1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Depending on the relationship with the host government. You might 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: be declared to them right as CIA or you might not. 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: You know, they would follow you around all the time 4 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: just to kind of check you out, and you don't. 5 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: But it's not weird, like I didn't mind it. 6 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Sees the YA Podcast. Busy and happy 7 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what 8 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but 9 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than 10 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 2: one way. So this is a platform to hear and 11 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives they adore, 12 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 2: the good, bad and ugly, the best and worst day 13 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 2: will bear all the facets of seizing your YA. I'm 14 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 2: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned 15 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: fuentrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found 16 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 2: matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar. CZA is a series 17 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 2: of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring 18 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 2: the self doubt, challenge, joy and. 19 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 3: Fulfillment along the way. Lovely Able. 20 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 2: It has been an absolute delight over the past two 21 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: weeks to see just how many of you share in 22 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 2: my passion for espionage or intelligence stories and to hear 23 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: that you so enjoyed our last episode with a real 24 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: life Australian spy. 25 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 3: I still can't believe that actually. 26 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: Happened, but one of the most common follow up questions 27 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 2: from that episode from you guys has been my top 28 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: recommendations for spy books, TV shows or podcasts, and funnily enough, 29 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 2: my own current favorite podcast was also the one that 30 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 2: our AZIO intelligence officer mentioned as her favorite. Since it's 31 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: launched late last year, I have not only binged every 32 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: single episode of the Rest is Classified podcast, but even 33 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: signed up to their paid Declassified club so that I 34 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: could get as early access as possible to each of 35 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 2: the series that they've released so far, covering everything from 36 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: the Bin Laden operation, Edward Snowden, the history of CIA 37 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: mind control, and even the contentious. 38 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 3: Topic of UFOs. 39 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: Hosted by former CIA analysts turned best selling espionage author 40 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: David Klosky and veteran British security correspondent Gordon Carrera, the 41 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: show unravels the world of intelligence and COVID operations, enhanced 42 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 2: by their intimate and expert perspectives on these events, along 43 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 2: with incredible guests, including the Likes of the former head 44 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: of the CIA and the former head of m I five. 45 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 2: I know, absolutely mind blowing. You can therefore imagine my 46 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: levels of excitement sending a casual DM to one David 47 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 2: McCloskey asking if he'd ever consider joining our own humble 48 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 2: show and getting an enthusiastic yes. Not only are we 49 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: sharing today some of his insights on the intelligence world 50 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 2: from inside the CIA, including through his experience across field 51 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: stations in the Middle East, but also on his life 52 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 2: after the agency. Yes, you can leave and live to 53 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: tell the tale, and tell the tale in such a 54 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: way that you become a Sunday Times best selling author 55 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: of three soon to be four incredible espionage books. So 56 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 2: both in the realms of nonfiction and fiction. I have 57 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: followed closely and thoroughly enjoyed David's work, and to have 58 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: him on the show is a real treat. I hope 59 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 2: you guys enjoyed this one as much as I did. 60 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 3: David McCloskey, Welcome to the show. 61 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 4: Hey, thanks for having me on. Really excited to be here. Sarah. 62 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so excited to have you. I have listened 63 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 2: to hours of your voice. Now since the rest is 64 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,119 Speaker 2: classified came out late last year, and it's actually quite 65 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 2: surreal to have you replying in real time. 66 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: Hopefully it sounds the same. We're using very little voice 67 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: modulation on the show, so hopefully. 68 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 3: This is thanks. Yes, this is your real voice. 69 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: This is accurate to your expectations. But it's really good 70 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: to be here, and thanks for inviting me on. 71 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 3: We are very grateful to have you. 72 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: As I mentioned before, I have a lifelong fascination with 73 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: the world of intelligence. So to have not only a 74 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 2: former CIA man, but a best selling espionage author sometimes 75 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: referred to as America's answer to John lecare. 76 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 4: Is, oh my god. 77 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 3: I highlights for the show today. 78 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: It's helpful for the marketing material, even if it's not true. 79 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 2: Well, that's far too humble, and of course we will 80 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: make our way through your incredible career. But I also 81 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 2: like to make all our guests feel really at home 82 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: right up front, so I thought i'd bring this out 83 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: for those of you who are not able. 84 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 3: To say the video at home. 85 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: I've just brought out my tinfoil hat that I've made 86 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: because I've had David is quite a big fan of 87 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 2: these devices, since he's work with UFOs. 88 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 4: This does make me feel at home, so thank you. 89 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 2: Oh it's the least I could do for you after 90 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: your alien abduction. Your podcast listeners will know about of course, 91 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 2: we'll have to talk about that today as well. 92 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 3: What a story we promised that story? 93 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: I think in the for like the club members, and 94 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: I don't think we ever followed through on it. It's 95 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: perhaps one of many unkept promises that will will exist 96 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: in the world of the rest is classified. 97 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: Well, I live in hope that one day you'll spill 98 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 2: the story. But I'll continue keenly listening because it's become 99 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 2: my favorite podcast listeners. If you like this episode, you'll 100 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: love the show. David and his co host Gordon cover 101 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 2: the most fascinating real life spy and intelligent stories with 102 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 2: such an entertaining dynamic. I love that you well just 103 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: a little bit rogue and Gordon is constantly trying to 104 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 2: rein you in talking about bin Laden's polygamy and all 105 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 2: his wives. Like we said, you're alien abduction. I feel 106 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: like it's kind of a like a micro version of 107 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 2: the Brits and the Americans generally, like as an Australian, 108 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: a third party kind of watching the TI you fight 109 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 2: it out I'm like, oh, this is this is a 110 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: nice dynamic. 111 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: Gordon does try to censor my sort of shambling Americanism 112 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: at times, and I never he never quite manages to 113 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: do it, I think. 114 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: Which, no, no, you refuse to be caged, which I enjoyed. 115 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, And I think Gordon maybe secretly 116 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: enjoys it. He's never told me that he does, and 117 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: sometimes he does look at me with deep sadness and 118 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: or regret, but deep down he likes it. 119 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 2: Well, it's an incredible show, and we'll get to how 120 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: you ended up hosting. But I think I also mentioned 121 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 2: we recently had an ASIO officer on the show, which 122 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: unearthed a whole espionage fan base within our listenership. But 123 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: what's exciting today for the listeners is we had to 124 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: obscure a lot of detail because she's still at ASIO, 125 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 2: Whereas because you are no longer with the CIA, you 126 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 2: have a little bit more leeway to share with us 127 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 2: what your life looked like, what your job involved, which 128 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: I can't wait to get into. But I'd love to 129 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: start all the way back at the beginning, back in 130 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 2: your childhood, because I think that detail gets skated over 131 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 2: a lot and for you know, the young aspiring intelligence 132 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 2: officer out there, it often seems impossible that they could 133 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 2: ever end up in a job as cool as working 134 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: at the CIA. So take us back to your childhood, 135 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: back to Minnesota, the son of a college professor. Was 136 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: intelligence ever on the cards? 137 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 3: And did you think. 138 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 2: That you'd end up as a CIA analyst? 139 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: I would say that CIA intelligence was never something I 140 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: thought I would do. It was one of those things 141 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: that just sort of happened, I mean really by accident. 142 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 4: I mean, as you. 143 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: Said, Greba, Minnesota, my dad's college professor. You know, I 144 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: read a lot of spy novels because he did, and 145 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: so I remembered that kind of being a feature of 146 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: you know, not every book on the shelf was a 147 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: spine novel. He wasn't like demolishing the whole genre, but 148 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: he was reading a lot. 149 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 3: Of it, so he wasn't me is what you're saying. 150 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. I just remember that kind of being something 151 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: that's like, oh, this is this is interesting. I like 152 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: reading about this stuff. I like reading about the world. 153 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: I would like to understand how the world works, and 154 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: I would like to travel in it. Right, And I 155 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: went to college with those two things in my head 156 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: as like goals. I went to college. I was an 157 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: international relations major, which basically meant I had no idea 158 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: what I wanted to do with my life. 159 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 4: I was just interested in the world. 