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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and Welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mama Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking

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Speaker 2: about on Monday, the eighth of July.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Mia Friedman.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And on the show today, Mia gave me the challenge

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Speaker 2: of making the UK election results interesting and relevant to Australia.

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Speaker 2: Watch Me Die Trying. Also, there's a new Nicole Kidman

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Speaker 2: movie out, and as usual, everyone's talking about what's been

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Speaker 2: done to a face, but it's not her face. And

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Speaker 2: what is a high value woman clue? It's a dog whistle.

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Speaker 2: Let us explain.

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Speaker 4: But first, Jesse, I'm a recovering victim of eyebrow blindness.

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Speaker 3: In case you missed it, Apparently we're all experiencing eyebrow blindness,

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Speaker 3: coined by TikTok creators as everything is eyebrow blindness for

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Speaker 3: to our habit of shaping our eyebrows according to the

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Speaker 3: latest trends rather than what actually suits us, meaning that

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Speaker 3: we inevitably look back in horror. Essentially even now we

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Speaker 3: are blind to whether our eyebrows look good or not

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Speaker 3: every now and then. I don't know if you guys

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Speaker 3: have experienced this. I feel as though I get a

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Speaker 3: moment of clarity where I look in the mirror and

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Speaker 3: I go, no, you do look ridiculous. You look ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: And I've gone this far because of an Instagram reel

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Speaker 3: I watched that told me to fill in my eyebrows

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Speaker 3: a lot. I think I'm still a little bit stuck

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Speaker 3: on the Kara Delavine moment when we had the really

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Speaker 3: bold eyebrows and you brush them up and try and

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Speaker 3: give more and more volume. And I remember thinking this too.

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Speaker 3: With the eyebrow lamination trend. I saw an influencer do

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Speaker 3: it once and I just went, it's two months. We'll

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Speaker 3: look back and go, you look ridiculous because you look

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Speaker 3: a little bit like you've been electrocuted, because it's all

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Speaker 3: up up and like stuck to your face. And it

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Speaker 3: happens very very quickly. Do you guys have eyebrow blindness?

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Speaker 4: I'm in a full blown eyebrow crisis. So eyebrows are

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Speaker 4: not usually something that I notice, but my eyebrows have

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Speaker 4: become really sparse and I don't pluck them. I haven't

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Speaker 4: pluck them for years, except for you know, the stray

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Speaker 4: ones that are going down towards my.

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Speaker 1: Eyelashes for a party.

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Speaker 4: But I am just finding that they're getting really sparse,

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Speaker 4: and so I've been thinking about microblading.

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Speaker 1: I'm finding that they.

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Speaker 3: Require microblading feels through permanent tattooing.

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Speaker 4: It's like semi permanent tattooing, so it basically just draws

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Speaker 4: on your eyebrows.

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Speaker 1: So you don't have to do everything.

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Speaker 2: Cause I don't have eyebrows because I'm fair naturally, my

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Speaker 2: eyebrows are invisible, and yet they are the bushiest body

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Speaker 2: hair I have. And now that I'm bolding like you

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Speaker 2: Mia in my eyebrow department, I'm like one of those

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Speaker 2: men who combs over the bolding bits. So I take

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Speaker 2: the really long curly ones and I get the eyebrow

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Speaker 2: gel and I try to stick it over the bits,

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Speaker 2: and then I tend them and I die.

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Speaker 5: The lot.

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Speaker 1: There's a whole lot of eyebrow comb over.

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Speaker 2: A comb over that.

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Speaker 3: Is me is a microblading thing. I feel like you'll

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Speaker 3: do whatever's trendy now and then in five years when

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Speaker 3: no eyebrowses are the cool thing, Holly. I mean, all

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Speaker 3: she has to do is not die hers for a minute,

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Speaker 3: and she's going to be the coolest person at the party.

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Speaker 3: It's true.

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Speaker 4: It's why I say to all young women, don't laser

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Speaker 4: off all your pubes because when the bush comes back.

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Speaker 3: Do you think we have bush blindness?

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Speaker 4: Well? No, I think everyone's fairly aware of their bush.

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Speaker 4: If I asked you to describe your bush now, like

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Speaker 4: I imagine you could do it.

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Speaker 3: But are we blind to what actually looks good on

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Speaker 3: our particular bush? And are we instead just going with

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Speaker 3: the trends?

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Speaker 1: Maybe?

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Speaker 2: Isn't it with your bush? It bore suits your personality

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Speaker 2: than your body a little less personality forward, bushes are

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Speaker 2: very specific.

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Speaker 3: Landing strip still a thing because I think a landing

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Speaker 3: strip looking back was very a mustache for your bits

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Speaker 3: like you look back, and that was never cool. But

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Speaker 3: we did it because I think sex and the City

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Speaker 3: told us to.

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Speaker 4: Well, the bush won't be able to make a comeback

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Speaker 4: when all the gin Z's and millennials have lasered everything

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Speaker 4: to oblivion. Then when they all need mercans, maybe I

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Speaker 4: need an eyebrown merkin.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I definitely do so if you stammer there thanking

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Speaker 2: and greeting the supporters, the beaming smile as he shakes hands.

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Speaker 6: I have just returned from Buckingham Palace, where I accepted

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Speaker 6: an invitation from His Majesty the King to form the

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Speaker 6: next government of this great nation.

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Speaker 2: The UK has a new Prime minister and nobody cares

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Speaker 2: at all. At least that's what Mia told me in

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Speaker 2: our funning meeting this morning. But it's so relevant and

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Speaker 2: so interesting and so canarian a coal mine. I said,

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Speaker 2: we're going to have an election here next year.

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Speaker 4: I said, Look, and I said, I am so deep

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Speaker 4: in panic and rage the US election. I don't have

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Speaker 4: time to care about the elections in other countries that

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Speaker 4: I also don't live in.

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Speaker 2: But this is why you need to write. Because we're

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Speaker 2: having an election next year. France is having one right now,

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Speaker 2: America's having one. Politics is sexy at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Well, I would say politics is drunk and it needs

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Speaker 1: to go hard.

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Speaker 2: That is also true, and that's why when I was

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Speaker 2: telling you this, she just started taking pictures of the

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Speaker 2: cuff of Jesse's jeans and jangling her shoe jewelry. I

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Speaker 2: was so good here are my three attempts to get

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Speaker 2: mea to care about international politics and by extension, everybody else.

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Speaker 3: I will give you one point to start with, which

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Speaker 3: is that I keep reading this stat that almost half

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Speaker 3: of the world's population is going to the polls this

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Speaker 3: year twenty twenty four. Watershed moment will change the course

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Speaker 3: of history. Because of how many elections are happening, we

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Speaker 3: should be keeping a closer It.

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Speaker 2: Makes me terrify a close eye. Okay, first thing, although

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Speaker 2: Kirstarmer and Labor did win a massive landslide victory, the

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Speaker 2: shit skirt, which is the analogy we invented when Theresa

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Speaker 2: May got that job a long time ago, and basically

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Speaker 2: means that yes, you win, but you end up wearing

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of stinky mess that the other people

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Speaker 2: left behind is definitely what Kia is going to be

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Speaker 2: modeling this season, because Britain is still in a right

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Speaker 2: mess and the Tories might have a very long way back.

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Speaker 2: But he's got a lot to do for me.

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Speaker 3: Here.

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Speaker 2: Kiir Sarma, they said he ran a ming var's campaign,

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Speaker 2: meaning like fragile, don't touch it, like it just low target,

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Speaker 2: small target, don't look at me. Let's just stand here

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Speaker 2: and let the others just lose it.

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Speaker 3: And then we discussed last week that he has Friday

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Speaker 3: nights off.

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Speaker 2: And he has Friday nights off, etc. Anyway, he and

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Speaker 2: his party, the Labor Party, won a historic four hundred

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Speaker 2: and twelve seats, which is a lot more than they needed.

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Speaker 2: So greedy. But also when you consider that the Tories,

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Speaker 2: who were the party who had been in power and

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Speaker 2: they're the next major party, only won one hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty one seats.

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Speaker 4: Why were people so angry with them? Apart from you know,

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Speaker 4: Boris Johnson.

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Speaker 2: Which was because they'd had fourteen years in power and

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Speaker 2: Britain is in a terrible state, remember that whole Brexit situation.

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Speaker 2: M He's in the toilet, a whole lot of stuff,

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Speaker 2: public services are failing. So on the surface it looks

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Speaker 2: like wow, amazing, right, Keir Starmer and the Labor Party

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Speaker 2: killed it. But only fifty nine percent of the people

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Speaker 2: eligible to vote voted, so it's not compulsory. Almost half

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Speaker 2: of the people who could vote in Britain just went

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Speaker 2: neither of these two thanks, and of those people who did,

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Speaker 2: only thirty four percent of them actually voted for Labor.

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Speaker 2: It's just that the way that the electoral system vote

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Speaker 2: works there, which I won't tell you about because please

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Speaker 2: don't stab me with her cake knife necklace. There's just

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Speaker 2: a general apathy summed up by this.

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Speaker 5: Dude serious invob I mean you put another pickhead in

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Speaker 5: charge with a great smiley space when he's one life wrilliant.

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Speaker 5: But for a year we're back to pits por agan

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Speaker 5: I mean serious hipov And honestly it's a joke. It's

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Speaker 5: a fing joke. So like I said, you see ai Lot, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: who would have win the votes get the Ai Lot

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Speaker 5: to run the country.

