Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm Ama Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Biz Your Work Life Sorted. I'm
Speaker 2: em Burnham and today we are diving into a topic
Speaker 2: that's probably happening in your workplace right now, office gossip.
Speaker 2: So you know the feeling when you're in the breakroom
Speaker 2: and someone kind of leans into you and tells you
Speaker 2: the latest office drama literally my dream scenario. Or when
Speaker 2: you accidentally get added to a Slack thread that definitely
Speaker 2: wasn't meant for your eyes and you think you're being
Speaker 2: a bit ghosted when they suddenly deleted it.
Speaker 1: We've all been.
Speaker 2: There, But today our career coaches Michelle Batisby and Sophurst
Speaker 2: are breaking down the surprising science behind workplace gossip, including
Speaker 2: why it might actually be good for your career, yes really,
Speaker 2: and how to navigate it without damaging your reputation. Plus,
Speaker 2: Michelle's going to share her four point framework for identifying
Speaker 2: when gossip crosses the line from hell full information sharing
Speaker 2: to toxic behavior. And trust me, you are going to
Speaker 2: want to take notes on this because I definitely did so.
Speaker 3: Michelle.
Speaker 4: I am obsessed with this topic because I think it's
Speaker 4: so nuanced, there's so much gray area, which is why
Speaker 4: I love debating it. And I think we're all taught
Speaker 4: that gossip at work is bad, right, That's what we're
Speaker 4: all taught, But is it really And also, if you're gossiping,
Speaker 4: is it even your fault? So this is what we're
Speaker 4: going to get into today. We've got a really juicy episode, Michelle.
Speaker 4: I've seen gossip completely derail people's careers, but I've also
Speaker 4: seen it help them get promoted. So I'm really excited
Speaker 4: to talk to you about this. Before we dive in,
Speaker 4: I just want to ask you a question. Do you
Speaker 4: know the difference between gossiping and venting?
Speaker 5: I feel like gossiping has a bit more of a
Speaker 5: negative association with it, but maybe gossiping also needs a
Speaker 5: bit of a rebrand, like that might not even be right,
Speaker 5: But I feel like venting is more about how you feel,
Speaker 5: and gossiping might be about others, And I think the
Speaker 5: about others is like why it has a bit of
Speaker 5: a negative connotation. But to your point, like it might
Speaker 5: not always be bad.
Speaker 3: You're exactly right.
Speaker 4: So gossiping is informal talk about someone else when they're
Speaker 4: not in the room, and it can actually be positive, neutral,
Speaker 4: or negative. So an example of gossip would be, you know,
Speaker 4: Sam moved the meeting again. It's the third time this week.
Speaker 4: I wonder what's really going on. Venting is expressing your
Speaker 4: own personal feelings or frustration, sort of with the goal
Speaker 4: of like seeking understanding or like solving the problem in
Speaker 4: a way. So that would be like, ugh, Sam moved
Speaker 4: the meeting again. You know they're always doing this. Now
Speaker 4: my day's messed up? Should I say something? What do
Speaker 4: you think?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 4: That's kind of more venting. Gossip is talking about someone
Speaker 4: else when not in the room. Venting is more about
Speaker 4: your own personal feelings about something. But venting can still
Speaker 4: be bad or dangerous, So like, proceed with caution.
Speaker 5: I just think even with the example you just gave,
Speaker 5: it's already shifted my mindset a little bit on gossiping
Speaker 5: and venting, because I think I already had perceived like
Speaker 5: venting isn't bad. But to your point, I think it's
Speaker 5: really important to call out venting can also be harmful.
Speaker 5: Like in the example you just gave, I actually felt
Speaker 5: like venting sounded worse than gossiping.
Speaker 4: Interesting, yes, yes, because venting in a way is still
Speaker 4: like it can still be bad. I think, so this
Speaker 4: is why it's super nuanced.
Speaker 5: Okay, So I went out on my Instagram and I asked,
Speaker 5: have you gossiped in the workplace?