160 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: And my mom was horrified because she thought I would 161 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: never get a job anywhere with a degree like that. 162 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: When I was a freshman. So first year in college, 163 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: the CIA came and recruited on campus, and they came 164 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: through because the guy who was running the Middle East 165 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: analytics shop at the time was an alum. He said, look, 166 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: you're two young to apply this year, you need to 167 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: wait a year, but we come back next year. 168 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 4: You can apply for. 169 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: An internship because the CIA does internships no way. Oh yeah, yeah, 170 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: and they do it even earlier now, because really you're 171 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: trying to recruit kids who are like eighteen and nineteen. 172 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: I mean for a bunch of reasons, but primarily my 173 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: understanding is because marijuana is still federally illegal in the 174 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: United States, and if you use, if you smoke pot 175 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: at any point in college, you're basically you can't get 176 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: a job at the agency. Right You'd have to wait 177 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: at least like five years, and that's going to rule 178 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: out a whole bunch of people by the time they're 179 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: twenty two or twenty three. So the agency tries to 180 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: get to people young so they can get them in 181 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: the pipeline so that they'll pass and get security clearances 182 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: and get into the agency. 183 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: Right, that is not what I thought you were going 184 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 2: to say. Just then, I did not know you were 185 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: going to say to get them before Wade hits them 186 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 2: before a week. 187 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's other like kind of simplifying it, 188 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: but there's you know, there's other reasons. But it's so 189 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: so I went back, and you know, the agency came 190 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: back when I was a sophomore, and honestly, at the time, 191 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: it was like, look, my work experience was that I 192 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: had dug holes for a sprinkler system company in the 193 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: Minneapolis St. Paul suburbs, and I had been a cashier 194 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: at Wendy's, the burger. 195 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 3: Chain, and so like paple skills, I didn't. 196 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: Exactly have like the sort of resume that I thought 197 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: the CIA would be interested in. And yet at the 198 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: same time, I was like, well, why don't I just 199 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: try and just see what happens, Right, I've got nothing 200 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: to lose by applying this seems like a cool job, 201 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,959 Speaker 1: and then you know, lo and behold, I got the 202 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: offer to join as an intern, and so I did 203 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:35,719 Speaker 1: that for two summers and then joined full time when 204 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: I graduated. So it was this very like accidental journey, 205 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,839 Speaker 1: which I imagine it's typical of a lot of a 206 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 1: lot of kids who are like, this seems kind of interesting, 207 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: let's see what it's like, and then you realize that 208 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, you got in. 209 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 4: You actually like it. 210 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like that seems to be the resounding 211 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: message from all the sort of spies or intelligence you know, 212 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 2: professionals that I've followed or met or read about that 213 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: you don't start out thinking that you're the stereotypical, you know, 214 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: perfect candidate, and then you realize there isn't really one. 215 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: You know, they're looking for such a wide range. In fact, 216 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 2: if anything, the less stereotypical you are, the less you 217 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 2: look like a typical spy, the more eligible you become, 218 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: because you know, you need a broad range of skills 219 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: and interests and people and backgrounds in some way like 220 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: the CIA. 221 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,359 Speaker 3: So that's fascinating that it was an accident. 222 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: Totally no, And I mean to the point on like 223 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: a bunch of different backgrounds and interest and experience. 224 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 4: You know. 225 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: I've been fortunate since I left to occasionally go back 226 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: into the agency to meet with people or whatnot. And 227 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: they actually have outside the museum at Langley, which is 228 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: not open to the public. Is the wrong word, because 229 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: you have to get into Langley to see the museum. 230 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: But the museum is not like behind any kind of 231 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, sort of vault door. They have a wall 232 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: that has a list of all of the different jobs 233 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: at the CIA on it, and there's like, you know, 234 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: like fifty jobs on there. So there's there's a lot 235 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: of different things that you can do at an organization 236 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: as big as the CEO. 237 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I want to go to the museums 238 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 2: so badly, and I have so many questions, like about 239 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: the actual building at Langley and what it looks like like. 240 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: I don't even know where to start. But perhaps since 241 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: we're speaking about the roles, let's get into yours first 242 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,599 Speaker 2: and then we can go back and sort of orientate 243 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 2: the CIA as an organization in the intelligence landscape generally, 244 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 2: so most of us have heard the title CIA analyst. 245 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 2: A lot of us may have heard of it through 246 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 2: Jack Ryan all the movies, but we've mostly heard of 247 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: what you used to do. But it's the actual day 248 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 2: to day that I love to focus on on this 249 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 2: show because we hear of sort of the macro titles 250 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: that people have or the jobs that you know is 251 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 2: someone's goal to become one day, But you know, I 252 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: think we often forget to translate that to what your 253 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 2: life actually looks like when you're doing it. So a 254 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: lot of the time, I assume you were based at Langley, 255 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: which is the CIA headquarters in Washington, DC, and then 256 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 2: you also spent time on some Middle Eastern st overseas. 257 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 2: So as much as you are permitted to share with us, 258 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 2: what did you do whole day? What did your life 259 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: look like at the CIA? 260 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, again, it'll be different for each of those roles, right, 261 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: So the case officer answer will be different from the 262 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: analyst answer. And I'll give you the analyst answer because 263 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 1: that's what I did. So there were periods of time 264 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: when I was there where I was working at foreign stations. 265 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: But give you the Langley answer because it's probably the 266 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: more typical one. So you know, you'd get in to 267 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: the office at somewhere between, like you know, seven thirty 268 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: and eight thirty. The organization is hierarchical in the sense 269 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: that information, particularly on the analytics side, is looked over 270 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: by all of the worker be analysts and then sort 271 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: of passed up the chain to determine what's important and 272 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: relevant that day to go into the President's Daily Brief 273 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: the book like the next day. So you have teams 274 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: who come in early look through this stuff. We would 275 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: always have a morning team meeting where everybody who let's 276 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: say is working on Syria will literally come out of 277 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: their high partition cubicles and literally brief what we called 278 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: the traffic right, it was the traffic meeting, the morning 279 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: traffic meetings, So it's like what's come in overnight, what 280 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: came in late yesterday, and there's a team chief at 281 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: those meetings taking notes and trying to figure out what 282 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 1: they are then going to brief up at the next 283 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: level of meetings. 284 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 4: Right. 285 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: And so you might occasionally have a day where something 286 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: has come in where you say, look, that actually is 287 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: really important, or it changes a line of analysis that 288 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: we've got, and if that's the case, someone will typically 289 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: get commissioned to write an article for the President's Daily 290 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: Brief or there's another publication called the Wire, the World 291 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: Intelligence Review, and that person who might consider themselves lucky 292 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: to get that opportunity, or depending on what they had 293 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: scheduled to go on later that day or at that evening, 294 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: might have just received a cent to stay in the 295 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: building until one or two in the morning while people 296 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,439 Speaker 1: ten levels higher than them edit down to the word 297 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: the things that they wrote earlier that day. And then 298 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: you have your team where you have some people who 299 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: might be writing really current stuff or other people who 300 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: have avoided kind of that you know, that shotgun and 301 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: get to write longer term things, or go do briefings 302 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: down at the NSC or Congress or to other parts 303 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: of the intelligence community, and you're kind of like writing 304 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: and briefing and processing that stuff all day. And so 305 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: I think overall, the way I like to describe the 306 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: analytics side is it's like it's like a clandestine version 307 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: of journalism. 308 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 4: Is really what you're doing. 