WEBVTT - How Gossiping At Work Can Boost Your Career 0:00:06.610 --> 0:00:10.050 You're listening to I'm Ama Mia podcast. 0:00:13.490 --> 0:00:17.890 Hello and welcome to Biz Your Work Life Sorted. I'm 0:00:17.970 --> 0:00:21.090 em Burnham and today we are diving into a topic 0:00:21.170 --> 0:00:26.009 that's probably happening in your workplace right now, office gossip. 0:00:26.650 --> 0:00:29.490 So you know the feeling when you're in the breakroom 0:00:29.490 --> 0:00:31.650 and someone kind of leans into you and tells you 0:00:31.729 --> 0:00:35.529 the latest office drama literally my dream scenario. Or when 0:00:35.530 --> 0:00:38.250 you accidentally get added to a Slack thread that definitely 0:00:38.330 --> 0:00:40.650 wasn't meant for your eyes and you think you're being 0:00:40.730 --> 0:00:42.690 a bit ghosted when they suddenly deleted it. 0:00:43.050 --> 0:00:43.850 We've all been. 0:00:43.690 --> 0:00:47.570 There, But today our career coaches Michelle Batisby and Sophurst 0:00:47.690 --> 0:00:52.490 are breaking down the surprising science behind workplace gossip, including 0:00:52.490 --> 0:00:55.890 why it might actually be good for your career, yes really, 0:00:56.210 --> 0:01:00.090 and how to navigate it without damaging your reputation. Plus, 0:01:00.130 --> 0:01:03.410 Michelle's going to share her four point framework for identifying 0:01:03.450 --> 0:01:06.770 when gossip crosses the line from hell full information sharing 0:01:06.810 --> 0:01:09.729 to toxic behavior. And trust me, you are going to 0:01:09.809 --> 0:01:13.490 want to take notes on this because I definitely did so. 0:01:14.089 --> 0:01:14.569 Michelle. 0:01:14.610 --> 0:01:17.530 I am obsessed with this topic because I think it's 0:01:17.569 --> 0:01:20.009 so nuanced, there's so much gray area, which is why 0:01:20.009 --> 0:01:23.089 I love debating it. And I think we're all taught 0:01:23.170 --> 0:01:25.649 that gossip at work is bad, right, That's what we're 0:01:25.649 --> 0:01:29.729 all taught, But is it really And also, if you're gossiping, 0:01:29.890 --> 0:01:31.889 is it even your fault? So this is what we're 0:01:31.890 --> 0:01:35.289 going to get into today. We've got a really juicy episode, Michelle. 0:01:35.330 --> 0:01:38.530 I've seen gossip completely derail people's careers, but I've also 0:01:38.569 --> 0:01:41.770 seen it help them get promoted. So I'm really excited 0:01:41.770 --> 0:01:44.289 to talk to you about this. Before we dive in, 0:01:44.490 --> 0:01:45.770 I just want to ask you a question. Do you 0:01:45.809 --> 0:01:48.570 know the difference between gossiping and venting? 0:01:49.010 --> 0:01:51.290 I feel like gossiping has a bit more of a 0:01:51.330 --> 0:01:55.250 negative association with it, but maybe gossiping also needs a 0:01:55.290 --> 0:01:57.850 bit of a rebrand, like that might not even be right, 0:01:57.930 --> 0:02:01.730 But I feel like venting is more about how you feel, 0:02:02.210 --> 0:02:05.330 and gossiping might be about others, And I think the 0:02:05.570 --> 0:02:08.370 about others is like why it has a bit of 0:02:08.410 --> 0:02:12.410 a negative connotation. But to your point, like it might 0:02:12.450 --> 0:02:13.610 not always be bad. 0:02:13.490 --> 0:02:14.290 You're exactly right. 0:02:14.370 --> 0:02:17.570 So gossiping is informal talk about someone else when they're 0:02:17.610 --> 0:02:21.210 not in the room, and it can actually be positive, neutral, 0:02:21.330 --> 0:02:24.250 or negative. So an example of gossip would be, you know, 0:02:24.410 --> 0:02:26.690 Sam moved the meeting again. It's the third time this week. 0:02:26.730 --> 0:02:30.250 I wonder what's really going on. Venting is expressing your 0:02:30.290 --> 0:02:33.450 own personal feelings or frustration, sort of with the goal 0:02:33.530 --> 0:02:36.570 of like seeking understanding or like solving the problem in 0:02:36.610 --> 0:02:38.850 a way. So that would be like, ugh, Sam moved 0:02:38.890 --> 0:02:41.690 the meeting again. You know they're always doing this. Now 0:02:41.690 --> 0:02:43.570 my day's messed up? Should I say something? What do 0:02:43.570 --> 0:02:43.889 you think? 