1 00:00:05,646 --> 00:00:10,686 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast. 2 00:00:17,966 --> 00:00:21,566 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to a very special episode. 3 00:00:21,086 --> 00:00:22,206 Speaker 1: Of That's Incredible. 4 00:00:22,366 --> 00:00:25,646 Speaker 2: It's all about creativity, and you've got some different hosts today. 5 00:00:25,686 --> 00:00:26,006 Speaker 2: There's me. 6 00:00:26,166 --> 00:00:29,286 Speaker 3: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Mia Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 7 00:00:29,326 --> 00:00:31,846 Speaker 2: And we're usually the hosts of Mom and Mia out Loud, 8 00:00:31,886 --> 00:00:35,126 Speaker 2: but that's not all we do. We're also authors, novelist, journalists, 9 00:00:35,165 --> 00:00:38,325 Speaker 2: in the case of my talented friends here, screenwriters and 10 00:00:38,366 --> 00:00:42,605 Speaker 2: TV producers. So in short, we've all made careers, some 11 00:00:42,686 --> 00:00:45,245 Speaker 2: of us in some cases quite long careers. Now. Mia 12 00:00:45,326 --> 00:00:48,005 Speaker 2: out of creativity, and it's also at the core of 13 00:00:48,046 --> 00:00:49,606 Speaker 2: what we like to do, and we're not working. Mia 14 00:00:49,726 --> 00:00:51,606 Speaker 2: is a big fan of what she calls creative rest. 15 00:00:51,605 --> 00:00:53,605 Speaker 2: It might be playing with clothes for me, I might 16 00:00:53,645 --> 00:00:57,926 Speaker 2: be growing colorful things. We are definitely creative people, although 17 00:00:58,006 --> 00:00:59,686 Speaker 2: Jesse is not creative in the kitchen. 18 00:00:59,726 --> 00:01:01,246 Speaker 1: That's a conversations another time. 19 00:01:01,726 --> 00:01:04,966 Speaker 3: The thing is, apparently girls often think that they don't 20 00:01:05,006 --> 00:01:07,646 Speaker 3: have to be creative. I remember sensing this a bit 21 00:01:07,726 --> 00:01:11,126 Speaker 3: in adolescence. I reckon it disappeared for a season, and 22 00:01:11,166 --> 00:01:14,166 Speaker 3: apparently that's actually proven. That is something that happens is. 23 00:01:14,126 --> 00:01:16,726 Speaker 4: That because it's seen as something for childhood that you 24 00:01:16,846 --> 00:01:17,486 Speaker 4: leave behind. 25 00:01:17,766 --> 00:01:21,006 Speaker 3: I think it's also about playing risk, Like I wonder 26 00:01:21,006 --> 00:01:22,646 Speaker 3: if we become risk averse. 27 00:01:22,606 --> 00:01:26,126 Speaker 4: Fear of being judged because Elizabeth Gilbert, I think said, 28 00:01:26,726 --> 00:01:29,446 Speaker 4: when a man puts a work of creative work into 29 00:01:29,486 --> 00:01:30,926 Speaker 4: the world, people debate the work. 30 00:01:31,126 --> 00:01:32,766 Speaker 1: When a woman puts a work. 31 00:01:32,686 --> 00:01:35,406 Speaker 4: Of creativity out into the world, they debate whether she's 32 00:01:35,486 --> 00:01:37,406 Speaker 4: worthy of putting anything out at all. 33 00:01:37,526 --> 00:01:39,526 Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember being in high school and I love 34 00:01:39,646 --> 00:01:40,326 Speaker 3: public speaking. 35 00:01:40,326 --> 00:01:41,246 Speaker 5: It was my favorite thing. 36 00:01:41,686 --> 00:01:43,566 Speaker 3: I did a speech in front of the school and 37 00:01:43,606 --> 00:01:45,446 Speaker 3: I was so proud of myself, and I remember the 38 00:01:45,526 --> 00:01:48,526 Speaker 3: overwhelming response from other girls was like, who does she 39 00:01:48,566 --> 00:01:52,526 Speaker 3: think she is? To her, it was very very that 40 00:01:52,726 --> 00:01:54,486 Speaker 3: And it's this idea that you kind of have to 41 00:01:54,926 --> 00:01:57,446 Speaker 3: put it away, or that imagination, as you say, mayor 42 00:01:57,486 --> 00:01:59,286 Speaker 3: it's a little bit for childhood. And that's such a 43 00:01:59,286 --> 00:02:01,606 Speaker 3: loss because teenage girls are really, really creative. 44 00:02:02,686 --> 00:02:04,566 Speaker 2: So we wanted to talk to you and maybe your 45 00:02:04,646 --> 00:02:07,406 Speaker 2: daughters as well today about why that's just not true 46 00:02:07,446 --> 00:02:10,526 Speaker 2: and give a bit of insight into our creativity and 47 00:02:10,566 --> 00:02:12,645 Speaker 2: times in our life when we've been more or less creative. 48 00:02:13,006 --> 00:02:15,885 Speaker 2: I want to know about you me, who is one 49 00:02:15,886 --> 00:02:18,365 Speaker 2: of the most creative people that I know in almost 50 00:02:18,446 --> 00:02:21,085 Speaker 2: all areas of your life. If you have always always 51 00:02:21,125 --> 00:02:21,726 Speaker 2: been like that. 52 00:02:21,886 --> 00:02:26,965 Speaker 4: Yes, So it's taken lots of different forms my creativity. 53 00:02:27,006 --> 00:02:31,925 Speaker 4: I've always had a big imagination. But my earliest memory 54 00:02:31,965 --> 00:02:34,886 Speaker 4: of it was my mum got a call when I 55 00:02:34,925 --> 00:02:36,645 Speaker 4: was at preschool, so I would have been about two 56 00:02:36,805 --> 00:02:39,006 Speaker 4: or three. She got a call from my. 57 00:02:38,965 --> 00:02:41,046 Speaker 1: Preschool saying, we're a bit worried. 58 00:02:41,166 --> 00:02:43,365 Speaker 4: We just need to talk to you because it's the 59 00:02:43,365 --> 00:02:45,406 Speaker 4: middle of winter and Maya keeps coming to school. And 60 00:02:45,446 --> 00:02:46,965 Speaker 4: then she disappears in the middle of the day and 61 00:02:47,046 --> 00:02:50,125 Speaker 4: she's just wearing like a little dress and it's freezing outside, 62 00:02:50,645 --> 00:02:53,686 Speaker 4: and we've realized that she's actually bringing spare changes of 63 00:02:53,726 --> 00:02:57,126 Speaker 4: clothes to Kindy in her little Kindy bag and getting 64 00:02:57,245 --> 00:03:00,365 Speaker 4: changed throughout the day, and it's not always seasonally appropriate. 