1 00:00:10,614 --> 00:00:13,334 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mea podcast. 2 00:00:14,134 --> 00:00:17,214 Speaker 2: Mumma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,254 --> 00:00:19,054 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:22,494 --> 00:00:22,654 Speaker 3: Hi. 5 00:00:22,774 --> 00:00:25,654 Speaker 2: I'm Clare Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's daily news podcast, 6 00:00:25,654 --> 00:00:30,054 Speaker 2: The Quickie. Recently, Opposition leader Peter Dutton delivered his plan 7 00:00:30,174 --> 00:00:32,534 Speaker 2: to make power prices cheaper across Australia. 8 00:00:32,814 --> 00:00:35,414 Speaker 4: Make Australia a nuclear power nation is right for our 9 00:00:35,454 --> 00:00:39,734 Speaker 4: country and will secure a future of cheaper, consistent and 10 00:00:39,814 --> 00:00:40,934 Speaker 4: cleaner electricity. 11 00:00:41,174 --> 00:00:44,054 Speaker 2: While one side of this debate says nuclear is cheaper 12 00:00:44,094 --> 00:00:47,174 Speaker 2: and cleaner, the other says it's more expensive and riskier. 13 00:00:47,574 --> 00:00:50,574 Speaker 2: So who's right? Before we go nuclear? Here's the letters 14 00:00:50,574 --> 00:00:53,974 Speaker 2: from the Quickie newsroom, Friday, June twenty seven. Despite being 15 00:00:53,974 --> 00:00:56,254 Speaker 2: on opposite sides of the State of Origin line, the 16 00:00:56,254 --> 00:00:58,774 Speaker 2: coaches of both the Queensland and New South Wales women's 17 00:00:58,774 --> 00:01:01,854 Speaker 2: teams agree the series needs to shift next year. The 18 00:01:01,894 --> 00:01:04,534 Speaker 2: women's State of Origin series, wrapped up with a Queensland 19 00:01:04,534 --> 00:01:07,374 Speaker 2: win last night, occurs before the start of the women's 20 00:01:07,454 --> 00:01:10,214 Speaker 2: league competition, which means the quality of the games could 21 00:01:10,294 --> 00:01:13,254 Speaker 2: improve when the athletes are coming into the series having 22 00:01:13,294 --> 00:01:15,654 Speaker 2: played at a high standard week in and week out 23 00:01:15,694 --> 00:01:18,574 Speaker 2: in the lead up, like the men's competition does. More 24 00:01:18,614 --> 00:01:21,534 Speaker 2: than twenty two thousand fans braved the rain in Townsville 25 00:01:21,574 --> 00:01:24,574 Speaker 2: for Game three last night to watch Queensland sealed the series, 26 00:01:24,814 --> 00:01:27,934 Speaker 2: taking the game at twenty two to six. The Australian 27 00:01:27,934 --> 00:01:31,334 Speaker 2: Bureau Statistics has registered a twelfth straight annual rise in 28 00:01:31,414 --> 00:01:34,574 Speaker 2: sexual assaults across Australia, the highest level seen in more 29 00:01:34,574 --> 00:01:37,654 Speaker 2: than thirty years of records. The number of sexual assaults 30 00:01:37,654 --> 00:01:41,054 Speaker 2: recorded by police rose eleven percent in twenty twenty three. 31 00:01:41,494 --> 00:01:44,174 Speaker 2: In total, there were thirty six than three hundred and 32 00:01:44,214 --> 00:01:47,894 Speaker 2: eighteen victim survivors. The majority eighty four percent of the 33 00:01:47,974 --> 00:01:51,534 Speaker 2: victim survivors were female and most commonly aged between ten 34 00:01:51,654 --> 00:01:55,214 Speaker 2: and seventeen. New South Wales and Queensland recorded the largest 35 00:01:55,254 --> 00:01:58,854 Speaker 2: spike in assaults being reported, but experts say that these numbers, 36 00:01:58,894 --> 00:02:01,894 Speaker 2: while shocking, still only represent the tip of the iceberg. 37 00:02:02,654 --> 00:02:06,134 Speaker 2: Israel has stormed a neighborhood in Gaza, telling Palestinians to 38 00:02:06,174 --> 00:02:09,054 Speaker 2: flee south, bombing the city in what they claim are 39 00:02:09,054 --> 00:02:11,974 Speaker 2: the final stages of an operation against Tamass militants in 40 00:02:12,014 --> 00:02:15,214 Speaker 2: the area. Residents of the Shajaian neighborhood say they were 41 00:02:15,254 --> 00:02:18,214 Speaker 2: taken by surprise as tanks rolled in, firing in the 42 00:02:18,214 --> 00:02:22,694 Speaker 2: early afternoon, with drones also attacking after overnight bombing. One 43 00:02:22,734 --> 00:02:24,934 Speaker 2: resident told the