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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on It's a Chilly night in the Detroit, Michigan

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Speaker 1: winter of nineteen ninety nine, just a few weeks before Christmas,

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Speaker 1: and Monica Johnson turns to her client in his jeep Wrangler.

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Speaker 1: It'll be fifty dollars for straight sex, she tells him.

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Speaker 1: He agrees and puts on a condom. When it's over,

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Speaker 1: he starts strangling her. He doesn't remember why, but eventually

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Speaker 1: Monica stops breathing. He places her body face down on

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Speaker 1: the sidewalk and drives home. Did you intend to kill her?

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Speaker 1: Police later ask no. He tells them, how did you

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Speaker 1: feel after killing her? Awful, very hurt, Very sorry, he said.

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Speaker 1: But the seemingly innocent looking man with the red hair

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Speaker 1: and wire framed glasses didn't just kill Monica. The baby

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Speaker 1: doll serial killer, as he'll soon become known, kills at

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Speaker 1: least four more women until finally police cotton on to

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Speaker 1: his kills. I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime

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Speaker 1: Conversations Amoma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes

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Speaker 1: by speaking to the people who know the most about them.

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Speaker 1: After every kill, John Eric Armstrong went home to the

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Speaker 1: house he shared with his wife and young son and

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Speaker 1: had a long shower. He made no effort to hide

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Speaker 1: the women he murdered before his post murder ritual, leaving

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Speaker 1: their bodies out in the open, sometimes posed. He became

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Speaker 1: synonymous for his vehicle, a jeep with a distinctive number

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Speaker 1: plate that read baby Doll, a nickname from his wife

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Speaker 1: he used to pick up and kill his victims. In

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Speaker 1: Armstrong is not your average serial killer, described as having

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Speaker 1: a jeckyal and hide personality, He was remorseful one minute

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Speaker 1: and describing his kills in horrific detail the next, describing

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Speaker 1: having sex with these women's bodies after he killed them.

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Speaker 1: Those who knew him remember a boy next door with

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Speaker 1: the soft, boyish demeanor. Not a vicious killer. But this

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Speaker 1: was a man able to get away with multiple murders,

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Speaker 1: potentially even as many as twenty. B. R. Bates is

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Speaker 1: a longtime author and journalist who co wrote The Baby

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Speaker 1: Doll serial Killer, The John Eric Armstrong Homicides with retired

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Speaker 1: police commander and author Gerald Cliff b. R. Bates joins us. Now,

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Speaker 1: br what can you tell us about Monica Johnson who

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Speaker 1: was found murdered in nineteen ninety nine. Who was she?

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Speaker 2: Well, she was a young lady and her thirty who

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Speaker 2: had been born and raised in Detroit, and she grew

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Speaker 2: up in the East Side mainly of the Detroit area.

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Speaker 2: And she had what you would consider pretty normal upbringing

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Speaker 2: a mom and dad's siblings, everybody together through her childhood

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Speaker 2: and then she herself in her thirties, had a few kids.

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Speaker 2: I think she had four kids, all aged ten and under.

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Speaker 2: And she was working the streets. So and we don't

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Speaker 2: know why she was working the streets. For some of

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Speaker 2: these girls, a lot of these girls, it's addiction that

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Speaker 2: puts them out there at risk living on the streets

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Speaker 2: and working the streets. But for Monica, we don't really

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Speaker 2: know that. We don't really know that she was addicted

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Speaker 2: to anything, but she was out there.

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Speaker 1: We know that she was murdered in the winter of

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine. She was strangled and found face down

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Speaker 1: in a sidewalk. What else do we know about how

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Speaker 1: she died?

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Speaker 2: It was an interesting her. I guess boyfriend. He's been

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Speaker 2: called a boyfriend he's been called a friend. His name

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Speaker 2: was Cliff. He was somebody that was close to Monica.

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Speaker 2: He drove her that night to Michigan Avenue, and Michigan

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Speaker 2: Avenue is a very thriving area of prostitution in Detroit.

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Speaker 2: This seemed to have been a regular occurrence for them.

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Speaker 2: He drove her there, he parked at Michigan and a

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Speaker 2: side street called Sharon Street, and he waited there in

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Speaker 2: the car while she walked away to do her thing

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Speaker 2: to make some money. And so she wandered off and

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Speaker 2: he fell asleep while he was waiting for her in

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Speaker 2: the car, and she didn't come back. And she didn't

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Speaker 2: try to I guess back then nineteen ninety nine, maybe

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Speaker 2: page him or something, you know, contact him on a phone.

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Speaker 2: He didn't hear from her, and when he woke up,

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Speaker 2: he realized, oh, okay, she isn't back yet, and he

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Speaker 2: just headed home. So we don't know the nature of

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Speaker 2: that relationlationship, or if this was, like I said, a

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Speaker 2: regular occurrence and this was just protocol for them. Who

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Speaker 2: knows what was going on. But unfortunately Monica had encountered

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Speaker 2: her last pain customer. You would say she had accepted

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Speaker 2: a transaction with a person who then strangled her and

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Speaker 2: left her to die on the sidewalk at a service

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Speaker 2: drive off Interstate ninety four and Detroit, little service drive

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Speaker 2: called spring Wells. And so he had left her there

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Speaker 2: and driven away.

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Speaker 1: What is the crime right like over in Detroit is

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Speaker 1: murda something that is common.

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Speaker 2: Yes, in the city of Detroit. Monica was one of

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Speaker 2: about four hundred homicides I believe that year. Wow. And

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Speaker 2: so this was December twod when Monica was killed. And

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Speaker 2: so when the least realized, Okay, we have this young

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Speaker 2: woman who is dead, and she appears to a better

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Speaker 2: prostitute and they did id her and realize, yes, she

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Speaker 2: was working the street. It really was not even a

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Speaker 2: blip on the radar. It was not any cause of concern.

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Speaker 2: It was investigated for a short time and then it

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Speaker 2: was dropped.

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Speaker 1: Full hundred is an insane number. I knew it was high.

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was that high. Right, Another sex

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Speaker 1: worker was murdered in Detroit and her name was Wendy Jordan.

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Speaker 1: What happened to her?

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Speaker 2: Wendy is somebody who did not live on the street

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Speaker 2: so much as she wandered off there now and then

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Speaker 2: but she also held down regular jobs in her life,

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Speaker 2: and she had sisters who cared very much about her

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Speaker 2: and would definitely know when she was missing or when

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Speaker 2: she had fallen back on her own addiction, because that

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Speaker 2: was what it was for Wendy. It was a matter

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Speaker 2: of a day. It was January first when she encountered

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Speaker 2: the same person who Monica had encountered, and this was

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Speaker 2: off Warren Avenue actually in Detroit. This was one of

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Speaker 2: the very few people that Armstrong picked up who was

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Speaker 2: not on Michigan Avenue. This is like the one case

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Speaker 2: I think, or actually two cases out of ten people

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Speaker 2: where the female was not on Michigan Avenue. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: he picked up Wendy on Warren and took her to

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Speaker 2: a side street parked behind a funeral home, as crazy

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Speaker 2: as it is, and he strangled Wendy. And the strange

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Speaker 2: thing about the case with Wendy is that he took

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Speaker 2: her in his jeep instead of just throwing her out

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Speaker 2: of the jeep, which is what he did with all

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Speaker 2: the rest of the assaults that he committed in Detroit.

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Speaker 2: He took Wendy in his jeep almost all the way

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Speaker 2: to his home, which was in a suburb of Detroit

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Speaker 2: on the west side of Detroit, a suburb called Dearborn Heights,

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Speaker 2: and he was almost all the way home. He was

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Speaker 2: about a block from home when he pulled over and

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Speaker 2: he dropped her over a bridge onto the Rouge River, which,

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Speaker 2: because this was January in Michigan, it was very cold

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Speaker 2: and it was partially frozen. There was some water and

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Speaker 2: there was some ice, and so he dropped Wendy down

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Speaker 2: onto the river. And then he continued on home and

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Speaker 2: went to bed like usual, as if you know, nothing

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Speaker 2: was different about that night.

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Speaker 1: I noticed that he seemed to have, you know, like

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Speaker 1: a kind of postmode of ritual. He'd go home and

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Speaker 1: have a long shalla.

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Speaker 2: Every time he did say that in his confessions to police,

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Speaker 2: they would say, okay, what happened, then what did you do? Then? Well,

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Speaker 2: I went home and yeah, he often does mention a shower,

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Speaker 2: and then he crawled into bed with his wife. And

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Speaker 2: I think his wife was really not from everything that

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Speaker 2: I understand, his wife really was not aware of how

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Speaker 2: long he was even out, and I really don't believe

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Speaker 2: she was aware of what he was doing.

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Speaker 1: I want to skip to another victim. Her name was

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Speaker 1: Rose Marie Felt, and she died in March two thousand.

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Speaker 1: What led her to sex work.

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Speaker 2: She was introduced to cocaine as a teenager. I want

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Speaker 2: to say, like fifteen sixteen. I spoke with the man

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Speaker 2: who was the one who was very honest about saying,

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Speaker 2: I'm the one I can tell you exactly when Rose

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Speaker 2: became addicted, because I'm the one who introduced her to it,

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Speaker 2: and that was her. I guess you'd call it a

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Speaker 2: baby daddy. That's another thing he was very honest about.

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Speaker 2: Rose became pregnant at only age fifteen or sixteen, but

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Speaker 2: she also had been living the street life a little

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Speaker 2: bit then. She was essentially a runaway. She was just

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Speaker 2: kind of drawn into all of these things at a

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Speaker 2: very young age, and so introduced to drugs in the

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Speaker 2: of course, as with a lot of these other females,

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Speaker 2: and how do I need to pay for my drugs?

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Speaker 2: You know, how am I going to pay for my drugs?

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Speaker 2: You know, that becomes the question, and so later they

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Speaker 2: will often turn to prostitution. But yeah, she was very

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Speaker 2: young and had a child, and then her daughter was

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Speaker 2: taken care of by her boyfriend's parents, and it was

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Speaker 2: a very fractured situation in Rose's life from a very

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Speaker 2: young age, unfortunately, and when she died she was in

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Speaker 2: her thirties, and so she had been living in that life,

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Speaker 2: in an unstable, at risk life for quite a few years.

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Speaker 1: And was she murdered in a similar fashion to the

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Speaker 1: other women we've discovered.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, she was picked up on Michigan Avenue my

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Speaker 2: arms Strong and they agreed on a transaction and he

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Speaker 2: strangled her. She introduced him to a place because typically

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Speaker 2: he wou he would hunt on Michigan Avenue, he would

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Speaker 2: pick someone up and then he would drive somewhere close by. Well,

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Speaker 2: Rose was the one who introduced Armstrong to the stretch

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Speaker 2: of railroad tracks that are at Military and John Cronk

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Speaker 2: Streets in southwest Detroit, and she told him she knew

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Speaker 2: a place, and so they drove over there. There was

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Speaker 2: there's like a part where you're driving in that area

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Speaker 2: and you pull into a parking lot where there used

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Speaker 2: to be a business. I'm sure it's been long closed now,

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Speaker 2: but you pull into a parking lot and then there's

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Speaker 2: part of the parking lot that goes up into a

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Speaker 2: service drive that's next to the railroad tracks and when

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Speaker 2: you get up there, it is pretty secluded. There's trees

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Speaker 2: and other buildings around, and so it was a popular

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Speaker 2: place for people to go to do drugs or to

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Speaker 2: do prostitution back then. And so she knew up that

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Speaker 2: place and pointed that out to him, and he drove

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Speaker 2: up there and that's where he left her. He left

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Speaker 2: her in the brush and then drove home from there.

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Speaker 1: And that's why he left the buddies of three minutes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Rose was the first. Then he encountered Kelly Hood

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Speaker 2: and he took her to that same place that Rose

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Speaker 2: had shown him. And then the third female that he

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Speaker 2: took there was Nicole Young, who was also known by

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Speaker 2: the name Robin Brown on the street, and she was

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Speaker 2: the last one left there, but he left her close

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Speaker 2: to where the actual tracks were. He didn't really hide

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Speaker 2: her in the brush. He left her out in plain

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Speaker 2: view and she was discovered only hours later.

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Speaker 1: On all of those deaths, those last three in particular,

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Speaker 1: were very close to get the went.

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Speaker 2: They Yes, Rose, we figure was mid March, based on

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Speaker 2: the fact that she had been seen in Grand Rapids

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Speaker 2: on the other side of the state in earlier March.

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Speaker 2: I think it was like March seventh, she had gotten

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Speaker 2: a citation in Grand Rapids for loitering. I believe it was,

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Speaker 2: and so we know she was alive in the first

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Speaker 2: full week of March, and based on timing and the research,

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Speaker 2: it was probably around in mid March and Kelly Hood.

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Speaker 2: I think it was early April for Kelly because based

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Speaker 2: on what her family members said about speaking with her

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Speaker 2: on the phone and when they last saw her. And

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Speaker 2: then Robin Brown, while Nicole would have been around the

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Speaker 2: ninth of April, so he was escalating.

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Speaker 1: People are fascinated by serial killers. We always have been,

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Speaker 1: we still remain to be. It struck me that in

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Speaker 1: your book you spent so much time detailing the lives

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Speaker 1: of these women, and you opened the book like that,

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Speaker 1: one by one by one, detailing the lives of the

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Speaker 1: women he killed. Was that a very kind of strong

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Speaker 1: decision on your part to honor their lives?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely absolutely. I wanted this book to be victim centric,

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Speaker 2: and so I was very determined to start out with

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Speaker 2: a chapter on each one of the females who had died,

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Speaker 2: and I ended up having two chapters for two of

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Speaker 2: the survivors. Also, there were a couple there's one survivor

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Speaker 2: who has passed in more recent years. And there's a

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Speaker 2: couple survivors, well, one survivor I contacted and did not

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Speaker 2: really want to go there, and then another survivor I

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Speaker 2: was not able to contact. So seven chapters of people

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Speaker 2: who were assaulted as victim centric as I could make it,

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Speaker 2: And boy, I will tell you that was quite a challenge,

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Speaker 2: because you know, you hunt online for family members of

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Speaker 2: these five women who lost their lives, and it's challenging

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Speaker 2: to find them, but it's just as challenging or more

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Speaker 2: challenging to be able to contact them and get a response.

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Speaker 2: Because of course I totally understand why would you want

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Speaker 2: to talk about that. Okay, you're writing a book, Well,

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Speaker 2: you're just going to make money off this case and whatever.

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Speaker 2: There's that perception, and I can tell you this, these

246
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Speaker 2: books are really not necessarily moneymakers, not at all. And

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Speaker 2: I was very concerned and that I really was not

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Speaker 2: going to be able to get enough information for a

249
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Speaker 2: chapter on each one, and I set out to at

250
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Speaker 2: least find one person to speak for each one of

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Speaker 2: those gals, and thankfully for some of them, I got

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Speaker 2: multiple people. Rose felt I thought I was going to

253
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Speaker 2: get nobody for Rose felt to even learn who she was,

254
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Speaker 2: and ended up speaking with four different family members, including

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Speaker 2: her daughter and her brother. So I'm very, very blessed

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Speaker 2: by that that I was able to break through to

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Speaker 2: that that was the most important thing to me, was

258
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Speaker 2: to show these valuable lives that were taken, that each

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Speaker 2: one of these people, no matter where she ended up,

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Speaker 2: each one of these people deserved to live and had

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Speaker 2: a life just like you and me. I was hoping,

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Speaker 2: honestly to startle people by this, to challenge their preconceived

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Speaker 2: notions that a female living on the street has always

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Speaker 2: been out and out and that's just the way they

265
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Speaker 2: were raised, or what are our preconceived notions that people

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Speaker 2: have about a sex worker, and show that, you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who end up in this kind

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Speaker 2: of outrisk situation had very normal seeming lives as children.

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Speaker 2: He had loving parents, had just all the things that

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Speaker 2: you would picture would make for a good life and

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Speaker 2: something went wrong and again it comes back to addiction

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Speaker 2: in a lot of these cases.

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Speaker 1: Well, you were definitely successful in humanizing these women and

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Speaker 1: removing just the title of sex worker, because that's you know,

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Speaker 1: when there's so many murders and so many women that's

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Speaker 1: often what they got reduced to in news reports exactly

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Speaker 1: and say it's so so important, Yes, thank you. Let's

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Speaker 1: go back to the start of John Eric Armstrong's story.

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Speaker 1: There seems to be two big things that kind of

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Speaker 1: shaped his childhood. His father leaving when he was quite young,

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Speaker 1: and his baby brother died.

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Speaker 2: He was around five years old when his baby brother

283
00:17:15,822 --> 00:17:19,782
Speaker 2: died in the crib, and shortly after that his dad

284
00:17:19,862 --> 00:17:24,022
Speaker 2: left the family, and there are conflicting reports of why

285
00:17:24,062 --> 00:17:27,982
Speaker 2: that happened. I did speak to Armstrong's half brother that

286
00:17:28,022 --> 00:17:31,342
Speaker 2: he's never met. He's got a couple siblings, at least

287
00:17:31,422 --> 00:17:34,662
Speaker 2: two half brothers that he's never met and maybe was

288
00:17:34,702 --> 00:17:37,302
Speaker 2: not even aware of, to tell you the truth, who

289
00:17:38,422 --> 00:17:43,342
Speaker 2: had relationships with their biological father, who were very loving

290
00:17:43,942 --> 00:17:48,102
Speaker 2: relationships with their biological father, and who insists that the

291
00:17:48,182 --> 00:17:52,622
Speaker 2: allegations that Armstrong made about his father were totally false.

292
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Speaker 2: And so there's that element, because after his arrest, Armstrong

293
00:17:56,502 --> 00:18:01,542
Speaker 2: did allege abuse by his biological father who left the

294
00:18:01,582 --> 00:18:06,022
Speaker 2: family at this young age that Armstrong was and so

295
00:18:06,182 --> 00:18:11,782
Speaker 2: there's that angle. And again those allegations have really been disputed,

296
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Speaker 2: and I think very convincingly by the half brother that

297
00:18:15,182 --> 00:18:18,742
Speaker 2: I spoke to, but then the idea of the baby

298
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Speaker 2: brother dying in the crib before any of this happened.

299
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Speaker 2: It's interesting Armstrong was so attached to this baby brother,

300
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Speaker 2: and he was so attached that after his baby brother died,

301
00:18:32,622 --> 00:18:36,302
Speaker 2: his mother later told the media after Armstrong was arrested

302
00:18:36,342 --> 00:18:40,182
Speaker 2: in Detroit. Years later, his mom was interviewed in North Carolina,

303
00:18:40,262 --> 00:18:44,302
Speaker 2: where Armstrong was born and raised, and his mom told

304
00:18:44,342 --> 00:18:46,822
Speaker 2: the media that he was so attached to his baby

305
00:18:46,822 --> 00:18:50,462
Speaker 2: brother that, for one thing, he had written his name

306
00:18:50,702 --> 00:18:54,742
Speaker 2: in the family bible multiple times, almost like a strange

307
00:18:54,822 --> 00:19:00,542
Speaker 2: obsessive element. And also after the baby brother died, little Eric,

308
00:19:00,702 --> 00:19:03,862
Speaker 2: as he went by went by the name Eric, rode

309
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Speaker 2: his bike out into traffic, seeming to be attempting suicide,

310
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Speaker 2: just such a young age, so not too long after

311
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Speaker 2: the babie brother died. So that was definitely a traumatic

312
00:19:19,182 --> 00:19:23,702
Speaker 2: experience for him, we have to say, an interesting element

313
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Speaker 2: of his background.

314
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Speaker 1: Up next, we discussed Natasha, the first woman who escaped

315
00:19:32,182 --> 00:19:39,182
Speaker 1: from John Eric Armstrong, and what happened to her After school,

316
00:19:39,222 --> 00:19:42,062
Speaker 1: he joined the Navy, he met his wife, they had

317
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Speaker 1: a baby. You know, reading his story, it all sounds

318
00:19:44,942 --> 00:19:48,302
Speaker 1: like a pretty normal trajectory for a young man to take.

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Speaker 1: Do we know what kind of person he was, what

320
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Speaker 1: kind of colleague, husband, father?

321
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the people that I spoke with who served with

322
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Speaker 2: him in the United States Navy. He served aboard a

323
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Speaker 2: ship called the Nimetz, the uss N nemts and aircraft carrier,

324
00:20:08,182 --> 00:20:11,262
Speaker 2: a pretty well known ship here in the US, traveled

325
00:20:11,262 --> 00:20:15,302
Speaker 2: all over the place. And if you go online and

326
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Speaker 2: you listen to podcasts that have been done on the case,

327
00:20:19,062 --> 00:20:22,742
Speaker 2: not podcasts with interviews like the one that you're doing,

328
00:20:22,782 --> 00:20:26,942
Speaker 2: but podcasts that cover like news headlines and cover facts

329
00:20:26,942 --> 00:20:30,662
Speaker 2: about cases. And you look at the comments that are

330
00:20:30,742 --> 00:20:33,302
Speaker 2: made on some of those, and even blog posts about

331
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Speaker 2: the case too. If you look at how people comment

332
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Speaker 2: to those about Armstrong, you'll see that there's a lot

333
00:20:40,742 --> 00:20:44,622
Speaker 2: of Nimets shipmates that go in and comment and they

334
00:20:44,662 --> 00:20:48,022
Speaker 2: say things like, I never would have thought this was

335
00:20:48,062 --> 00:20:52,422
Speaker 2: so shocking, this, I totally cannot believe this. You know,

336
00:20:52,462 --> 00:20:56,262
Speaker 2: this just does not seem real. And he was referred

337
00:20:56,302 --> 00:20:59,182
Speaker 2: to as Opie while he served in the Navy aboard

338
00:20:59,182 --> 00:21:02,222
Speaker 2: the Nimets, and that was because if you're familiar with

339
00:21:02,302 --> 00:21:06,102
Speaker 2: the character and the Mayberry character, the TV show character,

340
00:21:06,742 --> 00:21:10,182
Speaker 2: I guess, Richie Cunningham. I think of him as on

341
00:21:10,222 --> 00:21:14,582
Speaker 2: happy days. He was red haired, and he was very innocent,

342
00:21:15,742 --> 00:21:19,382
Speaker 2: sort of a sweet little boy. And that's how they

343
00:21:19,502 --> 00:21:23,142
Speaker 2: saw Armstrong in the Navy. That's how they saw Eric

344
00:21:23,462 --> 00:21:26,222
Speaker 2: was as this sweet boy. He was big. He was

345
00:21:26,262 --> 00:21:30,062
Speaker 2: over six foot and when he lived in Detroit after

346
00:21:30,102 --> 00:21:32,262
Speaker 2: the Navy, he weighed by two hundred and fifty pounds,

347
00:21:32,302 --> 00:21:34,982
Speaker 2: so he was just big all over. But one of

348
00:21:35,022 --> 00:21:37,822
Speaker 2: his shipmates from the NIMTZ told me he was big,

349
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Speaker 2: but he was soft. So he seemed to be soft spoken.

350
00:21:43,022 --> 00:21:46,222
Speaker 2: That's how he carried himself. And there were others who

351
00:21:46,262 --> 00:21:50,022
Speaker 2: went to school with him, like elementary school, and said

352
00:21:50,102 --> 00:21:53,942
Speaker 2: that he was pretty shy. He didn't really talk a lot,

353
00:21:54,622 --> 00:21:59,982
Speaker 2: so soft spoken. And that's the impression that I got

354
00:22:00,022 --> 00:22:00,462
Speaker 2: of him.

355
00:22:00,902 --> 00:22:04,142
Speaker 1: It's a very interesting profile to build, isn't it. How

356
00:22:04,142 --> 00:22:07,462
Speaker 1: did Armstrong get on polices right? Initially?

357
00:22:08,622 --> 00:22:14,622
Speaker 2: That happened with the Jordan incident in January two thousand,

358
00:22:15,262 --> 00:22:18,142
Speaker 2: because he had driven almost all of the way home

359
00:22:18,262 --> 00:22:20,662
Speaker 2: to where he was living in Dearborn Heights at the

360
00:22:20,742 --> 00:22:23,742
Speaker 2: time with Wendy in the car, and then dropped her

361
00:22:23,822 --> 00:22:26,942
Speaker 2: there and went on home. This was Dearborn Heights, This

362
00:22:27,062 --> 00:22:30,502
Speaker 2: was not Detroit, and that was a huge difference. Dearborn

363
00:22:30,542 --> 00:22:34,182
Speaker 2: Heights did not see the homicides that Detroit did, and

364
00:22:34,262 --> 00:22:37,982
Speaker 2: so when they got a homicide, they really investigated it.

365
00:22:38,102 --> 00:22:43,062
Speaker 2: And so the thing was and he really put himself

366
00:22:43,102 --> 00:22:45,582
Speaker 2: on Blize radar with this. He didn't have to do it,

367
00:22:45,702 --> 00:22:49,262
Speaker 2: but really just hours after he left Wendy. So he

368
00:22:49,302 --> 00:22:52,462
Speaker 2: gets up the next morning and he goes to work,

369
00:22:52,502 --> 00:22:55,622
Speaker 2: and he works at a store in Dearborn Heights and

370
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Speaker 2: he complains that he's not feeling very well. I'm a

371
00:22:59,102 --> 00:23:02,222
Speaker 2: little sick. Can I go home early? He asked his supervisor,

372
00:23:02,542 --> 00:23:04,862
Speaker 2: and as supervisor agreed to let him go home a

373
00:23:04,862 --> 00:23:07,582
Speaker 2: little bit early. It was probably about four o'clock in

374
00:23:07,582 --> 00:23:11,902
Speaker 2: the afternoon, and he started heading home to where he

375
00:23:12,022 --> 00:23:15,862
Speaker 2: was living at Dearborn Heights, and he went by way

376
00:23:16,022 --> 00:23:18,942
Speaker 2: of the bridge where he had left Wendy. And this

377
00:23:19,022 --> 00:23:23,102
Speaker 2: is really just hours earlier. This is later that same

378
00:23:23,182 --> 00:23:25,702
Speaker 2: day essentially, because it was the early morning hours when

379
00:23:25,702 --> 00:23:29,662
Speaker 2: he left her and he drove up, he pulled over

380
00:23:29,782 --> 00:23:32,942
Speaker 2: his cheep on the side of where the bridge was.

381
00:23:33,062 --> 00:23:35,782
Speaker 2: He got out, he walked over the bridge. He looked

382
00:23:35,822 --> 00:23:38,422
Speaker 2: over the bridge, and he saw that Wendy was still there.

383
00:23:38,462 --> 00:23:40,702
Speaker 2: She had not gone anywhere, she had not floated down

384
00:23:40,742 --> 00:23:43,422
Speaker 2: the river or whatever. She was still there right where

385
00:23:43,422 --> 00:23:47,302
Speaker 2: he had left her. He also realized that across the

386
00:23:47,342 --> 00:23:50,102
Speaker 2: street from where he was and a couple doors down,

387
00:23:50,582 --> 00:23:53,222
Speaker 2: there was a young man standing outside of a house

388
00:23:53,262 --> 00:23:56,542
Speaker 2: where he lived with his parents, and his girlfriend was

389
00:23:56,582 --> 00:23:58,462
Speaker 2: there with him, and he was about to hop in

390
00:23:58,462 --> 00:24:00,782
Speaker 2: the car and take his girlfriend home because she had

391
00:24:00,942 --> 00:24:03,662
Speaker 2: been there visiting at his house. So the two of

392
00:24:03,702 --> 00:24:06,662
Speaker 2: them got in the car and they headed They pulled

393
00:24:06,662 --> 00:24:10,342
Speaker 2: out of the driveway and turned toward where Armstrong had

394
00:24:10,542 --> 00:24:14,822
Speaker 2: parked his jeep. And I guess he realized He didn't

395
00:24:14,822 --> 00:24:18,502
Speaker 2: specifically say this when police questioned him later about it,

396
00:24:18,622 --> 00:24:23,062
Speaker 2: but I guess he obviously realized, Okay, they noticed me

397
00:24:23,262 --> 00:24:27,062
Speaker 2: pull over my jeep, they noticed that I went and

398
00:24:27,182 --> 00:24:29,662
Speaker 2: walked up to the bridge and looked over the bridge,

399
00:24:30,302 --> 00:24:33,822
Speaker 2: and they're going to know this body is going to

400
00:24:33,862 --> 00:24:37,142
Speaker 2: be discovered. So I guess he was thinking he was

401
00:24:37,142 --> 00:24:40,862
Speaker 2: getting out in front of it by flagging down the

402
00:24:40,862 --> 00:24:43,062
Speaker 2: two people in the car and saying, hey, you have

403
00:24:43,142 --> 00:24:45,222
Speaker 2: to call nine one one, there's a body here in

404
00:24:45,262 --> 00:24:47,702
Speaker 2: the river. I just saw someone. You have to call

405
00:24:47,742 --> 00:24:50,942
Speaker 2: the police. He evidently didn't have a cell phone on

406
00:24:51,062 --> 00:24:55,222
Speaker 2: him himself, so they called police. Dearborn Heights responded. They

407
00:24:55,302 --> 00:24:58,262
Speaker 2: arrived at the scene. They started questioning everyone who was

408
00:24:58,302 --> 00:25:01,822
Speaker 2: there at the scene. They started processing the scene for evidence,

409
00:25:02,502 --> 00:25:06,742
Speaker 2: and in all of that, their eyebrows were just a

410
00:25:06,742 --> 00:25:11,342
Speaker 2: little bit raised at this guy who foul In quotes

411
00:25:11,702 --> 00:25:14,702
Speaker 2: the body and the river. There was something about his

412
00:25:14,782 --> 00:25:17,542
Speaker 2: story that was not making sense. He claimed that he

413
00:25:17,662 --> 00:25:20,782
Speaker 2: had pulled over there to vomit. He was feeling sick.

414
00:25:21,102 --> 00:25:23,262
Speaker 2: That's the story that he had set up at work

415
00:25:23,262 --> 00:25:25,342
Speaker 2: that day. I'm not feeling well? Could I leave early?

416
00:25:26,302 --> 00:25:30,102
Speaker 2: So what didn't make sense to them is that there

417
00:25:30,142 --> 00:25:33,182
Speaker 2: was no vomit anywhere. He didn't actually throw up. And

418
00:25:33,262 --> 00:25:36,702
Speaker 2: one of the police officers who investigated the case told

419
00:25:36,742 --> 00:25:40,462
Speaker 2: me years later, well, if you're pulling over for one thing,

420
00:25:40,582 --> 00:25:42,662
Speaker 2: why are you going to pull over there when you're

421
00:25:42,702 --> 00:25:46,582
Speaker 2: only a block from home if you're feeling sick. And

422
00:25:46,662 --> 00:25:50,902
Speaker 2: so his behavior was a little strange. Plus they knew

423
00:25:51,142 --> 00:25:54,302
Speaker 2: the vehicle that he was driving. They were a little

424
00:25:54,342 --> 00:25:58,182
Speaker 2: suspicious by something that they saw in the jeep when

425
00:25:58,182 --> 00:26:01,622
Speaker 2: they were looking inside, Wendy had been wearing a pair

426
00:26:01,662 --> 00:26:05,102
Speaker 2: of gold colored shoes, and it appeared that there were

427
00:26:05,142 --> 00:26:08,822
Speaker 2: like little flecks of gold inside the cheep, like on

428
00:26:08,902 --> 00:26:11,542
Speaker 2: the floor on the passenger side. So there were some

429
00:26:11,582 --> 00:26:12,742
Speaker 2: suspicious things.

430
00:26:13,342 --> 00:26:15,982
Speaker 1: And tell me about what happened with the DNA, because

431
00:26:16,862 --> 00:26:21,822
Speaker 1: they collected DNA, but because it was nineteen ninety nine,

432
00:26:22,062 --> 00:26:26,342
Speaker 1: two thousand ish, it takes several months to kind of

433
00:26:26,542 --> 00:26:27,422
Speaker 1: have that comeback.

434
00:26:27,502 --> 00:26:32,542
Speaker 2: It seems outlandish, but yes, it took three months. They

435
00:26:32,582 --> 00:26:37,702
Speaker 2: collected Armstrong's DNA in like the second or third week

436
00:26:37,862 --> 00:26:40,982
Speaker 2: of January two thousand they got the warrants. They took

437
00:26:41,022 --> 00:26:44,382
Speaker 2: all kinds of samples and they sent them off to

438
00:26:44,422 --> 00:26:47,782
Speaker 2: the lab, and they did not get the final results.

439
00:26:47,822 --> 00:26:52,622
Speaker 2: They got some preliminary reports. But the DA, I guess

440
00:26:52,702 --> 00:26:56,742
Speaker 2: you'd say, the prosecutor's office in Wayne County, which is

441
00:26:56,782 --> 00:27:01,622
Speaker 2: where this was, would not issue the warrant for his arrest.

442
00:27:01,742 --> 00:27:04,462
Speaker 2: You know, they wanted to build a solid case as

443
00:27:04,502 --> 00:27:06,662
Speaker 2: they could, to make sure that they could hold him

444
00:27:06,902 --> 00:27:09,862
Speaker 2: and not have him released on some kind of technicality

445
00:27:09,982 --> 00:27:15,542
Speaker 2: or weak part of the case. And so the prosecutor's

446
00:27:16,022 --> 00:27:19,662
Speaker 2: office insisted on the final report of the DNA, which

447
00:27:19,662 --> 00:27:24,622
Speaker 2: did not arrive until around April twelfth, I believe it was,

448
00:27:24,742 --> 00:27:28,742
Speaker 2: So it was basically a full three months later before

449
00:27:28,862 --> 00:27:33,142
Speaker 2: those DNA results came in and were finalized. And yeah, nowadays,

450
00:27:33,222 --> 00:27:36,302
Speaker 2: because our technology has advanced so much, it seems just

451
00:27:36,422 --> 00:27:37,782
Speaker 2: crazy that that happened.

452
00:27:38,622 --> 00:27:42,942
Speaker 1: And what that delay meant was he murdered Rose Kelly

453
00:27:43,142 --> 00:27:44,342
Speaker 1: and Nicole Yes.

454
00:27:44,462 --> 00:27:47,182
Speaker 2: In the meantime, he murdered three more people and he

455
00:27:47,462 --> 00:27:52,702
Speaker 2: attacked three others who survived, so he forever affected their

456
00:27:52,742 --> 00:27:53,902
Speaker 2: lives as well.

457
00:27:54,502 --> 00:27:57,862
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the crime scenes. They were numerous.

458
00:27:57,902 --> 00:28:00,942
Speaker 1: At the rial tracks where he dumped three of the

459
00:28:00,942 --> 00:28:04,742
Speaker 1: women's bodies, there was quite a lot of evidence for

460
00:28:04,862 --> 00:28:07,622
Speaker 1: detectives to kind of bag and test. There wasn't there.

461
00:28:07,782 --> 00:28:11,902
Speaker 2: Yes, that was the challenge of it. You had this

462
00:28:12,542 --> 00:28:17,342
Speaker 2: highly frequented area where there was a lot of illicit activity,

463
00:28:17,822 --> 00:28:21,782
Speaker 2: like I said, drugs, prostitution, people just doing meetups or

464
00:28:21,822 --> 00:28:25,222
Speaker 2: whatever the case. You also had the police talk to

465
00:28:25,342 --> 00:28:28,702
Speaker 2: a couple people who just walked through there. One person

466
00:28:28,782 --> 00:28:31,702
Speaker 2: would walk through there on their way home from work.

467
00:28:31,862 --> 00:28:34,902
Speaker 2: So it was just a busy neighborhood. But everybody who

468
00:28:34,982 --> 00:28:38,142
Speaker 2: lived in that surrounding part of the neighborhood and the

469
00:28:38,142 --> 00:28:42,262
Speaker 2: blocks around there. Knew that that area was frequented with

470
00:28:42,422 --> 00:28:47,502
Speaker 2: illicit activity. So because of that, you had all kinds

471
00:28:47,542 --> 00:28:51,262
Speaker 2: of stuff at those railroad tracks, and Detroit Police had

472
00:28:51,382 --> 00:28:54,662
Speaker 2: crime scene photos that showed just the full range of

473
00:28:54,822 --> 00:28:58,142
Speaker 2: articles of clothing that did not belong to the three

474
00:28:58,182 --> 00:29:00,782
Speaker 2: females who were found, just articles of clothing that people

475
00:29:00,782 --> 00:29:06,262
Speaker 2: had left there, the shoe, cigarette cases, and definitely condoms

476
00:29:06,342 --> 00:29:08,662
Speaker 2: and lots and lots of cigarette butts. And I think

477
00:29:08,702 --> 00:29:11,102
Speaker 2: that was something that was remarked by one of the

478
00:29:11,142 --> 00:29:14,342
Speaker 2: officers who was processing the scene as like, oh my gosh,

479
00:29:14,742 --> 00:29:18,942
Speaker 2: like our commanding officer forced us to pick up each

480
00:29:19,142 --> 00:29:22,262
Speaker 2: and every cigarette butt, and there were a lot of them.

481
00:29:22,542 --> 00:29:25,422
Speaker 2: So that is a lot of processing at the lab,

482
00:29:25,782 --> 00:29:30,742
Speaker 2: but definitely an array of evidence collected there and things

483
00:29:30,822 --> 00:29:34,262
Speaker 2: like tire tracks and things of that sort that were

484
00:29:34,302 --> 00:29:36,822
Speaker 2: processed in the lab as well.

485
00:29:36,902 --> 00:29:40,382
Speaker 1: What did that mean for trying to narrow down the

486
00:29:40,422 --> 00:29:43,142
Speaker 1: evidence on Armstrong.

487
00:29:42,942 --> 00:29:46,942
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's difficult. It's I'm sure clouding up the picture

488
00:29:47,022 --> 00:29:50,942
Speaker 2: when you have so many items to process, and of course,

489
00:29:51,022 --> 00:29:54,102
Speaker 2: with each of the three women who were found, they're

490
00:29:54,102 --> 00:29:56,702
Speaker 2: going to do the DNA testing. They're going to look

491
00:29:56,782 --> 00:30:00,502
Speaker 2: for that kind of DNA evidence in them too, and

492
00:30:01,262 --> 00:30:05,502
Speaker 2: for instance, Wendy Jordan. The interesting thing about processing the

493
00:30:05,502 --> 00:30:09,382
Speaker 2: Wendy Jordans scene at the Rouge River in Dearborn Heights

494
00:30:09,902 --> 00:30:13,142
Speaker 2: is that she was lying on that combination of ice

495
00:30:13,302 --> 00:30:15,902
Speaker 2: and water that I mentioned, and they had to get

496
00:30:15,942 --> 00:30:19,462
Speaker 2: the county dive team out there, that part of law enforcement,

497
00:30:19,582 --> 00:30:21,902
Speaker 2: and they had to suit up and get in there,

498
00:30:22,062 --> 00:30:25,102
Speaker 2: and they had to before they lifted her out of

499
00:30:25,102 --> 00:30:28,902
Speaker 2: the river, they had to wrap her hands in plastic

500
00:30:29,022 --> 00:30:32,742
Speaker 2: bags just in case, for instance, she had some skin

501
00:30:32,902 --> 00:30:36,622
Speaker 2: under her fingernails or whatnot. Because they didn't want any

502
00:30:36,662 --> 00:30:39,262
Speaker 2: evidence to be destroyed, so they had to be very careful.

503
00:30:39,662 --> 00:30:43,382
Speaker 2: And their care really paid off because Wendy did have

504
00:30:43,502 --> 00:30:47,782
Speaker 2: DNA from Armstrong in her body, so they were able

505
00:30:47,902 --> 00:30:50,742
Speaker 2: to prove that. You know, when the DNA results came

506
00:30:50,782 --> 00:30:55,262
Speaker 2: back in April, it did really seal the case against Armstrong.

507
00:30:55,582 --> 00:30:57,862
Speaker 2: But yeah, the railroad tracks, of course, you have all

508
00:30:57,862 --> 00:31:01,742
Speaker 2: that different processing, and I'm sure it was a big

509
00:31:01,862 --> 00:31:04,822
Speaker 2: challenge because of the nature of that place where the

510
00:31:04,862 --> 00:31:05,862
Speaker 2: women were found.

511
00:31:06,742 --> 00:31:09,582
Speaker 1: Were these because these are two kind of separate police

512
00:31:09,582 --> 00:31:11,622
Speaker 1: departments that went to looking about were they talking to

513
00:31:11,662 --> 00:31:13,662
Speaker 1: each other? Did they know they were after the same guy.

514
00:31:14,862 --> 00:31:18,302
Speaker 2: Yep, that's a good question. I talked to an officer

515
00:31:18,342 --> 00:31:21,662
Speaker 2: at Dearborn Heights who said, yeah, we shared information. We

516
00:31:21,782 --> 00:31:26,542
Speaker 2: typically had like a daily call where we would just chat. Okay,

517
00:31:26,582 --> 00:31:28,982
Speaker 2: what he got going on over there? I mean he

518
00:31:28,982 --> 00:31:33,662
Speaker 2: would speak to officers in Detroit and just a touch base,

519
00:31:33,702 --> 00:31:37,182
Speaker 2: well we got this or we got that. And still, remarkably,

520
00:31:37,502 --> 00:31:40,702
Speaker 2: even though they had homicide in Dearborn Heights, there was

521
00:31:40,822 --> 00:31:44,542
Speaker 2: no connection and no inkling that there was a serial killer,

522
00:31:44,902 --> 00:31:48,582
Speaker 2: even though Monica had been killed in December, Wendy was

523
00:31:48,702 --> 00:31:52,382
Speaker 2: killed in January. And then the three women were found

524
00:31:52,422 --> 00:31:54,982
Speaker 2: of the Rowad tracks. That really blew it wide open.

525
00:31:55,102 --> 00:31:59,702
Speaker 2: That was April tenth, two thousand and when three people

526
00:31:59,782 --> 00:32:03,862
Speaker 2: were found of the Rowad tracks in different states of decomposition.

527
00:32:04,262 --> 00:32:08,422
Speaker 2: They realized, Okay, we got something going on here. We

528
00:32:08,582 --> 00:32:12,022
Speaker 2: actually have a serial killer in the motor City. And

529
00:32:12,622 --> 00:32:15,982
Speaker 2: then it was like that day or the next day

530
00:32:16,062 --> 00:32:21,342
Speaker 2: where the connection was made with Wendy Jordan like, oh wow, okay,

531
00:32:21,382 --> 00:32:25,542
Speaker 2: this homicide, this could be connected, even though it is

532
00:32:25,582 --> 00:32:29,822
Speaker 2: another jurisdiction, but Yeah, they to. The short answer to

533
00:32:29,862 --> 00:32:32,782
Speaker 2: your question, I guess is yes, they did exchange information

534
00:32:33,582 --> 00:32:37,182
Speaker 2: in a normal routine, but it still was not evident

535
00:32:37,382 --> 00:32:40,542
Speaker 2: that these cases were connected or that they actually had

536
00:32:40,542 --> 00:32:44,182
Speaker 2: a cereal until that day in April at the railroad Tracks.

537
00:32:46,182 --> 00:32:49,822
Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Jimmy Bass.

538
00:32:50,342 --> 00:32:53,422
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with author and journalist bon Bates about the

539
00:32:53,422 --> 00:32:57,382
Speaker 1: baby Doll serial killer. After the break. Bia tells us

540
00:32:57,422 --> 00:33:05,222
Speaker 1: how the arrest of Armstrong finally went down. How did

541
00:33:05,382 --> 00:33:08,182
Speaker 1: the arrest of Armstrong go down eventually?

542
00:33:09,742 --> 00:33:13,862
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of a crazy story to you know.

543
00:33:13,942 --> 00:33:17,702
Speaker 2: You had this Violent Crime Task Force, and my collaborator

544
00:33:17,822 --> 00:33:21,982
Speaker 2: of the book, Gerald Cliff, he was part of the

545
00:33:22,102 --> 00:33:26,342
Speaker 2: leadership of the Violent Crime Task Force, and you had

546
00:33:26,422 --> 00:33:32,382
Speaker 2: a multi agency, multi jurisdiction panel of law enforcement that

547
00:33:32,502 --> 00:33:34,222
Speaker 2: was out to get this guy, and it was a

548
00:33:34,342 --> 00:33:37,462
Speaker 2: very quick time frame. They found the three women at

549
00:33:37,462 --> 00:33:39,662
Speaker 2: the railroad tracks on April tenth, and they had him

550
00:33:39,702 --> 00:33:42,142
Speaker 2: arrested about a day and a half later, But it

551
00:33:42,222 --> 00:33:44,822
Speaker 2: actually was not by the Violent Crime Task Force. As

552
00:33:44,862 --> 00:33:47,702
Speaker 2: crazy as that was. The word went out, Okay, this

553
00:33:47,822 --> 00:33:51,142
Speaker 2: is the person we're looking for, and the Violent Crime

554
00:33:51,182 --> 00:33:54,822
Speaker 2: task Force. They had members from the FBI, the Detroit

555
00:33:54,862 --> 00:33:56,942
Speaker 2: office of the FBI, and I think it was an

556
00:33:57,022 --> 00:34:00,782
Speaker 2: FBI profiler who told them, you know, and Jerry Cliff

557
00:34:00,862 --> 00:34:04,422
Speaker 2: tells this story all the time, remembering it very well,

558
00:34:04,622 --> 00:34:07,862
Speaker 2: that the FBI person said, you know, you're focusing on

559
00:34:08,182 --> 00:34:11,422
Speaker 2: his three successes that you found to the rowad tracks

560
00:34:11,422 --> 00:34:15,702
Speaker 2: so unfortunately, but why don't you focus on his failures,

561
00:34:15,782 --> 00:34:20,422
Speaker 2: because for these three females being found dead, there's some

562
00:34:20,662 --> 00:34:24,182
Speaker 2: other people out there who probably survived to probably have

563
00:34:24,302 --> 00:34:27,502
Speaker 2: seen this guy and can tell you about them. And

564
00:34:27,542 --> 00:34:30,702
Speaker 2: that is indeed what happened. And so they found someone

565
00:34:30,782 --> 00:34:34,222
Speaker 2: who spoke to them, and after a lot of reluctance,

566
00:34:35,142 --> 00:34:38,022
Speaker 2: were able to get that person to speak to them

567
00:34:38,262 --> 00:34:41,382
Speaker 2: and come to find out it was someone who had

568
00:34:41,582 --> 00:34:46,942
Speaker 2: encountered Armstrong and had survived an attack from Armstrong and

569
00:34:47,142 --> 00:34:50,942
Speaker 2: was able to give a description, gave a description of

570
00:34:51,062 --> 00:34:56,062
Speaker 2: the jeep that he was driving, his appearance, his work

571
00:34:56,102 --> 00:34:58,382
Speaker 2: shirt that he had on with a name on the

572
00:34:58,942 --> 00:35:03,022
Speaker 2: front of it, and right down to I think he

573
00:35:03,582 --> 00:35:07,782
Speaker 2: was even included the baby doll played on the front

574
00:35:07,822 --> 00:35:11,302
Speaker 2: of the jeep, which we now know so well. And

575
00:35:11,982 --> 00:35:15,022
Speaker 2: you know, just other elements of the description, so they

576
00:35:15,062 --> 00:35:17,982
Speaker 2: had something to go on. There also was another survivor

577
00:35:18,022 --> 00:35:20,462
Speaker 2: who came forward to police and filled out a police

578
00:35:20,502 --> 00:35:24,182
Speaker 2: report because she had been trying to get home on

579
00:35:24,262 --> 00:35:27,102
Speaker 2: the bus one night on Michigan Avenue. And I guess

580
00:35:27,182 --> 00:35:31,502
Speaker 2: there was something about her that struck Armstrong as interesting

581
00:35:32,022 --> 00:35:36,382
Speaker 2: or you know, she wasn't by all accounts, she wasn't

582
00:35:36,422 --> 00:35:38,622
Speaker 2: actually out there as a sex worker, but she was

583
00:35:38,662 --> 00:35:41,022
Speaker 2: trying to get home waiting for the bus, and he

584
00:35:41,302 --> 00:35:45,422
Speaker 2: offered to give her a ride, and so he tried

585
00:35:45,502 --> 00:35:47,742
Speaker 2: to strangle her, and she was able to get away

586
00:35:47,822 --> 00:35:51,062
Speaker 2: because she was wearing a scarf and it complicated betters

587
00:35:51,062 --> 00:35:54,262
Speaker 2: for Armstrong. Plus she was carrying mace, so she got

588
00:35:54,302 --> 00:35:56,342
Speaker 2: him good with her mace and she was able to

589
00:35:56,342 --> 00:35:58,662
Speaker 2: get away. And then when the news broke about the

590
00:35:58,702 --> 00:36:01,662
Speaker 2: discovery of the road tracks, she came forward and she

591
00:36:01,862 --> 00:36:06,382
Speaker 2: gave a description that matched the other survivor's description. She

592
00:36:06,542 --> 00:36:11,302
Speaker 2: was talking about Armstrong's tattoos, which were very unique striking,

593
00:36:11,942 --> 00:36:14,862
Speaker 2: and what kind of car he drove, and what he

594
00:36:14,942 --> 00:36:17,902
Speaker 2: looked like and all of that. So police were pretty

595
00:36:17,942 --> 00:36:22,422
Speaker 2: sure they had a good description of their guy. And

596
00:36:22,662 --> 00:36:26,622
Speaker 2: then it was like a night later, when these patrol

597
00:36:26,702 --> 00:36:30,262
Speaker 2: officers were out and they were looking for that vehicle

598
00:36:30,502 --> 00:36:33,822
Speaker 2: that the survivors had talked about, and lo and behold,

599
00:36:33,902 --> 00:36:36,622
Speaker 2: there he was back out there on Michigan Avenue. As

600
00:36:36,662 --> 00:36:39,662
Speaker 2: crazy as it was. Like I said, he was escalating,

601
00:36:39,822 --> 00:36:42,582
Speaker 2: and so he was not trying to hide anymore. He

602
00:36:42,622 --> 00:36:45,342
Speaker 2: did lay low for a little while while Dearborn Heights

603
00:36:45,382 --> 00:36:49,142
Speaker 2: was investigating him back in January. He laid low, and

604
00:36:49,182 --> 00:36:51,662
Speaker 2: he cooled it for a couple months. But now he

605
00:36:51,742 --> 00:36:54,422
Speaker 2: had just killed a few people, few different people, had

606
00:36:54,422 --> 00:36:56,462
Speaker 2: assaulted others, and he was right back out there on

607
00:36:56,502 --> 00:36:59,982
Speaker 2: Michigan Avenue. Even though he had to have heard about

608
00:37:00,022 --> 00:37:02,102
Speaker 2: the discovery of the roilroad tracks, he had to have

609
00:37:02,222 --> 00:37:05,342
Speaker 2: heard that these three females had been found. But yet

610
00:37:05,342 --> 00:37:08,622
Speaker 2: there he was, back out hunting. And so they pulled

611
00:37:08,662 --> 00:37:12,622
Speaker 2: them over, and they began to realize, okay, we actually

612
00:37:12,662 --> 00:37:13,622
Speaker 2: have our guy here.

613
00:37:14,302 --> 00:37:17,902
Speaker 1: And he confessed pretty much straight away, didn't.

614
00:37:17,702 --> 00:37:22,222
Speaker 2: He It didn't take long. The patrol officers who took

615
00:37:22,302 --> 00:37:27,222
Speaker 2: him downtown claimed that he was muttering under his breath

616
00:37:27,222 --> 00:37:29,902
Speaker 2: in the backseat, I'm glad it's over. I'm glad it's over. Well,

617
00:37:29,902 --> 00:37:33,302
Speaker 2: that's not really a confession, although the one officer said

618
00:37:33,342 --> 00:37:35,822
Speaker 2: they started to give him his rights at that point

619
00:37:35,862 --> 00:37:38,222
Speaker 2: because they were concerned they were here in a confession.

620
00:37:38,742 --> 00:37:41,502
Speaker 2: They saw what he was saying. But he got downtown

621
00:37:41,862 --> 00:37:45,422
Speaker 2: and police began to question him, and there were two

622
00:37:45,502 --> 00:37:48,222
Speaker 2: officers who were sent into the room with him. There

623
00:37:48,342 --> 00:37:50,422
Speaker 2: was a guy who was a little bit more of

624
00:37:50,422 --> 00:37:54,102
Speaker 2: a rookie who was young like Armstrong, just about his

625
00:37:54,222 --> 00:37:58,022
Speaker 2: same age, and so there was an appeal to that

626
00:37:58,222 --> 00:38:00,822
Speaker 2: idea of sending in a young guy to talk to him,

627
00:38:00,862 --> 00:38:03,462
Speaker 2: to develop a rapport with him. And then the other

628
00:38:03,542 --> 00:38:05,942
Speaker 2: officer who went into the room was a more seasoned

629
00:38:05,982 --> 00:38:09,902
Speaker 2: veteran who was known to be a really good interrogator.

630
00:38:10,502 --> 00:38:14,702
Speaker 2: The two of them started with I guess your stereotypical

631
00:38:14,822 --> 00:38:19,262
Speaker 2: small talk, you know, I'm talking about sports teams and

632
00:38:19,302 --> 00:38:23,622
Speaker 2: breakfast cereals and whatever. And maybe it was an hour

633
00:38:23,782 --> 00:38:27,182
Speaker 2: or two before they finally broke him and got him

634
00:38:27,342 --> 00:38:32,222
Speaker 2: to confess. So once he started confessing, he confessed to

635
00:38:32,382 --> 00:38:37,102
Speaker 2: not only five murders in Detroit, but he also made

636
00:38:37,182 --> 00:38:41,302
Speaker 2: confessions very very freely to other murders while he was

637
00:38:41,342 --> 00:38:44,742
Speaker 2: serving in the Navy in the nineteen nineties, as crazy

638
00:38:44,742 --> 00:38:45,422
Speaker 2: as that was.

639
00:38:46,382 --> 00:38:47,862
Speaker 1: How many did he confess to.

640
00:38:48,462 --> 00:38:54,182
Speaker 2: The Navy murders? I think were ten additional murders, and

641
00:38:54,382 --> 00:38:57,662
Speaker 2: he confessed to the five in Detroit, like I said,

642
00:38:58,342 --> 00:39:03,702
Speaker 2: but he really did not confess to his survivors. Strangely enough,

643
00:39:04,302 --> 00:39:07,502
Speaker 2: one of those five survivors was never known until recently

644
00:39:07,582 --> 00:39:10,142
Speaker 2: for one thing. So there were only four survivors known

645
00:39:10,182 --> 00:39:12,142
Speaker 2: at the time of the case. And I don't think

646
00:39:12,182 --> 00:39:14,382
Speaker 2: he made any of those confessions. He only confessed to

647
00:39:14,422 --> 00:39:17,542
Speaker 2: the murders. So that really begs the question of how

648
00:39:17,582 --> 00:39:20,222
Speaker 2: many people did he really attack in Detroit. It could

649
00:39:20,222 --> 00:39:22,982
Speaker 2: have been more. But yeah, as far as the Navy ones,

650
00:39:23,102 --> 00:39:27,662
Speaker 2: I believe there were ten additional that he claimed to

651
00:39:27,702 --> 00:39:31,222
Speaker 2: have killed. They haven't all been corroborated. In fact, only

652
00:39:31,302 --> 00:39:35,062
Speaker 2: one has really been paired with an actual murder, and

653
00:39:35,102 --> 00:39:38,702
Speaker 2: that was the Virginia confession. But the rest are big

654
00:39:38,782 --> 00:39:40,142
Speaker 2: question marks we don't know.

655
00:39:40,862 --> 00:39:46,262
Speaker 1: Interestingly, he was actually quite remorseful of the mood as

656
00:39:46,302 --> 00:39:46,822
Speaker 1: he commuted.

657
00:39:47,822 --> 00:39:52,102
Speaker 2: He was he was crying, he was making extra notes

658
00:39:52,182 --> 00:39:56,622
Speaker 2: as he was signing the confession sheets. The officers would

659
00:39:56,622 --> 00:40:01,342
Speaker 2: read him his rights brand new with every single confession,

660
00:40:01,742 --> 00:40:06,342
Speaker 2: And so when you're figuring like fifteen or so confessions

661
00:40:06,702 --> 00:40:10,182
Speaker 2: and fifteen times reading his rights. Then at the end

662
00:40:10,462 --> 00:40:13,222
Speaker 2: they would have him sign every page. They have him

663
00:40:13,262 --> 00:40:17,142
Speaker 2: acknowledge every single page of the confession that they had

664
00:40:17,302 --> 00:40:19,822
Speaker 2: jotted down from what he was saying, because it was

665
00:40:19,862 --> 00:40:22,662
Speaker 2: not recorded, it was handwritten from what he was saying.

666
00:40:23,142 --> 00:40:25,622
Speaker 2: And so he signed each and every page, and then

667
00:40:25,662 --> 00:40:27,702
Speaker 2: at the end sometimes he would write a little note,

668
00:40:27,742 --> 00:40:30,862
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I hope that the family can forgive me,

669
00:40:31,022 --> 00:40:33,982
Speaker 2: or something to that effect. And there's different schools of

670
00:40:34,022 --> 00:40:37,222
Speaker 2: thought on this. My collaborator Jerry, would tell you that

671
00:40:37,382 --> 00:40:40,222
Speaker 2: was all an act. It was all manipulation. He's trying

672
00:40:40,262 --> 00:40:43,542
Speaker 2: to get sympathy. He knows that these statements are going

673
00:40:43,582 --> 00:40:45,942
Speaker 2: to be read in court later, and he wants that

674
00:40:45,982 --> 00:40:49,542
Speaker 2: little I'm sorry, the remorse part to be read. I

675
00:40:49,582 --> 00:40:54,422
Speaker 2: don't know, it's difficult to say to me. In my research,

676
00:40:54,462 --> 00:40:59,422
Speaker 2: he seemed very very penitent when he was making these confessions.

677
00:40:59,462 --> 00:41:03,622
Speaker 2: He seemed very very sorrowful. But of course then by

678
00:41:03,662 --> 00:41:06,622
Speaker 2: the time it came to trial a year later, he

679
00:41:06,862 --> 00:41:13,822
Speaker 2: was recanting everything he was claiming in so I guess

680
00:41:13,942 --> 00:41:16,582
Speaker 2: you got to decide for yourself if he was actually

681
00:41:16,662 --> 00:41:19,062
Speaker 2: sorry or not. It's a good question.

682
00:41:19,622 --> 00:41:21,902
Speaker 1: He was charged with five motives. In the end, he

683
00:41:21,902 --> 00:41:23,342
Speaker 1: didn't played guilty to any of them.

684
00:41:23,782 --> 00:41:27,462
Speaker 2: Yes, he was being charged with five murders, and then

685
00:41:27,782 --> 00:41:31,742
Speaker 2: three out of the four survivors he was being charged

686
00:41:31,782 --> 00:41:34,142
Speaker 2: with their assaults too. There was one of the four

687
00:41:34,222 --> 00:41:38,102
Speaker 2: survivors who bowed out of the whole process because she

688
00:41:38,262 --> 00:41:40,302
Speaker 2: just this was the one who was trying to get

689
00:41:40,342 --> 00:41:43,142
Speaker 2: a ride home on the bus. She was just nervous

690
00:41:43,142 --> 00:41:45,022
Speaker 2: and just didn't want to go through the whole thing.

691
00:41:45,102 --> 00:41:49,302
Speaker 2: And so we had three survivors and five fatalities for

692
00:41:49,422 --> 00:41:52,742
Speaker 2: the charges that he was brought with. He was tried

693
00:41:52,862 --> 00:41:56,062
Speaker 2: for two of the murders, beginning with Wendy Jordan because

694
00:41:56,062 --> 00:41:59,262
Speaker 2: that was the strongest case, and then the Kelly Hood

695
00:41:59,302 --> 00:42:03,422
Speaker 2: trial followed that and it was two for two in convictions.

696
00:42:03,462 --> 00:42:06,822
Speaker 2: He was convicted both times with mandatory life sentences. So

697
00:42:06,942 --> 00:42:10,062
Speaker 2: at that point he just decided to plead out on

698
00:42:10,102 --> 00:42:11,262
Speaker 2: the rest to the charges.

699
00:42:12,062 --> 00:42:15,262
Speaker 1: But with those two trials you mentioned, firstly he tried

700
00:42:15,302 --> 00:42:18,702
Speaker 1: to use the insanity defense and then secondly for the

701
00:42:18,782 --> 00:42:22,502
Speaker 1: second trial, he tried to use the criminally insane defense.

702
00:42:23,582 --> 00:42:26,822
Speaker 1: So it's quite a change from someone who literally gave

703
00:42:26,862 --> 00:42:29,982
Speaker 1: the exact details of how he killed these women to

704
00:42:30,062 --> 00:42:32,702
Speaker 1: then claiming insanity and not guilty.

705
00:42:33,582 --> 00:42:37,742
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot that people probably don't realize. It's

706
00:42:37,822 --> 00:42:40,622
Speaker 2: kind of an uphill climb with the insanity defense. There's

707
00:42:40,662 --> 00:42:43,062
Speaker 2: a lot you have to show or have to prove

708
00:42:43,262 --> 00:42:47,142
Speaker 2: in the insanity defense. For him just went nowhere. It

709
00:42:47,222 --> 00:42:48,542
Speaker 2: was just not going to happen.

710
00:42:49,662 --> 00:42:51,102
Speaker 1: Too much evidence.

711
00:42:50,942 --> 00:42:54,902
Speaker 2: For a variety of reasons. And then also he switched

712
00:42:54,982 --> 00:42:58,182
Speaker 2: lawyers between the first trial and the second trial. He

713
00:42:58,262 --> 00:43:00,822
Speaker 2: hired a new lawyer for the second trial, but his

714
00:43:01,022 --> 00:43:05,422
Speaker 2: lawyer for the first trial at first seemed to be

715
00:43:05,582 --> 00:43:10,902
Speaker 2: taking the approach that, okay, so you found DNA in

716
00:43:10,982 --> 00:43:15,742
Speaker 2: the victim Wendy, you found Armstrong's DNA. So yeah, okay,

717
00:43:16,022 --> 00:43:20,382
Speaker 2: he did encounter Wendy, they had a transaction, but she

718
00:43:20,542 --> 00:43:23,222
Speaker 2: was perfectly fine. He didn't kill her, she was fine

719
00:43:23,782 --> 00:43:26,982
Speaker 2: when he left her. He was taking that approach, and

720
00:43:27,022 --> 00:43:30,142
Speaker 2: the jury thankfully did not buy that either.

721
00:43:31,902 --> 00:43:35,102
Speaker 1: Well, the jury in both of those trials returned a

722
00:43:35,142 --> 00:43:37,542
Speaker 1: guilty verdict within a few hours.

723
00:43:37,902 --> 00:43:38,662
Speaker 2: It was pretty short.

724
00:43:38,742 --> 00:43:42,742
Speaker 1: Yes, so what was this plea deal that he agreed to.

725
00:43:43,462 --> 00:43:48,382
Speaker 2: Well, he was convicted of multiple life sentences beyond the two.

726
00:43:49,422 --> 00:43:52,862
Speaker 2: And you know, of course, when you're serving life in

727
00:43:52,902 --> 00:43:57,262
Speaker 2: prison here in Michigan, USA, it's basically all the same.

728
00:43:57,342 --> 00:44:01,702
Speaker 2: You're serving all sentences at once. But he was convicted

729
00:44:02,102 --> 00:44:06,822
Speaker 2: of the others beyond the two mandatory life sentences for

730
00:44:06,902 --> 00:44:11,382
Speaker 2: Wendy Jordan and Kelly Hood. And I couldn't tell you

731
00:44:11,502 --> 00:44:15,182
Speaker 2: exactly like the but if you look at his prison

732
00:44:15,222 --> 00:44:17,902
Speaker 2: record online, it will show you. It will outline for

733
00:44:17,942 --> 00:44:20,462
Speaker 2: you all the sentences. But I know he was convicted

734
00:44:20,462 --> 00:44:24,702
Speaker 2: of more beyond the two. Really, not much was thrown out.

735
00:44:24,742 --> 00:44:28,862
Speaker 2: I think one survivor. Maybe there was a charge that

736
00:44:29,022 --> 00:44:32,182
Speaker 2: was thrown out, but basically he got sentences for everything.

737
00:44:32,662 --> 00:44:36,062
Speaker 2: There's just no chance. There's one survivor. Natasha, the first

738
00:44:36,102 --> 00:44:38,582
Speaker 2: one he was known to have attacked in Michigan, and

739
00:44:38,622 --> 00:44:41,702
Speaker 2: that was in August nineteen ninety nine. Natasha, I've gotten

740
00:44:41,742 --> 00:44:45,462
Speaker 2: to know her really well, and she's still oh gosh,

741
00:44:45,542 --> 00:44:49,022
Speaker 2: she's so traumatized. She has a pretty high degree of

742
00:44:49,102 --> 00:44:53,622
Speaker 2: PTSD that she deals with regularly. I think she does

743
00:44:53,822 --> 00:44:57,142
Speaker 2: honestly fear he'll get out someday and she has nightmares

744
00:44:57,142 --> 00:45:00,462
Speaker 2: about it. She's very honest about having nightmares about him

745
00:45:00,902 --> 00:45:03,662
Speaker 2: getting out, and sometimes she'll even see someone at our

746
00:45:03,702 --> 00:45:08,582
Speaker 2: apartment complex with red hair that reminds her of him.

747
00:45:08,862 --> 00:45:11,782
Speaker 2: And she even called me after one of these times, like,

748
00:45:11,822 --> 00:45:15,542
Speaker 2: are you are you sure he can't get out? I mean,

749
00:45:15,662 --> 00:45:22,582
Speaker 2: it's honestly, it has been so traumatizing for her. But yeah, thankfully,

750
00:45:22,622 --> 00:45:26,862
Speaker 2: with so many multiple life sentences, I really don't think

751
00:45:26,902 --> 00:45:30,302
Speaker 2: there's anyway even though he is when you look at it,

752
00:45:30,382 --> 00:45:33,422
Speaker 2: he's a relatively young man. He just turned fifty I

753
00:45:33,502 --> 00:45:36,702
Speaker 2: think last year, so he's pretty young still, even though

754
00:45:36,702 --> 00:45:39,222
Speaker 2: he's been behind bars for more than twenty years.

755
00:45:40,222 --> 00:45:42,902
Speaker 1: Do we know how his family reacted to all of

756
00:45:42,942 --> 00:45:45,822
Speaker 1: these He had a wife and he ended up having

757
00:45:45,822 --> 00:45:47,862
Speaker 1: two children. One I believe he hasn't met.

758
00:45:48,302 --> 00:45:51,742
Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, he has not seen his wife and his

759
00:45:51,862 --> 00:45:57,102
Speaker 2: toddler's son since he was incarcerated. His wife was there

760
00:45:57,142 --> 00:45:59,782
Speaker 2: for his trial. His wife was supporting him. His wife

761
00:45:59,782 --> 00:46:02,702
Speaker 2: really did not want to believe this, and that's how

762
00:46:02,982 --> 00:46:07,182
Speaker 2: police described her as just shocked and this is not

763
00:46:07,262 --> 00:46:09,622
Speaker 2: my husband. You got the wrong guy. And I think

764
00:46:09,662 --> 00:46:12,462
Speaker 2: she honestly will it. But then by the time Armstrong

765
00:46:12,582 --> 00:46:15,902
Speaker 2: was convicted, she left the picture and he has not

766
00:46:16,102 --> 00:46:19,742
Speaker 2: seen her from what he told me, and like you said,

767
00:46:19,822 --> 00:46:22,622
Speaker 2: he has not met the child that his wife was

768
00:46:22,622 --> 00:46:27,662
Speaker 2: pregnant with when he was arrested. So yes, very sad.

769
00:46:28,062 --> 00:46:32,862
Speaker 2: And his family in North Carolina, his mom and his

770
00:46:33,022 --> 00:46:37,582
Speaker 2: stepdad have been very faithful in visiting him in prison.

771
00:46:37,742 --> 00:46:40,862
Speaker 2: They have stood by him. His other family members, I'm

772
00:46:40,862 --> 00:46:44,942
Speaker 2: not sure. He just actually lost a stepsister recently, but

773
00:46:45,822 --> 00:46:48,462
Speaker 2: I'm not sure where they where the rest of the

774
00:46:48,542 --> 00:46:49,622
Speaker 2: family members stand.

775
00:46:51,062 --> 00:46:53,422
Speaker 1: Have you spoken to him, Yes.

776
00:46:53,302 --> 00:46:55,302
Speaker 2: I visited him a couple of times. I've spoken to

777
00:46:55,462 --> 00:46:59,782
Speaker 2: her email for the past few years. And yeah, he

778
00:46:59,822 --> 00:47:02,662
Speaker 2: doesn't talk about the case. He will be friendly, he

779
00:47:03,422 --> 00:47:06,542
Speaker 2: will talk to you, you know, he does talk to

780
00:47:06,582 --> 00:47:10,582
Speaker 2: people from prison. It doesn't really get many visitors, but

781
00:47:12,062 --> 00:47:14,182
Speaker 2: does not wish to discuss the case.

782
00:47:14,982 --> 00:47:16,622
Speaker 1: How did you find him? What was he like?

783
00:47:17,502 --> 00:47:21,222
Speaker 2: Oh? Goodness, completely opposite of what you would expect. I

784
00:47:21,262 --> 00:47:26,382
Speaker 2: heard people describe him as the boy next door. And

785
00:47:26,702 --> 00:47:28,702
Speaker 2: the one gal who worked with him at the store.

786
00:47:28,742 --> 00:47:32,182
Speaker 2: She was sort of a motherly figure to him, and

787
00:47:32,822 --> 00:47:36,222
Speaker 2: she really liked him. She had either a son or

788
00:47:36,262 --> 00:47:39,382
Speaker 2: a nephew in the Navy, I believe as well, and

789
00:47:39,462 --> 00:47:42,142
Speaker 2: so they would talk about that. They would share stories.

790
00:47:42,182 --> 00:47:44,542
Speaker 2: But yeah, like I said, a motherly figure to him,

791
00:47:44,542 --> 00:47:47,302
Speaker 2: and she described him as the boy next door. The

792
00:47:47,382 --> 00:47:52,182
Speaker 2: prosecuting attorney, Betty Walker, actually was the other person who

793
00:47:52,222 --> 00:47:54,902
Speaker 2: described him as the boy next door. She said, Yeah,

794
00:47:54,942 --> 00:47:57,702
Speaker 2: I shopped at that store where he worked, and it

795
00:47:57,862 --> 00:48:00,262
Speaker 2: just sent chills down my spine when I learned that

796
00:48:00,342 --> 00:48:03,542
Speaker 2: he worked there. That was like my store that I

797
00:48:03,622 --> 00:48:07,782
Speaker 2: went to. But sitting there in court even she described

798
00:48:07,822 --> 00:48:12,542
Speaker 2: him as the boy next door, and those descriptions really

799
00:48:13,382 --> 00:48:17,182
Speaker 2: struck a chord with me when I met him myself.

800
00:48:17,742 --> 00:48:20,822
Speaker 2: For one thing, so many years later, his physical appearance

801
00:48:20,862 --> 00:48:23,382
Speaker 2: is a lot different from what it was when he

802
00:48:23,462 --> 00:48:25,822
Speaker 2: was arrested in his twenties. He was twenty six when

803
00:48:25,822 --> 00:48:28,742
Speaker 2: he was arrested, so he looks a lot different nowadays.

804
00:48:29,062 --> 00:48:33,182
Speaker 2: But he is just not what she would think, not

805
00:48:33,822 --> 00:48:37,422
Speaker 2: a serial killer at all. And that's why his arrest,

806
00:48:37,982 --> 00:48:42,182
Speaker 2: his identification as the serial killer was so shocking to

807
00:48:42,302 --> 00:48:46,022
Speaker 2: anyone who knew him here in Michigan, just so very

808
00:48:46,142 --> 00:48:51,342
Speaker 2: very shocking. And his demeanor and his appearance, he strikes

809
00:48:51,382 --> 00:48:55,142
Speaker 2: you as very genuine when he chats with you, he smiles,

810
00:48:55,182 --> 00:48:59,542
Speaker 2: he seems very kind in a genuine way, not a

811
00:48:59,582 --> 00:49:02,902
Speaker 2: put on way or a manipulative way, but in a

812
00:49:03,062 --> 00:49:11,382
Speaker 2: very genuine way. So it is seriously whacked that he

813
00:49:11,542 --> 00:49:14,822
Speaker 2: just seems so different from being a serial killer.

814
00:49:15,422 --> 00:49:18,462
Speaker 1: Did we ever find out why he did this, why

815
00:49:18,502 --> 00:49:21,782
Speaker 1: he picked six workers, why he noted and assaulted so

816
00:49:21,862 --> 00:49:22,462
Speaker 1: many people.

817
00:49:23,102 --> 00:49:28,422
Speaker 2: Three of the survivors said that as he was strangling them,

818
00:49:28,582 --> 00:49:32,222
Speaker 2: as he had his hands around their necks, he would

819
00:49:32,262 --> 00:49:35,462
Speaker 2: say something or he would like mutter or yell something

820
00:49:35,742 --> 00:49:39,702
Speaker 2: about hating prostitutes, I hate hookers, that sort of thing,

821
00:49:39,742 --> 00:49:45,182
Speaker 2: in a very angry way. And he himself said after

822
00:49:45,222 --> 00:49:48,142
Speaker 2: he was arrested, he told police, and this was picked

823
00:49:48,222 --> 00:49:50,262
Speaker 2: up by the media at the time as just sort

824
00:49:50,262 --> 00:49:53,742
Speaker 2: of a strange element of the case, and I don't

825
00:49:53,782 --> 00:49:56,662
Speaker 2: really personally lend much credence to it, but it was

826
00:49:56,742 --> 00:49:59,902
Speaker 2: reported in the media what he told police that when

827
00:49:59,942 --> 00:50:03,142
Speaker 2: he was in high school, he had a girlfriend and

828
00:50:03,182 --> 00:50:06,982
Speaker 2: that girlfriend left him for someone else because that someone

829
00:50:07,022 --> 00:50:10,902
Speaker 2: else bought her things and Eric did not buy her things,

830
00:50:11,022 --> 00:50:16,342
Speaker 2: and so he saw that he saw her as prostituting herself.

831
00:50:16,662 --> 00:50:21,062
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, what, that's kind of a loose association there,

832
00:50:21,662 --> 00:50:24,302
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, is that a reason that

833
00:50:24,382 --> 00:50:27,662
Speaker 2: you go on years later to kill prostitutes. I just

834
00:50:27,862 --> 00:50:31,702
Speaker 2: don't know if that makes sense. So that is a

835
00:50:31,742 --> 00:50:36,182
Speaker 2: mystery of why he so deeply hated prostitutes. It's really

836
00:50:36,222 --> 00:50:39,862
Speaker 2: a mystery. I mean, obviously, like we discussed before, he

837
00:50:39,982 --> 00:50:43,022
Speaker 2: was traumatized by his baby brother being killed at a

838
00:50:43,062 --> 00:50:47,382
Speaker 2: young age, and I don't know. It's you know, I

839
00:50:47,422 --> 00:50:51,302
Speaker 2: hope that people will form their own conclusion when they

840
00:50:51,542 --> 00:50:54,622
Speaker 2: read the story, because it is. It truly is a

841
00:50:54,662 --> 00:50:58,742
Speaker 2: million dollar question, and it intrigued and befuddled me as

842
00:50:58,822 --> 00:51:02,142
Speaker 2: I researched the case, and I still could not tell

843
00:51:02,182 --> 00:51:05,582
Speaker 2: you for sure, really, what is in back of all

844
00:51:05,622 --> 00:51:05,902
Speaker 2: of this?

845
00:51:06,142 --> 00:51:10,422
Speaker 1: Honestly, how many victims do you think there are out there?

846
00:51:10,422 --> 00:51:12,822
Speaker 1: I've seen some reports saying there could be as many

847
00:51:12,862 --> 00:51:14,862
Speaker 1: as twenty people did.

848
00:51:15,142 --> 00:51:19,342
Speaker 2: His Yeah, besides the five killed and five who survived

849
00:51:19,342 --> 00:51:22,742
Speaker 2: in Detroit, and then the ten in the Navy. I

850
00:51:23,022 --> 00:51:29,102
Speaker 2: really have to believe the Navy confessions because his level

851
00:51:29,142 --> 00:51:33,502
Speaker 2: of detail and how it flowed out of him, and

852
00:51:33,542 --> 00:51:36,742
Speaker 2: he would even try as he was making these confessions,

853
00:51:36,742 --> 00:51:41,102
Speaker 2: he would even try to like pause and make sure

854
00:51:41,182 --> 00:51:43,822
Speaker 2: that he was remembering correctly, and he would tell police, well,

855
00:51:43,822 --> 00:51:47,702
Speaker 2: sometimes I don't always remember them correctly. I may think

856
00:51:47,742 --> 00:51:53,022
Speaker 2: of something else later. He seemed pretty serious and honest

857
00:51:53,142 --> 00:51:56,182
Speaker 2: in the way that he was telling all of this

858
00:51:56,622 --> 00:51:59,542
Speaker 2: in the confessions, and just the idea. You know, he

859
00:51:59,582 --> 00:52:03,342
Speaker 2: didn't know any of their names, which is a sad

860
00:52:03,382 --> 00:52:07,582
Speaker 2: aspect of that, but he often could say what she

861
00:52:07,822 --> 00:52:12,622
Speaker 2: was wearing and her appearance. He could recall her hair color,

862
00:52:12,982 --> 00:52:16,902
Speaker 2: he could recall what race she was, He could recall

863
00:52:17,302 --> 00:52:19,982
Speaker 2: just other things like how tall, and things like that

864
00:52:20,102 --> 00:52:23,462
Speaker 2: about how old she seemed to her. He did confess

865
00:52:23,502 --> 00:52:27,542
Speaker 2: to one survivor, and I was able to pair that

866
00:52:27,662 --> 00:52:32,022
Speaker 2: confession that he made about Cynthia with Cynthia's own account

867
00:52:32,422 --> 00:52:36,502
Speaker 2: of the incident, and so comparing those two there were

868
00:52:36,582 --> 00:52:38,822
Speaker 2: a few things that matched and a few things that

869
00:52:38,902 --> 00:52:41,622
Speaker 2: didn't match. So we know from that that he wasn't

870
00:52:41,822 --> 00:52:46,302
Speaker 2: entirely accurate on all of his confessions. But I feel

871
00:52:46,342 --> 00:52:49,342
Speaker 2: like in what I read in the confessions, he actually

872
00:52:49,422 --> 00:52:53,502
Speaker 2: was trying to recall this information. So all of that

873
00:52:53,782 --> 00:52:58,902
Speaker 2: in consideration, I feel like those confessions to murders during

874
00:52:58,942 --> 00:53:02,262
Speaker 2: his years in the Navy, those really did happen. And

875
00:53:02,382 --> 00:53:06,502
Speaker 2: so if you figure ten, I mean that's attacking, assaulting

876
00:53:06,662 --> 00:53:10,422
Speaker 2: at least twenty people, but you just have to wonder

877
00:53:10,542 --> 00:53:12,542
Speaker 2: or when did all of this really begin?

878
00:53:13,062 --> 00:53:19,702
Speaker 1: And how many more bodies are out there exactly? Thanks

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00:53:19,742 --> 00:53:22,022
Speaker 1: to be Our Bates for helping us to tell this story.

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00:53:22,502 --> 00:53:25,782
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and

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00:53:25,822 --> 00:53:29,062
Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with audio

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00:53:29,102 --> 00:53:32,382
Speaker 1: design by Tom Lyon. Thanks so much for listening. I'll

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00:53:32,382 --> 00:53:35,022
Speaker 1: be back next week with another True Crime Conversation