65 00:03:00,446 --> 00:03:04,085 Speaker 4: So I had to have these Kindi bag inspections before 66 00:03:04,085 --> 00:03:04,886 Speaker 4: I went to Kindy. 67 00:03:04,925 --> 00:03:06,566 Speaker 5: You pull out that we should do them. 68 00:03:06,846 --> 00:03:08,405 Speaker 3: We should do them when you walk into the office. 69 00:03:08,405 --> 00:03:09,965 Speaker 3: You came in today with a suitcase, and we said, 70 00:03:10,006 --> 00:03:12,165 Speaker 3: tell us what suitcase? What was in the suitcase? 71 00:03:12,326 --> 00:03:14,206 Speaker 4: As you know if you've been to them on mere office, 72 00:03:14,206 --> 00:03:15,925 Speaker 4: You'll know that I've got a rack in my office 73 00:03:15,965 --> 00:03:18,326 Speaker 4: and I will often get changed during the day. I'm 74 00:03:18,365 --> 00:03:20,805 Speaker 4: having a really early dinner with girlfriends tonight, but I've 75 00:03:20,805 --> 00:03:22,446 Speaker 4: got to make sure that I've got enough time to 76 00:03:22,446 --> 00:03:26,565 Speaker 4: go home and put on another outfit, just because you know. Anyway, 77 00:03:26,606 --> 00:03:29,766 Speaker 4: so that I've always used clothes as a form of 78 00:03:29,886 --> 00:03:33,406 Speaker 4: creative expression, right, and there have been times in my 79 00:03:33,405 --> 00:03:35,566 Speaker 4: life when I haven't, And there've been times when I've 80 00:03:35,606 --> 00:03:37,686 Speaker 4: that's reflective of a really bad headspace. 81 00:03:37,726 --> 00:03:40,206 Speaker 2: Were you one of those kids, because I know I was, 82 00:03:40,246 --> 00:03:41,726 Speaker 2: and I don't know if you were, Jesse who I 83 00:03:41,766 --> 00:03:44,126 Speaker 2: always played imaginary games when I was a kid. I 84 00:03:44,126 --> 00:03:46,606 Speaker 2: always had like narratives going in my head and play 85 00:03:46,686 --> 00:03:49,006 Speaker 2: a lot of imaginary games. So I'd be off in 86 00:03:49,046 --> 00:03:52,406 Speaker 2: the corner playing and it would be my own invented world. 87 00:03:53,006 --> 00:03:53,886 Speaker 1: And I think that that. 88 00:03:54,006 --> 00:03:56,646 Speaker 2: Was a sign for me when I was young, that like, 89 00:03:56,766 --> 00:03:59,246 Speaker 2: I loved disappearing into that and I'd just be off 90 00:03:59,246 --> 00:04:01,686 Speaker 2: in a corner chattering to myself, but I was in 91 00:04:01,766 --> 00:04:02,406 Speaker 2: my own world. 92 00:04:02,446 --> 00:04:03,406 Speaker 1: I'd do it with clothes. 93 00:04:03,526 --> 00:04:06,606 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another point which sometimes that gets knocked out 94 00:04:06,646 --> 00:04:08,086 Speaker 2: of you because it's a bit of a weird thing 95 00:04:08,126 --> 00:04:09,846 Speaker 2: to do. Let's be honest, right, And there's a point 96 00:04:09,846 --> 00:04:12,206 Speaker 2: of which someone in your family or your friends would 97 00:04:12,206 --> 00:04:14,046 Speaker 2: be like, why is holy talking. 98 00:04:13,766 --> 00:04:15,406 Speaker 1: To yourself and pretend. 99 00:04:15,966 --> 00:04:17,726 Speaker 2: And then I guess as soon as I was a 100 00:04:17,726 --> 00:04:20,406 Speaker 2: bit older and I realized I could write those worlds down, 101 00:04:21,086 --> 00:04:25,366 Speaker 2: I would fill notebooks with stories and stories that included 102 00:04:25,406 --> 00:04:27,766 Speaker 2: my friends. I used to write these kind of like 103 00:04:27,926 --> 00:04:31,366 Speaker 2: serialized stories that had me and my friends doing these 104 00:04:31,406 --> 00:04:34,486 Speaker 2: crazy things. And so I think that it probably was 105 00:04:34,686 --> 00:04:36,166 Speaker 2: in me from a young age. But what I'd love 106 00:04:36,206 --> 00:04:38,766 Speaker 2: to ask you, Jesse, is I wonder if this sometimes 107 00:04:38,806 --> 00:04:40,845 Speaker 2: when you're a kid, we're kind of told you're either 108 00:04:40,926 --> 00:04:44,285 Speaker 2: creative or your sort of books smart, a bit scientific, 109 00:04:44,325 --> 00:04:46,406 Speaker 2: a bit maththy, and you kind of have to pick right, 110 00:04:46,406 --> 00:04:49,845 Speaker 2: You have to pick a lane. I'm definitely the stereotypical. 111 00:04:50,005 --> 00:04:51,966 Speaker 2: I was good at English and writing and books, and 112 00:04:52,005 --> 00:04:53,766 Speaker 2: I wasn't good at science and maths and things. But 113 00:04:53,885 --> 00:04:56,846 Speaker 2: Jesse is our resonant book smart person. I know me 114 00:04:56,926 --> 00:04:58,606 Speaker 2: is about to say I was good at maths too. 115 00:04:59,046 --> 00:05:01,246 Speaker 1: Just hold it me, act although. 116 00:05:01,005 --> 00:05:05,686 Speaker 4: I did you, but I did maths and it was 117 00:05:05,846 --> 00:05:06,965 Speaker 4: quite well in maths. 118 00:05:07,046 --> 00:05:08,645 Speaker 2: I want to go to Jesse and say, did you 119 00:05:08,686 --> 00:05:11,006 Speaker 2: ever feel that pressure to choose? And were you always 120 00:05:11,046 --> 00:05:12,366 Speaker 2: like a jewel lame person. 121 00:05:12,686 --> 00:05:16,166 Speaker 3: I can remember being in year three and I was really, really, 122 00:05:16,206 --> 00:05:19,086 Speaker 3: really shy kid, and I barely spoke and I cried 123 00:05:19,126 --> 00:05:21,406 Speaker 3: whenever I stood it from the class, and I remember 124 00:05:21,445 --> 00:05:21,766 Speaker 3: the teacher. 125 00:05:21,806 --> 00:05:23,846 Speaker 5: I remember her name, and I remember. 126 00:05:23,486 --> 00:05:27,566 Speaker 3: Her recognizing creativity in me and fostering it, and that 127 00:05:27,686 --> 00:05:28,966 Speaker 3: changed everything. 