WEBVTT - Decoding The Nicole Kidman & Keith Urban Divorce Narrative

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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<v Speaker 2>that this podcast is recorded on.

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<v Speaker 1>So I've got some big news. The winner of the

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<v Speaker 1>Fat Bear competition in Alaska has been announced and it

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<v Speaker 1>is number thirty two, Chunk. And I love this for

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of reasons. The first is that Chunk has

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<v Speaker 1>been in this contest every year since it's begun eleven

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, and he was runner up the last two years,

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<v Speaker 1>but now this is his time.

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<v Speaker 2>This Boad's well for Leonardo DiCaprio at the Oscars Nation. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it does always there, but he never wins, just like

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<v Speaker 2>Chunk's a win.

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<v Speaker 1>And I have to say that I also specially love

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<v Speaker 1>his name because my partner is trying to make the

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<v Speaker 1>category of man chunky boss happen. Chunky bosses. Think Vince Vaughn, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>think Jason Segual, Yes, chunky bosses, and so I think

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<v Speaker 1>that in fact, this means that chunky bosses are now in.

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<v Speaker 3>I will also say about Chunk, I have read a

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<v Speaker 3>single detail about our French and that is that he

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<v Speaker 3>has a broken jaw, and that to me signals he's

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<v Speaker 3>commitment to eating salmon like I think he ate too

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<v Speaker 3>much salmon broke his jaw. But he won in the

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<v Speaker 3>end and his body on the line.

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<v Speaker 2>He could still eat the salmon with a broken jaw.

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<v Speaker 2>That is quite commitment. That is quite a commitment.

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<v Speaker 1>Congratulations to our chunky boss Chunk.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to Momma Mia out loud. It's what

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<v Speaker 2>women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the first of October.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Holly Wainwright and I am trying to restrain any

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<v Speaker 2>panic that it is Wednesday, the first of October.

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<v Speaker 3>I am Jesse Stevens.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm Amelia Lester.

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<v Speaker 2>And on our show today you might have heard, I know,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe you've heard. I'm just a little bit of news.

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<v Speaker 3>Holly just has been shrieking, running around, frazzled hot.

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<v Speaker 2>I have been very very upset by this, very destabilized

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<v Speaker 2>that's the word. Yeah, he stabilized that Australian royal uncoupling. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>welcome to today's show, where we're going to decode the

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<v Speaker 2>gossip and noise around the Nicole Keith divorceview.

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<v Speaker 3>Plus it's time for us all to hold hands and

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<v Speaker 3>climb Cringe Mountain together we discuss why this viral theory

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<v Speaker 3>could change your life.

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<v Speaker 1>And I went to Sephora this morning and waited until

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<v Speaker 1>the door's opened to get in.

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<v Speaker 3>I feel like you're going through something.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going through something. Women over forty are doing our

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<v Speaker 1>makeup all wrong, and I'm here to tell you what

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<v Speaker 1>we need to do differently.

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<v Speaker 2>But first of all, I'm not going to say in

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<v Speaker 2>case you missed it, because you didn't miss it. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>nobody missed this.

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<v Speaker 3>Except you for a few hours yesterday morning.

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<v Speaker 2>It's true. In fact, we recorded a whole emergency meeting

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<v Speaker 2>for subscribers about this yesterday, So if you need to

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<v Speaker 2>go back to the beginning of this story, go and

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<v Speaker 2>listen to that right But since then, there has been

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<v Speaker 2>so much coverage, some of it reputable, some of it

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<v Speaker 2>just very gossipy. And what we're going to do is

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<v Speaker 2>do a bit of decode for you here about what

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<v Speaker 2>seems to be true, what seems to be nonsense, what

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<v Speaker 2>seems to be pure speculation. And we do need to,

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<v Speaker 2>as we did in the episode yesterday, we need to

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<v Speaker 2>lay the table to say we're aware that this is

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<v Speaker 2>a non of our business, be some people's real lives.

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<v Speaker 2>That is serious stuff. But I think that it is

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<v Speaker 2>unquestionable that this is the biggest celebrity story in the

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<v Speaker 2>world at the moment, and that we all have something

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<v Speaker 2>of a connection to the Nicole and Keith situation, and

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<v Speaker 2>it is unfolding in quite actually an unconventional way.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So, yesterday the separation was reported. There has been no

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<v Speaker 2>official confirmation from either party. And when we're recorded yesterday,

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<v Speaker 2>we said probably in the next twenty four hours they

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<v Speaker 2>will release or one or the other of them, or

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<v Speaker 2>usually a joint statement will be released which will say

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<v Speaker 2>something along the lines of what do they always say,

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<v Speaker 2>Amelia those statements.

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<v Speaker 1>Please respect our privacy at this time as we focus

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<v Speaker 1>on our family and create beautiful separate journeys which are

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<v Speaker 1>also together.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and we respect each other and love each other

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<v Speaker 2>and so on, and so.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll always be friends.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's usually that kind of nothing to see here

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<v Speaker 2>statement now that very noticeably has not happened in the

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<v Speaker 2>last two days.

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<v Speaker 1>So there hasn't been any statement.

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<v Speaker 2>There has been no direct as we're recording now. Obviously

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<v Speaker 2>that could.

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<v Speaker 1>Change, but that is very unusual.

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<v Speaker 2>It is very unusual because even if and we speculated

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<v Speaker 2>about this yesterday, is that perhaps there was a leak

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<v Speaker 2>they were preparing to announce this, but there had been

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<v Speaker 2>a leak and so they were scrambling. But given the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that today it has been officially reported that Nicole

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<v Speaker 2>Kidman has filed for divorce, so it's definitely happening.

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<v Speaker 1>Did she file in Tennessee?

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<v Speaker 2>She filed in Tennessee, which is where they live, right

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<v Speaker 2>their primary residence. So court documents obtained by page six

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<v Speaker 2>reveal that the breakup was due to a reconcilable differences.

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<v Speaker 2>We all that means too and its what does that? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's a pretty standard reason. Yeah, but it

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<v Speaker 2>just means it broke down, it could not be saved.

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<v Speaker 2>And listed their separation date the September the thirtieth, which

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<v Speaker 2>is okay, yeah, right now, right now, Kidman requested to

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<v Speaker 2>be the primary residential parent of her and Urban's daughters

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<v Speaker 2>and to have custody of them for three hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>six days.

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<v Speaker 3>And out of the year fourteen and seventeen daughters.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, that's not joint customer.

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<v Speaker 2>That's primary custody to her. None of the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>this is authorized what we're about to say. So the

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<v Speaker 2>court documents are legal documents, so we know it's definitely happening,

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<v Speaker 2>but there's been no official statement, as we've said, but

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<v Speaker 2>what there has been is quite a lot of leaking,

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<v Speaker 2>and the leaking seems to be coming mostly from Nicole's side,

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<v Speaker 2>because one of the first things that we heard yesterday

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<v Speaker 2>is that she had been trying hard to keep the

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<v Speaker 2>family together. A family member who didn't want to be

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<v Speaker 2>named told the Sydney Morning Herald because obviously Nicholl's family

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<v Speaker 2>are Australian, that Kidman is heartbroken and that the actor

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<v Speaker 2>had been attempting to keep the family together for several

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<v Speaker 2>months for the sake of the kids.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought that was so interesting that clearly her approved

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<v Speaker 1>source leaked to the Herald, because that's a broadsheet newspaper.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not a guy brag. So they wanted us to

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<v Speaker 1>take that at face value.

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<v Speaker 2>They did, absolutely, And to explain about sources, right, we

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<v Speaker 2>often roll our eyes about celebrity sources sources say, but

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<v Speaker 2>also in these kinds of instances, we know that sources

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<v Speaker 2>close to the celebrity are a legitimate way that you

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<v Speaker 2>get this kind of news out without making it seem

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<v Speaker 2>as if it was you.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, they're right, So.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, just ask Prince Harry. On one hand, you

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<v Speaker 2>can say, oh, tabloids are full of moder named sources.

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<v Speaker 2>On the other hand, he'll say, the sources that the

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<v Speaker 2>Palace were leaking about me all the time. So you

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<v Speaker 2>know that sources can be reached.

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<v Speaker 3>And I suppose as well that not all sources are

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<v Speaker 3>created equal. So you know, the other gossip, I suppose

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<v Speaker 3>that has been coming out. Every possibility, every rumor that

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<v Speaker 3>could surface about this relationship has surfaced over the last

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<v Speaker 3>twenty four hours. So it was always going to be

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<v Speaker 3>discussions about Keith. Urban has had a history with addiction,

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<v Speaker 3>so that becomes a question. So it was inevitable that

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<v Speaker 3>there would be speculation about infidelity. Hollywood, we make of

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<v Speaker 3>those rooms.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of the signs that you know something feels a

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<v Speaker 2>little off is that the reputable sources like page six

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<v Speaker 2>and people are now saying so as we're recording this,

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<v Speaker 2>people are saying the split is turning dramatic. Nicole's hurt

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<v Speaker 2>and feels betrayed. Now we've heard that part. This next

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<v Speaker 2>part is the part that's a bit new, which is

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<v Speaker 2>that she wanted to save their marriage, but it seems

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<v Speaker 2>he's already moved on. I think that he's already moved on.

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<v Speaker 2>Is the bit that blends a little bit of weight

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<v Speaker 2>to the rumors of infidelity. Clearly, what is coming out

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<v Speaker 2>here is that the side of the story that we

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<v Speaker 2>are seeing is that this was not Nicole. This is

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<v Speaker 2>to do with Keith. She was spending the summer with

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<v Speaker 2>her daughters. He's been on tour and something has happened.

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<v Speaker 2>That is the vibe of what is being put out there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that the speculation is coming out because

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<v Speaker 1>there's a bit of a vacuum because there was no

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<v Speaker 1>official statement proclaiming to still be friends. Because we've seen

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<v Speaker 1>leaking to reputable sources like The Herald and like Page six,

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<v Speaker 1>which is where sometimes supporting came from, and People magazine.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's why we're seeing so much speculation. But I

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<v Speaker 1>think that the big takeaway is that Nicole's camp wants

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<v Speaker 1>us to understand that from her perspective, she did everything

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<v Speaker 1>she could. She didn't want this to happen, and her

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<v Speaker 1>filing doesn't negate that. It means that she tried everything

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<v Speaker 1>and she just couldn't make it work. That's what her

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<v Speaker 1>camp wants us to understand from this.

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<v Speaker 3>The other piece of material we're getting from sources is

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<v Speaker 3>regarding intimacy. I'm saying, the word intimacy come up a lot,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's about how there had been a breakdown in

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<v Speaker 3>an intimacy because Keith Urban had been traveling a lot,

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<v Speaker 3>she had been traveling a lot, and basically they never

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<v Speaker 3>saw each other. And it was the nail in the

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<v Speaker 3>coffin when Keith Urban basically moved out, is what it

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<v Speaker 3>sounds like, and that that happened at the beginning of

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<v Speaker 3>the US summer. So that's sort of the other piece

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<v Speaker 3>of the puzzle, which you were saying yesterday, Holly on

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<v Speaker 3>the subscriber episode. Is this going to become a narrative

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<v Speaker 3>about how hard Nicole works?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm interested because obviously all the things we just

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<v Speaker 2>said that the sources saying, particularly the stuff about Keith

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<v Speaker 2>and whether or not there's somebody else involved that is

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<v Speaker 2>scorellous gossip at this point definitely is as you've very

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<v Speaker 2>clearly stated, Amelia. What doesn't seem to be beyond question

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<v Speaker 2>is that this was his call and that Nicole has

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<v Speaker 2>been blindsided, in verted commas by this news. But it's

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<v Speaker 2>interesting because now all the takes start coming out, and

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<v Speaker 2>right now that's very much where the story sits that

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<v Speaker 2>what did Keith do right? But the story will probably

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<v Speaker 2>turn a few more times in the next couple of weeks.

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<v Speaker 2>And what we're seeing too are some angles about Nicole's

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<v Speaker 2>ambition in inverted commas in terms of lots and lots

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<v Speaker 2>of work, lots and lots of quite. I've seen some

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<v Speaker 2>not so veiled references to the fact that she keeps

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<v Speaker 2>picking these sexy parts that she's choosing to get naked

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<v Speaker 2>a lot. I've seen some mean reporting about oh, he

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<v Speaker 2>was so obsessed with his youth and beauty regime and

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<v Speaker 2>he couldn't Basically, the undercurrent is like that two vain

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<v Speaker 2>people couldn't survive in this marriage. All of that feel

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<v Speaker 2>mean spirited. But what do we think about why we

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<v Speaker 2>project so much and need to dig into all of

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<v Speaker 2>this so much?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the projecting, because there's been as Amelia was saying

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<v Speaker 3>about the vacuum, I think that's a really good point

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<v Speaker 3>because then there's just a whole lot of think pieces

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<v Speaker 3>or heart pieces that are sort of saying There was

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<v Speaker 3>one I was reading that was saying, oh, well, we

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<v Speaker 3>were lied to, like because that was the thing is

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<v Speaker 3>that he called her baby girl. And they were always

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<v Speaker 3>so publicly affectionate. People are now looking at their relationship

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<v Speaker 3>through the lens of being quite performative, which to me

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<v Speaker 3>is just such an absurd claim. When a couple has

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<v Speaker 3>been together for nineteen years, things can just change. It

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't mean they were lying three years ago when they

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<v Speaker 3>were hooking up on the red carpet, like go for it.

