Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mom and mea podcast.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Mama out Loud. What women are actually talking
Speaker 2: about on Monday, the tenth of November. I am Jesse Stevens,
Speaker 2: I am Amelia Lester, I'm Claire Murphy. And I don't
Speaker 2: know if you know this, guys, but there's this actress
Speaker 2: who's been really doing a great job on not a
Speaker 2: great job at all acasm called Kim Kardashian. You might
Speaker 2: be across her.
Speaker 1: She's not been doing so well this week. She'd have
Speaker 1: it a bit of a rough time. I think she
Speaker 1: might have just hit failure era. And so I would
Speaker 1: like to just have a moment with you all to
Speaker 1: discuss how a multi up presuming she's a billionaire now
Speaker 1: multimillion billionaire, whatever she is, woman who has a thousand
Speaker 1: businesses is now failing?
Speaker 3: Can you be friends with people who believe very different
Speaker 3: things from you?
Speaker 1: Politically?
Speaker 3: I want to talk about Jennifer Lawrence's answer to that question.
Speaker 2: And did women ruin the workplace? Allegedly they did? I
Speaker 2: knew that we've done, say exactly exactly, in which case
Speaker 2: my question is can we all go home now?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I was feeling guilty at three am the other morning.
Speaker 1: That must have been in first of though. Friends. In
Speaker 1: case you missed it, the VIC government announced their big
Speaker 1: Women's pain report from their inquiry yesterday. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you heard. They announced this pilot initiative to give
Speaker 1: women getting their IUDs inserted the green whistle. And first
Speaker 1: of all, we need to establish who here has had
Speaker 1: a green whistle experience. Jesse Emelia, I don't know what
Speaker 1: that is.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I'm obsessed with green whistles because I desperately.
Speaker 1: Do you have one? When you broke you? Let no.
Speaker 2: I was at the top of a mountain and there
Speaker 2: was a little like lock box where they keep the
Speaker 2: green whistle, and when they looked in there, it hadn't
Speaker 2: been replaced from last time. And in fact, in the
Speaker 2: whole town there was no green whistle. It just didn't exist.
Speaker 2: And so I thought about that green whistle for about
Speaker 2: eight straight hours.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me tell you it was the only
Speaker 1: one in the room who's had a green whil experience.
Speaker 1: That it is one of those things. I don't know
Speaker 1: what drug it is, actually, but it's something that's given
Speaker 1: to you in the moment. We have had like an
Speaker 1: extreme pain incident broke your leg. For me, it was
Speaker 1: I snapped my cruci at tendon. It's so that say,
Speaker 1: paramedics can help you deal with the pain whilst they
Speaker 1: transfer you to hospital. So it's short acting, it's very effective,
Speaker 1: so it kicks in really quickly, and I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if it's actually helping with the pain or just your
Speaker 1: brain is now having super super fun and is distracted
Speaker 1: and doesn't care about the pain anymore. Because I went
Speaker 1: from like howling and crying to being like, oh, that's
Speaker 1: a pretty cartoon on the ceiling of the cubicle that
Speaker 1: they landed me in at the hospital. So it's really
Speaker 1: short acting and very effective.
Speaker 3: So it's like a preloaded it's got drugs in a whistle.
Speaker 2: And you just kind of like breathe it in. And
Speaker 2: so it's always like sideline of kids sports, that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. And I thought when I read this headline,
Speaker 2: I was like, this is genius, because I've interviewed women
Speaker 2: in the past who have said that they got NIUD
Speaker 2: inserted and it was turn out of ten pain. They
Speaker 2: fainted on the train on the way home. Others say
Speaker 2: it was absolutely fine. But the fact that that hasn't
Speaker 2: been part of the process or something that you're off it.
Speaker 2: I've even thought it with I remember the most painful
Speaker 2: part of my labor was the stretcher sweep thing that
Speaker 2: they did, and I was like, can I have a
Speaker 2: green whistle for that? Maybe not, I don't know. It
Speaker 2: might not be good for the baby. But the fact
Speaker 2: that pain relief isn't at the forefront of the practitioner's
Speaker 2: mind when you are going inside someone to a very
Speaker 2: tender area. I think this is very exciting progress.
Speaker 1: Have either of you watched a single episode of All's
Speaker 1: Fair yet?
Speaker 3: Nope?
Speaker 2: No, I have not, But I must say I'm finding
Speaker 2: the reviews very tantalizing. And the more I read, the
Speaker 2: more zero stars I see, the more I'm leaning.
Speaker 1: Oh, guys, you're in for a treat. It is obviously
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian's lady feature into acting. She's done a few
Speaker 1: gigs before, but this is her latest. It is not
Speaker 1: getting the reviews that we'd perhaps thought when this idea
Speaker 1: was being formed. But maybe it's a little more strategic
Speaker 1: than we thought. But Kim's flop era, we believe may
Speaker 1: have just arrived because she's not just failing where it
Speaker 1: comes to this particular venture. She's also failed in her
Speaker 1: legal career this week as well, so we think maybe
Speaker 1: she's starting to learn a few lessons on this new
Speaker 1: pathway to failure. I am a great connoisseur of terrible things.
Speaker 1: So if someone tells me that something has a bad review,
Speaker 1: I will often like it. And I think it's because
Speaker 1: I have very low brow taste buds, Like I just
Speaker 1: go into these things purely for entertainment value. And so
Speaker 1: this if you are not across All's fair. This is
Speaker 1: the new Ryan Murphy drama. It's about a women only
Speaker 1: divorce lawyers firm, which stars Kim Kardashian, Naomi Watts, Nissi Nash.
Speaker 1: They're like your core three divorce lawyers who've come from
Speaker 1: like this past of you know, middle aged white man
Speaker 1: law firms where they're overlooked and undervalued, and so they
Speaker 1: come out as these powerful women and they drop these
Speaker 1: one liners which are awful, and they deal with cheating
Speaker 1: husbands and controlling men, and like they get the best
Speaker 1: for these women their clients that have you know, been
Speaker 1: very poorly treated. And I can tell you now I'm
Speaker 1: three episodes in the acting is like beyond terrible. I
Speaker 1: don't know.
Speaker 3: Why Naomi Watts and Sarah Paulson, who's also in it
Speaker 3: and has kind of write like Ryan Murphy's News, and
Speaker 3: Glenn Close.
Speaker 1: How can the oh my god, Glenn Close?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: How can these people be acting badly? They're very good actors.
Speaker 1: It has got to be in the writing. And I
Speaker 1: was trying to find it. Who was in the writer's
Speaker 1: room for this, And as far as I can tell,
Speaker 1: there's not a single woman on the writing style so
Speaker 1: interesting take. I mean, if there is and I've missed it,
Speaker 1: I apologized, But as far as I can tell, there
Speaker 1: was not many women writing this, And so the way
Speaker 1: in which these women have come together, like the friendship
Speaker 1: that's supposed to be like the all encompassing part of
Speaker 1: the backstory of them, feels very forced and uncomfortable. They're
Speaker 1: delivering these one liners like they should have impact, but
Speaker 1: they just seem kind of funny. But the big part
Speaker 1: of it, I think is just it is bougie and classless,
Speaker 1: and there is designer threads and loads of bling and
Speaker 1: it just taps into that part of my brain that
Speaker 1: just loves and it's like going on a roller coaster
Speaker 1: at you know movie world, like you know it's going
Speaker 1: to be awful, bit at the same time, like you're
Speaker 1: adrenaline is pumping and you really love it. Like that's
Speaker 1: all I can say is keeping me coming back because
Speaker 1: the flash in the Glitz is everything.
