WEBVTT - The Baby Doll Serial Killer: America’s Most Unsuspecting Murderer 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.182 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.702 the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was 0:00:19.742 --> 0:00:27.542 recorded on It's a Chilly night in the Detroit, Michigan 0:00:27.622 --> 0:00:30.982 winter of nineteen ninety nine, just a few weeks before Christmas, 0:00:31.582 --> 0:00:34.782 and Monica Johnson turns to her client in his jeep Wrangler. 0:00:36.262 --> 0:00:38.742 It'll be fifty dollars for straight sex, she tells him. 0:00:39.062 --> 0:00:42.702 He agrees and puts on a condom. When it's over, 0:00:43.502 --> 0:00:48.422 he starts strangling her. He doesn't remember why, but eventually 0:00:48.782 --> 0:00:53.702 Monica stops breathing. He places her body face down on 0:00:53.742 --> 0:00:58.182 the sidewalk and drives home. Did you intend to kill her? 0:00:58.582 --> 0:01:02.942 Police later ask no. He tells them, how did you 0:01:03.022 --> 0:01:08.222 feel after killing her? Awful, very hurt, Very sorry, he said. 0:01:09.782 --> 0:01:12.622 But the seemingly innocent looking man with the red hair 0:01:12.702 --> 0:01:16.742 and wire framed glasses didn't just kill Monica. The baby 0:01:16.782 --> 0:01:20.422 doll serial killer, as he'll soon become known, kills at 0:01:20.502 --> 0:01:26.142 least four more women until finally police cotton on to 0:01:26.262 --> 0:01:36.382 his kills. I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime 0:01:36.422 --> 0:01:41.022 Conversations Amoma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes 0:01:41.422 --> 0:01:44.302 by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 0:01:44.822 --> 0:01:48.142 After every kill, John Eric Armstrong went home to the 0:01:48.142 --> 0:01:50.782 house he shared with his wife and young son and 0:01:50.822 --> 0:01:54.262 had a long shower. He made no effort to hide 0:01:54.302 --> 0:01:57.702 the women he murdered before his post murder ritual, leaving 0:01:57.702 --> 0:02:02.342 their bodies out in the open, sometimes posed. He became 0:02:02.422 --> 0:02:06.182 synonymous for his vehicle, a jeep with a distinctive number 0:02:06.182 --> 0:02:09.462 plate that read baby Doll, a nickname from his wife 0:02:10.742 --> 0:02:13.782 he used to pick up and kill his victims. In 0:02:15.062 --> 0:02:18.622 Armstrong is not your average serial killer, described as having 0:02:18.662 --> 0:02:22.182 a jeckyal and hide personality, He was remorseful one minute 0:02:22.502 --> 0:02:26.262 and describing his kills in horrific detail the next, describing 0:02:26.302 --> 0:02:29.182 having sex with these women's bodies after he killed them. 0:02:30.742 --> 0:02:33.542 Those who knew him remember a boy next door with 0:02:33.702 --> 0:02:37.742 the soft, boyish demeanor. Not a vicious killer. But this 0:02:37.862 --> 0:02:40.582 was a man able to get away with multiple murders, 0:02:41.182 --> 0:02:45.422 potentially even as many as twenty. B. R. Bates is 0:02:45.422 --> 0:02:47.982 a longtime author and journalist who co wrote The Baby 0:02:48.022 --> 0:02:51.822 Doll serial Killer, The John Eric Armstrong Homicides with retired 0:02:51.862 --> 0:02:56.742 police commander and author Gerald Cliff b. R. Bates joins us. Now, 0:02:59.542 --> 0:03:02.782 br what can you tell us about Monica Johnson who 0:03:02.862 --> 0:03:05.702 was found murdered in nineteen ninety nine. Who was she? 0:03:06.182 --> 0:03:11.102 Well, she was a young lady and her thirty who 0:03:11.222 --> 0:03:14.982 had been born and raised in Detroit, and she grew 0:03:15.022 --> 0:03:18.222 up in the East Side mainly of the Detroit area. 0:03:18.662 --> 0:03:22.382 And she had what you would consider pretty normal upbringing 0:03:22.422 --> 0:03:27.542 a mom and dad's siblings, everybody together through her childhood 0:03:28.182 --> 0:03:32.342 and then she herself in her thirties, had a few kids. 0:03:32.422 --> 0:03:36.182 I think she had four kids, all aged ten and under. 0:03:36.942 --> 0:03:39.622 And she was working the streets. So and we don't 0:03:39.662 --> 0:03:42.382 know why she was working the streets. For some of 0:03:42.382 --> 0:03:45.822 these girls, a lot of these girls, it's addiction that 0:03:45.942 --> 0:03:48.862 puts them out there at risk living on the streets 0:03:48.902 --> 0:03:52.302 and working the streets. But for Monica, we don't really 0:03:52.382 --> 0:03:54.582 know that. We don't really know that she was addicted 0:03:54.622 --> 0:03:56.582 to anything, but she was out there. 0:03:57.022 --> 0:03:59.302 We know that she was murdered in the winter of 0:03:59.582 --> 0:04:03.462 nineteen ninety nine. She was strangled and found face down 0:04:03.542 --> 0:04:06.982 in a sidewalk. What else do we know about how 0:04:07.022 --> 0:04:07.502 she died? 0:04:08.902 --> 0:04:13.622 It was an interesting her. I guess boyfriend. He's been 0:04:13.662 --> 0:04:16.062 called a boyfriend he's been called a friend. His name 0:04:16.142 --> 0:04:18.982 was Cliff. He was somebody that was close to Monica. 0:04:19.742 --> 0:04:23.782 He drove her that night to Michigan Avenue, and Michigan 0:04:23.822 --> 0:04:28.182 Avenue is a very thriving area of prostitution in Detroit. 0:04:28.942 --> 0:04:32.422 This seemed to have been a regular occurrence for them. 0:04:32.702 --> 0:04:35.582 He drove her there, he parked at Michigan and a 0:04:35.622 --> 0:04:39.262 side street called Sharon Street, and he waited there in 0:04:39.302 --> 0:04:42.102 the car while she walked away to do her thing 0:04:42.702 --> 0:04:46.702 to make some money. And so she wandered off and 0:04:47.422 --> 0:04:49.662 he fell asleep while he was waiting for her in 0:04:49.702 --> 0:04:53.462 the car, and she didn't come back. And she didn't 0:04:53.742 --> 0:04:57.622 try to I guess back then nineteen ninety nine, maybe 0:04:57.662 --> 0:05:00.742 page him or something, you know, contact him on a phone. 0:05:01.102 --> 0:05:04.182 He didn't hear from her, and when he woke up, 0:05:04.222 --> 0:05:06.902 he realized, oh, okay, she isn't back yet, and he 0:05:06.982 --> 0:05:09.902 just headed home. So we don't know the nature of 0:05:09.942 --> 0:05:12.862 that relationlationship, or if this was, like I said, a 0:05:12.942 --> 0:05:16.422 regular occurrence and this was just protocol for them. Who 0:05:16.502 --> 0:05:21.702 knows what was going on. But unfortunately Monica had encountered 0:05:21.822 --> 0:05:27.262 her last pain customer. You would say she had accepted 0:05:27.582 --> 0:05:32.222 a transaction with a person who then strangled her and 0:05:32.342 --> 0:05:36.902 left her to die on the sidewalk at a service 0:05:37.022 --> 0:05:42.582 drive off Interstate ninety four and Detroit, little service drive 0:05:42.662 --> 0:05:45.942 called spring Wells. And so he had left her there 0:05:46.182 --> 0:05:47.422 and driven away. 0:05:48.382 --> 0:05:54.022 What is the crime right like over in Detroit is 0:05:54.182 --> 0:05:56.342 murda something that is common. 0:05:56.782 --> 0:06:00.182 Yes, in the city of Detroit. Monica was one of 0:06:00.222 --> 0:06:04.942 about four hundred homicides I believe that year. Wow. And 0:06:05.062 --> 0:06:08.862 so this was December twod when Monica was killed. And 0:06:09.142 --> 0:06:15.182 so when the least realized, Okay, we have this young 0:06:15.182 --> 0:06:18.382 woman who is dead, and she appears to a better 0:06:18.422 --> 0:06:21.022 prostitute and they did id her and realize, yes, she 0:06:21.182 --> 0:06:23.942 was working the street. It really was not even a 0:06:23.942 --> 0:06:26.902 blip on the radar. It was not any cause of concern. 0:06:26.982 --> 0:06:30.662 It was investigated for a short time and then it 0:06:30.742 --> 0:06:31.302 was dropped. 0:06:32.182 --> 0:06:36.702 Full hundred is an insane number. I knew it was high. 0:06:36.702 --> 0:06:40.262 I didn't realize it was that high. Right, Another sex 0:06:40.262 --> 0:06:43.582 worker was murdered in Detroit and her name was Wendy Jordan. 0:06:44.742 --> 0:06:45.622 What happened to her? 0:06:46.382 --> 0:06:50.142 Wendy is somebody who did not live on the street 0:06:50.262 --> 0:06:53.182 so much as she wandered off there now and then 0:06:53.342 --> 0:06:56.302 but she also held down regular jobs in her life, 0:06:56.342 --> 0:06:59.982 and she had sisters who cared very much about her 0:07:00.262 --> 0:07:04.262 and would definitely know when she was missing or when 0:07:04.302 --> 0:07:07.342 she had fallen back on her own addiction, because that 0:07:07.542 --> 0:07:10.022 was what it was for Wendy. It was a matter 0:07:10.022 --> 0:07:13.862 of a day. It was January first when she encountered 0:07:13.862 --> 0:07:18.662 the same person who Monica had encountered, and this was 0:07:18.742 --> 0:07:22.742 off Warren Avenue actually in Detroit. This was one of 0:07:22.742 --> 0:07:26.182 the very few people that Armstrong picked up who was 0:07:26.222 --> 0:07:29.022 not on Michigan Avenue. This is like the one case 0:07:29.062 --> 0:07:31.302 I think, or actually two cases out of ten people 0:07:31.702 --> 0:07:34.982 where the female was not on Michigan Avenue. But yeah, 0:07:35.022 --> 0:07:38.742 he picked up Wendy on Warren and took her to 0:07:38.862 --> 0:07:42.502 a side street parked behind a funeral home, as crazy 0:07:42.502 --> 0:07:46.862 as it is, and he strangled Wendy. And the strange 0:07:46.902 --> 0:07:51.102 thing about the case with Wendy is that he took 0:07:51.182 --> 0:07:54.262 her in his jeep instead of just throwing her out 0:07:54.262 --> 0:07:56.462 of the jeep, which is what he did with all 0:07:56.582 --> 0:07:59.662 the rest of the assaults that he committed in Detroit. 0:08:00.302 --> 0:08:03.622 He took Wendy in his jeep almost all the way 0:08:03.662 --> 0:08:06.422 to his home, which was in a suburb of Detroit 0:08:06.462 --> 0:08:09.422 on the west side of Detroit, a suburb called Dearborn Heights, 0:08:10.062 --> 0:08:12.022 and he was almost all the way home. He was 0:08:12.062 --> 0:08:14.502 about a block from home when he pulled over and 0:08:14.662 --> 0:08:18.742 he dropped her over a bridge onto the Rouge River, which, 0:08:19.022 --> 0:08:23.102 because this was January in Michigan, it was very cold 0:08:23.462 --> 0:08:26.942 and it was partially frozen. There was some water and 0:08:26.982 --> 0:08:29.342 there was some ice, and so he dropped Wendy down 0:08:29.982 --> 0:08:33.582 onto the river. And then he continued on home and 0:08:34.062 --> 0:08:37.662 went to bed like usual, as if you know, nothing 0:08:37.862 --> 0:08:39.262 was different about that night. 0:08:40.502 --> 0:08:42.902 I noticed that he seemed to have, you know, like 0:08:42.942 --> 0:08:45.422 a kind of postmode of ritual. He'd go home and 0:08:45.622 --> 0:08:46.622 have a long shalla. 0:08:46.982 --> 0:08:51.382 Every time he did say that in his confessions to police, 0:08:51.742 --> 0:08:54.822 they would say, okay, what happened, then what did you do? Then? Well, 0:08:54.822 --> 0:08:59.142 I went home and yeah, he often does mention a shower, 0:08:59.862 --> 0:09:02.742 and then he crawled into bed with his wife. And 0:09:02.982 --> 0:09:06.462 I think his wife was really not from everything that 0:09:06.542 --> 0:09:10.502 I understand, his wife really was not aware of how 0:09:10.542 --> 0:09:13.702 long he was even out, and I really don't believe 0:09:13.742 --> 0:09:15.462 she was aware of what he was doing. 0:09:15.982 --> 0:09:18.862 I want to skip to another victim. Her name was 0:09:18.942 --> 0:09:21.822 Rose Marie Felt, and she died in March two thousand. 0:09:22.142 --> 0:09:23.622 What led her to sex work. 0:09:24.302 --> 0:09:29.422 She was introduced to cocaine as a teenager. I want 0:09:29.462 --> 0:09:33.302 to say, like fifteen sixteen. I spoke with the man 0:09:33.462 --> 0:09:37.742 who was the one who was very honest about saying, 0:09:37.822 --> 0:09:39.982 I'm the one I can tell you exactly when Rose 0:09:40.022 --> 0:09:42.782 became addicted, because I'm the one who introduced her to it, 0:09:43.382 --> 0:09:45.862 and that was her. I guess you'd call it a 0:09:45.942 --> 0:09:49.382 baby daddy. That's another thing he was very honest about. 0:09:49.662 --> 0:09:54.462 Rose became pregnant at only age fifteen or sixteen, but 0:09:54.622 --> 0:09:57.982 she also had been living the street life a little 0:09:58.022 --> 0:10:02.942 bit then. She was essentially a runaway. She was just 0:10:03.022 --> 0:10:06.622 kind of drawn into all of these things at a 0:10:06.782 --> 0:10:10.142 very young age, and so introduced to drugs in the 0:10:10.822 --> 0:10:13.662 of course, as with a lot of these other females, 0:10:13.702 --> 0:10:16.422 and how do I need to pay for my drugs? 0:10:16.462 --> 0:10:18.502 You know, how am I going to pay for my drugs? 0:10:18.542 --> 0:10:21.942 You know, that becomes the question, and so later they 0:10:21.942 --> 0:10:26.702 will often turn to prostitution. But yeah, she was very 0:10:26.782 --> 0:10:30.502 young and had a child, and then her daughter was 0:10:30.542 --> 0:10:35.342 taken care of by her boyfriend's parents, and it was 0:10:35.342 --> 0:10:39.102 a very fractured situation in Rose's life from a very 0:10:39.502 --> 0:10:43.942 young age, unfortunately, and when she died she was in 0:10:43.982 --> 0:10:47.902 her thirties, and so she had been living in that life, 0:10:48.502 --> 0:10:51.982 in an unstable, at risk life for quite a few years. 0:10:52.822 --> 0:10:56.502 And was she murdered in a similar fashion to the 0:10:56.542 --> 0:10:57.582 other women we've discovered. 0:10:57.742 --> 0:11:00.542 Yes, yes, she was picked up on Michigan Avenue my 0:11:00.702 --> 0:11:05.222 arms Strong and they agreed on a transaction and he 0:11:05.302 --> 0:11:10.062 strangled her. She introduced him to a place because typically 0:11:10.142 --> 0:11:13.262 he wou he would hunt on Michigan Avenue, he would 0:11:13.262 --> 0:11:17.822 pick someone up and then he would drive somewhere close by. Well, 0:11:17.942 --> 0:11:21.542 Rose was the one who introduced Armstrong to the stretch 0:11:21.582 --> 0:11:25.222 of railroad tracks that are at Military and John Cronk 0:11:25.342 --> 0:11:30.422 Streets in southwest Detroit, and she told him she knew 0:11:30.422 --> 0:11:32.942 a place, and so they drove over there. There was 0:11:33.302 --> 0:11:36.302 there's like a part where you're driving in that area 0:11:36.502 --> 0:11:38.742 and you pull into a parking lot where there used 0:11:38.742 --> 0:11:41.502 to be a business. I'm sure it's been long closed now, 0:11:41.822 --> 0:11:43.622 but you pull into a parking lot and then there's 0:11:43.702 --> 0:11:45.742 part of the parking lot that goes up into a 0:11:45.862 --> 0:11:48.982 service drive that's next to the railroad tracks and when 0:11:48.982 --> 0:11:52.022 you get up there, it is pretty secluded. There's trees 0:11:52.142 --> 0:11:55.822 and other buildings around, and so it was a popular 0:11:55.942 --> 0:11:58.982 place for people to go to do drugs or to 0:11:59.062 --> 0:12:04.062 do prostitution back then. And so she knew up that 0:12:04.142 --> 0:12:06.382 place and pointed that out to him, and he drove 0:12:06.502 --> 0:12:09.222 up there and that's where he left her. He left 0:12:09.222 --> 0:12:12.782 her in the brush and then drove home from there. 0:12:13.102 --> 0:12:15.662 And that's why he left the buddies of three minutes. 0:12:15.782 --> 0:12:19.662 Yes, Rose was the first. Then he encountered Kelly Hood 0:12:19.702 --> 0:12:21.822 and he took her to that same place that Rose 0:12:21.862 --> 0:12:24.342 had shown him. And then the third female that he 0:12:24.422 --> 0:12:27.222 took there was Nicole Young, who was also known by 0:12:27.222 --> 0:12:29.862 the name Robin Brown on the street, and she was 0:12:30.102 --> 0:12:32.662 the last one left there, but he left her close 0:12:32.862 --> 0:12:36.382 to where the actual tracks were. He didn't really hide 0:12:36.422 --> 0:12:38.622 her in the brush. He left her out in plain 0:12:38.742 --> 0:12:41.142 view and she was discovered only hours later. 0:12:41.702 --> 0:12:44.062 On all of those deaths, those last three in particular, 0:12:44.102 --> 0:12:45.302 were very close to get the went. 0:12:45.302 --> 0:12:49.302 They Yes, Rose, we figure was mid March, based on 0:12:49.342 --> 0:12:52.222 the fact that she had been seen in Grand Rapids 0:12:52.262 --> 0:12:54.422 on the other side of the state in earlier March. 0:12:54.422 --> 0:12:56.622 I think it was like March seventh, she had gotten 0:12:57.022 --> 0:13:01.382 a citation in Grand Rapids for loitering. I believe it was, 0:13:01.702 --> 0:13:04.462 and so we know she was alive in the first 0:13:04.622 --> 0:13:08.502 full week of March, and based on timing and the research, 0:13:08.542 --> 0:13:11.542 it was probably around in mid March and Kelly Hood. 0:13:11.902 --> 0:13:14.582 I think it was early April for Kelly because based 0:13:14.582 --> 0:13:17.742 on what her family members said about speaking with her 0:13:17.782 --> 0:13:20.582 on the phone and when they last saw her. And 0:13:20.622 --> 0:13:25.222 then Robin Brown, while Nicole would have been around the 0:13:25.542 --> 0:13:29.142 ninth of April, so he was escalating. 0:13:29.542 --> 0:13:33.862 People are fascinated by serial killers. We always have been, 0:13:33.942 --> 0:13:36.582 we still remain to be. It struck me that in 0:13:36.622 --> 0:13:41.102 your book you spent so much time detailing the lives 0:13:41.582 --> 0:13:45.222 of these women, and you opened the book like that, 0:13:45.302 --> 0:13:47.662 one by one by one, detailing the lives of the 0:13:47.702 --> 0:13:52.822 women he killed. Was that a very kind of strong 0:13:52.862 --> 0:13:55.502 decision on your part to honor their lives? 0:13:56.102 --> 0:14:01.382 Oh? Absolutely absolutely. I wanted this book to be victim centric, 0:14:02.102 --> 0:14:05.262 and so I was very determined to start out with 0:14:05.382 --> 0:14:08.622 a chapter on each one of the females who had died, 0:14:09.142 --> 0:14:11.902 and I ended up having two chapters for two of 0:14:11.902 --> 0:14:14.942 the survivors. Also, there were a couple there's one survivor 0:14:14.982 --> 0:14:17.742 who has passed in more recent years. And there's a 0:14:17.742 --> 0:14:20.982 couple survivors, well, one survivor I contacted and did not 0:14:21.342 --> 0:14:24.702 really want to go there, and then another survivor I 0:14:24.782 --> 0:14:28.262 was not able to contact. So seven chapters of people 0:14:28.262 --> 0:14:31.662 who were assaulted as victim centric as I could make it, 0:14:31.702 --> 0:14:34.542 And boy, I will tell you that was quite a challenge, 0:14:34.662 --> 0:14:40.262 because you know, you hunt online for family members of 0:14:40.382 --> 0:14:45.342 these five women who lost their lives, and it's challenging 0:14:45.382 --> 0:14:48.822 to find them, but it's just as challenging or more 0:14:48.902 --> 0:14:53.222 challenging to be able to contact them and get a response. 0:14:53.302 --> 0:14:56.862 Because of course I totally understand why would you want 0:14:56.862 --> 0:14:59.462 to talk about that. Okay, you're writing a book, Well, 0:14:59.542 --> 0:15:02.022 you're just going to make money off this case and whatever. 0:15:02.062 --> 0:15:05.302 There's that perception, and I can tell you this, these 0:15:05.342 --> 0:15:09.062 books are really not necessarily moneymakers, not at all. And 0:15:09.342 --> 0:15:12.502 I was very concerned and that I really was not 0:15:12.582 --> 0:15:15.062 going to be able to get enough information for a 0:15:15.142 --> 0:15:17.062 chapter on each one, and I set out to at 0:15:17.142 --> 0:15:20.782 least find one person to speak for each one of 0:15:20.822 --> 0:15:24.022 those gals, and thankfully for some of them, I got 0:15:24.102 --> 0:15:26.862 multiple people. Rose felt I thought I was going to 0:15:26.862 --> 0:15:30.102 get nobody for Rose felt to even learn who she was, 0:15:30.382 --> 0:15:36.142 and ended up speaking with four different family members, including 0:15:36.182 --> 0:15:39.862 her daughter and her brother. So I'm very, very blessed 0:15:39.862 --> 0:15:42.182 by that that I was able to break through to 0:15:42.262 --> 0:15:45.222 that that was the most important thing to me, was 0:15:45.262 --> 0:15:49.782 to show these valuable lives that were taken, that each 0:15:49.862 --> 0:15:52.262 one of these people, no matter where she ended up, 0:15:53.022 --> 0:15:56.222 each one of these people deserved to live and had 0:15:56.222 --> 0:15:59.422 a life just like you and me. I was hoping, 0:16:00.342 --> 0:16:06.142 honestly to startle people by this, to challenge their preconceived 0:16:06.222 --> 0:16:10.022 notions that a female living on the street has always 0:16:10.102 --> 0:16:12.062 been out and out and that's just the way they 0:16:12.102 --> 0:16:14.582 were raised, or what are our preconceived notions that people 0:16:14.662 --> 0:16:20.142 have about a sex worker, and show that, you know, 0:16:20.182 --> 0:16:23.142 a lot of people who end up in this kind 0:16:23.182 --> 0:16:29.342 of outrisk situation had very normal seeming lives as children. 0:16:29.462 --> 0:16:33.662 He had loving parents, had just all the things that 0:16:33.742 --> 0:16:36.822 you would picture would make for a good life and 0:16:37.062 --> 0:16:40.182 something went wrong and again it comes back to addiction 0:16:40.462 --> 0:16:41.822 in a lot of these cases. 0:16:42.662 --> 0:16:45.702 Well, you were definitely successful in humanizing these women and 0:16:45.782 --> 0:16:48.942 removing just the title of sex worker, because that's you know, 0:16:48.942 --> 0:16:51.062 when there's so many murders and so many women that's 0:16:51.062 --> 0:16:55.382 often what they got reduced to in news reports exactly 0:16:55.422 --> 0:16:58.742 and say it's so so important, Yes, thank you. Let's 0:16:58.742 --> 0:17:02.222 go back to the start of John Eric Armstrong's story. 0:17:02.342 --> 0:17:04.662 There seems to be two big things that kind of 0:17:04.702 --> 0:17:09.182 shaped his childhood. His father leaving when he was quite young, 0:17:09.262 --> 0:17:10.382 and his baby brother died. 0:17:11.342 --> 0:17:15.742 He was around five years old when his baby brother 0:17:15.822 --> 0:17:19.782 died in the crib, and shortly after that his dad 0:17:19.862 --> 0:17:24.022 left the family, and there are conflicting reports of why 0:17:24.062 --> 0:17:27.982 that happened. I did speak to Armstrong's half brother that 0:17:28.022 --> 0:17:31.342 he's never met. He's got a couple siblings, at least 0:17:31.422 --> 0:17:34.662 two half brothers that he's never met and maybe was 0:17:34.702 --> 0:17:37.302 not even aware of, to tell you the truth, who 0:17:38.422 --> 0:17:43.342 had relationships with their biological father, who were very loving 0:17:43.942 --> 0:17:48.102 relationships with their biological father, and who insists that the 0:17:48.182 --> 0:17:52.622 allegations that Armstrong made about his father were totally false. 0:17:52.782 --> 0:17:56.382 And so there's that element, because after his arrest, Armstrong 0:17:56.502 --> 0:18:01.542 did allege abuse by his biological father who left the 0:18:01.582 --> 0:18:06.022 family at this young age that Armstrong was and so 0:18:06.182 --> 0:18:11.782 there's that angle. And again those allegations have really been disputed, 0:18:11.822 --> 0:18:15.102 and I think very convincingly by the half brother that 0:18:15.182 --> 0:18:18.742 I spoke to, but then the idea of the baby 0:18:18.822 --> 0:18:22.662 brother dying in the crib before any of this happened. 0:18:23.302 --> 0:18:27.942 It's interesting Armstrong was so attached to this baby brother, 0:18:28.502 --> 0:18:32.502 and he was so attached that after his baby brother died, 0:18:32.622 --> 0:18:36.302 his mother later told the media after Armstrong was arrested 0:18:36.342 --> 0:18:40.182 in Detroit. Years later, his mom was interviewed in North Carolina, 0:18:40.262 --> 0:18:44.302 where Armstrong was born and raised, and his mom told 0:18:44.342 --> 0:18:46.822 the media that he was so attached to his baby 0:18:46.822 --> 0:18:50.462 brother that, for one thing, he had written his name 0:18:50.702 --> 0:18:54.742 in the family bible multiple times, almost like a strange 0:18:54.822 --> 0:19:00.542 obsessive element. And also after the baby brother died, little Eric, 0:19:00.702 --> 0:19:03.862 as he went by went by the name Eric, rode 0:19:03.862 --> 0:19:10.182 his bike out into traffic, seeming to be attempting suicide, 0:19:10.662 --> 0:19:14.662 just such a young age, so not too long after 0:19:14.862 --> 0:19:18.982 the babie brother died. So that was definitely a traumatic 0:19:19.182 --> 0:19:23.702 experience for him, we have to say, an interesting element 0:19:23.782 --> 0:19:24.662 of his background. 0:19:28.662 --> 0:19:32.142 Up next, we discussed Natasha, the first woman who escaped 0:19:32.182 --> 0:19:39.182 from John Eric Armstrong, and what happened to her After school, 0:19:39.222 --> 0:19:42.062 he joined the Navy, he met his wife, they had 0:19:42.062 --> 0:19:44.942 a baby. You know, reading his story, it all sounds 0:19:44.942 --> 0:19:48.302 like a pretty normal trajectory for a young man to take. 0:19:49.342 --> 0:19:52.542 Do we know what kind of person he was, what 0:19:52.662 --> 0:19:55.062 kind of colleague, husband, father? 0:19:56.102 --> 0:20:00.422 Yeah, the people that I spoke with who served with 0:20:00.542 --> 0:20:04.502 him in the United States Navy. He served aboard a 0:20:04.662 --> 0:20:08.102 ship called the Nimetz, the uss N nemts and aircraft carrier, 0:20:08.182 --> 0:20:11.262 a pretty well known ship here in the US, traveled 0:20:11.262 --> 0:20:15.302 all over the place. And if you go online and 0:20:15.382 --> 0:20:18.942 you listen to podcasts that have been done on the case, 0:20:19.062 --> 0:20:22.742 not podcasts with interviews like the one that you're doing, 0:20:22.782 --> 0:20:26.942 but podcasts that cover like news headlines and cover facts 0:20:26.942 --> 0:20:30.662 about cases. And you look at the comments that are 0:20:30.742 --> 0:20:33.302 made on some of those, and even blog posts about 0:20:33.302 --> 0:20:35.622 the case too. If you look at how people comment 0:20:35.702 --> 0:20:40.702 to those about Armstrong, you'll see that there's a lot 0:20:40.742 --> 0:20:44.622 of Nimets shipmates that go in and comment and they 0:20:44.662 --> 0:20:48.022 say things like, I never would have thought this was 0:20:48.062 --> 0:20:52.422 so shocking, this, I totally cannot believe this. You know, 0:20:52.462 --> 0:20:56.262 this just does not seem real. And he was referred 0:20:56.302 --> 0:20:59.182 to as Opie while he served in the Navy aboard 0:20:59.182 --> 0:21:02.222 the Nimets, and that was because if you're familiar with 0:21:02.302 --> 0:21:06.102 the character and the Mayberry character, the TV show character, 0:21:06.742 --> 0:21:10.182 I guess, Richie Cunningham. I think of him as on 0:21:10.222 --> 0:21:14.582 happy days. He was red haired, and he was very innocent, 0:21:15.742 --> 0:21:19.382 sort of a sweet little boy. And that's how they 0:21:19.502 --> 0:21:23.142 saw Armstrong in the Navy. That's how they saw Eric 0:21:23.462 --> 0:21:26.222 was as this sweet boy. He was big. He was 0:21:26.262 --> 0:21:30.062 over six foot and when he lived in Detroit after 0:21:30.102 --> 0:21:32.262 the Navy, he weighed by two hundred and fifty pounds, 0:21:32.302 --> 0:21:34.982 so he was just big all over. But one of 0:21:35.022 --> 0:21:37.822 his shipmates from the NIMTZ told me he was big, 0:21:37.862 --> 0:21:42.582 but he was soft. So he seemed to be soft spoken. 0:21:43.022 --> 0:21:46.222 That's how he carried himself. And there were others who 0:21:46.262 --> 0:21:50.022 went to school with him, like elementary school, and said 0:21:50.102 --> 0:21:53.942 that he was pretty shy. He didn't really talk a lot, 0:21:54.622 --> 0:21:59.982 so soft spoken. And that's the impression that I got 0:22:00.022 --> 0:22:00.462 of him. 0:22:00.902 --> 0:22:04.142 It's a very interesting profile to build, isn't it. How 0:22:04.142 --> 0:22:07.462 did Armstrong get on polices right? Initially? 0:22:08.622 --> 0:22:14.622 That happened with the Jordan incident in January two thousand, 0:22:15.262 --> 0:22:18.142 because he had driven almost all of the way home 0:22:18.262 --> 0:22:20.662 to where he was living in Dearborn Heights at the 0:22:20.742 --> 0:22:23.742 time with Wendy in the car, and then dropped her 0:22:23.822 --> 0:22:26.942 there and went on home. This was Dearborn Heights, This 0:22:27.062 --> 0:22:30.502 was not Detroit, and that was a huge difference. Dearborn 0:22:30.542 --> 0:22:34.182 Heights did not see the homicides that Detroit did, and 0:22:34.262 --> 0:22:37.982 so when they got a homicide, they really investigated it. 0:22:38.102 --> 0:22:43.062 And so the thing was and he really put himself 0:22:43.102 --> 0:22:45.582 on Blize radar with this. He didn't have to do it, 0:22:45.702 --> 0:22:49.262 but really just hours after he left Wendy. So he 0:22:49.302 --> 0:22:52.462 gets up the next morning and he goes to work, 0:22:52.502 --> 0:22:55.622 and he works at a store in Dearborn Heights and 0:22:55.702 --> 0:22:59.062 he complains that he's not feeling very well. I'm a 0:22:59.102 --> 0:23:02.222 little sick. Can I go home early? He asked his supervisor, 0:23:02.542 --> 0:23:04.862 and as supervisor agreed to let him go home a 0:23:04.862 --> 0:23:07.582 little bit early. It was probably about four o'clock in 0:23:07.582 --> 0:23:11.902 the afternoon, and he started heading home to where he 0:23:12.022 --> 0:23:15.862 was living at Dearborn Heights, and he went by way 0:23:16.022 --> 0:23:18.942 of the bridge where he had left Wendy. And this 0:23:19.022 --> 0:23:23.102 is really just hours earlier. This is later that same 0:23:23.182 --> 0:23:25.702 day essentially, because it was the early morning hours when 0:23:25.702 --> 0:23:29.662 he left her and he drove up, he pulled over 0:23:29.782 --> 0:23:32.942 his cheep on the side of where the bridge was. 0:23:33.062 --> 0:23:35.782 He got out, he walked over the bridge. He looked 0:23:35.822 --> 0:23:38.422 over the bridge, and he saw that Wendy was still there. 0:23:38.462 --> 0:23:40.702 She had not gone anywhere, she had not floated down 0:23:40.742 --> 0:23:43.422 the river or whatever. She was still there right where 0:23:43.422 --> 0:23:47.302 he had left her. He also realized that across the 0:23:47.342 --> 0:23:50.102 street from where he was and a couple doors down, 0:23:50.582 --> 0:23:53.222 there was a young man standing outside of a house 0:23:53.262 --> 0:23:56.542 where he lived with his parents, and his girlfriend was 0:23:56.582 --> 0:23:58.462 there with him, and he was about to hop in 0:23:58.462 --> 0:24:00.782 the car and take his girlfriend home because she had 0:24:00.942 --> 0:24:03.662 been there visiting at his house. So the two of 0:24:03.702 --> 0:24:06.662 them got in the car and they headed They pulled 0:24:06.662 --> 0:24:10.342 out of the driveway and turned toward where Armstrong had 0:24:10.542 --> 0:24:14.822 parked his jeep. And I guess he realized He didn't 0:24:14.822 --> 0:24:18.502 specifically say this when police questioned him later about it, 0:24:18.622 --> 0:24:23.062 but I guess he obviously realized, Okay, they noticed me 0:24:23.262 --> 0:24:27.062 pull over my jeep, they noticed that I went and 0:24:27.182 --> 0:24:29.662 walked up to the bridge and looked over the bridge, 0:24:30.302 --> 0:24:33.822 and they're going to know this body is going to 0:24:33.862 --> 0:24:37.142 be discovered. So I guess he was thinking he was 0:24:37.142 --> 0:24:40.862