Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma mea acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1: That period of my life was like extremely low and
Speaker 1: extremely like a bit of a blur, but it's so powerful,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like that was actually the turning point
Speaker 1: in my life where I built a better relationship with myself.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to But Are You Happy? The podcast
Speaker 2: that asked the questions you've always wanted to know from
Speaker 2: the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire
Speaker 2: Stevens and about six weeks ago I saw a video
Speaker 2: I haven't been able to stop thinking about. It was
Speaker 2: of twenty seven year old Australian boxer Harry Garside after
Speaker 2: he lost in the first round at the Paras Olympics. Initially,
Speaker 2: he cried and was unable to speak. It was as
Speaker 2: though we were watching him in real time process the
Speaker 2: fact that his most vivid life goal, the one he'd
Speaker 2: spent his whole adult life working towards, was over. In
Speaker 2: nine minutes. He'd gone from an Olympic hopeful to feeling,
Speaker 2: in his words during a postmatch interview, like a failure.
Speaker 2: I didn't envision this happening, He said, I could see
Speaker 2: the gold medal in all the visualizations and it all
Speaker 2: went wrong. With his head bowed, looking shattered, we watch
Speaker 2: Garside come to terms with the significance of this loss.
Speaker 2: The sun will come up tomorrow and whatever happens. But
Speaker 2: I just know the next few months for myself will
Speaker 2: be a pretty hard time, he said. I'm sure I'll
Speaker 2: have some dark moments and I'm fucking terrified, to be honest.
Speaker 2: About a month after the Games, I interviewed Harry Garside
Speaker 2: about failure, about the moment he was very publicly arrested
Speaker 2: for something he didn't do, about the time he did
Speaker 2: have a medal around his neck and was shocked to
Speaker 2: find he felt empty. Harry is warm and charismatic and insightful,
Speaker 2: and ultimately he's so much more than the outcome of
Speaker 2: a boxing match, even one taking place at the Olympics.
Speaker 2: Here's Harry Garside. I want to start by asking, did
Speaker 2: you grow up in a happy family? Was happiness prioritized
Speaker 2: in your home?
Speaker 1: Oh, I've never been asked that question before. It's so
Speaker 1: interesting because I guess any childhood like, there's good and
Speaker 1: bad to it, right, my parents like they didn't have
Speaker 1: too much money and they were raising three boys into
Speaker 1: the Azure five and I felt distress definitely for my parents.
Speaker 1: But we also got like a lot of opportunities, Like
Speaker 1: we spent a lot of time in the Victorian high country,
Speaker 1: like full driving or camping, and I think that was
Speaker 1: really good for my growth, like being in nature and
Speaker 1: just being very curious about the land and about things.
Speaker 1: And I'm really grateful for that. But I think just
Speaker 1: like any childhood, there's highs and lows. There's good, there's bad.
Speaker 1: And I wouldn't say that it was it was either
Speaker 1: happy or not happy. Like it's a good question because
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know if any human can ever
Speaker 1: fully have a happy childhood, right because and it's all
Speaker 1: it's like, if a kid did have just like a
Speaker 1: pure happy childhood, it's like, are you doing them at disservice?
Speaker 1: Because life's going to knock them down when they're an
Speaker 1: adult and they've never experienced that before. It's like, are
Speaker 1: you doing them at disservice if you don't experience the
Speaker 1: whole range of human emassions with.
Speaker 2: Them and build some resilience from like a really young
Speaker 2: age in terms of your mum and dad. Do you
Speaker 2: feel like they are happy people? Do they struggle with happiness?
Speaker 2: Like when you were growing up and seeing your parents,
Speaker 2: did you see people who approached life with a zest
Speaker 2: and a joy or people who you think struggle to
Speaker 2: do that?
Speaker 1: Ooh, So I feel like I take after my dad
Speaker 1: a fair bit, But then the older I get, I
Speaker 1: feel like I've probably take after both of them just
Speaker 1: as equally. But my dad. I found many moments in
Speaker 1: my childhood where I would reflect on my dad being
Speaker 1: like their class clown or like the one at the pub,
Speaker 1: being the funny guy, but people often laughed at him,
Speaker 1: not with him, And I think he felt this need
Speaker 1: to play that character right, And I definitely felt that
Speaker 1: for a lot of my childhood as well, like I
Speaker 1: felt this need to prove myself, especially to men in
Speaker 1: my life. And I definitely see some similarities to my dad.
Speaker 1: And it's been really beautiful to sort of see his
Speaker 1: growth as a human too. The more open that I
Speaker 1: can be about being myself, it's actually encouraged him a
Speaker 1: little bit to be that too, which has been really nice.
Speaker 1: My mom's a little bit more like like staunch and
Speaker 1: like a householdful of men. She's the only woman, and
Speaker 1: she she's the strongest one by far, Like she rules
Speaker 1: the roofs, and all the boys know that in the family,
Speaker 1: Like you don't backchat mom, like you don't disrespect mom,
Speaker 1: like everyone knows that. And Mom's always been very staunch,
Speaker 1: which is just nice. So in that it was like
Speaker 1: she was happy, of course, singly wrong, she was herself,
Speaker 1: but also as well, she was like the leader of
Speaker 1: the roost. So it's like we didn't really want to
Speaker 1: like make her unhappy.
Speaker 3: Or yeah, sad.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I want to jump forward to the recent paras Olympics.
Speaker 2: So at the end of July, your lifelong dream of
Speaker 2: winning gold at the Olympics was over in just nine minutes,
Speaker 2: and after the fire you collapsed onto the floor, and
Speaker 2: then you gave an interview directly afterwards. That struck a
Speaker 2: lot of people. So I have a group chat with
Speaker 2: some of my closest friends, and one friend, who is
Speaker 2: a blokey bloke didn't even know he was watching the Olympics,
Speaker 2: didn't even know what he was doing, messaged us and said,
Speaker 2: holy shit, have you guys seen this interview?
Speaker 3: And he sent it to us and.
Speaker 2: We all talked about how refreshing and moving that vulnerability was.
Speaker 2: You said, two decades dedicated to one dream and it's over.
Speaker 2: Just like that, I feel like I've let myself down.
Speaker 2: I feel like a failure right now. I don't even
Speaker 2: know what to say. I fear for what the next
Speaker 2: couple of months look like for myself. Did you make
Speaker 2: a conscious decision in that moment to choose vulnerability rather
Speaker 2: than those default athlete answers that we get.
Speaker 1: I've always sort of tried my best to move with
Speaker 1: authenticity and whatever comes out comes out, and I don't
Speaker 1: always live up to that. Like sometimes you do have
Speaker 1: to play like a little bit of a character, like
Speaker 1: I'm not going to lay out my deepest, darkest secrets
Speaker 1: to people that I don't know. But it's like in
Speaker 1: that moment, I genuinely was terrified, like I have failed
Speaker 1: a number of times in my life, or I've been
Speaker 1: through like a breakup, or like my family, I've had problems,
Speaker 1: and it's like just seeing the things that I turned
Speaker 1: to in those moments, like I was genuinely terrified, like
Speaker 1: this meant so much to me, and it's almost like
Speaker 1: I felt those emotions. I went out the back where
Speaker 1: there's no cameras around, and I like, howed, I haven't
Speaker 1: cried like that in a long time. And I think
Speaker 1: it's almost like my body just took over. It's like
Speaker 1: full and self preservation mode right now. Like I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say I'm feeling emotions too much right now, and I
Speaker 1: think there's like this little safety kind of mechanism going
Speaker 1: on that it's like trying to protect me. And I've
Speaker 1: said when this book too is done, I'm doing a
Speaker 1: little book tour at the moment, and when I can
Speaker 1: have it a free time, I'm going to do like
Speaker 1: four or five days in nature and get the phone,
Speaker 1: put it in my car, not touch it, and just
Speaker 1: be by myself and who knows what will come up,
Speaker 1: but create the space for something to come up. And
Speaker 1: it might be happiness. It might be joy. It might
Speaker 1: be like, oh, thank God that Olympic journey's over. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Or it might be sadness and anger and frustration with myself.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, bro, I want to create that space.