0:02:44.010 --> 0:02:44.090 Like? 0:02:44.130 --> 0:02:47.650 That's kind of more venting. Gossip is talking about someone 0:02:47.690 --> 0:02:49.850 else when not in the room. Venting is more about 0:02:49.850 --> 0:02:53.090 your own personal feelings about something. But venting can still 0:02:53.090 --> 0:02:56.130 be bad or dangerous, So like, proceed with caution. 0:02:56.450 --> 0:02:59.130 I just think even with the example you just gave, 0:03:00.290 --> 0:03:03.130 it's already shifted my mindset a little bit on gossiping 0:03:03.170 --> 0:03:05.810 and venting, because I think I already had perceived like 0:03:05.970 --> 0:03:08.570 venting isn't bad. But to your point, I think it's 0:03:08.570 --> 0:03:12.130 really important to call out venting can also be harmful. 0:03:12.530 --> 0:03:15.290 Like in the example you just gave, I actually felt 0:03:15.290 --> 0:03:17.610 like venting sounded worse than gossiping. 0:03:18.210 --> 0:03:21.610 Interesting, yes, yes, because venting in a way is still 0:03:21.650 --> 0:03:24.090 like it can still be bad. I think, so this 0:03:24.210 --> 0:03:25.610 is why it's super nuanced. 0:03:26.090 --> 0:03:28.770 Okay, So I went out on my Instagram and I asked, 0:03:29.330 --> 0:03:31.250 have you gossiped in the workplace? 0:03:31.530 --> 0:03:32.930 And it backfired? 0:03:33.690 --> 0:03:38.490 And thirty six percent of people said yes, fifty two 0:03:38.530 --> 0:03:41.290 percent of people said no, I do it in a 0:03:41.370 --> 0:03:46.210 considered way, and thirteen percent of people said no, I 0:03:46.250 --> 0:03:49.570 don't gossip at work, which that's strength. 0:03:50.410 --> 0:03:54.530 Yeah, or not really understanding the definition of gossip. But yes, 0:03:55.090 --> 0:03:57.210 did you get any stories about like the type of 0:03:57.250 --> 0:03:58.050 things that backfired? 0:03:58.290 --> 0:03:58.490 Yes? 0:03:58.610 --> 0:04:02.450 So then I said, if it backfired, what happened? The 0:04:02.570 --> 0:04:06.970 thing that I noticed? There is such a consistent theme 0:04:07.170 --> 0:04:11.730 in these messages. I would say ninety eight percent of 0:04:11.770 --> 0:04:16.330 the responses I got through about it backfiring or related 0:04:16.330 --> 0:04:20.289 to stories where there had been digital communication shared so 0:04:20.650 --> 0:04:26.370 Slack messages, teams, a Facebook group, a WhatsApp group, and 0:04:26.490 --> 0:04:29.810 people were accidentally added to the threads people wrote it 0:04:29.890 --> 0:04:31.050 in the wrong thread. 0:04:31.450 --> 0:04:33.930 We'll come back to that, but here's some of them verbatim. 0:04:34.450 --> 0:04:37.090 I was messaging a friend on teams about my manager, 0:04:37.410 --> 0:04:40.529 and she replied in the group chat. 0:04:41.050 --> 0:04:43.450 It's so easy for this to happen, right. 0:04:43.570 --> 0:04:44.450 Oh my god. 0:04:44.850 --> 0:04:49.770 Our team Facebook chat was access on a shared laptop 0:04:49.930 --> 0:04:51.370 with the person it was about. 0:04:51.730 --> 0:04:53.690 Yeah, this makes my stomach drop. 0:04:54.050 --> 0:05:00.210 Colleague was screen sharing with MS teams open accident and 0:05:00.290 --> 0:05:01.810 the manager saw us gossipy. 0:05:02.170 --> 0:05:05.730 Who Yes, I feel all of these I've I had 0:05:05.770 --> 0:05:07.650 near misses with all of them, so I like, I 0:05:07.690 --> 0:05:09.849 almost feel like, yes, I see myself in you. 0:05:10.130 --> 0:05:11.890 Holy shit. Oh. 0:05:12.290 --> 0:05:14.090 And I think the reason why I wanted to call 0:05:14.130 --> 0:05:17.610 out the consistency and the theme here is because I 0:05:17.690 --> 0:05:20.969 think this kind of comes back to one thing I 0:05:21.010 --> 0:05:24.849 personally hate about a platform like Slack, and it's the 0:05:24.970 --> 0:05:27.810 very casual nature of it, and it tricks you. It 0:05:27.890 --> 0:05:31.170 tricks you into feeling safe and like you don't have 0:05:31.330 --> 0:05:35.690 to think too hard about your delivery and what you're saying. 0:05:36.130 --> 0:05:38.570 And I think it creates this environment where maybe you 0:05:38.650 --> 0:05:41.930 think it's okay to start a channel and start bitching 0:05:42.010 --> 0:05:45.610 about your manager. And it's very important for people to remember. 0:05:45.810 --> 0:05:48.690 I just went into the admin settings of my own 0:05:48.770 --> 0:05:52.450 company's Slack account because I wanted to see if I 0:05:52.490 --> 0:05:57.450 had the ability to download private group threads. And I can, 0:05:57.970 --> 0:06:04.130 so your manager's founders' bosses are able to look into 0:06:04.170 --> 0:06:06.690 that kind of thing. Yeah, I want to, And I 0:06:06.730 --> 0:06:09.930 think it's like, you wouldn't send emails like this, you know. 0:06:10.570 --> 0:06:13.210 I think it's very important to remember that, and if 0:06:13.250 --> 0:06:16.850 you are gossiping or venting, do it in person. 0:06:17.690 --> 0:06:21.090 My boss always used to say, never write anything that 0:06:21.170 --> 0:06:23.770 you wouldn't be happy printed in the front page of 0:06:23.770 --> 0:06:26.250 the Sydney Morning Herald, for example. So this is the 0:06:26.290 --> 0:06:28.570 interesting part, though, Michelle, because we've just kind of given 0:06:28.650 --> 0:06:31.610 words of warning. But what's interesting about gossip is that 0:06:31.690 --> 0:06:34.250 it can be positive, which is why I think this 0:06:34.290 --> 0:06:37.130 episode's going to be so interesting for people. One thing 0:06:37.170 --> 0:06:40.810 before we dive in, Michelle, obviously, women gossip more than men. 0:06:41.050 --> 0:06:43.370 Do you know by how much? Like what percentage to 0:06:43.410 --> 0:06:44.450 women gossip more than men? 0:06:44.930 --> 0:06:46.010 No, I have no idea. 0:06:46.210 --> 0:06:49.529 It's actually a true question because it's zero. Women do 0:06:49.610 --> 0:06:52.210 not gossip more than men. And it's a stereotype that 0:06:52.250 --> 0:06:54.570 everyone thinks women gossip more, especially in the workplace, but 0:06:54.850 --> 0:06:57.370 it's actually not true. So men gossip just as much 0:06:57.410 --> 0:06:59.850 as women. By the end of this episode, you were 0:06:59.850 --> 0:07:03.090 going to know exactly how to gossip safely at work. 0:07:03.930 --> 0:07:07.130 You're gonna understand what a reputation ripple is. You're going 0:07:07.170 --> 0:07:09.010 to know how to get out of a gossip ye 0:07:09.010 --> 0:07:11.890 conversation without it being awkward, and you're going to know 0:07:11.970 --> 0:07:14.450 how to stop gossip on your team if you're a leader. 0:07:14.850 --> 0:07:18.530 So so if I shared some examples of when gossiping 0:07:18.610 --> 0:07:22.410 backfired for others, I am curious if that has ever 0:07:22.450 --> 0:07:22.930 happened to you. 0:07:23.290 --> 0:07:25.810 Yeah, I've been really caught out and just to the 0:07:25.810 --> 0:07:27.890 point around sort of like how easy it is to 0:07:27.890 --> 0:07:30.970 get sucked in, even almost without knowing that you are gossiping. 0:07:31.450 --> 0:07:34.370 So I had a very senior person at Google. She 0:07:34.410 --> 0:07:36.010 was actually the head of And it's fine for me 0:07:36.050 --> 0:07:37.250 to talk about it now because this is all in 0:07:37.250 --> 0:07:38.650 the past and it's all out in the open. 0:07:38.690 --> 0:07:41.330 But so she was the head of YouTube at the time, 0:07:41.490 --> 0:07:42.330 and she. 0:07:42.450 --> 0:07:44.570 Actually got a new job at Uber and I was 0:07:44.610 --> 0:07:46.450 one of the first people that she told in the company. 