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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on Hello, and welcome to No Filter. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kate Langrook, and today, what a magnificent day. We're talking

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Speaker 1: to Rosie O'Donnell, a woman whose name is synonymous with laughter, honesty,

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Speaker 1: and a fearless speaking of her mind. From a childhood

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Speaker 1: marred by tragedy, to breaking records on her groundbreaking talk show,

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Speaker 1: to acting alongside legends like Madonna and Tom Hanks in

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Speaker 1: films like Sleepless in Seattle a league of their own

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Speaker 1: and now and then, Rosie has lived a life in

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Speaker 1: the public eye that few could imagine. Along the way,

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Speaker 1: she's been celebrated, she's been ridiculed and sometimes made the

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Speaker 1: punchline of her own story. She's had famously public feuds,

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Speaker 1: and yes, we talk about her recent appearance in and

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Speaker 1: Just Like That. Who can forget It? In this episode,

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Speaker 1: Rosie opens up about her childhood marked by loss and trauma,

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Speaker 1: the lessons she's carried through decades in showbiz, her experiences

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Speaker 1: as a mother of five, and the moments that have

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Speaker 1: shaped her into the activist performer and person she is today.

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Speaker 1: Here is Rosie O'Donnell. And by the way, she took

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Speaker 1: me by surprise by showing up early. Who does that?

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Speaker 1: Nobody's ever early?

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Speaker 2: I'm always early, are you? Yes? Always? All right?

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Speaker 1: Well, I've got to ask permission, miss miss? Can I

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Speaker 1: go to the dunny? Miss?

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Speaker 2: What does that mean? I don't even know what that means.

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Speaker 1: The dunny is Australian slang and it's the toilet.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, go to the danny by all means.

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Speaker 1: The dunny, the dunny. You need to learn this before

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Speaker 1: you arrive in Australia.

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Speaker 2: Not that you're not kidding. There's so many things I

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Speaker 2: have to learn.

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Speaker 1: What else do you think?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, first of all, I'm terrified of customs

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Speaker 2: because I watch nothing to declare. Oh yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 2: whatever somebody has, like a plum or a grief, they

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Speaker 2: throw them to the ground border security strips from Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that show is terrifies me. And I'm also afraid of

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Speaker 2: the spiders.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, And I.

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Speaker 2: Also like how everyone says yes, no, yes.

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Speaker 1: No, yes, that's really probably our defining national trade.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, where does it come from? Yes?

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Speaker 1: No, yes, no, It just kind of developed, I think,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's one of those things that

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm giving up on the dunning by the way,

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Speaker 1: because I'm so happy to have you here.

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Speaker 2: Well, if you gotta go, you gotta go. I can wait.

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Speaker 1: I was just it was a you know, I was

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Speaker 1: it was a preparatory we It wasn't just in keyth Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't an essential one. It was just like, well,

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Speaker 1: you and I are about to embark on a road

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Speaker 1: trip together of discovery, and I didn't want.

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Speaker 2: To be I didn't want to have to stuff be no.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and I don't want to be disrespectful to you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would understand being a woman as sixty three

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Speaker 2: years old. If you gotta go, you gotta go, you know.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's true at any age, to be honest.

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Speaker 1: You know, remember as were one you're older, you know,

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Speaker 1: as a kid, that thing where you'd stand with your

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Speaker 1: legs twisted together because you just didn't want to go.

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Speaker 1: What is that? Why do you hate going to the

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Speaker 1: toilet when you're little?

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Speaker 2: Well, do you want to know this? I never pee

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Speaker 2: in public?

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Speaker 1: Oh well I would hope not.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean, like in a bathroom in public. I

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Speaker 2: never like, if I'm on this oh that I'm going

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Speaker 2: to take that's twenty two hours, I probably will not

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Speaker 2: pee the whole time.

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Speaker 1: What do you do? Is it a psychological thing that

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Speaker 1: you just.

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Speaker 2: I think it is. It's not like I'm telling myself

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Speaker 2: not to It's almost like when I leave the house,

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Speaker 2: my body goes yeah no, yeah, no, yeah, I did

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Speaker 2: it again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's it. That's exactly.

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Speaker 2: I think that. I was a little kid and my

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Speaker 2: mom used to get very nervous in public bathrooms, and

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Speaker 2: she would put the little toilet paper like you know,

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Speaker 2: and then put the little seat thing on it, that

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Speaker 2: little paper, yeah, and try to make us like hover,

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Speaker 2: which is not.

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Speaker 1: Hovering not easy at guinea image. I can't hop it now.

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Speaker 1: I don't have the I don't have the thigh muscles.

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Speaker 2: Not a hover. No, nor do I I get that

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 1: I'm more of a collapse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I am too. I'll just collapse right

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Speaker 2: on it. But now it's like I never my friends

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Speaker 2: call me the cam because I just never will go

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Speaker 2: to the bathroom in public.

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Speaker 1: Okay, do you think that this is a psychological thing?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: And what do you think it stems from?

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Speaker 2: It stems from my mother making me afraid to go

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Speaker 2: to the bathroom in public. She had five kids, we

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Speaker 2: were all on one year apart, not even ten months,

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Speaker 2: Irish twins, and she would just get very overwhelmed when

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Speaker 2: we would go to the bathroom, and she would put

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Speaker 2: down all this toilet paper and everything. And so I

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Speaker 2: got it in my head that it's a very trying

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Speaker 2: thing to do. And like, even the whole time I

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Speaker 2: was at school, I never went to the bathroom. I

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Speaker 2: would go in the morning. I would when I do

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Speaker 2: a movie. If I don't have my own bathroom in

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Speaker 2: my trailer, I will wait the whole day. And it's

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Speaker 2: not like I feel like I have to go. It's

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Speaker 2: not like I'm holding it in. It's it's almost like

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Speaker 2: my body goes, Nope, don't do it.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting because you lost your mom young.

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Speaker 2: When you.

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Speaker 1: Thread the pieces of her together, because I think always

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Speaker 1: as a child, you're always trying to work out the

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Speaker 1: tapestry of yourself, and often that comes from your parents.

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Speaker 2: Yes, when you.

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Speaker 1: Have reminiscences like that of her, how much of a

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Speaker 1: complete picture do you have? Do you think in her absence?

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Speaker 2: Really not a very good one I was ten, and

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Speaker 2: I have a child's image of her still, like I

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Speaker 2: don't know her as a woman. I never got to

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Speaker 2: see her age, I never got to see her go

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Speaker 2: through menopause, have children, your children, have become a grandparent.

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Speaker 2: I never got to do that. So I have like

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Speaker 2: a very idealized childlike view of my mother, and I've

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Speaker 2: spent a lot of time trying to get to know

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Speaker 2: her as an adult. She was an only child, and

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Speaker 2: when she died, we never mentioned her again, Like her

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Speaker 2: name was never spoken. Nobody said the word mommy in

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Speaker 2: the house. Nobody you know, we we we came over

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Speaker 2: to Ireland after she died. My father took five kids

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Speaker 2: who were grieving to the north of Ireland, not quite

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Speaker 2: Northern Ireland, but like Duney Gall and we never mentioned

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Speaker 2: her again. And when we came home from Ireland after

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Speaker 2: the summer, all of her stuff was taken out of

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Speaker 2: the house, so it was like she disappeared. Now at

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Speaker 2: that time.

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Speaker 1: Who had done that, Rosie? Was that like auntie neighbors? Yes,

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Speaker 1: and at your father's behatoor, yes exactly, And so obviously

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Speaker 1: he was not someone to share with you kids' mom.

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Speaker 2: No, there was no Oprah Winfrey Show to learn about grieving.

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Speaker 2: You know, there was no nobody talking about the trauma

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Speaker 2: that that puts kids through. Right, it happened. And then

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Speaker 2: we went to church one, you know, a month after

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Speaker 2: she died. And you know how in church they say

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Speaker 2: and the parishioners who have gone to their rest, and

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Speaker 2: then they would say the name, and they said, my

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Speaker 2: mother's name is my name Roseanne O'Donnell. And my brothers

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Speaker 2: started crying, and my father got up and took us

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Speaker 2: out of the church and we never went back to church.

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Speaker 2: And my mother was the head of the parish council.

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Speaker 2: She was very into Catholicism, so we were sort of

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Speaker 2: robbed of every memory and smell and photo and instance

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Speaker 2: of her. I only have like three photos of her,

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Speaker 2: you know, and it's taken me a long time. This

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Speaker 2: show that I'm doing when I come to Australia has

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Speaker 2: a lot to do with my mom. It starts and

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Speaker 2: ends with her, the whole show. And it's sort of,

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Speaker 2: you know, me coming to terms with being a motherless

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Speaker 2: child and then becoming the mother And how do you

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Speaker 2: learn to do that? What guideposts do you follow? What

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Speaker 2: lanterns are lit in the caverns of your soul, you know,

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Speaker 2: to get you through when you haven't had that or

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Speaker 2: seen that.

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Speaker 1: So you were very young, yeah, you were eleven, nearly eleven.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was right before my eleventh birthday. So she

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Speaker 2: died on Saint Patrick's Day and four days later I

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Speaker 2: turned eleven.

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Speaker 1: How was that birthday horrible?

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Speaker 2: Because the funeral was on my birthday and everyone who

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Speaker 2: came to that afterwards had gifts for me. So here

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Speaker 2: I was grieving my mother and being given presents and

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Speaker 2: it just felt so wrong, you know. And my little brother,

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Speaker 2: Timmy is one day before me, so he and I

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Speaker 2: his birthday was on the wake and my birthday was

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Speaker 2: on the funeral, and we were besieged with gifts that year,

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Speaker 2: and both of us never really have loved our birthdays since.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because of course people want to show and

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Speaker 1: would have wanted to show you their love, yes, and

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Speaker 1: to show you how they were feeling. And it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: isn't it that we tend to want to do that

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Speaker 1: with things, But things given in the face of like

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Speaker 1: such a devastating emotional catastrophe actually become tainted.

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Speaker 2: Totally empty. There was no you know, I remember my

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Speaker 2: brother Timmy got the gunfire at the Ok Corral, which

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Speaker 2: was a toy that we had both really wanted where

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Speaker 2: you had like a gun like and you had to shoot.

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Speaker 2: It was in plastic shoot like get a carnival like

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Speaker 2: knock down the picture of right. And I remember he

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Speaker 2: got it and we both looked at it and looked

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Speaker 2: at each other, and we never really played with it,

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Speaker 2: even though that was the toy that we wanted, you know.

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Speaker 2: So it was very difficult to grow up in a

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Speaker 2: place where you suffer a loss and then you're not

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Speaker 2: allowed to discuss it with anyone. You weren't even allowed

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Speaker 2: to say the word mom. So when I would get

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Speaker 2: on the phone and somebody would call and say, it's

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Speaker 2: your mother home, I'd say, no, she's out. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: tell anyone until I was in college that my mother

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Speaker 2: had died.

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Speaker 1: And what was the atmosphere with your dad in the

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Speaker 1: house where your mother was gone.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, he comes from a traditional Irish Catholic

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Speaker 2: family where emotions are not encouraged or displayed, you know,

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Speaker 2: where drinking is the way you get through things, where

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Speaker 2: talking and emoting were not his forte. So he was

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Speaker 2: very kind of overwhelmed and didn't know what to do

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Speaker 2: with these five small children. That I remember when when

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Speaker 2: he told us that she died, My little brother Timmy said,

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Speaker 2: who was only five, said who's going to take care

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Speaker 2: of us now? And I said daddy, And he said,

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Speaker 2: who's that? Who's that? At five years old? Because my

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Speaker 2: mother was the one who took care of us and

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Speaker 2: my father was at work. You know, back in the

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Speaker 2: early seventies, you know, men put on a suit and

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Speaker 2: went to work and didn't like their life and came

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Speaker 2: home and often had a couple of drinks and didn't

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Speaker 2: interact with their kids very much, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: it was just him, and it was tough.

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Speaker 1: Who stepped up into the role, did anybody?

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Speaker 2: Yes, the neighbors. So there was my mother best friend

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Speaker 2: across the street, Leoni, and she became the mother in

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Speaker 2: our family. Although for me, I went across the street

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Speaker 2: diagonal to Jackie, who was my best friend since I'm

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Speaker 2: three when I was three, knocked on her door and

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Speaker 2: I said to the mother, do you have anyone here

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Speaker 2: who's three? And she said yes, And we've been best

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Speaker 2: friends ever since. And that woman who's still alive she's

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Speaker 2: ninety years old. She took me in and got me

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Speaker 2: my first bra and sanitary napkins and all the things

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Speaker 2: that a kid needed who didn't have a mother, and

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Speaker 2: she filled in. And then there were teachers at school

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Speaker 2: who did that. You know, I was a kid who

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Speaker 2: was longing for motherly connection. So all my friends' mothers,

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Speaker 2: my friends would get mad at me. We were teenagers,

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Speaker 2: and I would always like suck up to the mom's

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Speaker 2: and they were having that normal reaction of pushing away

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Speaker 2: from your when you're a teenager. But I never lived

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Speaker 2: through that, nor did I want to do it, nor

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Speaker 2: was I prepared when my own children went through that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, because you'd not experienced it.

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Speaker 2: No, And because I couldn't imagine not wanting your mother around,

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Speaker 2: because that was the biggest need that I had in

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Speaker 2: my life, was wanting a mother. There.

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Speaker 1: Do you think you're because running parallel with your like

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Speaker 1: so many so many professional achievements, but with you, there's

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Speaker 1: been a very strong current of family. Do you think

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Speaker 1: that's where that desire came from to forge your own family?

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Speaker 2: And you know, my friends always were concerned and curious

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Speaker 2: and questioning about whether they wanted to be a parent.

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Speaker 2: But I knew it right from the beginning. I knew

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Speaker 2: that I would have a lot of kids. When I

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Speaker 2: figured out that I was gay, I knew that I

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Speaker 2: adopt a lot of kids. It was never a barrier

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Speaker 2: to me wanting to get my goal, which is to

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Speaker 2: have a family and make the family the center of

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Speaker 2: my life. Now you know, I'm The next show that

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Speaker 2: I'm doing is going to be called bad parenting because

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Speaker 2: I parented my children with the idea that a ten

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Speaker 2: or eleven year old would have about what made a

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Speaker 2: perfect mom. It wasn't an adult understanding of parenting. It

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Speaker 2: was a child's need. And so I'm going to do

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Speaker 2: a show that that's basically about what I learned at

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Speaker 2: sixty three, what I have accumulated, the knowledge of what

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Speaker 2: I did wrong, you know, and why I made those

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Speaker 2: sort of errors that you know, every person, every parent

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Speaker 2: feels that. I believe. But when you were missing a

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Speaker 2: mother and wanted nothing but to be the perfect mother,

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Speaker 2: you're pretty harsh on you yourself for the ways that

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Speaker 2: you didn't succeed.