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Speaker 2: This ardly points to the point that we've got it

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Speaker 2: right with forcing people to vote here, because you end

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Speaker 2: up with a more representative result. Let's free will. That's

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Speaker 2: the takeaway. Number two. Holly Valance had a good night?

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Speaker 3: Did she?

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Speaker 2: She did?

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Speaker 3: I would have thought she was the poster girl for

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Speaker 3: the he had a good night.

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Speaker 2: So we talked a while ago about how one of

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Speaker 2: the biggest movers and shakers in UK right wing politics

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Speaker 2: used to be a literal mover and shaker from the

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Speaker 2: two thousand and two banger Kiss Kiss also Melbane's own Flicksculli. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: she gave the Reform UK Party a massive check and

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Speaker 2: then helped them to raise another one point five million

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Speaker 2: pounds to bring Nigel Farage back from America where he

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Speaker 2: was running around like picking up after Donald Trump because

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Speaker 2: he was the Brexit guy I remember, although he's never

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Speaker 2: actually been a member of parliament in Britain. They got

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Speaker 2: him to come back. We talked about this on the

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Speaker 2: show a while ago. Come back oust the leader of

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Speaker 2: the Reform Party, which is the sort of ozim getting

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Speaker 2: bored far right party.

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Speaker 3: No I care about this because I've heard his name.

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Speaker 2: A lot and stand so Holly is a massive fan

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Speaker 2: of Nigel's and she raised all the money to get

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Speaker 2: them to do it. So Reform UK are like a

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Speaker 2: Brexit party, but now that they can't blame Europe for

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Speaker 2: everything anymore, they're a bit unsure of who to blame.

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Speaker 2: But it's definitely the immigrants, so that she'd right, they're

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Speaker 2: hard right. She also held a big fancy fundraiser for

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump in London last week and raised lots of

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Speaker 2: money for him too, which is nice anyway. The point being,

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Speaker 2: with Holly's help, Reform only won four seats, but the

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Speaker 2: reason that you're seeing them everywhere is because Farage got

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Speaker 2: voted into Parliament for the first time, which means that

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Speaker 2: in there he can hassle and effect change. And because

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Speaker 2: of the aforementioned voting system that I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: go into. Are about four million people voted for them.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot by people, right, So now that they're

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Speaker 2: free to organize influence from the inside, the big fear is, well,

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Speaker 2: it depends on way. It might not be a fear.

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Speaker 2: It's not a fear for Holly.

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Speaker 4: We're not going to have to do deals like Labor's

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Speaker 4: not going to have to do deals with them if

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Speaker 4: they've got a massive.

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Speaker 2: Not what they're worried about. What people are worried about

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Speaker 2: is that Farag's point and Reform UK's point is that

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Speaker 2: they're going to infiltrate the Tories and take it over

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Speaker 2: so they will become like.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump has with the Republic of Party.

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Speaker 2: So basically Labor would have to do deals with anyone.

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Speaker 2: As you say, they've got massive majority, but it validates them,

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Speaker 2: It brings them into Parliament where they weren't before, and

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Speaker 2: it means that they can start influencing the Tories because

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Speaker 2: the Tories, who are all going we've all just lost

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Speaker 2: our seats.

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Speaker 1: I see, what are we going to do?

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Speaker 2: Where's the future?

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Speaker 1: It's over here, apparently it's over here on the hard right.

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Speaker 2: And very like what happened at the Australian election when

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Speaker 2: a lot of the more sort of centrist and liberal

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Speaker 2: Liberals lost their seats to teals, that's kind of what's

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Speaker 2: happened at the UK election, which brings me to the

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Speaker 2: third point, which is remember when we used to only

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Speaker 2: have like three TV channels or four TV channels and

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Speaker 2: now we have a bitch of million. Yeah, that's what

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Speaker 2: politics like. I reckon, there's going to be a time

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Speaker 2: when we were going to go Can you remember how

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Speaker 2: we just used to have to choose from these two

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Speaker 2: big parties. Because what happened in Britain, even though it

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Speaker 2: looks on the surface again like a landslide, the independence

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Speaker 2: and the smaller parties cleaned up, so the Libdems who

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Speaker 2: are like their third party, So think of like the Democrats.

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Speaker 2: Right when the Democrats were a thing in Australia, they

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Speaker 2: won seventy one seats as in seventy one more than

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Speaker 2: they had in the last election. They cleaned up in

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Speaker 2: the South of England, like all the Tory voters who

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Speaker 2: couldn't bring themselves to vote conservative anymore. They're not the

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Speaker 2: far right people who wanted to vote for Farach, so

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Speaker 2: they got all of those people.

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Speaker 3: So what you're.

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Speaker 4: Saying is that the old two party system is sort

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Speaker 4: of collapsing everywhere in the world. I mean, we're seeing

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Speaker 4: over the weekend in France as well. People thought that

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Speaker 4: it was going to go far right, but now there's

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Speaker 4: been a coalition among the Greens and the left and

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Speaker 4: it looks like maybe.

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Speaker 1: They'll take power. People don't want that binary choice anymore.

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Speaker 2: Just like we want more tvgions.

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Speaker 1: What will personalization curate everything curation?

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Speaker 3: I was reading that the same thing is a threat

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Speaker 3: to Biden in the US in terms of the people

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Speaker 3: who might vote for him are instead looking at other

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Speaker 3: parties the more represent their interests.

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Speaker 4: That's not the way the US election works so much

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Speaker 4: in that third party candidates have always split the vote

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Speaker 4: depending on where we get left right. I think the

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Speaker 4: biggest problem in the US is what old Mates said

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Speaker 4: in the beginning, which is just that disaffected politics is broken.

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Speaker 4: If we've got two elderly men, one is a liar

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Speaker 4: and one is not fit for office, anymore clearly, how

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Speaker 4: is our system so broken?

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Speaker 1: And why should I vote for either of them?

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Speaker 3: So that speaks to two trends that I've kind of

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Speaker 3: noticed a lot of analysis about lately. The first is

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Speaker 3: Ezra Kline, who is one of my favorite political commentators,

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Speaker 3: says that the big divide isn't between left and right,

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Speaker 3: it's between people who are interested in politics and people

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Speaker 3: who aren't. So what we heard in that clip is

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Speaker 3: that there is this disaffected majority who won't vote, who

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Speaker 3: don't feel represented by anyone, who were just tapping out.

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Speaker 3: And then almost the laughter of the journalist represented the

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Speaker 3: other class, which is this you know, often portrayed as

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Speaker 3: almost an intellectual elite who were kind of fighting at

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Speaker 3: the top, where it's like the average person doesn't give

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Speaker 3: a shit about this because they don't have their capacity.

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Speaker 3: Their lives are full and complicated and this is just

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Speaker 3: not at the top of their priorities.

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Speaker 2: Also explains why the average person who doesn't give a

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Speaker 2: shit about politics, isn't watching insiders, isn't reading the political

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Speaker 2: analysis and all that stuff on the ABC will generally

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Speaker 2: tune into politics about two weeks before they have to vote,

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Speaker 2: maybe a month generously, and then they're just looking around

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Speaker 2: for like what's what right. And one of the things

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Speaker 2: that was interesting after the UK election, which you know

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Speaker 2: had been hailed as this big historic shift, is that

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Speaker 2: the most memorable moments from the campaign were all gaffes,

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Speaker 2: like memes, the moment of Rishi Sunak, you know, announcing

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Speaker 2: the election in the rain that we talked about on

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Speaker 2: the show. The Lib Dems, thellier decided to be like

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Speaker 2: Boris Johnson and just do lots of crazy stunts. So

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Speaker 2: it's like bungee jumping off shit and you know, sort

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Speaker 2: of paddle boarding on the Thames and anything that gets

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Speaker 2: the cameras gets the memification going. Because most people, as

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Speaker 2: you say, Jesse, who are just kind of like whatever,

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Speaker 2: These people are all idiots as far as I can see,

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Speaker 2: are just tuning in at the last minute and looking

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Speaker 2: for color and movement, and that is the game you

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Speaker 2: got to play now that I think had also this

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Speaker 2: real fragmentation which we're also seeing here in Australia of

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Speaker 2: like the broad churches so called of the left and

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Speaker 2: the right aren't broad enough now. We want them more fragmented,

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Speaker 2: more small and more personalized.

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Speaker 4: We saw that with Fatima Payman in Australia last week,

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Speaker 4: where she was part of the Labor government. She didn't

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Speaker 4: agree with their policy on Gaza and on Israel, so

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Speaker 4: she left the party and is now an independent.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting because.

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Speaker 4: Political parties used to always be, as you say, wholly

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Speaker 4: a broad church, and there would be things that you

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Speaker 4: would agree with in things that you wouldn't. For example,

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Speaker 4: when Penny Wong was part of the ALP and the

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Speaker 4: official was against marriage equality and at the time, and

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Speaker 4: as a gay woman, that was obviously very difficult for

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Speaker 4: her personally, but she understood that as part of the

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Speaker 4: party you have to back the party's position. Now it's

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Speaker 4: not like that in every political party. Some parties in

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Speaker 4: Australia let you cross the floor. The Liberals are more

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Speaker 4: relaxed about it. In the ALP they're not. And there's

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Speaker 4: a lot of talk about whether with this more fragmented

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Speaker 4: niche approach of both voters and MPs, is politics splintering and.

