
00:33:55,085 --> 00:33:58,185
Speaker 1: You kind of have to do it, um, and, um,

750
00:33:58,286 --> 00:34:01,046
Speaker 1: but then I did find that too constraining and I

751
00:34:01,046 --> 00:34:03,986
Speaker 1: didn't want to be marginalized and ghettoized, and I knew,

752
00:34:04,286 --> 00:34:06,195
Speaker 1: I started to realize I wanted to be a performer.

753
00:34:06,546 --> 00:34:08,314
Speaker 1: And I knew that I wanted to work on a

754
00:34:08,315 --> 00:34:10,626
Speaker 1: large stage, you know, I wasn't one of those people

755
00:34:10,626 --> 00:34:12,815
Speaker 1: that wanted to play to 200 lesbians in a tent somewhere,

756
00:34:13,036 --> 00:34:15,475
Speaker 1: and I've got plenty of friends who do that, and

757
00:34:15,475 --> 00:34:18,596
Speaker 1: they do amazing work, but they feel that frustration that

758
00:34:18,596 --> 00:34:20,596
Speaker 1: they can't break through into the mainstream.

759
00:34:21,674 --> 00:34:23,756
Speaker 1: So I can't remember we were going with the question

760
00:34:23,756 --> 00:34:25,154
Speaker 2: so

761
00:34:25,154 --> 00:34:27,076
Speaker 2: you worked in the refuge and everything and it was

762
00:34:27,076 --> 00:34:30,026
Speaker 2: about the process of deciding to come out to your parents.

763
00:34:30,076 --> 00:34:35,714
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, so so I'd kind of come to

764
00:34:35,714 --> 00:34:38,516
Speaker 1: terms with my lesbian identity and then when I started

765
00:34:38,516 --> 00:34:39,714
Speaker 1: doing degeneration.

766
00:34:40,085 --> 00:34:42,736
Speaker 1: And it was a very straight world, lovely people, but

767
00:34:42,736 --> 00:34:45,535
Speaker 1: you know, as I describe it, compared to the polymorphously

768
00:34:45,536 --> 00:34:47,634
Speaker 1: perverse people I'd been with at was like moving in

769
00:34:47,634 --> 00:34:53,815
Speaker 1: with the Waltons. So, um yeah, so it was, um, uh, I,

770
00:34:53,955 --> 00:34:57,614
Speaker 1: I had gone through this whole process of going in

771
00:34:57,614 --> 00:34:59,495
Speaker 1: and out of the closet, as it were. Like I

772
00:34:59,496 --> 00:35:02,096
Speaker 1: was quite out when I was at uni and then

773
00:35:02,096 --> 00:35:06,846
Speaker 1: I sort of retracted and then, um, had this interview

774
00:35:06,846 --> 00:35:07,654
Speaker 1: and um.

775
00:35:08,036 --> 00:35:11,674
Speaker 1: Um, and I'd always, I always knew that no matter what,

776
00:35:11,766 --> 00:35:15,205
Speaker 1: I wouldn't lie, that I would never ever lie or

777
00:35:15,205 --> 00:35:17,885
Speaker 1: put up a front or pretend to be straight, but

778
00:35:17,884 --> 00:35:19,286
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure what I would do when I was

779
00:35:19,286 --> 00:35:21,986
Speaker 1: flat out asked, and this woman said to me, you know,

780
00:35:22,165 --> 00:35:23,526
Speaker 1: so there are rumors, and one of them is that

781
00:35:23,526 --> 00:35:25,445
Speaker 1: you're a homosexual. How do you feel about that? And

782
00:35:25,444 --> 00:35:29,475
Speaker 1: this extraordinary enfoie came over me and I just said,

783
00:35:29,565 --> 00:35:30,326
Speaker 1: I don't care.

