1 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: And I know from being around people in my life 5 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,159 Speaker 1: when I've been well who were in the position that 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: I was then it is hard to be around someone 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: with an eating disorder because they are so wrapped up 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: in their head they don't have time to consider your 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: feelings a lot of the time in my experience. 10 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome Tivdai. You're Happy, the podcast that asks 11 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: the questions you've always wanted to know from the people 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 2: who appear to have it all. I'm Claire Stevens and 13 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: today's guest is Lucinda Price, also known as Rooms. She's 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: an author and a comedian and a broadcaster and an 15 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 2: Internet personality, and you might know her from being Really 16 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: Bloody Funny on Instagram. She's performed at some of Australia's 17 00:01:12,399 --> 00:01:17,079 Speaker 2: largest live events and stages. She's written for TV, she's 18 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: got a cult following, and she's just released her debut book, 19 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: All I Ever Wanted Was to Be Hot, which is 20 00:01:25,479 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 2: essentially about the body image problem that every woman who 21 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,279 Speaker 2: has grown up in Australia in the last thirty years 22 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:39,359 Speaker 2: has been subjected to, and it's essentially about that soup 23 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: that we swim in when it comes to Western beauty 24 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 2: standards and the damage it does and for her the 25 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: journey of breaking out of it. Froom's is particularly fascinating 26 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: talking about the absurdity of the beauty standards that we 27 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: grew up with and how everyone wanted to be a 28 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 2: Victoria's Secret Angel. Everyone wanted to look the same way, 29 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 2: and if you were out of those boundaries, you felt 30 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: like there was something wrong with you and that you 31 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 2: needed to desperately change something about yourself. I was really 32 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: looking forward to having this conversation because before I started 33 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: in media, I was doing a Masters of research in psychology, 34 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: specifically looking at public health messaging around obesity and eating 35 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: disorders and how they entirely conflict. And it looked at 36 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: the overlap between obesity and eating disorders and the insidiousness 37 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: of fat phobia and the way it's damaging not only 38 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: for a person's mental health but also for the goal 39 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: of physical health. So many women have had their lives 40 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 2: and their joy stolen from them because of the noise 41 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: around eating, shape and weight, and it's a conversation I've 42 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 2: wanted to have on this podcast for so long, and 43 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: I knew that Frooms would be the person to have 44 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: that conversation with. I started by asking her about her childhood. 45 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: Oh, I love that you just get straight into it. 46 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: That's great, I would say, yeah, for sure. I was 47 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: actually thinking on the way here, my sister and I 48 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: are like everything to our parents, and there's nothing that 49 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: they wouldn't do for either of us, Like their life 50 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: revolves around us really, and not in like a coddled way, 51 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: but rather like I could sit in my hands and 52 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: clap and my mum would be like, oh my god, 53 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: that's iconic, so I could do it again. So I've 54 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: definitely been enabled. But yeah, I would say any kind 55 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: of like unhappiness that I felt was just purely in 56 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: my own head, because I feel as though I've really 57 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 1: had a pretty good trot in terms of things that 58 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: have been given to me and stuff like that. But 59 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: definitely from a young age, I think I had a 60 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: few demons in my brain. 61 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: You have talked a bit about experience depression. When was 62 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: your first experience with it? 63 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: So my first experience with it was probably, funnily enough, 64 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: what I feel kicked it off. In my memory was 65 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: when I went to a party when I was fifteen 66 00:04:25,719 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: and I greened out. Yeah, so we're passing it around 67 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: and I'll never forget. I don't know if this is 68 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: like if I'm allowed to talk about this, but I 69 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: was like fifteen, so that's fine. We were passing around. 70 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: They made this joint that was like a cross and 71 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: it was someone's parents. Weit it literally looked like that. Anyway. 72 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: I took a puff and like I really inhaled it 73 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: like twice, and then straight away I was like, I've 74 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: made a massive mistake. And it always happens, and you're 75 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: like in a circle of people. Yeah, And I looked 76 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: across me. I was looking at someone and behind them 77 00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: was this red cartoon going like this, like this, like this. 78 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: And then we went inside and we watched my favorite 79 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: ever movie, Austin Powers, and it was like I was 80 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: watching it and eternity dragged on, but it it'd only 81 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: been a second. Like I was wigging out. I went 82 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: to the bathroom and I vomited and I vomited up 83 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: blood and I was like I'm dying. But then my 84 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: friend was like, no, it's strawberries. Like I had strawberries 85 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: earlier that day. 86 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: I had that once when I got really drunk and 87 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: I was like vomiting blood and they're like, you've exclusively drank. 88 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: What do you use that? Like vodka? 89 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: Raspberry raspberry? 90 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? I was like, it's Vodara, but I'm still drunk. 91 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: I'm still drunk and it's probably bloody in my head. 92 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: So that actually really rocked me, and thus I don't 93 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: touch anything like that anymore because it rack. I remember 94 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: feeling so bad that I was like, I'm never going 95 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: to do this again. And I often talk about how 96 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: I get migraines as a kid, and I'd be like 97 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: praying to whatever imaginary god that I believed in, be 98 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: like please, I'll eat vegetables and fruit if you just 99 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 1: make it stop. Make it stop. So my whole thing 100 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: was like I never want to feel that again. I 101 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: think it tipped me over into like I don't know 102 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: if it's called derealization or depersonalization or whatever, but it's 103 00:05:58,080 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: like nothing felt real. It was like I was in 104 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: a glass box for a few months, and it was 105 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: that feeling of like I've done this, I can't rectify this, 106 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: Like I'm going to be stuck in this forever. But 107 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: before that point, I had bad anxiety and OCD since 108 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: I was really young, so I was used to kind 109 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: of feeling that real sinking feeling of like I'm stuck, 110 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm stuck, I'm stuck. But it just added like a 111 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: little bit of like flair to it, where I was 112 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: seeing a glass box now feeling it. 113 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 2: I have heard a lot of women talk about that 114 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: experience with weed. I don't enjoy it, and I don't 115 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: even know why I don't enjoy it, but it's probably 116 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: a similar thing. I just don't like how I feel, 117 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: And I'm a bit the same with like doing anything 118 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: that I'm then like, I don't want to not feel 119 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 2: in my body. You're writing your book about how your 120 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 2: dad has bipolar Were you conscious of trying things like 121 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 2: weed and thinking that it might be more risky for 122 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: you because of that predisposition. 123 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: Literally one hundred percent. And I've got friends who have 124 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: parents who have schizophrenia or bipolar one. So my dad 125 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: does bipolar one. And why I always put one on 126 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: the end is because there are two types of bipolar 127 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: one bipolar two. And I'm really passionate about I feel 128 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: like that word gets like thrown around so much like 129 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: they're bipolar. I'm like, it's such a complicated, interesting experience 130 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: people who have it. But that's kind of a side note. Yeah, definitely. 