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Speaker 1: True crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Just a warning. This story and this opening scene features

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Speaker 2: descriptions of pregnancy, loss, and steelberth. If that's triggering for you,

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Speaker 2: perhaps give this episode a miss. It's November twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: two in Toronto, Canada, and Amy Perry is on the

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Speaker 2: phone coaching a woman in labor. She's helping her breathe

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Speaker 2: through her contractions. She's giving her words of encouragement. She's

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Speaker 2: talking her through the various positions she can get her

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Speaker 2: body in to help her manage her pain. As a dueler,

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Speaker 2: for many years now, Amy has dealt with all sorts

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Speaker 2: of women from all walks of life, welcoming babies into

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Speaker 2: the world in all manner of ways. But tonight's client

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Speaker 2: has a particularly heartbreaking story. Caitlin Brawn is twenty four

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Speaker 2: and her pregnancy is the result of an assault. She

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Speaker 2: only recently found out that her baby, a girl, died

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Speaker 2: in utero at about thirty two weeks gestation. So Amy

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Speaker 2: is giving her all to Caitlin, being her emotional anchor

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Speaker 2: through forty hours of labor, barely sleeping or eating, and

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Speaker 2: she does her best to support the emotional young woman.

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Speaker 2: As labor intensifies, Amy encourages Caitlin to get into an

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Speaker 2: uber and get to the hospital. This baby is coming soon.

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Speaker 2: Caitlyn gives birth to a beautiful, sleeping baby girl called Eden.

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Speaker 2: Over the phone. The new mum describes holding her, having

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Speaker 2: skinned to skin with her, meeting her a beautiful but

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Speaker 2: heartbreaking experience. But Caitlin was never pregnant. She didn't give birth,

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Speaker 2: and she never went to hospital. She was lying to

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Speaker 2: Amy the entire time, through days and hours upon hours

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Speaker 2: of phone calls. And this isn't the first time she's

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Speaker 2: done this. I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations,

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Speaker 2: a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking

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Speaker 2: to the people who know the most about them. Caitlyn

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Speaker 2: Brawn is a repeat offender. As recently as January twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five, she pled guilty to fresh charges in court

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Speaker 2: at the age of twenty six. She has dozens of victims.

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Speaker 2: She's a serial con woman, and to stick well, she

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Speaker 2: pretends she's pregnant and in the need of emergency support.

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Speaker 2: Even with time behind bars and apologies and promises in

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Speaker 2: court Caitlyn has repeated her crime over and over again.

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Speaker 2: Sarah Trelevan is a journalist and immersed herself in Caitlyn's

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Speaker 2: bizarre crimes for more than a year and a half,

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Speaker 2: trying to make sense of them. This year, she released

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Speaker 2: a podcast, The con Caitlyn's Baby, which tells those stories.

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Speaker 2: Sarah joins us, Now, Sarah, can you tell us a

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Speaker 2: little bit about your background and how you found yourself

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Speaker 2: investigating the story?

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Speaker 1: Sure, I mean, this story came my way and it

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Speaker 1: was sort of both immediately shocking and completely up my

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Speaker 1: alley and I just saw a headline and I'm paraphrasing,

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Speaker 1: but it was something along the line of like women

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Speaker 1: fakes multiple pregnancies, lies to doulas, something like that. It

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Speaker 1: was just sort of a very small kernel of what

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Speaker 1: this story is. And my hands, as soon as I

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Speaker 1: saw that, were like shaking as I went to go

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Speaker 1: do some more research on what actually had happened, because

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Speaker 1: I immediately knew that there was like this whole world

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Speaker 1: there associated with this woman to explore. And part of

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Speaker 1: how I knew that is that for many years, really

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Speaker 1: almost a decade, I've had a real fascination I would

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Speaker 1: say broadly in women who live double lives, but particularly

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Speaker 1: women who have factitious disorder or related disorders, women who

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Speaker 1: feign illnesses or crises for emotional gratifications. So not the

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Speaker 1: go fundme scammers we're all you seeing, but people who

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Speaker 1: do it to meet an emotional need. It's such an

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Speaker 1: interesting thing to me, and such an outsize, maladaptive activity,

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Speaker 1: and so I found it absolutely fascinating, and I immediately

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Speaker 1: gravitated towards Kitlin's story and wanted to know much as possible.

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Speaker 2: What do we know about Kaitlin Braun and her background

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Speaker 2: and her childhood. Can you set the scene a bit.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are parts of Caitlyn's life that we

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Speaker 1: haven't been able to access yet, but we do know

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Speaker 1: quite a bit about her through friends, through family members,

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Speaker 1: through just how public this case became, not just Canada

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Speaker 1: but globally. And so we know that Caitlyn grew up

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Speaker 1: in a relatively rural community outside of Toronto. She was

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Speaker 1: I'm not very happy kid, you know. I mean, when

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Speaker 1: we start to look at her life trajectory, I don't

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Speaker 1: think there's any one particular causal reason that she ended

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Speaker 1: up doing what she did, but from a very early age.

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Speaker 1: Friends and family members report her having a pretty serious

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Speaker 1: anxiety her parents' divorce. When she was young, she had

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Speaker 1: separation anxiety. She reported feeling rejected by her father. You know,

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Speaker 1: one of the anecdotes that I've heard that has stayed

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Speaker 1: with me is that when Caitlyn's mother would go to work,

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Speaker 1: this was after her parents' divorce. Kitlyn's mother would go

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Speaker 1: to work and Caitlyn, who was quite young at the time,

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Speaker 1: would repeatedly call her and ask for reassurances that she

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Speaker 1: was coming home. And so I think you see from

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Speaker 1: a fairly early age this very profound sense of difference

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Speaker 1: and alienation and kind of a bottomless pit of need.

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Speaker 1: You know, she wanted friends to be super affectionate with her.

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Speaker 1: She wanted physical touch, but she also wanted emotional intimacy.

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Speaker 1: Time this graduates to fabrications in order to get what

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Speaker 1: she wants. The compassion she needs, the attention she needs,

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Speaker 1: the intimacy she needs. But at the same time, Caitlyn

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Speaker 1: is seemingly a somewhat productive member of society. You know,

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Speaker 1: she graduates from high school, she graduates from university, she

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Speaker 1: becomes a social worker. She is working with vulnerable populations,

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Speaker 1: of people. And it's really interesting to go back and

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Speaker 1: look at caitlyn social media now, because you know the

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Speaker 1: media surrounding this case, and also you know just images

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Speaker 1: that people have grabbed and posts on social media, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of those images Caitlyn has like what I

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Speaker 1: would call like crazy eyes, where like you're looking at

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Speaker 1: this picture of her, yeah, and you're like, well, how

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Speaker 1: would you not know that this perfect person, you know,

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Speaker 1: was not a safe person. But you go back and

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Speaker 1: you look at the breadth of her, her presence online,

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Speaker 1: how she comported herself who she presented as, and you know,

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Speaker 1: she was a very young woman in her early twenties,

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Speaker 1: sort of making her way in the world. She appeared

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Speaker 1: to be altruistic, she appeared to be a devout Christian.

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Speaker 1: She had this sort of cover for this double life

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Speaker 1: that she was living, and it was very convincing.

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Speaker 2: I need to ask straight up because it was a

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Speaker 2: question that sat in the back of my head the

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Speaker 2: entire time I kind of was listening to your podcast

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Speaker 2: and researching this story. Do we know if Kaitlin has

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Speaker 2: ever been pregnant?

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Speaker 1: We do not know that. As a matter of fact, No,

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Speaker 1: we don't know.

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Speaker 2: That, which is a fascinating question when we stop getting

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Speaker 2: into it.

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Speaker 1: I understand from friends of Caitlin's that she did not

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Speaker 1: have romantic entanglements. Now that doesn't mean she couldn't have

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Speaker 1: been pregnant, but we do know, for example, she didn't

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Speaker 1: have romantic entanglements that would have, for example, led to

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Speaker 1: a pregnancy. Now, people can get pregight in other ways

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Speaker 1: by choice and not. But I think that that was

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Speaker 1: sort of one one of the key questions that was

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Speaker 1: asked very early on when people found out that she

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Speaker 1: was faking pregnancies, right, Like, maybe she did at some

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Speaker 1: point legitimately lose a pregnancy and this was part of

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Speaker 1: how she was coping with it, Like, this was how

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Speaker 1: the trauma was being expressed. But we don't have any

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Speaker 1: information about that, and we have no indication that that

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Speaker 1: is in fact something that.

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Speaker 2: Happened before she does get into the faking pregnancies world.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to call it, was she lying about other things,

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Speaker 2: like as a teenager, as a young adult before she

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Speaker 2: kind of found this particular area.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the thing about it, a lot of

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Speaker 1: Caitlin's lies that we know about are nested, So it's

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Speaker 1: lie nested in a lie nested in another lie, and

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Speaker 1: you actually see that start to happen pretty early in

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Speaker 1: her life, like really by her kind of mid to

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Speaker 1: late teens. You know, a number of friends have told

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Speaker 1: me that she lied to them that sexually assaulted. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's really hard to obviously make that assertion period, It's

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Speaker 1: really hard to say that about anyone, let alone a

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Speaker 1: good friend. But some of these friends, it got to

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Speaker 1: the point where she was literally coming to them on

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Speaker 1: a weekly basis saying she had been sexually assaulted and

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Speaker 1: by different people in different context to the point where

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Speaker 1: it did strain curdualy. It just didn't make sense. And

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Speaker 1: all of these friends I spoke to who reported this

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Speaker 1: said they tried to believe her, and they wanted to

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Speaker 1: believe her, and then they got to this unbelievably challenging

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Speaker 1: position in the friendship where they were like, this is

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Speaker 1: not plausible, and I don't know what to do with that,

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Speaker 1: because you're coming to me and you're telling me you

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Speaker 1: need help for something that is indisputably awful, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like there's something else going on here. And that's

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Speaker 1: where it started to tip, and people started to feel

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Speaker 1: like they're being taken advantage of. But I will say

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Speaker 1: the allegations of have been reported to US as false allegations,

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Speaker 1: and Caitlyn has been charged with making false allegations. Those

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Speaker 1: often were accompanied by lies about being pregnant, and that

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Speaker 1: started years ago. That did not start with her outreach

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Speaker 1: to doulas. It started long before. I think she tested

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Speaker 1: a lot of waters with family members she's now a

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Speaker 1: strange from, with friends she's now a strange from. But

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Speaker 1: we do know that those sort of core lies that

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Speaker 1: she perpetuated with the doulas, lying about being sexually assaulted

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Speaker 1: and then lying about being pregnant as a result of

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Speaker 1: that assault, that has been going on for some time,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that she's still a very young woman.