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Speaker 1: When you say a parenting like an eleven year old

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Speaker 1: would say, an ideal parent, is that like lots of

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Speaker 1: snacks being overly like not disciplining. How does that manifest.

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Speaker 2: Not disciplining not forcing them to follow through? So if

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Speaker 2: they signed up for gymnastics and they didn't want to go,

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Speaker 2: I would say, you don't have to go, and my

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Speaker 2: partner would say, well, that's ridiculous, they have to go.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, why do they have to go?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: I didn't want them to feel pain, and I tried

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Speaker 2: to avoid it at all costs, and I smoothed the

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00:16:49,445 --> 00:16:52,085
Speaker 2: road in front of them too much so that the

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Speaker 2: tiniest bump in adulthood became a big trauma for them.

285
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Speaker 2: They weren't used to being a survivor because I made

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00:17:01,245 --> 00:17:06,485
Speaker 2: it too easy. And with my older two it's much

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Speaker 2: more pronounced because I was at the height of my

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Speaker 2: fame and uh easy they you know. Yeah. And when

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Speaker 2: you're when you're famous and you take four little kids,

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Speaker 2: you know, stare step to the mall and they're all

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Speaker 2: under six, everyone stops you and says, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: those kids are so gorgeous. But when you're famous and

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Speaker 2: they ignore the kids, everyone comes to you, and that

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Speaker 2: does something because kids need to be sort of the

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Speaker 2: center of the world when they're that age. And when

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Speaker 2: you have a famous parent, you're definitely not and it

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Speaker 2: affects them, I think in later life, and my older

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Speaker 2: too much more than the younger two. And then I

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Speaker 2: have the little one you know, who's uh twelve, yes

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Speaker 2: that's ten yeah, ten years younger, yes, exactly ten years

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Speaker 2: younger than my former youngest.

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Speaker 1: But you know, the parenting mistakes which I think often

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Speaker 1: we recognize in retrospect. I have four children, and I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of in the seek of it still. It's one

305
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Speaker 1: of those things where you think it's going to abate.

306
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Speaker 2: It just it seems it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: It just guys on and on.

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Speaker 2: Well, I never knew that children would need their parents

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Speaker 2: past teenage teenager. So when my like thirty year old

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Speaker 2: son calls me and needs me as much as he

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Speaker 2: did when he was seven, I'm stunned because I didn't

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Speaker 2: have that. So I just sort of took care of

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Speaker 2: myself and we were all, you know, very resilient and

314
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Speaker 2: very able to tackle obstacles because there were so many.

315
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Speaker 2: But when my kids now maybe have a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a failure to launch more, you know, the older two,

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Speaker 2: especially when they have challenges in their life, I think

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Speaker 2: this is all on me, you know, not so much

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Speaker 2: with the two ones who are just a little bit younger,

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Speaker 2: but weren't in the height of my face.

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Speaker 1: So you're talking about Parker and Chelsea, the two eldest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, they're like thirty and twenty eight, and the

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Speaker 2: two of them have struggled, I think more than the

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Speaker 2: two younger ones. And it's almost like I was a

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Speaker 2: different parent. I had left my show when Blake was

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Speaker 2: a baby. I had Vivi after I was on TV,

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Speaker 2: and it was a different reality for them than it

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Speaker 2: was for the older kids.

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Speaker 1: Well, every child has a different experience of being their parents' child.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there's some Nate for Ghazy, you know that comic Ya.

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Speaker 2: He's very very you know, and he does a great

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Speaker 2: funny bit. I'm not going to paraphrase it, but something

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Speaker 2: like apparently my younger brothers were raised by their best friends.

334
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Speaker 2: And I thought that is so funny because I understand that.

335
00:20:05,965 --> 00:20:09,165
Speaker 2: I get that, you know, how you're you're raised with

336
00:20:09,765 --> 00:20:14,325
Speaker 2: different parents and their different levels of growth and maturity.

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Speaker 2: And you know, when my first kid was born, I

338
00:20:17,725 --> 00:20:24,085
Speaker 2: was afraid. I was nervous, I was worried, I was anxious,

339
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Speaker 2: and by the fourth kid, you're not, you know, it's

340
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Speaker 2: not you were an old hand at it. And I

341
00:20:31,085 --> 00:20:35,085
Speaker 2: think you can definitely tell that they had different parents.

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Speaker 1: Well, we say, in our family, our youngest learned to

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Speaker 1: eat by picking up the crumbs the others dropped.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 1: They're very resilient, and they kind of have to be

346
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Speaker 1: because you're outnumbered. You were very outnumbered.

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Speaker 2: Yes, when you.

348
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Speaker 1: Were talking about your upbringing and your quest to find

349
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Speaker 1: someone to feel that your mother shaped hole in your

350
00:21:00,925 --> 00:21:08,365
Speaker 1: life because you also were gay, At what point did

351
00:21:08,405 --> 00:21:13,605
Speaker 1: you really did you always know and who was the

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Speaker 1: person that you could go to to share that with,

353
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Speaker 1: if anyone?

354
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Speaker 2: Well, I think my mother knew, you know, because I

355
00:21:21,565 --> 00:21:24,165
Speaker 2: would never wear a dress, I would, you know. And

356
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Speaker 2: I had a sister who's one year younger than me,

357
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Speaker 2: had the same exact upbringing, and she's straight as can be,

358
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Speaker 2: and she had a mother die when she was nine,

359
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Speaker 2: you know, and I was almost eleven, so not that different.

360
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Speaker 2: But my older brother, one year older than me, is

361
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Speaker 2: also gay, and I think my mother knew that both

362
00:21:45,325 --> 00:21:48,485
Speaker 2: of us were gay and different. And when I wanted

363
00:21:48,485 --> 00:21:50,925
Speaker 2: to play the drums and she was in the hospital

364
00:21:51,085 --> 00:21:54,485
Speaker 2: fifth grade, I needed a permission slip, and she didn't

365
00:21:54,525 --> 00:21:57,365
Speaker 2: want me to because she didn't think girls should play drums,

366
00:21:57,885 --> 00:21:59,605
Speaker 2: and that a lot of things that I liked to

367
00:21:59,645 --> 00:22:02,925
Speaker 2: do were boy things like play sports and ride a

368
00:22:02,965 --> 00:22:07,285
Speaker 2: skateboard and learn to juggle and balance things on my hand,

369
00:22:07,405 --> 00:22:11,165
Speaker 2: like I did what were traditionally at the time more

370
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Speaker 2: boyish things, and I think it worried her. I think

371
00:22:15,285 --> 00:22:18,725
Speaker 2: it concerned her. But then she was gone, and I

372
00:22:18,885 --> 00:22:23,165
Speaker 2: kind of always knew, like I was never interested in

373
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Speaker 2: any way in finding out anything about the boys in

374
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Speaker 2: my class, but the girls, I totally wanted to know

375
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Speaker 2: all their secrets, all their stories. I wanted to meet

376
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Speaker 2: their parents. I wanted to, you know. And without even

377
00:22:37,685 --> 00:22:40,245
Speaker 2: really knowing that that meant that I was gay. My

378
00:22:40,445 --> 00:22:45,205
Speaker 2: focus and my interest was always female, and I knew

379
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Speaker 2: that from a very young age. And when I got

380
00:22:48,325 --> 00:22:51,125
Speaker 2: to be of the age where you had to start

381
00:22:51,205 --> 00:22:53,365
Speaker 2: kissing boys, I knew I didn't want to do that.

382
00:22:54,205 --> 00:22:56,805
Speaker 2: I knew that if I was going to kiss anyone,

383
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Speaker 2: even though at the time it seemed like unfathomable because

384
00:23:01,845 --> 00:23:04,925
Speaker 2: there was no one gay on TV in nineteen seventy three.

385
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Speaker 2: There was no one, and the women who were gay

386
00:23:08,765 --> 00:23:12,445
Speaker 2: like Martinez in Avtulova and Billy Jean King had press

387
00:23:12,565 --> 00:23:17,965
Speaker 2: conferences announcing that they weren't because those were the top yes.

388
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Speaker 2: And I remember it vividly, vividly that they said no,

389
00:23:21,765 --> 00:23:24,965
Speaker 2: they were not, and that they you know that there

390
00:23:25,325 --> 00:23:27,965
Speaker 2: were rumors about them, but they made a big point

391
00:23:28,005 --> 00:23:31,405
Speaker 2: of saying they were not gay. And I remember being

392
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Speaker 2: a gay kid thinking, oh my god, there's no one

393
00:23:34,845 --> 00:23:38,645
Speaker 2: out there. There's no one out there who's like and

394
00:23:38,685 --> 00:23:41,485
Speaker 2: it was very lonely and isolating. But when I got

395
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Speaker 2: my license, I was sixteen years old. You get your

396
00:23:44,645 --> 00:23:46,965
Speaker 2: drivers permit and you can drive on your own, like

397
00:23:47,005 --> 00:23:50,965
Speaker 2: within twenty miles of your house. And I would drive

398
00:23:51,005 --> 00:23:53,325
Speaker 2: in the car and say out loud, I am gay,

399
00:23:54,325 --> 00:23:56,485
Speaker 2: I am gay, because that was the only place I

400
00:23:56,525 --> 00:23:59,045
Speaker 2: could do it was in the car where nobody else

401
00:23:59,165 --> 00:24:01,845
Speaker 2: in the car with me and I was alone. And

402
00:24:01,885 --> 00:24:04,285
Speaker 2: that's how I sort of got myself used to the

403
00:24:04,365 --> 00:24:07,285
Speaker 2: fact that this was who I was. And then I

404
00:24:07,325 --> 00:24:11,765
Speaker 2: had a teacher in seven grade who was twenty seven

405
00:24:11,805 --> 00:24:16,965
Speaker 2: and I was thirteen, and she mothered me. She's the

406
00:24:17,005 --> 00:24:19,605
Speaker 2: first person to say I love you to me. She

407
00:24:19,685 --> 00:24:22,245
Speaker 2: was the first person to give me a hug Oh.

408
00:24:23,245 --> 00:24:25,445
Speaker 2: I opened a school and named it after her. I

409
00:24:25,485 --> 00:24:28,645
Speaker 2: still have it in New York City, the Maravell Arts Center.

410
00:24:29,325 --> 00:24:31,845
Speaker 2: And she took me into her family, and she was

411
00:24:31,885 --> 00:24:35,365
Speaker 2: the first person I told, and she was absolutely fine

412
00:24:35,405 --> 00:24:38,045
Speaker 2: with it. She was like, you know, you can't wish

413
00:24:38,045 --> 00:24:40,245
Speaker 2: that you had blue eyes. If you have brown eyes,

414
00:24:40,765 --> 00:24:43,325
Speaker 2: you can't wish it away. Ro just be who you are,

415
00:24:43,685 --> 00:24:46,885
Speaker 2: you know, And at that time, in nineteen seventy five,

416
00:24:47,005 --> 00:24:51,845
Speaker 2: that was very keeling and very freeing. And she too

417
00:24:51,925 --> 00:24:54,005
Speaker 2: died of breast cancer like my mother did.

418
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Speaker 1: How much longer after you knew her.

419
00:24:57,645 --> 00:25:01,445
Speaker 2: She died when right before Vivi was born, So that

420
00:25:01,565 --> 00:25:04,285
Speaker 2: was twenty two years ago. So I was a grown

421
00:25:04,325 --> 00:25:09,365
Speaker 2: adult in a relationship with children. But she died, and

422
00:25:09,365 --> 00:25:11,765
Speaker 2: you had two children that are my god kids, and

423
00:25:12,805 --> 00:25:16,405
Speaker 2: I'm still very involved in their life. And you know,

424
00:25:16,605 --> 00:25:18,765
Speaker 2: at the funeral, I sat in the front row with

425
00:25:18,845 --> 00:25:22,605
Speaker 2: the family. And she was totally a mother figure. Her

426
00:25:22,645 --> 00:25:28,805
Speaker 2: and Jackie's mother, Bernice really raised me in a maternal, loving,

427
00:25:29,525 --> 00:25:30,365
Speaker 2: consistent way.

428
00:25:34,565 --> 00:25:39,245
Speaker 1: Coming up next, Rosie recalls her first forays into romance,

429
00:25:39,805 --> 00:25:46,325
Speaker 1: when shyness and uncertainty about expressing herself made things complicated

430
00:25:49,565 --> 00:25:55,205
Speaker 1: when you started to feel romantic. So being a child

431
00:25:55,245 --> 00:25:57,885
Speaker 1: and knowing that you're into drumming is one thing. But

432
00:25:57,965 --> 00:26:00,005
Speaker 1: you know when you hit the point, as you said,

433
00:26:00,045 --> 00:26:03,885
Speaker 1: you weren't interested in kissing boys, when you realize that

434
00:26:03,965 --> 00:26:07,965
Speaker 1: your interest in girls was romantic, or when you felt

435
00:26:08,005 --> 00:26:13,205
Speaker 1: that first really strong romantic urge for a woman. When

436
00:26:13,325 --> 00:26:13,565
Speaker 1: was that.