784
00:35:30,705 --> 00:35:32,664
Speaker 1: And I was amazed. I was like, honestly, I was

785
00:35:32,665 --> 00:35:34,634
Speaker 1: like James Dean. I was just so cool. It's the

786
00:35:34,634 --> 00:35:36,905
Speaker 1: only time in my life I've been cool, but I

787
00:35:36,904 --> 00:35:38,465
Speaker 1: have to leave. Yeah, but I've got to go now,

788
00:35:38,585 --> 00:35:41,185
Speaker 1: and I just whacked up a huge boundary and went,

789
00:35:41,266 --> 00:35:44,464
Speaker 1: you know, deal with that sucker, and, um, uh, and left.

790
00:35:45,076 --> 00:35:49,625
Speaker 2: But then went and had a meltdown and decided you

791
00:35:49,625 --> 00:35:51,266
Speaker 2: had to tell your parents and your brother was there.

792
00:35:51,384 --> 00:35:53,945
Speaker 2: It's the most fabulous scene. Just just talk us through it.

793
00:35:54,105 --> 00:35:57,105
Speaker 1: Oh, so I went, my brother at that time was

794
00:35:57,105 --> 00:36:01,455
Speaker 1: a rides motorbikes. His cars and motorbikes are his thing,

795
00:36:01,665 --> 00:36:03,736
Speaker 1: and he had a beard like Zizi top down to

796
00:36:03,736 --> 00:36:06,904
Speaker 1: his his navel and a big Harley belt buckle.

797
00:36:07,614 --> 00:36:10,056
Speaker 1: And gorgeous and a plait, you know, his hair plaited

798
00:36:10,056 --> 00:36:12,296
Speaker 1: and I told him, and he was like, Yeah, all right,

799
00:36:12,404 --> 00:36:16,335
Speaker 1: you know, whatever. I told him ages ago like years ago,

800
00:36:16,375 --> 00:36:17,415
Speaker 1: but I told him I was going to tell Mom

801
00:36:17,415 --> 00:36:19,935
Speaker 1: and dad, and he said if they attack you, I'll

802
00:36:19,935 --> 00:36:21,455
Speaker 1: come with you. I said, will you come there and

803
00:36:21,455 --> 00:36:23,975
Speaker 1: be an example of someone in the family who's OK

804
00:36:23,975 --> 00:36:25,856
Speaker 1: about it and just sort of show them the way

805
00:36:25,855 --> 00:36:26,526
Speaker 2: he said a really

806
00:36:26,526 --> 00:36:26,576
Speaker 2: interesting.

807
00:36:26,710 --> 00:36:28,730
Speaker 2: thing to you, he said if they because you're famous

808
00:36:28,730 --> 00:36:30,100
Speaker 2: by that stage, and he said if they're going to

809
00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:32,981
Speaker 2: wear you as a sparkly coat to impress their friends

810
00:36:32,980 --> 00:36:36,770
Speaker 2: or something like that, then they also have to, you know,

811
00:36:36,779 --> 00:36:38,690
Speaker 2: not that this is bad, but they have to accept

812
00:36:38,690 --> 00:36:39,579
Speaker 2: every part of you.

813
00:36:39,661 --> 00:36:40,259
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

814
00:36:41,230 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: I know it was beautiful. What a great big brother

815
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,820
Speaker 1: and um so he came along and he was sitting

816
00:36:47,819 --> 00:36:50,981
Speaker 1: at the breakfast bar and it was a Sunday night. Um,

817
00:36:51,299 --> 00:36:53,701
Speaker 1: my parents, my parents live in Boronia, which is like

818
00:36:53,701 --> 00:36:55,611
Speaker 1: 30 km out of Melbourne and um.

819
00:36:55,935 --> 00:36:56,736
Speaker 1: And my mom.