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Speaker 3: A focus on true representation and diversity in politics actually

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Speaker 3: having people who represent the electorate, whereas you know, not

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Speaker 3: that long ago it was only white men, so it

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Speaker 3: might have been easier to reach a consensus because they

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Speaker 3: weren't even attempting to represent the entire election.

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Speaker 2: This is why people get so disaffected though, Right, is

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Speaker 2: that in order to reach a consensus, that's often why

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Speaker 2: you're doing deals. Right, So you're saying, if you will

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Speaker 2: back us on this, then I'll give you a little

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Speaker 2: bit of that. And you know, we see that in

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Speaker 2: American politics all the time when actually Congress kinds of

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Speaker 2: gets locked and can't move anymore, gets paralyzed by its

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Speaker 2: deal making and it's giving too much and taking too much.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is is that it's very hard to

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Speaker 2: reach consensus if you're not going to stand behind a

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Speaker 2: party line and say I'm always going to be true

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Speaker 2: to my values, which is absolutely admirable, and we all

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Speaker 2: know we live in a more personal, brand, values driven world.

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Speaker 2: How do you get big movements happening and get change

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Speaker 2: across the line?

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Speaker 3: I read this analysis that it's not the job of

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Speaker 3: the politician to generate favorability anymore, but to cast the

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Speaker 3: other in a negative light, which goes to Joe Biden

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Speaker 3: and Trump. I wonder if that is Biden's only strategy.

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Speaker 3: Give Donald Trump enough room and he'll kind of be

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Speaker 3: responsible for enough gaffs that he won't even have to

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Speaker 3: be favorably.

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Speaker 4: It's actually the opposite. That's exactly what Donald Trump's doing.

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Speaker 4: He's actually been very quiet since the debate, and now

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Speaker 4: all everybody's talking about is not all the lies that

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump told, the fact that he's a convicted fell

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Speaker 4: and a lunatic. They're talking about Biden and this is

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Speaker 4: the problem. And as we record this, he's still the

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Speaker 4: candidate and refuses to step down. Now the rest of

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Speaker 4: the campaign, all the oxygen is going to be about

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Speaker 4: whether Biden's fit for office, which is hilarious given that

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Speaker 4: he's running against the truck.

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Speaker 3: He knows how to use a news cycle. And the

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Speaker 3: prolonged result of this, I suppose digital media has been

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Speaker 3: fifteen twenty years clickbait, headlines, anger, all of those things

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Speaker 3: happens with an algorithm, means that this negative political environment.

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Speaker 3: The result of that is that we've just lost faith

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Speaker 3: in the political process and no one wants to vote.

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Speaker 3: That's how we end up, which is quite sad. Our

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Speaker 3: News podcast The Quickie is going to talk more about

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Speaker 3: the French election on Wednesday, after the polls have closed

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Speaker 3: and we have all the results. Claire Murphy will explain

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Speaker 3: how all of this will tie into the Olympics, which

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Speaker 3: is being held in Paris starts this month.

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Speaker 2: This is madness.

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Speaker 3: Hey, yeah, this is your mom and your boss.

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Speaker 1: Who you hate.

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Speaker 3: It's weird mom. Over the weekend, I found myself having

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Speaker 3: several arguments about one man's face. You might have seen

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Speaker 3: a new movie on Netflix called A Family Affair, starring

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Speaker 3: Nicole Kidman, Joey King, and Zac Efron. And while women's

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Speaker 3: faces are often the subject of much speculation and chatter,

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Speaker 3: and I must say, in this film, Nicole Kidman's face

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Speaker 3: has come up, but we're going to leave that to

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Speaker 3: the side this time. It's thirty six year old Efron's

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Speaker 3: appearance that has attracted a great deal of commentary. Here's

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Speaker 3: what the Internet is saying. Netflix fans all have the

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Speaker 3: same complaint about the new Nicole Kidman and Zac Efron movie.

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Speaker 3: Fans alarmed by zac Efron's face, zac Efron fans confused

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Speaker 3: by dramatic transformation, and so on. So if you haven't

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Speaker 3: seen Efron lately, we've posted a picture on the mummea

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Speaker 3: out loud in Instagram. But the shape of his jaw

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Speaker 3: has changed considerably and his lips his.

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Speaker 2: Whole face and his forehead and his eyes.

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Speaker 1: He looks like David Hazelhoff.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: While fans were asking what Efron did to his beautiful face,

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Speaker 3: a story resurfaced about an accident Efron had more than

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Speaker 3: ten years ago. In twenty thirteen. Efron says he was

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Speaker 3: running through his house in socks and he slipped, hitting

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Speaker 3: his chin on a granite fountain.

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Speaker 1: There's so much to unpack just about the statement.

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Speaker 3: Why you've never tripped on her granite house?

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Speaker 2: Celebrity house problem.

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Speaker 3: He was rendered unconscious and when he woke up, his

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Speaker 3: chin was, to quote Efron, hanging off his face. Following

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Speaker 3: the incident, his massacres, which are the muscles located on

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Speaker 3: each side of your jaw, just grew. He was meant

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Speaker 3: to be having like Phisio to sort it out, but

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Speaker 3: then he had to go and shoot something and it

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Speaker 3: got interrupted and he said, they got really, really big.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's a thing.

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Speaker 3: He told Men's Health magazines.

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Speaker 1: Apparently I'm a doctor, and I think that's a lie.

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Speaker 3: Injury was really serious, and he nearly died afterwards. He

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Speaker 3: also had no idea that people were talking about his

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Speaker 3: face until his mother alerted him to it.

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Speaker 4: He had said, no idea, like a completely different person.

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Speaker 3: If I valued what other people thought of me to

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Speaker 3: the extent that they may think I do, I definitely

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Speaker 3: wouldn't be able to do this.

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Speaker 1: Why do people gasolate us like you do?

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Speaker 4: You want to your face, but don't make up silly

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Speaker 4: stories or tell us it's not what we sell I do.

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Speaker 3: So he has had an accident, you can see he

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Speaker 3: was in I've got a.

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Speaker 4: Little scar under my chin and from what I had

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Speaker 4: fell off my trike when I was five.

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Speaker 3: So I have friends who you know, have been in

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Speaker 3: an accident or have a scar, or have had health

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Speaker 3: issues that mean that they look different.

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Speaker 1: Completely reconstructed facial surgery.

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Speaker 3: I know one person who did, and I remember she'd

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Speaker 3: been in a car accident and she'd had quite serious,

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Speaker 3: like reconstructive surgery, And the comments were one of the

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Speaker 3: hardest things, because you actually do need plastic surgery because

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Speaker 3: of what happened. It just felt like everyone had the

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Speaker 3: right to comment on how her face had And this

441
00:21:17,367 --> 00:21:19,767
Speaker 3: is exactly the same rhetoric we've seen around Efron is

442
00:21:19,807 --> 00:21:23,047
Speaker 3: like you've messed up your face, as though you own it.

443
00:21:23,607 --> 00:21:26,167
Speaker 3: Like I understand that he's a movie star and that

444
00:21:26,607 --> 00:21:29,447
Speaker 3: we watch him for two hours, so you're gonna have

445
00:21:29,447 --> 00:21:32,967
Speaker 3: some thoughts. But if we take his word for it

446
00:21:33,007 --> 00:21:34,807
Speaker 3: for a moment and go, you had an injury where

447
00:21:34,807 --> 00:21:37,607
Speaker 3: you nearly died ten years ago. The story is that

448
00:21:37,647 --> 00:21:39,647
Speaker 3: he wasn't seen in public for a really long time

449
00:21:39,687 --> 00:21:41,407
Speaker 3: because he was really upset.

450
00:21:41,167 --> 00:21:44,007
Speaker 2: Like I always see him. No, there wasn't in Australia

451
00:21:44,047 --> 00:21:45,887
Speaker 2: for a hundred years and I saw him every day

452
00:21:45,887 --> 00:21:47,807
Speaker 2: with his nice girl friend from Byron.

453
00:21:48,327 --> 00:21:50,207
Speaker 4: Different and that was only a few years ago, and

454
00:21:50,207 --> 00:21:51,687
Speaker 4: he looks different again since then.

455
00:21:51,767 --> 00:21:54,647
Speaker 3: Well, the story though with physio, if he didn't do

456
00:21:54,727 --> 00:21:56,447
Speaker 3: that properly, and if he's saying that the muscles grow

457
00:21:56,487 --> 00:21:58,167
Speaker 3: and grew, then the idea would be that he's.

458
00:21:58,367 --> 00:22:01,287
Speaker 4: Muscles don't just grow and grow like they don't just go, hey,

459
00:22:01,367 --> 00:22:04,967
Speaker 4: you know what, my biceps and my triceps and my pecs.

460
00:22:05,007 --> 00:22:07,647
Speaker 4: Because have you seen Zacha Fron lately? He used to

461
00:22:07,687 --> 00:22:10,607
Speaker 4: be like a not like a rodent boyfriend, but like

462
00:22:10,647 --> 00:22:14,367
Speaker 4: a you know, a light guy in high school, musical

463
00:22:14,927 --> 00:22:20,167
Speaker 4: sweet looking guy, but not like muscly leading man, alpha,

464
00:22:20,407 --> 00:22:23,687
Speaker 4: Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, George Clooney kind of not that

465
00:22:23,927 --> 00:22:26,527
Speaker 4: vibe and now he is that vibe.