437
00:26:15,045 --> 00:26:17,325
Speaker 2: I think it was with Mary Rose when I was

438
00:26:17,365 --> 00:26:21,045
Speaker 2: in eleventh or tenth or eleventh grade, and we were

439
00:26:21,125 --> 00:26:24,165
Speaker 2: very good friends. And she's not gay, she's married and

440
00:26:24,205 --> 00:26:27,005
Speaker 2: has children. But I was in love with her, There's

441
00:26:27,045 --> 00:26:31,325
Speaker 2: no doubt about it. But I did not ever take

442
00:26:31,365 --> 00:26:33,725
Speaker 2: it to any kind of next level, nor did I

443
00:26:33,885 --> 00:26:36,605
Speaker 2: think that I ever would. It wasn't until I was

444
00:26:36,645 --> 00:26:41,165
Speaker 2: in college, my freshman year of college, that I first

445
00:26:41,365 --> 00:26:44,525
Speaker 2: fell in love love with a girl who was also

446
00:26:44,645 --> 00:26:49,245
Speaker 2: not gay. And it was unrequited, and but I was

447
00:26:49,285 --> 00:26:52,205
Speaker 2: as in love as I've ever been with anyone. And

448
00:26:52,285 --> 00:26:56,525
Speaker 2: I would, you know, I would see her everywhere in

449
00:26:56,605 --> 00:26:59,365
Speaker 2: the college. I would like see some She was the

450
00:26:59,405 --> 00:27:02,485
Speaker 2: first person I ever saw who had a hooded sweatshirt

451
00:27:02,525 --> 00:27:06,365
Speaker 2: with no zipper, and I remember thinking that was the

452
00:27:06,485 --> 00:27:10,245
Speaker 2: coolest thing in the world, you know, and Uh. She

453
00:27:10,365 --> 00:27:13,045
Speaker 2: has since moved to Norway, and and we had a

454
00:27:13,125 --> 00:27:16,445
Speaker 2: chance to discuss this when we were older, and she's

455
00:27:16,485 --> 00:27:21,885
Speaker 2: sort of apologized because she wasn't really understanding what it

456
00:27:22,005 --> 00:27:25,085
Speaker 2: meant to me. And and uh, even though we were

457
00:27:25,245 --> 00:27:27,325
Speaker 2: so close and we used to sleep in the same bed,

458
00:27:27,365 --> 00:27:31,485
Speaker 2: but never do anything because I was so afraid and

459
00:27:31,645 --> 00:27:37,085
Speaker 2: so you know, really catholic, kind of prudish, you know,

460
00:27:37,205 --> 00:27:40,685
Speaker 2: I had no uh, I had no game, I had

461
00:27:40,725 --> 00:27:43,645
Speaker 2: no moxie and I still don't. And people I've been

462
00:27:43,685 --> 00:27:45,165
Speaker 2: with are like, you know, there's not a lot of

463
00:27:45,245 --> 00:27:48,045
Speaker 2: rosie O'Donnell in you because they have an image that

464
00:27:48,165 --> 00:27:51,205
Speaker 2: I'm like this tough New Yorker that will you know,

465
00:27:51,405 --> 00:27:57,005
Speaker 2: be very kind of aggressive, and I'm I'm the opposite.

466
00:27:57,365 --> 00:28:01,205
Speaker 2: I'm like totally the bush, you know. I'm I'm not

467
00:28:01,765 --> 00:28:04,485
Speaker 2: someone I always like want to cuddle, I want to

468
00:28:04,605 --> 00:28:08,285
Speaker 2: like It's it's pretty funny that that the women that

469
00:28:08,365 --> 00:28:11,165
Speaker 2: I've been with have all said, you know, people would

470
00:28:11,205 --> 00:28:15,045
Speaker 2: be shocked to find out how you actually are versus

471
00:28:15,085 --> 00:28:18,165
Speaker 2: your image, you know. And I never tried to have

472
00:28:18,205 --> 00:28:20,965
Speaker 2: an image that was different than I was. It just

473
00:28:21,605 --> 00:28:26,085
Speaker 2: you know, from New York, tough boyish. You know, people

474
00:28:26,205 --> 00:28:31,165
Speaker 2: just assume strike told very not exactly, and it's very

475
00:28:31,285 --> 00:28:32,765
Speaker 2: not how I actually am.

476
00:28:33,165 --> 00:28:36,845
Speaker 1: So if I think about it now, your most recent

477
00:28:36,925 --> 00:28:42,125
Speaker 1: foraight that we've all enjoyed you in and just like that, Yes,

478
00:28:42,925 --> 00:28:46,485
Speaker 1: that's not a million miles removed from you. Then for

479
00:28:46,605 --> 00:28:50,565
Speaker 1: you to play no, it's none who pops up in

480
00:28:50,965 --> 00:28:58,405
Speaker 1: New York City, very innocent Stana Broadway. Yeah, yeah, had.

481
00:28:58,245 --> 00:29:01,725
Speaker 2: Never been sexual. And you know, and I'm friends with

482
00:29:01,805 --> 00:29:04,525
Speaker 2: Cynthia and have been for many years, and it wasn't

483
00:29:04,565 --> 00:29:06,885
Speaker 2: acting to be in love with her. I you know,

484
00:29:07,005 --> 00:29:08,805
Speaker 2: I've been in love with her for a long time,

485
00:29:08,925 --> 00:29:12,605
Speaker 2: not in any again romantic or sexual way, but just

486
00:29:12,965 --> 00:29:14,885
Speaker 2: in love with who she is as a person, in

487
00:29:14,925 --> 00:29:18,365
Speaker 2: her politics and the way she loves her family and

488
00:29:18,405 --> 00:29:22,365
Speaker 2: her wife and carries herself in the world. So Michael

489
00:29:22,405 --> 00:29:25,805
Speaker 2: Patrick King, who created and writes that show, wrote it

490
00:29:25,845 --> 00:29:28,485
Speaker 2: for me because he knows me. We knew each other

491
00:29:28,525 --> 00:29:30,645
Speaker 2: since we did stand up together when we were in

492
00:29:30,685 --> 00:29:34,085
Speaker 2: our twenties. So he wrote that part for me knowing

493
00:29:34,245 --> 00:29:36,525
Speaker 2: that it wouldn't be a lot of acting on my.

494
00:29:36,605 --> 00:29:39,565
Speaker 1: Part, I know, which you all very capable of.

495
00:29:39,645 --> 00:29:42,885
Speaker 2: By the way, Yes, I love you know, literally, my

496
00:29:43,005 --> 00:29:45,365
Speaker 2: goal was always to be an actress, never to be

497
00:29:45,405 --> 00:29:49,245
Speaker 2: a stand up comic. It always was to act. You know.

498
00:29:49,445 --> 00:29:52,925
Speaker 2: I loved I loved getting to do all the roles

499
00:29:53,005 --> 00:29:56,805
Speaker 2: that I have, and I kind of knew in my

500
00:29:56,965 --> 00:29:59,125
Speaker 2: forties that it would take till I was in my

501
00:29:59,245 --> 00:30:03,005
Speaker 2: sixties to start getting those kinds of roles, the Geraldine

502
00:30:03,005 --> 00:30:08,365
Speaker 2: Page roles, the Colleendhurst roles, the you know, serious actress,

503
00:30:08,525 --> 00:30:11,885
Speaker 2: dramatic act actress. And I've been very lucky that I've

504
00:30:11,965 --> 00:30:15,405
Speaker 2: had the opportunity to do that since i've been over sixty.

505
00:30:15,685 --> 00:30:19,605
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because when that was so audacious,

506
00:30:19,645 --> 00:30:23,605
Speaker 1: that scene in just like that, that meeting the whole

507
00:30:24,245 --> 00:30:30,005
Speaker 1: like it was properly shocking. And one of the questions

508
00:30:30,085 --> 00:30:32,445
Speaker 1: as a viewer at the time, not even aware that

509
00:30:32,485 --> 00:30:35,125
Speaker 1: I was going to have this conversation with you, was

510
00:30:35,725 --> 00:30:40,525
Speaker 1: did Rosie, Like, did you workshop that with the writers?

511
00:30:40,725 --> 00:30:45,805
Speaker 1: Did you workshop that with the creators? It came fully intact.

512
00:30:45,885 --> 00:30:48,125
Speaker 1: And how was it when you first saw the script

513
00:30:48,325 --> 00:30:53,165
Speaker 1: and you went my first sexual encounter as this nun

514
00:30:53,325 --> 00:30:56,885
Speaker 1: is going to be with Miranda, Like, how were you

515
00:30:56,925 --> 00:30:57,885
Speaker 1: when you read the script?

516
00:30:58,405 --> 00:31:01,445
Speaker 2: I was fine, you know, I had done Niptock and

517
00:31:01,725 --> 00:31:05,205
Speaker 2: Julian McMahon, who passed away recently. We had a sex

518
00:31:05,405 --> 00:31:08,805
Speaker 2: in that movie and that show, and so I had

519
00:31:08,845 --> 00:31:13,365
Speaker 2: done a sex scene before, and I wasn't like nervous.

520
00:31:13,445 --> 00:31:16,365
Speaker 2: But I will tell you this, Michael Patrick King said

521
00:31:16,405 --> 00:31:18,725
Speaker 2: when he was directing it, you guys are in bed,

522
00:31:18,765 --> 00:31:20,645
Speaker 2: can you be a little more like you're in bed?

523
00:31:20,685 --> 00:31:25,565
Speaker 2: And I was like, you know, I can't really.

524
00:31:25,525 --> 00:31:28,485
Speaker 1: It was too mighty or too no that I.

525
00:31:28,565 --> 00:31:31,805
Speaker 2: Was too shy, right, I was too you know. I

526
00:31:31,925 --> 00:31:34,405
Speaker 2: wasn't like if you're like you see people in a

527
00:31:34,485 --> 00:31:37,805
Speaker 2: sex scene, and people who have no issues kind of

528
00:31:37,845 --> 00:31:42,765
Speaker 2: with being a sexual, a lee alive person are able

529
00:31:42,845 --> 00:31:46,045
Speaker 2: to be physical in a way that I'm not comfortable with.

530
00:31:46,525 --> 00:31:49,645
Speaker 2: You know, it takes a lot. It takes a lot.

531
00:31:49,885 --> 00:31:53,565
Speaker 2: I haven't had many lovers. I've had, you know, much

532
00:31:53,645 --> 00:31:56,685
Speaker 2: less than all of my friends. And it usually is

533
00:31:56,725 --> 00:32:01,405
Speaker 2: a very long commitment. It's not a casual thing. I've

534
00:32:01,445 --> 00:32:04,325
Speaker 2: never had a one night stand. I've never you know,

535
00:32:05,125 --> 00:32:09,325
Speaker 2: just sort of been a free person in that way.

536
00:32:09,845 --> 00:32:17,805
Speaker 2: I've always been very vulnerable and very and very tender.

537
00:32:18,245 --> 00:32:20,805
Speaker 2: You know. I need it to be nice and not

538
00:32:21,165 --> 00:32:24,405
Speaker 2: and not not scary.

539
00:32:25,325 --> 00:32:28,645
Speaker 1: And almost like you need to know a lot of

540
00:32:28,645 --> 00:32:33,925
Speaker 1: people feel very strong physical attractions to people. I personally

541
00:32:33,965 --> 00:32:36,845
Speaker 1: don't feel that. Though I can recognize that someone is

542
00:32:36,845 --> 00:32:39,805
Speaker 1: physically attractive, but I need to have some sort of

543
00:32:39,845 --> 00:32:41,405
Speaker 1: communion with them.

544
00:32:42,005 --> 00:32:46,725
Speaker 2: It's exactly yes, I can't even go there. Like people

545
00:32:46,725 --> 00:32:49,365
Speaker 2: have said, oh, so and so is so hot that

546
00:32:49,445 --> 00:32:51,565
Speaker 2: you work with, and I'm like, no, I may look

547
00:32:51,565 --> 00:32:54,565
Speaker 2: at someone and think, wow, they're physically beautiful, they're physically

548
00:32:54,605 --> 00:32:58,565
Speaker 2: handsome or pretty, but I'd never think of sexual being

549
00:32:58,605 --> 00:33:01,685
Speaker 2: with them sexually. Like I always made a joke that

550
00:33:01,885 --> 00:33:06,085
Speaker 2: if you want to have a relationship, a physical sexual

551
00:33:06,125 --> 00:33:09,485
Speaker 2: relationship with me, you need like a big sign that's

552
00:33:09,525 --> 00:33:12,365
Speaker 2: I am flirting with it because I won't get it.

553
00:33:12,885 --> 00:33:16,645
Speaker 2: You know. I think everyone's my friend, and I don't

554
00:33:16,725 --> 00:33:19,965
Speaker 2: like kind of function on that level. And I remember

555
00:33:20,005 --> 00:33:23,565
Speaker 2: going to gay bars when I was young and never

556
00:33:23,685 --> 00:33:27,205
Speaker 2: feeling that that urge of oh that person's hot. I

557
00:33:27,245 --> 00:33:30,085
Speaker 2: want to let them kiss me. I have to, And

558
00:33:30,325 --> 00:33:32,205
Speaker 2: there's a word for it. I forget what it is

559
00:33:32,245 --> 00:33:36,445
Speaker 2: now demisexual where you have to have an emotional connection

560
00:33:36,565 --> 00:33:39,685
Speaker 2: in order to be sexual, and that's sort of where

561
00:33:39,725 --> 00:33:42,165
Speaker 2: it is me my therapist told me that.

562
00:33:42,565 --> 00:33:44,965
Speaker 1: Right, They explained that concept.

563
00:33:45,845 --> 00:33:49,085
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, because we were just going over this and

564
00:33:49,165 --> 00:33:53,725
Speaker 2: trying to, you know, find my way to be more

565
00:33:53,765 --> 00:33:59,765
Speaker 2: comfortable in my own sexual truth. And they said to me,

566
00:34:00,525 --> 00:34:02,765
Speaker 2: this is what I think is happening for you, that

567
00:34:03,485 --> 00:34:07,765
Speaker 2: you need it to be emotionally there before you can

568
00:34:07,805 --> 00:34:10,165
Speaker 2: go physically there. And that's that's true for me.

569
00:34:10,765 --> 00:34:14,405
Speaker 1: And then so what does it mean so as you

570
00:34:14,565 --> 00:34:20,205
Speaker 1: recently have done so you've changed really everything about your life.

571
00:34:21,445 --> 00:34:28,365
Speaker 1: You've moved to Ireland with Clay, You're now a dog owner,

572
00:34:30,845 --> 00:34:36,005
Speaker 1: a dog lover. Yes, it seems to me that you've

573
00:34:36,365 --> 00:34:41,165
Speaker 1: really pivoted into a new expression of yourself.

574
00:34:41,805 --> 00:34:44,645
Speaker 2: You know, I think I've matured into it. And somebody

575
00:34:44,685 --> 00:34:48,365
Speaker 2: that I know, so, you know, with menopause comes tremendous wisdom,

576
00:34:48,485 --> 00:34:51,645
Speaker 2: and I think it's true. I have stopped sort of

577
00:34:51,725 --> 00:34:55,485
Speaker 2: caring about what other people think, and I've just been

578
00:34:55,525 --> 00:34:58,085
Speaker 2: able to sort of do myself in a way that

579
00:34:58,165 --> 00:35:04,125
Speaker 2: I never was before, even though my survival mechanism was

580
00:35:04,245 --> 00:35:08,605
Speaker 2: to be tough and to be you know, forward and challenging,

581
00:35:08,685 --> 00:35:10,685
Speaker 2: and you know, I would say what I thought, and

582
00:35:11,525 --> 00:35:14,525
Speaker 2: this was because I had siblings that needed to be

583
00:35:14,605 --> 00:35:18,805
Speaker 2: taken care of. And I remember when my mother died,

584
00:35:18,885 --> 00:35:20,925
Speaker 2: my little brother looked up at me and said, you

585
00:35:20,965 --> 00:35:23,605
Speaker 2: have to be the mommy now. And I took that

586
00:35:23,805 --> 00:35:27,925
Speaker 2: very seriously. He was five years old, and I thought, okay,

587
00:35:27,965 --> 00:35:32,005
Speaker 2: I do you know. So I've kind of come into

588
00:35:32,045 --> 00:35:36,445
Speaker 2: myself as I've aged in a way that is freeing,

589
00:35:37,285 --> 00:35:43,645
Speaker 2: and it's provided me with a kind of clarity and

590
00:35:43,805 --> 00:35:46,165
Speaker 2: ease that I never really had in my life.

