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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 1: So I've got some big news. The winner of the

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Speaker 1: Fat Bear competition in Alaska has been announced and it

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Speaker 1: is number thirty two, Chunk. And I love this for

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Speaker 1: a couple of reasons. The first is that Chunk has

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Speaker 1: been in this contest every year since it's begun eleven

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Speaker 1: years ago, and he was runner up the last two years,

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Speaker 1: but now this is his time.

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Speaker 2: This Boad's well for Leonardo DiCaprio at the Oscars Nation. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it does always there, but he never wins, just like

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Speaker 2: Chunk's a win.

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Speaker 1: And I have to say that I also specially love

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Speaker 1: his name because my partner is trying to make the

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Speaker 1: category of man chunky boss happen. Chunky bosses. Think Vince Vaughn, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: think Jason Segual, Yes, chunky bosses, and so I think

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Speaker 1: that in fact, this means that chunky bosses are now in.

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Speaker 3: I will also say about Chunk, I have read a

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Speaker 3: single detail about our French and that is that he

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Speaker 3: has a broken jaw, and that to me signals he's

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Speaker 3: commitment to eating salmon like I think he ate too

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Speaker 3: much salmon broke his jaw. But he won in the

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Speaker 3: end and his body on the line.

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Speaker 2: He could still eat the salmon with a broken jaw.

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Speaker 2: That is quite commitment. That is quite a commitment.

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Speaker 1: Congratulations to our chunky boss Chunk.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Momma Mia out loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the first of October.

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Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wainwright and I am trying to restrain any

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Speaker 2: panic that it is Wednesday, the first of October.

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Speaker 3: I am Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Amelia Lester.

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Speaker 2: And on our show today you might have heard, I know,

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Speaker 2: maybe you've heard. I'm just a little bit of news.

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Speaker 3: Holly just has been shrieking, running around, frazzled hot.

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Speaker 2: I have been very very upset by this, very destabilized

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Speaker 2: that's the word. Yeah, he stabilized that Australian royal uncoupling. Well,

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Speaker 2: welcome to today's show, where we're going to decode the

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Speaker 2: gossip and noise around the Nicole Keith divorceview.

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Speaker 3: Plus it's time for us all to hold hands and

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Speaker 3: climb Cringe Mountain together we discuss why this viral theory

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Speaker 3: could change your life.

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Speaker 1: And I went to Sephora this morning and waited until

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Speaker 1: the door's opened to get in.

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Speaker 3: I feel like you're going through something.

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Speaker 1: I'm going through something. Women over forty are doing our

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Speaker 1: makeup all wrong, and I'm here to tell you what

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Speaker 1: we need to do differently.

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Speaker 2: But first of all, I'm not going to say in

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Speaker 2: case you missed it, because you didn't miss it. Now,

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Speaker 2: nobody missed this.

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Speaker 3: Except you for a few hours yesterday morning.

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Speaker 2: It's true. In fact, we recorded a whole emergency meeting

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Speaker 2: for subscribers about this yesterday, So if you need to

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Speaker 2: go back to the beginning of this story, go and

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Speaker 2: listen to that right But since then, there has been

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Speaker 2: so much coverage, some of it reputable, some of it

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Speaker 2: just very gossipy. And what we're going to do is

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Speaker 2: do a bit of decode for you here about what

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Speaker 2: seems to be true, what seems to be nonsense, what

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Speaker 2: seems to be pure speculation. And we do need to,

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Speaker 2: as we did in the episode yesterday, we need to

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Speaker 2: lay the table to say we're aware that this is

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Speaker 2: a non of our business, be some people's real lives.

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Speaker 2: That is serious stuff. But I think that it is

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Speaker 2: unquestionable that this is the biggest celebrity story in the

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Speaker 2: world at the moment, and that we all have something

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Speaker 2: of a connection to the Nicole and Keith situation, and

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Speaker 2: it is unfolding in quite actually an unconventional way.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So, yesterday the separation was reported. There has been no

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Speaker 2: official confirmation from either party. And when we're recorded yesterday,

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Speaker 2: we said probably in the next twenty four hours they

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Speaker 2: will release or one or the other of them, or

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Speaker 2: usually a joint statement will be released which will say

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Speaker 2: something along the lines of what do they always say,

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Speaker 2: Amelia those statements.

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Speaker 1: Please respect our privacy at this time as we focus

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Speaker 1: on our family and create beautiful separate journeys which are

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Speaker 1: also together.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and we respect each other and love each other

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Speaker 2: and so on, and so.

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Speaker 1: We'll always be friends.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's usually that kind of nothing to see here

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Speaker 2: statement now that very noticeably has not happened in the

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Speaker 2: last two days.

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Speaker 1: So there hasn't been any statement.

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Speaker 2: There has been no direct as we're recording now. Obviously

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Speaker 2: that could.

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Speaker 1: Change, but that is very unusual.

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Speaker 2: It is very unusual because even if and we speculated

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Speaker 2: about this yesterday, is that perhaps there was a leak

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Speaker 2: they were preparing to announce this, but there had been

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Speaker 2: a leak and so they were scrambling. But given the

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Speaker 2: fact that today it has been officially reported that Nicole

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Speaker 2: Kidman has filed for divorce, so it's definitely happening.

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Speaker 1: Did she file in Tennessee?

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Speaker 2: She filed in Tennessee, which is where they live, right

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Speaker 2: their primary residence. So court documents obtained by page six

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Speaker 2: reveal that the breakup was due to a reconcilable differences.

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Speaker 2: We all that means too and its what does that? Well,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's a pretty standard reason. Yeah, but it

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Speaker 2: just means it broke down, it could not be saved.

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Speaker 2: And listed their separation date the September the thirtieth, which

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Speaker 2: is okay, yeah, right now, right now, Kidman requested to

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Speaker 2: be the primary residential parent of her and Urban's daughters

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Speaker 2: and to have custody of them for three hundred and

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Speaker 2: six days.

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Speaker 3: And out of the year fourteen and seventeen daughters.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's not joint customer.

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Speaker 2: That's primary custody to her. None of the rest of

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Speaker 2: this is authorized what we're about to say. So the

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Speaker 2: court documents are legal documents, so we know it's definitely happening,

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Speaker 2: but there's been no official statement, as we've said, but

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Speaker 2: what there has been is quite a lot of leaking,

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Speaker 2: and the leaking seems to be coming mostly from Nicole's side,

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Speaker 2: because one of the first things that we heard yesterday

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Speaker 2: is that she had been trying hard to keep the

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Speaker 2: family together. A family member who didn't want to be

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Speaker 2: named told the Sydney Morning Herald because obviously Nicholl's family

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Speaker 2: are Australian, that Kidman is heartbroken and that the actor

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Speaker 2: had been attempting to keep the family together for several

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Speaker 2: months for the sake of the kids.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was so interesting that clearly her approved

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Speaker 1: source leaked to the Herald, because that's a broadsheet newspaper.

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Speaker 1: It's not a guy brag. So they wanted us to

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Speaker 1: take that at face value.

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Speaker 2: They did, absolutely, And to explain about sources, right, we

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Speaker 2: often roll our eyes about celebrity sources sources say, but

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Speaker 2: also in these kinds of instances, we know that sources

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Speaker 2: close to the celebrity are a legitimate way that you

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Speaker 2: get this kind of news out without making it seem

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Speaker 2: as if it was you.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're right, So.

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Speaker 2: I mean, just ask Prince Harry. On one hand, you

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Speaker 2: can say, oh, tabloids are full of moder named sources.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, he'll say, the sources that the

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Speaker 2: Palace were leaking about me all the time. So you

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Speaker 2: know that sources can be reached.

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Speaker 3: And I suppose as well that not all sources are

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Speaker 3: created equal. So you know, the other gossip, I suppose

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Speaker 3: that has been coming out. Every possibility, every rumor that

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Speaker 3: could surface about this relationship has surfaced over the last

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Speaker 3: twenty four hours. So it was always going to be

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Speaker 3: discussions about Keith. Urban has had a history with addiction,

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Speaker 3: so that becomes a question. So it was inevitable that

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Speaker 3: there would be speculation about infidelity. Hollywood, we make of

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Speaker 3: those rooms.

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Speaker 2: Some of the signs that you know something feels a

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Speaker 2: little off is that the reputable sources like page six

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Speaker 2: and people are now saying so as we're recording this,

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Speaker 2: people are saying the split is turning dramatic. Nicole's hurt

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Speaker 2: and feels betrayed. Now we've heard that part. This next

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Speaker 2: part is the part that's a bit new, which is

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Speaker 2: that she wanted to save their marriage, but it seems

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Speaker 2: he's already moved on. I think that he's already moved on.

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Speaker 2: Is the bit that blends a little bit of weight

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Speaker 2: to the rumors of infidelity. Clearly, what is coming out

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Speaker 2: here is that the side of the story that we

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Speaker 2: are seeing is that this was not Nicole. This is

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Speaker 2: to do with Keith. She was spending the summer with

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Speaker 2: her daughters. He's been on tour and something has happened.

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Speaker 2: That is the vibe of what is being put out there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the speculation is coming out because

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Speaker 1: there's a bit of a vacuum because there was no

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Speaker 1: official statement proclaiming to still be friends. Because we've seen

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Speaker 1: leaking to reputable sources like The Herald and like Page six,

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Speaker 1: which is where sometimes supporting came from, and People magazine.

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Speaker 1: So that's why we're seeing so much speculation. But I

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Speaker 1: think that the big takeaway is that Nicole's camp wants

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Speaker 1: us to understand that from her perspective, she did everything

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Speaker 1: she could. She didn't want this to happen, and her

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Speaker 1: filing doesn't negate that. It means that she tried everything

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Speaker 1: and she just couldn't make it work. That's what her

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Speaker 1: camp wants us to understand from this.

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Speaker 3: The other piece of material we're getting from sources is

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Speaker 3: regarding intimacy. I'm saying, the word intimacy come up a lot,

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Speaker 3: and it's about how there had been a breakdown in

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Speaker 3: an intimacy because Keith Urban had been traveling a lot,

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Speaker 3: she had been traveling a lot, and basically they never

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Speaker 3: saw each other. And it was the nail in the

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Speaker 3: coffin when Keith Urban basically moved out, is what it

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Speaker 3: sounds like, and that that happened at the beginning of

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Speaker 3: the US summer. So that's sort of the other piece

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Speaker 3: of the puzzle, which you were saying yesterday, Holly on

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Speaker 3: the subscriber episode. Is this going to become a narrative

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Speaker 3: about how hard Nicole works?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm interested because obviously all the things we just

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Speaker 2: said that the sources saying, particularly the stuff about Keith

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Speaker 2: and whether or not there's somebody else involved that is

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Speaker 2: scorellous gossip at this point definitely is as you've very

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Speaker 2: clearly stated, Amelia. What doesn't seem to be beyond question

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Speaker 2: is that this was his call and that Nicole has

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Speaker 2: been blindsided, in verted commas by this news. But it's

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Speaker 2: interesting because now all the takes start coming out, and

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Speaker 2: right now that's very much where the story sits that

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Speaker 2: what did Keith do right? But the story will probably

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Speaker 2: turn a few more times in the next couple of weeks.

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Speaker 2: And what we're seeing too are some angles about Nicole's

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Speaker 2: ambition in inverted commas in terms of lots and lots

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Speaker 2: of work, lots and lots of quite. I've seen some

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Speaker 2: not so veiled references to the fact that she keeps

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Speaker 2: picking these sexy parts that she's choosing to get naked

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Speaker 2: a lot. I've seen some mean reporting about oh, he

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Speaker 2: was so obsessed with his youth and beauty regime and

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Speaker 2: he couldn't Basically, the undercurrent is like that two vain

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Speaker 2: people couldn't survive in this marriage. All of that feel

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Speaker 2: mean spirited. But what do we think about why we

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Speaker 2: project so much and need to dig into all of

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Speaker 2: this so much?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the projecting, because there's been as Amelia was saying

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Speaker 3: about the vacuum, I think that's a really good point

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Speaker 3: because then there's just a whole lot of think pieces

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Speaker 3: or heart pieces that are sort of saying There was

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Speaker 3: one I was reading that was saying, oh, well, we

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Speaker 3: were lied to, like because that was the thing is

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Speaker 3: that he called her baby girl. And they were always

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Speaker 3: so publicly affectionate. People are now looking at their relationship

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Speaker 3: through the lens of being quite performative, which to me

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Speaker 3: is just such an absurd claim. When a couple has

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Speaker 3: been together for nineteen years, things can just change. It

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean they were lying three years ago when they

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Speaker 3: were hooking up on the red carpet, like go for it.