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Speaker 2: She did start to kind of focusing on duelas as

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Speaker 2: I guess her victim in this scenario. How would you

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Speaker 2: describe the kind of contry created there, because it's pretty

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Speaker 2: similar from victim to victim, but it changes slightly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'll say stuff taught that Caitlin was

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Speaker 1: really bit this. I mean, she was really good at

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Speaker 1: picking a victim and then super capably manipulating them. So

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Speaker 1: what she would do is reach out to a doula.

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Speaker 1: We don't know this as a matter of fact, but

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Speaker 1: the dulas I spoke to have told me that they

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Speaker 1: got the sense that she kind of investigated them before

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Speaker 1: she did outreach because sort of magically, you know, dulas

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Speaker 1: that were queer Caitlin presented as queer doulas who were

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Speaker 1: Christian Kitla presented as Christian. One doula had a sister

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Speaker 1: who had fallen into a coma. At the end of

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Speaker 1: Caitlin's sort of very long protracted con with this doula

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Speaker 1: where everything went wrong medically, she lapsed into a coma,

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Speaker 1: And so a lot of these duos felt like this

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Speaker 1: was an extra layer of manipulation. She would actually find

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Speaker 1: their individual sort of pressure point and push them to

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Speaker 1: maximize her ability to create intimacy, almost like an affinity scam. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The other thing she did is she just had an

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Speaker 1: incredibly tragic story that was that all of these dulas

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Speaker 1: who work with women who have have have been sexually assaulted,

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Speaker 1: who have experienced stillbirth, who have been mistreated in the

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Speaker 1: medical health system, Caitlyn used all those things and weaponized

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Speaker 1: them against these duelas because these dulas were primed to

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Speaker 1: be on there on her side, because they've seen all

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Speaker 1: these things before, they knew these things happen. They couldn't

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Speaker 1: believe that all these things were happening to one person.

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Speaker 1: But almost immediately, you know, Caitlyn said, I'm experiencing all

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Speaker 1: these horrific things. I've been sexually assaulted. I'm now pregnant,

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Speaker 1: the baby is stillborn. My family has rejected me because

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Speaker 1: either because I wanted to keep the baby, or sometimes

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Speaker 1: it was because she was queer. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: go to the hospital because you know, I've been mistreated

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Speaker 1: at the hospital. The dulas, you know, we're told that

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Speaker 1: they were the only person that could help her, which

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Speaker 1: is an enormous responsibility to take on. But all of

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Speaker 1: these doulas have signed up to take care of people,

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Speaker 1: even in incredibly rough circumstances. So that additional layer of manipulation,

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Speaker 1: I think made it very hard for these doulas to

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Speaker 1: set any boundaries to question her narrative. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: really easy to listen now and say, well, who would

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Speaker 1: believe this? But these dulas were you know, Caitlin was

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Speaker 1: calling them, you know, at three o'clock in the morning,

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Speaker 1: and then four o'clock in the morning, and then five

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Speaker 1: point thirty. I mean they were sleep deprived, some of

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Speaker 1: them were barely eating. You know, when Caitlyn there was

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Speaker 1: a case involving Caitlyn not too long ago, and part

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Speaker 1: of the evidence was that she had sent a doula

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Speaker 1: six hundred text messages in two days. Wow, that is

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Speaker 1: enormous volume of communication to keep up with, and you

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Speaker 1: barely have time to think when someone is bombard earning

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Speaker 1: you with their needs like that.

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Speaker 2: You also don't automatically go to someone he's lying. If

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Speaker 2: someone is asking for help and telling you all these

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Speaker 2: horrible things, you're not immediately going to be like, well,

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Speaker 2: if better investigate them before I help them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I think it's just that's not what

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Speaker 1: doulas do, right, if you have to build trust almost

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Speaker 1: immediately in order to do the kind of intimate work

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Speaker 1: that doulists do, you know. And I think they're also

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Speaker 1: they deal with women who are not believed in a

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Speaker 1: lot of different contexts, including you know, in the context

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Speaker 1: of medicalized pregnancies, in the context of you know, sexual assault. Again,

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Speaker 1: these things that Caitlin really tend to And so a

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Speaker 1: doula is someone who's going to be on your side,

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Speaker 1: and it is not that person's role to doubt what

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Speaker 1: you're telling them to sort of, you know, to use,

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Speaker 1: you know, their critical analytical skills to like think back

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Speaker 1: on whether the timing of your you know, story really

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Speaker 1: makes sense. That that's not what they're there to do.

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Speaker 1: They're there to provide support you when you tell them,

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Speaker 1: they that you need it, and they're there to believe you.

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Speaker 2: For those that aren't familiar with the birth world, can

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Speaker 2: you explain, because adula is very different to a midwife

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Speaker 2: in terms of the services that they offer.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So this is also where people get confused because

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Speaker 1: they're kind of like, didn't they notice that, like caitlin

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Speaker 1: cervix wasn't dilated. That's not what a doula does, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not They're not medical professionals, and so they're there

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Speaker 1: less to help you give birth, like the actual physical

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Speaker 1: act of giving birth, and more to provide you with

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Speaker 1: emotional and educational support, and they're very focused on the mother,

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Speaker 1: Like what does that person need at any given moment,

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Speaker 1: Like the person who's going to give birth, what did

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Speaker 1: they need? What kind of reassurance do they need? What

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Speaker 1: do they need for physical relief? What do they need

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Speaker 1: for emotional relief. They what information do they need right now?

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Speaker 1: And you know it can start long for labor and

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Speaker 1: you know, go beyond the burthen of the baby. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's very different than a midwife who's like measuring your

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Speaker 1: belly and checking, you know, and and doing physical checks

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Speaker 1: and obviously quite different a doctor. So you know, again

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Speaker 1: it's it's not a trust but verified position. There's there's

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Speaker 1: not really a verification role involved in being a doula.

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Speaker 1: It's about trusting the person who's come to you and

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Speaker 1: said they need help.

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Speaker 2: I also think something to consider with the role of

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Speaker 2: a dueler is because they are helping women in you know,

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Speaker 2: the most vulnerable often the most vulnerable time of their life.

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Speaker 2: They share a lot of vulnerabilities themselves to kind of

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Speaker 2: get that trust so they might open up about their

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Speaker 2: own lives. Like it's a very emotional job. You are

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Speaker 2: trying to create a very special emotional connection to get

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Speaker 2: that woman through, which adds a whole other kind of

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Speaker 2: layer to this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and it's also it's a lot of

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Speaker 1: time like that you spend with somebody, you know, think

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Speaker 1: about like some times women are labor for days and

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Speaker 1: it's literally like you know, a doula. It's like I

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Speaker 1: you know, we were chatting earlier, I mentioned you know,

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Speaker 1: this is when Dula I met has a deal in

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Speaker 1: her contract where she gets to take a break after

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours. I mean that's twenty four hours of

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Speaker 1: being with this woman or this person who's in labor

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Speaker 1: and helping them by like offering them massage or like,

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Speaker 1: you know, doing things to help induce labor, or like

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Speaker 1: talking them through things or explaining what's about to happen.

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Speaker 1: But there's also time between you know, contractions, when things

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Speaker 1: speed up, when things slow down, where it's just the

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Speaker 1: two of you sitting on the couch together, or like

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Speaker 1: take a nap on the bed, you know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's that's the other intimacy of this. It's just and

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Speaker 1: especially in the context of somebody who's unaccompanied, like Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: who doesn't have like a partner there for example. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a very fast bond that I think is established

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Speaker 1: in that set of circumstances. And yeah, these these dulas

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Speaker 1: absolutely be came vulnerable with Caitlin in part because Caitlin

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Speaker 1: was sharing so much and so much heavy, heavy, heavy

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Speaker 1: trauma that yeah, I mean, I think it's human nature

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Speaker 1: to want to reciprocate on some level.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath.

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Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Sarah trelevan journalist and host of the

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Speaker 2: podcast The con Caitlin's Baby. Next, we dive into the

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Speaker 2: stories of Amy and Katie, two duelers who believe Caitlin

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Speaker 2: had given birth to a stillborn baby, but that was

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Speaker 2: only the start of the dramatic lies she told them.

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Speaker 2: I want to tell some of these women's stories just

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Speaker 2: to give listeners an idea of how deep this con

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Speaker 2: went and this emotional attachment went. I want to start

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Speaker 2: with Amy's story, which I kind of told the start

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Speaker 2: of at the start of this episode. I cut it

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Speaker 2: right after she gave birth to a stillborn baby called Eden,

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Speaker 2: whose pregnancy she said was the result of an assault.

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Speaker 2: But the birth was actually only the start, really of

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Speaker 2: what she put Amy and her fellow kind of duel

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Speaker 2: if Katie through. They were kind of tagged teeming through

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Speaker 2: this situation, weren't they? Can you kind of pick us

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Speaker 2: up at there were that point because they were providing

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Speaker 2: her support over the phone. They've already provided days of

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Speaker 2: support to get her to birth and then it just

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Speaker 2: keeps going.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so Amy and Katie are they're duelers who are friendly.

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Speaker 1: They're working together partly because Katie had other job obligations,

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Speaker 1: and neither of them knowing how traumatic Caitlin's situation was,

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Speaker 1: how vulnerable she was, wanted her to be alone at

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Speaker 1: any point, so they really sort of bent over backwards

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Speaker 1: to accommodate at Caitlin. Caitlyn gives birth to Eden. It

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Speaker 1: is She describes it as a really beautiful moment that

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Speaker 1: she finally gets to meet her baby, and you know

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Speaker 1: it sort of I think Amy describes it as, you know,

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Speaker 1: as nice as a stillbirth can be, you know, where

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Speaker 1: she sees her baby, she gets to hold her baby,

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Speaker 1: and then she has to let her go. This sort

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Speaker 1: of feels to Katie and Amy, who are who working

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Speaker 1: to Caitlyn only over the phone because this is in

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Speaker 1: the thick of COVID and they're not able to get

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Speaker 1: into the hospital. This feels to them like kind of

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Speaker 1: the end of a really sad story. But not long

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Speaker 1: after Caitlyn gives birth, she sort of starts making noises.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like she's in this comfort and Amy's on

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Speaker 1: the phone with her, and she says, what's what's happening?

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Speaker 1: Like described him is going on? So she has to

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Speaker 1: deliver the placenta, and she's describing the discomfort, which you know,

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Speaker 1: Amy sort of says is normal, you know, just kind

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Speaker 1: of let your body do what it needs to do.