Speaker 2: What I can't work out is that Kim Kardashian is
Speaker 2: known for her blankness right like, even she is expressionless.
Speaker 2: Her face doesn't really move, she doesn't have any pause,
Speaker 2: she doesn't emote at all. So the pivot into acting
Speaker 2: is a very interesting one for me. But I wanted
Speaker 2: to ask you, Claire. I read this incredible review in
Speaker 2: The Atlantic, and I want to read you a line
Speaker 2: and then I want you to tell me if this
Speaker 2: was your experience of watching it, because I think that
Speaker 2: this also might signify a broad a cultural shift towards
Speaker 2: a very dire place. The author, who is Sophie Gilbert, wrote,
Speaker 2: I can't call it a television show because it isn't one. Rather,
Speaker 2: it's Instagram reels. At episode length, forty five minute collections
Speaker 2: of bedazzled moving images targeted at the idly scrolling second
Speaker 2: screen viewer seems pass quickly, as if to emulate the
Speaker 2: true feed experience. If you're not already on your phone,
Speaker 2: you may as well be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems pretty accurate, to be honest.
Speaker 3: I did see one still from it which was Kim
Speaker 3: wearing a sort of tweed skirt with a believe it's
Speaker 3: called a whale tail, a visible G string poking.
Speaker 1: Out the back.
Speaker 3: I mean, look, I'm not a lawyer, but is that
Speaker 3: to actually wear that to court?
Speaker 1: This show, well, let me just prefers. I'm three episodes
Speaker 1: in and they have yet to go to court. This
Speaker 1: is all boardroom experiences at this point. So this is
Speaker 1: like husband and wife sitting down across the table, very combative,
Speaker 1: like they often come in with a bunch of men
Speaker 1: and they sit down and they say things like oh,
Speaker 1: all the ladies together, like that kind of vibe, and
Speaker 1: then the ladies are like and we are going to
Speaker 1: destroy you, and you're like, yes, girl, go get them.
Speaker 1: And then they deliver these like terrible lines and you're
Speaker 1: like cool, you still want like are really happy for
Speaker 1: your client, but like these storylines are wrapped up in milliseconds.
Speaker 1: You barely get to know the clients. Like Jessica Simpson
Speaker 1: is a client and her role is like exceptional, like exceptional.
Speaker 3: What do you mean by exceptional like she's a great actor.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, nothing to do with her acting experience.
Speaker 1: It is the fact that they brought her in to
Speaker 1: play the character that they have and it kind of
Speaker 1: plays very much into her real life plastic surgery experiences.
Speaker 1: It's just great. And also Glenn Close, like, you cannot
Speaker 1: fault this woman. She's incredible. And she delivers a line
Speaker 1: to Sarah Paulson's character where she says, like the world
Speaker 1: would be so much happier if your mother just swallowed
Speaker 1: And that coming out of Len Close's mouth is like, whoa,
Speaker 1: it's camp and it's terrible, Like it's just awful, awful, terrible.
Speaker 1: But this is from Kim Kardashian American Horror Story because
Speaker 1: she got Rave reviews for that, all right.
Speaker 2: Because I have two theories as to why this has happened,
Speaker 2: because I don't believe in twenty twenty five we are accidentally,
Speaker 2: especially with Ryan Murphy who created Glee, like he is
Speaker 2: a very incredible creator who knows what he's doing, I
Speaker 2: don't believe that this happened by accident. Right, So the
Speaker 2: first theory is one I've seen going around on substack,
Speaker 2: which is Basically, the zero percent rating on Rotten Tomatoes
Speaker 2: is a plant, and it's there on purpose because there
Speaker 2: is nothing that makes you want to watch a show
Speaker 2: more than the thought is it really that bad? Like
Speaker 2: I want to go and prove for myself that this
Speaker 2: is the worst show ever, And that's been part of
Speaker 2: the attraction, and early indications suggests that people are flocking.
Speaker 2: The second thing is that there are seventeen executive producers
Speaker 2: on this show. They're used to it's wild, right, including
Speaker 2: pretty much all of the actors. So you've got what's
Speaker 2: is one? I think Kardashian is one, Paulhan is one,
Speaker 2: And what that means is like decades ago, you'd have
Speaker 2: three or four, So the room of people making decisions
Speaker 2: is quite small.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: It's like this flex that every actor sort of wants
Speaker 2: to be an EP as well. And I think we're
Speaker 2: starting to create these vanilla Frankenstein's like where we've got
Speaker 2: too much input that it then just dilutes an idea
Speaker 2: and becomes absolute garbage the next show you're watching. Have
Speaker 2: a look at how many people had creative input, and
Speaker 2: there is a threshold at which there is just too much,
Speaker 2: Like did Kim Kardashian need a seat at the table
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 3: I think you're onto something there because and just like
Speaker 3: that had the same issue. It did too the actors
Speaker 3: were executive producers and Rotten Tomatos. For some time now,
Speaker 3: people have been talking about the fact that because it's
Speaker 3: so important, it is getting gained. Yeah, and I don't
Speaker 3: know if you remember this, but about a year ago
Speaker 3: it came out that Paddington iiO had the highest Rotten
Speaker 3: Tomatoes rating of any movie ever, higher than Citizen Kane,
Speaker 3: which is often regarded as the cinematic masterpiece of the
Speaker 3: twentieth century. And you just got to wonder about any
Speaker 3: rating system. I mean, look, I think Paddington Too is
Speaker 3: delightful and Hugh Grant is as usual stealing the show.
Speaker 3: But I just wonder if Paddington two really is the
Speaker 3: best movie of all time.
Speaker 1: So, as I mentioned, well, this is Kim's big fail
Speaker 1: of the moment, but just quietly she failed again this
Speaker 1: week because she didn't pass the bar. And anyone who's
Speaker 1: been watching the Kardashians nose that, like this has been
Speaker 1: a big theme throughout all of the seasons, and she's
Speaker 1: been studying very hard, and she's been working advocating for
Speaker 1: people in prison, and she failed the bar. So this
Speaker 1: feels like Kim Kardashian is failing. In her personal life.
Speaker 1: She's failing. I mean, she can't control the men that
Speaker 1: come into her sphere, so I guess that's out of
Speaker 1: her control. But career wise, like her actual career as
Speaker 1: a lawyer is failing. Her alternate career as an actress,
Speaker 1: she is failing. Are we now witnessing Kim Kardashian's flop era?
Speaker 1: And what can she learn from all of this? We think?
Speaker 1: I mean, she's fine. I love this for her.
Speaker 3: I think this is why she is still just as
Speaker 3: relevant today as she was ten years ago, fifteen years ago.
Speaker 3: It's because she is willing to keep reinventing herself and
Speaker 3: taking risks, and she's failed lots of times. Like I'm
Speaker 3: thinking back to her skincare line that she tried to
Speaker 3: launch a couple of times that never took off, and
Speaker 3: it should have. Skims took off because she got really
Speaker 3: smart people around her and she knew exactly what moment
Speaker 3: she was in. But I love her failing the California Bar.