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Speaker 3: That relationship has just evolved, like so many do well.

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Speaker 1: I also think that there's a parallel here. There's inescapable

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Speaker 1: parallels with Nicole's divorce from Tom Cruise. The idea that

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Speaker 1: she was blindsided, and again that's fairly well sourced reporting

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Speaker 1: that she felt sort of very surprised by the turn

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Speaker 1: the marriage took, and then also the idea that it

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Speaker 1: was very much even though Nicole was this instigator of

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Speaker 1: the divorce, it was something where she felt unable to

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Speaker 1: do anything else about it. We also need to keep

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Speaker 1: in mind that both of them were going through a

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Speaker 1: lot of personal change over the last year. Nicole has

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Speaker 1: written very beautifully in the Australian press about how hard

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Speaker 1: it was to lose her mother in October of last

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Speaker 1: year and how that really occasioned a big rethink for

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Speaker 1: her of what her life was about and what she

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Speaker 1: wanted to do with her life. Keith earlier this year,

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Speaker 1: just before his tour began, fired a number of his

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Speaker 1: band members, and people didn't really understand why that was.

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Speaker 1: He'd been playing with them for a long time. He

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Speaker 1: spoke at the time about how he was sort of

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Speaker 1: reorganizing his life and rethinking how he wanted to do things.

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Speaker 1: And then their children are growing up and one of

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Speaker 1: their daughters has become a model and is getting some

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Speaker 1: fame in her own right, So there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: change there separate from the marriage.

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Speaker 2: They're entering a new era. And we talked about this

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Speaker 2: a little bit yesterday. Is that a midlife marriage collapse

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Speaker 2: is very common, you know, and very often it's instigated

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Speaker 2: by the woman, to be honest. Is that we talked

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Speaker 2: also about how after losing a parent often that destabilization

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Speaker 2: can cause you to make big changes in your life

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Speaker 2: when you look around and go, this is this it now?

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Speaker 2: And I agree with your point, Jesse, that I think

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Speaker 2: the narrative of like, oh, they were faking it all

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Speaker 2: this time is nonsense because you can't fake it for

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Speaker 2: twenty years. And although some people were always sniffy about

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Speaker 2: the PDA, and to be fair, Tom and Nicole were

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Speaker 2: also known for their PDA. Like there are some very famous,

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Speaker 2: very gorgeous red carpet shots of them from you know,

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Speaker 2: the nineties and noughties where they were all over each other.

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Speaker 2: Like I think that is maybe who she is, and

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Speaker 2: that's okay, right, Like I don't think that means that

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Speaker 2: anybody's acting there. But over twenty years, so much in

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Speaker 2: your life shifts, and I think there are some celebrity

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Speaker 2: relationships that, because they've been there for such a long time,

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Speaker 2: feel they reflect something about either your own or your

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Speaker 2: own life or chapters in your life. Then that's why

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Speaker 2: you're so obsessed with it.

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Speaker 1: And yet those parallels are striking because remember how with

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Speaker 1: Nicole and Tom, there was that same line that Nicole

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Speaker 1: was too ambitious, Nicole was working too hard, Nicole took

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Speaker 1: her clothes off in a London production of the play

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Speaker 1: The Blue Room, and she did, and there was also

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Speaker 1: eyes White Shut, which of course they weren't together, but

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Speaker 1: there was also this narrative that Nicole was putting herself

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Speaker 1: out there too much.

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Speaker 3: I think what we can probably conclude at this point

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Speaker 3: is that the split is acrimonious like that.

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Speaker 2: This is quite because if you can't get your lawyers

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Speaker 2: together in a room and your pr people together in

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Speaker 2: a room to settle on a statement that you can

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Speaker 2: put out to put out a few fires.

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Speaker 3: And if you're hearing that one party feels betrayed, it

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Speaker 3: is going to be I just keep thinking, that is

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Speaker 3: a lot of time with lawyers that they've got ahead

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Speaker 3: of them.

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Speaker 2: If you do want to go back to the beginning

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Speaker 2: of this story, if it is obsessing you, I know

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Speaker 2: it isn't obsessing everybody, but it's definitely obsessing. My group chats,

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Speaker 2: my GenEx group chats are going off with this story,

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Speaker 2: different levels of devastation about it. You can go and

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Speaker 2: listen to our subset that we were talking about. There

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Speaker 2: is a link in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: Go do that in case you missed it. If you

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Speaker 1: are a woman over forty, you are doing your makeup wrong.

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Speaker 1: This is the confronting truth that I learned from a

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Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram personality called Erica Taylor. She is an

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Speaker 1: American makeup artist who has over ten million views on

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Speaker 1: YouTube for a video called common Mistakes Which Age Your Face? Now.

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Speaker 1: The premise of This is that she puts one hand

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Speaker 1: over half of her face and she shows you her

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Speaker 1: makeup done according to the way millennials have been taught

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Speaker 1: for time immemorial to do their makeup, and then she

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Speaker 1: reveals the second half of her face. She takes her

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Speaker 1: hand away, and you suddenly see how much younger she

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Speaker 1: looks when she follows her own tips on how to

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Speaker 1: do your own makeup.

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Speaker 3: And importantly, it's the same products. It's not even that

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Speaker 3: she's using different products, it's just the great page is different.

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Speaker 1: Yes, she's using the same products. Let's have a listen,

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Speaker 1: because she's really interesting the way she talks here she

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Speaker 1: is on eyeshadow.

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Speaker 4: If we're in our forties and up even later thirties,

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Speaker 4: and you've been doing the same makeup that you learned

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Speaker 4: in high school or in your twenties for the last

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Speaker 4: twenty to thirty years, forty years, possibly this is for

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Speaker 4: you what we did with our shadow and what we

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Speaker 4: should do with her eyeshadow.

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Speaker 1: Let's go. And what I found so confronting about this

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Speaker 1: and why I ran to Saphora this morning is because

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Speaker 1: I thought I had a pretty good handle on how

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Speaker 1: to do my makeup, because I am a woman in

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Speaker 1: my early forties who read women's magazines religiously all through

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Speaker 1: my teens. I know to put the little bit of

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Speaker 1: white eye shadow underneath my brows for a bit of pop.

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Speaker 1: I know how to do the lining of my lips.

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Speaker 1: This is what I thought. No, I was wrong. I

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Speaker 1: was wrong about all of it. Would you like to

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Speaker 1: know the specific ways in which I've been doing my

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Speaker 1: makeup wrong? Number one, you press your eyeliner. You do

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Speaker 1: not pull your eyeliner, so you don't think about that.

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Speaker 1: First second, pull your.

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Speaker 2: Eye out to do this.

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Speaker 1: You don't touch it because you're distorting the eye shape.

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Speaker 1: Then you just need to let your eye be and

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Speaker 1: then you need to press in your eyeliner like it's

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Speaker 1: a little stamp.

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Speaker 3: I've seen makeup hardist do that.

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Speaker 1: I don't.

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Speaker 3: I can't do it. It's definitely pul I definitely that's

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Speaker 3: what we.

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Speaker 1: Were taught to do. Secondly, you need to extend your

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Speaker 1: eyeshadow up to your eyebrows.

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Speaker 2: I'm not doing that. That's that's crazy, Like.

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Speaker 1: That's what she says. That's what she says. Your blush

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Speaker 1: it needs to go even higher than you think, even high.

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Speaker 1: I don't think my blush.

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Speaker 2: Could go high because I've been I've been hearing this

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Speaker 2: advice about like we used to think, smile, put it

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Speaker 2: on the apple of your cheek. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I've

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Speaker 2: been hearing this advice for a while now on Mama

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Speaker 2: Mea whenever we do, you know, make up advice for

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Speaker 2: over forties, over fifties, it goes not and they're like

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Speaker 2: high high. My blush at this point is kind of

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Speaker 2: somewhere here, somewhere. I look like it's on your scalp exactly.

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Speaker 2: And then finally, don't extend your lipliner to the edges

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Speaker 2: of your lips because that will make them look bad

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Speaker 2: or something. You just have to like stop halfway interesting

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Speaker 2: because that's the opposite for your eyes. They say that

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Speaker 2: your eyes.

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Speaker 3: I was saying that if you stop kind of bluntly,

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Speaker 3: because if you don't know how to do a wing,

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Speaker 3: let's be honest, most of us are not good at

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Speaker 3: a wing. Then we stop, and apparently that makes our

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Speaker 3: eyes look smaller. So we've got to just kind of

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Speaker 3: do a little flick to have them look up.

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Speaker 1: A little flick, which felt crazy to me, but then

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Speaker 1: I tried it today and I got about two hours

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Speaker 1: sleep last night, so I think I look better than

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Speaker 1: I would have looked without the flick you look.

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Speaker 2: But question at this point, if I started coming in

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Speaker 2: with a Wingland highlighter, would you think Holly has finally

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Speaker 2: lost it? It's just lost. The highlighter is not gonna

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Speaker 2: save your sister.

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Speaker 1: It does feel crazy. I think this is all in

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Speaker 1: service of an idea that I read about, which was

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Speaker 1: that babies and children have extremely wide faces. They're very wide, yes,

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Speaker 1: and then as your age, it sort of just turns long.

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Speaker 1: And so all of these tips are in service of

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Speaker 1: making your face look as wide as possible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and apparently the big thing I remember Maya writing

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Speaker 3: about this that the thing that ages you is uneven

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Speaker 3: skin tone. So what you have to try and do

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Speaker 3: is get completely even skin tone. It's like one of

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Speaker 3: the first things, that's what things.

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Speaker 1: Oh sure, that seems easy to do underneath the harsh

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Speaker 1: Australian sun. Thanks me for that very practical tip.

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Speaker 2: No powder only creams. Yes, So if I haven't put

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Speaker 2: a powder on my face for a long time, but

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Speaker 2: if I am now extending.

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Speaker 1: My eyes, yes, my brow yes, with your fingers, she says.

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Speaker 2: Dark brown like up to here with the This is

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Speaker 2: going to be very exciting for you all next week.

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Speaker 1: The idea is, you know how we were taught to

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Speaker 1: put a sort of gentle fawn color on our lids

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Speaker 1: to make it pop. When you get older, you don't

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Speaker 1: want it to pop because it looks swollen. You've got

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Speaker 1: to use a medium colored eyes shadow on it.

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Speaker 2: I feel victimized.

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Speaker 3: In a moment the importance of cringe and why gen

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Speaker 3: Z in particular have a phobia of it. Friends, it's

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Speaker 3: time to put your hiking boots on and climb up

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Speaker 3: cringe Mountain. Let me explain. The phrase cringe Mountain comes

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Speaker 3: from an Australian creator consultant named Erica Mallett who coined

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Speaker 3: the term in twenty twenty three. And she was part

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Speaker 3: of a hip hop duo and she was also like

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Speaker 3: a radio host on Triple J. All these career pursuits

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Speaker 3: were very public, and when she was on Triple J,

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Speaker 3: she would get messages through the text line calling her cringe.

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Speaker 3: That was the number one piece of feedback. She got

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Speaker 3: your cringe. An article in The New York Times by

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Speaker 3: Gilander Mizzizzi says this idea of stumbling publicly enduring judgment

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Speaker 3: and finding resilience in the process isn't new. What's new

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Speaker 3: is the language. The phrase cringe is distinct of the

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Speaker 3: Internet age, born of comments sections and meme culture to

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Speaker 3: describe acute awkwardness or social embarrassment. Now, rather than get

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Speaker 3: hurt by the cringe comments, Mallet decided to embrace the word.

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Speaker 3: She decided it meant that she was taking risks, that

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Speaker 3: the audience could hear, that she had not yet arrived

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Speaker 3: at a place where she was clear and confident, and

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Speaker 3: she acknowledged that witnessing that makes people very uncomfortable. Here's

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Speaker 3: a little bit of how Erica explains her concept of

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Speaker 3: Cringe Mountain.

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Speaker 5: People who hate on you for climbing Crench Mountain are

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Speaker 5: never the ones who have climbed Cringe Mountain themselves. They

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Speaker 5: are never hating from the.

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Speaker 1: Land of cool.

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Speaker 5: They are always hating from base Camp. So this is

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Speaker 5: Crnch Mountain. This is you climbing Cringe Mountain. Everyone has

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Speaker 5: to climb Crunch Mountain to get to the land of cool.

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Speaker 5: This is base Clamp where everyone starts, and this is

436
00:20:49,141 --> 00:20:52,061
Speaker 5: where the haters live. Nobody who has ever been through

437
00:20:52,101 --> 00:20:55,821
Speaker 5: the climb will hate on someone who is still climbing. Ever,

438
00:20:56,061 --> 00:20:58,101
Speaker 5: because they know what it's like to climb crench Mountain,

439
00:20:58,141 --> 00:20:59,221
Speaker 5: they would never laugh at you.

440
00:20:59,262 --> 00:21:00,141
Speaker 1: They know it's hard.

441
00:21:00,661 --> 00:21:03,741
Speaker 3: Now, this is proven very hard for gen Z in

442
00:21:03,782 --> 00:21:06,901
Speaker 3: particular to do because they live in a culture of

443
00:21:06,982 --> 00:21:11,421
Speaker 3: total digital surveillance, and that has made them a lot

444
00:21:11,462 --> 00:21:14,942
Speaker 3: of research into this hesitant to try new things because

445
00:21:14,982 --> 00:21:18,302
Speaker 3: they don't want to be seen as being cringe. Cringe culture,

446
00:21:18,381 --> 00:21:21,661
Speaker 3: some creative say, is holding these young people back. And

447
00:21:21,742 --> 00:21:24,341
Speaker 3: as Mallett says, you can't reach the land of cool

448
00:21:24,502 --> 00:21:28,661
Speaker 3: until you have climbed your cringe mountain, Amelia, Cringe was

449
00:21:28,702 --> 00:21:30,941
Speaker 3: definitely a thing for me growing up. It was a

450
00:21:31,022 --> 00:21:34,222
Speaker 3: term we threw around. But do you think that there

451
00:21:34,302 --> 00:21:38,581
Speaker 3: is a greater fear now, given that the Internet doesn't

452
00:21:38,581 --> 00:21:41,941
Speaker 3: exist in your home study it exists in your pocket

453
00:21:41,942 --> 00:21:46,821
Speaker 3: all the time, that we're more afraid of looking embarrassing online.

454
00:21:46,982 --> 00:21:49,941
Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, I just did a segment on a podcast

455
00:21:50,022 --> 00:21:53,181
Speaker 1: about how I'm now trying out winged eyeliners. So I

456
00:21:53,182 --> 00:21:56,982
Speaker 1: think I speak from a position of real authority from

457
00:21:57,061 --> 00:22:00,142
Speaker 1: the very apex of Cringe Mountain, and the view from

458
00:22:00,222 --> 00:22:03,022
Speaker 1: up here is good, honestly, Like I'm at the top,

459
00:22:03,581 --> 00:22:05,782
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with this idea because I think it almost

460
00:22:05,861 --> 00:22:08,622
Speaker 1: gives us permission to try new things. It almost gives

461
00:22:08,661 --> 00:22:11,661
Speaker 1: us permission to lean into that embarrassment that we feel

462
00:22:11,702 --> 00:22:14,101
Speaker 1: when we're trying something outside of our comfort zone. And

463
00:22:14,141 --> 00:22:15,662
Speaker 1: the first thing that I thought of when I came

464
00:22:15,702 --> 00:22:19,581
Speaker 1: across this concept was whether it's applicable to book writing.

465
00:22:19,702 --> 00:22:22,141
Speaker 1: This is an achievement that I have not fulfilled in

466
00:22:22,182 --> 00:22:24,501
Speaker 1: my life. I would love to one day. Did you

467
00:22:24,542 --> 00:22:27,061
Speaker 1: feel you were climbing cringe Mountain when you go first

468
00:22:27,101 --> 00:22:27,782
Speaker 1: wrote your books?

469
00:22:27,901 --> 00:22:32,181
Speaker 2: Holly, one hundred percent, like one hundred percent. So much

470
00:22:32,381 --> 00:22:36,022
Speaker 2: of writing is trying to get over your own cringe

471
00:22:36,182 --> 00:22:39,021
Speaker 2: because I don't know who said it, Jesse you might remember.

472
00:22:39,022 --> 00:22:41,302
Speaker 2: But there's some really good writing advice, which is, you

473
00:22:41,341 --> 00:22:44,022
Speaker 2: know your ambition for what you're writing isn't yet matched

474
00:22:44,061 --> 00:22:46,821
Speaker 2: by your skills, particularly when you start like You've got

475
00:22:46,861 --> 00:22:50,182
Speaker 2: some talent, obviously, but in your mind, the thing you're

476
00:22:50,222 --> 00:22:52,061
Speaker 2: going to write is this amazing.

477
00:22:52,381 --> 00:22:54,181
Speaker 3: You know what good writing looks like, and you know

478
00:22:54,182 --> 00:22:54,941
Speaker 3: that what you've done.

479
00:22:54,821 --> 00:22:57,581
Speaker 2: Is yeah, and you're cringing through it, but it's also

480
00:22:57,581 --> 00:22:59,462
Speaker 2: probably far worse in your mind than it is. So

481
00:22:59,502 --> 00:23:01,861
Speaker 2: it's somewhere in the middle, but the cringe of it

482
00:23:01,942 --> 00:23:03,661
Speaker 2: and the how dare you? And the who do you

483
00:23:03,702 --> 00:23:05,581
Speaker 2: think you are? And people are going to laugh at

484
00:23:05,581 --> 00:23:07,941
Speaker 2: that and all of those things. Yes, And then the

485
00:23:07,982 --> 00:23:11,542
Speaker 2: other thing that is enormously cringe about writing a book

486
00:23:11,621 --> 00:23:16,101
Speaker 2: is promoting a book because self promotion. And I think

487
00:23:16,141 --> 00:23:19,341
Speaker 2: it's interesting because you're so right, Jesse, that generations that

488
00:23:19,381 --> 00:23:22,622
Speaker 2: have grown up with internet surveillance are very sensitive to cringe.

489
00:23:23,141 --> 00:23:26,542
Speaker 2: But gen X is very sensitive to self promotional cringe

490
00:23:26,581 --> 00:23:29,381
Speaker 2: because we grew up being told that selling out is

491
00:23:29,422 --> 00:23:32,661
Speaker 2: the worst thing you can do, Whereas if you've grown

492
00:23:32,742 --> 00:23:36,022
Speaker 2: up with Instagram and people basically selling things to you

493
00:23:36,302 --> 00:23:39,581
Speaker 2: all the time, everywhere you look, in every format, you

494
00:23:39,702 --> 00:23:42,341
Speaker 2: kind of take a certain level of self promotion and

495
00:23:42,381 --> 00:23:46,142
Speaker 2: selling on board. But gen X's we were told that's

496
00:23:46,262 --> 00:23:49,302
Speaker 2: very uncool, and then suddenly you have to be out

497
00:23:49,302 --> 00:23:52,661
Speaker 2: there all the time self promoting, and the cringe is real.

498
00:23:53,101 --> 00:23:57,101
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think with any creative process there is

499
00:23:57,222 --> 00:24:01,461
Speaker 3: certainly an element of cringe. And I always think that

500
00:24:01,661 --> 00:24:05,341
Speaker 3: the most ruthless reviews are written by people who have

501
00:24:05,381 --> 00:24:07,621
Speaker 3: never written the book they want to write, Like I

502
00:24:07,661 --> 00:24:10,942
Speaker 3: think Goodreads is full of peace, people tearing apart books

503
00:24:11,542 --> 00:24:14,262
Speaker 3: with a sense that they could do a better job,

504
00:24:14,821 --> 00:24:16,902
Speaker 3: and they might be able to do a better job,

505
00:24:16,901 --> 00:24:19,581
Speaker 3: but they've never written the book. Like cringe is real

506
00:24:19,942 --> 00:24:25,101
Speaker 3: in that there's this vicarious empathetic embarrassment that we see

507
00:24:25,141 --> 00:24:28,941
Speaker 3: for people, even someone doing something embarrassing online or making

508
00:24:28,982 --> 00:24:31,302
Speaker 3: a mistake or whatever. You go, oh, and that's a

509
00:24:31,381 --> 00:24:36,861
Speaker 3: deeply psychological, just true emotion. But at the same time,

510
00:24:36,901 --> 00:24:41,022
Speaker 3: I think there is a sense even online of who

511
00:24:41,061 --> 00:24:43,502
Speaker 3: do you think you are? With people who are either

512
00:24:43,542 --> 00:24:48,021
Speaker 3: publishing anything, their ambition is worn on their sleeve. Like

513
00:24:48,901 --> 00:24:52,422
Speaker 3: in some ways gen Z are able to throw off

514
00:24:52,462 --> 00:24:55,142
Speaker 3: those shackles because the content creator is something that never

515
00:24:55,141 --> 00:24:58,421
Speaker 3: would have existed among say boomers. But then on the

516
00:24:58,422 --> 00:25:02,021
Speaker 3: other hand, I was reading that there is this fear

517
00:25:02,302 --> 00:25:04,861
Speaker 3: among I think it was Tyler, the creator was talking

518
00:25:04,901 --> 00:25:08,421
Speaker 3: about how young people are scared of dancing now, like

519
00:25:08,462 --> 00:25:10,462
Speaker 3: they'll go out and they he was in some situation

520
00:25:10,542 --> 00:25:12,381
Speaker 3: they weren't dancing and he was like, why aren't you dancing?

521
00:25:12,381 --> 00:25:14,061
Speaker 3: And they were like, I'm scared someone's going to film me.

522
00:25:14,861 --> 00:25:17,061
Speaker 2: Like, but this is so real because I think about

523
00:25:17,061 --> 00:25:19,502
Speaker 2: this for my daughter's generation, well, but not only, but

524
00:25:20,222 --> 00:25:24,261
Speaker 2: they've literally grown up knowing that, and maybe millennials did too.

525
00:25:24,341 --> 00:25:28,302
Speaker 2: You tell me, but that whatever you're doing, even in

526
00:25:28,341 --> 00:25:30,782
Speaker 2: your friend group, even in your school, even in your life,

527
00:25:30,782 --> 00:25:33,181
Speaker 2: somebody somewhere is probably bitching about it on the internet,

528
00:25:33,182 --> 00:25:35,741
Speaker 2: as in I don't mean publicly shaming like we do

529
00:25:35,821 --> 00:25:38,022
Speaker 2: with a celebrity, but in negative chat, in a group

530
00:25:38,141 --> 00:25:39,821
Speaker 2: chat that is a side chat to the one that

531
00:25:39,861 --> 00:25:42,262
Speaker 2: you have with your friends in the dms that you're

532
00:25:42,302 --> 00:25:44,821
Speaker 2: not invited to, that someone will be going did you

533
00:25:44,861 --> 00:25:46,982
Speaker 2: see that picture that so and so posted? Who does

534
00:25:47,022 --> 00:25:49,581
Speaker 2: she think she is? Or did you see that thing

535
00:25:49,581 --> 00:25:51,542
Speaker 2: that they tried to do on the football field or

536
00:25:51,581 --> 00:25:54,061
Speaker 2: on the stage at the school musical or whatever, And

537
00:25:54,101 --> 00:25:56,741
Speaker 2: who do they think they are? That is a very

538
00:25:56,742 --> 00:25:59,542
Speaker 2: different experience than the one that I had growing up,

539
00:25:59,581 --> 00:26:02,141
Speaker 2: for example, where of course people bitched about people. I'm

540
00:26:02,141 --> 00:26:04,502
Speaker 2: not pretending that's a new invention, but there were so

541
00:26:04,702 --> 00:26:06,982
Speaker 2: fewer forums and public places to do it. So if

542
00:26:07,022 --> 00:26:11,581
Speaker 2: you literally grow up knowing that everything you're doing is

543
00:26:11,661 --> 00:26:14,222
Speaker 2: being there's a commentary to it somewhere, and it will

544
00:26:14,262 --> 00:26:19,141
Speaker 2: probably be mostly negative. It takes a very particular type

545
00:26:19,182 --> 00:26:22,782
Speaker 2: of strengths to push through and climb cringe Mountain.

546
00:26:22,861 --> 00:26:27,261
Speaker 1: You've just made me realize that cringe is basically doing

547
00:26:27,381 --> 00:26:31,461
Speaker 1: something in the view of the Internet, which these days

548
00:26:31,502 --> 00:26:35,462
Speaker 1: means everything. It's different from embarrassment. When Jesse and I

549
00:26:35,782 --> 00:26:39,582
Speaker 1: were younger and we were growing up as millennials who

550
00:26:39,621 --> 00:26:43,501
Speaker 1: maybe didn't even have smartphones yet, embarrassment was when you

551
00:26:43,542 --> 00:26:47,622
Speaker 1: did something and you felt a little bit embarrassed. Cringe

552
00:26:47,661 --> 00:26:50,741
Speaker 1: is when someone's watching you and they cringe. It's a

553
00:26:50,782 --> 00:26:51,422
Speaker 1: different thing.

554
00:26:51,942 --> 00:26:54,381
Speaker 3: Yeah, And as you say, Amelia, it's like, if you

555
00:26:54,422 --> 00:26:57,702
Speaker 3: want to launch a new business central to that strategy,

556
00:26:57,742 --> 00:27:01,061
Speaker 3: we'll probably be making an Instagram page, and then whether

557
00:27:01,101 --> 00:27:04,422
Speaker 3: that page grows or not is in public view. And

558
00:27:04,861 --> 00:27:06,542
Speaker 3: maybe you get a new job. Do you post it

559
00:27:06,581 --> 00:27:08,742
Speaker 3: on LinkedIn? Do you then do a few posts about

560
00:27:08,742 --> 00:27:12,061
Speaker 3: your successes there and image of you at a conference?

561
00:27:12,742 --> 00:27:13,702
Speaker 2: And what's the line?

562
00:27:13,782 --> 00:27:13,861
Speaker 1: Like?

563
00:27:14,101 --> 00:27:17,341
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, I see these people over here sharing their

564
00:27:17,381 --> 00:27:19,341
Speaker 2: successes in a very proud way and it seems to

565
00:27:19,341 --> 00:27:21,262
Speaker 2: be working for them. Can I do that or does that?

566
00:27:21,581 --> 00:27:21,661
Speaker 1: Like?

567
00:27:21,702 --> 00:27:24,142
Speaker 2: What's the line? And sometimes you're gonna.

568
00:27:23,782 --> 00:27:28,061
Speaker 3: Do you think that success hinges on a high tolerance

569
00:27:28,061 --> 00:27:32,101
Speaker 3: for cringe? Do you think that people who climb the mountain.

570
00:27:32,702 --> 00:27:35,341
Speaker 3: So this woman who does the videos, she found an

571
00:27:35,381 --> 00:27:37,581
Speaker 3: old clip of post Malone, and post Malone is, you know,

572
00:27:37,661 --> 00:27:40,741
Speaker 3: one of the most successful recording artists currently and this

573
00:27:40,821 --> 00:27:43,422
Speaker 3: first film clip could only be described as cringe, which

574
00:27:43,462 --> 00:27:45,421
Speaker 3: I'm sure if you went back to early Taylor Swift

575
00:27:45,502 --> 00:27:46,101
Speaker 3: or if you went.

576
00:27:45,982 --> 00:27:48,182
Speaker 2: Back Taylor Swift is a very good example.

577
00:27:48,341 --> 00:27:50,501
Speaker 3: Yes, and you just have to greet your teeth and

578
00:27:50,542 --> 00:27:53,422
Speaker 3: go call me cringe. I'm on my own journey. Do

579
00:27:53,462 --> 00:27:56,382
Speaker 3: you think that the more tolerance you have for cringe,

580
00:27:56,861 --> 00:27:58,341
Speaker 3: the higher you'll climb.

581
00:27:58,542 --> 00:28:01,061
Speaker 1: Yeah, Tailor Swift's a great example. Another example is Robin.

582
00:28:01,262 --> 00:28:03,262
Speaker 1: Think about the fact that in the first part of

583
00:28:03,262 --> 00:28:07,182
Speaker 1: her career, Robin was really seen as a somewhat embarrassing

584
00:28:07,462 --> 00:28:10,502
Speaker 1: pop artist, and then she comes out with a single

585
00:28:10,542 --> 00:28:12,702
Speaker 1: that's probably one of the greatest songs of all time,

586
00:28:12,982 --> 00:28:17,302
Speaker 1: Dancing on my Own, and she's not cringe anymore. But

587
00:28:17,542 --> 00:28:20,621
Speaker 1: both Taylor and Robin did many years in the cringe trenches.

588
00:28:21,022 --> 00:28:23,702
Speaker 2: But there are plenty of people who still would call

589
00:28:23,742 --> 00:28:25,581
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift cringe right Like, I'm not one of them.

590
00:28:25,621 --> 00:28:27,341
Speaker 2: We're not bashing her. Let's face, She's going to own

591
00:28:27,341 --> 00:28:29,142
Speaker 2: the next few days. Out louders. As we know she's

592
00:28:29,182 --> 00:28:32,102
Speaker 2: got an album dropping on Friday, you'll be hearing about it.

593
00:28:33,141 --> 00:28:35,462
Speaker 2: But there are people who I watched one of her

594
00:28:35,742 --> 00:28:38,542
Speaker 2: videos this week. It was like for kmart or something,

595
00:28:38,622 --> 00:28:41,261
Speaker 2: and she was directing a version of her self target.

596
00:28:41,582 --> 00:28:44,062
Speaker 2: She was directing a version of herself in this video,

597
00:28:44,102 --> 00:28:46,102
Speaker 2: and one Taylor was dressed as the showgirl and was

598
00:28:46,102 --> 00:28:48,342
Speaker 2: a bit wobbly on her feet and like looking wrong,

599
00:28:48,382 --> 00:28:50,582
Speaker 2: and the other Taylor was the director. Now there was

600
00:28:50,661 --> 00:28:53,461
Speaker 2: something a little bit cringe about that video, right, But

601
00:28:53,542 --> 00:28:57,582
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift owns the universe, So who cares if there

602
00:28:57,582 --> 00:29:00,622
Speaker 2: are people cringing about her? And cringe is to do

603
00:29:00,702 --> 00:29:03,222
Speaker 2: with cool. Cool people don't like to ever be seen

604
00:29:03,262 --> 00:29:06,622
Speaker 2: to try anything, and at some point you have to

605
00:29:06,782 --> 00:29:10,502
Speaker 2: try to succeed anything. And it sounds like such a

606
00:29:10,702 --> 00:29:14,302
Speaker 2: very cliched little mantra, but I think about it with

607
00:29:14,422 --> 00:29:17,302
Speaker 2: my daughter, who not to turn this into a parenting conversation,

608
00:29:17,382 --> 00:29:20,661
Speaker 2: but she loves football, she loves NFL. Sometimes on the

609
00:29:20,661 --> 00:29:23,302
Speaker 2: field she'll make a really embarrassing mistake, like try and

610
00:29:23,342 --> 00:29:25,302
Speaker 2: run and bounce the ball and it gets out of

611
00:29:25,342 --> 00:29:28,782
Speaker 2: her hands. And it's more she's mortified because she knows

612
00:29:28,822 --> 00:29:31,102
Speaker 2: her friends have seen it. She knows she tried to

613
00:29:31,182 --> 00:29:34,102
Speaker 2: do something cool and she fucked it. Yeah, and the

614
00:29:34,222 --> 00:29:35,981
Speaker 2: cringe is all part of it. And she'll come off

615
00:29:36,022 --> 00:29:38,222
Speaker 2: and she's like, I shouldn't have even I'm not good

616
00:29:38,222 --> 00:29:39,862
Speaker 2: at bouncing, I shouldn't have tried to bounce.

617
00:29:39,902 --> 00:29:42,461
Speaker 3: And it's like, so it's a cringe about really the

618
00:29:42,502 --> 00:29:44,542
Speaker 3: fear of trying. And if you've got a whole generation

619
00:29:44,622 --> 00:29:47,662
Speaker 3: who is internalized the fear of trying.

620
00:29:47,462 --> 00:29:53,741
Speaker 2: Being caught trying try in private is okay. But as

621
00:29:53,782 --> 00:29:56,221
Speaker 2: you just said about cringe being trying something in the

622
00:29:56,262 --> 00:29:58,981
Speaker 2: view of the internet, that's so true.

623
00:29:59,902 --> 00:30:03,862
Speaker 3: Eventually you've kind of got to be seen with most

624
00:30:03,902 --> 00:30:07,502
Speaker 3: of what you do, and failure is obviously in terms

625
00:30:07,542 --> 00:30:09,502
Speaker 3: of growth, mindset and getting to where you want to be.

626
00:30:09,702 --> 00:30:13,422
Speaker 3: Failure is one thing, but cringe is a whole other.

627
00:30:13,661 --> 00:30:17,782
Speaker 3: There's shame and embarrassment just tied up with that that

628
00:30:17,902 --> 00:30:18,702
Speaker 3: no one wants to feel.

629
00:30:18,782 --> 00:30:20,742
Speaker 2: And it's why this analogy is great, right, because it's

630
00:30:20,782 --> 00:30:22,941
Speaker 2: the idea you could now go, you know, I'm pitching

631
00:30:22,942 --> 00:30:24,982
Speaker 2: my tent on cringe Mountain for six months, you know

632
00:30:25,022 --> 00:30:27,582
Speaker 2: what I mean, Like, yeah, I've got to cringe all out.

633
00:30:27,622 --> 00:30:29,582
Speaker 2: I know I'm going to make some mistakes in however

634
00:30:29,661 --> 00:30:31,462
Speaker 2: I talk about this thing or do this thing.

635
00:30:32,142 --> 00:30:33,221
Speaker 3: Cringe isn't going to kill me.

636
00:30:33,422 --> 00:30:36,622
Speaker 1: It's inherent to any creative endeavor. In twenty twenty five,

637
00:30:36,702 --> 00:30:40,302
Speaker 1: I think about an acquaintance of mine who has recently

638
00:30:40,382 --> 00:30:45,221
Speaker 1: become somewhat incongruously a musician. She was always a musician,

639
00:30:45,302 --> 00:30:48,021
Speaker 1: but she's now trying to make a niche in music

640
00:30:48,262 --> 00:30:52,461
Speaker 1: for the dom and sub community, and so she just

641
00:30:52,502 --> 00:30:54,542
Speaker 1: sort of like came out as a member of that

642
00:30:54,582 --> 00:30:57,102
Speaker 1: community who was also a musician who writes music about

643
00:30:57,142 --> 00:31:01,902
Speaker 1: it on Instagram exactly. And she I've watched her career

644
00:31:02,102 --> 00:31:05,221
Speaker 1: kind of develop and really take on a lot of

645
00:31:05,262 --> 00:31:08,221
Speaker 1: momentum in the last year or two on Instagram, and

646
00:31:08,262 --> 00:31:11,782
Speaker 1: I think about how much cringe she must have felt

647
00:31:12,022 --> 00:31:14,742
Speaker 1: coming out to everyone in her life about the fact

648
00:31:14,742 --> 00:31:16,661
Speaker 1: that she was in this community and that she wanted

649
00:31:16,661 --> 00:31:19,302
Speaker 1: to write music about this community. But if she wants

650
00:31:19,302 --> 00:31:21,902
Speaker 1: to succeed as a musician these days, you just got

651
00:31:21,942 --> 00:31:22,941
Speaker 1: to climb cringe mountain.

652
00:31:23,022 --> 00:31:28,982
Speaker 3: Question, Actually, is it only worth climbing cringe mountain if

653
00:31:28,982 --> 00:31:30,822
Speaker 3: you do land in the land of cool? Because I

654
00:31:30,822 --> 00:31:33,222
Speaker 3: think I've had moments of climbing Cringe Mountain I'm thinking

655
00:31:33,302 --> 00:31:36,022
Speaker 3: of I have an acquaintance who was doing something on

656
00:31:36,062 --> 00:31:38,902
Speaker 3: the internet, very specific thing, and all of us were going,

657
00:31:38,982 --> 00:31:40,142
Speaker 3: what the hell is she doing?

658
00:31:40,422 --> 00:31:42,742
Speaker 1: Like this is mother in law?

659
00:31:43,661 --> 00:31:46,981
Speaker 3: Yes it was me, as she was doing something that

660
00:31:47,102 --> 00:31:51,582
Speaker 3: none of us understood. This niche has blown up to

661
00:31:51,822 --> 00:31:54,462
Speaker 3: such an extent that this person is the most successful

662
00:31:54,462 --> 00:31:56,942
Speaker 3: person any of us know. Most people will have heard

663
00:31:56,982 --> 00:32:00,502
Speaker 3: of them. They have this incredible profile. It's amazing. And

664
00:32:00,542 --> 00:32:02,262
Speaker 3: now all of us look at each other and go,

665
00:32:03,022 --> 00:32:03,661
Speaker 3: we were wrong.

666
00:32:03,742 --> 00:32:04,982
Speaker 2: So she's in the land of cool.

667
00:32:05,022 --> 00:32:07,382
Speaker 3: She's absolutely in the land of cool. And we now

668
00:32:07,422 --> 00:32:10,422
Speaker 3: look retrospectively on cringe and go, we were cringe for cringing.

669
00:32:11,022 --> 00:32:14,942
Speaker 3: But if that person stayed at two hundred views, if

670
00:32:14,942 --> 00:32:17,741
Speaker 3: there is no growth like that does happen for a

671
00:32:17,742 --> 00:32:20,661
Speaker 3: lot of people, And then us a board mission.

672
00:32:20,342 --> 00:32:22,741
Speaker 2: The narratives that you'll try, and you'll try, and then

673
00:32:22,782 --> 00:32:24,542
Speaker 2: one day you will see like it just isn't true

674
00:32:24,582 --> 00:32:27,702
Speaker 2: for everything. Very many of us never achieve our dreams,

675
00:32:27,742 --> 00:32:30,261
Speaker 2: as they say, so I think that's fine. But if

676
00:32:30,262 --> 00:32:32,062
Speaker 2: your friend had stayed on two hundred views, how long

677
00:32:32,102 --> 00:32:34,422
Speaker 2: would she have slogged up Cringe Mountain four before she'd

678
00:32:34,462 --> 00:32:37,542
Speaker 2: chosen a different path to really talture this analogy. Yeah,

679
00:32:37,622 --> 00:32:40,022
Speaker 2: I was on Saturday night. I went to see Ben Lee, right,

680
00:32:40,302 --> 00:32:44,862
Speaker 2: iconic Australian musician, and he was playing through an iconic

681
00:32:44,902 --> 00:32:47,182
Speaker 2: album of his that's twenty five years old now, right,

682
00:32:47,422 --> 00:32:49,102
Speaker 2: And one of the songs on the album is We're

683
00:32:49,102 --> 00:32:52,622
Speaker 2: all in this together all yea, And he before he

684
00:32:52,742 --> 00:32:54,542
Speaker 2: sung that, because he sang those songs in order, and

685
00:32:54,542 --> 00:32:56,902
Speaker 2: it gets towards the end before he sings that song,

686
00:32:56,942 --> 00:33:01,022
Speaker 2: he basically apologizes for it. He basically says, everybody thinks

687
00:33:01,062 --> 00:33:02,021
Speaker 2: this song is cringe.

688
00:33:02,622 --> 00:33:03,022
Speaker 1: It is.

689
00:33:03,302 --> 00:33:07,262
Speaker 2: He basically was like, it is cringe, but funnily enough,

690
00:33:07,661 --> 00:33:10,982
Speaker 2: Australia or the world seems to find this song again

691
00:33:11,102 --> 00:33:14,742
Speaker 2: at particular moments when they need it. But he basically

692
00:33:14,782 --> 00:33:19,542
Speaker 2: sort of said, I'm sorry that this is cheesy and

693
00:33:19,622 --> 00:33:21,182
Speaker 2: some of you find it embarrassing.

694
00:33:21,462 --> 00:33:23,662
Speaker 1: He sort of said sorry, not sorry. Yeah, he did,

695
00:33:23,742 --> 00:33:26,701
Speaker 1: And that brings me to I think my proposition to

696
00:33:26,782 --> 00:33:29,022
Speaker 1: the two of you about Cringe Mountain, which is this

697
00:33:29,062 --> 00:33:31,741
Speaker 1: is something that we've talked about how jen Z in

698
00:33:31,782 --> 00:33:34,701
Speaker 1: particular is struggling with the concept of Cringe Mountain. I

699
00:33:34,742 --> 00:33:36,782
Speaker 1: think as you get older, you realize that you can

700
00:33:36,862 --> 00:33:39,222
Speaker 1: just keep climbing the mountain and that you just surrender

701
00:33:39,302 --> 00:33:41,782
Speaker 1: to the cringe. It's not about the destination, it's about

702
00:33:41,822 --> 00:33:42,382
Speaker 1: the journey.

703
00:33:42,661 --> 00:33:46,662
Speaker 3: You feel less observed and you just say, I'm fed,

704
00:33:48,542 --> 00:33:51,102
Speaker 3: and you know what, no one cares about me, and

705
00:33:51,142 --> 00:33:53,262
Speaker 3: no one is looking at me as much as I

706
00:33:53,302 --> 00:33:53,741
Speaker 3: think they are.

707
00:33:54,262 --> 00:33:56,462
Speaker 1: I want to talk about something that I deeply love

708
00:33:56,661 --> 00:33:58,822
Speaker 1: and it's something that I do when I'm feeling sad.

709
00:33:59,502 --> 00:34:01,502
Speaker 1: That's what I do is I pull up my phone

710
00:34:01,622 --> 00:34:05,302
Speaker 1: and I start watching the Jennifer Hudson show Spirit Tunnels.

711
00:34:06,102 --> 00:34:07,582
Speaker 1: Let me tell you what the spirit tunnels are if

712
00:34:07,622 --> 00:34:10,022
Speaker 1: you don't know about them. So, Jennifer Hudson is an

713
00:34:10,022 --> 00:34:12,582
Speaker 1: Egot winner. She's won an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar,

714
00:34:12,622 --> 00:34:15,142
Speaker 1: and a Tony. She now has a talk show that

715
00:34:15,342 --> 00:34:20,301
Speaker 1: is pretty not particularly acclaimed or particularly widely viewed. But

716
00:34:20,542 --> 00:34:23,381
Speaker 1: the Spirit Tunnel, which is what guests do before they

717
00:34:23,422 --> 00:34:26,502
Speaker 1: come on the show, has in fact gone viral worldwide.

718
00:34:26,542 --> 00:34:29,102
Speaker 1: And what happens is the guests before they come on set,

719
00:34:29,142 --> 00:34:32,261
Speaker 1: they walk down a very normal corporate looking corridor which

720
00:34:32,302 --> 00:34:35,582
Speaker 1: is lined with the staff of Jennifer Hudson's show, and

721
00:34:35,622 --> 00:34:38,021
Speaker 1: the staff sing and they clap, drawing on the soul

722
00:34:38,062 --> 00:34:43,062
Speaker 1: train tradition, and the guests engaging in singing and dancing

723
00:34:43,062 --> 00:34:46,341
Speaker 1: and clapping, and really what happens is you watch their reactions,

724
00:34:46,382 --> 00:34:48,942
Speaker 1: and in their reactions, you learn everything about that person.

725
00:34:50,221 --> 00:34:54,142
Speaker 1: So there are two very best spirit tunnel performances, and

726
00:34:54,181 --> 00:34:57,542
Speaker 1: the first is from Aaron Pierre, who voiced Mafasa in

727
00:34:57,582 --> 00:35:01,781
Speaker 1: the Mafaser movie. This next spirit tunnel rock the Jinsennet.

728
00:35:02,661 --> 00:35:04,742
Speaker 4: I'm not even sure I need to set this clip

729
00:35:04,822 --> 00:35:06,861
Speaker 4: up at all. I'm gonna just let.

730
00:35:06,862 --> 00:35:16,542
Speaker 1: Y'all watch, Okay, So I know that this is in

731
00:35:16,582 --> 00:35:19,182
Speaker 1: a visual medium and you won't be able to fully

732
00:35:19,181 --> 00:35:21,861
Speaker 1: appreciate this until you watch it. But Aaron Pierre, who

733
00:35:21,902 --> 00:35:24,022
Speaker 1: no one had heard of before this spirit tunnel performance.

734
00:35:24,102 --> 00:35:26,261
Speaker 1: Let's be clear, he was not a famous actor, but

735
00:35:26,382 --> 00:35:31,661
Speaker 1: now he is famous because of how unbelievably smooth, appealing

736
00:35:31,982 --> 00:35:35,181
Speaker 1: attractive he is as he walks down this spirit time.

737
00:35:35,261 --> 00:35:37,341
Speaker 3: I'm going to share it on our Instagram story so

738
00:35:37,422 --> 00:35:38,301
Speaker 3: everyone can find it.

739
00:35:38,422 --> 00:35:42,062
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you are confused about spirits, Chunnles full Stop.

740
00:35:42,102 --> 00:35:44,782
Speaker 2: We shared yesterday the top five, So get your phone,

741
00:35:44,862 --> 00:35:47,022
Speaker 2: go to Mama Maha out loud Instagram and look at

742
00:35:47,022 --> 00:35:48,782
Speaker 2: those and you know exactly what we're talking about.

743
00:35:48,822 --> 00:35:52,102
Speaker 1: The second spirit tunnel that I have to mention because

744
00:35:52,102 --> 00:35:54,102
Speaker 1: I think about it, it's my Roman Empire. I think

745
00:35:54,142 --> 00:35:56,142
Speaker 1: about it a couple of times a week. It's Michelle

746
00:35:56,181 --> 00:35:59,622
Speaker 1: Obama who bought a certain confidence and an ease which

747
00:35:59,701 --> 00:36:02,661
Speaker 1: I just aspire to having in everyday life, not just

748
00:36:02,701 --> 00:36:12,022
Speaker 1: in spirit tunnels. Everybody that was her going uh oh.

749
00:36:12,102 --> 00:36:14,502
Speaker 1: That was sung to the tune of Stevie Wonders I Wish,

750
00:36:14,542 --> 00:36:17,421
Speaker 1: and it's just a delightful thirty seconds. There are other

751
00:36:17,462 --> 00:36:21,102
Speaker 1: great ones. Gwen Stefani Usher came in on rollerblades. Chelsea

752
00:36:21,181 --> 00:36:25,102
Speaker 1: Handler was an interesting one because she's obviously not comfortable dancing,

753
00:36:25,261 --> 00:36:28,422
Speaker 1: which maybe puts her a disadvantage in spirit tunnel terms.

754
00:36:28,462 --> 00:36:31,021
Speaker 1: But she was very endearingly awkward and she kept walking

755
00:36:31,022 --> 00:36:33,142
Speaker 1: down the tunnel saying I wish I could dance better,

756
00:36:33,181 --> 00:36:35,062
Speaker 1: and it kind of softened her image because I think

757
00:36:35,062 --> 00:36:36,662
Speaker 1: of her as someone who's quite brash.