Speaker 1: And it backfired?
Speaker 5: And thirty six percent of people said yes, fifty two
Speaker 5: percent of people said no, I do it in a
Speaker 5: considered way, and thirteen percent of people said no, I
Speaker 5: don't gossip at work, which that's strength.
Speaker 4: Yeah, or not really understanding the definition of gossip. But yes,
Speaker 4: did you get any stories about like the type of
Speaker 4: things that backfired?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 5: So then I said, if it backfired, what happened? The
Speaker 5: thing that I noticed? There is such a consistent theme
Speaker 5: in these messages. I would say ninety eight percent of
Speaker 5: the responses I got through about it backfiring or related
Speaker 5: to stories where there had been digital communication shared so
Speaker 5: Slack messages, teams, a Facebook group, a WhatsApp group, and
Speaker 5: people were accidentally added to the threads people wrote it
Speaker 5: in the wrong thread.
Speaker 1: We'll come back to that, but here's some of them verbatim.
Speaker 5: I was messaging a friend on teams about my manager,
Speaker 5: and she replied in the group chat.
Speaker 3: It's so easy for this to happen, right.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 5: Our team Facebook chat was access on a shared laptop
Speaker 5: with the person it was about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this makes my stomach drop.
Speaker 5: Colleague was screen sharing with MS teams open accident and
Speaker 5: the manager saw us gossipy.
Speaker 4: Who Yes, I feel all of these I've I had
Speaker 4: near misses with all of them, so I like, I
Speaker 4: almost feel like, yes, I see myself in you.
Speaker 1: Holy shit. Oh.
Speaker 5: And I think the reason why I wanted to call
Speaker 5: out the consistency and the theme here is because I
Speaker 5: think this kind of comes back to one thing I
Speaker 5: personally hate about a platform like Slack, and it's the
Speaker 5: very casual nature of it, and it tricks you. It
Speaker 5: tricks you into feeling safe and like you don't have
Speaker 5: to think too hard about your delivery and what you're saying.
Speaker 5: And I think it creates this environment where maybe you
Speaker 5: think it's okay to start a channel and start bitching
Speaker 5: about your manager. And it's very important for people to remember.
Speaker 5: I just went into the admin settings of my own
Speaker 5: company's Slack account because I wanted to see if I
Speaker 5: had the ability to download private group threads. And I can,
Speaker 5: so your manager's founders' bosses are able to look into
Speaker 5: that kind of thing. Yeah, I want to, And I
Speaker 5: think it's like, you wouldn't send emails like this, you know.
Speaker 5: I think it's very important to remember that, and if
Speaker 5: you are gossiping or venting, do it in person.
Speaker 4: My boss always used to say, never write anything that
Speaker 4: you wouldn't be happy printed in the front page of
Speaker 4: the Sydney Morning Herald, for example. So this is the
Speaker 4: interesting part, though, Michelle, because we've just kind of given
Speaker 4: words of warning. But what's interesting about gossip is that
Speaker 4: it can be positive, which is why I think this
Speaker 4: episode's going to be so interesting for people. One thing
Speaker 4: before we dive in, Michelle, obviously, women gossip more than men.
Speaker 4: Do you know by how much? Like what percentage to
Speaker 4: women gossip more than men?
Speaker 1: No, I have no idea.
Speaker 4: It's actually a true question because it's zero. Women do
Speaker 4: not gossip more than men. And it's a stereotype that
Speaker 4: everyone thinks women gossip more, especially in the workplace, but
Speaker 4: it's actually not true. So men gossip just as much
Speaker 4: as women. By the end of this episode, you were
Speaker 4: going to know exactly how to gossip safely at work.
Speaker 4: You're gonna understand what a reputation ripple is. You're going
Speaker 4: to know how to get out of a gossip ye
Speaker 4: conversation without it being awkward, and you're going to know
Speaker 4: how to stop gossip on your team if you're a leader.