820
00:36:58,786 --> 00:37:02,384
Speaker 1: Said, 000, this is a, this is an unusual time

821
00:37:02,384 --> 00:37:05,694
Speaker 1: to visit. And I said, um, um, well, I'd like

822
00:37:05,694 --> 00:37:07,555
Speaker 1: to talk about something actually because can we turn the

823
00:37:07,556 --> 00:37:10,745
Speaker 1: television off, I want to talk about something. She went, Oh, yes,

824
00:37:10,864 --> 00:37:13,346
Speaker 1: we'd love to chat. She had no idea what she

825
00:37:13,346 --> 00:37:17,674
Speaker 1: was in for. And so we turned the TV off and, um,

826
00:37:17,705 --> 00:37:19,575
Speaker 1: then she said, so what do you want to talk about?

827
00:37:19,875 --> 00:37:21,665
Speaker 1: And I said, um, well, I suppose we should talk

828
00:37:21,665 --> 00:37:24,184
Speaker 1: about the fact that, you know, I'm in my early

829
00:37:24,185 --> 00:37:26,296
Speaker 1: 30s and there's never really been mention of a boyfriend.

830
00:37:26,424 --> 00:37:26,694
Speaker 1: She went,

831
00:37:27,174 --> 00:37:30,536
Speaker 1: Oh, uh-huh, and Dad just sort of was, you know,

832
00:37:30,654 --> 00:37:32,374
Speaker 1: and it just all went from there and she kept

833
00:37:32,375 --> 00:37:35,214
Speaker 1: asking questions and dad was put up his hands defensively

834
00:37:35,214 --> 00:37:36,924
Speaker 1: and wanted to know but didn't want to know, and,

835
00:37:37,214 --> 00:37:39,614
Speaker 1: you know, but in the end they were absolutely gorgeous

836
00:37:39,614 --> 00:37:39,935
Speaker 1: about it.

837
00:37:40,165 --> 00:37:41,455
Speaker 2: Yeah she said things like, oh, there's a lot of

838
00:37:41,455 --> 00:37:42,016
Speaker 2: you around

839
00:37:42,016 --> 00:37:44,405
Speaker 1: now. Yeah she said, she said, um, she said, oh,

840
00:37:44,496 --> 00:37:46,975
Speaker 1: there's an awful lot of you around. Oh, I'm sorry,

841
00:37:47,056 --> 00:37:49,134
Speaker 1: I don't mean to be rude, that's not rude, is it?

842
00:37:49,296 --> 00:37:52,806
Speaker 1: You know, she's so cute. And, and she kept leaning going,

843
00:37:52,935 --> 00:37:54,835
Speaker 1: I'd say we're talking about my sexuality and she go, uh,

844
00:37:55,736 --> 00:37:56,605
Speaker 1: which is.

845
00:37:58,214 --> 00:37:59,815
Speaker 2: And you didn't want to use the word lesbian.

846
00:38:00,096 --> 00:38:02,256
Speaker 1: No, I thought that would have been too confronting. Yeah, yeah,

847
00:38:02,335 --> 00:38:03,174
Speaker 1: and the

848
00:38:03,174 --> 00:38:04,096
Speaker 2: project you didn't want to.

849
00:38:04,955 --> 00:38:07,915
Speaker 1: Uh, let me just define my terms here. Um, I

850
00:38:07,915 --> 00:38:10,924
Speaker 1: identify as gay myself. Now, um, when I say that,

851
00:38:11,016 --> 00:38:14,246
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is that I am absolutely not straight.

852
00:38:14,455 --> 00:38:17,645
Speaker 1: I wouldn't define myself as bisexual either. I would say

853
00:38:17,645 --> 00:38:19,815
Speaker 1: I am like gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay, gay,

854
00:38:19,855 --> 00:38:21,134
Speaker 1: a little bit not gay, gay, gay, gay gay.

855
00:38:22,315 --> 00:38:25,864
Speaker 1: No, well, also because my sexuality is a little bit complicated.