309 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: I mean, the fact that's something that you are analyzing, 310 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: even though you described it as sort of like the 311 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: minions in your cubicles processing information, the fact that that 312 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: could end up in the president's daily briefing and then 313 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: have national and international consequences is so cool, but also 314 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: I can imagine like so scary as well. 315 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like all those things at once, right, I mean, 316 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: there's there's definitely moments where you're writing particular pieces where 317 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: you're thinking, like, oh, this will actually have a good 318 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: chance at shaping the way that the president or others 319 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: around them might think about this issue. Right, And the 320 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: start of the Syrian you know, uprising and then eventually 321 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: a civil war, like in particular, the first you know, 322 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: three to six months of it, I felt like, you know, 323 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: you do feel that responsibility because there aren't that many 324 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: of us working on this, and the stuff we're writing 325 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: is being read daily by the president and so that's 326 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: you know, both terrifying and also a tremendous honor. And 327 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: then you also have other days, like in any big organization, 328 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: where you're like, I am writing something and I'm spending 329 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: a lot of time on this, and. 330 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 4: Nobody's going to read it. 331 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: You know, it's just going to go out into the 332 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: ether and who knows what happens, And it makes your 333 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: feelings in any given day pretty complicated. 334 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 4: And there's a lot of people, you know, in an 335 00:15:58,760 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 4: organization like. 336 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: That who are like, I don't want to rate the 337 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: pdbs anymore because I want to go home at six 338 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: o'clock and you know, crack open a beer. So you've 339 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: got all kinds of people on your team at any 340 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: given point in time, and people who are really motivated 341 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: and excited about it, and then people who are retired 342 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: on active duty essentially and phoning it in. 343 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 344 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: I mean, even the fact that there are those different 345 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 2: dynamics is so unique and kind of unfathomable to the 346 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: average person because work life balance in a normal job 347 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 2: has such a different meaning I think, to the world 348 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: of intelligence or anything that involves global politics or the 349 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: new cycle or things where like time has such a 350 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: different meaning to you guys, because if you know, something 351 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: like nine to eleven happens, there is no clocking off, 352 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 2: there's no nine to five. You know, you just live 353 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: in such a different world to the average person. But 354 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 2: before we go a little bit further into your operations 355 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: and then your work in the Middle Eastern field stations, 356 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: I probably should have started with this question, But for 357 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: anyone who doesn't know the background of the CIA as 358 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 2: an organization, can you sort of explain where it sits 359 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: in the overalltelligence landscape. So in Australia we have ASIO 360 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: as our National Security Service or domestic Intelligence Service, which 361 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 2: would be the equivalent of the FBI for you guys, 362 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 2: or the FEBS as I think you called it. 363 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 4: And THEBES. I don't know if they like it, but 364 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 4: I like calling them that. 365 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: I'm sure they love it. Whereas the CIA is more 366 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 2: the foreign or external Intelligence Service, and our closest equivalent 367 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: is probably a ZI. So can you explain a bit 368 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 2: more about that distinction. But you also mentioned your role 369 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 2: as an analyst in contrast to the role as a 370 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 2: CIA case officer, So maybe just breaking down some of 371 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: those terms so our listener can understand where everything's it. 372 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: So I'll start inside the CIA. We talked about how 373 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: there's a lot of jobs. The two big ones in 374 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: the CIA are analysts, which is what I was. So 375 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: you're sort of you're looking at all sorts of intelligence. 376 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: It could be human intelligence, it could be signals intelligence, 377 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: you know, intercepted phone calls and emails and facts and 378 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff, imagery, satellite imagery, reporting from 379 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: our You're looking at all this stuff and you're writing 380 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: the kind of what why and so what on a 381 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: particular question, right, that's the role of the analyst. The 382 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: case officers are the ones who are trying to find 383 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: humans who are out in foreign capitals and you know, abroad, 384 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: who have access to secrets that we want, and the 385 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,479 Speaker 1: case officer attempts to recruit these people to give us 386 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: these secrets. So the case officer essentially facilitates the theft 387 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: of state secrets from other countries and they try to 388 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: recruit and handle human assets that provide those secrets. 389 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 4: Right. 390 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: But then inside the United States intelligence community, there are 391 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 1: like this is bewildering, right, there's like seventeen I think 392 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: intelligence agencies that are technically part of this intelligence community. 393 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: Most of them are not as large as the CIA. 394 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: But you have things like the NSA, which does all 395 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: of the signals intelligence. You have elements of the FBI, 396 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: so the FBI has like an intelligence agency side of it, 397 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: but its primary role is really domestic law enforcement. And 398 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: then you've got other, you know, other agencies like the 399 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: Defense Intelligence Agency, Like the Coastguard has their own intelligence agency. 400 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 4: Right, like the Navy. 401 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, examh absolutely, So you've got like this sort 402 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: of bewildering cluster of security organizations that, while they might 403 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: all have their own specialty, also do have real overlapping capabilities, 404 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: teams and mandates. It's all extremely interesting to me as 405 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: somebody who is in this world and writes about it 406 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: and fiction and then tells stories about it on the 407 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: rest is classified. But it's also like deeply redundant at times, right, 408 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: it's a massive bewildering. 409 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 3: We've got behaymoth of overlapping exactly. 410 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: And so that you know, the stories we tend to 411 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: tell on the on the pod and that I tend 412 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: to write about in the books are about you know, 413 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: the CIA, or they're about the FBI. They might have 414 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: a role for the you know, the NSA, the second Collectors, 415 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: but a lot of the smaller agencies just kind of 416 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 1: don't I don't know, they don't play at the at 417 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: the same level. 418 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're not up with the big dogs like you guys. 419 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 4: Well now, and by the way, everybody hates the CIA. 420 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: Too, right, because we're the CIA is seen as sort 421 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: of hopelessly arrogant and you know, a bunch of like 422 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: slightly over educated and weird people who are out collecting 423 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: useless information like that would be the that would be 424 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: the kind of critique that you would get like the FBI. 425 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: That's what the FBI would say, right the thebes they 426 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: would they would rag on us for that. 427 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: I feel like you guys do have big interagency rivalry 428 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 2: over there. 429 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 4: Absolutely. I mean we're doing so. 430 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: We're recording a series right now on the Hunt for 431 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 1: Pablo Escobar in and Yeah, which has been fun. I 432 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: mean I kind of knew this, but I didn't know 433 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: the depth of the hatred. 434 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 4: Like the DEA, the Drug. 435 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: Enforcement Administration, which has a sort of human collection capability 436 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: inside of it, it has agents and the CIA. I mean, 437 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: they hated each other during the hun hated each other. 438 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: The memoir from the DEA agents and I don't think 439 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: this is true, but they legitimately thought that the CIA 440 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: had tapped their phones at home, so listen to them, 441 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: like they included this in their memoir. 442 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 3: Well, I guess that's one thing that the TV shows 443 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 3: get right about all the agencies muscling in on people's 444 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 3: jurisdiction and all the agencies having a brawl about it. 445 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 3: But another thing. 446 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: That you see a lot about in the sort of 447 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: Hollywood depictions of the CIA is the farm and the 448 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 2: crazy training that goes on there with people training to 449 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: do dead drops and learn about brush passes and being 450 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 2: doing survival training. So how did you train for your role? 451 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 2: Do analysts have to go to the farm? 452 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 3: Did you actually go there? 453 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 4: I was an analyst. Yeah, you don't. You don't go 454 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 4: through it. 455 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 3: I mean, so you say, right, maybe. 456 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 4: Put my tinfoil hat on so I can speak truthfully. 457 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: I think the Hollywood concept of like the Jack Ryan 458 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: who's like, I'm an analyst, but then he's doing all 459 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: of the other crazy stuff. Right, it's like the CIA. 460 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: It's the stovepipes have gotten a little bit less rigid 461 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: in the past decade. 462 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 4: But analyst is a. 463 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: Different job than case officer, and so the training and 464 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: the continuous education stuff and all the experiences are like 465 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: they can be really and probably rightfully, So are are 466 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: totally different from one another? Yeah? 467 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: I was going to say, so you are basically a 468 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: real life Jack Ryan, but you just clarified. 469 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, Jack right and I share the same job title. 470 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: But other than that, it's it's different experiences. As I 471 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: learned about, you know, two days into the CIM, like, oh, 472 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: this is not like a Tom Clancy, you know Jack 473 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: Ryan stuff. 474 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 4: This is a little bit more contained, let's say. 475 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it still sounds like I mean, I definitely 476 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: want to pick your brains about the Hollywood representations that 477 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 2: you do think are more accurate. But before that, you 478 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 2: mentioned like your expectations going in and then what you 479 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 2: ended up doing. You did end up working around the world, 480 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 2: you know, during the sort of Arab spring, which was 481 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 2: right in the thick of when you were in Syria. 482 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 2: You were at the CIA during the abottabadmission to eliminate 483 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 2: Asama bin Laden, like it really crucial big moments in 484 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 2: history for the CIA. 485 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 3: And we've talked about our shared love of Zero Dark 486 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 3: thirty as a movie. 487 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 2: Can you tell us about what you know to the 488 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 2: extent that you can some of those things that you 489 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 2: were involved in that we would recognize for the news 490 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: and that were part of your career and what your 491 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 2: role was, Like, I know, you delivered some classified testimony 492 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: to Congress, So even if you weren't sort of cultivating assets, 493 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 2: you were working on these massive, cool international intelligence tasks. 494 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: I think that the bit of my career at the 495 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: agency that would probably most overlap with what intelligent observers 496 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: of the world would would recognize, would be that there 497 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: was a pretty small team working on Syria in twenty 498 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 1: eleven when the protest movement that we kind of now 499 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: know is the Awakening orb Spring began and that ultimately 500 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: set in motion, you know, a set of protests and 501 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: civil unrest and eventually a civil war that led fifteen 502 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: years later Tubasher and Alasad finally you know, being pushed 503 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: out of power, and for the first few years of 504 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: that you know, sort of crisis. I was one of 505 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: the analysts working on Syria, both from Langley and the region, 506 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: and so I think even though there's not like an 507 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: operation that I would point you to say like, oh, 508 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: I did this thing, it was a really deeply formative 509 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: period for me because it was like a pretty small 510 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: group of people that were kind of, I think, helping 511 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: to shape the way that the Obama administration dealt with Syria. 512 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: And obviously, you know, there's a lot of a lot 513 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: of ways that the administration dealt with Syria that I 514 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 1: think were big mistakes and there were a lot of 515 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: missed opportunities. Like that period of kind of helping to 516 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: shape the government's understanding of what was going going on there, 517 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,239 Speaker 1: you know, is something that I look back on with 518 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: a lot of pride. 519 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, So you were located, you know, when 520 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: you're at a field station. You moved to Syria, you're 521 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: working out of the embassy there. Talk us through like 522 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 2: the day to day when you're working offshore? 523 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 3: What is that? Like? How much of Damascus Station the 524 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 3: book is accurate? 525 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 4: Well, so, yeah, you know the novel. 526 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I really tried to render the station as 527 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: accurately as I possibly could. And it was easier because 528 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: by the time I was writing, the embassy had shut 529 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: down and the station wasn't there anymore. So I was 530 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: describing something that you know, had existed but didn't exist 531 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: at that time, which made it a lot easier to 532 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: get through the CIA's kind of sensors. What I really 533 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: wanted to do in the book was to take events 534 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: that had happened both when I was living in Damascus 535 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: and then when I was back at Langley in kind 536 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 1: of the first couple of years of that civil war, 537 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: and just build them into the novel and create a 538 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: plot line around the reality of the war in its 539 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: first you know, twenty four to thirty six months, and 540 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: so the list of stuff that happened is absolutely shocking. 541 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 1: I mean, there were sectarian massacres, the use of chemical 542 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: weapons on the battlefield, you know, the attempted assassination of 543 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 1: a bunch of OSAD senior security officials that did kill 544 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: his brother in law at like, you know, the equivalent 545 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: of serious CIA in Damascus. 546 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 4: Right. 547 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: So there's all these kind of crazy events that had 548 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: happened that had shaped the war, and that I had 549 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: been intimately involved in analyzing that. I wanted to basically 550 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: take change a little bit and then put them in 551 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: the novel. So they worked to kind of propel the 552 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: storyline forward. But to the question on you know, like 553 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: what it's like to work in the station, I mean, 554 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: the great thing about working in one of these field stations, 555 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: particularly a smaller one, is that you're dealing with a 556 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: lot less of the bureaucracy than you are back at Langley. 557 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: And you're working if you have a good chief of station, 558 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: you're working for somebody who's got a ton of authority 559 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: in leeway and can kind of, you know, use you 560 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: however here she wants. And I was lucky to work 561 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: for a lot of great Cos's overseas who were willing 562 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: to basically kind of let me do things that you know, 563 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have had the opportunity to do back at Langley. 564 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: So those were really great experiences, and I was very 565 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: fortunate to have been able to serve in Damascus prior 566 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: to everything kicking off. 567 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that I kind of imagine what an 568 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 2: experience that would have been, especially knowing like was that 569 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 2: the first time you had lived and worked overseas And 570 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: I think you know a lot of us have experience 571 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 2: as expats, but not necessarily at an embassy and in 572 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 2: this world where you are analyzing real time information when 573 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 2: such huge events are happening. For anyone who hasn't read 574 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 2: Damascus Station, we will get to your books. Can you 575 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 2: explain a little bit about the embassy setup? So you know, 576 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 2: all countries sort of have embassy set up in other countries, 577 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: but then there's you know, the politics and diplomacy, and 578 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 2: then the CIA obviously is inside that. So are you 579 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 2: sitting elsewhere? Are you allowed to tell people where you work? 580 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 3: Did you feel like you were a target walking around 581 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 3: the streets because people knew you were American? 582 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: Like? 583 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 3: How much of that stuff was real? 584 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 4: Yeah? 585 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: So you know the embassy there was in this beautiful 586 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: part of kind of just really in central Damascus, right 587 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: on this traffic circle. It was great because it was 588 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: integrated with the city, but it was very unlike a 589 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: lot of the embassies that the US has now all 590 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: around the Middle East in that it was like the 591 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: setback from the road was like two feet, right, So 592 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: from the standpoint of being protected from car bombs, it 593 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: was not so great, but it felt like it was 594 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: part of the city. You know, on the embassy kind 595 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: of compound, you do have these different sort of layers, right, 596 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: You've got the marine guards, You've got you know, Syrian 597 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: kind of foreign nationals who work in the embassy, right, 598 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: But then you do have pieces of the embassy in 599 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: the kind of chancery part where you've got the political 600 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: and economic sections of the State department, ambassador, you have 601 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: the deputy chief emission, and then you have in Damascus, 602 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: it was like below that you've got the station, right, 603 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: and you don't have This was the case in most 604 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: of the places that I served. I mean, you know, 605 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: if you're the CIA there, depending on the relationship with 606 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: the host government, you might be declared to them right 607 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: as CIA, or you might not, and you have some 608 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: form of diplomatic cover, so you're working, you know, in 609 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: the economics section, or you're working as a consular officer, 610 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: or you're working as a political officer, but you know, 611 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: your real job is to work in the station, and 612 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: those covers, depending again on where you are, can either 613 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: be basically wayfer thin and useless or it can you know, 614 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: you can really try to make sure that it holds 615 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: up to some degree so that those officers have, you know, 616 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: the sort of freedom to go around and meet people 617 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: and not be watched all the time. But in Syria, 618 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: where you know, as a prior to to the war 619 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: was you know, a fairly effective police state, you know, 620 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: they would follow you around all the time just to 621 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: kind of check you out, and you don't. You don't, 622 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: but it's not weird, like I'm an analyst there, Like 623 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: I'm not conducting an operational act. So to me it 624 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: was also I didn't mind it because I thought, you know, 625 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: if if there's if anyone tries to like mug me, 626 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: one of these guys is going to is going to 627 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,239 Speaker 1: stop it from happening. So I kind of felt like 628 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: you've got some extra muscle with you. 629 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 3: I'd think your own bodyguards exactly. 