Speaker 5: So so if I shared some examples of when gossiping
Speaker 5: backfired for others, I am curious if that has ever
Speaker 5: happened to you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've been really caught out and just to the
Speaker 4: point around sort of like how easy it is to
Speaker 4: get sucked in, even almost without knowing that you are gossiping.
Speaker 4: So I had a very senior person at Google. She
Speaker 4: was actually the head of And it's fine for me
Speaker 4: to talk about it now because this is all in
Speaker 4: the past and it's all out in the open.
Speaker 3: But so she was the head of YouTube at the time,
Speaker 3: and she.
Speaker 4: Actually got a new job at Uber and I was
Speaker 4: one of the first people that she told in the company.
Speaker 4: We had a really good relationship, but I admired her
Speaker 4: so much. She's probably the leader I admired the most.
Speaker 3: So she told me.
Speaker 4: I casually, without even thinking about it, told my manager.
Speaker 4: He told her, oh my god, you're going to Uber.
Speaker 4: And then she got really upset because she hadn't told
Speaker 4: her team yet. So she had to come to me
Speaker 4: and she said, you told this and it's actually really
Speaker 4: potentially causing me some pain because I haven't even told
Speaker 4: my team yet.
Speaker 3: There was two lessons for me in that moment. One
Speaker 3: was she shouldn't.
Speaker 4: Have had to say you shouldn't share this, because I
Speaker 4: should have just known when someone shares information with you,
Speaker 4: you don't just go and share it with other people.
Speaker 4: They don't need to say don't tell anyone. That should
Speaker 4: be the default. And the second lesson I learned is
Speaker 4: she said something so interesting, which is it's okay, I
Speaker 4: know a secret is a hard burden to hold. So
Speaker 4: she actually acknowledged that sharing a secret with someone is
Speaker 4: actually a bit of a burden on them to keep,
Speaker 4: and I thought that was such a beautiful thing. And
Speaker 4: we have a very good relationship now. But I learned
Speaker 4: a lot in that moment.
Speaker 5: That's really fascinating because this will kind of come back
Speaker 5: later on in the episode. It's actually also an example
Speaker 5: of how leaders can sometimes model that gossiping is okay,
Speaker 5: and one of the ways they model that is by
Speaker 5: sharing confidential information with certain members of their team. So
Speaker 5: that's also another side to that.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm loving this.
Speaker 5: Soph is going to give us the case for gossip
Speaker 5: and the case against gossip. So let's see which comes
Speaker 5: out on top. So hit us with the good.
Speaker 4: So from an evolutionary perspective, gossip is partly to thank
Speaker 4: for the survival of the human race. For anyone who's
Speaker 4: read the book Sapiens, and now I'm not gonna lie
Speaker 4: to you, I didn't finish it, but I read enough
Speaker 4: to know this gossip actually helped humans to build trust
Speaker 4: and alliances and that's what helped our human race survive
Speaker 4: sort of thing. So basically it's the original LinkedIn. So, Michelle,
Speaker 4: if you swap the word gossip for the word information sharing,
Speaker 4: you can actually see how helpful it can be. So
Speaker 4: there's a huge amount of research that someone wonderfully string.
Speaker 4: Her name's Amy Gallo, and a lot of what we're
Speaker 4: talking about in the show is her work. If you
Speaker 4: don't follow her, we'll put her in the show notes.
Speaker 4: But she's doing some amazing work on how beneficial gossip
Speaker 4: can actually be in the workplace. But she talks a
Speaker 4: lot about this idea of social glue, so it can
Speaker 4: actually form and strengthen social bonds.
Speaker 3: And I love this when I heard it.
Speaker 4: It's actually a way for people to understand workplace norms
Speaker 4: and like what's okay, what's not okay? And I'm going
Speaker 4: to give some examples. And then the third one is
Speaker 4: that it helps people understand power dynamics, especially for people
Speaker 4: who are you know, have less status or power or
Speaker 4: even marginalized groups. Gossip and like information sharing is actually
Speaker 4: a way for them to understand how these power dynamics
Speaker 4: actually happen when they themselves don't have power. So I
Speaker 4: think it's very interesting. I'm just going to give a
Speaker 4: couple of examples because I think this really brings to
Speaker 4: life this idea of gossip as information sharing. So, for example,
Speaker 4: imagine your boss sort of sends you a weirdly worded
Speaker 4: email and you're not really sure what to make of it.
Speaker 4: You might turn to your work besty and be like
Speaker 4: how would you interpret this? Like how should I respond?
Speaker 4: So again, that can actually be helpful to you if
Speaker 4: you can imagine a situation where you know you're a
Speaker 4: team and another team keeps getting more budget and your
Speaker 4: team doesn't get the budget, and you're sitting around as
Speaker 4: a team kind of talking about and discussing like why
Speaker 4: does this team keep getting the budget? And talking about
Speaker 4: things that are happening over there. And then the other
Speaker 4: one that I think about a lot is I actually
Speaker 4: coach people, if you're going to present senior leaders, go
Speaker 4: and do background research on them, go and talk to
Speaker 4: their PA, go and talk to people that have worked
Speaker 4: with them, find out what they do and don't like,
Speaker 4: find out what is annoying for them in presentations.
Speaker 3: And that in a way is actually gossip.
Speaker 4: Like I'm encouraging people to gossip because they're getting information
Speaker 4: about someone when they're not in the room. But that
Speaker 4: can be so helpful because it means that you're going
Speaker 4: to be delivering a presentation that's so much more useful
Speaker 4: for that senior leader. So I think if you frame
Speaker 4: it as information sharing, it like helps you read the room.
Speaker 4: It helps you sort of understanding workplace norms and team norms.
Speaker 4: Imagine the case where someone says, oh, did you hear
Speaker 4: about what Jackson did in the meeting? He just, you know,
Speaker 4: spent the first ten minutes talking about his weekend, Like
Speaker 4: I wanted to cry. You're like, okay, well I'm not
Speaker 4: going to spend the first ten minutes of a meeting
Speaker 4: talking about my weekend. So you kind of learn what's
Speaker 4: okay and what's not okay. So I think it can
Speaker 4: be very helpful.
Speaker 1: I love this.
Speaker 5: I definitely can see it as survival. And this kind
Speaker 5: of ties back to what we spoke about at the
Speaker 5: start of the episode, where it's like, maybe gossiping just
Speaker 5: needs a bit of a rebrand.
Speaker 1: I just feel like information sharing is the start of that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're right, Michelle in the rebrand thing.
Speaker 4: And I think it's because we always think all gossip
Speaker 4: is bad and actually some gossip can be good.
Speaker 3: So Amy Gallo.
Speaker 4: Actually talks about this idea of positive gossip, and that
Speaker 4: is sharing compliments behind someone's back. So if someone does
Speaker 4: something amazing in a client meeting, no one else is
Speaker 4: going to know about it. That's not their kind of thing.
Speaker 4: And people, you know, we're often not good at talking
Speaker 4: about the things that are great about us, especially women.
Speaker 4: So to go to your manager and say, like, Michelle
Speaker 4: just totally slayd that client meeting. Here's some things that
Speaker 4: she did, it starts this thing which I love and
Speaker 4: it's one of the things that I love doing so
Speaker 4: much at work. It's starting this reputation ripple for someone.
Speaker 4: If I go and share, like Michelle is actually so
Speaker 4: good at data analysis and just like bringing human insights
Speaker 4: to life and the client just loved it. You're then
Speaker 4: starting to get this reputation as the data person and
Speaker 4: that can really grow for people if that's something that
Speaker 4: you want. So I think you can really build this
Speaker 4: reputation ripple for someone. Do it in a positive way
Speaker 4: and not the opposite in a negative way, because that
Speaker 4: can also you know, people attach themselves.
Speaker 3: We've got all these biases. So I really loved.
Speaker 4: Doing that for people at work. And this idea of
Speaker 4: positive gossip.
Speaker 5: This also reminds me of something else that you've brought up,
Speaker 5: and it's actually then like passing that feedback onto people.
Speaker 5: And so often someone will do good work or you'll
Speaker 5: think something someone shared in a meeting was great, and
Speaker 5: it'll just never get back to that person. So this
Speaker 5: is kind of fostering that. And it's like, if you
Speaker 5: are having those side conversations, if you are starting those
Speaker 5: reputation ripples, like screenshot that conversation and share it with
Speaker 5: the person you know, Yeah, make it the.
Speaker 3: Good stuff that's so true.
Speaker 4: Don't accidentally get caught out bad mouthing someone like deliberately
Speaker 4: share positive gossip. I love that when gossip is never
Speaker 4: okay is when your primary intention is to hurt someone
Speaker 4: like never okay. And if you look at the extreme
Speaker 4: of gossip, it can be so toxic. It can completely
Speaker 4: tear down organizations. It can really damage people's not just
Speaker 4: their reputation, but you know, people leave jobs because of
Speaker 4: things that are being gossiped about them. It can be
Speaker 4: so damaging and so hurtful when it is about you,
Speaker 4: When you are the gossiper and you get caught out,
Speaker 4: it can completely you know, end your career as well.
Speaker 4: So at the extreme level it's properly dangerous. But on
Speaker 4: the less extreme and probably more frequent, the thing that
Speaker 4: I've seen happen so much, Michelle, it's this idea of
Speaker 4: the invisible reputation killer and what it is that people
Speaker 4: will gossip and they think it's not really getting around,
Speaker 4: it's not really getting to other people because it never
Speaker 4: really gets back to them. It's rare that someone goes
Speaker 4: back and says, by the way, you know that thing
Speaker 4: that you said, Now everyone's talking about it and everyone
Speaker 4: knows that you spread that. But you just start to
Speaker 4: build up this reputation of being a gossip and being
Speaker 4: someone who is maybe constantly complaining and you're like always
Speaker 4: saying bad things about other people. I've really seen it
Speaker 4: damage people's relationships. So it can be this invisible reputation
Speaker 4: killer and it can make you look really immature. So
Speaker 4: that's the main thing that I've seen, especially with young people,
Speaker 4: is this immaturity sort of thing.
Speaker 3: And I think the main thing that you need to
Speaker 3: understand is this.
Speaker 4: Is a truth no matter what company you're at, no
Speaker 4: matter what country.
Speaker 3: Message to junior people.
Speaker 4: Senior people know what's going on down on your level
Speaker 4: way more than you think. And senior people, junior people
Speaker 4: know what's going on on your level way more than
Speaker 4: you think. So, like the gossip just gets shared around,
Speaker 4: and I think people underestimate how much people are sharing it.
Speaker 3: Everyone gossips. Do younger people gossip more? Interestingly?
Speaker 4: I did the research on this and it's slightly Yes,
Speaker 4: partly it's an age thing, but also partly it's back
Speaker 4: to this point of like people in lower positions can
Speaker 4: be more vulnerable to negative gossip. They have less power
Speaker 4: and they have less information. In a way, yeah, one
Speaker 4: hundred percent.
Speaker 5: I think it comes back to transparency and clarity and
Speaker 5: if you're leaving gaps in information, then people will just
Speaker 5: fill in the blanks for themselves exactly, and so I
Speaker 5: think that's probably why the gossip might take slightly different
Speaker 5: shapes on different levels. But yeah, this is what I
Speaker 5: really want to get into next, and it's the fact
Speaker 5: that gossiping can also be a result of poor leadership
Speaker 5: and a toxic work environment, and it really should be
Speaker 5: a wake up call to leaders, not necessarily to employees
Speaker 5: if gossip is rampant in your organization. So let's get
Speaker 5: into why companies are partially to blame next. Okay, so
Speaker 5: gossip is usually a symptom of something else going on
Speaker 5: in an organization. So I think it's really important if
Speaker 5: there is a lot of gossip going on and you're
Speaker 5: a leader, founder, exec, whatever it is, to kind of
Speaker 5: check yourself a little bit and see maybe if you're
Speaker 5: partially to blame, or if there's something going on at
Speaker 5: senior levels which needs to change to improve the way
Speaker 5: gossip is going down in your organization, if it is
Speaker 5: more of the negative side of things. So there's a
Speaker 5: few reasons why companies are partially to blame. The first
Speaker 5: one is lack of transparency. So I think I mentioned
Speaker 5: this before. When there is lack of transparency, employees will
Speaker 5: just fill in the blanks and creativity will kick in
Speaker 5: and they can take it any which way. So as
Speaker 5: a leader, you really need to be shaping the narrative yourself.
Speaker 5: So I don't know, I just feel like it makes
Speaker 5: so much sense.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 4: Think about anytime there's like company restructure or redundancies, when
Speaker 4: no one's sharing any information at the top.
Speaker 3: And that's been gossip is the most rife.
Speaker 5: One hundred percent, And like a way to combat that
Speaker 5: is like bring your team in on your challenges. That's
Speaker 5: like a very good way to make people feel valued, appreciated,
Speaker 5: herd and to shut those like rumor mills down. The
Speaker 5: second one is managers who play favorites, so employees might
Speaker 5: gossip as a response to injustice, Like if they see
Speaker 5: people getting promotions or pay rises and they don't understand it,
Speaker 5: people will speculate. So that's kind of a simple one
Speaker 5: as well, like being very transparent around performance reviews, rating systems,
Speaker 5: bringing people in on that information and kind of arming
Speaker 5: them with the tools themselves to like know what's rewarded
Speaker 5: and why, will shut that down. The third one, and
Speaker 5: I just like this is what I personally felt is
Speaker 5: low morale or just a toxic culture. So when people
Speaker 5: don't feel appreciated, or they feel undervalued, or they're overworked,
Speaker 5: they can turn to gossiping as a coping mechanism. And like,
Speaker 5: I've definitely experienced this where you just feel like you're
Speaker 5: not appreciated and you're almost trying to suss out does
Speaker 5: anyone else feel that way as well? Like is this
Speaker 5: just a me thing? Or like are we all copying
Speaker 5: the rough end of the stick here? And then once
Speaker 5: you realize like someone else has experienced that or they've
Speaker 5: had encounters with that, it can just create this vortex
Speaker 5: of like you venting and gossip being about how fucked
Speaker 5: you think the environment you're in is.
Speaker 4: It's so true, and I'm just thinking, like, at organizations
Speaker 4: the goal is not to completely stamp out gossip at all,
Speaker 4: but I think you monitor it so like if you're
Speaker 4: seeing gossip rising or it's getting more toxic, you really
Speaker 4: do need to try and change that.
Speaker 3: But it also is super hard.
Speaker 4: I'm just thinking, even back to Google, like our leaders
Speaker 4: did all of those things right, and we just talk
Speaker 4: about it all the time, and people would still gossip
Speaker 4: and complain, invention, all that kind of stuff. So it's
Speaker 4: like it's going to happen, but it's watching the level
Speaker 4: when it just tips the scale and it's like fully toxic.
Speaker 4: And I think you know that as a leader.
Speaker 5: I totally agree, and I think that's like an important
Speaker 5: point to drive home as well. Like even in the
Speaker 5: best organizations and like this most squeaky clean bow on
Speaker 5: top of everything, like gossip is still going to exist.
Speaker 5: I think it's just human nature to your point, but yeah,
Speaker 5: it's the level at which it goes down.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 5: The fourth point is weak feedback. Loops and genuine opportunities
Speaker 5: to deliver would feedback. So if there isn't this culture
Speaker 5: of accountability and being able to share your frustrations and
Speaker 5: being able to seek help open and honestly, people just
Speaker 5: start whispering about their concerns. And this comes back to
Speaker 5: leaders modeling that from the top down. And I think
Speaker 5: this can be as simple as if you're a manager,
Speaker 5: just asking questions in your one to ones, like what's
Speaker 5: one thing I could do differently to make your job easier?