Speaker 3: Isn't this the second or third time that she's failed?
Speaker 1: At this point, I don't know which bar she's failed,
Speaker 1: becausemember she failed the baby bar last time, and whether
Speaker 1: this is the full fledged one or a retake of
Speaker 1: the baby bar, I'm not sure, but yeah, she has.
Speaker 2: Failed before, so I believe that she has now passed
Speaker 2: the baby bar, but that it was the last time
Speaker 2: she could possibly do it the time that she passed,
Speaker 2: and then she studied really hard with this. She did
Speaker 2: say she relied heavily on chat GPT and she has
Speaker 2: some firm words for chat GPT. She says that sometimes
Speaker 2: it's more like a go girl, believe in yourself, and
Speaker 2: she's like, I just need the answer, which yes, I agree,
Speaker 2: But I think she has entered her flop era. Kim
Speaker 2: Kardashian is nothing if not self aware, and that is
Speaker 2: her superpower. So even her caption on Instagram about the
Speaker 2: All Fairs All's Fair thing, which was like, have you
Speaker 2: guys watched the critically acclaimed All's Fair yet? Like she
Speaker 2: thought that was funny that it was bad and she
Speaker 2: posted about failing. She didn't have to post that she
Speaker 2: failed that exam. But I mean, we all enter flop eras,
Speaker 2: we've got to own them. There is humor in them,
Speaker 2: and all power to Kim Kardashian.
Speaker 1: I think this is amazing because I've had these conversations
Speaker 1: with my daughter very recently, because when I pick her
Speaker 1: up from school, I'd ask her about, you know, tell
Speaker 1: me one thing that happened today, what did you succeed
Speaker 1: at today? And We've had these kind of conversations, and
Speaker 1: then one day I just asked her, did you fail
Speaker 1: at anything today? And she was like, oh, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't want to think about that. And then I
Speaker 1: was like, but we learn from that, Like if you
Speaker 1: fail at something, you learn some really big lessons from failing.
Speaker 1: And she was like, oh, And now we have conversations
Speaker 1: about successes and failures, so that as she grows up,
Speaker 1: she's going to be like, Okay, what did I learn
Speaker 1: from that fail rather than oh my god, I failed.
Speaker 1: I'm the worst human in the world, and now I
Speaker 1: can never do that again because I've failed at it
Speaker 1: and I must be terrible. I love talking about failure,
Speaker 1: and I'm like you, Amelia. I think this is a
Speaker 1: really great moment for her because she's embracing it, she
Speaker 1: learns from it, she keeps moving forward, she keeps trying,
Speaker 1: she does things that gets her out of her comfort zone.
Speaker 1: She does something new and different and incredible, and then sure,
Speaker 1: sometimes it succeeds and sometimes it fails. But she's not
Speaker 1: just hanging off of the Kardashian success for the rest
Speaker 1: of her life. It's really quite interesting this time of
Speaker 1: her life.
Speaker 3: I've got another little tidbit of gossip related to the Kardashians,
Speaker 3: and it's about Chris Jenner, who's not failing at anything
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 1: She is in whatever the opposite of a floppy era is.
Speaker 3: She's got her brand new face that has been critically acclaimed,
Speaker 3: unlike Kim Show. And she just celebrated her seventieth birthday
Speaker 3: on Friday night in Los Angeles in Beverly Hills at
Speaker 3: Jeff Bezos's mansion, and the guest list was very impressive.
Speaker 3: It was everyone from Mark Zuckerberg to Oprah and Gail
Speaker 3: to Rita Wilson. Tom Hanks's wife is also an actress
Speaker 3: in her own right, to Miranda Kerr and the Snapchat
Speaker 3: guy she's married.
Speaker 1: To, Evan Adele, was there.
Speaker 3: Interestingly, she covered her face with her handbag on the
Speaker 3: way in, which reminded me of remember when Leonardo DiCaprio
Speaker 3: went to the Bezel's wedding and just pulled his hat
Speaker 3: down on.
Speaker 2: I would absolutely go to christ Janna's seventieth and I
Speaker 2: would absolutely hide my face on my way in and
Speaker 2: out because I think the out louders would be, you know,
Speaker 2: probably call me out fairly, but I'd be like, guys,
Speaker 2: I'm there for the gossip.
Speaker 3: But what I found really interesting about this is that
Speaker 3: Chris Jenna was not always Hollywood royalty. In fact, she
Speaker 3: was on the outs in Hollywood all through the twenty tens.
Speaker 3: The Kardashian family was seen as very naff, sort of embarrassing.
Speaker 3: They certainly didn't have any credibility in the sort of
Speaker 3: moneyed halls of Beverly Hills. And now Chris Jenna seems
Speaker 3: to be the queen of Hollywood, and she's bringing together
Speaker 3: not just actors like the Riata Wilson's of the world,
Speaker 3: but also like media moguls like Oprah and then tech
Speaker 3: moguls like Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos. And my genuine
Speaker 3: question is, how did she pull this off? And why
Speaker 3: does everyone feel that they need to be there at
Speaker 3: Chris Jenna's birthday party?
Speaker 2: I reckon behind the scenes. She must be an incredible networker, right,
Speaker 2: Like she must be one of those people that everyone
Speaker 2: actually quite likes. This happens in like Australian media circles,
Speaker 2: where it's not who you'd expect who were like the
Speaker 2: most connected and almost the most popular. Did I read
Speaker 2: though that Chris Jenna had Harry and Meghan Harry the.
Speaker 3: Duke and Duchess of Sussex were there. But I want
Speaker 3: to just push you on that, Jesse, because we knew
Speaker 3: there were friends, by the way, because Megan had sent
Speaker 3: her Rose when she launched her Rose, so that's when
Speaker 3: that connection first came about. But I want to distinguish
Speaker 3: between someone who's a good networker and someone who's just
Speaker 3: a lot of fun to be around, because that's what
Speaker 3: I'm trying to figure out with her. Do people think
Speaker 3: it's strategic to show up at her party or is
Speaker 3: she just the best fun in Hollywood? Oh?
Speaker 1: I think she might be really fun. I think she
Speaker 1: might be really fun too. But I also feel like
Speaker 1: the Kardashian power has shifted over the years. Remember when
Speaker 1: their power was kind of intangible, like they were famous
Speaker 1: for being famous. There was all of that, and I
Speaker 1: think as we've kind of progressed, and these women have
Speaker 1: become incredibly successful business women in their own right, and
Speaker 1: you know, Chris still at the head of that family
Speaker 1: as their agent and taking care of business, and her
Speaker 1: influence has grown and grown and grown, and I think
Speaker 1: just the nature of the world that we now live
Speaker 1: in that's less about the old money and about the
Speaker 1: old ways and more about the you and the flashy
Speaker 1: and the next and the latest. I think her power
Speaker 1: is actually shifted into a place where I think people
Speaker 1: probably are also networking with her in a way that
Speaker 1: they wouldn't have done ten years ago. I have a
Speaker 1: little piece of gossip about Jeff Bezos. He has a house.
Speaker 3: In Washington, DC, where I used to live, and I
Speaker 3: have a friend who once went to a party at
Speaker 3: his Washington DC mansion.
Speaker 1: And here is the little tidbit.
