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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother Mea podcast. Mother Mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on It's March nineteenth, twenty twenty. Deep in Victoria's

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Speaker 1: Rugget high Country, the warn and Gada Valley is quiet

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Speaker 1: and still, apart from the sounds of the bush birds

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Speaker 1: the sounds of water from the nearby river wind rustling

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Speaker 1: through the trees. It's the kind of place only serious

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Speaker 1: camp as venture into, and Russell Hill and Carol Clay

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Speaker 1: have just set up their tent in bucks. Camp Aged

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Speaker 1: in their seventies, this couple have a secret. They're having

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Speaker 1: an affair, and going out bush has proven to be

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Speaker 1: the perfect way for them to meet without the fear

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Speaker 1: of prying eyes. Here they have very little phone reception

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Speaker 1: and they rarely have to interact with anyone, but this

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Speaker 1: trip is different. Usually, Russell checks in with his wife

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Speaker 1: every few days via his high frequency radio, but she

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Speaker 1: doesn't hear from him. After day one. As time stretches on,

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Speaker 1: Robin Hill starts to get worried. The line is never

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Speaker 1: this silence. Something's not right. When police finally reach the

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Speaker 1: campsite eight days later, they find Russell and Carroll's burnt

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Speaker 1: out campsite. Beside it, they find a locked ute with

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Speaker 1: the contents of the couple's wallets strewn across the floor.

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Speaker 1: Russell and Carol are nowhere to be found, and detectives

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Speaker 1: are immediately suspicious. I'm Jemma Bath and this is True

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Speaker 1: Crime Conversations, a Muma Mere podcast exploring the world's most

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Speaker 1: notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the

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Speaker 1: most about them. The one in Gadda Valley is the

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Speaker 1: perfect place for anyone hiding a secret, anyone who doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to be found, the perfect place to have an affair,

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Speaker 1: but also the perfect place to get away with murder.

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Speaker 1: Over the years, several people have gone missing there, never

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Speaker 1: to be found again, and that very nearly happened to

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Speaker 1: seventy four year old Russell Hill and seventy three year

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Speaker 1: old Carol Clay. But thanks to some careful police work,

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Speaker 1: detectives were able to track down a man named Greg Lynn.

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Speaker 1: By his own admission, he'd been camping close to the

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Speaker 1: couple in March twenty twenty. Eventually he'd tell them a

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Speaker 1: story about what happened next.

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Speaker 2: Shouldn't shut Shubert to him? I saw her in the peripheral.

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Speaker 2: I didn't actually see which way she was standing, but

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Speaker 2: when later she was lying face down on the ground.

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Speaker 1: He says their deaths were accidental. Police say it was murder.

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Speaker 1: But this isn't just a story about what happened at

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Speaker 1: that camping spot. It's a story about an affair that

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Speaker 1: got revealed in the most extraordinary and devastating of ways.

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Speaker 1: Because the very same day Russell's wife and family found

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Speaker 1: out he was missing, they also found out he'd been

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Speaker 1: lying for a very long time, as his daughter's told

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Speaker 1: sixty minutes.

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Speaker 3: No, we didn't know anything about him and Carol being together.

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Speaker 3: It's been really hard on mum because not only losing

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Speaker 3: her husband, but also all did it talk about Carol.

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Speaker 3: So she's got both. She's lost her husband and she's

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Speaker 3: grieving the lots of her relationship.

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Speaker 1: This case is still ongoing. A murder trial has just concluded,

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Speaker 1: and Lynn is waiting to find out how long he'll

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Speaker 1: spend by in bars. Journalist and author Sarah Krasnustein is

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Speaker 1: writing a book about the missing campus as the case

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Speaker 1: has been referred to by the media and has been

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Speaker 1: at court for every moment of the trial. She joins us.

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Speaker 1: Now to debrief.

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Speaker 4: Sarah.

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Speaker 1: I want to set up the various relationships at play here. First,

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Speaker 1: Russell and his wife Robin. What do we know about

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Speaker 1: the life they created together.

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Speaker 4: They met in the sixties, they married in nineteen sixty nine,

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Speaker 4: and they had three daughters, and for a time in

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Speaker 4: the seventies Russell worked as a logger. They lived in

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Speaker 4: what could be described as country towns, and then later

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Speaker 4: in life, Russell reunited with his childhood's sweetheart, who was

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Speaker 4: a woman called Carol Clay. What he had actually been

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Speaker 4: her first boyfriend when they were teenagers, and then they

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Speaker 4: had drifted away and married other people, had children with

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Speaker 4: other people, and then in the early two thousands they

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Speaker 4: reunited socially and romantically. Clay divorced her now ex husband,

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Speaker 4: but Russell stayed with Robin, and at the time of

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Speaker 4: his death they had been married for over fifty years.

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Speaker 4: So he would I'll meet up from time to time

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Speaker 4: with Carol for getaways and their camping trip in the

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Speaker 4: Wan and Gedda Valley was the last of those.

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Speaker 1: And what did Robin know or not know about their

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Speaker 1: relationship over the years.

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Speaker 4: So we heard in the court that he had told

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Speaker 4: her early on that Carol was his first cousin and

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Speaker 4: that kind of accounted for seeing her socially or various catchups,

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Speaker 4: and she believed that, I think for a number of decades.

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Speaker 4: And then a neighbor I think gave him an ultimatum

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Speaker 4: that unless he told Robin about the affair, she was

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Speaker 4: going to do it. So he ended up telling her.

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Speaker 4: I think there was also mention that Carol and Russell

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Speaker 4: had had an agreement that they would both leave their

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Speaker 4: respective spouses, and she followed through on that and Russell

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Speaker 4: ended up staying with Robin. And so there was also

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Speaker 4: a sense that the families knew about the affair. They

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Speaker 4: all kind of knew Russell and Russell's family knew Carol,

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Speaker 4: but I don't think they were across the details of

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Speaker 4: the frequency of when they would go away together. And

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Speaker 4: on that last camping trip, Robin thought he had got along.

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Speaker 1: And so these camping trips, this wasn't the first trip

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Speaker 1: that Russell and Carol had taken together.

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Speaker 4: No, we heard from Russell's mate, one of his radio friends,

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Speaker 4: that Russell had told him earlier about the affair and

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Speaker 4: he was kind of led into that knowledge. He had

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Speaker 4: gone camping with them as well, But there were other

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Speaker 4: of those radio friends in the high frequency radio group

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Speaker 4: that Russell was a part of for a very long

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Speaker 4: time who had no idea, so he seemed to be

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Speaker 4: fairly discreet about it, and the family had reached some

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Speaker 4: sort of understanding and in the court. I think another

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Speaker 4: point is that we know so much about the private

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Speaker 4: lives of the victims, things that otherwise would have been

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Speaker 4: their business only, and that people may or may not

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Speaker 4: have various opinions or judgments on. But at the end

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Speaker 4: of the day, we only know what we heard in

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Speaker 4: evidence in a trial, and it seemed an added tragedy

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Speaker 4: on top of the loss of life to have this

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Speaker 4: kind of public knowledge of those private family matters. So

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Speaker 4: it was quite uncomfortable in that respect, but it did

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Speaker 4: draw a picture of what was going on at the time,

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Speaker 4: which was necessary to kind of understand why they were there,

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Speaker 4: who they were, and the loss of life and what

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Speaker 4: it represented to all the people that they left behind.

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Speaker 1: I just want to touch on something you mentioned, just

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Speaker 1: because people might be like, what do you mean by

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Speaker 1: a high frequency group.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so, Russell Hill was an amateur radio enthusiast and

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Speaker 4: for most of the rest of us, like myself, who

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Speaker 4: were unfamiliar with radio enthusiasms. Russell had a group of friends.

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Speaker 4: I think they were all men who lived in and

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Speaker 4: around Victoria, and they would chat most nights, if not

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Speaker 4: every night, around six pm, and they all built their

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Speaker 4: own radios. They had special licenses for operating the radios.

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Speaker 4: The talk wasn't limited to radios themselves, but it was

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Speaker 4: an interest that kind of united this group of older men,

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Speaker 4: and that was a whole world that was interesting and

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Speaker 4: new for me to see this madship that had grown

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Speaker 4: in that context.

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Speaker 1: And it's significant to this story because where Russell and

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Speaker 1: Carol went camping was so remote that there wasn't much

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Speaker 1: phone cell data. They were mainly relying on these radios

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Speaker 1: if they did need to contact anyone.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, Like the Wantageta Valley, like many other places

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Speaker 4: in the Alpine National Park, which is in Victoria's high country,

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Speaker 4: does not as a rule have mobile reception, so if

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Speaker 4: you want to have contact with the outside world, they

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Speaker 4: need a satellite phone or a high frequency radio. I

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Speaker 4: think a few of the radio friends were campers as well,

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Speaker 4: and they would use this six pm daily call to

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Speaker 4: check that everything was going well, and they said that

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Speaker 4: they used it in that capacity as well as for

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Speaker 4: social reasons. We also heard that Robin Russell's wife didn't

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Speaker 4: have the license that would have allowed her to have

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Speaker 4: a chat on the radio and to actually be using

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Speaker 4: the airwaves, but she was allowed to turn it on

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Speaker 4: and listen to it in terms of the licensing regulations,

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Speaker 4: and she would do that as well when Russell went

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Speaker 4: away on his camping chips to check that he was

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Speaker 4: going all right. She wouldn't necessarily listen to the whole thing,

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Speaker 4: but she'd turn it on here his voice, and then

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Speaker 4: she'd be comforted by that. So the radio did play

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Speaker 4: a huge part in this particular case.

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Speaker 1: Because Russell camped with Carol, but he also camped alone,

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Speaker 1: didn't he He was quite an experienced bushman.

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Speaker 4: Yes, he was familiar generally with the high country and

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Speaker 4: then specifically with the Wangata Valley. He'd worked there as

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Speaker 4: a logger, and he also was instrumental in cutting one

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Speaker 4: of the main tracks into the valley, the Ziga Spur track,

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Speaker 4: which was also figured in the narrative of the killings.