Speaker 5: That is a question that is easy for someone to
Speaker 5: respond to, but actually starts to dig into what any
Speaker 5: of their issues might actually be that they're not going
Speaker 5: to just bring up. If you say, do you have
Speaker 5: any feedback for me? Like get a bit more specific,
Speaker 5: what could I do differently to help you? It just
Speaker 5: starts showing that you're open to feedback, and it can
Speaker 5: be as simple as that, so you don't appear unapproachable.
Speaker 5: I saw a TikTok that kind of kicked off this
Speaker 5: whole train of thought for me because I was thinking
Speaker 5: about my own experiences with gossip inventing and when it
Speaker 5: was most toxic, and it definitely was in organizations where
Speaker 5: the leadership wasn't quite there. And I just think it's
Speaker 5: really important to point out. And this creator, whose handle
Speaker 5: is very, very nice, she just had two lines that
Speaker 5: I loved, and it was gossip is not a failure
Speaker 5: of your team. It's a leadership wake up call, and
Speaker 5: in the absence of clarity, the imagination will take over,
Speaker 5: which will always lead to gossip. I just think those
Speaker 5: are nice little prompts for people to think about and
Speaker 5: be aware of.
Speaker 4: So, Michelle, a very quick exercise that I love to
Speaker 4: do with the people that I work with is one
Speaker 4: rewind ten years.
Speaker 3: You're probably at high school, the people I work with,
Speaker 3: the gen z.
Speaker 4: You're at high school, think about your approach to gossip
Speaker 4: and information sharing. Now, think about how you feel about
Speaker 4: it now and how that has changed. Then I want
Speaker 4: you to go forward, think forward ten years. Think about
Speaker 4: people at your company or outside that are high quality people,
Speaker 4: people that you really respect. Then I get them to
Speaker 4: write down some words. Think about any words that you
Speaker 4: have that come to mind about this person. Now let's
Speaker 4: see does gossip does high drama come up? It never
Speaker 4: comes up because you find that the people that you
Speaker 4: respect and admire are not the gossips. And then the
Speaker 4: third thing we do is we watch this TikTok video
Speaker 4: which is basically about the difference between what rich people
Speaker 4: and broke people talk about, right, and then we build
Speaker 4: this connection. Basically, she says in the video, rich people
Speaker 4: talk about goals and ideas and like things they're doing
Speaker 4: self development, and broke people talk about people each other, drama,
Speaker 4: celebrity news. And the comparison that I draw not to
Speaker 4: say that you know, broke people gossip and rich people don't.
Speaker 3: It's not that.
Speaker 4: What I have observed in my twenty years of working
Speaker 4: in some really amazing places is that the best people
Speaker 4: are so excited about the work or their own personal growth,
Speaker 4: or like the big things the company is doing, they
Speaker 4: don't have time to gossip and just to talk about
Speaker 4: the bullshit that's going on. So I really try to channel.
Speaker 3: That with people.
Speaker 4: That's the three step exercise and we will link that
Speaker 4: TikTok in the show notes as well as the one
Speaker 4: that Michelle shared. And then finally how to gossip safely
Speaker 4: it work. So first of all, you're gonna ask yourself,
Speaker 4: what type of gossip is this positive? Negative, neutral? And
Speaker 4: why am I sharing it? If it's for the purpose
Speaker 4: of information sharing, maybe it's okay. If it's for the
Speaker 4: purpose of hurting someone, never okay. You want to be
Speaker 4: leaning into positive gossip if it makes sense. And then
Speaker 4: vent and vault. So if you need to vent, pick
Speaker 4: one person maximum two that you really trust, and that
Speaker 4: person is your vault. You do not go and vent
Speaker 4: to multiple people. It is always gonna undermine you.