856
00:38:26,114 --> 00:38:31,596
Speaker 1: I'm not a hungji, you know, 100% yeah well there's

857
00:38:31,596 --> 00:38:33,256
Speaker 1: a lot of us who are like that. There you

858
00:38:33,256 --> 00:38:35,634
Speaker 1: know there's the Kinsey scale of the 1 to 6,

859
00:38:36,036 --> 00:38:38,276
Speaker 1: those who are completely heterosexual and those who are completely gay,

860
00:38:38,395 --> 00:38:40,874
Speaker 1: and I'm somewhere, you know, pretty far up the gay

861
00:38:40,875 --> 00:38:41,875
Speaker 1: end but not totally.

862
00:38:42,036 --> 00:38:44,875
Speaker 2: There's a bit of a stampede into that section, isn't

863
00:38:44,875 --> 00:38:48,516
Speaker 2: really like everyone wants to like fall over each other now,

864
00:38:48,556 --> 00:38:48,874
Speaker 2: which is

865
00:38:49,076 --> 00:38:53,315
Speaker 2: Hilarious probably for for your generation and my generation who

866
00:38:53,315 --> 00:38:55,756
Speaker 2: would have grown up hiding it. Now everyone's like, you know,

867
00:38:55,796 --> 00:38:58,236
Speaker 2: I'm just a bit fluid and I'm not gay, I'm

868
00:38:58,236 --> 00:39:00,114
Speaker 2: just having a relationship with a woman, you know,

869
00:39:01,326 --> 00:39:03,276
Speaker 1: I hear that Stewart's very strong on that line,

870
00:39:03,875 --> 00:39:06,194
Speaker 2: and now they're not even just gay, they're gender fluid,

871
00:39:06,236 --> 00:39:08,874
Speaker 2: so maybe I'm not even a woman Cyrus. I could

872
00:39:08,875 --> 00:39:09,835
Speaker 2: be also sometimes a

873
00:39:09,835 --> 00:39:12,674
Speaker 1: boy I think um I think Ruby Rose takes that

874
00:39:12,674 --> 00:39:13,475
Speaker 1: line a little bit too,

875
00:39:14,114 --> 00:39:15,715
Speaker 2: so it's kind of like um.

876
00:39:16,246 --> 00:39:20,375
Speaker 2: You know, being a boring old lesbian is just really

877
00:39:20,375 --> 00:39:21,346
Speaker 2: conservative

878
00:39:21,346 --> 00:39:21,905
Speaker 2: in a way it is.

879
00:39:22,526 --> 00:39:26,394
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I know exactly, but that was why in

880
00:39:26,395 --> 00:39:28,556
Speaker 1: some ways it was easier for me to come out

881
00:39:28,556 --> 00:39:32,516
Speaker 1: in 2012 because that conversation was around. Had I come

882
00:39:32,516 --> 00:39:35,855
Speaker 1: out earlier, I would have been absolutely labeled as a lesbian.

883
00:39:35,955 --> 00:39:38,556
Speaker 1: I would have had to, you know, even some.

884
00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:41,109
Speaker 1: who were advising me were saying don't go there, don't

885
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:43,768
Speaker 1: complicate it, just say you're gay. You don't want to

886
00:39:43,768 --> 00:39:47,109
Speaker 1: because what's her name, the redhead from Sex and the

887
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:52,238
Speaker 2: City's got into all sorts

888
00:39:52,238 --> 00:39:55,488
Speaker 1: of exactly she really did and so someone was advising

889
00:39:55,488 --> 00:39:57,747
Speaker 1: me saying don't go there, you'll get a shit storm

890
00:39:57,748 --> 00:39:59,788
Speaker 1: come down on you, and I was like, and I

891
00:39:59,788 --> 00:40:01,027
Speaker 1: felt so backfooted.

892
00:40:01,111 --> 00:40:03,580
Speaker 1: Then and I was like, no, the whole point of

893
00:40:03,580 --> 00:40:05,661
Speaker 1: coming out is so I can be my real self,

894
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:11,252
Speaker 1: and that's you put yourself into a different box that exactly, exactly,

895
00:40:11,821 --> 00:40:13,142
Speaker 1: and that was when I came up with the gay

896
00:40:13,142 --> 00:40:16,191
Speaker 1: ga gay little bit which I just thought a fabulous.