0:07:46.490 --> 0:07:48.850 We had a really good relationship, but I admired her 0:07:49.170 --> 0:07:51.170 so much. She's probably the leader I admired the most. 0:07:51.450 --> 0:07:52.170 So she told me. 0:07:52.650 --> 0:07:55.770 I casually, without even thinking about it, told my manager. 0:07:56.170 --> 0:07:58.050 He told her, oh my god, you're going to Uber. 0:07:58.210 --> 0:08:00.730 And then she got really upset because she hadn't told 0:08:00.770 --> 0:08:02.650 her team yet. So she had to come to me 0:08:02.690 --> 0:08:06.250 and she said, you told this and it's actually really 0:08:06.490 --> 0:08:09.170 potentially causing me some pain because I haven't even told 0:08:09.170 --> 0:08:09.810 my team yet. 0:08:10.250 --> 0:08:12.650 There was two lessons for me in that moment. One 0:08:12.690 --> 0:08:14.410 was she shouldn't. 0:08:14.010 --> 0:08:16.170 Have had to say you shouldn't share this, because I 0:08:16.210 --> 0:08:18.410 should have just known when someone shares information with you, 0:08:18.410 --> 0:08:19.970 you don't just go and share it with other people. 0:08:20.290 --> 0:08:22.490 They don't need to say don't tell anyone. That should 0:08:22.530 --> 0:08:25.050 be the default. And the second lesson I learned is 0:08:25.170 --> 0:08:28.770 she said something so interesting, which is it's okay, I 0:08:28.810 --> 0:08:32.689 know a secret is a hard burden to hold. So 0:08:32.730 --> 0:08:35.650 she actually acknowledged that sharing a secret with someone is 0:08:35.689 --> 0:08:37.810 actually a bit of a burden on them to keep, 0:08:38.090 --> 0:08:39.690 and I thought that was such a beautiful thing. And 0:08:39.730 --> 0:08:42.170 we have a very good relationship now. But I learned 0:08:42.210 --> 0:08:43.090 a lot in that moment. 0:08:43.330 --> 0:08:46.050 That's really fascinating because this will kind of come back 0:08:46.370 --> 0:08:49.930 later on in the episode. It's actually also an example 0:08:50.090 --> 0:08:54.690 of how leaders can sometimes model that gossiping is okay, 0:08:55.170 --> 0:08:57.490 and one of the ways they model that is by 0:08:57.530 --> 0:09:03.210 sharing confidential information with certain members of their team. So 0:09:03.810 --> 0:09:10.690 that's also another side to that. 0:09:15.490 --> 0:09:16.569 Okay, so I'm loving this. 0:09:16.970 --> 0:09:20.450 Soph is going to give us the case for gossip 0:09:21.050 --> 0:09:24.410 and the case against gossip. So let's see which comes 0:09:24.410 --> 0:09:27.530 out on top. So hit us with the good. 0:09:27.690 --> 0:09:32.930 So from an evolutionary perspective, gossip is partly to thank 0:09:33.090 --> 0:09:35.810 for the survival of the human race. For anyone who's 0:09:35.850 --> 0:09:38.170 read the book Sapiens, and now I'm not gonna lie 0:09:38.170 --> 0:09:40.570 to you, I didn't finish it, but I read enough 0:09:40.610 --> 0:09:44.930 to know this gossip actually helped humans to build trust 0:09:45.010 --> 0:09:47.730 and alliances and that's what helped our human race survive 0:09:47.810 --> 0:09:51.970 sort of thing. So basically it's the original LinkedIn. So, Michelle, 0:09:52.090 --> 0:09:56.010 if you swap the word gossip for the word information sharing, 0:09:56.410 --> 0:09:59.730 you can actually see how helpful it can be. So 0:10:00.170 --> 0:10:03.250 there's a huge amount of research that someone wonderfully string. 0:10:03.250 --> 0:10:05.450 Her name's Amy Gallo, and a lot of what we're 0:10:05.530 --> 0:10:07.410 talking about in the show is her work. If you 0:10:07.450 --> 0:10:09.610 don't follow her, we'll put her in the show notes. 0:10:09.970 --> 0:10:12.770 But she's doing some amazing work on how beneficial gossip 0:10:12.850 --> 0:10:15.410 can actually be in the workplace. But she talks a 0:10:15.450 --> 0:10:17.930 lot about this idea of social glue, so it can 0:10:17.970 --> 0:10:20.449 actually form and strengthen social bonds. 0:10:21.130 --> 0:10:23.170 And I love this when I heard it. 0:10:23.170 --> 0:10:26.650 It's actually a way for people to understand workplace norms 0:10:26.690 --> 0:10:28.650 and like what's okay, what's not okay? And I'm going 0:10:28.730 --> 0:10:31.090 to give some examples. And then the third one is 0:10:31.130 --> 0:10:34.730 that it helps people understand power dynamics, especially for people 0:10:34.770 --> 0:10:37.490 who are you know, have less status or power or 0:10:37.530 --> 0:10:41.610 even marginalized groups. Gossip and like information sharing is actually 0:10:41.610 --> 0:10:44.010 a way for them to understand how these power dynamics 0:10:44.050 --> 0:10:46.810 actually happen when they themselves don't have power. So I 0:10:46.810 --> 0:10:48.650 think it's very interesting. I'm just going to give a 0:10:48.690 --> 0:10:51.130 couple of examples because I think this really brings to 0:10:51.210 --> 0:10:55.610 life this idea of gossip as information sharing. So, for example, 0:10:55.930 --> 0:10:58.850 imagine your boss sort of sends you a weirdly worded 0:10:58.850 --> 0:11:00.730 email and you're not really sure what to make of it. 0:11:00.970 --> 0:11:02.610 You might turn to your work besty and be like 0:11:02.650 --> 0:11:04.770 how would you interpret this? Like how should I respond? 0:11:05.570 --> 0:11:08.290 So again, that can actually be helpful to you if 0:11:08.330 --> 0:11:10.410 you can imagine a situation where you know you're a 0:11:10.410 --> 0:11:13.050 team and another team keeps getting more budget and your 0:11:13.090 --> 0:11:15.530 team doesn't get the budget, and you're sitting around as 0:11:15.530 --> 0:11:17.970 a team kind of talking about and discussing like why 0:11:18.010 --> 0:11:20.290 does this team keep getting the budget? And talking about 0:11:20.290 --> 0:11:22.490 things that are happening over there. And then the other 0:11:22.570 --> 0:11:25.170 one that I think about a lot is I actually 0:11:25.170 --> 0:11:28.650 coach people, if you're going to present senior leaders, go 0:11:28.690 --> 0:11:30.730 and do background research on them, go and talk to 0:11:30.770 --> 0:11:32.810 their PA, go and talk to people that have worked 0:11:32.810 --> 0:11:34.410 with them, find out what they do and don't like, 0:11:34.450 --> 0:11:37.210 find out what is annoying for them in presentations. 0:11:37.730 --> 0:11:39.490 And that in a way is actually gossip. 0:11:39.530 --> 0:11:41.970 Like I'm encouraging people to gossip because they're getting information 0:11:42.010 --> 0:11:44.130 about someone when they're not in the room. But that 0:11:44.170 --> 0:11:45.970 can be so helpful because it means that you're going 0:11:46.010 --> 0:11:48.730 to be delivering a presentation that's so much more useful 0:11:48.810 --> 0:11:51.370 for that senior leader. So I think if you frame 0:11:51.410 --> 0:11:55.170 it as information sharing, it like helps you read the room. 0:11:55.370 --> 0:11:59.130 It helps you sort of understanding workplace norms and team norms. 0:11:59.770 --> 0:12:02.010 Imagine the case where someone says, oh, did you hear 0:12:02.050 --> 0:12:04.450 about what Jackson did in the meeting? He just, you know, 0:12:04.490 --> 0:12:07.330 spent the first ten minutes talking about his weekend, Like 0:12:07.370 --> 0:12:09.810 I wanted to cry. You're like, okay, well I'm not 0:12:09.850 --> 0:12:11.689 going to spend the first ten minutes of a meeting 0:12:11.770 --> 0:12:13.730 talking about my weekend. So you kind of learn what's 0:12:13.730 --> 0:12:16.250 okay and what's not okay. So I think it can 0:12:16.290 --> 0:12:17.050 be very helpful. 0:12:17.330 --> 0:12:17.929 I love this. 0:12:18.010 --> 0:12:22.929 I definitely can see it as survival. And this kind 0:12:22.930 --> 0:12:24.809 of ties back to what we spoke about at the 0:12:24.810 --> 0:12:27.210 start of the episode, where it's like, maybe gossiping just 0:12:27.290 --> 0:12:28.530 needs a bit of a rebrand. 