Speaker 1: That's totally it.
Speaker 5: Like I do feel like sometimes that person that vault
Speaker 5: is like your lifeline. They're like how you survive, especially
Speaker 5: if you are in a tough environment. So I love
Speaker 5: that exactly.
Speaker 4: Venting you need it like it can be so healthy.
Speaker 4: You need to get stuff out. You can't bottle everything up.
Speaker 4: Pick your vault pay portrayal. So back to all the
Speaker 4: stuff MA show was sharing about slack DMS going over. Basically,
Speaker 4: if you need to say something bad, say it in
Speaker 4: person in a like closed door room where you feel
Speaker 4: very safe and no one's listening. Don't say it in
Speaker 4: a hallway, and don't say it on slack, And then
Speaker 4: think long term, So what would future you do? The
Speaker 4: word I always come back to is integrity. And I
Speaker 4: think to myself, you know, when you have the opportunity
Speaker 4: to gossip and you don't, when you have the opportunity
Speaker 4: to share a big secret and you don't, you create
Speaker 4: integrity for yourself and the person you're really trying to
Speaker 4: impress here is you. You can create so much self
Speaker 4: belief and you know it can do amazing things for
Speaker 4: yourself if you are the type of person that actually says,
Speaker 4: I'm not a gossip, I have integrity.
Speaker 1: Bring it back to that front page test and think
Speaker 1: long term.
Speaker 4: Exactly, and just the final point, because I think what
Speaker 4: undermines a lot of us as well is like we
Speaker 4: sort of get sucked into these gossipy conversations and you
Speaker 4: almost like don't know how to get out of them
Speaker 4: because it is a way of having social bonds and
Speaker 4: you don't want to be like the awkward person who's like, sorry,
Speaker 4: I didn't gossip. But then the two just like really
Speaker 4: helpful lines to get out of it, you know, instead
Speaker 4: of agreeing with the gossip or you know, adding to
Speaker 4: the gossip, you might say like, oh, I actually haven't
Speaker 4: seen that side of that person before, or you can
Speaker 4: pivot and just change the subjects, so like oh yeah,
Speaker 4: like you know, speaking of that meeting, did you hear
Speaker 4: about this new project? So just sort of trying to
Speaker 4: change the subject to something else.
Speaker 5: Americans do this thing where when they don't want to
Speaker 5: talk about something or they're not really giving you much,
Speaker 5: they'll just be like huh and it's like kind of
Speaker 5: this ending like ah okay, like this ending.
Speaker 1: Have you noticed that.
Speaker 5: They say like huh, Like it's like an ah a
Speaker 5: and it's like giving you nothing, but also almost like
Speaker 5: you don't know if they're agreeing or disagreeing, and it's
Speaker 5: almost like a full stop.
Speaker 3: Smart and then you're just questioning yourself like okay, maybe I.
Speaker 1: Should stopping now yes, seriously, all.
Speaker 3: Right on that note, that's the episode.
Speaker 1: Ha ha ha.
Speaker 2: So the biggest takeaway for me from this episode is
Speaker 2: that gossip isn't inherently bad, thank god. It is all
Speaker 2: about intention. Are you sharing information to help others navigate
Speaker 2: workplace dynamics or are you just trying to tear someone down.
Speaker 2: That's the key question that we should all be asking ourselves.
Speaker 2: If you want more insights on building positive workplace relationships,
Speaker 2: please check out this week's biz Newsletter, where Soph breaks
Speaker 2: down her three step exercise for becoming a more mature
Speaker 2: communicator at work. And also, don't forget to follow us
Speaker 2: on Instagram at biz by Mama Mia for daily career
Speaker 2: tips and behind the scenes content. I will catch you
Speaker 2: in Thursday's biz Inbox episode where we will answer all
Speaker 2: of your career dilemmas. Bye. Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional
Speaker 2: owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded
Speaker 2: on