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Speaker 1: The fluorescent lights of the Nolamara Police station buzz over

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Speaker 1: a cramped interview room where detectives have Brendan Abbott sitting

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Speaker 1: in what they describe as a very small space, much

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Speaker 1: like a storeroom. The stations back in nineteen eighty six

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Speaker 1: didn't have.

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Speaker 2: Interview rooms like they do now.

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Speaker 1: They're pressing him about a recent spate of thefts from

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Speaker 1: electrical goods stores. One of his mates has been busted

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Speaker 1: over it, and they'd watched him deliver a brand new

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Speaker 1: Hoover washing machine to his mum's house before nabbing him

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Speaker 1: and his then girlfriend. Abbott refuses to spill any information,

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Speaker 1: so the senior detectives leave, putting a young probationary officer

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Speaker 1: in charge, who offers to make him a cup of

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Speaker 1: tea while he waits. As the officer is dunking the

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Speaker 1: bag in the hot water from the kettle, he hears

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Speaker 1: a bang, and immediately he knows Brendan Abbott has just

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Speaker 1: walked out the back door. Cutting through backyards and side lanes,

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Speaker 1: Abbot dodges the patrols and vanishes towards the Perth skyline.

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Speaker 1: This is his first real escape by nineteen eighty seven, Brendanabba,

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Speaker 1: but it has graduated from breaking into retailers to going

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Speaker 1: straight to the source of the cash he wants, the

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Speaker 1: local bank. He meticulously scouted a Commonwealth Bank branch in Belmont,

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Speaker 1: southeast of Perth, where he used a method that he

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Speaker 1: would pioneer the drop in heist. He and his accomplices

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Speaker 1: hid in the ceiling and then as the staff would

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Speaker 1: arrive for the day and importantly open the door to

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Speaker 1: the vault, they would just drop in and demand the cash.

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Speaker 1: This time he would make off with one hundred and

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Speaker 1: twelve thousand dollars, a huge amount in that day, but

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Speaker 1: that would pale in comparison to some of the totals

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Speaker 1: he would remove from bank vaults around Australia in the

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Speaker 1: next few years.

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Speaker 2: There was just one hiccup.

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Speaker 1: Eventually ratted out by that same girlfriend after finding out

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Speaker 1: he'd been seeing another girl, Abbot landed himself in Fremantle Prison. Inside,

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Speaker 1: Abbot was assigned a job in the taylor's workshop sewing

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Speaker 1: uniforms for staff and inmates, and it was.

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Speaker 2: There that he hatched his next escape.

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Speaker 1: Plan, sewing his own uniforms to make them look like staff.

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Speaker 1: Abbot and mate Aaron Reynolds in nineteen eighty nine, scaled

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Speaker 1: the roof and executed the escape that would cement Abbot's

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Speaker 1: soon to be well established legend, with a cross state

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Speaker 1: crime spree and an ever growing rap sheet.

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Speaker 2: Media would report that Abbot teased.

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Speaker 1: The authorities that he was continually evading by sending the

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Speaker 1: mail from his root across the country, but while it

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Speaker 1: turns out that isn't actually true, it gave rise to

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Speaker 1: Abbot's notorious title, The Postcard Bandit. I'm Claire Murphy and

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Speaker 1: you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the

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Speaker 1: world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who

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Speaker 1: know the most about them. After breaking out of Fremantle Jail,

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Speaker 1: Brandon Abbots spent five years traveling across WA's, South Australia

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Speaker 1: and Queensland, using multiple aliases and changing his appearance as

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Speaker 1: he went. He funded this lifestyle by doing what he

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Speaker 1: does best, robbing Moore Banks, leaving a trail of traumatized

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Speaker 1: bank staff in his way.

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Speaker 2: Eventually, tip offs would see.

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Speaker 1: Police monitor a po box that they believed Abbot was

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Speaker 1: using in Queensland, and while the fugitive had caught wind

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Speaker 1: of the investigation and stopped going to empty it. He

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Speaker 1: couldn't stop mail from going into it, and a bill

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Speaker 1: for a pager service sent police straight to Abbot's house.

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Speaker 1: He was walking outside his home when a plane closed.

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Speaker 1: Detective confronts him on the street, telling him to put

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Speaker 1: his hands up and get down on the ground. Abbot complied,

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Speaker 1: but seemed quite confused as to how they'd finally caught.

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Speaker 2: Up with him. His sentenced to.

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Speaker 1: Spend time in the David Longland Maximum Security Prison, where

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Speaker 1: he hatches his next escape plan. In nineteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 1: Abbot and four others, using diamond wire normally used by

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Speaker 1: jewelers to cut gems, sawed through the high tensile steel

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Speaker 1: bars of their cells. Racing across the yard, they arrived

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Speaker 1: at the fence, which they scaled by stacking chairs on top.

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Speaker 2: Of one another.

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Speaker 1: Now they could be seen on CCTV, but still no

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Speaker 1: one's raised the alarm. The next barrier was easier. An

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Speaker 1: accomplice on the outside has thrown wire carters and a

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Speaker 1: gun over the fence, allowing them to cut through the

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Speaker 1: next layer and the next. Now by this time the

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Speaker 1: alarms are now going off, but the understaffed prison guards

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Speaker 1: don't seem to be responding fast enough until the group

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Speaker 1: are confronted by the perimeter guard vehicle, which they shoot

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Speaker 1: at and gives them the time they need to jump

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Speaker 1: into the getaway car.

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Speaker 2: And run for six months.

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Speaker 1: Brendan Abbott and one of the other eskpees Brendan Breshon,

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Speaker 1: rob More Banks and try to stay away from the police,

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Speaker 1: but Beershon has a drug habit he can't let go of,

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Speaker 1: and that would eventually lead detectives to Abbot's whereabouts, tracking

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Speaker 1: him to Darwin, where Abbot, casually doing a load of

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Speaker 1: washing at the laundromat before strolling into the nearby pizza joint,

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Speaker 1: is intercepted by police once again. Back in jail in Queensland,

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Speaker 1: he's sentenced to eighteen years for his original crimes, new

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Speaker 1: crimes and the escape.