128 00:05:29,005 --> 00:05:29,886 Speaker 2: How did she do that? 129 00:05:30,086 --> 00:05:33,806 Speaker 3: So I would write stories, fictional stories of things for 130 00:05:33,885 --> 00:05:35,406 Speaker 3: other teachers. I would write the stories, and I was 131 00:05:35,406 --> 00:05:38,085 Speaker 3: a terrible speller, and they would just circle the bad spelling, 132 00:05:38,366 --> 00:05:40,765 Speaker 3: and then I would get disheartened. And she didn't care 133 00:05:40,806 --> 00:05:43,165 Speaker 3: about the spelling. She just thought that it was great 134 00:05:43,166 --> 00:05:45,766 Speaker 3: that I was writing stories. And then she encouraged me. 135 00:05:45,765 --> 00:05:48,046 Speaker 3: I remember there was like a plaything and she actually 136 00:05:48,046 --> 00:05:50,606 Speaker 3: gave me a role or whatever and got me to do. 137 00:05:51,126 --> 00:05:53,445 Speaker 3: Have this weird memory. I don't know why it's stuck. 138 00:05:53,486 --> 00:05:55,645 Speaker 3: You know those things you're like, is this significant? She 139 00:05:55,765 --> 00:05:58,046 Speaker 3: was reading a story to the class. It was a 140 00:05:58,086 --> 00:05:59,885 Speaker 3: description in a book and it was saying that there 141 00:05:59,885 --> 00:06:02,606 Speaker 3: were so many flies that the indigenous person in the 142 00:06:02,606 --> 00:06:04,886 Speaker 3: book was closing their eyes so that the flies didn't 143 00:06:04,885 --> 00:06:05,126 Speaker 3: get in. 144 00:06:05,606 --> 00:06:06,086 Speaker 5: She was reading. 145 00:06:06,126 --> 00:06:07,726 Speaker 3: She looked at me, and I was trying to do 146 00:06:07,806 --> 00:06:10,686 Speaker 3: it like close my eyes. She could clearly see that 147 00:06:10,726 --> 00:06:13,005 Speaker 3: I understood imagery, and like there was. 148 00:06:13,005 --> 00:06:14,325 Speaker 5: A real wow. 149 00:06:14,806 --> 00:06:17,846 Speaker 1: She empathetic with the story told in the character. 150 00:06:17,926 --> 00:06:19,765 Speaker 5: I must have been really little when that happened. 151 00:06:20,126 --> 00:06:24,325 Speaker 3: I find that my journey since has been about trying 152 00:06:24,325 --> 00:06:26,405 Speaker 3: to get back to five because the way it was 153 00:06:26,445 --> 00:06:29,486 Speaker 3: beaten out of me. I feel like with essays and stuff, 154 00:06:29,646 --> 00:06:32,206 Speaker 3: perfectionism meant I wanted to get really good marks. You 155 00:06:32,246 --> 00:06:34,966 Speaker 3: felt like you had to write the same way, and 156 00:06:35,486 --> 00:06:38,166 Speaker 3: you put the creativity to the side, and then the 157 00:06:38,206 --> 00:06:41,886 Speaker 3: inner critic gets so so loud that the creativity is 158 00:06:41,926 --> 00:06:44,806 Speaker 3: totally stifled. I feel like all of it is. I 159 00:06:44,846 --> 00:06:47,886 Speaker 3: sit down sometimes during writing my fiction book, and I 160 00:06:47,885 --> 00:06:49,486 Speaker 3: would go, I wish I was five and I could 161 00:06:49,486 --> 00:06:51,885 Speaker 3: just sit there on my little I had a little 162 00:06:51,966 --> 00:06:55,206 Speaker 3: desk and a little stool and a pen, well, a pencil, 163 00:06:55,686 --> 00:06:58,405 Speaker 3: a pen license, and I would write stories. 164 00:06:58,686 --> 00:07:00,726 Speaker 4: It's interesting that you guys talk about writing a lot 165 00:07:00,765 --> 00:07:03,405 Speaker 4: like I. You know, I loved poetry in English and everything, 166 00:07:03,445 --> 00:07:07,005 Speaker 4: but creativity for me has an been something that has 167 00:07:07,046 --> 00:07:09,845 Speaker 4: required skill. Like one of my fondest memories and what 168 00:07:09,886 --> 00:07:12,566 Speaker 4: I used to love doing was cutting things out of 169 00:07:12,606 --> 00:07:16,046 Speaker 4: magazines to decorate my school diaries and stuff, and decorating 170 00:07:16,046 --> 00:07:18,726 Speaker 4: my folders and my locker and my bedroom, you know, 171 00:07:18,806 --> 00:07:22,486 Speaker 4: putting posters. I still to this day love to blue 172 00:07:22,526 --> 00:07:26,766 Speaker 4: tach things up and play with my personal space, whether 173 00:07:26,806 --> 00:07:28,046 Speaker 4: it's my bedroom or my. 174 00:07:28,046 --> 00:07:29,926 Speaker 1: Office or my wardrobe. 175 00:07:30,206 --> 00:07:33,246 Speaker 4: I like rearranging what I can see. To me, that's 176 00:07:33,286 --> 00:07:34,126 Speaker 4: a form of motive. 177 00:07:34,286 --> 00:07:37,566 Speaker 2: And you're definitely like a sort of three sixty creative 178 00:07:37,566 --> 00:07:40,246 Speaker 2: in that way, right You're always looking at the way 179 00:07:40,286 --> 00:07:42,886 Speaker 2: things look and wanting to change them and thinking. 180 00:07:42,566 --> 00:07:43,886 Speaker 1: Of new ways to do things. 181 00:07:44,246 --> 00:07:47,206 Speaker 2: Because one of the things about creativity is it's not 182 00:07:47,326 --> 00:07:51,286 Speaker 2: just about obviously creating art. Whether that's oh, you want 183 00:07:51,286 --> 00:07:52,446 Speaker 2: to be a writer or you want to be a 184 00:07:52,486 --> 00:07:55,886 Speaker 2: painter or whatever. Creative thinking is probably becoming more and 185 00:07:55,966 --> 00:07:58,286 Speaker 2: more important all the time because the machines are not 186 00:07:58,406 --> 00:08:00,406 Speaker 2: yet as good at that as we are. They may 187 00:08:00,446 --> 00:08:04,366 Speaker 2: become that if we don't foster creativity in kids. I'm 188 00:08:04,406 --> 00:08:07,366 Speaker 2: not in a prescriptive way, but don't encourage them to 189 00:08:07,526 --> 00:08:10,086 Speaker 2: think big picture and live in their imagination. For a 190 00:08:10,126 --> 00:08:12,366 Speaker 2: while and think, well, what would make this better, How 191 00:08:12,406 --> 00:08:14,486 Speaker 2: could this be solved? What is a different way of 192 00:08:14,526 --> 00:08:17,126 Speaker 2: saying this. If we don't do that, then you lose 193 00:08:17,766 --> 00:08:20,606 Speaker 2: something very important that isn't really about writing stories or 194 00:08:20,606 --> 00:08:21,406 Speaker 2: painting pictures. 