630 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 4: They just don't know it. 631 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,479 Speaker 2: I can't imagine that being followed and knowing that everything 632 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 2: is being watched because they don't know that you're just 633 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 2: an analyst, right, Like, wouldn't they always be assuming that 634 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: you were doing something else. 635 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: They're probably always checking you out, Yeah, to see and 636 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: figure out weird you Well, no, it was. It wasn't 637 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: weird because it was just like part of the deal. 638 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: And you know, again, I'm not like trying to hide anything, 639 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: and so you just kind of go to a place 640 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: like Syria with the understanding that you don't have any 641 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: privacy and that's just part of the deal. 642 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh my gosh, that's nuts. Did you ever feel 643 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 3: like your life was at risk? Like, were you ever 644 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 3: sort of at a station where there was, you know, 645 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 3: a security event happening. 646 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: No, you know, I did not do a tour in 647 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: Baghdad or in Kabble. I mean a lot of a 648 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: lot of my comrades would have would have gone. Those 649 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: stations were massive back in those days, right, and there 650 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: was I guess more of a possibility there was long 651 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: about there's more of a possibility there that something might happen. 652 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,479 Speaker 1: But I think it's one of the misconceptions about the 653 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: work is that it's like your life is regularly in danger, 654 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: you know, or anything like that. I just, especially as 655 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: an analyst, I mean, I just I never felt I 656 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: mean I felt very, very, very safe. The only time 657 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,479 Speaker 1: I ever thought like, ooh, this is you know, maybe 658 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: a place I shouldn't be is I actually had when 659 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: I was in Syria. I heard a driver to take 660 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: me down to this city in the south called dra 661 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: that has this wonderful Roman amphitheater. This is actually the 662 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: city that, you know, like two months after I visited, 663 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: it was going to be the first place that protests 664 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: erupted in Syria and kind of that to some degree 665 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: the cradle of the protest movement there. And I remember, 666 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: after visiting the ruins, the cap driver took me to 667 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: this place and we're just kind of having lunch and 668 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: talking and you're looking around and I'm kind of thinking, 669 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: like I stand out like crazy here and I'm not 670 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: particularly welcome. I never felt like, oh, my life is 671 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: in danger or anything like that, but it's just this 672 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: kind of feeling. 673 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 4: Of like we should leave. 674 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, but that was as bad as it got, right, 675 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: And you can have that kind of feeling in a 676 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: lot of different places in the. 677 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 4: United States too, or it's like you shouldn't be here. Yeah, 678 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 4: that's what it felt like. 679 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 2: What about some of those hair on the back of 680 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: your neck crescendos, like when you were part of the 681 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 2: announcement that the CIA got bin Laden in that compound, Like, 682 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 2: what are some of those moments in your career where 683 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 2: you were just like, wow. 684 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was you know again, I'll just preface I 685 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: had absolutely nothing to do with the with the hunt 686 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: for a Samma bin Laden while I was at the agency, 687 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: but I remember hearing about it as I drove into 688 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: work that day, and then then Director Panetta did a big, 689 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: like you know, sort of all hands briefing that morning 690 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: for the entire workforce. He said a lot more than 691 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: he was supposed to say because he was so excited, 692 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: and I still remember it. He was using all kinds 693 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: of profanity and he was overjoyed with what had happened. 694 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: It was like Christmas morning for Leon Panetical. It was 695 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: like one of the best days of his life. And 696 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: I think, you know what I felt in that moment, 697 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: and what it felt like at the agency was like 698 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: even if you hadn't been on the team hunting in right, 699 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: you just have this sense that like, I'm proud to 700 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: be part of an organization that has accomplished this, and 701 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: it's really really cool to be able to hear from 702 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: the director exactly what happened and then get to sort 703 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: of like compare that to what gets leaked out to 704 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: the press, right, And that high is a fun one 705 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: inside the agency, and it is one that I still 706 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: miss because the other I guess event from my time 707 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: there that would maybe resonate with listeners is when the 708 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: United States just about bombed Syria after the outside regime 709 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: used chemical weapons in twenty fourteen. That moment of like 710 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: being inside and seeing just how close we got to 711 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: doing that and then comparing it to kind of what's 712 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: going on the outside. Like in that case, it was 713 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 1: actually really really, really frustrating, because I think a lot 714 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 1: of us felt, like you said, there was a line 715 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: and we kind of need to punish the regime for 716 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: doing this, and then we did end. But that was 717 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: one of those moments where you're kind of seeing what 718 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: you're working on at your desk playing out in real 719 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: time in the news and in the world, and that 720 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: feeling it's hard to replicate that anywhere else. 721 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't even imagine. I'm so excited just listening 722 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 2: to these. So in terms of that, like divide between 723 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: what it actually is like versus the depiction in popular culture. 724 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 2: I feel like there's obviously a high level of secrecy, 725 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 2: but there seems to be a lot more declassified around 726 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 2: the CIA than there was, for example, without as officer, 727 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 2: because yeah, I don't know, maybe because we don't have 728 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 2: Hollywood here, and also our sort of history instruction is 729 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 2: a bit different. But you know, we all know about SDRs, 730 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 2: we know about brush passes and dead drops, Like how 731 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 2: much of that is real? And are there movies that 732 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 2: you think or from what you've seen from the inside 733 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 2: that you're allowed to say You're like, yes, that is 734 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,479 Speaker 2: very accurate. And then on the flip side, how many 735 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 2: myths do you see that You're just like that, I 736 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 2: need to bust that, Like that is frustrating because that 737 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 2: is nothing like the intelligence world in real life. 738 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: So answer the first question is that, yes, I mean 739 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: all that tradecraft and the stuff that I'm trying to 740 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: bring into the novels, like that that exists, right and 741 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: is real. Now there might be pieces of it that 742 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: I'm not elaborating on, and in particularly when you get 743 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: to the tech side and how communication happens between case 744 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: officers or the CIA and assets like that, stuff gets 745 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: starts to get super sensitive. Right on the Hollywood side, 746 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: like the vast majority of the entertainment, it can be very, 747 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: very entertaining, and I do tend to consume most of it, 748 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: but almost all of it is completely inauthentic, right, and 749 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: so if your lens is like to enjoy this, it 750 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: needs to be authentic. I don't have a lot of 751 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: great representations of the work to like put in front 752 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: of you and say go and read this or go 753 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: and watch this. 754 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 4: Right, there are. 755 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: Elements, I think of different spy franchises that do get 756 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: bits of it right. So the Americans, I don't know 757 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: if you're familiar with that show about you know, Russian 758 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 1: Legals and the States, like, they get the a lot 759 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: of the street tradecraft is pretty good. They get the 760 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 1: disguises rights like things like little things like that. But 761 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of crazy pieces in that show, 762 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: and the operational tempos insane, and you know, it's unrealistic 763 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: right In total, the biggest thing For me though, in 764 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: terms of the representation that I think is wrong is 765 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: you do have a tendency in Hollywood to create superhero 766 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: spies who are you know, well armed, very much above 767 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: average looking and operating in the United States, you know, 768 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: and maybe bipolar, like in Homeland with Kerry Matheson. Right, So, 769 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: like that representation is totally wrong for the actual work 770 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: of intelligence, Like it's actually just not what the job is. 771 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's kind of a negative answer. There's 772 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: there are other there are other like you know, spy 773 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: films and things like that that do get pieces of it, right, 774 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 1: Like one that sticks out to me is there's a 775 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: it's actually a Netflix series called The Spy that has 776 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: Sasha Baron Cohen in it. 777 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 3: Oh, yes, I love that one. 778 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: Which is great, Yeah, which is great, And I think 779 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: that it's said in the sixties, but he's basically playing 780 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: in Israeli knock an officer under non official cover in Syria, 781 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: and that does a great job with like the psychology 782 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 1: of a deep cover officer. 783 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 4: Right. 784 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: But I think what I'd probably say is like, if 785 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: you want some accuracy, like definitely don't watch Hollywood films 786 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: about the business because it's just not gonna it's just 787 00:37:58,160 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: not going to do it. 788 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 2: I mean, of course we know that Hollywood is taking 789 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 2: some creative license. But what I found really interesting was 790 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 2: you ask all your guests on The Rest is Classified 791 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 2: what their favorite espionage movie or TV show or book is, 792 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 2: and sometimes they do say that certain parts are rendered 793 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 2: really accurately according to the official reports. So for example, 794 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 2: zero Dark thirty, the mission sequence or the part of 795 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 2: the movie that reflects the raid on the Abodabad compound 796 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 2: where Osama bin Laden was goes for the exactly amount 797 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 2: of minutes as it actually went in real life, and 798 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 2: that all of the operational details are accurate. But then, 799 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 2: even taking away the Hollywood element, when I listen to 800 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 2: the Rest is Classified and all the stories you tell 801 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 2: their real stories, and they all sound that level of 802 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 2: dramatic and intense operationally like they sound Hollywood worthy, particularly 803 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 2: the episode you did on the most bonkers things that 804 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 2: the CIA has ever done, like MK Ultra and Operation 805 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 2: Atomic Kitty or whatever it was called. So tell us 806 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 2: about some of those operations. 807 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess if you stack up decades 808 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 1: of its history and sort of put stuff in the 809 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: crazy column, you can definitely get there. 810 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 4: Right. 811 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: So you mentioned mk ultra you know, sort of search 812 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: for a mind control capability that involved testing LSD and 813 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of other drugs on a bunch of 814 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: unwinning Americans, including prison inmates, right, like, and injecting an 815 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: elephant with LSD. 816 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 3: Right. 817 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 1: So there's all kinds of insane stuff, right. There have 818 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: been you know, a lot of there was a lot 819 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: of work back in the fifties and sixties on poisons, 820 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,720 Speaker 1: very exotic poisons. I think the CIA for a while 821 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: had the largest quantity of distilled shellfish tocsin in the 822 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: entire world. So that's that's another like very strange one. 823 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean, the Intersection will do a series at some 824 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:53,280 Speaker 1: point on the intersection of the CIA and magic because 825 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: the CI actually did a lot of work with magicians, 826 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: number of magicians back you know, back in like the 827 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: fifties and sixties on sort of how might you incorporate 828 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,720 Speaker 1: techniques from magic into tradecraft, right in particular, like slight 829 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 1: of hand movements for brush passes and things like that. 830 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 3: Oh, that's so cool. 831 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 1: One of those kind of things are bonkers, Yeah, And 832 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: it's really fascinating, right because there actually are applications and 833 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: use cases for magic in the world of intelligence. I mean, 834 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: you know, the disguised stuff I always find fascinating. I 835 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 1: think that is a really cool little kind of subgenre 836 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,800 Speaker 1: inside the world of the CI. I mean, the masks 837 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: got and the disguises got so good that the John A. Mendez, 838 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: who is the agency's chief of disguise for many years, 839 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,440 Speaker 1: and it's kind of you know, publicized some of this. 840 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: I actually went to a meeting a briefing for George H. W. 841 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: Bush On, I think the disguise program in disguise, and 842 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: it couldn't tell it was her, and she literally like 843 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: pulled the mask off like possible, like halfway through the briefing, 844 00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: and you know, they're like audible. 845 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 4: Gasps from the president and his chief staff. 846 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: So there's all these, you know, all these kinds of 847 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 1: like bonkers things, because you do end up even though 848 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: the agency we've talked about it is like, oh hey, 849 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: it's a big bureaucracy and you know, it's got its stuff, 850 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,919 Speaker 1: the things that's doing at some kind of pointier tip 851 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,919 Speaker 1: of the spear are kind of insane when you list 852 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: it off, like the agency is trying to convince people 853 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 1: to betray everything that they know and love and doing 854 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: it successfully every day. It's a weird mission when you 855 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: think about it that way. And as a result, it 856 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: leads and it's done in sort of the shadows, right, 857 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,280 Speaker 1: and so it leads to some like kind of crazy 858 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: stuff happening right and in particularly if you go back 859 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: into the like fifties and sixties, you just have a 860 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: whole raft of like nutty operations and ideas. I mean 861 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: the agencies, you know, like trying to overthrow leftist governments 862 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: left and right back in that period, right, and considering 863 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,720 Speaker 1: assassinating foreign leaders and why you're tapping domestic protest movements 864 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: in the un asked to see if they're a chock 865 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,919 Speaker 1: full of communists. So the agency got up to some 866 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: proper trouble back and back in the day. 867 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 3: What a rogue era. That sounds like I. 868 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: Think they might have been having more fun. Yeah, a 869 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: lot of it was illegal, but I think. 870 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 2: I mean, self administering LSD sounds like a wild thing 871 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 2: to have to do at work. 872 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 4: But I know, I know, it's just it's it's fun. 873 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 1: I mean literally spiking coffee pots with LSD at the agency. 874 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 3: What, Oh see, it's so funny. 875 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 2: It's like some of the things that the movies aren't real, 876 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,919 Speaker 2: and some of them aren't even close to how weird 877 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 2: it actually got exactly. 878 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 4: That's right, that's fun Some of the things. 879 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 2: The other things that ask spot on that I think 880 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,360 Speaker 2: you have mentioned in the podcast are like there is 881 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 2: a hot dog vending machine? What else is in the building? 882 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 2: Like there's a Starbucks? Is there a disguise room? Like 883 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 2: did you guys ever. 884 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:48,879 Speaker 3: Go into it? 885 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 2: And also did you ever do weapons training? Like does 886 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 2: everyone have to do that? 887 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 1: Not everyone has to do it? And I did not 888 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: do it when I was there, but you can do it. 889 00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: And there are like classes that you could sign up for, 890 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: even as an analyst. To one of my friends, and 891 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: I actually deeply, I deeply regret not signing up for this. 892 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 1: One of my friends, she's an analyst. She went out 893 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,200 Speaker 1: and did this like small arms training course and there's 894 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: a picture of her firing like a rocket propelled grenade, 895 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: like out in the middle of No Virginia. And I'm like, oh, man, 896 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: I should have gone and done that. 897 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 3: I can't believe you'd out. 898 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,319 Speaker 1: What was I thinking? Inside the agency? There's a lot 899 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,560 Speaker 1: of crazy stuff, right, So it mixes this weird. It's 900 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: again it's this coming back to this weird blend of 901 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: like you mentioned the Starbucks. So there's a there's a Starbucks, 902 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: there's a Dunkin Donuts. There used to be a Peruvian 903 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:37,240 Speaker 1: chicken Blaze. There's a frozen yogurt. There's a credit union, 904 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: there is a little convenience store, there's a gift shop. Right, 905 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,400 Speaker 1: so there's all this stuff where you're like, Okay, that 906 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,720 Speaker 1: seems just kind of totally normal for a big corporate 907 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 1: campus where you're in this you're not in a remote 908 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 1: area of Virginia. But it's also not easy to like 909 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,240 Speaker 1: leave during the day and come back. It's not quick 910 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: to do that, to like go out and have lunch. 911 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: So you got a big cafeteria, but then you've got 912 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: like you go downstairs to a room in the basement 913 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: that's sort of unmarked and open it up, and you know, 914 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,799 Speaker 1: you walk inside and there's a bunch of surveillance drone 915 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 1: feeds in there, right, that are monitoring a Middle Eastern 916 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: country's military sites. 917 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 4: Right, So you're like and it's like below the Starbucks. 918 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,799 Speaker 1: That's so this is all happening in the same in 919 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: the same place. It's a bit of a surreal enviola. 920 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: And you've got like, you know, a parking lot that's 921 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,720 Speaker 1: got like you you know, set up for intermoral basketball games. 922 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 1: But it's right sort of, you know, within spitting distance 923 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 1: of an A twelve ox cart, which is the precursor 924 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,879 Speaker 1: to the SR seventy one spy plane that's just set 925 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 1: up there in the parking lot. Right, So you've got 926 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: all this, like it's the mixture of those things. It's 927 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: like a bunch of normal stuff and then some stuff 928 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: where you're like, wow, that's we don't have that on 929 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,720 Speaker 1: at and T from a big organization in the States, 930 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: you know. 931 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:52,759 Speaker 3: Well you might have a Starbucks. 932 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,279 Speaker 2: But like I was reading about how like so many 933 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 2: people can't use their real names and so. 934 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,080 Speaker 3: Like how do you identify it? 935 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 2: Like when people are yelling out people's names for their coffee, 936 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:04,319 Speaker 2: It's like, how do you do that? 937 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:05,720 Speaker 3: In the CIA, they. 938 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: Don't They just yell have to drink what they don't? 939 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,719 Speaker 1: I mean, And you can't use a credit card on 940 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:10,959 Speaker 1: the campus, yeah. 941 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 3: Because it's your real name. 942 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 2: Yeah right, Oh my god? And what else is stuff 943 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 2: like that? Like see that's so normal to you guys, 944 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,319 Speaker 2: but to us. That's like, what do you mean? 945 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 1: And I guess I guess that I should caveat that 946 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,720 Speaker 1: was if you were if you were an overt employee, yeah, 947 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,920 Speaker 1: that's fine. But if you're like you're a case officer 948 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 1: who's undercover or something like that, or an analyst who's undercover, 949 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,800 Speaker 1: or no credit card, you're using cash, and yeah, the 950 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 1: Starbucks like, it's not like you'd give your name. You 951 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: would just they would call the order out, as opposed 952 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,280 Speaker 1: to you know, saying, oh, hey, this is Sarah. 953 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,360 Speaker 4: No, it would be like, oh my gosh, it's a 954 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 4: Grande American. There you go, you know. 955 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 1: And then and then if the two people have ordered it, 956 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:50,839 Speaker 1: you sort of have to like look at it and 957 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: talk to the person figure. 958 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 4: Out what's in it. 959 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,760 Speaker 1: So, oh, this is bizarre. The hot dog machine, incidentally, 960 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,240 Speaker 1: has been removed. 961 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 3: At rip Oh that's a real shame. 962 00:45:59,280 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 4: I know. 963 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: I was devastated. I actually went back in and looked 964 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: for it and it's gone. I can confirm firsthand knowledge 965 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 1: it's been ripped. It's been ripped out. 966 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,240 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, one thing you are a real life example 967 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 2: of is the fact that you can actually leave the 968 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 2: CIA and maintain a good relationship to be invited back 969 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 2: because I sort of was like, can you ever really leave? 970 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:18,760 Speaker 2: I mean it sounds like proof that you can because 971 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 2: you have gone on to do other things and got 972 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:25,400 Speaker 2: permission to actually publish books that are fiction but do 973 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,120 Speaker 2: have a lot of tradecraft and details about as you mentioned, 974 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 2: like stations. So you left the CIA, Wynja McKinsey did 975 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,839 Speaker 2: consulting from twenty fourteen to twenty twenty one, so. 976 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:37,880 Speaker 3: Quite a big chapter. 977 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 2: But then have made your way back into the world 978 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,560 Speaker 2: of espionage as a best selling author and now host 979 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,960 Speaker 2: of The Rest Is Classified with Gordon Carrera. Tell us 980 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:53,080 Speaker 2: about life post CIA, adjusting to that but also finding 981 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,759 Speaker 2: your way back, Like was that because you missed it? 982 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 4: Well, you know I did. 983 00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:59,880 Speaker 1: So the thing that I always did miss as a 984 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: consultant was I felt like, this is not a knock 985 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,200 Speaker 1: on the corporate world. 986 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:05,720 Speaker 4: It's just it wasn't. 987 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: It wasn't for me, Like I was never as interested 988 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 1: in the problems as I was in the problems I 989 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: was looking at at the agency, and so for me, 990 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:18,279 Speaker 1: like coming back to this world was again a bit 991 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: of an accident because I had started writing something when 992 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,400 Speaker 1: I left the CIA and then put it aside when 993 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,880 Speaker 1: I joined a consulting firm, but had really loved the writing, 994 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,480 Speaker 1: and so when I had the opportunity in twenty she 995 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,400 Speaker 1: was twenty nineteen to kind of take some time and 996 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,360 Speaker 1: to write full time for a little bit, just to 997 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:35,960 Speaker 1: see if I could finish it and get it done. 998 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,520 Speaker 1: Like I jumped at it. I think, you know, for me, 999 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 1: it was like, well, I will try to write. The 1000 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: process of writing that I had started when I left 1001 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: the agency was really about Syria. I said, Okay, I'm 1002 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 1: going to try to write a spy novel because that'll 1003 00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: be a good way to actually write a story set 1004 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: in Syria right and try to get Syria right and 1005 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: try to get the Cia right. And I just loved writing, 1006 00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:58,759 Speaker 1: and so I was like, all right, I'll see where 1007 00:47:58,800 --> 00:47:59,280 Speaker 1: this goes. 1008 00:47:59,400 --> 00:47:59,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1009 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,640 Speaker 1: It was of these things of like baby step into 1010 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,960 Speaker 1: that and then finish the book, get an agent for 1011 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,200 Speaker 1: the book, sell the book, book does well, and then like, well, 1012 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to write another book, well to be a 1013 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 1: spy novel. And so you're sort of I'm starting to 1014 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,120 Speaker 1: like dip back into this world, but very much kind 1015 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,880 Speaker 1: of by accident or happenstance. But I've found in kind 1016 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: of getting back into the writing that like, I'm really 1017 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,800 Speaker 1: interested in what's going on in the world of espionage. 1018 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in these kinds of stories, be they 1019 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 1: fiction that's sort of based on fact or you know, 1020 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 1: the kind of stories that Gordon and I do on 1021 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:31,799 Speaker 1: the pod. 1022 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:33,400 Speaker 4: I just like this stuff. 1023 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: This is the stuff that I like reading. I like 1024 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 1: thinking about this world. And so it's been this weird 1025 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 1: kind of journey back to have now shed most of 1026 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,319 Speaker 1: the work that I'm doing in the corporate world, any 1027 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,000 Speaker 1: kind of consulting, and just be doing the podcast in writing, 1028 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 1: and it's it's quite refreshing to be back. 1029 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:51,480 Speaker 3: I love this part so much. 1030 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,319 Speaker 2: Normally it's spend most of the episode on this, but 1031 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,360 Speaker 2: I could not resist. I mean, my own passion and 1032 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,560 Speaker 2: joy on the show we call it like yay my 1033 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 2: own ya is obviously this world of espionage and yeah, 1034 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 2: I just had to pick your brains about everything I 1035 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,920 Speaker 2: could within the CIA. But normally in an episode we 1036 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:12,520 Speaker 2: would spend more time on this. The fact that in 1037 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,719 Speaker 2: every pathway we're all trying to find I think we 1038 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 2: spend a lot of our lives trying to pursue success 1039 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 2: or meet society's expectations of what our life is supposed 1040 00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:23,759 Speaker 2: to look like, and you might find it in one 1041 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,480 Speaker 2: role and you know, be a CIA analyst. And then 1042 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,480 Speaker 2: that chapter comes to an end and sort of like, well, 1043 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,960 Speaker 2: what do I do next? And it's funny that I 1044 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,239 Speaker 2: think the dot's all connect, Like you've got your joy, 1045 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 2: You've got that one thing you're interested in, and it's 1046 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,160 Speaker 2: just manifested in slightly different ways throughout the different chapters, 1047 00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:40,920 Speaker 2: but you still found a way to keep it alive. 1048 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 2: And I love that, like going all the way back 1049 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,120 Speaker 2: to your childhood. I was reading that at UNI, you 1050 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 2: worked on a satirical publication called Off the Records, So 1051 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 2: you've always been a writer. I look at our life 1052 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,200 Speaker 2: or our ultimate joy as a jigsaw puzzle, and every 1053 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,160 Speaker 2: new experience you're adding new pieces or getting rid of 1054 00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,439 Speaker 2: old pieces and kind of trying to find new ones. 1055 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,440 Speaker 2: And perhaps Mackenzie didn't meete all the pieces that you needed, 1056 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,960 Speaker 2: but you've gone on to find new pieces that still allow. 1057 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,200 Speaker 3: You to do all the different things that you love. 1058 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 2: And I think that's that's like my favorite kind of 1059 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,919 Speaker 2: career path to show people is you can piece lots 1060 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 2: of different pieces together and never know. I mean, I'm 1061 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,600 Speaker 2: sure you never knew you'd end up as a best 1062 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 2: selling author with a podcast. 1063 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:23,560 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and yet here you are. Yes, No, it's I 1064 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,080 Speaker 1: would be the first to admit. My wife would also 1065 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,080 Speaker 1: emphasize this that like, I'm not really a futurist, Like 1066 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,120 Speaker 1: it's hard for me to sort of see that far 1067 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 1: into the future, right in particular as it comes to 1068 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,120 Speaker 1: sort of my life and career. But what I am 1069 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,440 Speaker 1: or at least try to be open to or intuitive about, 1070 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:45,240 Speaker 1: is like where's the next step or two? What doors 1071 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,439 Speaker 1: are open in front of me? Or what opportunities might 1072 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 1: I have? And it just kind of has you know, 1073 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: worked over time to like put these little things together 1074 00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:58,279 Speaker 1: and to like, Okay, I want to write a book, 1075 00:50:58,320 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 1: so like write the book, right, And then it's like, well, 1076 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 1: you write a second you have an opportunity to write 1077 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 1: a second book, right. You don't have the opportunity to 1078 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,000 Speaker 1: write the second book if you don't write the first book. 1079 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,320 Speaker 1: The opportunity to do the podcast came about because of 1080 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,160 Speaker 1: the books, right, So you can kind of like funnel 1081 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,200 Speaker 1: a lot of the different jigsaw pieces like kind of 1082 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:19,520 Speaker 1: funnel back to a decision that I made to really 1083 00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,720 Speaker 1: take this hunk of paper that I had been working 1084 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,640 Speaker 1: on back in twenty fourteen and really try to turn 1085 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,120 Speaker 1: it into something that I was passionate about. I don't know, 1086 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,399 Speaker 1: It's not like a sappy Jaseer Dreams kind of speel, but. 1087 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:33,440 Speaker 4: It was this feeling off. 1088 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,520 Speaker 1: This gives me energy and I need to keep doing 1089 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:41,439 Speaker 1: it right, Like this is fundamentally part of who I am, 1090 00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,319 Speaker 1: Like I need to write this, and so much has 1091 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,239 Speaker 1: sort of opened up from I think being open to 1092 00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,359 Speaker 1: that and not kind of because there very much would 1093 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,160 Speaker 1: have been a world where I could have just closed 1094 00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,279 Speaker 1: that down and turn that voice off and just kind 1095 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,120 Speaker 1: of kept on going as a consultant, and I wouldn't 1096 00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,520 Speaker 1: be enjoying my day to day and week to week 1097 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:01,960 Speaker 1: and month of mine as much as I am today 1098 00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,160 Speaker 1: if I had like kind of turned that voice down, 1099 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, six years ago. 1100 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,600 Speaker 2: So oh oh, that is such a powerful SoundBite for 1101 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,239 Speaker 2: what I What I always try and remind people on 1102 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,719 Speaker 2: this is that, like, it isn't always a sappy Chase 1103 00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,239 Speaker 2: your dream's kind of story because you often don't know 1104 00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,040 Speaker 2: what the dream is like. You didn't know that this 1105 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,160 Speaker 2: was your dream to become a best selling author. You 1106 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,360 Speaker 2: just were like chase the energy, like you said, like 1107 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,239 Speaker 2: follow the things that give you energy. And I always say, like, 1108 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,040 Speaker 2: you don't have to see the whole staircase to take 1109 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:30,960 Speaker 2: the first step. You just took a step and then 1110 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 2: that led to the next step, and you don't need 1111 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,080 Speaker 2: to know what that next step is. But you've just 1112 00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,840 Speaker 2: got to keep putting like one foot in front of 1113 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:38,560 Speaker 2: the other, closer to the thing that makes you feel 1114 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,320 Speaker 2: the most like you. And that gets like their sliding 1115 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,360 Speaker 2: doors moments sometimes in decisions in life give me goosebumps 1116 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,160 Speaker 2: to think of what you could have ended up not 1117 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,319 Speaker 2: doing if you hadn't followed that one thing that was 1118 00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:51,480 Speaker 2: like no, come back, come back. 1119 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:52,960 Speaker 4: Totally, no, exactly. 1120 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,000 Speaker 1: And it's it's a confusing thing to work out in 1121 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,279 Speaker 1: real time because you know, you can talk yourselves into 1122 00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:03,960 Speaker 1: all kinds of pathways that it's not like, you know, 1123 00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:05,920 Speaker 1: I would have been going down some journey into like, 1124 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, human misery. 1125 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,040 Speaker 4: Right like it it would have been. 1126 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,200 Speaker 1: It would have been probably would have been okay, but 1127 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 1: it would have been a lot less interesting and fun 1128 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,280 Speaker 1: and creative in many ways than what I'm doing now. 1129 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,319 Speaker 1: So yeah, that that kind of for the energy thing 1130 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,359 Speaker 1: resonates with me because it's also if I like take 1131 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,200 Speaker 1: a magnifying glass from life and career down to just 1132 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:30,000 Speaker 1: literally the writing process. Like it's also how the how 1133 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,960 Speaker 1: the books get written. It's trying to figure out like where, 1134 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,719 Speaker 1: what settings, what characters have energy, and how do I 1135 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,239 Speaker 1: sort of like lean into that and dive into that. 1136 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,759 Speaker 1: So I'm very that very much resonates with me. 1137 00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,040 Speaker 2: I mean, guys, this guy just decides to try and 1138 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,120 Speaker 2: write a book, not knowing that he's going to be 1139 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:52,120 Speaker 2: an author, and the former chief of the CIA calls 1140 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,640 Speaker 2: it the best spy novel that he's ever read. So 1141 00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:57,600 Speaker 2: you've gone on to not just like try your hand 1142 00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,400 Speaker 2: at writing, but become a multi best selling author. I 1143 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,719 Speaker 2: believe you have a fourth book coming out this year, 1144 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:04,840 Speaker 2: The Persian, Is that correct? 1145 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,480 Speaker 1: That's right on September thirtieth in the States, the Persian 1146 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,919 Speaker 1: will drop. It's a standalone So, I mean, my books 1147 00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,160 Speaker 1: are not really a series, but they all kind of 1148 00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:14,880 Speaker 1: exist as part of the same universe. This is the 1149 00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,400 Speaker 1: first time that don't have any overlapping characters with the 1150 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,800 Speaker 1: other books. It's in a story about the Israeli Iranian 1151 00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,439 Speaker 1: shadow war, which I hope is very timely given what's 1152 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,000 Speaker 1: going on in the news now, and it'll be out 1153 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,000 Speaker 1: here in the States on September thirtieth, and then in 1154 00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:33,359 Speaker 1: the UK and Commonwealth, I believe in January. We don't 1155 00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,719 Speaker 1: have a set date yet, but it's coming soon. 1156 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:36,520 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. 1157 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:38,360 Speaker 2: And then of course we have the rest is classified. 1158 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,399 Speaker 2: If you guys are interested in any of this, there 1159 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,680 Speaker 2: is so much to consume now. From November there's like 1160 00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:50,160 Speaker 2: twice weekly episodes since then, covering all kinds of incredible stories. 1161 00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,560 Speaker 2: And these are all like true stories that you and. 1162 00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:56,080 Speaker 3: You and Gordon cover. Do you have a favorite episode 1163 00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:57,479 Speaker 3: or series for. 1164 00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,839 Speaker 2: Anyone, like what would be the gateway drug into the show? 1165 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,200 Speaker 4: Oh, that's a good question. 1166 00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,320 Speaker 1: So I think I think the two series that I 1167 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,239 Speaker 1: would recommend to people that I think the storytelling is good. 1168 00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,359 Speaker 1: I think the subjects are fascinating, and I think kind 1169 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,719 Speaker 1: of the back and forth between me and Gordon is 1170 00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:12,400 Speaker 1: humming along. 1171 00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:13,800 Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's all good. 1172 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,480 Speaker 2: Of course, it's amazing, guys. I pay for a subscription, 1173 00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,880 Speaker 2: like I want the episodes in advance, so I'm a 1174 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:22,920 Speaker 2: secret squirrel in case anyone else wants to join. I 1175 00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,200 Speaker 2: don't have a discount code, but I highly recommend you join. 1176 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:26,239 Speaker 4: Thank you. 1177 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:27,160 Speaker 3: I appreciate that. 1178 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,360 Speaker 4: I also highly recommend that everybody joins. 1179 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:31,640 Speaker 1: The two series I would recommend would be the one 1180 00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,759 Speaker 1: we did on Edward Snowden, the series we did on 1181 00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,040 Speaker 1: Osama Bin Laden, and we try to do a really 1182 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,359 Speaker 1: kind of wide range of stuff, historical, more present day. 1183 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:42,400 Speaker 4: We do short series. 1184 00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,360 Speaker 1: It could be two episodes in some cases one or 1185 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:47,640 Speaker 1: it could be stuff that's up to six episodes. But 1186 00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,680 Speaker 1: those two, I think are that's the gateway drugs. So 1187 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,000 Speaker 1: if you want to see what we're all about, that's 1188 00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:56,000 Speaker 1: the interesting The Edward Snowden, that's the LSD which I 1189 00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,240 Speaker 1: got snowed in and check out Osama Bin Laden. 1190 00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,080 Speaker 2: Oh David, thank you so much for your time. I 1191 00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,040 Speaker 2: could listen to you and pick your brain forever. But 1192 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,359 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for you coming on the show. And 1193 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:07,399 Speaker 2: i can't wait for the next book. I mean, I've 1194 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,200 Speaker 2: got this on here, I've got all of them so far, 1195 00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,880 Speaker 2: I've been devouring them. So congratulations on everything. 1196 00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,440 Speaker 1: No, thank you, this has been wonderful, Sarah, thanks so 1197 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 1: much for having me. 1198 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:17,879 Speaker 2: Clearly I could have continued this chat for days, if 1199 00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 2: not weeks and months, but you'll just have to head 1200 00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,400 Speaker 2: on over to the rest is classified if you're after more. 1201 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,560 Speaker 3: If you enjoyed listening or. 1202 00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,360 Speaker 2: Had any big takeaways, please do take a moment to 1203 00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,440 Speaker 2: share those or share the episode tagging at McCloskey books 1204 00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:34,080 Speaker 2: to thank David for his time and to help him 1205 00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,040 Speaker 2: share his work as far and wide as possible. I'll 1206 00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,520 Speaker 2: also include links to his books. Both Nick and I 1207 00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,359 Speaker 2: have poured over all three of them and cannot wait 1208 00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,560 Speaker 2: for the next installment later this year. I promise that 1209 00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,400 Speaker 2: we will take a little break from the spy content 1210 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,440 Speaker 2: with our next guest for those of you who aren't 1211 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 2: as into espionage as I am, and I finally do 1212 00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,799 Speaker 2: have some more season Baby episodes coming your way. But 1213 00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,960 Speaker 2: my goodness, I have enjoyed this past few weeks. It 1214 00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,480 Speaker 2: has been such an indulgence of my personal placed. So 1215 00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:03,160 Speaker 2: thank you guys so much for listening and following along. 1216 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,919 Speaker 2: In the meantime, I hope you're having a wonderful week 1217 00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:25,760 Speaker 2: and seizing your ya