0:12:29.050 --> 0:12:31.730 I just feel like information sharing is the start of that. 0:12:32.090 --> 0:12:34.650 Yeah, I think you're right, Michelle in the rebrand thing. 0:12:34.690 --> 0:12:37.170 And I think it's because we always think all gossip 0:12:37.210 --> 0:12:39.890 is bad and actually some gossip can be good. 0:12:40.170 --> 0:12:41.170 So Amy Gallo. 0:12:41.010 --> 0:12:44.290 Actually talks about this idea of positive gossip, and that 0:12:44.530 --> 0:12:48.370 is sharing compliments behind someone's back. So if someone does 0:12:48.370 --> 0:12:51.650 something amazing in a client meeting, no one else is 0:12:51.650 --> 0:12:53.730 going to know about it. That's not their kind of thing. 0:12:53.850 --> 0:12:56.290 And people, you know, we're often not good at talking 0:12:56.290 --> 0:12:58.569 about the things that are great about us, especially women. 0:12:59.090 --> 0:13:02.130 So to go to your manager and say, like, Michelle 0:13:02.170 --> 0:13:04.610 just totally slayd that client meeting. Here's some things that 0:13:04.690 --> 0:13:07.370 she did, it starts this thing which I love and 0:13:07.370 --> 0:13:09.050 it's one of the things that I love doing so 0:13:09.210 --> 0:13:13.010 much at work. It's starting this reputation ripple for someone. 0:13:13.370 --> 0:13:16.130 If I go and share, like Michelle is actually so 0:13:16.330 --> 0:13:20.650 good at data analysis and just like bringing human insights 0:13:20.690 --> 0:13:23.130 to life and the client just loved it. You're then 0:13:23.170 --> 0:13:26.010 starting to get this reputation as the data person and 0:13:26.050 --> 0:13:27.970 that can really grow for people if that's something that 0:13:28.010 --> 0:13:30.090 you want. So I think you can really build this 0:13:30.170 --> 0:13:33.250 reputation ripple for someone. Do it in a positive way 0:13:33.330 --> 0:13:35.690 and not the opposite in a negative way, because that 0:13:35.730 --> 0:13:37.610 can also you know, people attach themselves. 0:13:37.650 --> 0:13:40.370 We've got all these biases. So I really loved. 0:13:40.210 --> 0:13:42.089 Doing that for people at work. And this idea of 0:13:42.130 --> 0:13:43.370 positive gossip. 0:13:43.170 --> 0:13:45.970 This also reminds me of something else that you've brought up, 0:13:46.450 --> 0:13:49.970 and it's actually then like passing that feedback onto people. 0:13:50.090 --> 0:13:53.090 And so often someone will do good work or you'll 0:13:53.090 --> 0:13:55.730 think something someone shared in a meeting was great, and 0:13:55.770 --> 0:13:59.050 it'll just never get back to that person. So this 0:13:59.170 --> 0:14:01.490 is kind of fostering that. And it's like, if you 0:14:01.530 --> 0:14:04.530 are having those side conversations, if you are starting those 0:14:04.570 --> 0:14:08.090 reputation ripples, like screenshot that conversation and share it with 0:14:08.130 --> 0:14:10.170 the person you know, Yeah, make it the. 0:14:10.130 --> 0:14:12.010 Good stuff that's so true. 0:14:12.330 --> 0:14:16.449 Don't accidentally get caught out bad mouthing someone like deliberately 0:14:16.930 --> 0:14:21.330 share positive gossip. I love that when gossip is never 0:14:21.410 --> 0:14:25.250 okay is when your primary intention is to hurt someone 0:14:25.530 --> 0:14:28.010 like never okay. And if you look at the extreme 0:14:28.050 --> 0:14:32.250 of gossip, it can be so toxic. It can completely 0:14:32.410 --> 0:14:36.610 tear down organizations. It can really damage people's not just 0:14:36.690 --> 0:14:39.410 their reputation, but you know, people leave jobs because of 0:14:39.490 --> 0:14:42.290 things that are being gossiped about them. It can be 0:14:42.330 --> 0:14:45.210 so damaging and so hurtful when it is about you, 0:14:45.610 --> 0:14:47.690 When you are the gossiper and you get caught out, 0:14:47.730 --> 0:14:50.530 it can completely you know, end your career as well. 0:14:50.570 --> 0:14:55.090 So at the extreme level it's properly dangerous. But on 0:14:55.130 --> 0:14:57.530 the less extreme and probably more frequent, the thing that 0:14:57.570 --> 0:15:01.490 I've seen happen so much, Michelle, it's this idea of 0:15:01.970 --> 0:15:06.290 the invisible reputation killer and what it is that people 0:15:06.290 --> 0:15:09.690 will gossip and they think it's not really getting around, 0:15:09.850 --> 0:15:12.250 it's not really getting to other people because it never 0:15:12.290 --> 0:15:14.250 really gets back to them. It's rare that someone goes 0:15:14.250 --> 0:15:16.730 back and says, by the way, you know that thing 0:15:16.730 --> 0:15:19.170 that you said, Now everyone's talking about it and everyone 0:15:19.250 --> 0:15:22.490 knows that you spread that. But you just start to 0:15:22.490 --> 0:15:25.130 build up this reputation of being a gossip and being 0:15:25.170 --> 0:15:29.050 someone who is maybe constantly complaining and you're like always 0:15:29.050 --> 0:15:31.570 saying bad things about other people. I've really seen it 0:15:31.650 --> 0:15:35.690 damage people's relationships. So it can be this invisible reputation 0:15:35.890 --> 0:15:39.130 killer and it can make you look really immature. So 0:15:39.530 --> 0:15:42.250 that's the main thing that I've seen, especially with young people, 0:15:42.570 --> 0:15:44.530 is this immaturity sort of thing. 0:15:44.610 --> 0:15:46.290 And I think the main thing that you need to 0:15:46.330 --> 0:15:48.450 understand is this. 0:15:48.330 --> 0:15:50.530 Is a truth no matter what company you're at, no 0:15:50.570 --> 0:15:51.370 matter what country. 0:15:52.330 --> 0:15:53.530 Message to junior people. 0:15:53.730 --> 0:15:56.770 Senior people know what's going on down on your level 0:15:56.850 --> 0:16:00.330 way more than you think. And senior people, junior people 0:16:00.330 --> 0:16:02.410 know what's going on on your level way more than 0:16:02.450 --> 0:16:05.090 you think. So, like the gossip just gets shared around, 0:16:05.130 --> 0:16:08.010 and I think people underestimate how much people are sharing it. 0:16:08.610 --> 0:16:12.930 Everyone gossips. Do younger people gossip more? Interestingly? 0:16:13.090 --> 0:16:16.530 I did the research on this and it's slightly Yes, 0:16:17.130 --> 0:16:20.370 partly it's an age thing, but also partly it's back 0:16:20.410 --> 0:16:23.690 to this point of like people in lower positions can 0:16:23.730 --> 0:16:26.650 be more vulnerable to negative gossip. They have less power 0:16:26.650 --> 0:16:29.050 and they have less information. In a way, yeah, one 0:16:29.130 --> 0:16:29.770 hundred percent. 0:16:29.890 --> 0:16:34.290 I think it comes back to transparency and clarity and 0:16:34.330 --> 0:16:37.610 if you're leaving gaps in information, then people will just 0:16:37.650 --> 0:16:40.250 fill in the blanks for themselves exactly, and so I 0:16:40.250 --> 0:16:44.810 think that's probably why the gossip might take slightly different 0:16:45.170 --> 0:16:48.770 shapes on different levels. But yeah, this is what I 0:16:48.890 --> 0:16:51.490 really want to get into next, and it's the fact 0:16:51.570 --> 0:16:57.490 that gossiping can also be a result of poor leadership 0:16:58.010 --> 0:17:01.250 and a toxic work environment, and it really should be 0:17:01.250 --> 0:17:05.290 a wake up call to leaders, not necessarily to employees 0:17:05.649 --> 0:17:09.330 if gossip is rampant in your organization. So let's get 0:17:09.369 --> 0:17:23.409 into why companies are partially to blame next. Okay, so 0:17:23.770 --> 0:17:27.969 gossip is usually a symptom of something else going on 0:17:28.250 --> 0:17:32.490 in an organization. So I think it's really important if 0:17:32.490 --> 0:17:34.930 there is a lot of gossip going on and you're 0:17:35.130 --> 