131 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: And I grew up like dad self medicated, like did 132 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff, and I just I didn't want 133 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: to have that. I knew like the reality of it. 134 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: So I think I don't think mental health was like 135 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: discussed in my family in the way that it is now. 136 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: It was just a kind of reality that my dad 137 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: has bipolar one and he's kind of crazy, and it's 138 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: we call him, and I've said this, we call him center, 139 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: like he's the center of our family. And it actually 140 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: has ended up being quite fun, Like I look back 141 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: quite fondly now, even at the things that necessarily weren't. 142 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: It's a serious mental illness, Like there's things that aren't 143 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: fun about it. But yeah, I don't know if it's 144 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: like nostalgia. Yeah yeah, but because that's like a relatively 145 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: serious mental illness, any kind of experience that I had 146 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: didn't feel as scary. Yeah, but it didn't also related 147 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. But I think later on 148 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: in life, when I was medicated and really kind of 149 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: like trying to work through it. Then I would kind 150 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: of draw parallels. 151 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: You had OCD when you were really really young. What 152 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 2: did you used to do? Like how did that manifest? 153 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: Oh? My god, so it started when I sing you 154 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: think kindergarten. I'm smiling even though it's like so shit, 155 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: And I just remember, like I couldn't wear socks, like 156 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: Mum would have to put on and off my socks 157 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:41,719 Speaker 1: again and again and again, and she just thought that 158 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: I didn't like the way they felt, and I thought 159 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: that that was the same. But I realized it would 160 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: be because I was like going into this new environment 161 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: and I didn't feel in control. But it really flared 162 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: up and became a serious problem when I was in 163 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: year seven. Again. Change it happens, and it still comes 164 00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: up to me whenever something's changing. 165 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 2: And it's weird. Often you can't tell in the moment, 166 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 2: you don't have the self awareness. In the moment, you're like, 167 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: but everything's fine and normal, that hasn't been anything, And 168 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: then you look back on it and you're like, yeah, year. 169 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: Seven, Yeah, Yeah, isn't that weird how it works like that? Yeah, 170 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: it's like that's the real hardest part of it. I 171 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: feel is this unawareness even if you feel like you're 172 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: a self aware person. But oh my god, it was 173 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: so bad in year seven. I just I felt like 174 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: I didn't fit in and I couldn't like find my 175 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: bearings at this new school. And so I would be 176 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: so hyper vigilant about everything that I did and every 177 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: way that I behaved, and I became obsessed with thinking 178 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: that I was offending people. So like i'd brush past 179 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: someone on the bus and like my bag would hit 180 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: their blazer, and for the whole day, like that'd be 181 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: in the morning, For the whole day, I'd be thinking 182 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: about it again and then ruminating, being like I did 183 00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: this thing. Oh my god, am I a bad person? 184 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: Then I'd catch the bus home and Mum tells me, now, 185 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: she's like, it'd be like you were busting to use 186 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: the toilet. You'd sit in the car and then have 187 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: to wait, wait till we get home. Walk into my 188 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: room with my mum. She'd sit on my bed, and 189 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: again and again and again, I'd have to say, I 190 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: brush past Sarah on the bus today, Does that mean 191 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: I'm rude? Mean or offensive? Does that mean I'm rude? 192 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: Mean or offensive? And I'd say again, and again, I'd 193 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: say it fifty times. And this is why I also 194 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: think it's so important to like championing the people that 195 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: are around people with mental illness, because like the patience 196 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: that my mum showed in sitting with me, she had 197 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: to say no in the perfect cadence. If I glinted 198 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: in her eye that maybe she didn't mean it, we'd 199 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: start the pattern again and this would go on for 200 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: like an hour, sometimes after school, and she didn't really 201 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: know what to do, like what do you do? So 202 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: I didn't get therapy or anything for it, because and 203 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: I speak about this in my book, it did eventually 204 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: go away, like it comes in episodes. It's not like 205 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: this constant thing like I feel fine right now, but 206 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: it kind of all went away when I died in 207 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: my hair blonde. And that's hence all ever wanted was 208 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 1: to be hot. Yeah. 209 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: You released your debut book in September, and I have 210 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: read it twice. It's a bit of a memoir, a 211 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 2: bit of a manifesto, and in one of the early 212 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: chapters you tell a story about something that you chose 213 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 2: to do, and that chapter ends with you seeing the 214 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: results of that and writing it was one of the 215 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 2: happiest moments of my life. That thing was a Nodes 216 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 2: job and you were seventeen. Can you tell me exactly 217 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 2: what that moment was like? And I've just realized you 218 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 2: like to call it rhinoplasty. We did not use the 219 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: casual lands plastic surgery rhinoplasty. Can you tell me exactly 220 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 2: what that moment was like? 221 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: Of course? And can I just say you reading my 222 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: book so early on and giving me the most amazing endorsement, 223 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: like made me feel so comfortable and excited about this 224 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: book because it's so scary when you write something like this. 225 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: It's so thank you, so oh, it's so brilliant. As 226 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: soon as I saw the title, I was like, oh, 227 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: I have all the time in love with I'd thank you. 228 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I can tell you exactly how it felt. 229 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: It was summer, and I'd wanted this thing since I 230 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: was eleven, and I thought about it so much, but 231 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: in kind of like a good way, Like I was 232 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: just so excited for when it was going to happen. 233 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 1: I think it could have turned out looking any sort 234 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: of way, and I would have been happy just for 235 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: having that agency to change it. It just felt like 236 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: it was akin to the feeling of like the life 237 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: day of school or getting my license. It was around 238 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: that time where all of those things were happening, so 239 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: it really kind of like divorced me from a girl 240 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: into a woman. Britney spears vibes and yeah, I just 241 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: remember thinking, Okay, now I'm comfortable. Now I feel like myself. 242 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: People speak about this, so I've spoken to There can 243 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: be like a dysphoria or a dysmorphia, I don't know, 244 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: like you don't feel yourself until you fix something. And 245 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: I think that's where plastic surgery can be really helpful. 246 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: And I think sometimes those stories aren't told enough because 247 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: you either hear the like really happy success stories or 248 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: the disasters where for a lot of people it kind 249 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: of is this like quiet, grounding, peaceful experience when you 250 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: fix something that you don't. 251 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 2: Like, even if it's like a messy path of why 252 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 2: you didn't like it in the first place. Would you 253 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: write in the book about certain comments that you got 254 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: or just certain moments where this insecurity kind of emerge 255 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 2: and you're able to at once see that like it's 256 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 2: sad and unfair that you felt that way, but the 257 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: truth is you did feel that way. And once you 258 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: saw the results, you were stoked. Yeah, and that's that's okay, 259 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 2: Like you genuinely felt happiness in that moment, and we 260 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 2: kind of shot on women a little bit for that. 261 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: Was it something that once you had it, because obviously, 262 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 2: like your friends would have known you had a partner 263 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 2: at the time, who knew? Did you feel comfortable telling people? 264 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: No? No, No, it was just like people in my 265 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: immediate circle. But even until writing this book, like, I 266 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: was so scared talking about it because it is an 267 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: insecurity of mine, the fact that my nose looks different, 268 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: Like I don't like sharing old photos of myself because 269 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: I don't like giving people permission to shit on this 270 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: little girl who felt self conscious. And yes, it's changed, 271 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: but I'm still that person. The part of my nose 272 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: is just in a bin somewhere. But no, it took 273 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: me so long to even consider talking about this with 274 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: people that I don't know, because yeah, like I said, 275 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: there's still that like insecure part of me. You know, 276 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: I'm so worried people and think, oh, she must be 277 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: so naturally fuggly, Like I don't like giving people permission 278 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: to like Bar's judgment, even though of course they are, 279 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: but surprisingly writing about it and putting it out there, 280 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: like no one seems very scandalized by it, and that's 281 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: quite powerful for me, you know, it's kind of freeing. 