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Speaker 1: But then once she delivers the placenta, there's more bleeding,

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Speaker 1: and the bleeding won't stop. And then Caitlyn starts to

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Speaker 1: get very worried because that doctors appear very worried, and

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Speaker 1: she's telling Amy this over the phone, and so the

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Speaker 1: doctors do some exploration and eventually what they tell her

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Speaker 1: is that she has to have a hysterectomy. Now, Caitlin

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Speaker 1: at this point is, I believe a twenty three year

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Speaker 1: old woman who has just given birth to a stillborn

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Speaker 1: baby that was a product of a sexual assault, who

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Speaker 1: was and it was very much a wanted baby, who

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Speaker 1: is now being told that she will never have her

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Speaker 1: own children. And so Amy and then of course Katie

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Speaker 1: as well, they are absolutely devastated for Caitlin, like they

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Speaker 1: cannot believe this is happening, and so they all sort

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Speaker 1: of grieve together and talk it through and you know,

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Speaker 1: try to provide what emotional support they can for her.

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Speaker 1: But then the problem is the bleeding still isn't stopping,

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Speaker 1: even after the emergency has directed me. So the doctors

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Speaker 1: do more exploration and they find that she actually has

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Speaker 1: stage four pelvic cancer and her prognosis is extremely dim.

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Speaker 1: Kitlyn decides she doesn't really want to go through after

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Speaker 1: everything she's been through, super invasive treatment that's that she's

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Speaker 1: been told that she's reporting to Amy and Katie is

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Speaker 1: unlikely to work, so she's just going to go with

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Speaker 1: hospice care.

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Speaker 2: So now she's dying.

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Speaker 1: So now Caitlyn is dying and looking at palliative care options,

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Speaker 1: and she's reading from brochures for hospice care places where

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Speaker 1: she can go into palliative care until the end of

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Speaker 1: her life, which appears to be soon, And she's reading

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Speaker 1: from what she says are brochures that the hospital has

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Speaker 1: given to her so she can look into where she

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Speaker 1: wants to go. And it's very detailed, like Amy helped

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Speaker 1: Caitlyn write a will and think about you know, who

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Speaker 1: should Amy and Katie tell when Caitlyn dies, because Kaitlyn

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Speaker 1: has very little contact with her family, and like, what

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Speaker 1: can they do? For her to facilitate, you know, to

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Speaker 1: facilitate any remaining relationship there, like and who should should

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Speaker 1: they announce her death on social media? Does Caitlyn want

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Speaker 1: them to talk to her friends? I mean, all these

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Speaker 1: things that might come up if you thought someone was

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Speaker 1: dying and did not have anyone else in the world.

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Speaker 1: So it's all incredibly sad. And at this point, Amy

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Speaker 1: and Katie have been kept mostly awake for like a week,

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Speaker 1: you know that Caitlin is calling them at all times

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Speaker 1: of the day. So at this point, Caitlyn tells Amy

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Speaker 1: and Katie that she's being transferred to another hospital, a

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Speaker 1: hospital that is going to evaluate her cancer and give

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Speaker 1: her like an updated prognosis. So Amy and Katy hear

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Speaker 1: her being loaded into an ambulance. In the ambulance, she

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Speaker 1: starts to describe feeling uncomfortable, and it's not entirely clear

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Speaker 1: what's going on to Amy, who's on the phone with

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Speaker 1: her at that time. And basically what Caitlyn goes on

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Speaker 1: to describe is a doctor coming into the ambulance and

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Speaker 1: raping her while Katie is on the phone. And at

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Speaker 1: some point Caitlyn hangs up and Amy is obviously completely

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Speaker 1: beside herself and she and Katie trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: what they're supposed to do. Caitlyn calls back, she is,

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Speaker 1: you know, has already been in touch with the police,

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Speaker 1: and it's going to be reported. It's all, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just a mess basically. So and then Caitlyn reports

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Speaker 1: that these doctors are are that this doctor and I

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Speaker 1: think there was another doctor implicated, and like there's going

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Speaker 1: to be an arrest made, and you're talking about and

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Speaker 1: oh and Caitlyn gave Amy and Katie the names of

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Speaker 1: doctors that she'd implicated in her sexual assault and when

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Speaker 1: when Amy and Katy googled them, they had privileges at

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Speaker 1: the hospital that Caitlyn said she was at. So the

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Speaker 1: story sort of checks out.

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Speaker 2: So it's all backed up.

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Speaker 1: It's yeah, yeah, And so anyways, after this happens and

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Speaker 1: after these arrests are supposedly made, Amy's girlfriend at the

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Speaker 1: time says, you know, I am going to reach out

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Speaker 1: to a journalist I know, and just see if she's

430
00:25:13,671 --> 00:25:16,911
Speaker 1: heard anything about this, because it would be pretty big

431
00:25:16,952 --> 00:25:20,472
Speaker 1: news if like a doctor at one of you know,

432
00:25:20,671 --> 00:25:24,272
Speaker 1: at one of the large hospitals was arrested for raping

433
00:25:24,311 --> 00:25:27,152
Speaker 1: a patient in the man ambulance, like that is definitely

434
00:25:27,192 --> 00:25:28,871
Speaker 1: something that would be newsworthy.

435
00:25:28,552 --> 00:25:31,472
Speaker 2: A dying woman who's just given birth, Like it doesn't

436
00:25:31,472 --> 00:25:34,111
Speaker 2: get more headline worthy exactly.

437
00:25:34,351 --> 00:25:38,752
Speaker 1: So she does some poking around and she can't find anything.

438
00:25:39,032 --> 00:25:41,232
Speaker 1: She can't find anything, She can't find any signs of

439
00:25:41,272 --> 00:25:46,511
Speaker 1: the story. So she finally says to Amy, don't you

440
00:25:46,552 --> 00:25:49,552
Speaker 1: think it's a little strange that all of these things

441
00:25:49,591 --> 00:25:52,552
Speaker 1: have happened to the same person or the last ten days?

442
00:25:53,952 --> 00:25:57,151
Speaker 1: And Amy says, at that point something kind of clicked

443
00:25:57,151 --> 00:26:01,472
Speaker 1: for her. It was like, yes, it is actually now

444
00:26:01,512 --> 00:26:04,711
Speaker 1: that you mention it through my fog of sleep deprivation

445
00:26:04,831 --> 00:26:09,472
Speaker 1: and my desperate efforts too to help this failing woman, Like, yeah,

446
00:26:09,671 --> 00:26:11,792
Speaker 1: it is a bit odd that all of these things

447
00:26:11,792 --> 00:26:15,071
Speaker 1: have happened to the same person. And that's when Amy

448
00:26:15,472 --> 00:26:19,992
Speaker 1: remembers something, which is at some point when Caitlin is

449
00:26:20,032 --> 00:26:24,591
Speaker 1: in this hospital bed getting you know which string of

450
00:26:24,712 --> 00:26:29,232
Speaker 1: bad news I can't remember, Amy heard a dog bark,

451
00:26:30,671 --> 00:26:35,592
Speaker 1: which is not something one normally hears when they're dying

452
00:26:35,671 --> 00:26:41,191
Speaker 1: in a hospital room. So so once once that clicked

453
00:26:41,232 --> 00:26:43,992
Speaker 1: in her brain, she and Katie went down this rabbit

454
00:26:43,992 --> 00:26:47,391
Speaker 1: hole where they just basically were like looking into all

455
00:26:47,391 --> 00:26:50,831
Speaker 1: the communications that Caitlyn had sent them. You know, they

456
00:26:50,911 --> 00:26:55,471
Speaker 1: were reverse image searching the pictures of the tumors that

457
00:26:55,631 --> 00:26:57,831
Speaker 1: come or the big blood clots that had come out

458
00:26:57,831 --> 00:27:00,991
Speaker 1: of her body and finding them on Wikipedia. And then

459
00:27:01,311 --> 00:27:04,831
Speaker 1: finally I think it was Katie who called the hospital

460
00:27:04,952 --> 00:27:06,912
Speaker 1: and said, do you have a patient by the name

461
00:27:06,952 --> 00:27:10,792
Speaker 1: of Caitlin Brawn And they said no. So at that

462
00:27:10,871 --> 00:27:14,431
Speaker 1: point they knew, they knew, but they also didn't know

463
00:27:14,792 --> 00:27:17,552
Speaker 1: right because you then know that this is not true,

464
00:27:17,552 --> 00:27:19,792
Speaker 1: which he's been telling you is not true, But there's

465
00:27:19,792 --> 00:27:23,112
Speaker 1: still the much bigger mystery of why would someone do

466
00:27:23,192 --> 00:27:25,151
Speaker 1: this too? And why would someone do this to you?

467
00:27:25,192 --> 00:27:28,112
Speaker 1: For ten days it didn't make any sense. So then

468
00:27:28,111 --> 00:27:30,071
Speaker 1: they had a whole new odyssey basically to go on.

469
00:27:31,391 --> 00:27:34,031
Speaker 2: Did they confront her, did they talk to her about it,

470
00:27:34,151 --> 00:27:35,752
Speaker 2: or did they just kind of disappear.

471
00:27:36,712 --> 00:27:38,871
Speaker 1: I think they just sort of disappeared, And I think,

472
00:27:39,752 --> 00:27:43,191
Speaker 1: you know, I don't. I think there are a couple

473
00:27:44,032 --> 00:27:50,511
Speaker 1: dulas who confronted Caitlin. But what's interesting is they were

474
00:27:50,552 --> 00:27:53,471
Speaker 1: either doulas who were not directly involved with her, or

475
00:27:53,512 --> 00:27:58,151
Speaker 1: i'd say had like less traumatic experiences and I think

476
00:27:58,552 --> 00:28:03,232
Speaker 1: the instinct of most of the Dulas who felt very

477
00:28:03,311 --> 00:28:07,992
Speaker 1: wounded by you know, Caitlyn's deep minute, by basically having

478
00:28:08,032 --> 00:28:12,071
Speaker 1: their sense of reality destroyed by her, their first instinct

479
00:28:12,151 --> 00:28:14,311
Speaker 1: was just to get as far away from her as possible.

480
00:28:14,552 --> 00:28:20,191
Speaker 2: In Amy and Kitie's story, the pot that baffled me,

481
00:28:21,192 --> 00:28:24,431
Speaker 2: a lot of it baffled me. But she was able

482
00:28:24,472 --> 00:28:26,711
Speaker 2: to fight a lot of kind of sounds, Like she

483
00:28:26,792 --> 00:28:29,632
Speaker 2: got on a helicopter at one point, she was in cars,

484
00:28:29,831 --> 00:28:33,311
Speaker 2: she was beeping in hospitals. How did she pull that off?

485
00:28:33,351 --> 00:28:33,792
Speaker 2: Do we know?