897
00:40:16,781 --> 00:40:19,142
Speaker 1: Oh thanks, and it just expresses who I am, what

898
00:40:19,142 --> 00:40:21,861
Speaker 1: my experience has been like, and it was funny, you know,

899
00:40:22,060 --> 00:40:24,181
Speaker 1: and not too serious about it. And

900
00:40:24,181 --> 00:40:25,261
Speaker 2: were you nervous that night?

901
00:40:25,654 --> 00:40:29,746
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was. I was really nervous, yeah, because I

902
00:40:29,746 --> 00:40:33,486
Speaker 1: felt I knew that there were very, that I was

903
00:40:33,486 --> 00:40:37,085
Speaker 1: probably the first one of the first A-list celebrities who

904
00:40:37,085 --> 00:40:40,405
Speaker 1: had who's been in, you know, a household name who

905
00:40:40,404 --> 00:40:43,915
Speaker 1: had this opportunity to speak on behalf of so many

906
00:40:44,125 --> 00:40:46,075
Speaker 1: millions of Australians.

907
00:40:46,556 --> 00:40:50,715
Speaker 1: And that most of most of the LGBTQI people never

908
00:40:50,714 --> 00:40:53,674
Speaker 1: get that opportunity to express what it's like, what it

909
00:40:53,674 --> 00:40:56,435
Speaker 1: feels like, and what we're up against, and to try

910
00:40:56,435 --> 00:40:59,465
Speaker 1: and advance the cause of marriage equality. So I felt

911
00:40:59,464 --> 00:41:02,576
Speaker 1: a huge responsibility because I didn't want to just come out,

912
00:41:02,596 --> 00:41:04,395
Speaker 1: it wasn't just a question of coming out for myself.

913
00:41:04,435 --> 00:41:06,585
Speaker 1: It was I really wanted to be a part

914
00:41:06,585 --> 00:41:08,675
Speaker 2: of that and that's why you chose that time. I

915
00:41:08,674 --> 00:41:10,225
Speaker 2: wanted to read the statement that

916
00:41:10,451 --> 00:41:14,181
Speaker 2: Um, you came out with, you said we pay taxes,

917
00:41:14,339 --> 00:41:16,499
Speaker 2: fight wars for this country, nurse you when you are sick,

918
00:41:16,651 --> 00:41:19,180
Speaker 2: make you laugh, sing and dance for you, play netball

919
00:41:19,181 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: for you, star in your movies, cook your meals, decorate

920
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,611
Speaker 2: your store windows, and chances are gay people designed whatever

921
00:41:24,611 --> 00:41:27,940
Speaker 2: it is you're wearing. All Australians, including gay Australians should

922
00:41:27,940 --> 00:41:30,981
Speaker 2: have exactly the same rights, including the right to love, marry,

923
00:41:31,060 --> 00:41:33,930
Speaker 2: and take care of our partners. So,

924
00:41:34,855 --> 00:41:36,296
Speaker 2: How did you write that? How did you come up

925
00:41:36,296 --> 00:41:39,046
Speaker 2: with that statement and what was behind it for you?

926
00:41:39,276 --> 00:41:39,286
Speaker 1: Um,

927
00:41:40,056 --> 00:41:43,894
Speaker 1: well, I kind of wanted to, you know, ease into

928
00:41:43,895 --> 00:41:46,856
Speaker 1: it the whole thing and, and kind of get people's

929
00:41:46,855 --> 00:41:50,536
Speaker 1: attention because, um, you know, there's no point if you're

930
00:41:50,536 --> 00:41:53,695
Speaker 1: doing something like that for a cause, you, you, you

931
00:41:53,694 --> 00:41:56,614
Speaker 1: want people to be listening, otherwise fall on deaf ears

932
00:41:56,614 --> 00:41:59,654
Speaker 1: and there's no use. So, um, we had this whole

933
00:41:59,654 --> 00:42:01,455
Speaker 1: kind of strategy going and it was sort of hilarious.

934
00:42:01,739 --> 00:42:03,580
Speaker 1: It was like the war room, you know, there

935
00:42:03,580 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: was Alex Greenwich from Marriage equality, Karen Phelps and Jackie

936
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 2: and Jackie Stoker

937
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,140
Speaker 1: Phelps, um, and another friend of mine, Jo Jarvis, who

938
00:42:13,141 --> 00:42:14,460
Speaker 1: helped out as well, she was fantastic

939
00:42:14,460 --> 00:42:17,060
Speaker 2: and you were saying Karen's Karen had been encouraging you

940
00:42:17,060 --> 00:42:18,489
Speaker 2: to come out for a long time. Yeah,

941
00:42:18,661 --> 00:42:20,250
Speaker 1: she had because she knew.

942
00:42:20,776 --> 00:42:27,576
Speaker 1: Um, like their journey was pretty rocky. Like they were

943
00:42:27,576 --> 00:42:28,714
Speaker 1: out and they had a hard time really were, but

944
00:42:28,714 --> 00:42:32,565
Speaker 1: she also knew how amazing it feels afterwards. So

945
00:42:32,565 --> 00:42:32,725
Speaker 2: she

946
00:42:32,725 --> 00:42:34,365
Speaker 2: wanted you to come out not for the sake of

947
00:42:34,364 --> 00:42:35,766
Speaker 2: the movement but for you,

948
00:42:35,924 --> 00:42:38,204
Speaker 1: yeah, yeah, she wanted me to feel the freedom that

949
00:42:38,205 --> 00:42:40,766
Speaker 1: she and Jackie felt, which was, you know, so lovely

950
00:42:40,766 --> 00:42:44,424
Speaker 1: of her. She's a great friend, good, good woman, really

951
00:42:44,424 --> 00:42:44,884
Speaker 1: good woman.

952
00:42:45,455 --> 00:42:48,215
Speaker 1: Um, and, um, so we had, we, you know, we'd

953
00:42:48,214 --> 00:42:50,536
Speaker 1: have these hilarious meetings. It was so fun, you know,

954
00:42:50,736 --> 00:42:54,605
Speaker 1: planning it war room and talking about what I'd say, and,

955
00:42:54,685 --> 00:42:57,215
Speaker 1: and then I just really had to find my own

956
00:42:57,214 --> 00:42:59,655
Speaker 1: language around it and, and feel as comfortable with it

957
00:42:59,654 --> 00:43:02,455
Speaker 1: and own it myself, um, because if I'm, if I

958
00:43:02,455 --> 00:43:07,056
Speaker 1: feel I'm parroting, um, someone else's agenda or a cause,

959
00:43:07,174 --> 00:43:09,256
Speaker 1: even though I was speaking on behalf of the cause, I, I,

960
00:43:09,335 --> 00:43:11,495
Speaker 1: I don't do that very well, um.

961
00:43:11,736 --> 00:43:13,395
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to really feel it.

962
00:43:13,766 --> 00:43:16,046
Speaker 2: And you um you talked about when you lost the

963
00:43:16,046 --> 00:43:18,645
Speaker 2: weight you were worried that you know people put all

964
00:43:18,645 --> 00:43:20,685
Speaker 2: their own baggage onto it and it's like you don't

965
00:43:20,685 --> 00:43:22,685
Speaker 2: lose too much, you still want to be funny and

966
00:43:22,685 --> 00:43:25,885
Speaker 2: you suddenly started to wonder if you'd still be able to,

967
00:43:25,915 --> 00:43:28,885
Speaker 2: as you put it so beautifully, feel the vibration of

968
00:43:28,884 --> 00:43:31,605
Speaker 2: Sharon who you were playing at that time in Kath

969
00:43:31,605 --> 00:43:32,086
Speaker 2: and Kim.

970
00:43:32,786 --> 00:43:36,796
Speaker 2: And did it make you feel different in terms of

971
00:43:36,884 --> 00:43:38,634
Speaker 2: of your comedy? Yeah,

972
00:43:38,806 --> 00:43:42,565
Speaker 1: it did. It actually really did because um it's not

973
00:43:42,565 --> 00:43:44,925
Speaker 1: that I'm saying that you you um you have to

974
00:43:44,924 --> 00:43:47,486
Speaker 1: be unattractive to be funny. I'm not playing into that thing.

975
00:43:48,006 --> 00:43:50,964
Speaker 1: There are lots of beautiful women who are hilarious, but

976
00:43:50,964 --> 00:43:54,365
Speaker 1: my shtick was very much around a particular physical shape

977
00:43:54,364 --> 00:43:56,806
Speaker 1: in the same way that John Cleese has that stick

978
00:43:56,806 --> 00:44:00,326
Speaker 1: insect body and he makes, that's his shtick. Being overweight

979
00:44:00,326 --> 00:44:03,645
Speaker 1: and using my body in a particular way was part

980
00:44:03,645 --> 00:44:06,364
Speaker 1: of really how I, that was a big part of

981
00:44:06,364 --> 00:44:08,486
Speaker 1: what my comedy persona was.

982
00:44:09,046 --> 00:44:12,556
Speaker 1: And so, um, and you know, do you remember, um,

983
00:44:12,625 --> 00:44:14,875
Speaker 1: the Mary Tyler Moore Show and her friend Rhonda lost

984
00:44:14,875 --> 00:44:16,846
Speaker 1: all the weight and just it all went shit, you know,

985
00:44:17,964 --> 00:44:19,915
Speaker 1: there were things like that where it was just like,

986
00:44:20,364 --> 00:44:20,585
Speaker 1: you know,

987
00:44:20,884 --> 00:44:22,756
Speaker 2: male comedians, same thing, yeah,

988
00:44:22,975 --> 00:44:25,615
Speaker 1: yeah, it, it's, it's actually not an easy thing.

989
00:44:25,799 --> 00:44:28,901
Speaker 1: To negotiate. People do see you in a different way.

990
00:44:28,980 --> 00:44:32,770
Speaker 1: They take you, they take you a little bit more seriously. Even,

991
00:44:32,779 --> 00:44:38,529
Speaker 1: even when you're, you know, not, um, trying to be serious,

992
00:44:38,739 --> 00:44:41,499
Speaker 1: it just shifts everything. It really does shift the vibration

993
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:43,980
Speaker 1: quite significantly. um, so.

994
00:44:44,355 --> 00:44:46,785
Speaker 1: You know that thing of, you know, even with this book,

995
00:44:46,975 --> 00:44:49,175
Speaker 1: it's interesting that some people just really want it to

996
00:44:49,174 --> 00:44:51,694
Speaker 1: be about Sharon Strzelecki. They don't want to know about

997
00:44:51,694 --> 00:44:53,695
Speaker 1: the darker side of things, even though once they read

998
00:44:53,694 --> 00:44:56,006
Speaker 1: the book they love it, but before they come to it,

999
00:44:56,016 --> 00:44:58,815
Speaker 1: they they have a perception of me that they really

1000
00:44:58,815 --> 00:44:59,856
Speaker 1: want to maintain.

1001
00:45:00,464 --> 00:45:02,634
Speaker 2: But how much control did you have over the cover?

1002
00:45:02,705 --> 00:45:04,475
Speaker 2: It's one of my, I just love it. It's just

1003
00:45:04,475 --> 00:45:07,586
Speaker 2: so unadorned and not

1004
00:45:07,875 --> 00:45:08,435
Speaker 2: like

1005
00:45:08,435 --> 00:45:09,915
Speaker 1: it ain't a celebrity photos.

1006
00:45:10,194 --> 00:45:13,026
Speaker 2: No, I love it and it's everything about the book,

1007
00:45:13,276 --> 00:45:15,914
Speaker 1: right? Oh well, funnily enough, I didn't want my picture

1008
00:45:15,915 --> 00:45:16,114
Speaker 1: to be.

1009
00:45:16,266 --> 00:45:20,296
Speaker 1: I would have loved to have loved that. That was

1010
00:45:20,296 --> 00:45:31,076
Speaker 1: never going to happen. Little did I know. I was thinking, yeah,

1011
00:45:31,085 --> 00:45:31,556
Speaker 1: they're going to let me do that should be on

1012
00:45:31,556 --> 00:45:31,816
Speaker 1: the cover.

1013
00:45:32,596 --> 00:45:34,236
Speaker 1: I wanted to have just like a white cover with

1014
00:45:34,236 --> 00:45:36,975
Speaker 1: my name and, but they, they, they just said no,

1015
00:45:36,996 --> 00:45:40,875
Speaker 1: that doesn't work for us. Um, but, um, um, yeah,

1016
00:45:41,036 --> 00:45:45,555
Speaker 1: I really very much wanted to not have a celebrity,

1017
00:45:45,835 --> 00:45:48,944
Speaker 1: it's not a celebrity memoir, and I wanted it to

1018
00:45:48,944 --> 00:45:51,955
Speaker 1: register as that. And, and as I said before, this book,

1019
00:45:52,076 --> 00:45:56,185
Speaker 1: it's really the real me, you know, and, um, you know,

1020
00:45:56,634 --> 00:45:58,236
Speaker 1: at the age of 54, if you can't be the

1021
00:45:58,236 --> 00:45:59,955
Speaker 1: real you, when can you be really.

1022
00:46:00,475 --> 00:46:06,185
Speaker 2: Congratulations, Magda, it's an absolute triumph. Thank you. It's just,

1023
00:46:06,395 --> 00:46:12,675
Speaker 2: it's beautiful, it's funny, it's moving, it's gripping, um, and, uh, yeah,

1024
00:46:12,796 --> 00:46:16,026
Speaker 2: I'm just so thrilled for you that you've been able

1025
00:46:16,026 --> 00:46:20,036
Speaker 2: to um produce such an extraordinary thing because writing is

1026
00:46:20,036 --> 00:46:20,705
Speaker 1: hard,

1027
00:46:22,036 --> 00:46:24,756
Speaker 2: is can be hard and you've just made it seem

1028
00:46:24,756 --> 00:46:26,965
Speaker 2: so effortless and you are just.

1029
00:46:27,214 --> 00:46:28,315
Speaker 2: An inspiration.

1030
00:46:28,475 --> 00:46:32,364
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. Well, you too, you too. Thank you.

1031
00:46:32,486 --> 00:46:33,154
Speaker 2: Congrats.

1032
00:46:33,326 --> 00:46:34,076
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1033
00:46:35,236 --> 00:46:38,155
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to No Filter. Subscribe on iTunes so

1034
00:46:38,154 --> 00:46:40,585
Speaker 2: you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops.

1035
00:46:40,796 --> 00:46:43,444
Speaker 2: This show is hosted by me, Mia Freedman, and produced

1036
00:46:43,444 --> 00:46:46,635
Speaker 2: by Ariza Ratliff for the Mamma Mia Podcast Network. You

1037
00:46:46,634 --> 00:46:48,355
Speaker 2: can find out more about all our shows on the

1038
00:46:48,355 --> 00:46:52,296
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia Podcast Network's Facebook page or on my Facebook page,

1039
00:46:52,516 --> 00:46:53,276
Speaker 2: Mia Freedman.

1040
00:46:54,424 --> 00:46:57,705
Speaker 2: Contact us, suggest an interview subject, leave feedback or just

1041
00:46:57,705 --> 00:47:00,575
Speaker 2: show us your love via Twitter at Mamma Mia podcast,

1042
00:47:00,746 --> 00:47:04,185
Speaker 2: or by emailing podcast at MammaMia.com.au.