WEBVTT - An Affair, A Murder And A Cover-Up: Inside The Missing Campers Trial 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.182 You're listening to a Mother Mea podcast. Mother Mea acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.702 the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 0:00:19.742 --> 0:00:29.102 recorded on It's March nineteenth, twenty twenty. Deep in Victoria's 0:00:29.182 --> 0:00:32.622 Rugget high Country, the warn and Gada Valley is quiet 0:00:32.662 --> 0:00:36.102 and still, apart from the sounds of the bush birds 0:00:36.302 --> 0:00:39.662 the sounds of water from the nearby river wind rustling 0:00:39.702 --> 0:00:43.462 through the trees. It's the kind of place only serious 0:00:43.502 --> 0:00:46.942 camp as venture into, and Russell Hill and Carol Clay 0:00:47.062 --> 0:00:50.622 have just set up their tent in bucks. Camp Aged 0:00:50.622 --> 0:00:54.662 in their seventies, this couple have a secret. They're having 0:00:54.662 --> 0:00:57.382 an affair, and going out bush has proven to be 0:00:57.462 --> 0:01:00.022 the perfect way for them to meet without the fear 0:01:00.062 --> 0:01:04.462 of prying eyes. Here they have very little phone reception 0:01:04.622 --> 0:01:07.462 and they rarely have to interact with anyone, but this 0:01:07.582 --> 0:01:11.342 trip is different. Usually, Russell checks in with his wife 0:01:11.342 --> 0:01:14.622 every few days via his high frequency radio, but she 0:01:14.662 --> 0:01:18.302 doesn't hear from him. After day one. As time stretches on, 0:01:19.022 --> 0:01:22.302 Robin Hill starts to get worried. The line is never 0:01:22.382 --> 0:01:27.062 this silence. Something's not right. When police finally reach the 0:01:27.062 --> 0:01:30.862 campsite eight days later, they find Russell and Carroll's burnt 0:01:30.862 --> 0:01:34.702 out campsite. Beside it, they find a locked ute with 0:01:34.782 --> 0:01:37.462 the contents of the couple's wallets strewn across the floor. 0:01:38.302 --> 0:01:42.662 Russell and Carol are nowhere to be found, and detectives 0:01:42.902 --> 0:01:57.182 are immediately suspicious. I'm Jemma Bath and this is True 0:01:57.222 --> 0:02:01.142 Crime Conversations, a Muma Mere podcast exploring the world's most 0:02:01.182 --> 0:02:04.142 notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the 0:02:04.182 --> 0:02:07.342 most about them. The one in Gadda Valley is the 0:02:07.382 --> 0:02:11.262 perfect place for anyone hiding a secret, anyone who doesn't 0:02:11.302 --> 0:02:14.182 want to be found, the perfect place to have an affair, 0:02:15.142 --> 0:02:18.342 but also the perfect place to get away with murder. 0:02:19.222 --> 0:02:22.342 Over the years, several people have gone missing there, never 0:02:22.382 --> 0:02:25.182 to be found again, and that very nearly happened to 0:02:25.262 --> 0:02:28.182 seventy four year old Russell Hill and seventy three year 0:02:28.222 --> 0:02:31.942 old Carol Clay. But thanks to some careful police work, 0:02:32.182 --> 0:02:35.382 detectives were able to track down a man named Greg Lynn. 0:02:36.182 --> 0:02:38.942 By his own admission, he'd been camping close to the 0:02:38.942 --> 0:02:43.142 couple in March twenty twenty. Eventually he'd tell them a 0:02:43.182 --> 0:02:44.982 story about what happened next. 0:02:45.702 --> 0:02:51.142 Shouldn't shut Shubert to him? I saw her in the peripheral. 0:02:51.422 --> 0:02:55.462 I didn't actually see which way she was standing, but 0:02:55.862 --> 0:02:58.662 when later she was lying face down on the ground. 0:02:58.942 --> 0:03:02.822 He says their deaths were accidental. Police say it was murder. 0:03:03.622 --> 0:03:05.862 But this isn't just a story about what happened at 0:03:05.902 --> 0:03:09.342 that camping spot. It's a story about an affair that 0:03:09.422 --> 0:03:13.022 got revealed in the most extraordinary and devastating of ways. 0:03:13.662 --> 0:03:16.662 Because the very same day Russell's wife and family found 0:03:16.702 --> 0:03:19.542 out he was missing, they also found out he'd been 0:03:19.622 --> 0:03:23.342 lying for a very long time, as his daughter's told 0:03:23.382 --> 0:03:24.382 sixty minutes. 0:03:24.582 --> 0:03:27.542 No, we didn't know anything about him and Carol being together. 0:03:28.302 --> 0:03:31.502 It's been really hard on mum because not only losing 0:03:31.502 --> 0:03:35.302 her husband, but also all did it talk about Carol. 0:03:36.102 --> 0:03:38.302 So she's got both. She's lost her husband and she's 0:03:38.342 --> 0:03:41.182 grieving the lots of her relationship. 0:03:41.822 --> 0:03:45.302 This case is still ongoing. A murder trial has just concluded, 0:03:45.342 --> 0:03:47.502 and Lynn is waiting to find out how long he'll 0:03:47.542 --> 0:03:51.942 spend by in bars. Journalist and author Sarah Krasnustein is 0:03:51.982 --> 0:03:54.622 writing a book about the missing campus as the case 0:03:54.662 --> 0:03:56.902 has been referred to by the media and has been 0:03:56.942 --> 0:04:00.462 at court for every moment of the trial. She joins us. 0:04:00.462 --> 0:04:01.782 Now to debrief. 0:04:10.502 --> 0:04:10.742 Sarah. 0:04:10.782 --> 0:04:14.182 I want to set up the various relationships at play here. First, 0:04:14.702 --> 0:04:17.902 Russell and his wife Robin. What do we know about 0:04:17.902 --> 0:04:19.262 the life they created together. 0:04:20.262 --> 0:04:23.582 They met in the sixties, they married in nineteen sixty nine, 0:04:24.262 --> 0:04:27.542 and they had three daughters, and for a time in 0:04:27.542 --> 0:04:31.342 the seventies Russell worked as a logger. They lived in 0:04:32.102 --> 0:04:36.102 what could be described as country towns, and then later 0:04:36.142 --> 0:04:41.302 in life, Russell reunited with his childhood's sweetheart, who was 0:04:41.342 --> 0:04:44.582 a woman called Carol Clay. What he had actually been 0:04:44.622 --> 0:04:47.502 her first boyfriend when they were teenagers, and then they 0:04:47.582 --> 0:04:50.742 had drifted away and married other people, had children with 0:04:50.782 --> 0:04:54.182 other people, and then in the early two thousands they 0:04:54.302 --> 0:05:02.142 reunited socially and romantically. Clay divorced her now ex husband, 0:05:02.462 --> 0:05:05.982 but Russell stayed with Robin, and at the time of 0:05:06.062 --> 0:05:08.662 his death they had been married for over fifty years. 0:05:08.902 --> 0:05:11.702 So he would I'll meet up from time to time 0:05:11.702 --> 0:05:16.302 with Carol for getaways and their camping trip in the 0:05:16.342 --> 0:05:18.462 Wan and Gedda Valley was the last of those. 0:05:19.742 --> 0:05:23.102 And what did Robin know or not know about their 0:05:23.142 --> 0:05:24.782 relationship over the years. 0:05:25.542 --> 0:05:27.142 So we heard in the court that he had told 0:05:27.182 --> 0:05:32.302 her early on that Carol was his first cousin and 0:05:32.542 --> 0:05:38.262 that kind of accounted for seeing her socially or various catchups, 0:05:38.942 --> 0:05:42.062 and she believed that, I think for a number of decades. 0:05:42.902 --> 0:05:47.262 And then a neighbor I think gave him an ultimatum 0:05:47.302 --> 0:05:50.422 that unless he told Robin about the affair, she was 0:05:50.462 --> 0:05:53.382 going to do it. So he ended up telling her. 0:05:53.742 --> 0:05:57.062 I think there was also mention that Carol and Russell 0:05:57.142 --> 0:05:59.062 had had an agreement that they would both leave their 0:05:59.102 --> 0:06:02.982 respective spouses, and she followed through on that and Russell 0:06:03.102 --> 0:06:06.862 ended up staying with Robin. And so there was also 0:06:06.862 --> 0:06:10.702 a sense that the families knew about the affair. They 0:06:10.862 --> 0:06:14.862 all kind of knew Russell and Russell's family knew Carol, 0:06:15.422 --> 0:06:18.542 but I don't think they were across the details of 0:06:18.582 --> 0:06:21.742 the frequency of when they would go away together. And 0:06:22.342 --> 0:06:25.622 on that last camping trip, Robin thought he had got along. 0:06:26.822 --> 0:06:29.702 And so these camping trips, this wasn't the first trip 0:06:29.782 --> 0:06:31.822 that Russell and Carol had taken together. 0:06:32.702 --> 0:06:37.782 No, we heard from Russell's mate, one of his radio friends, 0:06:38.422 --> 0:06:44.182 that Russell had told him earlier about the affair and 0:06:44.502 --> 0:06:47.022 he was kind of led into that knowledge. He had 0:06:47.022 --> 0:06:50.782 gone camping with them as well, But there were other 0:06:51.182 --> 0:06:54.662 of those radio friends in the high frequency radio group 0:06:54.742 --> 0:06:56.462 that Russell was a part of for a very long 0:06:56.502 --> 0:06:59.982 time who had no idea, so he seemed to be 0:07:00.022 --> 0:07:02.862 fairly discreet about it, and the family had reached some 0:07:02.902 --> 0:07:07.022 sort of understanding and in the court. I think another 0:07:07.662 --> 0:07:10.382 point is that we know so much about the private 0:07:10.662 --> 0:07:14.942 lives of the victims, things that otherwise would have been 0:07:14.982 --> 0:07:17.822 their business only, and that people may or may not 0:07:17.902 --> 0:07:20.102 have various opinions or judgments on. But at the end 0:07:20.142 --> 0:07:21.742 of the day, we only know what we heard in 0:07:21.782 --> 0:07:26.582 evidence in a trial, and it seemed an added tragedy 0:07:26.622 --> 0:07:28.622 on top of the loss of life to have this 0:07:28.742 --> 0:07:32.342 kind of public knowledge of those private family matters. So 0:07:32.382 --> 0:07:34.862 it was quite uncomfortable in that respect, but it did 0:07:34.942 --> 0:07:37.942 draw a picture of what was going on at the time, 0:07:37.982 --> 0:07:41.702 which was necessary to kind of understand why they were there, 0:07:41.782 --> 0:07:45.742 who they were, and the loss of life and what 0:07:45.822 --> 0:07:48.022 it represented to all the people that they left behind. 0:07:48.822 --> 0:07:51.582 I just want to touch on something you mentioned, just 0:07:51.582 --> 0:07:53.502 because people might be like, what do you mean by 0:07:53.502 --> 0:07:55.142 a high frequency group. 0:07:57.622 --> 0:08:03.462 Yes, so, Russell Hill was an amateur radio enthusiast and 0:08:03.542 --> 0:08:06.702 for most of the rest of us, like myself, who 0:08:06.782 --> 0:08:13.262 were unfamiliar with radio enthusiasms. Russell had a group of friends. 0:08:13.702 --> 0:08:18.822 I think they were all men who lived in and 0:08:18.862 --> 0:08:24.142 around Victoria, and they would chat most nights, if not 0:08:24.222 --> 0:08:27.422 every night, around six pm, and they all built their 0:08:27.462 --> 0:08:31.462 own radios. They had special licenses for operating the radios. 0:08:32.062 --> 0:08:35.302 The talk wasn't limited to radios themselves, but it was 0:08:35.982 --> 0:08:39.822 an interest that kind of united this group of older men, 0:08:40.582 --> 0:08:43.782 and that was a whole world that was interesting and 0:08:44.262 --> 0:08:47.822 new for me to see this madship that had grown 0:08:48.102 --> 0:08:48.982 in that context. 0:08:50.182 --> 0:08:53.702 And it's significant to this story because where Russell and 0:08:53.782 --> 0:08:58.262 Carol went camping was so remote that there wasn't much 0:08:58.422 --> 0:09:03.022 phone cell data. They were mainly relying on these radios 0:09:03.062 --> 0:09:04.622 if they did need to contact anyone. 0:09:05.022 --> 0:09:10.182 Yeah. Absolutely, Like the Wantageta Valley, like many other places 0:09:10.182 --> 0:09:13.502 in the Alpine National Park, which is in Victoria's high country, 0:09:14.142 --> 0:09:20.022 does not as a rule have mobile reception, so if 0:09:20.022 --> 0:09:23.302 you want to have contact with the outside world, they 0:09:23.302 --> 0:09:27.302 need a satellite phone or a high frequency radio. I 0:09:27.302 --> 0:09:31.582 think a few of the radio friends were campers as well, 0:09:32.102 --> 0:09:35.262 and they would use this six pm daily call to 0:09:35.342 --> 0:09:37.782 check that everything was going well, and they said that 0:09:37.822 --> 0:09:40.342 they used it in that capacity as well as for 0:09:40.462 --> 0:09:45.542 social reasons. We also heard that Robin Russell's wife didn't 0:09:45.622 --> 0:09:48.342 have the license that would have allowed her to have 0:09:48.382 --> 0:09:52.062 a chat on the radio and to actually be using 0:09:52.102 --> 0:09:54.462 the airwaves, but she was allowed to turn it on 0:09:54.542 --> 0:09:58.022 and listen to it in terms of the licensing regulations, 0:09:58.342 --> 0:10:00.982 and she would do that as well when Russell went 0:10:00.982 --> 0:10:03.862 away on his camping chips to check that he was 0:10:04.062 --> 0:10:06.862 going all right. She wouldn't necessarily listen to the whole thing, 0:10:06.902 --> 0:10:09.462 but she'd turn it on here his voice, and then 0:10:09.502 --> 0:10:14.102 she'd be comforted by that. So the radio did play 0:10:14.142 --> 0:10:17.102 a huge part in this particular case. 0:10:18.022 --> 0:10:21.062 Because Russell camped with Carol, but he also camped alone, 0:10:21.142 --> 0:10:23.262 didn't he He was quite an experienced bushman. 0:10:23.782 --> 0:10:28.302 Yes, he was familiar generally with the high country and 0:10:28.342 --> 0:10:32.582 then specifically with the Wangata Valley. He'd worked there as 0:10:32.622 --> 0:10:36.622 a logger, and he also was instrumental in cutting one 0:10:36.622 --> 0:10:40.782 of the main tracks into the valley, the Ziga Spur track, 0:10:40.862 --> 0:10:45.182 which was also figured in the narrative of the killings. 0:10:46.462 --> 0:10:49.182 So he was familiar with this area and he really, 0:10:49.502 --> 0:10:52.582 by all accounts, loved it. Loved being out in nature, 0:10:52.742 --> 0:10:55.902 love the solitude and the tranquility of it, and he 0:10:55.982 --> 0:10:58.942 also loved to bring the people he loved there. I 0:10:58.942 --> 0:11:02.942 think he had brought Robin there before, and this last 0:11:02.982 --> 0:11:04.102 trip he was there with Carol. 0:11:05.222 --> 0:11:11.062 Because when we think about going into Australian bushland, especially camping, 0:11:11.782 --> 0:11:15.102 you might still think bitchuman roads. You know, some nice 0:11:15.142 --> 0:11:18.382 camping areas with potentially like a pit toilet. But this 0:11:18.542 --> 0:11:20.222 was rugged as it comes, wasn't it. 0:11:20.782 --> 0:11:23.622 Yeah. I mean that's part of my initial attraction to 0:11:23.662 --> 0:11:27.982 the story was the physical landscape in which the crime occurred. 0:11:28.862 --> 0:11:32.542 The valley itself is about three hundred and fifty kilometers 0:11:33.142 --> 0:11:36.782 northeast of Melbourne where I'm sitting now, and it's surrounded 0:11:36.942 --> 0:11:40.222 on all sides by very steep mountains, and they're the 0:11:40.302 --> 0:11:44.902 kind of mountains you'd see in The Man from Snowy River. 0:11:45.862 --> 0:11:48.662 The movie of The Man from Snowy River was actually 0:11:48.662 --> 0:11:52.342 filmed not very far from the area that we're talking about, 0:11:52.422 --> 0:11:58.982 So very steep sided mountains, mountain cattleman country, and the 0:11:59.062 --> 0:12:04.862 valley itself is only accessible by foot, horse, helicopter or 0:12:05.262 --> 0:12:08.582 four wheel drive, but you have to be quite proficient. 0:12:08.662 --> 0:12:12.622 Had four wheel driving because the tracks leading into it 0:12:12.782 --> 0:12:16.902 are graded like ski runs, and so they're extremely steep. 0:12:16.942 --> 0:12:20.302 There've been a number of fatalities of people who weren't 0:12:20.342 --> 0:12:24.342 that great drivers. And you need to know what you're 0:12:24.382 --> 0:12:27.382 doing and have a pretty firm grasp on the weather 0:12:27.662 --> 0:12:30.422 because it can be quite treacherous just to get there. 0:12:31.382 --> 0:12:35.142 So on the day that Russell and Carol go camping, 0:12:35.982 --> 0:12:38.982 Russell's wife thinks he's going on a solo trip. He 0:12:39.062 --> 0:12:43.302 picks up Carol. They go into the valley, they start camping. 0:12:43.942 --> 0:12:48.542 When did it become apparent that something might be going wrong. 0:12:49.422 --> 0:12:54.102 They got there, the campsite was called Dry River Camp 0:12:54.382 --> 0:12:57.382 or Bucks Camp. One of the other things I should 0:12:57.422 --> 0:13:00.622 mention is that many of these places are not even 0:13:00.662 --> 0:13:03.742 marked on maps, so they have different names, or they 0:13:03.942 --> 0:13:08.662 use trails or tracks that are subject to weather changes, 0:13:09.182 --> 0:13:14.142 and it's a really rugged terrain. So they get there, 0:13:14.182 --> 0:13:16.822 they set up camp in this beautiful spot. It's a 0:13:16.822 --> 0:13:21.902 wonderful spot that they chose near the river. And the 0:13:22.022 --> 0:13:26.342 last call that Russell made on the radio was the 0:13:26.462 --> 0:13:29.902 Friday night six pm call on the twentieth of March 0:13:30.022 --> 0:13:34.862 twenty twenty. It wasn't unknown for one of the group 0:13:35.022 --> 0:13:38.062 to miss a night here and there, that wasn't a 0:13:38.062 --> 0:13:41.782 big deal. But when he failed to check in on 0:13:41.822 --> 0:13:45.502 the Saturday the twenty first, and the Sunday the twenty second, 0:13:45.862 --> 0:13:50.302 and the Monday the twenty third, the friends generally, and 0:13:50.862 --> 0:13:53.382 a man named Robin Ashland specifically, who was the head 0:13:53.382 --> 0:13:57.102 of the group, knew that something was not right. And 0:13:57.142 --> 0:13:59.582 so in that sense, he would have known before most 0:13:59.582 --> 0:14:03.222 of Russell's family that something was not right. Robin was 0:14:03.222 --> 0:14:06.342 already across this because she had been checking in and 0:14:06.422 --> 0:14:09.782 not hearing him for that very odd patch of three days. 0:14:10.502 --> 0:14:13.862 And so they had a chat on the Monday, Robin 0:14:14.382 --> 0:14:17.302 and he advised her to go to the police, and 0:14:17.422 --> 0:14:18.422 she did that the next day. 0:14:20.022 --> 0:14:23.102 So what did the police do next? Do They immediately 0:14:23.822 --> 0:14:25.702 head to the campsite. 0:14:25.462 --> 0:14:29.342 After Robin had gone into the station. We heard evidence 0:14:29.382 --> 0:14:34.262 that they called Robin Ashland for exact directions where the 0:14:34.302 --> 0:14:41.022 campsite was. There is then a slight lag in actually 0:14:41.142 --> 0:14:45.422 arriving there first. That's, as I understand it, logistical because 0:14:45.822 --> 0:14:48.942 it takes a degree of preparation to actually get to 0:14:49.102 --> 0:14:51.902 that spot physically. But also you have to remember that 0:14:51.982 --> 0:14:54.862 this was the exact time that Melbourne was going into 0:14:54.942 --> 0:14:58.142 lockdown and the world was closing down. This is literally 0:14:58.942 --> 0:15:03.542 when COVID hit. So everything is on fire. And what 0:15:03.662 --> 0:15:06.822 had been explained to the police with the best knowledge 0:15:06.862 --> 0:15:13.062 and information that Russell Hill's wife and friend had looked 0:15:13.102 --> 0:15:15.742 for all intents and purposes like a missing person's case. 0:15:16.862 --> 0:15:20.862 So that was the presumption when police arrived at the campsite, 0:15:20.862 --> 0:15:22.582 and they got there in the twenty eighth of March, 0:15:23.462 --> 0:15:28.302 so the killings happened on the twentieth of March, and 0:15:28.342 --> 0:15:33.062 then Robin Hill goes to the police on the Tuesday, 0:15:33.142 --> 0:15:35.582 which I think was the twenty fourth of March, and 0:15:35.622 --> 0:15:38.982 then on the twenty eighth the police are there looking 0:15:39.022 --> 0:15:43.342 at what appears to the naked eye to be really 0:15:43.422 --> 0:15:48.502 strange scene of a burnt out campsite. So there's no 0:15:48.862 --> 0:15:53.462 immediate evidence that something has gone wrong, that people have 0:15:53.542 --> 0:15:57.262 been killed there. It looks strange and quite confronting because 0:15:57.262 --> 0:16:01.782 there's this huge burnt out fire. The side of Russell's 0:16:02.062 --> 0:16:06.862 white Land Cruiser has fire damage. The tent that housed 0:16:06.942 --> 0:16:10.062 the outdoor camping toilet that they had is still standing. 0:16:10.622 --> 0:16:12.982 All their equipment is there, all their food is there, 0:16:13.022 --> 0:16:15.982 but their wallets are kind of strewn in the footwell. 0:16:16.062 --> 0:16:18.542 The contents of the wallets have all been taken out, 0:16:18.822 --> 0:16:21.662 so it might be a robbery, but it might be 0:16:21.742 --> 0:16:25.022 something else. So there wasn't blood. They were looking at bodies. 0:16:25.062 --> 0:16:30.622 They had a very confusing scene to process and the 0:16:30.662 --> 0:16:33.382 immediate thinking was that these were campers who were gone missing. 0:16:33.382 --> 0:16:35.862 They seemed to have vanished into thin air. 0:16:36.502 --> 0:16:39.222 And at that point with the police only looking for Russell, 0:16:39.302 --> 0:16:44.342 when they arrived, they realized they also had another missing person, Carol. 0:16:45.142 --> 0:16:49.542 So immediately or soon after arriving, they could see her 0:16:49.582 --> 0:16:52.902 wallet with her ID in it, her Medicare card was, 0:16:52.942 --> 0:16:56.182 their driver's license was there, and there was clearly the 0:16:56.222 --> 0:17:00.062 equipment of two people. Her handbag there's two straw hats, 0:17:00.262 --> 0:17:04.382 two sets of runners, So there was that. And then 0:17:04.742 --> 0:17:09.422 in that week when Carol Clay's family report her missing, 0:17:10.702 --> 0:17:14.262 is that kind of additional knowledge that her family gives 0:17:14.262 --> 0:17:18.262 the police that she is probably with Russell. 0:17:19.142 --> 0:17:21.502 Obviously, when the police arrives, they can see that the 0:17:21.582 --> 0:17:27.622 scene looks strange and immediately suspicious. Do they jump immediately 0:17:27.702 --> 0:17:31.062 to foul play because you've got two people here who 0:17:31.142 --> 0:17:34.382 they discover are having an affair. I can imagine that 0:17:34.382 --> 0:17:37.502 they would go down that line of thinking first that 0:17:37.582 --> 0:17:40.302 potentially they've run away together and they're trying to make 0:17:40.342 --> 0:17:42.782 out to their families like they've run away. Was that 0:17:42.862 --> 0:17:45.222 something that was discussed, Yeah. 0:17:45.022 --> 0:17:46.982 I think early on it was one of the potential 0:17:47.022 --> 0:17:50.582 lines of inquiry, and then when there was nothing really 0:17:50.622 --> 0:17:54.022 to justify that in terms of bank statements or phone records, 0:17:54.462 --> 0:17:58.662 they moved on to this last in the bush or 0:17:58.782 --> 0:18:03.342 death by misadventure in the bush, or missing somewhere after 0:18:03.382 --> 0:18:08.102 something went wrong on a bushwalk. And that high country 0:18:08.222 --> 0:18:13.022 terrain has seen experienced ampers go missing without a trace, 0:18:13.822 --> 0:18:16.182 so that would have been part of the thinking as well. 0:18:16.942 --> 0:18:22.822 And the early searches were looking for live people who 0:18:22.982 --> 0:18:26.022 had straight away from the path, which is extremely easy 0:18:26.062 --> 0:18:28.982 to do in this terrain where the bush is so 0:18:29.862 --> 0:18:34.462 dense that it's difficult to move through it quickly. It's 0:18:34.582 --> 0:18:37.502 difficult to move through it at all. In some places 0:18:38.222 --> 0:18:41.862 you can lose the track even a meter away from 0:18:41.902 --> 0:18:44.302 the track. And you know, I write for a living, 0:18:44.662 --> 0:18:47.902 but it's difficult to explain with words unless you're looking 0:18:47.982 --> 0:18:52.662 at it. The sheer density of this surrounding bush. So 0:18:53.422 --> 0:18:56.302 missing person in the bush would have been I think, 0:18:56.462 --> 0:19:00.262 for a time the most logical conclusion. 0:19:01.502 --> 0:19:04.022 There have been reports, and even in researching this story, 0:19:04.062 --> 0:19:09.222 I've seen lots of chatter about potential strange people that 0:19:09.262 --> 0:19:12.182 have been seen in this area. One that pops up 0:19:12.182 --> 0:19:13.622 a lot is the Button Man. 0:19:14.582 --> 0:19:17.782 So during the trial we heard from the informant, who 0:19:17.902 --> 0:19:23.222 was Detective Sergeant Brett Florence, that this particular case generated 0:19:23.262 --> 0:19:28.582 a notably high volume of information coming through crime stoppers. 0:19:29.342 --> 0:19:33.622 And in those early months the police were looking at 0:19:33.742 --> 0:19:36.782 a number of possible theories and eliminating a number of 0:19:36.782 --> 0:19:42.622 potential suspects, each of whom was eventually cleared of any involvement. 0:19:43.462 --> 0:19:47.662 And so in the online forums and in the newspapers 0:19:48.022 --> 0:19:53.782 early on, popular speculation began to cluster around that person 0:19:53.902 --> 0:19:59.142 called the button Man. He was described in different ways. 0:19:59.222 --> 0:20:04.502 He's a white guy around seventy. They call him a loner, oddball, 0:20:05.342 --> 0:20:09.702 gun bushman. And what is true is that he lives 0:20:09.862 --> 0:20:12.622 in the High for months at a time at a 0:20:12.622 --> 0:20:18.182 particular campsite, perpetually camping, and he gathers deer antlers to 0:20:18.262 --> 0:20:23.262 slice into dear plugs that resemble buttons, and various campers, 0:20:23.302 --> 0:20:25.622 including some that i've spoken to when I was up there, 0:20:25.862 --> 0:20:29.382 have had run into with him. Generally they describe him 0:20:29.382 --> 0:20:33.182 as kind of like socially a bit weird sort of vibe, 0:20:33.182 --> 0:20:38.262 but not dangerous or particular scary. But then we hear 0:20:38.342 --> 0:20:43.342 all of these stories that he just materializes at the 0:20:43.422 --> 0:20:47.502 campsite and you don't know he's there, or he remains 0:20:47.702 --> 0:20:51.542 hidden and just kind of pops up, spooking hunters who 0:20:51.622 --> 0:20:55.742 thought they had been alone, or that campers get home 0:20:55.782 --> 0:20:58.542 and they find a photo of themselves sleeping on their 0:20:58.622 --> 0:21:02.462 camera that he might have took. So all of that reading, 0:21:03.142 --> 0:21:06.382 I initially thought that was some sort of urban myth 0:21:06.662 --> 0:21:10.262 or campfire ghost story. And then I read that the 0:21:10.422 --> 0:21:12.982 police had actually found him and interviewed him for this 0:21:13.662 --> 0:21:16.062 investigation and cleared him of any involvement. 0:21:16.982 --> 0:21:21.022 So the button Man's cleared. Yes, were police able to 0:21:21.262 --> 0:21:24.742 find anything in tracking the phones or devices. We know 0:21:24.822 --> 0:21:27.782 that they've got patchy phone reception, but there was a 0:21:27.822 --> 0:21:28.702 little bit of reception. 0:21:29.782 --> 0:21:31.782 There was a little bit of reception. Yeah, yeah, that's right. 0:21:31.902 --> 0:21:37.702 So one of the early pieces of evidence was through 0:21:37.822 --> 0:21:44.062 phone analysis of Russell Hill's phone, and it was moving 0:21:44.102 --> 0:21:48.342 along the Great Alpine Road at a particular time on 0:21:48.502 --> 0:21:51.302 the morning of the twenty first of March, the Saturday morning, 0:21:52.182 --> 0:21:55.662 so there was enough analysis for that to be pinpointed. 0:21:56.302 --> 0:21:57.342 The phones were never. 0:21:57.182 --> 0:22:01.142 Found, there were cameras up on one of the roads 0:22:01.182 --> 0:22:03.702 into the valley that police were able to use to 0:22:03.742 --> 0:22:07.142 track vehicles, and that actually became pretty much vital to 0:22:07.182 --> 0:22:12.462 their investigation. Can you describe that why it became so important. 0:22:12.742 --> 0:22:17.302 So this landscape, this terrain happens to be where one 0:22:17.342 --> 0:22:21.822 of the best ski resorts in Victoria is located. And 0:22:22.502 --> 0:22:27.462 one of the most important early breakthroughs was the CCTV 0:22:27.622 --> 0:22:32.502 on Mount Hawtham, which I think is used to enforce 0:22:32.942 --> 0:22:37.902 the resort's entry fee and has number plate recognition. And 0:22:37.982 --> 0:22:42.022 so just before ten am on the twenty first of March, 0:22:43.142 --> 0:22:47.462 it filmed Greg Linn driving his niece on patrol down 0:22:47.542 --> 0:22:52.022 the Great Alpine Road and so that, in combination with 0:22:52.062 --> 0:22:55.382 the phone analysis that showed Russell Hill's phone was also 0:22:55.702 --> 0:23:00.142 traveling down that road at that time, was one of 0:23:00.182 --> 0:23:04.462 the first solid pieces of evidence that turned police's mind 0:23:04.542 --> 0:23:08.062 to greglin as the princesspect in this case. 0:23:12.862 --> 0:23:16.382 You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jimmy Bath. 0:23:16.942 --> 0:23:20.262 I'm speaking with Sarah Krasnasdin about the missing campus trial. 0:23:20.982 --> 0:23:29.262 Up next, Greg Lynn tells detectives his side of the story. 0:23:29.302 --> 0:23:32.182 Did they get onto that clue and Greg Lynn is 0:23:32.222 --> 0:23:34.942 a possible suspect fairly quickly? Because that feels like quite 0:23:35.022 --> 0:23:36.142 intricate police work. 0:23:36.942 --> 0:23:39.222 Yes, it is so. Yeah, I mean I think in 0:23:39.262 --> 0:23:42.262 the sum of things, it was fairly quickly. Once they 0:23:42.342 --> 0:23:45.702 had eliminated all other kind of case theories, and the 0:23:45.702 --> 0:23:49.582 footage showed twelve different cars traveling through that area at 0:23:49.582 --> 0:23:51.582 that time, it was not super unusual. There are so 0:23:51.622 --> 0:23:55.022 many witnesses in this case, specifically, and witnesses who weren't 0:23:55.022 --> 0:23:58.222 called because all that COVID buzz was in the air, 0:23:58.262 --> 0:24:00.702 and people were thinking, Okay, well, maybe this is the 0:24:00.782 --> 0:24:03.342 last time I can get a weekend away here. Maybe 0:24:03.342 --> 0:24:06.502 they're going to close the parks, workers shutting down. We 0:24:06.622 --> 0:24:09.182 might as well have out. So there was nothing inherently 0:24:09.262 --> 0:24:12.302 suspicious about being on the road at that time. But 0:24:12.622 --> 0:24:15.382 Lind's carr was the only one on the road at 0:24:15.382 --> 0:24:20.502 the specific time that Russell Hill's phone was pinpointed, and 0:24:20.582 --> 0:24:22.902 then after the passage of some time, he was the 0:24:22.942 --> 0:24:27.862 only one who hadn't contacted the police. To explain who 0:24:27.942 --> 0:24:31.862 they were and where they were going. So from about 0:24:32.302 --> 0:24:35.662 mid twenty twenty they were zeroing in on Redlin. 0:24:36.502 --> 0:24:39.782 Can you give us some background on who Greg Limb 0:24:40.142 --> 0:24:41.742 was in twenty twenty. 0:24:42.022 --> 0:24:44.542 So we hear a lot, and I think it's because 0:24:44.582 --> 0:24:48.822 it's quite unusual that he's a pilot, a commercial pilot. 0:24:49.782 --> 0:24:53.342 And I think also just earlier I said, we know 0:24:53.422 --> 0:24:57.142 so much about the lives of the victims in trials 0:24:57.222 --> 0:25:01.982 like this, but we know comparatively little about the private 0:25:02.062 --> 0:25:05.822 life of the accused. And that's just part of how 0:25:05.862 --> 0:25:10.142 our system is structured. It's related to the presumption of 0:25:10.142 --> 0:25:14.302 inn since, but it's just something that doesn't sit particularly 0:25:14.622 --> 0:25:18.662 well in terms of fairness, not legally defined that people 0:25:18.702 --> 0:25:21.182 who had no choice in the matter have their lives 0:25:21.222 --> 0:25:26.462 on view while the person who created this tragedy gets 0:25:26.542 --> 0:25:30.062 to retain a measure of privacy. We'll find out a 0:25:30.062 --> 0:25:32.462 bit more about who he is and who he was 0:25:32.942 --> 0:25:36.582 at his sentencing hearing, when more personal information is presented 0:25:36.622 --> 0:25:40.982 to the court, psychological information about his personality, makeup, and 0:25:41.022 --> 0:25:43.942 his experience and background. But at the moment we still 0:25:43.982 --> 0:25:47.422 have kind of a fairly vague picture of him. He's 0:25:47.462 --> 0:25:51.662 fifty seven. He was most recently working for jet Star. 0:25:52.382 --> 0:25:54.822 He is married to a woman called Melanie Lynn, who 0:25:54.902 --> 0:25:58.062 is a flight attendant, and she's also the stepmother to 0:25:58.502 --> 0:26:01.942