282 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: It's like, oh cool, I think one day I'll be 283 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: able to share photos of myself and it doesn't matter 284 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: what you think, because and it's true, Like I look 285 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: back at photos of myself now, and being honest about 286 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: it has also changed the way that I see my 287 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: old self. I see, oh, she wasn't even that bad, 288 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: Like I think it really was very much in my 289 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: head and that's why I'm glad I got it. But yeah, 290 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: definitely there's still a bit of feeling like I don't 291 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: want to give people ammunition to judge me. 292 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 2: It must be a little bit like exposure therapy, because 293 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: if it's something so scary and something that you were 294 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 2: certain was going to go a certain way once you 295 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: share this truth and it hasn't, that must be especially 296 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: for somebody who is predisposed to being anxious, that must 297 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 2: be quite comforting. You write candidly in the book about 298 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 2: wanting to be pretty unpopular, and you say you infiltrated 299 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: the popular group just by going blonder. As someone who 300 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 2: was never in the popular group. What does it feel 301 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: like to me in that group? 302 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: Oh my god. That was another thing that I was 303 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: really scared about writing about because it's like, I feel 304 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: like I got my wish, Yeah, and I'm like I 305 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: can see. I mean, I don't know, because I never 306 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: didn't have it like I did have it for like 307 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: a year and a half. I've felt so like a floater, 308 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: like I didn't have friends, and it really affected me. 309 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: So I think I don't know what it would have 310 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: been like if I just stayed like that forever. I 311 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: think I would kind of be a different person, to 312 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: be honest. Oh my god, it felt good. 313 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: Is it competitive? Like when everyone you talk about like 314 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 2: the cheerleader effect and the fact that like everyone's hot 315 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 2: and then everybody seems hot because you're all hot together. 316 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: What does that power feel like? And especially being able 317 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 2: to compare it with when you didn't have that social capital. 318 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's kind of not dissimilar to work now, 319 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: Like it's a popularity contest what we do in a 320 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: lot of ways. So it kind of probably primed me 321 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: for that. For me, I don't think it changed you 322 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: I was as a person, but I think it made 323 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: me a better person actually, because it meant that I 324 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: felt like I could. I've felt a lot of agency, 325 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: and I think I'm my best self when I feel 326 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: a bit more in control. And I felt accepted even 327 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: though it was this thing that, yeah, it is kind 328 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: of complicated because there's like haves and have nots, right, 329 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: but yeah, I definitely still knew that it was conditional, 330 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: so I definitely had to work towards it with the 331 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: blonde hair and looking a certain way and behaving a 332 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: certain way in front of boys. But I think I 333 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: was still myself in a lot of ways. It's like 334 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: survivors guilt because I'm like, I know what it was 335 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: like to really feel like I didn't fit in. 336 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: Do you feel like fitting in being hot, being blonde? 337 00:17:06,639 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 2: That having that safety net gave you per to be 338 00:17:12,919 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: who you were, like I think you say in the book, 339 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 2: like to be a weirdo, to be crazy, funny and 340 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 2: out there and follow whatever instincts you had. Do you 341 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 2: think because you had the safety net of hotness, but 342 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 2: you could do that. 343 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: One hundred percent? Because I remember when I didn't. When 344 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: I was in year seven and we had this like 345 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: drama class and I did this whole performance, and I 346 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: remember at the end of it, I like slid across 347 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: the floor in my tights and everyone was like whoa 348 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: because it was kind of like good, like it was 349 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: kind of like a really good move, and I was 350 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: like whoa. But again, I felt like a freak. Everyone 351 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: thought I was like this weird girl running around the school. 352 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: I think as well. When I'm anxious, I blink a lot, 353 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: so i'd kind of bounce around the school like blinking 354 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: and like kind of being really oh hey, like kind 355 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: of dorky because I hadn't really come into being a 356 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: proper teenager yet. And people used to say to me, 357 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: like I remember in drama class, one guy was like, 358 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: I thought you were hot, but then I got to 359 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: know you, so was that kind of vibe, which is. 360 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 2: Actually kind of and you're kind of like that's what 361 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 2: I want. Yeah, I feel like that kind of And 362 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: it's weird in that sometimes it's like, did you only 363 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 2: get to know me because I was hot? Like did 364 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 2: somebody only bother to get to know your funniness because 365 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 2: you'd lued them in fully? 366 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: Fully? Catfish? 367 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: Yeah? 368 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well yeah I didn't even take it. I 369 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: took it as a compliment because I'm like, I'm glad 370 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: that you are seeing me for who I am, which 371 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: is like this exactly how I present, I guess and 372 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: the things that I find funny. So yeah, definitely gave 373 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: me permission. And I feel like sometimes as young girls, 374 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: we need something to give us permission. And that's what 375 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 1: it was. For better or worse. 376 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 2: After the break, Froom shares her experience in what was 377 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 2: supposed to be a dream media role but instead left 378 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 2: her feeling increasingly dissatisfied with her appearance. A moment that 379 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 2: sticks out to me as a time the world told 380 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: you you'd be happy and you weren't, or when you 381 00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: thought you'd be happy and you weren't, was when you 382 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 2: got your job at Pedestrian. Can you tell me about 383 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 2: the role and what it involved. 384 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. So yeah, I got a job a 385 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: Pedestrian as a health and fitness editor when I was twenty. 386 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: Got an editor at twenty, I know, how what the hell? 387 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 1: That's why I was like, yes, like I'm killing it. 388 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: So I really was happy when I got that job. Yeah, 389 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: I was like obviously felt a lot of pressure because 390 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: I felt like, oh, I've really got to make this work. 391 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: Like I wanted to work there so bad, but it 392 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: was so out of the realm of possibility in my mind. Yeah, 393 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: it involved me like going on runs, trying smoothies, writing 394 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: about health and fitness, and at that point I'd never 395 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: gone on a diet. I thought diets were ridiculous. Again, 396 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: that was kind of a privilege, to be honest, because 397 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: I'd never been teased for my weight. Yeah, so I 398 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: kind of had the privilege of not knowing what it 399 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: was like to have to worry about that. So I 400 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: think in a way it helped my writing because I 401 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: came from a very layman's approach. But what I find 402 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: funny looking back is it eventually writing about health and 403 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: fitness every day all day really actually started to affect me. 404 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: And I think it's a really good tale of the 405 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:28,479 Speaker 1: fact that like, what you consume can consume you, and 406 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: what you consume even if you think that you're above her, 407 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: even if you think intellectually that you can outthink it. 408 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,719 Speaker 2: Or you're doing it ironically or whatever. 