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Speaker 4: So he was familiar with this area and he really,

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Speaker 4: by all accounts, loved it. Loved being out in nature,

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Speaker 4: love the solitude and the tranquility of it, and he

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Speaker 4: also loved to bring the people he loved there. I

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Speaker 4: think he had brought Robin there before, and this last

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Speaker 4: trip he was there with Carol.

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Speaker 1: Because when we think about going into Australian bushland, especially camping,

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Speaker 1: you might still think bitchuman roads. You know, some nice

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Speaker 1: camping areas with potentially like a pit toilet. But this

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Speaker 1: was rugged as it comes, wasn't it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean that's part of my initial attraction to

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Speaker 4: the story was the physical landscape in which the crime occurred.

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Speaker 4: The valley itself is about three hundred and fifty kilometers

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Speaker 4: northeast of Melbourne where I'm sitting now, and it's surrounded

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Speaker 4: on all sides by very steep mountains, and they're the

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Speaker 4: kind of mountains you'd see in The Man from Snowy River.

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Speaker 4: The movie of The Man from Snowy River was actually

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Speaker 4: filmed not very far from the area that we're talking about,

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Speaker 4: So very steep sided mountains, mountain cattleman country, and the

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Speaker 4: valley itself is only accessible by foot, horse, helicopter or

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Speaker 4: four wheel drive, but you have to be quite proficient.

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Speaker 4: Had four wheel driving because the tracks leading into it

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Speaker 4: are graded like ski runs, and so they're extremely steep.

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Speaker 4: There've been a number of fatalities of people who weren't

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Speaker 4: that great drivers. And you need to know what you're

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Speaker 4: doing and have a pretty firm grasp on the weather

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Speaker 4: because it can be quite treacherous just to get there.

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Speaker 1: So on the day that Russell and Carol go camping,

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Speaker 1: Russell's wife thinks he's going on a solo trip. He

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Speaker 1: picks up Carol. They go into the valley, they start camping.

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Speaker 1: When did it become apparent that something might be going wrong.

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Speaker 4: They got there, the campsite was called Dry River Camp

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Speaker 4: or Bucks Camp. One of the other things I should

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Speaker 4: mention is that many of these places are not even

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Speaker 4: marked on maps, so they have different names, or they

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Speaker 4: use trails or tracks that are subject to weather changes,

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Speaker 4: and it's a really rugged terrain. So they get there,

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Speaker 4: they set up camp in this beautiful spot. It's a

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Speaker 4: wonderful spot that they chose near the river. And the

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Speaker 4: last call that Russell made on the radio was the

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Speaker 4: Friday night six pm call on the twentieth of March

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty. It wasn't unknown for one of the group

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Speaker 4: to miss a night here and there, that wasn't a

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Speaker 4: big deal. But when he failed to check in on

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Speaker 4: the Saturday the twenty first, and the Sunday the twenty second,

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Speaker 4: and the Monday the twenty third, the friends generally, and

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Speaker 4: a man named Robin Ashland specifically, who was the head

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Speaker 4: of the group, knew that something was not right. And

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Speaker 4: so in that sense, he would have known before most

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Speaker 4: of Russell's family that something was not right. Robin was

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Speaker 4: already across this because she had been checking in and

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Speaker 4: not hearing him for that very odd patch of three days.

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Speaker 4: And so they had a chat on the Monday, Robin

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Speaker 4: and he advised her to go to the police, and

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Speaker 4: she did that the next day.

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Speaker 1: So what did the police do next? Do They immediately

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Speaker 1: head to the campsite.

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Speaker 4: After Robin had gone into the station. We heard evidence

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Speaker 4: that they called Robin Ashland for exact directions where the

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Speaker 4: campsite was. There is then a slight lag in actually

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Speaker 4: arriving there first. That's, as I understand it, logistical because

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Speaker 4: it takes a degree of preparation to actually get to

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Speaker 4: that spot physically. But also you have to remember that

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Speaker 4: this was the exact time that Melbourne was going into

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Speaker 4: lockdown and the world was closing down. This is literally

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Speaker 4: when COVID hit. So everything is on fire. And what

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Speaker 4: had been explained to the police with the best knowledge

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Speaker 4: and information that Russell Hill's wife and friend had looked

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Speaker 4: for all intents and purposes like a missing person's case.

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Speaker 4: So that was the presumption when police arrived at the campsite,

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Speaker 4: and they got there in the twenty eighth of March,

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Speaker 4: so the killings happened on the twentieth of March, and

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Speaker 4: then Robin Hill goes to the police on the Tuesday,

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Speaker 4: which I think was the twenty fourth of March, and

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Speaker 4: then on the twenty eighth the police are there looking

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Speaker 4: at what appears to the naked eye to be really

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Speaker 4: strange scene of a burnt out campsite. So there's no

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Speaker 4: immediate evidence that something has gone wrong, that people have

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Speaker 4: been killed there. It looks strange and quite confronting because

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Speaker 4: there's this huge burnt out fire. The side of Russell's

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Speaker 4: white Land Cruiser has fire damage. The tent that housed

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Speaker 4: the outdoor camping toilet that they had is still standing.

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Speaker 4: All their equipment is there, all their food is there,

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Speaker 4: but their wallets are kind of strewn in the footwell.

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Speaker 4: The contents of the wallets have all been taken out,

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Speaker 4: so it might be a robbery, but it might be

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Speaker 4: something else. So there wasn't blood. They were looking at bodies.

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Speaker 4: They had a very confusing scene to process and the

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Speaker 4: immediate thinking was that these were campers who were gone missing.

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Speaker 4: They seemed to have vanished into thin air.

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Speaker 1: And at that point with the police only looking for Russell,

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Speaker 1: when they arrived, they realized they also had another missing person, Carol.

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Speaker 4: So immediately or soon after arriving, they could see her

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Speaker 4: wallet with her ID in it, her Medicare card was,

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Speaker 4: their driver's license was there, and there was clearly the

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Speaker 4: equipment of two people. Her handbag there's two straw hats,

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Speaker 4: two sets of runners, So there was that. And then

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Speaker 4: in that week when Carol Clay's family report her missing,

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Speaker 4: is that kind of additional knowledge that her family gives

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Speaker 4: the police that she is probably with Russell.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, when the police arrives, they can see that the

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Speaker 1: scene looks strange and immediately suspicious. Do they jump immediately

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Speaker 1: to foul play because you've got two people here who

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Speaker 1: they discover are having an affair. I can imagine that

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Speaker 1: they would go down that line of thinking first that

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Speaker 1: potentially they've run away together and they're trying to make

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Speaker 1: out to their families like they've run away. Was that

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Speaker 1: something that was discussed, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think early on it was one of the potential

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Speaker 4: lines of inquiry, and then when there was nothing really

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Speaker 4: to justify that in terms of bank statements or phone records,

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Speaker 4: they moved on to this last in the bush or

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Speaker 4: death by misadventure in the bush, or missing somewhere after

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Speaker 4: something went wrong on a bushwalk. And that high country

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Speaker 4: terrain has seen experienced ampers go missing without a trace,

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Speaker 4: so that would have been part of the thinking as well.

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Speaker 4: And the early searches were looking for live people who

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Speaker 4: had straight away from the path, which is extremely easy

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Speaker 4: to do in this terrain where the bush is so

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Speaker 4: dense that it's difficult to move through it quickly. It's

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Speaker 4: difficult to move through it at all. In some places

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Speaker 4: you can lose the track even a meter away from

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Speaker 4: the track. And you know, I write for a living,

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Speaker 4: but it's difficult to explain with words unless you're looking

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Speaker 4: at it. The sheer density of this surrounding bush. So

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Speaker 4: missing person in the bush would have been I think,

295
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Speaker 4: for a time the most logical conclusion.

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Speaker 1: There have been reports, and even in researching this story,

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Speaker 1: I've seen lots of chatter about potential strange people that

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Speaker 1: have been seen in this area. One that pops up

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Speaker 1: a lot is the Button Man.

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Speaker 4: So during the trial we heard from the informant, who

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Speaker 4: was Detective Sergeant Brett Florence, that this particular case generated

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Speaker 4: a notably high volume of information coming through crime stoppers.

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Speaker 4: And in those early months the police were looking at

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Speaker 4: a number of possible theories and eliminating a number of

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Speaker 4: potential suspects, each of whom was eventually cleared of any involvement.

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Speaker 4: And so in the online forums and in the newspapers

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Speaker 4: early on, popular speculation began to cluster around that person

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Speaker 4: called the button Man. He was described in different ways.

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Speaker 4: He's a white guy around seventy. They call him a loner, oddball,

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Speaker 4: gun bushman. And what is true is that he lives

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Speaker 4: in the High for months at a time at a

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Speaker 4: particular campsite, perpetually camping, and he gathers deer antlers to

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Speaker 4: slice into dear plugs that resemble buttons, and various campers,

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Speaker 4: including some that i've spoken to when I was up there,

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Speaker 4: have had run into with him. Generally they describe him

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Speaker 4: as kind of like socially a bit weird sort of vibe,

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Speaker 4: but not dangerous or particular scary. But then we hear

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Speaker 4: all of these stories that he just materializes at the

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Speaker 4: campsite and you don't know he's there, or he remains

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Speaker 4: hidden and just kind of pops up, spooking hunters who

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Speaker 4: thought they had been alone, or that campers get home

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Speaker 4: and they find a photo of themselves sleeping on their

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Speaker 4: camera that he might have took. So all of that reading,

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Speaker 4: I initially thought that was some sort of urban myth

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Speaker 4: or campfire ghost story. And then I read that the

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Speaker 4: police had actually found him and interviewed him for this

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Speaker 4: investigation and cleared him of any involvement.

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Speaker 1: So the button Man's cleared. Yes, were police able to

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Speaker 1: find anything in tracking the phones or devices. We know

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Speaker 1: that they've got patchy phone reception, but there was a

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Speaker 1: little bit of reception.