195 00:08:21,446 --> 00:08:24,126 Speaker 3: And you know what else we lose is the flow skate. 196 00:08:24,406 --> 00:08:28,406 Speaker 3: So you might remember being a kid and whole afternoons 197 00:08:28,446 --> 00:08:32,486 Speaker 3: disappeared and we would play imaginary getting dressed up and 198 00:08:32,606 --> 00:08:33,926 Speaker 3: Claire and I would play a game. 199 00:08:34,006 --> 00:08:35,406 Speaker 1: But I used to make up dances. 200 00:08:35,566 --> 00:08:36,806 Speaker 5: Yes, of course you did. 201 00:08:37,046 --> 00:08:41,285 Speaker 3: And the way that time because you are so involved 202 00:08:41,326 --> 00:08:44,166 Speaker 3: in something and you are this incredible focus, it doesn't 203 00:08:44,165 --> 00:08:48,006 Speaker 3: feel like focus because it's so re energizing, that state 204 00:08:48,045 --> 00:08:49,726 Speaker 3: of flow when you are playing. 205 00:08:49,846 --> 00:08:52,606 Speaker 4: But I was also very lonely because there were no screens. 206 00:08:52,726 --> 00:08:54,086 Speaker 4: I had my brother were. 207 00:08:54,206 --> 00:08:55,926 Speaker 2: Lonely because there were no screens. 208 00:08:56,045 --> 00:08:57,766 Speaker 4: Yes, yes I had. 209 00:08:57,886 --> 00:08:58,646 Speaker 1: I couldn't text my. 210 00:08:58,766 --> 00:09:01,326 Speaker 2: Children listening to this, put your fingers in your ears. 211 00:09:01,366 --> 00:09:02,286 Speaker 1: We all know screens. 212 00:09:02,405 --> 00:09:03,966 Speaker 4: I was lonely because there were no screens. No, but 213 00:09:04,006 --> 00:09:06,006 Speaker 4: there was no option. So I think one of the 214 00:09:06,006 --> 00:09:10,846 Speaker 4: things that Foster's creativity is bored them. Yes, and I'm 215 00:09:10,846 --> 00:09:14,446 Speaker 4: never bored now rarely, but then I was bored all 216 00:09:14,606 --> 00:09:17,606 Speaker 4: the time because there's nothing on television, there was no streaming, 217 00:09:17,646 --> 00:09:20,805 Speaker 4: there was no internet. I had no siblings, I didn't 218 00:09:20,846 --> 00:09:23,046 Speaker 4: have a lot of friends. So I would make up 219 00:09:23,126 --> 00:09:25,126 Speaker 4: dancers and I would, you know, I would be forced 220 00:09:25,726 --> 00:09:28,566 Speaker 4: to be creative. I was never imaginative in the way 221 00:09:28,566 --> 00:09:30,646 Speaker 4: that you two were, And to this day, I'm not 222 00:09:30,686 --> 00:09:32,405 Speaker 4: like I'm in awe of anyone that can write fiction 223 00:09:33,045 --> 00:09:35,606 Speaker 4: because I don't ever make up stories in my head. 224 00:09:36,165 --> 00:09:38,006 Speaker 1: I like the real world, but. 225 00:09:38,006 --> 00:09:41,685 Speaker 4: I like physically expressing myself in it, whether it's doing 226 00:09:41,766 --> 00:09:43,646 Speaker 4: a dance or dressing myself for. 227 00:09:45,126 --> 00:09:47,006 Speaker 2: In a minute, we're going to come back, and I 228 00:09:47,086 --> 00:09:48,846 Speaker 2: want to know from Jesse and Meha, and I'll be 229 00:09:48,886 --> 00:09:51,046 Speaker 2: taking that so about how they keep themselves creative when 230 00:09:51,086 --> 00:09:53,846 Speaker 2: there's so much pressure these days to do a million 231 00:09:53,886 --> 00:09:59,646 Speaker 2: other things. But first, here's a message from Lego. All right, 232 00:09:59,766 --> 00:10:03,086 Speaker 2: I need to hear about your hacks because I write books. 233 00:10:03,165 --> 00:10:05,206 Speaker 2: We all do lots of things, and we've all written books. 234 00:10:05,246 --> 00:10:08,446 Speaker 2: But I am in the middle of writing my fifth novel, 235 00:10:08,486 --> 00:10:11,405 Speaker 2: and I have to say my creative process has been 236 00:10:11,526 --> 00:10:14,445 Speaker 2: heart this time. Right, I've had a bit of writer's block. 237 00:10:14,766 --> 00:10:16,926 Speaker 2: I found it hard to get him flow. There are 238 00:10:16,926 --> 00:10:19,606 Speaker 2: a million things distracting me. I've got a million thoughts 239 00:10:19,606 --> 00:10:22,046 Speaker 2: in my head. I want to know if there have 240 00:10:22,086 --> 00:10:23,966 Speaker 2: been times in your life when you've had a bit 241 00:10:24,006 --> 00:10:27,166 Speaker 2: of a block mea and how you've managed to unblock it. 242 00:10:27,646 --> 00:10:29,846 Speaker 3: You've talked about anxiety being a block for you. 243 00:10:30,126 --> 00:10:32,926 Speaker 4: I've got an image of a toilet plunger. When I 244 00:10:32,926 --> 00:10:35,646 Speaker 4: had a really bad anxiety attack that went for like 245 00:10:35,686 --> 00:10:38,766 Speaker 4: almost two weeks and I was diagnosed and everything. I 246 00:10:38,886 --> 00:10:44,085 Speaker 4: was really worried that I wouldn't be able to write anymore. Ironically, 247 00:10:44,206 --> 00:10:46,806 Speaker 4: when I was writing, it was the only time I 248 00:10:46,886 --> 00:10:50,846 Speaker 4: wasn't anxious, because that state of concentration and flow that 249 00:10:50,926 --> 00:10:52,886 Speaker 4: I will get into if I was writing, and you know, 250 00:10:52,926 --> 00:10:56,486 Speaker 4: this is writing articles for Mamma Mia, I don't write fiction. 251 00:10:57,526 --> 00:10:59,045 Speaker 4: It helped my anxiety. 