591
00:35:47,205 --> 00:35:49,925
Speaker 1: And how will that manifest? Do you think in terms

592
00:35:49,965 --> 00:35:51,405
Speaker 1: of a romantic life?

593
00:35:51,685 --> 00:35:54,925
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I have a long term relationship that

594
00:35:55,165 --> 00:36:01,205
Speaker 2: is kind of complicated, but it provides me with tremendous

595
00:36:01,245 --> 00:36:06,885
Speaker 2: solace and stability. It's not kind of traditional, it's not

596
00:36:08,325 --> 00:36:15,285
Speaker 2: you know, the complications, you know, but I find that,

597
00:36:15,405 --> 00:36:18,645
Speaker 2: you know, every relationship I've had has been really long,

598
00:36:19,685 --> 00:36:24,845
Speaker 2: really long, and I don't do casual. I do like

599
00:36:24,885 --> 00:36:30,285
Speaker 2: an intense devotion. And so getting a divorce the first

600
00:36:30,325 --> 00:36:34,805
Speaker 2: time with Kelly, you know, was very, very painful because

601
00:36:34,845 --> 00:36:37,445
Speaker 2: I never wanted to do that to my kids. I

602
00:36:37,525 --> 00:36:41,085
Speaker 2: never wanted to do that to myself, but mostly my kids.

603
00:36:41,325 --> 00:36:44,965
Speaker 2: I think that I made the mother part of my

604
00:36:45,085 --> 00:36:49,045
Speaker 2: life the most prominent part and not the relationship and

605
00:36:49,085 --> 00:36:53,605
Speaker 2: not the wife. So correct, and that's not a healthy

606
00:36:53,605 --> 00:36:54,045
Speaker 2: way to do.

607
00:36:54,685 --> 00:36:59,085
Speaker 1: No, and that's very common in all models of relationships,

608
00:36:59,085 --> 00:37:01,125
Speaker 1: in hatro relationships as well.

609
00:37:02,125 --> 00:37:08,245
Speaker 2: Yes, and I you know, I remember like for my kids,

610
00:37:08,285 --> 00:37:12,045
Speaker 2: I would think of them first, and for my Wayfeight

611
00:37:12,125 --> 00:37:16,725
Speaker 2: did not, and it was painful for her, I believe,

612
00:37:17,285 --> 00:37:20,685
Speaker 2: And you know, I had a tendency to dissociate and

613
00:37:20,725 --> 00:37:24,405
Speaker 2: to focus all my energy on the kids and on

614
00:37:24,605 --> 00:37:29,685
Speaker 2: my role as a mother, and that was my priority,

615
00:37:30,005 --> 00:37:32,125
Speaker 2: and it was known, and that had to be very,

616
00:37:32,245 --> 00:37:33,605
Speaker 2: very painful.

617
00:37:33,845 --> 00:37:36,725
Speaker 1: You know. I was watching the crews that you did

618
00:37:36,965 --> 00:37:40,045
Speaker 1: that you organized, Yeah, the gay families and their kids

619
00:37:40,965 --> 00:37:44,285
Speaker 1: an amazing piece of activism, which at the time didn't

620
00:37:45,165 --> 00:37:48,005
Speaker 1: wasn't really presented like activism, which is why I think

621
00:37:48,005 --> 00:37:53,285
Speaker 1: it was probably so powerful. So you charted a cruise ship,

622
00:37:55,525 --> 00:38:02,885
Speaker 1: you opened it up to gay couples, their families, their kids. People,

623
00:38:03,365 --> 00:38:05,565
Speaker 1: straight people came along with their gay kids or whatever.

624
00:38:05,965 --> 00:38:11,925
Speaker 1: It was a really remarkable, uplifting docco. But in it

625
00:38:12,045 --> 00:38:14,125
Speaker 1: you are and so you're with Kelly at the time,

626
00:38:14,125 --> 00:38:17,085
Speaker 1: and you've I think you've got four kids. Then yes,

627
00:38:18,245 --> 00:38:21,925
Speaker 1: Kelly says, this amazing thing. Actually, you quote her and

628
00:38:21,965 --> 00:38:26,685
Speaker 1: you say, Kelly always sayes in a relationship, someone is

629
00:38:26,725 --> 00:38:32,725
Speaker 1: the flower and someone is the gardener. And you were like,

630
00:38:33,405 --> 00:38:36,565
Speaker 1: I'm the flower and she's the gardener.

631
00:38:37,205 --> 00:38:40,285
Speaker 2: Yes, and that becomes very tired to both people in

632
00:38:40,325 --> 00:38:46,165
Speaker 2: that role. In order to really have beautiful, nurturing, caring relationship,

633
00:38:46,485 --> 00:38:48,885
Speaker 2: you have to take turns at being the gardener and

634
00:38:49,005 --> 00:38:53,045
Speaker 2: the flower. Yes, And that's what I've learned. But I

635
00:38:53,125 --> 00:38:56,765
Speaker 2: had no ability to do that. I just thought, well,

636
00:38:57,325 --> 00:39:00,645
Speaker 2: I wasn't good at taking care of people because I

637
00:39:00,685 --> 00:39:04,005
Speaker 2: had never been taken care of. I wasn't good at

638
00:39:04,045 --> 00:39:07,085
Speaker 2: taking care of anyone except for my children, because my

639
00:39:07,205 --> 00:39:10,165
Speaker 2: desire as a child to be taken care of was

640
00:39:10,205 --> 00:39:14,365
Speaker 2: so huge and overwhelming that it dominated everything. You know,

641
00:39:15,245 --> 00:39:20,125
Speaker 2: I don't want to say that, you know, necessarily Kelly

642
00:39:20,245 --> 00:39:24,085
Speaker 2: was jealous of the relationship with my kids that I had,

643
00:39:24,485 --> 00:39:26,925
Speaker 2: but I think she wanted some of that for herself

644
00:39:26,965 --> 00:39:28,285
Speaker 2: and I was unable to do that.

645
00:39:28,965 --> 00:39:31,165
Speaker 1: And at the time, of course, you had a very

646
00:39:31,485 --> 00:39:36,245
Speaker 1: high profile, very famous, and even though you're not a

647
00:39:36,285 --> 00:39:40,405
Speaker 1: person who's led to the fame, you're led to the work.

648
00:39:41,805 --> 00:39:46,165
Speaker 1: It's impossible, I think, to not be affected by how

649
00:39:46,245 --> 00:39:49,605
Speaker 1: the outside world treats you differently when you have that

650
00:39:49,725 --> 00:39:53,445
Speaker 1: level of fame and in fact the totally yeah and

651
00:39:53,485 --> 00:39:58,085
Speaker 1: the time paucity that you have. So there's an inherent

652
00:39:58,205 --> 00:40:00,845
Speaker 1: inequality in a relationship.

653
00:40:00,725 --> 00:40:05,445
Speaker 2: Totally and financially, there was a huge inequality. And attention wise,

654
00:40:05,485 --> 00:40:08,325
Speaker 2: there's a huge inequality not just with my partner but

655
00:40:08,365 --> 00:40:11,445
Speaker 2: also with my children. Again, I talk about going to

656
00:40:11,485 --> 00:40:14,685
Speaker 2: the mall and having everyone focus on me and no

657
00:40:15,005 --> 00:40:18,605
Speaker 2: focus on the kid. You know, Kelly would everyone in

658
00:40:18,725 --> 00:40:21,445
Speaker 2: show business knew that I was gay because I always

659
00:40:21,765 --> 00:40:24,205
Speaker 2: sat next to her at the Emmy's. You know. I

660
00:40:24,285 --> 00:40:27,565
Speaker 2: never had a boy with me and was never pretending

661
00:40:28,125 --> 00:40:33,405
Speaker 2: everyone knew, but she was sort of pushed aside. You know.

662
00:40:33,605 --> 00:40:38,485
Speaker 2: My publicist was Lois Smith, legendary publicist of Marilyn Monroe,

663
00:40:38,965 --> 00:40:42,365
Speaker 2: you know, and she was an older woman and ran

664
00:40:42,685 --> 00:40:46,805
Speaker 2: and owned PMK. This very powerful. So when I started

665
00:40:46,845 --> 00:40:51,405
Speaker 2: my show, I met Kelly. I had two children. I

666
00:40:51,565 --> 00:40:56,525
Speaker 2: met Kelly, yes, my talk show and Lois, my publicist,

667
00:40:56,645 --> 00:40:59,765
Speaker 2: was like when we would go out in public, she

668
00:40:59,885 --> 00:41:05,645
Speaker 2: would get in between us. She would you know, yeah,

669
00:41:05,805 --> 00:41:08,845
Speaker 2: she would like run interfere in a way. And I

670
00:41:08,885 --> 00:41:13,285
Speaker 2: remember one time when I was doing Greece on Broadway

671
00:41:13,445 --> 00:41:18,045
Speaker 2: before I had children, This reporter asked me if I

672
00:41:18,125 --> 00:41:20,765
Speaker 2: was seeing anyone and I said no, and he said

673
00:41:21,205 --> 00:41:24,845
Speaker 2: and I wasn't And he said, well, what are the qualifications?

674
00:41:24,885 --> 00:41:30,365
Speaker 2: I said, all applicants are welcome. And he said would

675
00:41:30,405 --> 00:41:32,685
Speaker 2: that be a woman or a man? And I said, yes,

676
00:41:32,845 --> 00:41:37,965
Speaker 2: could be either one. Well, Lois called Helen Gurley Brown.

677
00:41:38,085 --> 00:41:42,325
Speaker 2: It was in Cosmo magazine. The writer was Patrick Pachenko.

678
00:41:42,445 --> 00:41:46,245
Speaker 2: I remember it vividly a gay man, and she had

679
00:41:46,245 --> 00:41:50,805
Speaker 2: it taken out, not at my request, at her own request,

680
00:41:51,365 --> 00:41:54,765
Speaker 2: had it taken out of the interview. And I remember

681
00:41:54,845 --> 00:41:57,845
Speaker 2: Patrick being sort of offended and felt like that I

682
00:41:57,925 --> 00:42:00,245
Speaker 2: had done it, but I had not done it, like

683
00:42:00,325 --> 00:42:04,085
Speaker 2: there were forces that be at that time that just

684
00:42:04,445 --> 00:42:07,685
Speaker 2: didn't want it known. It was before Ellen was out.

685
00:42:07,725 --> 00:42:12,405
Speaker 2: It was before everybody was closeted except Katie Lang and

686
00:42:12,445 --> 00:42:17,205
Speaker 2: Elton John that was it. Everyone else was not out,

687
00:42:17,365 --> 00:42:22,365
Speaker 2: and so the concept of being an entertainer who was

688
00:42:22,445 --> 00:42:28,725
Speaker 2: gay and still working was foreign to me. When Will

689
00:42:28,765 --> 00:42:32,005
Speaker 2: and Grace came out, they told me, oh, there's a

690
00:42:32,005 --> 00:42:35,645
Speaker 2: new show coming. It's a gay man living with Lucille

691
00:42:35,725 --> 00:42:39,765
Speaker 2: Ball like woman friend and I thought, well, that'll last

692
00:42:39,805 --> 00:42:43,045
Speaker 2: a week. Like you know, I remembered Love Sydney. Do

693
00:42:43,085 --> 00:42:46,565
Speaker 2: you remember that show with Tommy Randall. No, this was

694
00:42:46,605 --> 00:42:49,565
Speaker 2: like in the early seventies. It was a show where

695
00:42:49,565 --> 00:42:51,805
Speaker 2: he was playing a gay man, although they never said

696
00:42:51,805 --> 00:42:54,485
Speaker 2: he was a gay man. He had a big photo

697
00:42:54,765 --> 00:42:59,685
Speaker 2: of his dead partner over the fireplace. At the end

698
00:42:59,765 --> 00:43:02,485
Speaker 2: he would go over and look at it. Now, nothing

699
00:43:02,565 --> 00:43:05,525
Speaker 2: was said, but it was definitely implied, and the Catholic

700
00:43:05,645 --> 00:43:09,565
Speaker 2: Church went crazy and everybody was protesting it, and it

701
00:43:09,605 --> 00:43:13,165
Speaker 2: got pulled off the air. So I never thought it

702
00:43:13,205 --> 00:43:16,125
Speaker 2: would be possible in my lifetime to be an out

703
00:43:16,205 --> 00:43:19,085
Speaker 2: gay person and have a career in show business.

704
00:43:22,285 --> 00:43:26,325
Speaker 1: After the break, Rosie shares the story behind one of

705
00:43:26,405 --> 00:43:30,925
Speaker 1: the most painful public moments of her career when Ellen

706
00:43:30,965 --> 00:43:39,565
Speaker 1: DeGeneres told everyone that they weren't friends. You mentioned Ellen

707
00:43:39,645 --> 00:43:42,845
Speaker 1: before when she came out in her sitcom.

708
00:43:44,365 --> 00:43:45,125
Speaker 2: How was that?

709
00:43:45,565 --> 00:43:48,925
Speaker 1: I mean, that was a sensation for viewers around the world.

710
00:43:49,605 --> 00:43:51,045
Speaker 1: How did that feel for you?

711
00:43:52,125 --> 00:43:57,245
Speaker 2: Very threatening? Very threatening because you know everyone then wanted

712
00:43:57,245 --> 00:44:00,165
Speaker 2: to know, well, what are you gay now? She came

713
00:44:00,245 --> 00:44:03,765
Speaker 2: on my show and I felt strongly that I didn't

714
00:44:03,845 --> 00:44:07,005
Speaker 2: want to leave her out there alone, that I could

715
00:44:07,045 --> 00:44:11,245
Speaker 2: not act as though I was not the same as her.