758
00:36:36,781 --> 00:36:39,901
Speaker 2: I have a question, so I love your theory that

759
00:36:40,022 --> 00:36:43,502
Speaker 2: how you react to a spirit tunnel reveals who you are,

760
00:36:43,622 --> 00:36:45,982
Speaker 2: because it's kind of like when everybody sings happy Birthday

761
00:36:46,022 --> 00:36:47,102
Speaker 2: to you in public.

762
00:36:46,862 --> 00:36:48,221
Speaker 3: Or something exactly like that.

763
00:36:48,302 --> 00:36:51,741
Speaker 2: But how comfortable you are with that, and Australians and

764
00:36:51,822 --> 00:36:55,701
Speaker 2: English people like we were not not comfortable reveals a

765
00:36:55,701 --> 00:36:58,742
Speaker 2: lot about you. But also this has become, as you said,

766
00:36:58,781 --> 00:37:01,462
Speaker 2: like the Jennifer Hudson show, maybe successful, maybe not, but

767
00:37:01,622 --> 00:37:04,701
Speaker 2: just like James Cordon's carpool Karaoke or so like, this

768
00:37:04,741 --> 00:37:08,142
Speaker 2: has become the social play for that show. And so

769
00:37:08,302 --> 00:37:09,982
Speaker 2: now if I was ever in vite to go on

770
00:37:10,102 --> 00:37:12,502
Speaker 2: Jennifer Hudson, I would have to prep with my team, right,

771
00:37:12,582 --> 00:37:14,942
Speaker 2: I would have to be like, how should I react.

772
00:37:15,062 --> 00:37:17,622
Speaker 2: I don't know how to dance. I'm not talented, I

773
00:37:17,622 --> 00:37:18,661
Speaker 2: don't know much the bet.

774
00:37:19,342 --> 00:37:19,941
Speaker 1: Would it be.

775
00:37:19,942 --> 00:37:24,422
Speaker 2: Better for me to just like high five people as

776
00:37:24,302 --> 00:37:26,821
Speaker 2: the tunnel or should I try and do a bit

777
00:37:26,822 --> 00:37:28,701
Speaker 2: of a shimmy or should I just pretend I'm not

778
00:37:28,741 --> 00:37:33,022
Speaker 2: there choreographs? So now there must be strategy.

779
00:37:33,102 --> 00:37:35,661
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well it's interesting because only one we only know

780
00:37:35,781 --> 00:37:38,662
Speaker 1: of one person who's simply abstained from the Spirit Tunnel,

781
00:37:38,741 --> 00:37:41,262
Speaker 1: and that was Noah Wiley from the Pit and obviously

782
00:37:41,342 --> 00:37:43,502
Speaker 1: from Er and I actually kind of love that move.

783
00:37:43,622 --> 00:37:45,181
Speaker 1: It's like he knew it wasn't going to do him

784
00:37:45,181 --> 00:37:46,861
Speaker 1: any favors, so we just said, I'm not going to

785
00:37:46,902 --> 00:37:47,102
Speaker 1: do it.

786
00:37:47,181 --> 00:37:49,222
Speaker 3: He says in the interview. He was like, I refuse

787
00:37:49,302 --> 00:37:52,102
Speaker 3: to dance in public. And I was like same, Like

788
00:37:52,261 --> 00:37:56,382
Speaker 3: I didn't know we could just range Mountain, Jesse range mountains.

789
00:37:56,502 --> 00:37:59,462
Speaker 3: I was so indeed. I saw that, and I was like,

790
00:37:59,862 --> 00:38:01,901
Speaker 3: I have never related more to anyone because the other

791
00:38:01,942 --> 00:38:03,902
Speaker 3: one that I saw that I highly related to was

792
00:38:04,102 --> 00:38:04,782
Speaker 3: Simon Cowell.

793
00:38:04,862 --> 00:38:07,142
Speaker 1: Oh, dear, let's talk about Simon kaw.

794
00:38:07,221 --> 00:38:10,622
Speaker 2: Kind of why this really got into psyche this week.

795
00:38:11,221 --> 00:38:12,981
Speaker 2: He didn't know what he should.

796
00:38:12,661 --> 00:38:15,821
Speaker 1: Have abstained is. I think I guess he figured, look,

797
00:38:15,862 --> 00:38:18,142
Speaker 1: I'm in the music industry. It would be churlish of

798
00:38:18,261 --> 00:38:20,301
Speaker 1: me not to get involved in the Spirit Tunnel. But

799
00:38:20,661 --> 00:38:23,382
Speaker 1: let's just say he did the Nicole Kidman seal clap,

800
00:38:23,462 --> 00:38:26,741
Speaker 1: if we remember that, where the fingers sort of display

801
00:38:26,862 --> 00:38:30,662
Speaker 1: outwards and he just looks intensely uncomfortable. Here's a question

802
00:38:30,741 --> 00:38:34,142
Speaker 1: for you, Holly, do you think any english person could

803
00:38:34,221 --> 00:38:35,661
Speaker 1: ever do the Spirit Tunnel? No?

804
00:38:35,942 --> 00:38:41,862
Speaker 2: I think that English people are not well plased. Oh no, no, no, Actually,

805
00:38:41,902 --> 00:38:44,102
Speaker 2: he would be endearing in how grumpy he would be

806
00:38:44,142 --> 00:38:45,142
Speaker 2: about the whole thing.

807
00:38:45,502 --> 00:38:47,302
Speaker 1: But it's just he would do finger guns.

808
00:38:47,342 --> 00:38:49,462
Speaker 2: We don't know what to do, Like, it's just not

809
00:38:49,781 --> 00:38:52,261
Speaker 2: in us. It's just not there. The other thing I

810
00:38:52,261 --> 00:38:54,221
Speaker 2: always think about the Spirit Tunnel, and maybe this is

811
00:38:54,261 --> 00:38:56,701
Speaker 2: just because of my workplace, is I don't know if

812
00:38:56,701 --> 00:38:58,741
Speaker 2: the people who are doing all the singing clapping are

813
00:38:58,781 --> 00:39:02,382
Speaker 2: really the crew, but those poor people have to learn

814
00:39:02,462 --> 00:39:05,821
Speaker 2: us off rehearse it, presumably, and then they're having a

815
00:39:05,862 --> 00:39:08,301
Speaker 2: busy day and they're doing all their things and Jennifer's like,

816
00:39:08,502 --> 00:39:11,542
Speaker 2: get up, its Spirit Tunnel time. And you know, for

817
00:39:11,661 --> 00:39:15,301
Speaker 2: Michelle Obama that corridor is packed, but for some other

818
00:39:15,382 --> 00:39:18,502
Speaker 2: people it's a little light on. And it just reminds

819
00:39:18,542 --> 00:39:21,261
Speaker 2: me of sometimes we've had like politicians into Mama Maya

820
00:39:21,582 --> 00:39:25,302
Speaker 2: and you know, we're like, everybody look like really happy

821
00:39:25,302 --> 00:39:25,821
Speaker 2: to see them.

822
00:39:25,862 --> 00:39:26,142
Speaker 3: Come on.

823
00:39:26,181 --> 00:39:28,382
Speaker 2: We need everybody for the social videos, and some people

824
00:39:28,382 --> 00:39:31,622
Speaker 2: are like, I think I've got a headache or like,

825
00:39:32,022 --> 00:39:34,021
Speaker 2: and then other people come and they're like, oh my god.

826
00:39:34,542 --> 00:39:36,821
Speaker 2: I would also be really insecure about how many people

827
00:39:36,862 --> 00:39:37,382
Speaker 2: turned up from me.

828
00:39:37,462 --> 00:39:40,901
Speaker 3: It's incredibly vulnerable and there is no where to hide.

829
00:39:40,942 --> 00:39:41,181
Speaker 1: It is.

830
00:39:41,221 --> 00:39:43,062
Speaker 3: It is the epitome of my worst nightmare.

831
00:39:43,181 --> 00:39:46,582
Speaker 1: Like but that's why it's telling of personality. Because Aaron Pierre,

832
00:39:46,661 --> 00:39:49,422
Speaker 1: no one showed up, no one knew who Aaron Pierre

833
00:39:49,502 --> 00:39:51,861
Speaker 1: from The Fasta was, and he still bought his A

834
00:39:52,022 --> 00:39:54,462
Speaker 1: game and it's a fun game to play. A parlor

835
00:39:54,502 --> 00:39:56,582
Speaker 1: game in your life is to think about who in

836
00:39:56,622 --> 00:39:59,542
Speaker 1: your life would do a great spirit tunnel and who

837
00:39:59,781 --> 00:40:03,181
Speaker 1: just because I got to say, Maya, we're doing an

838
00:40:03,181 --> 00:40:05,301
Speaker 1: amazing spirit tunny annoying.

839
00:40:05,582 --> 00:40:08,701
Speaker 3: My Roman empire has been. There's a band called role

840
00:40:08,741 --> 00:40:12,221
Speaker 3: Model and they are performing this song you will have

841
00:40:12,261 --> 00:40:15,102
Speaker 3: heard it called Sally when the wine runs out live

842
00:40:15,542 --> 00:40:16,982
Speaker 3: and every time they do it, there's a bridge, there's

843
00:40:16,982 --> 00:40:19,142
Speaker 3: a really catchy bit and a really famous person gets on.

844
00:40:19,062 --> 00:40:21,301
Speaker 2: Stage and down seas again another great social place.

845
00:40:21,542 --> 00:40:24,781
Speaker 3: Yes, so you've got Kate Hudson, you've got Olivia Rodrigo,

846
00:40:24,902 --> 00:40:27,261
Speaker 3: You've got I think Renee Rap came out, But the

847
00:40:27,302 --> 00:40:29,542
Speaker 3: best one so far that I have watched on repeat,

848
00:40:29,582 --> 00:40:31,741
Speaker 3: and I think it's always when it's someone you don't

849
00:40:31,781 --> 00:40:36,102
Speaker 3: really expect to be amazing was Natalie Portman. She came out,

850
00:40:36,542 --> 00:40:41,301
Speaker 3: she was so confident, so uninhibited, had incredible rhythm, and

851
00:40:41,342 --> 00:40:43,462
Speaker 3: I was just like, what can I do in my life?

852
00:40:43,582 --> 00:40:46,902
Speaker 3: I'll climb any fucking cringe mountain to look like Natalie

853
00:40:46,942 --> 00:40:49,102
Speaker 3: Portman in my mid forties or whatever it is.

854
00:40:49,142 --> 00:40:50,942
Speaker 1: Do you think it was a black Swan training?

855
00:40:51,261 --> 00:40:54,622
Speaker 2: I was very rat there was something very she sold

856
00:40:54,622 --> 00:40:57,062
Speaker 2: her soul to the devil about that particular appearance because

857
00:40:57,102 --> 00:40:59,742
Speaker 2: she looked twenty and she was having the best time.

858
00:41:00,181 --> 00:41:01,622
Speaker 1: I'm wearing cutoff jenim Shwe.

859
00:41:01,822 --> 00:41:04,022
Speaker 3: It's like, you just can't learn it, and that's why

860
00:41:04,102 --> 00:41:05,502
Speaker 3: it's so revealing him a person?

861
00:41:05,661 --> 00:41:06,221
Speaker 1: Is it? You go?

862
00:41:06,422 --> 00:41:08,142
Speaker 3: It really says something about who you are.

863
00:41:08,221 --> 00:41:11,142
Speaker 2: We should share the little internet clips that we watch

864
00:41:11,181 --> 00:41:15,021
Speaker 2: when we're sad, because Is and I do this quite often.

865
00:41:15,502 --> 00:41:17,861
Speaker 2: Is Timothy Chalomaye on Saturday Night.

866
00:41:17,982 --> 00:41:18,542
Speaker 1: Ah.

867
00:41:18,582 --> 00:41:22,181
Speaker 2: He is exceptionally good, particularly the sketch she does with

868
00:41:22,221 --> 00:41:25,582
Speaker 2: Pete Davidson called Eat Skirt, which every time I see

869
00:41:25,622 --> 00:41:27,661
Speaker 2: it I have to love so hard. Share out that

870
00:41:27,862 --> 00:41:29,741
Speaker 2: is with the things that just lift your spirits when

871
00:41:29,741 --> 00:41:30,221
Speaker 2: you watch that.

872
00:41:30,221 --> 00:41:30,861
Speaker 1: Oh, I love it.

873
00:41:31,622 --> 00:41:34,502
Speaker 3: After the break, the actress who refuses to promote her

874
00:41:34,582 --> 00:41:37,502
Speaker 3: new TV series or pocket any money from it, we

875
00:41:37,582 --> 00:41:40,582
Speaker 3: unpack a scandal unfolding in real Time.

876
00:41:41,181 --> 00:41:44,942
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

877
00:41:44,942 --> 00:41:49,062
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

878
00:41:49,062 --> 00:41:50,782
Speaker 2: of the show notes to get us in your ears

879
00:41:51,062 --> 00:41:53,781
Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to

880
00:41:53,982 --> 00:41:55,622
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

881
00:42:03,862 --> 00:42:06,821
Speaker 3: An actress named Natalie Dormer is refusing to promote her

882
00:42:06,902 --> 00:42:11,422
Speaker 3: latest TV series and has donated every last cent of

883
00:42:11,462 --> 00:42:15,302
Speaker 3: her salary to charity. This was not originally her plan.

884
00:42:15,462 --> 00:42:18,502
Speaker 3: If you don't recognize that name, you will probably know

885
00:42:18,582 --> 00:42:21,701
Speaker 3: her face. Natalie Drmer was in Game of Thrones, she

886
00:42:21,781 --> 00:42:24,142
Speaker 3: was in the Hunger Games franchise, who popped up in

887
00:42:24,221 --> 00:42:28,582
Speaker 3: Captain America. Anyway, this year, she's got this series coming

888
00:42:28,622 --> 00:42:31,702
Speaker 3: out called The Lady, where she plays Sarah Ferguson, Duchess

889
00:42:31,701 --> 00:42:34,902
Speaker 3: of York, and she says that after learning new information

890
00:42:35,142 --> 00:42:39,821
Speaker 3: about Sarah Ferguson's behavior after filming had all wrapped up,

891
00:42:40,462 --> 00:42:43,261
Speaker 3: she will not promote the project and will donate all

892
00:42:43,342 --> 00:42:47,301
Speaker 3: earnings to the National Association for People Abused in Childhood

893
00:42:47,582 --> 00:42:51,742
Speaker 3: and the Center of Expertise on Child's Sexual Abuse. Holly,

894
00:42:51,822 --> 00:42:56,342
Speaker 3: I've seen some headlines Sarah Ferguson, Jeffrey Epstein leaked email

895
00:42:56,542 --> 00:42:59,341
Speaker 3: something something, What is actually going on there?

896
00:43:00,102 --> 00:43:03,221
Speaker 2: So an email has come to light recently in reputable

897
00:43:03,221 --> 00:43:07,382
Speaker 2: British newspapers about an email that Sarah Ferguson sent to

898
00:43:07,462 --> 00:43:10,902
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein all the way back in twenty eleven. Now

899
00:43:11,062 --> 00:43:14,222
Speaker 2: most people know that Prince Andrew has had a whole

900
00:43:14,261 --> 00:43:18,181
Speaker 2: Epstein related crisis and that the late Virginia just Frey

901
00:43:18,542 --> 00:43:20,942
Speaker 2: accused him of sexually assaulting her when she was a minor,

902
00:43:21,062 --> 00:43:24,902
Speaker 2: allegations that he denied, but he still reached a settlement

903
00:43:24,942 --> 00:43:27,342
Speaker 2: with her. It was sealed, so we don't know exactly

904
00:43:27,502 --> 00:43:29,701
Speaker 2: how much it was, but it's estimated to have been

905
00:43:30,022 --> 00:43:33,381
Speaker 2: somewhere between three and twelve million pounds. Right, But this

906
00:43:33,422 --> 00:43:36,301
Speaker 2: isn't about Andrew. This is about Fergie. What came to

907
00:43:36,422 --> 00:43:39,102
Speaker 2: light via these emails, although this part of the story

908
00:43:39,181 --> 00:43:42,301
Speaker 2: was well known already, is that Fergie borrowed money from

909
00:43:42,342 --> 00:43:44,982
Speaker 2: Epstein in twenty ten. And I want you to all

910
00:43:45,062 --> 00:43:49,102
Speaker 2: remember that everybody knew by twenty ten that Epstein had

911
00:43:49,142 --> 00:43:53,582
Speaker 2: already been found guilty of sexual charges around a minor

912
00:43:53,661 --> 00:43:56,062
Speaker 2: and had actually served time for it, So that was

913
00:43:56,062 --> 00:43:58,022
Speaker 2: already on the table. It's not that people didn't know

914
00:43:58,062 --> 00:44:00,942
Speaker 2: that right. In twenty ten, she borrows fifteen thousand pounds

915
00:44:00,942 --> 00:44:03,422
Speaker 2: from him. That might seem like a small ish amount

916
00:44:03,422 --> 00:44:06,062
Speaker 2: of money, but it was allegedly to pay off one

917
00:44:06,102 --> 00:44:09,422
Speaker 2: of her personal assistants. And then she gave an inn

918
00:44:09,822 --> 00:44:13,302
Speaker 2: where she publicly distanced herself from Epstein. So she said

919
00:44:13,382 --> 00:44:15,742
Speaker 2: in that interview where she was brought up, you borrowed

920
00:44:15,741 --> 00:44:17,741
Speaker 2: money from him? Is he one of your friends? She

921
00:44:18,181 --> 00:44:23,462
Speaker 2: condemned pedophilia's sexual abuse, basically distance herself from Epstein, But

922
00:44:23,622 --> 00:44:26,542
Speaker 2: the email which is the new part, was sent to

923
00:44:26,582 --> 00:44:30,341
Speaker 2: him after that interview, basically apologizing for writing it. In

924
00:44:30,342 --> 00:44:34,421
Speaker 2: the email, she writes, I know you feel hillaciously let

925
00:44:34,462 --> 00:44:37,502
Speaker 2: down by me, and I must humbly apologize to you

926
00:44:37,582 --> 00:44:40,661
Speaker 2: and your heart for that. She called him a steadfast,

927
00:44:40,741 --> 00:44:43,861
Speaker 2: generous and supreme friend, and she assured him that she

928
00:44:43,982 --> 00:44:48,022
Speaker 2: never used the P word her words about him. Now

929
00:44:48,062 --> 00:44:50,661
Speaker 2: you might be wondering why a duchess would need to

930
00:44:50,701 --> 00:44:53,741
Speaker 2: borrow fifteen thousand pounds from a dodgy billionaire.

931
00:44:54,221 --> 00:44:55,782
Speaker 1: Couldn't you borrow it from the queen?

932
00:44:55,942 --> 00:44:56,262
Speaker 5: Well?

933
00:44:56,422 --> 00:44:58,981
Speaker 2: You know, I wonder, because so this is what's really

934
00:44:58,982 --> 00:45:01,462
Speaker 2: interesting about all this. I don't want to disappear down

935
00:45:01,502 --> 00:45:05,102
Speaker 2: a tunnel. But we imagine that all the royals are loaded,

936
00:45:05,142 --> 00:45:09,461
Speaker 2: and obviously compared to ordinary people, they are, but at

937
00:45:10,062 --> 00:45:13,502
Speaker 2: unless you're one of the very top tiers. Most royals

938
00:45:13,502 --> 00:45:16,261
Speaker 2: are asset rich but cash poor. So they might get

939
00:45:16,302 --> 00:45:19,582
Speaker 2: given here's an estate to live in. It's got a

940
00:45:19,622 --> 00:45:23,622
Speaker 2: crumbling beautiful estate house on it. It's got staff who

941
00:45:23,661 --> 00:45:25,221
Speaker 2: need to be paid, it's got grounds that need to

942
00:45:25,261 --> 00:45:27,741
Speaker 2: be maintained, it's got blah blah blah blah blah. But

943
00:45:27,822 --> 00:45:32,342
Speaker 2: they're not allowed to earn money in traditional ways very often,

944
00:45:32,422 --> 00:45:34,661
Speaker 2: and this is changing a bit over time as the

945
00:45:34,781 --> 00:45:37,062
Speaker 2: rules have changed about who's on the public person who isn't.

946
00:45:37,102 --> 00:45:39,661
Speaker 2: But broadly speaking, you're a bit restricted in what you

947
00:45:39,701 --> 00:45:42,462
Speaker 2: can do for money, but your lifestyle might be quite expensive.

948
00:45:43,022 --> 00:45:46,142
Speaker 2: And Prince Harry wrote about this in Spare and a

949
00:45:46,181 --> 00:45:48,661
Speaker 2: lot of royles have sort of muched about it. Is

950
00:45:48,701 --> 00:45:51,661
Speaker 2: that they perceive to be living the life of the

951
00:45:51,661 --> 00:45:55,701
Speaker 2: extremely privileged, and they are, but their actual resources are

952
00:45:55,741 --> 00:45:58,502
Speaker 2: not that deep, which is why your Prince Andrews of

953
00:45:58,542 --> 00:46:00,302
Speaker 2: the world, well, I mean one of the reasons why

954
00:46:00,542 --> 00:46:03,542
Speaker 2: the Prince Andrews of the World was traveling around the

955
00:46:03,542 --> 00:46:06,781
Speaker 2: world staying in Epstein's house in Florida, staying in Epstein's

956
00:46:06,822 --> 00:46:09,262
Speaker 2: house in New York, and various other high profile business

957
00:46:09,261 --> 00:46:13,062
Speaker 2: people who want to associate themselves with royalty. It's funny

958
00:46:13,062 --> 00:46:14,821
Speaker 2: because when I've said this before, but I was just

959
00:46:14,862 --> 00:46:16,582
Speaker 2: sick and I was watching the Gilded Age and all

960
00:46:16,622 --> 00:46:18,821
Speaker 2: the way back then. So in New York in the

961
00:46:18,822 --> 00:46:21,462
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds, they were kind of buying dukes, you know,

962
00:46:21,542 --> 00:46:25,182
Speaker 2: to marry into their families because the Americans had money

963
00:46:25,502 --> 00:46:27,942
Speaker 2: and the Brits had status. And it's kind of like,

964
00:46:28,382 --> 00:46:30,422
Speaker 2: why do you think, oh, I need to get back

965
00:46:30,462 --> 00:46:31,221
Speaker 2: to Fergie, don't I?

966
00:46:31,422 --> 00:46:34,342
Speaker 3: Yeah, why do you think that she's now been cast

967
00:46:34,582 --> 00:46:36,182
Speaker 3: as such a villain in this story.

968
00:46:36,261 --> 00:46:38,861
Speaker 2: So that email leaked a couple of weeks ago, and

969
00:46:38,942 --> 00:46:41,781
Speaker 2: since that happened, a lot of charities in the UK

970
00:46:41,902 --> 00:46:44,661
Speaker 2: have dumped Fergie, so they, you know, even though she's

971
00:46:44,701 --> 00:46:48,782
Speaker 2: not an official royal anymore, she still is the patron

972
00:46:48,822 --> 00:46:51,542
Speaker 2: of a breast cancer charity, and she still lives quite

973
00:46:51,582 --> 00:46:53,862
Speaker 2: a public life, and she's still in the royal family,

974
00:46:53,902 --> 00:46:56,702
Speaker 2: to the point that at Princess Michael of Kent's funeral

975
00:46:56,741 --> 00:46:59,062
Speaker 2: recently she was there. She was quite prominent at it

976
00:46:59,102 --> 00:47:02,941
Speaker 2: with Andrew. But since that email leaked that showed that

977
00:47:03,062 --> 00:47:07,021
Speaker 2: she apologized to Epstein sort of cozied up to him

978
00:47:07,181 --> 00:47:09,861
Speaker 2: after the fact, it's really trashed.

979
00:47:09,542 --> 00:47:12,622
Speaker 3: Share commented or apologized about that. Has there been any

980
00:47:12,622 --> 00:47:13,222
Speaker 3: comment from.

981
00:47:13,102 --> 00:47:16,422
Speaker 2: Fergie not Since then, she hasn't made any official comment.

982
00:47:16,942 --> 00:47:19,502
Speaker 2: But I think that what's happened is that people are

983
00:47:19,542 --> 00:47:23,222
Speaker 2: conflating rightly, So I guess people are conflating the fact

984
00:47:23,701 --> 00:47:26,622
Speaker 2: that you know, you pretended. And this is also what

985
00:47:26,862 --> 00:47:31,062
Speaker 2: Prince Andrew got sort of skewered for in that famous interview.

986
00:47:31,342 --> 00:47:34,502
Speaker 2: You pretended that as soon as you knew that Epstein

987
00:47:34,622 --> 00:47:37,822
Speaker 2: was who he was, you backed off. But then, funnily enough,

988
00:47:37,902 --> 00:47:40,022
Speaker 2: a year later, here's a photo of you at his

989
00:47:40,102 --> 00:47:41,941
Speaker 2: house in New York, and Prince Andrew was like, oh,

990
00:47:41,982 --> 00:47:43,301
Speaker 2: I just want to tell him that we couldn't be

991
00:47:43,342 --> 00:47:45,901
Speaker 2: friends anymore, and like this is a similar thing.

992
00:47:46,062 --> 00:47:50,102
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. You just wonder what Epstein's dynamic was

993
00:47:50,142 --> 00:47:53,342
Speaker 1: with these people, because the British ambassador to the US

994
00:47:53,661 --> 00:47:56,062
Speaker 1: was just fired a couple of weeks ago for doing

995
00:47:56,102 --> 00:48:00,022
Speaker 1: exactly the same thing as Fergie, publicly disavowing his relationship

996
00:48:00,102 --> 00:48:02,781
Speaker 1: with Epstein. His friendship with him and then writing him

997
00:48:02,781 --> 00:48:05,661
Speaker 1: an email saying, don't worry about everything I said in public.

998
00:48:05,741 --> 00:48:08,381
Speaker 1: I actually think you're the best friend ever. Yes, So

999
00:48:08,422 --> 00:48:09,062
Speaker 1: to go back.

1000
00:48:08,902 --> 00:48:11,901
Speaker 3: To Natalie do What I find interesting, right, is that

1001
00:48:12,022 --> 00:48:14,062
Speaker 3: in five minutes there will be a film about Jeffrey

1002
00:48:14,062 --> 00:48:19,462
Speaker 3: Epstein with let's go Sean pin Choice play Jeffrey Epstein.

1003
00:48:19,701 --> 00:48:21,781
Speaker 3: He'll be paid a bunch of money and he will

1004
00:48:21,822 --> 00:48:26,022
Speaker 3: be on every show promoting his movie about Epstein. Probably

1005
00:48:26,062 --> 00:48:28,381
Speaker 3: won't donate that money to charity We've got. I mean,

1006
00:48:28,502 --> 00:48:31,502
Speaker 3: Taika Waititi has played Hitler, like you know, people play

1007
00:48:31,902 --> 00:48:36,662
Speaker 3: bad in adverted commas characters all the time. For Dormer,

1008
00:48:36,822 --> 00:48:39,342
Speaker 3: do you think it was that she played a character

1009
00:48:39,382 --> 00:48:42,142
Speaker 3: who she thought she knew and understood, and now she

1010
00:48:42,181 --> 00:48:47,022
Speaker 3: feels like she hasn't presented an accurate portrayal because she

1011
00:48:47,102 --> 00:48:48,502
Speaker 3: didn't have this piece of information.

1012
00:48:48,701 --> 00:48:51,542
Speaker 2: Look, it's hard to know without seeing the project, right,

1013
00:48:51,862 --> 00:48:54,261
Speaker 2: but let's imagine, because that Fergie is one of those

1014
00:48:54,261 --> 00:48:56,301
Speaker 2: people who lives in the British imagination as a bit

1015
00:48:56,342 --> 00:48:59,542
Speaker 2: of a joke. Right, So, even though she was also

1016
00:48:59,622 --> 00:49:05,142
Speaker 2: busted by an undercover reporter soliciting access to the Prince

1017
00:49:05,181 --> 00:49:07,781
Speaker 2: for money for fifty pounds, like, oh, I'm sure I

1018
00:49:07,781 --> 00:49:09,741
Speaker 2: could get your business proposition in front of them, like

1019
00:49:10,102 --> 00:49:12,821
Speaker 2: she has been done for a few dodgy things over time.

1020
00:49:12,902 --> 00:49:14,342
Speaker 1: Has she ever considered a job?

1021
00:49:15,502 --> 00:49:17,741
Speaker 2: It is a very good question. One of the things

1022
00:49:17,741 --> 00:49:19,462
Speaker 2: she said in the Epstein email is that because she

1023
00:49:19,502 --> 00:49:21,661
Speaker 2: writes children's books, right, And she said, that's why I

1024
00:49:21,701 --> 00:49:25,422
Speaker 2: had to say those things, like she's very dodgy anyway,

1025
00:49:25,862 --> 00:49:29,341
Speaker 2: But she even with that knowledge, the space she occupies

1026
00:49:29,342 --> 00:49:31,942
Speaker 2: in the British sort of culture is a bit of

1027
00:49:31,982 --> 00:49:36,342
Speaker 2: a joke and interesting. Who knows how Natalie Dormer plays

1028
00:49:36,382 --> 00:49:40,861
Speaker 2: her because maybe it's quite light And what I wonder

1029
00:49:40,902 --> 00:49:42,821
Speaker 2: about that because I think you're so right, Jesse, like

1030
00:49:42,942 --> 00:49:44,701
Speaker 2: the Sean Penn will just throw him under the bus.

1031
00:49:44,741 --> 00:49:46,942
Speaker 2: Sean Penn is playing Jeffrey Epstein in the arm in

1032
00:49:47,022 --> 00:49:51,342
Speaker 2: it is taking the millions. But you know that when

1033
00:49:51,342 --> 00:49:54,822
Speaker 2: that project comes out, every press interview that Dorma does,

1034
00:49:54,862 --> 00:49:58,022
Speaker 2: she would be asked about this now because the Epstein

1035
00:49:58,062 --> 00:50:00,582
Speaker 2: email has changed the way people see Fergie. I think,

1036
00:50:00,622 --> 00:50:02,661
Speaker 2: at least for now it might blow over. But she

1037
00:50:02,741 --> 00:50:05,221
Speaker 2: would be saying, how do you feel about portraying somebody

1038
00:50:05,261 --> 00:50:08,342
Speaker 2: who was you know, an apologist for a pedophile or whatever.

1039
00:50:08,422 --> 00:50:10,781
Speaker 2: And does Natalie do normally want to put herself through

1040
00:50:10,781 --> 00:50:13,902
Speaker 2: that this show? I think that actually it's quite a

1041
00:50:13,902 --> 00:50:16,902
Speaker 2: small part in it. It's not about Sarah Ferguson, but

1042
00:50:16,942 --> 00:50:19,622
Speaker 2: Sarah Ferguson appears in the story do you want to

1043
00:50:19,661 --> 00:50:20,622
Speaker 2: put yourself through that?

1044
00:50:20,982 --> 00:50:23,502
Speaker 1: You know? Yeah, she thought she'd be like answering questions

1045
00:50:23,542 --> 00:50:26,982
Speaker 1: about the toe sucking that fergue in the eighties, not

1046
00:50:27,102 --> 00:50:28,502
Speaker 1: about pedophilia exactly.

1047
00:50:28,582 --> 00:50:30,822
Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that it brings

1048
00:50:30,862 --> 00:50:34,582
Speaker 2: up that's interesting to me is that we've always touch tutted,

1049
00:50:34,622 --> 00:50:37,942
Speaker 2: and rightly so about how much public money royals get.

1050
00:50:37,982 --> 00:50:40,062
Speaker 2: But one of the things about them not having an

1051
00:50:40,142 --> 00:50:42,582
Speaker 2: income stream and not being allowed to earn money, which

1052
00:50:42,661 --> 00:50:44,422
Speaker 2: is what Prince Harry has complained about a lot. One

1053
00:50:44,422 --> 00:50:46,102
Speaker 2: of the reasons why he and Megan wanted to leave

1054
00:50:46,902 --> 00:50:50,221
Speaker 2: is it does actually open them up to being quite corruptible.

1055
00:50:50,622 --> 00:50:52,542
Speaker 2: And Andrew isn't the only royal who that's been the

1056
00:50:52,542 --> 00:50:54,462
Speaker 2: case for and so it kind of makes you think

1057
00:50:54,822 --> 00:50:57,582
Speaker 2: we ask all the time, why doesn't King Charles cast

1058
00:50:57,661 --> 00:51:00,821
Speaker 2: Andrew like properly out like publicly humiliate him, kick him

1059
00:51:00,822 --> 00:51:03,741
Speaker 2: out of the family and Fergie, and some of the

1060
00:51:03,902 --> 00:51:06,941
Speaker 2: speculation I've seen around this reporting has been that they

1061
00:51:07,022 --> 00:51:10,582
Speaker 2: might be more detrimental outside the tenth and inside the tent,

1062
00:51:10,622 --> 00:51:14,102
Speaker 2: as in they'll just start talking they know like harsh yep,

1063
00:51:14,181 --> 00:51:16,542
Speaker 2: they know too, like exactly like Harry, he's you know,

1064
00:51:16,781 --> 00:51:18,822
Speaker 2: from outside the tent. He can say all these things.

1065
00:51:19,221 --> 00:51:20,942
Speaker 2: They know a lot of things, they can reveal a

1066
00:51:20,942 --> 00:51:24,142
Speaker 2: lot of things, and so that actually what the Lion

1067
00:51:24,261 --> 00:51:25,821
Speaker 2: King Charles is trying to walk is like.

1068
00:51:26,181 --> 00:51:26,982
Speaker 3: Keep them onside.

1069
00:51:27,022 --> 00:51:29,982
Speaker 2: I don't approve of my brother and his wife, but

1070
00:51:30,902 --> 00:51:33,462
Speaker 2: they're not completely kicking them out because they might be

1071
00:51:33,542 --> 00:51:38,221
Speaker 2: more trouble outside. Out Louder is a massive thank you

1072
00:51:38,382 --> 00:51:41,462
Speaker 2: for being with us today as always, and to our

1073
00:51:41,542 --> 00:51:44,821
Speaker 2: fabulous team for putting the show together. Don't forget you

1074
00:51:44,822 --> 00:51:46,741
Speaker 2: can watch us on YouTube and that we'll be back

1075
00:51:46,741 --> 00:51:47,981
Speaker 2: in your ears tomorrow.

1076
00:51:47,942 --> 00:51:50,261
Speaker 3: And follow us on Instagram at Mama out Loud because

1077
00:51:50,261 --> 00:51:52,182
Speaker 3: we are going to share all those videos that we

1078
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Speaker 3: were talking about.

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Speaker 1: And don't forget to listen to Parenting out Loud, which

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00:51:55,582 --> 00:51:58,741
Speaker 1: drops every week on a Saturday. Last week, we talked

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Speaker 1: about Rihanna and Asap Rocky and their love junk and

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00:52:04,062 --> 00:52:06,062
Speaker 1: no it's not what you think you know.

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Speaker 2: Mia calls asap rocky, asap rocky, it's my.

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Speaker 1: Favorite mind it in its own feed by searching, parenting

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00:52:14,502 --> 00:52:17,301
Speaker 1: out Loud and tap follows so you don't miss a

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Speaker 1: single episode of us.

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Speaker 3: Bye Bye, shout out to any Mum and me A

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Speaker 3: subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want

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Speaker 3: to support us, subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very

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Speaker 3: best way to do so. There's a link in the

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Speaker 3: episode description.