486
00:28:35,151 --> 00:28:37,232
Speaker 1: No, we don't know. We don't know. I mean people

487
00:28:37,311 --> 00:28:40,632
Speaker 1: report her getting into an uber and like hearing her

488
00:28:40,632 --> 00:28:43,112
Speaker 1: getting into an uber and talking to the driver, and

489
00:28:43,352 --> 00:28:46,152
Speaker 1: they can hear the car is going, you know. So

490
00:28:46,872 --> 00:28:50,911
Speaker 1: I wonder if it was a combination of like sound

491
00:28:50,952 --> 00:28:54,112
Speaker 1: effects off her computer and a combination of actually doing

492
00:28:54,152 --> 00:28:57,032
Speaker 1: some of these things. Like, I mean, she really got

493
00:28:57,032 --> 00:28:59,072
Speaker 1: off on pretending to be pregnant, So maybe she also

494
00:28:59,112 --> 00:29:01,911
Speaker 1: really got off on pretending to get on really getting

495
00:29:01,911 --> 00:29:04,392
Speaker 1: into an uber and going to a hospital to give birth.

496
00:29:04,832 --> 00:29:07,991
Speaker 1: You know, maybe she was walking around a hospital and

497
00:29:08,032 --> 00:29:10,232
Speaker 1: that's why they heard some of these background noises like

498
00:29:10,272 --> 00:29:13,751
Speaker 1: people being paiged or things like you know, buzzing or dinging.

499
00:29:14,352 --> 00:29:17,872
Speaker 1: So we don't know, We don't really have an answer

500
00:29:17,872 --> 00:29:19,552
Speaker 1: for that. And so far as I know, there's no like,

501
00:29:19,872 --> 00:29:24,312
Speaker 1: you know, pregnancy Baker sound effects set you can file

502
00:29:24,352 --> 00:29:29,792
Speaker 1: off down to the app store. But many people I

503
00:29:29,872 --> 00:29:32,392
Speaker 1: spoke to have told me that they did hear these

504
00:29:32,431 --> 00:29:35,191
Speaker 1: things going on in the background, So she was you know,

505
00:29:35,232 --> 00:29:37,352
Speaker 1: I think it just sort of speaks to how deeply

506
00:29:37,392 --> 00:29:39,272
Speaker 1: committed she was to fooling people.

507
00:29:39,992 --> 00:29:42,992
Speaker 2: Just how many victims are we talking about? How many

508
00:29:43,032 --> 00:29:47,552
Speaker 2: Dulas have been Kitelin's victim?

509
00:29:48,232 --> 00:29:51,271
Speaker 1: We don't know, and I suspect, as with many of

510
00:29:51,312 --> 00:29:54,952
Speaker 1: these sort of crimes that involved intimacy, is probably more

511
00:29:54,992 --> 00:29:57,472
Speaker 1: than we know of. What we do know is that

512
00:29:57,592 --> 00:29:59,991
Speaker 1: at one point there was a group chat of doulas

513
00:30:00,152 --> 00:30:04,152
Speaker 1: who had all had experiences being lied to by Caitlin,

514
00:30:04,992 --> 00:30:08,231
Speaker 1: and the last I checked in, there were over fifty

515
00:30:08,272 --> 00:30:09,232
Speaker 1: Dulas in that group.

516
00:30:09,671 --> 00:30:12,552
Speaker 2: And we've just heard one of those stories, like one

517
00:30:12,552 --> 00:30:16,072
Speaker 2: of like fifty times.

518
00:30:16,671 --> 00:30:19,392
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, they varied, they weren't all you know.

519
00:30:19,472 --> 00:30:22,112
Speaker 1: I mean, what's also interesting about Caitlyn is it wasn't

520
00:30:22,152 --> 00:30:25,191
Speaker 1: all done virtually or on the phone, like some of

521
00:30:25,192 --> 00:30:28,392
Speaker 1: these duelas met her, and you know, sometimes when they

522
00:30:28,431 --> 00:30:30,592
Speaker 1: met her, she was giving birth to a live baby.

523
00:30:30,712 --> 00:30:33,072
Speaker 1: She was still pregnant as the result of a sexual assault,

524
00:30:33,632 --> 00:30:37,392
Speaker 1: she was still struggling with family relationships, but she was

525
00:30:37,431 --> 00:30:40,032
Speaker 1: giving birth to a live baby. But she told them.

526
00:30:40,072 --> 00:30:44,791
Speaker 1: And so you know, we've seen pictures of Kitlin in labor,

527
00:30:45,472 --> 00:30:49,752
Speaker 1: tended over but taken by doulas, and she really appears

528
00:30:49,872 --> 00:30:53,751
Speaker 1: to be exhausted and sweaty and going through the motions

529
00:30:53,752 --> 00:30:54,231
Speaker 1: of labor.

530
00:30:54,392 --> 00:30:56,671
Speaker 2: Well, let's paint that picture a little bit through Kate,

531
00:30:56,992 --> 00:31:01,352
Speaker 2: because Kate was a duela that saw her in person

532
00:31:02,352 --> 00:31:04,912
Speaker 2: at a house or her house might not have been

533
00:31:04,911 --> 00:31:05,911
Speaker 2: her house, who knows.

534
00:31:07,032 --> 00:31:07,912
Speaker 1: Yeah, but.

535
00:31:09,392 --> 00:31:12,032
Speaker 2: She did see some red flags kind of from the beginning.

536
00:31:12,032 --> 00:31:14,272
Speaker 2: Didn't she beang in person with her?

537
00:31:14,992 --> 00:31:18,192
Speaker 1: You know, there was something Kate's really interesting because I'm

538
00:31:18,192 --> 00:31:23,392
Speaker 1: not sure that there was anything in particular that Caitlyn

539
00:31:23,512 --> 00:31:29,752
Speaker 1: did or said, but Kate had a gut feeling that

540
00:31:29,832 --> 00:31:34,031
Speaker 1: this something was off about this situation. And you know,

541
00:31:34,152 --> 00:31:38,312
Speaker 1: she's going over to Caitlyn's house or you know, I'm

542
00:31:38,392 --> 00:31:40,592
Speaker 1: unclear whether it's her house or it was an airbnb

543
00:31:40,671 --> 00:31:43,472
Speaker 1: she rented but she's going over to a house where

544
00:31:43,512 --> 00:31:47,112
Speaker 1: Kaitlyn says she's going to give birth, and one of

545
00:31:47,152 --> 00:31:50,471
Speaker 1: the thoughts that flashes into Kitlyn, that flashes into Kate's

546
00:31:50,512 --> 00:31:53,992
Speaker 1: mind is I'm going to be kidnapped. And it may

547
00:31:54,032 --> 00:31:58,512
Speaker 1: have been the fact that Caitlyn texted to her some

548
00:31:58,632 --> 00:32:02,512
Speaker 1: variation of I hope you don't mind naked or topless

549
00:32:02,552 --> 00:32:05,992
Speaker 1: when you get here, And there was something about that

550
00:32:05,992 --> 00:32:09,792
Speaker 1: that's seemed to imply a lot of boundaries that judgment.

551
00:32:10,192 --> 00:32:13,712
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how she unpacked it in her,

552
00:32:15,032 --> 00:32:17,792
Speaker 1: but there was something about that where Kate just thought,

553
00:32:18,232 --> 00:32:22,431
Speaker 1: there's something off here and this this is a bit dangerous,

554
00:32:22,472 --> 00:32:24,872
Speaker 1: but she couldn't articulate it. And then, of course, when

555
00:32:24,872 --> 00:32:27,431
Speaker 1: she gets there, and Caitlyn is a woman in her

556
00:32:27,472 --> 00:32:30,431
Speaker 1: young in her early twenties who desperately needs assistance and

557
00:32:30,552 --> 00:32:34,191
Speaker 1: lonely and is in discomfort and has a really sad story,

558
00:32:34,272 --> 00:32:37,752
Speaker 1: then Douela Kate, you know, takes over and she tries

559
00:32:37,792 --> 00:32:39,471
Speaker 1: to take care of Kitlin the best of her ability.

560
00:32:40,632 --> 00:32:44,312
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about the most sexual side of

561
00:32:44,431 --> 00:32:51,031
Speaker 2: Kate's experience, because she did that uncomfortableness you mentioned evolved

562
00:32:51,152 --> 00:32:54,632
Speaker 2: into some other kind of areas it did.

563
00:32:55,032 --> 00:32:59,032
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a number of the doulas mentioned that they

564
00:32:59,152 --> 00:33:04,192
Speaker 1: felt they feel that there was some form of sexual

565
00:33:04,312 --> 00:33:12,352
Speaker 1: gratification wrapped up in Caitlyn's emotivations. Kitlyn really wanted to

566
00:33:12,431 --> 00:33:16,592
Speaker 1: talk in graphic detail about her experience of being sexually assaulted,

567
00:33:17,232 --> 00:33:21,951
Speaker 1: doula's reported, you know, she really wanted them and encouraged

568
00:33:21,992 --> 00:33:25,392
Speaker 1: them very physical aspects of their work, you know, for example,

569
00:33:25,671 --> 00:33:28,512
Speaker 1: like massage, and then Caitlyn wanted to be naked while

570
00:33:28,552 --> 00:33:31,471
Speaker 1: she was being massaged, and I made a lot of

571
00:33:31,512 --> 00:33:33,911
Speaker 1: duelas really uncomfortable. But they also didn't want to make

572
00:33:33,952 --> 00:33:37,431
Speaker 1: Caitlyn uncomfortable because she was in labor and you know,

573
00:33:37,472 --> 00:33:39,752
Speaker 1: they're trying to make her as comfortable as possible.

574
00:33:39,472 --> 00:33:43,072
Speaker 2: And it's not unusual for laboring women to want to

575
00:33:43,112 --> 00:33:46,952
Speaker 2: be naked as well. That's what I wouldn't have questioned

576
00:33:46,952 --> 00:33:48,152
Speaker 2: certain parts of it.

577
00:33:49,152 --> 00:33:51,231
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, So all of that's and that's one

578
00:33:51,272 --> 00:33:53,352
Speaker 1: of the things that's really interesting too about Kaitlyn, Right,

579
00:33:53,992 --> 00:33:58,272
Speaker 1: she skirted. She stayed very close to the lines, where

580
00:33:58,472 --> 00:34:01,632
Speaker 1: like it was very easy to rationalize anything she was

581
00:34:01,671 --> 00:34:04,671
Speaker 1: telling you, even if you sort of felt like something

582
00:34:04,752 --> 00:34:09,872
Speaker 1: wasn't right. But other doulas, including Kate, also note that

583
00:34:09,911 --> 00:34:15,872
Speaker 1: they felt that Kitlyn was masturbating at the points when

584
00:34:15,872 --> 00:34:17,672
Speaker 1: they engaged with her, and most of the dulas that

585
00:34:17,712 --> 00:34:20,632
Speaker 1: I spoke to got that impression that she was masturbating

586
00:34:20,632 --> 00:34:23,031
Speaker 1: over the phone, especially when they were talking about more

587
00:34:23,072 --> 00:34:25,991
Speaker 1: physical aspects of giving birth, things like nipple stimulation and

588
00:34:26,031 --> 00:34:31,832
Speaker 1: things like that. Kate was giving Caitlyn a massage. Caitlyn

589
00:34:32,072 --> 00:34:35,352
Speaker 1: was undressed. They Kate lying on the bed or sort

590
00:34:35,392 --> 00:34:38,592
Speaker 1: of hunched over the bed, Kate was standing on the side.