media it sounded as if the war 44 00:02:25,054 --> 00:02:28,254 Speaker 2: was restarting. A message was posted on Twitter from an 45 00:02:28,334 --> 00:02:31,494 Speaker 2: army spokesperson telling residents of the area to move, but 46 00:02:31,574 --> 00:02:34,174 Speaker 2: they claimed the tanks were already rolling in before that 47 00:02:34,254 --> 00:02:37,894 Speaker 2: post landed. The Palestinian Civil Emergency Service says they have 48 00:02:38,014 --> 00:02:40,694 Speaker 2: reports that people have been killed and wounded, but they're 49 00:02:40,774 --> 00:02:43,534 Speaker 2: unable to reach the area due to the ongoing offensive. 50 00:02:44,334 --> 00:02:47,134 Speaker 2: There was a nervous hour for the astronauts aboard the 51 00:02:47,174 --> 00:02:50,974 Speaker 2: International Space Station this week after a defunct Russian satellite 52 00:02:51,014 --> 00:02:53,374 Speaker 2: broke up into more than one hundred pieces in orbit. 53 00:02:53,854 --> 00:02:56,374 Speaker 2: Those on the ISS were told to take shelter on 54 00:02:56,414 --> 00:03:00,134 Speaker 2: Wednesday as US Space Command tracked the debris swarm from 55 00:03:00,134 --> 00:03:03,174 Speaker 2: the satellite that was declared dead in twenty twenty two 56 00:03:03,294 --> 00:03:05,534 Speaker 2: before it broke up in an orbit near the station. 57 00:03:06,134 --> 00:03:09,054 Speaker 2: Large debris generating events in orbit are rare, but there 58 00:03:09,094 --> 00:03:12,134 Speaker 2: is incree concern that it will become more frequent as 59 00:03:12,134 --> 00:03:15,534 Speaker 2: space gets more and more crowded with satellite networks providing 60 00:03:15,654 --> 00:03:19,654 Speaker 2: us back on Earth, internet communications and navigation, alongside many 61 00:03:19,694 --> 00:03:22,654 Speaker 2: satellites that are no longer in use. That's what's happening 62 00:03:22,654 --> 00:03:25,534 Speaker 2: in the world today. Next, should we go nuclear? Is 63 00:03:25,574 --> 00:03:28,214 Speaker 2: Peter Dutton right that it will make our power cheaper? 64 00:03:28,694 --> 00:03:38,894 Speaker 2: Or are renewables still the way to go? When you 65 00:03:38,934 --> 00:03:41,814 Speaker 2: look at polling, it appears the majority of Australians are 66 00:03:41,854 --> 00:03:45,174 Speaker 2: in favor of establishing nuclear power plants here in Australia, 67 00:03:45,494 --> 00:03:48,534 Speaker 2: sixty two percent in favor. In fact, when you drill 68 00:03:48,654 --> 00:03:50,694 Speaker 2: down into the numbers though a little deeper, it shows 69 00:03:50,734 --> 00:03:54,054 Speaker 2: that while thirty two percent are fully in favor, thirty 70 00:03:54,094 --> 00:03:56,174 Speaker 2: percent of those Aussies would actually like to know a 71 00:03:56,174 --> 00:03:58,654 Speaker 2: bit more about it, but are still open to the idea. 72 00:03:59,174 --> 00:04:01,214 Speaker 2: The issue that many seem to come up against when 73 00:04:01,214 --> 00:04:05,014 Speaker 2: discussing nuclear power, or even renewable energy sources is that 74 00:04:05,094 --> 00:04:07,414 Speaker 2: everyone seems to have a different set of facts when 75 00:04:07,454 --> 00:04:11,334 Speaker 2: it comes to cost and environmental impact. Last week, Opposition 76 00:04:11,414 --> 00:04:14,294 Speaker 2: leader Peter Dutton revealed his plan to establish a network 77 00:04:14,294 --> 00:04:16,454 Speaker 2: of nuclear power stations across the country. 78 00:04:16,934 --> 00:04:20,294 Speaker 4: The Government of ordered nuclear powered submarines. So it raises 79 00:04:20,294 --> 00:04:23,494 Speaker 4: a reasonable question, why is the technology safe for our 80 00:04:23,534 --> 00:04:27,374 Speaker 4: sub mariners, but unsafe for our citizens because of nuclear power. 81 00:04:27,414 --> 00:04:30,694 Speaker 4: Residents in Ontario Canada pay up to a quarter of 82 00:04:30,694 --> 00:04:34,134 Speaker 4: the cost of what some Australians pay for electricity. With 83 00:04:34,294 --> 00:04:37,534 Speaker 4: nuclear power, we can maximize the highest yield of energy 84 00:04:37,574 --> 00:04:42,094 Speaker 4: per square meter and minimize our environmental damage. We do 85 00:04:42,174 --> 00:04:45,374 Speaker 4: that by putting new nuclear technologies on or near the 86 00:04:45,414 --> 00:04:49,974 Speaker 4: brownfield sites of decommissioned or retiring coal fire power plants. 