Speaker 1: I still can't believe I had the audacity to say
Speaker 1: I've written this role for Eryl, and then getting that
Speaker 1: text that said, we've got you, Meryl, you're a bit witchy. Well,
Speaker 1: we'll see if we can get Timothy Shallimey for my daughter.
Speaker 2: Hello. I'm Katelinebrook, host of No Filter. Today's guest is
Speaker 2: someone many of you will already feel like you know,
Speaker 2: even if you've never met her, because she's spent decades
Speaker 2: writing your inner life back to you. Leanne Moriarty. Leanne
Speaker 2: is the author behind Big Little Lies, Nine Perfect Strangers,
Speaker 2: Apples Never Fall, and now Big Little Truths, her first
Speaker 2: ever sequel, returning to the world and characters that made
Speaker 2: her a household name. Leanne and I go a fair
Speaker 2: way back, and in this conversation we get into everything
Speaker 2: how she actually writes a book, the terror of returning
Speaker 2: to characters people already love and know what it was
Speaker 2: like watch Nicole Kidman, Reese Witherspoon, and Meryl Streep step
Speaker 2: into roles she wrote in her head first, and the strange,
Speaker 2: very specific pressure of writing a sequel everyone has been
Speaker 2: demanding for years. We also talk about family. Leanne is
Speaker 2: one of three sisters who all became authors, her own
Speaker 2: breast cancer, scare, marriage, motherhood, teenagers, turning sixty and why
Speaker 2: after everything, she still can't stop herself imagining what the
Speaker 2: critics might say before she's even finished a page. It's
Speaker 2: funny and candid and full of the kind of detail
Speaker 2: only Leanne Moriarty could give you. This is Leanne Moriarty
Speaker 2: on No Filter. Leanne Moriarty, Welcome to No Filter. Thank you, Kate.
Speaker 2: Now you just made me laughing for what we were
Speaker 2: talking about previous podcasts that I've done with another writer,
Speaker 2: and you said, I don't want to say anything interating,
Speaker 2: you don't want to reveal anything about yourself.
Speaker 1: I just don't want to wake up in the middle
Speaker 1: of the night with that feeling sick, as if as
Speaker 1: if I'd got drunk at a dinner party too much.
Speaker 1: And because I do, I want to chat with you.
Speaker 1: But then in the middle of the night, I think,
Speaker 1: why would you think that people would even care about that?
Speaker 2: But people do because you have been instrumental in creating
Speaker 2: so many worlds for people that are so richly inhabited
Speaker 2: that it's natural for people to want to know where
Speaker 2: it comes from.
Speaker 1: Yes, I know, and I know that. Actually, I was
Speaker 1: telling somebody the story yesterday of one of my favorite
Speaker 1: authors is Elizabeth bergh Right, and she's an American author.
Speaker 1: And I was once picked up at the airport. They
Speaker 1: have these people in America who escort you around when
Speaker 1: you're on book tour. There always, and they always want
Speaker 1: to take you to lunch because then they can put
Speaker 1: that on their expenses. Yes, and you don't want to
Speaker 1: go to lunch because you're feeling nervous about the event
Speaker 1: that you want to go to.
Speaker 2: Anyway, this man he.
Speaker 1: Picked me up and he mentioned his partner was Elizabeth Burke,
Speaker 1: and I was so excited. And then I said, I
Speaker 1: love her. And then he said, well, we can go
Speaker 1: and pick her up right now. And then I said,
Speaker 1: this is a part I can't believe that. I said,
Speaker 1: I said, do you think I could see her kitchen?
Speaker 1: I don't know, And I'm not the sort of person
Speaker 1: who would say that, but it's because she writes so
Speaker 1: beautifully about domestic life, and I had a vision in
Speaker 1: my head of what her kitchen would look like. And
Speaker 1: he said, no, you can't. I think he said it
Speaker 1: was very nice. And then yet then anyway, then there
Speaker 1: was this thing with me wanting to put her in
Speaker 1: the front seat because she she so you stopped, did
Speaker 1: get her?
Speaker 2: Did he call her? Did you hear the call? Yes?
Speaker 1: And she was saying sure, and then and then I
Speaker 1: was saying, well, I'll get out because she's got to
Speaker 1: sit in the front, and he was saying no, no,
Speaker 1: you stay in the front. And then we stopped. And
Speaker 1: I was so determined that she would get in the
Speaker 1: front that I threw myself out of the car.
Speaker 2: Uh. But we weren't there yet. We just stopped at.
Speaker 1: Her, just get back in, and I stayed in the
Speaker 1: front seat. But so I do understand, I I yeah,
Speaker 1: I wanted to see Elizabeth Berg's kitchen.
Speaker 2: All right, So Leanne moriarty, we want to see your kitchen.
Speaker 2: About that, to see your bathroom, We want to see
Speaker 2: your bedroom. You know a lot about the bedroom because
Speaker 2: it's not enough sex. Well books, Okay, so because these
Speaker 2: open door and closed door, which is a very interesting
Speaker 2: thing I've only recently learned about publishing. What do you mean, Well,
Speaker 2: so in a sex scene, Oh, okay, that either it's
Speaker 2: open door, which is where you basically see everything, you're
Speaker 2: treated to everything that's going on, or it's closed door,
Speaker 2: they kiss, then they wake up the next morning and
Speaker 2: the curtains. Yes, I have never heard that before. Yes,
Speaker 2: someone closed door, you're very closed door. Well, but you
Speaker 2: give a lot of hints about what's happened.
Speaker 1: Well, I remember in hre one moment I said something
Speaker 1: about them having astonishing sex, and then a reviewer said
Speaker 1: that it's described as astonishing sex, but you never see that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I thought, well, I feel like everybody can have
Speaker 1: their own version of astonishing.
Speaker 2: And I couldn't do it. I could not do it. Okay, well,
Speaker 2: look what I have here. This was such a thrill.
Speaker 2: This is Big Little Truths. There's another book you might
Speaker 2: have heard of it called Big Little Lies, right, and
Speaker 2: this came this is a sequel to that, So your
Speaker 2: first sequel. It came in brilliant, like brilliant, the most
Speaker 2: brilliant packaging, with the little zipper that you aren't to dover,
Speaker 2: and then you're one rappish and to take people back
Speaker 2: into a world that you've created. But that means a
Speaker 2: lot to people is fraught with I imagine all sorts
Speaker 2: of terrorists, which is probably why I've never done it before.
Speaker 2: And why did you do it?
Speaker 1: I did it because everybody was asking about I have
Speaker 1: to admit it was in a large part because people
Speaker 1: were asking about a new season of Big Little Lives.
Speaker 1: And so if they were going to do it anyway
Speaker 1: without me, then I'd rather they did it.
Speaker 2: Oh, they couldn't do it without you. Oh they could,
Speaker 2: could they? Yeah?
Speaker 1: They were allowed to for sure, so they could. And
Speaker 1: then I had also thought because Big Little Lies was
Speaker 1: I wrote it when my children were little, starting school,
Speaker 1: And then I had started to think over the years
Speaker 1: that because I had my children quite late in life,
Speaker 1: so my girlfriends are all a little bit ahead of me,
Speaker 1: and I was thinking that when the teenage years come,
Speaker 1: it feels like there could be a lot of material
Speaker 1: for me, which there is.
Speaker 2: Which there is. Yeah, but I say it's fraught with
Speaker 2: terrors because all of us, I think, have been scarred
Speaker 2: by and just like that, Oh okay, but you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. But I liked and just like that,
Speaker 2: is it? Well? Good, I'm happy for you. I'm very
Speaker 2: happy for you. I was just happy to see them again.
Speaker 2: They too, friends, But sometimes you were like, oh I
Speaker 2: know they were friends, Oh no, friends, Like I know,
Speaker 2: there were things, but it was almost I didn't care
Speaker 2: because I was just so happy to see them.
Speaker 1: But yes, it's fraught. I'm glad you didn't say that
Speaker 1: to me before I started writing.
Speaker 2: A little Well, no, because but no one puts more
Speaker 2: pressure on you than you put on I know, I know.
Speaker 2: And when something's been so deeply and irrevocably loved and
Speaker 2: around the world and it's drawn the attention of you know,
Speaker 2: Reese Witherspoon and Nicole Kidman and they're actually publicly lobbying
Speaker 2: for you to write the sequel, yes, that's an enormous
Speaker 2: amount of pressure.
Speaker 1: And what's really for is that people are seeing they're
Speaker 1: seeing Reese Witherspoon in their mind's eye, or some people are.
Speaker 1: And I'm so when I was writing it, I could
Speaker 1: see my version of Madeline, and I could see Reese's
Speaker 1: version of Madeline. And I know even my editor at
Speaker 1: one point she was writing a blurb and she wrote
Speaker 1: Madeleine Madeline Celeste and then she said something about Zoe and.
Speaker 3: I said, you you were so clearly seeing Zoe in
Speaker 3: your mind's eye, Zoe kraviatz In when you were reading it.
Speaker 2: Because now it's it's such a balancing feast because you're
Speaker 2: balancing the characters as they originally were. You're holding them.
Speaker 2: We also now know from the dramatization of it, we do.
Speaker 2: We know Rees with a spoon, and we know Nicole,
Speaker 2: we know Zowe. Yes, yeah, how did you separate them?
Speaker 2: So I, in your you write a really lovely prologue
Speaker 2: where you explain, which is brilliant, that what you have
Speaker 2: written is the sequel to the book.
Speaker 1: It has to follow on from the book. But sometimes
Speaker 1: that was tricky. So for example, even I had forgotten
Speaker 1: that Madeline had another child called Fred. Right, so I
Speaker 1: was an older and in.
Speaker 2: America, and I'll just send you off to America. Well,
Speaker 2: for a while, I was thinking, I just put him
Speaker 2: in his bedroom, right, I was thinking I could even
Speaker 2: be quite metter and have somebody saying it's like Fred
Speaker 2: doesn't even exist because he's playing.
Speaker 1: Video games all day. And there were a lot of
Speaker 1: little things like that. So, for example, the character of
Speaker 1: merryl I didn't see the character of Mary Louise who
Speaker 1: because she was not in the first book and I
Speaker 1: created her. So when I was writing Mary Louise, I
Speaker 1: was completely seeing Meryl Stretreet. But also I had thought
Speaker 1: I didn't name Perry's mother in the first book, so
Speaker 1: I was safe to call her Mary Louise, who I
Speaker 1: had named myself anyway for season two, so I felt
Speaker 1: I owned her. But then I suddenly found that I
Speaker 1: had actually named I had said Perry's mother was a twin,
Speaker 1: so there was actually she could have been Gene or
Speaker 1: something else. So then I had to write a little
Speaker 1: strange explanation for why she's now Mary Lais, and it
Speaker 1: sort of worked. But I remember my editor writing, oh,
Speaker 1: this is fun, but do.
Speaker 2: We need it?
Speaker 1: And we do need it. And because readers are amazing,
Speaker 1: readers will find will find things.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and then I love it because.
Speaker 1: They say to you, but why why is this? And
Speaker 1: and they're not they're not complaining. They really want to know,
Speaker 1: tell me as if it's real, and so I don't
Speaker 1: want If you find something that's not quite right, then
Speaker 1: you can no longer suspend disbelief because now you realize
Speaker 1: somebody just wrote this, so you can't ye, so everything
Speaker 1: has That's why when readers say, well, these flowers don't
Speaker 1: grow at this time of year, and say, I know
Speaker 1: my mother told me that. They were saying, but why
Speaker 1: as if I need to give an explanation.
Speaker 2: They're flowers? That did you with flowers here? What were
Speaker 2: the flowers? I'm sweet peas, I think, yeah, And then
Speaker 2: I really need to read your books because that she
Speaker 2: would pick up for And so when you so, when
Speaker 2: was was there a moment where you decided to enter
Speaker 2: back into the into the world.
Speaker 1: Yes, there was a moment because I had actually started
Speaker 1: writing another book with a storyline that's significant in this book.
Speaker 1: So oh so we agreed it's okay for spoilers. So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's okay for spoiler. So there is the history teacher
Speaker 1: in this book, and I had I had that concept
Speaker 1: because I was sort of obsessed by a high profile
Speaker 1: story in the papers, and so I wanted to explore
Speaker 1: the motivations of sort of a villain. And I won't
Speaker 1: say what the story is, but creditory predatory villain.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's good not to say, because I
Speaker 2: was remember Matt Damon and Ben Affleck getting into a
Speaker 2: lot of trouble when they did that movie. Oh and
Speaker 2: they were inspired by.
Speaker 1: Goodwill Hunting No No No, by Amanda Knox. Oh sorry,
Speaker 1: it wasn't Ben, it was just Matt. Okay, and she
Speaker 1: was really offended. But and I sort of thought, oh,
Speaker 1: I can understand though. For them, it's just an interesting
Speaker 1: news story and that gives you a fictional idea at
Speaker 1: a launching place, Yes, exactly. And so I could have
Speaker 1: said that about some other things where I thought, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm not never going to say that because it's people's
Speaker 1: real lives, whereas I've just read about it, and.
Speaker 2: They were, oh, heal, yes and fascinating. You can explore terrain, yes,
Speaker 2: if it's not necessarily cemented into the grim reality of
Speaker 2: the earth.
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly right. So I had this idea, and I
Speaker 1: had started. I think I'd written about two chapters set
Speaker 1: in a high school, and then there was all the
Speaker 1: talk of really, we really do want to season three,
Speaker 1: and then I suddenly thought, well, I had always said
Speaker 1: I could write about the kids when they were teenagers.
Speaker 1: I could make this storyline happen to some of my
Speaker 1: bigger class.
Speaker 2: And how had they lived with you? The characters in
Speaker 2: that time, like we was Celested always with you, it
Speaker 2: was Madeline always with.
Speaker 1: You, except I was writing new books. I let them go.
Speaker 1: So I was filled with joy from Apple's Never Fall,
Speaker 1: and then all my characters from here one moment so yes,
Speaker 1: So no, I don't think, no, they weren't. Really they
Speaker 1: were because all my characters then I put them, I
Speaker 1: put them away, and I might sometimes think, oh, I
Speaker 1: wonder what happened to so and so. But especially when
Speaker 1: I'm writing a new book, I'm completely absorbed with the new.
Speaker 2: People because it almost feels like there should be a
Speaker 2: some sort of formal ceremony. But don't you think to
Speaker 2: bid them say goodbye? Yes?
Speaker 1: Well, I always say when I'm writing a new book,
Speaker 1: I miss my old characters because they've become so easy
Speaker 1: to write by the time that I finish it. And
Speaker 1: so I don't like my new characters because I'm getting
Speaker 1: to know them and I don't ask how they talk yet.
Speaker 1: But yes, that's true, there could be a little ceremony.
Speaker 1: But to be honest, by the time I finished writing
Speaker 1: a book, I sort of hate the whole thing. I
Speaker 1: can't bear to see another word.
Speaker 2: And yet you continue to challenge yourself.
Speaker 1: This was Yes, this was a real challenge with them
Speaker 1: because what I realized was that they by doing this.
Speaker 1: So I had my high school storyline, but then I
Speaker 1: had all my characters had these really complicated backstories that
Speaker 1: I had created for Big Little Lies, So I felt
Speaker 1: like they were all dragging these backstories along with them
Speaker 1: that and I wanted the sequel to stand on its own,
Speaker 1: because I think that's really important. If it's been ages
Speaker 1: since you've read them.
Speaker 2: You actually say that in the book that if you
Speaker 2: haven't read Big Little Lie, yes, it doesn't matter. It
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. If you've read it and you can't remember it, it.
Speaker 1: Doesn't okay too, But that was hard to do that
Speaker 1: because you want to sort of refer to things that
Speaker 1: had happened in their lives without and in a natural way,
Speaker 1: not begin with and sons who push somebody off a balcony.
Speaker 1: Yes it has her friend they share. You know, it's
Speaker 1: almost to be embarrassing because the storylines sound a bit
Speaker 1: soap oprouche. Yes exactly, but it's like if it's like
Speaker 1: you're dating someone new again. And I always think one
Speaker 1: of the most terrible things about that is having to.
Speaker 2: Explain yourself, yes, and all the relationships and whatever the
Speaker 2: means and what happens.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's true, and so yeah, that's right. People
Speaker 1: could have just as complicated backstories. But although this is
Speaker 1: pretty rare that.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's because it's fiction, a murder, and then
Speaker 2: that there's a severed finger in a box in a
Speaker 2: new school, which is also not a spoiler because it
Speaker 2: happens at the very start and it's exactly sort of
Speaker 2: the premise of the yes of the book. And so
Speaker 2: when you start to recreate that world and then move
Speaker 2: the story forward, what does that process look like for you?
Speaker 2: Is it a are you sitting down with character notes?
Speaker 4: Is it?
Speaker 2: Is it more plot driven?
Speaker 1: It's nah, it's neither. Really, I am I always Well,
Speaker 1: my normal process with the new book is to buy
Speaker 1: a really beautiful notebook, a hardcover moll skin. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: it's just got to be expensive. And then I like
Speaker 1: to start to write a few notes. So I did
Speaker 1: post on Instagram some of the I found some of
Speaker 1: the old notes when I was starting to write big
Speaker 1: little lies, and I wrote I did write the word
Speaker 1: licee whares. And then somebody put in the comments, Okay,
Speaker 1: I thank you. Yes, I know it's not nice. So
Speaker 1: normally yeah, I do, but but I never then do
Speaker 1: the whole plan. So my sister Jackie, because she's an
Speaker 1: author two and her pres exactly yes, and her process,
Speaker 1: and she has an amazing book I'm called time Travel
Speaker 1: for Beginners, which everybody is going to adore because I
Speaker 1: love time travel, and I guess she has to because
Speaker 1: and that's why I've never written a time travel book,
Speaker 1: because of the logistics of it. Right, So she plans everything,
Speaker 1: and I always think, maybe I'll start to I'll do
Speaker 1: a proper plan, but I can't stand it. So I
Speaker 1: write a few little notes maybe this will happen, maybe this,
Speaker 1: maybe that, and then I just have to start writing.
Speaker 1: So I just have to say chapter one as if
Speaker 1: it's from the beginning and you write chronologically. I do,
Speaker 1: but I always want to make it clear that it's
Speaker 1: not like some of those authors who say it all
Speaker 1: just comes into their head perfectly sounding a little bit,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't because I'm working it out as I go. Ah,
Speaker 1: so your problem solving. Yes, yes, that's right. And so
Speaker 1: I always have this separate document called things I need
Speaker 1: to fix because as I'm working out. As a result
Speaker 1: of this decision, now I'm going to have to go
Speaker 1: back and change.
Speaker 2: Is exactly. So you mentioned your sister Jacqueline, and you've
Speaker 2: also got Nikolay is also an author. She is, yes,
Speaker 2: and there are four girls in your family. And two boys.
Speaker 1: No, five, five girls, one boy.
Speaker 2: Three of the five of you are authors. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: it's just let's just work out how that happened.
Speaker 1: But I think it's well, you know, it's like the
Speaker 1: tennis players and like yes, families. And I also think
Speaker 1: whenever anybody writes a book, there's sort of a ripple
Speaker 1: effect because then people think, oh, actually you can do that,
Speaker 1: it's real. And so Jackie started the ripple effect because
Speaker 1: they're not filled with envy and so and then it
Speaker 1: seems like something you could do.
Speaker 2: And so your first book that you wrote was a
Speaker 2: children's book. Oh I tried, Yes, that that was probably.
Speaker 1: Yes, the the Animal Olympics. It was right, and still
Speaker 1: has not been has been published. And have you looked
Speaker 1: at it?
Speaker 2: No, I don't even know where do you think it
Speaker 2: should should have been published? I thought, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I thought it was fun.
Speaker 1: So it was around the year two thousand, so it
Speaker 1: was sort of it was before the year two thousand
Speaker 1: because I was inspired by the Sydney Olympics, and I
Speaker 1: was interested in all the animals that would would win
Speaker 1: the Olympics. So for example, the flea would win the
Speaker 1: high jump and things like that.
Speaker 2: Not the life, not the nice. Yeah, I'll be back
Speaker 2: with Leon after this short break. When your younger sister
Speaker 2: got her the first publishing deal and you said it
Speaker 2: unlocked in you this envy, what life were you living
Speaker 2: prior to that point?
Speaker 1: I was an advertising copywriter, so I was working for myself,
Speaker 1: and I had over the years written a few first
Speaker 1: chapters of books that hadn't gone anywhere. And I had
Speaker 1: also written a children's book for my younger sister, Nicola,
Speaker 1: for her tenth birthday when I was so she's fifteen
Speaker 1: years younger than me, so I was twenty five, and
Speaker 1: so that was the only thing I'd actually finished because
Speaker 1: it was a gift for her. And so that did
Speaker 1: get published eventually. So that was called the Petrophone problem
Speaker 1: with Princess Petronella. So that's the only thing I finished.
Speaker 1: And so yes, it wasn't until Jackie did it. And
Speaker 1: we'd always said when we were little that we wanted
Speaker 1: to write books.
Speaker 2: And your father had encouraged you by you a dollar. Yes,
Speaker 2: he said, I'll give you your first publishing deals, right,
Speaker 2: and he did. And who was the most prolific thing
Speaker 2: when you were incentivized with a dollar Finnish manuscript.
Speaker 1: I don't know, actually, I mean it was only for
Speaker 1: a short It definitely happened. It sort of became part
Speaker 1: of our origin story as if he did it for
Speaker 1: years and years. I think we probably only just both
Speaker 1: of us wrote a couple of stories and then we
Speaker 1: moved on with our lives. And I've definitely still got
Speaker 1: volume two of the Secret of dead Man's Island?
Speaker 2: What was it? The secret?
Speaker 1: That was because it was really inspired by Anna Blaton.
Speaker 1: A lot of smuggling, and I didn't really know what smuggling.
Speaker 2: Smugglers and they were always on the coast of corn Water, yes.
Speaker 1: Which I've been to now week to Cornwall. Because I
Speaker 1: was so obsessed with with Enna Blaton. The children found
Speaker 1: it the most boring holiday they've ever had.
Speaker 2: What what was it that spoke to you about Enid Blyton?
Speaker 2: I think?
Speaker 1: But why children always loved Anna Blaton was because she
Speaker 1: always had the adults out of the way and then
Speaker 1: they had these amazing adventures.
Speaker 2: The fantastic the famous Five Secret seven, and also because
Speaker 2: she was such a beautiful writer in terms of evoking
Speaker 2: what what the kids ate? Yes?
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, there's a lot of food, Yes, I see
Speaker 1: I haven't picked one up in a while. I remember
Speaker 1: picking up one of the Narnia books, The Dawn Treader,
Speaker 1: and realizing that the language was quite simple, whereas my
Speaker 1: imagination I could taste the salt of the sea. And
Speaker 1: sometimes I think children's imaginations are so much.
Speaker 2: Richer than perhaps an adult. I just need to drop
Speaker 2: a sea, yeah, and they'll grow the sea at all,
Speaker 2: Whereas I felt like with that scene, now I'd need
Speaker 2: a lot more words to give me what I could see.
Speaker 2: But yeah, obviously they're amazing, because otherwise anybody could just
Speaker 2: write a children's book and the children would pick it up.
Speaker 2: So obviously there was something really special about what they did,
Speaker 2: But it just wasn't as amazing as I thought it
Speaker 2: would be when I picked it up. When you so,
Speaker 2: when you got your first book published? Which book was that?
Speaker 2: Three Wishes? Right? How was that moment for you, that
Speaker 2: little girl who'd always wanted to be a writer? Really
Speaker 2: with the two writing sisters, how was that moment? And
Speaker 2: how did you find out that you were getting published?
Speaker 2: Was it a phone call or a letter? The main
Speaker 2: thing I remember is that I remember the phone call
Speaker 2: from my agent, Fiona English, and I don't actually remember
Speaker 2: what she said. My memory is always that I played
Speaker 2: the voicemail to one of my best friends and that
Speaker 2: she I can see her face as she listened to
Speaker 2: the call, and then she grabbed my arm because she
Speaker 2: was so excited for me. So I think she was
Speaker 2: obviously just saying yes, so I will represent you, and
Speaker 2: that she liked the book. So I can remember that
Speaker 2: more than the moment that I actually got the deal.
Speaker 2: It was just seeing my friend Marissa's face yea, and
Speaker 2: someone recognizing yes, yeah, that which you had dared to
Speaker 2: dream and execute.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, and was almost enough that she said
Speaker 1: it was good? I mean what it wouldn't have been enough?
Speaker 2: Terrible? I can't sell it. Yes, but sometimes I think
Speaker 2: you need that in you, just sometimes you just need
Speaker 2: someone who's going to believe in you. How did you
Speaker 2: know that you were worth believing in so because there's
Speaker 2: rejection and rejection, and yet you persisted.
Speaker 1: What got me to finish Three Wishes was because I
Speaker 1: was doing it as part of a master's degree. So
Speaker 1: you were just in a group of people. So I
Speaker 1: could have achieved exactly this being in a writer's group maybe,
Speaker 1: but you'd have to come along each week. And read out,
Speaker 1: or maybe we didn't read it out, maybe we sent
Speaker 1: it to each other.
Speaker 2: I can't was this way you had to write thirty
Speaker 2: thousand weeks?
Speaker 1: Yes, write, Yes, So I think I owe a lot
Speaker 1: to them because they'd be saying nice things about it,
Speaker 1: so about the So they were believing in me. So
Speaker 1: it wasn't like I've heard about those American MFAs were
Speaker 1: apparently they're brutal and they say, you know, they said
Speaker 1: they're really critical, which it would not have worked for me.
Speaker 1: I needed these They were all women, and they were
Speaker 1: all just saying lovely things, and we want to know
Speaker 1: what happens next.
Speaker 2: So that's what got me. There is something that you
Speaker 2: have because I was I was thinking about you're writing
Speaker 2: when I was reading this book, and I was thinking,
Speaker 2: what is it? Because yes, you create these worlds and
Speaker 2: they're so vivid, and even you recalling your girlfriend's hand
Speaker 2: on your arm, you've got just a beautiful recall of
Speaker 2: human moments. But overall, and because of course the characters
Speaker 2: are ten years older now and they're perimenopausal. But when
Speaker 2: you talk about such things and there's a really funny
Speaker 2: Madeline with bunions, and you know, just everything, everything flying
Speaker 2: at her at once, and even though you talk about
Speaker 2: the tribulations that are very relatable, there's an optimism that
Speaker 2: you have that imbues your work. That means that even
Speaker 2: when things are hard and the characters going through things
Speaker 2: that are hard, there's an uplift to it. That's a gift,
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 1: It is that intentional. It's definitely not intentional, and I know,
Speaker 1: and actually that doesn't work for some readers because I
Speaker 1: think some readers might feel that it's too flippant. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't mean it though.
Speaker 2: In a in a you know what's her name, who
Speaker 2: was always just with the teapot, who was always all
Speaker 2: rah rah, Pollyanna, I don't mean it, Pollyanna sort of what. No,
Speaker 2: I know, you don't Yeah, I don't know. I don't
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's like I trust you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: People have said that to me before, and readers have
Speaker 1: just recently an older woman, I don't know, I said,
Speaker 1: older woman, I should probably the same, just me, and
Speaker 1: she said, I know, I can, I know, I'm safe
Speaker 1: with you. And I took that to mean I'm not
Speaker 1: going to do anything, You're not going to get to
Speaker 1: the end, and I'm trying to think of something. There's
Speaker 1: some books where I get angry, and to me it's
Speaker 1: a betrayal. It's a betrayal, yes, And to me it's
Speaker 1: that's when I, oh, this is my theory. Terrible things
Speaker 1: do happen in the real world, and more than one
Speaker 1: horrible thing can happen to a person in the real world. Yes,
Speaker 1: and life is not fair. And then you can say
Speaker 1: then you might say, well, how could God or whoever
Speaker 1: you believe in could let that happen? And if I'm
Speaker 1: reading a book and too many terrible things are happen happening,
Speaker 1: then I think, well, you the author, I'm suddenly taken
Speaker 1: out of the story, and I think that's not right.
Speaker 1: You should not have let those terrible things.
Speaker 2: Happened to them, because we're at your mercy.
Speaker 1: Yes, And also that that idea of well, this is
Speaker 1: the way it happens in the real world. And oh
Speaker 1: and also this is why I'm a commercial writer, because
Speaker 1: that idea that in real life, endings are messy and
Speaker 1: and so therefore they can just stop. In some books
Speaker 1: and at the exple yes, nothing's resolved. But that's why
Speaker 1: I think we read for the pleasure of a story
Speaker 1: is things completions are tied up that feeling and that
Speaker 1: you end on a sense of hope. And so sometimes
Speaker 1: I read a book and I think, I understand that
Speaker 1: was beautiful, and I understand that was probably the right
Speaker 1: thing to do. But if it was me, I would
Speaker 1: have said and then it was okay, right, yeah, they
Speaker 1: were all everything was worked out.
Speaker 2: So you know, I actually noted in the book where
Speaker 2: you said that that bad things. There's not a law
Speaker 2: that says only one bad thing can happen that once
Speaker 2: papered with wisdom, papered with wisdom. But and in fact
Speaker 2: that happens in the book.
Speaker 1: Yes, but yes it does, but not I think I
Speaker 1: still think readers will, yes, forgive me for that.
Speaker 2: Madeleine, and I have to I thought of you when
Speaker 2: I read when Madeleine discovers a lump in her breast
Speaker 2: on the is it the day of her birthday, her fiftieth,
Speaker 2: or the night before or the morning or the morning,
Speaker 2: And I thought of you because you had a similar experience. Yes,
Speaker 2: although I didn't find a lump, I just had the
Speaker 2: the mammogram the.
Speaker 1: I got I got an email, so you need to
Speaker 1: was it an email? Yes, because I was away on holidays,
Speaker 1: saying you need to come back or you need to
Speaker 1: do something. And so you just had a routine, yes,
Speaker 1: a routine yes. And then a very stern woman called me.
Speaker 1: She was she was cross with me. I think she
Speaker 1: thought I was not going to take it seriously, but
Speaker 1: I knew I could tell that there was going to
Speaker 1: be something. And then when I had the So then
Speaker 1: I went and I got the biopsy, and I can
Speaker 1: always remember the lovely woman who was doing it. She
Speaker 1: said something like, oh I had I had breast cans.
Speaker 1: Oh I had no, She said, I had this sort
Speaker 1: of biopsy. So she was explaining what would happen, so
Speaker 1: you'll feel this and you'll feel that.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: And then I said, and so was yours? Was yours benign?
Speaker 1: And she said no, but it was all it was
Speaker 1: all okay, And I thought, I can tell mine's not.
Speaker 2: How did you know? You said before even when you
Speaker 2: had the mammogram, you were like there's something there or
Speaker 2: oh no, no, no. It was just when I got
Speaker 2: that email, I thought she's not going to be good.
Speaker 2: And because my sister had been through which freakster my
Speaker 2: middle sister, yes, not one of my writing sister yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: her name's Katie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and she had to have much more invasive
Speaker 1: treatment than I did having.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, when you went through that. I've heard you
Speaker 2: talk about it before, and you it's almost like it
Speaker 2: was not as significant as it well, because yes, because
Speaker 2: she had to go through it, to go through so
Speaker 2: much more, and you compare with your sister's not that
Speaker 2: anybody was saying you.
Speaker 1: And certainly she was not trying to downplay it in
Speaker 1: any way, but I guess I was downplaying it a bit.
Speaker 1: So that's why I think I probably told that story
Speaker 1: of the school mother and I kept on referring back
Speaker 1: to my sister and then and I say, it's fine,
Speaker 1: but my sister. And then she said, but I want
Speaker 1: to hear about you, not your sister. That was really nice, right,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. And then how do you think that affected you?
Speaker 1: Because I love in the book. I love it, and
Speaker 1: also it's a it's just such an amazing emotional pivot.
Speaker 2: When Madeline is given the all clear and then we
Speaker 2: find out that ED is like perilously seek How do
Speaker 2: you think that your experience, or even your sister's experience
Speaker 2: affected you when you come to rhyme things like that.
Speaker 1: I think that I always write I'm very much in
Speaker 1: the world that I'm in. Yes, And so they say
Speaker 1: that the between forty five to sixty they call it snipers.
Speaker 2: Ali, all these.
