WEBVTT - How Sally Hepworth Survived Her Divorce 0:00:05.799 --> 0:00:08.519 You're listening to a mother Mia podcast. 0:00:09.159 --> 0:00:13.279 Hello, no filter listeners, it's Capline Brooke here. We're bringing 0:00:13.319 --> 0:00:17.519 back this conversation with best selling author Sally Hepworth, who 0:00:17.559 --> 0:00:20.359 many of you will now also know as one of 0:00:20.399 --> 0:00:24.159 the hosts of Unleashed, the podcast for gen X women. 0:00:25.119 --> 0:00:31.599 Sally is famous for writing deeply addictive novels about marriage, motherhood, betrayal, 0:00:32.119 --> 0:00:36.319 and family secrets, but in this episode, she turns that 0:00:36.519 --> 0:00:44.519 insight onto her own life. In a conversation that is funny, wise, vulnerable, 0:00:44.679 --> 0:00:49.639 and incredibly candid. Sally opened up about the breakdown of 0:00:49.679 --> 0:00:54.559 her twenty year marriage, co parenting, dating again, and why 0:00:54.639 --> 0:00:57.839 she believes this chapter of her life might actually be 0:00:57.959 --> 0:01:02.199 her happiest yet. It's one of those conversations that stays 0:01:02.239 --> 0:01:05.359 with you long after it ends, So if you missed 0:01:05.359 --> 0:01:08.319 it the first time round, or even if you didn't, 0:01:08.519 --> 0:01:13.039 it's worth another listen. Here is my conversation with Sally Hepworth. 0:01:13.599 --> 0:01:15.639 I have the scars and I do feel like I 0:01:15.719 --> 0:01:20.359 lost a layer of skin. You know, everything was raw, 0:01:20.679 --> 0:01:25.199 everything I felt things is more beautiful and soader. You know, 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.159 is marriage good for women? I've thought about that a. 0:01:29.119 --> 0:01:40.359 Lot, you know, when someone seems like they've got it 0:01:40.399 --> 0:01:45.519 all together hmmm. For instance, best selling author, Gorgeous, Family, 0:01:45.799 --> 0:01:50.599 thriving career, beautiful to boot, and then you find out 0:01:51.199 --> 0:01:56.279 they've been quietly rebuilding their life from scratch. Well, that 0:01:56.919 --> 0:02:01.039 is Sally Hepworth. She sold millions of books around the world. 0:02:01.119 --> 0:02:04.479 She's written a best seller every year since twenty fifty. 0:02:05.719 --> 0:02:08.479 But what you might not know is that over the 0:02:08.599 --> 0:02:15.359 last couple of years, Sally Hepworth's life completely imploded. Today 0:02:15.399 --> 0:02:20.279 we talk about that divorce, grief, the shit box. Yes 0:02:20.439 --> 0:02:23.799 you'll find out what that is. We talk about female 0:02:23.839 --> 0:02:29.199 friendship and falling in love again when you swore you wouldn't. 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.279 This is a conversation about what it means to let 0:02:33.319 --> 0:02:36.959 go of the life you thought you wanted and build 0:02:37.039 --> 0:02:42.919 a new life that actually fits. Sally Hepworth. You of 0:02:42.959 --> 0:02:47.359 the lemon water, the cleansing lemon water. Welcome to No Filter. 0:02:47.719 --> 0:02:48.319 Thank you. 0:02:48.799 --> 0:02:51.199 And here we are both early in the morning. 0:02:51.399 --> 0:02:54.559 After thinking that it was ten am instead of nine. 0:02:54.719 --> 0:02:57.119 Both of us thought that what a miracle that we 0:02:57.199 --> 0:03:00.719 made up. And here we are. But what okay, you 0:03:00.879 --> 0:03:06.639 have shared so much of your self, but kind of 0:03:06.679 --> 0:03:13.119 in disguise. I think through your characters. Yeah, which have 0:03:13.239 --> 0:03:19.519 resonated with millions, literally millions of people, and you have 0:03:19.679 --> 0:03:23.039 had this is so remarkable, a best seller every year 0:03:23.079 --> 0:03:26.799 since twenty fifteen. So that's a lot. It's a lot. 0:03:27.719 --> 0:03:30.599 Yeah, it sounds like a lot. When it's going to 0:03:30.599 --> 0:03:33.159 be the tenth this year. In a couple of months, 0:03:33.439 --> 0:03:38.519 the my book will be yeah, right, and yeah it do. 0:03:38.759 --> 0:03:42.679 It feels amazing to think back to when I started 0:03:42.959 --> 0:03:45.319 writing in two thousand and nine, when I was pregnant 0:03:45.319 --> 0:03:46.199 with my first child. 0:03:46.359 --> 0:03:46.759 Yeah. 0:03:46.799 --> 0:03:49.279 All I wanted was to get a novel published. 0:03:49.679 --> 0:03:52.199 Yes, and then oh that's a dream. 0:03:52.679 --> 0:03:55.039 Yeah, and then the gold post kept moving. Then I 0:03:55.039 --> 0:03:57.639 wanted to make a career out of being an author, 0:03:57.679 --> 0:03:59.679 and then I wanted to become a best seller. You know, 0:03:59.719 --> 0:04:02.279 some people say they didn't dream of that, but I did. 0:04:02.519 --> 0:04:03.999 I had big dreams. 0:04:04.239 --> 0:04:07.599 And when like, how long had you had those dreams? 0:04:08.079 --> 0:04:11.999 Well, I suppose as soon as I got my foot 0:04:12.039 --> 0:04:13.959 in the door and I started to get published, you 0:04:13.999 --> 0:04:16.119 know what might not dream big. I mean, I didn't 0:04:16.319 --> 0:04:18.199 know that I was going to make it, but you 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:19.759 have to kind of aim for something. 0:04:19.919 --> 0:04:22.199 I do always. I do like to say to friends 0:04:22.919 --> 0:04:27.319 miracles happen. There's no reason that it can't be the 0:04:27.319 --> 0:04:33.119 miracle for you. But the miracle is often hard work. Yeah, 0:04:33.239 --> 0:04:34.439 that's the miracle. 0:04:34.799 --> 0:04:37.959 Yeah, And I guess to write a novel, you're doing 0:04:37.999 --> 0:04:40.559 the hard work, right, like everyone who's written one. To 0:04:40.639 --> 0:04:42.679 get in the game, you have to do the hard work. 0:04:43.039 --> 0:04:45.119 And then there's the magic of you know, are your 0:04:45.159 --> 0:04:47.319 books going to resonate? Are people going to buy them? 0:04:47.759 --> 0:04:50.319 Are they going to in some cases hit at the 0:04:50.359 --> 0:04:54.599 right time that that's going to become popular. Sometimes that 0:04:54.679 --> 0:04:57.759 retroactively happens these days, and books take off years after 0:04:57.759 --> 0:05:01.999 they've come out. I don't know why, but I really 0:05:02.039 --> 0:05:06.959 do feel so fortunate to be while also allowing that, 0:05:07.039 --> 0:05:08.999 you know, I've done the work and I do think 0:05:09.119 --> 0:05:12.719 that I'm past imposter syndrome. I think I'm good at 0:05:12.719 --> 0:05:14.479 it now. I really enjoy it. 0:05:14.559 --> 0:05:18.239 Oh what a good feeling. Yeah. When did that come? 0:05:18.799 --> 0:05:24.879 Was it as a result of outside affirmation or is 0:05:24.919 --> 0:05:26.919 it something that comes from inside? 0:05:27.239 --> 0:05:32.559 Great question. I suspect probably started to come after a 0:05:32.599 --> 0:05:34.039 little bit of outside affirmation. 0:05:34.439 --> 0:05:35.119 That does help. 0:05:35.319 --> 0:05:37.559 Yeah, I would like to say it was internal. I 0:05:37.599 --> 0:05:40.079 think by the time I wrote my fifth book, I 0:05:40.159 --> 0:05:42.279 remember that was. The Mother in Law was the book 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:46.319 that kind of, you know, broke out, as they say, 0:05:46.959 --> 0:05:49.719 and then each book since then has kind of built 0:05:49.719 --> 0:05:53.759 on it. And sometime between then and now, I just 0:05:53.799 --> 0:05:57.959 started to think to myself, when you know, I've written 0:05:57.959 --> 0:06:01.559 a couple of short stories recently, and I've never written 0:06:01.559 --> 0:06:03.679 a short story. I mean before I wrote the first one, 0:06:03.999 --> 0:06:07.239 and I remember Amazon approaching me to write it and 0:06:08.039 --> 0:06:10.159 I said, yeah, okay, I'll do it, and then I 0:06:10.199 --> 0:06:12.359 hung up and I immediately googled how to write a 0:06:12.359 --> 0:06:15.159 short story because I thought, yeah, I can do it. Well, 0:06:15.159 --> 0:06:17.519 of course I can do it, And that snuck up 0:06:17.559 --> 0:06:20.119 on me because I didn't always feel that way. 0:06:20.159 --> 0:06:23.279 Of Course, The Mother in Law was a really interesting 0:06:23.319 --> 0:06:27.279 one because it showed that you have a capacity which 0:06:27.319 --> 0:06:29.919 I think you always have to do as a writer. 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:36.399 It showed you have a real capacity to see the 0:06:36.439 --> 0:06:40.079 other side of someone, and you do that with all 0:06:40.119 --> 0:06:43.919 of your characters obviously, but that was a really seminal 0:06:43.959 --> 0:06:48.399 one because I think it's so hot, Yeah, isn't it? 0:06:48.319 --> 0:06:48.399 It? 0:06:48.639 --> 0:06:52.359 Sticky? A mother in law? And yet you always were 0:06:52.799 --> 0:06:57.039 your handling of the concept and even in your conversations 0:06:57.079 --> 0:07:00.559 around it were very understanding of what it means to 0:07:00.639 --> 0:07:01.999 be a mother in. 0:07:01.999 --> 0:07:05.719 Law, I hope. So that's always been the interesting part 0:07:05.759 --> 0:07:10.839 of writing for me is there are books, I assume 0:07:11.079 --> 0:07:14.719 that have been written about awful mothers in law, and 0:07:14.919 --> 0:07:19.319 movies and monsters in law and jokes and jokes, and 0:07:19.399 --> 0:07:22.079 so what was interesting to me about tackling it was to, 0:07:23.159 --> 0:07:26.279 you know, to reverse engineer or to look at the 0:07:26.319 --> 0:07:30.079 other side, and what if you know mothers in law 0:07:30.119 --> 0:07:32.559 aren't awful, because they're not. I mean, my mum is 0:07:32.559 --> 0:07:35.439 a mother in law and she's beautiful. I adore her. 0:07:35.919 --> 0:07:38.879 I also know that she irritates my sisters a lot. Sometimes. 0:07:39.719 --> 0:07:44.159 Well, yes, there's always that that kind of tension, there's 0:07:44.159 --> 0:07:46.719 that rab A point that you've made is that that 0:07:47.519 --> 0:07:50.759 a mother in law is in a unique position because 0:07:50.959 --> 0:07:56.119 she loves the same man more woman, daughter or son, 0:07:56.799 --> 0:07:59.359 but has no say in it. The people that are 0:07:59.439 --> 0:08:03.959 trust together. But I'm curious, particularly about your understanding of 0:08:04.039 --> 0:08:08.999 human names, which I believe to be immense well just 0:08:09.719 --> 0:08:15.039 partly through your research on every character and situation, and 0:08:15.119 --> 0:08:20.879 you have had your characters often have confronted every type 0:08:20.879 --> 0:08:26.439 of rupture you know, And now this is what I'm 0:08:26.519 --> 0:08:32.159 curious about because you've encountered that own rupture yourself, and 0:08:32.199 --> 0:08:35.839 you've changed your life drastically since the last time you 0:08:35.839 --> 0:08:38.799 were on no filter with me, the last two times 0:08:38.839 --> 0:08:42.599 you're on, how has that been You're now divorced. 0:08:43.239 --> 0:08:47.119 Yeah, I mean, look, all of these experiences, they become 0:08:47.159 --> 0:08:50.119 a part of you, and so they leak out onto 0:08:50.159 --> 0:08:54.759 the page, I think. But I will say that every 0:08:54.959 --> 0:08:56.599 you know, my books in a way have followed the 0:08:56.639 --> 0:08:59.919 trajectory of things that I've gone through, motherhood, you know, 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.399 even not being able to get pregnant and all of 0:09:03.439 --> 0:09:07.479 those things. And now with the divorce, I think that's 0:09:07.519 --> 0:09:12.119 been the most significant thing that's happened to me. I mean, 0:09:12.199 --> 0:09:15.559 and I say this acknowledging that this makes me very lucky, 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.599 but it's the most significant thing that's happened to me 0:09:18.639 --> 0:09:19.559 in my life, the. 0:09:19.479 --> 0:09:20.479 Most difficult thing. 0:09:20.919 --> 0:09:25.639 Yeah, and it's just coming up to two years ago. Sorry, 0:09:25.639 --> 0:09:28.759 it's just gone over two years since we separated. And 0:09:29.839 --> 0:09:32.079 I was thinking about it, knowing that we were going 0:09:32.119 --> 0:09:35.999 to talk about it today, and I was thinking, am I, 0:09:36.039 --> 0:09:39.279 How am I about that? Like? Am I over it? 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:44.439 Am I? And I'm not? I mean, it's I wonder 0:09:44.479 --> 0:09:47.639 if it'll be one of those things like the grief 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.199 of death, that it changes. 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:52.359 But it's always with you. 0:09:52.839 --> 0:09:56.439 Yeah, I wonder. I mean, I don't know. And as 0:09:56.439 --> 0:09:59.839 you say, I'm so curious about people. I'm curious about 0:10:01.399 --> 0:10:03.639 you know, the last two years marriage, you know, I've 0:10:03.639 --> 0:10:07.039 been looking around it, marriages and thinking what makes a 0:10:07.119 --> 0:10:10.399 marriage work, what makes them fail? What makes people so 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:15.439 angry after they get divorced, what makes people nasty? What 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.999 makes a good divorce? 0:10:18.399 --> 0:10:21.439 And how is your divorce? By the way, Look a 0:10:21.479 --> 0:10:23.999 little bit of everything, I guess along the way, but 0:10:24.639 --> 0:10:26.279 if overall. 0:10:26.279 --> 0:10:28.479 Yeah, look what you know. The thing that I have 0:10:28.599 --> 0:10:34.599 learned from this is that whenever someone would get divorced 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:38.799 in my life, prior to it being me, I used 0:10:38.839 --> 0:10:41.919 to want to know what happened. And when I asked 0:10:41.919 --> 0:10:47.079 that question, I expected the answer to be a sentence 0:10:47.199 --> 0:10:52.119 or two sentences, and something that attributed blame to one person. 0:10:52.199 --> 0:10:54.959 There was a victim and a perpetrator. You know. I 0:10:54.999 --> 0:10:59.719 wanted to hear he had an affair or she was crazy, 0:10:59.759 --> 0:11:02.239 which has been clear cut yes, and so you immediately 0:11:02.319 --> 0:11:05.799 know that's what happened. And and what I've discovered since 0:11:05.839 --> 0:11:08.839 then and in my own case, this is true. I mean, 0:11:08.879 --> 0:11:11.279 you might be able to, for the sake of conversation, 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:14.519 boil it down to one or two things, but ultimately 0:11:15.119 --> 0:11:18.079 you could write a book. It's not one or two sentences. 0:11:18.519 --> 0:11:20.719 You could write a book, and maybe I will. 0:11:21.319 --> 0:11:24.679 Well, it is. It is fascinating, and because it's such 0:11:24.719 --> 0:11:30.239 a common experience and for it to be so traumatic, yes, 0:11:31.399 --> 0:11:37.319 and so common and yet not really, I don't think 0:11:37.359 --> 0:11:42.479 it's really given the full weight that it deserves, the 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.479 significance in a person's life. 0:11:45.959 --> 0:11:49.719 I agree strongly, and in fact, look, I don't know 0:11:50.359 --> 0:11:53.039 if my experience is true of everyone, and of course 0:11:53.039 --> 0:11:56.679 it's not. Everyone has a different experiences. But I was 0:11:56.839 --> 0:12:04.319 so knocked to my ass from it, and even myself. 0:12:04.319 --> 0:12:06.839 If I heard someone was divorced before it happened to me, 0:12:06.879 --> 0:12:09.159 I would have said, oh, that's a shame. It certainly 0:12:09.319 --> 0:12:12.519 wasn't on par with you know, other terrible things that 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.239 happened to people, like a disease, like. 0:12:14.719 --> 0:12:17.039 But it's a terrible thing and it is kind of 0:12:17.079 --> 0:12:20.759 a death. Yeah, it's a death of I mean all 0:12:20.799 --> 0:12:22.759 those things that lead you to get married in the 0:12:22.799 --> 0:12:27.399 first place, Yes, the hope, the love, the starry eyed 0:12:27.519 --> 0:12:30.919 whatever it was, it's the antithesis of that. So it 0:12:31.039 --> 0:12:33.519 is in some ways that it is. 0:12:33.719 --> 0:12:35.999 And on top of all that, I mean, that is 0:12:36.039 --> 0:12:37.639 the big part. And then on top of that there's 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:43.079 the life up people. You know that there's worries about 0:12:43.079 --> 0:12:47.959 financial worries, there's emotional concerns for the children, children, there's 0:12:49.799 --> 0:12:52.319 you know, I mean that part is so hard, that 0:12:52.479 --> 0:12:54.999 you're going through something so difficult, and yet you have 0:12:55.079 --> 0:12:57.479 to do the best parenting of your life, you know, 0:12:57.639 --> 0:13:02.439 in order to hopefully get your children. 0:13:02.279 --> 0:13:04.399 Well, how do you do that? Because like you've got 0:13:04.439 --> 0:13:07.839 through three children, got two teenagers and an eight year old, 0:13:07.919 --> 0:13:11.679 I do I mean people like to say that children 0:13:11.799 --> 0:13:15.639 are resilient. I think that underestimates often the impact of 0:13:15.799 --> 0:13:19.439 major emotional shifts for children. I think we like to 0:13:19.479 --> 0:13:22.039 say they're resilient because it makes it easier for us 0:13:22.119 --> 0:13:24.439 to kind of push through what we have to push 0:13:24.519 --> 0:13:27.479 through with. I don't even think that they're resilient. What 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:31.679 they are is adaptable and good at hiding stuff that 0:13:31.759 --> 0:13:35.679 they might be feeling because they're all antena yes. 0:13:35.639 --> 0:13:38.159 Or showing it in different way. I mean, my daughter, 0:13:38.359 --> 0:13:40.719 my youngest was six at the time and so I 0:13:40.759 --> 0:13:43.599 saw her dealing with it in ways that were not 0:13:44.319 --> 0:13:47.759 you know, she wasn't expressing it directly, but she was 0:13:48.399 --> 0:13:52.359 having a lot of trouble with you, nightmares and just 0:13:52.479 --> 0:13:56.719 behavioral stuff, whereas my old to and my older too, 0:13:56.759 --> 0:14:01.799 and you'rerodivergent, and so that had its own host of things. 0:14:02.439 --> 0:14:03.959 Did they process it differently? 0:14:04.719 --> 0:14:04.959 Yeap? 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:07.399 How could you like? In what way? 0:14:07.639 --> 0:14:07.759 Well? 0:14:07.799 --> 0:14:09.999 Even between the two of them, my son and my daughter, 0:14:10.599 --> 0:14:14.079 they prosed it, sessed it differently. My son didn't talk 0:14:14.119 --> 0:14:16.759 about it at all. In fact, it's funny when we 0:14:16.839 --> 0:14:20.839 told him, we said, have you got any questions? And 0:14:20.959 --> 0:14:23.319 we told him alone, just because of the word, and 0:14:23.359 --> 0:14:26.999 we told the girls separately, and we went through it 0:14:27.239 --> 0:14:29.479 and he said, if you got any questions, and he said, 0:14:29.839 --> 0:14:31.119 where will the dog be living? 0:14:31.439 --> 0:14:36.799 Actually a very good question, yes, And so where does 0:14:36.799 --> 0:14:37.599 the dog we live? 0:14:38.119 --> 0:14:40.599 We have a divorced dog who shared, We share custody, 0:14:40.639 --> 0:14:42.839 so the dog goes with the kids, which was something 0:14:42.879 --> 0:14:47.599 that they wanted and it has worked really well. The 0:14:47.879 --> 0:14:50.119 other thing that worked well in the early days is 0:14:50.159 --> 0:14:52.519 that we did birds nest parenting. 0:14:53.639 --> 0:14:56.799 The Swedish is that the Swedish model the Danish something 0:14:57.559 --> 0:15:03.759 everything good comes from. 0:15:04.599 --> 0:15:06.519 So because we had the family home, as a lot 0:15:06.519 --> 0:15:08.639 of people do, it was going to take time to sell. 0:15:09.159 --> 0:15:12.879 So we got a little apartment not far away and 0:15:12.919 --> 0:15:15.439 we would do week on and week off. One of 0:15:15.519 --> 0:15:18.439 us would would leave and go to the apartment and 0:15:18.479 --> 0:15:20.399 the other one would stay in the house with So 0:15:20.399 --> 0:15:22.919 the idea is that children are not They stayed throut 0:15:23.439 --> 0:15:26.999 ya right, and that you know, looking back, that was 0:15:27.559 --> 0:15:31.159 horrible for us or horrible for me, It was amazing 0:15:31.199 --> 0:15:33.359 for the kids. And I would do it again for 0:15:33.399 --> 0:15:33.879 the kids. 0:15:33.959 --> 0:15:35.759 And what why was that horrible for you? 0:15:36.279 --> 0:15:43.279 Like just the the packing up of your life every. 0:15:42.119 --> 0:15:44.679 Friday, which is normally what the kids have to do. 0:15:44.839 --> 0:15:47.239 Yes, and that's what I was going to say. It 0:15:47.359 --> 0:15:51.319 really gave me such and that's one of the best 0:15:51.319 --> 0:15:53.599 things from it, such an understanding of what they have 0:15:53.719 --> 0:15:56.039 to go through, and we delayed that by a year 0:15:56.159 --> 0:15:59.239 by by us doing it. It's made me so much 0:15:59.319 --> 0:16:02.399 more sympathetic, so much more likely to you know, if 0:16:02.399 --> 0:16:05.879 they've forgotten their something will be in the car, you know, 0:16:06.079 --> 0:16:09.559 driving it off to school, which you know how it feels. Yeah, Hey, 0:16:09.599 --> 0:16:12.199 who was it harder for do you think in that 0:16:12.719 --> 0:16:17.239 nesting bird nesting time. Who was more adaptable with that? 0:16:17.399 --> 0:16:20.559 Obviously it was hard for you. How was Christian, your 0:16:20.639 --> 0:16:25.439 husband with it? I also also I think not great. 0:16:25.879 --> 0:16:28.079 It's a strange thing as well because the apartment that 0:16:28.119 --> 0:16:29.959 we had was very much like an airbn but it 0:16:29.959 --> 0:16:31.039 didn't feel like home. 0:16:31.239 --> 0:16:34.239 No, and because it didn't really belong to either of you. 0:16:34.279 --> 0:16:34.479 No. 0:16:34.759 --> 0:16:35.159 Yes. 0:16:35.319 --> 0:16:38.119 And it's also I have to say, it's a privilege 0:16:38.159 --> 0:16:40.239 to be able to afford to have it, and it 0:16:40.279 --> 0:16:42.639 was a small apartment, but not everyone has the ability 0:16:42.639 --> 0:16:43.559 to know that's. 0:16:43.439 --> 0:16:46.319 Right to do that. The other thing about divorce divorce 0:16:46.399 --> 0:16:47.759 is expenses. 0:16:47.319 --> 0:16:51.799 Expensive, and there's an uncertain period which is just really difficult, 0:16:52.319 --> 0:16:58.119 and sharing space with that person is so difficult and 0:16:59.119 --> 0:17:00.639 I found that really really hard. 0:17:01.239 --> 0:17:04.239 It's almost like, in a way that when you're navigating 0:17:04.239 --> 0:17:07.719 the divorce course with someone and there are children involved, 0:17:07.759 --> 0:17:11.719 so you have to be very mindful of that that 0:17:11.839 --> 0:17:16.719 in a way you have to work together so intensely. 0:17:17.479 --> 0:17:19.359 Do you at some point think why are we getting 0:17:19.399 --> 0:17:22.759 divorced if we can actually manage a divorce. 0:17:24.319 --> 0:17:28.359 Look, I think the thing that happened with us, which 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.919 I see happening with so many people, is that you start. 0:17:31.959 --> 0:17:37.039 I started off with a desire to do everything perfectly, 0:17:37.159 --> 0:17:39.279 you know, this thing of okay, this our life's going 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.919 to change, the children's life is going to change. I 0:17:41.959 --> 0:17:46.919 read all the books you know on children, and I 0:17:47.039 --> 0:17:51.559 quickly realized that that wasn't going to work. That we 0:17:51.559 --> 0:17:54.039 weren't going to be working together like that, Christian and 0:17:54.079 --> 0:17:58.839 I and that took some adjusting. And it's actually the 0:17:58.919 --> 0:18:01.759 thing that when I look back, I wish I had 0:18:01.799 --> 0:18:06.199 realized earlier that we're not married anymore, and so we 0:18:06.239 --> 0:18:08.599 don't necessarily we're not going to be on the same 0:18:08.639 --> 0:18:13.519 page always. In an ideal world, co parenting is wonderful. 0:18:14.159 --> 0:18:17.159 I now have a lot of divorced friend I've sought 0:18:17.199 --> 0:18:20.879 out divorced people because I'm so traumatized. I've got a 0:18:20.919 --> 0:18:26.439 divorced group of women that we call ourselves the Golden Girls, 0:18:25.439 --> 0:18:29.999 and we share information. And in every case, even when 0:18:30.039 --> 0:18:32.879 they've come to the other side and now can co parent, 0:18:33.319 --> 0:18:35.959 there's a part in the middle that we call the 0:18:35.999 --> 0:18:38.479 mean part. And it helped me to call it that 0:18:38.559 --> 0:18:42.119 because it was a part and something that had a 0:18:42.159 --> 0:18:44.759 beginning and an end, and it wasn't personal, and it 0:18:44.879 --> 0:18:47.919 wasn't you know. And I think every divorce has a 0:18:47.919 --> 0:18:48.359 mean part. 0:18:48.399 --> 0:18:51.759 I agree, and with girlfriends in mine even I ended 0:18:51.799 --> 0:18:54.599 a relationship after nine years and we weren't married, but 0:18:54.679 --> 0:19:01.239 we were embedded. And particularly in my experience, the mean 0:19:01.319 --> 0:19:04.399 part often comes around money, yep. And it doesn't matter 0:19:04.399 --> 0:19:07.719 if you're breaking up with the nicest guy in the world. 0:19:08.239 --> 0:19:12.519 There's something about money suddenly that really brings out that. 0:19:13.679 --> 0:19:15.639 But it's not even this is my thing because I 0:19:15.679 --> 0:19:19.039 think about these things a lot. I think it is security, 0:19:19.639 --> 0:19:22.519 you know, at which money represents a lot of security. 0:19:22.759 --> 0:19:25.879 I think it's supurity edom. Yeah, and fear, you know, 0:19:26.279 --> 0:19:29.599 you don't know, and you go from being even if 0:19:29.599 --> 0:19:33.239 you have plenty of money, you're suddenly half You've got 0:19:33.239 --> 0:19:36.479 half as much or whatever that looks like. And that's scary. 0:19:36.759 --> 0:19:38.839 And if you're you know, I'm in my mid forties 0:19:39.279 --> 0:19:43.919 Christians fifty, and so that is a very real fear 0:19:43.959 --> 0:19:46.359 all of a sudden, you know, Am I prepared for 0:19:46.679 --> 0:19:48.159 retirement or am I? Yeah? 0:19:48.319 --> 0:19:48.599 You know? 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:50.959 And I was in the really lucky position that I've 0:19:50.959 --> 0:19:54.359 never stepped out of work. I earn a good income. 0:19:55.199 --> 0:19:58.039 Best seller every year since twenty fifteen. 0:19:58.319 --> 0:20:00.479 Which you know, I mean that sounds wonderful. It's still 0:20:00.599 --> 0:20:02.799 you know, you look at the numbers and I've got 0:20:02.839 --> 0:20:08.799 three kids, cours and you go. But I definitely, I 0:20:08.919 --> 0:20:13.759 definitely was happy to you know, to keep things nice. 0:20:13.799 --> 0:20:17.199 I was like, yep, you know, I wasn't fighting. But 0:20:17.239 --> 0:20:20.799 I also think that you can do everything right and 0:20:20.839 --> 0:20:21.719 it can still be. 0:20:21.719 --> 0:20:24.959 Hard, of course, and maybe it has to be. Maybe 0:20:24.959 --> 0:20:31.359 it does maybe to you know, cleave apart what God 0:20:31.399 --> 0:20:33.999 put together, do you know what I mean? Or whatever 0:20:34.039 --> 0:20:38.199 the saying is, maybe it has to have that component 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:38.879 to it. 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.599 Look, I mean, I'm sure there are people who've got 0:20:41.639 --> 0:20:44.999 some whimsical, wonderful divorce, but then you know, why are 0:20:44.999 --> 0:20:45.959 they getting divorced? 0:20:46.239 --> 0:20:49.559 Are there any in your extended group of girlfriends? 0:20:49.679 --> 0:20:52.599 Now there's a few, you know, sort of five years 0:20:52.639 --> 0:20:56.119 plus down the track that now are working well together. Right. 0:20:56.679 --> 0:20:59.759 I had to and look, I actually this was the 0:20:59.759 --> 0:21:01.999 best thing I ever did. I had to accept that 0:21:02.599 --> 0:21:04.439 I was in charge of what happened in my house 0:21:05.079 --> 0:21:07.599 and Christian was in charge of what happened in his house. 0:21:08.239 --> 0:21:12.799 And it's the most unnatural thing when you are a parent, 0:21:13.559 --> 0:21:15.639 even to you know, not have your kids with you 0:21:15.679 --> 0:21:20.399 half the time. But to let go of things that 0:21:21.959 --> 0:21:24.079 are really important in your life, like this is what 0:21:24.159 --> 0:21:26.079 time they go to bed. Things you're used to having 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.159 control over this, This is what they eat, this is 0:21:29.239 --> 0:21:32.919 they shower. There are so many things that you have 0:21:33.039 --> 0:21:37.079 to that kind of stuff, bedtime, showering, whatever. I felt 0:21:37.159 --> 0:21:41.239 so much better when I stopped, and you know, you 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:44.719 keep it to the important things, and there weren't any 0:21:44.759 --> 0:21:47.599 of those, you know, like they were alive and looked 0:21:47.639 --> 0:21:53.479 after well by their dad. And suddenly I unclenched, you know, 0:21:53.719 --> 0:21:58.599 And that too, is a really important thing to sort 0:21:58.639 --> 0:22:00.719 of letting go of the marriage that you do kind 0:22:00.759 --> 0:22:03.959 of have to understand that when you're married you work 0:22:03.999 --> 0:22:08.399 together as a team. Of course you should, and now 0:22:08.439 --> 0:22:11.039 I think we're much better at teamwork. But that was 0:22:11.079 --> 0:22:13.319 a bit of a process too, of just going well, 0:22:14.199 --> 0:22:18.039 you know, when not controlling. You know, we can't control 0:22:18.079 --> 0:22:21.719 each other anymore. Maybe I look a lot too at 0:22:21.759 --> 0:22:25.359 my part. You know, I don't like that idea that 0:22:27.519 --> 0:22:31.879 you know, he's a narcissist, she's crazy. Everyone thinks their 0:22:31.999 --> 0:22:34.239 X is crazy, you're a narcissist. I don't think that. 0:22:34.839 --> 0:22:37.599 I see he does. He thinks I'm crazy. 0:22:38.799 --> 0:22:39.399 I think that. 0:22:40.679 --> 0:22:46.399 I think that both of us made mistakes, and especially 0:22:46.439 --> 0:22:48.599 in the early days, I was much more interested in 0:22:48.639 --> 0:22:52.399 finding out what I what my part was, because that's 0:22:52.439 --> 0:22:54.919 the only part I comes back to control. I can't 0:22:54.959 --> 0:22:58.479 control why he's doing stuff that I don't agree with 0:22:58.559 --> 0:23:01.919 or why, and it's not my business anymore, only in 0:23:01.959 --> 0:23:04.479 so far as it affects my children. My role is 0:23:04.639 --> 0:23:09.399 to look at me, to heal and to hopefully not 0:23:10.559 --> 0:23:14.279 bring that kind of those difficulties into my life with 0:23:14.319 --> 0:23:14.839 my children. 0:23:19.279 --> 0:23:24.239 After the break Sally unpacks the part she played in 0:23:24.279 --> 0:23:31.319 the breakdown of her marriage. What do you think the 0:23:31.439 --> 0:23:32.759 role was that you played. 0:23:34.079 --> 0:23:41.559 I think that the let me step back. I always 0:23:41.599 --> 0:23:45.679 wanted to be married, you know, I remember that from 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:48.279 a youngish age. 0:23:48.479 --> 0:23:49.959 Oh that's interesting that. 0:23:50.319 --> 0:23:55.679 Yeah. I liked the idea of having a partner. My 0:23:55.719 --> 0:23:57.559 brother's twins. I wonder if that had. 0:23:57.439 --> 0:24:01.439 Something to do with it younger or older older brothers and. 0:24:03.319 --> 0:24:05.759 Mum said, when we were little, I used to say, 0:24:05.759 --> 0:24:09.839 where's my other one? You know, like there was something missing. 0:24:10.319 --> 0:24:13.079 And I don't know, like maybe I'm reading too deeply 0:24:13.119 --> 0:24:15.399 into it, but I loved the idea of having a 0:24:15.439 --> 0:24:18.319 partner for life. I mean, come back to it. But 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:20.639 I have so many partners for life in my girlfriends, 0:24:20.679 --> 0:24:22.919 and that's the sort of full circle that I've come to. 0:24:23.159 --> 0:24:26.279 But I was looking for that, and I had an 0:24:26.319 --> 0:24:28.039 idea of what my life was going to look like, 0:24:28.599 --> 0:24:30.319 and it was going to be a partner, it was 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:34.279 going to be kids, you know, maybe some travel, career 0:24:34.319 --> 0:24:37.039 for me, career, you know. I had those kind of 0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:42.559 fairly maybe normalish, you know, traditional ideas. And I do 0:24:42.719 --> 0:24:47.559 wonder now if I was really holding on to something 0:24:48.199 --> 0:24:51.959 idyllic that maybe couldn't match up to what real life 0:24:51.999 --> 0:24:56.559 looked like. And when things did get tough, which they did, 0:24:57.399 --> 0:24:59.439 you know, several times through the marriage, as they always do, 0:24:59.759 --> 0:25:05.079 I found that really difficult. I found the I just 0:25:05.159 --> 0:25:08.599 didn't understand why it wasn't looking like the picture in 0:25:08.679 --> 0:25:14.359 my mind of what it should be like. And disagreements 0:25:14.399 --> 0:25:17.319 I found really hard. I wouldn't think, oh, we're disagreeing 0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:20.799 about this. I would think, oh, my god, a relationship. 0:25:20.839 --> 0:25:21.959 I've married the wrong person. 0:25:21.999 --> 0:25:22.799 This is terrible. 0:25:24.239 --> 0:25:27.559 I really see that now, and I'm in another relationship now, 0:25:27.719 --> 0:25:32.079 and that's something that I've really changed. And I see 0:25:32.439 --> 0:25:37.639 how communication clear communication. And also I think keeping the 0:25:37.639 --> 0:25:41.119 peace was something that was really important to me because 0:25:41.159 --> 0:25:43.879 I wanted I wanted harmony and happiness. And I think 0:25:43.919 --> 0:25:46.999 my mum was also a real peacekeeper in our family. 0:25:47.079 --> 0:25:50.159 Which is an interesting thing because a peacekeepers beautiful thing, 0:25:50.999 --> 0:25:52.159 but a peacekeeper can. 0:25:52.039 --> 0:25:54.879 Also be you can breed resentment. 0:25:54.999 --> 0:25:59.399 Yeah, that's right, because you're subjugating every natural instinct Ye 0:25:59.639 --> 0:26:03.959 to just preserve this piece on behalf of who. 0:26:03.879 --> 0:26:07.559 Of course, yeah, and it was it was often, you know, 0:26:07.799 --> 0:26:10.999 I was holding things in that should have come out. 0:26:11.319 --> 0:26:15.439 I think my career played a role. And again I 0:26:15.479 --> 0:26:19.439 don't think it's as simplistic as saying, and a lot 0:26:19.439 --> 0:26:22.279 of people will say, do you think that men can't 0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:27.199 handle a woman's success or versions of that, and I 0:26:27.239 --> 0:26:30.799 always think, I don't know if it's that simple, as 0:26:30.879 --> 0:26:34.599 simple as that. I know Christian was quite supportive of 0:26:34.679 --> 0:26:41.639 me doing well and wanted that It's maybe to do 0:26:41.759 --> 0:26:48.359 with purpose and drive. I think that then, you know, 0:26:48.399 --> 0:26:50.919 I was at home with the kids early in our relationship, 0:26:50.959 --> 0:26:52.679 and I was writing as well. 0:26:52.399 --> 0:26:54.639 And then you swapped and he was. 0:26:55.679 --> 0:26:57.719 He was the state home parent, right, which. 0:26:57.559 --> 0:27:01.479 My husband also was for a long time. Right. So 0:27:01.519 --> 0:27:07.079 I'm very curious about this dynamic the interesting one. Firstly, 0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:11.159 there's the external. To us, it made sense and at 0:27:11.159 --> 0:27:14.559 the time I was doing breakfast radio and it made 0:27:14.639 --> 0:27:19.799 sense for us rather than outsourcing to someone. But there 0:27:19.879 --> 0:27:24.439 is something about it externally the world is do you 0:27:24.519 --> 0:27:25.839 do do other? 0:27:25.959 --> 0:27:26.199 Mean? 0:27:26.719 --> 0:27:29.839 Even? Yeah, Yeah, it's weird, isn't it. It is so 0:27:29.919 --> 0:27:32.999 it's a strange thing. It takes an exceptional man to 0:27:33.679 --> 0:27:38.239 take on that role. Yeah. In my case, my husband, 0:27:38.319 --> 0:27:42.879 at some point we could tell he was done with it. Yeah, 0:27:43.079 --> 0:27:46.959 he was just done with it, I mean fair enough. Yes, 0:27:47.199 --> 0:27:51.479 And we had four under six, and that was a lot. 0:27:51.919 --> 0:27:55.719 Yeah. I mean, look, I and we both because I 0:27:56.079 --> 0:27:59.679 was not home. I was working. We went from Christian 0:27:59.719 --> 0:28:01.919 had the main job as the earner when we were 0:28:01.919 --> 0:28:02.599 first together. 0:28:02.879 --> 0:28:06.239 Right, what was his career, right, you know? 0:28:06.279 --> 0:28:08.159 And he was very good at that successful. We went 0:28:08.239 --> 0:28:12.559 moved over to Canada together because he was sent over there, 0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:16.399 and then we had the babies, and then I was 0:28:16.439 --> 0:28:19.239 at home with them, and then I was also writing, 0:28:19.319 --> 0:28:21.559 and then we were both working and we had the 0:28:21.679 --> 0:28:25.279 kids in a combination of childcare. I had some flexibility. 0:28:26.159 --> 0:28:28.519 I found it difficult. I still felt like I was 0:28:28.519 --> 0:28:32.879 carrying the mental load though, and together with working, I 0:28:33.039 --> 0:28:35.319 was burnt out, so also not my best. 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:36.279 Did you know you were? 0:28:37.239 --> 0:28:37.759 No? 0:28:37.759 --> 0:28:39.839 No, you don't know at the time, do you well? 0:28:39.839 --> 0:28:42.399 The way I knew something. I've got this memory of 0:28:42.519 --> 0:28:46.479 being on tour in America and. 0:28:46.599 --> 0:28:47.519 Which book was this? 0:28:47.839 --> 0:28:49.879 Which give me an era? 0:28:50.279 --> 0:28:51.279 I think it worth the era. 0:28:51.399 --> 0:28:53.719 I think it was the Soul Mage right, okay, because 0:28:53.719 --> 0:28:56.039 it was right after Mum and Mia came out with 0:28:56.079 --> 0:29:00.279 their podcast But are you happy that Claire Stevens was hosting? 0:29:01.119 --> 0:29:03.159 And I saw it and I thought, I looked at 0:29:03.199 --> 0:29:05.479 it on my phone. I would listen to all the 0:29:05.479 --> 0:29:07.799 Australian podcasts while I was there, just to keep on top, 0:29:08.319 --> 0:29:11.199 and I thought no. When it said but are you happy, 0:29:11.239 --> 0:29:15.079 I thought nuh, And it just dropped in yeah. And 0:29:15.119 --> 0:29:17.279 again it wasn't that moment. There was a series of 0:29:17.319 --> 0:29:19.239 moments and things that happened that led to it. But 0:29:19.559 --> 0:29:23.599 that was the first time I thought, huh, because objectively 0:29:24.159 --> 0:29:28.919 everything was going so well, you know, and my career 0:29:29.039 --> 0:29:35.199 was was, you know, wonderful, and my kids and the 0:29:35.319 --> 0:29:37.959 interesting thing to jump forward a little bit is that 0:29:39.399 --> 0:29:43.519 once my marriage ended and I got through, you know, 0:29:43.639 --> 0:29:45.959 the kind of early part of the pain of that. 0:29:46.719 --> 0:29:49.519 One thing that I guess I felt quite good about 0:29:49.639 --> 0:29:54.759 was that my life was actually everything in my life 0:29:54.799 --> 0:29:57.559 was wonderful. I've got this beautiful group of girlfriends that 0:29:57.599 --> 0:29:58.919 we've been friends since we were ten. 0:29:59.999 --> 0:30:04.159 This is separate to the Golden Girls. Some crossover there 0:30:04.199 --> 0:30:04.439 is some. 0:30:05.919 --> 0:30:08.119 In fact, because as soon as I became divorced, I 0:30:08.119 --> 0:30:11.239 didn't really know anyone who was divorced, and so I 0:30:11.279 --> 0:30:14.359 sought out, Yeah, it is, isn't it. And that's I 0:30:14.399 --> 0:30:16.959 guess maybe part of what was it a part of 0:30:16.999 --> 0:30:18.999 what made it hard for me. I don't know one element. 0:30:20.119 --> 0:30:22.479 One of the Golden Girls was my friend's older sister, 0:30:23.319 --> 0:30:27.759 and so I nabbed her, and then a friend of hers, 0:30:28.079 --> 0:30:30.599 and then one friend of mine, and then there was 0:30:30.639 --> 0:30:33.239 a girl I went to school with who has heard 0:30:33.279 --> 0:30:35.799 she got divorced. And I hadn't spoken to her for 0:30:36.039 --> 0:30:37.999 years and years and years, And as soon as I 0:30:38.039 --> 0:30:40.559 heard she got divorced, I messaged her and said, I 0:30:40.639 --> 0:30:43.519 just wanted to say that if you're not okay, I 0:30:43.519 --> 0:30:46.079 know we haven't spoken and this might be really presumptuous, 0:30:46.199 --> 0:30:47.759 I'm happy to come and talk to you. We can 0:30:47.799 --> 0:30:51.599 have a coffee. I just felt like I I wanted 0:30:51.639 --> 0:30:56.479 to acknowledge since I'd gone through it, how awful it was. 0:30:57.239 --> 0:31:00.359 And so together we were started The Golden which is 0:31:00.439 --> 0:31:05.759 mostly now memes about being a single parent, which is 0:31:05.799 --> 0:31:08.479 so funny, and sometimes it's a how do I deal 0:31:08.519 --> 0:31:10.639 with this? To do with the children, or how do 0:31:10.719 --> 0:31:13.999 I deal with We developed something which we call the 0:31:14.039 --> 0:31:16.839 ship box from The Golden Girls, and the ship box 0:31:17.359 --> 0:31:22.279 is an actual box. They physical box that the kids 0:31:22.319 --> 0:31:26.559 put their shit in, not their like their stuff that 0:31:26.719 --> 0:31:28.879 goes to their dad's house. I was like, how do 0:31:28.959 --> 0:31:31.799 you and someone said, we have a ship box, and 0:31:31.839 --> 0:31:34.599 so they put it. It's just a box that goes 0:31:34.639 --> 0:31:36.959 inside the door. And the day that they're going to 0:31:37.039 --> 0:31:39.039 their dad's house, you say to the kids, put your 0:31:39.039 --> 0:31:41.639 stuff in the ship box, and they put it in, 0:31:41.679 --> 0:31:42.879 and then that gets taken to. 0:31:42.839 --> 0:31:44.599 Their dumb we've forgotten the ship. 0:31:45.399 --> 0:31:46.959 And they'll say, I'll say, where's your shoes? 0:31:46.999 --> 0:31:50.039 It's they're in the shipbox. How big is the ship 0:31:50.039 --> 0:31:51.679 box like. 0:31:51.599 --> 0:31:56.999 A laundry basket. It's so those kind of wondrous things 0:31:57.039 --> 0:32:01.239 basic come out of The Golden Girls. But to link back, 0:32:01.279 --> 0:32:04.679 I guess I realized, Okay, my marriage has ended but 0:32:04.719 --> 0:32:07.399 I've got these girlfriends who really had stepped up for 0:32:07.479 --> 0:32:09.639 me in a way that you know, my first night 0:32:10.359 --> 0:32:12.679 in the apartment after we broke up, they all came 0:32:12.719 --> 0:32:16.799 and slept over. You know. One of them arrived with 0:32:17.599 --> 0:32:20.599 a box of tools. Tools. 0:32:20.959 --> 0:32:25.079 You know, they just used the tools to do it. 0:32:25.119 --> 0:32:25.319 Is a. 0:32:27.039 --> 0:32:30.759 Girlfriends of mine who got drilled. And then there comes 0:32:30.759 --> 0:32:32.559 a certain sort of pride in I can. 0:32:32.439 --> 0:32:33.639 Fix the rod. 0:32:33.839 --> 0:32:36.559 Yep, I know, and it is very satisfying. 0:32:37.079 --> 0:32:40.439 It's extraordinary the things that you can do that you 0:32:40.479 --> 0:32:41.879 just didn't do if you lived. 0:32:41.639 --> 0:32:46.759 In a traditional sort of compartmentalization of what needs to 0:32:46.759 --> 0:32:47.319 be done in it. 0:32:47.439 --> 0:32:50.279 In the family life, I can clean I have a 0:32:50.279 --> 0:32:52.039 pool at the house that I'm renting at the moment, 0:32:52.199 --> 0:32:54.679 I can clean the pool. I always thought that pools 0:32:54.759 --> 0:32:58.159 were some like foreign thing that only men could understand. 0:32:58.839 --> 0:33:03.359 And you know, because they've got chemicals, and it's. 0:33:03.279 --> 0:33:05.879 Always a pool boy, the poor boy. It's always a 0:33:05.879 --> 0:33:06.239 poor boy. 0:33:06.319 --> 0:33:10.079 So afford a poor boy. Maybe one day fingers crossed, 0:33:10.199 --> 0:33:10.759 you've got one. 0:33:10.919 --> 0:33:13.959 Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I think you said 0:33:14.759 --> 0:33:16.799 that marriage is maybe not good for women. 0:33:18.439 --> 0:33:24.879 Yeah, oh look, this has been a two year deep 0:33:24.959 --> 0:33:25.759 dive into my. 0:33:25.719 --> 0:33:30.639 Two years is not long, though you've really and compressed 0:33:30.679 --> 0:33:33.679 it or had experienced a lot in that two years. 0:33:34.119 --> 0:33:36.199 Yeah, And like I say, I don't think I'm over 0:33:36.239 --> 0:33:39.479 it and over it's a funny thing. I am in 0:33:39.519 --> 0:33:42.159 a new relationship and I'm very happy. It's not that 0:33:42.199 --> 0:33:46.679 I'm not over him. I'm I'm happy. I feel like 0:33:46.999 --> 0:33:51.039 I you know, I have a great life. I have 0:33:51.599 --> 0:33:53.759 my career, I have my girlfriends, I have my family, 0:33:53.799 --> 0:34:00.159 I have my children. Life is so wonderful. I have 0:34:00.239 --> 0:34:02.359 the scars, and I do feel like I lost a 0:34:02.399 --> 0:34:08.599 layer of skin. You know, everything was raw, everything I 0:34:08.639 --> 0:34:13.839 felt things is more beautiful and sadder and so my 0:34:14.839 --> 0:34:18.679 you know, is marriage good for women? I've thought about 0:34:18.679 --> 0:34:22.959 that a lot. And I also looked around in the 0:34:22.999 --> 0:34:27.199 early days at relationships and thought whose marriage would I want, 0:34:27.799 --> 0:34:30.359 you know, looking at my friends, looking at my parents, 0:34:30.359 --> 0:34:33.559 looking at and I did find some there were some 0:34:33.639 --> 0:34:37.279 relationships that I thought I wanted. They weren't the majority, 0:34:37.559 --> 0:34:41.079 like I had to seek them out. Acknowledging that you 0:34:41.119 --> 0:34:43.559 never know what truly is going on in someone else's 0:34:43.599 --> 0:34:43.999 real you know. 0:34:44.079 --> 0:34:46.559 That reminds me of a girlfriend of mine who had 0:34:46.599 --> 0:34:50.959 a brutal divorce. She said one of the worst things 0:34:51.399 --> 0:34:55.559 that she experienced was that when friends would hear she 0:34:55.639 --> 0:34:58.719 was getting divorced, they were like, they started talking about 0:34:58.759 --> 0:35:01.719 how much they hated their husbands, and she said it 0:35:01.799 --> 0:35:04.479 was just like suddenly they felt like they had a 0:35:04.679 --> 0:35:07.759 outleaish to say yeah, permission. And she said at that 0:35:07.959 --> 0:35:11.399 period it was the worst thing because what she actually 0:35:11.439 --> 0:35:17.879 needed was to believe in romantic love yeah, not to 0:35:18.239 --> 0:35:22.079 have everyone go I wish I was you. And as 0:35:22.079 --> 0:35:24.999 she said, also she hadn't done anything magical. She was 0:35:25.039 --> 0:35:30.319 going through something really difficult. Yeah, And so they also 0:35:30.359 --> 0:35:32.399 had the capacity too. She's like, why are you telling 0:35:32.439 --> 0:35:35.199 me this and not addressing it with the person that 0:35:36.319 --> 0:35:39.639 you're so happy to slag off to me? Yeah. 0:35:40.199 --> 0:35:42.359 Well, that's the thing. I think. I see that a lot. 0:35:42.639 --> 0:35:46.399 I see a lot of unhappy women in relationships and 0:35:46.519 --> 0:35:49.039 presumably unhappy men. It's just that I spend more time 0:35:49.039 --> 0:35:55.759 with women, and I do wonder if this whole idea 0:35:55.879 --> 0:35:59.639 of marriage, like it makes me think, what in an 0:35:59.639 --> 0:36:04.159 ideal world, if you're unhappy, you could move on without 0:36:04.199 --> 0:36:07.119 this whole But you look at it and think, oh, 0:36:07.239 --> 0:36:10.719 I can't. I mean in that time where I was 0:36:10.759 --> 0:36:12.719 burnt out and everything and I knew and there were 0:36:12.759 --> 0:36:16.399 a few things that made me go, Okay, this, this 0:36:16.439 --> 0:36:19.959 is it, this is the end for you or yeah, 0:36:19.279 --> 0:36:24.359 for the relationship that I couldn't look away anymore. But 0:36:24.559 --> 0:36:29.279 I think I really understand why if you're not pushed 0:36:29.279 --> 0:36:31.599 to that point, why you might go, oh, it's too 0:36:31.679 --> 0:36:36.879 I can't go through that because it's so hard. There 0:36:36.959 --> 0:36:40.399 is happiness on the other side, but there's also there's 0:36:40.439 --> 0:36:41.759 also you are changed. 0:36:42.399 --> 0:36:47.119 I'm changed in the nature of a relationship though a 0:36:47.119 --> 0:36:50.599 lot a long term. How long were you married? Sixteen 0:36:50.719 --> 0:36:57.119 sixteen years to get to it, I'm twenty one, twenty congratulations. 0:36:57.639 --> 0:37:00.959 Sometimes you know, well sometimes for everyone. 0:37:01.119 --> 0:37:05.919 Yeah, correct. So part of what I imagine is one 0:37:05.959 --> 0:37:08.679 of the things that you have to work out for 0:37:08.719 --> 0:37:11.919 yourself is in any long term relationship, it will have 0:37:11.999 --> 0:37:15.799 peaks and it will have ebbs, And so you know 0:37:17.119 --> 0:37:20.999 that you've worked through ebbs before, how do you know 0:37:21.079 --> 0:37:23.919 that it's not an ebb and that it's something that 0:37:23.959 --> 0:37:28.439 you can't that you're not going to then be able 0:37:28.479 --> 0:37:30.799 to surf the next wave onto the beach with. 0:37:32.519 --> 0:37:35.959 It's when they are not interested in working with you. 0:37:37.479 --> 0:37:41.159 To fix it and for whatever reason. 0:37:40.919 --> 0:37:43.439 Whatever reason, and when you feel like you have tried 0:37:43.519 --> 0:37:48.319 everything in your power and it's accept this the way 0:37:48.359 --> 0:37:54.079 that it is, or try something else, and it's your 0:37:54.159 --> 0:37:57.959 last alternative, That's what it was for me. Every relationship 0:37:58.039 --> 0:38:00.719 is different and they have different reasons. It might be 0:38:01.559 --> 0:38:02.159 I don't know. 0:38:02.199 --> 0:38:05.719 But the feelings are the same, are they? The circumstances 0:38:05.799 --> 0:38:10.319 might be. Whoever said some writer, one of those one 0:38:10.319 --> 0:38:14.759 of those who was it that said every happy family 0:38:14.839 --> 0:38:20.199 resembles each other, but every unhappy family is uniquely unhappy? 0:38:20.479 --> 0:38:25.479 Who was that? Someone? Someone? Clear? But I do often 0:38:25.519 --> 0:38:29.439 think about that because there's a there's just a patainer 0:38:29.559 --> 0:38:33.079 of happiness that you know, you might live in different 0:38:33.079 --> 0:38:37.799 circumstances or whatever, But happy is happy. Yeah, but unhappiness 0:38:38.559 --> 0:38:42.559 has so many flavors and textures, each more gruesome than 0:38:42.599 --> 0:38:43.199 the last. 0:38:43.879 --> 0:38:50.999 Yeah they do. And yeah, look, it's funny because I 0:38:51.119 --> 0:38:55.359 came out of that experience that the divorce and I 0:38:55.799 --> 0:38:58.279 and maybe this makes me very basic, and maybe everyone 0:38:58.319 --> 0:39:00.999 does this, but I certainly wasn't thinking that I was 0:39:01.039 --> 0:39:01.879 going to reap partner. 0:39:02.679 --> 0:39:06.079 I you were like, I'm not doing that again, And. 0:39:06.119 --> 0:39:09.399 Even without not from a bitter place. It was almost 0:39:09.479 --> 0:39:13.239 the opposite. It was from a place of I'm so 0:39:13.439 --> 0:39:16.519 content and I heard I've heard a lot of women 0:39:16.559 --> 0:39:19.559 say that they have been lonely after they've got divorced 0:39:19.639 --> 0:39:22.279 or they've had these certain difficulties. I didn't feel that 0:39:22.479 --> 0:39:27.199 I was never lonely. I was surrounded by love. I mean, 0:39:27.399 --> 0:39:30.239 which is just so bet And it's funny. I would 0:39:30.279 --> 0:39:32.239 say I was lucky, And I remember one of my 0:39:32.319 --> 0:39:35.599 friends saying, because I said, I've got an army of support, 0:39:36.399 --> 0:39:39.239 and my friends said to me, You're not lucky. You've 0:39:39.279 --> 0:39:43.519 got an army because you fought in the battalion. You know, 0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:45.959 you fought for us, and where are you for you? 0:39:47.039 --> 0:39:50.439 And I thought that's nice. 0:39:52.359 --> 0:39:57.319 Next, Sally rethinks what love really looks like thanks to 0:39:57.359 --> 0:40:04.239 the women who carried her through heartbreak. I think that 0:40:04.759 --> 0:40:06.919 when a relationship is failing and it's one that you're 0:40:06.919 --> 0:40:10.919 really committed to, you tend to try and put resources 0:40:10.959 --> 0:40:15.519 into it to the exclusion of other relationships. So I 0:40:15.519 --> 0:40:19.639 think sometimes people pop out like a meerkat to a 0:40:19.919 --> 0:40:21.799 very bleak savannah. Yep. 0:40:22.119 --> 0:40:25.479 Yes, And I did have that difficulty, which was to 0:40:25.519 --> 0:40:29.319 do with all of the horrible stuff about ending a relationship, 0:40:29.319 --> 0:40:32.199 but my life outside of that, I thought, well, this 0:40:32.279 --> 0:40:35.959 is good. I actually have got quite a good landscape. 0:40:36.079 --> 0:40:41.839 And I was thinking more and more that why is 0:40:41.959 --> 0:40:46.199 romantic love the pinnacle? I have got these women in 0:40:46.199 --> 0:40:49.199 my life, I mean so many, but particularly the ones 0:40:49.239 --> 0:40:52.439 that I've been friends with since I was ten. They're 0:40:52.439 --> 0:40:55.119 my life partners. They're the ones who have been with 0:40:55.159 --> 0:40:58.599 me before any of us met our partners. They are 0:40:58.599 --> 0:41:01.159 with me after partners. They've been through me with me, 0:41:01.759 --> 0:41:05.079 you know, through birth, and we've all been together. Recently, 0:41:05.239 --> 0:41:09.799 one of those friends, her father died, and I remember 0:41:10.039 --> 0:41:12.639 I went up with her when she did the eulogy 0:41:12.759 --> 0:41:15.359 and we looked back and I saw all of our 0:41:15.399 --> 0:41:18.159 girlfriends were in the front row, and I thought, it's 0:41:18.159 --> 0:41:21.799 something moved me about it. I thought, usually, you know, 0:41:21.879 --> 0:41:24.639 you see the family and the parents and whatever, and no, 0:41:24.799 --> 0:41:27.359 that was us, that was and that made complete sense 0:41:27.399 --> 0:41:27.639 to me. 0:41:28.079 --> 0:41:29.719 Your significant ones. 0:41:29.479 --> 0:41:34.079 They were, We've always been a family. And even if 0:41:34.119 --> 0:41:36.639 there was an is and there now is a romantic 0:41:36.679 --> 0:41:40.719 love again, my life partner partners are those women. 0:41:41.599 --> 0:41:44.519 And are there any men in that number? 0:41:45.119 --> 0:41:46.839 Not in that I have got male friends. 0:41:46.959 --> 0:41:50.599 Yeah, have those relationships change. 0:41:51.719 --> 0:41:55.319 Well, one of my best male friends has been divorced twice. 0:41:55.879 --> 0:41:56.959 Okay, he was in the. 0:41:56.919 --> 0:41:59.039 Golden Girls for a little while, but then he couldn't 0:41:59.039 --> 0:42:01.679 handle it because there were all these memes about how 0:42:01.679 --> 0:42:06.319 we didn't like men. So he was like, I also, 0:42:06.399 --> 0:42:10.679 my brothers wear incredibly closed and they were huge supports 0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:14.599 to me throughout that. I'm not a hater of men 0:42:14.639 --> 0:42:16.039 in any way. I love men. 0:42:16.399 --> 0:42:19.559 No, I'm just always it seems, you know, maybe it's 0:42:19.879 --> 0:42:22.599 our times, or maybe it's been ever thus Really I 0:42:22.599 --> 0:42:29.159 don't know, but there's such a gold mine the female friends. Yeah, 0:42:29.199 --> 0:42:35.599 and it doesn't seem to be the same crossover with me. Yeah, 0:42:35.639 --> 0:42:37.879 I mean, I mean they're nourishing in a different way 0:42:37.959 --> 0:42:40.679 they are, and it's good. I do believe very much 0:42:40.679 --> 0:42:43.239 in yin and yang, and I'm not fully on board 0:42:43.479 --> 0:42:47.439 with women. We're fantastic. We're fantastic, and men are fact, 0:42:47.519 --> 0:42:53.839 which seems to be some kind of very very much, 0:42:53.999 --> 0:42:55.759 very much. And I'm like, when did we start to 0:42:55.799 --> 0:43:00.119 think we were so perfect? It's true, it's not helpful. 0:43:00.679 --> 0:43:03.479 And I, by the way, I do think that about myself. 0:43:04.239 --> 0:43:08.239 That's how I recognize it. What you think you have 0:43:08.279 --> 0:43:10.879 to pull yourself up and go hang on a minute. Yeah, 0:43:10.999 --> 0:43:12.879 why am I always trying to knock the top off 0:43:12.879 --> 0:43:18.159 this scab as though? Yeah, I'm the dermatologist. I'm not 0:43:18.239 --> 0:43:18.919 the dermatolic. 0:43:19.079 --> 0:43:20.999 We're the dermatologists of our own lives. 0:43:20.999 --> 0:43:23.799 Well we are, and it's good for someone healing. 0:43:24.199 --> 0:43:26.279 Someone's got to be healed. The ointment. 0:43:29.679 --> 0:43:30.479 Made me write. 0:43:31.839 --> 0:43:36.079 My thoughts on men are separate from my thoughts about 0:43:36.319 --> 0:43:39.359 romantic love. I think that is what has changed for me, 0:43:40.639 --> 0:43:45.279 as romantic love being the relationship to end all relationships, 0:43:45.639 --> 0:43:48.799 the one who you know you fell out on your paperwork, 0:43:48.839 --> 0:43:52.439 the one who you know when you die. They're the 0:43:52.559 --> 0:43:55.399 chief mourner, you know, all of those things. 0:43:55.759 --> 0:44:01.239 That notebook, yep, the crying in the rain. Romantic love. 0:44:02.839 --> 0:44:05.439 You can have that, right like I've got the beautiful, 0:44:05.519 --> 0:44:09.399 beautiful man that that came out of thinking I was 0:44:09.479 --> 0:44:12.039 never going to meet anyone. I wasn't looking for anyone. 0:44:12.159 --> 0:44:14.519 I was you know, my friends were all pressuring me 0:44:14.559 --> 0:44:18.919 to go on Tinder or bumble or whatever it was. No, 0:44:19.519 --> 0:44:21.959 I don't want, you know, I'm happy. And then I 0:44:22.719 --> 0:44:24.719 met this in real life. 0:44:25.679 --> 0:44:28.359 Now, in real life, because that does not happen now 0:44:28.799 --> 0:44:30.359 not even in novels. 0:44:30.519 --> 0:44:32.599 Yeah, I know. Well, so this is a good story. 0:44:32.639 --> 0:44:39.959 So I actually did have one date before I met Dan, 0:44:39.999 --> 0:44:43.399 who's my partner. I had one date that was from 0:44:43.519 --> 0:44:46.119 whatever the app was. That was when i'd been away 0:44:46.239 --> 0:44:49.319 on with all my girlfriends. We go away to Nusah 0:44:49.319 --> 0:44:51.719 every year and we have a girl's trip, and they 0:44:51.759 --> 0:44:53.799 were it was for them, you know how you married 0:44:53.799 --> 0:44:56.159 friends are just desperate for you know, there's a single 0:44:56.279 --> 0:45:03.039 go on there and there up and I've ben swiping 0:45:03.039 --> 0:45:04.839 the wrong way and I'm looking at some guy called 0:45:04.879 --> 0:45:08.559 Shane with no teeth that I've just you know. And 0:45:08.599 --> 0:45:12.119 I had one date and it actually it went quite well. 0:45:12.159 --> 0:45:13.999 I mean it was not I wasn't looking for relationship, 0:45:13.999 --> 0:45:15.599 but it was. He was a gentleman. It was you know, 0:45:15.639 --> 0:45:16.439 we had a nice. 0:45:16.279 --> 0:45:17.199 Did you do it in NUSA? 0:45:17.559 --> 0:45:19.759 No, they set it up for winter. So I came 0:45:19.799 --> 0:45:23.519 back from NSA the next night, went out a night date. 0:45:24.279 --> 0:45:27.439 It was like six o'clock for a drink. It's all 0:45:27.559 --> 0:45:35.359 changed since our days. Yes, so nervous. He also didn't 0:45:35.399 --> 0:45:37.159 live in Melbourne, which I thought was better because I 0:45:37.199 --> 0:45:39.919 didn't you know, I just wanted to have a nice 0:45:40.159 --> 0:45:42.159 time and I don't know what. I don't think I 0:45:42.199 --> 0:45:47.559 wanted it, Okay, great question. I wore jeans and a 0:45:47.639 --> 0:45:52.159 like nice sparkly ballet flat and a black I was 0:45:52.199 --> 0:45:53.759 wearing a white top and all the girls are like, no, 0:45:53.839 --> 0:45:54.559 you've got to wear. 0:45:54.519 --> 0:45:56.279 It's been a very heavily workshop. 0:45:58.239 --> 0:46:01.839 And I think I had on a leather jacket or 0:46:01.839 --> 0:46:03.919 something like that. I felt very unlike me. 0:46:04.079 --> 0:46:06.519 It wasn't kind of thing, almost like you'd put on 0:46:06.559 --> 0:46:10.239 a costume, yes, which is the Sally goes on a 0:46:10.319 --> 0:46:14.479 first day costures. Yeah, in her forties. Yeah, look, and 0:46:14.519 --> 0:46:14.839 it was. 0:46:14.879 --> 0:46:17.759 He was so lovely. He was really handsome and made 0:46:17.799 --> 0:46:19.999 me feel great. And I went away from it thinking 0:46:20.799 --> 0:46:22.439 that was really nice. I don't know if i'd do 0:46:22.479 --> 0:46:26.919 it again. Right. So then I was in getting my 0:46:26.959 --> 0:46:30.159 boatox and he was in there, and my lady was 0:46:30.159 --> 0:46:32.919 doing her botox and I was telling her about it, 0:46:32.959 --> 0:46:35.239 and you know, they're like hairdresses. She's like, tell me more, 0:46:35.879 --> 0:46:38.839 and then she said, you know what, I've got a 0:46:38.839 --> 0:46:42.199 friend who's been separated recently and he's gorgeous and you 0:46:42.239 --> 0:46:46.159 should meet him. And I was like, oh, I don't know, 0:46:46.839 --> 0:46:48.679 and then she said, can I give him your number, 0:46:48.879 --> 0:46:52.719 and I said all right, and then he messaged me, oh, 0:46:53.359 --> 0:46:56.639 I know. And you know what was funny is that 0:46:57.279 --> 0:47:01.919 he he said, so he lived away, lived in on 0:47:01.999 --> 0:47:05.119 the Gold Coast, but he was from Melbourne, yally, and 0:47:05.679 --> 0:47:07.519 he said, I'm going to be in Melbourne this week. 0:47:07.559 --> 0:47:09.559 Do you want to have dinner? And I said yes? 0:47:09.879 --> 0:47:11.639 And I was thinking, I don't know if I will 0:47:11.759 --> 0:47:14.879 or not, like I was very on the fence. And 0:47:14.919 --> 0:47:17.559 on the day I thought, oh, I don't know if 0:47:17.559 --> 0:47:19.759 I'm going to go, and but I just ad the 0:47:19.839 --> 0:47:23.079 last night I thought, yeah, I'll go. And it's funny. 0:47:23.079 --> 0:47:25.279 I found out later that he'd just flown down for 0:47:25.319 --> 0:47:28.799 the day, like imagine. 0:47:30.839 --> 0:47:34.159 And look it was, he flew down just for the day. 0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:35.559 God love him. 0:47:35.559 --> 0:47:42.919 Oh that's amazing. What was his hunch, Well. 0:47:42.719 --> 0:47:44.959 He said that he had heard about me from this 0:47:44.999 --> 0:47:48.639 friend and he cyberstalked me and thought that I looked nice. 0:47:48.759 --> 0:47:55.799 Yeah right, And it wasn't you know, it wasn't sparks. 0:47:55.839 --> 0:47:58.359 It was just you seem like a really nice person, 0:47:58.439 --> 0:48:00.599 and I really I'd like to get to know you 0:48:00.639 --> 0:48:03.159 more like that really kind of mature and and then 0:48:03.199 --> 0:48:08.119 it grew over I think by date three, I was thinking, yeah, 0:48:08.159 --> 0:48:09.679 this is I'm getting a. 0:48:09.679 --> 0:48:13.119 Bit swept off. How was the geography He's moved back 0:48:13.159 --> 0:48:13.639 to Melbourne? 0:48:13.799 --> 0:48:18.279 Oh okay after how many dates? Well, no, it was 0:48:18.279 --> 0:48:20.799 about nine months and so there was a nice period 0:48:21.159 --> 0:48:24.359 of us going back and forth. But he worked, he 0:48:24.439 --> 0:48:29.999 had worked in Melbourne, so he'd becoming regular anyway. And 0:48:30.159 --> 0:48:33.799 it was lovely and I I'm so happy. I'm so 0:48:33.999 --> 0:48:40.759 different in this relationship. It's amazing what way I am 0:48:40.799 --> 0:48:43.399 the poor thing, because you know, I now I do 0:48:43.479 --> 0:48:45.279 not let one thing go that annoys me. 0:48:45.719 --> 0:48:53.479 Ah right, okay, so the peacekeepers, I just. 0:48:53.479 --> 0:48:55.639 Now to have a chat all the time. Now you 0:48:55.639 --> 0:48:57.879 know that thing that you did, I don't like that, right, 0:48:58.559 --> 0:49:02.079 And I encourage him to do that too, and he's 0:49:02.199 --> 0:49:04.199 so good about like what I love. I think the 0:49:04.239 --> 0:49:08.039 most masculine trait that exists is for you to give 0:49:08.079 --> 0:49:12.839 them feedback and for them to say, oh, okay, ah, 0:49:12.839 --> 0:49:15.039 thank you for telling me that, you know, and not 0:49:15.359 --> 0:49:18.919 being threatened at all or defensive or you know. I 0:49:18.959 --> 0:49:21.599 just think that's so so you're so sure of yourself 0:49:21.599 --> 0:49:25.359 and secure to be able to to take that on 0:49:25.479 --> 0:49:28.839 board and not feel emasculated or just. 0:49:28.799 --> 0:49:30.999 To actually have a curiosity. 0:49:31.079 --> 0:49:33.639 Yes, and I realized that's all I need. I don't 0:49:33.679 --> 0:49:35.959 even need them to immediately change. It's not that they 0:49:35.959 --> 0:49:40.839 won't do it again. It's that they've said, you're giving 0:49:40.999 --> 0:49:42.759 you know, you're telling me what you want, and I 0:49:42.839 --> 0:49:45.679 want to know that you know I'm not. I want 0:49:45.679 --> 0:49:50.559 to know what makes you happy. I want to I 0:49:50.599 --> 0:49:51.759 hear you, I see you. 0:49:52.759 --> 0:49:57.039 I want to work that kind of softens you. Yes. 0:49:57.519 --> 0:50:00.399 All you need, I think, is to know that someone 0:50:01.199 --> 0:50:05.079 wants that for you, that they're in it for you 0:50:05.159 --> 0:50:09.119 as well. And it's not just that that's been really 0:50:09.159 --> 0:50:12.159 healing for me because I am like that, like I 0:50:12.199 --> 0:50:14.039 will I have. I have a lot of faults, but 0:50:14.159 --> 0:50:17.519 I I really if someone says something or if I 0:50:17.519 --> 0:50:20.159 do the wrong thing, I will say I'm so sorry, 0:50:20.799 --> 0:50:24.959 you know mea culpa and I don't feel threatened by that. 0:50:24.999 --> 0:50:28.239 And so when people do get defensive, and that was 0:50:28.279 --> 0:50:30.639 one of the problems in my marriage is that you 0:50:30.679 --> 0:50:35.119 don't get anywhere. You know you you know I'm trying 0:50:35.159 --> 0:50:37.399 to tell you that I feel this way, Well, I 0:50:37.439 --> 0:50:39.119 don't do that, and by the way, it's you know, 0:50:39.879 --> 0:50:41.999 then it goes nowhere and you just park it and 0:50:42.079 --> 0:50:44.559 it continues to simmer. Whereas I feel like we have 0:50:44.719 --> 0:50:49.039 really in the new relationship, we've really got to know 0:50:49.159 --> 0:50:51.519 each other and find our stride and our own rhythm 0:50:51.559 --> 0:50:55.759 together because we do listen and and you know, and 0:50:55.839 --> 0:50:58.639 work together. We want to. 0:50:58.639 --> 0:51:01.399 But you don't live together, No, and you won't. 0:51:01.839 --> 0:51:05.359 I don't think so. Look, I always say I'll never 0:51:05.439 --> 0:51:08.439 do something, and then you know, five minutes later. I 0:51:08.479 --> 0:51:11.959 think what's really important to me now is that I 0:51:12.159 --> 0:51:15.679 have my three kids. I've got my own house. I 0:51:15.759 --> 0:51:18.999 want them to have their house that is just mum's, 0:51:19.119 --> 0:51:22.279 you know, not even it's their house. I don't want 0:51:22.399 --> 0:51:24.519 Mum and Dan's house or you know. I don't know 0:51:24.559 --> 0:51:26.839 what's going to happen at Christian's house. But I want 0:51:26.879 --> 0:51:30.799 them to have a space that's theirs. And they don't 0:51:30.799 --> 0:51:34.079 need any more people. They don't need to be blending 0:51:34.159 --> 0:51:36.919 families or to I just don't want. 0:51:36.719 --> 0:51:40.359 That take on some other emotional load. 0:51:40.679 --> 0:51:44.239 Yeah, I don't want that for them. And so maybe 0:51:44.599 --> 0:51:47.359 there's a time in the future where they've gone and 0:51:47.599 --> 0:51:50.239 who knows. You know, I'm really happy in this. 0:51:50.599 --> 0:51:54.439 How do you think your writings changed now? 0:51:55.359 --> 0:51:57.599 Some writers said once I don't know who it is, obviously, 0:51:57.719 --> 0:52:00.039 we know the sayings. We don't know the writer. But 0:52:00.079 --> 0:52:04.519 they said these characters are a third someone you know, 0:52:05.359 --> 0:52:09.159 a third made up and a third yourself. And while 0:52:09.159 --> 0:52:14.759 I don't necessarily, what I think is myself is the 0:52:14.879 --> 0:52:17.359 narrative that comes on the page. It's not necessarily a 0:52:17.439 --> 0:52:20.879 character or a thing, but it's the wisdom that I'm 0:52:20.919 --> 0:52:24.999 searching for in that book. Yes, and I have a 0:52:25.039 --> 0:52:27.999 new book coming out later this year. It's called Mad Maybe. 0:52:28.119 --> 0:52:31.359 Yes, I've read Mad Maybe or part way through with Maybe, 0:52:31.639 --> 0:52:36.519 which is so different than anything that you've done. I 0:52:36.519 --> 0:52:41.839 think so. Well, just I love having a character who's 0:52:41.919 --> 0:52:44.839 in her eighties. I find that, yeah, just amazing. But 0:52:44.879 --> 0:52:46.959 also that we get to see her in her youth. 0:52:47.559 --> 0:52:49.719 It's really interesting. Yeah. 0:52:49.879 --> 0:52:51.519 I haven't had a lot of people read it yet, 0:52:51.559 --> 0:52:55.639 so it's been I love hearing that in the Yeah, 0:52:55.959 --> 0:53:00.159 in the early it's in a like a binder. Oh 0:53:00.199 --> 0:53:02.439 they sent your boundary, Yeah, I've got Yeah, I don't 0:53:02.439 --> 0:53:06.319 know what that's. Well, that's even different from advanced reader copy. 0:53:06.519 --> 0:53:09.959 Yeah, because I've seen the cover online and I'm like, ah, 0:53:10.039 --> 0:53:11.919 that's what that's how it's going to look. 0:53:12.239 --> 0:53:14.039 Well, I think So the big thing that's come out 0:53:14.079 --> 0:53:17.119 of my life experience is that book in its essence, 0:53:17.119 --> 0:53:18.839 And it's funny because you read the blurb and it's 0:53:18.839 --> 0:53:22.999 about an eighty one year old curmudgeonly you know, I 0:53:23.039 --> 0:53:26.559 had so much joy writing that character who finds her 0:53:26.879 --> 0:53:32.519 neighbor dead and no one suspects anything until they find 0:53:32.559 --> 0:53:37.759 out that she, in fact was not a serial killer, 0:53:37.759 --> 0:53:41.319 like was convicted of murders when she was fifteen years old, 0:53:41.359 --> 0:53:43.759 and we go back in time to find that out. 0:53:44.199 --> 0:53:46.919 But the book, unlikely as it seems, is about friendship, 0:53:47.479 --> 0:53:50.519 and it's that comes, of course, off the heels of 0:53:50.559 --> 0:53:54.279 my These last two years have been about friendship for me, 0:53:54.839 --> 0:53:59.039 so much hurt and everything, but the way that friends 0:53:59.079 --> 0:54:04.039 can save you. And this book what I wanted to 0:54:04.119 --> 0:54:08.639 explore was can one friend save you? Is that enough? 0:54:08.679 --> 0:54:11.719 And what if you don't have one friend? What happens 0:54:11.759 --> 0:54:14.279 to you then? And so I don't. 0:54:14.279 --> 0:54:16.879 It's funny because she's been the sort of because she's 0:54:16.879 --> 0:54:21.199 so prickly and combative, it's almost like she's wanted to 0:54:21.279 --> 0:54:25.319 keep the world at bay. But she's also you can't 0:54:25.399 --> 0:54:26.919 help but love her good. 0:54:27.759 --> 0:54:29.759 Well, she's vulnerable, like even the people that want to 0:54:29.839 --> 0:54:32.399 keep the world at bay, they're probably the most vulnerable. 0:54:32.439 --> 0:54:34.359 There's a reason that you do that. As humans, we 0:54:34.399 --> 0:54:38.039 want to connect. And yeah, like there is a kind 0:54:38.079 --> 0:54:42.479 of hope, a layered story about that, and all of 0:54:42.519 --> 0:54:47.279 that comes from my experience over the last couple of 0:54:47.319 --> 0:54:52.439 years and the importance that friendship has. And it's dedicated 0:54:52.479 --> 0:54:57.479 to my best friend Sash, who has just been diagnosed 0:54:57.479 --> 0:55:00.879 for the second time with triple negative breast cancer. She's 0:55:00.919 --> 0:55:06.159 going through treatment at the moment. Again, we it's it's 0:55:07.599 --> 0:55:10.159 it's it's been so difficult. But the thing, and she 0:55:10.199 --> 0:55:12.999 talks about it all the time, is I've got my girls, 0:55:13.239 --> 0:55:16.279 you know, I've got and we just know what to 0:55:16.279 --> 0:55:18.319 do and we just rally and we support and we'll 0:55:18.319 --> 0:55:22.639 get her through it. And and there is the it's 0:55:22.679 --> 0:55:26.519 so horrible and it's so difficult for her, you know, 0:55:27.319 --> 0:55:30.079 it's so difficult to watch her go through that. But 0:55:30.159 --> 0:55:32.719 at the same time, and this is what I felt 0:55:32.719 --> 0:55:37.159 about my divorce, there's this beautifulness of it, of the 0:55:37.239 --> 0:55:40.999 way that we just move around each other at these 0:55:41.039 --> 0:55:44.599 difficult times, and that's the stuff that it just moves 0:55:44.639 --> 0:55:49.919 me in a way that I don't think any I 0:55:50.159 --> 0:55:52.959 don't know, Like, I don't know why that love doesn't 0:55:52.999 --> 0:55:54.679 have that same company. 0:55:55.919 --> 0:56:02.079 My girlfriend of mine had breast catcer last year before last, 0:56:03.279 --> 0:56:10.919 and it does. What you do is you you can't 0:56:10.919 --> 0:56:15.359 hold anything back, no, because it's a currency you've just 0:56:15.399 --> 0:56:21.679 got to spend. Yeah, and sometimes the watching everyone bring 0:56:21.719 --> 0:56:27.479 it is, like you said, just beautiful, cruel but beautiful. Yeah. 0:56:28.399 --> 0:56:30.559 I always think, look to the helpers, you know. Another 0:56:30.639 --> 0:56:34.999 one I don't know who said that. Someone did say that, 0:56:35.239 --> 0:56:36.039 look to the helper. 0:56:36.079 --> 0:56:36.639 Who was it? 0:56:36.639 --> 0:56:38.119 It was someone that was not a writer. 0:56:38.479 --> 0:56:41.559 I think that was like a Michelle ob that. 0:56:41.479 --> 0:56:47.839 She always says the good things. But yeah, oh I 0:56:47.879 --> 0:56:52.679 don't have it. No, I'm fine. That's what friendship is. 0:56:52.719 --> 0:56:55.159 It's the hard and it's the beautiful. And I don't 0:56:55.199 --> 0:56:58.399 know anyone who's you know, I'm forty five and I 0:56:58.399 --> 0:57:00.399 don't know any forty five year olds that haven't been 0:57:00.439 --> 0:57:08.159 through something really difficult. And we know more difficult stuff 0:57:08.199 --> 0:57:10.519 is going to come, you know, hopefully, because that means 0:57:10.519 --> 0:57:12.639 we're alive, and that's more difficult things. 0:57:12.639 --> 0:57:15.999 I always said that in yoga class. I'm always like, yeah, 0:57:16.039 --> 0:57:21.439 because there are always if you're discomfort yes, yes, it's 0:57:21.479 --> 0:57:26.759 about discomfort, and so they'll often say the temporary discomfort 0:57:27.519 --> 0:57:30.999 in the in this class or in the practice of 0:57:31.079 --> 0:57:36.079 yoga helps you take on the discomforts that are coming 0:57:36.119 --> 0:57:36.919 for you in life. 0:57:39.599 --> 0:57:41.119 I can't wait, but. 0:57:40.799 --> 0:57:41.679 It is true. 0:57:42.079 --> 0:57:45.039 Well, yeah, I heard a similar saying, which was, you know, 0:57:45.439 --> 0:57:47.759 it was something to do with waves. So it's you know, 0:57:47.839 --> 0:57:50.239 you stand in the water in the ocean and the 0:57:50.279 --> 0:57:54.199 waves come. You know, hopefully you get a gap between them, 0:57:54.239 --> 0:57:56.639 but your role is to learn how to swim, because 0:57:56.679 --> 0:57:58.959 you know the next one is coming. You know, you 0:57:58.999 --> 0:58:01.519 can't just get bold, you know, if you do, just 0:58:01.559 --> 0:58:04.279 get bold over. But if you learn to swim, then 0:58:04.559 --> 0:58:06.879 so that each time you learn a bit more than 0:58:06.879 --> 0:58:08.679 you're going to be ready for the ones that are coming. 0:58:08.879 --> 0:58:12.839 Okay, that's very interesting, because that is I like that. 0:58:13.039 --> 0:58:16.679 Sometimes I think that we don't allow ourselves, or we 0:58:16.719 --> 0:58:20.319 don't emphasize enough how much agency we play in our 0:58:20.359 --> 0:58:21.319 own lives. 0:58:21.039 --> 0:58:23.519 Or how much opportunity there is given. 0:58:23.559 --> 0:58:25.839 As you said earlier, like it's a privilege to be 0:58:25.879 --> 0:58:29.319 able to even think like that, really, because some people 0:58:29.399 --> 0:58:32.319 are just bowled over by waves and can't even get 0:58:32.359 --> 0:58:35.599 back on their knees. But you've got to teach yourself 0:58:35.599 --> 0:58:42.959 to swim, you do, and really probably teach yourself, as 0:58:42.999 --> 0:58:46.519 you have done with your girlfriends, to not only save yourself, 0:58:46.559 --> 0:58:50.439 but try and save someone else while you're at it. 0:58:51.039 --> 0:58:56.399 That is almost the I think it's the key to 0:58:57.439 --> 0:59:01.359 getting through something is to focus on someone else, right, 0:59:01.959 --> 0:59:05.919 And I you know, as terrible as as you know 0:59:06.359 --> 0:59:09.079 my friend's illness is, I do think that it pulled 0:59:09.079 --> 0:59:10.639 me out of a depression. I think I've been in 0:59:10.679 --> 0:59:13.719 a mild depression for a couple of years, and as 0:59:13.759 --> 0:59:18.519 soon as I knew that she needed me, Yeah, it does. Yeah, 0:59:18.599 --> 0:59:21.039 you know, then you you're out of it and there's 0:59:21.079 --> 0:59:23.959 something more important than you. And I think that is 0:59:24.079 --> 0:59:28.559 the key to you know, you steal yourself and you heal, 0:59:29.079 --> 0:59:32.159 but then look out to the world again, because it's 0:59:32.199 --> 0:59:34.159 not you know, you can spend so much time looking 0:59:34.599 --> 0:59:38.079 inward and there's self love and everything, but actually sometimes 0:59:38.119 --> 0:59:40.599 the most loving thing is to look outwards and go 0:59:40.639 --> 0:59:41.559 and help someone. 0:59:41.279 --> 0:59:45.039 Else because also then that reminds you once again of 0:59:45.039 --> 0:59:49.839 what you're capable of. Yeah, it's a strange gift to 0:59:50.439 --> 0:59:51.239 be given. 0:59:51.519 --> 0:59:55.999 Exactly, and it's almost you know, having friendship is such 0:59:55.999 --> 0:59:58.119 a blessing. But it's even better to be a friend, 0:59:58.199 --> 1:00:00.879 you know. That actually is a better feeling in a way. 1:00:00.919 --> 1:00:04.959 Oh my god, someone said it's better to get then 1:00:05.039 --> 1:00:06.599 received would. 1:00:06.399 --> 1:00:11.319 Have been someone smart. Just attribute them to like random 1:00:11.359 --> 1:00:17.559 people people that is, so let us know who said 1:00:17.559 --> 1:00:17.879 them all. 1:00:18.239 --> 1:00:21.359 Hey, what's Sally Hepworth's future? 1:00:21.639 --> 1:00:27.599 Well on the tenth of August, my first book to TV. 1:00:28.199 --> 1:00:34.039 Oh yes, serious coming so many at once because it's 1:00:34.199 --> 1:00:38.199 the Family next Door. Also Darling Girls. 1:00:38.039 --> 1:00:43.599 So Darling Girls has been optioned and that is currently 1:00:44.719 --> 1:00:47.479 a writer has been attached and she's working on the script. 1:00:48.119 --> 1:00:49.959 Was that that Amy Pohler thing who. 1:00:49.959 --> 1:00:52.959 Amy Polar optioned? The mother in law? The mother in 1:00:53.039 --> 1:00:57.279 law and the soulmate has also been optioned. 1:00:57.679 --> 1:00:59.239 I saw that with Asher. 1:00:59.439 --> 1:01:02.359 Yes, Asha Ketty is attached, which is amazing and she's 1:01:02.439 --> 1:01:07.119 going to produce. And also my short story Uncharted Waters 1:01:07.119 --> 1:01:07.559 has been. 1:01:08.079 --> 1:01:12.199 Short stories that you googled how to write a short. 1:01:12.039 --> 1:01:17.479 Story, and Blossom, which is Nicole Kidman's production company has 1:01:17.519 --> 1:01:21.879 optioned that. The thing about the options is that they 1:01:21.919 --> 1:01:24.799 come in that's so exciting, and then it goes quiet. 1:01:24.919 --> 1:01:28.519 Yeah yeah, and sometimes nothing happens or sometimes a lot 1:01:28.519 --> 1:01:31.439 of things are happening behind the scenes and I'm getting 1:01:31.439 --> 1:01:32.119 on with my life. 1:01:32.159 --> 1:01:36.679 So optioning is when people a production company will say 1:01:37.439 --> 1:01:40.559 we love this, we want to do something with it. 1:01:41.359 --> 1:01:42.959 You enter into an arrangement. 1:01:42.959 --> 1:01:45.199 But as we know, it could take years for things 1:01:45.239 --> 1:01:46.599 to get produced. 1:01:46.159 --> 1:01:49.039 Rore and nothing can happen. What they do is they 1:01:49.079 --> 1:01:51.439 buy the rights to have no one else look at 1:01:51.439 --> 1:01:53.959 it for a period of time, so it's theirs to 1:01:54.079 --> 1:01:55.719 try and get it off the ground, to try. 1:01:55.679 --> 1:01:59.279 Also landing all at once these little ships that you 1:01:59.439 --> 1:02:00.719 sent out to see. 1:02:01.079 --> 1:02:04.159 It does feel like over the last and finally over 1:02:04.159 --> 1:02:07.479 the last two years, as my personal life's been imploding, 1:02:08.239 --> 1:02:11.599 a lot of a lot of things have been hitting. 1:02:12.039 --> 1:02:16.559 Do you think it's I do think that sometimes when 1:02:16.559 --> 1:02:19.679 you've gone through a period where you've set yourself free, 1:02:20.559 --> 1:02:24.319 that it's you entered this kind of flow state and 1:02:24.479 --> 1:02:25.799 suddenly things change. 1:02:25.839 --> 1:02:26.839 Do you think that's happened? 1:02:26.879 --> 1:02:29.679 I do. I do. I believe in that. I've also 1:02:29.879 --> 1:02:32.799 a woman of my forties. I also do yoga, I 1:02:32.799 --> 1:02:36.839 have crystals. I've become very much into the universe and 1:02:37.279 --> 1:02:39.879 you know, putting my feet in the grass and doing 1:02:39.919 --> 1:02:45.559 all of that, and I do believe so much in signs, 1:02:45.559 --> 1:02:48.039 in energy, in things falling into your lap. 1:02:48.239 --> 1:02:50.399 At it all to me too, I'm mad for it. Yeah, 1:02:50.639 --> 1:02:53.519 I'm thinking about buying an earthing sheet. I've got one. 1:02:54.199 --> 1:02:56.639 You got one with the core? Have you got one 1:02:56.679 --> 1:03:00.119 with you? Is it a plug in one or one 1:03:00.119 --> 1:03:02.679 where you run I've been looking at a real bonkers 1:03:02.679 --> 1:03:05.319 one from Canada or whatever. You have to run a 1:03:05.399 --> 1:03:08.319 copper cable outside your window into. 1:03:08.159 --> 1:03:11.319 The grid, Yes, no, mine's not mine. It has the copper, 1:03:11.359 --> 1:03:12.599 but it plugs in. 1:03:12.639 --> 1:03:16.039 Plugs in. Does it work with electricity for grounding? 1:03:16.119 --> 1:03:17.959 No? Like, how would you know if it works? 1:03:17.999 --> 1:03:20.679 That's a beautiful thing about it. You look really healthy. 1:03:21.919 --> 1:03:26.079 That I'm going off. I oh, everything like that I've done. Yeah, 1:03:26.119 --> 1:03:29.039 I love that Stuch can't get enough of it. 1:03:29.279 --> 1:03:32.279 And I'm mad on supplements. This could go all day. 1:03:33.359 --> 1:03:37.279 This could go all day. Sally Hepworth, what an absolute 1:03:37.799 --> 1:03:40.799 duel you are in the crown of artists. 1:03:41.799 --> 1:03:44.239 I love this? Is that some something someone said? Is 1:03:44.239 --> 1:03:46.759 that a writer? We don't calk? She wrote this book 1:03:46.799 --> 1:03:47.679 called chow Bella. 1:03:48.359 --> 1:03:51.159 It said, it's not on net Worth, but it's pretty good. 1:03:51.919 --> 1:03:52.479 It's wonderful. 1:03:52.519 --> 1:03:55.959 I've read Oh, I brought a gift for you because 1:03:55.999 --> 1:03:58.159 I've got your soul which I loved. 1:03:58.879 --> 1:04:00.079 I have a signed coffee. 1:04:00.279 --> 1:04:03.159 I have it at home. Oh I wanted to give 1:04:03.199 --> 1:04:03.399 you that. 1:04:03.759 --> 1:04:04.559 Well, I'll still take it. 1:04:04.879 --> 1:04:06.919 Look and signing you to sign the soul mate. But 1:04:06.919 --> 1:04:09.799 when I bought it, I already bought a signed one. 1:04:10.399 --> 1:04:11.719 Well I can personalize. 1:04:11.959 --> 1:04:15.759 Yeah, okay, good, we're going to do that. I'll see 1:04:15.759 --> 1:04:18.119 you in five months. We'll have our chat about AI 1:04:18.279 --> 1:04:21.719 is now doing everything for you. Look forward and may 1:04:21.799 --> 1:04:28.279 your ship box always be full in the best way exactly. 1:04:29.319 --> 1:04:30.559 Thank you. This has been lovely. 1:04:34.359 --> 1:04:36.799 Sally and I could have talked all day, and in 1:04:36.839 --> 1:04:41.959 fact we very nearly did, and it just struck me 1:04:42.039 --> 1:04:46.599 how generous and open she is. Even sometimes in the 1:04:46.639 --> 1:04:48.679 parts of your life that are kind of shadowy and 1:04:48.719 --> 1:04:52.439 your inclination is to try and cover them up, she's 1:04:52.679 --> 1:04:57.279 just spreading sunshine through herself and to those around her. 1:04:58.239 --> 1:05:03.359 It's always fascinating when the storyteller becomes the story. Sally's 1:05:03.399 --> 1:05:07.359 life has changed in ways she never saw coming, and 1:05:07.439 --> 1:05:11.279 she's done what so many women do. She's carried on. 1:05:12.319 --> 1:05:16.079 But what stayed with me was this, when everything falls apart, 1:05:16.919 --> 1:05:21.039 Sally doesn't pretend to have the answers, she just keeps 1:05:21.279 --> 1:05:26.039 showing up. The executive producer of No Filter is Nama 1:05:26.079 --> 1:05:29.999 Brown and the senior producer is Bree Player. Audio production 1:05:30.199 --> 1:05:33.559 is by Jacob Brown and I am your host, Kate 1:05:33.639 --> 1:05:36.319 lane Brook. Thank you so much for sharing No Filter 1:05:36.519 --> 1:05:36.799 with me. 1:05:45.199 --> 1:05:48.519 Hello, it's Nama here, the executive producer of No Filter 1:05:48.719 --> 1:05:52.639 bringing you a sample of Mamma MIA's women's health podcast, Well, 1:05:53.119 --> 1:05:57.879 hosted by doctor Merriam and Claire Murphy. This week's episode 1:05:57.919 --> 1:06:01.199 is about pregnancy, but that's not all. They'll also take 1:06:01.239 --> 1:06:03.639 you to mad school to talk about why you might 1:06:03.719 --> 1:06:06.199 get a pen in your but when you have your period, 1:06:06.679 --> 1:06:11.199 and do a quick consult about testosterone Duram Perry. If 1:06:11.239 --> 1:06:14.439 you want to hear the full episode. Well is your 1:06:14.519 --> 1:06:17.959 Full Body Health Check and drops every week on a Thursday. 1:06:18.199 --> 1:06:21.079 This episode of Well is brought to you in partnership 1:06:21.159 --> 1:06:28.759 with Clear Blue Australian Women. 1:06:29.079 --> 1:06:31.839 Welcome to your Full Body Health Check. I'm Claire Murphy 1:06:31.959 --> 1:06:34.119 and for the sake of today's episode, because we are 1:06:34.119 --> 1:06:36.599 talking about pregnancy, I'll let you know that I have 1:06:36.719 --> 1:06:39.879 been pregnant twice in my life. Once when I was 1:06:39.879 --> 1:06:42.479 a very young teenager, which is a pregnancy I chose 1:06:42.519 --> 1:06:45.799 to terminate and have zero regrets about. And then I 1:06:45.839 --> 1:06:49.359 got pregnant again at thirty five, where I was wonderfully 1:06:49.399 --> 1:06:52.839 called a geriatric pregnancy, and that resulted in my small 1:06:52.919 --> 1:06:53.719 human And. 1:06:53.679 --> 1:06:57.359 I'm doctor Mariam, a GP, a mother and someone who 1:06:57.399 --> 1:07:01.039 has lived the full spectrum of the fertility journey, from 1:07:01.079 --> 1:07:04.919 the heartbreak of my firstborn Samuel, who was a still earth, 1:07:05.319 --> 1:07:09.079 to three miscarriages and two years of infertility. My path 1:07:09.119 --> 1:07:11.999 has been anything but easy, but it led me to 1:07:12.039 --> 1:07:16.119 my greatest blessings, my beautiful rainbow two boys, Zak and Jagin. 1:07:22.559 --> 1:07:25.159 Thank you so much for sharing that. I know that 1:07:25.479 --> 1:07:28.199 sometimes with your self and with friends of mine who've 1:07:28.199 --> 1:07:31.839 really struggled to get pregnant and to have babies, it's 1:07:32.159 --> 1:07:34.879 it's a really emotional thing to talk about, especially all 1:07:34.879 --> 1:07:38.239 the losses too so. But I think it's interesting to 1:07:38.279 --> 1:07:42.559 note that like our pregnancy journeys could not be more different. 1:07:42.559 --> 1:07:45.319 Like it's such a vast array. 1:07:45.079 --> 1:07:48.839 Of experiences involved in getting pregnant, being pregnant, and having babies. 1:07:49.079 --> 1:07:51.759 Because I was the discussion with my husband worriers went, 1:07:51.759 --> 1:07:53.399 should I just stop taking the pill and like, if 1:07:53.399 --> 1:07:55.039 it happens, it happens, and if it doesn't, it doesn't 1:07:55.039 --> 1:07:56.639 and he's like, yeah, cool, and then it did and 1:07:56.679 --> 1:07:57.959 it was just like and then we're like cool, do 1:07:57.959 --> 1:07:58.959 you I want to do it again? And we're like 1:07:59.279 --> 1:08:01.959 not really, it's won and done. We could yeah, very 1:08:02.079 --> 1:08:05.199 very different perspectives. And in case you haven't worked it out, 1:08:05.199 --> 1:08:07.999 we are talking about being up the Duff today with 1:08:08.159 --> 1:08:10.559 child Prego bun in the oven however you would like 1:08:10.599 --> 1:08:13.159 to refer to it. We will find out what's happening 1:08:13.199 --> 1:08:17.279 to your internals and it is a lot. And we 1:08:17.319 --> 1:08:19.559 have a quick consult for Tony who's been seeing a 1:08:19.719 --> 1:08:22.679 bunch of people on her feed talking about a hormone 1:08:22.719 --> 1:08:25.119 that she thinks that maybe she might need to but 1:08:25.439 --> 1:08:28.639 her understanding is is that it's something that is exclusively 1:08:28.679 --> 1:08:32.159 for men. Now, Mariam, I have found out something very 1:08:32.159 --> 1:08:34.639 interesting about women's buttholes. 1:08:35.999 --> 1:08:36.679 Go for it. 1:08:37.519 --> 1:08:39.359 I've said this before, I will say this again. 1:08:39.439 --> 1:08:41.759 I am a deeply immature human being and I will 1:08:41.839 --> 1:08:43.399 laugh every time I say but holes. 1:08:43.439 --> 1:08:44.079 But here we go. 1:08:44.919 --> 1:08:49.159 Something happens to some of our buttholes during our period. Yep, 1:08:49.519 --> 1:08:52.519 we need answers this is very serious medicine, Mariam. 1:08:52.559 --> 1:08:54.519 I want to know where this conversation is going. 1:08:54.879 --> 1:08:56.039 Let's go to med school. 1:08:56.279 --> 1:08:58.479 Welcome to med school, Mariam. 1:08:58.479 --> 1:09:01.879 We've discussed all types of pain that women might experience 1:09:01.919 --> 1:09:07.479 from various things, but have you ever experienced a proctalgia fugax? 1:09:07.799 --> 1:09:08.639 Oh my goodness. 1:09:08.679 --> 1:09:10.199 Now, this is something that happens to a lot of 1:09:10.199 --> 1:09:11.599 women when they have their periods. 1:09:11.639 --> 1:09:13.879 So you might just be, you know, walking along. 1:09:13.719 --> 1:09:16.719 Minding your own damn business when you're hit with a 1:09:16.879 --> 1:09:21.839 really short, sharp pain in your buttthole. It feels like 1:09:21.919 --> 1:09:24.399 someone shoved a hof knife up there for a second. Yep, 1:09:24.559 --> 1:09:29.599 it is like butt lightning. It's reportedly super normal, quite harmless. 1:09:29.639 --> 1:09:32.479 It's a spasm in the anal sphincter or pelvic floor muscles. 1:09:32.919 --> 1:09:35.519 The pain can last somewhere between a few seconds, which 1:09:35.519 --> 1:09:37.999 I think is what the majority of us have probably experienced. 1:09:38.319 --> 1:09:41.999 Two way recorded ninety minutes, which sounds like the worst 1:09:42.119 --> 1:09:45.759 day ever. Marriam. Do you get butt lightning on your period? 1:09:46.479 --> 1:09:50.199 Butt lightning? Yes, so proctalgia? Four gucks. It sounds like 1:09:50.239 --> 1:09:54.239 a Harry Potters spell. It steels more like a curse. Yes, 1:09:54.279 --> 1:09:57.519 I've had that surprise up and it's usually like surprise 1:09:57.279 --> 1:09:59.999 that it's exactly what that is. It's usually in the coals, 1:10:00.039 --> 1:10:04.239 freezer ales I've gotten us. That's where your butt always 1:10:04.279 --> 1:10:11.999 decide to betray you. Top that or a pot triggered 1:10:11.999 --> 1:10:12.559 by the cold. 1:10:12.679 --> 1:10:13.679 Oh my goodness. 1:10:14.159 --> 1:10:18.439 Yes. So if you are just randomly sitting there and 1:10:18.479 --> 1:10:22.319 it's like Harry Potter ZAPPEDI with his wand in your buttthole, 1:10:22.679 --> 1:10:26.479 it's totally fine. Don't stress. From spiky buttholes to actually 1:10:26.519 --> 1:10:30.279 being up the dove. Today's check up is all things pregnancy. 1:10:32.999 --> 1:10:36.719 When you're trying to get pregnant, timing is everything. With 1:10:36.839 --> 1:10:41.159 only a few precious days each cycle, it's not surprising 1:10:41.239 --> 1:10:43.879 that one in two couples may be trying to conceive 1:10:44.079 --> 1:10:48.519 at the wrong time. That's where clear Blue Advanced Digital 1:10:48.559 --> 1:10:52.159 Ovulation Test comes in. You can double your chances of 1:10:52.159 --> 1:10:55.479 getting pregnant in your first cycle of use versus not 1:10:55.719 --> 1:10:59.919 using ovulation tests. Plus, you can download the free clear 1:10:59.959 --> 1:11:02.999 Blue Period and Cycle Tracking app to keep a diary. 1:11:03.639 --> 1:11:06.839 Double your chances of getting pregnant with the clear Blue 1:11:07.079 --> 1:11:11.319 Advanced Digital Ovulation Test. Always read the label and follow 1:11:11.359 --> 1:11:12.439 the directions for use. 1:11:16.199 --> 1:11:17.759 It's time for the checkup. 1:11:18.999 --> 1:11:22.079 Okay, Mary, can we talk about the first trimester? What 1:11:22.319 --> 1:11:24.879 is actually happening in your body when you conceive and 1:11:25.039 --> 1:11:28.079 why a first trimester mum's so tired. 1:11:28.399 --> 1:11:32.999 So when you conceive, your body immediately kicks into pregnancy gear, right, 1:11:33.039 --> 1:11:36.279 it wants to support that tiny new life. The fertilized 1:11:36.279 --> 1:11:39.039 egging plants itself into the lining of your uterus, which 1:11:39.079 --> 1:11:43.399 starts releasing hormones like hCG and progesterone. And those hormones 1:11:43.439 --> 1:11:45.759 do a bunch of jobs. They keep the pregnancy going, 1:11:45.799 --> 1:11:48.759 they stop your periods, and they start preparing your body 1:11:48.799 --> 1:11:51.799 for the months ahead. So why are we all so 1:11:51.999 --> 1:11:56.879 exhausted during that first trimester? It's always the hormones, same hormones. 1:11:56.959 --> 1:11:57.199 Yeah. 1:11:57.279 --> 1:12:01.439 The progesterone, which we call the pregnancy hormone, relaxes your muscles, 1:12:01.479 --> 1:12:04.119 including your digestive tracks, so that can make you feel 1:12:04.119 --> 1:12:07.839 little bit sluggish. Your metabolism is revving up, so your 1:12:07.879 --> 1:12:10.919 heart is working harder to pump that extra blood, and 1:12:10.959 --> 1:12:13.759 your body's busy building the placenta, which is like a 1:12:13.799 --> 1:12:17.439 new organ and other essentials, so your blood sugar and 1:12:17.479 --> 1:12:19.559 your blood pressure can dip as well, and that leaves 1:12:19.559 --> 1:12:22.799 you feeling wiped out, so you're adding the emotional rollercoaster 1:12:22.919 --> 1:12:26.119 as well. Sometimes you might get the nausea, the morning sickness, 1:12:26.559 --> 1:12:29.639 and it's no wonders that the first trimester is relentless. 1:12:29.959 --> 1:12:32.279 The good news is that it starts to ease up 1:12:32.319 --> 1:12:35.199 when you get to the second trimester. Go when your 1:12:35.239 --> 1:12:38.119 body starts to adjust. So if you're feeling wiped listen 1:12:38.159 --> 1:12:41.239 to your body. Rest when you can, eat good foods, 1:12:41.319 --> 1:12:44.039 stay hydrated, and don't beat yourself up if you need 1:12:44.079 --> 1:12:47.599 that extra downtime. Your body's doing incredible. It's growing a human. 1:12:48.239 --> 1:12:50.759 But in saying that, I just wanted to have a 1:12:50.799 --> 1:12:53.039 conversation and want to see what your thoughts are. A 1:12:53.079 --> 1:12:56.879 lot of people don't like telling people about their pregnancies 1:12:56.919 --> 1:12:59.039 until they pass that twelve weeks because they feel like 1:12:59.079 --> 1:13:02.199 they're in the safe zone. But then this is when 1:13:02.239 --> 1:13:04.239 they need a lot of extra help and support because 1:13:04.679 --> 1:13:06.439 hired and they're wiped out. They're like, oh, how am 1:13:06.479 --> 1:13:08.959 I going to tell my employer that I'm pregnant and 1:13:09.359 --> 1:13:10.999 I might miscarried. I want to tell my family. 1:13:10.999 --> 1:13:11.479 Well, that's it. 1:13:11.479 --> 1:13:13.759 It's the most common window for miscarriage, right, So and 1:13:13.759 --> 1:13:15.799 if something happens to you and you haven't told anybody, 1:13:16.079 --> 1:13:16.839 it makes it hard. 1:13:16.959 --> 1:13:19.719 It does, But I kind of want to break that cycle. 1:13:19.799 --> 1:13:23.119 As females when we see that positive pregnancy stick, there 1:13:23.159 --> 1:13:25.879 shouldn't be that stigma where we shouldn't be allowed to 1:13:25.879 --> 1:13:29.879 announce it. Unfortunately, one in four pregnancies do end in miscarriage, 1:13:30.239 --> 1:13:32.279 and that's when we need support. And if we haven't 1:13:32.319 --> 1:13:34.959 spoken about it, then how do we get that support? 1:13:35.479 --> 1:13:38.639 So I think you know acknowledging I'm pregnant, and if 1:13:38.639 --> 1:13:42.039 a miscarriage does happen, then acknowledging I need support and 1:13:42.079 --> 1:13:43.079 people knew about it. 1:13:43.439 --> 1:13:46.639 Can you answer me this question? Riddle me this, yes, Mariam, 1:13:46.799 --> 1:13:49.119 but can you please tell me how we predict a 1:13:49.119 --> 1:13:51.999 baby's due date and how accurate it is? Because there's 1:13:52.039 --> 1:13:56.159 some math going on here, but realistically, forty weeks, which 1:13:56.199 --> 1:13:58.719 is our normal gestation period, doesn't add up to nine 1:13:58.759 --> 1:14:01.519 months already. The math is not math for me. So 1:14:01.599 --> 1:14:04.039 how do we predict the day that baby's supposed to 1:14:04.039 --> 1:14:04.319 come out? 1:14:04.319 --> 1:14:07.159 Okay, the magic date, it's the date we all obsess 1:14:07.199 --> 1:14:09.359 over as parents. It's a bit of a legend, to 1:14:09.359 --> 1:14:11.399 be honest. Okay, So the standard way we work it 1:14:11.439 --> 1:14:14.079 out here in OZ is you take the first day 1:14:14.199 --> 1:14:17.879 of your last menstrual period and you add two hundred 1:14:17.879 --> 1:14:20.759 and eighty days or forty weeks to that date. It 1:14:20.879 --> 1:14:24.999 sounds straightforward, but pregnancy isn't always a neat nine month 1:14:25.119 --> 1:14:26.839 package like the calendars. 1:14:26.399 --> 1:14:28.759 And another our cycle, yeah, exactly. 1:14:28.319 --> 1:14:31.239 So the forty weeks is based on an average twenty 1:14:31.239 --> 1:14:34.559 eight day menstrual cycle, assuming ovulation happens on day fourteen, 1:14:34.879 --> 1:14:37.719 but not everyone's cycle plays by those rules. Some females 1:14:37.799 --> 1:14:41.479 ovulate earlier, some later, and the date can shift. Plus 1:14:41.599 --> 1:14:44.199 months aren't all the same length, so you've got thirty 1:14:44.279 --> 1:14:47.559 day months, thirty day ones, and then you've got February 1:14:47.599 --> 1:14:47.999 as well. 1:14:48.399 --> 1:14:49.199 But here's the kicker. 1:14:49.239 --> 1:14:52.679 Only one in twenty babies will actually only arrive on 1:14:52.719 --> 1:14:55.319 their due date. Most babies will come either two weeks 1:14:55.359 --> 1:14:58.279 before or two weeks after, so the jew date is 1:14:58.319 --> 1:15:02.279 more of a rough window, not a ticking clock. So 1:15:02.439 --> 1:15:07.039 early ultrasounds in pregnancies can help us estimate gustational age 1:15:07.119 --> 1:15:09.719 if we're not really sure when our last mental period was, 1:15:09.799 --> 1:15:13.519 or if the cycle regularity, and if things start to 1:15:13.559 --> 1:15:16.319 stretch beyond the Jude date, then you know you've got 1:15:16.359 --> 1:15:18.399 your treating team that will help you guide you through that, 1:15:18.599 --> 1:15:22.199 So don't stress about the Jude date. Baby is not 1:15:22.439 --> 1:15:23.839 likely to come at that date. 1:15:24.399 --> 1:15:25.919 Just be aware if your baby does come after the 1:15:25.999 --> 1:15:28.159 jud date, like mine did, it might come out. 1:15:27.959 --> 1:15:29.559 A lot hairer than you expected. 1:15:30.559 --> 1:15:32.439 Just a little shock surprise that you might not be 1:15:32.479 --> 1:15:36.719 aware of. Mariam, what should very early pregnant mums be 1:15:36.839 --> 1:15:38.519 doing from the get go? I know there's a lot 1:15:38.559 --> 1:15:40.999 of talk about what you should have already done in 1:15:41.119 --> 1:15:44.279 the lead up to conception, like not drinking alcohol and 1:15:44.359 --> 1:15:46.479 taking FOL eight supplements, for example, But what are the 1:15:46.479 --> 1:15:48.639 first things you tell a newly pregnant woman to do. 1:15:48.839 --> 1:15:52.599 I love these consults, Like I'm a GP shared antienatal 1:15:52.599 --> 1:15:56.759 care provider, so I would start, if you think you're pregnant, 1:15:56.919 --> 1:16:01.039 finding a GP with antenatal experience and don't just wait, 1:16:01.119 --> 1:16:03.919 so kind of book that consultation in early and there's 1:16:03.919 --> 1:16:06.679 a lot we can do to support a healthy pregnancy physically, 1:16:06.759 --> 1:16:10.039 emotionally and logistically as well. So when you see your doctor, 1:16:10.079 --> 1:16:13.039 we will confirm the pregnancy with like a urinal blood 1:16:13.079 --> 1:16:16.319 test based on what I've said before, and if we're unsure, 1:16:16.359 --> 1:16:19.479 we'll do that dating scan for you. And then this 1:16:19.559 --> 1:16:22.359 is the most important part of the conversation. It's never 1:16:22.439 --> 1:16:26.119 always congratulations on your pregnancy. I always start the conversation 1:16:26.279 --> 1:16:30.199 with is this a congratulation? And it's important because you 1:16:30.239 --> 1:16:32.679 know for some people it's a surprise, it's not at 1:16:32.679 --> 1:16:34.239 the right time. There are a reason. 1:16:34.439 --> 1:16:35.999 And when I was told when I was a teenager, 1:16:36.039 --> 1:16:39.119 I had a major breakdown. So yeah, it's not always. 1:16:38.879 --> 1:16:41.799 A welcling Yeah, that's right. And so your GP will 1:16:41.839 --> 1:16:45.199 walk beside you without judgment. They'll have that conversation and 1:16:45.319 --> 1:16:48.319 if termination is something that you're considering, will guide you 1:16:48.399 --> 1:16:50.159 through that process and make sure that you have the 1:16:50.239 --> 1:16:53.559 right supports. If you are thinking of continuing the pregnancy, 1:16:53.999 --> 1:16:55.959 it's ensuring that you're on the right supplement. So we 1:16:55.999 --> 1:16:59.759 spoke about folic acid and iodine, but then there are 1:16:59.799 --> 1:17:01.879 other things. So if you're at risk of preclamsy, you've 1:17:01.879 --> 1:17:03.679 had preclamcy here before, you might need to be on 1:17:03.759 --> 1:17:06.079 aspirin or cow So it's important we go through your 1:17:06.119 --> 1:17:09.799 medical surgical history, go through any medications you're on that 1:17:09.879 --> 1:17:12.679 might be teratogenic so they might harm the baby, or 1:17:12.719 --> 1:17:15.679 we might need to change dosages of some medications as well. 1:17:16.159 --> 1:17:18.519 Then we check whether your cervical cancer screening is up 1:17:18.559 --> 1:17:20.759 to date. So I'm going to break a myth, it 1:17:20.879 --> 1:17:23.679 is safe during pregnancy. There's also the self collection if 1:17:23.719 --> 1:17:26.479 you're really worried about anything touching the cervix, that self 1:17:26.479 --> 1:17:29.399 collection just touches the sides walls of the vagina, so 1:17:29.479 --> 1:17:32.959 that's completely safe. We also might offer an STI screen 1:17:32.999 --> 1:17:35.679 for some people if that's relevant as well. We'll check 1:17:35.719 --> 1:17:38.039 if your immunizations are up to date, and we'll tell 1:17:38.039 --> 1:17:41.199 you about the schedule of immunizations during pregnancy, which are 1:17:41.239 --> 1:17:44.559 really really important. I know there's a lot of misinformation online. 1:17:44.679 --> 1:17:49.199 If you have any concerns regarding immunizations during pregnancy, please 1:17:49.239 --> 1:17:53.039 please speak with a trusted healthcare professional. Do not get 1:17:53.079 --> 1:17:56.879 your information from untrusted sources online. Then we'll talk about 1:17:56.919 --> 1:18:01.679 lifestyle and nutrition. So obviously no smoking, no vaping, alcohol, 1:18:01.759 --> 1:18:04.359 LISTA drugs, and that includes passive smoking. Sometimes just being 1:18:04.359 --> 1:18:07.119 a people that smoke can also harm the baby. And 1:18:07.159 --> 1:18:09.399 then there's the food safety. That's a big one. 1:18:09.559 --> 1:18:10.519 There are certain. 1:18:10.239 --> 1:18:13.639 Foods to avoid, soft cheeses, deli meats, or all seafoods 1:18:13.879 --> 1:18:17.479 there's a whole bunch of foods, and it's not about 1:18:17.479 --> 1:18:19.599 instilling fear, you know. I still want people to go 1:18:19.679 --> 1:18:22.399 out and be able to eat healthy foods. I usually 1:18:22.439 --> 1:18:25.199 refer people to the New South World Food Authority Guide. 1:18:25.239 --> 1:18:28.079 It's a great resource, has a lot of information about 1:18:28.599 --> 1:18:31.159 it's got like a red light, green light, orange light system, 1:18:31.279 --> 1:18:33.719 or things to just be cautious with. I usually print 1:18:33.759 --> 1:18:36.839 that out for them. And important conversation I also have 1:18:37.039 --> 1:18:40.479 is about domestic safety and emotional health. So this part 1:18:40.559 --> 1:18:43.639 is so important. We will ask gently and privately about 1:18:43.639 --> 1:18:47.439 your safety at home. Unfortunately, pregnancy increases the risk of DV. 1:18:48.119 --> 1:18:51.279 The questions aren't just routine, they're protective. We also talk 1:18:51.279 --> 1:18:54.839 about mental health. So peronatal anxiety is very very common 1:18:54.839 --> 1:18:57.679 and it's a risk factor for postnatal depression. So we 1:18:57.799 --> 1:19:00.119 catch it early. We can put in those supports early 1:19:00.519 --> 1:19:03.279 and if anything's flagged, will help you access the right care. 1:19:04.199 --> 1:19:07.399 I'm a bit of a Debbie down us. I've been 1:19:07.439 --> 1:19:10.999 through the miscarriage journey, and even as a health professional, 1:19:11.639 --> 1:19:14.599 I was also a bit annoyed that we don't have 1:19:14.679 --> 1:19:19.719 this conversation that one inful pregnancies. Unfortunately, do anti miscarriage. 1:19:19.719 --> 1:19:22.719 So I think having that conversation at that first consert 1:19:22.719 --> 1:19:25.639 with the doctor saying, this may not be your story, 1:19:25.759 --> 1:19:27.719 but I want you to be prepared. These are the 1:19:27.719 --> 1:19:31.439 signs and symptoms to look out for ectopic pregnancy, education 1:19:31.519 --> 1:19:33.399 of the signs and symptoms to look out for. And 1:19:33.439 --> 1:19:35.799 it's not about, you know, kind of ruining the mood 1:19:35.919 --> 1:19:39.639 and the celebrations, but it's about providing them with that 1:19:39.759 --> 1:19:43.199 information that you know will be really really helpful if 1:19:43.239 --> 1:19:43.599 it was. 1:19:43.559 --> 1:19:45.719 To end that way, because we often find ourselves when 1:19:45.759 --> 1:19:48.199 we do experience those things asking why didn't anyone tell 1:19:48.239 --> 1:19:48.959 me about exactly? 1:19:49.119 --> 1:19:52.999 Yeah, you'll have some antenatal bloods and potentially genetic screening 1:19:53.039 --> 1:19:55.359 if you haven't had that offered, and then we'll plan 1:19:55.439 --> 1:19:57.839 the antenatal journey. We'll talk to you about the options, 1:19:57.839 --> 1:20:00.399 whether you want to go privately or publicly through a 1:20:00.439 --> 1:20:02.919 midwife system or whatever that might look like, and we'll 1:20:02.919 --> 1:20:06.119 put those referrals in place and then follow you up. Gosh, 1:20:06.599 --> 1:20:08.639 that's a lot, it's a lot. 1:20:08.719 --> 1:20:08.879 One. 1:20:09.559 --> 1:20:12.319 Yeah, it's I love those consoles and then obviously the 1:20:12.559 --> 1:20:16.199 physical examination as well, but no, it's a great, great console. 1:20:16.359 --> 1:20:17.839 I love those consultations. 1:20:18.359 --> 1:20:19.999 I wanted to ask you too, because it's something that 1:20:20.079 --> 1:20:23.039 I did not know how to face when I was pregnant, 1:20:23.119 --> 1:20:26.999 is how do you find a good ogbyn or midwife, Like, 1:20:27.039 --> 1:20:28.599 do you need a referral? Can you go and hunt 1:20:28.639 --> 1:20:29.519 one down for yourself? 1:20:29.759 --> 1:20:32.359 So you do need a referral from your GP, which 1:20:32.399 --> 1:20:35.679 is why the GPS your best starting point, and they 1:20:35.719 --> 1:20:39.159 can recommend someone based on your health needs, your location, 1:20:39.359 --> 1:20:42.799 or your birthing preferences. Most mid referee care is available 1:20:42.839 --> 1:20:45.559 through the public systems unless you wanted to go privately 1:20:45.599 --> 1:20:48.959 as well. I find the Facebook moms group really great 1:20:49.079 --> 1:20:53.079 in terms of recommendations and experiences of obstetricians that they've 1:20:53.079 --> 1:20:54.839 had as well, So that's always a good place to start. 1:20:54.839 --> 1:20:57.719 You can look online, you know, if you've got specific 1:20:57.839 --> 1:21:00.719 issues like your high risk we've got a twin pregnancy, 1:21:00.759 --> 1:21:03.879 there are also obstetricians that kind of look after those's 1:21:03.999 --> 1:21:06.159 or doing a bit of research on your part, or 1:21:06.199 --> 1:21:09.919 speaking to your doctor about any preferences that they might have. Yeah, 1:21:09.959 --> 1:21:12.319 so your first port of call and they'll match you 1:21:12.359 --> 1:21:14.519 to the right team for you through your pregnancy journey. 1:21:14.639 --> 1:21:15.159 Amazing. 1:21:16.239 --> 1:21:18.199 Okay, on the way we're going to answer a quick 1:21:18.239 --> 1:21:21.039 consult for Tony who's on HRT, but she thinks maybe 1:21:21.079 --> 1:21:24.319 it's missing something that most of us think only belongs 1:21:24.359 --> 1:21:26.679 to men. But next we are catching up with Associate 1:21:26.719 --> 1:21:30.119 Professor Kirsten Palmer to talk through all the basics of pregnancy, 1:21:30.199 --> 1:21:34.039 from like bigger feat to blood pressure, the food rules, 1:21:34.079 --> 1:21:37.359 and why medications may not work as well when you're expecting. 1:21:39.959 --> 1:21:42.639 If you want to hear the full episode, Well is 1:21:42.679 --> 1:21:45.399 your Full Body Health Check and drops every week on 1:21:45.439 --> 1:21:48.319 a Thursday, we've popped a link in our show notes 1:21:48.439 --> 1:21:49.639 for you to like and follow. 1:21:49.999 --> 1:21:52.439 This episode of Well was brought to you in partnership 1:21:52.439 --> 1:21:53.399 with Clear Blue. 1:21:54.119 --> 1:21:56.999 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 1:21:57.079 --> 1:21:59.319 waters that this podcast is recorded on