409 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: Yes, the ironically thing is a big one, especially if 410 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: you pride yourself on being someone who's self aware. I 411 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: think it can get you even more so. Yeah, the 412 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: role involved trying different things, changing my appearance for a story, 413 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: doing stuff like that, which again I was twenty. I 414 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: thought it was amazing. I was like, I get to 415 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: do all this stuff for free. Before that as well, 416 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: I'd worked at Lululemon, and part of that was going 417 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: and doing exercise classes for free. So I always was 418 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: enabled to do these things that I thought were really 419 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: positive for me, the context of that being actually a 420 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: bit strange when I look back. 421 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: What's fascinating about your story is this fact that the physical, 422 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 2: and especially when it comes to eating disorders, the physical 423 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 2: and the mental feed into each other. So a lot 424 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 2: of people, basically you don't really develop an eating disorder 425 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: unless you diet. That's how the psychopathology starts, because it's 426 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 2: your brain becoming so hungry that then like it stuffs 427 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 2: up all the signals and the whole relationship between your 428 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 2: brain and your body. And so you get this job 429 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 2: and you're doing diets or smoothies or thinking obsessively about 430 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 2: health just because that's what you have to do. You 431 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 2: tell a story about a friend coming to visit you 432 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: in Sydney and you felt weird after he left, and 433 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 2: then he said, I just don't know if we can 434 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: be friends, because that whole time was really weird. What 435 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: do you think you were behaving like? In that time? 436 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: I remember very clearly everything pissed me off. I found 437 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: everyone annoying, being around people for extended periods of time, 438 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: extended periods of time, being like one whole day in 439 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: one whole night, like you'd piss me off. I thought 440 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: I was better than people, to be honest, I thought 441 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: I was smarter. I thought everyone wishes they had my 442 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: will power. You know. I was really up my own ass. 443 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: But I think I had to be because I was 444 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: putting everything into it. So I felt entitled to feel 445 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: all of those things, because if I didn't feel all 446 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: those things, what was I doing it for. I think 447 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: the way it manifested in a social way was everything 448 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: having to be my way. I decide when we go out, 449 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: I decide what we eat, I decide when we go home. 450 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: I don't have time for small talk. Yeah. What I 451 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: remember from it was just being really stringent and having 452 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: absolutely no spontaneity. And I know how wild that is 453 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: now because I'm really spontaneous now. If you call me up, 454 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: I'll come do whatever with you or on the weekend, 455 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: or like I'm happy to just sit in bed all 456 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: day on the weekend if it means we're going to 457 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: have a fun time a friend and I together. And 458 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: I know from being around people in my life when 459 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 1: I've been well who were in the position that I was, 460 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: then it is hard to be around someone with a 461 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: neat disorder because they are so wrapped up in their 462 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: head they don't have time to consider your feelings a 463 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: lot of the time in my experience, but that was 464 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: a wake up call in a lot of ways. It 465 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: was embarrassing, Like I walked away from that conversation that 466 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: I had with him feeling so embarrassed because I didn't realize. 467 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: I hate the idea that I made someone feel uncomfortable. 468 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone would liked that idea, to be fair, 469 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: but it did make me feel really small and really 470 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: really bad. But it still took me a few more 471 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: years to think that the problem was that I was 472 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: hungry and not that I was depressed. 473 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: Was your initial reaction to that to blame that person 474 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: and think like, uh, you just don't get me. Maybe 475 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 2: we're not meant to be friends anymore, or did you 476 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: kind of see some of the truth in it at 477 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 2: the time. 478 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: I think, judging on the fact that I remember being embarrassed, 479 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: I think I definitely saw truth in it because we've 480 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: been friends since we were like fourteen, him and I. 481 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: His name's Ben. 482 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 2: Were you able to repair the friendship? 483 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, oh yeah, Like he was one of my 484 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: best friends in high school, like drama kids together, and 485 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: now like he came to my launcherit I did in 486 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: Melbourne and like wrote this beautiful thing for me, being like, 487 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: I'm so proud of the woman you've become. Like he's 488 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: really he's really like earnest and other stuff, which I like, 489 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: he is very in touch with his emotions. So yeah, 490 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: and that kind of makes a friendship like that stronger. 491 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: Like he's someone who would just say it how it is, 492 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 1: and I probably needed that in a lot of ways 493 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: from someone like him. 494 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 2: I think the way that you describe the reality of 495 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 2: having an eating disorder is so vivid. And I studied 496 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 2: psychology and about ten years ago I worked in a 497 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 2: residential treatment facility with people with eating disorders in the US. 498 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: I was only there for such a short time, but 499 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 2: it has stuck with me like nothing else because I 500 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: just could not believe how rigid and scary this mental 501 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 2: illness was. I remember we were doing like art therapy 502 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: and one girl woman. It's weird, I say, girl, but 503 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 2: like quite important, especially with eating disorders where it can 504 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 2: be quite paternalistic. 505 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: Woman. 506 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 2: She was a young woman, but she was just crying 507 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 2: and crying and saying, I don't know what I meant 508 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 2: to do because I feel so disgusting and I'm putting 509 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: on weight and I'm eating this food and I feel 510 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 2: so disgusting in my body. I can't recover because I 511 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 2: can't live like this. And I was like, oh my god, 512 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 2: what are you meant to do? What can you remember 513 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: that it felt like to be in the throes of that. 514 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: Yes, it feels like that. It feels like you've got 515 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: two options. I can, yeah, gain weight, which isn't an option, 516 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: but okay, we're going to say it's an option. Or 517 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: I can die, you know, which also isn't an option. 518 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: And that's why I think you can get really stuck 519 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: when you're at your lowest. I think there's different degrees 520 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: with the eating disorder as well. There was times where 521 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: I was definitely still clinically. I hit all the markers 522 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: for having an eating disorder, but it didn't feel as severe. 523 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: And then there were times where it was really like 524 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do and I'm stuck, like 525 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: you said that woman, really rigid and really stuck. 526 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 2: And I think sometimes it's actually during the recovery process 527 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 2: that you're like, oh, I can't live like this because 528 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 2: I don't know how to live in this body. And 529 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: that's when it all hits you. Because eating disorders have 530 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: the highest mortality rate out of any mental illness. And 531 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 2: I think that's why this book in your story is 532 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 2: so important, because it's telling that truth about how trapped 533 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 2: you feel and you Originally they kind of diagnosed it 534 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 2: as depression. And do you think that was because you 535 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 2: were just so low? 536 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think, to be honest, that misfire 537 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: from a psychiatrist was because of my family history of 538 00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: mental illness. It's convenient. She was a kind of doctor 539 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: that diagnosed me with a disorder. That was her whole 540 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: job was to look for signs of that. She didn't 541 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: know what I was like before, I said on the questionnaire. 542 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: When she was talking to me, I definitely said that 543 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: I was dieting, which should have set off red flags 544 00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: to be honest, but I think it's important, yeah, to 545 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: address the fact that eating disorders do have the highest 546 00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: mortality rate. And it's not because someone's dying of being 547 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: really skinny and they're mal nourished. It's because they're taking 548 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: their own lives, and it's not discussed enough. It is, 549 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: I feel because of that feeling of being stuck. I 550 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: know you've discussed experiencing mental illness, and it's that feeling 551 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: where it's I'm stuck. I've got two options, and if 552 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: you're someone who's really impulsive, then yeah, you got two options. 553 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: And I think it's important. It's so funny. I doled 554 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: out that statistic on my Instagram a couple months ago 555 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: and someone said, oh, yeah, I know they're pretty bad, 556 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: but I wouldn't say they're the most lethal. 557 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 2: As though it's like a subjective, I personally wouldn't say, 558 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 2: it's okay, do you like the data? 559 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: What the hell give me the tea? What's going on here? 560 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: And I think that was just indicative of the way 561 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: that we look and the way that we think. I 562 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: think we think that women are dramatic because yes, people assume, oh, 563 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: eating disorders are a thing for young women, and they're 564 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: being dramatic and they wouldn't do that. They wouldn't do that. 565 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: It's not about that, it's something they can snap out of. 566 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: People aren't talking about that with suppression. 567 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 2: And I think because it does disproportionately affect young women, 568 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: people do see it as almost narcissistic. I've actually seen 569 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: some interesting commentary online about kind of accusing people who 570 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 2: are talking about any disorder recovery or talking about their experiences, 571 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 2: accusing them of being fat phobic, and it's like, no, 572 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 2: that is the mental illness though, that's what's making that 573 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 2: person incredibly sick. Have you found that interesting the kind 574 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 2: of way that people engage with this story of you 575 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 2: having an eating disorder, that like, there can be a 576 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: bit of a misunderstanding. 577 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I wanted to explore the nuance in 578 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: the book, which was saying that, Yeah, when I developed 579 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: the eating disorder, I was prime for what you think 580 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: someone with an eating disorder is young, white, wealthy woman 581 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: given everything pretty much affectionists perfectionist decides to go on 582 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: a diet, doesn't like the way her body looks even 583 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: though she's a standard size. Oh no, she shouldn't eat 584 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: disorder Now, what I wanted to explain was that when 585 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: it's an eating disorder, and even when you diet, I 586 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: think dieting is weird and it shouldn't be normal. But yeah, 587 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: when you have an eating disorder, it tips over into 588 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: something that you can't control. So yeah, I was controlling 589 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: it at the start. Yeah, I decided to diet. Did 590 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: I decide to develop an eating disorder? Nah? But it happens, 591 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: and that's not discussed enough. I feel like we say 592 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: it's either you see the person who's really sick and 593 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: it's very obvious to everyone that this person has an 594 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: eating disorder, or you have these other gray areas, which 595 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: was what was really important for me to try and 596 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: get across in the book, because I think there's so 597 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: many people who don't fit the diet diagnostic criteria, who 598 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: fly under the radar, who will be sick for the 599 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: rest of their lives, will be stuck in diet culture, 600 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: and so much of the life and excitement and spontaneity 601 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: is stripped out of their life in a way that 602 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: they might not even be aware of. Because I think 603 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: that it's so important to show that you can go 604 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: back to having this like childlike wonder and sense of excitement. Yeah, 605 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: and that's something that I think is hard to tap 606 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: into when you're on a diet. 607 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's weird with eating disorders. I 608 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: think because thinness is so valorized in our culture, we 609 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 2: can almost look at people with eating disorders with contempt. 610 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 2: Like even I don't know if you had this, like 611 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: at school or when you're a young woman and there's 612 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 2: somebody in your orbit who has an eating disorder, you 613 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 2: almost gossip about it as though it's malicious, Like it's 614 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 2: the weirdest thing. If what I'm saying is through that 615 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: person is suffering and I don't see it as suffering. 616 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 2: When you have an eating disorder, do you feel that, 617 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 2: Like do you feel people looking at you in that 618 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: strange contemptuous way. 619 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I remember being on the side of the 620 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: person who's contemptuous, and I write about it in the book, 621 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: these girls who were clearly going through something, and they 622 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,719 Speaker 1: would be spoken about like, uh, like of course, like 623 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: everyone was kind of jealous. Yeah, in a lot of ways. 624 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 2: So fucked up. 625 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so fucked Then as an adult, Yeah, there 626 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: was definitely times where if someone not necessarily criticized me, 627 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: but called it out. I'd be like, Okay, you're jealous 628 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: because and a lot of the time people were dieting 629 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: and I was like, you're just jealous that I'm doing 630 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: it way better than you and I'm the boss of dieting. 631 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: But mostly honestly, I was just complimented all the time, 632 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: and like i'd go try on outfits, like the people 633 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: working at the stores would be like, oh wow, like 634 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: you could wear anything like that look so good on 635 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: you to me, And I see it now. I feel 636 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: like it was obvious that I had an eating disorder 637 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: when I was definitely a low weight. There's also I 638 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: don't know, this is like my gut telling me to 639 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:06,959 Speaker 1: say this. I'm not sure if it's true or not, 640 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: But like if I saw myself as someone who's gone 641 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: through it, it would be very clear to me very 642 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: quickly what I was going through the way that my 643 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:20,719 Speaker 1: body looked, my energy, my aora in a room. So 644 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: the idea that people were seeing that and kind of 645 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: not and thinking that it was normal or something to 646 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: be jealous of is crazy to me now. But I 647 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: think it's also normal to be jealous of something like 648 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: that will valorize as you say, skinniness. 649 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. When I worked in that residential treatment center. The 650 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 2: other thing I noticed, and you talk about this in 651 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 2: the book, is that these women who were dealing with 652 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 2: a variety of eating disorders, they had all the knowledge, 653 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: they had read all the research about their disorder how 654 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 2: to recover from it. Like they were like clinical psychologists 655 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: with what they knew, yet they weren't recovering. And I 656 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 2: think sometimes with mental illness, there's this difference between knowing 657 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,719 Speaker 2: something and actually feeling it. When did that emotional shift 658 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 2: come for you, because there has to be some other 659 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 2: You can know everything, but there's this moment of like, 660 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 2: oh this actually has to change that almost comes out 661 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 2: of your control. Yeah. 662 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: Oh. I love talking to you about these because I 663 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: just feel like you completely get it. You're so yeah. 664 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: I think that's what a lot of people. When you're 665 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: experiencing a mental illness, you go real deep into it. 666 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: Like it's a warning sign. When I'm going on Reddit 667 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: to research how someone's feeling about something, Yeah, that's when 668 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm deep in it, yeah, and I don't 669 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: even realize. Yeah. I think that's also why I enjoyed 670 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: writing the book, because I was so obsessed with eating 671 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: disorders when I had one that I kind of had 672 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: the knowledge based, so. 673 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 2: Like I've read all the studies about the experiments where 674 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 2: people were hungry, so they did all these behaviors that 675 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: people with even disorders then do, like you know, all 676 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 2: of that stuff. What I find interesting about your story 677 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 2: is that it was kind of a shitty thing that 678 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 2: happened to you that really opened the door for recovery, 679 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,919 Speaker 2: which was getting let go from pedestrian. Can you tell 680 00:34:18,959 --> 00:34:20,999 Speaker 2: me about that period of your life and how that 681 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 2: kind of evolved into starting a different phase. 