0:17:39.570 a leader, founder, exec, whatever it is, to kind of 0:17:39.730 --> 0:17:44.170 check yourself a little bit and see maybe if you're 0:17:44.730 --> 0:17:47.970 partially to blame, or if there's something going on at 0:17:48.050 --> 0:17:51.850 senior levels which needs to change to improve the way 0:17:51.930 --> 0:17:54.330 gossip is going down in your organization, if it is 0:17:54.410 --> 0:17:57.330 more of the negative side of things. So there's a 0:17:57.330 --> 0:18:02.010 few reasons why companies are partially to blame. The first 0:18:02.050 --> 0:18:05.930 one is lack of transparency. So I think I mentioned 0:18:05.930 --> 0:18:10.410 this before. When there is lack of transparency, employees will 0:18:10.450 --> 0:18:13.610 just fill in the blanks and creativity will kick in 0:18:13.810 --> 0:18:16.690 and they can take it any which way. So as 0:18:16.690 --> 0:18:21.369 a leader, you really need to be shaping the narrative yourself. 0:18:21.530 --> 0:18:23.250 So I don't know, I just feel like it makes 0:18:23.250 --> 0:18:23.930 so much sense. 0:18:23.970 --> 0:18:24.490 Oh my god. 0:18:24.690 --> 0:18:28.210 Think about anytime there's like company restructure or redundancies, when 0:18:28.370 --> 0:18:30.290 no one's sharing any information at the top. 0:18:30.130 --> 0:18:32.770 And that's been gossip is the most rife. 0:18:32.490 --> 0:18:34.570 One hundred percent, And like a way to combat that 0:18:34.850 --> 0:18:38.890 is like bring your team in on your challenges. That's 0:18:38.930 --> 0:18:42.130 like a very good way to make people feel valued, appreciated, 0:18:42.250 --> 0:18:45.889 herd and to shut those like rumor mills down. The 0:18:46.050 --> 0:18:51.210 second one is managers who play favorites, so employees might 0:18:51.450 --> 0:18:55.730 gossip as a response to injustice, Like if they see 0:18:55.730 --> 0:18:59.810 people getting promotions or pay rises and they don't understand it, 0:19:00.250 --> 0:19:04.370 people will speculate. So that's kind of a simple one 0:19:04.410 --> 0:19:09.930 as well, like being very transparent around performance reviews, rating systems, 0:19:10.330 --> 0:19:13.690 bringing people in on that information and kind of arming 0:19:13.730 --> 0:19:17.850 them with the tools themselves to like know what's rewarded 0:19:17.890 --> 0:19:22.209 and why, will shut that down. The third one, and 0:19:22.290 --> 0:19:25.530 I just like this is what I personally felt is 0:19:25.970 --> 0:19:29.530 low morale or just a toxic culture. So when people 0:19:29.570 --> 0:19:34.490 don't feel appreciated, or they feel undervalued, or they're overworked, 0:19:35.210 --> 0:19:39.570 they can turn to gossiping as a coping mechanism. And like, 0:19:39.770 --> 0:19:43.570 I've definitely experienced this where you just feel like you're 0:19:43.690 --> 0:19:47.570 not appreciated and you're almost trying to suss out does 0:19:47.609 --> 0:19:51.209 anyone else feel that way as well? Like is this 0:19:51.410 --> 0:19:54.129 just a me thing? Or like are we all copying 0:19:54.170 --> 0:19:56.210 the rough end of the stick here? And then once 0:19:56.290 --> 0:19:59.170 you realize like someone else has experienced that or they've 0:19:59.210 --> 0:20:02.649 had encounters with that, it can just create this vortex 0:20:02.810 --> 0:20:07.810 of like you venting and gossip being about how fucked 0:20:07.890 --> 0:20:09.730 you think the environment you're in is. 0:20:10.370 --> 0:20:13.290 It's so true, and I'm just thinking, like, at organizations 0:20:13.330 --> 0:20:16.130 the goal is not to completely stamp out gossip at all, 0:20:16.210 --> 0:20:18.530 but I think you monitor it so like if you're 0:20:18.570 --> 0:20:22.050 seeing gossip rising or it's getting more toxic, you really 0:20:22.090 --> 0:20:24.090 do need to try and change that. 0:20:24.570 --> 0:20:25.770 But it also is super hard. 0:20:25.810 --> 0:20:28.369