466
00:22:26,767 --> 00:22:28,767
Speaker 3: And he appeared in The Iron Claw, so that was

467
00:22:28,807 --> 00:22:30,927
Speaker 3: another thing. It's not marveled on a lot of he

468
00:22:31,007 --> 00:22:33,447
Speaker 3: looks like he's wearing a Marvel movie. He's like, now, Chris,

469
00:22:33,487 --> 00:22:37,327
Speaker 3: hem'sworth that kind of body. So that can also change

470
00:22:37,367 --> 00:22:39,607
Speaker 3: the way that your face appears, right, Like your muscle mass,

471
00:22:39,607 --> 00:22:41,647
Speaker 3: your weight, all of that can change how your face appears.

472
00:22:41,847 --> 00:22:43,967
Speaker 3: But what I want to know is do we all

473
00:22:43,967 --> 00:22:46,287
Speaker 3: need to leave the man alone. He's got his story,

474
00:22:46,607 --> 00:22:49,007
Speaker 3: He's told us his story. What doesn't matter what we

475
00:22:49,047 --> 00:22:50,047
Speaker 3: think about his story.

476
00:22:50,167 --> 00:22:53,207
Speaker 2: Here's the tricky bit, right because I am a bleeding heart.

477
00:22:53,327 --> 00:22:57,127
Speaker 2: I'm like pau Zac. Whether it's true or not about

478
00:22:57,167 --> 00:22:59,887
Speaker 2: the jaw, I don't really care. There is no question

479
00:22:59,967 --> 00:23:02,647
Speaker 2: that his face has changed. And the thing is is

480
00:23:02,687 --> 00:23:04,407
Speaker 2: Mia said last week, because we're talking about watching this

481
00:23:04,447 --> 00:23:05,887
Speaker 2: film and I was like, can't wait to watch it,

482
00:23:06,167 --> 00:23:08,247
Speaker 2: and she said, he looks like he's been created by

483
00:23:08,407 --> 00:23:12,247
Speaker 2: AI and is exactly what he looks like. It's entirely

484
00:23:12,327 --> 00:23:13,767
Speaker 2: up to him what he wants to do to his face,

485
00:23:13,767 --> 00:23:15,367
Speaker 2: and it's entirely up to him what story he wants

486
00:23:15,367 --> 00:23:17,567
Speaker 2: to tell us about it. The reason everyone's talking about

487
00:23:17,567 --> 00:23:20,327
Speaker 2: it is because it's very distracting, and it's not good

488
00:23:20,727 --> 00:23:24,087
Speaker 2: for movies, for acting, for careers to not be able

489
00:23:24,127 --> 00:23:26,007
Speaker 2: to see a human when you're looking at the screen.

490
00:23:26,327 --> 00:23:27,247
Speaker 2: I think it's really.

491
00:23:27,007 --> 00:23:31,287
Speaker 4: Difficult because of course men are also subject to beauty standards,

492
00:23:31,287 --> 00:23:34,647
Speaker 4: and anyone in Hollywood, my heart goes out to them

493
00:23:34,647 --> 00:23:37,207
Speaker 4: in terms of how hard it must be to be

494
00:23:37,287 --> 00:23:40,887
Speaker 4: scrutinized in that way and have your face and body

495
00:23:41,127 --> 00:23:41,767
Speaker 4: talked about.

496
00:23:42,687 --> 00:23:43,967
Speaker 1: That's a shame. That's difficult.

497
00:23:44,007 --> 00:23:46,007
Speaker 4: There's other difficult things that other people have to deal

498
00:23:46,047 --> 00:23:48,887
Speaker 4: with in other professions. But what I think this is

499
00:23:49,327 --> 00:23:53,047
Speaker 4: and what I push back on, is when we are

500
00:23:53,127 --> 00:23:55,967
Speaker 4: being gas lit and told there's nothing to see here.

501
00:23:56,407 --> 00:23:59,927
Speaker 4: It's a little bit like Joe Biden's saying, God, she

502
00:24:00,007 --> 00:24:01,687
Speaker 4: is so up, a little bit like Joe Biden's saying

503
00:24:01,767 --> 00:24:02,767
Speaker 4: I've just had a bad night.

504
00:24:02,847 --> 00:24:05,847
Speaker 1: I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. It's actually it's not fine.

505
00:24:05,927 --> 00:24:07,847
Speaker 3: Zac Efron isn't saying there's nothing to see here. He's

506
00:24:07,847 --> 00:24:09,127
Speaker 3: saying there is something to see here.

507
00:24:09,287 --> 00:24:12,727
Speaker 4: This comes back to we're not comfortable with people being

508
00:24:12,767 --> 00:24:16,047
Speaker 4: honest and saying I had all this surgery because I

509
00:24:16,047 --> 00:24:18,247
Speaker 4: didn't like the way I looked, or I wanted to

510
00:24:18,247 --> 00:24:20,487
Speaker 4: get different roles, or I was trying to look more.

511
00:24:20,407 --> 00:24:23,127
Speaker 3: Like especially from a man, Christ's no way I'm mad

512
00:24:23,207 --> 00:24:23,727
Speaker 3: for anyone.

513
00:24:24,047 --> 00:24:26,327
Speaker 4: Like women can't say it either, Like every Kardashian has

514
00:24:26,367 --> 00:24:28,007
Speaker 4: had to go I did nothing to my face, and

515
00:24:28,047 --> 00:24:30,767
Speaker 4: other actresses have said I just used sunscreen, and j

516
00:24:30,927 --> 00:24:32,807
Speaker 4: Lo says, I just use olive oil, and it's like,

517
00:24:32,967 --> 00:24:35,927
Speaker 4: come on, and the reason that we push back and

518
00:24:35,967 --> 00:24:38,287
Speaker 4: I think that we get angry, and it's a shame

519
00:24:38,367 --> 00:24:43,567
Speaker 4: that that anger is at that individual. It's more stop

520
00:24:43,767 --> 00:24:46,407
Speaker 4: treating us like we're idiots, because it's not just his

521
00:24:46,527 --> 00:24:49,407
Speaker 4: jawline that's different. It's his lips, it's his eyes, it's

522
00:24:49,407 --> 00:24:53,287
Speaker 4: his forehead, it's his hairline, it's his body, it's everything,

523
00:24:53,327 --> 00:24:55,287
Speaker 4: like it didn't all crash into the fountain.

524
00:24:55,807 --> 00:24:59,207
Speaker 3: I think we can criticize a performance and ultimately, you

525
00:24:59,247 --> 00:25:01,127
Speaker 3: know where the consumers and the reviewers and we can

526
00:25:01,127 --> 00:25:02,927
Speaker 3: say whether we liked that film or whether we thought

527
00:25:02,967 --> 00:25:08,327
Speaker 3: the performance was believable. But trolling people and saying what's.

528
00:25:08,207 --> 00:25:10,607
Speaker 1: The difference between troll and saying.

529
00:25:12,287 --> 00:25:15,687
Speaker 3: Abstrawed Parkward and saying like that's cruel.

530
00:25:16,127 --> 00:25:18,847
Speaker 1: I agree with that's incredibly cruel. That's incredibly cruel.

531
00:25:18,887 --> 00:25:22,647
Speaker 4: I agree, But how much of this is a recalibration

532
00:25:22,927 --> 00:25:25,607
Speaker 4: where it's a bit the m prisoner closed where we're going, Hey,

533
00:25:26,607 --> 00:25:27,807
Speaker 4: we can see this.

534
00:25:28,167 --> 00:25:29,167
Speaker 1: I don't think it's me.

535
00:25:29,287 --> 00:25:31,767
Speaker 3: Doing that lately. We've been doing this. We did it

536
00:25:31,767 --> 00:25:33,887
Speaker 3: to Amy Schumer. I say that we as in like

537
00:25:34,007 --> 00:25:36,447
Speaker 3: the culture, because this is what all the websites do.

538
00:25:36,887 --> 00:25:39,487
Speaker 3: Fans say Amy Schumer looks different, and then they just

539
00:25:39,607 --> 00:25:41,767
Speaker 3: post a whole lot of horrible stuff. And she came

540
00:25:41,807 --> 00:25:44,127
Speaker 3: out and said, actually, I have a health issue which

541
00:25:44,207 --> 00:25:46,527
Speaker 3: has changed the shape of my face. We did it

542
00:25:46,527 --> 00:25:49,207
Speaker 3: to Christina Applegate who came out and said, actually, I

543
00:25:49,247 --> 00:25:51,007
Speaker 3: have MS and it has changed the shape of my

544
00:25:51,047 --> 00:25:53,407
Speaker 3: face and I have put on weight and things have changed.

545
00:25:54,207 --> 00:25:56,887
Speaker 3: Like how many times does that need to happen? Do

546
00:25:56,967 --> 00:25:58,607
Speaker 3: we need a medical certificate?

547
00:25:58,767 --> 00:25:58,847
Speaker 4: No?

548
00:25:59,087 --> 00:26:01,287
Speaker 3: Or can they just put up a flag and go, hey,

549
00:26:01,367 --> 00:26:03,927
Speaker 3: stop commenting on my appearance. I've got a story.

550
00:26:04,007 --> 00:26:06,247
Speaker 4: We will always comment on the appearance of people who

551
00:26:06,247 --> 00:26:08,847
Speaker 4: were paid for what they look like. I mean, and

552
00:26:08,927 --> 00:26:11,607
Speaker 4: I think we also call bullshit on this idea that

553
00:26:11,927 --> 00:26:14,567
Speaker 4: remember when Jennifer Aniston or I can't remember what celebrity was.

554
00:26:14,607 --> 00:26:16,167
Speaker 4: I think it was her, But a lot of celebrities

555
00:26:16,327 --> 00:26:19,167
Speaker 4: who've clearly got different noses say I had to have

556
00:26:19,287 --> 00:26:21,567
Speaker 4: it corrected for a deviated septum. I know people who

557
00:26:21,647 --> 00:26:24,887
Speaker 4: had deviated septums, yes, Or Tory Spelling who said that

558
00:26:24,927 --> 00:26:26,887
Speaker 4: she had a different nose because she got attacked on

559
00:26:26,927 --> 00:26:28,247
Speaker 4: the nose by her pet parrot.

560
00:26:28,807 --> 00:26:29,767
Speaker 1: Like, guys, come on.

561
00:26:29,767 --> 00:26:31,887
Speaker 3: What do we do once they tell us that? Because

562
00:26:32,007 --> 00:26:33,767
Speaker 3: when I was in primary school, there was a kid,

563
00:26:33,847 --> 00:26:36,927
Speaker 3: a young boy who had really bushy eyebrows, right, and

564
00:26:36,967 --> 00:26:39,727
Speaker 3: he came to school one day and he pretty much

565
00:26:39,767 --> 00:26:42,567
Speaker 3: shaped them off. Everyone gave him a really hard time, right,

566
00:26:42,607 --> 00:26:45,527
Speaker 3: and he said, I stepped on my razor in the

567
00:26:45,567 --> 00:26:49,647
Speaker 3: shower and it flipped up. So every kid has a

568
00:26:49,727 --> 00:26:52,447
Speaker 3: choice in that moment to look at that kid and go,

569
00:26:52,967 --> 00:26:54,767
Speaker 3: do I keep pushing you and making fun of you,

570
00:26:55,247 --> 00:26:59,687
Speaker 3: or do I just move on? Because clearly there's some pain.

571
00:26:59,887 --> 00:27:02,127
Speaker 3: We move already there and then we move on. And

572
00:27:02,167 --> 00:27:02,767
Speaker 3: that's my point.

573
00:27:02,927 --> 00:27:04,967
Speaker 2: But my concern is, because I agree we move on.

574
00:27:05,007 --> 00:27:08,967
Speaker 2: If jack Efron jack Efron Zach Cafron wants to tell

575
00:27:09,007 --> 00:27:11,567
Speaker 2: us about his jaw and his fountain. That's fine with me.

576
00:27:11,807 --> 00:27:15,447
Speaker 2: My concern is more, we're going to get so used

577
00:27:15,447 --> 00:27:19,607
Speaker 2: to seeing people only people who look like they have

578
00:27:19,687 --> 00:27:25,887
Speaker 2: been generated by a mixture of digital retouching surgery AI.

579
00:27:26,087 --> 00:27:28,487
Speaker 2: I mean, my daughters showed me AI imagery of celebrities

580
00:27:28,487 --> 00:27:30,607
Speaker 2: all the time that isn't real, like some celebrity doing

581
00:27:30,607 --> 00:27:32,567
Speaker 2: some TikTok dance and all those things, and you're looking

582
00:27:32,607 --> 00:27:35,087
Speaker 2: and looking for the clues. Right, We're going to get

583
00:27:35,127 --> 00:27:38,567
Speaker 2: so used to it that it entirely desensitizes us to

584
00:27:38,607 --> 00:27:41,167
Speaker 2: what real faces look like and what real emotions look like.

585
00:27:41,207 --> 00:27:43,927
Speaker 2: And I know that's like a spectrum of an argument

586
00:27:43,927 --> 00:27:46,047
Speaker 2: that's been going on since the first needle went into

587
00:27:46,087 --> 00:27:49,847
Speaker 2: somebody's face. But I'm more concerned about that. I'm all

588
00:27:49,887 --> 00:27:52,567
Speaker 2: for zac Efron having his privacy, having his own reasons

589
00:27:52,607 --> 00:27:55,047
Speaker 2: why he wants to look the way he looks and

590
00:27:55,087 --> 00:27:57,207
Speaker 2: what he wants to tell us about it. But watching

591
00:27:57,287 --> 00:27:59,927
Speaker 2: that film and thinking that we were supposed.

592
00:27:59,527 --> 00:28:01,727
Speaker 4: To be pretending that he didn't it was so I

593
00:28:01,767 --> 00:28:05,727
Speaker 4: think you named the word whole, which is distracting. It's

594
00:28:05,887 --> 00:28:09,407
Speaker 4: really really distracting. And I find this all the time

595
00:28:09,487 --> 00:28:12,367
Speaker 4: when I'm watching, particularly women of a certain age and

596
00:28:12,407 --> 00:28:13,647
Speaker 4: the technology.

597
00:28:13,087 --> 00:28:14,967
Speaker 1: That's used, plus the surgery that they've had.

598
00:28:15,447 --> 00:28:18,647
Speaker 4: I find it really really distracting, and I can't watch

599
00:28:18,687 --> 00:28:20,567
Speaker 4: these films because it looks like they're not human.

600
00:28:20,727 --> 00:28:22,807
Speaker 2: If the movie's got enough, you sort of shel it

601
00:28:22,807 --> 00:28:24,567
Speaker 2: and you get past it. So the first ten minutes

602
00:28:24,567 --> 00:28:27,367
Speaker 2: of this movie, I was like, whoa, we're in a

603
00:28:27,407 --> 00:28:30,047
Speaker 2: new world here. And then I sort of went, Okay,

604
00:28:30,087 --> 00:28:32,087
Speaker 2: shut up, Polly, Like you're telling yourself to shut up

605
00:28:32,127 --> 00:28:34,687
Speaker 2: and start investing in the show. If we're not even

606
00:28:34,727 --> 00:28:36,887
Speaker 2: allowed to call it out a little bit, it just

607
00:28:36,927 --> 00:28:39,487
Speaker 2: feels that we're as fake as that image on the screen.

608
00:28:39,807 --> 00:28:42,927
Speaker 3: Out Louders jump into the Mumma out Louders Facebook group

609
00:28:42,967 --> 00:28:45,407
Speaker 3: and tell us what you think. Have you watched the movie?

610
00:28:45,527 --> 00:28:47,687
Speaker 3: Did you notice and do you reckon that we just

611
00:28:47,727 --> 00:28:49,487
Speaker 3: accept the story and move on. Yes, yes we do.

612
00:28:50,967 --> 00:28:51,567
Speaker 2: Out Louders.

613
00:28:51,567 --> 00:28:53,327
Speaker 4: If you want to listen to us every day of

614
00:28:53,327 --> 00:28:56,127
Speaker 4: the week, you can get access to exclusive segments on

615
00:28:56,207 --> 00:29:00,487
Speaker 4: Tuesdays and Thursdays by becoming a mum mea subscriber. Follow

616
00:29:00,527 --> 00:29:03,047
Speaker 4: the link in the show notes to subscribe and support us.

617
00:29:03,207 --> 00:29:10,167
Speaker 4: And a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

618
00:29:11,247 --> 00:29:13,207
Speaker 7: A woman that has value is not going to put

619
00:29:13,247 --> 00:29:15,047
Speaker 7: herself on the Internet for any man to just be

620
00:29:15,087 --> 00:29:16,927
Speaker 7: able to comment and say, oh, you're beautiful or this

621
00:29:16,967 --> 00:29:20,367
Speaker 7: year that them compliments don't flatter her, they don't make her.

622
00:29:20,487 --> 00:29:23,487
Speaker 7: Because she values herself hired than what men think of her.

623
00:29:23,807 --> 00:29:25,607
Speaker 7: She rates herself high value.

624
00:29:25,647 --> 00:29:31,887
Speaker 5: Woman does this, she prioritizes this compatibility over a chemistry.

625
00:29:32,447 --> 00:29:34,447
Speaker 5: I'm not a woman, but if I was a woman,

626
00:29:34,487 --> 00:29:36,567
Speaker 5: I'm not paying out a restaurant. I'm not choosing word

627
00:29:36,607 --> 00:29:37,087
Speaker 5: to go eat.

628
00:29:37,207 --> 00:29:39,527
Speaker 6: I'm not making the plans for the evening. If I

629
00:29:39,727 --> 00:29:41,287
Speaker 6: was a woman, I would.

630
00:29:41,167 --> 00:29:45,887
Speaker 3: The man the man that I be treated like a queen.

631
00:29:46,247 --> 00:29:49,087
Speaker 4: Earlier this year, a global study found that one generation

632
00:29:49,207 --> 00:29:52,407
Speaker 4: of men more than any other, thinks that feminism has

633
00:29:52,487 --> 00:29:55,207
Speaker 4: gone too far. If I asked you to guess, you

634
00:29:55,287 --> 00:29:57,687
Speaker 4: might think it was boomer men who might be nostalgic

635
00:29:57,727 --> 00:29:59,687
Speaker 4: for the days when you could pinch your waitress on

636
00:29:59,727 --> 00:30:02,727
Speaker 4: the bum and ask your female co worker to make

637
00:30:02,767 --> 00:30:05,407
Speaker 4: you a cup of tea oe for good days. But

638
00:30:05,487 --> 00:30:08,207
Speaker 4: it's actually not boomer men. It's jen Z men who

639
00:30:08,207 --> 00:30:10,527
Speaker 4: are pushing back the hardest. Sixty percent of young men

640
00:30:10,567 --> 00:30:14,287
Speaker 4: believe that the push for women's equality discriminated against men

641
00:30:14,407 --> 00:30:16,687
Speaker 4: and that life will be harder for men than women

642
00:30:17,127 --> 00:30:20,807
Speaker 4: twenty years from now. And it's interesting because these are

643
00:30:20,847 --> 00:30:23,287
Speaker 4: the guys that are growing up with me Too and

644
00:30:23,367 --> 00:30:27,247
Speaker 4: Australia's first female Prime minister and the coverage of domestic

645
00:30:27,327 --> 00:30:32,607
Speaker 4: violence protests. But they are the same guys that are

646
00:30:32,727 --> 00:30:36,807
Speaker 4: being attracted to misogynists like Andrew Tate, who are getting

647
00:30:36,847 --> 00:30:41,327
Speaker 4: this global following among young men and boys. And to

648
00:30:41,367 --> 00:30:43,727
Speaker 4: counter this interesting a few weeks ago there was a

649
00:30:43,807 --> 00:30:46,927
Speaker 4: government campaign that showed a young teenage boy on his

650
00:30:46,967 --> 00:30:49,367
Speaker 4: phone and all the hidden forms of disrespect that he's

651
00:30:49,727 --> 00:30:52,487
Speaker 4: exposed to on his phone, and it sort of shows

652
00:30:52,527 --> 00:30:55,647
Speaker 4: all the various forms of misogynistic content that young people

653
00:30:56,207 --> 00:30:59,647
Speaker 4: see and hear and how it can escalate to violence

654
00:30:59,687 --> 00:31:01,687
Speaker 4: and negative attitudes about women.

655
00:31:02,807 --> 00:31:06,127
Speaker 3: Life is a horror for a status what you be.

656
00:31:06,247 --> 00:31:08,487
Speaker 5: Called to control them?

657
00:31:09,327 --> 00:31:09,687
Speaker 2: Control?

658
00:31:09,767 --> 00:31:10,767
Speaker 6: As a man?

659
00:31:10,967 --> 00:31:11,527
Speaker 5: You're a vader?

660
00:31:11,567 --> 00:31:12,287
Speaker 4: Who are you texting?

661
00:31:12,447 --> 00:31:13,847
Speaker 3: I know you like me on scene.

662
00:31:15,607 --> 00:31:18,207
Speaker 1: A man with James James?

663
00:31:19,487 --> 00:31:25,767
Speaker 2: All right, yeah, smarting M So you're definitely right.

664
00:31:26,167 --> 00:31:29,247
Speaker 7: Well, do you know what's influencing your kids? Learn the

665
00:31:29,327 --> 00:31:32,007
Speaker 7: hidden trends of disrespect before they lead to violence.

666
00:31:32,327 --> 00:31:34,487
Speaker 4: Something that we wanted to drill into today is a

667
00:31:34,527 --> 00:31:38,127
Speaker 4: concept in a lot of these Andrew Tait style videos,

668
00:31:38,167 --> 00:31:41,407
Speaker 4: because it's not just him who's out there sprouting this stuff.

669
00:31:41,447 --> 00:31:44,927
Speaker 4: It's lots of other influencers who are reaching young men

670
00:31:44,967 --> 00:31:48,527
Speaker 4: and boys, and it's the concept of the high value woman.

671
00:31:49,207 --> 00:31:51,047
Speaker 4: There was an article written for the site The Adult

672
00:31:51,087 --> 00:31:53,927
Speaker 4: Man by a man called Joshua Sigaphus that was called

673
00:31:53,927 --> 00:31:56,607
Speaker 4: the fifteen traits of a high Value Woman and why

674
00:31:56,647 --> 00:32:00,127
Speaker 4: you shouldn't settle. So today we were just going to

675
00:32:00,127 --> 00:32:03,367
Speaker 4: go through some of those traits because it's not as

676
00:32:03,407 --> 00:32:05,967
Speaker 4: simple as just sort of if a woman is a

677
00:32:06,007 --> 00:32:09,207
Speaker 4: slush and has ever had sex, then she's a lot

678
00:32:09,487 --> 00:32:12,767
Speaker 4: value woman. It's not just that it sort of starts

679
00:32:13,887 --> 00:32:15,647
Speaker 4: in this way. If you've ever been on a date

680
00:32:15,767 --> 00:32:19,047
Speaker 4: or shared a bedroom with a contentious, argumentative, lazy, or

681
00:32:19,087 --> 00:32:22,647
Speaker 4: hateful woman, then you probably know exactly what I'm talking

682
00:32:22,687 --> 00:32:25,967
Speaker 4: about when I describe a high and a low value woman,

683
00:32:27,047 --> 00:32:30,687
Speaker 4: says this writer. Now, I'm just going to read you

684
00:32:30,767 --> 00:32:32,647
Speaker 4: a couple and I'm going to ask you guys to

685
00:32:32,727 --> 00:32:35,287
Speaker 4: read a couple more whole. One of them is she

686
00:32:35,447 --> 00:32:38,207
Speaker 4: cares about her appearance. What are the points under that?

687
00:32:38,487 --> 00:32:42,447
Speaker 2: So they say youth, beauty, and fertility are primary attractive

688
00:32:42,487 --> 00:32:48,407
Speaker 2: metrics for women. So depressing. I'm so depressed already. High

689
00:32:48,487 --> 00:32:51,247
Speaker 2: value women care about their appearents, take pride in being beautiful,

690
00:32:51,287 --> 00:32:53,647
Speaker 2: and put effort into their fertility cues.

691
00:32:53,727 --> 00:32:54,527
Speaker 3: What does that mean.

692
00:32:54,727 --> 00:32:57,527
Speaker 2: I think it means showing you that she is young

693
00:32:57,767 --> 00:33:02,727
Speaker 2: and plump of ovary for you as a man looking

694
00:33:02,767 --> 00:33:04,967
Speaker 2: for a high value woman. This really comes down to

695
00:33:05,047 --> 00:33:08,407
Speaker 2: one simple principle. Only entertain women who care about their

696
00:33:08,407 --> 00:33:11,407
Speaker 2: appearance and put work into making themselves as beautiful as possible.

697
00:33:11,607 --> 00:33:13,847
Speaker 2: When I think about this, I think about you know,

698
00:33:13,887 --> 00:33:16,127
Speaker 2: when you look at all the women in the public

699
00:33:16,127 --> 00:33:19,047
Speaker 2: eye and all kinds of different ways, right, and I'm

700
00:33:19,047 --> 00:33:21,367
Speaker 2: thinking about politics since we're just talking about that. All

701
00:33:21,407 --> 00:33:24,327
Speaker 2: the women who live in like Trump world have to

702
00:33:24,367 --> 00:33:27,527
Speaker 2: look a certain way. They have to be very groomed,

703
00:33:27,887 --> 00:33:30,967
Speaker 2: they have to be very like It's like Kelly from

704
00:33:31,007 --> 00:33:35,127
Speaker 2: the DCC's School of Womandom. Always have your makeupon, always

705
00:33:35,127 --> 00:33:38,247
Speaker 2: be groomed, Always be wearing type fitting closet, Show your

706
00:33:38,367 --> 00:33:41,367
Speaker 2: lovely figure that you work hard to maintain. Always be

707
00:33:41,607 --> 00:33:43,647
Speaker 2: pleasing to the eye of a male. Do not be

708
00:33:43,727 --> 00:33:47,327
Speaker 2: turning up to practice in your sweatpants with no makeupon

709
00:33:47,367 --> 00:33:50,247
Speaker 2: and you haven't brushed your hair? What are use lovenly? Yeah.

710
00:33:50,527 --> 00:33:54,647
Speaker 3: Number three is that she's agreeable. So high value women

711
00:33:54,807 --> 00:33:58,527
Speaker 3: understand that being an agreeable, pleasant partner makes them more

712
00:33:58,527 --> 00:34:02,127
Speaker 3: attractive and valuable. They understand that if they want to

713
00:34:02,167 --> 00:34:04,367
Speaker 3: walk with a high value man, they need to relinquish

714
00:34:04,527 --> 00:34:08,087
Speaker 3: control of the frame of the relationship and trust him

715
00:34:08,287 --> 00:34:12,607
Speaker 3: to be the leader. So basically, agreeable is code for submissive.

716
00:34:13,287 --> 00:34:15,927
Speaker 3: The first one here is actually she embraces femininity, which

717
00:34:15,927 --> 00:34:18,247
Speaker 3: is one of the ones I find most interesting because

718
00:34:18,287 --> 00:34:22,327
Speaker 3: I am seeing that a lot on social where people

719
00:34:22,487 --> 00:34:25,847
Speaker 3: say embrace or lean into your femininity. A lot of

720
00:34:25,847 --> 00:34:28,847
Speaker 3: women that I know who have been dating for ages

721
00:34:28,847 --> 00:34:34,247
Speaker 3: and haven't found a person get bunneled into this world

722
00:34:34,487 --> 00:34:37,767
Speaker 3: of you've lost your femininity, you've leaned too far into

723
00:34:37,807 --> 00:34:40,367
Speaker 3: your masculine, and you need to lean back into your

724
00:34:40,407 --> 00:34:43,887
Speaker 3: feminine and all those you're wearing. Yes, I keep trying

725
00:34:43,887 --> 00:34:47,127
Speaker 3: to work out exactly what it means, and I went

726
00:34:47,447 --> 00:34:50,847
Speaker 3: on a deep dive, and it means like you listen

727
00:34:50,887 --> 00:34:53,647
Speaker 3: to your intuition rather than using logic. So I guess

728
00:34:53,647 --> 00:34:56,167
Speaker 3: you don't use your brain, is what I'm reading there,

729
00:34:56,567 --> 00:34:56,967
Speaker 3: Things like.