682 00:34:24,959 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was so surprising when I got made redundant. 683 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,599 Speaker 1: I mean, if you work in the media or any 684 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,479 Speaker 1: kind of job like that, that happens quite a lot. 685 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: Doesn't really matter who you are or how good you 686 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,479 Speaker 1: are at your job. I'd worked for the company for 687 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,039 Speaker 1: four and a half years, and that's a pretty long 688 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: time in your twenties, I think, So just to be 689 00:34:41,399 --> 00:34:43,559 Speaker 1: let go over Zoom during COVID, I was like, oh 690 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,959 Speaker 1: my god, my life is a nightmare, Like how did 691 00:34:45,959 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: this happen? And it's easy for me to kind of 692 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,999 Speaker 1: laugh about myself back then now because it's worked out 693 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: well for me. But it gave me a moment to 694 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,519 Speaker 1: look out of myself and be like, this can be 695 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: taken away from me at any moment, this career can 696 00:34:58,799 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: be taken away from me at any moment. I'm tailoring 697 00:35:01,279 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: my whole life around this job, and now it's gone. 698 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: So where am I going to get that sense of self? 699 00:35:07,759 --> 00:35:09,439 Speaker 1: It was such a weird time. It was all kind 700 00:35:09,439 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: of serendipitous. This happened during COVID because all the gyms 701 00:35:12,439 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: were closed. You couldn't socialize, so everyone kind of contracted 702 00:35:18,439 --> 00:35:21,959 Speaker 1: kind of closer to my world in a lot of ways, 703 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 1: which again, yeah, I think it like opened up the 704 00:35:25,359 --> 00:35:27,559 Speaker 1: door for me to recreate myself. I think it could 705 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 1: have gone either way, Like it was sad getting a 706 00:35:29,399 --> 00:35:30,999 Speaker 1: major john, and I think I could have gone more 707 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,919 Speaker 1: deeper into restricting as a means for control. But I 708 00:35:34,919 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: think I was at that point where I was open 709 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: to the idea of relaxing my rules. It was giving 710 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: the end of the world vibes. 711 00:35:44,399 --> 00:35:47,879 Speaker 2: If the world's ending, I'm not going to be fucking hungry. 712 00:35:48,839 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: I got to enjoy this, yeah. 713 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And so once you relaxed those rules, 714 00:35:54,919 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: then what happened? 715 00:35:57,439 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: Yes, So I gained weight, and mentally I became more relaxed. 716 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,159 Speaker 1: To be honest, what happened was I went back into 717 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 1: binge eating, which is what I'd experienced prior to the 718 00:36:07,439 --> 00:36:11,919 Speaker 1: restrictive eating disorder that was really hunting and upsetting. The 719 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: mentality is similar to a binge itself, which is I thought, 720 00:36:15,279 --> 00:36:17,519 Speaker 1: all week I've been so good, or like all the 721 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: last two or three years, I've been so good, and 722 00:36:19,359 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: now it's the weekend and I'm sending it and I 723 00:36:21,799 --> 00:36:24,039 Speaker 1: could have just been eating normal the whole time. That's 724 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: how it felt. Felt like I'd wasted all this time. 725 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: So you've got a lot of competing things that are 726 00:36:29,359 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: upsetting and disturbing. What I read and even when it 727 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: was happening to me, I didn't want to believe it 728 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: is that weight gain is so important. Weight gain is 729 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,079 Speaker 1: the number one key. Eating is the number one key. 730 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: It wasn't until I got help from a specialist who 731 00:36:45,399 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: understood that that I could actually reap the benefits of 732 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: that eating, which is getting more fuel to your brain, 733 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: being able to make more rational decisions. But that's always 734 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 1: the hardest bit because you're facing your biggest fear and 735 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: when you are really sick and you and it manifestos 736 00:37:02,399 --> 00:37:05,119 Speaker 1: being depressed. You're like, well, I don't want to be 737 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: fat and depressed and now going to be fat undepressed 738 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,559 Speaker 1: rather than skinny and depressed. And because skinny being skinn 739 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,479 Speaker 1: is the number one thing in my life, I'd rather 740 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,839 Speaker 1: skinny and depressed. But what happens if you finally have 741 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: enough guardrails in your life that you can push yourself 742 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 1: a little bit and like take one step forward and 743 00:37:24,399 --> 00:37:26,639 Speaker 1: do the thing, gain the weight or eat a bit more, 744 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: then everything starts opening up. You take a step, SciOne 745 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:31,519 Speaker 1: said the other day, and it's a bit woo woo, 746 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: but like when you take one step forward, the universe 747 00:37:33,879 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: takes a step forward too. Yeah, that mental image really 748 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,199 Speaker 1: resonated with me because that's how it felt. I didn't 749 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: want to write a book that was from a place 750 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: of total recovery where I'm talking about loving yourself and 751 00:37:44,399 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: it's crazy to diet. That is kind of what I say, 752 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: but I wanted to keep enough detail in there for 753 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 1: people to know. No, I think I know how you feel. 754 00:37:52,279 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 1: I don't want to say that I do, because everyone's different, 755 00:37:54,799 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 1: but just know that I feel like I know what 756 00:37:58,319 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: you're going through right now, and I want to be 757 00:38:01,839 --> 00:38:04,159 Speaker 1: not an example necessarily, but I just want to show 758 00:38:04,479 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 1: a certain life that I've cultivated post eating disorder. It's 759 00:38:07,839 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: like it's in a whole different realm. It's not way better, 760 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: it's completely different life that I always wanted since I 761 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: was a little kid, and I've got it now. 762 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,959 Speaker 2: And you also say in the book that for a 763 00:38:17,959 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 2: lot of people, you hear that you can never fully 764 00:38:23,759 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 2: recover from an eating disorder. That you partially recover or 765 00:38:27,959 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 2: I think some research as it takes like seven years 766 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 2: to recover. And from the work I did, you would 767 00:38:32,479 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 2: see people come in and out and in and out 768 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 2: of residential treatment of impatient treatment, and that must be 769 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,519 Speaker 2: a kind of scary feeling when you're doing this really 770 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 2: hard thing and then thinking, well, I'm not even going 771 00:38:44,839 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 2: to fully recover from this, or I could do all 772 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 2: this work and then I'll be back here anyway. What 773 00:38:50,399 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 2: do you think were some of the really clarifying moments 774 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 2: for your recovery that allowed you to recover fully. 775 00:38:58,399 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're always going into it being not one hundred 776 00:39:02,439 --> 00:39:04,639 Speaker 1: percent sure how it's going to turn out. And again, 777 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: it's easy to look back now and see the really 778 00:39:06,759 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 1: specific moments where I was making really big leaps, but 779 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: at the time it's like you're in the dark trying 780 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,399 Speaker 1: to feel around. Yeah. I always found that narrative that 781 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,519 Speaker 1: full recovery is not possible really upsetting, and because I 782 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,439 Speaker 1: remember when I was especially when I was binge eating, 783 00:39:21,439 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: and I talk about this in the book. I found 784 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: out that my mom did the same thing at the 785 00:39:24,759 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: same age, which was super illuminating and crazy to me 786 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: because when I was binging. When I first started, I 787 00:39:30,759 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: thought I'd invented binging and purging. I was like, oh 788 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: my god, I found his cheek code. I didn't need 789 00:39:35,359 --> 00:39:37,079 Speaker 1: anyone to teach me how to do that. I did 790 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 1: it myself. Oh my god. My mum would say to me, 791 00:39:40,799 --> 00:39:42,919 Speaker 1: God bless her. She didn't mean this to kind of 792 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 1: keep me trapped, but I struggled with it. She was like, 793 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,479 Speaker 1: one day I just woke up and it stopped. It's 794 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: like if there was a switch that was flicked, and 795 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: that really I struggled with that because I never felt that. 796 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: Looking back, I can see moments where the switch was 797 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: actually flicked, but it's so important. I think you can 798 00:40:02,279 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: wait around and think, oh wait, no, I'm going to recover. 799 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: It's going to come to me. It's going to come 800 00:40:05,799 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: to me. When in actuality, it's continually taking steps and 801 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: steps and steps, and then the time you take the 802 00:40:10,759 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: biggest step, then you start going like this and it's fine. 803 00:40:13,759 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think the idea that it's never possible 804 00:40:16,759 --> 00:40:22,399 Speaker 1: to recover, I just think that keeps people from taking steps. Yeah. 805 00:40:23,479 --> 00:40:27,959 Speaker 2: What should you not say to somebody who's recovered from 806 00:40:27,959 --> 00:40:28,839 Speaker 2: an eating disorder? 