87 00:04:50,094 --> 00:04:52,814 Speaker 4: Using the existing grid, there's no need for all of 88 00:04:52,814 --> 00:04:57,014 Speaker 4: the proposed fifty eight million solar panels, almost three thousand, 89 00:04:57,094 --> 00:05:01,214 Speaker 4: five hundred wind farms, and twenty eight thousand kilometers of 90 00:05:01,254 --> 00:05:03,174 Speaker 4: new transmission poles and wires. 91 00:05:04,534 --> 00:05:07,534 Speaker 2: The seven nuclear sites would include five large scale ones 92 00:05:07,574 --> 00:05:10,654 Speaker 2: across New South Wales, Queensland and Victoria, and two smaller 93 00:05:10,694 --> 00:05:14,094 Speaker 2: ones in SA and WA. Mister Dutton didn't say exactly 94 00:05:14,134 --> 00:05:16,734 Speaker 2: which type of plants would be built or how much 95 00:05:16,734 --> 00:05:18,894 Speaker 2: it would cost to build them, but head to the 96 00:05:18,974 --> 00:05:22,614 Speaker 2: comments sections about this topic and you'll find people arguing 97 00:05:22,694 --> 00:05:26,134 Speaker 2: both sides, both seemingly having the data to back up 98 00:05:26,134 --> 00:05:26,854 Speaker 2: their claims. 99 00:05:27,254 --> 00:05:30,014 Speaker 5: Know what nuclear plan has been built on time and 100 00:05:30,094 --> 00:05:33,934 Speaker 5: at designated costs this century. Small modular reactors are not 101 00:05:34,014 --> 00:05:38,734 Speaker 5: even functionally commercially operating, its unproven technology and its energy 102 00:05:38,774 --> 00:05:39,974 Speaker 5: output isn't amazing? 103 00:05:40,294 --> 00:05:43,174 Speaker 2: Still trying to find proof nuclear energy means cheaper energy? 104 00:05:43,374 --> 00:05:45,014 Speaker 1: There example evidence. 105 00:05:44,614 --> 00:05:46,894 Speaker 6: Of the many countries that are getting cheaper power than 106 00:05:46,934 --> 00:05:49,254 Speaker 6: Australia because of nuclear power. 107 00:05:49,574 --> 00:05:51,374 Speaker 3: Where is all the water going to come from? 108 00:05:51,534 --> 00:05:52,854 Speaker 1: Nuclear needs a lot of water. 109 00:05:53,214 --> 00:05:54,294 Speaker 5: Why is it people. 110 00:05:54,094 --> 00:05:56,574 Speaker 4: Only care about the cost when it comes to nuclear 111 00:05:57,014 --> 00:05:58,614 Speaker 4: What about how much it costs to builder? 112 00:05:58,654 --> 00:05:59,334 Speaker 3: In your books? 113 00:05:59,694 --> 00:06:02,254 Speaker 5: Is Peter going to explain whether nuclear waves will be 114 00:06:02,254 --> 00:06:05,214 Speaker 5: stored and how much the storage facilities will cost to 115 00:06:05,254 --> 00:06:06,774 Speaker 5: build and maintain. 116 00:06:07,214 --> 00:06:10,494 Speaker 2: Without an expansion on the detail and cost. Many started 117 00:06:10,574 --> 00:06:13,174 Speaker 2: using mister Dutton's own line from when he was campaigning 118 00:06:13,174 --> 00:06:15,214 Speaker 2: against the Voice to Parliament against him. 119 00:06:15,534 --> 00:06:17,094 Speaker 1: If you don't know, won't know? 120 00:06:17,814 --> 00:06:22,334 Speaker 2: So is nuclear power cleaner and cheaper? We asked two 121 00:06:22,374 --> 00:06:24,654 Speaker 2: people to give their opinion on this. First up is 122 00:06:24,734 --> 00:06:29,054 Speaker 2: independent economist and counselor at the Climate Council, Nikki Hutley. Nikki, 123 00:06:29,294 --> 00:06:30,974 Speaker 2: can we break down some of the things that Peter 124 00:06:31,054 --> 00:06:34,334 Speaker 2: Dutton has said in his announcement that nuclear would require 125 00:06:34,574 --> 00:06:37,054 Speaker 2: less transmission lines to be built, it would have a 126 00:06:37,054 --> 00:06:39,934 Speaker 2: smaller footprint than wind, or solar and less waste than 127 00:06:39,974 --> 00:06:42,254 Speaker 2: coal or gas. How much of that is true? 128 00:06:42,654 --> 00:06:48,014 Speaker 6: So in terms of the footprint, certainly a large scale 129 00:06:48,454 --> 00:06:50,814 Speaker 6: solar plant not the stuff you put on your roof. 130 00:06:50,854 --> 00:06:52,654 Speaker 1: But if you're going to build a what we call 131 00:06:52,694 --> 00:06:54,534 Speaker 1: grid scales solace. 132 00:06:54,214 --> 00:06:57,134 Speaker 6: You know, something that replaces a coal fired plant, then 133 00:06:57,174 --> 00:06:59,614 Speaker 6: that does take up a lot of room, probably more 134 00:07:00,174 --> 00:07:01,374 Speaker 6: than nuclear. 135 00:07:01,934 --> 00:07:04,574 Speaker 1: But in terms of transmission lines. 136 00:07:04,654 --> 00:07:08,254 Speaker 6: It's not the case that you need fewer transmission lines. 137 00:07:08,614 --> 00:07:12,254 Speaker 6: Everything in this has it depends, so it's very hard 138 00:07:12,294 --> 00:07:15,094 Speaker 6: for people to just take a very simplistic approach to this. 139 00:07:15,174 --> 00:07:16,974 Speaker 1: I'll try and keep it as simple as I can. 140 00:07:17,574 --> 00:07:21,094 Speaker 6: But you know, if you concentrate where you put the 141 00:07:21,174 --> 00:07:25,854 Speaker 6: nuclear power, you potentially could have fewer transmission lines. But 142 00:07:25,934 --> 00:07:28,734 Speaker 6: the same could be said for wind and solar. So 143 00:07:28,854 --> 00:07:31,534 Speaker 6: if we build large scale wind and solar plants in 144 00:07:31,534 --> 00:07:34,254 Speaker 6: one place, like in the renewable energy zones that governments 145 00:07:34,294 --> 00:07:37,654 Speaker 6: are supporting, then that reduces the amount of transmission that 146 00:07:37,694 --> 00:07:38,054 Speaker 6: we need. 147 00:07:38,094 --> 00:07:41,254 Speaker 2: Also, I guess something that people often point out to 148 00:07:41,374 --> 00:07:45,854 Speaker 2: when we talk about the discussion renewables versus nuclear the 149 00:07:46,134 --> 00:07:50,094 Speaker 2: amount of resources that actually go into building those renewable resources. 150 00:07:50,134 --> 00:07:53,654 Speaker 2: So building wind turbines, for example, and to make batteries 151 00:07:53,774 --> 00:07:56,214 Speaker 2: and all of the raw materials, and you know the 152 00:07:56,214 --> 00:07:58,814 Speaker 2: fact that they still need to be mined. Will it 153 00:07:58,854 --> 00:08:02,294 Speaker 2: take less resources to build nuclear power plants? And it 154 00:08:02,414 --> 00:08:05,014 Speaker 2: will to build renewable energy sources? 155 00:08:05,614 --> 00:08:06,494 Speaker 1: Not necessarily. 156 00:08:06,894 --> 00:08:10,174 Speaker 6: If you're building a large scale nuclear plant, you know, 157 00:08:10,294 --> 00:08:12,294 Speaker 6: it may not take up as much room as a 158 00:08:12,454 --> 00:08:14,854 Speaker 6: solar plant, but it still takes up a lot of 159 00:08:14,894 --> 00:08:19,654 Speaker 6: steel and concrete. You are consistently having to mine uranium. 160 00:08:19,894 --> 00:08:22,934 Speaker 6: You use a huge amount of water, which you know, 161 00:08:22,974 --> 00:08:25,334 Speaker 6: as we get to more and more warming climate is 162 00:08:25,374 --> 00:08:26,734 Speaker 6: going to be a problem for us. 163 00:08:27,294 --> 00:08:31,414 Speaker 1: So no, it's very naive to say that it uses 164 00:08:31,614 --> 00:08:32,654 Speaker 1: less resources. 165 00:08:33,094 --> 00:08:35,694 Speaker 6: Most of it's not recyclable either, which we're now finding 166 00:08:35,694 --> 00:08:39,574 Speaker 6: ways to certainly recycle major components from solar and wind. 167 00:08:40,534 --> 00:08:43,734 Speaker 2: Mister Dunn also said that in a year, a nuclear 168 00:08:43,734 --> 00:08:48,454 Speaker 2: power plant will create around one coke can's worth of waste. 169 00:08:48,494 --> 00:08:49,374 Speaker 2: Is that true? 170 00:08:49,774 --> 00:08:52,254 Speaker 6: I'm not an engineer, but my understanding and the research 171 00:08:52,294 --> 00:08:55,054 Speaker 6: I've done, is that is not true. The standard size 172 00:08:55,254 --> 00:09:00,654 Speaker 6: individual reactor would have something just under three hundred cubic meters. 173 00:09:00,694 --> 00:09:03,494 Speaker 6: That's more like a tennis court size rather than a 174 00:09:03,494 --> 00:09:03,934 Speaker 6: coke pan. 175 00:09:04,014 --> 00:09:05,534 Speaker 1: That's a pretty significant difference. 176 00:09:06,254 --> 00:09:08,294 Speaker 2: What impact does it have on the environment that we 177 00:09:08,334 --> 00:09:10,534 Speaker 2: have to deal with the waste that comes from a 178 00:09:10,614 --> 00:09:11,414 Speaker 2: nuclear plant. 179 00:09:12,054 --> 00:09:14,774 Speaker 6: So this is one thing that people haven't really focused 180 00:09:14,814 --> 00:09:16,894 Speaker 6: on in Australia. And you know, we do have a 181 00:09:17,014 --> 00:09:19,854 Speaker 6: very small nuclear reactor in New South Wales that does 182 00:09:20,054 --> 00:09:24,694 Speaker 6: medical reactions, and we've been so argumentative about where we 183 00:09:24,694 --> 00:09:27,654 Speaker 6: should store even that small amount of waste that it's 184 00:09:27,694 --> 00:09:30,174 Speaker 6: actually just kept on site because no one can make 185 00:09:30,254 --> 00:09:34,374 Speaker 6: that decision. If something were to happen and we were 186 00:09:34,414 --> 00:09:36,854 Speaker 6: to find a leak, either in the plant or the waste, 187 00:09:37,014 --> 00:09:40,854 Speaker 6: the fallout from that nuclear fallout in fact, would be 188 00:09:41,054 --> 00:09:44,774 Speaker 6: absolutely astronomical. You may remember last year a truck lost 189 00:09:44,814 --> 00:09:48,734 Speaker 6: a tiny, tiny pellet of radioactive material and. 190 00:09:48,654 --> 00:09:50,614 Speaker 1: You can remember the drama around that. 191 00:09:51,174 --> 00:09:54,014 Speaker 6: You know, we have to build in all sorts of 192 00:09:54,054 --> 00:09:58,774 Speaker 6: safeguards how we might store this safely against any sort 193 00:09:58,814 --> 00:10:00,174 Speaker 6: of event that might happen. 194 00:10:00,974 --> 00:10:03,134 Speaker 2: Can we look at other countries and see how they've 195 00:10:03,174 --> 00:10:05,414 Speaker 2: been storing it and have there been issues with their 196 00:10:05,494 --> 00:10:07,934 Speaker 2: nuclear waste that they've had to have that kind of 197 00:10:08,134 --> 00:10:10,574 Speaker 2: drama and concern over look. 198 00:10:10,414 --> 00:10:12,774 Speaker 1: Not on the whole. It's a very very rare event. 199 00:10:13,054 --> 00:10:17,614 Speaker 6: Probably there is more fallout from events like the earthquake 200 00:10:17,694 --> 00:10:20,734 Speaker 6: impact on Fukashima plant in Japan about eleven or so 201 00:10:20,894 --> 00:10:24,014 Speaker 6: years ago. Of course, Three Mile Island in the US 202 00:10:24,014 --> 00:10:27,054 Speaker 6: for those of us that are older, and Chernobyl in Russia. 203 00:10:27,094 --> 00:10:30,374 Speaker 6: All of these events where there was an accident at 204 00:10:30,414 --> 00:10:32,854 Speaker 6: the nuclear power plant itself, that would be the thing 205 00:10:32,894 --> 00:10:34,814 Speaker 6: that would cause catastrophic damage. 206 00:10:35,454 --> 00:10:39,414 Speaker 2: Would nuclear power, though nikki help us reach our climate 207 00:10:39,614 --> 00:10:41,214 Speaker 2: targets our emissions targets. 208 00:10:41,694 --> 00:10:43,974 Speaker 1: So nuclear power is zero emissions. 209 00:10:44,054 --> 00:10:47,094 Speaker 6: It's not renewable because you need to keep adding new 210 00:10:47,294 --> 00:10:49,854 Speaker 6: uranium and you keep needing to mine that, and that's 211 00:10:49,854 --> 00:10:53,854 Speaker 6: not a zero emissions project either, But it depends how 212 00:10:53,934 --> 00:10:57,614 Speaker 6: much you're going to use. The current opposition plan is 213 00:10:57,694 --> 00:10:59,694 Speaker 6: for and they haven't been specific about this, so we 214 00:10:59,734 --> 00:11:03,054 Speaker 6: don't know precisely, but you can gather that they will 215 00:11:03,054 --> 00:11:05,974 Speaker 6: only be using nuclear for about five to ten percent 216 00:11:06,414 --> 00:11:10,454 Speaker 6: of our total energy needs. Alongside that, they say there 217 00:11:10,494 --> 00:11:13,094 Speaker 6: will still be renewables and there will still be gas. 218 00:11:13,974 --> 00:11:17,614 Speaker 6: If that's the case, then there really isn't any need 219 00:11:18,094 --> 00:11:21,334 Speaker 6: for nuclear. You would just stick with renewables and gas 220 00:11:21,454 --> 00:11:25,854 Speaker 6: because they're much cheaper and Ultimately, all of these questions 221 00:11:25,974 --> 00:11:28,574 Speaker 6: really should come down to the economics. You can ask 222 00:11:28,614 --> 00:11:32,174 Speaker 6: about the safety, you can ask about recycling of the 223 00:11:32,214 --> 00:11:35,614 Speaker 6: resources used, but it just doesn't make sense from an 224 00:11:35,654 --> 00:11:36,694 Speaker 6: economic point of view. 225 00:11:36,734 --> 00:11:38,254 Speaker 1: And I think that's the point that I want to 226 00:11:38,294 --> 00:11:39,094 Speaker 1: stress to people. 227 00:11:39,334 --> 00:11:41,494 Speaker 6: It's bad for the economy and it's bad for the 228 00:11:41,574 --> 00:11:42,974 Speaker 6: climate because it means we're going to have a lot 229 00:11:43,014 --> 00:11:46,134 Speaker 6: more emissions before we get there to this very small, 230 00:11:46,454 --> 00:11:48,694 Speaker 6: expensive part of the energy system. 231 00:11:49,134 --> 00:11:52,694 Speaker 2: I guess overwritingly, when we're talking about nuclear versus the 232 00:11:52,734 --> 00:11:56,374 Speaker 2: other powers, there's one side that says it is cleaner 233 00:11:56,854 --> 00:11:59,694 Speaker 2: and cheaper, and those who say it is dirtier and 234 00:11:59,774 --> 00:12:02,254 Speaker 2: more expensive. So what I want to ask you, is 235 00:12:02,574 --> 00:12:07,494 Speaker 2: nuclear power cleaner than the power that we are currently 236 00:12:07,854 --> 00:12:09,574 Speaker 2: using here in Australia. 237 00:12:09,694 --> 00:12:13,214 Speaker 6: So nuclear power is definitely cleaner than coal or gas. 238 00:12:13,654 --> 00:12:16,214 Speaker 6: And if we could do this in a sensible way 239 00:12:16,214 --> 00:12:18,894 Speaker 6: in Australia, in a way that was the cheapest way 240 00:12:18,934 --> 00:12:21,254 Speaker 6: to put it, I would have no problems with us 241 00:12:21,694 --> 00:12:24,254 Speaker 6: having to jump all the hurdles of changing our laws 242 00:12:24,254 --> 00:12:25,734 Speaker 6: and things. I think it would be a good idea. 243 00:12:25,814 --> 00:12:28,494 Speaker 6: There is nuclear power in other countries. You know, from 244 00:12:28,494 --> 00:12:32,294 Speaker 6: a safety perspective, the risks are reasonably low. Where it 245 00:12:32,334 --> 00:12:35,094 Speaker 6: doesn't make sense is it just cost too much and 246 00:12:35,134 --> 00:12:37,694 Speaker 6: it is impossible to say that this will give us 247 00:12:37,774 --> 00:12:40,614 Speaker 6: cheaper energy. The only way it can do that is 248 00:12:40,614 --> 00:12:44,574 Speaker 6: if the government subsidizes nuclear energy. And when the government 249 00:12:44,654 --> 00:12:48,854 Speaker 6: subsidizes something us taxpayers, You and me, we're the ones 250 00:12:48,854 --> 00:12:51,094 Speaker 6: that pay for that. So it may be cheaper on 251 00:12:51,134 --> 00:12:53,014 Speaker 6: the bill, but it will mean more in taxes. 252 00:12:54,094 --> 00:12:56,014 Speaker 2: The second person to weigh in on this debate is 253 00:12:56,094 --> 00:12:59,534 Speaker 2: Tony Irwin, an honorary Associate professor at the Research School 254 00:12:59,574 --> 00:13:03,054 Speaker 2: of Physics and Engineering at the Australian National University, nuclear 255 00:13:03,094 --> 00:13:07,774 Speaker 2: engineer and technical director of SMI Nuclear Technology. Tony the 256 00:13:07,854 --> 00:13:10,494 Speaker 2: nuclear power plant that's been mentioned and as maybe the 257 00:13:10,494 --> 00:13:13,094 Speaker 2: one we may build here in Australia, the Westinghouse Small 258 00:13:13,134 --> 00:13:16,174 Speaker 2: Modular reactor. There are experts who say that no version 259 00:13:16,174 --> 00:13:18,254 Speaker 2: around the world of this type has been built on 260 00:13:18,374 --> 00:13:20,694 Speaker 2: time or to budget. Is that true? 261 00:13:21,134 --> 00:13:23,734 Speaker 3: You've got to plan these things very carefully. You've got 262 00:13:23,734 --> 00:13:28,534 Speaker 3: to have the supply chain all in place before you start. 263 00:13:29,174 --> 00:13:32,374 Speaker 3: It's project management that will get it built to time 264 00:13:32,454 --> 00:13:36,094 Speaker 3: and budget. Obviously, there's certainly they've got a lot of experience. 265 00:13:36,174 --> 00:13:38,894 Speaker 3: Now in China and the US are sort of getting 266 00:13:38,974 --> 00:13:42,334 Speaker 3: back into it again, and the Vogel plant certainly took 267 00:13:42,414 --> 00:13:45,334 Speaker 3: longer than it should have done, but with the correct 268 00:13:45,414 --> 00:13:49,654 Speaker 3: supply chain and an organization, certainly it can be done. 269 00:13:50,294 --> 00:13:53,654 Speaker 2: Tony When we look at other countries who use nuclear power, 270 00:13:53,734 --> 00:13:58,174 Speaker 2: so several European countries in Canada, for example, is it 271 00:13:58,214 --> 00:14:01,494 Speaker 2: true that their power is cheaper, and if so, how 272 00:14:01,574 --> 00:14:04,414 Speaker 2: much of their power is actually generated from a nuclear 273 00:14:04,494 --> 00:14:07,814 Speaker 2: source as opposed to say, other renewables or geothermal or 274 00:14:07,854 --> 00:14:11,134 Speaker 2: hydro or whatever it is they might have as their secondary. 275 00:14:10,894 --> 00:14:15,574 Speaker 3: The ones that are most successful in getting low emissions 276 00:14:16,014 --> 00:14:20,134 Speaker 3: either have very large hydro, which of course isn't possible here, 277 00:14:20,854 --> 00:14:25,294 Speaker 3: or hydro and nuclear, So countries like France obviously more 278 00:14:25,334 --> 00:14:30,734 Speaker 3: than seventy percent nuclear, Sweden hydro and nuclear, Finland hydro 279 00:14:30,854 --> 00:14:33,854 Speaker 3: and nuclear. These are the ones that have the lowest 280 00:14:33,934 --> 00:14:38,454 Speaker 3: consistent emissions and also tend to have the lowest electricity 281 00:14:38,494 --> 00:14:39,334 Speaker 3: costs as well. 282 00:14:40,094 --> 00:14:42,614 Speaker 2: So in the case of US not being able to 283 00:14:42,654 --> 00:14:46,374 Speaker 2: do large hydro alongside nuclear, will it mean that our 284 00:14:46,414 --> 00:14:49,654 Speaker 2: power prices will still be cheaper or will we looking 285 00:14:49,694 --> 00:14:51,814 Speaker 2: at something similar to what we already have well. 286 00:14:51,894 --> 00:14:55,694 Speaker 3: Nuclear must reduce the costs because when you look at 287 00:14:55,694 --> 00:15:00,534 Speaker 3: the total system costs of wind and solar, then nuclear 288 00:15:00,974 --> 00:15:04,174 Speaker 3: will always come out cheaper because it doesn't need all 289 00:15:04,214 --> 00:15:08,934 Speaker 3: the extra transmission, it doesn't need any storage devices as well. 290 00:15:09,614 --> 00:15:13,974 Speaker 3: Big point is the lifetime, because solar and wind twenty 291 00:15:14,014 --> 00:15:18,454 Speaker 3: five perhaps thirty years most then you've got batteries are 292 00:15:18,494 --> 00:15:23,214 Speaker 3: not very long compared to nuclear, which is sixty years 293 00:15:23,254 --> 00:15:27,934 Speaker 3: designed eighty years in practice. The problem is that all 294 00:15:28,014 --> 00:15:31,734 Speaker 3: that existing wind and solar has got to be replaced 295 00:15:31,774 --> 00:15:34,854 Speaker 3: before twenty fifty, and the costs of that are theo 296 00:15:34,894 --> 00:15:35,974 Speaker 3: are taken into account. 297 00:15:36,414 --> 00:15:38,934 Speaker 2: Can we talk about the locations that have been earmarked 298 00:15:39,014 --> 00:15:43,494 Speaker 2: for this form of coal fire plants for example decommissioned 299 00:15:43,534 --> 00:15:47,694 Speaker 2: or about to be these nuclear power plants do need 300 00:15:47,734 --> 00:15:50,214 Speaker 2: access to a fair amount of water and the ground 301 00:15:50,254 --> 00:15:53,374 Speaker 2: needs to be very stable those seven locations. Has that 302 00:15:53,454 --> 00:15:56,534 Speaker 2: already been taken into consideration or are we still in 303 00:15:56,614 --> 00:15:58,934 Speaker 2: the sort of pre planning process to ensure that those 304 00:15:58,934 --> 00:15:59,774 Speaker 2: things are in place. 305 00:16:00,414 --> 00:16:04,014 Speaker 3: As far as the cooling water is concerned, cooling water, 306 00:16:04,734 --> 00:16:08,854 Speaker 3: the main use of that is calling for your turbine condenser, 307 00:16:09,894 --> 00:16:14,294 Speaker 3: so it's not reactor cooling so all these water cool 308 00:16:14,374 --> 00:16:18,814 Speaker 3: reactors have also got the same sort of turbine condensed 309 00:16:18,894 --> 00:16:23,334 Speaker 3: system as a coal fire POWERstation, So any existing site 310 00:16:23,454 --> 00:16:27,774 Speaker 3: that's got adequate cooling water supplies will be okay with 311 00:16:27,934 --> 00:16:31,294 Speaker 3: the way of cooling water for a nuclear power plant. 312 00:16:31,534 --> 00:16:35,294 Speaker 3: The other big advantage course is that the coal fired 313 00:16:35,334 --> 00:16:38,894 Speaker 3: power stations have got the existing transmission system linked up 314 00:16:38,934 --> 00:16:43,374 Speaker 3: to them and its major transmission links, so that saves 315 00:16:43,454 --> 00:16:44,134 Speaker 3: you money. 316 00:16:44,334 --> 00:16:47,174 Speaker 2: Just finally, though, is the risk less We know that 317 00:16:48,174 --> 00:16:52,014 Speaker 2: accidents around nuclear power plants are rare, but they have happened. 318 00:16:53,134 --> 00:16:56,054 Speaker 2: Is the risk of us having seven nuclear power plants? 319 00:16:56,094 --> 00:16:58,054 Speaker 2: And we already do have some in New South Wales? 320 00:16:58,094 --> 00:16:59,774 Speaker 2: But is the risk of us having seven of these 321 00:16:59,814 --> 00:17:02,734 Speaker 2: plants around the country worth it considering what can happen 322 00:17:03,214 --> 00:17:04,694 Speaker 2: if there is an accident. 323 00:17:04,654 --> 00:17:07,654 Speaker 3: You've got to look at how we make reactors safe. 324 00:17:08,294 --> 00:17:13,174 Speaker 3: Now modern reactor would have survived even a Fokoshima type 325 00:17:13,174 --> 00:17:16,374 Speaker 3: of accident, So there hasn't been an accident to a 326 00:17:16,414 --> 00:17:20,534 Speaker 3: reactor built in the last thirty years because what we 327 00:17:20,694 --> 00:17:23,734 Speaker 3: do now is ensure the reactor can be kept cool 328 00:17:23,854 --> 00:17:28,854 Speaker 3: by passive means, so this is by gravity, natural conveection, conduction, 329 00:17:29,974 --> 00:17:33,734 Speaker 3: The problem in Fukashima was it relied on electrical supplies 330 00:17:33,734 --> 00:17:36,574 Speaker 3: from outside the diesels which they put in the basement, 331 00:17:36,734 --> 00:17:41,174 Speaker 3: so they got flooded, and outside electrical outside water supplies 332 00:17:41,334 --> 00:17:45,654 Speaker 3: to keep it safe. So a modern reactor doesn't have 333 00:17:45,734 --> 00:17:48,134 Speaker 3: those sort of problems at all. You know that the 334 00:17:48,294 --> 00:17:50,534 Speaker 3: risks are really have been minimized. 335 00:17:52,014 --> 00:17:55,254 Speaker 2: Prime Minister Anthony Albernezi spoke on the subject yesterday, saying 336 00:17:55,334 --> 00:17:59,374 Speaker 2: that the opposition's proposal to build nuclear reactors risks delaying 337 00:17:59,414 --> 00:18:02,734 Speaker 2: Australia's energy transition. He said that the true cost of 338 00:18:02,814 --> 00:18:06,134 Speaker 2: nuclear power in Australia not just the hundreds of billions 339 00:18:06,174 --> 00:18:09,014 Speaker 2: of dollars in the cost of constructing the reactors more 340 00:18:09,014 --> 00:18:12,574 Speaker 2: than a decad away, but the danger that another decade 341 00:18:12,574 --> 00:18:15,894 Speaker 2: of denial prevents the action on climate and investment in 342 00:18:16,094 --> 00:18:19,214 Speaker 2: energy that we need now. Mister Albinizi pointed out that 343 00:18:19,254 --> 00:18:23,534 Speaker 2: Australia has every resource imaginable to succeed in this decisive decade, 344 00:18:23,694 --> 00:18:27,734 Speaker 2: critical minerals, rare earths, skills and space and sunlight. He said. 345 00:18:27,774 --> 00:18:30,894 Speaker 2: The only thing our nation does not have is time 346 00:18:30,934 --> 00:18:33,894 Speaker 2: to waste. Thanks for tuning in today, friends, If you 347 00:18:33,974 --> 00:18:35,534 Speaker 2: have a new story he'd like us to look into 348 00:18:35,574 --> 00:18:38,414 Speaker 2: in a little more detail, like Amy Dellacata and others 349 00:18:38,454 --> 00:18:41,014 Speaker 2: did request and we look into this story on nuclear power. 350 00:18:41,334 --> 00:18:43,534 Speaker 2: You can hit us up on socials or email us 351 00:18:43,574 --> 00:18:47,214 Speaker 2: The Quickie at mummamea dot com dot au. This episode 352 00:18:47,254 --> 00:18:49,614 Speaker 2: of The Quikie was produced by me Claire Murphy and 353 00:18:49,694 --> 00:18:52,974 Speaker 2: our senior producer Taylor Strano, with audio production by Tom 354 00:18:53,054 --> 00:18:58,254 Speaker 2: Lin and Jacob Brown.