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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mumma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Hi. I'm Claire Murphy.

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Speaker 2: This is Mumma MIA's twice daily news podcast, The Quikie.

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Speaker 2: If you one day decided to stop making the effort,

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Speaker 2: would your significant other have a relationship with their family

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Speaker 2: at all? If the answer is no, then you are

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Speaker 2: what is referred to as the kinkeeper in your relationship,

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Speaker 2: and it's a whole other level of mental load that

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Speaker 2: sometimes backfires and ends up with you getting the blame

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Speaker 2: for not doing enough to maintain those family ties. Today

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Speaker 2: we explore how much effort you should be putting into

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Speaker 2: being the kinkeeper and why it's okay to take a

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Speaker 2: step back. But first, here's the letters from the Quikie Newsroom, Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: December eighteenth. Ossie animated superstar Bluie is set to hit

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Speaker 2: the big screen with a movie to hit cinemas in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty seven. The Brisbane created here The Family featuring

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Speaker 2: Mum and Dad Chilian Bandit with their two daughters Blue

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Speaker 2: and Bingo, has been a hit not just among children

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Speaker 2: but their parents too, with many mums and dads sharing

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Speaker 2: on social media the emotional impact some episodes have had

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Speaker 2: on them, leaving many in tears over the heartfelt content.

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Speaker 2: It's now one of the most streamed TV shows in

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Speaker 2: the US, and back in April, Australia House in London

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Speaker 2: hosted an event where the Embassy was adorned with bluey flags.

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Speaker 2: Show created Joe Brum says he always thought Bluie deserved

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Speaker 2: a theatrical movie, hoping this will be an experiential event

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Speaker 2: for the whole family to enjoy together. The movie will

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Speaker 2: feature the original voices of Chilean Bandit and will run

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Speaker 2: on Disney Plus and ABC iView once the run in

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Speaker 2: theaters is over. The full extent of damage caused by

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Speaker 2: a seven point three magnitude earthquake in Vanuatu remains unclear

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Speaker 2: as Australia deploys assistance to help the Pacific nation. The

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Speaker 2: tremor rattled the capital Port Villa for half a minute,

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Speaker 2: causing widespread damage. The building, which hosts the US, UK, FI,

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Speaker 2: French and New Zealand diplomatic posts, was among the worst hit.

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Speaker 2: The bottom floor of the US Embassy crushed by the

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Speaker 2: floors above. Remarkably, no one in the building appears to

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Speaker 2: have been seriously hurt. With communications knocked out, it's hard

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Speaker 2: to establish just how many people have been killed or injured.

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Speaker 2: There's also no water or electricity. Caretaker Prime Minister Charlotte

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Speaker 2: Salwee issuing a state of emergency and installing a curfew

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Speaker 2: with the exception of essential services as the cleanup begins.

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Speaker 2: Former broadcaster Alan Jones will appear in court for the

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Speaker 2: first time since his arrest today, facing a raft of

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Speaker 2: charges relating to nine alleged victims. The eighty three year

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Speaker 2: old has been charged with twenty six offenses, including eleven

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Speaker 2: counts of aggravated in decent assault where the alleged victim

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Speaker 2: was under his authority. He also faces allegations of assault

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Speaker 2: with an act of indecency, sexually touching a person without consent,

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Speaker 2: and common assault. The alleged offenses took place between twenty

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Speaker 2: one and twenty nineteen, with the youngest alleged victim just

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Speaker 2: seventeen at the time. Soon after Jones's arrest back in November,

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Speaker 2: another alleged victim came forward, resulting in two additional charges,

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Speaker 2: with New South Wales Police Commissioner Karen Webb saying they

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Speaker 2: believe more victims will still come forward, telling the media

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Speaker 2: there's no such thing as a matter too old to

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Speaker 2: be investigated. Singer Olivia Rodrigo is donating millions from her

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Speaker 2: Guts World tour to women's charities, including one here in Australia.

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Speaker 2: The singer runs an organization called Fund for Good, which

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Speaker 2: is committed to building an equitable and just future for

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Speaker 2: women and girls through community based nonprofits that champion girls' education,

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Speaker 2: support women's reproductive rights, and prevent gender based violence. The

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Speaker 2: two million dollars in funds will benefit ten organizations around

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Speaker 2: the globe, including WESNET, the Australian Women's Services Network, a

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Speaker 2: national peak body for specialist women's domestic and family violence services.