Speaker 3: He owns two mansions and they're on other sides of
Speaker 3: the street from each other there, and one of the
Speaker 3: mansions is just for parties, and it's full of like
Speaker 3: really historic, pricey memorabilia and beautiful frange pictures and it's
Speaker 3: specifically designed to entertain people and impress people. And then
Speaker 3: on the other side of the Street is his actual
Speaker 3: house that he lives in, And what's the bet that
Speaker 3: that's just got some comfy sofas and some oh some
Speaker 3: big big screen TVs. And I just love the idea
Speaker 3: of a dedicated party house for Jeff Bezos.
Speaker 2: After the break, the New York Times asked a very
Speaker 2: simple question, nothing wrong with asking a question. They just
Speaker 2: wanted to know if women ruined the workplace? And the
Speaker 2: internet got really mad, and we are here to dissect it.
Speaker 2: Did women ruin the workplace? The New York Times? They did,
Speaker 2: and they took the words right out of our mouths.
Speaker 2: They are reading our minds. Last week, the New York
Speaker 2: Times published that headline, and as tends to happen on
Speaker 2: the internet, there was a lot of blowback to the headline.
Speaker 2: I think most people didn't actually read what was beyond it.
Speaker 2: That's not to say the headline isn't offensive or problematic,
Speaker 2: but the article itself was somewhat more complicated, and we'll
Speaker 2: get to that.
Speaker 1: They also changed the headline.
Speaker 2: Oh, they changed the headline like six times.
Speaker 3: So it did start off as did women ruin the Workplace?
Speaker 3: And people were upset, they said, we've heard you. They
Speaker 3: changed it to did liberal feminism ruin the workplace?
Speaker 2: Yes, they kept trying to kind of hedge hedge hedge,
Speaker 2: and you could just hear the panic in the newsroom,
Speaker 2: which a it's quite enjoying. Host Ross Douthat interviewed two
Speaker 2: conservative female writers. One is named Helen Andrews, the other
Speaker 2: is Leah Libresco Sergeant, and they make two very different points,
Speaker 2: but he sits down with them and basically they all
Speaker 2: explore the idea that workplaces have become more woke, and
Speaker 2: wokism is of course a result of the feminization of
Speaker 2: the workplace. So apparently women they care more about this
Speaker 2: equality bullshit. They are more driven by empathy, social justice, priorities,
Speaker 2: consensus over decision making.
Speaker 1: God, we're awful, I know.
Speaker 2: And this shift has meant that we have lost important
Speaker 2: things like hierarchy, assertiveness, and risk taking, which are all
Speaker 2: essential to a thriving workplace. Helen Andrews says that feminine
Speaker 2: vices such as gossip and an inability to deal with
Speaker 2: conflict directly have led to very corrosive things like the
Speaker 2: meter movement.
Speaker 3: Don't get her started on.
Speaker 2: The TV show All's Fair, while in fact, can we
Speaker 2: pin that on men? Because men wrote that they delivered
Speaker 2: the scripts the poor women, which I feel like is
Speaker 2: actually kind of a metaphor for what's going on here.
Speaker 2: But before we go to did women ruin the workplace?
Speaker 2: I want to explore the idea of did women in
Speaker 2: fairness change the workplace? What do you reckon?
Speaker 1: I mean, of course they did, moving from this notion
Speaker 1: that a man's only role in this world is to
Speaker 1: go to work and make money and come home. This
Speaker 1: is an opportunity that I feel men have maybe let
Speaker 1: them pass by, but inviting women into the workplace freed
Speaker 1: them up to have more life than breadwinner. And when
Speaker 1: women came in it of course introduced things like maternity
Speaker 1: leave initiatives. It also created things like workplace discrimination legislation
Speaker 1: came on board, so things definitely changed when women came
Speaker 1: into the workforce. But like I said, men lost an
Speaker 1: opportunity to pull back from the workforce, to not have
Speaker 1: that be their entire identity. And I think this is
Speaker 1: where we're failing men in particular, as no one taught
Speaker 1: them what to do once they weren't the only ones
Speaker 1: doing that important role, and they've kind of been left
Speaker 1: wondering what their purpose is in life now because they
Speaker 1: did not take the on id to say this. Conservative
Speaker 1: men in particular didn't take the opportunity to explore becoming
Speaker 1: better and more involved fathers, or finding ways to better
Speaker 1: their society and community, or you know, looking beyond their
Speaker 1: worth as a dollar sign. Like it's a really interesting
Speaker 1: moment where we could have collectively made everyone's lives different
Speaker 1: and more interesting, and instead, conservative men in particular chose
Speaker 1: to stand still.
Speaker 2: All right, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here because
Speaker 2: I would be lying if I didn't confess that I
Speaker 2: have sat with lots of people who are very high
Speaker 2: up in businesses, who work across lots and lots of
Speaker 2: different industries, young people, older people, lots of different people
Speaker 2: who have said some version of this right when they're
Speaker 2: in private. So they will say something like women are
Speaker 2: harder to manage workplaces with more women are bit here
Speaker 2: they will say women are conflict avoidant, And so what
Speaker 2: you get is a lot of they're not honest with
Speaker 2: each other. We are finding that a lot of this
Speaker 2: social justice stuff is impacting our bottom line. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying I agree with any of this, but like, if
Speaker 2: this is a conversation that is happening, and people are
Speaker 2: going the workplace is changing. And that's the thing is
Speaker 2: that once you get women in, even when the subject
Speaker 2: of minorities, it's like yeah, and those people are going
Speaker 2: to change a workplace. That's also why we want to
Speaker 2: diversify and have a more inclusive workplace. But is that
Speaker 2: worth discussing. I mean, if that is a true phenomenon, yeah, Look.
Speaker 3: I'm going to piggyback on that and say I was
Speaker 3: really interested to listen to this conversation because Helen Andrews
Speaker 3: starts from an accurate place. The place she starts from
Speaker 3: is that we are losing trust in all these affe
Speaker 3: authority figures and institutions that we used to believe and trust.
Speaker 3: So I'd think of government, I'd think of yes, media,
Speaker 3: I think of churches, I'd think of all sorts of
Speaker 3: institutions that are failing us now because we don't trust
Speaker 3: them like we used to. And so her question is why,
Speaker 3: and her answer happens to be women. And you know,
Speaker 3: I think that's what we're spending time unpacking here. But
Speaker 3: it's a reasonable question to ask why did institutions start
Speaker 3: to fail us? And her basic point is that women
Speaker 3: care more about relationships than men, and men care more
Speaker 3: about rules than women do. That's the sort of premise
Speaker 3: of what she's saying here. And I think it's very
Speaker 3: silly to say that men care more about rules than
Speaker 3: women while we're watching the world burn, because a bunch
Speaker 3: of men who are probably at Chris Jenner's birthday party
Speaker 3: don't care about rules at all.
Speaker 2: Her other point is that men are warriors and they
Speaker 2: have been like evolutionarily primed to go to right, so
Speaker 2: they are all about conflict, aggression and resolution. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've read a story about war,
Speaker 2: but war is not often a story of resolution, Like
Speaker 2: it takes a lot of time and a lot of death.
Speaker 2: And if that is the blueprint of our corporate workforce,
Speaker 2: then I have a few criticians.
Speaker 3: World War One was followed by World War yes exactly.
Speaker 2: I don't think that they all then hold hands and go.