716
00:44:11,965 --> 00:44:15,725
Speaker 2: So we talked before in the dressing room and she

717
00:44:15,885 --> 00:44:18,125
Speaker 2: said she was going to say that her character was

718
00:44:18,165 --> 00:44:22,605
Speaker 2: going to become Lebanese. And then I said, okay, well

719
00:44:22,885 --> 00:44:26,205
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about that with you. Let me

720
00:44:26,325 --> 00:44:28,925
Speaker 2: in and she said okay. So I said, oh my god,

721
00:44:28,965 --> 00:44:32,925
Speaker 2: I like Casey Caseum, maybe I'm Lebanese, right. And everyone

722
00:44:32,925 --> 00:44:36,125
Speaker 2: who was gay at home got it, everybody, you know,

723
00:44:36,245 --> 00:44:39,045
Speaker 2: because I wouldn't leave her out there alone. I couldn't

724
00:44:39,085 --> 00:44:44,205
Speaker 2: do it. And so we had this you know, really

725
00:44:45,245 --> 00:44:52,685
Speaker 2: sort of decoded, coded interaction that anyone who was gay new.

726
00:44:53,525 --> 00:44:57,525
Speaker 2: But you know, the public didn't really pick up on it.

727
00:44:57,565 --> 00:45:01,605
Speaker 2: The news media didn't really, you know, and and nobody

728
00:45:01,685 --> 00:45:05,405
Speaker 2: would ask back then. But I remember it felt very threatening.

729
00:45:05,485 --> 00:45:09,325
Speaker 2: I was in on this very famous, this very success

730
00:45:09,445 --> 00:45:12,805
Speaker 2: esful show. I was winning all the Emmy Awards, and

731
00:45:12,845 --> 00:45:15,445
Speaker 2: it just felt like, oh, this could really threaten me.

732
00:45:15,565 --> 00:45:23,125
Speaker 2: But still my internal clock wouldn't allow me to distance

733
00:45:23,205 --> 00:45:25,885
Speaker 2: myself from her. I had to stand by her and

734
00:45:25,925 --> 00:45:28,645
Speaker 2: hold her hand, and that's what I chose to do.

735
00:45:29,365 --> 00:45:32,085
Speaker 2: And then, you know, it was funny because she never really,

736
00:45:33,965 --> 00:45:39,485
Speaker 2: I didn't think appreciated that moment. And she was on

737
00:45:39,645 --> 00:45:42,725
Speaker 2: Larry King and he asked her, when I left my

738
00:45:42,845 --> 00:45:45,845
Speaker 2: show on my own volition after being offered a lot

739
00:45:45,845 --> 00:45:48,805
Speaker 2: of money to stay because my mother died at forty

740
00:45:48,845 --> 00:45:50,805
Speaker 2: and I was turning forty, and I had all these

741
00:45:50,885 --> 00:45:53,445
Speaker 2: children and I wanted to be around for them and

742
00:45:53,525 --> 00:45:57,805
Speaker 2: go to their softball games and their school plays. Larry

743
00:45:57,885 --> 00:46:00,365
Speaker 2: King asked her, and Kelly and I were in bed

744
00:46:00,405 --> 00:46:03,165
Speaker 2: watching it, and he asked her, whatever happened to Rosio

745
00:46:03,165 --> 00:46:06,645
Speaker 2: o'donald her show went down the tubes, and Ellen said,

746
00:46:06,885 --> 00:46:10,805
Speaker 2: I don't know Rosie. We're not friends. And that was

747
00:46:10,925 --> 00:46:13,405
Speaker 2: like one of the most painful things that ever happened

748
00:46:13,405 --> 00:46:17,245
Speaker 2: to me in show business in my life. I couldn't

749
00:46:17,245 --> 00:46:17,725
Speaker 2: believe it.

750
00:46:17,925 --> 00:46:20,245
Speaker 1: Why did she say that I don't.

751
00:46:20,045 --> 00:46:23,165
Speaker 2: Know because I have photos of her holding my newborn babies.

752
00:46:23,685 --> 00:46:27,205
Speaker 2: I knew her for thirty years, Like, I don't know Rosie,

753
00:46:27,205 --> 00:46:29,365
Speaker 2: we're not friends. It was so upsetting to me that

754
00:46:29,445 --> 00:46:32,405
Speaker 2: I had t shirts made I don't know Rosie, We're

755
00:46:32,405 --> 00:46:34,365
Speaker 2: not friends, and I gave them out to my staff

756
00:46:35,165 --> 00:46:38,685
Speaker 2: because it was painful, and you know, we've never sort

757
00:46:38,685 --> 00:46:39,525
Speaker 2: of gotten over it.

758
00:46:39,965 --> 00:46:43,445
Speaker 1: Did she ever reach out to you to explain it

759
00:46:43,605 --> 00:46:46,805
Speaker 1: or what her thinking was or no? I mean I'm

760
00:46:46,845 --> 00:46:49,005
Speaker 1: not the first person to say this, but she's a

761
00:46:49,045 --> 00:46:49,965
Speaker 1: strange creature.

762
00:46:50,485 --> 00:46:54,005
Speaker 2: Well, you know, she's We're not similar. I can say

763
00:46:54,045 --> 00:46:59,085
Speaker 2: that for sure. We're not emotionally. No, And I was

764
00:46:59,165 --> 00:47:03,125
Speaker 2: never asked to go on her show. When I was,

765
00:47:03,205 --> 00:47:06,765
Speaker 2: it was long after they had been on for many years.

766
00:47:06,845 --> 00:47:09,445
Speaker 2: And she had the same staff as my show, the

767
00:47:09,485 --> 00:47:13,605
Speaker 2: same producers, the same everything. And now I don't blame

768
00:47:13,645 --> 00:47:17,085
Speaker 2: her for doing that. I didn't create the genre of

769
00:47:17,125 --> 00:47:20,405
Speaker 2: a MERV Griffin Mike Douglas book show. You know, this

770
00:47:20,645 --> 00:47:24,605
Speaker 2: was what I grew up watching. But I did think

771
00:47:24,645 --> 00:47:26,525
Speaker 2: that she was all of a sudden in the position

772
00:47:26,605 --> 00:47:29,485
Speaker 2: I was in, where she was starting a show and

773
00:47:29,565 --> 00:47:32,885
Speaker 2: wanted it to be successful and get the money and

774
00:47:32,925 --> 00:47:36,285
Speaker 2: the accolades that came with it. And instead of deciding

775
00:47:36,325 --> 00:47:38,245
Speaker 2: to stand next to me and hold my hand, which

776
00:47:38,245 --> 00:47:40,965
Speaker 2: is what I did to her, she did the opposite.

777
00:47:41,285 --> 00:47:46,005
Speaker 2: And I couldn't believe it. You know, I couldn't believe it.

778
00:47:46,005 --> 00:47:48,205
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say she had the same producers and

779
00:47:48,245 --> 00:47:52,765
Speaker 1: the same staff, because your relationship with those producers and

780
00:47:52,965 --> 00:47:58,725
Speaker 1: that staff was very different than what led to the

781
00:47:58,765 --> 00:48:02,845
Speaker 1: demise of her own show, which was that the relationship

782
00:48:02,885 --> 00:48:05,645
Speaker 1: with those the workers, that people that made the show

783
00:48:06,685 --> 00:48:11,725
Speaker 1: was deeply unsatisfying to that they felt excluded and they

784
00:48:11,765 --> 00:48:12,805
Speaker 1: felt diminished.

785
00:48:13,285 --> 00:48:16,565
Speaker 2: Yes, we had a family, for sure. I'm still friends

786
00:48:16,605 --> 00:48:18,885
Speaker 2: with many of the people who were on my staff

787
00:48:18,965 --> 00:48:23,885
Speaker 2: thirty years ago. I you know, I'm very proud of

788
00:48:23,925 --> 00:48:26,485
Speaker 2: them who all went on and did daytime TV for

789
00:48:26,525 --> 00:48:30,925
Speaker 2: the next twenty years. And we're still close. You know,

790
00:48:31,045 --> 00:48:35,925
Speaker 2: every anniversary we all get together and have a party.

791
00:48:36,005 --> 00:48:39,445
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't know it. My desire to

792
00:48:39,525 --> 00:48:43,805
Speaker 2: create family is the biggest force in my life and

793
00:48:43,845 --> 00:48:46,365
Speaker 2: I do it everywhere I go, and you know, I

794
00:48:46,445 --> 00:48:49,445
Speaker 2: do it with my staff here in my life and

795
00:48:49,485 --> 00:48:55,205
Speaker 2: in my house. You know, I create a family. And

796
00:48:55,765 --> 00:48:58,605
Speaker 2: I don't think that she's similar to me in that way.

797
00:48:58,965 --> 00:49:04,325
Speaker 1: Did you know when they were having troubles, the people

798
00:49:04,365 --> 00:49:05,485
Speaker 1: that you were still in contact with.

799
00:49:05,525 --> 00:49:08,165
Speaker 2: Well, I knew the way she treated me must be

800
00:49:08,285 --> 00:49:11,805
Speaker 2: the way she treats others. And I felt, you know,

801
00:49:12,085 --> 00:49:17,925
Speaker 2: very betrayed, and so I didn't imagine that they had

802
00:49:17,965 --> 00:49:21,485
Speaker 2: a similar kind of relationship that I had with that

803
00:49:21,605 --> 00:49:24,285
Speaker 2: she had that with her staff, and you hear things,

804
00:49:24,405 --> 00:49:27,565
Speaker 2: you know, you hear things from from different people. But

805
00:49:28,245 --> 00:49:31,765
Speaker 2: you know, I'm now sixty three and she's you know,

806
00:49:32,045 --> 00:49:34,405
Speaker 2: a few years older than me. I don't wish her

807
00:49:34,445 --> 00:49:39,885
Speaker 2: any ill will, but you know, I never could kind

808
00:49:39,925 --> 00:49:42,805
Speaker 2: of get past it. And a lot of times, you know,

809
00:49:43,325 --> 00:49:46,285
Speaker 2: she has said or written me and said, why are

810
00:49:46,365 --> 00:49:50,045
Speaker 2: you still talking about this, you know, all these years? Ah,

811
00:49:50,645 --> 00:49:54,445
Speaker 2: And I didn't quite know how to answer that. I said, well,

812
00:49:55,805 --> 00:49:59,965
Speaker 2: it was profound for me. It was a profound moment,

813
00:50:00,565 --> 00:50:01,685
Speaker 2: and so she'll.

814
00:50:01,445 --> 00:50:03,645
Speaker 1: Address it to that point, but not to the point

815
00:50:03,725 --> 00:50:10,365
Speaker 1: of resolution or explanation or assuming more psychology right now,

816
00:50:10,485 --> 00:50:11,525
Speaker 1: that's interesting.

817
00:50:12,005 --> 00:50:15,205
Speaker 2: I would have apologized. I would have said, I'm really

818
00:50:15,325 --> 00:50:18,165
Speaker 2: sorry I heard you that much, and I don't know

819
00:50:18,245 --> 00:50:21,125
Speaker 2: why I did that, and it was a mistake, and

820
00:50:22,325 --> 00:50:24,525
Speaker 2: I hope you can forgive me. That's what I would

821
00:50:24,565 --> 00:50:27,445
Speaker 2: have done. But I think in her mind she thinks

822
00:50:27,485 --> 00:50:31,525
Speaker 2: I keep rehashing it for pleasure. I don't rehash it

823
00:50:31,605 --> 00:50:36,165
Speaker 2: for pleasure, you know, I rehash it because our careers

824
00:50:36,205 --> 00:50:40,445
Speaker 2: have taken sort of parallel, interwoven paths. Yes, and I'm

825
00:50:40,565 --> 00:50:45,565
Speaker 2: often you know where gay talk show hosts and we're

826
00:50:45,605 --> 00:50:48,365
Speaker 2: around the same age. So people would always ask me

827
00:50:48,445 --> 00:50:51,005
Speaker 2: about it, and I have a hard time not telling

828
00:50:51,085 --> 00:50:51,485
Speaker 2: the truth.

829
00:50:52,485 --> 00:50:56,205
Speaker 1: There's one exception. She was never in Sleepless in Seattle.

830
00:50:57,245 --> 00:51:03,325
Speaker 2: That's true, such or the league thereof Yeah, yeah, yeah,

831
00:51:03,965 --> 00:51:07,685
Speaker 2: I'm very lucky. I had amazing movie roles. And you know,

832
00:51:07,925 --> 00:51:12,445
Speaker 2: again it's because of, you know, my need to emotionally connect.

833
00:51:12,565 --> 00:51:17,205
Speaker 2: Like Penny Marshall and Nora Efron, they became family in

834
00:51:17,365 --> 00:51:20,125
Speaker 2: my life and they're both gone. But you know, Nora

835
00:51:20,325 --> 00:51:23,245
Speaker 2: got me a department in her building, the Apthorpe, and

836
00:51:23,325 --> 00:51:26,405
Speaker 2: I lived there and her husband, Nick's office was on

837
00:51:26,565 --> 00:51:29,125
Speaker 2: my floor, and I would go to the Hamptons with them,

838
00:51:29,245 --> 00:51:32,165
Speaker 2: and Penny and I stayed close her whole life, and

839
00:51:32,845 --> 00:51:35,645
Speaker 2: you know, even though she struggled in a lot of ways,

840
00:51:35,965 --> 00:51:40,045
Speaker 2: we maintained our friendship. I'm still close to Madonna thirty

841
00:51:40,125 --> 00:51:44,165
Speaker 2: years later. You know, I don't let people go, you know.

842
00:51:44,525 --> 00:51:49,005
Speaker 2: And and so I think that a lot of my

843
00:51:49,205 --> 00:51:52,245
Speaker 2: success is the way that I love And on my

844
00:51:52,405 --> 00:51:55,685
Speaker 2: TV show, you could see that I loved Barbara streisand

845
00:51:55,765 --> 00:51:58,485
Speaker 2: that I loved the guests that I had on whether

846
00:51:58,565 --> 00:52:02,205
Speaker 2: it was Florence Henderson, from the Brady Bunch or somebody

847
00:52:02,365 --> 00:52:05,605
Speaker 2: like Tom Cruise. I loved them equally because they mattered

848
00:52:05,685 --> 00:52:08,525
Speaker 2: to me in my life and world. And I think

849
00:52:08,685 --> 00:52:12,605
Speaker 2: my success is largely based on my capacity to love.

850
00:52:12,725 --> 00:52:16,765
Speaker 2: And it made people feel warm and feel connected.