591
00:34:38,792 --> 00:34:45,392
Speaker 1: She was massaging Caitlyn's shoulders, and then Kate believes that

592
00:34:45,471 --> 00:34:50,352
Speaker 1: she saw Caitlyn's hand touching her vulva and that she

593
00:34:50,431 --> 00:34:54,112
Speaker 1: was masturbating while this was happening, obviously all without Kate's consent,

594
00:34:55,431 --> 00:35:00,312
Speaker 1: and so you know, then very very quickly after that,

595
00:35:00,592 --> 00:35:04,151
Speaker 1: Caitlyn sort of discovers that Caitlyn is Kate, Caitlyn is

596
00:35:04,152 --> 00:35:06,712
Speaker 1: not who she said she was, and this sort of

597
00:35:06,832 --> 00:35:11,111
Speaker 1: alarming incident becomes like much more perilous.

598
00:35:11,632 --> 00:35:14,232
Speaker 2: How did she discover that? Was it a Google search?

599
00:35:15,551 --> 00:35:18,432
Speaker 2: Was she so uncomfortable that she kind of excused herself

600
00:35:18,431 --> 00:35:20,911
Speaker 2: and did a bit of research When.

601
00:35:20,752 --> 00:35:25,111
Speaker 1: She she believes that Caitlin is masturbating, and she's freaked out,

602
00:35:25,232 --> 00:35:27,991
Speaker 1: and she sort of walks into the other room like

603
00:35:28,072 --> 00:35:30,712
Speaker 1: excuses herself, and it's like her mind is sort of

604
00:35:30,752 --> 00:35:32,911
Speaker 1: spinning because she's like, who is this person and what

605
00:35:32,991 --> 00:35:35,712
Speaker 1: is she doing? And like what is this situation? You know,

606
00:35:35,752 --> 00:35:38,111
Speaker 1: she's trying to process, and then she kind of like

607
00:35:38,112 --> 00:35:41,232
Speaker 1: a jolt remember something, which is that on Facebook she

608
00:35:41,272 --> 00:35:44,551
Speaker 1: had read that there was a woman who was faking pregnancy.

609
00:35:44,991 --> 00:35:47,031
Speaker 1: And when she kind of remembered that, it was like

610
00:35:47,072 --> 00:35:49,872
Speaker 1: several pieces fell into place, because she was like, you know,

611
00:35:49,911 --> 00:35:52,431
Speaker 1: there were so many things off of this situation and

612
00:35:52,911 --> 00:35:54,911
Speaker 1: it seemed like they were conclusive enough for her to

613
00:35:54,951 --> 00:35:57,672
Speaker 1: walk away and leave this, you know, this woman with

614
00:35:57,712 --> 00:36:00,712
Speaker 1: this terrible story on her own. But once she remembers that,

615
00:36:00,752 --> 00:36:02,952
Speaker 1: she goes on Facebook and she does a search into

616
00:36:02,991 --> 00:36:06,832
Speaker 1: a group and she finds the post and the posts

617
00:36:07,431 --> 00:36:11,191
Speaker 1: that this woman's name is Katelyn Brown, and so at

618
00:36:11,232 --> 00:36:14,031
Speaker 1: that moment, Kate knows that's who's in the other room,

619
00:36:14,192 --> 00:36:17,752
Speaker 1: that is who she's dealing with, and she basically gets

620
00:36:17,752 --> 00:36:19,671
Speaker 1: over the apartment as quickly as she can, gets into

621
00:36:19,672 --> 00:36:20,751
Speaker 1: her car and speeds away.

622
00:36:21,232 --> 00:36:23,552
Speaker 2: The post that Kate found was made by another Duela

623
00:36:23,592 --> 00:36:28,471
Speaker 2: who was conned, called Shauna. She was kind of not

624
00:36:28,592 --> 00:36:30,711
Speaker 2: the first, but one of the first to really kind

625
00:36:30,752 --> 00:36:33,312
Speaker 2: of get the message out there, or try and get

626
00:36:33,312 --> 00:36:35,951
Speaker 2: the message out there and spread the word that there

627
00:36:36,031 --> 00:36:37,991
Speaker 2: was this person out there doing that. Can you tell

628
00:36:38,072 --> 00:36:42,591
Speaker 2: us about the community she ended up creating of all

629
00:36:42,632 --> 00:36:45,712
Speaker 2: of these women, sure, yeah.

630
00:36:45,511 --> 00:36:47,631
Speaker 1: So there were two duelers that really got the word

631
00:36:47,672 --> 00:36:51,512
Speaker 1: out that. You know, I think a lot of them posted,

632
00:36:51,632 --> 00:36:53,672
Speaker 1: but I would say the two of them had posts

633
00:36:53,712 --> 00:36:58,232
Speaker 1: that really really took on. One was another Amy Amy Silva,

634
00:36:59,112 --> 00:37:01,192
Speaker 1: who was one of the first duelers who posted on TikTok,

635
00:37:01,632 --> 00:37:05,632
Speaker 1: and the other one was Shanna, And I actually really

636
00:37:05,872 --> 00:37:09,312
Speaker 1: loved his story because, you know, Shauna was at the point,

637
00:37:09,352 --> 00:37:12,352
Speaker 1: as many of these duelas were, where she didn't feel

638
00:37:12,431 --> 00:37:15,272
Speaker 1: like police were listening. They told them, They told the

639
00:37:15,312 --> 00:37:17,392
Speaker 1: dulas that there wasn't really anything that they could do

640
00:37:17,431 --> 00:37:20,352
Speaker 1: and their only recourse was to warn people about Caitlin.

641
00:37:20,511 --> 00:37:22,471
Speaker 1: So they decided that's what they were going to do

642
00:37:22,551 --> 00:37:24,712
Speaker 1: to the best of their ability, So they take to

643
00:37:24,752 --> 00:37:28,991
Speaker 1: social media. Shawna makes this post about this really horrifying

644
00:37:28,991 --> 00:37:32,352
Speaker 1: experience she's had with with Caitlin, and you know, her

645
00:37:32,392 --> 00:37:37,192
Speaker 1: feelings about being misled, and it's a very very emotional post.

646
00:37:37,471 --> 00:37:41,112
Speaker 1: But that's not why it initially got traction. It initially

647
00:37:41,152 --> 00:37:44,911
Speaker 1: got traction because she meant to add the hashtag doulas

648
00:37:44,991 --> 00:37:48,232
Speaker 1: of TikTok and accidentally add the hash added the hashtag

649
00:37:48,511 --> 00:37:51,752
Speaker 1: dogs of TikTok, which I guess is like a very

650
00:37:52,471 --> 00:37:56,752
Speaker 1: a very devoted community of people who like immediately saw

651
00:37:56,792 --> 00:38:00,151
Speaker 1: this post and started boosting it. So I guess there's

652
00:38:00,152 --> 00:38:02,431
Speaker 1: like a lot of crossover in the dog doulah communities

653
00:38:02,431 --> 00:38:06,471
Speaker 1: of people who I love stories like this. Yes, so

654
00:38:06,951 --> 00:38:11,472
Speaker 1: her post absolutely exploded, and you know, I think within

655
00:38:11,632 --> 00:38:13,632
Speaker 1: a day or two of the duelis really starting to

656
00:38:13,632 --> 00:38:16,431
Speaker 1: post on TikTok, they had, you know, thousands and thousands

657
00:38:16,511 --> 00:38:19,431
Speaker 1: of views and Caitlin was ultimately arrested.

658
00:38:19,832 --> 00:38:21,431
Speaker 2: A lot of these duelis did try and go to

659
00:38:21,471 --> 00:38:25,312
Speaker 2: the police. Why couldn't they do anything? Had they exchanged

660
00:38:25,431 --> 00:38:29,872
Speaker 2: money in these services? Does that even do anything in

661
00:38:29,911 --> 00:38:33,511
Speaker 2: this instance? Why initially did the police site we can't help.

662
00:38:34,792 --> 00:38:39,992
Speaker 1: I think that our system is accustomed to primarily adjudicating

663
00:38:40,551 --> 00:38:47,192
Speaker 1: financial crimes and violent crimes and Caitlyn doesn't really fall

664
00:38:47,272 --> 00:38:52,232
Speaker 1: under those two categories. You know. What she does is

665
00:38:52,431 --> 00:38:56,552
Speaker 1: almost more akin to kind of like personal betrayal.

666
00:38:56,991 --> 00:38:57,872
Speaker 2: What's manipulation.

667
00:38:58,031 --> 00:39:01,752
Speaker 1: It's emotional, Yeah, it's very emotional, But we don't prosecute

668
00:39:01,872 --> 00:39:05,312
Speaker 1: emotional crimes in our court. You know, that's that's you know,

669
00:39:05,312 --> 00:39:08,071
Speaker 1: otherwise everyone would take their ex boyfriend at court. You know,

670
00:39:08,392 --> 00:39:11,832
Speaker 1: it's just not typically how the system is set up. However,

671
00:39:12,031 --> 00:39:15,991
Speaker 1: having said that, I think that this was also a

672
00:39:16,031 --> 00:39:21,031
Speaker 1: really fundamentally icky case. Like I think people a lot

673
00:39:21,072 --> 00:39:23,671
Speaker 1: of people listen to the details and cringe. A lot

674
00:39:23,712 --> 00:39:27,192
Speaker 1: of these cops that they were talking to, like, my

675
00:39:27,272 --> 00:39:29,551
Speaker 1: guess is, they thought this all sounded pretty gross and

676
00:39:29,632 --> 00:39:32,232
Speaker 1: didn't want to get involved. They thought that this was

677
00:39:32,392 --> 00:39:38,552
Speaker 1: kind of like bullshit between women, and you know that also,

678
00:39:38,672 --> 00:39:41,832
Speaker 1: I think they really underestimated the harm. You know, I

679
00:39:41,872 --> 00:39:43,872
Speaker 1: think they thought, Okay, so this woman lied to about

680
00:39:43,872 --> 00:39:46,991
Speaker 1: being pregnant, what's the big deal. Obviously they had the

681
00:39:46,991 --> 00:39:50,111
Speaker 1: capacity to charge Caitlin, because they ended up charging her,

682
00:39:50,232 --> 00:39:54,472
Speaker 1: and she was charged with multiple counts of harassment, fraud,

683
00:39:54,672 --> 00:39:57,872
Speaker 1: and ultimately indecent acts. She was originally charged with sexual assault,

684
00:39:57,911 --> 00:40:01,232
Speaker 1: which was downgraded and it's not because she took money.