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Speaker 2: When that sentence is done, he's immediately.

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Speaker 1: Extradited to wa to face another sixteen years for crimes

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Speaker 1: committed there and the original escape. He's now in Casarina Prison,

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Speaker 1: having spent more time in solitary confinement than any other inmate,

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Speaker 1: doing more time than many murderers have ever faced. Something

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Speaker 1: his son James, his lawyers, and even one of the

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Speaker 1: detectives who chased him back in the day, Glenn, Porter

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Speaker 1: feel is something that needs to be rectified.

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Speaker 2: Glenn and James join us now.

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Speaker 1: James, Glenn, thank you so much for joining us today

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Speaker 1: to talk about Brendan Abbott. Welcome to True Crime Conversations.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Hello.

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Speaker 2: I guess we.

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Speaker 1: Want to start just to get a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a perspective on Brendan's criminal past. But I think it's

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Speaker 1: worth noting before we sort of kick into the details

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Speaker 1: that he seems to be quite a different sort of criminal.

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Speaker 1: From all the reading and the videos, etc. That I've

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Speaker 1: seen about him, he seems smarter than the average kream.

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Speaker 1: Would you say that's the case, Glenn, He certainly is.

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Speaker 4: I look back at all the crooks that I've put

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Speaker 4: away over the years, he would be in the top group,

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Speaker 4: mainly because I think, and I thought about it's a lot.

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Speaker 4: He's a very strategic thinker. Everything we did when we

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Speaker 4: were chasing him was all about trying to outwit his strategy.

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Speaker 4: For many years. I think we were always behind the April.

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Speaker 1: I guess what we saw at the beginning of his

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Speaker 1: criminal career as far as we are concerned, because we

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Speaker 1: don't have a lot of info about what he was

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Speaker 1: doing as a very young man, but when he was

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Speaker 1: in the mid eighties stealing electrical gear from wholesalers and

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Speaker 1: kind of on selling it. There was a lot of

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Speaker 1: strategy involved in that even from the very beginning, in

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Speaker 1: that he didn't hold on to a lot of the

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Speaker 1: big ticket items like some of the other guys in

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Speaker 1: his crew were doing. It made it a bit more

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Speaker 1: obvious of what they were up to, and that he

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Speaker 1: was doing things like making sure he had an income

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Speaker 1: because he was on the doll at the time, to

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Speaker 1: make it look like that he was actually doing something

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Speaker 1: whilst he was on parole and work cashy jobs on

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Speaker 1: the side. So he's really quite a lateral thinker, not

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Speaker 1: just where the next job is coming from and what

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Speaker 1: he does immediately after that.

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Speaker 4: I think society has a lot of people who think,

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Speaker 4: you know, just to cut a slightly cut above everybody else,

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Speaker 4: not much, but just enough. And I think when he

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Speaker 4: was doing those jobs, the electrical good ones, there was

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Speaker 4: a market. He understood the market. It was almost entrepreneurial.

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Speaker 1: James, I don't want to leave you hang in there

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Speaker 1: not saying anything while we're talking about your dad in

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Speaker 1: amongst all of this, I guess we'll get to whin

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Speaker 1: he's on the run and when you guys first really

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Speaker 1: meet properly for the first time. But have you spoken

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Speaker 1: to your dad about his early life? I mean you

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Speaker 1: only are allowed to speak to him through the prison system,

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Speaker 1: phone system, or face to face while being monitored. Have

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Speaker 1: you had a chance to get to understand him as

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Speaker 1: a young man at all?

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Speaker 5: Not so much, really, Like there's a few questions that

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Speaker 5: I'll ask him here and there, but I'm sure there's

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Speaker 5: a lot more that he'll be telling me once he's released.

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Speaker 5: That time's a very cut short ten phone calls and

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Speaker 5: then the one hour visits, which usually aren't even a

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Speaker 5: full hour.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll talk about that too.

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Speaker 1: Because you're in the documentary, you do express the frustrations

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Speaker 1: at trying to get to know your and it does

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Speaker 1: seem like maybe purposefully your visits are not well planned

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Speaker 1: when it comes to actually you're there and you're waiting,

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Speaker 1: and then your dad will be waiting, and sometimes they

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Speaker 1: put you in places where speakers don't work, and they

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Speaker 1: knew that. And do you feel like there is intervention

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Speaker 1: happening behind the scenes to purposely limit your contact with him,

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Speaker 1: or do you think it's just coincidental?

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Speaker 6: It seems that way. I think it's more so frustration.

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Speaker 5: Like part of me thinks like at the time when

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Speaker 5: I'm angry, I'm like, they're doing this on purpose. But

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Speaker 5: then later on, once I've calmed down, I'm like, well,

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Speaker 5: they don't really have a reason to be destroying that,

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Speaker 5: you know, So I think it just falls into bad

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Speaker 5: communication between the systems sometimes, like you'd have to be

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Speaker 5: pretty spiteful to intentionally, you know, destroy that time we

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Speaker 5: have together for no reason whatsoever. Really, So I think

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Speaker 5: a lot of times when I do think like they

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Speaker 5: are doing it on purpose, I think it's just me

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Speaker 5: just being angry at that time.

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Speaker 4: I think when you, if you ever work in government,

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Speaker 4: you realize that they're very sometimes quite incompetent. And I

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Speaker 4: think James is right, I think that it's probably not spiteful,

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Speaker 4: it's just incompetence.

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Speaker 1: Well, can we talk about that for a bit, because

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Speaker 1: it seems Brendan over his career cashed in on the

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Speaker 1: incompetence of systems that were in place at the time

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Speaker 1: of In his first sort of registered escape, he essentially

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Speaker 1: walked out of a police station because the young man

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Speaker 1: who was supposed to be watching him went to make

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Speaker 1: him a cup of tea. But then, like he managed

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Speaker 1: to escape from two very intense prison systems using things

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Speaker 1: that have been smuggled in. And maybe that's why they

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Speaker 1: keep a very close eye on you, James, because the

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Speaker 1: two escapes that he has done have been using items

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Speaker 1: that were brought in from outside with people he was

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Speaker 1: visiting with. But those systems, Glenn, within the prison that

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Speaker 1: have allowed Brendan and others to escape at the same time,

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Speaker 1: do you think we would be shocked to know that

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Speaker 1: those systems aren't as secure and as tight as what

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Speaker 1: we think they are or think they should be.

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Speaker 4: First of all, I think in relation to his first escape,

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Speaker 4: I know John, the young detective at the time who

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Speaker 4: did that. I wouldn't say there was a different time

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Speaker 4: in the eighties. There was a more of you know,

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Speaker 4: there was almost a you know, you're going to do

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Speaker 4: the right thing. Yeah, there was trust and I'm not

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Speaker 4: saying Brendan brushed it. He took an opportunity. In relation

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Speaker 4: to the other escapes, holding people in custody is very complex,

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Speaker 4: and we go back to the eighties when we're holding

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Speaker 4: him at Premantle Prison. If you look, have you ever

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Speaker 4: been of his Premantal prison is the disgrace you know.

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Speaker 4: I know they closed it in the late eighties early nineties,

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Speaker 4: but it was a nineteenth century prison complex trying to

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Speaker 4: cater for twentieth century prisoners. So I think they were

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Speaker 4: behind the eight ball anyway. In relation to the second escape,

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Speaker 4: no one's done it since and probably no one did

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Speaker 4: it before. So that tells you something about Brendan and

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Speaker 4: his capabilities and his planning In this way, he was

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Speaker 4: a strategic thinker when he was doing things. When we

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Speaker 4: talk about the chase for him, how long he was

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Speaker 4: on the run for, and I know we're going to

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Speaker 4: go there, you've got to remember that the whole time,

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Speaker 4: every police officer for many for the first five years

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Speaker 4: was just Ren would pop up somewhere in Australia, that

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Speaker 4: local police force would deal with it, then he'd pop

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Speaker 4: up somewhere else. It was very, very difficult until we

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Speaker 4: got a national approach to chasing Brendan. And I'm sure

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Speaker 4: we'll talk about that a bit later on.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's touch on that now.

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Speaker 1: The fact that his spree of bank robberies when he

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Speaker 1: did escape prison was across WA, South Australia and Queensland.

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Speaker 1: That kind of worked in his favor right. And I've

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Speaker 1: heard some suggestions too that maybe police officers during that time,

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Speaker 1: during the late eighties early nineties weren't keen to share

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Speaker 1: information with their intero state counterparts.

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Speaker 2: Would you say that's true.

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Speaker 4: I think there was a very siloed approach to policing

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Speaker 4: in the eighties and into the nineties. The states really

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Speaker 4: worked quite separately and it wasn't until something like the

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Speaker 4: National Crime Authority came along that we started cooperating across

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Speaker 4: all areas. But I think the good thing about it

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Speaker 4: is that when we had squads and we had the

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Speaker 4: Armed Robbie Squatt in Perth, we had a very dedicated

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Speaker 4: officer in South Australia, we had the Armed Robbie Squad

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Speaker 4: in Queensland and also Melbourne and Sydney. Those relationships actually

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Speaker 4: started to get us to talk to each other on

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Speaker 4: this one issue. We're always talking to each other, but

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Speaker 4: not about one specific issue. And you know, Brendan Abbott

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Speaker 4: in the initial stages was only known in WA. He

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Speaker 4: wasn't someone who we were looking at elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Can we just mention how well he hid himself while

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Speaker 1: he was on the run for those five years. Even

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Speaker 1: his sister has been interviewed and said that he tapped

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Speaker 1: her on the shoulder at one stage and she didn't

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Speaker 1: recognize him, and he said something like, don't you know

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Speaker 1: who I am?

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Speaker 2: Like you went through a lot to look.

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Speaker 1: Different, to act different, and as far as I can see,

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Speaker 1: had more IDs than any human would ever need to

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Speaker 1: get through, you know, twenty years at alone, five years

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Speaker 1: of moving around the country.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there's an example of why he was a

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Speaker 4: cut about everybody else. He was operating at a different level.

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Speaker 4: He knew that, especially in the eighties and nineties, that

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Speaker 4: it was mainly visual identification. So if he changed this appearance,

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Speaker 4: he dyed his hair, shaped his hair off, grew a beard,

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Speaker 4: wore glasses, he was certainly doing something that no one

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Speaker 4: else particularly was doing, you know, unless we're talking about

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Speaker 4: spy age his agencies or something like that. So you know,

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Speaker 4: that's what allowed him to.

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Speaker 3: Stay on the run.

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Speaker 4: And he also going to remember that Brenda Nabbott wasn't

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Speaker 4: the only criminal running him up in Australia. There was

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Speaker 4: a lot of lesser criminals who were keeping us very busy.

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Speaker 4: So and when you think about his escape from Queensland,

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Speaker 4: he made us very busy, or the police very busy,

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Speaker 4: because there was four or five others who we were

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Speaker 4: busy chasing.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing he did in both escape attempts

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Speaker 1: attempt to have several go with him. The first it

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Speaker 1: was only one, but five of them escaped at one

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Speaker 1: stage from the Queensland prison. But do you think he

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Speaker 1: learned his lesson after that first escape attempt when he

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Speaker 1: is with the other prisoner he's escaped with for quite

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Speaker 1: a long period of time, which if you look at

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Speaker 1: the movie representation of that was it often quite strained relationship.

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Speaker 1: And then the second time around he kind of discarded

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Speaker 1: the majority of those men and had one with him afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Do you think he learnt from that first escape attempt?

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Speaker 4: Oh, I'm sure he did. The one he stayed with Beerschon.

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Speaker 4: I think he actually felt sorry for him. I think

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Speaker 4: there was a law, the loyalty issues that mostly I

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Speaker 4: think we was certainly after the second escape caused him

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Speaker 4: grief and I think ultimately brought him undone.

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Speaker 1: From what I can tell, he was an armed robber,

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Speaker 1: which in itself causes trauma to the victims who are

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Speaker 1: being held up. But I think part of the folklore

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Speaker 1: around Brendan Abbott is that he didn't hurt people, and

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Speaker 1: that he was essentially even polite to police when they

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Speaker 1: did finally apprehend him, and that he was just kind

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Speaker 1: of a nice bloke.

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Speaker 2: Is that true?

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't have called him a nice bloke. I would

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Speaker 4: call him a professional in what he did. He knew

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Speaker 4: that being a dickhead dealing with people would only cause

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Speaker 4: him more grief. When he's doing a robbery, it's important

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Speaker 4: to try and stay in control. It's like anything you

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Speaker 4: do that's high risk, so you're going to control your emotions.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's what he did during the robberies.

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Speaker 4: When we dealt with him, he was very controlled, and

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Speaker 4: that puts him at a kind of almost an even

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Speaker 4: standing with those who are trying to interrogate him or arrested.

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Speaker 4: So I think he was very smart in that regard.

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Speaker 4: His crimes were. How he threatened people with guns and

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Speaker 4: verbally violent has caused a lot of damage and for

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Speaker 4: which he's paying for.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 4: That's something that you know, we've got to be very

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Speaker 4: careful when we mythologize these people who commit these crimes,

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Speaker 4: is that you know we've done it with Ned Kelly.

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Speaker 4: Ned Kelly was a brutal killer, and yet he's an

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Speaker 4: iconic Australian as far as most people are concerned. So

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Speaker 4: we have to be very careful that we don't go

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Speaker 4: down that road. So he did a lot of damage,

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Speaker 4: did a lot of damage to people in relation to.

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Speaker 3: The fear they felt.

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Speaker 4: And if you've ever been at the other end of

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Speaker 4: a gun, you know it what stays with you.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me Claire Murphy today,

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by James Abbott, the son of Brendan Abbot,

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Speaker 1: and Glenn Porter, a retired WA detective who helped put.

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Speaker 2: Abbot behind bars.

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Speaker 1: Up next, I asked James about how his father, Brendan Abbot,

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Speaker 1: met his mother and what it was like visiting his

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Speaker 1: dad in prison for the very first time. James, your

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Speaker 1: dad was on the run when he met your mom.

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Speaker 1: How did they come into contact with each other?

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Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure it's just through a relation with other friends.

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Speaker 5: So I have some childhood friends that we grew up

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Speaker 5: with basically, and I think dad knew the father, So

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Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure that's how they came to be. I

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Speaker 5: haven't really got too much information on that though, but

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Speaker 5: I know they had a close close connection with this family.

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Speaker 1: Were you aware as a young child of who your

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Speaker 1: dad was not Really.

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Speaker 6: Mum never kept anything from me. She's always honest about it.

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Speaker 5: But maybe the kid Obviously wasn't something that I actively

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Speaker 5: thought about. So I had a step father around, So

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Speaker 5: I'm just a kid. I don't really know much about

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Speaker 5: people are in jail. She say, your father's in jail.

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Speaker 2: And do you remember meeting him when you were young?

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Speaker 6: I do, Like the first time I went with my

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Speaker 6: grandmother when I was probably I would have been.

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Speaker 5: Maybe seven or eight, I think it was she I

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Speaker 5: remember that was the first time she ever took me

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Speaker 5: up there to go visiting me in the prison. And

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Speaker 5: I remember going out for that visit because I remember

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Speaker 5: throwing up all over the visiting the visiting room.

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Speaker 6: So that was a wasn't one of my finest moments.

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Speaker 2: But kids just doing kids stuff.

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Speaker 5: Well at that stage back then, with the visits, the

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Speaker 5: prisoner could buy chocolates and lollies and chips or anything

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Speaker 5: for the guests. So I been a kid obviously, just

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Speaker 5: had a whole bunch of stuff in front of me,

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Speaker 5: so I just kept eating and eating and eating until

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Speaker 5: I had nowhere else to go but back out. So yeah,

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Speaker 5: that dad found it pretty amusing because the prison guards

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Speaker 5: had to clean it up.

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Speaker 6: But yeah, I wasn't feeling too crash.

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Speaker 3: Hod.

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Speaker 1: When do you think you became aware of your dad's reputation.

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Speaker 5: It's probably more so my early to mid twenties, Like

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Speaker 5: I knew as I got to like a later teenager

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Speaker 5: distilled it all and everything too. I didn't really have

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Speaker 5: much thought of it or really much interest in anything.

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Speaker 5: But I think it's around the time twenty sixteen when

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Speaker 5: he actually got transferred from Queensland Sorry to Perth is

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Speaker 5: when I kind of took a step back and I

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Speaker 5: was like, I really need to try and put some

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Speaker 5: effort and time into because he's always tried it with

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Speaker 5: me as much as he could.

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Speaker 1: Has he ever spoken to you about his reputation and

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Speaker 1: the fact that he is quite often referred to in

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Speaker 1: media reports as the most notorious bank robber in Australia

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Speaker 1: and obviously the mantle of the postcard bandit has stuck around,

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Speaker 1: even though it's not really as true as what we know,

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Speaker 1: but how does he feel about having that?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, look it's for him.

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Speaker 5: It's like it's not something he ever wanted, like he

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Speaker 5: just want the rob banks basically get that money wasn't anything.

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Speaker 6: He was trying to build some sort of notoriety for.

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Speaker 5: Himself and be well known down the track, which is

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Speaker 5: pretty much what it has come to now. As far

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Speaker 5: as the name of postcard, bet he hates it, but

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Speaker 5: this was something that the media have created and a

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Speaker 5: lot of people still stick by those you know what

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Speaker 5: They've been told like, oh, he used to send postcards.

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Speaker 5: So there's been nearest times where people have mentioned that

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Speaker 5: to me and I correct them. I've heard that many times,

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Speaker 5: and I guess the point is someone does bringing up

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Speaker 5: I don't even bother say anything.

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Speaker 1: Well, Glenn, can we address that? Because James is right.

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Speaker 1: You can read a ton of media reports and the

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Speaker 1: majority of them will say that he's notorious for taunting

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Speaker 1: police by sending postcards from the various locations he was

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Speaker 1: on the run in. But that's not true, and in fact,

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Speaker 1: it was the police who created that story in order

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Speaker 1: to get media coverage. Do we know whose idea that was.

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Speaker 3: Let's be specific about that. Issue it was.

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Speaker 4: The photograph was in my role of film found in

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Speaker 4: the back of the stolen car Richard, Brendan and Reynolds

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Speaker 4: had dumped after a shootout with police, and so that

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Speaker 4: film was developed and in that film there's a picture

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Speaker 4: obviously Reynolds standing outside and many other photos of what

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Speaker 4: they were doing, but outside the drawing up police station.

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Speaker 4: They were released to the media and one of the

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Speaker 4: media outlets was the Australasian Post and they ran with postcards,

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Speaker 4: sending postcards. The thing the police didn't do is they

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Speaker 4: didn't correct it because immediately as an investigator you see this, well,

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Speaker 4: you know this is going to get coverage across the

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Speaker 4: whole of the country because now we've got someone who's

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Speaker 4: robbing banks and sending postcards. That's going to get media coverage,

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Speaker 4: which means more media coverage and more charts is going

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Speaker 4: to be identified. And that's how that rolled along. I

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Speaker 4: don't think it was a specific decision by anyone, but

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Speaker 4: certainly the police did allow it to run.

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Speaker 2: To get some perspective.

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Speaker 1: Glenn, how many banks do we know for sure Brendan

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Speaker 1: Abbott robbed.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's the number he was charged with which at

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Speaker 4: the top of my head is not the number that

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Speaker 4: we suspected him off. But there's also a point that

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Speaker 4: you know, look how long he's inside for, for the

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Speaker 4: banks and the escapes he's done. I mean, how many

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Speaker 4: more banks would you put on them?

438
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 3: Fella? And it makes no difference.

439
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 4: And of course, you know robbing banks people going there

440
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 4: with disguises. It's happened. It's over in two or three minutes.

441
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 4: Your witnesses are struggling to come up with anything concrete

442
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 4: to identify with someone unless you see a tattoo on

443
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 4: a neck or something like that we've seen in the

444
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 4: old black and white bank photos, or you get an informant.

445
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 4: So really you just go with what you've got. I mean,

446
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 4: there's a figure banded around that possibly forty banks.

447
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 3: I find that.

448
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 4: Really high wa At the time that Brendan was running

449
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,239
Speaker 4: was the bank robbery capital of Australia. It was not

450
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 4: uncommon to go to as when I was in the

451
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 4: Armed Robbie Squad, to go to four or five banks

452
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 4: in a day. They've been robbed at gunpoint, so you know,

453
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 4: it was not an unusual offense or an incident.

454
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 1: Did Brendan's interesting way of robbing banks that idea of

455
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: hiding in the ceiling and then dropping in on the

456
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 1: staff as they arrived in the morning when the vault

457
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 1: was open. Did that spur any kind of copycat criminals

458
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 1: to try the same thing.

459
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 3: Not that I'm aware of.

460
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 4: I mean, certainly it was an ingenious way of doing it,

461
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 4: and increased his getaway time by doing it, because you know,

462
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 4: the guys who run through the front door rob the banks.

463
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 4: As soon as they go through the door, the alarm

464
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 4: goes off, cameras start rolling, and so on. If you

465
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 4: drop through the ceiling, then invariably it's unlikely the cameras

466
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 4: are going to go off that the alarm goes off.

467
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 4: If they're quick enough to stop the staff from doing it.

468
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 4: There's no customers in there, so it kind of makes

469
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 4: it easier for them, And I think that was probably

470
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 4: his thinking, is that this is a more efficient way

471
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 4: of rubbing a bank. And of course your bank robbers

472
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 4: generally were addicts who were not very good at what

473
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 4: they did, and certainly no one got the amounts that

474
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 4: he did. I mean, if you were talking about the

475
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 4: average bank robber, they might get five to ten thousand dollars.

476
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 4: I mean, you look at the difference of what Brendan

477
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 4: got by going through the ceiling because he was able

478
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 4: to get access to the bolt without the worry of

479
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 4: police coming there. I think it was a smart way

480
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 4: to do a Hollywood heist.

481
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 2: Did that change bank security?

482
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 1: You think, are you across that, because obviously that's maybe

483
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 1: a flaw that they didn't really consider. It was how

484
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: easy it was to infiltrate the ceiling and then be

485
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: able to spy on the stuff and see when that

486
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: vault door was open.

487
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 2: Did that change things in wa Look?

488
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 3: It did.

489
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 4: It made people certainly more aware of it. And I'm

490
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 4: not saying they didn't put things like movement alarms in

491
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 4: ceilings and so on. Banks changed the way they operated.

492
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 4: The importance of banks meant ultimately that bank robberies just

493
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 4: don't occur anymore. The nineties was the time of the

494
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 4: bank robbery, and I think by the late nineties they

495
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 4: had really trailed off and it turned into things like

496
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 4: video stores and so on. So I think also the

497
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 4: gun buy back had a bit of an impact on

498
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 4: the availability of guns to criminals, and so instead of

499
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 4: seeing guns as much as we did, and they were

500
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 4: everywhere prior to that, it was more like knives and

501
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 4: syringders became the weapon of choice.

502
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: Can we talk through his second escape from Casarina in Queensland,

503
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: because it feels like there was a whole lot going

504
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: on that allowed those five men to escape that day.

505
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: So they've had diamond wyre smuggled in, so they're cutting

506
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: through the bars slowly over a period of time, and

507
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: then it seems that the prison is understaffed. They notice

508
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: that they have the go ahead from Brendan to breakout.

509
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: They all five of them at the same time run.

510
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: No alarms go off until they get to a perimeter

511
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: defence and start cutting through it. Someone's chucked wire cutters

512
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: in over the fence, so they have access to that

513
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: and a gun which no guard has seen happen. They're

514
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: cutting through several layers of fencing and it's only really

515
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 1: when they get to the very final perimeter that a

516
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: guard in a vehicle spots them and get shot at.

517
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 2: That seems like an awful lot.

518
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: Of things to be lined up for them to essentially

519
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: just kind of and there's a getaway car standing nearby

520
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: like that feels like there's a lot of planning that's

521
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: happened there, but there was a lot of things happening

522
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: that made that a bit too easy in sense.

523
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 4: Yes, So, I mean prisons, like every major government department,

524
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 4: are understaff They always are, they have been for years.

525
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 3: It's not a modern phenomena.

526
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 4: And getting the funds to maintain prisons must be extremely hard.

527
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 3: So you've got a minimum.

528
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 4: Staffing, you've got people who may not be as watchful

529
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 4: as they should be, and then you've got someone who

530
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 4: wants to plan. And I mean he had it, had

531
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 4: time to plan this escape from the moment he got there.

532
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 4: It was the same as what he did to pre model.

533
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 4: He watched and he waited, and then the opportunities came up,

534
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 4: and the opportunity of getting the diamond wire, well, he's

535
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 4: organized that to get in it, organized his his co

536
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 4: offenders for people to run with. Having someone on the

537
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 4: outside was a good, a good way to plan it.

538
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 4: So you had to get away vehicle. You had your

539
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 4: go ling verishon with the rifle waiting. They knew there

540
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 4: was going to be a vehicle response. They also knew

541
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 4: that if they pined that vehicle down with gunfire, that

542
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 4: gives him a free reign. So then they've got a

543
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 4: time frame they've got to get over. I'm sure that

544
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 4: the system's changed radically after that escape. And we talk

545
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 4: about Brendan Abbott being a bank robber. Brendan Abbott is one,

546
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 4: if the only one that I know who's escaped from

547
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 4: maximum security twice, and that's pretty amazing, and the authorities

548
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 4: obviously took note of that. When with the length of

549
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 4: his sentences now and the way he's been treated, no

550
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 4: senior politician or prison authority will ever want to give

551
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,959
Speaker 4: him any slack, rightly or wrongly, because for fear that

552
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 4: he does it again, in their.

553
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 3: Head will be on the chopping pot.

554
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 4: So that's created that's created a monster for Brendan as

555
00:27:58,560 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 4: well well.

556
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: I was wondering that the lengthy sentences that he has

557
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: been given, and he's done time in Queensland and now

558
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: in wa do you think partly that is a response

559
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: for making the system look foolish.

560
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 4: Oh, there may be an element that there's always politics involved,

561
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 4: you know, when government officials get involved. But if you

562
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 4: look at the offenses he committed across the different states,

563
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 4: plus two escapes, plus also finishing his original time, in

564
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 4: terms of imprisonment, it probably adds up close to where

565
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 4: we are now. However, there comes a point, and I

566
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 4: think this is where James and I will agree, It

567
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 4: comes a point that what good is occurring here? And

568
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 4: do we have a prison system or a system incarceration

569
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 4: that is what I would call civilized.

570
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: After the break, we explore Withether decades of solitary confinement

571
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: have had a lasting impact on Brandon Abbott and whether

572
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: he's ever felt remorse for the victims of his robberies. Well, James,

573
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you to where you've ever spoken

574
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: to your dad about this? But there's been a lot

575
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: of mentioned, especially from his legal team, that at some

576
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: stage he was the longest held prisoner in solitary confinement

577
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: and that was purely because they were terrified that he

578
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: would escape again. But that's got to have such a

579
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: major impact on his mental health. Has he ever spoken

580
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: about that to you?

581
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 6: Not that it really impacted him.

582
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 5: Like, as far as I'm concerned, when I speak to him,

583
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 5: he seems pretty with it normal. It doesn't really seem defeated,

584
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 5: like he still with his know, his personality's high spirits

585
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 5: stuff too. So even though no matter who you are,

586
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 5: how strong mind as you are, it's going to have

587
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 5: some sort of mental effect on you, Like like I

588
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 5: said to people before, like look at us when we

589
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 5: went through COVID. People had access to the internet, people

590
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 5: had access to friends and family, could speak to on

591
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 5: the phone, do whatever they wanted. But you want to

592
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 5: let to leave the house. People went nuts. You can

593
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 5: do with them, and you were allowed to walk outside

594
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 5: your house. At least he was locked in a room

595
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 5: twenty three hours a day, probably no bigger than most

596
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 5: people's bathroom, with no access to the outside world at all.

597
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 5: Like me myself, Like I'm pretty strong minded, but that

598
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 5: would drive me insane, Like I can't stand just being

599
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 5: at home for a day, not leaving the house. So

600
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 5: no matter who you are, it's going to take some

601
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 5: sort of toll on your brain for sure.

602
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: Now, I know you mentioned that he never set out

603
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: to do what he did for the notoriety and that

604
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: he doesn't love being tagged the postcard bandit, But has

605
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: he ever shown remorse for the trauma that the victims

606
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: of his holdups have gone through?

607
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 5: Of course, like he's mentioned before too, Like you know

608
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 5: at the time, you're not really thinking clearly. You just

609
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 5: got your mindset on the prize of what you're after

610
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 5: he's told me before, after he's done a robbery and stuff.

611
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 5: You know, the adrenaline will be there once it's worn off,

612
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 5: he as you'd actually sit back and you'd have a

613
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 5: strong feeling of depression over you think about what you've

614
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 5: done and where you position. You put other people in

615
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,479
Speaker 5: as well too, But that's just when you have that

616
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 5: mentality where you're hungry for money and just want to

617
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 5: do the wrong thing. It's just you kind of have

618
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 5: that moment and then you'll go and do it again.

619
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 6: But he doesn't.

620
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 5: He's not happy with there's things he may have done

621
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 5: to people, and the truis put people for him. Myself too,

622
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 5: I don't agree with it at all, Like you're going

623
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 5: to do those kind of crimes, you deserve to get

624
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 5: a jail.

625
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 6: Minus argument is now like how long he's supposed to

626
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 6: be serving for that though? You know, so like I.

627
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 5: Don't support what he's done at all, and I don't

628
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 5: support anyone doing that, even myself.

629
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 6: I wouldn't put anyone into that sort of situation.

630
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 5: But it's happened now and just he's just he's copying

631
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 5: it basically for all that.

632
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: Well, let's look at where he currently sits because from

633
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: initial reporting he was due for parole next year, but

634
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: is that now no longer the case that.

635
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 5: Has been changed, So I think there was some missuh

636
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 5: miss lining up with the numbers and stuff there too.

637
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 5: So we've gone to court now trying to look at

638
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 5: time service. That lawyer's coming through the DA and said,

639
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 5: I think there's some way here we can see you.

640
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 5: Your time should have been served already. But in the

641
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 5: process of doing it that it's made someone go over

642
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 5: the numbers and have a proper look. We realize that

643
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 5: the twenty twenty six was an actually correct date anyway, So.

644
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 6: In saying that, though even if nothing.

645
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 5: We hadn't put anything through to the courts now, someone

646
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 5: would have obviously gone over this closer to his proble

647
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 5: day and gone, hold on, this date's incorrect. The original

648
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 5: time was twenty twenty six pro and twenty thirty three

649
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 5: was full term.

650
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 6: I believe it's now been changed to.

651
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 5: Twenty thirty full term and twenty twenty to nine for

652
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 5: parole date, which is only a year apart, which is

653
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 5: I think it's pretty ridiculous. Usually prole dates are a

654
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 5: fair bit before the actual full term, so he's just

655
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 5: finished up a court case now and it's kind of

656
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 5: not ruled in his favor, but the lawyers did know

657
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 5: that that was what was going to happen. So where

658
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 5: it stands now, I think he's had his high security

659
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 5: high security escort status has been dropped now, so he's

660
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 5: gone down to low security. So that's basically the process

661
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 5: of someone getting closer to being released back out into

662
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 5: the system.

663
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: I know that his lawyers have been talking about the

664
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: fact that they feel that he's being unfairly kept behind bars.

665
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 2: What are they asking for?

666
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: And because I understand there was some legal precedents for

667
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: the amount of time he's been given that might have

668
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: come in after he was actually sentenced for those things,

669
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: so it can't. Yeah, and I'm not quite sure what

670
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: the legal terminology is for that, but it shouldn't have

671
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: been applied to him at the time because.

672
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: His crimes are done before that law came in.

673
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 5: I like I said, I walked into those courtrooms when

674
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 5: all this stuff's going on, and some of them as

675
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 5: be speaking Chinese to me. I've got no idea what

676
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 5: is happening. It's just they try and dumb it down

677
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 5: for me a little bit. So when he was first

678
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 5: locked up, and then he broke out of prison. There

679
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 5: was some legislations or something that changed, and when he

680
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 5: came back the time they gave him, they've tried to

681
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 5: put him under the some new I don't understand it completely,

682
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 5: but the lawyers are trying to look into something saying

683
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 5: that the way he was charged shouldn't have been shouldn't

684
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 5: have applied to him because he was already it was already.

685
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 5: It was just an escabe basically. So I think Glenn

686
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 5: may know a bit more about that. I'm not too sure,

687
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 5: but it's just, yeah, it's just a scramble process, and

688
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 5: there's just so much to understand. Nless you're an actual

689
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 5: lawyer yourself, and it takes your weeks to try and

690
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 5: get your head around it properly. Like I'm pretty switched on,

691
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 5: I'm pretty smart, and even me myself, I'm kind of yeah,

692
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 5: just throw.

693
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 1: It around from it, Glenn, can you shed some light

694
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 1: on that for us, like what sentence should he being handed?

695
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 4: Well, the legal system has always been a strange monster

696
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 4: that most people can't understand. Look, the big issue here

697
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 4: is that there's an accumulative effect of all the different

698
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 4: sentences that's Brendan's cop and it becomes I think James

699
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 4: is dead right, becomes a mathematical nightmare. And I think

700
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 4: that it is just I mean, these these sentences on paper,

701
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 4: and the accumulation is something that's probably technically correct. The

702
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 4: sad part about it is it's doesn't take into account

703
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 4: that a man who's committed the offenses that aren't murder,

704
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 4: aren't you know, the if we talk about rape and

705
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 4: murder and those type of things is the worst of

706
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 4: the worst. They're still bad what brend has done, but

707
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 4: he's copying it more than that the people who have

708
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 4: done those offenses, which to me, as you know now

709
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 4: I'm a retired person. Now I just look back and

710
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 4: going is this really fair? And this is where, you know,

711
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 4: I think that the amount of time that Brendan is

712
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 4: he's probably well, all the amount of the isolation he's had,

713
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 4: the fact he was under strict security for so many

714
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 4: years because there was a possible a warrant in South

715
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 4: Australia didn't allow him to have any rehabilitation and so on,

716
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 4: I think there needs to be a look at that,

717
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 4: and but no government is going to do that because

718
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 4: quite frankly, they'll be terrified of the fact that what

719
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 4: if he does his scope again, What if we do

720
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 4: let him out and he commits an armed robbery. The

721
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 4: thing about that is we have to accept that that's

722
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 4: our system.

723
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 3: You know.

724
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 4: I can't say with a crystal ball that he won't

725
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 4: commit a further offenses. But I can't say he will,

726
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 4: So that's our system. There should be an element of

727
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 4: enough is enough?

728
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: James, have you talked to your dad about life potentially

729
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: on the other side of the prison bars, And I

730
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: mean it would be it'd be hard pressed to find

731
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: a bank brunch to rob these days, let's be honest,

732
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: with so many of them shut down across the country.

733
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: But has he allowed himself to think or hope or

734
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: look beyond his prison sentence at this point.

735
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 5: Well, we do have conversations sometimes about what we'll do

736
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 5: when he is to be released. So the plan is

737
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 5: from to come over Sydney and live with me for

738
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 5: a while, But he doesn want to do a bit

739
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 5: of traveling to catch up with small friends and stuff

740
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 5: like that too, which I said I will go with

741
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 5: him for and he wants me to go. The whole

742
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 5: thing of being released these fee past that life of crime.

743
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 5: Even if I'm a bank these days, it's not even

744
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 5: worth it. I'd try to go to bank. Sometimes we

745
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 5: will draw ten thousand dollars out and I'm going to

746
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 5: give them forty eight hours notice to get my own money.

747
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 5: So I don't think roblem banks these days is the

748
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 5: way to go.

749
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 6: He don't.

750
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 5: There's his sixty sixty three and now I'm going on

751
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 5: sixty four. That's just he's past that point of doing

752
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 5: everything like that. I think he's kind of supposed to

753
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 5: have a child life. Now me and him get to

754
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 5: know each other, Like I said, like once he is released,

755
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 5: it's going to be just like meeting someone basically, like

756
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 5: we're best mates now, but there's obviously a lot to

757
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 5: be spoken about time to hang out together too. So

758
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 5: it's like I have the whole my whole life, I've

759
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 5: spent I couldn't say, maybe in more than twenty hours

760
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 5: with him, just like people, people watching, listening, So just

761
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 5: having a time alone.

762
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 6: With him is.

763
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: Do you think he's prepared for the potential amount of

764
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: attention he'll get when he's released. I mean, he is

765
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: known by all these titles and he's very notorious. Do

766
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: you think he would sit down for interviews with people.

767
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: Do you think he would talk about his past himself.

768
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,240
Speaker 6: Well, he knows that kind of stuff's going to happen.

769
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 5: He's going to becoming out of jail over sixty odd

770
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 5: years old, mid sixties, He's going to need some sort

771
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 5: of income, so these kind of things are going to

772
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 5: be benefits to him financially, I guess, so it'd be

773
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 5: an idiot not to really take advantage of that. When

774
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 5: it comes to doing all this stuff. I don't think

775
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 5: it's something you want to rush into straight away. This

776
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 5: is the world has changed a lot, like since he's

777
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 5: been the amount of people on the street, like, it's

778
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 5: going to be very overwhelming for him. There's going to

779
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 5: be too much, too much going on, So I think

780
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 5: it might have to slowly ease his way into that.

781
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: I've spoken to a few people who've been realised from

782
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: prison and they all said that stepping into the modern

783
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: age is really weird because everyone is so busy and

784
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: frantic yea all the time everywhere. So I guess it's

785
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: going to be a pretty big transition for someone to

786
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: step into that for the first time.

787
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 5: Really, Look, he's going to be very overwhelmed with everything's

788
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 5: happening like just me and myself. I hate going shopping

789
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 5: centers and stuff like. I don't like a big, big

790
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 5: crowds people, and I'm around people all the time. I

791
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 5: think she's never really have any understanding of it until

792
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 5: he's actually put him put in the end of it

793
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 5: really bright.

794
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 6: The center, Glen.

795
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: Is there a chance you mentioned that there was an

796
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: outstanding warrant for him because he did rob banks in

797
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,439
Speaker 1: South Australia and he's done no time in a South

798
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: Australian prison. Is there a slim to any chance that

799
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 1: if he was to step foot over the South Australian

800
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: border that he could be arrested again.

801
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 4: There's always a chance of that. It depends on the

802
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 4: Obviously you have to have evidence. But we're talking thirty

803
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 4: years now, witnesses recollections de kay very quickly. Thirty years

804
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 4: later is going to be really, really difficult. And there's

805
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 4: also a public interest, you know, and that's for directors

806
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 4: of public prosecution and so on to the side. I

807
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 4: don't think anyone will be running in or rushing in

808
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 4: to charge Brendan Abbott if he crosses any borders.

809
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 3: But if I was here, I'd go from here to Sydney.

810
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: What was it like to meet and spend time speaking

811
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 1: with James. I mean, he's the son of a man

812
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 1: that you spent so many years chasing and pursuing and

813
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: then finally helpful behind bars. And for you, James, is

814
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: there anything you want to leave us with finally, just

815
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: about your dad and any message that you want people

816
00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: to know about him.

817
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 4: I only met Jane during the filming of the of

818
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 4: the series, and when I first saw him, I thought,

819
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 4: my god, he's a spitting image of his father when

820
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 4: I spoke to him. But James is, Yeah, he's a

821
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 4: knock about blow, aren't you mate?

822
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a stand up fella.

823
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 4: And I think that's really really important that people know that.

824
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 4: You know, he's he's taken the road that his father

825
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 4: should have and I think that's that's a credit to James.

826
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: So there you go, mate, that's.

827
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 2: A lovely thing to say.

828
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 6: Glenn, like a lot of people say, too, Dad, he's

829
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 6: very intelligent. If he went down a.

830
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 5: Different path, I'm sure, like they said, he could have

831
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 5: been a CEO of a company. He just chose different,

832
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 5: different life to go down. And uh, this just this

833
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 5: has put him pretty.

834
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 6: Much in the place he is now.

835
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 5: But as far as like the media goes and everything

836
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 5: like that too, he's just My Dad's a very soft

837
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 5: hearted person.

838
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 6: He didn't have a conversation. He's got a lot of empathy.

839
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 5: He's very caring, like if I've been going through something

840
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 5: in life too, He's always made sure to check on

841
00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 5: check on me if I've told HI about something else

842
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 5: or with a friend of mine for example, too, He'll

843
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 5: always check in and ask about that person if if

844
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 5: he doesn't really know them. He's always interested in people

845
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 5: in my life as well to any friends and partners

846
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 5: and stuff I've been with.

847
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 1: Glenn, James, thank you so much for joining us and

848
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: for chatting about Brendan, and hopefully we can check back

849
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: in with you guys when he's finally released. We appreciate

850
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: you both giving us some of your time. Thank you

851
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: to James and Glenn for helping us tell this story.

852
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: Today.

853
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: You can find a link to the new Binge series

854
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: based on Brendan Abbott's life of crime at the link

855
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: in our show notes. It's called Run the Postcard. Bandit

856
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: documentary will be available to watch on Binge from January seven.

857
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: If you want to see images from this story head

858
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: to our Instagram page at True Crime Conversations. True Crime

859
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 1: Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy. Our senior producer

860
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: is Charlie Blackman. The group executive producer is Alaria Brophy,

861
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: with audio designed by Jacob Brown.

862
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening.

863
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.

864
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

865
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on