851
00:52:17,405 --> 00:52:20,365
Speaker 1: What does it mean mean for those relationships? You're very

852
00:52:20,405 --> 00:52:25,645
Speaker 1: good at relationships and they're very alive, and so many

853
00:52:25,845 --> 00:52:30,965
Speaker 1: people speak with such love and fondness in regard for you.

854
00:52:31,925 --> 00:52:35,605
Speaker 1: But what does it mean for those relationships now that

855
00:52:35,725 --> 00:52:38,725
Speaker 1: you have moved to the other side of the world.

856
00:52:39,725 --> 00:52:43,525
Speaker 2: Very hard, yeah, very hard. But I knew, you know

857
00:52:44,045 --> 00:52:46,885
Speaker 2: why I did. It was not a political statement as

858
00:52:47,005 --> 00:52:50,765
Speaker 2: much as it was self preservation. I knew that the

859
00:52:50,885 --> 00:52:53,685
Speaker 2: last time he was in office was very difficult for me.

860
00:52:53,965 --> 00:52:56,805
Speaker 2: Trump I was eating too much, I was drinking. Trump

861
00:52:56,965 --> 00:53:00,085
Speaker 2: I was drinking too much. You know. I talked about

862
00:53:00,165 --> 00:53:03,405
Speaker 2: him in two thousand and seven and he hasn't stopped

863
00:53:03,525 --> 00:53:07,885
Speaker 2: using me as a punchline ever since. And many, many,

864
00:53:08,085 --> 00:53:11,805
Speaker 2: many male comedians did what I did and worse, but

865
00:53:11,965 --> 00:53:14,045
Speaker 2: he didn't go after them in the way that he

866
00:53:14,125 --> 00:53:18,645
Speaker 2: went after me, because he's misogynistic and sexist and cruel.

867
00:53:18,805 --> 00:53:21,965
Speaker 2: He's innately a cruel human being, and I think that

868
00:53:22,765 --> 00:53:30,645
Speaker 2: our tumult caused a tremendous amount of seris in my life.

869
00:53:31,085 --> 00:53:34,525
Speaker 2: You know, it created a lot of problems. I would

870
00:53:34,565 --> 00:53:37,405
Speaker 2: be with my little child who has autism and CVS,

871
00:53:37,525 --> 00:53:40,365
Speaker 2: which is like a drugstore in America, and guy with

872
00:53:40,485 --> 00:53:42,765
Speaker 2: a MAGA hat would come over and go, hey, screw

873
00:53:42,845 --> 00:53:45,965
Speaker 2: you Trump one, And I have a five year old

874
00:53:46,005 --> 00:53:48,445
Speaker 2: with auto going why is that man cursing at us?

875
00:53:48,645 --> 00:53:53,525
Speaker 2: You know, his ability to denigrate people and dismiss them

876
00:53:53,645 --> 00:53:57,885
Speaker 2: and humiliate them encouraged other people to do the same,

877
00:53:58,805 --> 00:54:01,485
Speaker 2: and it was difficult when he was in office the

878
00:54:01,565 --> 00:54:05,245
Speaker 2: first time, even though there were guardrails up. So I

879
00:54:05,405 --> 00:54:08,045
Speaker 2: read Project twenty twenty five and knew that I had

880
00:54:08,125 --> 00:54:11,725
Speaker 2: to go to save myself and to be a fully aware,

881
00:54:12,045 --> 00:54:16,165
Speaker 2: alive and healthy parent for this child who was special needs.

882
00:54:16,405 --> 00:54:19,005
Speaker 2: You know, it's I never had a child who was

883
00:54:19,045 --> 00:54:24,805
Speaker 2: special needs before Clay, and that's where my focus is

884
00:54:24,925 --> 00:54:27,805
Speaker 2: and my commitment. So I wanted to take her to

885
00:54:27,925 --> 00:54:31,965
Speaker 2: a place where decency still lived and where I wouldn't

886
00:54:32,045 --> 00:54:34,525
Speaker 2: have to witness what he was going to do to

887
00:54:34,645 --> 00:54:39,645
Speaker 2: the country, which he outlined in The Heritage Foundation's Project

888
00:54:39,685 --> 00:54:42,965
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five and I read and was shocked to

889
00:54:43,045 --> 00:54:46,365
Speaker 2: find out most Americans did not read it. So some

890
00:54:46,565 --> 00:54:52,045
Speaker 2: Americans thought I was overreacting, And now they're liking saying,

891
00:54:52,125 --> 00:54:55,045
Speaker 2: you know, you were very prescient. I'm like, I wasn't

892
00:54:55,085 --> 00:54:58,045
Speaker 2: so prescient. I just did my reading and research and

893
00:54:58,165 --> 00:54:59,525
Speaker 2: I knew what he was capable of.

894
00:55:00,005 --> 00:55:02,965
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you were not one of those people

895
00:55:03,605 --> 00:55:06,965
Speaker 1: who said if Trump gets elected, I'm leaving the country.

896
00:55:07,445 --> 00:55:09,965
Speaker 1: And they have been quite a few of those, but

897
00:55:10,165 --> 00:55:11,165
Speaker 1: you did leave the games.

898
00:55:11,325 --> 00:55:12,405
Speaker 2: Most of them didn't do it.

899
00:55:12,685 --> 00:55:14,885
Speaker 1: No, most of them didn't do it. You didn't say

900
00:55:15,045 --> 00:55:16,685
Speaker 1: you were going to do it, but you did it.

901
00:55:17,885 --> 00:55:18,725
Speaker 2: And how is that?

902
00:55:19,005 --> 00:55:20,725
Speaker 1: How long have you been in Ireland now?

903
00:55:21,285 --> 00:55:25,485
Speaker 2: Since January fifteenth. I wanted to leave before the inauguration,

904
00:55:26,605 --> 00:55:29,725
Speaker 2: and I didn't tell anyone because I didn't want it

905
00:55:29,805 --> 00:55:31,925
Speaker 2: to be a big public thing. I wanted to go

906
00:55:32,125 --> 00:55:36,805
Speaker 2: quietly and keep my child's life calm. And also I

907
00:55:36,885 --> 00:55:40,165
Speaker 2: thought many people wouldn't believe it because I'm not a traveler,

908
00:55:40,885 --> 00:55:43,725
Speaker 2: like going to Australia has been a dream of mine always,

909
00:55:43,805 --> 00:55:46,405
Speaker 2: but I think I would have the guts to do it,

910
00:55:47,325 --> 00:55:49,845
Speaker 2: so I didn't tell anyone. I mean, I told my

911
00:55:49,925 --> 00:55:52,925
Speaker 2: older brother and my sisters. You know, I told my

912
00:55:53,045 --> 00:55:56,685
Speaker 2: immediate family, but even them they were saying, I don't

913
00:55:56,725 --> 00:55:58,325
Speaker 2: think you're going to do it. Ro I think you'll

914
00:55:58,365 --> 00:56:00,525
Speaker 2: go and then you'll come right back. But I knew

915
00:56:00,565 --> 00:56:03,045
Speaker 2: I had to do it. I was sure that I

916
00:56:03,165 --> 00:56:06,205
Speaker 2: had to do it, and so I came to Ireland,

917
00:56:06,565 --> 00:56:09,925
Speaker 2: where I had had two cousins who I knew from

918
00:56:10,005 --> 00:56:12,805
Speaker 2: when I was a child, who are here or won

919
00:56:12,925 --> 00:56:15,725
Speaker 2: my age, and one about twelve years older than me.

920
00:56:16,525 --> 00:56:22,565
Speaker 2: And I came knowing two people and surprised myself truthfully

921
00:56:22,965 --> 00:56:26,805
Speaker 2: that I did it and that it's been quite a success.

922
00:56:26,885 --> 00:56:29,965
Speaker 2: And then, you know, people say to me, why do

923
00:56:30,085 --> 00:56:35,005
Speaker 2: you still talk about him and the country if you left. Well,

924
00:56:35,685 --> 00:56:39,005
Speaker 2: I never gave up my citizenship, nor would I although

925
00:56:39,045 --> 00:56:42,925
Speaker 2: I'm getting my dual citizenship to become an Irish citizens. Well,

926
00:56:43,205 --> 00:56:48,605
Speaker 2: because my grandparents are from Ireland, and I care about

927
00:56:49,005 --> 00:56:53,885
Speaker 2: my country. I love my country. I am very patriotic,

928
00:56:54,445 --> 00:56:57,285
Speaker 2: and I knew that I would not be able to

929
00:56:57,565 --> 00:57:02,245
Speaker 2: deal with what was about to happen, and it certainly has.

930
00:57:02,845 --> 00:57:05,565
Speaker 2: And I think the United States is in serious trouble

931
00:57:06,125 --> 00:57:09,485
Speaker 2: at this point with him arming the national gaul Guard

932
00:57:09,685 --> 00:57:14,005
Speaker 2: and calling the National Guard, not on January sixth, but

933
00:57:14,205 --> 00:57:18,365
Speaker 2: now to cities where there are no unrest, there are

934
00:57:18,445 --> 00:57:21,165
Speaker 2: no insurrections, where there is not mass violence.

935
00:57:21,605 --> 00:57:24,125
Speaker 1: Do you think if you because that has been a

936
00:57:25,685 --> 00:57:31,965
Speaker 1: huge price to pay for you having been outspoken, do

937
00:57:32,165 --> 00:57:35,245
Speaker 1: you think and not that I'm you know, you don't

938
00:57:35,245 --> 00:57:37,205
Speaker 1: strike me as someone who lives with your great but

939
00:57:37,285 --> 00:57:40,725
Speaker 1: you do live with reflection. Do you wish that you

940
00:57:41,005 --> 00:57:45,125
Speaker 1: had spoken differently in two thousand and seven or not spoken?

941
00:57:45,845 --> 00:57:49,565
Speaker 2: No, because what I spoke about was not just making

942
00:57:49,645 --> 00:57:52,805
Speaker 2: fun of him. There were he owned beauty pageants, And

943
00:57:52,925 --> 00:57:55,365
Speaker 2: if you grew up in New York like I, you

944
00:57:55,525 --> 00:57:59,005
Speaker 2: knew who he was from the get go. In New York,

945
00:57:59,085 --> 00:58:02,045
Speaker 2: he's not respected and he never was. And I grew

946
00:58:02,165 --> 00:58:06,045
Speaker 2: up watching his planes be repossessed off the runways at LaGuardia,

947
00:58:06,565 --> 00:58:09,605
Speaker 2: watching him try to sell steaks and vodka. He's a

948
00:58:09,685 --> 00:58:13,085
Speaker 2: con man and he's a grifter, and he's a logo slapper.

949
00:58:13,165 --> 00:58:16,605
Speaker 2: He's not a builder, and he's all illusion. And if

950
00:58:16,645 --> 00:58:19,565
Speaker 2: you are a New Yorker you knew this. So he

951
00:58:19,685 --> 00:58:23,965
Speaker 2: had a woman, Tara O'Connor, who was I believe eighteen

952
00:58:24,085 --> 00:58:28,005
Speaker 2: or nineteen Miss teen USA or whatever his title was.

953
00:58:28,645 --> 00:58:31,325
Speaker 2: And she kissed a girl in the village, and he

954
00:58:31,485 --> 00:58:35,125
Speaker 2: made her have a press conference and apologized to the country,

955
00:58:35,965 --> 00:58:38,085
Speaker 2: and it was on right before the view came on

956
00:58:38,685 --> 00:58:41,645
Speaker 2: the live press conference, and she was crying and thanking

957
00:58:41,765 --> 00:58:44,605
Speaker 2: him for a second chance. And all it looked to

958
00:58:44,685 --> 00:58:49,285
Speaker 2: me was like a prostitute and a pimp controlling the prostitute, saying,

959
00:58:49,485 --> 00:58:53,925
Speaker 2: you're gonna say this to save face for me, And

960
00:58:54,085 --> 00:58:57,205
Speaker 2: I said that, and then I said some facts about him,

961
00:58:57,285 --> 00:59:00,325
Speaker 2: that he never paid his vendors, that he was charged

962
00:59:00,405 --> 00:59:04,165
Speaker 2: with sexual abuse by twenty six women. I said all

963
00:59:04,205 --> 00:59:06,965
Speaker 2: the facts about him that were very easy to find.

964
00:59:07,485 --> 00:59:09,565
Speaker 2: It was not like I had to do and this

965
00:59:09,605 --> 00:59:11,805
Speaker 2: amount of research. All you had to do was have

966
00:59:11,885 --> 00:59:16,125
Speaker 2: an Internet connection. And the American media, the Fourth Estate,

967
00:59:16,245 --> 00:59:19,965
Speaker 2: has really left the public down by not telling the

968
00:59:20,045 --> 00:59:22,125
Speaker 2: truth about him. They were complicit.

969
00:59:22,765 --> 00:59:25,365
Speaker 1: I have never thought of it in the context of

970
00:59:25,565 --> 00:59:29,525
Speaker 1: that before. And I know there are people who say, Rosie, well,

971
00:59:29,565 --> 00:59:31,805
Speaker 1: you started it when you had a crack at Trump

972
00:59:31,925 --> 00:59:36,645
Speaker 1: and you poked the bear. But when you say male comedians,

973
00:59:36,685 --> 00:59:42,005
Speaker 1: you're right have been doing that for decades with no blowback,

974
00:59:42,925 --> 00:59:47,045
Speaker 1: and also other women he has picked off.

975
00:59:47,525 --> 00:59:52,965
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that he is afraid of smart, informed,

976
00:59:53,285 --> 00:59:57,165
Speaker 2: strong women. And you know, he thinks women are to

977
00:59:57,205 --> 01:00:00,885
Speaker 2: be abused, to be grabbed by the pussy, as he said.

978
01:00:01,125 --> 01:00:03,205
Speaker 2: I thought when that happened that that would be it

979
01:00:03,365 --> 01:00:06,685
Speaker 2: for him. You know. I remember when Gary Hart had

980
01:00:06,725 --> 01:00:08,925
Speaker 2: a girl sit on his lap, a grown woman, not

981
01:00:09,005 --> 01:00:13,845
Speaker 2: a and that was the end of his candidacy. And

982
01:00:14,005 --> 01:00:16,525
Speaker 2: here he is saying what he says and being who

983
01:00:16,605 --> 01:00:19,965
Speaker 2: he is. And I think that strong women scare him

984
01:00:20,005 --> 01:00:22,845
Speaker 2: and infuriate him. And I'm one of them.

985
01:00:23,125 --> 01:00:27,325
Speaker 1: And yes, yes, he was married to two strong women.

986
01:00:27,765 --> 01:00:30,205
Speaker 2: I don't know how strong they were. I was at

987
01:00:30,245 --> 01:00:30,725
Speaker 2: his wedding.

988
01:00:31,165 --> 01:00:34,285
Speaker 1: I had heard that you were someone's plus one. Yes,

989
01:00:34,445 --> 01:00:36,045
Speaker 1: And I went to Donald Trump's wedding.

990
01:00:36,885 --> 01:00:39,925
Speaker 2: I was friendly with Marlon Maples because her leading man

991
01:00:40,125 --> 01:00:43,085
Speaker 2: in will Rogers Folly's was my leading man in Greece,

992
01:00:43,685 --> 01:00:45,885
Speaker 2: and so he was invited to the wedding. And we

993
01:00:46,005 --> 01:00:49,965
Speaker 2: were doing Greece on Broadway and he invited me, and

994
01:00:50,165 --> 01:00:52,485
Speaker 2: so we didn't stay very long, and we went into

995
01:00:52,645 --> 01:00:55,925
Speaker 2: the plaza or wherever it was that I don't even remember.

996
01:00:55,965 --> 01:00:58,645
Speaker 2: And as he walked down the aisle. He shook people's

997
01:00:58,685 --> 01:01:01,485
Speaker 2: hands who were famous in the audience, but he had

998
01:01:01,525 --> 01:01:05,685
Speaker 2: stood her up a few times, so people weren't necessarily

999
01:01:05,845 --> 01:01:08,085
Speaker 2: sure that he was going to marry her, you know.

1000
01:01:08,325 --> 01:01:12,125
Speaker 2: So I was there and when he started going at

1001
01:01:12,205 --> 01:01:14,765
Speaker 2: me like that was a very big moment where I said, well,

1002
01:01:15,285 --> 01:01:17,565
Speaker 2: tell him, I have some photos of me at his wedding.

1003
01:01:17,925 --> 01:01:21,805
Speaker 2: You know, I've never had a conversation with him in

1004
01:01:21,885 --> 01:01:25,205
Speaker 2: my life. No, he wanted to be on my show.

1005
01:01:25,285 --> 01:01:27,565
Speaker 2: I would never have him on my show. And then

1006
01:01:27,605 --> 01:01:31,485
Speaker 2: we did a fundraiser for money where during sweeps, if

1007
01:01:31,525 --> 01:01:35,285
Speaker 2: you would come out and sweep the floor, Swift would

1008
01:01:35,285 --> 01:01:37,165
Speaker 2: give us your writings.

1009
01:01:37,285 --> 01:01:40,045
Speaker 1: Isn't it sets Yeah.

1010
01:01:40,245 --> 01:01:43,205
Speaker 2: Yeah, So once he came out and swept the floor

1011
01:01:43,365 --> 01:01:45,645
Speaker 2: and I didn't talk to him. I just went like

1012
01:01:45,725 --> 01:01:49,365
Speaker 2: that and that was that. But you know, I knew

1013
01:01:49,525 --> 01:01:51,445
Speaker 2: that he and I were oil and water from the

1014
01:01:51,485 --> 01:01:55,725
Speaker 2: get go. And any woman that he is threatened by

1015
01:01:55,925 --> 01:02:00,165
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift, he attacks Taylor Swift. Meryl Street, he said

1016
01:02:00,245 --> 01:02:06,005
Speaker 2: was an overrated actress, AOC, you know, AOC. He thinks

1017
01:02:06,005 --> 01:02:09,085
Speaker 2: he's a low IQ person. You know, I think that

1018
01:02:09,525 --> 01:02:15,845
Speaker 2: everything he says indicts him and strong women are his kryptonite.

1019
01:02:16,045 --> 01:02:17,125
Speaker 2: He falls apart.

1020
01:02:17,685 --> 01:02:21,685
Speaker 1: Do you think that the rest of your life is

1021
01:02:22,125 --> 01:02:26,765
Speaker 1: in Ireland or do you not think that? Futuristically and

1022
01:02:26,885 --> 01:02:29,405
Speaker 1: the country's been very beautiful and reason to meet you.

1023
01:02:30,245 --> 01:02:34,965
Speaker 2: Oh, unbelievably. I'm much more at peace here. I don't

1024
01:02:35,045 --> 01:02:39,725
Speaker 2: worry about violence, I don't worry about confrontation. I don't

1025
01:02:39,765 --> 01:02:43,285
Speaker 2: worry about my child walking to get an ice cream

1026
01:02:43,325 --> 01:02:48,205
Speaker 2: with her friends. You know. I met the Lollipop Lady,

1027
01:02:48,245 --> 01:02:51,165
Speaker 2: which is the crossing guard here at school, and she

1028
01:02:51,325 --> 01:02:53,845
Speaker 2: said to me, what's your name, And I said Rosie,

1029
01:02:53,845 --> 01:02:55,885
Speaker 2: and your surname and I said o'donald. She said, oh,

1030
01:02:56,005 --> 01:03:01,005
Speaker 2: just like the famous actress like me, you know. And

1031
01:03:01,805 --> 01:03:04,565
Speaker 2: so she said to me, why do you walk your

1032
01:03:04,645 --> 01:03:07,005
Speaker 2: kid to school every day? Nobody else with the kid

1033
01:03:07,125 --> 01:03:09,805
Speaker 2: who's twelve, walks them to school every day. They walk

1034
01:03:09,885 --> 01:03:12,765
Speaker 2: with them with their friends. And I said, well, I'm

1035
01:03:12,805 --> 01:03:16,285
Speaker 2: from New York. Kids disappear on their way to school.

1036
01:03:16,925 --> 01:03:19,205
Speaker 2: There's a constant fear that you sort of live with

1037
01:03:19,445 --> 01:03:24,005
Speaker 2: in the city and in the cities sometimes. And she said, well,

1038
01:03:24,045 --> 01:03:27,885
Speaker 2: you're not in New York anymore, Rose o'donald. You're in Dublin.

1039
01:03:27,965 --> 01:03:31,445
Speaker 2: Ireland and you're safe. And it made a huge difference

1040
01:03:32,005 --> 01:03:35,845
Speaker 2: in my life and my ability to calm down, my

1041
01:03:36,005 --> 01:03:42,325
Speaker 2: ability to enjoy the moments. And there is no celebrity

1042
01:03:42,405 --> 01:03:46,005
Speaker 2: worship in Ireland, and I think that's beautiful. Everyone treats

1043
01:03:46,045 --> 01:03:50,285
Speaker 2: you as a person. They say to you, well, welcome

1044
01:03:50,365 --> 01:03:52,645
Speaker 2: to Ireland. They don't say can I have an autograph?

1045
01:03:52,685 --> 01:03:55,045
Speaker 2: Can I have a picture? They say you're welcome here.

1046
01:03:56,245 --> 01:04:00,925
Speaker 1: If the move was instigated twofold. I gather for Clay,

1047
01:04:01,725 --> 01:04:05,885
Speaker 1: for Clay's wellbeing and of course by extension your wellbeing. Yes,

1048
01:04:06,245 --> 01:04:09,005
Speaker 1: have you noticed a difference in your mental health?

1049
01:04:10,525 --> 01:04:16,405
Speaker 2: Completely? Completely? I am not as worried as I was now.

1050
01:04:17,405 --> 01:04:22,285
Speaker 2: Ever since I was little, world tragedies affect me in

1051
01:04:22,405 --> 01:04:25,405
Speaker 2: a way that they don't most people. And my therapist

1052
01:04:25,485 --> 01:04:28,885
Speaker 2: has said to me, most people have windows in their house.

1053
01:04:29,245 --> 01:04:32,365
Speaker 2: They have a screen, they have a glass pane, they

1054
01:04:32,445 --> 01:04:35,845
Speaker 2: have a shade, they have curtains, and they sometimes have shutters.

1055
01:04:36,325 --> 01:04:39,445
Speaker 2: But all your windows are open, so it comes right

1056
01:04:39,525 --> 01:04:43,325
Speaker 2: into you and you're devastated by it. So as a kid,

1057
01:04:43,405 --> 01:04:47,285
Speaker 2: when I watched the Vietnam War on TV, my father

1058
01:04:47,365 --> 01:04:49,765
Speaker 2: would tell me I wasn't allowed to watch TV. Anymore,

1059
01:04:49,765 --> 01:04:54,365
Speaker 2: because I would cry about the fall of Saigon and

1060
01:04:54,925 --> 01:04:57,765
Speaker 2: all of the pain that we had to witness over

1061
01:04:57,965 --> 01:05:03,485
Speaker 2: dinner every night, and every time there's a world crisis,

1062
01:05:03,845 --> 01:05:07,085
Speaker 2: I don't do very well. And now there's a very

1063
01:05:07,165 --> 01:05:11,285
Speaker 2: big world crisis, whether it's or the United States falling

1064
01:05:11,365 --> 01:05:14,685
Speaker 2: into fascism, and I'm able to stay above the water.

1065
01:05:15,485 --> 01:05:19,325
Speaker 2: I don't go sinking underneath. And I think a lot

1066
01:05:19,405 --> 01:05:22,885
Speaker 2: of that is because I'm not in the United States.

1067
01:05:23,725 --> 01:05:27,685
Speaker 2: And I have a son who's just newly married and

1068
01:05:27,765 --> 01:05:30,125
Speaker 2: wants to have a family, and I know when he

1069
01:05:30,205 --> 01:05:32,565
Speaker 2: has a child, I will want to be there and

1070
01:05:32,845 --> 01:05:39,525
Speaker 2: be an active grandmother to that baby. And that's going

1071
01:05:39,605 --> 01:05:42,445
Speaker 2: to be a challenge for me. Is it safe for

1072
01:05:42,565 --> 01:05:45,325
Speaker 2: me to go back? Will I be all right and

1073
01:05:45,485 --> 01:05:47,765
Speaker 2: my child be all right if I go back, even

1074
01:05:47,805 --> 01:05:48,925
Speaker 2: for the summer to visit?

1075
01:05:49,445 --> 01:05:51,605
Speaker 1: You know, how is it when you've gone back? Have

1076
01:05:51,765 --> 01:05:55,405
Speaker 1: you been back? Oh? You haven't. Not even to Broadway.

1077
01:05:56,205 --> 01:05:58,805
Speaker 2: No. I gone to the West End. I saw Avida.

1078
01:05:58,885 --> 01:06:02,885
Speaker 2: It was fantastic. I saw a lot of shows on

1079
01:06:02,965 --> 01:06:06,805
Speaker 2: the West End. But no. In fact, my daughter graduated

1080
01:06:06,925 --> 01:06:10,405
Speaker 2: college and I didn't go back because the security people

1081
01:06:11,405 --> 01:06:14,445
Speaker 2: said to me they didn't think it was wise because

1082
01:06:14,485 --> 01:06:17,045
Speaker 2: I think Trump will use me to rile his base

1083
01:06:17,965 --> 01:06:23,765
Speaker 2: to get them, you know, and I'm his nemesis in

1084
01:06:24,485 --> 01:06:27,885
Speaker 2: his mind, and you know, and to them to a

1085
01:06:27,965 --> 01:06:31,485
Speaker 2: lot of like a third of the country. And that's

1086
01:06:31,525 --> 01:06:32,925
Speaker 2: a very difficult place to be.

1087
01:06:33,885 --> 01:06:36,805
Speaker 1: Very difficult. But a place that will not be difficult

1088
01:06:36,845 --> 01:06:39,285
Speaker 1: for you to be will be Australia.

1089
01:06:39,845 --> 01:06:43,725
Speaker 2: Yes, I've heard that it's very much like Ireland. I've

1090
01:06:43,805 --> 01:06:47,245
Speaker 2: heard that the people are loving and kind like Ireland,

1091
01:06:47,405 --> 01:06:50,405
Speaker 2: that there's a warmth and and a pride in the

1092
01:06:50,525 --> 01:06:55,085
Speaker 2: nation like Ireland. And you know, America is so big,

1093
01:06:56,125 --> 01:06:58,725
Speaker 2: it's too big. It's too many people. And it's almost

1094
01:06:58,885 --> 01:07:03,205
Speaker 2: like four different countries, the East, the West, the South,

1095
01:07:03,565 --> 01:07:09,725
Speaker 2: you know, the North. It's very different. And I'm it's

1096
01:07:09,765 --> 01:07:13,165
Speaker 2: so excited to come and I have dreamed of it

1097
01:07:13,365 --> 01:07:15,325
Speaker 2: my whole life. The two places I wanted to go

1098
01:07:16,085 --> 01:07:19,925
Speaker 2: was Hawaii, which I did make it too, and Australia.

1099
01:07:20,365 --> 01:07:23,125
Speaker 2: And so when I got offered to do the Sydney

1100
01:07:23,165 --> 01:07:27,525
Speaker 2: Opera House, I really couldn't believe it. For a couple days,

1101
01:07:28,125 --> 01:07:31,765
Speaker 2: I was like, are you sure? You know? And iconic, iconic,

1102
01:07:31,885 --> 01:07:35,165
Speaker 2: beyond words, and you know, in twenty thirteen, I was

1103
01:07:35,285 --> 01:07:38,365
Speaker 2: booked to come here, but I couldn't go because I

1104
01:07:38,485 --> 01:07:41,845
Speaker 2: didn't sell enough tickets, so it had to be canceled.

1105
01:07:42,205 --> 01:07:45,485
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So when they told when they asked me

1106
01:07:45,605 --> 01:07:47,765
Speaker 2: to do this, I said, just so you know, in

1107
01:07:47,885 --> 01:07:51,045
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, I couldn't sell tickets. And you know, I

1108
01:07:51,125 --> 01:07:53,325
Speaker 2: think Donald Trump has made me refamous.

1109
01:07:53,485 --> 01:07:55,845
Speaker 1: He's done you a favor, he really has.

1110
01:07:56,125 --> 01:08:00,005
Speaker 2: My brother said, if he only knew that he reignited

1111
01:08:00,125 --> 01:08:02,365
Speaker 2: your career, you know, he would be miserable.

1112
01:08:02,645 --> 01:08:07,525
Speaker 1: That and a sexual lassignation with Miranda in it, and

1113
01:08:07,765 --> 01:08:11,685
Speaker 1: just exact yeah, and just column A Columba.

1114
01:08:12,765 --> 01:08:17,005
Speaker 2: Right right, So you know, I mean, I'm thrilled that

1115
01:08:17,125 --> 01:08:19,645
Speaker 2: their ticket sales are going well. And there's talk that

1116
01:08:19,765 --> 01:08:22,685
Speaker 2: we may do other cities if we sell out in Sydney,

1117
01:08:22,805 --> 01:08:25,045
Speaker 2: and that would be thrilling for me. I'm going to

1118
01:08:25,085 --> 01:08:28,485
Speaker 2: be there for three weeks, and uh, you know, I'm

1119
01:08:28,685 --> 01:08:30,765
Speaker 2: I'm over the moon about the whole thing. And and

1120
01:08:30,925 --> 01:08:33,285
Speaker 2: my kid does not want to come. They have a

1121
01:08:33,325 --> 01:08:39,605
Speaker 2: hard time on planes for that long. And my cousins, yeah,

1122
01:08:39,685 --> 01:08:42,165
Speaker 2: my cousins are going to stay here with her, lovely

1123
01:08:42,325 --> 01:08:45,005
Speaker 2: and take care of her and get school, and so

1124
01:08:45,365 --> 01:08:48,445
Speaker 2: I'm happy about that. But it's the longest I've ever

1125
01:08:48,525 --> 01:08:51,165
Speaker 2: been away from her, so that will be interesting to

1126
01:08:51,245 --> 01:08:53,965
Speaker 2: see how I do, not how they do. I think

1127
01:08:54,045 --> 01:08:56,685
Speaker 2: they'll be fine, but it's me that I worry about more.

1128
01:08:56,845 --> 01:09:01,965
Speaker 1: You know, you know, you've had such a vigorous social

1129
01:09:02,085 --> 01:09:06,765
Speaker 1: life and social presence for so long, and you've navigated

1130
01:09:07,525 --> 01:09:11,805
Speaker 1: public love and public few dudes and public scrutiny. How

1131
01:09:12,085 --> 01:09:18,925
Speaker 1: do you want people to remember or think of Rosy O'Donnell, like,

1132
01:09:19,845 --> 01:09:22,245
Speaker 1: not the headlines, but you yourself.

1133
01:09:23,245 --> 01:09:24,885
Speaker 2: You know, the first thing I think of is that

1134
01:09:25,125 --> 01:09:28,285
Speaker 2: you know, she cared too much, you know, mostly about

1135
01:09:28,405 --> 01:09:32,045
Speaker 2: children and women, and those are the people that I

1136
01:09:32,165 --> 01:09:35,365
Speaker 2: always wanted to protect and take care of. And so

1137
01:09:36,045 --> 01:09:38,885
Speaker 2: if I'm remembered for that, you know that that will

1138
01:09:38,925 --> 01:09:41,805
Speaker 2: be a life well lived to me. I don't really,

1139
01:09:41,925 --> 01:09:45,205
Speaker 2: you know, think that any awards that I've received, like,

1140
01:09:45,245 --> 01:09:47,085
Speaker 2: I don't even have them. You know, I have a

1141
01:09:47,165 --> 01:09:50,005
Speaker 2: lot of Emmy awards, and people are like, where are they?

1142
01:09:50,525 --> 01:09:54,125
Speaker 2: They're in storage somewhere. Because I never wanted to have

1143
01:09:54,325 --> 01:10:00,525
Speaker 2: this house that was full of my accolades. I wanted

1144
01:10:00,565 --> 01:10:02,325
Speaker 2: it to be a house for children, like you know,

1145
01:10:02,845 --> 01:10:05,845
Speaker 2: this is my house, right, It's little pigs and little

1146
01:10:05,885 --> 01:10:09,845
Speaker 2: stuffed animals, and it's bright, it's colorful, like so, I

1147
01:10:10,765 --> 01:10:14,525
Speaker 2: wanted it to be a family house. And so I

1148
01:10:14,605 --> 01:10:17,125
Speaker 2: think if my legacy could be that she was all

1149
01:10:17,205 --> 01:10:21,885
Speaker 2: about you know, family and women and kids, that would

1150
01:10:21,925 --> 01:10:24,725
Speaker 2: be fine with me. But I know I'm an incendiary

1151
01:10:25,045 --> 01:10:28,205
Speaker 2: soul in America that there are people who you know,

1152
01:10:28,645 --> 01:10:33,485
Speaker 2: use famous people to tell their own story, and who

1153
01:10:33,565 --> 01:10:35,525
Speaker 2: you like and who you love and who you load

1154
01:10:36,365 --> 01:10:38,645
Speaker 2: really define who you are, not who they are.

1155
01:10:39,885 --> 01:10:45,085
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because your audience will have some of

1156
01:10:45,125 --> 01:10:48,085
Speaker 1: those will have been the people that voted for Trump,

1157
01:10:48,325 --> 01:10:52,005
Speaker 1: who once were Democrat voters. I think there's a tendency

1158
01:10:52,045 --> 01:10:54,685
Speaker 1: around the world now for people to get voted out

1159
01:10:55,045 --> 01:10:59,045
Speaker 1: as much as people get voted in. Yes, but I

1160
01:10:59,165 --> 01:11:03,685
Speaker 1: never will No, but you are of appeal to those people.

1161
01:11:05,485 --> 01:11:08,365
Speaker 1: There is a universality about you, as there has to

1162
01:11:08,485 --> 01:11:10,205
Speaker 1: be in performs.

1163
01:11:10,765 --> 01:11:16,725
Speaker 2: They you know, and I'm I'm very very high on

1164
01:11:16,885 --> 01:11:23,125
Speaker 2: the concept of uniting the country. That these people who

1165
01:11:23,245 --> 01:11:25,285
Speaker 2: voted for him, you know, they were lied to by

1166
01:11:25,325 --> 01:11:27,805
Speaker 2: the media. They were lied to by The Apprentice, which

1167
01:11:27,885 --> 01:11:32,205
Speaker 2: was a fictional show reality show, and they sold him

1168
01:11:32,245 --> 01:11:35,245
Speaker 2: for ten years as a successful businessman and it was

1169
01:11:35,325 --> 01:11:39,325
Speaker 2: all a lie and they were lied to for a

1170
01:11:39,485 --> 01:11:44,525
Speaker 2: long time by very powerful systems. And when they say

1171
01:11:45,365 --> 01:11:47,605
Speaker 2: I regret it and I now see, we have to

1172
01:11:47,645 --> 01:11:51,565
Speaker 2: say welcome back, come on in. You know, my sister,

1173
01:11:51,725 --> 01:11:55,445
Speaker 2: my brother, come on back. We understand and it's not

1174
01:11:55,565 --> 01:11:59,445
Speaker 2: your fault and we can do this together and save

1175
01:11:59,525 --> 01:12:03,765
Speaker 2: our nation. And that's what I hope that. You know,

1176
01:12:03,885 --> 01:12:06,525
Speaker 2: a lot of times people will write on TikTok or

1177
01:12:06,605 --> 01:12:09,245
Speaker 2: something that I voted for him and I regretted it,

1178
01:12:09,325 --> 01:12:11,485
Speaker 2: and people will say, well, too bad, I hope everything

1179
01:12:11,565 --> 01:12:14,125
Speaker 2: bad happens. I'm like, that's not what I feel. I

1180
01:12:14,245 --> 01:12:17,885
Speaker 2: feel like everyone who says that is entitled to have

1181
01:12:18,005 --> 01:12:20,805
Speaker 2: the same respect and decency that we afford each other.

1182
01:12:22,245 --> 01:12:23,245
Speaker 1: Do you believe in God?

1183
01:12:24,405 --> 01:12:32,085
Speaker 2: Yes? I do? Mm hmm, you're not a kidding. I

1184
01:12:32,285 --> 01:12:37,245
Speaker 2: really do. And I found that as I've gotten older,

1185
01:12:37,685 --> 01:12:44,765
Speaker 2: it's it's grown my connection to to God and to

1186
01:12:46,285 --> 01:12:51,125
Speaker 2: a spiritual truth. It's grown as I've gotten older, and

1187
01:12:51,325 --> 01:12:53,805
Speaker 2: and it provides me with a tremendous amount of solace.

1188
01:12:53,965 --> 01:12:56,245
Speaker 2: I don't believe it's a man in a in a

1189
01:12:56,525 --> 01:13:00,245
Speaker 2: chair up in heaven. I believe that that's the universe.

1190
01:13:02,405 --> 01:13:05,365
Speaker 2: The creation of the universe and the creation of all

1191
01:13:06,045 --> 01:13:10,525
Speaker 2: of all things is God. And and I find it

1192
01:13:10,645 --> 01:13:15,285
Speaker 2: in musicals. I find it in a baby's laugh. I

1193
01:13:15,445 --> 01:13:18,485
Speaker 2: find it in you know, an old woman at Tesco

1194
01:13:18,685 --> 01:13:22,205
Speaker 2: who was checking out the fruit, and I think that

1195
01:13:22,325 --> 01:13:24,565
Speaker 2: would be my mom if she had lived, you know.

1196
01:13:25,165 --> 01:13:30,045
Speaker 2: And I find that God in all these places in

1197
01:13:30,165 --> 01:13:32,965
Speaker 2: my life. And it's been tremendously healing.

1198
01:13:34,045 --> 01:13:38,845
Speaker 1: That little motherless girl has made quite a life for

1199
01:13:38,965 --> 01:13:40,325
Speaker 1: herself and quite a family.

1200
01:13:42,485 --> 01:13:46,245
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to believe sometimes, but I'm proud of it.

1201
01:13:47,765 --> 01:13:49,805
Speaker 1: You should be, and your mom would be.

1202
01:13:51,125 --> 01:13:51,885
Speaker 2: I think so too.

1203
01:13:53,405 --> 01:13:57,445
Speaker 1: Rosie o'donald. Yes, thank you for joining us on No Filter.

1204
01:13:58,005 --> 01:13:59,405
Speaker 2: I just want to tell you this is one of

1205
01:13:59,405 --> 01:14:02,405
Speaker 2: the best interviews I've ever had. It was you were

1206
01:14:02,485 --> 01:14:06,405
Speaker 2: really new your stuff, and you didn't ask questions that

1207
01:14:06,565 --> 01:14:09,485
Speaker 2: people typically ask me, and I'm very happy that I

1208
01:14:09,565 --> 01:14:09,765
Speaker 2: did it.

1209
01:14:10,485 --> 01:14:15,525
Speaker 1: Well, you are just so fascinating, and you've been such

1210
01:14:15,605 --> 01:14:20,885
Speaker 1: a gift to the culture and continue to be, and

1211
01:14:21,845 --> 01:14:27,525
Speaker 1: you share of yourself so generously that it would be

1212
01:14:27,685 --> 01:14:30,725
Speaker 1: remiss of me to not extend the same to you.

1213
01:14:31,605 --> 01:14:32,085
Speaker 2: Well, thank you.

1214
01:14:32,165 --> 01:14:34,245
Speaker 1: So much. It's an honor to have you on No

1215
01:14:34,405 --> 01:14:37,645
Speaker 1: Filter and to have you with our listeners, and it's

1216
01:14:37,805 --> 01:14:42,805
Speaker 1: very interesting to watch you now become the gardener as

1217
01:14:42,885 --> 01:14:45,245
Speaker 1: well as the flower exactly.

1218
01:14:46,405 --> 01:14:48,085
Speaker 2: I hope I get to meet you when I'm there.

1219
01:14:48,205 --> 01:14:51,165
Speaker 2: I hope so too, And thank you so much for

1220
01:14:51,245 --> 01:14:51,605
Speaker 2: having me.

1221
01:14:52,445 --> 01:14:55,685
Speaker 1: May the what is it the road rise to meet you.

1222
01:14:56,165 --> 01:14:59,045
Speaker 1: May the wind always be at your back. The Irish blessing,

1223
01:15:00,525 --> 01:15:01,205
Speaker 1: totally true.

1224
01:15:01,405 --> 01:15:03,765
Speaker 2: I thank you for that, and I hope that's the

1225
01:15:03,845 --> 01:15:04,725
Speaker 2: same for you.

1226
01:15:08,405 --> 01:15:10,245
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. When they talk about breaking the

1227
01:15:10,365 --> 01:15:13,725
Speaker 1: mold when they made certain people, they certainly break the

1228
01:15:13,845 --> 01:15:17,245
Speaker 1: mold when they made Rosio o'donnal. This has been a

1229
01:15:17,325 --> 01:15:21,885
Speaker 1: conversation that only miss o'donald could give us. It's insightful

1230
01:15:22,165 --> 01:15:28,085
Speaker 1: and bold and entirely unforgettable and so honest. And she

1231
01:15:28,205 --> 01:15:31,525
Speaker 1: allows herself such rawness and to go to places where

1232
01:15:32,805 --> 01:15:36,125
Speaker 1: most people would kind of close up like a clamshell.

1233
01:15:37,005 --> 01:15:41,005
Speaker 1: Few people have lived as loudly, as honestly, or as

1234
01:15:41,125 --> 01:15:45,845
Speaker 1: unapologetically as Rosio o'donnal. And from her fearless beginnings as

1235
01:15:45,885 --> 01:15:51,725
Speaker 1: a funny popular kid carrying private pain to breaking barriers

1236
01:15:51,765 --> 01:15:55,285
Speaker 1: on television and in film, to navigating public feuds and

1237
01:15:55,445 --> 01:16:00,245
Speaker 1: life under intense scrutiny. Rosie has done it all on

1238
01:16:00,405 --> 01:16:04,885
Speaker 1: her own terms. But she also is capable, which some

1239
01:16:05,045 --> 01:16:08,805
Speaker 1: people are not, of self reflection. She shares the stories

1240
01:16:08,845 --> 01:16:11,445
Speaker 1: that made her laugh, the moments that broke her heart,

1241
01:16:12,005 --> 01:16:14,925
Speaker 1: the lessons that have guided her as a mother, an activist,

1242
01:16:15,405 --> 01:16:18,445
Speaker 1: and a woman unafraid to speak her mind. I can't

1243
01:16:18,485 --> 01:16:20,885
Speaker 1: wait to catch up face to face when she's here.

1244
01:16:21,605 --> 01:16:25,325
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to No Filter. The executive producer

1245
01:16:25,365 --> 01:16:28,285
Speaker 1: of No Filter is Nama Brown, The senior producer is

1246
01:16:28,365 --> 01:16:33,445
Speaker 1: Bree Player. Audio production is by Jacob Brown, Video editing

1247
01:16:33,605 --> 01:16:37,125
Speaker 1: is by Josh Green and this episode was recorded at

1248
01:16:37,245 --> 01:16:41,965
Speaker 1: Session in Progress Studios. I am your host, Kate Langbrook.

1249
01:16:42,325 --> 01:16:44,325
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening.