1 00:00:11,149 --> 00:00:13,909 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,829 --> 00:00:18,349 Speaker 2: MoMA Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:18,349 --> 00:00:20,069 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:20,269 --> 00:00:23,109 Speaker 3: Hello. I'm Stacy Hicks. I'm the editor of Mamma Mia 5 00:00:23,189 --> 00:00:25,629 Speaker 3: and I'm also the host of our new parenting podcast, 6 00:00:25,749 --> 00:00:29,149 Speaker 3: Parenting out Loud. And this summer, we're curating your listening 7 00:00:29,149 --> 00:00:32,189 Speaker 3: with a healthy dose of culture savvy conversations that parents 8 00:00:32,309 --> 00:00:36,229 Speaker 3: actually want. This holiday season, we're bringing you unmissable episodes 9 00:00:36,309 --> 00:00:39,789 Speaker 3: right here into your podcast playlist. It's your summer listening sorted. 10 00:00:40,229 --> 00:00:42,109 Speaker 3: And if you're looking for more to listen to, every 11 00:00:42,189 --> 00:00:45,069 Speaker 3: Muma Mia podcast is curating some are listening right across 12 00:00:45,109 --> 00:00:48,909 Speaker 3: the network, from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews. 13 00:00:49,189 --> 00:00:51,629 Speaker 3: There's something for everyone. There's a link in the show notes. 14 00:00:58,109 --> 00:01:01,829 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Parenting out Loud. I am Jesse Stevens, 15 00:01:01,989 --> 00:01:05,589 Speaker 2: and I am joined by Amelia Lester. We are embarking 16 00:01:05,749 --> 00:01:08,989 Speaker 2: on a mini series all about what's happening this week 17 00:01:09,069 --> 00:01:12,229 Speaker 2: through the lens of being a parent. And to be clear, 18 00:01:12,429 --> 00:01:14,349 Speaker 2: we are not going to be talking about wheat bix 19 00:01:14,389 --> 00:01:16,669 Speaker 2: in our hair or vomit on our shirts. This is 20 00:01:16,669 --> 00:01:19,029 Speaker 2: not your mother's group It's a series that we hope 21 00:01:19,109 --> 00:01:21,589 Speaker 2: will make your world feel just a little bit bigger. 22 00:01:22,269 --> 00:01:24,989 Speaker 2: In short, if parents are thinking about it, we are 23 00:01:25,189 --> 00:01:29,269 Speaker 2: talking about it. Welcome Amelia Lester. How old are your 24 00:01:29,349 --> 00:01:29,909 Speaker 2: kids now? 25 00:01:30,149 --> 00:01:31,549 Speaker 4: My kids are five and seven. 26 00:01:31,869 --> 00:01:35,309 Speaker 1: They're both in school, which has given me an unexpected 27 00:01:35,389 --> 00:01:38,869 Speaker 1: sense of order and serenity because I know where they'll 28 00:01:38,869 --> 00:01:40,549 Speaker 1: be most days and I don't have to think about 29 00:01:40,589 --> 00:01:41,149 Speaker 1: it anymore. 30 00:01:41,389 --> 00:01:43,869 Speaker 2: And it's not all the day care faes No. 31 00:01:44,109 --> 00:01:45,309 Speaker 4: It's very cost efficient. 32 00:01:45,549 --> 00:01:47,749 Speaker 1: I moved back to Australia from the US, where I 33 00:01:47,949 --> 00:01:50,269 Speaker 1: spent the last twenty years on and off last year, 34 00:01:50,669 --> 00:01:52,469 Speaker 1: and I guess I should say that in my day 35 00:01:52,549 --> 00:01:55,749 Speaker 1: job while my children are at school, I am a journalist. 36 00:01:55,549 --> 00:01:58,709 Speaker 2: And I have a toddler as well as a niece 37 00:01:58,709 --> 00:02:01,349 Speaker 2: who I claim as my own. And you may know 38 00:02:01,389 --> 00:02:04,349 Speaker 2: my voice from mummyre out Loud or I also hosted 39 00:02:04,389 --> 00:02:07,189 Speaker 2: The Baby Bubble recently with my twin sister Claire and 40 00:02:07,389 --> 00:02:10,789 Speaker 2: Hallo Bump, which is all about pregnancy. I'm on Mummy 41 00:02:10,829 --> 00:02:12,989 Speaker 2: Out Loud thirty three times a week, so I'm sure 42 00:02:13,589 --> 00:02:17,229 Speaker 2: you know me well. On today's show, the grandparents are 43 00:02:17,269 --> 00:02:20,869 Speaker 2: not okay. In fact, they're reaching their limit. Since when 44 00:02:21,029 --> 00:02:24,909 Speaker 2: did grandparenting become a full time job? Plus the Boy 45 00:02:25,069 --> 00:02:28,309 Speaker 2: who Came Back, the searingly honest article that got us 46 00:02:28,349 --> 00:02:31,109 Speaker 2: thinking about what it means when your world as a 47 00:02:31,149 --> 00:02:34,549 Speaker 2: parent implodes and the reaction of the people around you. 48 00:02:34,949 --> 00:02:39,269 Speaker 2: But first, Mormon Wives, We've got Ballerina Farm, We've got 49 00:02:39,269 --> 00:02:41,989 Speaker 2: this secret lives of Mormon wives, We've got tradwife culture. 50 00:02:42,189 --> 00:02:45,029 Speaker 1: People keep grabbing my arm and telling me I have 51 00:02:45,109 --> 00:02:48,429 Speaker 1: to watch this, And as someone who loves selling Sunset, 52 00:02:48,509 --> 00:02:51,949 Speaker 1: but that's kind of the extent of my reality TV immersion, 53 00:02:52,029 --> 00:02:52,909 Speaker 1: I need you usually. 54 00:02:52,709 --> 00:02:55,749 Speaker 4: Explain why it's suddenly the zeitgeist. 55 00:02:56,029 --> 00:02:58,989 Speaker 2: I have looked at what it is about this moment 56 00:02:59,149 --> 00:03:02,989 Speaker 2: that has made Mormon culture so prominent, right because there 57 00:03:03,069 --> 00:03:05,349 Speaker 2: was an article in the Washington Post end of last 58 00:03:05,389 --> 00:03:09,229 Speaker 2: year which was all about how twenty twenty four was 59 00:03:09,269 --> 00:03:13,109 Speaker 2: the year of more and women specifically, and this is 60 00:03:13,109 --> 00:03:15,629 Speaker 2: what the article said that Mormonism, and to be clear, 61 00:03:15,669 --> 00:03:18,549 Speaker 2: that's the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ in 62 00:03:18,549 --> 00:03:21,389 Speaker 2: the Latter day Saints, and it emphasizes a Christian view 63 00:03:21,469 --> 00:03:24,749 Speaker 2: of God and Jesus while incorporating sort of unique doctrines 64 00:03:24,789 --> 00:03:28,029 Speaker 2: and practices So as someone who grew up Catholic, recognize 65 00:03:28,029 --> 00:03:31,509 Speaker 2: some things, don't recognize a lot. But it pairs very 66 00:03:31,549 --> 00:03:35,149 Speaker 2: well with social media and capitalism. 67 00:03:35,229 --> 00:03:37,829 Speaker 1: But isn't it like all about not drinking coffee or 68 00:03:37,909 --> 00:03:40,549 Speaker 1: alcohol and wearing odd undergarments? 69 00:03:40,709 --> 00:03:43,309 Speaker 2: Yes, well, I think that that's what's interesting is the 70 00:03:43,349 --> 00:03:47,029 Speaker 2: way in which it is engaging with the present moment, right, 71 00:03:47,069 --> 00:03:51,069 Speaker 2: because part of Mormonism is about the performance of purity. 72 00:03:51,189 --> 00:03:54,469 Speaker 2: It's about performance, which obviously lends itself to social media. 73 00:03:54,629 --> 00:03:58,069 Speaker 2: It is about perfectionism, which you'll see in like a 74 00:03:58,229 --> 00:04:03,189 Speaker 2: Ballerina farm representation where it's all the matching clothes of 75 00:04:03,229 --> 00:04:06,029 Speaker 2: the kids and the beautiful hair and the beautiful home. 76 00:04:06,109 --> 00:04:08,469 Speaker 2: And there's something quite alluring about that. 77 00:04:08,629 --> 00:04:10,029 Speaker 4: So Ballerina Farmer's Mormon. 78 00:04:10,229 --> 00:04:13,149 Speaker 2: Yes, And it's the prairie dress as well, which is 79 00:04:13,229 --> 00:04:16,669 Speaker 2: there's something that feels quite nostalgic about it because in 80 00:04:16,869 --> 00:04:20,589 Speaker 2: the US, probably even more than here, but in Australia too, 81 00:04:21,149 --> 00:04:24,709 Speaker 2: parents are kind of broken. So the idea that you 82 00:04:24,869 --> 00:04:28,229 Speaker 2: live in this stunning farmhouse with all the kids you 83 00:04:28,269 --> 00:04:32,029 Speaker 2: could ever want and you barely need to leave the house, yes, 84 00:04:32,229 --> 00:04:32,909 Speaker 2: really works. 85 00:04:32,989 --> 00:04:34,149 Speaker 4: I'm in. 86 00:04:34,589 --> 00:04:37,389 Speaker 2: And the other thing is that Mormon women traditionally are 87 00:04:37,429 --> 00:04:40,229 Speaker 2: not meant to work outside the home. Now social media 88 00:04:40,269 --> 00:04:43,109 Speaker 2: has given them a loophole, which means that they can work. 89 00:04:43,149 --> 00:04:46,029 Speaker 2: They can actually make a heap of money and never 90 00:04:46,069 --> 00:04:49,589 Speaker 2: walk out their front door. So they're doing the cooking 91 00:04:49,669 --> 00:04:52,029 Speaker 2: and the sewing and all of that quite aspirational stuff 92 00:04:52,509 --> 00:04:58,149 Speaker 2: and were or consuming it and making money is part 93 00:04:58,189 --> 00:05:01,429 Speaker 2: of Mormonism in a way, it's not part of Catholicism. 94 00:05:01,589 --> 00:05:01,789 Speaker 4: Right. 95 00:05:01,869 --> 00:05:04,389 Speaker 2: It's like God blessed you if you walk around with 96 00:05:04,429 --> 00:05:05,789 Speaker 2: something very fancy. 97 00:05:05,429 --> 00:05:09,189 Speaker 1: In the most because it's very intertwined with it's a 98 00:05:09,269 --> 00:05:12,509 Speaker 1: very American religion. It was found in the United States, 99 00:05:12,509 --> 00:05:15,189 Speaker 1: I believe in Upstate New York. I have seen the 100 00:05:15,189 --> 00:05:15,909 Speaker 1: Book of Mormon. 101 00:05:16,029 --> 00:05:18,829 Speaker 4: Yes, brings knowledge. 102 00:05:18,429 --> 00:05:20,709 Speaker 1: To this, and it makes sense that therefore it would 103 00:05:20,709 --> 00:05:23,949 Speaker 1: be more comfortable with capitalism. So is this show about 104 00:05:23,989 --> 00:05:27,869 Speaker 1: them sort of performing their purity on social media because 105 00:05:27,909 --> 00:05:28,789 Speaker 1: that sounds a bit boring. 106 00:05:29,029 --> 00:05:33,149 Speaker 2: Well, I think that it's about the hypocrisy. And I 107 00:05:33,149 --> 00:05:35,949 Speaker 2: suppose this is what makes it an interesting rich text 108 00:05:35,989 --> 00:05:38,069 Speaker 2: on social is that we know what the doctrine says, 109 00:05:38,069 --> 00:05:40,869 Speaker 2: and we know what the Bible says, and then you've 110 00:05:40,909 --> 00:05:43,949 Speaker 2: got people putting botox in their face, or drinking lots 111 00:05:43,989 --> 00:05:47,069 Speaker 2: of soft drink or doing. 112 00:05:46,349 --> 00:05:50,429 Speaker 1: Lots of soft drinksh my god, this is crazy talk Jersey. 113 00:05:50,869 --> 00:05:52,069 Speaker 4: Or doing certain drugs. 114 00:05:52,109 --> 00:05:57,109 Speaker 2: It's like the loopholes that they find while also looking stunning. 115 00:05:57,789 --> 00:06:00,069 Speaker 2: And also I read this line in The Atlantic recently 116 00:06:00,109 --> 00:06:02,869 Speaker 2: that said America loves mothers more than it loves women, 117 00:06:03,509 --> 00:06:07,629 Speaker 2: and I thought, there's something about these Mormon mothers that 118 00:06:07,669 --> 00:06:11,069 Speaker 2: we find particularly aspirational. If you're that, then you get 119 00:06:11,109 --> 00:06:14,589 Speaker 2: a lot more license to sort of muck around with 120 00:06:14,989 --> 00:06:17,629 Speaker 2: the other stuff. But it does make it addictive. 121 00:06:18,349 --> 00:06:22,909 Speaker 1: I also read that there's a whole subplot of something 122 00:06:22,909 --> 00:06:24,069 Speaker 1: called soft swinging. 123 00:06:24,469 --> 00:06:27,789 Speaker 4: Yes, and I don't think they mean playgrounds. 124 00:06:27,549 --> 00:06:30,949 Speaker 2: No, no. And I think that it's like there are rules, 125 00:06:31,029 --> 00:06:32,629 Speaker 2: but they're weird rules. 126 00:06:32,429 --> 00:06:35,429 Speaker 1: Right, And I think part of this also, I agree 127 00:06:35,509 --> 00:06:38,589 Speaker 1: completely on the tadwife element, and it so speaks to 128 00:06:38,629 --> 00:06:41,269 Speaker 1: the anxieties of our times and not knowing whether the 129 00:06:41,389 --> 00:06:43,949 Speaker 1: robot overlords are going to take over, that we're all 130 00:06:44,029 --> 00:06:46,829 Speaker 1: diving deep on people who are perfecting their bread recipes. 131 00:06:46,869 --> 00:06:49,789 Speaker 1: But the soft swinging, I think is also part of 132 00:06:49,829 --> 00:06:54,469 Speaker 1: an exploration of polyamory that is happening amongst elder millennials 133 00:06:54,549 --> 00:06:55,309 Speaker 1: right now. 134 00:06:55,469 --> 00:06:56,509 Speaker 4: Oh so true. 135 00:06:56,869 --> 00:06:59,549 Speaker 2: And that's the thing is that Mormon wife slash Mormon 136 00:06:59,589 --> 00:07:02,869 Speaker 2: women are mothers, but they get to be sexy, and 137 00:07:02,909 --> 00:07:06,149 Speaker 2: we'd all like to still be a bit sexy. But 138 00:07:06,309 --> 00:07:09,869 Speaker 2: this vision of motherhood that we've been left with is 139 00:07:10,189 --> 00:07:15,069 Speaker 2: kind of like your asexual, your drab. And so there 140 00:07:15,149 --> 00:07:17,669 Speaker 2: is something that feels almost aspirational, being like, look at 141 00:07:17,669 --> 00:07:20,469 Speaker 2: their incredible sex lives. Yes, and they're pretty and they're 142 00:07:20,469 --> 00:07:21,109 Speaker 2: great mums. 143 00:07:21,189 --> 00:07:22,949 Speaker 4: It's prairie addressment. Make it sexy. 144 00:07:23,109 --> 00:07:27,389 Speaker 1: It makes total sense to me. Now, are grandparents underperforming? 145 00:07:27,629 --> 00:07:30,549 Speaker 1: It's time for a performance review. A recent article in 146 00:07:30,589 --> 00:07:34,509 Speaker 1: The Atlantic unpacks a sentiment amongst millennials that their parents 147 00:07:34,549 --> 00:07:37,269 Speaker 1: are not chipping in enough to help with their families. 148 00:07:37,869 --> 00:07:41,429 Speaker 1: But then it argues that contrary to that perception, grandparents 149 00:07:41,469 --> 00:07:43,589 Speaker 1: are doing a lot. They're doing more than ever. In fact, 150 00:07:43,669 --> 00:07:47,469 Speaker 1: we're in the era of something called peak grandparenting. Let 151 00:07:47,469 --> 00:07:49,749 Speaker 1: me outline this argument because I'm very curious to see 152 00:07:49,749 --> 00:07:52,909 Speaker 1: whether you agree, Jesse. It argues that parents struggle has 153 00:07:52,909 --> 00:07:57,029 Speaker 1: become grandparents struggle because grandparents now aren't just the disciplinarians 154 00:07:57,069 --> 00:07:58,869 Speaker 1: or the playmates that they used to be, but they're 155 00:07:58,949 --> 00:08:02,709 Speaker 1: co parents and a sociologists quoted in the article says 156 00:08:02,709 --> 00:08:04,469 Speaker 1: that the grandparents fall into three categories. 157 00:08:04,549 --> 00:08:06,749 Speaker 4: You're ready for them. Yes, there are those who. 158 00:08:06,589 --> 00:08:09,509 Speaker 1: Look for every opportunity to look after their grandkids. Those 159 00:08:09,549 --> 00:08:10,989 Speaker 1: people are called Anne Stevens. 160 00:08:11,109 --> 00:08:14,669 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly right. That is my mother to a tea. 161 00:08:15,189 --> 00:08:17,709 Speaker 1: Second category, those who don't want to do any care 162 00:08:17,709 --> 00:08:20,469 Speaker 1: of grandkids. I don't actually know many grandparents who fit 163 00:08:20,509 --> 00:08:20,949 Speaker 1: this description. 164 00:08:21,069 --> 00:08:21,909 Speaker 2: I do, and we'll get to them. 165 00:08:21,989 --> 00:08:22,789 Speaker 4: Okay, good, Yeah. 166 00:08:22,829 --> 00:08:25,189 Speaker 1: And a third category, which I really that's what I 167 00:08:25,189 --> 00:08:27,509 Speaker 1: want to talk about today, is grandparents who want to 168 00:08:27,549 --> 00:08:32,029 Speaker 1: be involved, but they also want to set boundaries. Some 169 00:08:32,069 --> 00:08:35,149 Speaker 1: strategies that these grandparents try. They commit only to doing 170 00:08:35,269 --> 00:08:37,549 Speaker 1: fun things with the kids. That means no dentist visits, 171 00:08:37,549 --> 00:08:41,309 Speaker 1: no math tutoring, just the fun stuff. They semi regularly 172 00:08:41,349 --> 00:08:44,309 Speaker 1: ignore their adult child's calls, and they help out only 173 00:08:44,349 --> 00:08:48,789 Speaker 1: on certain days. And they do this because they're tie it. 174 00:08:48,789 --> 00:08:51,429 Speaker 1: It's only very recently that we've developed this idea that 175 00:08:51,469 --> 00:08:55,069 Speaker 1: grandparents should be always available and oh yeah, looking back 176 00:08:55,109 --> 00:08:57,509 Speaker 1: on my childhood in the nineties, I realized that was true. 177 00:08:57,549 --> 00:09:00,749 Speaker 1: It's a very recent phenomenon. It's basically happened for reasons 178 00:09:00,789 --> 00:09:02,909 Speaker 1: you might expect. A lot more people are working outside 179 00:09:02,949 --> 00:09:07,069 Speaker 1: the home now, parenting itself has intensified and people are 180 00:09:07,069 --> 00:09:11,069 Speaker 1: living longer. So Jesse, what do you make of this 181 00:09:11,229 --> 00:09:13,909 Speaker 1: rise of grandparenting as a full time job? And what 182 00:09:13,909 --> 00:09:16,149 Speaker 1: do you say to these grandparents? You say, I love 183 00:09:16,229 --> 00:09:18,789 Speaker 1: to be around my grandchildren, but I also need my 184 00:09:18,869 --> 00:09:19,389 Speaker 1: me time. 185 00:09:19,869 --> 00:09:21,869 Speaker 2: I worry about the ones who don't have the guts 186 00:09:21,909 --> 00:09:23,749 Speaker 2: to say that, because I think that you can easily 187 00:09:23,749 --> 00:09:27,269 Speaker 2: be exploited and then feel very exploited. But we talk 188 00:09:27,309 --> 00:09:31,029 Speaker 2: about the Sandwich generation, right, the generation that has elderly 189 00:09:31,389 --> 00:09:36,109 Speaker 2: parents who might require care and kids. But now there's 190 00:09:36,229 --> 00:09:39,629 Speaker 2: like a club Sandwich generation, which is that those kids 191 00:09:39,629 --> 00:09:43,989 Speaker 2: have grandkids. So they're kind of smushed between these three generations. 192 00:09:44,389 --> 00:09:46,549 Speaker 2: And let's be honest who we're talking about here. Are 193 00:09:46,589 --> 00:09:49,229 Speaker 2: we talking about grandparents or are we talking about grandmothers? 194 00:09:49,709 --> 00:09:52,749 Speaker 2: Because the economy relies in order for mothers to go 195 00:09:52,829 --> 00:09:56,069 Speaker 2: back to work, they require their mothers or their in 196 00:09:56,149 --> 00:10:00,709 Speaker 2: laws to give up some paid work, to give up, 197 00:10:00,749 --> 00:10:05,269 Speaker 2: whether it's exercise, whether it's socializing, all of those things 198 00:10:05,309 --> 00:10:09,109 Speaker 2: which are like sacrifices after having done that for a 199 00:10:09,149 --> 00:10:12,709 Speaker 2: period of lives, which is a big ask. So I 200 00:10:12,709 --> 00:10:15,269 Speaker 2: think that the economy and I remember, I think it 201 00:10:15,309 --> 00:10:17,589 Speaker 2: was last year jd Vance was being asked about the 202 00:10:17,629 --> 00:10:21,069 Speaker 2: situation in the US and he said, maybe grandparents could 203 00:10:21,109 --> 00:10:25,029 Speaker 2: step up more. So you want them to fill holes 204 00:10:25,069 --> 00:10:28,509 Speaker 2: in the economy or the fact that childcare is prohibitively expensive, 205 00:10:28,869 --> 00:10:32,069 Speaker 2: or that every family requires two parents to be working 206 00:10:32,109 --> 00:10:35,149 Speaker 2: pretty close to full time. You're then relying on the 207 00:10:35,229 --> 00:10:40,309 Speaker 2: unpaid work of this generation. I think it's about how 208 00:10:40,389 --> 00:10:45,109 Speaker 2: much of it is a choice, right, because in some situations, 209 00:10:45,189 --> 00:10:47,509 Speaker 2: if you've got a mum who says we can't pay 210 00:10:47,509 --> 00:10:51,189 Speaker 2: the bills unless I go back five days, and you 211 00:10:51,429 --> 00:10:55,469 Speaker 2: have someone in their seventies doing five days a week 212 00:10:55,669 --> 00:10:59,149 Speaker 2: like that is an enormous ask. And I don't think 213 00:10:59,189 --> 00:11:03,509 Speaker 2: culturally we've decided yet whether child rearing is work or not. 214 00:11:03,709 --> 00:11:06,229 Speaker 2: Like I think that our conception of work is really 215 00:11:06,349 --> 00:11:11,589 Speaker 2: like confused to an extent. That's so true your relationship 216 00:11:11,709 --> 00:11:13,709 Speaker 2: like with your parents and help. 217 00:11:14,149 --> 00:11:19,309 Speaker 1: Well, this article really opened my mind because I moved 218 00:11:19,549 --> 00:11:24,069 Speaker 1: from the US back to Australia last year in part 219 00:11:24,149 --> 00:11:26,709 Speaker 1: because I wanted to spend more time with my parents, 220 00:11:26,789 --> 00:11:28,669 Speaker 1: and I wanted my children to spend more time with 221 00:11:28,709 --> 00:11:32,909 Speaker 1: my parents. And that has been such a rich and 222 00:11:32,989 --> 00:11:36,909 Speaker 1: rewarding experience, I think for all parties, and I think 223 00:11:36,909 --> 00:11:40,309 Speaker 1: for all parties, it has also been a challenging experience. 224 00:11:40,509 --> 00:11:44,909 Speaker 1: It's been both those things in part because my parents 225 00:11:44,949 --> 00:11:46,669 Speaker 1: have had to make trade offs. I don't want to 226 00:11:46,669 --> 00:11:50,549 Speaker 1: speak for them, but I can see and observe that, yes, 227 00:11:50,669 --> 00:11:54,349 Speaker 1: they have gained the company and the friendship with their 228 00:11:54,349 --> 00:11:57,669 Speaker 1: grandchildren that is so special, which can't be nurtured in 229 00:11:58,189 --> 00:12:01,829 Speaker 1: once a year trips. But they've also had to give 230 00:12:01,869 --> 00:12:04,509 Speaker 1: some things up. So the first and biggest thing they've 231 00:12:04,509 --> 00:12:06,869 Speaker 1: had to give up is they're retired. They used to 232 00:12:06,949 --> 00:12:09,909 Speaker 1: enjoy traveling. They kind of feel like they can't travel 233 00:12:09,909 --> 00:12:13,229 Speaker 1: like they used to now because I need them because 234 00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:17,269 Speaker 1: both my partner and I work full time, and although 235 00:12:17,269 --> 00:12:19,629 Speaker 1: both my children are in school, there's just so many 236 00:12:19,709 --> 00:12:22,749 Speaker 1: cracks that you have to paper over or stand over. 237 00:12:22,829 --> 00:12:25,549 Speaker 1: And so, for instance, anytime one of my kids is sick, 238 00:12:26,429 --> 00:12:29,709 Speaker 1: I call them, and I hate doing that because when 239 00:12:29,709 --> 00:12:32,789 Speaker 1: it comes to planned social events, I never call them. 240 00:12:32,869 --> 00:12:35,069 Speaker 1: I have a little bit of a rule, which is 241 00:12:35,069 --> 00:12:38,149 Speaker 1: that if I'm doing something fun, I have to get 242 00:12:38,189 --> 00:12:41,909 Speaker 1: a babysitter because it's not fair to use them as 243 00:12:42,029 --> 00:12:46,189 Speaker 1: just sort of unpaid labor sitting around my place while 244 00:12:46,189 --> 00:12:47,949 Speaker 1: my kids are asleep. I want them to be able 245 00:12:47,949 --> 00:12:50,629 Speaker 1: to do fun things with them and to develop their relationship, 246 00:12:50,749 --> 00:12:53,429 Speaker 1: and doing bed time not fun, not to developing in 247 00:12:53,469 --> 00:12:56,189 Speaker 1: a relationship. So I get babysitters for that. But when 248 00:12:56,229 --> 00:12:58,429 Speaker 1: they're sick it's and have to come home from school, 249 00:12:58,549 --> 00:13:01,909 Speaker 1: I do have to call them because I've got to 250 00:13:02,149 --> 00:13:05,669 Speaker 1: make money and do my job. So I'm aware that 251 00:13:05,669 --> 00:13:07,909 Speaker 1: that means that, for instance, my mom might want to 252 00:13:07,949 --> 00:13:10,629 Speaker 1: go to her exercise class as you men, or my 253 00:13:10,749 --> 00:13:13,389 Speaker 1: dad might want to do his projects, and then they 254 00:13:13,429 --> 00:13:16,829 Speaker 1: have to drop them to pick up the kids from school. Yeah, 255 00:13:16,869 --> 00:13:20,069 Speaker 1: and that sense of freedom that is being sacrificed, I 256 00:13:20,109 --> 00:13:22,909 Speaker 1: think is real. And I really loved that this piece 257 00:13:23,109 --> 00:13:26,829 Speaker 1: articulated that in a non judgmental way, because I think 258 00:13:26,869 --> 00:13:30,349 Speaker 1: this is a conversation we're only just beginning to have and. 259 00:13:30,389 --> 00:13:33,069 Speaker 2: Just because you love someone doesn't mean it's not work. 260 00:13:33,389 --> 00:13:35,669 Speaker 2: And there was some really good points. I think it 261 00:13:35,709 --> 00:13:37,869 Speaker 2: was in this article. It might have been another one 262 00:13:37,909 --> 00:13:40,589 Speaker 2: that was more Australian focused, and it was saying that 263 00:13:40,629 --> 00:13:43,469 Speaker 2: one in three grandparents in Australia help out with childcare. 264 00:13:43,989 --> 00:13:47,949 Speaker 2: But there's been studies done about grandparents and life expectancy 265 00:13:48,189 --> 00:13:52,269 Speaker 2: and how it really helps with cognition, really helps with 266 00:13:52,389 --> 00:13:57,229 Speaker 2: not feeling lonely, and how those connections can give you know, 267 00:13:57,429 --> 00:13:59,749 Speaker 2: some people are totally new lease on life. 268 00:13:59,829 --> 00:14:01,829 Speaker 1: And yet when I throw this back at my parents, 269 00:14:01,949 --> 00:14:03,429 Speaker 1: this is helping with your cognition. 270 00:14:03,829 --> 00:14:08,069 Speaker 2: Exactly, I'm giving you ten extree years. I've given you purpose. 271 00:14:08,589 --> 00:14:11,949 Speaker 2: But on the other and I was speaking to a 272 00:14:11,989 --> 00:14:17,669 Speaker 2: family friend recently who said that she moved cities so 273 00:14:17,709 --> 00:14:20,309 Speaker 2: that she couldn't be asked because she was starting to 274 00:14:20,349 --> 00:14:23,389 Speaker 2: feel so trapped by the expectations. And I think she 275 00:14:23,469 --> 00:14:26,509 Speaker 2: was in a bind because you offer child one a 276 00:14:26,549 --> 00:14:28,709 Speaker 2: certain level of care, so you go, I'll look after 277 00:14:28,709 --> 00:14:31,829 Speaker 2: them a day a week, But then their second child comes, 278 00:14:31,869 --> 00:14:33,749 Speaker 2: maybe their third child comes, But then what if they 279 00:14:33,749 --> 00:14:36,189 Speaker 2: got siblings and then you've got seven and you're like, 280 00:14:36,309 --> 00:14:39,389 Speaker 2: I'm doing fourteen days a week with children, yep, And 281 00:14:39,789 --> 00:14:42,829 Speaker 2: I don't have the retirement that I wanted. I don't 282 00:14:42,869 --> 00:14:44,909 Speaker 2: have any of the freedom. And then I think it 283 00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:47,989 Speaker 2: also puts adult children who are adult parents in a 284 00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:51,629 Speaker 2: situation of going. Maybe they feel entitled to that privilege. 285 00:14:51,669 --> 00:14:53,869 Speaker 2: Like I know, I'm not sure what your experience is, 286 00:14:53,869 --> 00:14:56,509 Speaker 2: but when I speak to friends about I'm almost self 287 00:14:56,549 --> 00:14:58,789 Speaker 2: conscious about how much help I get because I know 288 00:14:58,989 --> 00:15:02,069 Speaker 2: that it is such a privilege and not everyone is 289 00:15:02,109 --> 00:15:05,509 Speaker 2: afforded it. Either. They have lost their parents, and this 290 00:15:05,549 --> 00:15:08,149 Speaker 2: is a particularly difficult time to feel that loss because 291 00:15:08,189 --> 00:15:10,589 Speaker 2: they know their parents would have loved to their parents 292 00:15:10,669 --> 00:15:14,909 Speaker 2: can't due to disability due to mobility issues, or their 293 00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:17,869 Speaker 2: parents don't want to, and that stinks. 294 00:15:18,429 --> 00:15:19,749 Speaker 4: Yeah, it must be hard. 295 00:15:19,909 --> 00:15:24,789 Speaker 1: I'm curious for you because you do have two grandmothers who, 296 00:15:24,909 --> 00:15:28,589 Speaker 1: by all accounts pretty enthusiastic about the task. Yeah, but 297 00:15:29,349 --> 00:15:31,429 Speaker 1: that must put a bit of pressure on you to 298 00:15:31,749 --> 00:15:33,949 Speaker 1: just be a little aware of how much you're asking 299 00:15:33,989 --> 00:15:35,909 Speaker 1: them to do. You know, they're never going to say no. 300 00:15:36,189 --> 00:15:39,309 Speaker 1: You know they're always going to express delight about being asked. 301 00:15:39,429 --> 00:15:41,629 Speaker 1: But do you have to therefore second guess how much 302 00:15:41,669 --> 00:15:42,709 Speaker 1: you're asking them to do? 303 00:15:42,909 --> 00:15:46,029 Speaker 2: Yes, And the big one has been my twin sister 304 00:15:46,069 --> 00:15:49,429 Speaker 2: had a baby five months after me, So we now 305 00:15:49,869 --> 00:15:52,549 Speaker 2: constantly check in and go how many days I've got 306 00:15:52,589 --> 00:15:54,869 Speaker 2: to coordinate, We've got to coordinate because mom A's not 307 00:15:54,869 --> 00:15:56,789 Speaker 2: going to tell us, and so I got no, she's 308 00:15:56,829 --> 00:15:59,349 Speaker 2: not doing five days between us. She'll do one day 309 00:15:59,349 --> 00:16:02,109 Speaker 2: with me and maybe she'll do one or two days 310 00:16:02,109 --> 00:16:04,789 Speaker 2: with you. But I know her exercise class is on 311 00:16:04,829 --> 00:16:07,589 Speaker 2: a fast and we are not asking her. We're very 312 00:16:07,629 --> 00:16:11,469 Speaker 2: careful about that because we want to protect her because 313 00:16:11,509 --> 00:16:14,669 Speaker 2: if we ask, she will say yes. And that relationship, 314 00:16:14,989 --> 00:16:19,389 Speaker 2: like watching my daughter's relationship with her two grandmothers is 315 00:16:19,389 --> 00:16:21,349 Speaker 2: one of the greatest jows of my life. Like it is, 316 00:16:21,749 --> 00:16:24,189 Speaker 2: oh my god, they love each other so so much, 317 00:16:24,669 --> 00:16:27,589 Speaker 2: but you're also like you need a break. 318 00:16:27,309 --> 00:16:28,309 Speaker 4: Yeah, they need rest. 319 00:16:28,789 --> 00:16:31,789 Speaker 1: One thing I thought was really interesting is that there 320 00:16:31,869 --> 00:16:34,069 Speaker 1: was a study done in twenty twenty one of British 321 00:16:34,109 --> 00:16:37,669 Speaker 1: grandmothers and apparently all these British grandmothers were like, why 322 00:16:37,709 --> 00:16:40,629 Speaker 1: do I have to supervise these children on everything? They 323 00:16:40,629 --> 00:16:42,949 Speaker 1: were like, I've got to supervise their homework, I've got 324 00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:46,029 Speaker 1: to provide them with educational activities, and all of them 325 00:16:46,029 --> 00:16:50,349 Speaker 1: were taken aback by how intensified grandparenting has become. 326 00:16:50,749 --> 00:16:53,389 Speaker 2: I've had to go My sister and I have talked 327 00:16:53,389 --> 00:16:55,589 Speaker 2: about this. When they are in the care of grandparents. 328 00:16:55,629 --> 00:16:57,389 Speaker 2: I think it's different. If it's paid. I think it's 329 00:16:57,429 --> 00:16:59,789 Speaker 2: different if it's someone who's babysit whatever. 330 00:17:00,029 --> 00:17:02,029 Speaker 4: Then you can just tell them exactly what you want. 331 00:17:02,189 --> 00:17:05,029 Speaker 2: What you want, and there's a really clear exchange going on. 332 00:17:05,309 --> 00:17:08,589 Speaker 2: But when it is family, and you also know that 333 00:17:08,629 --> 00:17:10,749 Speaker 2: they raise their own kids like they do have a 334 00:17:10,789 --> 00:17:14,029 Speaker 2: good cv, you just go, is your rules? Like I 335 00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:16,709 Speaker 2: called Mum the other day and it was ten am 336 00:17:16,789 --> 00:17:18,429 Speaker 2: and Luna had a bickie in each hand in this 337 00:17:18,549 --> 00:17:19,829 Speaker 2: movie and I just went. 338 00:17:19,869 --> 00:17:20,589 Speaker 4: Wait, no, there was. 339 00:17:22,549 --> 00:17:26,629 Speaker 2: Between her eggs. It was the gross motor skills. That's 340 00:17:26,629 --> 00:17:27,509 Speaker 2: what Grandma's teaching. 341 00:17:27,509 --> 00:17:30,229 Speaker 1: Are you truly able to surrender control like that? 342 00:17:30,509 --> 00:17:32,749 Speaker 2: I am in that situation. There are moments where it's 343 00:17:32,749 --> 00:17:35,389 Speaker 2: hard because I go, when she's with me, she's not 344 00:17:35,389 --> 00:17:39,109 Speaker 2: getting bikie's, But I go, it's my rules when I'm 345 00:17:39,149 --> 00:17:41,349 Speaker 2: looking after her and the grandparents, and maybe it's my 346 00:17:41,469 --> 00:17:44,269 Speaker 2: Nan lived with me growing up, and interestingly, I didn't 347 00:17:44,269 --> 00:17:46,549 Speaker 2: feel like she was a parent in that she didn't 348 00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:50,669 Speaker 2: that supervision, that do your homework, There was never that, 349 00:17:51,109 --> 00:17:54,589 Speaker 2: But she was just this presence, a companion I thought 350 00:17:54,709 --> 00:17:56,829 Speaker 2: Nan was. And I laughed with Mum sometimes I go. 351 00:17:57,229 --> 00:17:59,109 Speaker 2: Luna thinks you're just a friend who comes over. She 352 00:17:59,109 --> 00:17:59,949 Speaker 2: doesn't know it's care. 353 00:18:00,389 --> 00:18:02,709 Speaker 1: I am so glad you raised this, because I think 354 00:18:02,789 --> 00:18:05,829 Speaker 1: this is the other thing that has changed over the generations. 355 00:18:05,909 --> 00:18:08,709 Speaker 1: I also had my grandmother living with us for much 356 00:18:08,709 --> 00:18:11,269 Speaker 1: of the time, and she and I were really good friends. 357 00:18:12,029 --> 00:18:14,549 Speaker 1: And she did not supervise my homework. She cut up 358 00:18:14,589 --> 00:18:18,109 Speaker 1: cubes of cheese for me to watch the Barcelona Olympics. Yes, 359 00:18:18,189 --> 00:18:20,749 Speaker 1: I am that old. And then get smart always gets 360 00:18:21,469 --> 00:18:22,429 Speaker 1: in the afternoon. 361 00:18:22,469 --> 00:18:26,229 Speaker 2: Mash did you ever have mash onsh The Burjoe's catchphrase 362 00:18:26,309 --> 00:18:28,589 Speaker 2: was the other one? And I loved old people. 363 00:18:28,989 --> 00:18:31,229 Speaker 1: Loved them, and I'd eat my cubes of cheese and 364 00:18:31,229 --> 00:18:34,309 Speaker 1: then she make me cupcakes. She wasn't providing me with 365 00:18:34,389 --> 00:18:37,349 Speaker 1: any educational resources now. She wasn't even saying you should 366 00:18:37,349 --> 00:18:40,069 Speaker 1: really do your piano practice. That fell to my mother. 367 00:18:40,589 --> 00:18:43,109 Speaker 1: And yet I think now I do have this sort 368 00:18:43,109 --> 00:18:44,789 Speaker 1: of expectation. 369 00:18:44,509 --> 00:18:46,789 Speaker 4: That my parents are going to, for instance, tell my 370 00:18:46,869 --> 00:18:50,389 Speaker 4: son to do his piano practice. And why did that happen? Yeah, 371 00:18:50,389 --> 00:18:51,029 Speaker 4: that's so true. 372 00:18:51,109 --> 00:18:53,549 Speaker 2: I think that we became more intensive and with that, 373 00:18:53,589 --> 00:18:56,269 Speaker 2: we're projecting it because we're more anxious but I notice 374 00:18:56,309 --> 00:18:58,429 Speaker 2: it with my mum. Sometimes my daughter will be doing 375 00:18:58,429 --> 00:19:00,149 Speaker 2: something and Mum will walk me out the front door 376 00:19:00,189 --> 00:19:02,549 Speaker 2: and will be standing on the thing, and I'm like, mate, 377 00:19:02,549 --> 00:19:07,069 Speaker 2: who's watching Luna? Like I'm so intense in that situation. 378 00:19:07,149 --> 00:19:09,309 Speaker 2: But I go, you raised two sets of twins. Yeah, 379 00:19:09,469 --> 00:19:12,429 Speaker 2: we got out of it somehow, and I think she'll 380 00:19:12,429 --> 00:19:15,629 Speaker 2: be fine. There was an article published in The Guardian 381 00:19:15,709 --> 00:19:19,589 Speaker 2: last month that I inhaled. It was so beautifully written 382 00:19:19,789 --> 00:19:23,549 Speaker 2: and so rich with insights and detail about one of 383 00:19:23,549 --> 00:19:25,629 Speaker 2: the most difficult things a parent could ever go through. 384 00:19:26,029 --> 00:19:26,629 Speaker 4: And it's funny. 385 00:19:26,669 --> 00:19:30,869 Speaker 2: I often actively avoid this content, but this was going around. 386 00:19:30,869 --> 00:19:32,269 Speaker 2: My sister sent it to me and told me I 387 00:19:32,269 --> 00:19:34,629 Speaker 2: had to read it, and once I started, I couldn't 388 00:19:34,749 --> 00:19:37,709 Speaker 2: put it down. It was stunning. The story was written 389 00:19:37,709 --> 00:19:40,669 Speaker 2: by Archie Bland and it's called The Boy Who Came Back, 390 00:19:40,749 --> 00:19:43,749 Speaker 2: The Near Death and Changed Life of my son Max, 391 00:19:44,189 --> 00:19:46,749 Speaker 2: and it tells the story of how when Archie's son 392 00:19:46,829 --> 00:19:50,629 Speaker 2: Max was seven weeks old, he stopped breathing in his sleep. 393 00:19:50,869 --> 00:19:54,909 Speaker 2: It was described as an interrupted sid's situation is what 394 00:19:54,949 --> 00:19:57,749 Speaker 2: they think happened. They had a night nanny at the time. 395 00:19:57,949 --> 00:20:00,989 Speaker 2: Her name is Gina, who realized he'd gone quiet, ran 396 00:20:00,989 --> 00:20:04,309 Speaker 2: into his parents and they immediately called an ambulance. Against 397 00:20:04,309 --> 00:20:07,509 Speaker 2: the odds, he was revived and as a result, Max 398 00:20:07,589 --> 00:20:10,389 Speaker 2: lives with a disability. It's unclear he's not yet too 399 00:20:11,029 --> 00:20:14,029 Speaker 2: how this will impact him going forward. They know he 400 00:20:14,149 --> 00:20:18,589 Speaker 2: has cerebral palsy, which impacts speech and gross motor function 401 00:20:19,389 --> 00:20:22,469 Speaker 2: amelia separately. Without us even discussing it, you had also 402 00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:27,469 Speaker 2: read this article. What do you think it was that 403 00:20:27,989 --> 00:20:30,989 Speaker 2: resonated with people so much and made it so deeply 404 00:20:31,149 --> 00:20:31,909 Speaker 2: kind of affecting. 405 00:20:32,229 --> 00:20:34,669 Speaker 1: There are so many things in this piece that we 406 00:20:34,749 --> 00:20:39,069 Speaker 1: could talk about for hours. One aspect of it that 407 00:20:39,109 --> 00:20:42,709 Speaker 1: I want to talk about is the social impacts and 408 00:20:42,749 --> 00:20:47,829 Speaker 1: effects of having a sick child, because it's not the 409 00:20:47,909 --> 00:20:51,709 Speaker 1: same as arching his family. Every situation is, of course different, 410 00:20:51,789 --> 00:20:54,589 Speaker 1: but having had a child in hospital for an extended period, 411 00:20:54,669 --> 00:20:57,709 Speaker 1: there were parts which really resonated with me. What I 412 00:20:57,989 --> 00:21:01,869 Speaker 1: found interesting about it was how isolating it was, because 413 00:21:01,909 --> 00:21:04,149 Speaker 1: you'd think that when you have a child in the hospital, 414 00:21:04,309 --> 00:21:06,669 Speaker 1: everyone rallies around, and yes they did. You know, there 415 00:21:06,669 --> 00:21:10,189 Speaker 1: were meal trains, people were constantly checking in with me. 416 00:21:10,669 --> 00:21:14,029 Speaker 1: It's not that people didn't care, but it's that no 417 00:21:14,069 --> 00:21:17,229 Speaker 1: one knows what to say, and the fact is that 418 00:21:17,309 --> 00:21:19,549 Speaker 1: nothing anyone says is the right thing. 419 00:21:19,549 --> 00:21:24,989 Speaker 2: And in fact, a misstep or a clumsy statement does 420 00:21:25,109 --> 00:21:27,789 Speaker 2: so much harm that I think that people get scared. 421 00:21:27,829 --> 00:21:29,869 Speaker 2: And that's what I found in this, And maybe I 422 00:21:29,909 --> 00:21:32,709 Speaker 2: looked at why I read it, and I think I've 423 00:21:32,709 --> 00:21:36,389 Speaker 2: had friends in that situation with sick kids, go through awful, 424 00:21:36,429 --> 00:21:39,749 Speaker 2: awful trauma of all different kinds, and you do the 425 00:21:39,749 --> 00:21:42,189 Speaker 2: gymnastics of trying to find the right thing to say. 426 00:21:42,269 --> 00:21:45,429 Speaker 2: And I was looking through this going I found it 427 00:21:45,509 --> 00:21:49,229 Speaker 2: really interesting what was the wrong thing to say? And 428 00:21:49,269 --> 00:21:52,669 Speaker 2: also he said so early on in the piece, basically, 429 00:21:53,349 --> 00:21:55,229 Speaker 2: I don't want to be the story that you look 430 00:21:55,269 --> 00:21:58,109 Speaker 2: at that then makes you really grateful for your own kids. 431 00:21:58,109 --> 00:21:59,229 Speaker 2: That's really irritating. 432 00:21:59,349 --> 00:22:02,069 Speaker 1: Don't pull out the aphorisms, don't say things to him like, well, 433 00:22:02,069 --> 00:22:04,549 Speaker 1: I'm gonna hug my own children tighter tonight. 434 00:22:04,589 --> 00:22:05,149 Speaker 4: I hate that. 435 00:22:05,229 --> 00:22:07,989 Speaker 2: I hate that. I suppose there's a truth in that 436 00:22:07,989 --> 00:22:11,349 Speaker 2: that whenever we consume things about parenting or kids, we're 437 00:22:11,349 --> 00:22:15,109 Speaker 2: always seeing our one. It's empathy, but it also almost 438 00:22:15,149 --> 00:22:19,949 Speaker 2: dehumanizes his own son. And I found he had a 439 00:22:19,949 --> 00:22:23,909 Speaker 2: few things that people said to him, like comparing going, oh, well, 440 00:22:23,949 --> 00:22:26,149 Speaker 2: you know, my son was really slow to sit. 441 00:22:26,109 --> 00:22:29,469 Speaker 1: Up, or like my son's just forever throwing his porridge 442 00:22:29,509 --> 00:22:31,829 Speaker 1: around the room. Yeah, he's a mess too. 443 00:22:31,989 --> 00:22:34,629 Speaker 2: As though it's the same when it absolutely isn't. But 444 00:22:34,669 --> 00:22:36,349 Speaker 2: I had someone close to me with a child in 445 00:22:36,429 --> 00:22:39,469 Speaker 2: hospital for a time recently. And again I'm not saying 446 00:22:39,469 --> 00:22:42,149 Speaker 2: that this is comparable or it's the same situation as 447 00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:45,309 Speaker 2: the one depicted in the article. But the power of 448 00:22:45,309 --> 00:22:48,349 Speaker 2: this piece is that some of the things Archie describes 449 00:22:48,629 --> 00:22:52,109 Speaker 2: so beautifully did feel really familiar, and I hadn't seen 450 00:22:52,149 --> 00:22:54,789 Speaker 2: words around them before. It's interesting what you say that 451 00:22:54,829 --> 00:23:00,389 Speaker 2: there's people rally, but your focus is so singular, and 452 00:23:00,989 --> 00:23:03,869 Speaker 2: I don't think there's anything like it. You are not sleeping, 453 00:23:04,069 --> 00:23:06,989 Speaker 2: you have no appetite. It is hell on earth, and 454 00:23:07,029 --> 00:23:10,469 Speaker 2: even being in that environment is hell on earth. Like 455 00:23:10,949 --> 00:23:14,509 Speaker 2: to be in an environment with other sick kids is awful. 456 00:23:14,589 --> 00:23:18,069 Speaker 2: And so to have him describe it, he described the 457 00:23:18,189 --> 00:23:20,229 Speaker 2: orbits of like you walk out of the hospital and 458 00:23:20,269 --> 00:23:22,509 Speaker 2: still people understand this is around a hospital, this is 459 00:23:22,589 --> 00:23:26,669 Speaker 2: like serious shit. But then you go into the quote 460 00:23:26,749 --> 00:23:29,709 Speaker 2: unquote real world and there's just fury because it's like, 461 00:23:29,829 --> 00:23:32,869 Speaker 2: you have no idea, how can you go? 462 00:23:33,189 --> 00:23:33,509 Speaker 4: Yeah. 463 00:23:33,549 --> 00:23:35,989 Speaker 1: So basically this happened in twenty twenty, and for that 464 00:23:36,349 --> 00:23:39,789 Speaker 1: entire year, I was very aware of the fact that 465 00:23:39,909 --> 00:23:44,549 Speaker 1: I was pushing my friends away because anytime they tried 466 00:23:44,589 --> 00:23:47,749 Speaker 1: to reach out, I was filled with anger and resentment 467 00:23:47,789 --> 00:23:51,389 Speaker 1: that they didn't know what I'd gone through, couldn't understand 468 00:23:51,429 --> 00:23:53,389 Speaker 1: what I'd gone through. My life was so much harder 469 00:23:53,429 --> 00:23:56,389 Speaker 1: than theirs, and I was just furious at them. And 470 00:23:56,429 --> 00:23:58,789 Speaker 1: he pulls out a few things that people said that 471 00:23:58,909 --> 00:24:02,709 Speaker 1: really bothered him. So, for instance, one that really got 472 00:24:02,709 --> 00:24:04,669 Speaker 1: to me was that he said, don't tell me that 473 00:24:04,749 --> 00:24:07,629 Speaker 1: this is scary. Oh, how scary this must be for 474 00:24:07,709 --> 00:24:10,309 Speaker 1: you to have your kid in the hospital. And that 475 00:24:10,349 --> 00:24:12,549 Speaker 1: got me because that's something that I've said to people. 476 00:24:12,629 --> 00:24:15,069 Speaker 1: I would say say in hospital, is that must be scary, 477 00:24:15,149 --> 00:24:17,909 Speaker 1: because that's what I think is the true thing to say. 478 00:24:17,949 --> 00:24:20,069 Speaker 1: But he says, it's not scary. Scary is losing your 479 00:24:20,149 --> 00:24:22,469 Speaker 1: kid at the shopping mall. This is a whole other 480 00:24:22,509 --> 00:24:26,829 Speaker 1: existential level. And another thing that he doesn't want people 481 00:24:26,909 --> 00:24:31,109 Speaker 1: to say is to talk about how it makes them 482 00:24:31,269 --> 00:24:34,069 Speaker 1: grateful for their own lives and their own children, and 483 00:24:34,309 --> 00:24:37,309 Speaker 1: just let's talk about where we're at. So then he 484 00:24:37,349 --> 00:24:40,029 Speaker 1: mentioned some things that were helpful. One of them was 485 00:24:40,709 --> 00:24:43,109 Speaker 1: a friend of his pulled his son aside and put 486 00:24:43,149 --> 00:24:45,029 Speaker 1: him in front of the TV with all the other 487 00:24:45,149 --> 00:24:47,389 Speaker 1: kids at a social gathering. Didn't make a big fuss 488 00:24:47,429 --> 00:24:49,429 Speaker 1: about it, didn't check if that was okay for his 489 00:24:49,469 --> 00:24:52,709 Speaker 1: son to be there, just did this thing, this quiet 490 00:24:52,789 --> 00:24:56,349 Speaker 1: act of grace that enabled both the father to get 491 00:24:56,349 --> 00:24:59,269 Speaker 1: along with his socializing, but also for his son to 492 00:24:59,389 --> 00:25:01,989 Speaker 1: feel like a normal child amongst the other children. And 493 00:25:02,029 --> 00:25:05,149 Speaker 1: I thought that was such a beautiful, practical thing that 494 00:25:05,229 --> 00:25:06,269 Speaker 1: someone did for him. 495 00:25:06,589 --> 00:25:09,629 Speaker 2: I love that. And I think there's a sense when 496 00:25:10,229 --> 00:25:12,389 Speaker 2: someone's in hospital that the people around you really just 497 00:25:12,429 --> 00:25:14,789 Speaker 2: want it to be over. So saying that it's scary, 498 00:25:15,229 --> 00:25:19,509 Speaker 2: being positive in a way that's actually not not realistic, 499 00:25:20,029 --> 00:25:22,549 Speaker 2: just makes a person feel really unseen. People just want 500 00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:24,429 Speaker 2: the good news. That's why they're checking in because I 501 00:25:24,509 --> 00:25:26,949 Speaker 2: want the good news, and it's like it's not here. 502 00:25:27,349 --> 00:25:31,469 Speaker 2: And when it's when there's ongoing struggles, I think, Yeah, 503 00:25:31,509 --> 00:25:33,509 Speaker 2: people lean on cliches, probably because I don't know what 504 00:25:33,589 --> 00:25:37,029 Speaker 2: to say, but I think it's helpful to kind of go, here's. 505 00:25:36,869 --> 00:25:37,549 Speaker 4: What you do say. 506 00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:40,469 Speaker 1: I didn't want people texting me for precisely that reason, 507 00:25:40,509 --> 00:25:43,869 Speaker 1: saying how are things, because it's exhausting to have to 508 00:25:43,989 --> 00:25:46,789 Speaker 1: update people with uncertain news. A lot of stuff that 509 00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:49,589 Speaker 1: happens in hospitals is uncertain, Like that's why I realized 510 00:25:49,589 --> 00:25:52,069 Speaker 1: through this process, like all this test came back, and 511 00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:54,509 Speaker 1: they don't really know what's going on, and a lot 512 00:25:54,509 --> 00:25:56,189 Speaker 1: of the time they didn't know what's going on, and 513 00:25:56,229 --> 00:25:58,829 Speaker 1: so it's hard to give people definitive updates. So I 514 00:25:58,829 --> 00:26:02,949 Speaker 1: would find myself sending these group emails and asking people 515 00:26:03,589 --> 00:26:06,349 Speaker 1: just to read but not right back, because then I 516 00:26:06,389 --> 00:26:09,349 Speaker 1: have the labor of having to respond to them. It 517 00:26:09,389 --> 00:26:10,989 Speaker 1: took me a long time time to get over the 518 00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:13,669 Speaker 1: anger that I felt, a lot longer than it took 519 00:26:13,709 --> 00:26:16,789 Speaker 1: for my child to get better. And I just really 520 00:26:16,829 --> 00:26:20,589 Speaker 1: appreciate how he went there with this piece. He didn't 521 00:26:20,589 --> 00:26:22,589 Speaker 1: hold back. He could see that people were. 522 00:26:22,429 --> 00:26:22,989 Speaker 4: Trying to help. 523 00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:25,909 Speaker 1: But it's also important that people understand how hard it 524 00:26:25,949 --> 00:26:28,229 Speaker 1: is to accept and receive that help at a time 525 00:26:28,349 --> 00:26:32,509 Speaker 1: like this. If you've ever wondered how a secession character 526 00:26:32,709 --> 00:26:35,589 Speaker 1: might design a playroom, the Wall Street Journal has you 527 00:26:35,709 --> 00:26:39,949 Speaker 1: covered a recent Wall Street Journal article featured a playroom 528 00:26:40,109 --> 00:26:43,429 Speaker 1: that's getting me angry. It's a venture capitalist mother and 529 00:26:43,469 --> 00:26:46,189 Speaker 1: a tech entrepreneur father in the New York City neighborhood 530 00:26:46,189 --> 00:26:49,949 Speaker 1: of the West Village. They purchased a two bedroom apartment 531 00:26:50,109 --> 00:26:53,349 Speaker 1: next door to their four bedroom apartment just to turn 532 00:26:53,349 --> 00:26:54,789 Speaker 1: it into a retreat. 533 00:26:54,429 --> 00:26:55,469 Speaker 4: For their young daughters. 534 00:26:55,629 --> 00:26:58,389 Speaker 1: Okay, I don't know if they've heard of making a 535 00:26:58,789 --> 00:27:03,469 Speaker 1: fort with blankets and dining room chairs, but anyway, buying 536 00:27:03,469 --> 00:27:04,709 Speaker 1: a two bedroom apartment works too. 537 00:27:04,829 --> 00:27:06,389 Speaker 2: When I was a kid, I made that fort and 538 00:27:06,389 --> 00:27:08,269 Speaker 2: I put the blankets out, and then I lit a candle, 539 00:27:08,749 --> 00:27:11,109 Speaker 2: and I'll tell you there was in the bottom. 540 00:27:10,789 --> 00:27:13,189 Speaker 4: Of both chairs. Still remembers it. 541 00:27:13,509 --> 00:27:16,109 Speaker 1: I live in a two bedroom apartment. That's my two 542 00:27:16,189 --> 00:27:19,749 Speaker 1: young children's retreat. Anyway, Setting aside the extravagance of it all, 543 00:27:19,909 --> 00:27:23,189 Speaker 1: what is making people incensed, and I guess by people, 544 00:27:23,269 --> 00:27:26,069 Speaker 1: I mean me, is that there are no colors in 545 00:27:26,109 --> 00:27:29,549 Speaker 1: this retreat. At the request of the color reverse clients. 546 00:27:29,709 --> 00:27:34,269 Speaker 1: The designers embraced monastic restraint. The Raw Street Journal rights 547 00:27:34,349 --> 00:27:37,589 Speaker 1: it's very muted. The interior designer is quoted as saying, 548 00:27:37,789 --> 00:27:39,549 Speaker 1: so let me paint you a picture Jesse because this 549 00:27:39,629 --> 00:27:43,909 Speaker 1: is a podcast, hand tufted rugs, a custom mural chairs 550 00:27:43,949 --> 00:27:47,909 Speaker 1: from Copenhagen, and fifty shades of beige, or as the 551 00:27:47,949 --> 00:27:51,989 Speaker 1: designers call it, oatmeal, flax, cream, stone, rope, bone and ash. 552 00:27:52,389 --> 00:27:55,749 Speaker 1: Why is everything to do with kids suddenly looking like 553 00:27:55,749 --> 00:27:56,669 Speaker 1: a Skims catalog. 554 00:27:56,909 --> 00:28:03,549 Speaker 2: I love beige. I will launch a passionate defense beige way. 555 00:28:04,069 --> 00:28:06,669 Speaker 2: It gets such a bad rap. And I bought like 556 00:28:06,749 --> 00:28:09,269 Speaker 2: linen for my bed recently and it was oatmeal with 557 00:28:09,389 --> 00:28:13,429 Speaker 2: flax was omining those shades that I went, that's perfect. 558 00:28:13,469 --> 00:28:17,869 Speaker 2: And here's the reason everything to do with children is 559 00:28:17,909 --> 00:28:22,229 Speaker 2: over stimulating in my house, despite my love of for 560 00:28:22,309 --> 00:28:24,629 Speaker 2: the neutrals. I've got a red Elmo, I've got a 561 00:28:24,669 --> 00:28:26,869 Speaker 2: blue Bluey. They yell in the middle of the night 562 00:28:26,949 --> 00:28:29,429 Speaker 2: sometimes for no reason because their batteries go off. There 563 00:28:29,509 --> 00:28:32,669 Speaker 2: is plato, there are crayons there, and then you know, 564 00:28:32,869 --> 00:28:35,229 Speaker 2: if the TV goes on. Don't even talk to me 565 00:28:35,269 --> 00:28:37,589 Speaker 2: about the colors that come up. We've got the wiggles 566 00:28:37,869 --> 00:28:40,749 Speaker 2: like there is so much color. It is an assault 567 00:28:40,789 --> 00:28:43,829 Speaker 2: on the senses. Raising kids is an assault on the senses. 568 00:28:43,869 --> 00:28:47,389 Speaker 2: It is very overstimulating, quite like a nursery tour that 569 00:28:47,469 --> 00:28:50,509 Speaker 2: I get given on on social media sometimes and I 570 00:28:50,549 --> 00:28:53,069 Speaker 2: love when they walk in and it's also neat, and. 571 00:28:53,189 --> 00:28:57,469 Speaker 1: They've always got these special custom designed cubes. Yes, yes, 572 00:28:57,509 --> 00:28:59,349 Speaker 1: And I tried doing that in my house and I 573 00:28:59,389 --> 00:29:01,869 Speaker 1: made signs with my apartment and I made signs for 574 00:29:01,989 --> 00:29:04,309 Speaker 1: them for the kids, like this is my son's toys, 575 00:29:04,349 --> 00:29:06,469 Speaker 1: this is my daughter's toys. Do you know how long 576 00:29:06,509 --> 00:29:10,229 Speaker 1: it took for that whole taxonomy to be completely tossed aside. 577 00:29:10,269 --> 00:29:12,429 Speaker 2: That's what's so funny is that the naivety of a 578 00:29:12,509 --> 00:29:15,069 Speaker 2: nursery is always like they barely go in there for 579 00:29:15,109 --> 00:29:17,589 Speaker 2: the first first little bit, and then the way that 580 00:29:17,629 --> 00:29:20,389 Speaker 2: people line up all the nappies and I think, oh, 581 00:29:20,429 --> 00:29:23,389 Speaker 2: you never do that again. You never do the lining 582 00:29:23,669 --> 00:29:26,109 Speaker 2: of the na it's just and the like washing of 583 00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:28,149 Speaker 2: the onesies and the putting them back in. But the 584 00:29:28,229 --> 00:29:30,909 Speaker 2: neutral I mean, I will also say that it's a 585 00:29:30,949 --> 00:29:34,309 Speaker 2: real benefit for hand me downs, like because we have 586 00:29:34,349 --> 00:29:36,869 Speaker 2: a lot of beige. I have friends who've had boys girls, 587 00:29:36,909 --> 00:29:40,149 Speaker 2: whatever's true. Let's gender neutral, very ginger neutral, which is great. 588 00:29:40,589 --> 00:29:42,509 Speaker 2: And if you don't know, the sex with baby beige 589 00:29:42,549 --> 00:29:45,109 Speaker 2: is also really good to throw it in. I mean, look, 590 00:29:45,229 --> 00:29:48,269 Speaker 2: I'm not too essentialist about gender. I think girls can 591 00:29:48,269 --> 00:29:51,069 Speaker 2: wear blue and boys can wear pink. But some people, Yeah, 592 00:29:51,069 --> 00:29:54,109 Speaker 2: that's why we go very yellow during that period. I 593 00:29:54,149 --> 00:29:56,229 Speaker 2: think the beige. I've seen an attack on beige, and 594 00:29:56,269 --> 00:29:59,109 Speaker 2: I just think I think we can allow it and 595 00:29:59,149 --> 00:30:00,429 Speaker 2: embrace more of the beige. 596 00:30:00,469 --> 00:30:02,789 Speaker 1: You know you are convincing me here. And another thing 597 00:30:02,869 --> 00:30:06,669 Speaker 1: about beige or oatmeal or flax or the cereals is 598 00:30:06,709 --> 00:30:10,469 Speaker 1: that you can throw things on them and it's sort 599 00:30:10,469 --> 00:30:13,709 Speaker 1: of just all blends into the sort of beij camouflage 600 00:30:13,749 --> 00:30:14,109 Speaker 1: of it. All. 601 00:30:14,669 --> 00:30:15,989 Speaker 4: Vomit mal yes. 602 00:30:16,269 --> 00:30:19,349 Speaker 2: A lightpool. I think you just smudge it in. It 603 00:30:19,349 --> 00:30:21,669 Speaker 2: does look like it's tonal. It's actually tonal. 604 00:30:22,269 --> 00:30:25,869 Speaker 1: As my husband is fond of saying it's either blood, 605 00:30:25,949 --> 00:30:27,229 Speaker 1: seamen or urine gold. 606 00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:30,909 Speaker 4: I hope it's urine. We should say your husband is 607 00:30:30,989 --> 00:30:36,189 Speaker 4: a doctor. Oh sorry, yeah, relevant information. He deals with 608 00:30:36,229 --> 00:30:37,109 Speaker 4: bodily fluids for. 609 00:30:37,149 --> 00:30:40,949 Speaker 2: A living Amelia. It is time for our recommendations of 610 00:30:40,989 --> 00:30:42,629 Speaker 2: the week. And look, the rule for this is that 611 00:30:42,669 --> 00:30:46,989 Speaker 2: it's recommendations that might apply to parents parenting adjacent. That 612 00:30:47,149 --> 00:30:48,509 Speaker 2: is the rule. What is your recommendation? 613 00:30:48,949 --> 00:30:49,669 Speaker 4: It is a book. 614 00:30:49,829 --> 00:30:52,909 Speaker 1: It is called intimates. It is by Sally Rooney. She's 615 00:30:52,949 --> 00:30:54,869 Speaker 1: a really unknown niche writer. 616 00:30:55,109 --> 00:30:56,429 Speaker 4: You may have heard of her. 617 00:30:56,549 --> 00:30:59,709 Speaker 1: No, she's in fact probably the most famous writer of 618 00:31:00,389 --> 00:31:01,389 Speaker 1: our generation. 619 00:31:01,709 --> 00:31:03,509 Speaker 4: I guess I have to say I have. 620 00:31:03,469 --> 00:31:05,789 Speaker 2: A confession about this book. I started it and I 621 00:31:05,789 --> 00:31:06,069 Speaker 2: put it. 622 00:31:06,269 --> 00:31:07,469 Speaker 4: No, I get it. I get it. 623 00:31:07,589 --> 00:31:09,149 Speaker 1: I am here to sell you on it. It's not 624 00:31:09,189 --> 00:31:11,109 Speaker 1: a new book. It came out last year and it 625 00:31:11,149 --> 00:31:13,989 Speaker 1: got very mixed reviews. I was not going to read it. 626 00:31:14,229 --> 00:31:17,029 Speaker 1: I didn't enjoy her last book. I just sort of 627 00:31:17,029 --> 00:31:20,069 Speaker 1: felt like I understood the stick of awkward Irish people 628 00:31:20,309 --> 00:31:22,189 Speaker 1: falling in and out of love, did not need to 629 00:31:22,189 --> 00:31:22,509 Speaker 1: read that. 630 00:31:22,669 --> 00:31:24,029 Speaker 2: The love awkward Irish people. 631 00:31:24,069 --> 00:31:25,709 Speaker 4: But this was like, it's just too much. 632 00:31:25,869 --> 00:31:27,709 Speaker 1: You know. This is like her third or fourth book, 633 00:31:27,749 --> 00:31:30,269 Speaker 1: and I get it. But then I just picked it 634 00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:33,789 Speaker 1: up at the library and needed something to read. And 635 00:31:34,109 --> 00:31:37,149 Speaker 1: I think it's my favorite of her books. And it's 636 00:31:37,269 --> 00:31:40,309 Speaker 1: absolutely the best book I've read all year. And I 637 00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:43,029 Speaker 1: want to say what I think people miss. They miss 638 00:31:43,109 --> 00:31:44,949 Speaker 1: the point to me. I think that this is a 639 00:31:44,989 --> 00:31:48,269 Speaker 1: book about two brothers. It's about the relationship between brothers, 640 00:31:48,949 --> 00:31:51,349 Speaker 1: and I love that because I have a brother and 641 00:31:51,429 --> 00:31:55,989 Speaker 1: I'm always reading books about relationships between sisters, and I 642 00:31:56,029 --> 00:31:59,349 Speaker 1: think that's because novels these days are read and written 643 00:31:59,429 --> 00:32:02,469 Speaker 1: by women, so naturally I think we're going to gravitate 644 00:32:02,509 --> 00:32:06,589 Speaker 1: towards stories about women. But this really made me think 645 00:32:06,629 --> 00:32:09,429 Speaker 1: about and reflect on my relationship with my brother, and 646 00:32:09,629 --> 00:32:12,109 Speaker 1: it helped me to understand it a little bit more. 647 00:32:12,629 --> 00:32:15,909 Speaker 1: I loved that Sally Rooney made such a valiant attempt 648 00:32:15,989 --> 00:32:20,469 Speaker 1: to live inside the minds of two men. This never happens. 649 00:32:20,629 --> 00:32:23,069 Speaker 2: She did do that very very well, and the inner 650 00:32:23,109 --> 00:32:26,429 Speaker 2: world of the men came across as very authentic. Well. 651 00:32:26,429 --> 00:32:28,149 Speaker 1: To be honest, I have no idea if she did 652 00:32:28,149 --> 00:32:31,309 Speaker 1: it well or not, because I'm not a man. But 653 00:32:31,869 --> 00:32:34,829 Speaker 1: to me it was just really compelling. Whether or not 654 00:32:34,869 --> 00:32:37,069 Speaker 1: it was accurate or not, I will have to leave 655 00:32:37,109 --> 00:32:39,109 Speaker 1: that to the men. But it did give me a 656 00:32:39,149 --> 00:32:43,029 Speaker 1: sense that I understood my brother better and my relationship 657 00:32:43,069 --> 00:32:45,949 Speaker 1: with him a little better. So basically, about Peter and 658 00:32:45,989 --> 00:32:48,549 Speaker 1: Ivan Kuebec. They are brothers who live in Dublin, their 659 00:32:48,589 --> 00:32:52,469 Speaker 1: fathers just died. They're both negotiating romantic relationships with women. 660 00:32:52,509 --> 00:32:55,109 Speaker 1: It is in fact about awkward Irish people. I need 661 00:32:55,109 --> 00:32:58,549 Speaker 1: to make that clear up front, But I loved getting 662 00:32:58,589 --> 00:33:01,549 Speaker 1: an insight or feeling like I got an insight into 663 00:33:01,709 --> 00:33:06,469 Speaker 1: how men think about women and how men think about 664 00:33:06,509 --> 00:33:09,189 Speaker 1: their siblings. And that's why I'm recommending it. 665 00:33:09,269 --> 00:33:10,469 Speaker 4: Maybe I should pick up. 666 00:33:11,069 --> 00:33:14,869 Speaker 2: I have two recommendations. My first recommendation is a Tony box. 667 00:33:14,869 --> 00:33:16,109 Speaker 4: Have you heard of those? 668 00:33:16,189 --> 00:33:16,469 Speaker 2: Yes? 669 00:33:16,629 --> 00:33:19,309 Speaker 1: Yes, I have one, and I need to dig it up. 670 00:33:19,389 --> 00:33:20,909 Speaker 1: Remind me why it's good. 671 00:33:21,109 --> 00:33:26,469 Speaker 2: Okay, So the tony box is like a soft box thing, 672 00:33:27,149 --> 00:33:29,469 Speaker 2: and then you get Tony's are what they're called. And 673 00:33:29,469 --> 00:33:32,309 Speaker 2: we've got like a gruffalo or a pepper pig and 674 00:33:32,349 --> 00:33:34,909 Speaker 2: you put it on top and it either sing songs 675 00:33:34,949 --> 00:33:37,549 Speaker 2: or tells stories or whatever. And the idea is the 676 00:33:37,549 --> 00:33:39,069 Speaker 2: way that a lot of people talk to me about 677 00:33:39,109 --> 00:33:42,709 Speaker 2: it was you get them off screens. It's really interactive 678 00:33:42,909 --> 00:33:45,389 Speaker 2: and they love it, and so it's a great way 679 00:33:46,029 --> 00:33:48,269 Speaker 2: for them to feel really entertained by purple Pig without 680 00:33:48,269 --> 00:33:50,149 Speaker 2: looking at a screen. And as we know, that is 681 00:33:50,349 --> 00:33:54,789 Speaker 2: parenting in twenty twenty five. Just finding weazelways around screens. 682 00:33:54,549 --> 00:33:55,429 Speaker 4: Is Luna's favorite. 683 00:33:55,429 --> 00:33:59,789 Speaker 2: Pepper No, her favorite is the dog because it does 684 00:33:59,949 --> 00:34:01,909 Speaker 2: round and a round. There's some song that she loves 685 00:34:01,949 --> 00:34:03,549 Speaker 2: doing because she does the dances to it, but we 686 00:34:03,589 --> 00:34:05,629 Speaker 2: have to do it every night. There's one that does lullabies, 687 00:34:05,669 --> 00:34:08,309 Speaker 2: so we put that on before bed. And full disclosure, 688 00:34:08,349 --> 00:34:10,309 Speaker 2: this was a gift, so I didn't buy this myself. 689 00:34:10,469 --> 00:34:12,029 Speaker 2: And then I looked up how much it was, and 690 00:34:12,029 --> 00:34:13,869 Speaker 2: that's why I was a little bit self conscious about 691 00:34:13,869 --> 00:34:17,469 Speaker 2: my recommendation because they cost I think it's about one 692 00:34:17,549 --> 00:34:19,869 Speaker 2: hundred and eighty nine dollars for a box, and the 693 00:34:19,949 --> 00:34:23,949 Speaker 2: tonys are twenty nine dollars each, so I understand that 694 00:34:23,949 --> 00:34:25,789 Speaker 2: that's a lot. And I always get funny when like 695 00:34:25,869 --> 00:34:28,909 Speaker 2: toys are recommended that are really expensive and it feels 696 00:34:28,909 --> 00:34:31,989 Speaker 2: like they would make parenting easier, Like I just don't 697 00:34:32,069 --> 00:34:34,389 Speaker 2: love that. I also think, from what I've heard, they 698 00:34:34,429 --> 00:34:35,909 Speaker 2: last for years and years. 699 00:34:35,989 --> 00:34:37,309 Speaker 4: We've had us for years. 700 00:34:37,109 --> 00:34:39,789 Speaker 2: Yes, and it appeals to a five year old in 701 00:34:39,789 --> 00:34:42,229 Speaker 2: a different way than it appears to a two year old. 702 00:34:43,029 --> 00:34:45,509 Speaker 2: I'm going to check another one out there, which is 703 00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:48,749 Speaker 2: a recipe Amelia. I your kid's piciaters. I know we're 704 00:34:48,749 --> 00:34:50,669 Speaker 2: not meant to use that term, but are they piciaters? 705 00:34:50,909 --> 00:34:53,709 Speaker 4: Not really, to be honest, but people. 706 00:34:53,509 --> 00:34:56,669 Speaker 2: Who hesitate, I'm like, they're fine. It's the ones that 707 00:34:56,709 --> 00:34:57,309 Speaker 2: are like my. 708 00:34:57,429 --> 00:35:00,469 Speaker 4: Child, Oh, let me tell you. They grab the. 709 00:35:00,389 --> 00:35:03,629 Speaker 2: Sa foods and it's like, well, my child, it's four foods. 710 00:35:03,989 --> 00:35:05,509 Speaker 2: Let's just say that. The list in my phone of 711 00:35:05,709 --> 00:35:09,749 Speaker 2: foods my childie's the God send for us have been 712 00:35:09,749 --> 00:35:12,709 Speaker 2: these called oat bars and this would work for kids. 713 00:35:12,709 --> 00:35:14,469 Speaker 4: That sounds fibrous, yes. 714 00:35:14,389 --> 00:35:17,709 Speaker 2: Yes, fibrous and has nutrients. And I'm just like, if 715 00:35:17,749 --> 00:35:19,309 Speaker 2: she has one of those, at least she had something. 716 00:35:19,629 --> 00:35:21,749 Speaker 2: It's like a really good music. But I would eat one. 717 00:35:21,869 --> 00:35:24,789 Speaker 2: And so it's oats. You put in bananas. The more 718 00:35:25,109 --> 00:35:27,549 Speaker 2: ripe they are, the better, and then you can literally 719 00:35:27,749 --> 00:35:30,389 Speaker 2: throw in like carrots or dates or prunes or one 720 00:35:30,389 --> 00:35:32,149 Speaker 2: time I throw on some beech truths and then you 721 00:35:32,229 --> 00:35:34,229 Speaker 2: check at the oven and they last. I make them 722 00:35:34,269 --> 00:35:36,509 Speaker 2: every week and you can freeze them and whatever, and 723 00:35:36,629 --> 00:35:39,309 Speaker 2: Luna lives off them, and every time she eats them, 724 00:35:39,309 --> 00:35:40,709 Speaker 2: I feel like a good one because I know it 725 00:35:40,709 --> 00:35:43,309 Speaker 2: has things in it that is good. There is a 726 00:35:43,669 --> 00:35:45,949 Speaker 2: link in the show notes it's I do not cook. 727 00:35:45,989 --> 00:35:47,509 Speaker 2: There are about two things I can cook, and this 728 00:35:47,629 --> 00:35:50,309 Speaker 2: is one of them. And it has saved my life 729 00:35:50,509 --> 00:35:51,349 Speaker 2: over the last year. 730 00:35:51,469 --> 00:35:53,229 Speaker 1: And do you know what else is great about it? 731 00:35:53,229 --> 00:35:55,069 Speaker 1: It matches your preferred color scheme. 732 00:35:55,309 --> 00:35:57,669 Speaker 2: It does because it's smushed into the lounge. 733 00:35:57,669 --> 00:35:58,189 Speaker 4: She doesn't matter. 734 00:35:58,229 --> 00:36:00,869 Speaker 2: Beige, lounge, brilliant. It's fine. That is all we have 735 00:36:00,949 --> 00:36:03,669 Speaker 2: time for on parenting out Loud today, but we will 736 00:36:03,709 --> 00:36:13,349 Speaker 2: be back next Saturday morning. See you then, Bye bye