252 00:10:59,165 --> 00:11:01,886 Speaker 3: So is that creative rest? You know how you recently 253 00:11:01,886 --> 00:11:04,326 Speaker 3: brought up that term. I wonder if for you that 254 00:11:04,486 --> 00:11:05,325 Speaker 3: was almost rest. 255 00:11:05,566 --> 00:11:10,406 Speaker 4: But it was just a distraction really, and so now 256 00:11:10,726 --> 00:11:13,846 Speaker 4: my creative rest. I wear two hats at mum and 257 00:11:13,926 --> 00:11:16,526 Speaker 4: may up. Half of me is the co founder of 258 00:11:16,566 --> 00:11:18,886 Speaker 4: the business, and then half of me is making content 259 00:11:18,966 --> 00:11:21,846 Speaker 4: like podcasts, with you guys, and writing and social and stuff. 260 00:11:22,165 --> 00:11:24,086 Speaker 4: The making of the stuff is the stuff I love. 261 00:11:24,165 --> 00:11:26,606 Speaker 4: And that's probably I don't know, thirty percent of my job, 262 00:11:26,686 --> 00:11:28,966 Speaker 4: maybe forty percent, and I'm always trying to get it 263 00:11:28,966 --> 00:11:32,326 Speaker 4: to be more. And the other part of my job 264 00:11:32,486 --> 00:11:35,566 Speaker 4: really drains me because it is the opposite of being creative. 265 00:11:35,606 --> 00:11:39,006 Speaker 4: I mean, sometimes you can have creative solutions to problems, 266 00:11:39,045 --> 00:11:41,326 Speaker 4: and it's creative for me having ideas that I don't 267 00:11:41,366 --> 00:11:46,325 Speaker 4: necessarily have to execute. But for me, creativity doesn't also 268 00:11:46,446 --> 00:11:49,366 Speaker 4: have to be creative. Rest can come from doing a 269 00:11:49,405 --> 00:11:52,246 Speaker 4: puzzle while I'm listening to an audiobook, or going for 270 00:11:52,285 --> 00:11:54,526 Speaker 4: a walk while I'm listening to a podcast, or rearranging 271 00:11:54,606 --> 00:11:57,165 Speaker 4: my wardrobe, or walking around a shopping center and looking 272 00:11:57,165 --> 00:12:01,925 Speaker 4: at clothes. Someone else has said it's also about regulating emotionally, regulating. 273 00:12:02,165 --> 00:12:07,046 Speaker 4: For me, creativity regulates me emotionally and I need it 274 00:12:07,165 --> 00:12:10,325 Speaker 4: to sort of function it And even Keel, have. 275 00:12:10,326 --> 00:12:13,086 Speaker 2: You ever struggled with your creativity, Jesse, because you certainly 276 00:12:13,086 --> 00:12:17,405 Speaker 2: from the outside seem like an incredibly prolific producer of things, 277 00:12:17,526 --> 00:12:18,805 Speaker 2: of creative projects. 278 00:12:19,045 --> 00:12:21,606 Speaker 3: I think you can produce a project without having any 279 00:12:21,646 --> 00:12:24,646 Speaker 3: creativity and that's the saddest thing you can create, because 280 00:12:24,646 --> 00:12:28,086 Speaker 3: it's really it costs you a lot. And the thing 281 00:12:28,206 --> 00:12:30,686 Speaker 3: that gets in the way of creativity more than anything else, 282 00:12:30,686 --> 00:12:32,325 Speaker 3: it is your worst nightmare that you have to let 283 00:12:32,326 --> 00:12:33,486 Speaker 3: go of, is perfectionism. 284 00:12:33,606 --> 00:12:34,566 Speaker 5: And may you taught me that. 285 00:12:34,726 --> 00:12:37,966 Speaker 2: And girls do suffer from that more than boys statistically, right. 286 00:12:38,126 --> 00:12:42,046 Speaker 2: So it's another reason why maybe little girls stop playing 287 00:12:42,126 --> 00:12:45,206 Speaker 2: and building and inventing things is they're like, but it's 288 00:12:45,206 --> 00:12:47,685 Speaker 2: not good. It's not good perfect, it's not as good 289 00:12:47,726 --> 00:12:49,486 Speaker 2: as the one that I've seen on social or the 290 00:12:49,486 --> 00:12:51,286 Speaker 2: one that that influence is making, or the one my 291 00:12:51,326 --> 00:12:54,086 Speaker 2: brother's making, or so I'm just going to not do it. 292 00:12:54,206 --> 00:12:55,805 Speaker 2: So how do you overcome that? 293 00:12:56,045 --> 00:12:58,486 Speaker 5: And I remember it kicking in in adolescence. 294 00:12:58,526 --> 00:13:02,526 Speaker 3: It was like I would handwrite these stories or I 295 00:13:02,526 --> 00:13:05,246 Speaker 3: I loved drawing, I loved painting, and then I remember 296 00:13:05,246 --> 00:13:07,446 Speaker 3: something happened one day where I would like start writing 297 00:13:07,566 --> 00:13:09,766 Speaker 3: on a page and then I'd be like, my handwriting 298 00:13:09,766 --> 00:13:11,966 Speaker 3: isn't neat enough. I need to redo that, like and 299 00:13:12,045 --> 00:13:14,926 Speaker 3: it would and it was awful. It's like you can't 300 00:13:14,966 --> 00:13:20,126 Speaker 3: get into that state of like REEDA, yeah, exactly. So 301 00:13:20,285 --> 00:13:25,126 Speaker 3: I have found a few things help. I think handwriting 302 00:13:25,366 --> 00:13:27,526 Speaker 3: is really good. And I'm not just talking about writing, 303 00:13:27,566 --> 00:13:29,886 Speaker 3: I'm talking about anything. If you feel like you creatively 304 00:13:29,966 --> 00:13:32,246 Speaker 3: need to get something out a pencil and paper, a 305 00:13:32,285 --> 00:13:35,846 Speaker 3: pen and paper, it's right like that. Oh, so it's 306 00:13:35,926 --> 00:13:39,526 Speaker 3: so freeing. I think going for a walk or being 307 00:13:39,606 --> 00:13:43,886 Speaker 3: in a certain space with absolutely no input, and by 308 00:13:43,886 --> 00:13:46,686 Speaker 3: that I mean spend time in your head. I think 309 00:13:46,726 --> 00:13:49,246 Speaker 3: we're talking about this when we're away, we're snorkeling, and 310 00:13:49,326 --> 00:13:52,606 Speaker 3: I love snorkeling, and I love swimming because there's nothing else. 311 00:13:52,846 --> 00:13:54,126 Speaker 5: And it's like my brain. 312 00:13:54,606 --> 00:13:58,366 Speaker 3: When my mind wanders, it goes to such interesting places, 313 00:13:58,405 --> 00:14:01,046 Speaker 3: and I miss that from childhood. You don't let your 314 00:14:01,045 --> 00:14:03,326 Speaker 3: brain do that if it's just input, input, input. 315 00:14:03,405 --> 00:14:06,046 Speaker 2: So can I ask you just a little bit back 316 00:14:06,045 --> 00:14:08,565 Speaker 2: on the critic, because if we think that maybe some 317 00:14:08,606 --> 00:14:11,405 Speaker 2: little girls and girls are stopping being creative because they're 318 00:14:11,405 --> 00:14:13,445 Speaker 2: worried about what people are going to say to them, 319 00:14:13,526 --> 00:14:15,806 Speaker 2: ye as you've said, Jesse, when you were at school, 320 00:14:15,926 --> 00:14:17,006 Speaker 2: or like who do you think you are? 321 00:14:17,086 --> 00:14:17,486 Speaker 1: Or whatever? 322 00:14:18,206 --> 00:14:22,206 Speaker 2: Have you learned anything that's useful about how to not 323 00:14:22,446 --> 00:14:24,766 Speaker 2: care quite so much about that and still be true 324 00:14:24,766 --> 00:14:25,566 Speaker 2: to what you want to do? 325 00:14:25,806 --> 00:14:29,366 Speaker 3: A few things. I think done is better than perfect. 326 00:14:30,046 --> 00:14:35,046 Speaker 3: You can't edit or rearrange something that you haven't started. 327 00:14:35,206 --> 00:14:40,366 Speaker 3: You've got to just put something down. Sometimes creativity can 328 00:14:40,406 --> 00:14:43,726 Speaker 3: be just for you. It's not a performance. It's not 329 00:14:43,846 --> 00:14:46,486 Speaker 3: for other people to judge. And you can draw something, 330 00:14:46,566 --> 00:14:49,606 Speaker 3: or you can make something and go the best feeling. 331 00:14:49,606 --> 00:14:51,326 Speaker 3: And I, as we say we've all written books. I 332 00:14:51,326 --> 00:14:52,806 Speaker 3: can tell you can write a book and you can 333 00:14:52,846 --> 00:14:55,046 Speaker 3: get a great review or sell x many copies. There 334 00:14:55,126 --> 00:14:58,566 Speaker 3: is nothing like the feeling of feeling proud of something 335 00:14:58,606 --> 00:15:00,926 Speaker 3: you have created. There's nothing else that's going to make 336 00:15:01,006 --> 00:15:04,006 Speaker 3: you the teacher giving your opinion that matters. Yeah, And 337 00:15:04,046 --> 00:15:06,526 Speaker 3: in fact it's in the doing. It's like in the 338 00:15:06,606 --> 00:15:09,606 Speaker 3: doing of something. So the thing that's helped me the 339 00:15:09,646 --> 00:15:13,166 Speaker 3: most has been playing with my now nine month old 340 00:15:13,446 --> 00:15:16,246 Speaker 3: so watching her and it's at the moment the developmental 341 00:15:16,286 --> 00:15:19,246 Speaker 3: stage is putting ball in roundhole, right, So I just 342 00:15:19,286 --> 00:15:20,566 Speaker 3: show her how to do it, and then she doesn't 343 00:15:20,606 --> 00:15:22,686 Speaker 3: do it, and I'm like no, the ball goes in there. 344 00:15:23,046 --> 00:15:25,406 Speaker 5: But then I'm like no, no, no. The thing is 345 00:15:25,446 --> 00:15:26,086 Speaker 5: the playing. 346 00:15:26,286 --> 00:15:28,206 Speaker 3: The thing is that she picks the ball up, tries 347 00:15:28,246 --> 00:15:30,086 Speaker 3: to eat it, and then she throws it at the dog, 348 00:15:30,206 --> 00:15:34,206 Speaker 3: and I'm like, it's the journey, not the destination. I 349 00:15:34,606 --> 00:15:37,766 Speaker 3: love sitting on the floor with her and playing with toys. 350 00:15:37,846 --> 00:15:40,606 Speaker 4: I love it watching her exploring. 351 00:15:40,806 --> 00:15:44,046 Speaker 2: Yes, Mia, what's the best advice you've ever been given 352 00:15:44,046 --> 00:15:46,326 Speaker 2: about not caring about what other people think? 353 00:15:47,246 --> 00:15:50,086 Speaker 4: It's that thing of dance, like no one's watching, right. 354 00:15:50,526 --> 00:15:52,606 Speaker 4: I had a lovely time going to a like an 355 00:15:52,646 --> 00:15:57,446 Speaker 4: all female disco club recently, which that felt really creative, 356 00:15:57,446 --> 00:16:00,166 Speaker 4: like everyone's got a disco for ground ups, yeah, and 357 00:16:00,206 --> 00:16:02,686 Speaker 4: everyone was just dancing and it was just fun because 358 00:16:02,726 --> 00:16:06,166 Speaker 4: no one felt, oh my being judged. Like, as women 359 00:16:06,206 --> 00:16:08,886 Speaker 4: and as girls, we learn very quickly when we're girls 360 00:16:08,966 --> 00:16:12,686 Speaker 4: to be watching ourselves from the outside and judging ourselves 361 00:16:12,806 --> 00:16:14,366 Speaker 4: before someone else judges us. 362 00:16:14,966 --> 00:16:16,646 Speaker 1: And I'm watching at the moment. 363 00:16:16,446 --> 00:16:20,286 Speaker 4: My daughter, who is very creative, and she'll go from 364 00:16:20,326 --> 00:16:22,686 Speaker 4: thing to things. So she was like SeaGlass, hunting for 365 00:16:22,766 --> 00:16:25,846 Speaker 4: ages and collecting sea glass. Now she's just started painting, 366 00:16:26,246 --> 00:16:29,246 Speaker 4: and I'm so envious because she's just having a go. 367 00:16:29,846 --> 00:16:32,406 Speaker 4: She's just like got these canvases and she's just doing 368 00:16:32,486 --> 00:16:35,486 Speaker 4: all these kinds of things, and I'm just like, wow, 369 00:16:35,566 --> 00:16:39,606 Speaker 4: I would feel too vulnerable to put something on canvas. 370 00:16:39,646 --> 00:16:44,366 Speaker 4: I'm very into low stakes creativity, like baking something, making 371 00:16:44,446 --> 00:16:48,766 Speaker 4: a cake, rearranging some pillows on my couch, moving some 372 00:16:48,806 --> 00:16:52,726 Speaker 4: furniture around, like I really like those little light touch 373 00:16:52,846 --> 00:16:53,926 Speaker 4: bits of creativity. 