807 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,959 Speaker 1: You look healthy? No more? Yeah, that's the classic that's 808 00:40:33,959 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 1: been around forever. You look healthy. Yeah, thanks for nicing. 809 00:40:37,959 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 1: Thank you for pulling me out of myself and reminding 810 00:40:40,319 --> 00:40:42,519 Speaker 1: me that I have a body that I'm trying to 811 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,959 Speaker 1: not prioritize so well meaning I still get it to 812 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,359 Speaker 1: this day. I still have family friends who stop me 813 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: after lunch and say, hey, you look really. 814 00:40:50,759 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 2: Good, and you're like, I, that's not the points the 815 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 2: point do you think you just don't comment on appearance? 816 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: I think you have to, and I think it's something 817 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: that is a muscle that you have to. I stop 818 00:41:04,399 --> 00:41:05,999 Speaker 1: myself all the time. I even said it to your 819 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: beautiful producer. I couldn't help myself. It's such nice hair, 820 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: and even then I was like, don't think I should 821 00:41:10,959 --> 00:41:13,199 Speaker 1: be saying this, So I said, haircut? Is that something 822 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: you can change? But you know, even that, I'd really 823 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: try not to. I've been around people in my life 824 00:41:18,279 --> 00:41:20,919 Speaker 1: who've shown me a different perspective and been like, say, 825 00:41:20,959 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 1: someone wears like really outrageous clothes or something that other 826 00:41:23,359 --> 00:41:26,519 Speaker 1: people deem outrageous. If you say whoa, If you're like 827 00:41:26,759 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't dress like that, and you say, WHOA, 828 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,879 Speaker 1: you look great, it doesn't feel sincere. There's so many 829 00:41:31,879 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: different You don't know where someone is in their life 830 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: and there how they feel about themselves to do it 831 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: in a way that's not dangerous. I feel I was 832 00:41:39,799 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: very sensitive when I had my eating disorder, and so 833 00:41:42,799 --> 00:41:44,999 Speaker 1: I just try not to do it. My rule is 834 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: you compliment things you can take on and off, and 835 00:41:47,359 --> 00:41:48,439 Speaker 1: only if you really mean it. 836 00:41:49,879 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 2: So even if there was somebody in your life who 837 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 2: you knew was trying to lose weight, and you knew 838 00:41:59,919 --> 00:42:02,079 Speaker 2: enough to think that maybe it was just for health 839 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 2: reasons and there was nothing sinister about it, would you 840 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 2: still not say anything. 841 00:42:07,279 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: Well, I think that if it's for health reasons, then 842 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,519 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be relevant that they look different. But also, 843 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,079 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's people who want to lose weight and 844 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: it isn't a full blown eating disorder, and they probably 845 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: want to hear that. But I just think that we 846 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,039 Speaker 1: can't divorce the piousness of being thin from anything else. 847 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 1: So it does feel like a character judgment when you say, oh, 848 00:42:27,879 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: you're losing weight. Yeah, because ninety seven percent of diets 849 00:42:31,759 --> 00:42:33,359 Speaker 1: don't work in the long run, So they're going to 850 00:42:33,359 --> 00:42:35,119 Speaker 1: gain it back and they're going to feel bad because 851 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: they're going to remember that if you're going to compliment 852 00:42:37,439 --> 00:42:40,119 Speaker 1: them on the way down when I'm on the way 853 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: back up, you must think I'm insert derogatory term. 854 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 2: More of my conversation with rooms after the break Right now, 855 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 2: you have a very loyal following and you share really 856 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,479 Speaker 2: really funny content. You've been doing that for a long 857 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 2: time in internet years. Sharing on the internet comes with feedback. 858 00:43:08,319 --> 00:43:10,999 Speaker 2: Now that you've been through that whole ex experience of 859 00:43:11,919 --> 00:43:16,439 Speaker 2: going through recovery for a mental illness and working on 860 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,399 Speaker 2: self esteem and self worth, do you get affected by 861 00:43:19,399 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 2: what people write about you on the internet? 862 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: Yeah? 863 00:43:22,359 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 2: What are the comments that actually hurt? 864 00:43:25,959 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? Totally know what you mean. For me. The thing 865 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,039 Speaker 1: that actually affects me, and this happened last night with 866 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: a guy. It's when men comment on my body. Yeah, 867 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,599 Speaker 1: and they're never really saying anything bad. Yeah, it's always 868 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,399 Speaker 1: about my figure, my big boobs, this or that. That 869 00:43:42,439 --> 00:43:44,879 Speaker 1: affected me, especially prior to the book coming out, because 870 00:43:44,919 --> 00:43:47,599 Speaker 1: I have breast implants and so when I had them out, 871 00:43:47,879 --> 00:43:50,999 Speaker 1: when I wore a top that wasn't a fucking Hessian bag, 872 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,559 Speaker 1: that would affect me because I'd feel like I'd ask 873 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,839 Speaker 1: for it and I felt like an idiot. I just 874 00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: made me feel so small, and it was annoying because 875 00:43:59,799 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: people would be like, oh, like it's just men, of 876 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:02,839 Speaker 1: course they're going to do that. But I was like, 877 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:05,599 Speaker 1: it makes me cry and I don't know why because 878 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,959 Speaker 1: it shouldn't. Like there's other stuff that people say that 879 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: should make me cry. But I think I'm pretty. I 880 00:44:10,759 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: have a lot of self esteem about my ability to work. 881 00:44:15,439 --> 00:44:17,999 Speaker 1: I like myself as a writer. I think I have 882 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 1: a good eye for things, so I can sit quite 883 00:44:19,799 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: comfortably in that. But when it comes to my body, 884 00:44:23,359 --> 00:44:25,839 Speaker 1: it really affects me. It's weird. And yeah, when men 885 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: make comments about my mummy, milkeruse, Oh. 886 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,159 Speaker 2: It's such the mummy milk is thing. 887 00:44:31,359 --> 00:44:35,119 Speaker 1: It is so intense, like horrible. It's comments like that 888 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:36,919 Speaker 1: that really affect me again because it makes me feel 889 00:44:36,919 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 1: like an idiot, and especially because I have breast implants. 890 00:44:39,759 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: It plays into this narrative that I have in my 891 00:44:41,799 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: head that I've asked for it, So that affects me. 892 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:47,919 Speaker 1: I just hate it because it pulls me out of 893 00:44:47,919 --> 00:44:50,119 Speaker 1: myself because I think to myself, Oh, I'm having fun 894 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,079 Speaker 1: on the internet. I've just got fun. People that get 895 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,239 Speaker 1: it are watching me, and then I remember, oh, no, 896 00:44:54,319 --> 00:44:57,599 Speaker 1: there's this whole silent audience of people who don't give 897 00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,319 Speaker 1: a fuck what I have to say. They don't think 898 00:44:59,319 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 1: I'm funny. They just see this woman on the internet 899 00:45:01,879 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 1: who has big boobs. Yeah. Yeah, So comments like that 900 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:05,759 Speaker 1: upset me because. 901 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that. There's a weird kind of like 902 00:45:09,399 --> 00:45:11,999 Speaker 2: I don't know what's shame is the word, but you 903 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:13,919 Speaker 2: feel like sexualized when it's like I have not been 904 00:45:13,919 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 2: complicit in this sexualization, Like no, and I think women 905 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 2: you do feel silly. Like I remember I was working 906 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 2: once in a bar and just wearing something I thought 907 00:45:25,799 --> 00:45:29,919 Speaker 2: was totally normal, and a guy just stared at my 908 00:45:29,959 --> 00:45:33,280 Speaker 2: boobs and made a really vulgar comment, and I felt 909 00:45:33,279 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 2: like sick. Oh, and I think it was the same thing. 910 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,799 Speaker 2: It's like, did I do this? Am I complicit because 911 00:45:38,799 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 2: I'm not wearing a turtleneck? I think maybe I asked 912 00:45:41,879 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 2: for it. 913 00:45:42,319 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the weirdest thing. It's so bad. Yeah, you 914 00:45:45,279 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: feel Yeah it's shame. 915 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:47,999 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if. 916 00:45:47,879 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 1: It's a shame or yeah, it's shame. Oh. And then 917 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:53,919 Speaker 1: I think about it. I'm like, wait, no, bitch, I'm 918 00:45:53,959 --> 00:45:55,959 Speaker 1: going to the beach. Yeah. And you wouldn't be making 919 00:45:55,959 --> 00:45:57,839 Speaker 1: this comment if I you know. 920 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:03,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Working in this industry, do you experience jealousy 921 00:46:03,799 --> 00:46:07,519 Speaker 2: or competitiveness and what does that look like? Yes? 922 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: I do. I always have in a way, kind of 923 00:46:10,759 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 1: in a silent way. I remember when I was in UNI, 924 00:46:13,839 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: there was a woman who was really smart and she 925 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 1: was kind of the best in the class, would always 926 00:46:19,399 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 1: get really high distinctions. And I don't think I'm a 927 00:46:22,279 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 1: competitive person, but clearly I am. Yeah, I remember, I 928 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,439 Speaker 1: remember I won't dox her name, but she was just 929 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: really just effortlessly good. And it became like a topic 930 00:46:35,399 --> 00:46:37,599 Speaker 1: in my psychology sessions because I was so hung up 931 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,959 Speaker 1: on it, and it plays into that obsessive personality, the 932 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: rumination thinking, oh, like she's just so good, Like I 933 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 1: don't know what to do, and so yeah, when I 934 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 1: feel jealousy, especially in this career path, it shows me 935 00:46:51,319 --> 00:46:53,439 Speaker 1: where to go when I can take enough of a 936 00:46:53,479 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: step out of it for a second and not let 937 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,999 Speaker 1: the emotion overtake me. I say that person, I'm so 938 00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:59,799 Speaker 1: jealous of them because they're doing something that I want 939 00:46:59,839 --> 00:47:02,600 Speaker 1: to do. Then I go into planning mode. I'm like, Okay, 940 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 1: how can I do what they're doing? What part of it? 941 00:47:05,399 --> 00:47:07,599 Speaker 1: You know? Because sometimes it happens with people who job 942 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 1: I don't want and whose vibe I don't want to emulate, 943 00:47:10,279 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: but I'm still thinking, oh, but they're doing this thing, 944 00:47:12,799 --> 00:47:16,839 Speaker 1: like how do I So Yeah, I think it can ultimately, 945 00:47:16,879 --> 00:47:18,559 Speaker 1: when you can take a step away, it can be 946 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,319 Speaker 1: a good motivating force. But definitely, when it's overwhelming, it 947 00:47:22,439 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 1: just paralyzes you and I fully spiral. 