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Speaker 2: That's the latest news headlines. Next Christmas brings a bunch

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Speaker 2: of extremental load for women. But one thing you can

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Speaker 2: hand back because it has never been and never should be.

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Speaker 2: Your responsibility is maintaining their relationships with your man's people.

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Speaker 2: Are you the kin keeper in your relationship? If you're

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Speaker 2: not completely sure what kin means, it's basically your people,

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Speaker 2: your family, those who raised you, those who are close

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Speaker 2: to you, and they can include parents, care as siblings, aunties,

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Speaker 2: uncles and cousins, grandparents and family friends. Your kin are

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Speaker 2: the people who know you and who you would go

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Speaker 2: to see on holidays like Christmas. When you're young, it's

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Speaker 2: pretty easy to maintain. You're one person and you have

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Speaker 2: one set of kin. Sometimes it can get a little

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Speaker 2: busy if you come from a big family with lots

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Speaker 2: of extended members, so you could be shuffling from home

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Speaker 2: to home. But essentially you can handle the holidays with

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Speaker 2: the one set per person load. But when you start

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Speaker 2: to have relationships, especially when they get serious, and mostly

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Speaker 2: when women are in relationships with men, you now find

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Speaker 2: yourself part of a duo, with each of you with

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Speaker 2: your own set of kin and the expectations on you

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Speaker 2: twin best in those relationships, but mostly only for one

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Speaker 2: of you. For many women in heterosexual relationships, they find

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Speaker 2: they become the ones who interact with their significant other's families.

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Speaker 2: They may also buy their Christmas gifts ensure they're included

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Speaker 2: in family plans on big days. They might even work

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Speaker 2: out how to split time between the two or bring

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Speaker 2: them together. Women will find themselves not only keeping their

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Speaker 2: own kin, but the kin of her partners too. Now

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Speaker 2: the formal definition of kinkeeping is written in Carolyn Rosenthal's

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five article, is the act of maintaining and

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Speaker 2: strengthening familial ties an emotional labour done out of a

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Speaker 2: sense of obligation due to emotional attachments. Rosenthal's article goes

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Speaker 2: on to describe how the kinkeeper helps extended family members

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Speaker 2: from different households stay in touch with one another, strengthening

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Speaker 2: intergenerational bonds. They facilitate the transfer of family traditions and values.

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Speaker 2: They pass on their histories and keep everyone feeling more connected.

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Speaker 2: Phone calls, emails, and texts will flow from them. Kinkeeper

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Speaker 2: in what is another form of mental load. A two

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Speaker 2: thousand and six survey finding that of the generations of

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Speaker 2: women born between nineteen thirty and nineteen seventy six, women

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Speaker 2: reported more contact with relatives in men in every single generation.

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Speaker 2: Page on her TikTok account, She's a page turner. Sum

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Speaker 2: this up when it comes to the holiday season.

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Speaker 1: Around the holidays, you will often hear this unfair narrative that, oh,

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Speaker 1: my son's wife is always with her family. Once he

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Speaker 1: married her, we no longer see him anymore. Yeah, she

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Speaker 1: really doesn't put in any effort with us, and there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of blame placed on the women. And in

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Speaker 1: these dynamics, oftentimes, what women know is that when you're

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Speaker 1: married to someone's son, you do a lot of the

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Speaker 1: work of reminding them that it's their mother's birthday. You

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Speaker 1: do the work of buying gifts at the holidays and

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Speaker 1: wrapping them for his family. You do the work of saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: we haven't seen your family in a little while, do

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Speaker 1: you want to invade them over A lot of women

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Speaker 1: take on the work of maintaining family relationships, and they

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Speaker 1: also get a lot of the blame. I think it's

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Speaker 1: really important if you are a mother in law, father

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Speaker 1: in law, whatever it may be, and your son's family

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Speaker 1: doesn't spend a lot of time with you around the holidays,

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Speaker 1: or you feel like they don't put in a lot

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Speaker 1: of effort, reminding yourself that that is not his partner's.

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Speaker 2: Fault, that is your son's fault.

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Speaker 1: If you feel like you don't see your son enough,

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Speaker 1: if you feel like they don't spend enough time with

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Speaker 1: your family, then you need to talk to your son

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Speaker 1: about that.

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Speaker 2: So how do we make the men in our lives

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Speaker 2: understand that they should be playing a role in keeping

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Speaker 2: their own kin too. Elizabeth Shaw is the CEO of

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Speaker 2: Relationships Australian New South Wales and a practicing clinical and

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Speaker 2: counseling psychologist. Elizabeth why don't men make more of an

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Speaker 2: effort to remain in contact with their own families?

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Speaker 3: Look, there's a few elements to this, you know. Part

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Speaker 3: of it is embedded in a much bigger social norm,

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Speaker 3: which is that you know, women do the emotional work

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Speaker 3: and are the relational hub for the family, and so

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Speaker 3: it's a role that women often play throughout the year.

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Speaker 3: And indeed, from the beginning of a relationship, women in

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Speaker 3: heteronormaty relationships can step into that role and men can

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Speaker 3: step back. And there's a whole lot of forces at

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Speaker 3: work about this. I think when you look at you

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Speaker 3: know this late in December, there's a lot of women

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Speaker 3: who just feel resentful and overburdened and think, why am

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Speaker 3: I lumped with this? But if you really want to

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Speaker 3: answer the question, you have to look in a much

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Speaker 3: broader context and also look at women's own investment in

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Speaker 3: playing the role because there's a number of things going

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Speaker 3: on here.

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Speaker 2: Well, can we talk about that investment? Because I was

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Speaker 2: explaining to somebody because I am the kinkeeper in my

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Speaker 2: relationship that if I don't do it, he doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: to care whether those relationships with his family members thrive

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Speaker 2: or not. So for me, there's a real element of

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Speaker 2: guilt that we are keeping a grandchild from a grandparent,

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Speaker 2: or a cousin from a cousin, or you know, a

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Speaker 2: niece from aunties and uncles, and so it feels like

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Speaker 2: if I don't do it, we'll potentially lose contact and

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Speaker 2: my daughter will have no contact with that side of

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Speaker 2: the family.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think there's a whole lot in what you've

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Speaker 3: just said. So one element of it is when you

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Speaker 3: get together with any partner, these are different values in

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Speaker 3: different ways that families operate that need to be discussed.

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Speaker 3: And it's very easy for the person who has a

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Speaker 3: family background with more contact or more expectations or more

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Speaker 3: rules around it, to judge the family that appears to

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Speaker 3: have less as lacking. But I think if you look

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Speaker 3: at it from the beginning, if you have a partner

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Speaker 3: who says, it really doesn't bother me, it's not how

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Speaker 3: my family operates, it's not necessary, and you know some

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Speaker 3: will be bothered, but they to a degree won't even

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Speaker 3: be bothered. Then I think what I often see is

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Speaker 3: women getting agitated about that, and from a position of judgment,

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Speaker 3: well that's not okay. You know, we could show leadership here.

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Speaker 3: We need to behave differently. When your partner is saying

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Speaker 3: I really don't need to do that, you've also got

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Speaker 3: a bear in mind. But his family may be quite

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Speaker 3: used to the role that he plays. They might be

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Speaker 3: quite used to seeing him in that way. The way

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Speaker 3: he shows up is the way that is familiar. So

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Speaker 3: I think we always want our partners to look good,

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Speaker 3: and we also want to look good as the in laws.

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Speaker 3: So I think helping your partner to be better than

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Speaker 3: they have been is growth we can all benefit from.

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Speaker 3: You know, a good relationship offers that growth. If it's

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Speaker 3: done from a position of look more, connection could really

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Speaker 3: benefit you and you could enjoy it. That comes from

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Speaker 3: a lovely, generous place. If it is will your behavior

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Speaker 3: is substandard and your family actually isn't behaving as it could,

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Speaker 3: and I'm going to need to fix all this up,

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Speaker 3: then that starts to set up a train that is

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Speaker 3: quite a judgy burden. And once that happens, if your

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Speaker 3: partner does feel a bit judged, then what can happen

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Speaker 3: just to paint a sort of extreme picture, they can

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Speaker 3: start to think, oh, well, if you're going to be

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Speaker 3: like that, you do it. And that's part of how

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Speaker 3: these things get started, is I don't need to do this.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't do it on my own statements. Lovely, you

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Speaker 3: do it. If you want to do it, you do it.

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Speaker 3: And I think then women are socialized to do that

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Speaker 3: work and are actually managing their own judgment, which is

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Speaker 3: I will feel bad if I don't do these things

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Speaker 3: because I expect this of myself, and really, a healthy

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Speaker 3: couple will be discussing these things openly and transparently, and

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Speaker 3: everybody should own their own needs. So ideally women would say, look,

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't be comfortable if I didn't offer an equivalent

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Speaker 3: to what I would offer my own family. If you

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Speaker 3: own it and you come from that place, then that's

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Speaker 3: a very useful conversation for a couple to have. Whereas

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Speaker 3: if you come from the place of, well, you're not

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Speaker 3: doing the right thing, and so here I go again,

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Speaker 3: I have to step in for you, that's probably a

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Speaker 3: conversation that will go less.

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Speaker 2: Well, can we talk about the in laws, because and

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Speaker 2: I mean the parents or the family of the son

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Speaker 2: in question, because there seems to be this narrative to

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Speaker 2: especially when it comes to Christmas time. I've seen this

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Speaker 2: happen with my very own eyes, that a woman has

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Speaker 2: organized Christmas and it might center around her own family.

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Speaker 2: That's the plans that she's made. Her husband partner male

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Speaker 2: in this relationship, has not made plans with his family.

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Speaker 2: If she does not do anything about that, then that's

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Speaker 2: how it works. And then sometimes the in laws get

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Speaker 2: this vibe that they don't do anything with us, or

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Speaker 2: he doesn't do anything with us. Now that he's gotten married,

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Speaker 2: it's all about her and her family, and she kind

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Speaker 2: of gets the blame for his lack of connection with them.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that in laws need to understand that

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Speaker 2: it's their son they need to speak to about this,

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Speaker 2: and possibly not their new daughter in law.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think this happens with both sides of the family.

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Speaker 3: That we always want to be protective of the person

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Speaker 3: who belongs to us. So it's very easy for families

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Speaker 3: to say, well, this wouldn't have happened if the partner

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Speaker 3: didn't drive this. And yes, I think it's true that

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Speaker 3: women will often stay true to their families more than

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Speaker 3: men do because some of these rituals, they're not socialized

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Speaker 3: to feel that they're as important, and they are often

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Speaker 3: genuinely happy to go wherever the party is, and so

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Speaker 3: they don't have that same level of attachment or engagement

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Speaker 3: and they do give ground. So again, I think what

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Speaker 3: needs to happen is this open conversation between the couple.

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Speaker 3: I think if you talk about it through how do

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Speaker 3: we manage the in laws, which is kind of part

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Speaker 3: B to it, you can lose track of how do

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Speaker 3: we as a couple stay tight and show leadership and

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Speaker 3: give the right messages, And that would be where the

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Speaker 3: couple can also determine. Look for us to manage relationships

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Speaker 3: and for women to say, look, I'm going to be

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Speaker 3: seen negatively and I need you to take part in

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Speaker 3: managing that, and certainly with the in laws absolutely to

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Speaker 3: say to them, you know, look, I've just gone about

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Speaker 3: organizing with my family and be really open to discussing

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Speaker 3: what we can all do together. Have you talked to

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Speaker 3: some about that? I think to be able to gently

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Speaker 3: nudge is a good idea rather than just let it

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Speaker 3: be silent and talked about behind your back.

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth. This seems to be part of a bigger picture

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Speaker 2: when we talk about mental load in general, that we

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Speaker 2: very clearly understand that women shoulder more of it. Men

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Speaker 2: seem to be very comfortable just kind of letting go

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Speaker 2: of things and allowing things to happen around them because

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Speaker 2: women make them happen. How do we stop feeling resentful

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Speaker 2: and start feeling like we get a partnership in this

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Speaker 2: without it sounding like you haven't done this again? Why

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Speaker 2: haven't you done this again? And how do we have

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Speaker 2: those open discussions without it becoming like an accusation.

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Speaker 3: Look, it's really difficult when the years have passed and

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Speaker 3: you could really feel worn down and burnt out from it.

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Speaker 3: So when you're first together, in fact, you know, women

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Speaker 3: do this whole nesting thing, and from the moment of

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Speaker 3: the gift registry and the discussion of you know, I

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Speaker 3: like to take the classic path of the wedding where

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Speaker 3: it's a woman's day, the whole nesting and relational piece

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Speaker 3: does become hers and a lot of women do really

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Speaker 3: enjoy that and step into the role and without being

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Speaker 3: conscious of it so much, take up that space. And

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Speaker 3: the benefits that women get is also being the central figure.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: The downside of being the central figure is you carry

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Speaker 3: this giant burden of obligations and tasks. But the upside

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Speaker 3: is it's really rather lovely often to be the centerpiece,

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Speaker 3: you know, And I think that's what we also need

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Speaker 3: to bear in mind, that there is a benefit to

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Speaker 3: being central in a family hub. But the downside is

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Speaker 3: that often over the years we've brought into it. I

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Speaker 3: see a lot of women who actually do feel exhausted,

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Speaker 3: who speed up and in fact can come up with

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Speaker 3: even more elaborate plans for Christmas and going to hyperdrive.

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Speaker 3: I think what we've got to do is own that

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Speaker 3: we've participated. If you are in a really unfair burdensome relationship,

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Speaker 3: that is the bigger problem that you need to deal with.

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Speaker 3: And so after Christmas you might say, there is really

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Speaker 3: a problem in our relationship, and I need to look

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Speaker 3: at domestic inequity, because that is a true and real

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Speaker 3: phenomena when it comes to big festivals. Sometimes women themselves

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Speaker 3: make plans that are more elaborate and do start to

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Speaker 3: eye roll, but then press on as always. So I

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Speaker 3: think the best thing to do would be to own

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Speaker 3: that we've brought into it. Sometimes that is because we're

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Speaker 3: with a tyrant, but sometimes it's not. We've brought into

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Speaker 3: it from a happy place that turned into a horrible place.

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Speaker 3: So much better to say, you know me, I really

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Speaker 3: love Christmas. I do put on a big show. I

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Speaker 3: make a big effort. I kind of love it, and

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Speaker 3: then I hate it. I want to still put on

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Speaker 3: a good show, but I'd like to negotiate how we

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Speaker 3: do that. And I think what you'd really have to

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Speaker 3: do is be genuinely open to the negotiation, because I've

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Speaker 3: again seen many women try and pass on the bat

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Speaker 3: and by saying I'm sick of this and I want

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Speaker 3: you to do fifty percent of the tasks I set

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Speaker 3: for you. So it's like I'm going to do it

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Speaker 3: my way, but you have to save me from my

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Speaker 3: own plan. Whereas I think what you need to be

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Speaker 3: able to do is say, maybe it's a chance to

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Speaker 3: re look at the whole thing, and what could I

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Speaker 3: let myself off the hook from. Maybe I could let

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Speaker 3: the kids do a bit more. Maybe I could let

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Speaker 3: the in laws when they offer to bring a plate,

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Speaker 3: I could say yes, that'd be excellent. Maybe I could

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Speaker 3: have fewer courses, you know, maybe I don't have to

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Speaker 3: have every single decoration out, so you could also liberate

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Speaker 3: yourself from some of it, but also be careful. If

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Speaker 3: you genuinely want to reverse a cycle in your family,

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Speaker 3: you need to come to it from a position of

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Speaker 3: giving ground as well, not saying I'm sick of this.

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Speaker 3: You have to be fifty percent exactly the same as me,

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Speaker 3: because that's just going to look controlling and unhelpful.

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Speaker 2: Are all your Christmas plans sorted, Elizabeth?

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Speaker 3: They're absolutely not. In fact, the closer I get, the

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Speaker 3: more elements fall apart and fall over. So at this

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Speaker 3: stage I'm not even sure what's happening on the twenty

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Speaker 3: fifth that I'm just trying to go with it.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for taking the time to feed your mind with

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Speaker 2: us today. The quickie is produced by me Claire Murphy

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Speaker 2: and our executive producer Taylor Strano, with audio production by

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Speaker 2: Siegan sad Love.