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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast. I've been to

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Speaker 1: go pick up a check off a builder and went

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Speaker 1: and cashed it and went into a venue and it

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Speaker 1: was gone in an hour. So then I sat there

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Speaker 1: just pregnant, crying, trying to figure out how to take

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Speaker 1: my life but not harm my child.

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Speaker 2: Today's story is about something we don't talk about nearly

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Speaker 2: enough in Australia, even though it's everywhere in our suburbs,

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Speaker 2: in our pubs, in our families. Australia has more poker

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Speaker 2: machines per capita than anywhere else in the whole world.

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Speaker 2: We lose more money to gambling than any other nation,

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Speaker 2: and yet the people harmed by are often invisible. One

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Speaker 2: of those people was Kate's Seldia. Kate struggled with a

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Speaker 2: hidden poker machine addiction that began at eighteen and escalated

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Speaker 2: until she had lost half a million dollars and was

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Speaker 2: overwhelmed by debt, shame, and despair while raising six children.

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Speaker 2: She was trapped in a cycle she couldn't see a

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Speaker 2: way out of, and what began as a moment of

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Speaker 2: escape slowly consumed twelve years of her life. Today, Kate

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Speaker 2: tells the story she once carried alone, the nights she

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Speaker 2: spent feeding money into a machine she couldn't walk away from,

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Speaker 2: the crushing fear of how she would pay for groceries,

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Speaker 2: the guilt, the secrecy, the isolation, and the moment she

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Speaker 2: hit rock bottom while pregnant with her sixth child, and

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Speaker 2: then how she rebuilt. Gambling addiction touches thousands of lives,

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Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands, but it's rarely spoken about with honesty

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Speaker 2: or compassion, and the face of it isn't always who

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Speaker 2: you'd expect. This conversation is heartbreaking, it's hopeful, and it's essential.

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Speaker 2: This is Kate'sceldia. Welcome to no Filter. I'm Kate Langebrook.

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Speaker 2: There's no excuse for either of us forgetting each other's names.

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Speaker 1: Very true. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm very happy that we have you here today

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Speaker 2: for a.

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Speaker 1: Number of reasons.

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Speaker 2: One that I think this is probably one of the

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Speaker 2: most important issues that Australians are really not facing, and

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Speaker 2: if they are, like you, they're facing it in silence,

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Speaker 2: I guess to a large extent. And secondly, I'm glad

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Speaker 2: you're here because it was not always the case that

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Speaker 2: you were going to be here. And that was the

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Speaker 2: extremity of your experience.

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Speaker 1: And it's the reality for so many Australians. They're just

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Speaker 1: hanging on because there is no help at this point

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Speaker 1: in time.

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Speaker 2: So we're talking about gambling, and as you have said

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Speaker 2: many times, no one wakes up and goes ge today.

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Speaker 2: I want to be a problem gambler. I want to

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Speaker 2: have a gambling addiction. No, no child is a gambler.

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Speaker 2: And yet when you first came to it, you were eighteen,

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Speaker 2: so barely out of childhood really, and you were seduced

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Speaker 2: by the Pokeys. How did that come about?

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Speaker 1: My boyfriend introduced me to them. He was two years

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Speaker 1: older than me, so he'd already been in in that

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Speaker 1: club environment, hanging out there with his mates, playing pool

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Speaker 1: and poker. Machines were part of that deal. Geographically, where

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Speaker 1: were you at that time in Sydney? And ironically, the

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Speaker 1: first venue I went into was the one I walked

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Speaker 1: past to go to school every day.

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Speaker 2: Oh and when you were at school, had you even

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Speaker 2: noticed it?

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Speaker 1: No? It was an RSL club, Like, why would I

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Speaker 1: want to go there? It just was really not where

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Speaker 1: I thought I would ever experience harm, that's for sure.

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Speaker 2: And also as a child. Then like on your way

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Speaker 2: to school, what was that Kate? Like, where was she going?

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Speaker 2: What was her personality?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just really adventurous and I was Adventurers at the time.

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Speaker 1: I'd been a girl ride and then Scouts because of

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Speaker 1: the boys.

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Speaker 2: Oh, because venturers have boys had boys. Oh okay, so

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Speaker 2: you were not wasting your time with girl guys.

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Speaker 1: And then so.

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Speaker 2: You go to the club this night with your boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: first boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and it's a social thing. Yes. Well I

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Speaker 1: went there to go hang out with him and his

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Speaker 1: friends and didn't think that gambling would be part of

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Speaker 1: that evening at all. And he made his way over

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Speaker 1: to the machines and said, oh, yeah, you just sit

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Speaker 1: here twenty dollars in and pressed this button. He gave

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Speaker 1: you the twenty. I think I had my own money

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Speaker 1: at that point. And yeah, a couple of presses in

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Speaker 1: I won like a million, thousand dollars and like my

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Speaker 1: heart was beating out of my chest and I, you know,

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Speaker 1: nothing like that had never happened to me before, How

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Speaker 1: could it?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: And then this guy came over because I hit like

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Speaker 1: collect my hand was like shaking, and he came over

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Speaker 1: with a clipboard and this word of cash, like underneath

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Speaker 1: the clipboard and I had to sign, you know, on

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Speaker 1: this point, and he has me this cash, and he's

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Speaker 1: saying things to me like you're really good at this.

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Speaker 1: Oh you must be you know, really lucky, and all

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Speaker 1: of you.

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Speaker 2: Know, even you saying this. Now, I'm getting this flutter

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Speaker 2: of well, the flutter. Let's have a flutter. Yeah, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's so exciting. That's beyond imagining and beginner's luck.

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Speaker 1: I think beginner's misfortune really, of course, knowing what you

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Speaker 1: know now, but they're all those, you know, the little

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Speaker 1: sayings that we live by, particularly in Australia. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh you My grandma always used to say to me,

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Speaker 1: you're tinny Kate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, tinny yeah, and were you tinny like you'd always

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Speaker 2: been lucky then?

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Speaker 1: Well in what regards I don't thinking that was one

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Speaker 1: of her sayings, you know, she'd just always say, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're tinny Kate. So you proved not to be that tiny, No,

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Speaker 1: not long term. So you went come home after that

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Speaker 1: first night, you've got a thousand bucks.

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Speaker 2: You come home, do you go back to your boyfriend's house? Like,

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Speaker 2: where were you in the scheme of things?

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Speaker 1: I came home and you know, squirreled away this money.

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Speaker 1: Told your parents. I think, yeah, I did, yea, and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because everyone shares the euphoria gambler.

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Speaker 1: You don't say of a winning gambler.

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Speaker 2: It's like at the races, or you know, even at

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Speaker 2: the toes someone has a big collect it's like everyone's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's amazing. You never hear about the losses. No, no,

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Speaker 2: And when was the next time you went back?

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Speaker 1: Probably a few days later and.

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Speaker 2: With your boyfriend again here with the group.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But what happened then was when I was just

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Speaker 1: about my normal life, going to clubs, pubs, nightclubs with

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Speaker 1: my friends. Then suddenly I'm hearing them, I'm seeing them.

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Speaker 1: I'm noticing them now on every street corner where I

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Speaker 1: previously was not attuned to notice them, right, And so

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Speaker 1: it seemed like every single social space I went into,

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Speaker 1: especially in Sydney, they were there and calling you yeah

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Speaker 1: with promise. Just the way it's designed is there's banks

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Speaker 1: of them, so you're hearing the sounds of other people,

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Speaker 1: you know, winning air quotes, because that's that reinforces it,

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Speaker 1: so your body gets activated, even if it's not happening

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 2: Right, So your dopamine receptors are now attuned to the

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Speaker 2: ding and the dang of the bells and the lights

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Speaker 2: and the whistles.

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Speaker 1: And the you know, the sound. There's no negative sounds

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Speaker 1: in poker machines. It's only positive reinforcement, even if you lose.

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Speaker 1: So they have this thing called is disguised as wins.

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Speaker 1: So say you bet five dollars and the lights and

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Speaker 1: sounds go off like you won, but it's only two dollars,

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Speaker 1: so it actually celebrates you losing three dollars in a

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Speaker 1: way that's registered in your brain as a win. That's

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Speaker 1: how diabolical they are. So but at this point you

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Speaker 1: don't know they diaball. Oh, I don't know anything. What

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Speaker 1: do you know? All I know is I put twenty

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Speaker 1: dollars in and won hundreds of dollars and did that happen? Again, Yes,

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Speaker 1: it did happen. It did, and that was enough reinforcement

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Speaker 1: to for my brain to think A plus bhqi C.

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Speaker 1: And so every time I went with an expectation of

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Speaker 1: this is going to happen, and then if it didn't,

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Speaker 1: then you start thinking, oh, well I needed to have

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Speaker 1: more money, or I needed a different machine, or a

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Speaker 1: different machine or you know, we are meaning making beings

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Speaker 1: and you're spending so much energy trying to make sense

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Speaker 1: of this engagement that this machine has already worked out.

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Speaker 1: Like you don't know what you're up against. And that's

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Speaker 1: part of the spell that happens. You know, you just

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Speaker 1: keep then being conditioned to the.

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Speaker 2: Next press, the next press. And how was your immersion

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Speaker 2: then was it? So from those first couple of times

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Speaker 2: were you working at that point?

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Speaker 1: I was? And so I was earning about fifteen hundred

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Speaker 1: dollars a month as a receptionist at an accounting firm.

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Speaker 1: And uh oh no, thankfully I had a zero just

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Speaker 1: the receptionist. I didn't have any access to money, thank goodness,

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Speaker 1: because you do see those stories absolutely they are unfortunately

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Speaker 1: a number of women in prison because of access to

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Speaker 1: money for jobs.

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Speaker 2: So you've got this job, so you've got this stability. Yes,

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Speaker 2: being a receptionist, you've got to be a bright and

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Speaker 2: open person, well organized person, in control of the whole

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Speaker 2: front desk. And the first impression that people get what

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Speaker 2: was your the state of your life in relation to

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Speaker 2: the pokies.

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Speaker 1: As that progressed it, it had an impact that I

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Speaker 1: couldn't articulate at the time. I started to just really

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Speaker 1: be distracted and overwhelmed by things that I previously would

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Speaker 1: be fine managing. But what I noticed most was my

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Speaker 1: friends were planning like overseas trips or going to concerts

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Speaker 1: and things like that that I just couldn't do. I

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Speaker 1: was living at home with my mum and dad, so

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Speaker 1: I still had a roof over my head. I had

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Speaker 1: food on the table, but I had no money and

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Speaker 1: would have been facing homelessness if I'd have been living

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Speaker 1: out of home.

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Speaker 2: And still, so what you still had your boyfriend? Yes,

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Speaker 2: had he noticed anything?

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Speaker 1: He was doing it alongside me to the same extent

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Speaker 1: as you or possibly, But then it really became a

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Speaker 1: solo activity, right, And that is the point at which

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Speaker 1: like you're in the mouth of the wolf, isn't it? Definitely?

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Speaker 2: And always that isolation. Yeah, is then where the monster

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Speaker 2: can grow. Yeah, that's where shame really takes.

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Speaker 1: Might and how far in what period of time are

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Speaker 1: we talking this from that first encounter to you know,

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Speaker 1: me really being in crisis was a couple of months. Wow,

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Speaker 1: And then that just progressed for the next year and

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Speaker 1: then I met my husband and I moved to Canberra.

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Speaker 1: So you met Phil? I met Phil? And where did

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Speaker 1: you two meet? Not at the post not No, he

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Speaker 1: was doing a year of mission actually, ah, and he

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Speaker 1: like a Mormon, no religious, yeah, yeah, Catholic and he

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Speaker 1: he was on a team with my cousin, and my

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Speaker 1: cousin invited him over to our family house for dinner.

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Speaker 1: And I was in such a bad state at that

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Speaker 1: time that my mum said, oh, you know, your cousin's

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Speaker 1: coming over with the boys, and I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not coming home. So I stayed in the city

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Speaker 1: that night and then ran out of money, came home,

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Speaker 1: walked in the back door and they were all sitting there,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, oh, my gosh, these young guys are

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Speaker 1: so alive. They are so connected and wholson, wholesome and

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Speaker 1: happy and joyful, and my life was none of those

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Speaker 1: things at that point. And when they were leaving, they

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Speaker 1: were like, Oh, we're having this, you know, weekend away

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Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks. Do you want to come?

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Speaker 1: And I was like yes, and that yes just kind

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Speaker 1: of flew out of me at that point because I

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Speaker 1: was just so broken. And I went to this camp

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Speaker 1: and had a really great time and chatted to Feel

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Speaker 1: at that camp and I thought, gee, you're a nice guy.

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Speaker 1: Why can't I meet a nice guy like you? And

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Speaker 1: after that weekend I broke up with my boyfriend and

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Speaker 1: at the end of the year Phil and I started

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Speaker 1: going out and we were married ten eleven months later.

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Speaker 1: So it was a whirlwind of you know, my life

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Speaker 1: changed trajectory very quickly, and I thought I'd left all

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Speaker 1: of that behind. So you moved to Canberra.

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Speaker 2: I moved to Canberra, And of course, because I do

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Speaker 2: think it's such a strong instinct, well that you obviously

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Speaker 2: have four and that we all have, I think, for

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Speaker 2: self preservation and survival, and you needed rescuing, and that

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Speaker 2: the core of you responded to exactly what you thought

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Speaker 2: was being dissipated from your own essence. After the break,

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Speaker 2: Kate talks about the seemingly harmless mother's group gathering that

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Speaker 2: triggered her return to gambling and how long did that

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Speaker 2: last in Canberra?

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Speaker 1: The wholesomeness for the wholesomeness, well, it lasted eighteen months

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Speaker 1: until after we had our firstborn and I was pregnant

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Speaker 1: with our second Wow, and the mother's group that we

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Speaker 1: were meeting was meeting in the local community center, and

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Speaker 1: then they said, oh, we've got a new mother's group

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Speaker 1: that's about to start. You're going to have to move elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: So one of the moms said, we can meet at

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Speaker 1: the club. And as soon as I walked in, even

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Speaker 1: though I thought, you know, that's all behind me and

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Speaker 1: you had babe in arms. Yes, I didn't gamble that day, connected,

250
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Speaker 1: but it retriggered my body and mind in a way

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Speaker 1: that I was not prepared for.

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Speaker 2: Was it like when you are going to meet a

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Speaker 2: lover and your stomach sort of flips.

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Speaker 1: Was it that? Yeah? I would say that would be

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Speaker 1: the closest thing to describe what happens. But just it

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Speaker 1: started that preoccupation. And we were building our own home

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Speaker 1: at the time or about too, and running our own business,

258
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Speaker 1: you know, had a child. We were living with my

259
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Speaker 1: in laws, so it was a very stressful time. And

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Speaker 1: this was twenty three. Yeah, rush, and that we had

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Speaker 1: money in the account to start building the house.

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Speaker 2: And did Phil know that you gambled in the past?

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Speaker 2: Had that ever come up?

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Speaker 1: I did tell him that that weekend that we went away,

265
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Speaker 1: I said, you know, my life is just so not great.

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Speaker 1: I really struggling with gambling, and so he knew and

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Speaker 1: he shared with me things he struggled with and you

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Speaker 1: know that was so Yeah, we both thought those things

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Speaker 1: were in the past, you know, and we were building

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Speaker 1: this bright new future and that wasn't what happened next.

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Speaker 2: So you're now your mother's groups, now at the club.

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Speaker 2: You've got this mortgage account for your new house that

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Speaker 2: you're building.

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Speaker 1: What happens so that a plus vehicle? Ce Do you

275
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Speaker 1: remember that time you put twenty dollars in and you

276
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Speaker 1: won this much? Well, you know, you could get the

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00:20:48,639 --> 00:20:55,999
Speaker 1: house built faster and data and I started with one

278
00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 1: hundred and then two hundred, then one thousand, then ten thousand,

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Speaker 1: thirty thousand in a month.

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Speaker 2: When you say you started, how did you start? Like? When?

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Speaker 2: How could you like find the time? When did the

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Speaker 2: opportunity present? Did you create the opportunity it?

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Speaker 1: I think I was getting like things for the.

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Speaker 2: House, so in my era running around yeah yeah, And

285
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Speaker 2: can you remember what you were thinking?

286
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Speaker 1: I was just stuck in here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but obviously you had planned it at some level

288
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Speaker 2: all along.

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Speaker 1: Were you tricking yourself? I think probably? It. It seemed

290
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Speaker 1: like this overwhelming urge because what what we ignore doesn't

291
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Speaker 1: just go away. It gained strength. Yes. Yeah. And I

292
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:38,959
Speaker 1: had never received any treatment or any understanding, any acknowledgment

293
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Speaker 1: of what I had encountered in that experience of gambling.

294
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Speaker 1: So just having a period away from it wasn't resolving it.

295
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Speaker 1: It was it still had left a mark on my

296
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Speaker 1: self esteem, on my on my biology. Yes, you know,

297
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Speaker 1: and that your pathways had.

298
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Speaker 2: Been my brain, Yes, had been altered, which we know

299
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 2: that they're designed to do. It's like the phones.

300
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Speaker 1: We all know.

301
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Speaker 2: And when I say this is a very important conversation,

302
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 2: it's because anyone who has a phone now knows how

303
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: addiction works. Yes, even if they haven't had experiences experience

304
00:23:27,679 --> 00:23:30,999
Speaker 2: with any of the other addictions. Yes, so you have

305
00:23:31,159 --> 00:23:37,479
Speaker 2: lost thirty thousand dollars in a month? Do you hide it?

306
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Speaker 2: Did you tell Phil? Did he know who's doing the

307
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Speaker 2: family accounts me?

308
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Speaker 1: He he just wanted to go to work.

309
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, and have that demarcation of labor. Yes,

310
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Speaker 2: so you're running the household. I'm doing all the other stuff.

311
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Speaker 1: And when I realized I had to tell him, I

312
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: wanted I just wanted to die. I didn't I didn't

313
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Speaker 1: know how to have that conversation with him. Had I

314
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Speaker 1: not been pregnant at that point, I don't think I

315
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 1: would be here. I think it's amazing that the two

316
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: points in my life where I just couldn't take it anymore,

317
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: I actually had life inside me keeping me here, and

318
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Speaker 1: I'm forever grateful for that.

319
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Speaker 2: The moment that you told him where were you? Where

320
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: did he come home from work or the kids in bed.

321
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Speaker 1: Or I said to him, let's go for a drive.

322
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Speaker 1: We need to have a chat. And it was funny

323
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Speaker 1: that he thought I was going to leave him. Oh

324
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 1: he so his brain was like, oh, she's going to

325
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: tell me. Now.

326
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,799
Speaker 2: That's interesting, though, isn't it, Because you know, you were

327
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 2: talking about how that the isolating nature and how you

328
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: distance yourself from yourself. So at some level, even though

329
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 2: for Shorthand, I'm going to say, even though he's a bloke,

330
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 2: but he had sensed maybe that withdrawal of you to

331
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Speaker 2: somewhere else and would have assumed that maybe.

332
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point. I never I hadn't

333
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,959
Speaker 1: connected that, but yeah, that makes sense that I was

334
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: very much in a state of isolation and stress and

335
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:04,479
Speaker 1: overwhelm and didn't know.

336
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you told him you told him, and what

337
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 2: did he say?

338
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: He just kind of looked confused, and then he just said,

339
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: so you're not leaving me. I was like, no, I

340
00:26:21,159 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 1: just I've lost all this money. I don't know what

341
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: to do. And he just said, don't worry about it,

342
00:26:29,919 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: just let's just move forward. And he took my cards

343
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: for like a week, but he needed me to do

344
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: everything for the business and the house and everything. So

345
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 1: it didn't work as a strategy. And he didn't understand

346
00:26:50,879 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: what gambling addiction looked like. I didn't know how to

347
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: navigate it. When you're away from it, it seems like

348
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: you're in control. It seems like you're in your body,

349
00:27:07,399 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 1: you're in your mind, you're okay, but then at some

350
00:27:12,639 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: point you're not.

351
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: And was your thought process then, when you realize that

352
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 2: the worst thing that you could have said to him

353
00:27:22,679 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: was that you were leaving, was your thought process? Then, oh,

354
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: thank goodness, I will never do.

355
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: That again, Oh absolutely?

356
00:27:33,159 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 2: And was your thought process that just about that every

357
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: time you left the Pokeys.

358
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:45,279
Speaker 1: Every time, every time, you can't believe it happened again,

359
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:52,719
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't make any logical sense. You know, You're like,

360
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: there are just no words.

361
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: Why did it keep happening again with your understanding that

362
00:28:11,679 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: you have.

363
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: Now because we are never We as human beings are

364
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: not built to encounter such a machine. That's why it happens.

365
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: Because me versus it will always win. That's just how

366
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:39,959
Speaker 1: it goes.

367
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: So, Kate, when you took philm for that heart sick

368
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,999
Speaker 2: drive to tell him about the money that you'd lost,

369
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,759
Speaker 2: and his main concern was that you were going to

370
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: leave him, did it occur to you at all that

371
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:01,999
Speaker 2: he would leave you?

372
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was very afraid of it at that point.

373
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: I thought, once he here's this, He's going to leave.

374
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:25,999
Speaker 1: But he didn't. And he he was just so you know,

375
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: confused and overwhelmed by what I was saying. And I

376
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: think at that point, like a lot of people think

377
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: gambling is just a selfish activity not understood as an addiction,

378
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: you know, like you would if I showed up on drugs.

379
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: It would be like a lot of.

380
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: People would also have enough of that, do you know

381
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: what I mean? He wasn't. He wasn't that person.

382
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: No, he he's just he's a simple guy.

383
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,279
Speaker 2: And he said his vows and he had them.

384
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

385
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 2: Hey, do you think if the roles were reversed that

386
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: you would have shown such grace and patience towards him.

387
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: I hope that I would. I think at other points

388
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:47,279
Speaker 1: in our marriage things have not being ideal, and I

389
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: really drew on the fact that when I was experiencing

390
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: what I was experiencing, I was not me. And when

391
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: he showed up in a way that I felt like

392
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: I didn't deserve, I was like, hold on a minute,

393
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: you could do that. He's not him, He's not himself

394
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:15,999
Speaker 1: at the moment, and you know you can see that

395
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: and turn away from it because it's easy, or you know,

396
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:26,759
Speaker 1: it feels like you can stay in your righteousness, or

397
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: but it's not seeing that person in pain and staying

398
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? If you operate from your own

399
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: pain or discomfort, that's when you go, well, I can't

400
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,959
Speaker 1: deal with this and I'm out. But if you see

401
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: that the other person is in distress and you show

402
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: up for that, then it's a completely you know, you're

403
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: you're not operating from your own pain.

404
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: So when you're in the hole with feel and the mortgage,

405
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,239
Speaker 2: so at this point the holes is it thirty grand?

406
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: Then yeah, so you go to try and win that back.

407
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,799
Speaker 1: There was a period there where I was able to

408
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: stay away, you know, after disclosing to him. But then

409
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: that's how long was that? How long was that? Probably

410
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: another six or eight months. And then after you know,

411
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: the bills we were trying to build and there didn't

412
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: seem to be enough money, and that just every time

413
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: there was financial strain in the household, I shouldered it, thinking, yes,

414
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: I created this problem, I've got to fix it, and

415
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: again still never accessing any kind of help or thinking

416
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: that it was help for what I was experiencing. I mean,

417
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: we now talk about gambling harm, like you know, how

418
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: we understand cigarette how they harm people. Back then, there

419
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: was no gambling harm wasn't a phrase that anybody uttered.

420
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: And because that change had been quite rapid as well,

421
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: like that's within one generation what happened, because I remember

422
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,959
Speaker 2: my husband's parents talk about how their parents would go

423
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,479
Speaker 2: to the pokies and they'd have to go they'd have

424
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: to go into state and cross and it was a weekend.

425
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: They'd make a weekend of it or whatever. Now it's endemic, Yes,

426
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 2: it's everywhere. And also it's been conflated with the word community. Yes,

427
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: so it's really sanctioned.

428
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:02,239
Speaker 1: Yes, you know, absolutely so that model of traveling, like

429
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: people going to Vegas. It was meant to be a destination,

430
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 1: not on.

431
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: Your doorstep, yeah, not at your not at your maternal

432
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 2: health center. Yes, so then you think that you can help.

433
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 2: After six months, you're like, I got us into this mess,

434
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 2: I can get us out of it.

435
00:34:29,759 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that belief of you know this, if I do this,

436
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 1: we'll be able to get yeah, get this, get out

437
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: of this hole, get out of this stress. And it

438
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: was just this role, a coaster of gambling, stress, abstaining

439
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 1: for a period of time either you know at this stage,

440
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 1: you know, trust had been eroded so many times, so

441
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: he would accuse me even if I hadn't. And so

442
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:23,919
Speaker 1: I just was like drowning in shame and guilt day and.

443
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: Had you shared it with anyone beyond the pair of you,

444
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: so not your parents, not no broader family.

445
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: And I really hamstrung him in not really knowing how

446
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 1: to seek help because I said, if anyone ever finds

447
00:35:44,279 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: out about this, I will kill myself. And that's how

448
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: much shame had just once.

449
00:35:53,799 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: Again, you actually created the perfect environment for the shame

450
00:35:59,160 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: to grow.

451
00:35:59,759 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: You hothoused it. Yeah, yeah, and it was it was

452
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: so hard to exist in that environment and with that

453
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: level of stress. And I described those years of my

454
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: brain being on like fast forward, you know, like it

455
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 1: was just worrying and I'm having dreams about the machines

456
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: in my sleep, I've hearing the sounds. It was torment.

457
00:36:35,759 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: How are you finding the time in your day to

458
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 2: do it?

459
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: Are you doing it in small when the kids would

460
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: be it preschool or school?

461
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 2: How many kids are you up to by now?

462
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: Oh? Well we had three in three and a half

463
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: years and then a four year gap. And that four

464
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: years was the strain on my body. I grew foll pregnant.

465
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 2: The stress was so great. And did Phil know at

466
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 2: this stage, Yeah, you know, he knew bits and pieces,

467
00:37:17,799 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 2: but he was then in such a state of overwhelm

468
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 2: in and of it himself, you know.

469
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: He he just as I save wanted to get up

470
00:37:29,799 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: and work and come home and not think about the

471
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 1: peri viewer in this deadly packed Yeah. So it was

472
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 1: not great at all. And it's been amazing in being

473
00:37:47,279 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: in advocacy and sharing my story. How many women have

474
00:37:53,920 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: contacted me and said, you lived my life like this.

475
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: I'm hearing you share your story.

476
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 2: And different because so much of gambling. Like, I've got

477
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 2: four children and three of them are boys, and they

478
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: watch a lot of sport, and I'm constantly struck by

479
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 2: the polethora of gambling advertising that's aimed at them. Is

480
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: gambling a different is it a different model for women?

481
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: I think pokem machines have always been very accessible to

482
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: women because those environments, like club environments, often you know,

483
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: they'll have bingo or something like that and then they're like,

484
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: now we're going to have a pokey break off, you guy.

485
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: So even if people go there to do something else

486
00:38:57,279 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: and it feels safe, yes, exactly, and they're often the

487
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: only places open at night that feel safe for women.

488
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: So it is that would definitely be where women have

489
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: experienced the highest levels of harm. But now that wagering

490
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: has you know, really saturated the male market in Australia,

491
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: they've definitely turned their sites towards women and are using

492
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: influencers paying them to model gambling to women and with

493
00:39:39,799 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: novelty markets, So like, what color is Kate Middleton's stress

494
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: going to be? Who's going to win mass? All of

495
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: that kind.

496
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 2: Of craplet's stress will be blue by the one.

497
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: So that is the way that it is it is

498
00:39:58,799 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: insidious and the grooming. As you said, we have a

499
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 1: million gambling ads that we are bombarded by a year

500
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: in this country. A million adds a year from gambling companies.

501
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: That's how much they are investing in the normalization of gambling,

502
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:23,959
Speaker 1: in the conditioning of it as our culture. You know

503
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 1: that they have planted. It's not something that we know

504
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: are born and need to do. You know, just like

505
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: now people are changing their attitude towards alcohol and going No,

506
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: that's not really great for my well being. But a

507
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: decade or two ago, if people said, well, we're smoking,

508
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: we're drinking, we're gambling, that's who we are as Australian culture. No,

509
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: that's three very powerful industries that have sold us that

510
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 1: culture and that are all linked.

511
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: Yes, were you drinking when you were gambling?

512
00:41:04,759 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 1: No, all of my money would go into the machine.

513
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: I didn't eat, I didn't drink. I just how much

514
00:41:13,279 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 1: time did you have.

515
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: As at the machine, Like you're still sandwiching this in

516
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 2: between helping run a business and running a household and

517
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: young kids.

518
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: Well, time is interesting because the rate at which you

519
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: can lose money at a poker machine. I don't know

520
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: if you know this but in new stuff, I know

521
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: this from you.

522
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: Yeah it's at two hundred dollars a minute. Yeah that

523
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: that is mine.

524
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: Six thousand dollars in a half an hour. You can

525
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: lose on one machine. On one machine. And so if

526
00:41:55,759 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: you it depends, if it's in a cycle of you know,

527
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: giving you features and things like that, will that will

528
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 1: extend that time. But if it's in a state of

529
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:15,479
Speaker 1: just taking you for everything, you can burn through that

530
00:42:15,799 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: in Like you're like, oh, that wasn't even an hour,

531
00:42:20,759 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: and there goes four thousands, you know, like.

532
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 2: What was the most you lost in one session?

533
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: Twelve thousand?

534
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: And then you had to go, well, pick up kids

535
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 2: after that and go home and what's that that drive?

536
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: Like I had to try and not turn into a

537
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: tree thereria and then when and I didn't walk in

538
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: with twelve grand like right, yeah.

539
00:42:54,279 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 3: I went in with one thousand.

540
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: Where did the eleven come from? After I'd been to

541
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: the ATM, couldn't get anymore out than there was a

542
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 1: bank literally across the road from the club, straight out

543
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: of the mortgage.

544
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 2: So then on this day, for instance, you go home,

545
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: You've got the kids, you're making dinner, you're doing those

546
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 2: things is feel home yet or not home?

547
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: Not home?

548
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 2: When he comes home, when he looks at you, can

549
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 2: he see it? Do you feel like it's I don't know?

550
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 2: Or have you got so good at compartmentalizing?

551
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's hard to remember that time. Like I

552
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: know that I think back now and I describe what

553
00:43:56,279 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: I was like and it's unrecognizable to me and the

554
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 1: mother that I am, you know, And it was so

555
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: hard just being hijacked, like thinking this, this isn't how

556
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: I saw my life going, like angry that I think

557
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: one of the biggest moments for me was realizing that

558
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:44,479
Speaker 1: I started hating myself when I was eighteen at that time.

559
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: At that time, like I hated that I'd ever gone

560
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: into a club and sat down at a machine, and

561
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,879
Speaker 1: I wished I could go back and never have done that,

562
00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: and I couldn't change it, and that haunted me every day.

563
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: It was that was the thing that I wished I

564
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: could change. And at that point, the only message that

565
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: had ever been on a TV or an ad about

566
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: gambling was gambled responsibly, so that personal responsibility narrative sat so,

567
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: of course, and.

568
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 2: That means that the failing is with you.

569
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 1: Yes, and so I had absolutely no insight at that

570
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 1: point as to the whole gambling environment, the extent of

571
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: how many people are harmed in Australia by the gambling industry,

572
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: none of that.

573
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 2: And then I construct, yes, designed to exactly elicit that response.

574
00:45:51,799 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 1: Yes, that I In lenn Ainsworth's own words, he said,

575
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: I built a better mouse trap. Who's is he? The

576
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: guy that designed he created? Pokey's yeah, aristocrat right, he

577
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: gloated about it. He started off making dentist chairs and

578
00:46:14,799 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: somebody came into his warehouse in Sydney and said, do

579
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: you want to make these machines instead? And he said yep.

580
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: And then he went over to America and saw Las

581
00:46:26,799 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: Vegas and went, yeah, I'm doing this, and he made

582
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: them bigger and better and more sinister and hasn't stopped.

583
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: No, And Australians are really in the grip of them,

584
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 2: because we lose more than any other nation per capita. Absolutely,

585
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 2: we are the nation most harmed by gambling in the world.

586
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: And there's.

587
00:46:53,759 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: Look, I don't know, but to me it seems as

588
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,439
Speaker 2: someone who's just observed it, like I was saying, through

589
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: you know, the wagering ants or whatever, it seems that

590
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 2: is a certain degree of unwillingness to to change that

591
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 2: at governmental level.

592
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: I was so naive as to just how captured the

593
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: government was when I first stepped into advocacy. I really

594
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: I talked to a whole room full of club staff

595
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: because I started being a speaker for the service provider

596
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 1: that it helped me. And they said, oh, we're giving

597
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: you know, training to the club staff. And I thought, well,

598
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: I better tell them that these machines actually hurt people,

599
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: because I don't think they know. But do they say it? No? No,

600
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: this is that was my naive. Okay, all right, Like

601
00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: is that my naive? Yes? So I go and I say, look,

602
00:48:01,759 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: you know, this is what happened to me. This is

603
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: how much money.

604
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 2: And.

605
00:48:08,279 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: This is They're all sitting there, stone faced, arms crossed,

606
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: and I thought, oh my gosh, you know, you just

607
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: don't care. And that was this absolute horror of oh

608
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 1: my gosh. They knowingly financially exploit their own patrons for

609
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: profit and encourage it like the man did that first.

610
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: Naice right, And there's that's also a I think, part

611
00:48:50,759 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 2: of the ethos of Australian thinking, and in some ways

612
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:58,359
Speaker 2: it's kind of a magnificent stoic form of thinking that

613
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,959
Speaker 2: that's on you love, yeah, but in other ways, when

614
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 2: you're being preyed upon, that's not helpful, and the refusal

615
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 2: to see it is not helpful. Now at governmental level, though,

616
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 2: it sounds as though because there's so many boards and

617
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 2: we're going to have a commission, we're going to blah

618
00:49:16,759 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 2: blah blah.

619
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 1: It's a constant thing.

620
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: And it seems like that's saying the sheep is scared

621
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 2: of the wolf, but they really should be scared of

622
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 2: the shepherd, because at governmental and bureaucratic level, as you say, captured,

623
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 2: they're in the thrall of they the money.

624
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: They became bedfellows, you know. When they were rolled out,

625
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,959
Speaker 1: they said, will take attacks and you get to do

626
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: what you like, and we'll give the money to community,

627
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: some back to the community and everyone will be fine.

628
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: And states loved it because they had money flowing in

629
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: which they hadn't before, and nobody stop to think about

630
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: the human carnage that is the result of that money flowing.

631
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 1: They've all just seen it as free money, you know,

632
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 1: to give away and do whatever and refurb and.

633
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: You know it's there must be people that are touched

634
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 2: personally by it themselves. There must be people on these committees.

635
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 2: There must be people like in our family, we have

636
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 2: people who have had terrible problems with gambling.

637
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: So point to an Australian family that doesn't correct. So

638
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: they must know, even at a personal level, they absolutely do.

639
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: And what we saw I think it was last week

640
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: or the week before, was you know. Wilkie asked that

641
00:50:54,920 --> 00:51:00,800
Speaker 1: alban easy give them a free vote to actually let

642
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 1: the individual members do a conscience far on banning gamble.

643
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,760
Speaker 1: And he got up and said, we are not a

644
00:51:11,799 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: group of individuals. We are a party and we do

645
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: basically what I say, and we are not doing it.

646
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: And he put them all in their place and said,

647
00:51:26,759 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: if you break ranks, whereas they individually members of the

648
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: Labor Party are very unhappy with the fact that the

649
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: Murphy Review has been shelved for two and a half years,

650
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 1: that it doesn't name another thing that you know, we've

651
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 1: brought conscious awareness to that Australia is bad at or

652
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: needs attention, and that resources aren't flooding to sort out

653
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:07,879
Speaker 1: that issue like this is it. There is so much

654
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: evidence to support reforms and yet zero political will to

655
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: actually action it. And that's because vested interests are pulling

656
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: the strings coming up.

657
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 2: After the break, Kate opens up about how the shame

658
00:52:25,759 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 2: of that cycle pushed her to a very dark place.

659
00:52:33,799 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: So this is you now.

660
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 2: An extraordinary person, an extraordinary person when you were not

661
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 2: aware of how extraordinary you were when you were at

662
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 2: your lowest EBB?

663
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: When was that?

664
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:08,919
Speaker 3: In twenty twelve, I had experienced gambling harm for over

665
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 3: twelve and a half years and.

666
00:53:13,799 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 1: I was so done so mentally, physically, emotionally exhausted. I

667
00:53:24,799 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: couldn't keep holding up a facade of I'm okay anymore.

668
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: And it was just after Christmas. It was January. Christmas

669
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: is always a hard time because that would just make

670
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: me feel guilty, and I'd like over compensate and try

671
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: and give the kids lots of things and try and

672
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 1: make up for you know, how awful I felt about myself.

673
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: And then January would come around, and because my husband

674
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 1: had downtime with his work, you know, being self employed,

675
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 1: even when you have time off, guess what, no money

676
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: is coming in. So I felt this, you know, stress

677
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: of how we going to pay these bills again? And

678
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:40,320
Speaker 1: I thought I can't, I just can't anymore. And I'd

679
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 1: been to go pick up a check off a builder

680
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:49,280
Speaker 1: and went and cashed it and went into a venue

681
00:54:49,279 --> 00:54:55,919
Speaker 1: and it was gone in an hour, and I thought so.

682
00:54:56,120 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: Then I sat there for hours, just pregnant, crying, try

683
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: to figure out how to take my life but not

684
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: harm my child. And my phone was ringing, and I

685
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: didn't know what to say. Was it Phil? Did he

686
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 1: know where you were? Did he have a clue? He

687
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 1: knew I would be gambling, but he didn't know where

688
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 1: I was. And what did you say? When I finally

689
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 1: answered it, I just pushed the button and just held

690
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: it next to my ear, and he just said, please

691
00:55:48,120 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 1: just come home. So did a.

692
00:56:03,279 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 2: Part of you marvel in all of these that he

693
00:56:07,799 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 2: still wanted you to come home.

694
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: That that was not what I was expecting. I was

695
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 1: expecting him to scream at me, but he knew it

696
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: was life and death.

697
00:56:30,279 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 2: So what where do you go for help? Because, like

698
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 2: you said, these very few especially then, very few resources.

699
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I am sorry, don't be sorry.

700
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: Can you pass me?

701
00:56:45,279 --> 00:56:45,439
Speaker 3: Why?

702
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 1: That's just please come home?

703
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 3: Yeah?

704
00:56:50,880 --> 00:57:01,280
Speaker 2: So, which, by the way, is you know, really a

705
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 2: very good reference for you?

706
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:08,760
Speaker 1: And how how lovable you are.

707
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 2: That you were having you still had six children in

708
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 2: this time of enormous stress, and you know, alienation to

709
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 2: a certain extent, and your husband, who knew the darkest

710
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 2: of you, wanted you to come home.

711
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: I know I had last sight of everything that was

712
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: true of me at that point. You know, all you

713
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: can see is the mistakes that you've made, and you're

714
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: being like driven by something you don't understand, like possession

715
00:57:52,320 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: it is. It's a mental hijack that I didn't consent to.

716
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: I didn't even know was possible. My brother sat me

717
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: down when I was sixteen and said, Kate just promised me,

718
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: you will never do drugs. Like, who do you know

719
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: that's life was ever better because they took drugs? Tell me?

720
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: And I was like, no, I can't think of anyone.

721
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: And he was like, please just promise me. And I've

722
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 1: never done it, you know. I just thought, yeah, that

723
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: makes sense. I don't want it to be a drug addict,

724
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 1: Like why would I take drugs? I wish somebody told

725
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: me that. I've met women who have struggle with drugs

726
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: and gambling and they say gambling is way worse.

727
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 2: Well, also because there's no outward manifestation, yeah, gambling, so

728
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 2: it lends itself to being got away.

729
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: With yeah a lot.

730
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 2: You know, it's not necessarily you know, causing you to

731
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 2: act out, or.

732
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: It's just the way I describe it to people is

733
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 1: do you know the the Betty White ad where the

734
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 1: sneakers ad where the guy's playing football with his friends

735
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 1: and then they are like, come on, you're playing like

736
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 1: Betty White out there, and he goes and she's there

737
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 1: and she's like, shut up, that's not what your girlfriend

738
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 1: said last night, you know. And then the girlfriend comes

739
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: over and gives Betty White the sneakers bar, takes a bite,

740
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 1: he turns back into the guy and he goes. She goes,

741
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:54,439
Speaker 1: you better now, and he goes, yes, and he's him,

742
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: not Betty White anymore. And then it's like, you are

743
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 1: not you when you're hungry, right, yes, yes, yes, I

744
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 1: show that ad when I give presentations, because I like,

745
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 1: you are not you when you're in the group of

746
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: gambling harm, you are not you. You may look like you,

747
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 1: you may get up and do all the things like

748
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: you normally do, but you are not you. You are you

749
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:25,999
Speaker 1: when you are away, like away from it, and when

750
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: you have restored your self esteem, when you are no

751
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: longer driven by the shame that shouldn't have ever coded

752
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: me and suffocated me to the point of almost taking

753
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: my life. The shame in this scenario belongs on the

754
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 1: knowing perpetrators of harm, this industry that created products designed

755
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: to addict. Yes, governments who have enabled it for decades,

756
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 1: and not only enabled it as far as you know,

757
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:08,600
Speaker 1: green lighting licenses and all of that. Up until twelve

758
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 1: months ago, the gambler industry was still accessing public money

759
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: in research and development grants to further develop the ones

760
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:27,959
Speaker 1: that I described earlier. Wow. Yeah, so that's how in

761
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: bed the government and the industry are.

762
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 2: It's horrific on an individual level. When you had to

763
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 2: extricate yourself and you're at a place of having nothing,

764
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 2: how did you get on your knees to then get

765
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 2: on your feet.

766
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 1: The morning after I almost took my life, my husband

767
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: drove me to a counselor, and I remember being in

768
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 1: the car thinking, well, I don't know what this counselor

769
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 1: is going to tell me that the others haven't, and

770
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: maybe I'll just go to treatment until the baby's born

771
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 1: and then I'll be able to take my life. And

772
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: when I walked into this office, this woman She was amazing.

773
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: She just could see how destroyed I was. And she

774
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 1: started saying things to me, like tell me what you

775
01:02:55,080 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 1: like about you? And I was like, oh, nothing, nothing.

776
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 1: And she knew straight away that my self esteem had

777
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 1: been destroyed as an eighteen year old. And she said,

778
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: You've got to tell me ten things that you like

779
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 1: about yourself. And that was what kind of gave me

780
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 1: this window into the true me, the actual me.

781
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 2: What was the what was one of the things you

782
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 2: could think of?

783
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 1: I still have that list, and it's you know that.

784
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:41,919
Speaker 1: I bet it took you a long time. It took

785
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 1: me a week to come up with the list. I

786
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: She said, think about what other people say to you,

787
01:03:55,680 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 1: and I was like, well, realizing that every time somebody

788
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 1: paid me a compliment, I never let it penetrate myself

789
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: because you were not worthy. I was like, no, if

790
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 1: you really knew me, you wouldn't say that. And I

791
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 1: started to realize that maybe they did know me. It's

792
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 1: just I didn't know me. And I thought, you know, well,

793
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 1: I'm very hospitable. I love to entertain, I love to

794
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 1: have people over. I was very generous help out anyone

795
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 1: that was a friend of mine. I loved babies. Obviously,

796
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,919
Speaker 1: I would love going and helping new mums with their

797
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 1: new babies.

798
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 2: And were you up to number six by this point

799
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 2: of your own children?

800
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 1: Yeah? I was one of seven, and I loved being

801
01:04:54,600 --> 01:05:00,080
Speaker 1: in a big family and that creating the family that

802
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 1: I have is my treasure. How are the kids with

803
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 1: all of this? Do they understand it? I mean obviously

804
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 1: older ones, but do they They didn't even know any

805
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: of anything that I struggled with until I went public

806
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 1: with it. To be honest, they or they knew was

807
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 1: Mum and Dad thought about money sometimes, but it didn't

808
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 1: They didn't go to clubs or anything like that. So

809
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 1: they they were shocked when I first sat them down

810
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 1: and said, look, I'm going to be talking about this.

811
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 1: So was this like, so you.

812
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 2: Stopped in twenty twelvelve and then your advocacy oh started

813
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:57,200
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen.

814
01:05:57,640 --> 01:05:59,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a couple of years later.

815
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 2: Remarkable.

816
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: I did a lot of work on me, you know,

817
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: really rebuilding me from the ground up.

818
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:15,360
Speaker 2: And was it one of those things that once you know,

819
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 2: like starting with a list.

820
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 1: That it gave you, it created its own momentum then Yeah, and.

821
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 2: The strength kind of snowballed in you or was it

822
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 2: that you Did you relapse at all? Did you have

823
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 2: any setbacks?

824
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:30,919
Speaker 3: No?

825
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: I I think it did just gain kind of momentum

826
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 1: in well. I started obviously had a great one on

827
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 1: one counselor. But then she said, oh, there's a group

828
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 1: you might want to go. It's called Smart Recovery. Do

829
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: you want to give it a try? And they were

830
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 1: meeting on a Monday night and I walked in and

831
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 1: that was the first time I'd ever been in a

832
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 1: room with other people who had struggled with gambling, other

833
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 1: than at the Poky's Yes Yes, and hearing other people

834
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 1: share their stories, I was like, I think I just

835
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,959
Speaker 1: exhaled for the first time in fifteen years. Like it

836
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 1: was amazing. What were they like? They were like everybody,

837
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: they were young, old, different nationalities, male, female, Like there

838
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:31,200
Speaker 1: wasn't a type I wasn't sitting in a room with Yeah. Yeah,

839
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 1: And I thought, oh my gosh, it's happening to everyone.

840
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 1: But when you're in the room and everyone's pressing a button,

841
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 1: you don't know the level of distress that are you

842
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,919
Speaker 1: not even looking now, So when you go in there,

843
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 1: it's a very insular kind of thing, and that's how

844
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:55,919
Speaker 1: it's designed. Even the ergonomics of the screens now are

845
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 1: curved so that it envelops you in the zone, in

846
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 1: the cocoon. And that was what ticked me off about

847
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:13,040
Speaker 1: the minister's press release last week, the new South Wales minister.

848
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:20,760
Speaker 1: He said, because they've now made this big about the time, yes,

849
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:25,680
Speaker 1: closing for two hundred and seventy venues are now going

850
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 1: to have to close at four right, you know, how

851
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 1: about you actually put the time you know, midnight? Actually

852
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:38,680
Speaker 1: are there still no clocks in Pokey?

853
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 3: Yes?

854
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:44,440
Speaker 1: No, So that in his press release he said, it's

855
01:08:44,480 --> 01:08:47,640
Speaker 1: so that you know, venues will now have to close

856
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 1: at four am, so that people can go home, get

857
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 1: out of the zone. And what was the word? It

858
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:06,640
Speaker 1: was like reflect upon their choices? Oh, like are you serious?

859
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:12,120
Speaker 1: Like for am we need to it's us that needs

860
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:16,600
Speaker 1: to reflect upon our choices, like we have a choice

861
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:25,000
Speaker 1: at that point. Like that, it spoke to the detachment

862
01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:30,080
Speaker 1: of his awareness of this as an addiction, of course,

863
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 1: because that they have to think like that or they

864
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 1: couldn't profer that as a solution.

865
01:09:37,480 --> 01:09:39,480
Speaker 2: So it has to go back to that thinking. Pull

866
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:41,680
Speaker 2: yourself up by your bootstraps. You need to have the

867
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 2: discipline to say no, etc. But then I am interested

868
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:52,760
Speaker 2: in this case because so other people went to the

869
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:57,480
Speaker 2: club that night, for instance, when you're eighteen, and they

870
01:09:57,560 --> 01:10:02,680
Speaker 2: didn't end up with gambling addictions. So to some certain extent,

871
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,720
Speaker 2: the call is coming from inside the house as well.

872
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:08,520
Speaker 2: What what is that?

873
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:13,120
Speaker 1: That is how I describe Do you like lucorice?

874
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 3: Oh?

875
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 1: Yes, I do. I like that. I hate it right,

876
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 1: So you know, it's as arbitrary as that it doesn't

877
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 1: some people it lights up and some it doesn't. And

878
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:34,560
Speaker 1: it's as random as do you like lucorice or not?

879
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 2: You know, but as the machines become more sophisticated, the extra.

880
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:46,280
Speaker 1: The thing is is there's a there's a few factors

881
01:10:46,480 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 1: which come into play.

882
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:49,240
Speaker 2: So for.

883
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:56,440
Speaker 1: People that I've seen over the last decade in advocacy,

884
01:10:56,520 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: nine times out of ten they went to the venue

885
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:06,360
Speaker 1: for a wedding, a work function, whatever, and had an

886
01:11:06,440 --> 01:11:11,680
Speaker 1: encounter with machine. And that was the beginning. So I'm like, okay,

887
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:15,640
Speaker 1: so you left the house that night thinking you were

888
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: going to your cousin's wedding. Yeah, you never saw it coming.

889
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 1: You thought you were just playing a machine, But that

890
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:32,480
Speaker 1: isn't what happened. You know, like that pathway then, yeah,

891
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 1: opened up, you know, a pathway into your future that

892
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 1: you never saw coming. And for some people that's exactly

893
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 1: how it rolls out. For others, they might have, you know,

894
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:52,800
Speaker 1: these random exposures at different points in their life, but

895
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:59,640
Speaker 1: then something you know changes. They might have a death right. Yes,

896
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:07,480
Speaker 1: there's vulnerability's vulnerability, and then they're like whatever relationship they

897
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:12,560
Speaker 1: have to. So one woman, she used to go to

898
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:17,400
Speaker 1: gamble with her father. Then her father passed away, so

899
01:12:17,440 --> 01:12:21,360
Speaker 1: she went to go and the memory of the memory

900
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:25,520
Speaker 1: of that activity that they shared and then her grief

901
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 1: got horrifically exploited. Does that make sense? Yes? Yes, So

902
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:38,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter whether it's a single exposure or periodic exposure.

903
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:43,480
Speaker 1: It's the fact that if you actually open up that

904
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 1: doorway of vulnerability, it can be exploit It will be

905
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:51,600
Speaker 1: exploited at any point. If you.

906
01:12:54,160 --> 01:13:00,360
Speaker 2: If you could change one thing regarding the you know,

907
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 2: regulatory bodies in this country, one thing, what would it be.

908
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 1: Well, that's why we started this petition called Lost Limits

909
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:20,840
Speaker 1: not Lost Lives. With the Change we are very fortunate

910
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:27,519
Speaker 1: to have partnered with Change or to run this petition

911
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:31,600
Speaker 1: to call on state and territory governments to prioritize lost limits.

912
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:38,640
Speaker 1: It is the single biggest impact that will have at

913
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 1: stopping addiction from forming and stop the cascading of losses

914
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 1: that builds up very very quickly.

915
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:53,480
Speaker 2: So it would, for instance, in your case, you would

916
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:57,560
Speaker 2: not have lost half a million dollars. No, your family

917
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:01,560
Speaker 2: would not have borne that cost.

918
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:09,520
Speaker 1: Definitely, It's a safeguard that should have always been in

919
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 1: place for such a harmful product. And the industry gets

920
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:19,560
Speaker 1: to keep saying, we're just providing entertainment. It's just fun,

921
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:24,280
Speaker 1: it's just a game, you know. And if that is true,

922
01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:29,720
Speaker 1: then they should have no problem with supporting lost limits.

923
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 1: But that isn't Their core business is exploiting human beings.

924
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 2: Do you think I mean, you're talking about taking on

925
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 2: really big money. Do you worry it all for your

926
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 2: safety or do you have any blowback from the industry.

927
01:14:54,560 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 1: I have been in boardrooms for the last decade opposite industry.

928
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:11,920
Speaker 1: This is unfortunately the landscape of unsafe advocacy in this space.

929
01:15:12,480 --> 01:15:16,040
Speaker 1: Like if there was any other if I'd been sexually assaulted,

930
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 1: do you think I would be sitting across the table

931
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:23,960
Speaker 1: from a whole bunch of rapists. No, you know, this

932
01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:28,760
Speaker 1: is how I roll on a day to day basis.

933
01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:33,240
Speaker 1: They hate me, I hate them, and it is it

934
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:38,480
Speaker 1: is what it is. But I know that I have

935
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:44,160
Speaker 1: spent the last decade in unpaid advocacy because I am

936
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 1: fighting for the lives of people who don't understand how

937
01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:58,240
Speaker 1: their life got impacted from walking into a venue. Has

938
01:15:58,320 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 1: happened to you, Yeah, it's not okay. It's not okay

939
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 1: on any level that this level of wealth is being

940
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:17,280
Speaker 1: extracted from our communities, from our households, from businesses, and

941
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:20,760
Speaker 1: and they're just like, this is the only industry that

942
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:24,400
Speaker 1: doesn't even pay back the proceeds of crime. For goodness sake,

943
01:16:25,040 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 1: They what do you mean? So if if I worked

944
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:32,600
Speaker 1: at an accounting firm and I'm pouring other people's money

945
01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:36,560
Speaker 1: into the poking machine day in, day out, and it

946
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:43,000
Speaker 1: gets discovered, I go to jail. They the person doesn't

947
01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 1: either get their money, They don't get their money back

948
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 1: unless they get come after me and I have to

949
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:56,360
Speaker 1: dissolve my super or whatever. The club Now we don't have.

950
01:16:56,320 --> 01:16:59,760
Speaker 2: To give it back, even though they've received staff, though

951
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:02,640
Speaker 2: they have received the proceeds of crime.

952
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:08,640
Speaker 1: And I believe that there has to be a reckoning here.

953
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:14,360
Speaker 1: Either people are guilty and go to jail and they

954
01:17:14,480 --> 01:17:18,320
Speaker 1: pay back the money, or a crime hasn't occurred. You know,

955
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:21,640
Speaker 1: I can't be you have both ways. Yes, you can't

956
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:24,440
Speaker 1: have it both ways. And the wagering companies are just

957
01:17:24,480 --> 01:17:29,080
Speaker 1: as guilty. They do the same. It's it's despicable. Hey,

958
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 1: how's your husband now? He's great. We are very blessed.

959
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:41,000
Speaker 1: We have six amazing children. I have it eighteen month

960
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 1: old granddaughter.

961
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 2: And he's got his wife back. Yeah, this maybe wasn't

962
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:50,800
Speaker 2: the incarnation he was expecting that Suddenly my wife's become

963
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:53,960
Speaker 2: a warrior. Like it's just all he wants to do,

964
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:59,560
Speaker 2: Kate is come home from work, all right. You can't

965
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:01,600
Speaker 2: give him that any in any form.

966
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:09,000
Speaker 1: No, he's he's wonder full and we are very grateful

967
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:15,960
Speaker 1: for the journey, despite the horrificness of it, to have

968
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:21,800
Speaker 1: been able to you know, I think it's that hope too,

969
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:29,000
Speaker 1: that our story you know, helps build we build families

970
01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:35,480
Speaker 1: that have been really damaged by this. The way the

971
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:39,800
Speaker 1: industry doesn't just weaponize shame against the individual, They weaponize

972
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:44,560
Speaker 1: shame and play with it in families. They make families

973
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:50,680
Speaker 1: hate the person who gambles instead of understanding, as a family,

974
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:55,160
Speaker 1: you've been harmed by this industry. You need to direct

975
01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:56,720
Speaker 1: that where it belongs.

976
01:18:56,800 --> 01:18:58,440
Speaker 2: Don't hate the player, I hate the game.

977
01:19:00,440 --> 01:19:06,760
Speaker 1: And that fires up people in advocacy. It brings truth

978
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:13,600
Speaker 1: back to communities and people start to respond in completely

979
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:18,920
Speaker 1: different ways when shame is no longer driving the situation.

980
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:23,200
Speaker 1: And I mean that's been the goal of the industry.

981
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:28,280
Speaker 1: They use people to extinction. So normally, had I not

982
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:31,480
Speaker 1: been pregnant, I would have killed myself. No one would

983
01:19:31,480 --> 01:19:35,240
Speaker 1: have you know, there wouldn't have been a blieve yes, right,

984
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:39,800
Speaker 1: they would have kept exploiting people. My family would have

985
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:45,120
Speaker 1: struggled and no one would have known.

986
01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:50,440
Speaker 2: And you would have been spoken of in hushed, hushed

987
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:53,560
Speaker 2: tones yes and shameful tones.

988
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 1: Yes.

989
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:55,080
Speaker 3: Hey.

990
01:19:56,120 --> 01:20:01,880
Speaker 2: If someone's listening, and they will be who either are

991
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 2: afflicted themselves or love someone who's afflict. What's one piece

992
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 2: of advice for them?

993
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 1: First of all, I'm so sorry that gambling harm has

994
01:20:15,480 --> 01:20:20,600
Speaker 1: impacted your family. That's the first sentence I say to

995
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:24,640
Speaker 1: a person. It helps them to understand this has happened

996
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:28,880
Speaker 1: to them. It's not who they are. And when you

997
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:35,080
Speaker 1: understand that, you can fight it correctly. You can understand

998
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:39,200
Speaker 1: the truth of the whole environment and help seek effectively.

999
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:47,560
Speaker 1: And that absolutely is a game changer. It's a game changer.

1000
01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:53,760
Speaker 1: So if people are currently help seeking and it's not helpful,

1001
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:57,720
Speaker 1: reach out to me on social media and I will

1002
01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:00,920
Speaker 1: connect you if if there's something I can do for

1003
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:04,200
Speaker 1: you personally, I will, But otherwise I will connect you

1004
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:08,120
Speaker 1: to to people that will help you. And if you

1005
01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:12,160
Speaker 1: have a loved one, you need to show up for

1006
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:17,400
Speaker 1: them in a way of building safe boundaries around it's

1007
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:27,520
Speaker 1: it's helping them to understand what has happened. So I

1008
01:21:27,560 --> 01:21:32,720
Speaker 1: get people to watch ka ching of the documentary because

1009
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:35,920
Speaker 1: that helps them to understand the mechanics and the machine

1010
01:21:35,960 --> 01:21:40,880
Speaker 1: and how they're being manipulated. So that lifts a level

1011
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:47,200
Speaker 1: of personal shame, and then you can see it for

1012
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:53,480
Speaker 1: what it is and not for the way that you've

1013
01:21:53,480 --> 01:21:57,360
Speaker 1: been conditioned to see it. Does that make sense, Yes,

1014
01:21:57,440 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 1: that makes sense.

1015
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:06,480
Speaker 2: Kate's Selda, thank you so much for sharing yourself with

1016
01:22:06,640 --> 01:22:10,760
Speaker 2: us on No Filter and for your advocacy.

1017
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:18,960
Speaker 1: Thank you. I really appreciate you talking with me and

1018
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:24,080
Speaker 1: talking about this topic in a constructive way, because it's

1019
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:30,400
Speaker 1: it's really not okay that it's harmed so many Australians

1020
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:35,080
Speaker 1: for decades. It's a runaway horse, it is, and I.

1021
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:38,560
Speaker 2: Would bet if I were a way daring woman that

1022
01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:41,480
Speaker 2: you are going to meet with some success. Thank you,

1023
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:44,880
Speaker 2: and on behalf of the nation. We thank you because

1024
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:51,240
Speaker 2: we need it. Kate's soldier's story is heartbreaking and painfully

1025
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:55,880
Speaker 2: familiar for so many Australian families. What she survived should

1026
01:22:55,880 --> 01:22:59,040
Speaker 2: never have been possible, and the fact that it was

1027
01:22:59,480 --> 01:23:02,800
Speaker 2: is a reflection of a system designed to keep people

1028
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:07,680
Speaker 2: playing long after they want to stop. Kate now dedicates

1029
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:09,720
Speaker 2: her life to changing that system.

1030
01:23:10,240 --> 01:23:12,360
Speaker 1: One of the things she's campaigning.

1031
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:16,280
Speaker 2: For is the enforcement of lost limits on all Australian

1032
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:21,520
Speaker 2: poker machines, a simple practical reform that could save families

1033
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:26,440
Speaker 2: and futures and lives. If you'd like to support that work,

1034
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:30,480
Speaker 2: we've linked the change dot org petition in our show notes.

1035
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:35,800
Speaker 2: Every signature can help push for meaningful reform. Thank you

1036
01:23:36,080 --> 01:23:39,920
Speaker 2: as always for listening to No Filter. The executive producer

1037
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:43,160
Speaker 2: of No Filter is Nama Brown. The senior producer is

1038
01:23:43,200 --> 01:23:47,600
Speaker 2: bre Player. Audio production is by Jacob Brown and video

1039
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:51,360
Speaker 2: editing is by Josh Green. This episode was recorded at

1040
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:55,680
Speaker 2: Session in Progress Studios and I'm your host, Kate Langbrook.

1041
01:23:56,200 --> 01:24:03,840
Speaker 2: I thank you so much for listening. Mumma Mia acknowledges

1042
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:06,040
Speaker 2: the traditional life owners of the land and waters that

1043
01:24:06,080 --> 01:24:07,760
Speaker 2: this podcast is recorded on