Speaker 2: Now we all agree where she says women obviously their
Speaker 2: only job is to have and look after children, and
Speaker 2: therefore they are more about social dynamics talking.
Speaker 1: Jesse are not being fair about this book that she loves.
Speaker 1: What she says is.
Speaker 3: Then are warriors, meaning they go out and fight battles.
Speaker 3: Women are warriors, meaning they worry about things exactly.
Speaker 2: And what we need is the workforce is best run
Speaker 2: by warriors, which is the war ones. And if you
Speaker 2: can see it.
Speaker 3: Sounds better in an American access, I will say.
Speaker 1: I am just I'm really frustrated obviously at these conversations
Speaker 1: because it's not conversation, it's provocation. And it makes feminism
Speaker 1: this idea that women want to be seen as same
Speaker 1: and it's not that at all. We obviously are different
Speaker 1: to men, like that's not the question, and that was
Speaker 1: never what feminism was about. Feminism is about equality. It's
Speaker 1: about political equality, it's about social equality, it's about economic equality.
Speaker 1: It's not about being the same as men. Women bring
Speaker 1: different things to the table. It doesn't mean they're worse things.
Speaker 1: We are flawed just as men are. We're going to
Speaker 1: make mistakes and do things just as men do. But
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, if we can together
Speaker 1: work together to make it an equal experience, regardless of
Speaker 1: what skills we bring to the table, that is what
Speaker 1: feminism aimed to do. And the problem with the word
Speaker 1: feminism is it has the word feminine in it, and
Speaker 1: men conservative men in particular, see that as lesser. We
Speaker 1: don't want to be that that is a threat to
Speaker 1: my masculinity instead of seeing it as an accompaniment or
Speaker 1: a way to improve yourself is by aligning with that
Speaker 1: femininity and exploring that and seeing how that can work
Speaker 1: better together. Because the patriarchy, yes, started with men who
Speaker 1: will worry yours and who decided that this combatitive nature
Speaker 1: of government and the way that people should be put
Speaker 1: in their place. That's why that was created at a
Speaker 1: time where that difference between men and women was because
Speaker 1: men were physically stronger, and so that was how that
Speaker 1: had to play out in that time. In our existence
Speaker 1: right now, we understand we do jobs that don't require physicality,
Speaker 1: and for that you don't need to be a man
Speaker 1: or a woman or any gender in particular. You can
Speaker 1: actually be the same on the same playing field. But
Speaker 1: you have to understand that that system has to be
Speaker 1: dismantled first. And men are so unwilling to let that
Speaker 1: go because when you're at the top of the food chain,
Speaker 1: why would you want to share that with anyone?
Speaker 2: Well, I think some men are and interestingly here some
Speaker 2: women are right, And there's a question at the end
Speaker 2: of the interview where Helen is asked to name a
Speaker 2: feminine attribute that she thinks is good and she can't
Speaker 2: do it. She can's going back and forth and being
Speaker 2: like she really struggles to go. Is there anything about
Speaker 2: the feminine or female inclusion in the workplace that might
Speaker 2: be read as positive? But I see your point clear
Speaker 2: that it's like it's about the workplace is going to change.
Speaker 2: And if you look at your Jeff Bezos as the
Speaker 2: example of your masculine vices, So let's pillage the environment,
Speaker 2: let's exploit people. Let's money at all costs a certain.
Speaker 3: Pe in water bottles instead of having toilet breaks if
Speaker 3: they work at an Amazon.
Speaker 1: Fashion exactly, and you know what, that is profitable.
Speaker 2: And if that's the world that Helen Andrews is advocating for,
Speaker 2: then you are right. But I think that a lot
Speaker 2: of us men and women are going that's not the
Speaker 2: kind of workplace that's actually functional or sustainable or works
Speaker 2: long term.
Speaker 1: It's really hard for women to pea and water bottles
Speaker 1: really difficult unless you have a shi wi that will
Speaker 1: make things.
Speaker 3: And number two, i'd just say, if you've got a
Speaker 3: party house in a regular house, maybe you should interrogate
Speaker 3: how you're running a business that made that possible exactly.
Speaker 2: Maybe you just need one house there. The female said it,
Speaker 2: I said it, How dad are you?
Speaker 3: If you were born before nineteen ninety seven, I've got
Speaker 3: a few things I want to update you on, and
Speaker 3: if you were born after nineteen ninety seven, I'd suggest
Speaker 3: you should listen along.
Speaker 1: You might learn something. How about that?
Speaker 3: Respect your olders, sorry, respect your elders. The first thing
Speaker 3: I wanted to tell us people born before nineteen ninety
Speaker 3: seven is that I went to an oasis this weekend.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, I went to their concert and it was
Speaker 3: so great well that I had the best time. Holly
Speaker 3: was there too. We were singing our heart out to
Speaker 3: Don't Look Back in Anger. The second thing I want
Speaker 3: to tell you about is that we are apparently doing
Speaker 3: something else wrong.
Speaker 1: Now, can we just add it to the list of things? Okay,
Speaker 1: what are we doing wrong today? Amelia? Millennials go around?
Speaker 1: Because I just found out that we were getting made
Speaker 1: butter for something called the millennial Smile.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the millennial smile. It's essentially what Tyra Banks
Speaker 3: told us to do when she said to smiles, remember that.
Speaker 1: It's smiling with your eyes, smiling with your eyes.
Speaker 3: Your lips are closed, you're smiling with your eyes, You're
Speaker 3: looking very benevolent about the world. And look, I would
Speaker 3: rather be accused of having the millennial smile than the
Speaker 3: gen z stare. I'm just going to put that out there.
Speaker 3: But also I did feel deeply shamed and guilty when
Speaker 3: I watched this video because I absolutely do the millennial smile,
Speaker 3: particularly in selfies.
Speaker 2: Okay, because what was distinctive about this smile too, is
Speaker 2: that you don't open your lips, right, I like yours.
Speaker 1: First raised up. But it's not dark faced. No, it's
Speaker 1: just like a very gentle like I don't even know
Speaker 1: how to smirk.
Speaker 2: It's how I smiled when I had braces, which was
Speaker 2: like I'm trying to hide my dental work. Now, I
Speaker 2: think because I had braces on my teeth, I was scappy,
Speaker 2: and I had that two years. I feel like now
Speaker 2: I'm still just stoked. I don't have races anymore, so
Speaker 2: I smile with all the teeth. But we had to
Speaker 2: have a smile in our bank for when we took
Speaker 2: our forty eight MySpace photos like an album of our
Speaker 2: night out where we just looked exactly the same at
Speaker 2: the nightclub with our digital camera, where we would do
Speaker 2: that face with our like good angle.
Speaker 3: That's interesting because I've got a slightly different theory ast
Speaker 3: how originated, which is maybe because I'm an elder millennial
Speaker 3: and you are a baby millennial. Yes, that the term
Speaker 3: us elder millennials still remember taking the little camera roll
Speaker 3: to the chemist to get the photos printed. Yes, And
Speaker 3: there was always this moment that you went to pick
Speaker 3: up the photos once they were printed, and your hands
Speaker 3: will practically be shaking as you open this envelope to
Speaker 3: see if amongst the twenty four photos that you had careful,
Speaker 3: there may be one that is good enough for you
Speaker 3: to perhaps frame. Yeah, and you put up on your
Speaker 3: walls venue. And so we didn't have endless, endless opportunities
Speaker 3: to take photos. We only had the photos that we
Speaker 3: had on our twenty four photo role, Okay, And so
Speaker 3: we had to develop a fool proof way of smiling.