374 00:16:53,966 --> 00:16:57,726 Speaker 3: Polly, how have you with a daughter who is going 375 00:16:57,886 --> 00:17:02,126 Speaker 3: into adolescence? How do you make sure that she doesn't 376 00:17:02,206 --> 00:17:04,846 Speaker 3: let that critic steal creativity from her? 377 00:17:05,486 --> 00:17:07,046 Speaker 2: One of the things I talked to her about a lot, 378 00:17:07,046 --> 00:17:08,966 Speaker 2: because I think it's a there's a point that girls 379 00:17:09,006 --> 00:17:10,846 Speaker 2: go through, as you just said me, a where suddenly 380 00:17:10,846 --> 00:17:13,766 Speaker 2: they feel very visible and everybody's looking and judging, and 381 00:17:13,846 --> 00:17:16,446 Speaker 2: sometimes it can be a bit sad for moms and dads, 382 00:17:16,446 --> 00:17:20,686 Speaker 2: I guess, to see their little creative swirling around girls. 383 00:17:20,806 --> 00:17:24,446 Speaker 2: You know, a lot of girls will be literally dancing 384 00:17:24,486 --> 00:17:27,966 Speaker 2: like nobody's watching, playing with their friends, scrapping, not caring 385 00:17:28,006 --> 00:17:31,326 Speaker 2: about stuff, dancing around, creating plays, doing all those things, 386 00:17:31,526 --> 00:17:34,406 Speaker 2: and then suddenly it's like closed down. No oh no, 387 00:17:34,526 --> 00:17:36,646 Speaker 2: it's not cool. It's not and it can be a 388 00:17:36,646 --> 00:17:39,646 Speaker 2: bit heartbreaking even to watch it. We make sure that 389 00:17:39,726 --> 00:17:44,086 Speaker 2: in our house it's very clearly explicitly a silly space. 390 00:17:44,366 --> 00:17:47,446 Speaker 1: Right in ouse, it's a great word. In our house. 391 00:17:47,846 --> 00:17:50,766 Speaker 2: You can be as silly and goofy and uncool as 392 00:17:50,806 --> 00:17:54,086 Speaker 2: you want. You can try out ideas that you might 393 00:17:54,086 --> 00:17:56,966 Speaker 2: not want to say out loud anywhere else. Nobody's judging 394 00:17:56,966 --> 00:17:58,965 Speaker 2: you for whatever. Of course that isn't truth. The siblings 395 00:17:59,086 --> 00:18:02,166 Speaker 2: judge each other all the time. But in theory, you 396 00:18:02,206 --> 00:18:05,846 Speaker 2: can try out anything you want. What's hard. I think 397 00:18:05,886 --> 00:18:08,566 Speaker 2: it's really interesting what you say, Jesse, because what I 398 00:18:08,606 --> 00:18:11,086 Speaker 2: see about my daughter, who I don't think she thinks 399 00:18:11,086 --> 00:18:13,606 Speaker 2: is herself as very creative anymore, but I know it's 400 00:18:13,606 --> 00:18:17,046 Speaker 2: in there, and she's been writing stories for school. She's 401 00:18:17,086 --> 00:18:20,366 Speaker 2: at high school now, and she is a bit paralyzed 402 00:18:20,446 --> 00:18:23,446 Speaker 2: by that. Like it's not perfect. Be embarrassed if I 403 00:18:23,446 --> 00:18:25,806 Speaker 2: had to read this out in front of people. So 404 00:18:25,886 --> 00:18:28,366 Speaker 2: I think all of that stuff about reinforcing this is 405 00:18:28,446 --> 00:18:30,486 Speaker 2: just for you, and as you said me, I just 406 00:18:30,526 --> 00:18:33,366 Speaker 2: have a go Like that is just so important because 407 00:18:33,366 --> 00:18:35,406 Speaker 2: once you lose touch with that part of yourself and 408 00:18:35,446 --> 00:18:38,686 Speaker 2: you lose confidence in it, it's hard to reconnect to 409 00:18:38,726 --> 00:18:41,086 Speaker 2: it sometimes and if an adults find that too, so 410 00:18:41,846 --> 00:18:44,566 Speaker 2: it's really important to almost create a safe space for 411 00:18:44,646 --> 00:18:45,486 Speaker 2: yourself to be. 412 00:18:45,926 --> 00:18:48,606 Speaker 4: This is where I get to be keep the stakes low, 413 00:18:49,326 --> 00:18:52,206 Speaker 4: you know, and silencing that in a critic takes work. 414 00:18:52,246 --> 00:18:54,766 Speaker 3: I think has I from Michelle Obama once. I think 415 00:18:54,766 --> 00:18:57,486 Speaker 3: it was her who said, like, the rest of the world, 416 00:18:57,486 --> 00:18:58,646 Speaker 3: for the rest of your life is going to tell 417 00:18:58,686 --> 00:19:02,006 Speaker 3: you you're an idiot. In your home is where there's 418 00:19:02,086 --> 00:19:05,326 Speaker 3: just unconditional love and unconditional support for everything that you do. 419 00:19:05,486 --> 00:19:08,326 Speaker 3: And I really liked that idea. And I also wish 420 00:19:08,366 --> 00:19:10,686 Speaker 3: that at that adolescent stage someone had told me that 421 00:19:10,846 --> 00:19:12,566 Speaker 3: creativity is messiness. 422 00:19:12,726 --> 00:19:13,806 Speaker 5: That's actually what it is. 423 00:19:14,486 --> 00:19:18,006 Speaker 3: You might not see someone else's creativity and go, wow, 424 00:19:18,446 --> 00:19:19,326 Speaker 3: that's amazing. 425 00:19:19,366 --> 00:19:20,126 Speaker 5: I could never do that. 426 00:19:20,886 --> 00:19:25,206 Speaker 3: No creativity is mess working through stages, and it is 427 00:19:25,286 --> 00:19:27,766 Speaker 3: always imperfect, and the spelling error is a part of it, 428 00:19:28,086 --> 00:19:31,526 Speaker 3: and the color that turned wrong on the canvass part 429 00:19:31,566 --> 00:19:31,766 Speaker 3: of it. 430 00:19:32,126 --> 00:19:35,846 Speaker 2: And I think for parents listening to this, it's very hard. 431 00:19:35,926 --> 00:19:38,166 Speaker 2: I find it very hard, and probably because a large 432 00:19:38,206 --> 00:19:41,006 Speaker 2: part of my professional life has been correcting other people's 433 00:19:41,006 --> 00:19:44,566 Speaker 2: mistakes as an editor. You know, when my daughter does 434 00:19:44,606 --> 00:19:47,566 Speaker 2: get me to read her school story, I find it 435 00:19:47,686 --> 00:19:50,046 Speaker 2: very hard to resist the red penurge, right, which is 436 00:19:50,046 --> 00:19:52,206 Speaker 2: what you're talking about, And you have to walk a 437 00:19:52,246 --> 00:19:56,486 Speaker 2: line between obviously we want them to do well, but 438 00:19:56,526 --> 00:20:00,886 Speaker 2: also just addressing the content in its purest form. Like 439 00:20:00,966 --> 00:20:02,966 Speaker 2: if the first thing my daughter hears when I pick 440 00:20:03,046 --> 00:20:05,006 Speaker 2: up a piece of paper something she's written, is like 441 00:20:05,246 --> 00:20:08,366 Speaker 2: you've spelled that wrong. Immediately her shoulders go down. 442 00:20:09,286 --> 00:20:11,646 Speaker 1: Like you said with the teacher, that circled the spelling. 