948 00:47:25,879 --> 00:47:28,559 Speaker 2: It can be really clarifying that. Yeah, you think, if 949 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,559 Speaker 2: I've got this feeling and it's an uncomfortable feeling, then 950 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 2: it is telling me something about what I want. And 951 00:47:34,839 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 2: if I didn't get that feeling, ever, I wouldn't be ambitious, 952 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,599 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have goals and I feel exactly the same thing, 953 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,759 Speaker 2: feel the same, yeah, And I think, yeah, you look 954 00:47:44,759 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 2: at you probably have it with a book, like as 955 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,159 Speaker 2: you were writing, like looking at people who have books 956 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:52,439 Speaker 2: and me like, well, that's done really well. Well, that's 957 00:47:52,439 --> 00:47:53,599 Speaker 2: done really well. Why did that do well? 958 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 1: They? 959 00:47:53,759 --> 00:47:55,999 Speaker 2: Oh my god, I want exactly what they have And 960 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 2: it kind of paves a path for then you to 961 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,359 Speaker 2: do the same thing, literally, which is very exciting. When 962 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 2: are you at your happiest at the moment? 963 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:09,879 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm at my happiest when I have so much 964 00:48:09,879 --> 00:48:12,439 Speaker 1: in my to look forward to. That's always been the 965 00:48:12,439 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: thing for me that's gotten me out of any phase. 966 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:16,919 Speaker 1: Is it just need one or two things that I'm 967 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:23,639 Speaker 1: genuinely excited about and there's always something. I think. I'm 968 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,399 Speaker 1: happy when I'm meeting you people and always just having 969 00:48:27,399 --> 00:48:29,360 Speaker 1: someone to hang out. We have become a really social 970 00:48:29,399 --> 00:48:33,479 Speaker 1: person after my eating disorder. Yeah, it's just for me 971 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:34,999 Speaker 1: whenever I've got something to look forward to. 972 00:48:35,799 --> 00:48:38,879 Speaker 2: What are your challenges to happiness? Like, what keeps you 973 00:48:38,919 --> 00:48:40,160 Speaker 2: from happiness? 974 00:48:40,879 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: Comparison obviously procrastinating when I've got things to do. I've 975 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: become a bit of a procrastinator also coming out of 976 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 1: eating disorder, to be honest, which is a bit of 977 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: a negative, Like I used to be super early to 978 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: things and very RIGI and it helped away, but now 979 00:48:54,839 --> 00:48:56,879 Speaker 1: I'm always running a little bit late. You know, when 980 00:48:56,879 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: you've got something so meanial to do that you just 981 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,400 Speaker 1: put it off and then everything feels crab. 982 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 2: That's interesting though, because it's almost like that's what happens 983 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,759 Speaker 2: when you prioritize joy a little bit, when you're like, 984 00:49:07,799 --> 00:49:11,000 Speaker 2: hold on, I actually care about feeling good. I remember 985 00:49:11,359 --> 00:49:14,560 Speaker 2: reading something about how people with eating disorders they don't 986 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 2: like doing things that feel good, so they won't get massages, 987 00:49:17,799 --> 00:49:20,839 Speaker 2: they won't like get their hair done because there's not 988 00:49:20,879 --> 00:49:24,439 Speaker 2: that kind of self love. And that's interesting that you 989 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,599 Speaker 2: were probably prompt with things and because you didn't mind 990 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,439 Speaker 2: being uncomfortable because you were always so true, whereas now 991 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,519 Speaker 2: you're like, oh, I prioritize toy. Yeah thats me. 992 00:49:34,839 --> 00:49:37,319 Speaker 1: My to do list will roll over week to weeks 993 00:49:37,359 --> 00:49:40,879 Speaker 1: before I'm doing it second right now. That's kind of fun. 994 00:49:40,919 --> 00:49:44,759 Speaker 1: And if it makes you feel weary in life, yeah, yeah, yeah, 995 00:49:44,799 --> 00:49:45,839 Speaker 1: I think I think that's it. 996 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, when you think about growing old, What do you 997 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,599 Speaker 2: still want in life in order for you to have 998 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,279 Speaker 2: lived a really happy existence. 999 00:49:57,319 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: I want a community. I want like a big family. 1000 00:50:01,919 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: I want to have people around me that enjoy my company. 1001 00:50:05,439 --> 00:50:06,919 Speaker 1: I want to have young people around me and old 1002 00:50:06,959 --> 00:50:10,439 Speaker 1: people around me. I want to maintain this sense of 1003 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,719 Speaker 1: excitement that I have, and that's kind of always been 1004 00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:14,519 Speaker 1: a hallmark of my life. Like I've always been kind 1005 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,559 Speaker 1: of like an enthusiastic person. I don't even want that 1006 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,879 Speaker 1: to go away. I think, yeah, really important relationships, really 1007 00:50:20,959 --> 00:50:24,520 Speaker 1: deep relationships. I've got a lot of like amazing soulmate friends, 1008 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,039 Speaker 1: So keeping them, nourishing them feels really good to me, 1009 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,160 Speaker 1: and it always has, and I know how lucky I 1010 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: am to have. Like my best friend Madison is a writer. 1011 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,479 Speaker 1: We've been best friends since we were fourteen, and that's 1012 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,919 Speaker 1: such something that is a little apple core that I 1013 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 1: just put in the ground and it just continues to 1014 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,039 Speaker 1: grow and it's such a beautiful thing to watch. And 1015 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,279 Speaker 1: every year that we remain friends adds a little corn 1016 00:50:48,319 --> 00:50:51,359 Speaker 1: to the tree. So exciting. So yeah, I think for me, 1017 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,319 Speaker 1: I'm excited that the idea of getting older that I 1018 00:50:55,319 --> 00:50:58,599 Speaker 1: can like accumulate lovely possessions that I love and like 1019 00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,879 Speaker 1: beautiful clothes, and there's still that material side to me 1020 00:51:01,919 --> 00:51:05,519 Speaker 1: that I really can't get rid of. But yeah, having 1021 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,200 Speaker 1: a community and people that I love is important to me. 1022 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,440 Speaker 2: And right now in your life, are you happy? 1023 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,640 Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah, you can say it right. That is so 1024 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,039 Speaker 1: good to hear. I'm happy that you read my book twice. Yeah, 1025 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:20,959 Speaker 1: that's enough to do me for the day. 1026 00:51:21,839 --> 00:51:23,879 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for your time. I really 1027 00:51:23,959 --> 00:51:28,359 Speaker 2: appreciate it. That is all we've got time for. On 1028 00:51:28,399 --> 00:51:32,040 Speaker 2: today's episode of But Are You Happy? Frums's new book, 1029 00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,479 Speaker 2: All I Ever Wanted Was to Be Hot is out 1030 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,239 Speaker 2: now and I highly recommend it. We will pop a 1031 00:51:37,279 --> 00:51:40,919 Speaker 2: link in the show notes this conversation with such a 1032 00:51:40,959 --> 00:51:45,920 Speaker 2: brilliant exploration of the pain of living through an eating 1033 00:51:45,919 --> 00:51:49,239 Speaker 2: disorder and the joy that comes with recovery, which we 1034 00:51:49,399 --> 00:51:53,360 Speaker 2: so rarely get to see. To sit in a room 1035 00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 2: with frooms with enter Price is to see a person 1036 00:51:58,279 --> 00:52:03,239 Speaker 2: who is so full of life and so charismatic. And 1037 00:52:04,279 --> 00:52:06,759 Speaker 2: I sometimes need this reminder. So I'm just going to 1038 00:52:06,799 --> 00:52:08,319 Speaker 2: say it out loud that when you sit in a 1039 00:52:08,399 --> 00:52:11,519 Speaker 2: room with somebody and you really connect with them and 1040 00:52:12,439 --> 00:52:19,960 Speaker 2: you have a lively and vulnerable conversation. It just does 1041 00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 2: not matter what they look like, what size they are, 1042 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,200 Speaker 2: whether their hair or makeup or clothing is perfect, whether 1043 00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,519 Speaker 2: they have creases on their face, which I do and 1044 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,920 Speaker 2: I think about way too much. You just feel their energy, 1045 00:52:33,359 --> 00:52:35,999 Speaker 2: and I think it's such a good reminder for all 1046 00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,839 Speaker 2: of us that we think about it so much more 1047 00:52:40,399 --> 00:52:43,480 Speaker 2: than we need to, given that it isn't what anybody 1048 00:52:43,479 --> 00:52:48,040 Speaker 2: else values about us. I really hope this chat was 1049 00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:53,119 Speaker 2: an insight into how oppressive beauty standards can be and 1050 00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,719 Speaker 2: how they steal our happiness and the freedom that can 1051 00:52:56,759 --> 00:53:01,399 Speaker 2: come from challenging them in our own small ways. The 1052 00:53:01,439 --> 00:53:04,919 Speaker 2: Butterfly Foundation is a great support service for anyone who 1053 00:53:04,919 --> 00:53:08,799 Speaker 2: struggles with disordered eating or body image issues. There's a 1054 00:53:08,839 --> 00:53:12,480 Speaker 2: link to them and other support services in our show notes. 1055 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:17,000 Speaker 2: And if there's anybody who you think might get something 1056 00:53:17,479 --> 00:53:19,399 Speaker 2: out of this episode, I know there's a lot of 1057 00:53:19,799 --> 00:53:23,479 Speaker 2: people in my life who will please share it with them. 1058 00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,799 Speaker 2: And if you want to recommend someone for the show, 1059 00:53:25,919 --> 00:53:28,319 Speaker 2: you can always get in touch with me directly. I 1060 00:53:28,359 --> 00:53:32,480 Speaker 2: get the best suggestions from our listeners. You can message 1061 00:53:32,479 --> 00:53:36,119 Speaker 2: me on Instagram, and if you like the show, leave 1062 00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,439 Speaker 2: us a review. We always love your feedback and it 1063 00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,399 Speaker 2: helps people to find us. The executive producer of But 1064 00:53:42,439 --> 00:53:45,359 Speaker 2: Are You Happy is Nama Brown and the producer is 1065 00:53:45,439 --> 00:53:49,799 Speaker 2: Charlie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott Stronik. I'm your host, 1066 00:53:49,919 --> 00:53:51,959 Speaker 2: Claire Stevens, and we'll see you next week