685
00:40:01,431 --> 00:40:05,431
Speaker 1: You know, I've seen all of the court documents. This

686
00:40:05,511 --> 00:40:09,991
Speaker 1: case was not adjudicated because Caitlin stole people's time, and

687
00:40:10,031 --> 00:40:12,511
Speaker 1: time is money and business. That's not what she was

688
00:40:12,551 --> 00:40:15,232
Speaker 1: doing in court. It was because of the manipulation, because

689
00:40:15,272 --> 00:40:17,551
Speaker 1: of the fraud. It was because she kept emailing these

690
00:40:17,592 --> 00:40:20,911
Speaker 1: women with you know, under false pretenses. You know, there

691
00:40:20,951 --> 00:40:24,792
Speaker 1: are tools at the disciple of the justice system, but

692
00:40:25,072 --> 00:40:27,832
Speaker 1: I think police can be reluctant to use them in

693
00:40:27,872 --> 00:40:30,792
Speaker 1: these cases. And I think there's also there are questions,

694
00:40:30,792 --> 00:40:36,112
Speaker 1: of course, about Caitlyn's mental health, and she frankly seems

695
00:40:36,272 --> 00:40:40,392
Speaker 1: quite pathetic, like she really is, like this all seems

696
00:40:40,471 --> 00:40:44,192
Speaker 1: so desperate, and it's sad. I mean, she was arrested,

697
00:40:44,272 --> 00:40:47,031
Speaker 1: and she was she was twenty four years old when

698
00:40:47,031 --> 00:40:50,712
Speaker 1: she was arrested, and you know, and a registered social

699
00:40:50,752 --> 00:40:55,551
Speaker 1: worker and obviously has major mental health challenges. Responsible for

700
00:40:55,592 --> 00:40:59,112
Speaker 1: her actions, but has major mental health challenges. And so

701
00:40:59,312 --> 00:41:03,191
Speaker 1: I think there was some hope that maybe this could

702
00:41:03,192 --> 00:41:07,152
Speaker 1: be dealt with outside of the criminal justice symte. But

703
00:41:07,232 --> 00:41:12,031
Speaker 1: the problem is Caitlyn just wouldn't stop. So what do

704
00:41:12,112 --> 00:41:12,751
Speaker 1: you do with her?

705
00:41:13,551 --> 00:41:19,832
Speaker 2: And I also want to reiterate how how the affected people,

706
00:41:19,911 --> 00:41:22,232
Speaker 2: because we've kind of touched on a few of the stories.

707
00:41:22,272 --> 00:41:27,192
Speaker 2: But there was one dueler in there that Kitelin apparently

708
00:41:27,312 --> 00:41:30,872
Speaker 2: died and she went and got a tattoo and can

709
00:41:30,911 --> 00:41:33,711
Speaker 2: you tell us about the emotional told just how much

710
00:41:33,752 --> 00:41:34,832
Speaker 2: they suffected these women.

711
00:41:35,632 --> 00:41:38,551
Speaker 1: Yeah, it had a huge impact on these women, and

712
00:41:38,592 --> 00:41:42,272
Speaker 1: I think it had both personal and professional repercussions. Like

713
00:41:42,312 --> 00:41:46,352
Speaker 1: I think, on a personal level, it's really hard to

714
00:41:46,431 --> 00:41:49,792
Speaker 1: overstate how devastating it is to have your sense of

715
00:41:49,832 --> 00:41:55,911
Speaker 1: reality destroyed, like to have attempted to help someone, to

716
00:41:55,991 --> 00:41:59,911
Speaker 1: have given them everything you know, your time, your energy,

717
00:42:00,072 --> 00:42:03,192
Speaker 1: all of your compassion over a period of days or longer,

718
00:42:04,232 --> 00:42:07,431
Speaker 1: and then find out that not only does this situation

719
00:42:07,551 --> 00:42:11,792
Speaker 1: not really exist, but this person that they have forced

720
00:42:11,832 --> 00:42:15,272
Speaker 1: you to care about doesn't really exist. I think there's

721
00:42:15,312 --> 00:42:19,792
Speaker 1: something there that really shakes What I think people don't

722
00:42:19,872 --> 00:42:22,872
Speaker 1: understand is a fairly fragile social trust, the idea that

723
00:42:22,872 --> 00:42:25,352
Speaker 1: we can leave people when they when they tell us,

724
00:42:25,352 --> 00:42:28,232
Speaker 1: and particularly when they tell us they need help. It's

725
00:42:28,272 --> 00:42:32,192
Speaker 1: really devastating. I think there's also I think that a

726
00:42:32,192 --> 00:42:37,111
Speaker 1: lot of the Dulas have struggled with Caitlin's treatment of

727
00:42:37,152 --> 00:42:39,792
Speaker 1: them as some sort of means to an emotional end.

728
00:42:40,152 --> 00:42:44,471
Speaker 1: You know that there were sort of no, we're functionally

729
00:42:44,511 --> 00:42:48,071
Speaker 1: dehumanized by her, you know, treated like tools for her

730
00:42:48,112 --> 00:42:51,352
Speaker 1: own gratification. That's really really hard for a lot of

731
00:42:51,352 --> 00:42:54,471
Speaker 1: these dulas who really pride themselves in their work and

732
00:42:54,511 --> 00:42:57,832
Speaker 1: their selflessness and their commitment to women who need them.

733
00:42:58,712 --> 00:43:01,832
Speaker 1: And I think it's it's a bit hard for them

734
00:43:01,951 --> 00:43:03,192
Speaker 1: to get back on track with that.

735
00:43:03,872 --> 00:43:07,071
Speaker 2: Did it follow some of them to live the profession?

736
00:43:08,551 --> 00:43:14,632
Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone has left permanently who wasn't

737
00:43:14,632 --> 00:43:19,432
Speaker 1: already considering leaving, Like Katie, who was involved with Amy

738
00:43:19,592 --> 00:43:22,151
Speaker 1: in that first story we discussed, shed already had kind

739
00:43:22,152 --> 00:43:24,952
Speaker 1: of one foot at the door. She works as a photographer.

740
00:43:24,991 --> 00:43:28,152
Speaker 1: You know, I think Caitlyn was probably a final push.

741
00:43:28,792 --> 00:43:30,832
Speaker 1: I know a lot of doulas have changed the way

742
00:43:30,832 --> 00:43:35,392
Speaker 1: they practice. Doulas have reported to me like a sense

743
00:43:35,431 --> 00:43:38,431
Speaker 1: of panic with patients or with clients who have reported

744
00:43:38,752 --> 00:43:41,392
Speaker 1: similar narratives to Caitlin's, where they just kind of shut

745
00:43:41,431 --> 00:43:42,272
Speaker 1: down and.

746
00:43:43,152 --> 00:43:47,271
Speaker 2: Breaking because people who have actually been through that need

747
00:43:47,392 --> 00:43:49,312
Speaker 2: someone trust them one hundred percent.

748
00:43:50,312 --> 00:43:55,991
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, And now that trust is shattered, and yeah,

749
00:43:55,991 --> 00:43:59,191
Speaker 1: it's created this kind of suspicion and self doubt that's

750
00:43:59,232 --> 00:44:00,711
Speaker 1: not for anyone.

751
00:44:02,112 --> 00:44:04,471
Speaker 2: After the break, we find out what the courts made

752
00:44:04,551 --> 00:44:07,071
Speaker 2: of this case and if any just has been brought

753
00:44:07,072 --> 00:44:12,632
Speaker 2: to the victims. So let's get to the court proceedings.

754
00:44:12,632 --> 00:44:16,191
Speaker 2: She's arrested early twenty twenty three on multiple charges, as

755
00:44:16,232 --> 00:44:19,511
Speaker 2: you mentioned, by early twenty twenty four, and she's been

756
00:44:19,551 --> 00:44:22,832
Speaker 2: in prison all this time, so about ten ish months

757
00:44:23,431 --> 00:44:29,031
Speaker 2: she's facing sentencing. She's pled guilty. We've talked a little

758
00:44:29,031 --> 00:44:32,911
Speaker 2: bit about mental health, but was it properly examined during

759
00:44:32,911 --> 00:44:37,111
Speaker 2: that process? What was said about potentially factitious disorder which

760
00:44:37,152 --> 00:44:39,312
Speaker 2: you mentioned at the top. What are we dealing with here?

761
00:44:42,832 --> 00:44:44,792
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, what are we dealing with here? I

762
00:44:44,792 --> 00:44:50,511
Speaker 1: mean that's hard to say. You know, Caitlin has a

763
00:44:50,592 --> 00:44:54,951
Speaker 1: litany of diagnoses, and you know, when the crime attorney

764
00:44:54,951 --> 00:44:57,712
Speaker 1: at the prosecutor was reading some of the facts to

765
00:44:57,752 --> 00:45:00,352
Speaker 1: the record, I think he said that Kaitlin had like

766
00:45:00,672 --> 00:45:03,032
Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty one hundred and eighty court visits

767
00:45:03,031 --> 00:45:05,471
Speaker 1: over a very short period of time. You know, she

768
00:45:05,632 --> 00:45:08,272
Speaker 1: just kept going going back to the hospital and for

769
00:45:08,392 --> 00:45:12,392
Speaker 1: things like you know, I mean, for a tempting suicide,

770
00:45:12,551 --> 00:45:16,111
Speaker 1: but also things like swallowing batteries and you know, just

771
00:45:16,232 --> 00:45:19,632
Speaker 1: a whole litany of things she was looking for attention

772
00:45:19,792 --> 00:45:24,432
Speaker 1: for and that she was struggling with. So it's really

773
00:45:24,471 --> 00:45:28,352
Speaker 1: really hard to nail down exactly what you're looking at

774
00:45:28,632 --> 00:45:34,352
Speaker 1: in terms of somebody's physical and psychological health when their

775
00:45:34,471 --> 00:45:37,751
Speaker 1: whole thing is lying about that, you know. I mean,

776
00:45:37,792 --> 00:45:41,832
Speaker 1: she had a court order assessment which rejected a diagnosis

777
00:45:41,832 --> 00:45:43,951
Speaker 1: of factitious disorder, which didn't make a ton of sense

778
00:45:43,991 --> 00:45:45,712
Speaker 1: to me and doesn't make a ton of sense to

779
00:45:45,752 --> 00:45:47,792
Speaker 1: experts that I've spoken to, but they haven't examined her,

780
00:45:47,951 --> 00:45:51,672
Speaker 1: nor have I. And factitious disorders you know, when women

781
00:45:51,712 --> 00:45:55,232
Speaker 1: fabricate illnesses and crises for attention, which seems to very

782
00:45:55,272 --> 00:45:59,431
Speaker 1: much fit what Haitlan does. They said she had orderline

783
00:45:59,431 --> 00:46:04,832
Speaker 1: personality disorder. She's also been diagnosed with depressive disorders, anxiety disorders.