Speaker 2: It's interesting you said in another interview that you felt
Speaker 2: really numb, and I agree that sometimes when something really
Speaker 2: challenging happens, it's like you'll almost go into that self
Speaker 2: preservation mode, and I reckon you go into it for
Speaker 2: a while and once you come out of it, you've
Speaker 2: actually healed, but you weren't even conscious that you were healing.
Speaker 2: How does the loss sit with you now? Like I
Speaker 2: know you said you're not kind of feeling all the emotions,
Speaker 2: but day to day are you feeling better or worse
Speaker 2: than you thought you would?
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I think if I lost five years ago,
Speaker 1: my answer would be completely different. But I think I
Speaker 1: have really worked on my identity outside of boxing, Like
Speaker 1: my whole life, my identity was consumed with that of
Speaker 1: only being a boxer and I the win. I felt
Speaker 1: the win. I was like, yes, I'm the man. The loss,
Speaker 1: I was like, it's me. I felt like a failure.
Speaker 1: I was, And it's like, I don't know if I
Speaker 1: ever I'll ever fully break that, like I've done it
Speaker 1: for twenty years, right. It is very much a big
Speaker 1: part of my identities or my whole identity though, but
Speaker 1: I have created something outside of that, And I also
Speaker 1: know like who I am as a person, Like boxing
Speaker 1: is what I do, it's not who I am, and
Speaker 1: I have been able to separate that and I'm really
Speaker 1: grateful for that, because I do know boxing has a
Speaker 1: shelf life and there's a funny story in the boxing world,
Speaker 1: and it's probably all industries, but there's always those fifty
Speaker 1: year old blocks in the path who're having a few beers. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Back in my day, I was like, go on gloves champing.
Speaker 1: It's like they're still living on that moment forty years before,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to be that. Like, this is
Speaker 1: definitely the highlight of my life so far. It's taken
Speaker 1: me all around the world and I've loved it, but
Speaker 1: it's like, this won't be the highlight of my life.
Speaker 1: I want kids, I want to do more, I want
Speaker 1: experience other things like and I'm very much not attached
Speaker 1: to that identity anymore. So that's why I think that
Speaker 1: it hasn't rocked me as hard as what I thought
Speaker 1: it would.
Speaker 2: What do you think you learn from those moments, like
Speaker 2: that moment of striving so hard for something and realizing
Speaker 2: that there are things you can control and things you can't.
Speaker 2: What do you think you learn from feeling like you failed.
Speaker 1: The universe stops for no one? Yeah, self, feeling sorry
Speaker 1: for yourself?
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: I mentioned this in the book The Good Fight that
Speaker 1: just come out a little plug. But like I actually
Speaker 1: mentioned this in the book, and I was saying, like
Speaker 1: I think this world kind of fosters victim mentality. I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's like, of course the world sucks and
Speaker 1: it's unfair and unjust. You don't have to look too
Speaker 1: far to see those things, like in our society and
Speaker 1: then also internationally overseas we're seeing it on our phone.
Speaker 1: But like self feeling sorry for yourself, it's like no
Speaker 1: one's coming and it's up to you always, and don't
Speaker 1: be wrong. Absolutely feel your emotions and be in pain,
Speaker 1: don't suppress them. But like I get up, like let's
Speaker 1: go on, Like it's up to you always, and of
Speaker 1: course don't be wrong. I've also got a beautiful support network,
Speaker 1: but it is always up to us, and we can
Speaker 1: sit there and complain and feel bad for ourselves. We're
Speaker 1: living in one of the greatest countries on earth with
Speaker 1: so much opportunity. Like I always think that, like the
Speaker 1: world stops from no one keep going.
Speaker 2: In the book, you write about doing a breath work
Speaker 2: session and you say you had a moment of realization
Speaker 2: and it was this I've spent far too long searching
Speaker 2: for happiness and external sources people, success, money, girlfriends, sex, addiction, whatever.
Speaker 2: I think everything I need is already within me. No,
Speaker 2: I know that's the case. Off the back of the
Speaker 2: paras Olympics. How easy or hard is it to remember
Speaker 2: that that happiness is always within you and it's not
Speaker 2: about the external stuff.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I feel like I'm getting a massive
Speaker 1: hug from all of Australia right now, which is quite nice.
Speaker 1: So it actually I am getting external something. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can answer that question truthfully
Speaker 1: because it's like I'm feeling like I'm getting it's in
Speaker 1: a sense, which is a weird thing. So I also
Speaker 1: know that it is. I'd say it's fake because I
Speaker 1: feel the love, I feel that people care, and I
Speaker 1: feel that there's a lot of people there. But it's
Speaker 1: like nothing outside yourself can ever change how you feel
Speaker 1: about yourself. And I have realized that. I think I
Speaker 1: realized that after Tokyo. So I sat with the bronze medal,
Speaker 1: which was a success. We don't do that very often
Speaker 1: in Australia, and I sat there in quarantine and had
Speaker 1: the medal on my neck, and I was looking at
Speaker 1: myself in the mirror, and I felt so unhappy. Really now,
Speaker 1: I'm like, if that's not a sign that this isn't right?
Speaker 1: And what do we do? Our society is just this
Speaker 1: capitalist driven society where like you're fed your insecurities, You've
Speaker 1: fed these things. It's achievement based. We show all these
Speaker 1: gold medalists on the TV, and we show all these things.
Speaker 1: We prop these CEOs and these people who are probably
Speaker 1: just they might be successful in one thing, but like
Speaker 1: they don't have a happy life outside of that. Like,
Speaker 1: I find it weird that we don't prop up like
Speaker 1: people who work in the cancer ward almost twenty four
Speaker 1: to seven, or like these people work in child hospitals
Speaker 1: or like look after the animals. Like our society is
Speaker 1: toxic and we just keep going and we don't care
Speaker 1: about it. It's a really interesting thing. I know, I'm
Speaker 1: getting really passionate right now. And I play into that too,
Speaker 1: because like I'm an athlete, Like my life's not hard,
Speaker 1: not really doing too much for society, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: really spending my time dedicated to helping others, but like
Speaker 1: I get all these opportunities right. It's a weird thing.
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting thing to sort of grapple with.
Speaker 2: When you got that medal from the Tokyo Olympics and
Speaker 2: you were feeling miserable, what was it? Was it stuff
Speaker 2: independent of the medal? Was it stuff just in your life?
Speaker 1: I felt like I wasn't worthy of love. I felt
Speaker 1: like I was nothing like I felt really miserable. And
Speaker 1: I think, whatever the belief is, whether it's true or not,
Speaker 1: it's like you will collect the evidence that it is true.
Speaker 1: That's how we work, That's how we're hardwire. So it's like,
Speaker 1: I think for most of my life, I just kept
Speaker 1: collecting the evidence that I wasn't good enough, that I
Speaker 1: needed to achieve something so then I would be good enough.
Speaker 1: And then you achieved something like I got the Comwalth
Speaker 1: Games gold medal or my home soil my first major
Speaker 1: support event, and I woke up in the morning I
Speaker 1: was like, nothing's changed, Like I'm still the same person
Speaker 1: and I still hold these core beliefs, but I don't
Speaker 1: feel like I'm worthy or good enough. And it's a
Speaker 1: really interesting thing because I do also like sit this
Speaker 1: coexist belief is like it is also the twenty year
Speaker 1: career of striving for greatness that has made me change
Speaker 1: my belief about myself or made me realize that I
Speaker 1: am more, I am capable. So it's like I don't
Speaker 1: want to say to young people that, like, hey, striving
Speaker 1: for things is a bad thing, but it's like just
Speaker 1: realizing that, like set big, audacious goals, but just realize
Speaker 1: that achieving that goal won't change who you are as
Speaker 1: a person.
Speaker 2: It's almost like the striving, striving is.
Speaker 3: What makes you who you are.
Speaker 2: But do you think sometimes achievement and as somebody who
Speaker 2: has medals and has been winning things from a young age,
Speaker 2: do you think sometimes achievement can like plug the self
Speaker 2: esteem holes artificially like that you it's like you get
Speaker 2: a medal instead of looking internally for things to feel
Speaker 2: proud of.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it kind of like you get like a
Speaker 1: slap on the bump from all of society. People start
Speaker 1: celebrating you go, oh you are so amazing, How good
Speaker 1: is this? And then you you feel good. It's like
Speaker 1: instant gratification. You feel good. It's like eating the sweet
Speaker 1: food or like I don't having a beer. It's like
Speaker 1: those instant gratification things like short lives. It's like really
Speaker 1: short lived and then you go back to home and
Speaker 1: you're like, Wow, I'm lonely and I don't like my
Speaker 1: own company, Like it's a strange reality that we can't
Speaker 1: And I think there's this is a common experience for
Speaker 1: many people in our society. I think I've just tried
Speaker 1: my best. I don't think it's like a linear thing.
Speaker 1: I don't think you just arrive at a destination and go, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm happy. I'm contenting myself. It's like, I just want
Speaker 1: to have more days like that more often than not.
Speaker 1: But I find that by me collecting the evidence that
Speaker 1: I am a good person, that I am worthy, it's
Speaker 1: like that has changed a little belief about myself. And
Speaker 1: nine times out of ten my days are like that now,
Speaker 1: where I'm like, I think that I'm worthy, I think
Speaker 1: that I'm capable, I think that I'm deserving. But it's
Speaker 1: because I'm doing those things and I'm collecting the evidence
Speaker 1: that I am those things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, from what you're saying, it almost feels like that
Speaker 2: moment in Paris where you don't get what it is
Speaker 2: that you want. Sometimes that's like a more meaningful life
Speaker 2: moment because it actually clarifies that the reason you were
Speaker 2: doing all of this was not for the metal, but
Speaker 2: for what it would teach you along the way. Like,
Speaker 2: I think it probably as much as I'm sure it
Speaker 2: is heartbreaking, And me sitting here not having trained in
Speaker 2: the Olympics for two decades, I'm like, it's fine, but
Speaker 2: I kind of think there's got to be some profound
Speaker 2: meaning in that moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you ever read The Alchemist?
Speaker 3: No, but I should smart people.
Speaker 1: It's a really easy read. I'm not a smart person,
Speaker 1: but it's one hundred and seventy pages and it's so easy.
Speaker 1: But it's very much the story of that he goes
Speaker 1: on a search for treasure and then he kind of
Speaker 1: gets the treasure. He realized that. He's like, oh, this
Speaker 1: wasn't what I was searching for. It's a weird thing, right,
Speaker 1: Like even if I was to win that gold medal,
Speaker 1: and then I ride this wave and it kind of
Speaker 1: plugs a hole, and then like he is something like, wow,
Speaker 1: I'm like depressed, Like what you know? I mean, like,
Speaker 1: at least now I'm like, hey, my worth isn't attached
Speaker 1: to that gold medal, Like I know that who I
Speaker 1: am as a person, of course is heartbreaking. Of course
Speaker 1: I spent two decades trying to chase that. It's like,
Speaker 1: I know that if my friend called me, or my
Speaker 1: brother called me, or if I saw someone on the
Speaker 1: street struggling, I would be there to help. And that
Speaker 1: is where I get myself worth.
Speaker 2: And I think that's really important for people to be
Speaker 2: aware of. And and I love what you say about
Speaker 2: being an athlete or being in the public eye. You're
Speaker 2: not the person working in a council ward or working
Speaker 2: with sick children, because I think sometimes your ego can
Speaker 2: trick you into thinking that you are actually the most
Speaker 2: important thing in the world and you're better than everyone else.
Speaker 3: And it would be easy to think.
Speaker 1: That social media, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 2: People are just like, oh my gosh, you're amazing. You
Speaker 2: must get messages every day from people just in awe
Speaker 2: of you. And I think it's really important to remember
Speaker 2: what it is, yeah, that you do, and also be
Speaker 2: in awe of other people and what they do day
Speaker 2: to day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a saying it's like, be more interested, not interesting.
Speaker 1: Was Matthew mcconnae.
Speaker 3: He's actually very I know.
Speaker 1: I'm super wise, and I really like his story. I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure it's the youngest of three boys too. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I love his story. But it's so true, like I
Speaker 1: actually got someone to take over my social media like
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago now, because it's like it
Speaker 1: was nineteen to nine percent positive like this, there is
Speaker 1: some negative, and you probably remember the negative because that's
Speaker 1: say hard why, But like, so you read nine numbercent
Speaker 1: positive comments about yourself, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, it's
Speaker 1: like you start thinking you're a legend. Yeah, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm not, like, I'm not like I know, I'm not
Speaker 1: a bad person, but it's like I'm super flawed and
Speaker 1: like I and I don't always live up to the
Speaker 1: person I want to be. I try my best, and
Speaker 1: I think that's like most people, right, But it's like
Speaker 1: you start reading that, you're like, yeah, I'm real good.
Speaker 1: Let's say so good.
Speaker 2: It's I often talk on this show about the idea
Speaker 2: that the expectation of happiness can be a bit of
Speaker 2: a trap, and there are moments in life where the
Speaker 2: world tells us we'll be happy when we get the
Speaker 2: thing we've been striving for, or how lives look particularly
Speaker 2: shiny and perfect from the outside, but beneath the surface,
Speaker 2: we are just not happy. Is there a time in
Speaker 2: your life that you think of where the world told
Speaker 2: you you'd be happy and you weren't.
Speaker 1: Or that if and when mindset. Yeah, it's a weird trap. Yeah,
Speaker 1: probably after most achievements, right, yeah, yeah, definitely after a
Speaker 1: lot of the times where I achieved something and as
Speaker 1: I said, like it was like a plug something for
Speaker 1: a period of time, but it's like it's not long
Speaker 1: and then you're like, I've got to get the next thing.
Speaker 1: It's like it's a genuine addiction, like like an addictions
Speaker 1: running my family. I've been addicted to negative things in
Speaker 1: my life. I've been addicted to positive things in my life,
Speaker 1: but they all cause very similar things. And it's like
Speaker 1: low self worth and then it's like unique that next
Speaker 1: feeling to feel something to feel in your body or
Speaker 1: else you're just like life is boring. I find that
Speaker 1: because I've lived the highest of highs and I've been
Speaker 1: the lowest of lows, and wow, I feel alive in both. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but in the middle you're like, oh this is so yeah,
Speaker 1: it feels like that sometimes. So I don't know. I
Speaker 1: want to try and get control of that before I
Speaker 1: have kids, because I don't want to pass on to kids,
Speaker 1: but it's a hard reality to live in of Like
Speaker 1: when I'm operating at this like halfway, I'm like, man,
Speaker 1: this is boring.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think also when you're used to those extremes
Speaker 2: like which I can imagine when you go into the
Speaker 2: ring for boxing, you have so much adrenaline, you have
Speaker 2: like you're just so present and so aware. I can't
Speaker 2: imagine there are many other times in day to day
Speaker 2: life when you feel like that. Is there a comdown
Speaker 2: after a.