Speaker 3: And I see you not in Claire, You know what
Speaker 3: I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: Okay, So we couldn't risk it with teeth.
Speaker 1: Here's what you're saying, we couldn't. We can teek it
Speaker 1: with teeth. Teeth changes everything. And that's the thing. Is
Speaker 1: like when you are looking at your face in a camera,
Speaker 1: like if you don't smile with your teeth, it like
Speaker 1: elongates your cheeks a little bit, and like you don't
Speaker 1: look like a crazy person. And sometimes when you smile
Speaker 1: with all your teeth, it changes the whole shape of
Speaker 1: your face and like it broadens out your cheeks and
Speaker 1: it like changes squints up your eyes a little bit.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you want your eyes to be the focus, not
Speaker 1: the mouth. So it's been practiced in a way that
Speaker 1: you know that if I deliver this photo in a
Speaker 1: certain way, it'll probably turn out kind of okay. The
Speaker 1: smile is unpredictable and it depends on who you're standing
Speaker 1: next to, what angle you're looking at, Like, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of unknowns with a smile. Oh, I've been practicing forever.
Speaker 2: I lose my eyes, Like there are lots of issues. Also,
Speaker 2: my chin scrunches. There is a high probability of error.
Speaker 2: I just wish that I had maybe had this advice
Speaker 2: before my wedding.
Speaker 1: Well, can I just say I went to my niece's
Speaker 1: twenty first birthday very recently, and she had like this
Speaker 1: glorious setup with like draped fabric and candles and like
Speaker 1: things that people were posing in front of to have
Speaker 1: their photos taken. And someone handed me a camera and
Speaker 1: said can you take some photos for us? And I
Speaker 1: was like, of course, I'm cool. I can hang with
Speaker 1: twenty one year olds and take a decent photo. I've
Speaker 1: been doing this for a long time.
Speaker 3: I think that you using the phrase I can hang
Speaker 3: with twenty one year olds was your first.
Speaker 1: I mean internally, yes, but I would never say that
Speaker 1: out loud in front of the young people for fear
Speaker 1: of being judged. But I walked up and I held
Speaker 1: up the camera and before I'd even like gone to press,
Speaker 1: they were like no, no, no, no, no, no, no no,
Speaker 1: this is all wrong. Step back. I now have to
Speaker 1: take the photos from like under boob height. Oh I
Speaker 1: thought of the camera. No no, no, we do not
Speaker 1: take from above. You take from below. And then you
Speaker 1: take forty eight photos speech shots, whatever you want to
Speaker 1: do of them, kind of subtly shifting without smiling, and
Speaker 1: then some with smiles and then some with them on
Speaker 1: the opposite sides. But it's all done from like this
Speaker 1: under boob height, because they want the whole fit in
Speaker 1: the photo. There's no more above shots anymore. That is gone,
Speaker 1: that is out. There's a whole new law coming up
Speaker 1: through the ranks of how to take a photo, when
Speaker 1: is appropriate to take a photo, and what faces you
Speaker 1: pull in that photo. Like these are lessons that I
Speaker 1: am still learning, Claire.
Speaker 3: There might be law, there might be new lessons, but
Speaker 3: all I have to say to my gen z's is yes.
Speaker 3: This weekend I took a millennial smile photo from above
Speaker 3: as a selfie while singing Wonder War, and I regret nothing.
Speaker 1: After the break.
Speaker 3: Do you have any friends who you don't agree with politically,
Speaker 3: maybe even you don't agree with your partner politically. Well,
Speaker 3: Jennifer Lawrence and Sydney Sweeney have some differing theories on
Speaker 3: how you should.
Speaker 1: Deal with that.
Speaker 2: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mummyer
Speaker 2: out Loud just for MUMMYA subscribers. Follow the link in
Speaker 2: the show notes to get your daily dose of out
Speaker 2: Loud and a big thank you to all.
Speaker 1: Our current subscribers.
Speaker 3: So I've started getting the newspaper delivered because I'm regressing
Speaker 3: into my old man era, and my.
Speaker 1: Best friend still buys the newspaper, but she buys it
Speaker 1: almost specifically for the TV guide. She's such a nana.
Speaker 1: I don't love it.
Speaker 3: I was reading it on the weekend and I was
Speaker 3: millennial smiling as I turned the pages, modeling healthy reading
Speaker 3: habits for my children.
Speaker 1: Do you sniff your newspaper? No?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: I love, Oh God, the smell of a newspaper. I
Speaker 1: do miss it. Well, I must do that.
Speaker 3: I stopped and I read this survey result that really
Speaker 3: surprised me, shocked me, appalled me. It was a survey
Speaker 3: conducted by McKinnon, an Australian firm, and basically the headline
Speaker 3: is it says that young people are much more likely
Speaker 3: to cut ties in a friendship if someone disagrees with
Speaker 3: them politically. Basically, different political views have become a deal
Speaker 3: breaker for young people. And the stats are quite striking.
Speaker 2: And this was Australian.
Speaker 1: This is Australia.
Speaker 3: One in five eighteen to twenty four year old Australians
Speaker 3: say that different political views are a deal breaker. But
Speaker 3: you compare that to people who over sixty five, and
Speaker 3: that's only one in twenty.
Speaker 1: Say that different political views are a deal breaker.
Speaker 3: And it's interesting because we've been seeing a lot of
Speaker 3: celebrities recently, mostly in the US, being sort of called
Speaker 3: to question about their political.
Speaker 1: Views, and they know.
Speaker 3: I think they know instinctively that this has become the
Speaker 3: third rail, particularly for young people. Like celebrities used to
Speaker 3: be comfortable showing political views with us, but now they
Speaker 3: sense that the vibe has shifted. So, for instance, here's
Speaker 3: Jennifer Lawrence talking about this exact issue recently to The
Speaker 3: New York Times.
Speaker 5: I think I'm in a complicated recalibration because I'm also
Speaker 5: an artist, and I with this temperature and the way
Speaker 5: that things can turn out, I don't want to start
Speaker 5: turning people off to films and too art that could
Speaker 5: change consciousness or change the world because they don't like
Speaker 5: my political opinions.
Speaker 3: Now, look, Jennifer Lawrence, yes, she says she's an artist,
Speaker 3: she's a very good actor. But I think this is
Speaker 3: relevant to everyone right because right now everyone's living in
Speaker 3: this heightened political environment. The temperature is high for all
Speaker 3: of us. We may not be artists, but we are
Speaker 3: still having to figure out how to interact with other
Speaker 3: people who might not agree with us. So Jennifer Lawrence,
Speaker 3: very vocal during Trump one, basically has stepped back and
Speaker 3: said I'm not going to talk about politics now during
Speaker 3: second Shomp administration. So I am curious whether you feel
Speaker 3: this vibe shift too, Jesse. Do you feel like politics
Speaker 3: has become a real no go?
Speaker 2: Yes, And I feel as though there's a shift. I'm
Speaker 2: certainly seeing it among celebrities that they're sort of going.