784
00:46:05,752 --> 00:46:10,232
Speaker 1: I mean, is that actually The thing about Caitlin's discussion,

785
00:46:10,832 --> 00:46:14,552
Speaker 1: the discussion of Caitlyn's health in court is it's incredibly sad.

786
00:46:14,592 --> 00:46:17,111
Speaker 1: But it's incredibly sad in two ways. One, you look

787
00:46:17,112 --> 00:46:22,312
Speaker 1: at this unbelievable volume of paperwork all of the diagnoses

788
00:46:22,352 --> 00:46:24,591
Speaker 1: for this. You know, at the time she was I

789
00:46:24,632 --> 00:46:27,271
Speaker 1: think when we were discussing this, incredibly she was twenty six,

790
00:46:28,112 --> 00:46:33,591
Speaker 1: and that is incredibly sad. But it's additionally sad that

791
00:46:34,392 --> 00:46:38,272
Speaker 1: so much of this is likely fabricated. She's a completely

792
00:46:38,392 --> 00:46:43,711
Speaker 1: unreliable source. She gets off on being ill. So how

793
00:46:43,752 --> 00:46:46,911
Speaker 1: on earth do you actually adjudicate any of this? Where

794
00:46:46,911 --> 00:46:49,832
Speaker 1: do you land in terms of an assessment of how

795
00:46:49,872 --> 00:46:52,951
Speaker 1: healthy she is, or what her diagnoses are, or what

796
00:46:53,031 --> 00:46:53,632
Speaker 1: she needs?

797
00:46:53,951 --> 00:46:56,511
Speaker 2: What was she like? What was Kitelin lock? In the courtroom?

798
00:46:57,152 --> 00:47:00,992
Speaker 1: She was appeared to be very remorseful. I just remember

799
00:47:01,072 --> 00:47:05,112
Speaker 1: she was wearing this very thick burgundy sweater roll next sweater.

800
00:47:05,192 --> 00:47:08,431
Speaker 1: Made almost no eye contact with the gallery or with

801
00:47:08,511 --> 00:47:11,431
Speaker 1: anyone really, in particular, when the duelas were reading their

802
00:47:11,551 --> 00:47:14,271
Speaker 1: victim impact statements, a number of them cried, a number

803
00:47:14,272 --> 00:47:17,951
Speaker 1: of them were angry. She just looked down at the

804
00:47:17,951 --> 00:47:22,191
Speaker 1: ground and she just gradually because it took almost two

805
00:47:22,272 --> 00:47:24,231
Speaker 1: hours for all of the duelas to read their victim

806
00:47:24,232 --> 00:47:26,431
Speaker 1: impact statements into the record, and as she looked at

807
00:47:26,471 --> 00:47:31,151
Speaker 1: the ground, her head just slumped deeper and deeper and

808
00:47:31,232 --> 00:47:34,551
Speaker 1: deeper until I could just barely make it like the

809
00:47:34,551 --> 00:47:37,711
Speaker 1: ponytail on the top of her head. And she read

810
00:47:37,752 --> 00:47:39,752
Speaker 1: a statement where she said that you know, she had

811
00:47:39,792 --> 00:47:41,911
Speaker 1: learned and she was very remorseful and she didn't want

812
00:47:41,911 --> 00:47:44,432
Speaker 1: to do this again, and she understands that she hurt people.

813
00:47:44,991 --> 00:47:49,071
Speaker 1: And you know, she said, for the things that I

814
00:47:49,272 --> 00:47:52,792
Speaker 1: might say in that situation if one was remorseful.

815
00:47:52,511 --> 00:47:54,472
Speaker 2: What was the sentence? What did she end up getting?

816
00:47:55,272 --> 00:47:59,672
Speaker 1: The prosecutor this defense attorney agreed on a joint submission,

817
00:47:59,712 --> 00:48:02,592
Speaker 1: so they basically had come to a consensus position before

818
00:48:02,592 --> 00:48:06,591
Speaker 1: presenting it to the judge. It's very unorthodox in those

819
00:48:06,592 --> 00:48:10,511
Speaker 1: circumstances here, according to judicial precedent, for a judge to

820
00:48:10,872 --> 00:48:14,272
Speaker 1: reject that, you know, if the Crown and defence have agreed,

821
00:48:15,031 --> 00:48:19,112
Speaker 1: unless there's some reason in law that he can't accept it,

822
00:48:19,431 --> 00:48:23,792
Speaker 1: he functionally rubber stamps it. In this case, the judge.

823
00:48:23,991 --> 00:48:26,111
Speaker 1: So we actually, you know, I remember going in there

824
00:48:26,112 --> 00:48:28,192
Speaker 1: with a producer and we knew that there was a

825
00:48:28,272 --> 00:48:30,832
Speaker 1: joint submission, and you know, we went in for you know,

826
00:48:30,872 --> 00:48:33,631
Speaker 1: I think court started around nine thirty or ten, and

827
00:48:33,672 --> 00:48:35,591
Speaker 1: we were like, this is great, we'll be out in

828
00:48:35,752 --> 00:48:37,951
Speaker 1: like even with the other cases they had that morning,

829
00:48:37,991 --> 00:48:39,792
Speaker 1: they would probably try to get through before Caitlin's We

830
00:48:39,792 --> 00:48:41,111
Speaker 1: were like, we're going to be out in an hour

831
00:48:41,232 --> 00:48:43,192
Speaker 1: or two. We'll go to the tie place down the street,

832
00:48:43,312 --> 00:48:47,751
Speaker 1: Like no problem. We were still in court like six

833
00:48:47,792 --> 00:48:53,111
Speaker 1: hours later because the judge looked at what was being presented,

834
00:48:53,392 --> 00:48:56,471
Speaker 1: which was the suggestion that she would be in she

835
00:48:56,511 --> 00:49:00,312
Speaker 1: would receive a conditional sentence, which is like house arrest basically,

836
00:49:00,712 --> 00:49:02,911
Speaker 1: so she would be back at home with her mother,

837
00:49:03,792 --> 00:49:07,471
Speaker 1: And the judge said, this woman is an incredibly high

838
00:49:07,592 --> 00:49:10,312
Speaker 1: risk to reoffend, Like I have all the reports here

839
00:49:10,352 --> 00:49:13,151
Speaker 1: that say she's going to do this again. You know,

840
00:49:13,232 --> 00:49:16,152
Speaker 1: we're proposing therapy for her, or at least the Crown

841
00:49:16,312 --> 00:49:18,792
Speaker 1: and Defense we're proposing therapy for her, but it's like

842
00:49:19,712 --> 00:49:24,631
Speaker 1: really specific, specialized, expensive therapy, Like can she get this

843
00:49:24,752 --> 00:49:28,312
Speaker 1: in her small town? Like who who offers this therapy?

844
00:49:28,431 --> 00:49:32,031
Speaker 1: Is she on the wait list? You know? So it

845
00:49:32,112 --> 00:49:35,192
Speaker 1: became like a whole question of it was it was

846
00:49:35,192 --> 00:49:39,631
Speaker 1: sort of an interesting debate that had not transpired to

847
00:49:39,712 --> 00:49:43,111
Speaker 1: that point about what the real the real threat of

848
00:49:43,152 --> 00:49:47,631
Speaker 1: releasing Caitlin, how likely she was to reoffend, whether you know,

849
00:49:47,712 --> 00:49:51,792
Speaker 1: there needed to be a more serious consideration of the

850
00:49:51,832 --> 00:49:55,352
Speaker 1: public safety issues in this case. And then also what

851
00:49:55,511 --> 00:49:57,632
Speaker 1: do you do with her? Like what kind of therapy

852
00:49:57,672 --> 00:50:00,151
Speaker 1: does she need? Will she benefit from that therapy? Like

853
00:50:00,192 --> 00:50:01,991
Speaker 1: can't she get that therapy? Is you know, we have

854
00:50:01,991 --> 00:50:04,352
Speaker 1: a public system here her she doesn't come from a

855
00:50:04,392 --> 00:50:06,312
Speaker 1: super affluent family. Will she be on a weight lift

856
00:50:06,551 --> 00:50:09,511
Speaker 1: for a year, and what happens until then? And will

857
00:50:09,511 --> 00:50:12,232
Speaker 1: the therapy even work? And these are sort of questions

858
00:50:12,312 --> 00:50:17,072
Speaker 1: that hadn't really been considered. And so we sat there

859
00:50:17,471 --> 00:50:21,471
Speaker 1: as this like fascinating debate ensued about what exactly to

860
00:50:21,471 --> 00:50:24,511
Speaker 1: do with this woman, and the sentencing hearing was a

861
00:50:24,592 --> 00:50:26,431
Speaker 1: during that day with no resolution, and we ended up

862
00:50:26,471 --> 00:50:29,471
Speaker 1: back a month later to hear the decision.

863
00:50:29,991 --> 00:50:35,392
Speaker 2: The judge ultimately agreed with the sentence because he had

864
00:50:35,431 --> 00:50:37,312
Speaker 2: no other tribe. The hands were kind of tied. There

865
00:50:37,312 --> 00:50:41,112
Speaker 2: was no other choice. But everything he says is so valid. Yeah,

866
00:50:41,312 --> 00:50:43,792
Speaker 2: that's right, because she did reoffend, didn't she She was

867
00:50:43,911 --> 00:50:46,232
Speaker 2: let out on house arrest, she was, and she did

868
00:50:46,272 --> 00:50:46,631
Speaker 2: it again.

869
00:50:47,152 --> 00:50:50,672
Speaker 1: She was let out on has arrest in welsh on

870
00:50:50,712 --> 00:50:52,951
Speaker 1: February fourteenth, and by the end of April she was

871
00:50:52,991 --> 00:50:54,232
Speaker 1: back in jail.

872
00:50:54,431 --> 00:50:56,671
Speaker 2: Yeah, and how many victims did she have in that time?

873
00:50:56,712 --> 00:51:00,832
Speaker 2: Do we know that we know of two. So as

874
00:51:00,911 --> 00:51:04,872
Speaker 2: of now we're recording this April twenty twenty five, is

875
00:51:04,911 --> 00:51:05,712
Speaker 2: she still in prison.