730
00:34:56,967 --> 00:34:59,687
Speaker 1: That you should lean into your intuition and not logic.

731
00:34:59,807 --> 00:35:05,207
Speaker 3: Yeah, empathy and generosity and kindness and basically were very passive,

732
00:35:05,687 --> 00:35:09,287
Speaker 3: very very passive. Yeah, like you might go and be

733
00:35:09,367 --> 00:35:11,767
Speaker 3: a leader in your workplace, but you have to leave

734
00:35:11,767 --> 00:35:13,767
Speaker 3: that at work because a man is not going to

735
00:35:13,847 --> 00:35:15,807
Speaker 3: want that because it's not leaning into your feminine.

736
00:35:15,847 --> 00:35:18,527
Speaker 4: What's fascinating about this whole idea of the high value

737
00:35:18,567 --> 00:35:22,047
Speaker 4: women is a lot of the people who are espousing

738
00:35:22,047 --> 00:35:24,327
Speaker 4: this are also women, right, And this is where it's

739
00:35:24,407 --> 00:35:29,287
Speaker 4: so clever because it co opts women into the patriarchy

740
00:35:29,847 --> 00:35:31,647
Speaker 4: because who doesn't want to be a high value woman?

741
00:35:31,727 --> 00:35:31,887
Speaker 2: Right?

742
00:35:31,967 --> 00:35:33,607
Speaker 4: Like I want to be a high value woman because

743
00:35:33,647 --> 00:35:36,047
Speaker 4: that sounds great. I'm not a low value woman. I'm

744
00:35:36,287 --> 00:35:38,527
Speaker 4: a high value woman. So when I look at what

745
00:35:38,647 --> 00:35:42,087
Speaker 4: it takes to be a high value woman, all of

746
00:35:42,127 --> 00:35:47,767
Speaker 4: those things are about submission and about reinforcing patriarchal standard.

747
00:35:47,807 --> 00:35:51,807
Speaker 4: So another one is she cares about her reputation? Does

748
00:35:51,807 --> 00:35:54,687
Speaker 4: she post nude or semi nude photos on Instagram? Or

749
00:35:54,727 --> 00:35:56,807
Speaker 4: is she the type of woman who takes her reputation

750
00:35:57,287 --> 00:36:02,447
Speaker 4: more seriously than that, as if equating how you present

751
00:36:02,487 --> 00:36:05,327
Speaker 4: yourself to the world cheapens your value.

752
00:36:05,407 --> 00:36:07,247
Speaker 1: Now, that is a tale as old as time.

753
00:36:07,647 --> 00:36:11,727
Speaker 3: So they've got she's always improving herself. She's a peacemaker,

754
00:36:12,167 --> 00:36:15,487
Speaker 3: she's not a victim. She saves her sexual power for

755
00:36:15,567 --> 00:36:19,887
Speaker 3: one man. I'm gonna push back, right, obviously there is

756
00:36:19,927 --> 00:36:22,407
Speaker 3: something incredibly sexist about this. But while I was away,

757
00:36:22,527 --> 00:36:24,767
Speaker 3: I listened to an episode of Mummy out Loud where

758
00:36:24,767 --> 00:36:27,527
Speaker 3: you talked about six or five blue eyes. Yeah, guy

759
00:36:27,567 --> 00:36:30,007
Speaker 3: who works in finance, tell me what the difference is.

760
00:36:30,287 --> 00:36:32,047
Speaker 1: There isn't one at all.

761
00:36:32,287 --> 00:36:35,527
Speaker 3: And that's the thing. There are certain circles of women

762
00:36:35,767 --> 00:36:38,327
Speaker 3: who would write a list of a high value man

763
00:36:38,647 --> 00:36:41,967
Speaker 3: and it would be just as reductive and just as

764
00:36:42,007 --> 00:36:48,007
Speaker 3: harmful and draw a box around Masculinity's just as suffocating.

765
00:36:47,647 --> 00:36:51,167
Speaker 2: Entirely true, but the parameters would be different. Because the

766
00:36:51,207 --> 00:36:55,647
Speaker 2: whole point about six ' five Finance Trust Fund is

767
00:36:56,207 --> 00:36:59,447
Speaker 2: buying into these ancient ideas that men it's about ambition

768
00:36:59,567 --> 00:37:02,447
Speaker 2: and money and status, and women it's about beauty, fertility,

769
00:37:02,527 --> 00:37:05,647
Speaker 2: submissive like. So the reason I pushed back on this

770
00:37:05,647 --> 00:37:08,247
Speaker 2: whole like, who's making the decisions.

771
00:37:07,727 --> 00:37:10,287
Speaker 3: About what the value is right, because the whole.

772
00:37:10,087 --> 00:37:12,207
Speaker 2: Point of this is you only get to choose if

773
00:37:12,247 --> 00:37:15,127
Speaker 2: you're in the position of power. And what we're being

774
00:37:15,167 --> 00:37:17,607
Speaker 2: told over and over again about young men in particular,

775
00:37:17,887 --> 00:37:19,887
Speaker 2: is that they're no longer in the position of power.

776
00:37:20,247 --> 00:37:23,607
Speaker 2: Women are graduating high school with better marks, taking up

777
00:37:23,607 --> 00:37:27,207
Speaker 2: more places at university, beginning to close the gap, taking

778
00:37:27,287 --> 00:37:30,327
Speaker 2: jobs from them, blah blah blah. So in theory, they're

779
00:37:30,367 --> 00:37:32,367
Speaker 2: now moving up into the power seat and they get

780
00:37:32,407 --> 00:37:34,647
Speaker 2: to choose. And I've listened to a million podcasts and

781
00:37:34,647 --> 00:37:37,527
Speaker 2: read things from guys telling guys how to also be

782
00:37:37,607 --> 00:37:40,407
Speaker 2: high status so that women want them rather than the

783
00:37:40,527 --> 00:37:41,807
Speaker 2: sort of schlubby loser.

784
00:37:42,087 --> 00:37:44,847
Speaker 1: But isn't that just purely about being rich.

785
00:37:45,327 --> 00:37:47,647
Speaker 2: It's still all about your values, Because if I was

786
00:37:47,727 --> 00:37:50,527
Speaker 2: riding my list, it wouldn't be about how much money

787
00:37:50,527 --> 00:37:52,567
Speaker 2: he earn, how tall he was, what color his eyes were.

788
00:37:52,607 --> 00:37:54,287
Speaker 2: It wouldn't be this. Do you know what I mean?

789
00:37:54,607 --> 00:37:56,487
Speaker 2: This is a very particular.

790
00:37:56,047 --> 00:37:59,207
Speaker 4: Kind of value system, But what it is is gender roles.

791
00:37:59,327 --> 00:38:03,127
Speaker 4: So saying gender quality is pushing both men and women

792
00:38:03,727 --> 00:38:06,287
Speaker 4: to feel nostalgic for gender roles.

793
00:38:06,367 --> 00:38:07,887
Speaker 3: Well, I don't think women would.

794
00:38:07,687 --> 00:38:11,327
Speaker 1: Be looked after like traadois I reckon. I've change in finance.

795
00:38:11,447 --> 00:38:13,367
Speaker 3: I've changed my mind about this because we're talking about

796
00:38:13,407 --> 00:38:15,647
Speaker 3: it recently with the Julia Gillard thing, and I agree

797
00:38:15,727 --> 00:38:18,247
Speaker 3: feminism probably needs to do a better job of bringing

798
00:38:18,287 --> 00:38:22,127
Speaker 3: young men along with us. That's start evidently, but you'll

799
00:38:22,167 --> 00:38:25,687
Speaker 3: put that on a when there's a lack of social cohesion,

800
00:38:25,887 --> 00:38:28,447
Speaker 3: which we just saw in the previous segment.

801
00:38:28,487 --> 00:38:30,047
Speaker 2: Social cohesion is gone.

802
00:38:30,287 --> 00:38:31,407
Speaker 3: Social cohesion is gone.

803
00:38:31,447 --> 00:38:33,367
Speaker 2: I think that's algorithm's rule.

804
00:38:33,367 --> 00:38:35,407
Speaker 3: Things now, we don't know. When we look at the

805
00:38:35,447 --> 00:38:39,487
Speaker 3: future five, ten, fifteen years ahead, things are very uncertain

806
00:38:39,967 --> 00:38:42,167
Speaker 3: and the ground is shifting beneath our feet. And I

807
00:38:42,207 --> 00:38:46,967
Speaker 3: think at moments at crossroads, we need to grip onto

808
00:38:46,967 --> 00:38:49,287
Speaker 3: something that we understand, and that is very simple. And

809
00:38:49,327 --> 00:38:51,407
Speaker 3: I wonder if that's to do with what we're seeing

810
00:38:51,727 --> 00:38:53,567
Speaker 3: with a bit of a regression when it comes to

811
00:38:53,647 --> 00:38:58,007
Speaker 3: traditional gender roles that they make us feel say safe,

812
00:38:58,207 --> 00:39:00,127
Speaker 3: that it's like, at least I can hold onto this

813
00:39:00,727 --> 00:39:02,887
Speaker 3: and I can mimic this, because there was a clear

814
00:39:02,887 --> 00:39:06,727
Speaker 3: distinction between the two, whereas everything else feels like chaos.

815
00:39:06,767 --> 00:39:10,007
Speaker 2: But they didn't make women safe. They never did. That's

816
00:39:10,087 --> 00:39:13,127
Speaker 2: the big lie here, which is the same conversation that

817
00:39:13,167 --> 00:39:15,887
Speaker 2: we had really about that and about the opposite is

818
00:39:15,967 --> 00:39:18,207
Speaker 2: the women when they don't have power and they don't

819
00:39:18,207 --> 00:39:21,207
Speaker 2: have financial autonomy and they're being treated as a possession,

820
00:39:21,247 --> 00:39:24,207
Speaker 2: they're not safe, They're never safe, so they're being sold

821
00:39:24,247 --> 00:39:26,887
Speaker 2: a lie. I think really it's about pushing back on

822
00:39:26,967 --> 00:39:30,207
Speaker 2: both of these ideas that you know, there's a battle

823
00:39:30,247 --> 00:39:32,447
Speaker 2: for dominance here between the men and women, and maybe

824
00:39:32,487 --> 00:39:33,887
Speaker 2: the women are choosing, and what are they going to

825
00:39:33,927 --> 00:39:35,567
Speaker 2: want if they're the ones who get to make the choices,

826
00:39:35,567 --> 00:39:36,927
Speaker 2: and if the men are choosing, what are they going

827
00:39:37,007 --> 00:39:39,247
Speaker 2: to want? I know it sounds so polyanna, but it's

828
00:39:39,247 --> 00:39:41,727
Speaker 2: about back to the idea that we're all becoming less

829
00:39:41,807 --> 00:39:44,167
Speaker 2: human because we are living our lives on our phones

830
00:39:44,167 --> 00:39:47,007
Speaker 2: and we're watching people on our screens who don't even

831
00:39:47,047 --> 00:39:49,687
Speaker 2: look like humans anymore. Is don't we all just want

832
00:39:49,687 --> 00:39:52,087
Speaker 2: a good human? Don't we all just want our partners

833
00:39:52,087 --> 00:39:52,727
Speaker 2: to be good human?

834
00:39:52,807 --> 00:39:55,407
Speaker 4: I think that the bigger, more chilling aspect of all

835
00:39:55,447 --> 00:39:59,967
Speaker 4: of this is joining the dots between abortion rights being

836
00:40:00,007 --> 00:40:03,007
Speaker 4: round back in America. You can't have a quality for

837
00:40:03,047 --> 00:40:05,367
Speaker 4: women when women don't have bodily autonomy, and when women

838
00:40:05,367 --> 00:40:07,487
Speaker 4: don't have any control over how many children they have

839
00:40:07,607 --> 00:40:10,807
Speaker 4: or when they have them. So there's this idea on

840
00:40:10,887 --> 00:40:13,127
Speaker 4: the far right and on the right and conservative, and

841
00:40:13,207 --> 00:40:15,767
Speaker 4: some of it's religious and some of it's more idealistic

842
00:40:15,807 --> 00:40:19,047
Speaker 4: based that yes, things have gone too far and that

843
00:40:19,087 --> 00:40:21,407
Speaker 4: women need to get back in their place. And some

844
00:40:21,447 --> 00:40:25,127
Speaker 4: of the most chilling points here and not the expected ones,

845
00:40:25,167 --> 00:40:27,927
Speaker 4: about she has to look good and save her sexual

846
00:40:27,927 --> 00:40:31,647
Speaker 4: powerful one man, but things like she's a peacemaker. Now,

847
00:40:31,727 --> 00:40:33,607
Speaker 4: this goes on to say, is she the type of

848
00:40:33,647 --> 00:40:36,687
Speaker 4: woman who starts fights, arguments and drama or is she

849
00:40:36,727 --> 00:40:39,287
Speaker 4: the type of woman who builds, bridges men's relationships and

850
00:40:39,327 --> 00:40:42,007
Speaker 4: brings people together. There are plenty of dramatic women in

851
00:40:42,047 --> 00:40:44,847
Speaker 4: the world, but a truly high value woman will strive

852
00:40:44,927 --> 00:40:47,727
Speaker 4: to be a peacemaker, even when doing so isn't the

853
00:40:47,767 --> 00:40:50,767
Speaker 4: easiest thing. This is a trait to treasure highly in

854
00:40:50,807 --> 00:40:53,647
Speaker 4: a woman, and truth be told, there aren't very many

855
00:40:53,687 --> 00:40:57,727
Speaker 4: women nowadays who cultivate this skill. This is about sublimating

856
00:40:57,767 --> 00:40:59,847
Speaker 4: your opinions. It's about being a doormat.

857
00:40:59,527 --> 00:41:02,047
Speaker 2: Essentially, Although I would also like a man to be

858
00:41:02,127 --> 00:41:04,527
Speaker 2: a peacemaker, please, like I think that people who don't

859
00:41:04,927 --> 00:41:08,287
Speaker 2: deliberately go around antagonizing people to start fights and dramas.

860
00:41:08,367 --> 00:41:10,887
Speaker 2: Is something that's very appealing, and I on that.

861
00:41:11,007 --> 00:41:14,287
Speaker 3: I'm thinking back to when I was dating, say mid twenties,

862
00:41:14,327 --> 00:41:17,207
Speaker 3: and I would go on dates with men, and I

863
00:41:17,287 --> 00:41:20,967
Speaker 3: had internalized the idea, which I think was probably true.

864
00:41:21,007 --> 00:41:23,807
Speaker 3: I think I was responding to the evidence around me

865
00:41:24,367 --> 00:41:27,407
Speaker 3: that sitting there at dinner and talking about abortion rights

866
00:41:27,567 --> 00:41:31,447
Speaker 3: or about feminism wasn't very sexy, probably wasn't going to

867
00:41:31,487 --> 00:41:32,287
Speaker 3: get me a second date.

868
00:41:32,487 --> 00:41:35,087
Speaker 4: Remember there was that whole movement about you have to

869
00:41:35,087 --> 00:41:36,167
Speaker 4: be a low maintenance woman.

870
00:41:36,207 --> 00:41:38,407
Speaker 1: It's like, I'm a cool girl. I'm low maintenance.

871
00:41:38,447 --> 00:41:40,247
Speaker 3: I'm so like, I don't get fiery about things.

872
00:41:40,367 --> 00:41:43,607
Speaker 4: Yeah, no difficult, I don't have opinions, I don't have demands.

873
00:41:43,807 --> 00:41:45,967
Speaker 4: Because the next one is, she's not a victim. To

874
00:41:46,007 --> 00:41:48,007
Speaker 4: put it simply, a high value woman will always take

875
00:41:48,047 --> 00:41:49,407
Speaker 4: responsibility for herself.

876
00:41:49,687 --> 00:41:50,207
Speaker 1: Listen to this.

877
00:41:50,447 --> 00:41:53,567
Speaker 4: She'll never seek victimhood to gain the upper hand or

878
00:41:53,607 --> 00:41:55,087
Speaker 4: to make her life easier.

879
00:41:55,767 --> 00:41:59,807
Speaker 2: That's very convenient. That is all we've got time for

880
00:42:00,087 --> 00:42:02,567
Speaker 2: on our Monday. Mama, Mira, out loud, out louders, thank

881
00:42:02,607 --> 00:42:04,847
Speaker 2: you for being here with us. Thank you for joining us,

882
00:42:04,927 --> 00:42:07,207
Speaker 2: and thank you to our team for putting today's show together.

883
00:42:07,247 --> 00:42:09,327
Speaker 2: We'll be back in yours tomorrow and before.

884
00:42:09,127 --> 00:42:11,647
Speaker 3: We go if you would like some more of us.

885
00:42:11,727 --> 00:42:14,247
Speaker 3: Last week, I had a therapy dilemma that I needed

886
00:42:14,287 --> 00:42:16,207
Speaker 3: to talk through with Mayor and Holly, so I did

887
00:42:16,207 --> 00:42:19,487
Speaker 3: so in a subscriber episode. Here is a little taste.

888
00:42:19,567 --> 00:42:21,207
Speaker 3: I wish it was more of my voice, but I

889
00:42:21,247 --> 00:42:23,767
Speaker 3: hear my psychologist in my head a lot before I

890
00:42:23,847 --> 00:42:27,367
Speaker 3: make certain decisions about this inner child work, which sounds

891
00:42:27,367 --> 00:42:30,607
Speaker 3: really woo woo, but basically, like, listen to the deepest

892
00:42:30,647 --> 00:42:32,207
Speaker 3: part of you that's saying no, I don't want to

893
00:42:32,207 --> 00:42:34,727
Speaker 3: do that. No, I'm tired, No I'm sick, No I

894
00:42:34,727 --> 00:42:36,727
Speaker 3: want to hang out with my daughter. The more you

895
00:42:36,767 --> 00:42:40,487
Speaker 3: reject that, like, it's quite fracturing. A link to that

896
00:42:40,527 --> 00:42:43,367
Speaker 3: episode will be in the show notes. Bye bye.

897
00:42:44,807 --> 00:42:47,687
Speaker 2: Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you

898
00:42:47,847 --> 00:42:50,687
Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing

899
00:42:50,727 --> 00:42:53,167
Speaker 2: to MoMA Mia is the very best way to do it.

900
00:42:53,327 --> 00:42:55,167
Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode of description