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Speaker 4: There was a little bit of reception. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 4: So one of the early pieces of evidence was through

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Speaker 4: phone analysis of Russell Hill's phone, and it was moving

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Speaker 4: along the Great Alpine Road at a particular time on

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Speaker 4: the morning of the twenty first of March, the Saturday morning,

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Speaker 4: so there was enough analysis for that to be pinpointed.

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Speaker 4: The phones were never.

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Speaker 1: Found, there were cameras up on one of the roads

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Speaker 1: into the valley that police were able to use to

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Speaker 1: track vehicles, and that actually became pretty much vital to

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Speaker 1: their investigation. Can you describe that why it became so important.

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Speaker 4: So this landscape, this terrain happens to be where one

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Speaker 4: of the best ski resorts in Victoria is located. And

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Speaker 4: one of the most important early breakthroughs was the CCTV

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Speaker 4: on Mount Hawtham, which I think is used to enforce

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Speaker 4: the resort's entry fee and has number plate recognition. And

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Speaker 4: so just before ten am on the twenty first of March,

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Speaker 4: it filmed Greg Linn driving his niece on patrol down

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Speaker 4: the Great Alpine Road and so that, in combination with

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Speaker 4: the phone analysis that showed Russell Hill's phone was also

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Speaker 4: traveling down that road at that time, was one of

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Speaker 4: the first solid pieces of evidence that turned police's mind

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Speaker 4: to greglin as the princesspect in this case.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jimmy Bath.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Sarah Krasnasdin about the missing campus trial.

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Speaker 1: Up next, Greg Lynn tells detectives his side of the story.

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Speaker 1: Did they get onto that clue and Greg Lynn is

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Speaker 1: a possible suspect fairly quickly? Because that feels like quite

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Speaker 1: intricate police work.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it is so. Yeah, I mean I think in

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Speaker 4: the sum of things, it was fairly quickly. Once they

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Speaker 4: had eliminated all other kind of case theories, and the

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Speaker 4: footage showed twelve different cars traveling through that area at

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Speaker 4: that time, it was not super unusual. There are so

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Speaker 4: many witnesses in this case, specifically, and witnesses who weren't

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Speaker 4: called because all that COVID buzz was in the air,

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Speaker 4: and people were thinking, Okay, well, maybe this is the

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Speaker 4: last time I can get a weekend away here. Maybe

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Speaker 4: they're going to close the parks, workers shutting down. We

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Speaker 4: might as well have out. So there was nothing inherently

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Speaker 4: suspicious about being on the road at that time. But

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Speaker 4: Lind's carr was the only one on the road at

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Speaker 4: the specific time that Russell Hill's phone was pinpointed, and

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Speaker 4: then after the passage of some time, he was the

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Speaker 4: only one who hadn't contacted the police. To explain who

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Speaker 4: they were and where they were going. So from about

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Speaker 4: mid twenty twenty they were zeroing in on Redlin.

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Speaker 1: Can you give us some background on who Greg Limb

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Speaker 1: was in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 4: So we hear a lot, and I think it's because

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Speaker 4: it's quite unusual that he's a pilot, a commercial pilot.

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Speaker 4: And I think also just earlier I said, we know

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Speaker 4: so much about the lives of the victims in trials

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Speaker 4: like this, but we know comparatively little about the private

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Speaker 4: life of the accused. And that's just part of how

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Speaker 4: our system is structured. It's related to the presumption of

388
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Speaker 4: inn since, but it's just something that doesn't sit particularly

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Speaker 4: well in terms of fairness, not legally defined that people

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Speaker 4: who had no choice in the matter have their lives

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Speaker 4: on view while the person who created this tragedy gets

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Speaker 4: to retain a measure of privacy. We'll find out a

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Speaker 4: bit more about who he is and who he was

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Speaker 4: at his sentencing hearing, when more personal information is presented

395
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Speaker 4: to the court, psychological information about his personality, makeup, and

396
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Speaker 4: his experience and background. But at the moment we still

397
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Speaker 4: have kind of a fairly vague picture of him. He's

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Speaker 4: fifty seven. He was most recently working for jet Star.

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Speaker 4: He is married to a woman called Melanie Lynn, who

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Speaker 4: is a flight attendant, and she's also the stepmother to

401
00:25:58,502 --> 00:26:01,942
Speaker 4: his two sons from an earlier marriage to Lisa Lynn,

402
00:26:02,022 --> 00:26:05,582
Speaker 4: who died in nineteen ninety nine. Linn had wanted to

403
00:26:05,662 --> 00:26:08,862
Speaker 4: be a fighter pilot initially, and he joined the Air

404
00:26:08,902 --> 00:26:13,462
Speaker 4: Force in the mid nineties as a cadet. His performance

405
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Speaker 4: there did not seem to match his aspirations, and so

406
00:26:17,982 --> 00:26:20,622
Speaker 4: far as he was not selected for the elite stream,

407
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Speaker 4: so he became then a commercial pilot, first in Tasmania

408
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Speaker 4: and then with Anset, and when Ansett collapsed around two

409
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Speaker 4: thousand and one, he was hired by Qatar Airlines and

410
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Speaker 4: he returned to a showy on two thousand and seven

411
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Speaker 4: working for jest Star. I think his last role was

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Speaker 4: as a training captain. We know that he held a

413
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Speaker 4: firearms license, that he owns more guns and knives than

414
00:26:50,062 --> 00:26:52,662
Speaker 4: were admitted into evidence at the trial before the jury,

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Speaker 4: and that he's a keen camper and hunter.

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Speaker 1: So police have their eye on him, and in July

417
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Speaker 1: twenty twenty they turn up in his doorstep, not to

418
00:27:02,582 --> 00:27:05,822
Speaker 1: arrest him though, just to chat what was the purpose

419
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Speaker 1: of that visit.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, midway through June to actives pull up at

421
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Speaker 4: his home in the Melon suburb of Carolina Springs. Those

422
00:27:16,462 --> 00:27:21,702
Speaker 4: detectives are Bret Florence and Habby Justin. This is the

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Speaker 4: home where Lynn lives with his wife, Melanie and his kids.

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Speaker 4: When the police arrive, they see that the Nissan that

425
00:27:33,782 --> 00:27:37,062
Speaker 4: they've seen on the camera, the Nissan Patrol, which was

426
00:27:37,702 --> 00:27:40,902
Speaker 4: dark blue on the camera, has changed color since it

427
00:27:41,142 --> 00:27:46,622
Speaker 4: was filmed on Mount Hotham is now a tan color.

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Speaker 4: So they go in. They speak with him in his kitchen,

429
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Speaker 4: and what they hear confirms their suspicions about his privacy

430
00:27:58,782 --> 00:28:01,942
Speaker 4: as the suspect. And so they spend the next few

431
00:28:01,982 --> 00:28:06,422
Speaker 4: months speaking with witnesses and making various searches in the

432
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Speaker 4: high country I think for human remains, could have her

433
00:28:09,702 --> 00:28:12,822
Speaker 4: dogs are used up point and all of that time

434
00:28:12,862 --> 00:28:18,542
Speaker 4: they're gathering further information about Greg Lynn, until at the

435
00:28:18,582 --> 00:28:21,782
Speaker 4: start of December in twenty twenty, they're issued with the

436
00:28:21,782 --> 00:28:25,342
Speaker 4: warrants that allow him to intercept his phone calls and

437
00:28:25,382 --> 00:28:28,862
Speaker 4: play surveillance devices in his home and in that four

438
00:28:28,902 --> 00:28:29,462
Speaker 4: World drive.

439
00:28:30,462 --> 00:28:34,222
Speaker 1: Well, it takes him another sixteen months to actually arrest him.

440
00:28:34,262 --> 00:28:37,382
Speaker 1: That's insane. So they spent that whole time just monitoring

441
00:28:37,462 --> 00:28:39,062
Speaker 1: him before they actually pounced.

442
00:28:39,742 --> 00:28:44,062
Speaker 4: They were listening for over eleven months and they made

443
00:28:44,782 --> 00:28:49,262
Speaker 4: at least five thousand different recordings. That's a literal five thousand.

444
00:28:49,902 --> 00:28:50,982
Speaker 1: That's insane.

445
00:28:51,182 --> 00:28:56,902
Speaker 4: So they are listening to him for something that can

446
00:28:56,942 --> 00:29:00,942
Speaker 4: be submitted in evidence. He spoke frequently to himself, which

447
00:29:01,022 --> 00:29:05,742
Speaker 4: was of some aid. The detective who was on those

448
00:29:05,782 --> 00:29:09,622
Speaker 4: intercepts listening was Daniel Passingham, and he made a note

449
00:29:09,702 --> 00:29:16,702
Speaker 4: at one point characterizing what he heard as narcissistic, misogynistic, racist,

450
00:29:16,902 --> 00:29:20,742
Speaker 4: and chauvinistic to characterize the general tenor of what he

451
00:29:20,822 --> 00:29:24,542
Speaker 4: was hearing. None of that on its own is an

452
00:29:24,582 --> 00:29:27,662
Speaker 4: offense per se. But they were getting a picture of

453
00:29:27,742 --> 00:29:29,942
Speaker 4: him and trying to compile the case against him so

454
00:29:30,022 --> 00:29:31,942
Speaker 4: that they could arrest him in charge him.

455
00:29:32,662 --> 00:29:36,182
Speaker 1: When they finally did arrest him, what happened. Did he talk?

456
00:29:36,702 --> 00:29:38,622
Speaker 1: Was he charged immediately? What did that look like?

457
00:29:39,582 --> 00:29:42,702
Speaker 4: Well, that story is also interesting on itself. So in

458
00:29:42,822 --> 00:29:46,982
Speaker 4: early November twenty twenty one, now the police had enough

459
00:29:47,022 --> 00:29:51,542
Speaker 4: information that they strategically released some of it to the

460
00:29:51,582 --> 00:29:55,462
Speaker 4: media to the effect that they were closing in on

461
00:29:55,502 --> 00:30:00,662
Speaker 4: a particular suspect, and that a dark blue four wheel

462
00:30:00,862 --> 00:30:06,862
Speaker 4: drive Nissan Patrol had been captured on cameras and that

463
00:30:07,462 --> 00:30:11,142
Speaker 4: they were in a good position to sw the case.