876
00:51:06,431 --> 00:51:09,471
Speaker 1: She is, so she has now been sentenced on those

877
00:51:09,551 --> 00:51:13,312
Speaker 1: new charges. So and this time, you know, it's customary

878
00:51:13,312 --> 00:51:17,152
Speaker 1: in Canada that typically are a believer eligible for parole

879
00:51:17,232 --> 00:51:19,552
Speaker 1: at just serving a third of your sentence, you're eligible

880
00:51:19,551 --> 00:51:23,471
Speaker 1: for early release. I don't think that will happen in

881
00:51:23,511 --> 00:51:25,951
Speaker 1: this case, because she's already proven that she'll breach the

882
00:51:26,031 --> 00:51:28,112
Speaker 1: terms of per release, as she did with her conditional

883
00:51:28,152 --> 00:51:30,912
Speaker 1: sentence when she reoffended when she was on has arrest.

884
00:51:31,551 --> 00:51:35,512
Speaker 1: So Caitlin will be sitting in jail, in prison for

885
00:51:35,991 --> 00:51:38,792
Speaker 1: almost three years. You know, she'll be released at the

886
00:51:38,872 --> 00:51:41,352
Speaker 1: end of twenty twenty seven or early twenty twenty eight.

887
00:51:41,632 --> 00:51:45,551
Speaker 2: But we've got no kind of guarantee that that's going

888
00:51:45,592 --> 00:51:49,072
Speaker 2: to actually do anything. She could just sit in prison

889
00:51:49,112 --> 00:51:51,272
Speaker 2: for three years and get out and do this again,

890
00:51:51,352 --> 00:51:54,832
Speaker 2: or potentially you know, go to a different column that

891
00:51:54,832 --> 00:51:58,312
Speaker 2: doesn't involve Duela's. Yeah, like how do you rehabilitate someone

892
00:51:58,392 --> 00:51:58,631
Speaker 2: like this?

893
00:51:59,911 --> 00:52:02,911
Speaker 1: That's one of the core questions here, Like how do

894
00:52:02,991 --> 00:52:06,111
Speaker 1: you rehabilitate someone. How do you make someone well who

895
00:52:06,312 --> 00:52:11,591
Speaker 1: desperately wants to be sick. It's an incredibly challenging thing.

896
00:52:11,832 --> 00:52:15,392
Speaker 1: And you know, I have no doubt she's not getting

897
00:52:16,352 --> 00:52:20,951
Speaker 1: particularly sophisticated mental health care in prison, but you know,

898
00:52:21,192 --> 00:52:25,471
Speaker 1: she also presents a quandary to treatment. So I mean,

899
00:52:25,511 --> 00:52:28,512
Speaker 1: I think I'll be very curious to see what Caitlin

900
00:52:28,592 --> 00:52:31,031
Speaker 1: does when she's released. And I would actually be very

901
00:52:31,031 --> 00:52:34,511
Speaker 1: curious to know what she's up to in prison, because

902
00:52:34,792 --> 00:52:38,632
Speaker 1: she's got to be doing something to meet those emotional needs,

903
00:52:38,792 --> 00:52:40,752
Speaker 1: and I would love to know what it is.

904
00:52:41,592 --> 00:52:44,071
Speaker 2: How common is something like this, because it feels like

905
00:52:44,192 --> 00:52:49,672
Speaker 2: such a unusual crime to be talking about. Is it

906
00:52:49,712 --> 00:52:51,591
Speaker 2: more common than we think? I mean, we do have

907
00:52:51,632 --> 00:52:54,632
Speaker 2: something called factitious disorder, which means there are multiple people

908
00:52:54,632 --> 00:52:57,911
Speaker 2: that fall into that category. Is it more common?

909
00:52:58,272 --> 00:53:00,751
Speaker 1: It's in the DSM. It's a thing, you know, it's

910
00:53:00,991 --> 00:53:03,872
Speaker 1: I mean doctor Mark Feldman, who interviewed the podcasts and

911
00:53:03,911 --> 00:53:06,151
Speaker 1: who I've spoken to from multiple stories and have been

912
00:53:06,312 --> 00:53:08,591
Speaker 1: contact with for about a decade. You know, he's one

913
00:53:08,592 --> 00:53:12,111
Speaker 1: of the world's foremost experts on tacticious disorders, and he

914
00:53:12,232 --> 00:53:14,832
Speaker 1: likes to say that it's not common, but it's less

915
00:53:14,911 --> 00:53:17,672
Speaker 1: rare than we think, And I think that's really a

916
00:53:17,672 --> 00:53:19,392
Speaker 1: good way to look at it. And what's interesting is,

917
00:53:20,031 --> 00:53:24,431
Speaker 1: like I hear all the time about people who are

918
00:53:24,991 --> 00:53:28,832
Speaker 1: either suspected or or who have been busted for like

919
00:53:29,511 --> 00:53:32,951
Speaker 1: faking a little cancer, you know, like it's not nearly

920
00:53:33,112 --> 00:53:36,552
Speaker 1: the scale of what Caitlyn did. Caitlyn is absolutely an outlier.

921
00:53:36,951 --> 00:53:39,951
Speaker 1: Like her behavior is very unusual, and the fact that

922
00:53:39,991 --> 00:53:42,752
Speaker 1: she was that prolific at such an early age very

923
00:53:42,832 --> 00:53:45,792
Speaker 1: very unusual. Have never heard another case quite like that.

924
00:53:46,672 --> 00:53:48,712
Speaker 1: But you know, I think a lot of us we

925
00:53:49,272 --> 00:53:52,431
Speaker 1: don't do this, but we do. What we do understand

926
00:53:52,632 --> 00:53:57,552
Speaker 1: is the power of illness and desperation and crisis in

927
00:53:58,431 --> 00:54:01,671
Speaker 1: forcing reactions and other people. You know, it's a way

928
00:54:01,712 --> 00:54:04,672
Speaker 1: to where it buys us out of responsibility, it buys

929
00:54:04,752 --> 00:54:08,591
Speaker 1: us goodwill, and you know, in times when you genuinely

930
00:54:08,632 --> 00:54:11,752
Speaker 1: need that, that's very important. But when you fake it

931
00:54:11,832 --> 00:54:16,352
Speaker 1: and weaponize it, then it's a really harmful manipulation.

932
00:54:16,951 --> 00:54:20,551
Speaker 2: What are you hoping that people get from hearing this

933
00:54:20,752 --> 00:54:28,151
Speaker 2: story in detail, particularly in helping people understand how I'm

934
00:54:28,152 --> 00:54:31,591
Speaker 2: going to use quotations, but nonviolent crimes like this, this

935
00:54:31,752 --> 00:54:37,792
Speaker 2: emotional kind of manipulation have an effect on victims.

936
00:54:38,911 --> 00:54:41,232
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I hope when people listen to this

937
00:54:41,471 --> 00:54:44,911
Speaker 1: they hear the complications in the story. Like I think,

938
00:54:44,951 --> 00:54:47,991
Speaker 1: on its face, of course, it's like a super salacious,

939
00:54:48,312 --> 00:54:51,632
Speaker 1: outrageous story. It is also full of questions about the

940
00:54:51,712 --> 00:54:53,951
Speaker 1: nature of harm and how we judicate things in the

941
00:54:53,951 --> 00:54:56,632
Speaker 1: criminal justice system, and what it needs to be responsible

942
00:54:56,632 --> 00:54:59,631
Speaker 1: for your actions, and the context of mental illness. I

943
00:54:59,632 --> 00:55:03,592
Speaker 1: think it's very interesting these relationships where somebody like Caitlin

944
00:55:03,832 --> 00:55:08,312
Speaker 1: manipulates somebody but also make makes them feel amazing about

945
00:55:08,752 --> 00:55:12,512
Speaker 1: how they're able to provide these things to someone in need.

946
00:55:12,951 --> 00:55:15,792
Speaker 1: And I think that's a really complicated relationship. And I

947
00:55:15,792 --> 00:55:20,792
Speaker 1: think it's something, you know, one of our interviewees described

948
00:55:20,832 --> 00:55:24,431
Speaker 1: it as betrayal trauma, where you know, you think you're

949
00:55:24,431 --> 00:55:26,392
Speaker 1: helping someone and then you find out it was actually

950
00:55:26,392 --> 00:55:29,031
Speaker 1: in service to a lie. You know, it's a that's

951
00:55:29,072 --> 00:55:32,592
Speaker 1: a really complicated relationship, and I think a much more

952
00:55:32,792 --> 00:55:34,592
Speaker 1: intimate form of harm.

953
00:55:35,192 --> 00:55:37,991
Speaker 2: Do you think that our courts, I'm saying our in

954
00:55:37,991 --> 00:55:40,352
Speaker 2: different countries, but all courts need to.

955
00:55:42,232 --> 00:55:42,832
Speaker 1: Do more.

956
00:55:43,511 --> 00:55:46,232
Speaker 2: I mean here in Australia, for instance, we've recently had

957
00:55:46,312 --> 00:55:49,631
Speaker 2: coercive control being brought into our legislation and things like

958
00:55:49,672 --> 00:55:55,312
Speaker 2: that that are those more emotional kind of manipulations. Do

959
00:55:55,352 --> 00:55:57,232
Speaker 2: we need to be thinking more in this space and

960
00:55:57,232 --> 00:55:58,312
Speaker 2: our justice systems?

961
00:55:59,632 --> 00:56:01,911
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't really know whether more in these

962
00:56:01,911 --> 00:56:04,071
Speaker 1: cases should be adjudicated in the criminal justice system. But

963
00:56:04,112 --> 00:56:06,792
Speaker 1: then I don't know what our alternative is someone like

964
00:56:06,872 --> 00:56:09,911
Speaker 1: Caitlin who walks up. You know, I think there are

965
00:56:09,991 --> 00:56:14,792
Speaker 1: absolutely people who require resources and patients and assistance to

966
00:56:14,872 --> 00:56:21,231
Speaker 1: overcome really, really terrible behavior. And what do we do

967
00:56:21,352 --> 00:56:24,672
Speaker 1: with somebody who's not genuinely sorry and will not commit

968
00:56:25,551 --> 00:56:27,712
Speaker 1: to ceasing harm. I don't know how we deal with

969
00:56:27,752 --> 00:56:34,071
Speaker 1: that outside of the criminal justice system.

970
00:56:34,112 --> 00:56:36,552
Speaker 2: Thanks to Sarah for helping us to tell this story.

971
00:56:36,991 --> 00:56:40,551
Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations is a podcast hosted and produced by me,

972
00:56:40,832 --> 00:56:44,711
Speaker 2: Jimma baff and Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by Jacob Brown.

973
00:56:45,112 --> 00:56:47,551
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week

974
00:56:47,672 --> 00:56:49,392
Speaker 2: with another True Crime Conversation.