Speaker 1: Fight, absolutely, yeah, massive come down, even after an event
Speaker 1: like the Olympics. But I think like you even't thinking
Speaker 1: about like the smaller scale. So you go to like
Speaker 1: a music festival, like or you go to a concert,
Speaker 1: like it's like amazing, this endorphin release, you're connected to humans,
Speaker 1: you're singing your favorite band. But then you go home
Speaker 1: you're like, like you're little bit unhappy the next day.
Speaker 1: But it's like it's because you've like exhausted yourself a
Speaker 1: little bit, and it's just that's the reality of things.
Speaker 1: But and I guess the higher you go, the lower
Speaker 1: you go on the other end as well. But I've
Speaker 1: learned to manage that quite well. And I'm pretty proud
Speaker 1: of myself this time, like five years ago, I ailed
Speaker 1: at a number of things, and like the different decisions
Speaker 1: I was making compared to now, it's like chalk and cheese.
Speaker 1: So I'm pretty proud of myself for that.
Speaker 2: What kind of things did you used to do when
Speaker 2: you failed?
Speaker 3: Where did you go? And what were the unhealthy behaviors
Speaker 3: that you leaned into?
Speaker 1: Be more like substance abuse and stuff like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it'd be trying to like numb the person I saw
Speaker 1: in the mirror. Yeah, Yeah, it was just like I
Speaker 1: was super ashamed of myself, and it would be like
Speaker 1: more of a punishment, Yeah, punishment, but it would be
Speaker 1: kind of hidden away with like laughter and joking with
Speaker 1: people that you're with. But it was like even because
Speaker 1: you're like shivered singing about like it was hard to
Speaker 1: be in that like just knowing that I wasn't there
Speaker 1: for fun. I was there to like actually just like
Speaker 1: no numb my feelings. Like I don't know, and I
Speaker 1: just I feel like I've spoken to a number of
Speaker 1: people in my life and I feel like we often
Speaker 1: do this as humans, Like we feel the heaviest of
Speaker 1: emotions and we run away and distract, and I'm guilty
Speaker 1: of this too. I'm doing it right now with this
Speaker 1: book tour, like I'm not really feeling what i need
Speaker 1: to feel, and I am conscious that I'm trying to
Speaker 1: create this space when I have some time. So but
Speaker 1: it's one of the things we do. It's like, as
Speaker 1: you said, though you like run away, distract, try and
Speaker 1: you may not feel it, and then it's like, in
Speaker 1: the process of that, you kind of pick up a
Speaker 1: few tools and you get through it in a weird way.
Speaker 1: It's like out of the universe is always working for us.
Speaker 1: I believe, not against this, but yeah, it's a strange reality.
Speaker 2: After the break, Harry talks about how his life has
Speaker 2: changed since gaining a public profile and whether he thinks
Speaker 2: money actually does by happiness. You talked about during your
Speaker 2: childhood you didn't necessarily have a lot of money, and
Speaker 2: now I would imagine you're in a very financially different
Speaker 2: position where not only I assume you've made good money
Speaker 2: from boxing and media and that sort of thing, but
Speaker 2: there are lots of opportunities for you to make money.
Speaker 2: Do you think money buys happiness.
Speaker 1: The buye's freedom. Yeah, I don't think it buys happiness.
Speaker 1: I think you can chase something your whole life, and
Speaker 1: if you don't like the person you see in the mirror,
Speaker 1: it's like that's not happy. But I think money does
Speaker 1: buy time and freedom. And I know, coming from no money,
Speaker 1: like I want to make sure when I have kids,
Speaker 1: like I didn't go to private school, and or make
Speaker 1: sure I try and send them to the best school possible,
Speaker 1: Like I want to give them the best opportunity I can, right,
Speaker 1: I want to strive for things financially for them and
Speaker 1: for myself as well, like I want to change the
Speaker 1: stars for my family and my future family. But I
Speaker 1: don't think money buys happiness. Like find your passions, find
Speaker 1: your interest, and it's like when you're feeling secure financially,
Speaker 1: it's like, make sure you create time and space to
Speaker 1: do those things. It's like I actually read this threat.
Speaker 1: I think it was on Instagram, and it was around
Speaker 1: like investing in love. Like love is the most beautiful emotion,
Speaker 1: right we all love being in love or loving our
Speaker 1: favorite sport team or like our favorite thing. Love is
Speaker 1: so pure, And it was like invest in love, invest
Speaker 1: in those cute little romantic dates, invest in those like
Speaker 1: the journals so you can write each other love notes
Speaker 1: and invest in those things that like you care about me.
Speaker 1: I think so often as humans we're just like we
Speaker 1: push those things to the side because they're always here
Speaker 1: our partner or our family. We push them to the side,
Speaker 1: but like, dedicate some time to those people. Like I
Speaker 1: don't know, we spend more time working rather than like
Speaker 1: investing in love. But I get it, you might need
Speaker 1: to strive that. I'd rather spend all my money and
Speaker 1: like I don't be in love and just pure.
Speaker 2: I think the problem is that when you're struggling financially,
Speaker 2: all your energy goes to that and you don't have
Speaker 2: time to think about investing in love, or investing in peace,
Speaker 2: or investing in yourself because every moment is stressing about money.
Speaker 2: That's what it feels like with money. Like what's your
Speaker 2: relationship with money? Do you use it to help your family?
Speaker 2: Do you use it to invest in incredible experiences?
Speaker 3: Like where do you go with it?
Speaker 1: It's there a combination of everything. Yeah, this is one
Speaker 1: of the qualities I really like about myself. I'm super
Speaker 1: generous for my money, almost to a fault sometimes, But
Speaker 1: I've always been very much like that, like I'm always
Speaker 1: the person who say you're at a friend dinner or
Speaker 1: something like that. It's like, I get up, I've gone
Speaker 1: on the toll and I'll pay for dinner.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: It's just like my dad very much was like that.
Speaker 1: And I'm in a position now where it's like, yes,
Speaker 1: I don't have a house, like I don't have heaps
Speaker 1: of money, Like yeah, that's the thing, A generation won't
Speaker 1: buy a house, but like, I don't have heaps of security.
Speaker 1: But compared to where I was, like I literally didn't
Speaker 1: make the Rio Olympics in twenty sixteen. I was fresh
Speaker 1: eighteen and I was in fifteen thousand dollars debt trying
Speaker 1: to make the team. I didn't even make it, right,
Speaker 1: And it's like I spent the next two or three
Speaker 1: years paying off that debt as a tradesman. And then
Speaker 1: now I'm in a position now where it's like I
Speaker 1: can look back at that and go, I'm so different now,
Speaker 1: And yes, of course I'm not well off on the
Speaker 1: standard of Australia. I'm in a position now I don't
Speaker 1: have responsibilities, I don't have kids. So if I can
Speaker 1: help a friend out, if I can help a brother out,
Speaker 1: if I can help a family out, then I will
Speaker 1: one hundred percent trum my best to do its.
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty three, you went into the jungle for
Speaker 2: I'm a Celebrity and you finished second and you were
Speaker 2: just adored by viewers, and there was a little period
Speaker 2: of time when you'd finish filming and when you got
Speaker 2: on the plane to go home, that sounded really magical
Speaker 2: and you got to spend time with your dad. Can
Speaker 2: you tell me about what that experience.
Speaker 1: Was like talking about money, Like I upgraded my dad
Speaker 1: to business class, which is awesome. So like me and
Speaker 1: my dad like growing up, like would never have a
Speaker 1: dream of going to business class.
Speaker 2: I've never flown business class. And your description of business class,
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, I just.
Speaker 1: Wanted so so wild, Like I'm just doing that with
Speaker 1: my dad, Like, especially after such an amazing experience like
Speaker 1: I'm a celebrity. Yeah, me and my dad, it must
Speaker 1: have been. We're both quite pissed by the time the
Speaker 1: time we took off, Like it was such an amazing
Speaker 1: experience and just to sort of share that with my dad,
Speaker 1: like so unbelievably grateful.
Speaker 2: I don't know why it's particularly with our dads but
Speaker 2: sometimes we feel like you're trying to be all flashy
Speaker 2: and achieve things so that your dad will be proud
Speaker 2: of you. You're doing like a dance, You're like, hey Dad,
Speaker 2: hey dad, look at what I'm doing. And with that,
Speaker 2: it's like you had been on TV Australia had loved you,
Speaker 2: and then you had some time in like fancy accommodation
Speaker 2: where you got to.
Speaker 3: See animals and all that, did you feel like your
Speaker 3: dad was really really proud of you.
Speaker 1: I know both my parents are extremely proud of me.
Speaker 1: I don't think you realize this when you're younger, but
Speaker 1: I I went to my dad a few times in
Speaker 1: my life and some quite recently too, Like I would say,
Speaker 1: this is like my goal, this is my dream, what
Speaker 1: I want to do, and he would shout me down
Speaker 1: straight away. And I didn't realize this as a kid,
Speaker 1: and you would take that personally think oh what, like
Speaker 1: he doesn't believe in me or like whatever, and you
Speaker 1: just take this creates your story. But what I've realized
Speaker 1: it's like it's his projection of him not believing that
Speaker 1: he's capable of doing that, which is heartbreaking. Right, Like
Speaker 1: my dad's one of the smartest men. I know, Like
Speaker 1: he does those quiz you know, those game shows, He's
Speaker 1: getting every question right. I'm like, that's why are you trained?
Speaker 1: But obviously you're the smartest, like go on who wants
Speaker 1: to win it. I know it's sad because it comes
Speaker 1: from his I'm assuming I have no idea. I think
Speaker 1: it comes from his projection of he doesn't potentially believe
Speaker 1: that if his wild reshimes, he could do it. So
Speaker 1: but I'm like, surely, after twenty seven years of life,
Speaker 1: I've proven to you by now that like if I
Speaker 1: said I'm going to do something, I'm going to try
Speaker 1: my absolute hardest to do it. I might not achieve it,
Speaker 1: but I'll be bloody trying.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so it sounds like you were in this
Speaker 2: beautiful moment of doing things that you never thought you'd
Speaker 2: be able to do with your dad, and having come
Speaker 2: off the back of this show, then you landed in
Speaker 2: Australia and you pretty much entered a nightmare. Can you
Speaker 2: tell me about the moment that you were arrested?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. To be honest, I haven't ran away
Speaker 1: from that. More than anything. I don't know if you'll
Speaker 1: ever get fully get through something like that it's like
Speaker 1: a weird sort of I wouldn't say PTSD. Maybe it is,
Speaker 1: it might have formed of PTSD, but yeah, I just
Speaker 1: walked into something that I had absolutely no idea was
Speaker 1: going to occur. So just like that period of my
Speaker 1: life was like extremely low, like a bit of a blur,
Speaker 1: but it's so powerful, like what goes on in that
Speaker 1: I actually felt like that was like one of the
Speaker 1: best things to ever happen to me. Like I feel
Speaker 1: like that was actually the turning point in my life
Speaker 1: where I built a better relationship with myself. I had
Speaker 1: my own back in that moment, I showed up for myself.
Speaker 1: I didn't turn to anything negative. I didn't drink for
Speaker 1: like six months. I like was just doing what I
Speaker 1: needed to do to get through that moment, and I'm
Speaker 1: really grateful for that. I actually did a breathwork experience
Speaker 1: probably three months post and I was still very much
Speaker 1: in it, and I had this beautiful experience where I
Speaker 1: was like bird's eye view of myself. And this has
Speaker 1: never happened to me. People talk about it in their
Speaker 1: breath of extimes. My shut up, that doesn't happen. It
Speaker 1: happened to me, and I was like hugging a young kid,
Speaker 1: and I'm just assuming it was my younger self. I'm
Speaker 1: what a full circle moment. That young kid was like
Speaker 1: so sad, right, But I, as a twenty six year
Speaker 1: old man at the time, I had his own bag.
Speaker 1: I had his back, And I'm really grateful that that
Speaker 1: moment happened because I think I wouldn't be able to
Speaker 1: handle the Paris loss the way I am now if
Speaker 1: it wasn't for that moment, right, that was life shattering.
Speaker 2: That moment of being arrested. From reading your book, I
Speaker 2: didn't even think how many opportunities you would have lost
Speaker 2: in that moment, where people would have just pulled contracts,
Speaker 2: pulled things. And the other thing you write about is
Speaker 2: how it impacted relationships. So what happened in terms of like,
Speaker 2: were there people who let you down in that moment
Speaker 2: where you really needed support.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say let me down. I would definitely more
Speaker 1: so say they showed their true colors. But there was
Speaker 1: many people who like led a hand, like gave me
Speaker 1: a hand up. And I'm really grateful for those people.
Speaker 1: And I'll speak so highly of Sue Christanthe and Rebecca
Speaker 1: Giles and Hamish McLaughlin and the girls that Swiss multivitamins
Speaker 1: like my management. I mean, like people stepped up, Like
Speaker 1: when I was lost, right, and there was a lot
Speaker 1: of people who did it. It was a pretty hectic experience.
Speaker 1: And I get it. The world we live in, it's
Speaker 1: like this cancel culture. But how I've always is like
Speaker 1: Peter Bowl, prime example. We went through Peter Bowl, the
Speaker 1: ade of Ameter Runner, who went through that drug doping
Speaker 1: situation where he was falsely accused of drug doping, but
Speaker 1: he was like accused for a long period of time, right,
Speaker 1: And I messaged him because Peter Bowl has always been
Speaker 1: a bloody legend to me always. I do not agree
Speaker 1: with drug cheating. I'm like so against it, like morally
Speaker 1: it's not okay. But he has treated me with respect
Speaker 1: and dignity. And when he was going through that, I
Speaker 1: messaged him saying, mate, I'm always here for you, call
Speaker 1: if you need anything, because he has been good to me, right,
Speaker 1: And I try and base people on that. It's like
Speaker 1: whatever comes out about them, I have no idea. I
Speaker 1: don't know what's right. Obviously got proven to be false,
Speaker 1: you mean, but it's like they treat you with respect
Speaker 1: it's like we should be judging people on that, not
Speaker 1: this public stuff, because this cancel culture is just like toxic,
Speaker 1: it's like gossip, Like it's so just like, oh, trashy.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that when a story like that comes out,
Speaker 2: and for you, it was being accused of domestic violence,
Speaker 2: which for a man in the public.
Speaker 3: Eye is the worst thing that you can be accused of.
Speaker 2: And I can imagine for someone like you, who is
Speaker 2: incredibly respectful and incredibly you've always been very open about
Speaker 2: embracing femininity and just not being that kind of man,
Speaker 2: I can imagine that was a really frustrating, hurtful experience
Speaker 2: in that moment. Did people come to you and ask
Speaker 2: if you did it? And how did that feel?
Speaker 1: To be honest, Like, I don't know, I kind of
Speaker 1: would have respected someone if they did. Yeah, yeah, because absolutely,
Speaker 1: like you should ask that question. I think if I
Speaker 1: remember correctly, like it was kind of a blow that period,
Speaker 1: But I don't think it happened that often, Like I
Speaker 1: can't remember any specific moments. But it's like, I don't
Speaker 1: know many people like want to front up and have
Speaker 1: that uncomfortable conversation, like and I would kind of respect
Speaker 1: it if they did. Absolutely. If someone come to come
Speaker 1: the pub and said you can write comments online, like yeah,
Speaker 1: you're real tough doing that. It's like if someone comment
Speaker 1: through the publem was like hey, like push me or
Speaker 1: something like that, It's like I would kind of respect that, right,
Speaker 1: It's like yeah, because those charges are so hectic, so hectic,
Speaker 1: but it didn't happen. No.
Speaker 2: No, in terms of the people who you say kind
Speaker 2: of showed their true colors and maybe didn't reach out
Speaker 2: or it's weird. When you're a public figure, it's almost
Speaker 2: like there are two versions of you. There's like the human,
Speaker 2: actual version of you that people know and get to
Speaker 2: be with, and then there's the version of you that's
Speaker 2: in the daily mail and in the newspaper. And clearly
Speaker 2: they get conflated sometimes, and for some people it probably
Speaker 2: was that they just went, oh, he did this, and
Speaker 2: then their minds turned off once the charges were withdrawn
Speaker 2: and it was incredibly clear that this never happened. Did
Speaker 2: people come out of the woodwork, Did people kind of
Speaker 2: come to you like people who had disappeared when the
Speaker 2: charges came out?
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, definitely a couple. It's part of the world
Speaker 1: we live in, right, now, But and I also know,
Speaker 1: like for myself, I stop being so self centered and narcissistic,
Speaker 1: Like people have their own problems in life, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know people's situations, so I can sit here at
Speaker 1: absolutely critique. And there was some really hurtful ones, right
Speaker 1: that turned their back of me when I thought that
Speaker 1: we were like good mates. But it's also like I
Speaker 1: don't know their reality, right, I don't know what they
Speaker 1: were going through. I don't know what they could have
Speaker 1: been an experience with something in that, so I try
Speaker 1: my best not to sit in that like resentful spitefulness,
Speaker 1: Like I know, I just find that quite ugly for myself.
Speaker 1: But of course, like I don't know if you can
Speaker 1: ever fully be like oh yeah, no, worries may whatever,
Speaker 1: like it's like you remember, like it's like forgive but
Speaker 1: never forget type situations. So I the whole situation, like
Speaker 1: my circle got way smaller, and I'm really grateful for that.
Speaker 1: Like I spent my whole childhood sort of searching for
Speaker 1: like heaps of friends, but it's like my quality of
Speaker 1: friends right now is so strong, and I'm really grateful
Speaker 1: for that. And the circle is very small in the
Speaker 1: Sanctum is very small, and I'm extremely grateful for that.
Speaker 2: When you got famous, did you find that that there
Speaker 2: were people who tried to latch onto you? Like with fame,
Speaker 2: does it change the nature of your relationships?
Speaker 1: Oh, that's why I probably realized that the most in dating. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's like it's my own inner belief. It's like
Speaker 1: they like the they love or like the idea of me,
Speaker 1: not actually me. And I understand that's my own story
Speaker 1: of like that inferiority complex whatever, but it's like I
Speaker 1: very much do feel that. So it's like it takes
Speaker 1: a decent amount of time for me to break free
Speaker 1: of that. And I always try and listen to my
Speaker 1: guard my intuition, Like you can kind of tell someone's
Speaker 1: intentions pretty quick most of the time if you're paying attention.
Speaker 1: So in saying that, I've been very wrong a number
Speaker 1: of times too, So it's just part of it, part
Speaker 1: of the nature. Like I always try my best to
Speaker 1: be as genuine as I can, and you can kind
Speaker 1: of read like sometimes you can't help if you don't
Speaker 1: like someone, like you just don't get around them. But
Speaker 1: there's so many good people in this world, and I've
Speaker 1: met so many people since I got like a little
Speaker 1: bit of public knowledge. So and I'm really grateful for
Speaker 1: those people.
Speaker 2: Now looking back at the allegations and the arrest.
Speaker 1: Are you angry, Nah, it was the best thing that
Speaker 1: happened to me. So you learn the most. Of course,
Speaker 1: I don't like saying this, because you learn something from
Speaker 1: every situation. You learn something when you win, you learn
Speaker 1: something when you succeed, But it is true we learn
Speaker 1: way more when we don't succeed or when life really
Speaker 1: knocks us down. And for me, that was like soul shattering.
Speaker 1: And I'm yeah, I'm not angry. I'm not resentful what
Speaker 1: I've moved on, and I know, I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: just focusing on my goals my ambitions now and I've
Speaker 1: got a new partner and I'm really happy in that,
Speaker 1: and like, I think that's the most important thing. I
Speaker 1: never wanted that situation to take away from my ability
Speaker 1: to love, because love is the most pure and genuine thing.
Speaker 1: And I love when I share my life with someone
Speaker 1: and you want to tell them about your best moments
Speaker 1: and your worst moments, and you want to hear theirs like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's what we live for. We are social animals. And
Speaker 1: I'm really grateful for that, so I'm not angry at all.
Speaker 2: More of my conversation Harry Garside after this short break.
Speaker 2: You have a line in your book that really stuck
Speaker 2: with me, and it's anger is just sadness suppressed. And
Speaker 2: I thought it was really profound, particularly when it comes
Speaker 2: to men and mental health. When you look at the
Speaker 2: men around you who fit that stereotype of being angry,
Speaker 2: and I think we all know men like that. Do
Speaker 2: you think deep down they're sad? And what do you
Speaker 2: think is making men sad?
Speaker 1: So I've thought about this so much, and I obviously
Speaker 1: can only speak for the males in my environment, but
Speaker 1: I think I've met a number of men, especially being
Speaker 1: in a sport like boxing, and I think the biggest
Speaker 1: thing I reckon men search for is acknowledgment and respect.
Speaker 1: I don't know what your relationship's like with your dad
Speaker 1: or if you have a partner, I'm not too sure,
Speaker 1: but it's like, if you really pay attention to them.
Speaker 1: All the men in my life they do this weird
Speaker 1: acts of service when no one's looking like my dad,
Speaker 1: I'll go down to Melbourne and the car will be
Speaker 1: clean and it'll be full of fuel right, doesn't say
Speaker 1: a thing, doesn't do anything, and it's acts of service.
Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing they're searching for is acknowledgment.
Speaker 1: And so often we just like overlook men. Right. It's
Speaker 1: like when the boat's thinking, who do we take care of?
Speaker 1: Which we should is kids and women, right, And it's
Speaker 1: male's duty. That's like a man's role. And I love that.
Speaker 1: But I think in a society we live in now,
Speaker 1: it's like, I think men just are searching for a
Speaker 1: little bit of respect and acknowledgment. And in that it's
Speaker 1: like I think a lot of their sadness may dissipate
Speaker 1: a little bit potentially. I'm not sure. I'm not like
Speaker 1: a psychologist. I don't have the rules of the universe,
Speaker 1: but like, I think it would really help.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's something about feeling a bit invisible.
Speaker 2: And my husband and I have a little eight month
Speaker 2: old daughter, and so it's always about like I'm doing
Speaker 2: this and you're doing this. And I've realized that he
Speaker 2: does a whole lot of things that I don't see
Speaker 2: and it's really easy for me to say, but I'm
Speaker 2: feeding the baby and I'm getting up at night and
Speaker 2: that sort of thing, and he will have a huge
Speaker 2: list of exactly what you say, acts of service that
Speaker 2: I don't acknowledge. And I think it is that thing
Speaker 2: of wanting to be seen and acknowledged and respected. My
Speaker 2: dad is exactly the same. You say you hate the
Speaker 2: term toxic masculinity.
Speaker 3: Why is that?
Speaker 1: I think when it started it was quite pure, But
Speaker 1: I just think it's been used in a really bad way.
Speaker 1: And I think any platform, any podcasts, any place in
Speaker 1: society that is putting men against women is toxic in itself.
Speaker 1: Like we need each other, like that's how we were animals, right,
Speaker 1: Like we need each other just as much as it's like,
Speaker 1: and I think absolutely there is things that we need
Speaker 1: to reflect on about the male culture. It is negative
Speaker 1: for sure. And I noticed this, Like when I'm in
Speaker 1: in a male environment where I say, there's a group
Speaker 1: of ten boys, I noticed that I start acting a
Speaker 1: little bit different and the jokes are a little bit different, right,
Speaker 1: And it's like, I do notice that. That's so, I mean,
Speaker 1: do we need to reflect on Like we don't talk
Speaker 1: about deep stuff. We're always taking the piss out of
Speaker 1: each other, Like, but there is also so many beautiful
Speaker 1: things about masculinity. I'm sure you've saw that with your
Speaker 1: dad and your partner and other male figures in your life.
Speaker 1: And I just think that any platform in our society
Speaker 1: that is putting men against women or vice versa is
Speaker 1: toxic in itself, and I think we need to work
Speaker 1: together to get to a better position.
Speaker 2: You also talk a lot about men and mental health.
Speaker 2: What do you think is the difference, for example, when
Speaker 2: you have struggled with your mental health. We know that
Speaker 2: suicide rates, for example, are really high among men. What
Speaker 2: do you think it is that makes mental health issues
Speaker 2: among men particularly scary and severe.
Speaker 1: I personally think like men want to feel capable and
Speaker 1: like they have a job. It's like I have beans
Speaker 1: for many men in my life and like say call
Speaker 1: my day's Yeah, what are you doing this week? I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to look for a car. It's like
Speaker 1: here will go that night and like find eight cars
Speaker 1: in my local area.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's just like that type of person. It's
Speaker 1: just like they want to feel capable, they want to
Speaker 1: feel needed, right, And I think that is actually biologically
Speaker 1: in most masculine people, whether it be male or female.
Speaker 1: But it's like they want to feel capable, they want
Speaker 1: to feel needed, And I think in a society, it's
Speaker 1: like the generations before us right have just kind of
Speaker 1: created a world that's like almost in Western world, it's
Speaker 1: like almost perfect. It's like, yes, there is so many
Speaker 1: things that we can evolve and get better at. But
Speaker 1: it's like if you're born in Australia in the top
Speaker 1: three percent of the wealth in the world, it's like
Speaker 1: we're not really struggling. Like I've lived overseas, I've lived
Speaker 1: in poverty stricken countries and I've seen that there it's
Speaker 1: like real struggle. But I think the world we live
Speaker 1: in right now is just like it's almost really good.
Speaker 1: The fact that we don't need that masculine energy, whether
Speaker 1: it be man or woman as much anymore, Like we
Speaker 1: don't have fires, we don't have as much war or anger.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's a weird thing. I just think
Speaker 1: in that a lot of men are feeling loss, and
Speaker 1: it is up to I want to say this, it
Speaker 1: is up to men as well to make sure they
Speaker 1: recognize this and go, Okay, I need to go to
Speaker 1: the gym more often. I need to find something where
Speaker 1: I feel strong and capable. I want to start at
Speaker 1: Brazil and jiu jitsu. I want to do something where
Speaker 1: I feel strong, I feel capable, and it feeds that
Speaker 1: thing inside of us, right, and then in that maybe
Speaker 1: they feel more secure. But at the moment, it's just
Speaker 1: like they're probably sitting behind a TV and just like
Speaker 1: watching like terrible like and they're feeling like unheard and
Speaker 1: listen to it. It's like what are they actually doing
Speaker 1: to help themselves too? It's like a both society needs
Speaker 1: to help them and they need to help themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have a bit of an interesting kind of
Speaker 2: approach to that, where you have little challenges you do
Speaker 2: every month. I find this so inspiring and I really
Speaker 2: really want to do it. Can you explain what those
Speaker 2: challenges are and a few examples of once you've done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I originally started for an Olympic gold medal
Speaker 1: this start of twenty nineteen. So this month, which I'm
Speaker 1: currently doing right now, is the sixty eighth month in
Speaker 1: a row. I've done stuff like fifty hours no talking,
Speaker 1: public reading. I've begged for money, I've washed windows at
Speaker 1: lights if that's a really hard conversation, started ballet karaoke.
Speaker 1: Some are fun. Some are good. Improv class was a
Speaker 1: lot of fun. Yeah, some of fun, some are good.
Speaker 1: The one I'm doing this month is I'm living under
Speaker 1: the poverty line, so I'm living off for two hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty bucks for the week after rent and bills
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. So four hundred and eighty nine
Speaker 1: dollars in Australia is under the poverty line and I
Speaker 1: am living at two fifty after rent and bills, and
Speaker 1: it's thirty five dollars a day. So it's day two
Speaker 1: and it's been really interesting. Like yesterday I walked through
Speaker 1: Coals trying to find some dinner and it was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, Coals and Woolworths are absolutely ruining the
Speaker 1: hip hocket of our population, like it is wild. I
Speaker 1: couldn't get anything for like a decent amount, like so
Speaker 1: remember that five dollar meal? Remember that was it? That
Speaker 1: was it ten dollar meal or something like that? Feet family
Speaker 1: for ten dollars. Something that calls out is that you
Speaker 1: couldn't do that anymore. No, I could not do that.
Speaker 2: And sometimes when you're not conscious of it, it's almost invisible,
Speaker 2: like I'll just go to the tooth market and pick
Speaker 2: up what I need. Then when I scared everything, I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh Jesus Christ, I have no money and this is why.
Speaker 2: But when you're being fully intentional and looking at how
Speaker 2: do I have an affordable meal, it is terrifying. You
Speaker 2: talk about embracing your feminine energy and you paint your nails,
Speaker 2: and that's become like a bit of an iconic thing.
Speaker 2: What did it mean to you the first time you
Speaker 2: painted your nails? Because there's a bit of a story
Speaker 2: around it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So this youth organization, the Reach Foundation, they come
Speaker 1: to my school when I was sixteen and I was
Speaker 1: in this stage of like, I was having no success
Speaker 1: at boxing, and I was like, do I just start
Speaker 1: partying like all my mates and go down that path
Speaker 1: and leave school and become a trade And I only
Speaker 1: really stayed at school for boxing because it's really easy
Speaker 1: for your body. And they come to my school and
Speaker 1: I was having this like identity crisis and through the
Speaker 1: day it was actually all about challenging masculinity. Is probably
Speaker 1: the reason why was so like strong about it because
Speaker 1: of that day, right, And they gave me a space
Speaker 1: where I could delve into myself and actually see what
Speaker 1: I find because I felt like I played a role
Speaker 1: my whole life, and I was feeling misunderstood, but I
Speaker 1: didn't know who I was. So it's like, how can
Speaker 1: you show who you are if you don't know who
Speaker 1: you are?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: And I just went on this like and I'm still
Speaker 1: on it. I love it, Like iing on this like
Speaker 1: wild journey of actually trying to find out who I am. Right.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever fully find the answer,
Speaker 1: but I'm getting closer and closer each day. And in
Speaker 1: that day, it was obviously a very masculine environment. It
Speaker 1: was just males, and they spoke about men are always
Speaker 1: the ones like you see at parties jumping off the
Speaker 1: roof onto tables or fighting or like drinking the most.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like this competitive, highly competitive nature environment
Speaker 1: and it's just like often in that we do a
Speaker 1: lot of negative things. And I think that day was
Speaker 1: just all about challenging it. And one of the things
Speaker 1: was paint your nails. All the boys like, oh you
Speaker 1: imagine what six year boys are saying. And when you're
Speaker 1: painted your nails and you went out for lunch and
Speaker 1: then you come back, you realize that the world didn't
Speaker 1: finish and nothing change, right, nothing changed it's just this
Speaker 1: like belief that we choose to believe about well, how
Speaker 1: we have to act. And I'm really grateful for that day.
Speaker 1: And then I become a crew member and I guess
Speaker 1: the rest is history. And that really helps me out
Speaker 1: about building my emotional intelligence, which I'm so grateful.
Speaker 2: When you talk about having feminine energy, what does that
Speaker 2: look like to you?
Speaker 1: Feminine energy for me is the place that I go
Speaker 1: where I need to take care of myself. It's probably
Speaker 1: the place that I'm distracting myself from the most right now.
Speaker 1: It's in flow, it's care, it's just being in rhythm
Speaker 1: with yourself, being in sync. And I love that. I
Speaker 1: think pure feminine energy is like organic when I dance,
Speaker 1: I feel like that when I move my body, I'm
Speaker 1: in flow, I'm in rhythm. It's really nice. But it's
Speaker 1: also the space where I go and I need to
Speaker 1: let go. I think the masculine energy for history has
Speaker 1: been like you'd be strong, and like if you're in war,
Speaker 1: you don't talk about gees on my leg swords, like
Speaker 1: you keep going, you keep fighting. We need that we're ers,
Speaker 1: and I think we all have masculine and feminine inside
Speaker 1: of us. It's just up to us to ask ourself
Speaker 1: the question to see what energy we need most right now,
Speaker 1: and that will vary through our time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that idea of feminine energy is really
Speaker 2: you don't hear a lot of men acknowledging it, even
Speaker 2: though every man I know has clear different parts to
Speaker 2: them and even do things that YE are clearly leading
Speaker 2: into their feminine energy.
Speaker 1: Have you experienced this before? So I spoke to a
Speaker 1: lot of women in my life and they've said that
Speaker 1: like when they date a man, like the man would
Speaker 1: love like words of affirmation. It's just like men never
Speaker 1: it's like the acknowledgment right never. Really like men love
Speaker 1: when their partners saying all these nice things about what
Speaker 1: you say. It's like they want to hear it, right,
Speaker 1: And it's just like it's like a really interesting thing.
Speaker 1: And I think more men need to sort of just
Speaker 1: as create space and ask yourself the question. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that you need to paint your nails or like
Speaker 1: start dance or like wear a dress, like, just ask
Speaker 1: yourself what you need and it will vary throughout time,
Speaker 1: and create that space and try and give it to yourself.
Speaker 1: Like I think we need to take care of ourselves
Speaker 1: rather than focusing other things to take care of us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what currently day to day keeps you from happiness?
Speaker 2: Like what would you say is your biggest challenge to
Speaker 2: happiness At the moment, I.
Speaker 1: Think happiness is like a fleeting thing. It's like a
Speaker 1: weird myth that the Western civilization tells us, like we
Speaker 1: will be happy. Then it's like this, when I do this,
Speaker 1: then I will be happy. It's like that if and
Speaker 1: when mindset. But it's like some days are on I'm
Speaker 1: sure hormones for females play a massive role. Like I
Speaker 1: have been around many women in my life and you're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: it's coming. She hates me, hates me right now, But
Speaker 1: it's like it's just noticing, like some days are good,
Speaker 1: some days are bad. But I try my best to
Speaker 1: have more like consistent and happy life. And probably the
Speaker 1: thing that is shopping me from that is like it's
Speaker 1: like myself sometimes like how often do you like sacrifice
Speaker 1: like going to the gym, or sacrifice like seeing your friends,
Speaker 1: or sacrifice something for work, or like just really your
Speaker 1: prioritization list for me is the thing that will take
Speaker 1: away from my happiness at times yeah, yeah, So I
Speaker 1: think it's just like it's like knowing what really lights
Speaker 1: you up. It's like does work really light you up?
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, you probably need a work to put
Speaker 1: from the table, but it's like do you need to
Speaker 1: stay back here until seven thirty at night? Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: do you need to take that book home? Like do
Speaker 1: you really need to? Of course, we all need to
Speaker 1: progress in our career, but I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: that's probably the thing, is like the prioritization of other
Speaker 1: things rather than the things I really enjoy.
Speaker 2: And right now post Paris, post some really difficult times.
Speaker 2: But you know, also in the midst of having your
Speaker 2: book out and feeling like you have a lot to offer,
Speaker 2: would you say that right now you are happy?
Speaker 1: As I said, it's very fleeting. It's very fleeting. I
Speaker 1: feel like there's days where I wake up and I
Speaker 1: feel playful at the moment. I don't know. Do you
Speaker 1: ever see Kathy Freeman when she won that four unameter race,
Speaker 1: It was like relief? Yeah, right, it was relief. Like
Speaker 1: I love competing, I love fighting, I love like that
Speaker 1: primal energy that it brings out. I love chipping away
Speaker 1: at a goal for a year for twenty years, and
Speaker 1: I love that. It's great. But I also like there
Speaker 1: was moments in my preparation I was like, oh, I
Speaker 1: can't wait for this to be over. Yeah, when I
Speaker 1: was tired, I was really tired. I think in that
Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh, like my shoulders are down right now.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's I feel in that. It's like I
Speaker 1: feel playful in that I'm eating bad food. I'm also
Speaker 1: having a few drinks when I've never using a drinks.
Speaker 1: It's like my body is not feeling amazing, but my
Speaker 1: mind is quite strong right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, playful is an interesting word. I know exactly what
Speaker 2: you mean, and it is those moments in life where
Speaker 2: maybe you have been working really bloody hard on something
Speaker 2: and it's happened and there's no more you can do,
Speaker 2: and so you get to kind of just be in
Speaker 2: the moment and choose like hedonism and joy rather than
Speaker 2: putting all of.
Speaker 3: That aside for the big goal.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time today. It has
Speaker 2: been such a wonderful chat, and I think people will
Speaker 2: love what you've offered about failure and success and how
Speaker 2: it doesn't necessarily have any bearing on happiness.
Speaker 3: So I really appreciate your honesty.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, It's been absolute pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 2: I hope you took something from Harry about the significance
Speaker 2: and the utility of failure. Sitting with him, I was
Speaker 2: struck by the fact that while so many of us
Speaker 2: chase external achievement, it isn't medals or awards or any
Speaker 2: kind of metrics that I loved ones will remember us for,
Speaker 2: and it's not any of those things that actually make
Speaker 2: us happy. I want to thank Harry for being so
Speaker 2: open and for sharing himself with us. And if you
Speaker 2: want more from Harry, you can buy his book The
Speaker 2: Good Fight at any good bookstore. Harry also spoke in
Speaker 2: this episode about how much breath work helped him, and
Speaker 2: if you're interested in breath work and you don't know
Speaker 2: how to start, the move by Mummeya team has made
Speaker 2: a free quiz to help you find the right meditation
Speaker 2: for your day, your life, your needs. There's an entire
Speaker 2: hi a collection of gentle mindfulness sessions over on move
Speaker 2: mum MEA's exercise app. If you want a personalized recommendation,
Speaker 2: head to the link in the show notes and take
Speaker 2: the quiz to find your Meditation Match And if you
Speaker 2: want to recommend anyone for the show, you can always
Speaker 2: message me on Instagram. And if you like the show,
Speaker 2: leave us a review. We always love your feedback. The
Speaker 2: executive producer of But Are You Happy? Is Niama Brown
Speaker 2: and the producer is Charlie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott
Speaker 2: Stronik and I'm your host, Claire Stevens.
Speaker 3: We'll see you next week.