Speaker 2: I know, it doesn't make a difference, and that's what
Speaker 2: Jennifer Lawrence said, doesn't make a difference when I come
Speaker 2: out and tell you how to It's not like it's
Speaker 2: shifting the needle and suddenly everyone votes for Harris. That's
Speaker 2: simply not what happened. And the second thing is my
Speaker 2: work tells my story, so for a lot of creatives,
Speaker 2: and I think that we put this pressure on a
Speaker 2: lot of different types of artists, whether it's writers or
Speaker 2: journalists or actors or musicians. It's like I have a
Speaker 2: certain set of politics. It might not reveal how I vote,
Speaker 2: but what my values are and what I believe that
Speaker 2: I convey through my work. And I don't owe you
Speaker 2: my ballot card. I don't need to tell you that.
Speaker 2: And in fact, Sidney Sweeney did an interview recently as well,
Speaker 2: which has been widely criticized, but I thought some of
Speaker 2: her answers were actually masterful. And she was asked about this,
Speaker 2: and here's what she said.
Speaker 4: The criticism of the content, which was basically that maybe
Speaker 4: specifically in this political climate, like wait, people shouldn't joke
Speaker 4: about genetic superiority like that was kind of like the
Speaker 4: criticism broadly speaking. And since you were talking about this,
Speaker 4: I just wanted to give you an opportunity to talk
Speaker 4: about that specifically.
Speaker 1: I think that when I have an issue, though, I
Speaker 1: want to speak about people.
Speaker 3: Here the subtext of that they're referring, of course, to
Speaker 3: that American eagle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she did.
Speaker 3: That. Whole interview with GQ was basically trying to go
Speaker 3: Sydney Sweeney into distancing herself from rumors that she supports
Speaker 3: Donald Trump. The whole interview, it wasn't about her acting.
Speaker 3: It wasn't about even her personal life really, even though
Speaker 3: she is dating Scooter Braun, which is weird. It was
Speaker 3: all about trying to get at whether or not she
Speaker 3: is a Trump supporter, and she was not playing that game.
Speaker 3: And this is the thing.
Speaker 2: She's twenty eight years old, she grew up in a
Speaker 2: red state or whatever, and we all know from Australia
Speaker 2: to the US, pretty much anywhere in the world. You
Speaker 2: know what, the biggest thing that dictates how you voted,
Speaker 2: your post code. That's why I think that even the
Speaker 2: story of how our tolerance for people who vote differently
Speaker 2: to us changes over a lifetime, I think that's a
Speaker 2: story of wisdom. I think that people over sixty five
Speaker 2: know something about having met a lot of different people
Speaker 2: from a lot of different walks of life, and they're
Speaker 2: just more comfortable going. I'd like to align on values
Speaker 2: with you, but that doesn't mean that we have to
Speaker 2: vote the same. Do you agree, Claire?
Speaker 1: Look, I just want to point out that we have
Speaker 1: played grabs from two young white women whose experience in
Speaker 1: the political sphere is very different to say, if they
Speaker 1: were from a minority, and the politics that is current
Speaker 1: affects those people quite deeply, and I feel like it's
Speaker 1: a very privileged place to come from to say I
Speaker 1: will no longer discuss it because in reality, they do
Speaker 1: have a platform. Whether it makes a big difference for
Speaker 1: who people vote for or not, they still have a
Speaker 1: platform on which they can disagree with politics. It hurts people,
Speaker 1: and I think that should be noted. But I come
Speaker 1: from a time as a kid where you never spoke
Speaker 1: about your politics. I very distinctly remember going to my
Speaker 1: local primary school with my mum on election day one
Speaker 1: year and I said to her, like, who did you
Speaker 1: vote for? When she came out, and she said, we
Speaker 1: don't share that information. We don't talk about that. And
Speaker 1: it was very much like politics and religion were no
Speaker 1: go zones when it came to discussing anything with your
Speaker 1: friendship circle, especially around the dinner table. You just didn't
Speaker 1: because it was divisive and because it could end in tears,
Speaker 1: and so you saved your relationships by not discussing those things.
Speaker 1: But I think now we more understand just how much
Speaker 1: politics hurts people. And I think if we are in
Speaker 1: a position to say something, to say something out loud,
Speaker 1: that maybe might make a difference to somebody somewhere. I
Speaker 1: think that's really important to do. But in whether you
Speaker 1: should end a relationship because you think differently from someone,
Speaker 1: I think that is where we're really falling down, because
Speaker 1: we have an opportunityy to burst through people's echo chambers,
Speaker 1: and instead we're fortifying echo chambers for people. So if
Speaker 1: you say to somebody because they believe differently to you
Speaker 1: that you no longer want to spend any time with them.
Speaker 1: They will organically move into spheres of people who are
Speaker 1: more like minded. And all that does is create these
Speaker 1: little loops of people, never busting out of that bubble
Speaker 1: to explore anything outside of the world that they live in.
Speaker 1: So we are doing ourselves a disservice by not allowing discourse.
Speaker 1: We just shut it down and we say we are
Speaker 1: no longer friends, instead of trying to talk things through
Speaker 1: and understand. And that's what we see happening in politics everywhere.
Speaker 1: They have echo chambers in their own party systems, and
Speaker 1: so they don't even consider what's happening outside of that bubble.
Speaker 1: They just automatically shut it down and move forward with
Speaker 1: whatever it is is they're on their agenda for that day.
Speaker 1: So we are creating just more fortified echo chambers from.
Speaker 2: That, including ourselves, right, because we're not allowing our own
Speaker 2: echo chamber to be challenged. But I want to ask
Speaker 2: you on the Sydney thing. So she said, I've always
Speaker 2: believed that I'm not here to tell people what to think.
Speaker 2: I'm just here to open their eyes to different ideas.
Speaker 2: And Jennifer Lawrence sort of said a similar thing, which is,
Speaker 2: I think the focus should be on decision makers, right,
Speaker 2: So when a big thing happens politically, we do see
Speaker 2: a lot of people jump to Taylor Swift say something
Speaker 2: like and I think that that's sometimes easier to run
Speaker 2: to a comment section of even your favorite influencer or
Speaker 2: your favorite musician, rather than lobbying a politician.
Speaker 1: It's because we don't have that direct influence on the
Speaker 1: decision makers. Even though they are elected by us, they
Speaker 1: very rarely listen to us. So when you can reach
Speaker 1: out to a celebrity and be seen in the comment
Speaker 1: section and have maybe a news service pick up your
Speaker 1: comments and have that bit like that feels like you
Speaker 1: actually have some agency in all of this, whereas talking
Speaker 1: to your decision makers, sending an email to some nameless,
Speaker 1: faceless person in a front office that may or may
Speaker 1: never respond to you like it feels very powerless.
Speaker 3: I just feel like you both are talking about celebrities
Speaker 3: like they're different from us in this day age, and
Speaker 3: on this score, I don't think they are. What I
Speaker 3: mean is Jennifer Lawrence and Sydney Sweeney. Yes, they both
Speaker 3: have movies to sell, but all of us have to
Speaker 3: work with other people, have to figure out how we
Speaker 3: get what we want from other people, have to nurture
Speaker 3: relationships with other people, whether they be our fans, or
Speaker 3: our family or our colleagues. And what I found interesting
Speaker 3: about both these women who are sort of we think
Speaker 3: coming from different sides of a political spectrum. We don't
Speaker 3: know that in Sydney Sweeney's case, but we think that
Speaker 3: they've both come to the same conclusion, which is, to
Speaker 3: get what you want from other people in twenty twenty five,
Speaker 3: you cannot talk about politics. And that's what I found
Speaker 3: so relatable about it. Yes, they both talked about their
Speaker 3: art and about their craft, but really that's what it
Speaker 3: comes down to. I think, if you want to get
Speaker 3: what you want from other people without having them shut down,
Speaker 3: without having them cut you off. We've seen the survey results.
Speaker 3: People will cut you off if they think that you
Speaker 3: have different politics to them. Is that a good situation
Speaker 3: to be in? Maybe it's just a return to what
Speaker 3: you were saying, Claire. In the olden days, there was
Speaker 3: the conventional wisdom you didn't talk about politics, and then
Speaker 3: we had this moment for a few decades where that
Speaker 3: was seen as perfectly fine fault of the conversation.
Speaker 2: I think that that's a good point, Amelia, that it's like,
Speaker 2: have we returned to a family Christmas? We will not
Speaker 2: talk about it around the dinner table, we wint I'm
Speaker 2: sensing that.
Speaker 1: A little bit.
Speaker 3: I mean, Australia invented the secret ballot. We have always
Speaker 3: been at people who is reluctant to share our political views,
Speaker 3: certainly compared to our friendzy Americans who when you register
Speaker 3: to vote, that you register to vote with a particular
Speaker 3: party and you can look up anyone's party affiliation.
Speaker 1: That is not the Australian way.
Speaker 3: But I'm wondering if the last couple of decades of
Speaker 3: everyone talking about politics all the time was just an
Speaker 3: anomaly and was maybe just bad manners. Maybe we do
Speaker 3: just need to regress to what our grandmothers told us,
Speaker 3: which is do not talk about politics.
Speaker 1: I would like to go back to a time where
Speaker 1: politics wasn't such an atainment like it felt like back
Speaker 1: in the day, politicians were beige and they did beij
Speaker 1: things like make policy decisions and try to balance budgets
Speaker 1: like it was beije as hell, and we didn't care
Speaker 1: enough and a lot of Australians would prefer to be
Speaker 1: fined then go to the polling station, not because you
Speaker 1: know it's an imposition for them, but that it's literally
Speaker 1: just don't care. And I feel like we should care
Speaker 1: less about politics because they should be getting on with
Speaker 1: the business of just running a freaking country and doing
Speaker 1: right by the citizens of said country. But instead we
Speaker 1: have this big entertainment system now where it's like they're
Speaker 1: outdoing each other with stunts and terrible things, and like
Speaker 1: it's become a different beast now and that's why we
Speaker 1: talk about it so much, because it's lost its beige
Speaker 1: intentions and now it's less about running a country than
Speaker 1: making a statement.
Speaker 2: Claire, I swear this question is relevant. Do you have
Speaker 2: your handbag on you?
Speaker 1: Yes, hang on, it's on the floor. Okay, don't judge me.
Speaker 1: It's a bum bag.
Speaker 2: Oh it's a bum bag.
Speaker 1: A bum bag, but it's a Mimco bum bag. Does
Speaker 1: that make me you were cross body or you were
Speaker 1: as a Yes? Yeah, me too. Sometimes I carried around
Speaker 1: with its little handle.
Speaker 3: I'm not ready to like calf de night it and
Speaker 3: wear it around my I.
Speaker 1: Know I've seen some people do it out in the wild.
Speaker 1: And they look amazing, but it's not me. Claire.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me three things that are in that bag?
Speaker 1: Can tell you that there is a key chain of
Speaker 1: Sylvester hanging off the front of it, which I got it.
Speaker 2: Yep, you've dazzled it.
Speaker 1: I have my foh balm, which I can't say out
Speaker 1: loud because it's a swear word, but it's f off
Speaker 1: herpes because I have a cold sail. Oh, it's not
Speaker 1: very exciting. I have some toothpicks that I stole from
Speaker 1: the restaurant.
Speaker 2: Excuse me, Claire. Can I see in your other hand
Speaker 2: that you're holding a wallet?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2: Okay, this is very interesting because we did an episode,
Speaker 2: a subscriber episode with myself, m Vernon and Holly where
Speaker 2: we went through our bags. We did a What's in
Speaker 2: your back?
Speaker 1: Just surprise?
Speaker 2: They were horrific things we found in there that were
Speaker 2: very embarrassing. But between the three of us, I don't
Speaker 2: think we had a single wallet.
Speaker 1: I not only have one, No, I have.
Speaker 3: Yes. Do you have coins?
Speaker 1: What do you do with them? I sometimes use them
Speaker 1: to pay for goods and services, which their intended purpose?
Speaker 2: This is wild?
Speaker 1: Am I nannying out? Right now?
Speaker 3: Is this? Like?
Speaker 1: Am I in my old Lady era? Is this what happening?
Speaker 1: I don't understand. There's also keysy do you want a
Speaker 1: phone that has pay on it? No?
Speaker 2: But I would love that, But no you don't Apple pay,
Speaker 2: Like do you know? Okay, this is this is a
Speaker 2: whole It is a whole intervention.
Speaker 1: A bank gave me cards to.
Speaker 2: Do that with, Like why do I need to Okay,
Speaker 2: all right, I need an intervention? This is incredible?
Speaker 1: All right?
Speaker 2: On last Thursday Subscribe episode you can listen Claire to
Speaker 2: how the world has moved on from wallets and you
Speaker 2: can also find out the disgusting things we found in
Speaker 2: our bags and they just they reveal some awful, awful
Speaker 2: things about us. There is a link to that episode
Speaker 2: in the show notes. Thank you out louders for joining us,
Speaker 2: and thank you Claire for filling in today. Move over,
Speaker 2: mister Beast. Do any of you guys even know him?
Speaker 2: We don't watch mister Bates.
Speaker 1: I have a small child. Of course, you have taught
Speaker 1: me who mister Beast is.
Speaker 2: Well have they taught you who we are? Claire? Because
Speaker 2: we are on YouTube in a big way?
Speaker 1: Are we YouTuber?
Speaker 2: We're YouTubers, so you can go and watch us on YouTube.
Speaker 2: And I found a comment that I really liked, and
Speaker 2: it was saying that our friend Amelia Lester over here
Speaker 2: looks like Maggie gillenhole. Have you ever had that she does?
Speaker 3: I used to get it constantly, I see him and
Speaker 3: I actually was one time in a shop in Brooklyn
Speaker 3: and guess what happened. My dog will Ganger walked in
Speaker 3: and Maggie and I and we used to look much
Speaker 3: more similar than we do now.
Speaker 1: Did you like? Spider Man me and each other like
Speaker 1: point at each other like you know?
Speaker 5: Are you me?
Speaker 3: Am I? You? You know? There's nothing more pathetic than
Speaker 3: someone who was not a celebrity going up to a
Speaker 3: famous person.
Speaker 1: And saying we look the same. So I chose not
Speaker 1: to draw attention to it. I love that so much.
Speaker 2: Well, if you want to see how much Amelia looks
Speaker 2: like our friend Maggie, you can see us over on YouTube.
Speaker 2: We will be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Bye bye bye.
Speaker 3: Mamma.
Speaker 2: Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which
Speaker 2: we have recorded this podcast.