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<v Speaker 3>That relationship has just evolved, like so many do well.

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<v Speaker 1>I also think that there's a parallel here. There's inescapable

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<v Speaker 1>parallels with Nicole's divorce from Tom Cruise. The idea that

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<v Speaker 1>she was blindsided, and again that's fairly well sourced reporting

0:11:11.022 --> 0:11:13.742
<v Speaker 1>that she felt sort of very surprised by the turn

0:11:13.822 --> 0:11:17.302
<v Speaker 1>the marriage took, and then also the idea that it

0:11:17.462 --> 0:11:20.702
<v Speaker 1>was very much even though Nicole was this instigator of

0:11:20.742 --> 0:11:23.142
<v Speaker 1>the divorce, it was something where she felt unable to

0:11:23.142 --> 0:11:25.902
<v Speaker 1>do anything else about it. We also need to keep

0:11:25.942 --> 0:11:27.502
<v Speaker 1>in mind that both of them were going through a

0:11:27.502 --> 0:11:30.862
<v Speaker 1>lot of personal change over the last year. Nicole has

0:11:30.942 --> 0:11:34.702
<v Speaker 1>written very beautifully in the Australian press about how hard

0:11:34.742 --> 0:11:36.982
<v Speaker 1>it was to lose her mother in October of last

0:11:37.022 --> 0:11:40.222
<v Speaker 1>year and how that really occasioned a big rethink for

0:11:40.302 --> 0:11:42.262
<v Speaker 1>her of what her life was about and what she

0:11:42.302 --> 0:11:45.222
<v Speaker 1>wanted to do with her life. Keith earlier this year,

0:11:45.422 --> 0:11:48.022
<v Speaker 1>just before his tour began, fired a number of his

0:11:48.102 --> 0:11:50.982
<v Speaker 1>band members, and people didn't really understand why that was.

0:11:51.022 --> 0:11:53.342
<v Speaker 1>He'd been playing with them for a long time. He

0:11:53.422 --> 0:11:55.542
<v Speaker 1>spoke at the time about how he was sort of

0:11:55.582 --> 0:11:58.822
<v Speaker 1>reorganizing his life and rethinking how he wanted to do things.

0:11:59.062 --> 0:12:01.262
<v Speaker 1>And then their children are growing up and one of

0:12:01.302 --> 0:12:04.142
<v Speaker 1>their daughters has become a model and is getting some

0:12:04.222 --> 0:12:06.462
<v Speaker 1>fame in her own right, So there's a lot of

0:12:06.582 --> 0:12:08.382
<v Speaker 1>change there separate from the marriage.

0:12:08.382 --> 0:12:10.502
<v Speaker 2>They're entering a new era. And we talked about this

0:12:10.542 --> 0:12:13.982
<v Speaker 2>a little bit yesterday. Is that a midlife marriage collapse

0:12:14.102 --> 0:12:16.742
<v Speaker 2>is very common, you know, and very often it's instigated

0:12:16.742 --> 0:12:19.142
<v Speaker 2>by the woman, to be honest. Is that we talked

0:12:19.142 --> 0:12:22.422
<v Speaker 2>also about how after losing a parent often that destabilization

0:12:22.582 --> 0:12:25.142
<v Speaker 2>can cause you to make big changes in your life

0:12:25.542 --> 0:12:28.622
<v Speaker 2>when you look around and go, this is this it now?

0:12:28.902 --> 0:12:30.902
<v Speaker 2>And I agree with your point, Jesse, that I think

0:12:31.502 --> 0:12:34.102
<v Speaker 2>the narrative of like, oh, they were faking it all

0:12:34.142 --> 0:12:36.982
<v Speaker 2>this time is nonsense because you can't fake it for

0:12:37.022 --> 0:12:41.022
<v Speaker 2>twenty years. And although some people were always sniffy about

0:12:41.022 --> 0:12:44.262
<v Speaker 2>the PDA, and to be fair, Tom and Nicole were

0:12:44.262 --> 0:12:47.502
<v Speaker 2>also known for their PDA. Like there are some very famous,

0:12:47.982 --> 0:12:51.022
<v Speaker 2>very gorgeous red carpet shots of them from you know,

0:12:51.062 --> 0:12:53.862
<v Speaker 2>the nineties and noughties where they were all over each other.

0:12:53.902 --> 0:12:55.822
<v Speaker 2>Like I think that is maybe who she is, and

0:12:55.862 --> 0:12:58.062
<v Speaker 2>that's okay, right, Like I don't think that means that

0:12:58.102 --> 0:13:02.102
<v Speaker 2>anybody's acting there. But over twenty years, so much in

0:13:02.142 --> 0:13:04.702
<v Speaker 2>your life shifts, and I think there are some celebrity

0:13:04.742 --> 0:13:08.982
<v Speaker 2>relationships that, because they've been there for such a long time,

0:13:09.702 --> 0:13:13.142
<v Speaker 2>feel they reflect something about either your own or your

0:13:13.182 --> 0:13:16.982
<v Speaker 2>own life or chapters in your life. Then that's why

0:13:17.022 --> 0:13:18.662
<v Speaker 2>you're so obsessed with it.

0:13:18.902 --> 0:13:22.142
<v Speaker 1>And yet those parallels are striking because remember how with

0:13:22.262 --> 0:13:25.102
<v Speaker 1>Nicole and Tom, there was that same line that Nicole

0:13:25.222 --> 0:13:27.782
<v Speaker 1>was too ambitious, Nicole was working too hard, Nicole took

0:13:27.822 --> 0:13:30.742
<v Speaker 1>her clothes off in a London production of the play

0:13:30.782 --> 0:13:33.182
<v Speaker 1>The Blue Room, and she did, and there was also

0:13:33.222 --> 0:13:35.502
<v Speaker 1>eyes White Shut, which of course they weren't together, but

0:13:35.582 --> 0:13:38.302
<v Speaker 1>there was also this narrative that Nicole was putting herself

0:13:38.302 --> 0:13:39.222
<v Speaker 1>out there too much.

0:13:39.662 --> 0:13:43.182
<v Speaker 3>I think what we can probably conclude at this point

0:13:43.302 --> 0:13:46.381
<v Speaker 3>is that the split is acrimonious like that.

0:13:46.742 --> 0:13:49.422
<v Speaker 2>This is quite because if you can't get your lawyers

0:13:49.422 --> 0:13:51.822
<v Speaker 2>together in a room and your pr people together in

0:13:51.822 --> 0:13:54.502
<v Speaker 2>a room to settle on a statement that you can

0:13:54.542 --> 0:13:57.102
<v Speaker 2>put out to put out a few fires.

0:13:56.902 --> 0:14:00.222
<v Speaker 3>And if you're hearing that one party feels betrayed, it

0:14:00.302 --> 0:14:03.262
<v Speaker 3>is going to be I just keep thinking, that is

0:14:03.302 --> 0:14:05.982
<v Speaker 3>a lot of time with lawyers that they've got ahead

0:14:05.982 --> 0:14:06.222
<v Speaker 3>of them.

0:14:06.862 --> 0:14:08.622
<v Speaker 2>If you do want to go back to the beginning

0:14:08.702 --> 0:14:10.862
<v Speaker 2>of this story, if it is obsessing you, I know

0:14:10.902 --> 0:14:13.982
<v Speaker 2>it isn't obsessing everybody, but it's definitely obsessing. My group chats,

0:14:13.982 --> 0:14:16.742
<v Speaker 2>my GenEx group chats are going off with this story,

0:14:17.102 --> 0:14:20.702
<v Speaker 2>different levels of devastation about it. You can go and

0:14:20.742 --> 0:14:22.942
<v Speaker 2>listen to our subset that we were talking about. There

0:14:23.022 --> 0:14:24.262
<v Speaker 2>is a link in the show notes.

0:14:24.302 --> 0:14:26.902
<v Speaker 1>Go do that in case you missed it. If you

0:14:27.062 --> 0:14:30.142
<v Speaker 1>are a woman over forty, you are doing your makeup wrong.

0:14:30.822 --> 0:14:33.782
<v Speaker 1>This is the confronting truth that I learned from a

0:14:33.942 --> 0:14:37.822
<v Speaker 1>TikTok and Instagram personality called Erica Taylor. She is an

0:14:37.862 --> 0:14:41.382
<v Speaker 1>American makeup artist who has over ten million views on

0:14:41.422 --> 0:14:46.302
<v Speaker 1>YouTube for a video called common Mistakes Which Age Your Face? Now.

0:14:46.302 --> 0:14:48.662
<v Speaker 1>The premise of This is that she puts one hand

0:14:48.782 --> 0:14:51.662
<v Speaker 1>over half of her face and she shows you her

0:14:51.702 --> 0:14:54.502
<v Speaker 1>makeup done according to the way millennials have been taught

0:14:54.542 --> 0:14:57.182
<v Speaker 1>for time immemorial to do their makeup, and then she

0:14:57.262 --> 0:14:59.342
<v Speaker 1>reveals the second half of her face. She takes her

0:14:59.342 --> 0:15:01.742
<v Speaker 1>hand away, and you suddenly see how much younger she

0:15:01.782 --> 0:15:04.262
<v Speaker 1>looks when she follows her own tips on how to

0:15:04.262 --> 0:15:05.062
<v Speaker 1>do your own makeup.

0:15:05.102 --> 0:15:07.542
<v Speaker 3>And importantly, it's the same products. It's not even that

0:15:07.542 --> 0:15:10.182
<v Speaker 3>she's using different products, it's just the great page is different.

0:15:10.582 --> 0:15:13.182
<v Speaker 1>Yes, she's using the same products. Let's have a listen,

0:15:13.182 --> 0:15:15.302
<v Speaker 1>because she's really interesting the way she talks here she

0:15:15.382 --> 0:15:16.182
<v Speaker 1>is on eyeshadow.

0:15:16.502 --> 0:15:18.742
<v Speaker 4>If we're in our forties and up even later thirties,

0:15:18.782 --> 0:15:20.542
<v Speaker 4>and you've been doing the same makeup that you learned

0:15:20.702 --> 0:15:22.742
<v Speaker 4>in high school or in your twenties for the last

0:15:22.742 --> 0:15:25.902
<v Speaker 4>twenty to thirty years, forty years, possibly this is for

0:15:26.022 --> 0:15:28.262
<v Speaker 4>you what we did with our shadow and what we

0:15:28.302 --> 0:15:29.822
<v Speaker 4>should do with her eyeshadow.

0:15:30.022 --> 0:15:32.662
<v Speaker 1>Let's go. And what I found so confronting about this

0:15:32.782 --> 0:15:35.502
<v Speaker 1>and why I ran to Saphora this morning is because

0:15:35.582 --> 0:15:37.862
<v Speaker 1>I thought I had a pretty good handle on how

0:15:37.902 --> 0:15:40.422
<v Speaker 1>to do my makeup, because I am a woman in

0:15:40.422 --> 0:15:43.582
<v Speaker 1>my early forties who read women's magazines religiously all through

0:15:43.582 --> 0:15:45.422
<v Speaker 1>my teens. I know to put the little bit of

0:15:45.462 --> 0:15:47.862
<v Speaker 1>white eye shadow underneath my brows for a bit of pop.

0:15:48.382 --> 0:15:50.862
<v Speaker 1>I know how to do the lining of my lips.

0:15:50.862 --> 0:15:53.142
<v Speaker 1>This is what I thought. No, I was wrong. I

0:15:53.182 --> 0:15:54.982
<v Speaker 1>was wrong about all of it. Would you like to

0:15:55.062 --> 0:15:57.382
<v Speaker 1>know the specific ways in which I've been doing my

0:15:57.422 --> 0:16:01.182
<v Speaker 1>makeup wrong? Number one, you press your eyeliner. You do

0:16:01.262 --> 0:16:04.302
<v Speaker 1>not pull your eyeliner, so you don't think about that.

0:16:04.342 --> 0:16:05.822
<v Speaker 1>First second, pull your.

0:16:05.702 --> 0:16:06.782
<v Speaker 2>Eye out to do this.

0:16:06.902 --> 0:16:09.542
<v Speaker 1>You don't touch it because you're distorting the eye shape.

0:16:09.582 --> 0:16:11.302
<v Speaker 1>Then you just need to let your eye be and

0:16:11.302 --> 0:16:13.382
<v Speaker 1>then you need to press in your eyeliner like it's

0:16:13.382 --> 0:16:14.022
<v Speaker 1>a little stamp.

0:16:14.102 --> 0:16:15.542
<v Speaker 3>I've seen makeup hardist do that.

0:16:15.622 --> 0:16:16.342
<v Speaker 1>I don't.

0:16:16.422 --> 0:16:19.502
<v Speaker 3>I can't do it. It's definitely pul I definitely that's

0:16:19.542 --> 0:16:19.982
<v Speaker 3>what we.

0:16:19.822 --> 0:16:23.382
<v Speaker 1>Were taught to do. Secondly, you need to extend your

0:16:23.382 --> 0:16:25.822
<v Speaker 1>eyeshadow up to your eyebrows.

0:16:26.262 --> 0:16:28.982
<v Speaker 2>I'm not doing that. That's that's crazy, Like.

0:16:28.942 --> 0:16:33.022
<v Speaker 1>That's what she says. That's what she says. Your blush

0:16:33.102 --> 0:16:36.542
<v Speaker 1>it needs to go even higher than you think, even high.

0:16:36.542 --> 0:16:37.902
<v Speaker 1>I don't think my blush.

0:16:37.582 --> 0:16:39.822
<v Speaker 2>Could go high because I've been I've been hearing this

0:16:39.982 --> 0:16:42.782
<v Speaker 2>advice about like we used to think, smile, put it

0:16:42.782 --> 0:16:44.902
<v Speaker 2>on the apple of your cheek. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I've

0:16:44.902 --> 0:16:46.822
<v Speaker 2>been hearing this advice for a while now on Mama

0:16:46.822 --> 0:16:49.382
<v Speaker 2>Mea whenever we do, you know, make up advice for

0:16:49.702 --> 0:16:52.262
<v Speaker 2>over forties, over fifties, it goes not and they're like

0:16:52.382 --> 0:16:54.342
<v Speaker 2>high high. My blush at this point is kind of

0:16:54.382 --> 0:16:59.382
<v Speaker 2>somewhere here, somewhere. I look like it's on your scalp exactly.

0:17:00.022 --> 0:17:03.182
<v Speaker 2>And then finally, don't extend your lipliner to the edges

0:17:03.222 --> 0:17:06.302
<v Speaker 2>of your lips because that will make them look bad

0:17:06.462 --> 0:17:10.062
<v Speaker 2>or something. You just have to like stop halfway interesting

0:17:10.101 --> 0:17:12.421
<v Speaker 2>because that's the opposite for your eyes. They say that

0:17:12.502 --> 0:17:12.982
<v Speaker 2>your eyes.

0:17:13.022 --> 0:17:15.821
<v Speaker 3>I was saying that if you stop kind of bluntly,

0:17:15.821 --> 0:17:17.101
<v Speaker 3>because if you don't know how to do a wing,

0:17:17.222 --> 0:17:18.861
<v Speaker 3>let's be honest, most of us are not good at

0:17:18.861 --> 0:17:21.341
<v Speaker 3>a wing. Then we stop, and apparently that makes our

0:17:21.381 --> 0:17:23.341
<v Speaker 3>eyes look smaller. So we've got to just kind of

0:17:23.341 --> 0:17:25.862
<v Speaker 3>do a little flick to have them look up.

0:17:25.742 --> 0:17:29.581
<v Speaker 1>A little flick, which felt crazy to me, but then

0:17:29.621 --> 0:17:32.141
<v Speaker 1>I tried it today and I got about two hours

0:17:32.182 --> 0:17:35.261
<v Speaker 1>sleep last night, so I think I look better than

0:17:35.302 --> 0:17:37.022
<v Speaker 1>I would have looked without the flick you look.

0:17:38.182 --> 0:17:41.581
<v Speaker 2>But question at this point, if I started coming in

0:17:41.702 --> 0:17:46.502
<v Speaker 2>with a Wingland highlighter, would you think Holly has finally

0:17:46.542 --> 0:17:51.462
<v Speaker 2>lost it? It's just lost. The highlighter is not gonna

0:17:51.502 --> 0:17:52.581
<v Speaker 2>save your sister.

0:17:53.222 --> 0:17:55.341
<v Speaker 1>It does feel crazy. I think this is all in

0:17:55.422 --> 0:17:57.502
<v Speaker 1>service of an idea that I read about, which was

0:17:57.542 --> 0:18:03.421
<v Speaker 1>that babies and children have extremely wide faces. They're very wide, yes,

0:18:03.462 --> 0:18:06.742
<v Speaker 1>and then as your age, it sort of just turns long.

0:18:07.262 --> 0:18:09.262
<v Speaker 1>And so all of these tips are in service of

0:18:09.302 --> 0:18:11.982
<v Speaker 1>making your face look as wide as possible.

0:18:12.381 --> 0:18:15.462
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and apparently the big thing I remember Maya writing

0:18:15.502 --> 0:18:19.582
<v Speaker 3>about this that the thing that ages you is uneven

0:18:19.621 --> 0:18:21.222
<v Speaker 3>skin tone. So what you have to try and do

0:18:21.302 --> 0:18:24.061
<v Speaker 3>is get completely even skin tone. It's like one of

0:18:24.101 --> 0:18:25.341
<v Speaker 3>the first things, that's what things.

0:18:25.742 --> 0:18:28.061
<v Speaker 1>Oh sure, that seems easy to do underneath the harsh

0:18:28.061 --> 0:18:30.942
<v Speaker 1>Australian sun. Thanks me for that very practical tip.

0:18:31.502 --> 0:18:34.582
<v Speaker 2>No powder only creams. Yes, So if I haven't put

0:18:34.581 --> 0:18:35.981
<v Speaker 2>a powder on my face for a long time, but

0:18:36.061 --> 0:18:38.221
<v Speaker 2>if I am now extending.

0:18:37.742 --> 0:18:42.742
<v Speaker 1>My eyes, yes, my brow yes, with your fingers, she says.

0:18:42.542 --> 0:18:45.542
<v Speaker 2>Dark brown like up to here with the This is

0:18:45.542 --> 0:18:47.821
<v Speaker 2>going to be very exciting for you all next week.

0:18:48.341 --> 0:18:49.821
<v Speaker 1>The idea is, you know how we were taught to

0:18:49.821 --> 0:18:52.581
<v Speaker 1>put a sort of gentle fawn color on our lids

0:18:52.621 --> 0:18:55.061
<v Speaker 1>to make it pop. When you get older, you don't

0:18:55.061 --> 0:18:57.141
<v Speaker 1>want it to pop because it looks swollen. You've got

0:18:57.262 --> 0:18:59.502
<v Speaker 1>to use a medium colored eyes shadow on it.

0:18:59.702 --> 0:19:01.661
<v Speaker 2>I feel victimized.

0:19:02.422 --> 0:19:05.262
<v Speaker 3>In a moment the importance of cringe and why gen

0:19:05.381 --> 0:19:13.341
<v Speaker 3>Z in particular have a phobia of it. Friends, it's

0:19:13.381 --> 0:19:15.901
<v Speaker 3>time to put your hiking boots on and climb up

0:19:15.901 --> 0:19:20.501
<v Speaker 3>cringe Mountain. Let me explain. The phrase cringe Mountain comes

0:19:20.542 --> 0:19:25.101
<v Speaker 3>from an Australian creator consultant named Erica Mallett who coined

0:19:25.101 --> 0:19:27.861
<v Speaker 3>the term in twenty twenty three. And she was part

0:19:27.861 --> 0:19:30.341
<v Speaker 3>of a hip hop duo and she was also like

0:19:30.381 --> 0:19:34.341
<v Speaker 3>a radio host on Triple J. All these career pursuits

0:19:34.341 --> 0:19:36.461
<v Speaker 3>were very public, and when she was on Triple J,

0:19:36.621 --> 0:19:40.381
<v Speaker 3>she would get messages through the text line calling her cringe.

0:19:40.422 --> 0:19:42.902
<v Speaker 3>That was the number one piece of feedback. She got

0:19:42.982 --> 0:19:45.662
<v Speaker 3>your cringe. An article in The New York Times by

0:19:45.742 --> 0:19:50.622
<v Speaker 3>Gilander Mizzizzi says this idea of stumbling publicly enduring judgment

0:19:50.661 --> 0:19:53.982
<v Speaker 3>and finding resilience in the process isn't new. What's new

0:19:54.061 --> 0:19:57.821
<v Speaker 3>is the language. The phrase cringe is distinct of the

0:19:57.861 --> 0:20:01.502
<v Speaker 3>Internet age, born of comments sections and meme culture to

0:20:01.581 --> 0:20:06.382
<v Speaker 3>describe acute awkwardness or social embarrassment. Now, rather than get

0:20:06.462 --> 0:20:10.222
<v Speaker 3>hurt by the cringe comments, Mallet decided to embrace the word.

0:20:10.581 --> 0:20:13.701
<v Speaker 3>She decided it meant that she was taking risks, that

0:20:13.782 --> 0:20:17.662
<v Speaker 3>the audience could hear, that she had not yet arrived

0:20:17.702 --> 0:20:21.421
<v Speaker 3>at a place where she was clear and confident, and

0:20:21.462 --> 0:20:26.381
<v Speaker 3>she acknowledged that witnessing that makes people very uncomfortable. Here's

0:20:26.422 --> 0:20:30.262
<v Speaker 3>a little bit of how Erica explains her concept of

0:20:30.341 --> 0:20:31.021
<v Speaker 3>Cringe Mountain.

0:20:31.222 --> 0:20:33.421
<v Speaker 5>People who hate on you for climbing Crench Mountain are

0:20:33.462 --> 0:20:36.142
<v Speaker 5>never the ones who have climbed Cringe Mountain themselves. They

0:20:36.182 --> 0:20:37.381
<v Speaker 5>are never hating from the.

0:20:37.422 --> 0:20:38.061
<v Speaker 1>Land of cool.

0:20:38.101 --> 0:20:40.782
<v Speaker 5>They are always hating from base Camp. So this is

0:20:40.821 --> 0:20:43.702
<v Speaker 5>Crnch Mountain. This is you climbing Cringe Mountain. Everyone has

0:20:43.702 --> 0:20:45.782
<v Speaker 5>to climb Crunch Mountain to get to the land of cool.

0:20:46.022 --> 0:20:49.101
<v Speaker 5>This is base Clamp where everyone starts, and this is

0:20:49.141 --> 0:20:52.061
<v Speaker 5>where the haters live. Nobody who has ever been through

0:20:52.101 --> 0:20:55.821
<v Speaker 5>the climb will hate on someone who is still climbing. Ever,

0:20:56.061 --> 0:20:58.101
<v Speaker 5>because they know what it's like to climb crench Mountain,

0:20:58.141 --> 0:20:59.221
<v Speaker 5>they would never laugh at you.

0:20:59.262 --> 0:21:00.141
<v Speaker 1>They know it's hard.

0:21:00.661 --> 0:21:03.741
<v Speaker 3>Now, this is proven very hard for gen Z in

0:21:03.782 --> 0:21:06.901
<v Speaker 3>particular to do because they live in a culture of

0:21:06.982 --> 0:21:11.421
<v Speaker 3>total digital surveillance, and that has made them a lot

0:21:11.462 --> 0:21:14.942
<v Speaker 3>of research into this hesitant to try new things because

0:21:14.982 --> 0:21:18.302
<v Speaker 3>they don't want to be seen as being cringe. Cringe culture,

0:21:18.381 --> 0:21:21.661
<v Speaker 3>some creative say, is holding these young people back. And

0:21:21.742 --> 0:21:24.341
<v Speaker 3>as Mallett says, you can't reach the land of cool

0:21:24.502 --> 0:21:28.661
<v Speaker 3>until you have climbed your cringe mountain, Amelia, Cringe was

0:21:28.702 --> 0:21:30.941
<v Speaker 3>definitely a thing for me growing up. It was a

0:21:31.022 --> 0:21:34.222
<v Speaker 3>term we threw around. But do you think that there

0:21:34.302 --> 0:21:38.581
<v Speaker 3>is a greater fear now, given that the Internet doesn't

0:21:38.581 --> 0:21:41.941
<v Speaker 3>exist in your home study it exists in your pocket

0:21:41.942 --> 0:21:46.821
<v Speaker 3>all the time, that we're more afraid of looking embarrassing online.

0:21:46.982 --> 0:21:49.941
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Look, I just did a segment on a podcast

0:21:50.022 --> 0:21:53.181
<v Speaker 1>about how I'm now trying out winged eyeliners. So I

0:21:53.182 --> 0:21:56.982
<v Speaker 1>think I speak from a position of real authority from

0:21:57.061 --> 0:22:00.142
<v Speaker 1>the very apex of Cringe Mountain, and the view from

0:22:00.222 --> 0:22:03.022
<v Speaker 1>up here is good, honestly, Like I'm at the top,

0:22:03.581 --> 0:22:05.782
<v Speaker 1>I'm obsessed with this idea because I think it almost

0:22:05.861 --> 0:22:08.622
<v Speaker 1>gives us permission to try new things. It almost gives

0:22:08.661 --> 0:22:11.661
<v Speaker 1>us permission to lean into that embarrassment that we feel

0:22:11.702 --> 0:22:14.101
<v Speaker 1>when we're trying something outside of our comfort zone. And

0:22:14.141 --> 0:22:15.662
<v Speaker 1>the first thing that I thought of when I came

0:22:15.702 --> 0:22:19.581
<v Speaker 1>across this concept was whether it's applicable to book writing.

0:22:19.702 --> 0:22:22.141
<v Speaker 1>This is an achievement that I have not fulfilled in

0:22:22.182 --> 0:22:24.501
<v Speaker 1>my life. I would love to one day. Did you

0:22:24.542 --> 0:22:27.061
<v Speaker 1>feel you were climbing cringe Mountain when you go first

0:22:27.101 --> 0:22:27.782
<v Speaker 1>wrote your books?

0:22:27.901 --> 0:22:32.181
<v Speaker 2>Holly, one hundred percent, like one hundred percent. So much

0:22:32.381 --> 0:22:36.022
<v Speaker 2>of writing is trying to get over your own cringe

0:22:36.182 --> 0:22:39.021
<v Speaker 2>because I don't know who said it, Jesse you might remember.

0:22:39.022 --> 0:22:41.302
<v Speaker 2>But there's some really good writing advice, which is, you

0:22:41.341 --> 0:22:44.022
<v Speaker 2>know your ambition for what you're writing isn't yet matched

0:22:44.061 --> 0:22:46.821
<v Speaker 2>by your skills, particularly when you start like You've got

0:22:46.861 --> 0:22:50.182
<v Speaker 2>some talent, obviously, but in your mind, the thing you're

0:22:50.222 --> 0:22:52.061
<v Speaker 2>going to write is this amazing.

0:22:52.381 --> 0:22:54.181
<v Speaker 3>You know what good writing looks like, and you know

0:22:54.182 --> 0:22:54.941
<v Speaker 3>that what you've done.

0:22:54.821 --> 0:22:57.581
<v Speaker 2>Is yeah, and you're cringing through it, but it's also

0:22:57.581 --> 0:22:59.462
<v Speaker 2>probably far worse in your mind than it is. So

0:22:59.502 --> 0:23:01.861
<v Speaker 2>it's somewhere in the middle, but the cringe of it

0:23:01.942 --> 0:23:03.661
<v Speaker 2>and the how dare you? And the who do you

0:23:03.702 --> 0:23:05.581
<v Speaker 2>think you are? And people are going to laugh at

0:23:05.581 --> 0:23:07.941
<v Speaker 2>that and all of those things. Yes, And then the

0:23:07.982 --> 0:23:11.542
<v Speaker 2>other thing that is enormously cringe about writing a book

0:23:11.621 --> 0:23:16.101
<v Speaker 2>is promoting a book because self promotion. And I think

0:23:16.141 --> 0:23:19.341
<v Speaker 2>it's interesting because you're so right, Jesse, that generations that

0:23:19.381 --> 0:23:22.622
<v Speaker 2>have grown up with internet surveillance are very sensitive to cringe.

0:23:23.141 --> 0:23:26.542
<v Speaker 2>But gen X is very sensitive to self promotional cringe

0:23:26.581 --> 0:23:29.381
<v Speaker 2>because we grew up being told that selling out is

0:23:29.422 --> 0:23:32.661
<v Speaker 2>the worst thing you can do, Whereas if you've grown

0:23:32.742 --> 0:23:36.022
<v Speaker 2>up with Instagram and people basically selling things to you

0:23:36.302 --> 0:23:39.581
<v Speaker 2>all the time, everywhere you look, in every format, you

0:23:39.702 --> 0:23:42.341
<v Speaker 2>kind of take a certain level of self promotion and

0:23:42.381 --> 0:23:46.142
<v Speaker 2>selling on board. But gen X's we were told that's

0:23:46.262 --> 0:23:49.302
<v Speaker 2>very uncool, and then suddenly you have to be out

0:23:49.302 --> 0:23:52.661
<v Speaker 2>there all the time self promoting, and the cringe is real.

0:23:53.101 --> 0:23:57.101
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, I think with any creative process there is

0:23:57.222 --> 0:24:01.461
<v Speaker 3>certainly an element of cringe. And I always think that

0:24:01.661 --> 0:24:05.341
<v Speaker 3>the most ruthless reviews are written by people who have

0:24:05.381 --> 0:24:07.621
<v Speaker 3>never written the book they want to write, Like I

0:24:07.661 --> 0:24:10.942
<v Speaker 3>think Goodreads is full of peace, people tearing apart books

0:24:11.542 --> 0:24:14.262
<v Speaker 3>with a sense that they could do a better job,

0:24:14.821 --> 0:24:16.902
<v Speaker 3>and they might be able to do a better job,

0:24:16.901 --> 0:24:19.581
<v Speaker 3>but they've never written the book. Like cringe is real

0:24:19.942 --> 0:24:25.101
<v Speaker 3>in that there's this vicarious empathetic embarrassment that we see

0:24:25.141 --> 0:24:28.941
<v Speaker 3>for people, even someone doing something embarrassing online or making

0:24:28.982 --> 0:24:31.302
<v Speaker 3>a mistake or whatever. You go, oh, and that's a

0:24:31.381 --> 0:24:36.861
<v Speaker 3>deeply psychological, just true emotion. But at the same time,

0:24:36.901 --> 0:24:41.022
<v Speaker 3>I think there is a sense even online of who

0:24:41.061 --> 0:24:43.502
<v Speaker 3>do you think you are? With people who are either

0:24:43.542 --> 0:24:48.021
<v Speaker 3>publishing anything, their ambition is worn on their sleeve. Like

0:24:48.901 --> 0:24:52.422
<v Speaker 3>in some ways gen Z are able to throw off

0:24:52.462 --> 0:24:55.142
<v Speaker 3>those shackles because the content creator is something that never

0:24:55.141 --> 0:24:58.421
<v Speaker 3>would have existed among say boomers. But then on the

0:24:58.422 --> 0:25:02.021
<v Speaker 3>other hand, I was reading that there is this fear

0:25:02.302 --> 0:25:04.861
<v Speaker 3>among I think it was Tyler, the creator was talking

0:25:04.901 --> 0:25:08.421
<v Speaker 3>about how young people are scared of dancing now, like

0:25:08.462 --> 0:25:10.462
<v Speaker 3>they'll go out and they he was in some situation

0:25:10.542 --> 0:25:12.381
<v Speaker 3>they weren't dancing and he was like, why aren't you dancing?

0:25:12.381 --> 0:25:14.061
<v Speaker 3>And they were like, I'm scared someone's going to film me.

0:25:14.861 --> 0:25:17.061
<v Speaker 2>Like, but this is so real because I think about

0:25:17.061 --> 0:25:19.502
<v Speaker 2>this for my daughter's generation, well, but not only, but

0:25:20.222 --> 0:25:24.261
<v Speaker 2>they've literally grown up knowing that, and maybe millennials did too.

0:25:24.341 --> 0:25:28.302
<v Speaker 2>You tell me, but that whatever you're doing, even in

0:25:28.341 --> 0:25:30.782
<v Speaker 2>your friend group, even in your school, even in your life,

0:25:30.782 --> 0:25:33.181
<v Speaker 2>somebody somewhere is probably bitching about it on the internet,

0:25:33.182 --> 0:25:35.741
<v Speaker 2>as in I don't mean publicly shaming like we do

0:25:35.821 --> 0:25:38.022
<v Speaker 2>with a celebrity, but in negative chat, in a group

0:25:38.141 --> 0:25:39.821
<v Speaker 2>chat that is a side chat to the one that

0:25:39.861 --> 0:25:42.262
<v Speaker 2>you have with your friends in the dms that you're

0:25:42.302 --> 0:25:44.821
<v Speaker 2>not invited to, that someone will be going did you

0:25:44.861 --> 0:25:46.982
<v Speaker 2>see that picture that so and so posted? Who does

0:25:47.022 --> 0:25:49.581
<v Speaker 2>she think she is? Or did you see that thing

0:25:49.581 --> 0:25:51.542
<v Speaker 2>that they tried to do on the football field or

0:25:51.581 --> 0:25:54.061
<v Speaker 2>on the stage at the school musical or whatever, And

0:25:54.101 --> 0:25:56.741
<v Speaker 2>who do they think they are? That is a very

0:25:56.742 --> 0:25:59.542
<v Speaker 2>different experience than the one that I had growing up,

0:25:59.581 --> 0:26:02.141
<v Speaker 2>for example, where of course people bitched about people. I'm

0:26:02.141 --> 0:26:04.502
<v Speaker 2>not pretending that's a new invention, but there were so

0:26:04.702 --> 0:26:06.982
<v Speaker 2>fewer forums and public places to do it. So if

0:26:07.022 --> 0:26:11.581
<v Speaker 2>you literally grow up knowing that everything you're doing is

0:26:11.661 --> 0:26:14.222
<v Speaker 2>being there's a commentary to it somewhere, and it will

0:26:14.262 --> 0:26:19.141
<v Speaker 2>probably be mostly negative. It takes a very particular type

0:26:19.182 --> 0:26:22.782
<v Speaker 2>of strengths to push through and climb cringe Mountain.

0:26:22.861 --> 0:26:27.261
<v Speaker 1>You've just made me realize that cringe is basically doing

0:26:27.381 --> 0:26:31.461
<v Speaker 1>something in the view of the Internet, which these days

0:26:31.502 --> 0:26:35.462
<v Speaker 1>means everything. It's different from embarrassment. When Jesse and I

0:26:35.782 --> 0:26:39.582
<v Speaker 1>were younger and we were growing up as millennials who

0:26:39.621 --> 0:26:43.501
<v Speaker 1>maybe didn't even have smartphones yet, embarrassment was when you

0:26:43.542 --> 0:26:47.622
<v Speaker 1>did something and you felt a little bit embarrassed. Cringe

0:26:47.661 --> 0:26:50.741
<v Speaker 1>is when someone's watching you and they cringe. It's a

0:26:50.782 --> 0:26:51.422
<v Speaker 1>different thing.

0:26:51.942 --> 0:26:54.381
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And as you say, Amelia, it's like, if you

0:26:54.422 --> 0:26:57.702
<v Speaker 3>want to launch a new business central to that strategy,

0:26:57.742 --> 0:27:01.061
<v Speaker 3>we'll probably be making an Instagram page, and then whether

0:27:01.101 --> 0:27:04.422
<v Speaker 3>that page grows or not is in public view. And

0:27:04.861 --> 0:27:06.542
<v Speaker 3>maybe you get a new job. Do you post it

0:27:06.581 --> 0:27:08.742
<v Speaker 3>on LinkedIn? Do you then do a few posts about

0:27:08.742 --> 0:27:12.061
<v Speaker 3>your successes there and image of you at a conference?

0:27:12.742 --> 0:27:13.702
<v Speaker 2>And what's the line?

0:27:13.782 --> 0:27:13.861
<v Speaker 1>Like?

0:27:14.101 --> 0:27:17.341
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like, I see these people over here sharing their

0:27:17.381 --> 0:27:19.341
<v Speaker 2>successes in a very proud way and it seems to

0:27:19.341 --> 0:27:21.262
<v Speaker 2>be working for them. Can I do that or does that?

0:27:21.581 --> 0:27:21.661
<v Speaker 1>Like?

0:27:21.702 --> 0:27:24.142
<v Speaker 2>What's the line? And sometimes you're gonna.

0:27:23.782 --> 0:27:28.061
<v Speaker 3>Do you think that success hinges on a high tolerance

0:27:28.061 --> 0:27:32.101
<v Speaker 3>for cringe? Do you think that people who climb the mountain.

0:27:32.702 --> 0:27:35.341
<v Speaker 3>So this woman who does the videos, she found an

0:27:35.381 --> 0:27:37.581
<v Speaker 3>old clip of post Malone, and post Malone is, you know,

0:27:37.661 --> 0:27:40.741
<v Speaker 3>one of the most successful recording artists currently and this

0:27:40.821 --> 0:27:43.422
<v Speaker 3>first film clip could only be described as cringe, which

0:27:43.462 --> 0:27:45.421
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure if you went back to early Taylor Swift

0:27:45.502 --> 0:27:46.101
<v Speaker 3>or if you went.

0:27:45.982 --> 0:27:48.182
<v Speaker 2>Back Taylor Swift is a very good example.

0:27:48.341 --> 0:27:50.501
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and you just have to greet your teeth and

0:27:50.542 --> 0:27:53.422
<v Speaker 3>go call me cringe. I'm on my own journey. Do

0:27:53.462 --> 0:27:56.382
<v Speaker 3>you think that the more tolerance you have for cringe,

0:27:56.861 --> 0:27:58.341
<v Speaker 3>the higher you'll climb.

0:27:58.542 --> 0:28:01.061
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Tailor Swift's a great example. Another example is Robin.

0:28:01.262 --> 0:28:03.262
<v Speaker 1>Think about the fact that in the first part of

0:28:03.262 --> 0:28:07.182
<v Speaker 1>her career, Robin was really seen as a somewhat embarrassing

0:28:07.462 --> 0:28:10.502
<v Speaker 1>pop artist, and then she comes out with a single

0:28:10.542 --> 0:28:12.702
<v Speaker 1>that's probably one of the greatest songs of all time,

0:28:12.982 --> 0:28:17.302
<v Speaker 1>Dancing on my Own, and she's not cringe anymore. But

0:28:17.542 --> 0:28:20.621
<v Speaker 1>both Taylor and Robin did many years in the cringe trenches.

0:28:21.022 --> 0:28:23.702
<v Speaker 2>But there are plenty of people who still would call

0:28:23.742 --> 0:28:25.581
<v Speaker 2>Taylor Swift cringe right Like, I'm not one of them.

0:28:25.621 --> 0:28:27.341
<v Speaker 2>We're not bashing her. Let's face, She's going to own

0:28:27.341 --> 0:28:29.142
<v Speaker 2>the next few days. Out louders. As we know she's

0:28:29.182 --> 0:28:32.102
<v Speaker 2>got an album dropping on Friday, you'll be hearing about it.

0:28:33.141 --> 0:28:35.462
<v Speaker 2>But there are people who I watched one of her

0:28:35.742 --> 0:28:38.542
<v Speaker 2>videos this week. It was like for kmart or something,

0:28:38.622 --> 0:28:41.261
<v Speaker 2>and she was directing a version of her self target.

0:28:41.582 --> 0:28:44.062
<v Speaker 2>She was directing a version of herself in this video,

0:28:44.102 --> 0:28:46.102
<v Speaker 2>and one Taylor was dressed as the showgirl and was

0:28:46.102 --> 0:28:48.342
<v Speaker 2>a bit wobbly on her feet and like looking wrong,

0:28:48.382 --> 0:28:50.582
<v Speaker 2>and the other Taylor was the director. Now there was

0:28:50.661 --> 0:28:53.461
<v Speaker 2>something a little bit cringe about that video, right, But

0:28:53.542 --> 0:28:57.582
<v Speaker 2>Taylor Swift owns the universe, So who cares if there

0:28:57.582 --> 0:29:00.622
<v Speaker 2>are people cringing about her? And cringe is to do

0:29:00.702 --> 0:29:03.222
<v Speaker 2>with cool. Cool people don't like to ever be seen

0:29:03.262 --> 0:29:06.622
<v Speaker 2>to try anything, and at some point you have to

0:29:06.782 --> 0:29:10.502
<v Speaker 2>try to succeed anything. And it sounds like such a

0:29:10.702 --> 0:29:14.302
<v Speaker 2>very cliched little mantra, but I think about it with

0:29:14.422 --> 0:29:17.302
<v Speaker 2>my daughter, who not to turn this into a parenting conversation,

0:29:17.382 --> 0:29:20.661
<v Speaker 2>but she loves football, she loves NFL. Sometimes on the

0:29:20.661 --> 0:29:23.302
<v Speaker 2>field she'll make a really embarrassing mistake, like try and

0:29:23.342 --> 0:29:25.302
<v Speaker 2>run and bounce the ball and it gets out of

0:29:25.342 --> 0:29:28.782
<v Speaker 2>her hands. And it's more she's mortified because she knows

0:29:28.822 --> 0:29:31.102
<v Speaker 2>her friends have seen it. She knows she tried to

0:29:31.182 --> 0:29:34.102
<v Speaker 2>do something cool and she fucked it. Yeah, and the

0:29:34.222 --> 0:29:35.981
<v Speaker 2>cringe is all part of it. And she'll come off

0:29:36.022 --> 0:29:38.222
<v Speaker 2>and she's like, I shouldn't have even I'm not good

0:29:38.222 --> 0:29:39.862
<v Speaker 2>at bouncing, I shouldn't have tried to bounce.

0:29:39.902 --> 0:29:42.461
<v Speaker 3>And it's like, so it's a cringe about really the

0:29:42.502 --> 0:29:44.542
<v Speaker 3>fear of trying. And if you've got a whole generation

0:29:44.622 --> 0:29:47.662
<v Speaker 3>who is internalized the fear of trying.

0:29:47.462 --> 0:29:53.741
<v Speaker 2>Being caught trying try in private is okay. But as

0:29:53.782 --> 0:29:56.221
<v Speaker 2>you just said about cringe being trying something in the

0:29:56.262 --> 0:29:58.981
<v Speaker 2>view of the internet, that's so true.

0:29:59.902 --> 0:30:03.862
<v Speaker 3>Eventually you've kind of got to be seen with most

0:30:03.902 --> 0:30:07.502
<v Speaker 3>of what you do, and failure is obviously in terms

0:30:07.542 --> 0:30:09.502
<v Speaker 3>of growth, mindset and getting to where you want to be.

0:30:09.702 --> 0:30:13.422
<v Speaker 3>Failure is one thing, but cringe is a whole other.

0:30:13.661 --> 0:30:17.782
<v Speaker 3>There's shame and embarrassment just tied up with that that

0:30:17.902 --> 0:30:18.702
<v Speaker 3>no one wants to feel.

0:30:18.782 --> 0:30:20.742
<v Speaker 2>And it's why this analogy is great, right, because it's

0:30:20.782 --> 0:30:22.941
<v Speaker 2>the idea you could now go, you know, I'm pitching

0:30:22.942 --> 0:30:24.982
<v Speaker 2>my tent on cringe Mountain for six months, you know

0:30:25.022 --> 0:30:27.582
<v Speaker 2>what I mean, Like, yeah, I've got to cringe all out.

0:30:27.622 --> 0:30:29.582
<v Speaker 2>I know I'm going to make some mistakes in however

0:30:29.661 --> 0:30:31.462
<v Speaker 2>I talk about this thing or do this thing.

0:30:32.142 --> 0:30:33.221
<v Speaker 3>Cringe isn't going to kill me.

0:30:33.422 --> 0:30:36.622
<v Speaker 1>It's inherent to any creative endeavor. In twenty twenty five,

0:30:36.702 --> 0:30:40.302
<v Speaker 1>I think about an acquaintance of mine who has recently

0:30:40.382 --> 0:30:45.221
<v Speaker 1>become somewhat incongruously a musician. She was always a musician,

0:30:45.302 --> 0:30:48.021
<v Speaker 1>but she's now trying to make a niche in music

0:30:48.262 --> 0:30:52.461
<v Speaker 1>for the dom and sub community, and so she just

0:30:52.502 --> 0:30:54.542
<v Speaker 1>sort of like came out as a member of that

0:30:54.582 --> 0:30:57.102
<v Speaker 1>community who was also a musician who writes music about

0:30:57.142 --> 0:31:01.902
<v Speaker 1>it on Instagram exactly. And she I've watched her career

0:31:02.102 --> 0:31:05.221
<v Speaker 1>kind of develop and really take on a lot of

0:31:05.262 --> 0:31:08.221
<v Speaker 1>momentum in the last year or two on Instagram, and

0:31:08.262 --> 0:31:11.782
<v Speaker 1>I think about how much cringe she must have felt

0:31:12.022 --> 0:31:14.742
<v Speaker 1>coming out to everyone in her life about the fact

0:31:14.742 --> 0:31:16.661
<v Speaker 1>that she was in this community and that she wanted

0:31:16.661 --> 0:31:19.302
<v Speaker 1>to write music about this community. But if she wants

0:31:19.302 --> 0:31:21.902
<v Speaker 1>to succeed as a musician these days, you just got

0:31:21.942 --> 0:31:22.941
<v Speaker 1>to climb cringe mountain.

0:31:23.022 --> 0:31:28.982
<v Speaker 3>Question, Actually, is it only worth climbing cringe mountain if

0:31:28.982 --> 0:31:30.822
<v Speaker 3>you do land in the land of cool? Because I

0:31:30.822 --> 0:31:33.222
<v Speaker 3>think I've had moments of climbing Cringe Mountain I'm thinking

0:31:33.302 --> 0:31:36.022
<v Speaker 3>of I have an acquaintance who was doing something on

0:31:36.062 --> 0:31:38.902
<v Speaker 3>the internet, very specific thing, and all of us were going,

0:31:38.982 --> 0:31:40.142
<v Speaker 3>what the hell is she doing?

0:31:40.422 --> 0:31:42.742
<v Speaker 1>Like this is mother in law?

0:31:43.661 --> 0:31:46.981
<v Speaker 3>Yes it was me, as she was doing something that

0:31:47.102 --> 0:31:51.582
<v Speaker 3>none of us understood. This niche has blown up to

0:31:51.822 --> 0:31:54.462
<v Speaker 3>such an extent that this person is the most successful

0:31:54.462 --> 0:31:56.942
<v Speaker 3>person any of us know. Most people will have heard

0:31:56.982 --> 0:32:00.502
<v Speaker 3>of them. They have this incredible profile. It's amazing. And

0:32:00.542 --> 0:32:02.262
<v Speaker 3>now all of us look at each other and go,

0:32:03.022 --> 0:32:03.661
<v Speaker 3>we were wrong.

0:32:03.742 --> 0:32:04.982
<v Speaker 2>So she's in the land of cool.

0:32:05.022 --> 0:32:07.382
<v Speaker 3>She's absolutely in the land of cool. And we now

0:32:07.422 --> 0:32:10.422
<v Speaker 3>look retrospectively on cringe and go, we were cringe for cringing.

0:32:11.022 --> 0:32:14.942
<v Speaker 3>But if that person stayed at two hundred views, if

0:32:14.942 --> 0:32:17.741
<v Speaker 3>there is no growth like that does happen for a

0:32:17.742 --> 0:32:20.661
<v Speaker 3>lot of people, And then us a board mission.

0:32:20.342 --> 0:32:22.741
<v Speaker 2>The narratives that you'll try, and you'll try, and then

0:32:22.782 --> 0:32:24.542
<v Speaker 2>one day you will see like it just isn't true

0:32:24.582 --> 0:32:27.702
<v Speaker 2>for everything. Very many of us never achieve our dreams,

0:32:27.742 --> 0:32:30.261
<v Speaker 2>as they say, so I think that's fine. But if

0:32:30.262 --> 0:32:32.062
<v Speaker 2>your friend had stayed on two hundred views, how long

0:32:32.102 --> 0:32:34.422
<v Speaker 2>would she have slogged up Cringe Mountain four before she'd

0:32:34.462 --> 0:32:37.542
<v Speaker 2>chosen a different path to really talture this analogy. Yeah,

0:32:37.622 --> 0:32:40.022
<v Speaker 2>I was on Saturday night. I went to see Ben Lee, right,

0:32:40.302 --> 0:32:44.862
<v Speaker 2>iconic Australian musician, and he was playing through an iconic

0:32:44.902 --> 0:32:47.182
<v Speaker 2>album of his that's twenty five years old now, right,

0:32:47.422 --> 0:32:49.102
<v Speaker 2>And one of the songs on the album is We're

0:32:49.102 --> 0:32:52.622
<v Speaker 2>all in this together all yea, And he before he

0:32:52.742 --> 0:32:54.542
<v Speaker 2>sung that, because he sang those songs in order, and

0:32:54.542 --> 0:32:56.902
<v Speaker 2>it gets towards the end before he sings that song,

0:32:56.942 --> 0:33:01.022
<v Speaker 2>he basically apologizes for it. He basically says, everybody thinks

0:33:01.062 --> 0:33:02.021
<v Speaker 2>this song is cringe.

0:33:02.622 --> 0:33:03.022
<v Speaker 1>It is.

0:33:03.302 --> 0:33:07.262
<v Speaker 2>He basically was like, it is cringe, but funnily enough,

0:33:07.661 --> 0:33:10.982
<v Speaker 2>Australia or the world seems to find this song again

0:33:11.102 --> 0:33:14.742
<v Speaker 2>at particular moments when they need it. But he basically

0:33:14.782 --> 0:33:19.542
<v Speaker 2>sort of said, I'm sorry that this is cheesy and

0:33:19.622 --> 0:33:21.182
<v Speaker 2>some of you find it embarrassing.

0:33:21.462 --> 0:33:23.662
<v Speaker 1>He sort of said sorry, not sorry. Yeah, he did,

0:33:23.742 --> 0:33:26.701
<v Speaker 1>And that brings me to I think my proposition to

0:33:26.782 --> 0:33:29.022
<v Speaker 1>the two of you about Cringe Mountain, which is this

0:33:29.062 --> 0:33:31.741
<v Speaker 1>is something that we've talked about how jen Z in

0:33:31.782 --> 0:33:34.701
<v Speaker 1>particular is struggling with the concept of Cringe Mountain. I

0:33:34.742 --> 0:33:36.782
<v Speaker 1>think as you get older, you realize that you can

0:33:36.862 --> 0:33:39.222
<v Speaker 1>just keep climbing the mountain and that you just surrender

0:33:39.302 --> 0:33:41.782
<v Speaker 1>to the cringe. It's not about the destination, it's about

0:33:41.822 --> 0:33:42.382
<v Speaker 1>the journey.

0:33:42.661 --> 0:33:46.662
<v Speaker 3>You feel less observed and you just say, I'm fed,

0:33:48.542 --> 0:33:51.102
<v Speaker 3>and you know what, no one cares about me, and

0:33:51.142 --> 0:33:53.262
<v Speaker 3>no one is looking at me as much as I

0:33:53.302 --> 0:33:53.741
<v Speaker 3>think they are.

0:33:54.262 --> 0:33:56.462
<v Speaker 1>I want to talk about something that I deeply love

0:33:56.661 --> 0:33:58.822
<v Speaker 1>and it's something that I do when I'm feeling sad.

0:33:59.502 --> 0:34:01.502
<v Speaker 1>That's what I do is I pull up my phone

0:34:01.622 --> 0:34:05.302
<v Speaker 1>and I start watching the Jennifer Hudson show Spirit Tunnels.

0:34:06.102 --> 0:34:07.582
<v Speaker 1>Let me tell you what the spirit tunnels are if

0:34:07.622 --> 0:34:10.022
<v Speaker 1>you don't know about them. So, Jennifer Hudson is an

0:34:10.022 --> 0:34:12.582
<v Speaker 1>Egot winner. She's won an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar,

0:34:12.622 --> 0:34:15.142
<v Speaker 1>and a Tony. She now has a talk show that

0:34:15.342 --> 0:34:20.301
<v Speaker 1>is pretty not particularly acclaimed or particularly widely viewed. But

0:34:20.542 --> 0:34:23.381
<v Speaker 1>the Spirit Tunnel, which is what guests do before they

0:34:23.422 --> 0:34:26.502
<v Speaker 1>come on the show, has in fact gone viral worldwide.

0:34:26.542 --> 0:34:29.102
<v Speaker 1>And what happens is the guests before they come on set,

0:34:29.142 --> 0:34:32.261
<v Speaker 1>they walk down a very normal corporate looking corridor which

0:34:32.302 --> 0:34:35.582
<v Speaker 1>is lined with the staff of Jennifer Hudson's show, and

0:34:35.622 --> 0:34:38.021
<v Speaker 1>the staff sing and they clap, drawing on the soul

0:34:38.062 --> 0:34:43.062
<v Speaker 1>train tradition, and the guests engaging in singing and dancing

0:34:43.062 --> 0:34:46.341
<v Speaker 1>and clapping, and really what happens is you watch their reactions,

0:34:46.382 --> 0:34:48.942
<v Speaker 1>and in their reactions, you learn everything about that person.

0:34:50.221 --> 0:34:54.142
<v Speaker 1>So there are two very best spirit tunnel performances, and

0:34:54.181 --> 0:34:57.542
<v Speaker 1>the first is from Aaron Pierre, who voiced Mafasa in

0:34:57.582 --> 0:35:01.781
<v Speaker 1>the Mafaser movie. This next spirit tunnel rock the Jinsennet.

0:35:02.661 --> 0:35:04.742
<v Speaker 4>I'm not even sure I need to set this clip

0:35:04.822 --> 0:35:06.861
<v Speaker 4>up at all. I'm gonna just let.

0:35:06.862 --> 0:35:16.542
<v Speaker 1>Y'all watch, Okay, So I know that this is in

0:35:16.582 --> 0:35:19.182
<v Speaker 1>a visual medium and you won't be able to fully

0:35:19.181 --> 0:35:21.861
<v Speaker 1>appreciate this until you watch it. But Aaron Pierre, who

0:35:21.902 --> 0:35:24.022
<v Speaker 1>no one had heard of before this spirit tunnel performance.

0:35:24.102 --> 0:35:26.261
<v Speaker 1>Let's be clear, he was not a famous actor, but

0:35:26.382 --> 0:35:31.661
<v Speaker 1>now he is famous because of how unbelievably smooth, appealing

0:35:31.982 --> 0:35:35.181
<v Speaker 1>attractive he is as he walks down this spirit time.

0:35:35.261 --> 0:35:37.341
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to share it on our Instagram story so

0:35:37.422 --> 0:35:38.301
<v Speaker 3>everyone can find it.

0:35:38.422 --> 0:35:42.062
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and if you are confused about spirits, Chunnles full Stop.

0:35:42.102 --> 0:35:44.782
<v Speaker 2>We shared yesterday the top five, So get your phone,

0:35:44.862 --> 0:35:47.022
<v Speaker 2>go to Mama Maha out loud Instagram and look at

0:35:47.022 --> 0:35:48.782
<v Speaker 2>those and you know exactly what we're talking about.

0:35:48.822 --> 0:35:52.102
<v Speaker 1>The second spirit tunnel that I have to mention because

0:35:52.102 --> 0:35:54.102
<v Speaker 1>I think about it, it's my Roman Empire. I think

0:35:54.142 --> 0:35:56.142
<v Speaker 1>about it a couple of times a week. It's Michelle

0:35:56.181 --> 0:35:59.622
<v Speaker 1>Obama who bought a certain confidence and an ease which

0:35:59.701 --> 0:36:02.661
<v Speaker 1>I just aspire to having in everyday life, not just

0:36:02.701 --> 0:36:12.022
<v Speaker 1>in spirit tunnels. Everybody that was her going uh oh.

0:36:12.102 --> 0:36:14.502
<v Speaker 1>That was sung to the tune of Stevie Wonders I Wish,

0:36:14.542 --> 0:36:17.421
<v Speaker 1>and it's just a delightful thirty seconds. There are other

0:36:17.462 --> 0:36:21.102
<v Speaker 1>great ones. Gwen Stefani Usher came in on rollerblades. Chelsea

0:36:21.181 --> 0:36:25.102
<v Speaker 1>Handler was an interesting one because she's obviously not comfortable dancing,

0:36:25.261 --> 0:36:28.422
<v Speaker 1>which maybe puts her a disadvantage in spirit tunnel terms.

0:36:28.462 --> 0:36:31.021
<v Speaker 1>But she was very endearingly awkward and she kept walking

0:36:31.022 --> 0:36:33.142
<v Speaker 1>down the tunnel saying I wish I could dance better,

0:36:33.181 --> 0:36:35.062
<v Speaker 1>and it kind of softened her image because I think

0:36:35.062 --> 0:36:36.662
<v Speaker 1>of her as someone who's quite brash.

0:36:36.781 --> 0:36:39.901
<v Speaker 2>I have a question, so I love your theory that

0:36:40.022 --> 0:36:43.502
<v Speaker 2>how you react to a spirit tunnel reveals who you are,

0:36:43.622 --> 0:36:45.982
<v Speaker 2>because it's kind of like when everybody sings happy Birthday

0:36:46.022 --> 0:36:47.102
<v Speaker 2>to you in public.

0:36:46.862 --> 0:36:48.221
<v Speaker 3>Or something exactly like that.

0:36:48.302 --> 0:36:51.741
<v Speaker 2>But how comfortable you are with that, and Australians and

0:36:51.822 --> 0:36:55.701
<v Speaker 2>English people like we were not not comfortable reveals a

0:36:55.701 --> 0:36:58.742
<v Speaker 2>lot about you. But also this has become, as you said,

0:36:58.781 --> 0:37:01.462
<v Speaker 2>like the Jennifer Hudson show, maybe successful, maybe not, but

0:37:01.622 --> 0:37:04.701
<v Speaker 2>just like James Cordon's carpool Karaoke or so like, this

0:37:04.741 --> 0:37:08.142
<v Speaker 2>has become the social play for that show. And so

0:37:08.302 --> 0:37:09.982
<v Speaker 2>now if I was ever in vite to go on

0:37:10.102 --> 0:37:12.502
<v Speaker 2>Jennifer Hudson, I would have to prep with my team, right,

0:37:12.582 --> 0:37:14.942
<v Speaker 2>I would have to be like, how should I react.

0:37:15.062 --> 0:37:17.622
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how to dance. I'm not talented, I

0:37:17.622 --> 0:37:18.661
<v Speaker 2>don't know much the bet.

0:37:19.342 --> 0:37:19.941
<v Speaker 1>Would it be.

0:37:19.942 --> 0:37:24.422
<v Speaker 2>Better for me to just like high five people as

0:37:24.302 --> 0:37:26.821
<v Speaker 2>the tunnel or should I try and do a bit

0:37:26.822 --> 0:37:28.701
<v Speaker 2>of a shimmy or should I just pretend I'm not

0:37:28.741 --> 0:37:33.022
<v Speaker 2>there choreographs? So now there must be strategy.

0:37:33.102 --> 0:37:35.661
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well it's interesting because only one we only know

0:37:35.781 --> 0:37:38.662
<v Speaker 1>of one person who's simply abstained from the Spirit Tunnel,

0:37:38.741 --> 0:37:41.262
<v Speaker 1>and that was Noah Wiley from the Pit and obviously

0:37:41.342 --> 0:37:43.502
<v Speaker 1>from Er and I actually kind of love that move.

0:37:43.622 --> 0:37:45.181
<v Speaker 1>It's like he knew it wasn't going to do him

0:37:45.181 --> 0:37:46.861
<v Speaker 1>any favors, so we just said, I'm not going to

0:37:46.902 --> 0:37:47.102
<v Speaker 1>do it.

0:37:47.181 --> 0:37:49.222
<v Speaker 3>He says in the interview. He was like, I refuse

0:37:49.302 --> 0:37:52.102
<v Speaker 3>to dance in public. And I was like same, Like

0:37:52.261 --> 0:37:56.382
<v Speaker 3>I didn't know we could just range Mountain, Jesse range mountains.

0:37:56.502 --> 0:37:59.462
<v Speaker 3>I was so indeed. I saw that, and I was like,

0:37:59.862 --> 0:38:01.901
<v Speaker 3>I have never related more to anyone because the other

0:38:01.942 --> 0:38:03.902
<v Speaker 3>one that I saw that I highly related to was

0:38:04.102 --> 0:38:04.782
<v Speaker 3>Simon Cowell.

0:38:04.862 --> 0:38:07.142
<v Speaker 1>Oh, dear, let's talk about Simon kaw.

0:38:07.221 --> 0:38:10.622
<v Speaker 2>Kind of why this really got into psyche this week.

0:38:11.221 --> 0:38:12.981
<v Speaker 2>He didn't know what he should.

0:38:12.661 --> 0:38:15.821
<v Speaker 1>Have abstained is. I think I guess he figured, look,

0:38:15.862 --> 0:38:18.142
<v Speaker 1>I'm in the music industry. It would be churlish of

0:38:18.261 --> 0:38:20.301
<v Speaker 1>me not to get involved in the Spirit Tunnel. But

0:38:20.661 --> 0:38:23.382
<v Speaker 1>let's just say he did the Nicole Kidman seal clap,

0:38:23.462 --> 0:38:26.741
<v Speaker 1>if we remember that, where the fingers sort of display

0:38:26.862 --> 0:38:30.662
<v Speaker 1>outwards and he just looks intensely uncomfortable. Here's a question

0:38:30.741 --> 0:38:34.142
<v Speaker 1>for you, Holly, do you think any english person could

0:38:34.221 --> 0:38:35.661
<v Speaker 1>ever do the Spirit Tunnel? No?

0:38:35.942 --> 0:38:41.862
<v Speaker 2>I think that English people are not well plased. Oh no, no, no, Actually,

0:38:41.902 --> 0:38:44.102
<v Speaker 2>he would be endearing in how grumpy he would be

0:38:44.142 --> 0:38:45.142
<v Speaker 2>about the whole thing.

0:38:45.502 --> 0:38:47.302
<v Speaker 1>But it's just he would do finger guns.

0:38:47.342 --> 0:38:49.462
<v Speaker 2>We don't know what to do, Like, it's just not

0:38:49.781 --> 0:38:52.261
<v Speaker 2>in us. It's just not there. The other thing I

0:38:52.261 --> 0:38:54.221
<v Speaker 2>always think about the Spirit Tunnel, and maybe this is

0:38:54.261 --> 0:38:56.701
<v Speaker 2>just because of my workplace, is I don't know if

0:38:56.701 --> 0:38:58.741
<v Speaker 2>the people who are doing all the singing clapping are

0:38:58.781 --> 0:39:02.382
<v Speaker 2>really the crew, but those poor people have to learn

0:39:02.462 --> 0:39:05.821
<v Speaker 2>us off rehearse it, presumably, and then they're having a

0:39:05.862 --> 0:39:08.301
<v Speaker 2>busy day and they're doing all their things and Jennifer's like,

0:39:08.502 --> 0:39:11.542
<v Speaker 2>get up, its Spirit Tunnel time. And you know, for

0:39:11.661 --> 0:39:15.301
<v Speaker 2>Michelle Obama that corridor is packed, but for some other

0:39:15.382 --> 0:39:18.502
<v Speaker 2>people it's a little light on. And it just reminds

0:39:18.542 --> 0:39:21.261
<v Speaker 2>me of sometimes we've had like politicians into Mama Maya

0:39:21.582 --> 0:39:25.302
<v Speaker 2>and you know, we're like, everybody look like really happy

0:39:25.302 --> 0:39:25.821
<v Speaker 2>to see them.

0:39:25.862 --> 0:39:26.142
<v Speaker 3>Come on.

0:39:26.181 --> 0:39:28.382
<v Speaker 2>We need everybody for the social videos, and some people

0:39:28.382 --> 0:39:31.622
<v Speaker 2>are like, I think I've got a headache or like,

0:39:32.022 --> 0:39:34.021
<v Speaker 2>and then other people come and they're like, oh my god.

0:39:34.542 --> 0:39:36.821
<v Speaker 2>I would also be really insecure about how many people

0:39:36.862 --> 0:39:37.382
<v Speaker 2>turned up from me.

0:39:37.462 --> 0:39:40.901
<v Speaker 3>It's incredibly vulnerable and there is no where to hide.

0:39:40.942 --> 0:39:41.181
<v Speaker 1>It is.

0:39:41.221 --> 0:39:43.062
<v Speaker 3>It is the epitome of my worst nightmare.

0:39:43.181 --> 0:39:46.582
<v Speaker 1>Like but that's why it's telling of personality. Because Aaron Pierre,

0:39:46.661 --> 0:39:49.422
<v Speaker 1>no one showed up, no one knew who Aaron Pierre

0:39:49.502 --> 0:39:51.861
<v Speaker 1>from The Fasta was, and he still bought his A

0:39:52.022 --> 0:39:54.462
<v Speaker 1>game and it's a fun game to play. A parlor

0:39:54.502 --> 0:39:56.582
<v Speaker 1>game in your life is to think about who in

0:39:56.622 --> 0:39:59.542
<v Speaker 1>your life would do a great spirit tunnel and who

0:39:59.781 --> 0:40:03.181
<v Speaker 1>just because I got to say, Maya, we're doing an

0:40:03.181 --> 0:40:05.301
<v Speaker 1>amazing spirit tunny annoying.

0:40:05.582 --> 0:40:08.701
<v Speaker 3>My Roman empire has been. There's a band called role

0:40:08.741 --> 0:40:12.221
<v Speaker 3>Model and they are performing this song you will have

0:40:12.261 --> 0:40:15.102
<v Speaker 3>heard it called Sally when the wine runs out live

0:40:15.542 --> 0:40:16.982
<v Speaker 3>and every time they do it, there's a bridge, there's

0:40:16.982 --> 0:40:19.142
<v Speaker 3>a really catchy bit and a really famous person gets on.

0:40:19.062 --> 0:40:21.301
<v Speaker 2>Stage and down seas again another great social place.

0:40:21.542 --> 0:40:24.781
<v Speaker 3>Yes, so you've got Kate Hudson, you've got Olivia Rodrigo,

0:40:24.902 --> 0:40:27.261
<v Speaker 3>You've got I think Renee Rap came out, But the

0:40:27.302 --> 0:40:29.542
<v Speaker 3>best one so far that I have watched on repeat,

0:40:29.582 --> 0:40:31.741
<v Speaker 3>and I think it's always when it's someone you don't

0:40:31.781 --> 0:40:36.102
<v Speaker 3>really expect to be amazing was Natalie Portman. She came out,

0:40:36.542 --> 0:40:41.301
<v Speaker 3>she was so confident, so uninhibited, had incredible rhythm, and

0:40:41.342 --> 0:40:43.462
<v Speaker 3>I was just like, what can I do in my life?

0:40:43.582 --> 0:40:46.902
<v Speaker 3>I'll climb any fucking cringe mountain to look like Natalie

0:40:46.942 --> 0:40:49.102
<v Speaker 3>Portman in my mid forties or whatever it is.

0:40:49.142 --> 0:40:50.942
<v Speaker 1>Do you think it was a black Swan training?

0:40:51.261 --> 0:40:54.622
<v Speaker 2>I was very rat there was something very she sold

0:40:54.622 --> 0:40:57.062
<v Speaker 2>her soul to the devil about that particular appearance because

0:40:57.102 --> 0:40:59.742
<v Speaker 2>she looked twenty and she was having the best time.

0:41:00.181 --> 0:41:01.622
<v Speaker 1>I'm wearing cutoff jenim Shwe.

0:41:01.822 --> 0:41:04.022
<v Speaker 3>It's like, you just can't learn it, and that's why

0:41:04.102 --> 0:41:05.502
<v Speaker 3>it's so revealing him a person?

0:41:05.661 --> 0:41:06.221
<v Speaker 1>Is it? You go?

0:41:06.422 --> 0:41:08.142
<v Speaker 3>It really says something about who you are.

0:41:08.221 --> 0:41:11.142
<v Speaker 2>We should share the little internet clips that we watch

0:41:11.181 --> 0:41:15.021
<v Speaker 2>when we're sad, because Is and I do this quite often.

0:41:15.502 --> 0:41:17.861
<v Speaker 2>Is Timothy Chalomaye on Saturday Night.

0:41:17.982 --> 0:41:18.542
<v Speaker 1>Ah.

0:41:18.582 --> 0:41:22.181
<v Speaker 2>He is exceptionally good, particularly the sketch she does with

0:41:22.221 --> 0:41:25.582
<v Speaker 2>Pete Davidson called Eat Skirt, which every time I see

0:41:25.622 --> 0:41:27.661
<v Speaker 2>it I have to love so hard. Share out that

0:41:27.862 --> 0:41:29.741
<v Speaker 2>is with the things that just lift your spirits when

0:41:29.741 --> 0:41:30.221
<v Speaker 2>you watch that.

0:41:30.221 --> 0:41:30.861
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I love it.

0:41:31.622 --> 0:41:34.502
<v Speaker 3>After the break, the actress who refuses to promote her

0:41:34.582 --> 0:41:37.502
<v Speaker 3>new TV series or pocket any money from it, we

0:41:37.582 --> 0:41:40.582
<v Speaker 3>unpack a scandal unfolding in real Time.

0:41:41.181 --> 0:41:44.942
<v Speaker 2>One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

0:41:44.942 --> 0:41:49.062
<v Speaker 2>and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

0:41:49.062 --> 0:41:50.782
<v Speaker 2>of the show notes to get us in your ears

0:41:51.062 --> 0:41:53.781
<v Speaker 2>five days a week. And a huge thank you to

0:41:53.982 --> 0:41:55.622
<v Speaker 2>all our current subscribers.

0:42:03.862 --> 0:42:06.821
<v Speaker 3>An actress named Natalie Dormer is refusing to promote her

0:42:06.902 --> 0:42:11.422
<v Speaker 3>latest TV series and has donated every last cent of

0:42:11.462 --> 0:42:15.302
<v Speaker 3>her salary to charity. This was not originally her plan.

0:42:15.462 --> 0:42:18.502
<v Speaker 3>If you don't recognize that name, you will probably know

0:42:18.582 --> 0:42:21.701
<v Speaker 3>her face. Natalie Drmer was in Game of Thrones, she

0:42:21.781 --> 0:42:24.142
<v Speaker 3>was in the Hunger Games franchise, who popped up in

0:42:24.221 --> 0:42:28.582
<v Speaker 3>Captain America. Anyway, this year, she's got this series coming

0:42:28.622 --> 0:42:31.702
<v Speaker 3>out called The Lady, where she plays Sarah Ferguson, Duchess

0:42:31.701 --> 0:42:34.902
<v Speaker 3>of York, and she says that after learning new information

0:42:35.142 --> 0:42:39.821
<v Speaker 3>about Sarah Ferguson's behavior after filming had all wrapped up,

0:42:40.462 --> 0:42:43.261
<v Speaker 3>she will not promote the project and will donate all

0:42:43.342 --> 0:42:47.301
<v Speaker 3>earnings to the National Association for People Abused in Childhood

0:42:47.582 --> 0:42:51.742
<v Speaker 3>and the Center of Expertise on Child's Sexual Abuse. Holly,

0:42:51.822 --> 0:42:56.342
<v Speaker 3>I've seen some headlines Sarah Ferguson, Jeffrey Epstein leaked email

0:42:56.542 --> 0:42:59.341
<v Speaker 3>something something, What is actually going on there?

0:43:00.102 --> 0:43:03.221
<v Speaker 2>So an email has come to light recently in reputable

0:43:03.221 --> 0:43:07.382
<v Speaker 2>British newspapers about an email that Sarah Ferguson sent to

0:43:07.462 --> 0:43:10.902
<v Speaker 2>Jeffrey Epstein all the way back in twenty eleven. Now

0:43:11.062 --> 0:43:14.222
<v Speaker 2>most people know that Prince Andrew has had a whole

0:43:14.261 --> 0:43:18.181
<v Speaker 2>Epstein related crisis and that the late Virginia just Frey

0:43:18.542 --> 0:43:20.942
<v Speaker 2>accused him of sexually assaulting her when she was a minor,

0:43:21.062 --> 0:43:24.902
<v Speaker 2>allegations that he denied, but he still reached a settlement

0:43:24.942 --> 0:43:27.342
<v Speaker 2>with her. It was sealed, so we don't know exactly

0:43:27.502 --> 0:43:29.701
<v Speaker 2>how much it was, but it's estimated to have been

0:43:30.022 --> 0:43:33.381
<v Speaker 2>somewhere between three and twelve million pounds. Right, But this

0:43:33.422 --> 0:43:36.301
<v Speaker 2>isn't about Andrew. This is about Fergie. What came to

0:43:36.422 --> 0:43:39.102
<v Speaker 2>light via these emails, although this part of the story

0:43:39.181 --> 0:43:42.301
<v Speaker 2>was well known already, is that Fergie borrowed money from

0:43:42.342 --> 0:43:44.982
<v Speaker 2>Epstein in twenty ten. And I want you to all

0:43:45.062 --> 0:43:49.102
<v Speaker 2>remember that everybody knew by twenty ten that Epstein had

0:43:49.142 --> 0:43:53.582
<v Speaker 2>already been found guilty of sexual charges around a minor

0:43:53.661 --> 0:43:56.062
<v Speaker 2>and had actually served time for it, So that was

0:43:56.062 --> 0:43:58.022
<v Speaker 2>already on the table. It's not that people didn't know

0:43:58.062 --> 0:44:00.942
<v Speaker 2>that right. In twenty ten, she borrows fifteen thousand pounds

0:44:00.942 --> 0:44:03.422
<v Speaker 2>from him. That might seem like a small ish amount

0:44:03.422 --> 0:44:06.062
<v Speaker 2>of money, but it was allegedly to pay off one

0:44:06.102 --> 0:44:09.422
<v Speaker 2>of her personal assistants. And then she gave an inn

0:44:09.822 --> 0:44:13.302
<v Speaker 2>where she publicly distanced herself from Epstein. So she said

0:44:13.382 --> 0:44:15.742
<v Speaker 2>in that interview where she was brought up, you borrowed

0:44:15.741 --> 0:44:17.741
<v Speaker 2>money from him? Is he one of your friends? She

0:44:18.181 --> 0:44:23.462
<v Speaker 2>condemned pedophilia's sexual abuse, basically distance herself from Epstein, But

0:44:23.622 --> 0:44:26.542
<v Speaker 2>the email which is the new part, was sent to

0:44:26.582 --> 0:44:30.341
<v Speaker 2>him after that interview, basically apologizing for writing it. In

0:44:30.342 --> 0:44:34.421
<v Speaker 2>the email, she writes, I know you feel hillaciously let

0:44:34.462 --> 0:44:37.502
<v Speaker 2>down by me, and I must humbly apologize to you

0:44:37.582 --> 0:44:40.661
<v Speaker 2>and your heart for that. She called him a steadfast,

0:44:40.741 --> 0:44:43.861
<v Speaker 2>generous and supreme friend, and she assured him that she

0:44:43.982 --> 0:44:48.022
<v Speaker 2>never used the P word her words about him. Now

0:44:48.062 --> 0:44:50.661
<v Speaker 2>you might be wondering why a duchess would need to

0:44:50.701 --> 0:44:53.741
<v Speaker 2>borrow fifteen thousand pounds from a dodgy billionaire.

0:44:54.221 --> 0:44:55.782
<v Speaker 1>Couldn't you borrow it from the queen?

0:44:55.942 --> 0:44:56.262
<v Speaker 5>Well?

0:44:56.422 --> 0:44:58.981
<v Speaker 2>You know, I wonder, because so this is what's really

0:44:58.982 --> 0:45:01.462
<v Speaker 2>interesting about all this. I don't want to disappear down

0:45:01.502 --> 0:45:05.102
<v Speaker 2>a tunnel. But we imagine that all the royals are loaded,

0:45:05.142 --> 0:45:09.461
<v Speaker 2>and obviously compared to ordinary people, they are, but at

0:45:10.062 --> 0:45:13.502
<v Speaker 2>unless you're one of the very top tiers. Most royals

0:45:13.502 --> 0:45:16.261
<v Speaker 2>are asset rich but cash poor. So they might get

0:45:16.302 --> 0:45:19.582
<v Speaker 2>given here's an estate to live in. It's got a

0:45:19.622 --> 0:45:23.622
<v Speaker 2>crumbling beautiful estate house on it. It's got staff who

0:45:23.661 --> 0:45:25.221
<v Speaker 2>need to be paid, it's got grounds that need to

0:45:25.261 --> 0:45:27.741
<v Speaker 2>be maintained, it's got blah blah blah blah blah. But

0:45:27.822 --> 0:45:32.342
<v Speaker 2>they're not allowed to earn money in traditional ways very often,

0:45:32.422 --> 0:45:34.661
<v Speaker 2>and this is changing a bit over time as the

0:45:34.781 --> 0:45:37.062
<v Speaker 2>rules have changed about who's on the public person who isn't.

0:45:37.102 --> 0:45:39.661
<v Speaker 2>But broadly speaking, you're a bit restricted in what you

0:45:39.701 --> 0:45:42.462
<v Speaker 2>can do for money, but your lifestyle might be quite expensive.

0:45:43.022 --> 0:45:46.142
<v Speaker 2>And Prince Harry wrote about this in Spare and a

0:45:46.181 --> 0:45:48.661
<v Speaker 2>lot of royles have sort of muched about it. Is

0:45:48.701 --> 0:45:51.661
<v Speaker 2>that they perceive to be living the life of the

0:45:51.661 --> 0:45:55.701
<v Speaker 2>extremely privileged, and they are, but their actual resources are

0:45:55.741 --> 0:45:58.502
<v Speaker 2>not that deep, which is why your Prince Andrews of

0:45:58.542 --> 0:46:00.302
<v Speaker 2>the world, well, I mean one of the reasons why

0:46:00.542 --> 0:46:03.542
<v Speaker 2>the Prince Andrews of the World was traveling around the

0:46:03.542 --> 0:46:06.781
<v Speaker 2>world staying in Epstein's house in Florida, staying in Epstein's

0:46:06.822 --> 0:46:09.262
<v Speaker 2>house in New York, and various other high profile business

0:46:09.261 --> 0:46:13.062
<v Speaker 2>people who want to associate themselves with royalty. It's funny

0:46:13.062 --> 0:46:14.821
<v Speaker 2>because when I've said this before, but I was just

0:46:14.862 --> 0:46:16.582
<v Speaker 2>sick and I was watching the Gilded Age and all

0:46:16.622 --> 0:46:18.821
<v Speaker 2>the way back then. So in New York in the

0:46:18.822 --> 0:46:21.462
<v Speaker 2>eighteen hundreds, they were kind of buying dukes, you know,

0:46:21.542 --> 0:46:25.182
<v Speaker 2>to marry into their families because the Americans had money

0:46:25.502 --> 0:46:27.942
<v Speaker 2>and the Brits had status. And it's kind of like,

0:46:28.382 --> 0:46:30.422
<v Speaker 2>why do you think, oh, I need to get back

0:46:30.462 --> 0:46:31.221
<v Speaker 2>to Fergie, don't I?

0:46:31.422 --> 0:46:34.342
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, why do you think that she's now been cast

0:46:34.582 --> 0:46:36.182
<v Speaker 3>as such a villain in this story.

0:46:36.261 --> 0:46:38.861
<v Speaker 2>So that email leaked a couple of weeks ago, and

0:46:38.942 --> 0:46:41.781
<v Speaker 2>since that happened, a lot of charities in the UK

0:46:41.902 --> 0:46:44.661
<v Speaker 2>have dumped Fergie, so they, you know, even though she's

0:46:44.701 --> 0:46:48.782
<v Speaker 2>not an official royal anymore, she still is the patron

0:46:48.822 --> 0:46:51.542
<v Speaker 2>of a breast cancer charity, and she still lives quite

0:46:51.582 --> 0:46:53.862
<v Speaker 2>a public life, and she's still in the royal family,

0:46:53.902 --> 0:46:56.702
<v Speaker 2>to the point that at Princess Michael of Kent's funeral

0:46:56.741 --> 0:46:59.062
<v Speaker 2>recently she was there. She was quite prominent at it

0:46:59.102 --> 0:47:02.941
<v Speaker 2>with Andrew. But since that email leaked that showed that

0:47:03.062 --> 0:47:07.021
<v Speaker 2>she apologized to Epstein sort of cozied up to him

0:47:07.181 --> 0:47:09.861
<v Speaker 2>after the fact, it's really trashed.

0:47:09.542 --> 0:47:12.622
<v Speaker 3>Share commented or apologized about that. Has there been any

0:47:12.622 --> 0:47:13.222
<v Speaker 3>comment from.

0:47:13.102 --> 0:47:16.422
<v Speaker 2>Fergie not Since then, she hasn't made any official comment.

0:47:16.942 --> 0:47:19.502
<v Speaker 2>But I think that what's happened is that people are

0:47:19.542 --> 0:47:23.222
<v Speaker 2>conflating rightly, So I guess people are conflating the fact

0:47:23.701 --> 0:47:26.622
<v Speaker 2>that you know, you pretended. And this is also what

0:47:26.862 --> 0:47:31.062
<v Speaker 2>Prince Andrew got sort of skewered for in that famous interview.

0:47:31.342 --> 0:47:34.502
<v Speaker 2>You pretended that as soon as you knew that Epstein

0:47:34.622 --> 0:47:37.822
<v Speaker 2>was who he was, you backed off. But then, funnily enough,

0:47:37.902 --> 0:47:40.022
<v Speaker 2>a year later, here's a photo of you at his

0:47:40.102 --> 0:47:41.941
<v Speaker 2>house in New York, and Prince Andrew was like, oh,

0:47:41.982 --> 0:47:43.301
<v Speaker 2>I just want to tell him that we couldn't be

0:47:43.342 --> 0:47:45.901
<v Speaker 2>friends anymore, and like this is a similar thing.

0:47:46.062 --> 0:47:50.102
<v Speaker 1>That's so interesting. You just wonder what Epstein's dynamic was

0:47:50.142 --> 0:47:53.342
<v Speaker 1>with these people, because the British ambassador to the US

0:47:53.661 --> 0:47:56.062
<v Speaker 1>was just fired a couple of weeks ago for doing

0:47:56.102 --> 0:48:00.022
<v Speaker 1>exactly the same thing as Fergie, publicly disavowing his relationship

0:48:00.102 --> 0:48:02.781
<v Speaker 1>with Epstein. His friendship with him and then writing him

0:48:02.781 --> 0:48:05.661
<v Speaker 1>an email saying, don't worry about everything I said in public.

0:48:05.741 --> 0:48:08.381
<v Speaker 1>I actually think you're the best friend ever. Yes, So

0:48:08.422 --> 0:48:09.062
<v Speaker 1>to go back.

0:48:08.902 --> 0:48:11.901
<v Speaker 3>To Natalie do What I find interesting, right, is that

0:48:12.022 --> 0:48:14.062
<v Speaker 3>in five minutes there will be a film about Jeffrey

0:48:14.062 --> 0:48:19.462
<v Speaker 3>Epstein with let's go Sean pin Choice play Jeffrey Epstein.

0:48:19.701 --> 0:48:21.781
<v Speaker 3>He'll be paid a bunch of money and he will

0:48:21.822 --> 0:48:26.022
<v Speaker 3>be on every show promoting his movie about Epstein. Probably

0:48:26.062 --> 0:48:28.381
<v Speaker 3>won't donate that money to charity We've got. I mean,

0:48:28.502 --> 0:48:31.502
<v Speaker 3>Taika Waititi has played Hitler, like you know, people play

0:48:31.902 --> 0:48:36.662
<v Speaker 3>bad in adverted commas characters all the time. For Dormer,

0:48:36.822 --> 0:48:39.342
<v Speaker 3>do you think it was that she played a character

0:48:39.382 --> 0:48:42.142
<v Speaker 3>who she thought she knew and understood, and now she

0:48:42.181 --> 0:48:47.022
<v Speaker 3>feels like she hasn't presented an accurate portrayal because she

0:48:47.102 --> 0:48:48.502
<v Speaker 3>didn't have this piece of information.

0:48:48.701 --> 0:48:51.542
<v Speaker 2>Look, it's hard to know without seeing the project, right,

0:48:51.862 --> 0:48:54.261
<v Speaker 2>but let's imagine, because that Fergie is one of those

0:48:54.261 --> 0:48:56.301
<v Speaker 2>people who lives in the British imagination as a bit

0:48:56.342 --> 0:48:59.542
<v Speaker 2>of a joke. Right, So, even though she was also

0:48:59.622 --> 0:49:05.142
<v Speaker 2>busted by an undercover reporter soliciting access to the Prince

0:49:05.181 --> 0:49:07.781
<v Speaker 2>for money for fifty pounds, like, oh, I'm sure I

0:49:07.781 --> 0:49:09.741
<v Speaker 2>could get your business proposition in front of them, like

0:49:10.102 --> 0:49:12.821
<v Speaker 2>she has been done for a few dodgy things over time.

0:49:12.902 --> 0:49:14.342
<v Speaker 1>Has she ever considered a job?

0:49:15.502 --> 0:49:17.741
<v Speaker 2>It is a very good question. One of the things

0:49:17.741 --> 0:49:19.462
<v Speaker 2>she said in the Epstein email is that because she

0:49:19.502 --> 0:49:21.661
<v Speaker 2>writes children's books, right, And she said, that's why I

0:49:21.701 --> 0:49:25.422
<v Speaker 2>had to say those things, like she's very dodgy anyway,

0:49:25.862 --> 0:49:29.341
<v Speaker 2>But she even with that knowledge, the space she occupies

0:49:29.342 --> 0:49:31.942
<v Speaker 2>in the British sort of culture is a bit of

0:49:31.982 --> 0:49:36.342
<v Speaker 2>a joke and interesting. Who knows how Natalie Dormer plays

0:49:36.382 --> 0:49:40.861
<v Speaker 2>her because maybe it's quite light And what I wonder

0:49:40.902 --> 0:49:42.821
<v Speaker 2>about that because I think you're so right, Jesse, like

0:49:42.942 --> 0:49:44.701
<v Speaker 2>the Sean Penn will just throw him under the bus.

0:49:44.741 --> 0:49:46.942
<v Speaker 2>Sean Penn is playing Jeffrey Epstein in the arm in

0:49:47.022 --> 0:49:51.342
<v Speaker 2>it is taking the millions. But you know that when

0:49:51.342 --> 0:49:54.822
<v Speaker 2>that project comes out, every press interview that Dorma does,

0:49:54.862 --> 0:49:58.022
<v Speaker 2>she would be asked about this now because the Epstein

0:49:58.062 --> 0:50:00.582
<v Speaker 2>email has changed the way people see Fergie. I think,

0:50:00.622 --> 0:50:02.661
<v Speaker 2>at least for now it might blow over. But she

0:50:02.741 --> 0:50:05.221
<v Speaker 2>would be saying, how do you feel about portraying somebody

0:50:05.261 --> 0:50:08.342
<v Speaker 2>who was you know, an apologist for a pedophile or whatever.

0:50:08.422 --> 0:50:10.781
<v Speaker 2>And does Natalie do normally want to put herself through

0:50:10.781 --> 0:50:13.902
<v Speaker 2>that this show? I think that actually it's quite a

0:50:13.902 --> 0:50:16.902
<v Speaker 2>small part in it. It's not about Sarah Ferguson, but

0:50:16.942 --> 0:50:19.622
<v Speaker 2>Sarah Ferguson appears in the story do you want to

0:50:19.661 --> 0:50:20.622
<v Speaker 2>put yourself through that?

0:50:20.982 --> 0:50:23.502
<v Speaker 1>You know? Yeah, she thought she'd be like answering questions

0:50:23.542 --> 0:50:26.982
<v Speaker 1>about the toe sucking that fergue in the eighties, not

0:50:27.102 --> 0:50:28.502
<v Speaker 1>about pedophilia exactly.

0:50:28.582 --> 0:50:30.822
<v Speaker 2>And I think one of the things that it brings

0:50:30.862 --> 0:50:34.582
<v Speaker 2>up that's interesting to me is that we've always touch tutted,

0:50:34.622 --> 0:50:37.942
<v Speaker 2>and rightly so about how much public money royals get.

0:50:37.982 --> 0:50:40.062
<v Speaker 2>But one of the things about them not having an

0:50:40.142 --> 0:50:42.582
<v Speaker 2>income stream and not being allowed to earn money, which

0:50:42.661 --> 0:50:44.422
<v Speaker 2>is what Prince Harry has complained about a lot. One

0:50:44.422 --> 0:50:46.102
<v Speaker 2>of the reasons why he and Megan wanted to leave

0:50:46.902 --> 0:50:50.221
<v Speaker 2>is it does actually open them up to being quite corruptible.

0:50:50.622 --> 0:50:52.542
<v Speaker 2>And Andrew isn't the only royal who that's been the

0:50:52.542 --> 0:50:54.462
<v Speaker 2>case for and so it kind of makes you think

0:50:54.822 --> 0:50:57.582
<v Speaker 2>we ask all the time, why doesn't King Charles cast

0:50:57.661 --> 0:51:00.821
<v Speaker 2>Andrew like properly out like publicly humiliate him, kick him

0:51:00.822 --> 0:51:03.741
<v Speaker 2>out of the family and Fergie, and some of the

0:51:03.902 --> 0:51:06.941
<v Speaker 2>speculation I've seen around this reporting has been that they

0:51:07.022 --> 0:51:10.582
<v Speaker 2>might be more detrimental outside the tenth and inside the tent,

0:51:10.622 --> 0:51:14.102
<v Speaker 2>as in they'll just start talking they know like harsh yep,

0:51:14.181 --> 0:51:16.542
<v Speaker 2>they know too, like exactly like Harry, he's you know,

0:51:16.781 --> 0:51:18.822
<v Speaker 2>from outside the tent. He can say all these things.

0:51:19.221 --> 0:51:20.942
<v Speaker 2>They know a lot of things, they can reveal a

0:51:20.942 --> 0:51:24.142
<v Speaker 2>lot of things, and so that actually what the Lion

0:51:24.261 --> 0:51:25.821
<v Speaker 2>King Charles is trying to walk is like.

0:51:26.181 --> 0:51:26.982
<v Speaker 3>Keep them onside.

0:51:27.022 --> 0:51:29.982
<v Speaker 2>I don't approve of my brother and his wife, but

0:51:30.902 --> 0:51:33.462
<v Speaker 2>they're not completely kicking them out because they might be

0:51:33.542 --> 0:51:38.221
<v Speaker 2>more trouble outside. Out Louder is a massive thank you

0:51:38.382 --> 0:51:41.462
<v Speaker 2>for being with us today as always, and to our

0:51:41.542 --> 0:51:44.821
<v Speaker 2>fabulous team for putting the show together. Don't forget you

0:51:44.822 --> 0:51:46.741
<v Speaker 2>can watch us on YouTube and that we'll be back

0:51:46.741 --> 0:51:47.981
<v Speaker 2>in your ears tomorrow.

0:51:47.942 --> 0:51:50.261
<v Speaker 3>And follow us on Instagram at Mama out Loud because

0:51:50.261 --> 0:51:52.182
<v Speaker 3>we are going to share all those videos that we

0:51:52.181 --> 0:51:53.381
<v Speaker 3>were talking about.

0:51:53.062 --> 0:51:55.502
<v Speaker 1>And don't forget to listen to Parenting out Loud, which

0:51:55.582 --> 0:51:58.741
<v Speaker 1>drops every week on a Saturday. Last week, we talked

0:51:58.781 --> 0:52:03.462
<v Speaker 1>about Rihanna and Asap Rocky and their love junk and

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