443 00:20:11,846 --> 00:20:13,566 Speaker 5: So it came about the spelling and not the idea 444 00:20:13,766 --> 00:20:14,486 Speaker 5: we need. 445 00:20:14,326 --> 00:20:16,806 Speaker 2: To be And it's very hard because you know, parenting 446 00:20:16,886 --> 00:20:20,366 Speaker 2: is competitive now. Schools are very demanding now. But you've 447 00:20:20,366 --> 00:20:22,726 Speaker 2: also got a police you're in a policeman a bit. 448 00:20:22,846 --> 00:20:24,286 Speaker 5: I think I have. 449 00:20:24,206 --> 00:20:27,526 Speaker 4: A Lego question for you both. When you were kids, 450 00:20:28,086 --> 00:20:30,046 Speaker 4: I still like to build things with Lego. Now we 451 00:20:30,206 --> 00:20:32,846 Speaker 4: buy those kids and do it as a family project. 452 00:20:32,886 --> 00:20:36,606 Speaker 4: But did you like using the bricks to just build 453 00:20:36,646 --> 00:20:39,446 Speaker 4: your own creations or did you like following the instructions 454 00:20:39,486 --> 00:20:43,446 Speaker 4: to build a specific thing? Jesse, Yes, you like to 455 00:20:43,446 --> 00:20:44,246 Speaker 4: build your own theme. 456 00:20:44,366 --> 00:20:47,886 Speaker 3: No, because I needed to do it perfectly, and I 457 00:20:47,926 --> 00:20:50,406 Speaker 3: wish that I hadn't Like, I wish that I had 458 00:20:50,526 --> 00:20:53,725 Speaker 3: let myself do more play with it. 459 00:20:53,766 --> 00:20:57,366 Speaker 2: But instead I'd like to build my own things. Of course, 460 00:20:57,806 --> 00:21:01,206 Speaker 2: my son loves to build a model like, exactly how 461 00:21:01,206 --> 00:21:01,486 Speaker 2: it is. 462 00:21:02,366 --> 00:21:04,446 Speaker 1: I like to follow instructions, and I always. 463 00:21:04,166 --> 00:21:06,246 Speaker 2: Say take it apart and try I make something else 464 00:21:06,286 --> 00:21:08,206 Speaker 2: from it, And he's like, no, it's perfect. 465 00:21:08,126 --> 00:21:09,966 Speaker 1: Right, Well, yeah, but you could make it better. 466 00:21:10,166 --> 00:21:13,086 Speaker 4: I only ever want to follow directions. I find it 467 00:21:13,166 --> 00:21:15,686 Speaker 4: really intimidating that idea. I wonder if I'm scared of 468 00:21:15,726 --> 00:21:16,206 Speaker 4: being judged. 469 00:21:16,246 --> 00:21:16,606 Speaker 1: I don't know. 470 00:21:17,046 --> 00:21:18,926 Speaker 4: You say you love being on the floor playing. I 471 00:21:18,966 --> 00:21:20,806 Speaker 4: found that one of the hardest parts of parenting. 472 00:21:20,886 --> 00:21:21,566 Speaker 1: I hated it. 473 00:21:21,686 --> 00:21:23,566 Speaker 3: You also had three kids, and I'm in the early stage. 474 00:21:23,646 --> 00:21:26,246 Speaker 1: No, no, only one at a time. But I never 475 00:21:26,406 --> 00:21:27,526 Speaker 1: liked it, even from the beginning. 476 00:21:27,566 --> 00:21:29,526 Speaker 4: I just didn't like And when it's like tell me 477 00:21:29,526 --> 00:21:32,406 Speaker 4: a story, I'm like, no, can I read you a story? 478 00:21:32,566 --> 00:21:35,046 Speaker 4: I don't know if I just don't trust my imagination. 479 00:21:35,526 --> 00:21:39,806 Speaker 4: But there's so many different ways of being creative. Yes, 480 00:21:40,246 --> 00:21:42,966 Speaker 4: like my son's super creative. He makes creative breakfasts. 481 00:21:43,246 --> 00:21:43,446 Speaker 2: Yeah. 482 00:21:43,486 --> 00:21:45,246 Speaker 1: I like that, Yeah, which is very handy. 483 00:21:45,606 --> 00:21:45,966 Speaker 4: Thank you. 484 00:21:46,366 --> 00:21:48,646 Speaker 2: I think we've all learned a lot about creativity and 485 00:21:48,686 --> 00:21:51,446 Speaker 2: I've got some hacks. Thank you for listening to this 486 00:21:51,526 --> 00:21:55,366 Speaker 2: special episode of That's Incredible about our own creative lives. 487 00:21:55,446 --> 00:21:58,166 Speaker 2: We hope it's been helpful and helping you and maybe 488 00:21:58,166 --> 00:22:01,406 Speaker 2: your daughter harness their creativity. If you love this conversation, 489 00:22:01,606 --> 00:22:03,526 Speaker 2: please come over to Mama and me are Out Loud, 490 00:22:03,526 --> 00:22:06,966 Speaker 2: where we talk every day, three of us about all 491 00:22:07,046 --> 00:22:09,446 Speaker 2: kinds of things. But in the meantime, thank you for 492 00:22:09,566 --> 00:22:11,046 Speaker 2: joining us, and thank you to let us. 493 00:22:11,246 --> 00:22:14,806 Speaker 3: Bye bye bye. 494 00:22:18,126 --> 00:22:18,406 Speaker 1: Mamma. 495 00:22:18,486 --> 00:22:21,246 Speaker 5: Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. 496 00:22:21,366 --> 00:22:24,726 Speaker 4: We have recorded this podcast on the Gattigul people of 497 00:22:24,766 --> 00:22:25,726 Speaker 4: the Eora Nation. 498 00:22:26,446 --> 00:22:29,246 Speaker 3: We pay our respects to their elders past and present, 499 00:22:29,686 --> 00:22:32,966 Speaker 3: and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and torres Rate 500 00:22:33,006 --> 00:22:33,966 Speaker 3: islander cultures.