Speaker 1: Things coming for you. So not just my sister and I,
Speaker 1: but people in our wider circle. So I think that
Speaker 1: it just and I never think, now I'm going to
Speaker 1: write about this. It's just naturally comes in, so that
Speaker 1: this is just. And I'm sure you're the same with
Speaker 1: your friends when you'll get together and you're talking about
Speaker 1: all your your maladies and your latest doctor's appointment.
Speaker 2: We don't do malody talk. I really, I don't like me.
Speaker 2: I don't like talk. No, I don't like malady talk. No,
Speaker 2: I just don't like it. Oh so yeah, come on,
Speaker 2: it's no. No, I didn't like to know, like I'm
Speaker 2: a good fowl with a friend. Yes, but you know
Speaker 2: sometimes you're like, oh.
Speaker 4: My god, you know, but yeah, but I mean there's
Speaker 4: just I've got to go to the physio for yeah,
Speaker 4: this and getting this checked, and so we all go
Speaker 4: through are you okay?
Speaker 1: Have you followed up on that that appointment and so.
Speaker 2: We're all safe. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So now, so I think that's that's what.
Speaker 2: I meant in your family, in your with your two
Speaker 2: kids and your husband. I mean, I guess it's different
Speaker 2: for the kids because they've they only know you as
Speaker 2: you and the evolution of you. But your husband, when
Speaker 2: he married you, knew that he was marrying Leanne Moriarty,
Speaker 2: but he didn't know who was going to be married
Speaker 2: to Leanne Moriarty? Did he? No? No? And how's that?
Speaker 2: How has that been for him?
Speaker 1: Well? I think he really enjoys some aspects of it,
Speaker 1: so he I think he has more fun. For example,
Speaker 1: at some of the red carpet things we've been to,
Speaker 1: he'd be more relaxed because he's relaxed and he's just
Speaker 1: enjoying and he looks great. So we have pictures of him,
Speaker 1: so we we have never actually got around to getting married.
Speaker 2: So so he's right, yeah, but I can't call him friend.
Speaker 2: He's your boyfriend. He's my husband. I think I've allowed
Speaker 2: to good boyfriend. But my parents used to have this
Speaker 2: thing with all of the kids that they have their
Speaker 2: wedding photos up on a wall, and so they in
Speaker 2: the end, because we've never got around to getting married,
Speaker 2: they got this picture of us at the premiere of
Speaker 2: Big little lies because we're all dressed up and it
Speaker 2: was funny to see because there's all the lovely, elegant photos.
Speaker 1: So he really enjoys that part of it. And apart
Speaker 1: from that, yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2: Does he read your books? He's not really a reader,
Speaker 2: so he did. I remember there was a whole thing.
Speaker 1: When I very first met him, he was reading Three
Speaker 1: Wishes and because he felt he should have because he
Speaker 1: was courting me, and he made some comment about he
Speaker 1: was plowing through it. Also is because he was a
Speaker 1: farmer and.
Speaker 2: Was trying to say no. As an ex farmer plowing,
Speaker 2: he's got positive connodations because interestingly, and I think I've
Speaker 2: told you this before, the two people that put me
Speaker 2: onto you as a writer, one was Husy yes, and
Speaker 2: one was my dad that's right, yes, And they both
Speaker 2: read The Husband's Secret Yeah yeah, and loved it. And
Speaker 2: that was I guess interesting because they didn't even think
Speaker 2: of the term chick lit no, which is wonderful.
Speaker 1: But still when I have events, it's all it's women
Speaker 1: with an occasional lone man.
Speaker 2: But well, you need to write a book about the
Speaker 2: Nazis and then the will World War two?
Speaker 1: Oh well, I guess in some ways that there was
Speaker 1: not many happy happy endings, is there? Yeah? But yeah,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of male readers I know, and
Speaker 1: sometimes they've written to me or or they've just picked
Speaker 1: up the their partner's book. So and it should not
Speaker 1: be I read books written by men.
Speaker 2: Well, this is always the thing that I'm struck by,
Speaker 2: that it seems that there's a more generosity for women
Speaker 2: to enter the world of interests of men than there
Speaker 2: seems to be the other way. But then maybe they
Speaker 2: see reading our books as like fossicking through our handbags.
Speaker 2: They're just they're monsters.
Speaker 1: Yes, but yeah, and I don't know that my books
Speaker 1: are necessarily my husband's taste here.
Speaker 2: What does he read? Not much of a reader, but
Speaker 2: what I did like non fiction or historical fiction.
Speaker 1: He loved Kate Grenville's The Secret River, Yes, because I
Speaker 1: remember seeing her at a writer's festival and thinking, he
Speaker 1: likes you your book. So he's not so interested in that.
Speaker 1: He's always what's that thing?
Speaker 2: He said? Once?
Speaker 1: Oh, I know what, it's your job's easy. You just
Speaker 1: sit at your desk and you go tappity tappity tap feelings, feelings, feelings.
Speaker 1: So he's so interesting the feelings part of it, yes,
Speaker 1: or the tabberty tappings.
Speaker 2: Stay with us. My conversation with Leanne continues after this break.
Speaker 2: If you were not going to be the writer that
Speaker 2: you are, who would you be? Oh?
Speaker 1: If I could be another type of writer, Oh, I
Speaker 1: don't know who, but then I wouldn't. I always think that,
Speaker 1: and then I would think I don't, But then I
Speaker 1: would not have the pleasure of reading their books. You
Speaker 1: have the pleasure of reading your books, but that's a
Speaker 1: different sort of pleasure.
Speaker 2: That's not you won't know them.
Speaker 4: Hmmm.
Speaker 1: I definitely I read oh well, and Tyler is the one.
Speaker 1: She's so she's my favorite author. And one of my
Speaker 1: favorite comments ever on a review was about me was
Speaker 1: she's like Aunt Tyler, not not quite as good. But
Speaker 1: I really love that because that to me. Men. I
Speaker 1: believed it, and I loved the way she She doesn't
Speaker 1: have to have much plot, not that much happens, but
Speaker 1: she writes so beautifully about just ordinary life. So that's
Speaker 1: who I'm always aspiring to be.
Speaker 2: You also do that, though, because you it's if you're
Speaker 2: going to look at everybody's story, the manuche of what
Speaker 2: happens in the moments of their lives is so truthful
Speaker 2: and rich in detail. Are you storing nuts away for
Speaker 2: winter like a squirrel constantly? With moments? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yes, But also I feel those those things come easy
Speaker 1: to me. I recall those. It's the parts that I
Speaker 1: struggle with are describing this room, or oh I can,
Speaker 1: or and I'm really I couldn't. I'm not good at landscape,
Speaker 1: or just how can I just stuff the real world.
Speaker 1: So that's where my husband helps her. For example, with
Speaker 1: Nine Perfect Strangers, I wanted a fake fire to be
Speaker 1: created when all the people at their heart they're stuck
Speaker 1: in a in a room. So I said, so, how
Speaker 1: would they do that? So he was he would helped
Speaker 1: me with it, doing the that have to get a
Speaker 1: waste paper basket and put that all. That sort of
Speaker 1: thing is what I struggle with.
Speaker 2: But the little.
Speaker 1: Moments I find those those are easy. But you can
Speaker 1: fake it. That's so I always remember with the Hypnotist
Speaker 1: love story, there's a house that I describe and people
Speaker 1: say to me, I love that house, but I really
Speaker 1: had to work and they see it so clearly, and
Speaker 1: I feel like they see it more clearly than I
Speaker 1: see it, because I'm not so good at that I
Speaker 1: had to research. It was a seventies style house, and
Speaker 1: I had to Those sentences did not come easy to try,
Speaker 1: but I could fake those two. That's the work, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: That's the heavy lifting which then moves you forward into
Speaker 2: a into smoother sailing. That's right.
Speaker 1: And now the people are in the house and they're talking,
Speaker 1: and that's okay.
Speaker 2: But you're writing of teenagers is and I have a
Speaker 2: house of four teenagers three now and it's unerringly accurate.
Speaker 1: Well that's good. Yeah, my kids will say don't They
Speaker 1: were saying, don't even try. You won't get it right
Speaker 1: with a language, and I had to be. I was
Speaker 1: really aware of the fact that I couldn't use to
Speaker 1: too much slang because so quickly yes, next, nobody's this
Speaker 1: part is going to be.
Speaker 2: Lit the kids when we talk like man y, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And what was the most difficult part to imagine in
Speaker 2: this book? Because it reads with an ease. I can't
Speaker 2: pick a part that was difficult for you to write.
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes you read a book and you know
Speaker 2: that that you can sort of see the work involved
Speaker 2: in getting to a point that's good.
Speaker 1: The hardest part was definitely the backstories and and so
Speaker 1: that's where I'm very grateful to my editors, where they're
Speaker 1: so integrating those yes, and say it's it's too much backstory,
Speaker 1: you need to bring that in a bit later, to
Speaker 1: bring that in naturally. So that was the hardest part.
Speaker 1: I'm never so good at the the police procedural part
Speaker 1: at it. That's so for example, with Apple's Neverfore, what
Speaker 1: I was interested in was the idea of could you
Speaker 1: believe that your father could kill your mother? So thinking
Speaker 1: and four children and how each of them would perceive
Speaker 1: their parents' marriage. Yes, so I've found that so fascinating.
Speaker 1: But then for that to be real, the mother's got
Speaker 1: to go missing, but I wasn't so interested. She has
Speaker 1: to go somewhere and the police have to investigate, but
Speaker 1: I wasn't so interested in that part, right, I just
Speaker 1: want the kids talking about but they do. They love
Speaker 1: each other and all the things that are parts of
Speaker 1: their childhood. So those parts are again where I have
Speaker 1: to work hard at it.
Speaker 2: When you have done that work and you've received acclaim
Speaker 2: and then you get a phone call from Nicole Kidman's
Speaker 2: people saying we want to commission this, we want to
Speaker 2: get the rights for this, you've been down that road before.
Speaker 2: What does that feel like? Well, in the beginning, and
Speaker 2: it's every author dreams of it because it brings you
Speaker 2: more readers, and it's so hard even when you get
Speaker 2: started to just get a review in the local paper.
Speaker 2: And also it's just exciting to think of it being adapted.
Speaker 2: But it's never that.
Speaker 1: I'm never writing them no as a future adaptation, although
Speaker 1: this is one is different because I knew for sure
Speaker 1: that it would be, so I can't pretend with this
Speaker 1: one that I wasn't aware of the fact that that
Speaker 1: that would happen. So that was probably more in my
Speaker 1: head than with other with other books and with my next,
Speaker 1: with my next one, which I haven't started, but I
Speaker 1: won't be thinking of a future adaptation.
Speaker 2: I'm not, I don't. But this is still Australia, not
Speaker 2: Montezy exactly. Yeah, And I never want to think of
Speaker 2: the book as just to stop on the way to
Speaker 2: the adaptation. For me, it's the book is what matters,
Speaker 2: because that's between me and the reader. I love that
Speaker 2: because it's really personal, that it feels like something sort
Speaker 2: of magical, that it's my imagination and their imagination. Then
Speaker 2: it's creating something completely different with every single person there are,
Speaker 2: because they're all seeing little things from their own lives.
Speaker 1: So that's I always find it funny when readers come
Speaker 1: up to me and they might say, and the such
Speaker 1: and such, and they'll get it a little bit wrong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because there was something that they thought of from
Speaker 2: their own life that they're woven.
Speaker 1: Yes, into their Oh that's amazing, yea. But whereas the adaptation,
Speaker 1: then there's a whole lot of different people, and every
Speaker 1: single actor is bringing something from their own lives, and
Speaker 1: there's the writer and the director. So that to me
Speaker 1: is something completely completely different.
Speaker 2: And even though you weren't anticipating it, and you kind
Speaker 2: of can't write with the end game being I want this,
Speaker 2: it's like people that are going to show bies because
Speaker 2: they want the red carpet rather than doing the work first.
Speaker 2: But I imagine when Nicole Kidman says, I have read
Speaker 2: your book. Oh, yes, it's a huge it's a huge thrill.
Speaker 2: Was she going to be in the book when she
Speaker 2: read it? Did she place herself in the book straight away?
Speaker 2: Or yes she knew she was celested? Yes, and what
Speaker 2: did you say?
Speaker 1: But I still think it would really happen because I
Speaker 1: had had books adapted before, because it had been going
Speaker 1: on for years, so much so that I can remember
Speaker 1: I was single and somebody was talking about adapting Three Wishes,
Speaker 1: and I remember because he was coming to meet me,
Speaker 1: and I was thinking, this might be a good meet cute,
Speaker 1: maybe this is my.
Speaker 2: And I can remember.
Speaker 1: Because he came to the door and it was like
Speaker 1: the light caught his wedding ring to and so and
Speaker 1: nothing came of that, And so the years go by
Speaker 1: and nothing. It's just all authors talk about that, and
Speaker 1: you don't get too excited until the day they start filming.
Speaker 1: So even meeting Nicole, I was just thinking, this is
Speaker 1: a fun story to tell about meeting her, and it's
Speaker 1: a thrill that she's even read it. But then I
Speaker 1: was saying to her, well, I know not to get
Speaker 1: too excited because this may or may not happen, and
Speaker 1: she said, oh, no, we won't if we option to
Speaker 1: get excited, so they're not mucking around. Yeah, And she
Speaker 1: was right. She was right because it did happen much
Speaker 1: quicker than any of my other books have been adapted.
Speaker 1: So I just got really lucky.
Speaker 2: I haven't finished the book yet, are you going to
Speaker 2: break my heart. Well, this is a thing.
Speaker 1: I have to break your heart a little. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: you're going to break my heart, but I just talked
Speaker 1: about your in safe hands. But I trust you to
Speaker 1: break my heart. Okay, good, good, I'll break it nicely, tenderly.
Speaker 1: I like the tension.
Speaker 2: With Jane and the baby and the baby. Yeah, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: very relatable.
Speaker 1: I've really I've realized that I don't think I've ever
Speaker 1: written a book where the desire to have children or
Speaker 1: not have children is not explored in some way.
Speaker 2: And so yes, in this one. Why she does onto
Speaker 2: that so much? Do you think?
Speaker 1: Well, probably because it took me a long time to
Speaker 1: meet the right person, and then we had trouble having children.
Speaker 1: So I either thought for quite a while that I
Speaker 1: was going to miss out so and I'd always, as
Speaker 1: a little girl, assumed I would have well, you know,
Speaker 1: because of being one of six children, and cousins with
Speaker 1: eight children of that, you know, the aunties and uncles
Speaker 1: with eight children, so Irish Irish Catholics. So I just
Speaker 1: assumed i'd have at least three. And yeah, I just couldn't.
Speaker 1: And I know, I know some readers have got mad
Speaker 1: with me with them that if so, I would say,
Speaker 1: if somebody wants a baby in one of my books,
Speaker 1: I'm probably going to give them a baby. And I
Speaker 1: know people, I know people can go through, go through
Speaker 1: the desire to have children and then come at the
Speaker 1: other end and they accept it and they're okay. But
Speaker 1: I feel when I'm in charge of their world, I
Speaker 1: have to give them the baby. But maybe I should
Speaker 1: write that one day, because I think it does happen.
Speaker 1: I've read about it that it's you grieve but then yeah,
Speaker 1: and I have that Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you should.
Speaker 2: I should.
Speaker 1: That's what I think this reader wanted me to to
Speaker 1: give hope for.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's interesting when you talk about what you're about,
Speaker 2: what your motivation is when you're writing, because you can
Speaker 2: only be the writer that you are, Yes, can't. You
Speaker 2: can't serve other people's wishes and broken dreams or their ideology.
Speaker 2: I know that's but do you feel a responsibility sometimes
Speaker 2: to do that?
Speaker 4: Do you?
Speaker 1: Because I felt this particular person, I felt, I felt
Speaker 1: bad about that. But I know if I ever start,
Speaker 1: if I'd have to have it at the end when
Speaker 1: she was past it all, I just know that I
Speaker 1: couldn't then resist her, and it turned down.
Speaker 4: She was.
Speaker 2: Left on the door. There was Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1: Yes, but you're right. You can only be the writer
Speaker 1: that you are. Somebody an author once said to me
Speaker 1: that something about how every author has a desire to
Speaker 1: write the book they can't write, or something like that.
Speaker 1: Trying to think why that can. But she was talking
Speaker 1: about how she always writes really big books and she
Speaker 1: has this desire to write a really short book. Yes,
Speaker 1: I can't remember now what I was talking about, the
Speaker 1: sort of book that I want to write.
Speaker 2: That it's that, it's what you are compelled to write. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: because it's your truth.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, But then you read other books and think,
Speaker 1: why don't I write a book like like that? But
Speaker 1: then then I can't do it.
Speaker 2: When you had finished this manuscript. Is there a feeling
Speaker 2: that you have? You know, sometimes people songwriters say, oh
Speaker 2: I knew i'd written. I knew that it was a hit.
Speaker 2: I knew it was a hit. Is there an internal
Speaker 2: barometer of truth that you have inside you where you like,
Speaker 2: I have served my character as well, and I have
Speaker 2: done I have I have told their truths?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, deep in my heart I believe I have.
Speaker 1: But then it's all mixed up with the terror of
Speaker 1: people of critical things that people may or may not say.
Speaker 1: I haven't yet. I feel like I will surely one
Speaker 1: day grow up enough that I can let that go.
Speaker 1: Because I remember while I was writing this sometimes I'd
Speaker 1: think there's a line critics sometimes use Moriarty seems to
Speaker 1: think blah blah blah, And in my head, I was thinking,
Speaker 1: they're going to say, Moriarty seems to think that teenagers
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, And I what am I doing role
Speaker 1: right now that teenagers do or don't do? And then
Speaker 1: I'd say, to my children, your fault if you're doing
Speaker 1: something ages do, and of course you can't. And that
Speaker 1: was the thing with teenagers. There's so such a huge
Speaker 1: spectrum of what you could do with teenagers. You could
Speaker 1: lean into the the really hard things of being a
Speaker 1: teen or the wonderful which you've done. Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: I was trying to do, to show that it's not
Speaker 1: just one way. So and I love I love my
Speaker 1: teenagers in this book so much.
Speaker 2: I love them.
Speaker 1: You can tell you love them so yeah, so deep
Speaker 1: in my heart, I feel, really, I feel really good
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 2: Do you know what's interesting though, when you were saying
Speaker 2: before imagining what the critics will say. It's so much
Speaker 2: a part of the artistic process, and people do it
Speaker 2: in life no matter what your what walk of life
Speaker 2: you're in. We love to prosecute the case against ourselves. Yes,
Speaker 2: to get Why do we do that? Yeah, to get
Speaker 2: in first, to get in first? Why do we do that?
Speaker 2: And how have you not out grown that.
Speaker 1: As an artist when you I think it's just being protective.
Speaker 1: And I don't know why I haven't because what.
Speaker 2: I mean is I don't mean why, but because there's
Speaker 2: been external affirmation of your work on such a scale,
Speaker 2: and also internal affirmation because you kept doing it, so
Speaker 2: you know that you're good and that what you're doing
Speaker 2: is right. Why do you think we have this capacity
Speaker 2: as humans to want to prosecute ourselves.
Speaker 1: I don't know, and I don't know. I don't know
Speaker 1: if everybody has it. But yeah, I remember that that
Speaker 1: friend who I talked about earlier, holding my and I
Speaker 1: had a bad boyfriend once and she said to me,
Speaker 1: you don't need him, because you don't need somebody to
Speaker 1: be hard on you. You're already hard enough on yourself. You
Speaker 1: don't need a critical person like that. So I guess it's.
Speaker 2: I guess what I'm asking is it. Is it part
Speaker 2: of the process to oh, is there a point to way?
Speaker 2: Is it actually sort of strangely beneficial? Like I remember
Speaker 2: once hearing Will Anderson say talk about a teacher that
Speaker 2: it had when he was at high school. He said,
Speaker 2: you'll never you're not funny or whatever, and he's like, see,
Speaker 2: look at me now. And I thought to myself, but
Speaker 2: maybe that teacher hadn't said you said that to you?
Speaker 1: Yes, then yes, I don't think not because I don't
Speaker 1: think this is helping that I'm trying to That's I
Speaker 1: think it's fine for envy to be a motivation, but
Speaker 1: I think that is the covering myself helping well. In
Speaker 1: some ways, the criticism can help you for everybody saying
Speaker 1: something similar. So with my book Truly Madly Guilty, everybody
Speaker 1: said I took too long to tell them what happened
Speaker 1: at the barbecue, and I think that's really vague. Everybody's saying, yes,
Speaker 1: if there's something coming, and then I've said to some
Speaker 1: people you know, friends, and yeah, yeah, so and you
Speaker 1: get to a point where that doesn't actually hurt your
Speaker 1: feelings at all that's fine, but was the saying Moriarty
Speaker 1: seems to think. I don't think that was helping me
Speaker 1: along the way, because I was already doing the best
Speaker 1: sad Yet you took it upon yourself. You didn't even
Speaker 1: have to wait for the critic to do it. We
Speaker 1: do it to ourselves. But maybe also sometimes I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm a bit superstitious, thinking if I think these
Speaker 1: really mean things, and surely that won't happen. It's like
Speaker 1: when you think all the worst things that could happen,
Speaker 1: a car accident or whatever, then every terrible thing that
Speaker 1: could happen that you yes.
Speaker 2: Having read that book, I can tell you that doesn't work.
Speaker 2: It's going to come and get you. Any who do you?
Speaker 2: I know writers are always like it's like asking me to
Speaker 2: pick my favorite child. But they must know you most
Speaker 2: wanted to meet again, to bring to life again.
Speaker 1: Oh probably Madeline. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I loved I loved writing her the first time round.
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, probably Madeline.
Speaker 2: There's there's nothing like her O calamity, yes, yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: and all that, and the fact that because I can
Speaker 2: always remember when I first created her, writing perpetually outraged
Speaker 2: like so and so, and she MARIALI sparkle egirl like
Speaker 2: so and so, and then combining those two attributes, and
Speaker 2: then she became Madeline and I could I knew who
Speaker 2: she was so clearly. And it's fun to write somebody
Speaker 2: who's perpetually out, who shows themselves. So, yes, the three
Speaker 2: sixty of them, Yes, exactly to be saying, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: what's your next book that you referred to before?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: No, I referred I have I've got nothing.
Speaker 2: Oh you got nothing?
Speaker 1: What I did write a short story, my first ever
Speaker 1: short story, which was a little bit different from anything
Speaker 1: I've written before. It was sort of I was calling
Speaker 1: it science fiction, but I think maybe the right word
Speaker 1: is speculative fiction, because I just finished a book and
Speaker 1: he called it speculation.
Speaker 2: What is speculative fiction? Yeah? What is it?
Speaker 1: Were you're speculating possibility of the future? Or yeah, how
Speaker 1: is it different from science fiction? I mean, it's good
Speaker 1: to know.
Speaker 2: I think I just liked it written speculat in fiction,
Speaker 2: you're going to have to explain it to get better
Speaker 2: at that. It was set in the future.
Speaker 1: And sort of using in a couple of generations away
Speaker 1: with the possibilities of technology and again, that's something that
Speaker 1: if and I enjoyed writing it a lot. But the
Speaker 1: part that of course I'm not good at is the
Speaker 1: actual technology, right, But I'm just really interested in it
Speaker 1: that he wouldn't help with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the kids maybe, Yeah, but it's like the Simpsons
Speaker 2: imagine the world that you would have no knowledge of. Yes,
Speaker 2: but it proves to be prophetic. Yes, Yeah, it was
Speaker 2: fun to do that. Yeah. So maybe do you think
Speaker 2: because there's talent in your family, do you think it's
Speaker 2: born or mate? Obviously it's it's refined and it's enriched
Speaker 2: and developed. I just think it's a bit of both.
Speaker 2: I don't. Yeah. I think.
Speaker 1: That mum and Dad were both storytellers, and my mom's
Speaker 1: still an amazing storyteller. So we've got a group the
Speaker 1: family chat with all of us on it am some
Speaker 1: of her messages. So somebody will say I saw so
Speaker 1: and so well that reminds me of such and SUCHU.
Speaker 1: She used to live down the road from Missus Brodie,
Speaker 1: who was and she tells the story so beautifully, so
Speaker 1: I think, And of course Dad always took completely the
Speaker 1: credit for it. So I think I heard one of
Speaker 1: your sisters say he would tell the story and not
Speaker 1: let the facts get ye. Never let the story, never
Speaker 1: let the facts get good story. Yeah, so I think
Speaker 1: we just had that, and then Jackie was the brave
Speaker 1: enough one to finish it and have a go and
Speaker 1: realize that. And I know she always she's always so kind.
Speaker 1: She always says that I'm sure you would have finished it,
Speaker 1: but I needed to see her do it first. So
Speaker 1: you just need to see it.
Speaker 2: Do you think that it's been hard for your sisters
Speaker 2: in the similar pursuit that you have achieved this success? Now,
Speaker 2: obviously you're very close and they're very happy for you.
Speaker 2: I know you read each other's work, but the very
Speaker 2: same envy that motivated you.
Speaker 1: Well, I say, I think they're nicer than me. Well,
Speaker 1: you're the eldest, I'm the eldest, and there is that.
Speaker 1: So I was the one who, you know, got my
Speaker 1: driver's license first and all that sort of thing. So
Speaker 1: I think that that helped my and my sister Jackie,
Speaker 1: she's one lots of awards, so she's an award winning author.
Speaker 1: But yeah, there are funny there are funny times, but
Speaker 1: it's happened the other way. Nicola and I were at
Speaker 1: an events once and a woman came up to us
Speaker 1: and said, oh, I love your books. But then she
Speaker 1: said to Nichola, but you're you're my favorite. You have
Speaker 1: to have a favorite.
Speaker 2: Yes, so there's things like but it's a tricky thing
Speaker 2: to navigate, tricky in the context of course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I can't I guess I can't speak for
Speaker 1: them except to say that they're both fantastic writers.
Speaker 2: And there and the Moriarity. Yes, and they're lovely. You're
Speaker 2: very lovely, very lovely. I'm I cannot thank you enough
Speaker 2: for bringing this world to us again, Oh, thank you,
Speaker 2: and doing it with such heart and wheat and soul
Speaker 2: and richness. It's just so fucking good. It's really really good.
Speaker 2: You've done a great job. Thank you. It's a great read.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you so much. I will hold that
Speaker 1: in my heart.
Speaker 2: Ass But it really is because it is, like we
Speaker 2: said earlier, it's an act of faith. I'm glad you
Speaker 2: don't have, you know, someone growling out rosy O'Donnell as
Speaker 2: a nun.
Speaker 5: But obviously you were fine with that. You were fine
Speaker 5: with that. I just was like, oh, that's a lot,
Speaker 5: thank you. What do you think is going to happen
Speaker 5: in the casting of this this time? And the kids,
Speaker 5: do you have ideas like that?
Speaker 4: Uh?
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 1: For my daughter, I put because she's a fan of
Speaker 1: Timothy Shallamy, who isn't Yes, And so I put one character.
Speaker 1: I said, he resembled.
Speaker 2: Just in case. Are your kids artie? Oh?
Speaker 1: Well, it's hard to get them reading at the moment.
Speaker 2: It's very hard.
Speaker 1: The phone, Yes, the phones, that's tricky. So I'm sure
Speaker 1: they have the potential. But at the moment, no, not yet,
Speaker 1: No tech free Tuesday exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: I don't know what. I don't know what they're what
Speaker 2: And who's seen it so far? Who's read it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So so the producers have all so somebody is that
Speaker 1: they're working on the screenplay read now.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, that they would have been happy with that,
Speaker 2: they said they were. But we'll see what they Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to accept the fact that of course
Speaker 1: they'll change.
Speaker 2: They'll change that. You're very good at that, aren't you.
Speaker 1: I didn't like it when they changed when I wrote
Speaker 1: the I wrote something for season two of Big Little Lives,
Speaker 1: which was not to be published, and I realized I
Speaker 1: did not like and because it was not to be published,
Speaker 1: I didn't like that they changed some of those things
Speaker 1: because it felt like those storylines therefore never existed. So
Speaker 1: but I don't. When there's the book, then there's the book.
Speaker 1: So I felt at the end of writing that I
Speaker 1: called it a novella. I thought, where's my book? And yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't care if they if they changed things, because
Speaker 1: nobody can change my book because it's there.
Speaker 2: Yes, and yet you also get to see conversely, in
Speaker 2: surrendering that that control, you get to be really pleasantly
Speaker 2: surprised as well, like Laura.
Speaker 1: Dern oh yes, oh yeah, and there are things that yes.
Speaker 1: So I put that in the author's note that Laura
Speaker 1: took that character of Renata, who was not really important
Speaker 1: in the first book, and she made it her own.
Speaker 1: So so so I was taking from Benarta. And of
Speaker 1: course I saw Meryl Streep completely when I was writing
Speaker 1: Mary Louise, because I'd seen her verse.
Speaker 2: So did Meryl Streep know that you conjured her up,
Speaker 2: that you had.
Speaker 1: She had heard the story. I think she made some
Speaker 1: little remark like thanks for the gig or something, some
Speaker 1: funny line referring to.
Speaker 2: That that's an amazing thing to have done, by the way.
Speaker 1: It is, isn't it that yeah, I still can't believe
Speaker 1: that when I I always tell the story of not
Speaker 1: being able to believe. I had the audacity to say
Speaker 1: I've written this role for Eryl, and then getting that
Speaker 1: text that said, we've got Meryl you're a bit witchy. Well,
Speaker 1: we'll see if we can get Timothy Shallimy for my daughter.
Speaker 2: I like getting past car that's right, Yeah, I know. Anyway,
Speaker 2: he's not I said that, but he's not at all right. Actually,
Speaker 2: who could you play? Well?
Speaker 1: I said that he looked a bit like the character
Speaker 1: of Seth. So the he's not right when you think.
Speaker 2: Okay, sorry darling, he wasn't right. Well, there'll be some
Speaker 2: there'll be a lot of people gagging, I think for
Speaker 2: a role in this I hope. I can't wait to
Speaker 2: see it. Yes, I can't wait to see it. Actually,
Speaker 2: and I look forward to seeing you again. We will
Speaker 2: see you on tour with this book. Oh yes, what
Speaker 2: do you hope for from in general? If you like
Speaker 2: good health?
Speaker 1: And we talked about that to be mallaed free. Well,
Speaker 1: because I'm turning sixty in in November, so I've got
Speaker 1: a real thing about okay, so this is it this
Speaker 1: next decade. So I was out to dinner with some
Speaker 1: friends the other night, and I was saying, this, so
Speaker 1: we've really got to I'm just not sure what it means,
Speaker 1: but this is it. One of my friend's husbands, I
Speaker 1: have seen you so animated, but there's nothing. I still
Speaker 1: I don't have anything to it, because my husband will
Speaker 1: saying there's no substance to what you say, because I
Speaker 1: don't have anything. I just feelings.
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't know what when you say this is it?
Speaker 1: Well, when nearly I don't mean I'm nearly done, that
Speaker 1: life's nearly over, but that whole thing of as you're
Speaker 1: living your life, you're waiting for when I get to this,
Speaker 1: when I get to you've got to stop that, because
Speaker 1: this is to stop waiting. And I think, but what
Speaker 1: you do differently exactly what doesn't make you do? I'm
Speaker 1: not sure. I think maybe just when I'm out with girlfriends,
Speaker 1: we just enjoy it, enjoy it more.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's enough. That's enough, isn't it. Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well that was Leanne Moriarty. I came away from
Speaker 2: that conversation thinking about what she said near the end.
Speaker 2: That idea of this is it of refusing to keep
Speaker 2: waiting for the next milestone before you actually let yourself
Speaker 2: enjoy your life. Coming from a woman who's climbed to
Speaker 2: the very top of her field more than once and
Speaker 2: still catches herself bracing for criticism before a single review
Speaker 2: is even written, I think there's something for all of
Speaker 2: us in that Big Little Truths is out October twenty fifth,
Speaker 2: and if this conversation made you want to go back
Speaker 2: and revisit the world of Madeline, Celeste and the rest,
Speaker 2: Big Little Eyes is exactly where to start. If you
Speaker 2: enjoy this episode, make sure you follow No Filter wherever
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Speaker 2: Every episode of No Filter drops two full days before
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Speaker 2: and MEA subscriber today. I'm your host, Katelinebrook. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much for listening to No Filter