464
00:30:11,982 --> 00:30:14,822
Speaker 4: So that was a deliberate kind of strategy to put

465
00:30:14,862 --> 00:30:19,502
Speaker 4: pressure on reg Lynn specifically, and it worked. So on

466
00:30:19,542 --> 00:30:23,342
Speaker 4: the twenty second of November, not very long after that

467
00:30:23,422 --> 00:30:26,262
Speaker 4: information was all over the media. Sixty minutes and in

468
00:30:26,342 --> 00:30:32,462
Speaker 4: various newspapers. The surveillance devices showed Lynn heading back to

469
00:30:32,462 --> 00:30:36,102
Speaker 4: the high Country from his home in Caroline Springs with

470
00:30:37,342 --> 00:30:42,262
Speaker 4: at least one shotgun, and that he appeared to be

471
00:30:42,582 --> 00:30:46,782
Speaker 4: mentally distressed, crying, talking about himself in the past, tense

472
00:30:46,982 --> 00:30:49,622
Speaker 4: out loud on his own in the car, and the

473
00:30:49,662 --> 00:30:53,422
Speaker 4: self talk was sufficiently concerning that they feared that he

474
00:30:53,542 --> 00:30:57,582
Speaker 4: might self harm, and so they arrested him and then

475
00:30:57,582 --> 00:30:59,902
Speaker 4: they took him to the nearest police station, which was

476
00:30:59,902 --> 00:31:03,102
Speaker 4: in Sale, which is a country police station about two

477
00:31:03,142 --> 00:31:05,062
Speaker 4: and a half hours east of Melbourne.

478
00:31:05,422 --> 00:31:06,502
Speaker 1: And what happened there.

479
00:31:07,502 --> 00:31:10,782
Speaker 4: He spends three days in the police station at Sale.

480
00:31:12,222 --> 00:31:16,062
Speaker 4: It's freezing in the police station. They have a heating problem,

481
00:31:16,422 --> 00:31:22,502
Speaker 4: and he is given blankets, he's showered he's fed, and

482
00:31:23,142 --> 00:31:26,342
Speaker 4: he's not interviewed for three continuous days. He's interviewed over

483
00:31:26,382 --> 00:31:30,702
Speaker 4: a number of hours each day by the detectives passing

484
00:31:30,782 --> 00:31:35,142
Speaker 4: him in Florence. He spent the first two days refusing

485
00:31:35,182 --> 00:31:38,302
Speaker 4: to answer the questions put to him. I mean, I

486
00:31:38,302 --> 00:31:40,982
Speaker 4: think his first question to them was why am I here?

487
00:31:41,942 --> 00:31:44,942
Speaker 4: He spoke to a legal aid judy lawyer who had

488
00:31:44,982 --> 00:31:47,382
Speaker 4: advised him to make no comment, and he does have

489
00:31:47,502 --> 00:31:50,662
Speaker 4: that right to silence, and so that seemed to be

490
00:31:51,582 --> 00:31:55,062
Speaker 4: what he was doing for the first two days, and

491
00:31:55,102 --> 00:31:58,182
Speaker 4: the police pushed back on that by saying it's making

492
00:31:58,222 --> 00:32:00,942
Speaker 4: it difficult for them to get an explanation. This is

493
00:32:00,982 --> 00:32:05,342
Speaker 4: his chance to explain the story, and so eventually greg

494
00:32:05,422 --> 00:32:08,942
Speaker 4: Lynn says that he wants to give what he called

495
00:32:09,142 --> 00:32:13,102
Speaker 4: a pathway to resolution. He then told them his version

496
00:32:13,462 --> 00:32:15,702
Speaker 4: of what had occurred on the night of the twentieth

497
00:32:15,742 --> 00:32:19,742
Speaker 4: of March when Hill and Clay died, and he also

498
00:32:19,862 --> 00:32:22,502
Speaker 4: told them where they could find what was left of

499
00:32:22,542 --> 00:32:27,502
Speaker 4: their bodies. At the conclusion of that interview, and from

500
00:32:27,542 --> 00:32:32,182
Speaker 4: listening to it and watching it, it seems that he

501
00:32:33,102 --> 00:32:37,302
Speaker 4: was slightly surprised by this. He was told by Detective

502
00:32:37,382 --> 00:32:40,102
Speaker 4: Lawrence that he would be charged with the murder of

503
00:32:40,182 --> 00:32:42,262
Speaker 4: Russell Hill and with the murder of Carol Clay.

504
00:32:43,382 --> 00:32:49,422
Speaker 1: That admission that he gave was incredibly detailed. Yes, can

505
00:32:49,462 --> 00:32:52,022
Speaker 1: you give us an overview of what he said happened

506
00:32:52,262 --> 00:32:53,502
Speaker 1: to Hill and Clay.

507
00:32:54,102 --> 00:32:57,582
Speaker 4: So the two schools have thought about this in terms

508
00:32:57,582 --> 00:33:02,302
Speaker 4: of trial argument or advocacy. The first one is that

509
00:33:02,982 --> 00:33:07,022
Speaker 4: it's a bit unusual for a suspect to give a

510
00:33:07,102 --> 00:33:11,662
Speaker 4: record of interview that so closely matches the available evidence.

511
00:33:12,822 --> 00:33:16,502
Speaker 4: On the other hand, it's highly unusual to have a

512
00:33:16,542 --> 00:33:21,822
Speaker 4: commercial pilot charged with two murders and to have eighteen

513
00:33:21,902 --> 00:33:26,622
Speaker 4: months as the only living witness to think about a

514
00:33:26,662 --> 00:33:32,502
Speaker 4: story that matches the available evidence. His story and the

515
00:33:32,542 --> 00:33:35,502
Speaker 4: first time I heard it, I thought it couldn't possibly

516
00:33:35,582 --> 00:33:40,942
Speaker 4: be true because it seemed to stretch the imagination incredibly.

517
00:33:41,742 --> 00:33:45,342
Speaker 4: Lynn said that on the twentieth of March he was

518
00:33:45,462 --> 00:33:49,262
Speaker 4: also camping at Bucks Camp and he got into a

519
00:33:49,302 --> 00:33:54,062
Speaker 4: dispute with Hill over Hill's use of the drone. After

520
00:33:54,182 --> 00:33:59,502
Speaker 4: exchanging pleasantries with the couple in the morning, he was

521
00:33:59,622 --> 00:34:03,622
Speaker 4: slightly taken aback that they were camped fairly close to

522
00:34:03,662 --> 00:34:06,342
Speaker 4: his site, not super close, but he said he got

523
00:34:06,382 --> 00:34:10,542
Speaker 4: over that, and they exchanged pleasantries and he went off hunting.

524
00:34:10,542 --> 00:34:14,382
Speaker 4: When he came back, he finds this drone over him,

525
00:34:14,902 --> 00:34:20,942
Speaker 4: taking footage of him, and that this was so invasive

526
00:34:21,382 --> 00:34:26,062
Speaker 4: that it led to an argument with Russell Hill. Greg

527
00:34:26,142 --> 00:34:29,742
Speaker 4: Lynn goes back to his campsite, has his dinner, opens

528
00:34:29,822 --> 00:34:35,302
Speaker 4: the doors of his four wheel drive blasts music loudly.

529
00:34:35,462 --> 00:34:39,142
Speaker 4: By this point, it's between nine and ten, and Russell

530
00:34:39,182 --> 00:34:43,022
Speaker 4: and Carol are in their tent. Anyone who's at gun camping,

531
00:34:43,142 --> 00:34:45,782
Speaker 4: it's fairly late, it's dark. This is a couple in

532
00:34:45,822 --> 00:34:49,822
Speaker 4: their seventies there in bed, and he's blasting music. The

533
00:34:49,822 --> 00:34:52,422
Speaker 4: way he explained that was he was rude to me,

534
00:34:52,582 --> 00:34:55,622
Speaker 4: so I could be rude back, and he also said

535
00:34:55,622 --> 00:34:59,542
Speaker 4: it was fairly childish. Fine. As he's having his dinner

536
00:34:59,982 --> 00:35:03,142
Speaker 4: with the music blaring, he says that. Russell Hill goes

537
00:35:03,222 --> 00:35:07,662
Speaker 4: into his four wheel drive, takes one of his shotguns

538
00:35:08,702 --> 00:35:12,902
Speaker 4: and the ammunition to load it, and fires it into

539
00:35:12,942 --> 00:35:16,982
Speaker 4: the air and takes it back to his campsite. So

540
00:35:17,102 --> 00:35:20,542
Speaker 4: greg Lynn follows him. There's a tussle over the gun

541
00:35:20,702 --> 00:35:24,462
Speaker 4: as he tries to get it back off Russell. In

542
00:35:24,502 --> 00:35:29,302
Speaker 4: the process, it accidentally discharges with Russell's finger on the trigger,

543
00:35:30,142 --> 00:35:33,182
Speaker 4: killing Carol Clay with a single shot to the head

544
00:35:33,542 --> 00:35:38,942
Speaker 4: as she's cowering behind Russell's car. Then Gregland said that

545
00:35:39,902 --> 00:35:44,262
Speaker 4: Russell was so enraged by this that he got a

546
00:35:44,342 --> 00:35:47,662
Speaker 4: kitchen knife and came towards greg Lynn with the knife.

547
00:35:48,142 --> 00:35:53,022
Speaker 4: They then tussled over that. Russell Hill then fell on

548
00:35:53,182 --> 00:35:58,822
Speaker 4: his own knife, stabbing himself through the chest and died instantly.

549
00:35:59,502 --> 00:36:04,222
Speaker 4: Greg Lynn then said he panicked. He thought that it

550
00:36:04,262 --> 00:36:09,622
Speaker 4: would look as though those two accidental deaths were deliberate,

551
00:36:09,862 --> 00:36:13,182
Speaker 4: and that they would derail the rest of his life

552
00:36:13,182 --> 00:36:16,422
Speaker 4: and everything that had given it, meaning his family, his

553
00:36:16,542 --> 00:36:20,022
Speaker 4: capacity to work as a pilot, and various gun clubs

554
00:36:20,142 --> 00:36:24,382
Speaker 4: or sports clubs that he had recently joined. So he

555
00:36:24,542 --> 00:36:27,702
Speaker 4: thought the only thing to do was to eliminate the evidence.

556
00:36:27,862 --> 00:36:32,382
Speaker 4: He admitted to burning the items that had blood on them,

557
00:36:32,902 --> 00:36:35,222
Speaker 4: to wiping blood off of the car as much as

558
00:36:35,222 --> 00:36:39,102
Speaker 4: you could see it, and then putting the bodies into

559
00:36:39,262 --> 00:36:42,782
Speaker 4: the trailer on the back of his car and driving

560
00:36:42,822 --> 00:36:45,422
Speaker 4: them through the night on the Great Alpine Road to

561
00:36:45,542 --> 00:36:48,582
Speaker 4: hide them at a site on the other side of

562
00:36:48,662 --> 00:36:51,582
Speaker 4: the valley near a town called Dargo.

563
00:36:51,662 --> 00:36:54,182
Speaker 1: And he says that he actually went back to the

564
00:36:54,222 --> 00:36:56,942
Speaker 1: bodies several months later, doesn't he? What did he do

565
00:36:57,142 --> 00:36:57,422
Speaker 1: that for?

566
00:36:58,302 --> 00:37:02,622
Speaker 4: We heard that he went back twice. So immediately after

567
00:37:02,662 --> 00:37:05,462
Speaker 4: the killing, Greg Lynn went back to Melbourne and we

568
00:37:05,542 --> 00:37:09,062
Speaker 4: went down into lockdown, so he had no opportunity to

569
00:37:09,102 --> 00:37:11,982
Speaker 4: go back and check on the bodies, or to go

570
00:37:12,062 --> 00:37:16,022
Speaker 4: back and do anything at all and fly under the radar.

571
00:37:16,742 --> 00:37:18,462
Speaker 4: So as soon as we had a break in that

572
00:37:18,542 --> 00:37:21,462
Speaker 4: first lockdown, which I think was May, he went back

573
00:37:21,502 --> 00:37:25,102
Speaker 4: to the site where he had buried them under some

574
00:37:25,422 --> 00:37:29,262
Speaker 4: sticks and logs. He said to avoid the wild dogs

575
00:37:29,262 --> 00:37:32,982
Speaker 4: and other animals that are in this area. They had

576
00:37:32,982 --> 00:37:39,062
Speaker 4: not been substantially disturbed either by animals or humans. We

577
00:37:39,102 --> 00:37:41,702
Speaker 4: then went back into lockdown. He returned from that trip,

578
00:37:41,862 --> 00:37:46,302
Speaker 4: and then when there was the next break, he had

579
00:37:46,382 --> 00:37:50,862
Speaker 4: started to pick up on enough details, either legitimately or

580
00:37:50,902 --> 00:37:55,142
Speaker 4: through his own fears, that he thought that he had

581
00:37:55,182 --> 00:37:58,262
Speaker 4: no other options kind of how he phrased it, than

582
00:37:58,302 --> 00:38:03,782
Speaker 4: to return to that area and eliminate the only remaining evidence,

583
00:38:03,822 --> 00:38:08,342
Speaker 4: which was their bodies. He spent all night burning them

584
00:38:09,222 --> 00:38:14,542
Speaker 4: I think was twelve hours. He reduced them into tiny

585
00:38:14,582 --> 00:38:18,222
Speaker 4: bone fragments and a few other remaining pieces of physical evidence,

586
00:38:18,582 --> 00:38:20,902
Speaker 4: and then he hid the remains in a root ball hole,

587
00:38:21,302 --> 00:38:23,702
Speaker 4: which is the hole in the ground left when a

588
00:38:23,742 --> 00:38:27,262
Speaker 4: tree falls over, so all of the space taken up

589
00:38:27,262 --> 00:38:31,822
Speaker 4: by its roots. He piles all that debris into the

590
00:38:31,902 --> 00:38:35,902
Speaker 4: root ball hole and he considers that he has, in

591
00:38:35,942 --> 00:38:37,262
Speaker 4: his words, disappeared.

592
00:38:37,862 --> 00:38:41,822
Speaker 1: Were the police able to recover those remains what was left?

593
00:38:42,062 --> 00:38:44,902
Speaker 4: They were. We heard from a number of crime scene

594
00:38:44,982 --> 00:38:49,622
Speaker 4: specialists about the nature of their work, and it has

595
00:38:49,662 --> 00:38:54,822
Speaker 4: a quiet heroism that is very understated and easily missed.

596
00:38:55,702 --> 00:39:01,022
Speaker 4: There's a forensic anthropologist who doesn't tell you the cause

597
00:39:01,062 --> 00:39:04,982
Speaker 4: of death, but can read these bone fragments to tell

598
00:39:05,062 --> 00:39:09,462
Speaker 4: you what information they hold. So the forensic anthropologist is

599
00:39:09,462 --> 00:39:12,022
Speaker 4: not going to give you a narrow of about causes.

600
00:39:12,822 --> 00:39:15,342
Speaker 4: But in this case, her name is doctor Soren Blau,

601
00:39:15,422 --> 00:39:20,382
Speaker 4: and she can say these two tiny pieces of cranial

602
00:39:20,502 --> 00:39:25,062
Speaker 4: bone had DNA that was consistent with Carol Clay's DNA.

603
00:39:25,662 --> 00:39:31,342
Speaker 4: They show tiny fragments of material that are consistent with

604
00:39:31,542 --> 00:39:34,102
Speaker 4: being close to a piece of metal like a bullet,

605
00:39:34,702 --> 00:39:38,662
Speaker 4: And so she is just giving the facts that are

606
00:39:38,902 --> 00:39:41,902
Speaker 4: part of her work. She was an extremely compelling witness.

607
00:39:42,502 --> 00:39:45,982
Speaker 4: We heard from a forensic odontologist who is a dentist

608
00:39:46,102 --> 00:39:53,262
Speaker 4: who works in legal matters about the identification of dental remains.

609
00:39:53,302 --> 00:39:57,382
Speaker 4: There was a partial bridge that was found to be russels,

610
00:39:58,342 --> 00:40:01,142
Speaker 4: and we heard from a forensic entomologist who's an insects

611
00:40:01,182 --> 00:40:07,182
Speaker 4: specialist about the blowfly maggot casings that were found and

612
00:40:07,222 --> 00:40:09,902
Speaker 4: how they can actually be used as little clocks or

613
00:40:09,902 --> 00:40:14,622
Speaker 4: indication about timing because they eat human remains and then

614
00:40:14,702 --> 00:40:19,062
Speaker 4: they burrow underground, so that's another way of dating the material.

615
00:40:19,942 --> 00:40:24,222
Speaker 4: But it's extremely confronting to see what is twenty one

616
00:40:24,262 --> 00:40:30,262
Speaker 4: hundred tiny bone fragments of two people reduced to almost dust,

617
00:40:30,622 --> 00:40:34,862
Speaker 4: a small charred watch face, and a small piece of

618
00:40:35,422 --> 00:40:39,062
Speaker 4: dental bridge. And so the work that they do, the

619
00:40:39,102 --> 00:40:41,822
Speaker 4: care with which they do it, and the attention that

620
00:40:41,902 --> 00:40:45,222
Speaker 4: they gave to finding these almost indiscernible things in this

621
00:40:45,422 --> 00:40:50,782
Speaker 4: vast bush area was a nice counterbalance to just how

622
00:40:50,902 --> 00:40:53,542
Speaker 4: dark the loss of life was in this case.

623
00:40:54,902 --> 00:40:57,782
Speaker 1: That's such a good point to bring up the fact

624
00:40:57,822 --> 00:41:01,222
Speaker 1: that for the family sitting in that courtroom seeing what

625
00:41:01,422 --> 00:41:05,102
Speaker 1: was left of their loved ones, can only imagine how

626
00:41:05,142 --> 00:41:06,022
Speaker 1: horrible that must be.

627
00:41:06,942 --> 00:41:10,062
Speaker 4: Each one of these tiny fragments is handled with such

628
00:41:10,142 --> 00:41:14,582
Speaker 4: care and taken so seriously and restored to the dignity

629
00:41:14,622 --> 00:41:20,222
Speaker 4: that I think each human life deserves. It's unexpectedly harrowing

630
00:41:20,422 --> 00:41:23,622
Speaker 4: but also unexpectedly moving when you hear the forensic specialists

631
00:41:23,622 --> 00:41:24,462
Speaker 4: talk about their work.

632
00:41:36,782 --> 00:41:41,302
Speaker 1: So during the trial, Linni is charged with two murders,

633
00:41:42,182 --> 00:41:45,062
Speaker 1: He's given this account of what he says happened, and

634
00:41:45,102 --> 00:41:50,022
Speaker 1: it's obviously the prosecution's job to disprove that and poke

635
00:41:50,062 --> 00:41:52,302
Speaker 1: holes in that. What were the biggest holes they were

636
00:41:52,342 --> 00:41:54,302
Speaker 1: able to show the court.

637
00:41:55,702 --> 00:42:01,262
Speaker 4: They were tasked kind of with this idea that just

638
00:42:01,302 --> 00:42:05,062
Speaker 4: because he was truthful about some things, the jury shouldn't

639
00:42:05,102 --> 00:42:08,982
Speaker 4: necessarily assume and in this case it would be unwise

640
00:42:09,062 --> 00:42:12,902
Speaker 4: to assume that he was truthful about everything. Their task

641
00:42:13,022 --> 00:42:19,582
Speaker 4: was to show that he intentionally acted twice to deliberately

642
00:42:19,982 --> 00:42:25,142
Speaker 4: kill each of Russell Hill and Carol Clay. They were

643
00:42:25,262 --> 00:42:31,062
Speaker 4: up against it because of Greglin's admittedly deliberate destruction of

644
00:42:31,582 --> 00:42:35,422
Speaker 4: evidence that could aid in constructing the story that took place.

645
00:42:36,182 --> 00:42:38,702
Speaker 4: As I mentioned, the phones were missing. He said he

646
00:42:38,742 --> 00:42:40,782
Speaker 4: took them and he threw them in the Rose River.

647
00:42:41,862 --> 00:42:47,142
Speaker 4: The drone was missing, and so the prosecution were not

648
00:42:47,462 --> 00:42:52,742
Speaker 4: able to tell a story in the fullness of its details,

649
00:42:53,222 --> 00:42:58,702
Speaker 4: provable beyond reasonable doubt. But they did not go with

650
00:42:59,102 --> 00:43:04,062
Speaker 4: the defense narrative of an accidental struggle in which Carol

651
00:43:04,262 --> 00:43:09,142
Speaker 4: was killed first and Russell was killed second. They said

652
00:43:09,182 --> 00:43:14,582
Speaker 4: that Ussell Hill was probably killed first and in circumstances

653
00:43:14,622 --> 00:43:18,622
Speaker 4: that were comprised murder, and that Carol Clay was deliberately

654
00:43:18,702 --> 00:43:21,942
Speaker 4: killed second because she had witnessed what had happened. That

655
00:43:22,022 --> 00:43:27,462
Speaker 4: they were killed because of this dispute over whatever it

656
00:43:27,622 --> 00:43:30,662
Speaker 4: was that had been captured by Russell Hill on his phone.

657
00:43:31,502 --> 00:43:34,662
Speaker 4: And again what that is is a matter of speculation

658
00:43:34,782 --> 00:43:37,822
Speaker 4: because we do not have the evidence. It could have

659
00:43:37,942 --> 00:43:41,422
Speaker 4: been hunting too close to the campsite. It could have

660
00:43:41,542 --> 00:43:45,582
Speaker 4: been And I still don't understand why this wasn't pinpointed

661
00:43:46,142 --> 00:43:49,942
Speaker 4: as going to motive. I'll just say that you don't

662
00:43:49,982 --> 00:43:52,662
Speaker 4: need to prove motive as part of the elements of murder,

663
00:43:53,102 --> 00:43:56,822
Speaker 4: but it helps persuade a jury about those elements because

664
00:43:56,822 --> 00:44:01,782
Speaker 4: they're put in a context of human action. Greg Lynn,

665
00:44:01,822 --> 00:44:04,782
Speaker 4: and telling this story about how Russell came and took

666
00:44:04,822 --> 00:44:09,182
Speaker 4: the gun from his car, said that the guns were unsecured,

667
00:44:09,502 --> 00:44:14,902
Speaker 4: as was the ammunition, and that having unsecured guns and

668
00:44:14,982 --> 00:44:19,742
Speaker 4: ammunition is a violation of the Firearms Code, and that

669
00:44:19,982 --> 00:44:26,702
Speaker 4: any violation about firearms would have been sufficient to disqualify

670
00:44:26,782 --> 00:44:29,542
Speaker 4: him from getting the security clearance required to be a

671
00:44:29,582 --> 00:44:33,782
Speaker 4: pilot and he would be unable to work. So then

672
00:44:33,902 --> 00:44:36,822
Speaker 4: that made me think that if there was a campsite

673
00:44:36,902 --> 00:44:40,622
Speaker 4: dispute about anything in the morning, and we know that

674
00:44:40,742 --> 00:44:44,302
Speaker 4: Russell Hill was particularly wary about guns because he had

675
00:44:44,342 --> 00:44:48,182
Speaker 4: had a relative killed accidentally on a deer hunting trip,

676
00:44:48,662 --> 00:44:52,862
Speaker 4: and he didn't have a firearms license. He inherited a

677
00:44:52,902 --> 00:44:56,822
Speaker 4: shotgun that his father used on his farm when he

678
00:44:56,942 --> 00:44:59,822
Speaker 4: was young, which would be a relic compared to the

679
00:44:59,862 --> 00:45:05,422
Speaker 4: source of weapons that greg Lynn had, So there might

680
00:45:05,462 --> 00:45:09,142
Speaker 4: have been some tension around Greglinn's use of the guns

681
00:45:09,142 --> 00:45:12,102
Speaker 4: at the campsite, whether he was to be using them safely.

682
00:45:12,542 --> 00:45:15,302
Speaker 4: Both of these men seem to have personalities that wouldn't

683
00:45:15,302 --> 00:45:19,342
Speaker 4: have taken well to being questioned or policed in any

684
00:45:19,342 --> 00:45:24,462
Speaker 4: way about their activities, and so if Russell Hill took

685
00:45:24,462 --> 00:45:28,902
Speaker 4: a photo of those guns unsecured or the ammunition unsecured

686
00:45:29,062 --> 00:45:33,302
Speaker 4: in Gregland's car while greglin had been camping, perhaps that

687
00:45:33,422 --> 00:45:36,182
Speaker 4: might have been enough to trigger off the subsequent chain

688
00:45:36,222 --> 00:45:40,862
Speaker 4: of events, or equally, perhaps greg Lynn was hunting too

689
00:45:40,862 --> 00:45:43,342
Speaker 4: closed against it or carrying the weapon in a way

690
00:45:43,342 --> 00:45:46,342
Speaker 4: that violated the code or the laws, and Russell Hill

691
00:45:46,422 --> 00:45:49,422
Speaker 4: had footage of that. But it's one thing for us

692
00:45:49,422 --> 00:45:51,662
Speaker 4: to put together evidence in that way. It's another thing

693
00:45:51,702 --> 00:45:54,982
Speaker 4: for the Crown prosecutor, who is restricted to what they

694
00:45:55,022 --> 00:45:58,502
Speaker 4: can prove on the evidence available. So they weren't able

695
00:45:58,542 --> 00:46:03,142
Speaker 4: to put together a theory in those details, but they

696
00:46:03,342 --> 00:46:08,102
Speaker 4: elicited sufficient information that Greglan's story, at least in relation

697
00:46:08,182 --> 00:46:10,262
Speaker 4: to Carol Clay, was not persuasive to the jury.

698
00:46:10,782 --> 00:46:12,462
Speaker 1: And one of the ways I guess they could do

699
00:46:12,542 --> 00:46:17,222
Speaker 1: that as well was to prove that the extent that

700
00:46:17,262 --> 00:46:20,262
Speaker 1: he went to to hide the fact that they died

701
00:46:20,622 --> 00:46:25,902
Speaker 1: kind of showed that he potentially killed them, because why

702
00:46:25,902 --> 00:46:28,982
Speaker 1: would you do that? Why would you go to such links?

703
00:46:28,982 --> 00:46:32,382
Speaker 4: Correct? And it's accessible now there's a mental ocuatory appeal

704
00:46:32,422 --> 00:46:35,102
Speaker 4: court judgment, So that means that instead of waiting till

705
00:46:35,142 --> 00:46:37,542
Speaker 4: the end of the trial to see if a particular

706
00:46:37,582 --> 00:46:40,502
Speaker 4: point of law was correctly applied and then going to appeal,

707
00:46:40,582 --> 00:46:44,942
Speaker 4: they can pause the proceedings send that small confined point

708
00:46:45,102 --> 00:46:46,742
Speaker 4: up to the Court of Appeal, who can give a

709
00:46:46,742 --> 00:46:49,542
Speaker 4: clear answer and then the trial can proceed on short footing.

710
00:46:49,822 --> 00:46:52,662
Speaker 4: It's a good use of resources when there's an ambiguity

711
00:46:52,662 --> 00:46:55,462
Speaker 4: in the law. But the ambiguity was precisely about this,

712
00:46:55,622 --> 00:46:58,782
Speaker 4: the circumstances in which what we call post offense conduct

713
00:46:59,422 --> 00:47:04,702
Speaker 4: like destroying evidence, moving bodies, anything that happens after the

714
00:47:04,742 --> 00:47:10,942
Speaker 4: offending can be used to reason backwards towards intentioned murder.

715
00:47:11,542 --> 00:47:14,342
Speaker 4: And the Court of Appeal said that on the facts

716
00:47:14,342 --> 00:47:17,382
Speaker 4: of this particular Crown case it could be used for

717
00:47:17,422 --> 00:47:20,862
Speaker 4: that purpose, and then the jury would need to find

718
00:47:21,102 --> 00:47:22,982
Speaker 4: in order to use it in that way that there

719
00:47:23,062 --> 00:47:28,702
Speaker 4: was no other possible explanation for the conduct except that

720
00:47:28,782 --> 00:47:31,222
Speaker 4: he was guilty of murder, so that it was so

721
00:47:31,382 --> 00:47:36,262
Speaker 4: disproportionate to an accidental situation. And of course that's complicated

722
00:47:36,302 --> 00:47:39,742
Speaker 4: by this question of panic. Panic doesn't follow rational rules.

723
00:47:39,782 --> 00:47:44,142
Speaker 4: So we're saying, is it possible, Yes, many things are possible.

724
00:47:44,782 --> 00:47:48,222
Speaker 4: Is it probable? I don't think so in the circumstance,

725
00:47:48,702 --> 00:47:52,302
Speaker 4: And is it possible that Greg Lynn, with everything that

726
00:47:52,342 --> 00:47:55,382
Speaker 4: we know about his training as a pilot, the methodicalness,

727
00:47:55,422 --> 00:47:59,262
Speaker 4: the diligence, the planning, would have been panicked only at

728
00:47:59,302 --> 00:48:02,062
Speaker 4: that stage and not previously, or that he wouldn't have

729
00:48:02,342 --> 00:48:04,782
Speaker 4: stopped and used the radio and called for help or

730
00:48:04,822 --> 00:48:09,902
Speaker 4: preserve the evidence of these two improbable deaths, and the

731
00:48:09,982 --> 00:48:13,662
Speaker 4: jury that they could answer that question confidently in relation

732
00:48:13,782 --> 00:48:16,262
Speaker 4: to Carol Clay, but clearly not confidently in relation to

733
00:48:16,302 --> 00:48:16,862
Speaker 4: Russell Hill.

734
00:48:18,062 --> 00:48:19,982
Speaker 1: Yeah, I need you to explain this to me, because

735
00:48:19,982 --> 00:48:23,542
Speaker 1: it's so tricky to understand when you've got these two

736
00:48:23,582 --> 00:48:25,822
Speaker 1: accidental deaths. You've got the same amount of evidence for

737
00:48:25,862 --> 00:48:28,102
Speaker 1: both of them, which is very little in terms of

738
00:48:28,142 --> 00:48:31,142
Speaker 1: physical stuff, and the jury was able to find him

739
00:48:31,182 --> 00:48:34,582
Speaker 1: guilty of murder for one of the deaths, yes, and

740
00:48:34,622 --> 00:48:37,022
Speaker 1: not the other. Please explain.

741
00:48:37,862 --> 00:48:41,662
Speaker 4: Yes, it's tricky, and we will not know the jury's

742
00:48:41,662 --> 00:48:45,262
Speaker 4: reasoning process. We're not allowed to ask about it. It

743
00:48:45,302 --> 00:48:50,382
Speaker 4: remains a locked box. But it seems that they concluded

744
00:48:51,582 --> 00:48:56,702
Speaker 4: that Hill was killed in circumstances that could not be

745
00:48:56,822 --> 00:49:01,862
Speaker 4: proven beyond a reasonable doubt, so that they couldn't confidently

746
00:49:01,982 --> 00:49:04,582
Speaker 4: say that he was going to see the murder, but

747
00:49:04,782 --> 00:49:10,142
Speaker 4: that Lynn murdered Carol because she was a witness to

748
00:49:10,222 --> 00:49:16,582
Speaker 4: that death. So they used the evidence that was presented

749
00:49:17,502 --> 00:49:21,822
Speaker 4: to come to those two conclusions and the standard that's

750
00:49:21,862 --> 00:49:27,862
Speaker 4: required beyond reasonable doubt operated differently. I think, having sat

751
00:49:27,942 --> 00:49:32,382
Speaker 4: through it, that the fact that there's direct physical evidence

752
00:49:32,982 --> 00:49:38,582
Speaker 4: relating to Carol's bones coming into contact with the metal

753
00:49:38,742 --> 00:49:41,102
Speaker 4: that's likely to have been a bullet played a role,

754
00:49:41,662 --> 00:49:46,542
Speaker 4: and the total absence of physical evidence about Russell's death.

755
00:49:47,102 --> 00:49:50,102
Speaker 4: There's nothing to say that it was a gunshot. There's

756
00:49:50,182 --> 00:49:52,142
Speaker 4: nothing to say that it was a knife. There's nothing

757
00:49:52,182 --> 00:49:58,302
Speaker 4: at all that obviously weighed on the jury with sufficient

758
00:49:58,302 --> 00:50:01,342
Speaker 4: weight that they couldn't say what happened beyond reasonable doubt,

759
00:50:01,822 --> 00:50:05,182
Speaker 4: but they could say that whatever it was that she witnessed,

760
00:50:05,262 --> 00:50:07,342
Speaker 4: she was killed because of it.

761
00:50:08,702 --> 00:50:12,782
Speaker 1: Do you think that this was a particular tricky case.

762
00:50:13,022 --> 00:50:15,382
Speaker 1: Some cases are quite black and white. You know, there's

763
00:50:15,462 --> 00:50:18,862
Speaker 1: enough evidence for a jury to go away and deliberate

764
00:50:18,902 --> 00:50:21,742
Speaker 1: for a few hours. But this jury took days and

765
00:50:21,822 --> 00:50:24,582
Speaker 1: days and days, and I don't envy what they had

766
00:50:24,622 --> 00:50:26,902
Speaker 1: to do. It sounds like it was really hard this

767
00:50:26,982 --> 00:50:28,222
Speaker 1: particular case.

768
00:50:29,382 --> 00:50:33,142
Speaker 4: Yes, I had the thought for the whole six weeks

769
00:50:33,142 --> 00:50:36,662
Speaker 4: of the trial that they were in an almost impossible position,

770
00:50:36,982 --> 00:50:39,702
Speaker 4: and it's very difficult because you're sitting there and we

771
00:50:39,782 --> 00:50:42,622
Speaker 4: had access to a whole range of information that the

772
00:50:42,702 --> 00:50:45,702
Speaker 4: jury did not have access to, and they have to

773
00:50:45,742 --> 00:50:50,862
Speaker 4: rely on their common sense, as the judge will remind them,

774
00:50:51,022 --> 00:50:55,662
Speaker 4: and their close attentiveness to all of this information. And

775
00:50:55,702 --> 00:50:58,622
Speaker 4: then there are twelve very different people in a room

776
00:50:58,742 --> 00:51:02,422
Speaker 4: who have to come to an accord unanimously. So there's

777
00:51:02,462 --> 00:51:05,942
Speaker 4: so many sorts of factors that determine these outcomes, and

778
00:51:06,142 --> 00:51:09,342
Speaker 4: every jury is in a sense unique, and every verdict

779
00:51:09,382 --> 00:51:12,342
Speaker 4: is in a sense unique, because most experienced counsel and

780
00:51:12,462 --> 00:51:15,382
Speaker 4: judges would tell you that you can't be confident until

781
00:51:15,382 --> 00:51:17,462
Speaker 4: the moment of verdict about what it's going to be.

782
00:51:18,222 --> 00:51:21,982
Speaker 4: So it was an extremely tricky case for a number

783
00:51:21,982 --> 00:51:26,502
Speaker 4: of reasons. The total absence of evidence, the admission about

784
00:51:26,942 --> 00:51:30,982
Speaker 4: acting despicably, in the words of rig Lunn's lawyer Dermot

785
00:51:31,062 --> 00:51:36,142
Speaker 4: dan Ac, that it was despicable to destroy this evidence,

786
00:51:36,222 --> 00:51:38,942
Speaker 4: But that destroying evidence is not the same thing as

787
00:51:38,982 --> 00:51:42,262
Speaker 4: having proved the unreasonable doubt of two murders. So they

788
00:51:42,302 --> 00:51:45,102
Speaker 4: have to put together everything that they are seeing and

789
00:51:45,142 --> 00:51:48,782
Speaker 4: everything that they are hearing and reviewing, and they have

790
00:51:48,862 --> 00:51:52,702
Speaker 4: to do it all unanimously. So really tricky situation.

791
00:51:53,862 --> 00:51:58,102
Speaker 1: What did you make of Lynn's character during the trial,

792
00:51:58,102 --> 00:52:01,862
Speaker 1: and especially when that one guilty one not guilty verdict

793
00:52:01,902 --> 00:52:02,382
Speaker 1: came back.

794
00:52:02,942 --> 00:52:08,102
Speaker 4: He was interesting to watch and fairly consistent in his

795
00:52:08,342 --> 00:52:12,902
Speaker 4: affect how he presented from the earliest days of these hearings,

796
00:52:12,942 --> 00:52:17,142
Speaker 4: which were initially on zoom because we're still kind of

797
00:52:17,142 --> 00:52:21,822
Speaker 4: coming out of COVID, he has been engaged and attentive

798
00:52:22,142 --> 00:52:27,022
Speaker 4: to what's been going on. He's also been vigorously taking notes.

799
00:52:27,062 --> 00:52:30,862
Speaker 4: He has a little yellow file of papers and documents

800
00:52:30,902 --> 00:52:33,742
Speaker 4: that he carried into the court each day, and throughout

801
00:52:33,822 --> 00:52:37,342
Speaker 4: weeks and weeks of evidence, he would be looking down

802
00:52:37,502 --> 00:52:39,942
Speaker 4: and taking notes. Now, part of that is for the

803
00:52:39,942 --> 00:52:44,582
Speaker 4: purposes of giving his lawyer instructions, because he is the

804
00:52:44,622 --> 00:52:48,982
Speaker 4: person who is being represented and again the only living witness,

805
00:52:49,822 --> 00:52:53,702
Speaker 4: But in my understanding, a lot of that was what

806
00:52:53,862 --> 00:52:57,662
Speaker 4: sociologists refer to as impression management. We all want to

807
00:52:57,702 --> 00:52:59,622
Speaker 4: be perceived in a certain way, we all want to

808
00:52:59,622 --> 00:53:03,182
Speaker 4: exercise some control over our image. But in terms of

809
00:53:03,222 --> 00:53:06,662
Speaker 4: the personality type that was being discussed, I found it

810
00:53:06,742 --> 00:53:11,742
Speaker 4: interesting that this normalization of the vironment that he is

811
00:53:11,782 --> 00:53:14,742
Speaker 4: at work, that he has important things to be doing,

812
00:53:15,302 --> 00:53:17,502
Speaker 4: that he is not meeting the gaze of the people

813
00:53:17,542 --> 00:53:20,542
Speaker 4: who are looking at him, or that it was kind

814
00:53:20,542 --> 00:53:25,102
Speaker 4: of a distancing measure, and my understanding was that it

815
00:53:25,262 --> 00:53:28,342
Speaker 4: kind of solidified this image of a man who needed

816
00:53:28,342 --> 00:53:31,582
Speaker 4: a certain measure of control at any cost.

817
00:53:32,502 --> 00:53:34,782
Speaker 1: Can you talk us through what happens next, Because we've

818
00:53:34,822 --> 00:53:39,262
Speaker 1: got the verdict, Now we wait for the sentencing and

819
00:53:39,342 --> 00:53:42,782
Speaker 1: within that the victims' families get a chance to say something.

820
00:53:43,662 --> 00:53:47,302
Speaker 1: Lynn also has the potential to appeal after the fact.

821
00:53:47,702 --> 00:53:50,422
Speaker 1: What are we looking at for the next few months.

822
00:53:50,382 --> 00:53:54,302
Speaker 4: So on the nineteenth of July, there'll be a sentencing hearing.

823
00:53:54,582 --> 00:53:58,102
Speaker 4: To prepare for the sentencing play, evidence will need to

824
00:53:58,142 --> 00:54:02,262
Speaker 4: be gathered by both parties for the purposes of arguing

825
00:54:02,382 --> 00:54:06,222
Speaker 4: what sentence Lynn should receive for the murder of Carol Clay.

826
00:54:06,982 --> 00:54:10,422
Speaker 4: And then all that evidence will need to be gathered.

827
00:54:10,502 --> 00:54:12,782
Speaker 4: That'll be slightly different evidence from the evidence we heard

828
00:54:12,822 --> 00:54:17,182
Speaker 4: at the trial. It'll be evidence about his background and circumstances,

829
00:54:17,262 --> 00:54:20,702
Speaker 4: his character, both by the Crown and by the defense.

830
00:54:21,382 --> 00:54:23,902
Speaker 4: And then there will be the sentencing plea which all

831
00:54:23,902 --> 00:54:27,542
Speaker 4: of that will be presented to the judge, Michael Croucher,

832
00:54:28,382 --> 00:54:33,462
Speaker 4: and then there will be time needed to go off

833
00:54:33,502 --> 00:54:36,182
Speaker 4: and formulate the sentence and the reasons for a sentence,

834
00:54:36,822 --> 00:54:40,822
Speaker 4: so it'll be another few months before we're aware of

835
00:54:41,582 --> 00:54:43,502
Speaker 4: what his sentence is going to be.

836
00:54:44,382 --> 00:54:47,702
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about Russell's wife and Russell's daughters, because

837
00:54:47,742 --> 00:54:50,262
Speaker 1: this must be really hard for them, because they did

838
00:54:50,302 --> 00:54:54,862
Speaker 1: get them not guilty, whereas Carol's family is getting that justice.

839
00:54:55,582 --> 00:54:58,942
Speaker 4: That was something that I noticed and that weighed heavily

840
00:54:58,982 --> 00:55:02,502
Speaker 4: on me at that moment of hearing the verdict. The

841
00:55:02,582 --> 00:55:06,582
Speaker 4: fourth person was asked about the verdict for Russell Hill first,

842
00:55:06,782 --> 00:55:10,062
Speaker 4: and so we heard not guilty first. In the press

843
00:55:10,102 --> 00:55:14,462
Speaker 4: box is located next to additional seating where one of

844
00:55:14,502 --> 00:55:21,262
Speaker 4: Russell's three daughters, Debbie, was sitting, and watching her receive

845
00:55:21,342 --> 00:55:25,662
Speaker 4: that verdict can be quite still. It was almost like

846
00:55:25,742 --> 00:55:28,222
Speaker 4: time stopped, and you could get a small sense of

847
00:55:28,302 --> 00:55:32,222
Speaker 4: the scope of that pain and that lack of kind

848
00:55:32,262 --> 00:55:36,902
Speaker 4: of closure or redemption. Then the four person was asked

849
00:55:36,942 --> 00:55:39,542
Speaker 4: about the verdict for Carol Klay, and then the guilty came.

850
00:55:39,582 --> 00:55:42,662
Speaker 4: And when a guilty comes in child's like this, it

851
00:55:42,702 --> 00:55:45,342
Speaker 4: seems to just expand and fill the room. There's a

852
00:55:45,462 --> 00:55:48,902
Speaker 4: kind of weightiness to it that is as close as

853
00:55:48,942 --> 00:55:52,942
Speaker 4: I think I can come to a experience of redemption

854
00:55:53,062 --> 00:55:56,142
Speaker 4: in the courtroom, and it's quite a significant thing. And

855
00:55:56,222 --> 00:55:59,862
Speaker 4: so with outcomes like this, which are ones that might

856
00:56:00,022 --> 00:56:03,102
Speaker 4: make neither side of the bar table happy, it's a

857
00:56:03,102 --> 00:56:07,902
Speaker 4: small measure of solace I think to say, Okay, well

858
00:56:08,182 --> 00:56:11,982
Speaker 4: now he is guilty of murder, and some of that

859
00:56:12,142 --> 00:56:16,582
Speaker 4: can go towards what happened to Russell Hill. But I

860
00:56:17,462 --> 00:56:20,542
Speaker 4: think that there will be a feeling of loss there

861
00:56:20,622 --> 00:56:23,102
Speaker 4: and perhaps of anger for the families.

862
00:56:24,022 --> 00:56:26,422
Speaker 1: You're writing a book on this case. You've sat through

863
00:56:26,462 --> 00:56:29,062
Speaker 1: every single day in court. You know this story back

864
00:56:29,062 --> 00:56:32,782
Speaker 1: to front. What are you hoping in your writing to

865
00:56:32,862 --> 00:56:36,782
Speaker 1: bring to this narrative and to share with the world.

866
00:56:37,582 --> 00:56:40,782
Speaker 4: So it won't be what many might expect in terms

867
00:56:40,782 --> 00:56:45,142
Speaker 4: of genre. It will be a trial book, but it

868
00:56:45,262 --> 00:56:51,702
Speaker 4: will explore this case and these human actions in their

869
00:56:51,822 --> 00:56:56,982
Speaker 4: broadest possible context, because of the landscape in which this occurred,

870
00:56:57,182 --> 00:57:01,742
Speaker 4: of the nature of the investigation, and of all the

871
00:57:01,782 --> 00:57:05,942
Speaker 4: personalities involved in their histories. There's themes here that I

872
00:57:05,982 --> 00:57:11,822
Speaker 4: think have kept us captivated as readers for the last

873
00:57:12,422 --> 00:57:16,582
Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty years of Victoria's history. And so

874
00:57:16,982 --> 00:57:21,422
Speaker 4: I'm interested in our fixation with this story. I'm interested

875
00:57:21,502 --> 00:57:26,062
Speaker 4: in my own fixation about the story. Why when we

876
00:57:26,102 --> 00:57:28,822
Speaker 4: didn't have a word about what happened to these two

877
00:57:28,862 --> 00:57:32,742
Speaker 4: people for eighteen months and there was literally almost no

878
00:57:32,982 --> 00:57:36,622
Speaker 4: new information, it remained alive in the headlines.

879
00:57:37,862 --> 00:57:39,742
Speaker 1: So do you think that this is one of those

880
00:57:39,822 --> 00:57:44,142
Speaker 1: stories that in decades to come we will still remember

881
00:57:44,142 --> 00:57:46,662
Speaker 1: it viscerally? This is kind of a story that really

882
00:57:46,742 --> 00:57:49,582
Speaker 1: is going to shape the Australian crime scene.

883
00:57:50,142 --> 00:57:52,502
Speaker 4: I think there's enough indication so far that the answer

884
00:57:52,582 --> 00:57:57,942
Speaker 4: has to be yes. There was that full media saturation

885
00:57:58,462 --> 00:58:02,862
Speaker 4: very early on. Despite having new COVID news every day,

886
00:58:03,662 --> 00:58:06,902
Speaker 4: we kept these missing campers at the forefront of our

887
00:58:06,942 --> 00:58:10,822
Speaker 4: minds and at the front of the papers. They're consistently there.

888
00:58:11,182 --> 00:58:14,062
Speaker 4: People are consistently clicking on them and interested in them.

889
00:58:14,462 --> 00:58:18,182
Speaker 4: We have the high volume of information coming through crime stoppers.

890
00:58:18,662 --> 00:58:20,662
Speaker 4: I think that the police said that it was one

891
00:58:20,702 --> 00:58:23,342
Speaker 4: of the most responded to cases that they'd ever had.

892
00:58:24,182 --> 00:58:29,342
Speaker 4: So again, this kind of activation around people going missing,

893
00:58:29,542 --> 00:58:33,182
Speaker 4: around the particular landscape in which it occurs, the deaths

894
00:58:33,262 --> 00:58:36,462
Speaker 4: that get our attention and the deaths that don't get

895
00:58:36,462 --> 00:58:38,742
Speaker 4: our attention, and then who we choose to believe in,

896
00:58:38,822 --> 00:58:42,262
Speaker 4: why all of those things are operative here in a

897
00:58:42,302 --> 00:58:46,782
Speaker 4: way that makes people really interested. Now I can't follow

898
00:58:46,822 --> 00:58:52,142
Speaker 4: what most people find interested. I'm too anti authoritarian to

899
00:58:52,462 --> 00:58:54,862
Speaker 4: go like that. I think I would still be working

900
00:58:55,182 --> 00:58:58,822
Speaker 4: as a lawyer if I wasn't this much of a

901
00:58:59,142 --> 00:59:02,222
Speaker 4: lone wolf. But I think I'm saying that I'm one

902
00:59:02,222 --> 00:59:04,182
Speaker 4: of those people who was very interested. I see it

903
00:59:04,182 --> 00:59:08,102
Speaker 4: in myself, and I'm curious to explore why the attention

904
00:59:08,262 --> 00:59:11,102
Speaker 4: is going there, what's at play there. There's so many

905
00:59:11,222 --> 00:59:14,982
Speaker 4: archetypal themes with any criminal case, with any murder, but

906
00:59:15,102 --> 00:59:18,302
Speaker 4: particularly ones that have all of these feature They activate

907
00:59:18,382 --> 00:59:20,902
Speaker 4: something in us, and I'm curious to find out what

908
00:59:20,902 --> 00:59:21,262
Speaker 4: that is.

909
00:59:26,342 --> 00:59:29,382
Speaker 1: Thanks to Sarah Krasnustein for assisting us to tell this story.

910
00:59:29,942 --> 00:59:33,022
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and

911
00:59:33,022 --> 00:59:36,822
Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Bath, with audio design by Scott Stronik.

912
00:59:37,102 --> 00:59:40,982
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Live Proud. Thanks so much for listening.

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00:59:41,342 --> 00:59:44,222
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation