1
00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:13,047
Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast.

2
00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767
Speaker 2: Mama Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

3
00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:20,287
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Hello, out Louders, I'm

4
00:00:20,327 --> 00:00:22,687
Speaker 2: in your ears today to bring you a very special

5
00:00:22,727 --> 00:00:25,767
Speaker 2: episode of No Filter because this week I sat down

6
00:00:25,967 --> 00:00:29,527
Speaker 2: with Jackie O and her best friend Gemma to talk

7
00:00:29,527 --> 00:00:33,767
Speaker 2: about Jackie's addiction. It was about how she became addicted

8
00:00:33,807 --> 00:00:37,167
Speaker 2: to pills and alcohol, what that addiction looked like from

9
00:00:37,247 --> 00:00:40,647
Speaker 2: the inside, and also what it looked like from the outside,

10
00:00:40,767 --> 00:00:45,727
Speaker 2: what everybody else was thinking because nobody knew, literally nobody knew,

11
00:00:46,047 --> 00:00:50,047
Speaker 2: and I wanted to invite her best friend, Jemma O'Neil

12
00:00:50,127 --> 00:00:53,287
Speaker 2: to sit down with us as well, because the first

13
00:00:53,367 --> 00:00:56,927
Speaker 2: phone call jack made when she hit rock bottom, and

14
00:00:56,967 --> 00:01:00,047
Speaker 2: the first person that she told was Gemma, and I

15
00:01:00,087 --> 00:01:03,567
Speaker 2: wanted to understand how Jemma got her through it, how

16
00:01:03,607 --> 00:01:07,687
Speaker 2: that friendship saved her life, and what we can all

17
00:01:07,807 --> 00:01:10,647
Speaker 2: learn if we're struggling with addiction or if someone we

18
00:01:10,727 --> 00:01:13,927
Speaker 2: love is struggling with addiction. I know that a lot

19
00:01:13,967 --> 00:01:18,687
Speaker 2: of out louders have addiction in their lives somewhere. It's

20
00:01:18,727 --> 00:01:21,847
Speaker 2: something that we have to grapple with and we also

21
00:01:21,887 --> 00:01:25,487
Speaker 2: talk so much about friendship out loud. Anyway, I hope

22
00:01:25,487 --> 00:01:28,087
Speaker 2: you enjoy this episode. Let us know what you think.

23
00:01:29,287 --> 00:01:31,887
Speaker 1: You have to be quite calculated. You know, you might

24
00:01:31,927 --> 00:01:34,007
Speaker 1: go out to dinner and then you're like, Okay, how

25
00:01:34,007 --> 00:01:35,727
Speaker 1: many pills do I need? Where do I hide them?

26
00:01:35,767 --> 00:01:38,687
Speaker 1: If someone says, oh, can I borrow your lipstick and

27
00:01:38,727 --> 00:01:41,967
Speaker 1: they open your bag, you immediately panic, thinking, shit, are

28
00:01:42,007 --> 00:01:44,207
Speaker 1: they going to see these pills in there?

29
00:01:53,807 --> 00:01:56,207
Speaker 2: For mom and me, you're listening to no filter. I'm

30
00:01:56,247 --> 00:01:59,327
Speaker 2: me a Friedman and it is pretty unusual for me

31
00:01:59,367 --> 00:02:02,127
Speaker 2: to interview the same person twice within the space of

32
00:02:02,127 --> 00:02:04,527
Speaker 2: a year. I don't think it's ever happened before. But

33
00:02:04,607 --> 00:02:07,487
Speaker 2: the last time I sat down with Jackie O, one

34
00:02:07,527 --> 00:02:11,287
Speaker 2: half of the most successful radio duo in Australian history,

35
00:02:11,927 --> 00:02:14,527
Speaker 2: she had a secret not just from me, but from

36
00:02:14,527 --> 00:02:18,567
Speaker 2: almost everyone in her life. Her friends, her colleagues, the

37
00:02:18,647 --> 00:02:21,767
Speaker 2: men she'd begun dating after her divorce from the father

38
00:02:21,847 --> 00:02:26,087
Speaker 2: of her daughter Kitty, even from her co host Kyle Sanderleans.

39
00:02:27,207 --> 00:02:30,647
Speaker 2: Nobody knew that Jackie O was addicted to pills and

40
00:02:30,727 --> 00:02:35,567
Speaker 2: alcohol and had been for years. The story they thought

41
00:02:35,607 --> 00:02:38,167
Speaker 2: they knew is that she'd lost a whole lot of

42
00:02:38,167 --> 00:02:41,007
Speaker 2: weight because she was on a zepic or because she'd

43
00:02:41,007 --> 00:02:44,687
Speaker 2: had surgery. That's what the gossip site said, and that's

44
00:02:44,727 --> 00:02:48,207
Speaker 2: how the rooms wet. But everyone missed the real story,

45
00:02:48,847 --> 00:02:52,927
Speaker 2: which was so much bigger and deeper and more sad

46
00:02:53,007 --> 00:02:56,687
Speaker 2: than you would expect from someone who, from the outside anyways,

47
00:02:56,727 --> 00:03:03,007
Speaker 2: seemed so successful and so powerful and so glamorous. When

48
00:03:03,047 --> 00:03:06,327
Speaker 2: I last spoke to Jackie, it was a great conversation.

49
00:03:06,487 --> 00:03:10,607
Speaker 2: She was her usual down to earth self, deprecating, no bullshit,

50
00:03:10,927 --> 00:03:15,007
Speaker 2: funny self, despite having just signed a new ten year

51
00:03:15,047 --> 00:03:18,287
Speaker 2: contract for her radio show with Kyle that was worth

52
00:03:18,367 --> 00:03:21,767
Speaker 2: a reported one hundred million dollars. We spoke about that

53
00:03:22,207 --> 00:03:24,807
Speaker 2: on that episode, and we spoke about Kyle. But today

54
00:03:24,807 --> 00:03:28,087
Speaker 2: we're not talking about those things, not about money, not

55
00:03:28,247 --> 00:03:32,047
Speaker 2: about Kyle. Today we're talking about the secret that Jackie

56
00:03:32,127 --> 00:03:34,847
Speaker 2: has only just shared with the world in her memoir

57
00:03:35,007 --> 00:03:40,127
Speaker 2: called Suitably The Whole Truth. And today she also has

58
00:03:40,167 --> 00:03:43,687
Speaker 2: someone sitting beside her in the studio because Jemma O'Neil

59
00:03:43,927 --> 00:03:47,487
Speaker 2: is not only Jackie's best friend and her manager and

60
00:03:47,567 --> 00:03:51,167
Speaker 2: her business partner, she's the one who Jackie called when

61
00:03:51,207 --> 00:03:54,607
Speaker 2: she hit rock bottom. On the darkest day of her life,

62
00:03:55,207 --> 00:03:58,407
Speaker 2: and to understand the story of Jackie's addiction and recovery

63
00:03:58,567 --> 00:04:01,007
Speaker 2: from the inside. I knew that I wanted to hear

64
00:04:01,047 --> 00:04:03,727
Speaker 2: Jemma's point of view as well. So let's jump in.

65
00:04:04,527 --> 00:04:06,087
Speaker 2: I should start at the beginning, but I want to

66
00:04:06,087 --> 00:04:08,367
Speaker 2: start in the middle, and I want to get my

67
00:04:08,487 --> 00:04:12,127
Speaker 2: timing right. There was a weekend in I think twenty

68
00:04:12,167 --> 00:04:15,767
Speaker 2: twenty two where there is a series of phone calls

69
00:04:16,287 --> 00:04:21,047
Speaker 2: that changed your life, Jack, and then your life Gemma.

70
00:04:21,287 --> 00:04:23,687
Speaker 2: The first phone call came to you, Jack on a

71
00:04:23,727 --> 00:04:28,647
Speaker 2: Sunday morning from someone telling you that your life had

72
00:04:28,727 --> 00:04:31,367
Speaker 2: changed in a big way. Can you tell me about

73
00:04:31,447 --> 00:04:34,887
Speaker 2: where you were when that phone call arrived, like physically,

74
00:04:35,647 --> 00:04:36,407
Speaker 2: how are you feeling?

75
00:04:36,487 --> 00:04:40,927
Speaker 1: What were you doing? I think it was just a

76
00:04:40,967 --> 00:04:42,927
Speaker 1: normal Sunday morning.

77
00:04:42,767 --> 00:04:44,607
Speaker 2: Which was what for you at that time.

78
00:04:44,767 --> 00:04:47,767
Speaker 1: So Gemma had been around the night before with another

79
00:04:47,807 --> 00:04:51,607
Speaker 1: friend of ours, Kim, and so we'd been drinking and

80
00:04:51,847 --> 00:04:55,607
Speaker 1: having a great girls night, and I think I would

81
00:04:55,647 --> 00:04:58,607
Speaker 1: have finished up around two am, and then I think

82
00:04:58,687 --> 00:05:01,567
Speaker 1: around the time that I have no idea what time

83
00:05:01,607 --> 00:05:04,887
Speaker 1: I got up the next day actually, and it was

84
00:05:05,007 --> 00:05:10,087
Speaker 1: just probably me, you know, eating, drinking, watching TV and

85
00:05:10,127 --> 00:05:13,647
Speaker 1: then I got a phone call from the person who

86
00:05:13,767 --> 00:05:17,487
Speaker 1: was supplying me with the painkillers, the only person who

87
00:05:17,767 --> 00:05:20,767
Speaker 1: has ever done that. I've never been able to access

88
00:05:20,767 --> 00:05:25,047
Speaker 1: them before like that, and that person called me to

89
00:05:25,087 --> 00:05:28,807
Speaker 1: say that they couldn't do it anymore because they had

90
00:05:28,847 --> 00:05:33,407
Speaker 1: been busted. I was. I took the call outside and

91
00:05:33,607 --> 00:05:35,927
Speaker 1: I just remember thinking, Oh my god, this is it.

92
00:05:36,007 --> 00:05:39,047
Speaker 1: This is the moment I feared. What am I going

93
00:05:39,127 --> 00:05:41,687
Speaker 1: to do? You know, all these thoughts run through your

94
00:05:41,727 --> 00:05:45,367
Speaker 1: head of like oh shit, now what like you know,

95
00:05:45,687 --> 00:05:47,247
Speaker 1: how am I going to get out of this? How

96
00:05:47,287 --> 00:05:50,487
Speaker 1: am I going to taper off this kind of amount

97
00:05:50,567 --> 00:05:51,927
Speaker 1: that I'm taking of medication?

98
00:05:52,647 --> 00:05:53,887
Speaker 2: How long had you been taking it for?

99
00:05:54,087 --> 00:05:56,727
Speaker 1: Well, I would say it was the beginning of COVID

100
00:05:56,847 --> 00:06:00,447
Speaker 1: was when it got really bad. So it originally started

101
00:06:00,647 --> 00:06:04,367
Speaker 1: about fifteen years prior when I had been prescribed a

102
00:06:04,407 --> 00:06:07,847
Speaker 1: really strong painkiller and don't which people know in Australia

103
00:06:07,927 --> 00:06:10,687
Speaker 1: is like oxy content in.

104
00:06:10,807 --> 00:06:14,687
Speaker 2: The strongest painkiller. I think that you cand it. It's no,

105
00:06:14,767 --> 00:06:16,887
Speaker 2: you can't get it over counters. It's usually you get

106
00:06:16,887 --> 00:06:20,127
Speaker 2: prescribed it after an operation or you had it for endometriotus.

107
00:06:20,327 --> 00:06:22,927
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I had it for the endometriosis. They'd given

108
00:06:22,927 --> 00:06:25,567
Speaker 1: me other painkillers that weren't very effective, and it was

109
00:06:25,687 --> 00:06:30,647
Speaker 1: really severe pain at the time. And yeah, it's very

110
00:06:30,647 --> 00:06:33,967
Speaker 1: difficult to get end on rightly, so in this country,

111
00:06:34,327 --> 00:06:38,567
Speaker 1: and so that's where it started. And then I think

112
00:06:38,807 --> 00:06:43,607
Speaker 1: because you couldn't even access something like that, you couldn't

113
00:06:43,607 --> 00:06:46,287
Speaker 1: just even go doctor shopping for it, because doctors are

114
00:06:46,367 --> 00:06:49,647
Speaker 1: extremely aware that there are people out there like me

115
00:06:50,167 --> 00:06:52,487
Speaker 1: who are abusing it, and so can.

116
00:06:52,447 --> 00:06:54,487
Speaker 2: You explain doctor shopping. One of the things I found

117
00:06:54,567 --> 00:06:59,887
Speaker 2: most interesting in your book was getting inside addiction, and

118
00:07:00,207 --> 00:07:03,167
Speaker 2: one of the things that came across so much was

119
00:07:03,687 --> 00:07:05,327
Speaker 2: how time consuming. It is.

120
00:07:05,447 --> 00:07:07,447
Speaker 1: Time consuming so time like.

121
00:07:07,407 --> 00:07:10,927
Speaker 2: There's the money, there's all of those things, but it like,

122
00:07:11,087 --> 00:07:14,247
Speaker 2: what was the process of getting the amount of drugs

123
00:07:14,287 --> 00:07:16,447
Speaker 2: that you needed before you found this person who could

124
00:07:16,527 --> 00:07:17,047
Speaker 2: supply it.

125
00:07:17,247 --> 00:07:21,007
Speaker 1: Well, See, the thing is I got the intake increased

126
00:07:21,127 --> 00:07:25,167
Speaker 1: because of the person I ran into and because I

127
00:07:25,287 --> 00:07:30,447
Speaker 1: had access to it freely, it then increased tenfold very quickly.

128
00:07:31,007 --> 00:07:34,687
Speaker 1: So originally when I was prescribed the end DOMEE, I

129
00:07:34,767 --> 00:07:39,127
Speaker 1: really wasn't taking it to it. It was just one

130
00:07:39,207 --> 00:07:42,287
Speaker 1: extra here and there. When I was a.

131
00:07:42,247 --> 00:07:44,447
Speaker 3: Lot to treat pain, to just take the edge of

132
00:07:44,647 --> 00:07:47,127
Speaker 3: Obviously it was originally to treat the pain, and then

133
00:07:47,167 --> 00:07:49,607
Speaker 3: it became like, oh, I'm having a really shit day,

134
00:07:49,647 --> 00:07:51,727
Speaker 3: I might take one of those because they give me

135
00:07:51,767 --> 00:07:52,847
Speaker 3: a really nice feeling.

136
00:07:53,527 --> 00:07:59,407
Speaker 1: And so doctor shopping for something like that is really awful.

137
00:07:59,607 --> 00:08:01,727
Speaker 1: I can't even begin to tell you. The whole thing

138
00:08:01,887 --> 00:08:06,127
Speaker 1: feels just dirty. And you're you know, you're lying, you

139
00:08:06,247 --> 00:08:09,167
Speaker 1: know you're doing something wrong, and you're not stopping yourself

140
00:08:09,287 --> 00:08:11,007
Speaker 1: and doing it. So you're famous.

141
00:08:11,207 --> 00:08:14,247
Speaker 2: How do you doctor shop when you're Jackie O and

142
00:08:14,287 --> 00:08:20,647
Speaker 2: you're that recognizable in waiting rooms? Yeah, by doctors, by receptionists.

143
00:08:21,447 --> 00:08:24,167
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you go far and wide. That's the thing.

144
00:08:24,247 --> 00:08:27,287
Speaker 1: You try not to go to a doctor surgery in

145
00:08:27,327 --> 00:08:30,487
Speaker 1: the same suburb too, in the same because who knows

146
00:08:30,487 --> 00:08:32,847
Speaker 1: if those people know each other, and we'll say, oh,

147
00:08:32,967 --> 00:08:35,087
Speaker 1: Jackie O came into the doctor surgery today, and the

148
00:08:35,167 --> 00:08:37,887
Speaker 1: other one goes, yeah, me too. You know, alarm bells

149
00:08:37,887 --> 00:08:41,607
Speaker 1: would go off. So it's incredibly devious behavior.

150
00:08:41,767 --> 00:08:43,727
Speaker 2: And what did you have to say to the doctors?

151
00:08:44,407 --> 00:08:47,087
Speaker 1: Would I would tell the truth? But you know, it

152
00:08:47,127 --> 00:08:49,967
Speaker 1: was it was as though I'd also said that story

153
00:08:49,967 --> 00:08:52,047
Speaker 1: to the other doctor. So I was getting twice the

154
00:08:52,087 --> 00:08:54,447
Speaker 1: amount I needed. So it wasn't that I was lying

155
00:08:54,487 --> 00:08:56,927
Speaker 1: about the pain. I was telling them about the end

156
00:08:56,967 --> 00:09:00,967
Speaker 1: of metriosis. And yeah, a lot of the time, every

157
00:09:01,047 --> 00:09:02,647
Speaker 1: now and again, a doctor would go, I don't feel

158
00:09:02,687 --> 00:09:03,807
Speaker 1: comfortable prescribing this.

159
00:09:04,087 --> 00:09:06,287
Speaker 2: And did you feel so ashamed when that happened?

160
00:09:06,327 --> 00:09:09,247
Speaker 1: I really did. Yeah, it was That was the worst

161
00:09:09,367 --> 00:09:11,527
Speaker 1: part is the shame that comes with it.

162
00:09:11,647 --> 00:09:13,047
Speaker 2: How do you end that conversation.

163
00:09:13,167 --> 00:09:16,967
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, okay, yeah, you just exactly. You just

164
00:09:17,007 --> 00:09:19,487
Speaker 1: go okay, and they go, I'll prescribe you this instead.

165
00:09:20,767 --> 00:09:24,047
Speaker 2: And one time because you became worried that there would

166
00:09:24,087 --> 00:09:27,487
Speaker 2: be some central record. Yeah, so you knew you couldn't

167
00:09:27,487 --> 00:09:30,207
Speaker 2: give a false name, so you gave a false birth date.

168
00:09:30,727 --> 00:09:31,807
Speaker 2: When did that go wrong?

169
00:09:33,647 --> 00:09:37,287
Speaker 1: I was just writing down whatever birthdate came to my mind.

170
00:09:37,407 --> 00:09:39,087
Speaker 1: When they give you the form to go and sit

171
00:09:39,167 --> 00:09:41,607
Speaker 1: down and write out your details. Gais a couple of numbers, Yeah,

172
00:09:41,647 --> 00:09:44,327
Speaker 1: pick a couple of numbers. Any numbers doesn't matter. Actually

173
00:09:44,407 --> 00:09:48,607
Speaker 1: it does matter when it's February. Because I wrote February thirty.

174
00:09:50,407 --> 00:09:52,927
Speaker 1: I got busted. I went to the receptionist. She's typing

175
00:09:52,927 --> 00:09:55,927
Speaker 1: it in she goes, wait, so your birthday is February thirty,

176
00:09:56,487 --> 00:09:58,647
Speaker 1: and I no, she didn't even say February. She went

177
00:09:58,847 --> 00:10:01,327
Speaker 1: the thirtieth of the second. So I didn't admit and

178
00:10:01,367 --> 00:10:05,407
Speaker 1: I was like yeah, and oh god, again the shame,

179
00:10:05,767 --> 00:10:10,207
Speaker 1: the shame, so oh that it didn't last very long

180
00:10:10,207 --> 00:10:13,407
Speaker 1: the doctor shopping, because I actually just thought, this is,

181
00:10:13,887 --> 00:10:16,327
Speaker 1: this is you got to stop like you're you're going

182
00:10:16,367 --> 00:10:18,247
Speaker 1: to get in trouble here, you know, and you're also

183
00:10:18,327 --> 00:10:22,047
Speaker 1: going to where does it end? You know? It will

184
00:10:22,207 --> 00:10:24,287
Speaker 1: it will? You'll want more and more if you keep

185
00:10:24,327 --> 00:10:28,407
Speaker 1: taking more than you should. So thankfully, I think due

186
00:10:28,407 --> 00:10:33,007
Speaker 1: to that lack of access, it stopped me from having

187
00:10:33,207 --> 00:10:36,407
Speaker 1: a full blown addiction back then, and so it didn't

188
00:10:36,487 --> 00:10:40,487
Speaker 1: really this oh well that was let me think I

189
00:10:40,487 --> 00:10:44,207
Speaker 1: would have been about It would have been maybe late twenties,

190
00:10:44,247 --> 00:10:47,927
Speaker 1: early thirties, I think when the end on one happened.

191
00:10:48,447 --> 00:10:51,727
Speaker 1: And again I wouldn't have called that an addiction. I

192
00:10:51,767 --> 00:10:54,327
Speaker 1: think that was an abuse. It was abusing something and

193
00:10:54,367 --> 00:10:57,967
Speaker 1: taking it a little bit recreationally, but not an addiction

194
00:10:58,167 --> 00:11:02,047
Speaker 1: at that point, although obviously the addictive behavior was coming out,

195
00:11:02,567 --> 00:11:06,527
Speaker 1: and so it wasn't until probably twenty nineteen, I think

196
00:11:06,967 --> 00:11:10,767
Speaker 1: late twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. I had access to it

197
00:11:10,807 --> 00:11:12,767
Speaker 1: and used it as a coping mech.

198
00:11:12,767 --> 00:11:15,487
Speaker 2: Quite a few years later, and it's years in between.

199
00:11:15,847 --> 00:11:17,647
Speaker 2: Were you doctor shopping all of that time?

200
00:11:17,767 --> 00:11:20,647
Speaker 1: No? No, no, no, no, you did stop. I did,

201
00:11:20,887 --> 00:11:24,087
Speaker 1: yeah shopping. It was almost like that was so much

202
00:11:24,167 --> 00:11:28,327
Speaker 1: effort and so much embarrassment came with that, and humiliation

203
00:11:29,047 --> 00:11:32,167
Speaker 1: because even sometimes when you were prescribed it, you could

204
00:11:32,247 --> 00:11:35,167
Speaker 1: tell the doctor was almost looking at you like you were.

205
00:11:35,967 --> 00:11:37,847
Speaker 1: I used to think to myself, God, he's looking at

206
00:11:37,887 --> 00:11:40,167
Speaker 1: me like I'm a junkie, you know, And I thought,

207
00:11:40,167 --> 00:11:42,887
Speaker 1: but you are a junkie right now in this situation,

208
00:11:43,047 --> 00:11:46,447
Speaker 1: you are pretty much like I just thought. You know,

209
00:11:46,487 --> 00:11:51,247
Speaker 1: it was too humiliating, and I thankfully stop that because

210
00:11:51,327 --> 00:11:54,967
Speaker 1: I can't. Doctor shopping is incredibly time consuming.

211
00:11:55,887 --> 00:11:58,847
Speaker 2: Is that when you started drinking more? No, not even effect.

212
00:11:59,007 --> 00:12:01,727
Speaker 1: No, I didn't. Actually I never really had a problem

213
00:12:01,807 --> 00:12:06,687
Speaker 1: with drinking. I think I would say, you know, I

214
00:12:06,687 --> 00:12:09,767
Speaker 1: guess it depends how you define a problem with drinking.

215
00:12:09,887 --> 00:12:14,167
Speaker 1: So I never really liked alcohol at all. Kitty was born,

216
00:12:14,727 --> 00:12:18,607
Speaker 1: and then suddenly it was a lot was happening with

217
00:12:18,727 --> 00:12:22,007
Speaker 1: my marriage, and then a child on top of that,

218
00:12:22,087 --> 00:12:25,087
Speaker 1: and then we obviously refused any help. We didn't get

219
00:12:25,127 --> 00:12:26,807
Speaker 1: anyone on board, so it was just Leah and I,

220
00:12:26,847 --> 00:12:31,167
Speaker 1: which is fine, you know, it's absolutely manageable. And I

221
00:12:31,207 --> 00:12:33,847
Speaker 1: think because the problems we were having, I don't know,

222
00:12:33,887 --> 00:12:36,767
Speaker 1: it just felt like, oh, suddenly I was wanting a

223
00:12:36,807 --> 00:12:39,447
Speaker 1: glass of wine as soon as she went to bed

224
00:12:39,967 --> 00:12:43,127
Speaker 1: and so. But again, it wasn't that I was drinking

225
00:12:43,167 --> 00:12:47,127
Speaker 1: too much during that period, but I absolutely did have

226
00:12:47,607 --> 00:12:52,607
Speaker 1: one or two every single day for the next thirteen years,

227
00:12:52,807 --> 00:12:54,807
Speaker 1: or not thirteen actually because I went to rehab when

228
00:12:54,847 --> 00:12:57,167
Speaker 1: she was seven days a week, but seven days a week,

229
00:12:57,247 --> 00:13:01,607
Speaker 1: and whilst I wasn't getting drunk when I was in rehab,

230
00:13:02,047 --> 00:13:03,927
Speaker 1: and went in there thinking, oh, I'm not going to

231
00:13:03,927 --> 00:13:06,047
Speaker 1: give up alcohol because I don't have a problem with that.

232
00:13:06,527 --> 00:13:10,727
Speaker 1: Once I started writing down my real life relationship to alcohol,

233
00:13:11,167 --> 00:13:14,087
Speaker 1: I thought, well, if I haven't had one day for

234
00:13:14,167 --> 00:13:17,167
Speaker 1: the last ten eleven years without a glass of wine,

235
00:13:17,287 --> 00:13:20,247
Speaker 1: then maybe there is a problem there. I mean, you

236
00:13:20,287 --> 00:13:23,367
Speaker 1: don't have to be getting drunk every night and waking

237
00:13:23,447 --> 00:13:25,647
Speaker 1: up and drinking alcohol first thing in the morning to

238
00:13:25,887 --> 00:13:28,287
Speaker 1: have a problem with alcohol. And I think that's how

239
00:13:28,327 --> 00:13:30,447
Speaker 1: I always identified.

240
00:13:30,087 --> 00:13:33,007
Speaker 2: It's like alcoholic adjacent, Yeah it is, or using it

241
00:13:33,007 --> 00:13:33,487
Speaker 2: as a crutch.

242
00:13:33,567 --> 00:13:35,007
Speaker 1: It's a dependency on it.

243
00:13:35,087 --> 00:13:38,887
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, when you got that phone call and

244
00:13:38,927 --> 00:13:42,007
Speaker 2: you think about how long had that person been in

245
00:13:42,047 --> 00:13:44,327
Speaker 2: your life who was supplying you with the pills?

246
00:13:44,687 --> 00:13:47,687
Speaker 1: Pretty much as soon as I ran into them is

247
00:13:47,727 --> 00:13:50,247
Speaker 1: when it started. So twenty nineteen I think that was.

248
00:13:50,887 --> 00:13:51,927
Speaker 1: And how would it work?

249
00:13:52,007 --> 00:13:55,567
Speaker 2: Would you like text them because I imagine they were

250
00:13:55,567 --> 00:13:58,727
Speaker 2: not doing the right thing and you were not doing

251
00:13:58,727 --> 00:13:59,287
Speaker 2: the right thing.

252
00:13:59,367 --> 00:14:00,487
Speaker 1: Yeah, so how.

253
00:14:00,287 --> 00:14:02,447
Speaker 2: Did you actually do it? Because the risk of being

254
00:14:02,447 --> 00:14:04,127
Speaker 2: caught for both of you and the stakes.

255
00:14:03,847 --> 00:14:06,847
Speaker 1: For high Yeah, I didn't think about that. It's almost

256
00:14:06,887 --> 00:14:08,407
Speaker 1: like I didn't even want to think.

257
00:14:08,247 --> 00:14:12,607
Speaker 2: About that part because it wasn't like you weren't scoring

258
00:14:12,647 --> 00:14:15,607
Speaker 2: heroine and you weren't think it was like these were

259
00:14:15,687 --> 00:14:18,407
Speaker 2: just over the counter painkillers exactly.

260
00:14:18,487 --> 00:14:21,807
Speaker 1: I thought, well, these are legal, so therefore it's not

261
00:14:21,847 --> 00:14:23,887
Speaker 1: that big a deal. That's what I told myself.

262
00:14:24,527 --> 00:14:27,447
Speaker 2: And did you feel shame when you spoke to this

263
00:14:27,527 --> 00:14:29,847
Speaker 2: person and you kept saying, I need like did you

264
00:14:29,887 --> 00:14:31,807
Speaker 2: get them by the box? Did you go and pick

265
00:14:31,847 --> 00:14:33,007
Speaker 2: them up from their house?

266
00:14:33,167 --> 00:14:37,567
Speaker 1: Like? No, I would I would meet them, and it

267
00:14:37,647 --> 00:14:41,287
Speaker 1: was actually, yeah, so they I would meet them. I

268
00:14:41,567 --> 00:14:44,407
Speaker 1: don't want to give away who this person is, but

269
00:14:44,487 --> 00:14:47,407
Speaker 1: it's not It's not like this kind of dodgy drug

270
00:14:47,447 --> 00:14:49,687
Speaker 1: deal in the middle. I'm not, you know, sitting in

271
00:14:49,727 --> 00:14:54,967
Speaker 1: their car and exchanging It wasn't quite like that, but no,

272
00:14:55,247 --> 00:14:56,247
Speaker 1: but it was like that.

273
00:14:56,447 --> 00:14:58,447
Speaker 2: It just didn't but feel like that exactly.

274
00:14:58,727 --> 00:15:03,247
Speaker 1: Yeah. It wasn't like, you know, necessarily drug dealer type.

275
00:15:03,327 --> 00:15:05,327
Speaker 2: It was yeh, a situation.

276
00:15:05,487 --> 00:15:07,287
Speaker 1: It has a different situation when you.

277
00:15:07,207 --> 00:15:09,207
Speaker 2: Think about that person, how do you feel about them?

278
00:15:11,607 --> 00:15:18,327
Speaker 1: That's a good question actually, because I know my friend

279
00:15:18,447 --> 00:15:22,887
Speaker 1: Gemma is angry with that person, but I am not

280
00:15:23,367 --> 00:15:26,527
Speaker 1: because I put them in that situation and I know

281
00:15:26,687 --> 00:15:31,727
Speaker 1: they gave me an extraordinarily large amount of medication. But

282
00:15:31,847 --> 00:15:33,567
Speaker 1: I can't turn around at the end of it all

283
00:15:33,607 --> 00:15:36,887
Speaker 1: and go, well, you shouldn't have done that. I don't know.

284
00:15:36,967 --> 00:15:40,487
Speaker 1: I just I don't know what I was lying to

285
00:15:40,527 --> 00:15:42,647
Speaker 1: them as well. I mean, I wasn't saying it was

286
00:15:42,687 --> 00:15:44,367
Speaker 1: all for me. I was saying, oh, yeah, I've got

287
00:15:44,367 --> 00:15:46,247
Speaker 1: some people at work who need you know, still knocks

288
00:15:46,287 --> 00:15:48,687
Speaker 1: as well because we all work crazy hours. Okay, So

289
00:15:48,967 --> 00:15:51,207
Speaker 1: I was lying to them all.

290
00:15:51,247 --> 00:15:55,007
Speaker 2: Slight different with the many packets of neuropan plus and

291
00:15:55,127 --> 00:15:56,487
Speaker 2: painkillers that you needed though.

292
00:15:56,607 --> 00:15:59,407
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was just because that's stuff you have

293
00:15:59,447 --> 00:16:02,207
Speaker 1: to go to a doctor and get prescribed it, and

294
00:16:03,287 --> 00:16:06,247
Speaker 1: you know that used to be an over the counter situation,

295
00:16:06,727 --> 00:16:09,887
Speaker 1: and you know they could access it and they were like, yeah, okay,

296
00:16:09,887 --> 00:16:13,407
Speaker 1: no worse, you know, I don't know do you have

297
00:16:13,447 --> 00:16:17,567
Speaker 1: contact with them anymore? No? No, no, ever since that day,

298
00:16:17,887 --> 00:16:21,607
Speaker 1: I think it was. That was it, you know, was done.

299
00:16:22,607 --> 00:16:25,007
Speaker 2: The next fine call you made after that.

300
00:16:24,887 --> 00:16:28,727
Speaker 1: One was to who Gemma my best friend?

301
00:16:29,247 --> 00:16:30,207
Speaker 2: What did you say to her?

302
00:16:30,567 --> 00:16:30,647
Speaker 4: So?

303
00:16:31,047 --> 00:16:31,247
Speaker 2: Why?

304
00:16:32,087 --> 00:16:35,767
Speaker 1: Well? I thought I needed someone who I knew could

305
00:16:35,847 --> 00:16:39,287
Speaker 1: a help me and b wouldn't judge me and was

306
00:16:39,367 --> 00:16:42,647
Speaker 1: close to me that I could trust. And Jemma knew

307
00:16:42,767 --> 00:16:45,887
Speaker 1: everything about me except that you know, she was the

308
00:16:45,887 --> 00:16:49,167
Speaker 1: one I would always talk to about any problem I

309
00:16:49,207 --> 00:16:50,687
Speaker 1: had in life, and vice versa.

310
00:16:51,247 --> 00:16:54,927
Speaker 2: Interestingly, in the book, you talk about your assistant who's

311
00:16:54,927 --> 00:16:58,247
Speaker 2: been with you for ten years, Brett, who sounds amazing. Yeah,

312
00:16:58,287 --> 00:17:02,367
Speaker 2: and she knows everything about you, yes, including this. She's

313
00:17:02,407 --> 00:17:04,807
Speaker 2: the one person or the other person besides the person

314
00:17:04,847 --> 00:17:06,887
Speaker 2: who was supplying you with it, who did know and

315
00:17:06,927 --> 00:17:10,207
Speaker 2: she would sometimes leave notes around the house because she

316
00:17:10,207 --> 00:17:12,727
Speaker 2: would see all the empty blister packs, and she would

317
00:17:13,767 --> 00:17:17,767
Speaker 2: witnessed you, you know, day and night, and she'd watched

318
00:17:17,767 --> 00:17:21,527
Speaker 2: you deteriorate along with other people. Why didn't you call

319
00:17:21,567 --> 00:17:22,687
Speaker 2: her first?

320
00:17:24,367 --> 00:17:26,727
Speaker 1: I don't feel I want to burden her with something

321
00:17:26,847 --> 00:17:29,887
Speaker 1: like that. I think with Britta and I, she is

322
00:17:30,407 --> 00:17:32,607
Speaker 1: like a big We always laugh. She's my big sister

323
00:17:32,727 --> 00:17:35,287
Speaker 1: because she's the protector, and she's the one that's always

324
00:17:35,567 --> 00:17:41,767
Speaker 1: trying to will in those days help me and I.

325
00:17:42,127 --> 00:17:45,407
Speaker 1: But she always has kept it professional.

326
00:17:45,727 --> 00:17:45,927
Speaker 3: You know.

327
00:17:46,127 --> 00:17:50,527
Speaker 1: She's always very careful not to cross the line where

328
00:17:50,287 --> 00:17:54,567
Speaker 1: we become best friends. And she's always mindful of that

329
00:17:54,567 --> 00:17:57,127
Speaker 1: that there's a line like we don't cross. We're friends,

330
00:17:57,167 --> 00:18:01,007
Speaker 1: we're like sisters, but also we're not hanging out socializing

331
00:18:01,047 --> 00:18:04,527
Speaker 1: every single day. And I feel and so there has

332
00:18:04,607 --> 00:18:07,647
Speaker 1: been a certain level of professionalism with brittan Ie and

333
00:18:07,687 --> 00:18:08,567
Speaker 1: our relationship.

334
00:18:09,927 --> 00:18:11,207
Speaker 2: That must have been a big deal for her to

335
00:18:11,207 --> 00:18:14,007
Speaker 2: write those letters. Oh absolutely, How did you feel when

336
00:18:14,007 --> 00:18:16,087
Speaker 2: you saw them, because that was the first time you'd

337
00:18:16,087 --> 00:18:17,367
Speaker 2: had a mirror held up to you.

338
00:18:17,447 --> 00:18:22,007
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, I think when you're in and when you're

339
00:18:22,007 --> 00:18:24,687
Speaker 1: in the middle of an addiction and someone does that

340
00:18:24,887 --> 00:18:28,687
Speaker 1: to you, you don't sit there and go, oh my god,

341
00:18:28,727 --> 00:18:31,407
Speaker 1: I feel so ashamed. I feel so this. Oh I

342
00:18:31,447 --> 00:18:34,287
Speaker 1: really should get help. I can't believe she you just

343
00:18:34,567 --> 00:18:37,647
Speaker 1: immediately don't think about that. Let's not think about that.

344
00:18:38,047 --> 00:18:46,927
Speaker 1: It's just you just don't want denial, big denial. Yeah.

345
00:18:46,967 --> 00:18:49,687
Speaker 2: After this short break, we hear from Gemma, who was

346
00:18:49,687 --> 00:18:52,167
Speaker 2: on the other end of that phone call, and we

347
00:18:52,287 --> 00:18:57,927
Speaker 2: find out what she did next. So you called Gemma

348
00:18:58,007 --> 00:19:00,607
Speaker 2: because she's the closest person to you, and also she

349
00:19:00,687 --> 00:19:03,967
Speaker 2: knows how to get shit done and sort shit out. Yeah,

350
00:19:04,047 --> 00:19:06,687
Speaker 2: which brings me to you, Jem and that weekend for

351
00:19:06,767 --> 00:19:10,807
Speaker 2: you the night before when you'd been over at Jack's house,

352
00:19:12,047 --> 00:19:14,327
Speaker 2: what did you notice about her and what had you

353
00:19:14,447 --> 00:19:16,607
Speaker 2: noticed over what period of time leading up to that.

354
00:19:17,567 --> 00:19:20,447
Speaker 5: I probably didn't notice much the night before, And in fact,

355
00:19:20,447 --> 00:19:21,807
Speaker 5: we was saying this the other day. It was quite

356
00:19:21,807 --> 00:19:25,687
Speaker 5: funny because I left earlier that night, which in nine sight,

357
00:19:26,007 --> 00:19:28,167
Speaker 5: thank god I did, because I needed my wits about

358
00:19:28,207 --> 00:19:28,487
Speaker 5: me the.

359
00:19:28,407 --> 00:19:29,567
Speaker 1: Next day, it turned out.

360
00:19:30,367 --> 00:19:33,527
Speaker 5: But I think I left it like nine or ten

361
00:19:34,167 --> 00:19:37,007
Speaker 5: that that night before, And to be honest with you,

362
00:19:37,047 --> 00:19:39,687
Speaker 5: there was nothing different that night as opposed to any

363
00:19:39,687 --> 00:19:41,927
Speaker 5: other night that we would hang out or day we'd

364
00:19:41,927 --> 00:19:44,887
Speaker 5: hang out. But the consistent thing that I saw was

365
00:19:44,927 --> 00:19:48,207
Speaker 5: that there was a niggling feeling that something wasn't right.

366
00:19:49,047 --> 00:19:51,807
Speaker 5: And I think that's why I got so upset when

367
00:19:51,847 --> 00:19:53,887
Speaker 5: I found out, because I was angry at myself that

368
00:19:53,927 --> 00:19:57,047
Speaker 5: I hadn't figured it out. But there was always an

369
00:19:57,127 --> 00:20:00,847
Speaker 5: excuse that I thought, like, you know, whether it was

370
00:20:00,927 --> 00:20:03,527
Speaker 5: Jack seemed really tired. Well, obviously, it turns out she

371
00:20:03,607 --> 00:20:05,927
Speaker 5: was taking fourteen still knoxes a day, so of course

372
00:20:05,927 --> 00:20:08,327
Speaker 5: she's going to be tired. But in my head, i'd

373
00:20:08,367 --> 00:20:11,247
Speaker 5: see her be really sl tired, and I'd think, well,

374
00:20:11,287 --> 00:20:15,807
Speaker 5: she does breakfast hours and she's exhausted, and you know, deniability. Yeah,

375
00:20:15,887 --> 00:20:20,647
Speaker 5: And so there was always kind of a reason. Or

376
00:20:20,687 --> 00:20:22,847
Speaker 5: I'd noticed that we'd go out for dinner and maybe

377
00:20:22,887 --> 00:20:25,527
Speaker 5: we'd only had one or two glasses of wine and

378
00:20:25,567 --> 00:20:27,927
Speaker 5: I'm obviously still fine, and Jack would seem like she

379
00:20:28,007 --> 00:20:30,527
Speaker 5: was drunk, and I'd think, again, well she.

380
00:20:30,407 --> 00:20:31,767
Speaker 1: You know, she doesn't get a lot of sleep.

381
00:20:31,887 --> 00:20:34,607
Speaker 5: So there was always this kind of I had this

382
00:20:34,847 --> 00:20:37,807
Speaker 5: justification in a way in my head, and I was

383
00:20:37,847 --> 00:20:40,047
Speaker 5: at I was at her all the time, like I

384
00:20:40,127 --> 00:20:41,807
Speaker 5: was saying, something's not right, and I think we should

385
00:20:41,847 --> 00:20:42,567
Speaker 5: take you to the doctor.

386
00:20:42,847 --> 00:20:46,047
Speaker 1: Well, during that time, I think about six weeks, maybe

387
00:20:46,047 --> 00:20:51,127
Speaker 1: even eight weeks prior I genuinely had gotten sick, had COVID.

388
00:20:51,327 --> 00:20:54,687
Speaker 1: Then I think it was like a lung or chest infection.

389
00:20:54,847 --> 00:20:56,327
Speaker 1: I just don't know what it was, but it was

390
00:20:56,447 --> 00:21:00,807
Speaker 1: constant coughing, being lethargic. And so I was sick for

391
00:21:00,847 --> 00:21:04,647
Speaker 1: this very long period of time, which I know was

392
00:21:04,687 --> 00:21:05,127
Speaker 1: for you.

393
00:21:05,367 --> 00:21:08,287
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was should be getting better, Yeah, because nothing

394
00:21:08,367 --> 00:21:11,327
Speaker 5: was changing. I thought something's not right here. But yeah,

395
00:21:11,407 --> 00:21:16,487
Speaker 5: I guess I noticed small things, but it never ever

396
00:21:16,967 --> 00:21:18,847
Speaker 5: occurred to me that it would be.

397
00:21:18,847 --> 00:21:22,567
Speaker 1: What it was. But also I was with Jack all.

398
00:21:22,407 --> 00:21:25,847
Speaker 5: The time, and she was very very good at hiding it,

399
00:21:26,207 --> 00:21:28,047
Speaker 5: like there was no signs.

400
00:21:27,807 --> 00:21:29,207
Speaker 2: Add It's a crafty, aren't they?

401
00:21:30,047 --> 00:21:31,487
Speaker 1: One hundred percent? Yeah?

402
00:21:31,527 --> 00:21:32,327
Speaker 2: How hard is that?

403
00:21:32,727 --> 00:21:33,087
Speaker 1: Well?

404
00:21:33,367 --> 00:21:34,847
Speaker 2: How calculated do you have to be?

405
00:21:35,127 --> 00:21:38,047
Speaker 1: You have to be quite calculated. You have to you know,

406
00:21:38,207 --> 00:21:40,447
Speaker 1: you might go out to dinner and then you're like, Okay,

407
00:21:40,487 --> 00:21:42,407
Speaker 1: how many pills do I need? Where do I hide them?

408
00:21:42,407 --> 00:21:45,367
Speaker 1: If someone says, oh, can I borrow your lipstick? And

409
00:21:45,407 --> 00:21:48,687
Speaker 1: they open your bag, you immediately panic, thinking, shit, are

410
00:21:48,687 --> 00:21:52,207
Speaker 1: they going to see these pills in there? You know,

411
00:21:52,287 --> 00:21:54,087
Speaker 1: so you have to hide them in the little back

412
00:21:54,087 --> 00:21:56,007
Speaker 1: pocket and then put tissues on top of it in

413
00:21:56,007 --> 00:21:58,207
Speaker 1: case someone goes to that back pocket and goes, oh,

414
00:21:58,247 --> 00:22:00,247
Speaker 1: I've lost my button? Can I put it in your

415
00:22:00,287 --> 00:22:03,247
Speaker 1: back pocket? Then you have to take the pills, and

416
00:22:03,327 --> 00:22:05,487
Speaker 1: you have to go to the bathroom, and you know,

417
00:22:05,607 --> 00:22:07,447
Speaker 1: figure out if somebody in here are they going to

418
00:22:07,527 --> 00:22:10,447
Speaker 1: look at me at the basin with the water you

419
00:22:10,647 --> 00:22:13,447
Speaker 1: just and then just the covering up of the actual

420
00:22:14,127 --> 00:22:18,687
Speaker 1: the effect, though, that isn't hard because what happened was

421
00:22:19,487 --> 00:22:23,327
Speaker 1: initially when in twenty nineteen, when I had started taking

422
00:22:23,487 --> 00:22:27,887
Speaker 1: a still Knox and some painkillers. I guess, like any drug,

423
00:22:27,967 --> 00:22:32,167
Speaker 1: they had a maximum effect and then the tolerance that

424
00:22:32,207 --> 00:22:37,687
Speaker 1: gets built up happens very very quickly, and so you're

425
00:22:38,247 --> 00:22:42,607
Speaker 1: taking more and more. But actually, if I'm really honest,

426
00:22:42,807 --> 00:22:45,687
Speaker 1: I would say the last year of my addiction, I

427
00:22:45,767 --> 00:22:49,647
Speaker 1: felt nothing, and I kept saying to myself, but why

428
00:22:49,647 --> 00:22:52,007
Speaker 1: are you continuing to take it? Then, like, if you're

429
00:22:52,047 --> 00:22:55,087
Speaker 1: not feeling anything anymore and it's not giving you anything,

430
00:22:55,727 --> 00:22:59,207
Speaker 1: why are you taking it? And I think I just

431
00:22:59,287 --> 00:23:01,127
Speaker 1: kept living in hope that it would give me some

432
00:23:01,167 --> 00:23:03,767
Speaker 1: sort of high. And the other thing was that I

433
00:23:03,847 --> 00:23:07,647
Speaker 1: didn't want to. I just didn't know how to really

434
00:23:07,687 --> 00:23:09,487
Speaker 1: come off it, because I knew on the day I

435
00:23:09,487 --> 00:23:13,007
Speaker 1: didn't have Kitty, I was taking that usual amount the

436
00:23:13,087 --> 00:23:16,287
Speaker 1: days I had Kitty, when I when I would take

437
00:23:16,407 --> 00:23:18,327
Speaker 1: like half a pill here and there, it was just

438
00:23:18,407 --> 00:23:22,167
Speaker 1: trying desperately to level me out. And those that feeling

439
00:23:22,927 --> 00:23:26,647
Speaker 1: was so awful that I just didn't want to experience that.

440
00:23:26,767 --> 00:23:28,887
Speaker 1: Either I don't know, I just keep going back to

441
00:23:28,967 --> 00:23:31,607
Speaker 1: this denial of like I don't even know what was

442
00:23:31,647 --> 00:23:34,567
Speaker 1: going on with me there, but it really genuinely was

443
00:23:34,567 --> 00:23:37,807
Speaker 1: hardly having an effect at all. So when you ask

444
00:23:38,007 --> 00:23:40,207
Speaker 1: how difficult is it to cover all of that up,

445
00:23:40,407 --> 00:23:46,087
Speaker 1: that part isn't wasn't even super high functioning that you know,

446
00:23:46,367 --> 00:23:49,607
Speaker 1: It's just not even it's pointless even continuing.

447
00:23:49,887 --> 00:23:53,847
Speaker 5: So the next day that was interesting because then when

448
00:23:54,047 --> 00:23:58,167
Speaker 5: when things did transfire, all these secrecy like elements would

449
00:23:58,167 --> 00:24:00,007
Speaker 5: come out so and it would all make sense. It'd

450
00:24:00,007 --> 00:24:02,767
Speaker 5: be like, oh, so is that why every time we'd

451
00:24:02,847 --> 00:24:05,287
Speaker 5: go out you were always adamant that your handbag, like

452
00:24:05,327 --> 00:24:07,887
Speaker 5: no one could touch your handbag or Yeah, you'd always

453
00:24:07,927 --> 00:24:10,607
Speaker 5: go to the bathroom every time the food was put down.

454
00:24:10,647 --> 00:24:12,047
Speaker 5: And I was always perplexed, like.

455
00:24:13,287 --> 00:24:18,967
Speaker 2: Reverse Bolima, because I was bullimic when I was in

456
00:24:18,967 --> 00:24:21,807
Speaker 2: my early twenties and I'm thinking about all that strategized

457
00:24:21,807 --> 00:24:23,727
Speaker 2: and be like, Okay, so where will I be, where's

458
00:24:23,727 --> 00:24:25,527
Speaker 2: the bathroom, who's going to be in there? What can

459
00:24:25,567 --> 00:24:28,047
Speaker 2: I do? I need to do like all the steps

460
00:24:28,047 --> 00:24:30,527
Speaker 2: that you need to do to cover it up. And

461
00:24:31,207 --> 00:24:33,287
Speaker 2: it's like no one would have guessed when you go

462
00:24:33,327 --> 00:24:36,007
Speaker 2: to the bathroom always before the food comes, because you've.

463
00:24:35,887 --> 00:24:38,087
Speaker 1: Got to have it. If I've done it after, people

464
00:24:38,167 --> 00:24:41,247
Speaker 1: might have gone hang on a second. And that's the thing.

465
00:24:41,247 --> 00:24:44,407
Speaker 1: If anyone gets in the way of your plan. Yes,

466
00:24:44,567 --> 00:24:50,087
Speaker 1: like the yeah, just ruin my whole night, Like you know, it's.

467
00:24:49,927 --> 00:24:53,687
Speaker 2: I still have anxiety dreams about having binged and being

468
00:24:53,767 --> 00:24:56,847
Speaker 2: not able to throw up. I still have those anxiety

469
00:24:56,927 --> 00:25:01,807
Speaker 2: dreams now because it's such a it's so ingrained. Yeah

470
00:25:01,887 --> 00:25:04,687
Speaker 2: you had Blima, Yeah, and it's it's well, it's like

471
00:25:04,727 --> 00:25:08,287
Speaker 2: any it's like an addictions and it's having to learn

472
00:25:08,407 --> 00:25:11,887
Speaker 2: and yeah, having to learn what it's about because it's

473
00:25:11,967 --> 00:25:14,487
Speaker 2: not about the food or the alcohol or the pills

474
00:25:14,527 --> 00:25:19,087
Speaker 2: or whatever, it's about why you're using it. What's interesting

475
00:25:19,127 --> 00:25:23,567
Speaker 2: to me is reading your book and the conversations is

476
00:25:23,607 --> 00:25:26,527
Speaker 2: that no one had any idea, like no, like it

477
00:25:26,567 --> 00:25:29,207
Speaker 2: was the last thing. And I'm interested in what that

478
00:25:29,447 --> 00:25:34,087
Speaker 2: says about you and what everyone thinks about you. And

479
00:25:34,127 --> 00:25:38,287
Speaker 2: it made me think that everyone must think that you're

480
00:25:38,447 --> 00:25:45,367
Speaker 2: very dependable, responsible, grounded, like all of those things that

481
00:25:45,927 --> 00:25:48,767
Speaker 2: you wouldn't connect with addiction.

482
00:25:49,087 --> 00:25:54,847
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the main reason is that because I

483
00:25:54,967 --> 00:25:59,407
Speaker 1: don't do any kind of party drugs and really never have,

484
00:25:59,647 --> 00:26:03,807
Speaker 1: and I think I'm probably one of the only people

485
00:26:04,527 --> 00:26:06,367
Speaker 1: and I'm not even just talking about the entertainment or

486
00:26:07,647 --> 00:26:11,247
Speaker 1: I'm talking just in Sydney, these eastern suburbs for a start.

487
00:26:11,727 --> 00:26:15,567
Speaker 1: I reckon I'm one of the very rare people who

488
00:26:15,647 --> 00:26:17,207
Speaker 1: have never even tried coke.

489
00:26:17,407 --> 00:26:19,807
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh I have tried it. But I feel that

490
00:26:19,847 --> 00:26:23,327
Speaker 2: way too, Like you can swim in that circle and

491
00:26:23,367 --> 00:26:26,447
Speaker 2: it's like you realize you're the only one left at

492
00:26:26,447 --> 00:26:28,647
Speaker 2: the table when everybody else has gone to the bathroom.

493
00:26:28,727 --> 00:26:33,847
Speaker 1: Yeah, really everybody there, I know, I know, And so

494
00:26:33,927 --> 00:26:37,207
Speaker 1: I think everyone always put me in that basket of oh,

495
00:26:37,247 --> 00:26:40,047
Speaker 1: she just doesn't do drugs at all, And so I

496
00:26:40,087 --> 00:26:45,127
Speaker 1: think that was if anyone even had a minuscule thought

497
00:26:45,167 --> 00:26:47,887
Speaker 1: of that, they'd be like, oh, no, she would never

498
00:26:47,967 --> 00:26:50,927
Speaker 1: be doing that because she doesn't do This is also.

499
00:26:51,447 --> 00:26:55,407
Speaker 2: Part of it that people don't think of prescription medication

500
00:26:55,487 --> 00:26:59,647
Speaker 2: as being addictive or something that people get addicted to, Like.

501
00:27:00,007 --> 00:27:03,167
Speaker 1: I think, I know that. I was so confused about

502
00:27:03,207 --> 00:27:06,127
Speaker 1: it when I heard Matthew Perry had gotten addicted to painkillers.

503
00:27:06,127 --> 00:27:09,487
Speaker 1: I remember that. I remember thinking, who gets addicted to

504
00:27:09,567 --> 00:27:12,967
Speaker 1: pain killers? But I just thought they were by that too. Yeah,

505
00:27:13,167 --> 00:27:16,687
Speaker 1: I think why hell? You know, it was so bad.

506
00:27:16,687 --> 00:27:19,327
Speaker 2: It was also hearing that you take sleeping pills. It's

507
00:27:19,327 --> 00:27:21,847
Speaker 2: like what everyone always asks you is how do you

508
00:27:21,847 --> 00:27:24,407
Speaker 2: get up in the morning so early be so tired?

509
00:27:24,447 --> 00:27:27,807
Speaker 2: It's like, why would you be taking sleeping pills?

510
00:27:28,327 --> 00:27:30,967
Speaker 1: Good question, Yeah, if you.

511
00:27:30,927 --> 00:27:35,367
Speaker 2: Would be addicted to anything. Yeah, And probably that's why

512
00:27:35,367 --> 00:27:37,447
Speaker 2: the people around you didn't pick it either, because it's

513
00:27:37,527 --> 00:27:39,447
Speaker 2: quite easy to you know, we can all pick the

514
00:27:39,447 --> 00:27:42,527
Speaker 2: signs of someone who's who's on appers and who's high.

515
00:27:42,607 --> 00:27:45,927
Speaker 2: But when someone's just a bit tired or a bit

516
00:27:46,087 --> 00:27:48,127
Speaker 2: and as you say, when you're just taking it to

517
00:27:48,167 --> 00:27:48,687
Speaker 2: be normal.

518
00:27:48,927 --> 00:27:51,607
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that was what I was perplexed by

519
00:27:51,887 --> 00:27:55,727
Speaker 5: that day when they're all, you know, unraveled, because I

520
00:27:55,767 --> 00:27:57,167
Speaker 5: remember sitting and going.

521
00:27:59,847 --> 00:28:02,367
Speaker 1: I can I just say when I went into rehab,

522
00:28:02,767 --> 00:28:06,567
Speaker 1: I was the only person that was addicted to sleep.

523
00:28:06,767 --> 00:28:10,727
Speaker 1: Everyone went because it's ambient over there, and they're like ambient.

524
00:28:10,607 --> 00:28:13,127
Speaker 2: Like why people get addicted to stimulants?

525
00:28:13,367 --> 00:28:17,207
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. It was like I mean when I

526
00:28:17,247 --> 00:28:20,207
Speaker 1: told them in rehab that it was what I was taking.

527
00:28:20,287 --> 00:28:24,007
Speaker 1: So they call it Thailand Ole three over there, and

528
00:28:24,127 --> 00:28:29,407
Speaker 1: obviously people are in there mostly for meth fentanyl, alcohol.

529
00:28:29,647 --> 00:28:32,527
Speaker 1: They're like the three big ones. And I was the

530
00:28:32,527 --> 00:28:36,727
Speaker 1: only one in there for Thailand. They literally looked at

531
00:28:36,807 --> 00:28:40,567
Speaker 1: me like, Assie, white girl, she's addicted to Thailand. Oh,

532
00:28:40,607 --> 00:28:44,247
Speaker 1: this is so lame. It's so suburban, it's so subban.

533
00:28:44,447 --> 00:28:47,207
Speaker 2: That's often what people say about the things that women

534
00:28:47,247 --> 00:28:51,047
Speaker 2: get addicted to is because women have caring responsibilities with it.

535
00:28:51,127 --> 00:28:54,847
Speaker 2: It's for children or partners or parents, whatever. They're more

536
00:28:54,967 --> 00:28:57,287
Speaker 2: likely to get addicted to things that enable them to function,

537
00:28:57,367 --> 00:29:01,207
Speaker 2: so things like gambling, things like food, things like prescription medications.

538
00:29:01,247 --> 00:29:04,607
Speaker 1: It's something you can still function, but it's not you know,

539
00:29:04,687 --> 00:29:07,247
Speaker 1: you don't feel like you're going off the rails hardcore

540
00:29:07,487 --> 00:29:12,127
Speaker 1: with your addiction, which is really, really is not the case.

541
00:29:12,487 --> 00:29:15,287
Speaker 1: And I think that's my point in the book. When

542
00:29:15,287 --> 00:29:17,487
Speaker 1: I first got in there, I felt that way too.

543
00:29:17,567 --> 00:29:21,247
Speaker 1: It's like, hang on, I've got the least scary addiction

544
00:29:21,327 --> 00:29:23,767
Speaker 1: in here, and everyone's looking at me like really, like

545
00:29:23,887 --> 00:29:29,687
Speaker 1: you're in rehab for that. But yeah, absolutely, the problem

546
00:29:29,807 --> 00:29:32,207
Speaker 1: I have is the same as the person next to me.

547
00:29:32,287 --> 00:29:35,607
Speaker 1: He's doing Heroin. We both have the same problem, which

548
00:29:35,647 --> 00:29:39,447
Speaker 1: is we're using that as a way to escape something else,

549
00:29:39,647 --> 00:29:41,327
Speaker 1: and we need to address what that is.

550
00:29:41,847 --> 00:29:44,247
Speaker 2: You're sitting here now talking very calmly about it.

551
00:29:45,767 --> 00:29:46,327
Speaker 1: What was that.

552
00:29:46,247 --> 00:29:48,207
Speaker 2: Phone call like from your point of view, Jim, when

553
00:29:48,247 --> 00:29:50,367
Speaker 2: she called you, You're in the car driving out to

554
00:29:50,447 --> 00:29:52,647
Speaker 2: the country. Yeah, on a lovely sunday.

555
00:29:52,767 --> 00:29:53,527
Speaker 1: Yes, I was.

556
00:29:53,887 --> 00:29:59,527
Speaker 5: And so she sounded that quite hysterical and was almost hyperventilating.

557
00:30:00,127 --> 00:30:02,447
Speaker 5: So I knew it was bad, whatever it was, And

558
00:30:02,487 --> 00:30:05,047
Speaker 5: I pulled over because I thought I can't be driving,

559
00:30:05,167 --> 00:30:07,527
Speaker 5: like I kind of braced myself. I could tell the

560
00:30:07,527 --> 00:30:12,287
Speaker 5: severity very quickly, and maybe I did. Actually, yeah, I

561
00:30:12,287 --> 00:30:14,767
Speaker 5: thought something had happened, yeah to someone that we know.

562
00:30:15,327 --> 00:30:18,487
Speaker 5: And then she managed to get out the words, because

563
00:30:18,527 --> 00:30:20,487
Speaker 5: I was saying, just tell me whatever it is to

564
00:30:20,567 --> 00:30:23,047
Speaker 5: say it, just say it. And she managed to kind

565
00:30:23,047 --> 00:30:25,407
Speaker 5: of spit out the words in between the sobs of

566
00:30:25,567 --> 00:30:28,527
Speaker 5: I've done something really stupid. That's all she kept saying.

567
00:30:28,567 --> 00:30:33,087
Speaker 5: And I still was like, that mean, I said what,

568
00:30:33,927 --> 00:30:36,887
Speaker 5: And then she eventually got out the words of I've

569
00:30:36,927 --> 00:30:40,007
Speaker 5: been taking pills. And that's all she said to me

570
00:30:40,247 --> 00:30:43,767
Speaker 5: was I've been taking pills. And immediately everything was like

571
00:30:44,087 --> 00:30:45,367
Speaker 5: the penny dropped for me.

572
00:30:45,687 --> 00:30:47,807
Speaker 2: I was like, so you didn't think she meant I've

573
00:30:47,807 --> 00:30:51,127
Speaker 2: been taking pills this morning or last night. You knew straightaway.

574
00:30:51,127 --> 00:30:53,647
Speaker 5: I figured it was like you know that domino effect.

575
00:30:53,687 --> 00:30:56,407
Speaker 5: I just figured the whole sequence of everything out and

576
00:30:56,447 --> 00:30:58,487
Speaker 5: it all made sense. And then I think he said,

577
00:30:58,567 --> 00:31:02,487
Speaker 5: and the person I was getting them from has just

578
00:31:02,567 --> 00:31:04,927
Speaker 5: been busted, and I don't know what to do. And

579
00:31:04,967 --> 00:31:08,407
Speaker 5: I've never ever heard Jack in that state before, and

580
00:31:08,487 --> 00:31:13,047
Speaker 5: so all I said was, I said, just just sit tight,

581
00:31:13,127 --> 00:31:15,447
Speaker 5: I'll be there. I'll be there in two hours. And

582
00:31:15,487 --> 00:31:18,207
Speaker 5: I turned around and I drove straight back.

583
00:31:18,287 --> 00:31:19,287
Speaker 2: Where are you going south?

584
00:31:20,087 --> 00:31:22,407
Speaker 5: I was going down to the Southern Highlands south of Sydney,

585
00:31:22,447 --> 00:31:24,487
Speaker 5: So I was pretty much close to where I was going,

586
00:31:24,487 --> 00:31:25,367
Speaker 5: and so I turned around and.

587
00:31:25,407 --> 00:31:26,527
Speaker 2: Drove the Bane of Plans.

588
00:31:26,727 --> 00:31:28,167
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but I.

589
00:31:28,127 --> 00:31:30,767
Speaker 5: Didn't know what the pills were or how many she

590
00:31:30,887 --> 00:31:33,327
Speaker 5: was taking. I didn't know any of that. But I

591
00:31:33,647 --> 00:31:36,007
Speaker 5: just had a gut feeling that it wasn't going to

592
00:31:36,047 --> 00:31:38,727
Speaker 5: be like I'm taking one pill here and there. I

593
00:31:39,127 --> 00:31:42,087
Speaker 5: just had this innate feeling that it was quite severe.

594
00:31:42,687 --> 00:31:44,727
Speaker 5: And so, you know, what did you do in the

595
00:31:44,727 --> 00:31:45,487
Speaker 5: car on the way home?

596
00:31:45,607 --> 00:31:46,767
Speaker 2: I mean, on the way back to Jack.

597
00:31:47,047 --> 00:31:48,727
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I've never asked that.

598
00:31:48,887 --> 00:31:51,887
Speaker 5: Actually, well, no, you do know I called That's what

599
00:31:51,927 --> 00:31:52,167
Speaker 5: I know.

600
00:31:52,287 --> 00:31:56,047
Speaker 1: But I didn't know know that. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah,

601
00:31:56,327 --> 00:31:58,007
Speaker 1: so I actually didn't do it. Did it take you

602
00:31:58,087 --> 00:32:01,047
Speaker 1: before you decided to call Betty?

603
00:32:02,047 --> 00:32:02,727
Speaker 5: About an hour?

604
00:32:03,287 --> 00:32:05,407
Speaker 2: Some people are good in a crisis. I'm really good

605
00:32:05,447 --> 00:32:07,287
Speaker 2: in a crisis, as long as the crisis isn't happening

606
00:32:07,367 --> 00:32:07,567
Speaker 2: to me.

607
00:32:07,927 --> 00:32:08,287
Speaker 1: Yeah.

608
00:32:08,327 --> 00:32:11,167
Speaker 2: It really focused my thoughts. Maybe I know exactly what

609
00:32:11,247 --> 00:32:11,527
Speaker 2: to do.

610
00:32:11,727 --> 00:32:14,367
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm a very ill po Yeah, I've always been

611
00:32:14,487 --> 00:32:17,047
Speaker 5: like that. I don't know why, but I have that too,

612
00:32:17,327 --> 00:32:19,967
Speaker 5: And so I sat with it, and I just sat

613
00:32:20,007 --> 00:32:22,407
Speaker 5: with my own thoughts for the first hour. Of driving,

614
00:32:22,487 --> 00:32:23,967
Speaker 5: and I think I was also trying to piece some

615
00:32:24,087 --> 00:32:26,847
Speaker 5: things together in my head. I was like, oh, she

616
00:32:27,167 --> 00:32:29,687
Speaker 5: you know, she's probably been doing it. I was trying to,

617
00:32:29,887 --> 00:32:32,847
Speaker 5: you know, figure out the timeline, I guess, and then

618
00:32:33,247 --> 00:32:36,967
Speaker 5: I started to think, Okay, let's prepare for all situations here,

619
00:32:37,007 --> 00:32:40,847
Speaker 5: because that's my nature. I'm a planner. And so I thought,

620
00:32:40,967 --> 00:32:43,567
Speaker 5: if it is an addiction, and if it has been

621
00:32:43,607 --> 00:32:46,047
Speaker 5: going on for a while, then the fact that she's

622
00:32:46,167 --> 00:32:48,767
Speaker 5: told me, I need to act quickly. Like I knew

623
00:32:48,807 --> 00:32:51,207
Speaker 5: there were certain things and I've had some experience. I've

624
00:32:51,247 --> 00:32:54,927
Speaker 5: been around other people that have had addiction and successfully

625
00:32:55,007 --> 00:32:57,527
Speaker 5: overcome them, and so I knew that if it was that,

626
00:32:57,687 --> 00:33:00,087
Speaker 5: I needed to be prepared and I need to act immediately.

627
00:33:00,727 --> 00:33:02,927
Speaker 5: So I kind of started thinking, well, if it's that,

628
00:33:03,207 --> 00:33:05,127
Speaker 5: this is what we'll do. And if it's not that,

629
00:33:05,407 --> 00:33:07,087
Speaker 5: you know, this is what we'll do. And I started

630
00:33:07,127 --> 00:33:10,847
Speaker 5: putting scenarios in my head to prepare for the worst

631
00:33:10,927 --> 00:33:13,487
Speaker 5: case scenario, which is what I did think it was.

632
00:33:14,167 --> 00:33:16,407
Speaker 5: I thought, well, I'm going to find out if I

633
00:33:16,447 --> 00:33:19,527
Speaker 5: can even get her in somewhere. And I also never

634
00:33:19,647 --> 00:33:23,087
Speaker 5: contemplated it being in Australia for a number of reasons.

635
00:33:24,247 --> 00:33:26,327
Speaker 1: First of all, I just.

636
00:33:26,447 --> 00:33:28,847
Speaker 5: Thought that it would be a media circus and if

637
00:33:28,927 --> 00:33:32,967
Speaker 5: she was genuinely unwell, as her friend, selfishly, I wanted

638
00:33:33,007 --> 00:33:35,207
Speaker 5: her to get better, and so I thought if it's

639
00:33:35,247 --> 00:33:38,127
Speaker 5: in Australia, she won't be able to do that, just

640
00:33:38,167 --> 00:33:40,327
Speaker 5: because the chances are too high that it'll get out.

641
00:33:41,247 --> 00:33:44,007
Speaker 5: And I also thought she'd probably if it did get out,

642
00:33:44,167 --> 00:33:46,247
Speaker 5: then she'd probably use it as an excuse to say

643
00:33:46,287 --> 00:33:48,567
Speaker 5: I can't stay here anymore. And so I wanted to

644
00:33:48,647 --> 00:33:51,767
Speaker 5: eliminate all options of her being able to not get

645
00:33:51,807 --> 00:33:55,647
Speaker 5: successful treatment. I did have friends who had gone to

646
00:33:55,727 --> 00:33:58,007
Speaker 5: Betty Ford. I lived in America for quite a long time,

647
00:33:58,207 --> 00:34:01,247
Speaker 5: and so I knew that their program was a legitimate

648
00:34:01,327 --> 00:34:04,687
Speaker 5: program and that I'd seen other people recover very successfully.

649
00:34:05,207 --> 00:34:07,967
Speaker 2: When I heard the audio of you sang it on

650
00:34:08,047 --> 00:34:11,647
Speaker 2: the show about Betty Ford, I was like, Betty fool,

651
00:34:12,847 --> 00:34:15,887
Speaker 2: that's so retro. Yeah, I didn't even know it was

652
00:34:16,007 --> 00:34:17,487
Speaker 2: kind of still around.

653
00:34:17,727 --> 00:34:17,927
Speaker 5: Yeah.

654
00:34:18,327 --> 00:34:20,967
Speaker 4: The Betty Ford Center was founded in nineteen eighty two

655
00:34:21,167 --> 00:34:24,967
Speaker 4: by former First Lady Betty Ford. After admissions, you'll be

656
00:34:25,247 --> 00:34:27,847
Speaker 4: escorted to the medical and detoxification unit.

657
00:34:28,047 --> 00:34:30,607
Speaker 1: In the medical unit, you'll be evaluated by our team

658
00:34:30,647 --> 00:34:33,327
Speaker 1: of positions, and it will be determined when it's appropriate

659
00:34:33,407 --> 00:34:35,527
Speaker 1: to move you over to one of the residential halls.

660
00:34:36,127 --> 00:34:38,527
Speaker 4: Our medical staff is here twenty four to seven to

661
00:34:38,607 --> 00:34:40,127
Speaker 4: make you as comfortable as possible.

662
00:34:40,847 --> 00:34:43,927
Speaker 2: Like, surely there are more modern ones, more fancy ones,

663
00:34:44,047 --> 00:34:48,007
Speaker 2: more upgraded worries, And why did you choose that?

664
00:34:48,807 --> 00:34:52,727
Speaker 5: Because I had experience with other people going there, and

665
00:34:52,847 --> 00:34:55,207
Speaker 5: I knew from the other people that had gone there

666
00:34:55,687 --> 00:34:58,567
Speaker 5: that it wasn't a fancy one and that it wasn't

667
00:34:58,927 --> 00:35:00,887
Speaker 5: a day spa situation.

668
00:35:01,527 --> 00:35:02,487
Speaker 1: It was doing the work.

669
00:35:02,807 --> 00:35:05,567
Speaker 5: It was a real program, and so I think it

670
00:35:05,727 --> 00:35:07,967
Speaker 5: was just because I knew it, I thought, well, that's

671
00:35:08,047 --> 00:35:11,127
Speaker 5: my default. I'm just going to go there. And so

672
00:35:11,287 --> 00:35:14,367
Speaker 5: I called them when I was about thirty minutes out

673
00:35:14,527 --> 00:35:17,607
Speaker 5: from arriving at Jack's, and I said to them, I

674
00:35:17,727 --> 00:35:19,847
Speaker 5: have a friend who's just admitted this to me. I

675
00:35:19,927 --> 00:35:22,247
Speaker 5: don't know the severity of the situation, but I wanted

676
00:35:22,287 --> 00:35:24,007
Speaker 5: to know, do you have any spots available? And I

677
00:35:24,047 --> 00:35:25,967
Speaker 5: also know it's quite hard to get spots in there,

678
00:35:26,887 --> 00:35:28,767
Speaker 5: just because they have a wait list and you know,

679
00:35:29,087 --> 00:35:32,927
Speaker 5: And the lady said to me, we have one spot available,

680
00:35:33,007 --> 00:35:34,927
Speaker 5: and it's available from this Sunday, and I said I'll

681
00:35:34,967 --> 00:35:35,207
Speaker 5: take it.

682
00:35:35,567 --> 00:35:37,647
Speaker 2: And so so it was a week out.

683
00:35:38,087 --> 00:35:40,967
Speaker 5: It was a week out, yeah, and I said I'll

684
00:35:41,007 --> 00:35:43,127
Speaker 5: take it. And I said, I'll confirm. I'll call you

685
00:35:43,247 --> 00:35:45,247
Speaker 5: back and confirm it in a couple of hours.

686
00:35:45,487 --> 00:35:46,407
Speaker 1: He's all my details.

687
00:35:46,687 --> 00:35:47,567
Speaker 2: How much does it cost?

688
00:35:48,967 --> 00:35:52,847
Speaker 1: I can't it's about like thirty eight forty yeah, for

689
00:35:53,047 --> 00:35:53,767
Speaker 1: the month.

690
00:35:53,687 --> 00:35:54,167
Speaker 5: For the month.

691
00:35:54,327 --> 00:35:57,447
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you got to Jack's house. Yeah, what did

692
00:35:57,527 --> 00:35:59,287
Speaker 2: you discover? What state was she in?

693
00:35:59,967 --> 00:36:01,407
Speaker 1: She was not in a great state.

694
00:36:01,847 --> 00:36:02,807
Speaker 2: I never driving.

695
00:36:02,927 --> 00:36:04,727
Speaker 1: Not your best day, Yeah, definitely not.

696
00:36:05,247 --> 00:36:07,447
Speaker 5: I never really like reliving it because every time we

697
00:36:07,567 --> 00:36:08,727
Speaker 5: do it makes it really upset.

698
00:36:08,767 --> 00:36:10,527
Speaker 1: But I'll do my best.

699
00:36:12,007 --> 00:36:14,887
Speaker 5: I think it was just very It just broke my

700
00:36:15,047 --> 00:36:18,367
Speaker 5: heart to see her like that. To see anyone like

701
00:36:18,487 --> 00:36:22,967
Speaker 5: that is very confronting because she just was so lost

702
00:36:23,127 --> 00:36:28,287
Speaker 5: and so empty and broken. And I think because she

703
00:36:28,487 --> 00:36:31,727
Speaker 5: finally said it, she was letting all the emotion out,

704
00:36:32,087 --> 00:36:36,327
Speaker 5: I imagine, and so she was very It was like

705
00:36:37,687 --> 00:36:41,807
Speaker 5: she was almost like a child in that moment, Like

706
00:36:41,927 --> 00:36:44,047
Speaker 5: it felt like she was a child that was desperate

707
00:36:44,207 --> 00:36:47,927
Speaker 5: to be rescued and she was, you know, struggling to breathe.

708
00:36:48,047 --> 00:36:50,367
Speaker 5: We had to do a few breathing exercises, and she

709
00:36:50,487 --> 00:36:53,807
Speaker 5: was having panic, like panic attacks and things. So but

710
00:36:54,527 --> 00:36:57,367
Speaker 5: it was also her you know, rock bottom moment, so

711
00:36:57,527 --> 00:37:01,087
Speaker 5: to speak, because had she not got the earlier phone call,

712
00:37:01,167 --> 00:37:03,647
Speaker 5: we wouldn't have been in that position. And so I

713
00:37:03,847 --> 00:37:06,207
Speaker 5: was able to get pretty much everything out of her

714
00:37:06,367 --> 00:37:08,207
Speaker 5: straight away, Like you didn't hold it a lot. I

715
00:37:08,247 --> 00:37:09,847
Speaker 5: think she was like, well, it's done now, so I

716
00:37:09,927 --> 00:37:12,127
Speaker 5: may as well admit to everything. And so that's when

717
00:37:12,167 --> 00:37:14,287
Speaker 5: I said, what are the pills? How often are you

718
00:37:14,447 --> 00:37:17,687
Speaker 5: taking them? And I was very shocked by the amount

719
00:37:18,247 --> 00:37:20,927
Speaker 5: because in my head, I'm thinking that's close to forty

720
00:37:21,007 --> 00:37:24,247
Speaker 5: pills a day in total that you're taking. And so

721
00:37:24,527 --> 00:37:27,127
Speaker 5: but i'd like to think I don't know if this

722
00:37:27,367 --> 00:37:28,967
Speaker 5: was the case, but I'd like to think I never

723
00:37:29,127 --> 00:37:32,047
Speaker 5: once judged. I never once. All I did was I

724
00:37:32,127 --> 00:37:35,647
Speaker 5: wanted her to feel I wanted her to feel my compassion,

725
00:37:35,927 --> 00:37:38,087
Speaker 5: and I wanted her to feel nurtured, and I wanted

726
00:37:38,087 --> 00:37:41,807
Speaker 5: her to feel safe. And that was the primary thing

727
00:37:41,927 --> 00:37:43,607
Speaker 5: for me, was to make her know she was in

728
00:37:43,687 --> 00:37:45,527
Speaker 5: a safe space and that I was going to make

729
00:37:45,567 --> 00:37:49,447
Speaker 5: sure she was okay. And I think because hopefully she

730
00:37:49,607 --> 00:37:53,687
Speaker 5: felt that she was able to really let everything out.

731
00:37:54,447 --> 00:37:57,607
Speaker 2: Yeahhack, the two hours between when you call jem and

732
00:37:57,727 --> 00:37:59,887
Speaker 2: when she arrived at your house, what were they like

733
00:38:00,007 --> 00:38:01,887
Speaker 2: for you? What did you do in those two hours?

734
00:38:02,007 --> 00:38:03,527
Speaker 1: I feel like that was a bit of a blur,

735
00:38:03,847 --> 00:38:10,127
Speaker 1: to be honest. I think it was part shock, part relief, terrified.

736
00:38:10,767 --> 00:38:13,007
Speaker 1: I think it was all those three things. You know,

737
00:38:13,087 --> 00:38:16,327
Speaker 1: when you let the steam out finally of the pressure cooker,

738
00:38:16,407 --> 00:38:20,807
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, okay, it's out there. So there

739
00:38:20,887 --> 00:38:23,567
Speaker 1: was that, and that was There was relief in that

740
00:38:23,807 --> 00:38:26,967
Speaker 1: for sure, but it was also what does this mean? Now?

741
00:38:27,927 --> 00:38:31,487
Speaker 1: What does this mean for me? Where do I What

742
00:38:31,607 --> 00:38:33,367
Speaker 1: is Jema going to say? What am I gonna have

743
00:38:33,407 --> 00:38:36,087
Speaker 1: to do? I actually didn't think she'd say rehab, So

744
00:38:36,167 --> 00:38:38,807
Speaker 1: I don't know why I didn't think that, but I thought, oh, no,

745
00:38:38,887 --> 00:38:40,967
Speaker 1: we're fine. I've got enough to taper off. We're all good.

746
00:38:43,407 --> 00:38:46,007
Speaker 2: After the short break, Gemma makes a plan in the

747
00:38:46,047 --> 00:38:49,527
Speaker 2: way that only best friends can, and Jackie has to

748
00:38:49,567 --> 00:38:52,407
Speaker 2: share the truth with her ex husband Lee and her

749
00:38:52,447 --> 00:38:55,727
Speaker 2: work husband Kyle. Stay with us, we'll be right back.

750
00:38:58,807 --> 00:39:00,927
Speaker 2: So your plan, because you had about two weeks of

751
00:39:01,007 --> 00:39:04,167
Speaker 2: stash to taper off, and you knew it was going

752
00:39:04,207 --> 00:39:06,767
Speaker 2: to be tricky. Yeah, but your hand had been forced.

753
00:39:06,847 --> 00:39:07,847
Speaker 2: So that was your plan.

754
00:39:08,007 --> 00:39:08,647
Speaker 1: That was my plan.

755
00:39:08,927 --> 00:39:09,127
Speaker 3: Yeap.

756
00:39:10,247 --> 00:39:11,367
Speaker 2: What did Jim think of that plan?

757
00:39:11,607 --> 00:39:16,447
Speaker 1: Terrible? Because she said to me rightly, so no, no, no,

758
00:39:16,767 --> 00:39:19,687
Speaker 1: that won't work. And I said, yeah, it will, I said,

759
00:39:19,727 --> 00:39:22,567
Speaker 1: because I have no one to get this stuff off,

760
00:39:22,647 --> 00:39:24,887
Speaker 1: so I have no choice now, and she goes, no,

761
00:39:25,287 --> 00:39:28,007
Speaker 1: you will find a way to get it. And I

762
00:39:28,167 --> 00:39:31,447
Speaker 1: know that you will unless you fix the actual.

763
00:39:31,127 --> 00:39:33,727
Speaker 2: Problem or replace it with someone that's something else. That's right, Yes,

764
00:39:33,967 --> 00:39:36,487
Speaker 2: And I would have because you understood addiction, Yeah, as you.

765
00:39:36,687 --> 00:39:37,127
Speaker 1: I didn't.

766
00:39:37,847 --> 00:39:39,687
Speaker 2: Did you think of yourself as an addict yet or that?

767
00:39:40,527 --> 00:39:40,687
Speaker 3: Yeah?

768
00:39:40,767 --> 00:39:43,687
Speaker 1: No, I knew obviously I was an addict. What did you? Oh?

769
00:39:44,407 --> 00:39:46,767
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't think you did based on that.

770
00:39:46,887 --> 00:39:50,247
Speaker 1: Sorry, yeah, I didn't. I knew I was an addict,

771
00:39:50,287 --> 00:39:53,287
Speaker 1: but I didn't understand what an addict was, right. So

772
00:39:53,727 --> 00:39:56,007
Speaker 1: I when I say I didn't understand what an addict was,

773
00:39:56,327 --> 00:39:59,847
Speaker 1: I just meant I had become addicted to something, but

774
00:39:59,967 --> 00:40:04,087
Speaker 1: I could easily just taper off and stop. And I

775
00:40:04,207 --> 00:40:07,607
Speaker 1: didn't understand that addiction is so much more than that.

776
00:40:08,087 --> 00:40:11,527
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, like in some people, I'm addicted to coffee

777
00:40:11,567 --> 00:40:14,007
Speaker 2: and I'm addicted to work. It's like it's a different thing.

778
00:40:14,367 --> 00:40:15,527
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

779
00:40:15,767 --> 00:40:18,607
Speaker 2: Yeah, addicts can be really hard to reason with. And

780
00:40:19,287 --> 00:40:22,647
Speaker 2: something that we haven't really touched on is the duality

781
00:40:22,687 --> 00:40:31,967
Speaker 2: of your friendship between friends but also your Jack's manager, agent, manager, both. Yeah, personally, yeah,

782
00:40:32,087 --> 00:40:34,967
Speaker 2: all of it. Yeah, yeah, which is kind of means

783
00:40:35,047 --> 00:40:36,647
Speaker 2: Jack's the boss of you and kind of means you're

784
00:40:36,647 --> 00:40:42,967
Speaker 2: the boss of Jack. Yes, How did you navigate that

785
00:40:43,447 --> 00:40:45,447
Speaker 2: in the conversations that you had to have on that

786
00:40:45,567 --> 00:40:47,927
Speaker 2: day when you were saying you're going to rehab and

787
00:40:48,047 --> 00:40:49,727
Speaker 2: Jack's like, no, not, I don't need to.

788
00:40:51,687 --> 00:40:53,807
Speaker 5: Well, it was always the lens of a friend, and

789
00:40:53,967 --> 00:40:56,607
Speaker 5: we always put our friendship first. Like we've worked together

790
00:40:56,687 --> 00:40:59,807
Speaker 5: for many, many years in different capacities, so that's not

791
00:40:59,967 --> 00:41:03,167
Speaker 5: unusual for us. But our friendship's always come first.

792
00:41:03,207 --> 00:41:05,367
Speaker 2: But a friend can't force another friend to do something.

793
00:41:05,527 --> 00:41:10,687
Speaker 2: Whereas you had everything in your hand, because you obviously

794
00:41:10,807 --> 00:41:14,647
Speaker 2: knew if you have an accident, if you get busted, Yeah,

795
00:41:15,247 --> 00:41:17,527
Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot at stake here apart from

796
00:41:17,967 --> 00:41:19,687
Speaker 2: your actual health and safety.

797
00:41:19,807 --> 00:41:23,127
Speaker 1: Well, I'll just can I because so Gemma had only

798
00:41:23,327 --> 00:41:27,407
Speaker 1: just become my manager, not long into it, like we

799
00:41:27,607 --> 00:41:30,967
Speaker 1: had just decided on that it's a fast art. Yeah,

800
00:41:31,207 --> 00:41:34,247
Speaker 1: wasn't it to talk about throwing her into the deep end.

801
00:41:34,967 --> 00:41:37,967
Speaker 1: But in the past when things like this have come up,

802
00:41:38,047 --> 00:41:42,767
Speaker 1: certainly never anything like what happened then, but little things.

803
00:41:43,407 --> 00:41:49,687
Speaker 1: Gemma is really good in keeping me on I guess advice,

804
00:41:49,927 --> 00:41:54,087
Speaker 1: and I've always taken her advice very seriously, And I

805
00:41:54,167 --> 00:41:57,847
Speaker 1: think it goes back to our friendship. Really started to

806
00:41:58,087 --> 00:42:01,367
Speaker 1: bond tightly when she became EP of the show. So

807
00:42:01,887 --> 00:42:04,087
Speaker 1: she would always say to me, I think it's a

808
00:42:04,127 --> 00:42:06,287
Speaker 1: good idea if you do this, I think this is great.

809
00:42:06,367 --> 00:42:08,567
Speaker 1: I think you know, this will sound really good on air,

810
00:42:08,607 --> 00:42:11,727
Speaker 1: and I know it's uncomfortable, and so I've always really

811
00:42:11,967 --> 00:42:15,727
Speaker 1: valued her advice. And I think that day when you

812
00:42:15,847 --> 00:42:19,127
Speaker 1: said about the rehab, I can't speak for you, but

813
00:42:19,567 --> 00:42:23,207
Speaker 1: I never felt for a second you had any managerial

814
00:42:23,367 --> 00:42:26,327
Speaker 1: hat or career hat on at all at all. Yeah,

815
00:42:26,607 --> 00:42:27,367
Speaker 1: I didn't at all.

816
00:42:27,687 --> 00:42:30,727
Speaker 2: And did you have jack that muscle memory of she

817
00:42:30,887 --> 00:42:31,727
Speaker 2: makes good decisions?

818
00:42:31,767 --> 00:42:35,567
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, because anyone else could have said that to me,

819
00:42:35,727 --> 00:42:38,407
Speaker 1: my mom, Yeah, you know, anyone could have said that

820
00:42:38,607 --> 00:42:40,687
Speaker 1: and I would have dismissed it and gone forget it,

821
00:42:40,847 --> 00:42:45,007
Speaker 1: no way, no how. But with Jemma, I've always known

822
00:42:45,087 --> 00:42:48,287
Speaker 1: that she does actually you know, I really do value

823
00:42:48,327 --> 00:42:51,207
Speaker 1: what she says. And so I might have said I'm

824
00:42:51,247 --> 00:42:53,367
Speaker 1: not going to rehab, that's ridiculous, and I reckon ten

825
00:42:53,407 --> 00:42:57,527
Speaker 1: seconds later, I was like, okay. Then it was very like, yeah, okay,

826
00:42:57,647 --> 00:42:59,287
Speaker 1: I can't. Really it was probably a bit more than

827
00:42:59,367 --> 00:43:01,767
Speaker 1: ten seconds. Yeah, it was, I'll tell you what. It

828
00:43:01,847 --> 00:43:04,007
Speaker 1: went back and forth. So I agreed, and then I

829
00:43:04,127 --> 00:43:06,007
Speaker 1: pushed it back again and I said to wait, I

830
00:43:06,087 --> 00:43:08,127
Speaker 1: don't think this is you know. So there was definite

831
00:43:08,167 --> 00:43:11,647
Speaker 1: resistance for a while. Yeah, but she has a one of.

832
00:43:11,687 --> 00:43:15,327
Speaker 2: The things that surprised me and I found so interesting.

833
00:43:15,407 --> 00:43:17,567
Speaker 2: I mean, everything in this book I found so interesting,

834
00:43:17,647 --> 00:43:21,807
Speaker 2: but the part about where they say at rehab, between

835
00:43:21,927 --> 00:43:25,767
Speaker 2: booking and arriving, you have to keep taking exactly the

836
00:43:25,847 --> 00:43:28,567
Speaker 2: same amount of whatever it is you're addicted to until

837
00:43:28,647 --> 00:43:30,287
Speaker 2: you get there. Can you explain that?

838
00:43:30,447 --> 00:43:35,407
Speaker 5: Jem Sure, so, because in Jack's circumstance, she hadn't called herself.

839
00:43:35,687 --> 00:43:38,287
Speaker 5: They still won't admit someone until the person says, yes,

840
00:43:38,407 --> 00:43:41,567
Speaker 5: I am willing to come, because it's voluntary exactly, And

841
00:43:41,727 --> 00:43:43,807
Speaker 5: so I did all the initial stuff with them, but

842
00:43:43,887 --> 00:43:45,847
Speaker 5: then I did have Jack had to then get on

843
00:43:45,887 --> 00:43:47,607
Speaker 5: the phone with them and confirm that she was willing

844
00:43:47,687 --> 00:43:50,367
Speaker 5: to come and answer all of their questions. And then

845
00:43:50,407 --> 00:43:52,687
Speaker 5: they spoke to me again and they really expressed to

846
00:43:52,807 --> 00:43:56,447
Speaker 5: me that what can commonly occur is with people who

847
00:43:56,527 --> 00:43:59,247
Speaker 5: know they're going into rehab, they can either try and

848
00:44:00,167 --> 00:44:01,327
Speaker 5: really massively.

849
00:44:01,047 --> 00:44:02,367
Speaker 1: Overdose, have a go out.

850
00:44:02,647 --> 00:44:05,727
Speaker 5: They think, well, this is my last time to go hard,

851
00:44:06,287 --> 00:44:09,807
Speaker 5: and that can be extremely dangerous and is also when

852
00:44:09,847 --> 00:44:10,967
Speaker 5: there's often fatalities.

853
00:44:11,327 --> 00:44:14,167
Speaker 2: I was reading about someone recently who died on their

854
00:44:14,207 --> 00:44:17,607
Speaker 2: way to rehab, and I didn't realize it was a celebrity.

855
00:44:17,647 --> 00:44:20,727
Speaker 2: I didn't realize how why that was. I was like,

856
00:44:21,087 --> 00:44:24,167
Speaker 2: surely by the time you've decided to go to rehab. Yeah, yeah,

857
00:44:24,247 --> 00:44:26,127
Speaker 2: but yeah, your book helped me understand.

858
00:44:26,247 --> 00:44:28,167
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that hadn't occurred to me either me or

859
00:44:28,207 --> 00:44:30,167
Speaker 5: so when they said it, I was like, oh, okay,

860
00:44:30,407 --> 00:44:33,367
Speaker 5: they said, so that's a real concern to be aware of.

861
00:44:34,007 --> 00:44:37,527
Speaker 5: And also they'll try and pretend that they're tapering off

862
00:44:37,847 --> 00:44:39,527
Speaker 5: and that they can do it, and then they'll go, see,

863
00:44:39,527 --> 00:44:41,807
Speaker 5: I don't need to go now I've actually now taken

864
00:44:42,087 --> 00:44:45,487
Speaker 5: like less and both options are actually very dangerous. So

865
00:44:46,007 --> 00:44:49,967
Speaker 5: they said it's really important that she takes the same amount,

866
00:44:50,647 --> 00:44:53,687
Speaker 5: and so I had to monitor that for that week,

867
00:44:54,167 --> 00:44:55,407
Speaker 5: which was really strange.

868
00:44:55,407 --> 00:44:58,287
Speaker 2: I'm sure you needed to be very closely supervised and

869
00:44:58,407 --> 00:44:59,727
Speaker 2: not left alone that week.

870
00:45:00,047 --> 00:45:01,447
Speaker 1: Yeah. I stayed with her the whole week.

871
00:45:01,567 --> 00:45:05,487
Speaker 2: Yeah. What about your life, jem, Like, that's a big thing,

872
00:45:05,647 --> 00:45:07,767
Speaker 2: because you were not just on your way to the

873
00:45:08,247 --> 00:45:10,927
Speaker 2: you know, you're going in the way to your kids.

874
00:45:11,487 --> 00:45:15,047
Speaker 2: You have two kids. Were you still married at that point? No,

875
00:45:15,927 --> 00:45:18,687
Speaker 2: so you're a single mum. Yeah, you have two little

876
00:45:18,767 --> 00:45:23,247
Speaker 2: kids and you literally you've got a life of career,

877
00:45:23,687 --> 00:45:26,407
Speaker 2: a family. You had to put everything on hold, not

878
00:45:26,647 --> 00:45:29,127
Speaker 2: just for that week, but to also fly over with

879
00:45:29,327 --> 00:45:31,927
Speaker 2: Jack because she couldn't go on her own and admit

880
00:45:32,047 --> 00:45:34,247
Speaker 2: her all the way to the gate. Yeah.

881
00:45:35,607 --> 00:45:39,847
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a friend. That's why I say everyone needs

882
00:45:39,887 --> 00:45:40,767
Speaker 1: a friend like Gemma.

883
00:45:41,007 --> 00:45:42,967
Speaker 5: And I always say one day, I'm sure I'll ask

884
00:45:43,047 --> 00:45:43,647
Speaker 5: for something.

885
00:45:44,327 --> 00:45:47,647
Speaker 1: And I hope you do scenario No.

886
00:45:48,087 --> 00:45:51,847
Speaker 5: I Yeah, I was very lucky that I have a

887
00:45:51,887 --> 00:45:54,567
Speaker 5: good relationship thankfully with my ex husband. We co parent

888
00:45:54,647 --> 00:45:57,687
Speaker 5: really well together and we're still friends, and so I

889
00:45:57,927 --> 00:46:01,047
Speaker 5: was able to say to him, which is also very rare,

890
00:46:01,047 --> 00:46:02,927
Speaker 5: because you know, I spend so much time the kids

891
00:46:02,967 --> 00:46:05,287
Speaker 5: are with me a lot. I was able to say

892
00:46:05,287 --> 00:46:07,887
Speaker 5: to him, Hey, just I need you to take the

893
00:46:08,007 --> 00:46:10,327
Speaker 5: kids for a week, and so why and I just

894
00:46:10,687 --> 00:46:13,287
Speaker 5: am asking you as a favor, could she help me out?

895
00:46:13,327 --> 00:46:15,167
Speaker 5: And I think because he knows they're with me so much,

896
00:46:15,207 --> 00:46:17,287
Speaker 5: and he's a good guy in that sense that he

897
00:46:17,367 --> 00:46:20,367
Speaker 5: said sure, like you know, you very rarely asked me

898
00:46:20,487 --> 00:46:23,847
Speaker 5: to step in, and I'm happy too, so he did.

899
00:46:24,647 --> 00:46:26,927
Speaker 5: But I also knew that I only had a week

900
00:46:26,967 --> 00:46:29,087
Speaker 5: because I actually then had to get back to the kids.

901
00:46:29,367 --> 00:46:32,887
Speaker 5: And I'm also one of those this is one of

902
00:46:32,887 --> 00:46:35,487
Speaker 5: the things I'm working on on myself. We're all, you know,

903
00:46:35,807 --> 00:46:38,167
Speaker 5: evolving into as we get older. But is that I

904
00:46:38,407 --> 00:46:41,047
Speaker 5: am so dedicated to my kids like most parents are,

905
00:46:41,527 --> 00:46:43,927
Speaker 5: but mine's probably unhealthily so to the point where I

906
00:46:44,087 --> 00:46:45,047
Speaker 5: never want to leave them.

907
00:46:45,087 --> 00:46:46,167
Speaker 2: I tell you love helicopter.

908
00:46:46,407 --> 00:46:48,647
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm like a helicopter. I just love being with

909
00:46:48,767 --> 00:46:50,407
Speaker 5: them and so when I'm not with them, I get

910
00:46:50,687 --> 00:46:54,047
Speaker 5: terrible guilt. But I you know, for that week, there

911
00:46:54,127 --> 00:46:57,567
Speaker 5: was nothing obviously more important to me than getting jack

912
00:46:57,647 --> 00:47:00,327
Speaker 5: the help that she needed. So I was fortunate enough

913
00:47:00,407 --> 00:47:03,167
Speaker 5: that in my personal life a few things aligned, but

914
00:47:03,287 --> 00:47:05,847
Speaker 5: even I had to make up things because I had

915
00:47:05,967 --> 00:47:09,167
Speaker 5: like work commitments that week and I'd have to say, oh,

916
00:47:09,327 --> 00:47:11,527
Speaker 5: I've just got to go on a trip now for work,

917
00:47:11,727 --> 00:47:14,447
Speaker 5: so I'm gonna have to push that out, or friends

918
00:47:14,527 --> 00:47:16,447
Speaker 5: and were meant to be coming to, you know, stay

919
00:47:16,527 --> 00:47:18,727
Speaker 5: with me for the weekend. The following weekend, I had

920
00:47:18,767 --> 00:47:21,687
Speaker 5: to say, I've got a work trip, which was also

921
00:47:21,927 --> 00:47:25,127
Speaker 5: because I also everyone knows that we're so tightly connected.

922
00:47:25,247 --> 00:47:28,167
Speaker 5: So I also was mindful that if anyone figures out, well,

923
00:47:28,447 --> 00:47:31,727
Speaker 5: why is she away and she's also away, that's a

924
00:47:31,767 --> 00:47:32,247
Speaker 5: bit weird.

925
00:47:32,447 --> 00:47:35,687
Speaker 2: Like, so I was trying to, you know, make sure

926
00:47:35,767 --> 00:47:39,887
Speaker 2: that there was no moving. There were so many movings

927
00:47:39,967 --> 00:47:42,527
Speaker 2: because you had to call your ex husband, but Jackie

928
00:47:42,647 --> 00:47:46,047
Speaker 2: also had to call yours, yeah, and tell him what

929
00:47:46,247 --> 00:47:47,487
Speaker 2: was that conversation?

930
00:47:47,767 --> 00:47:53,247
Speaker 1: Like it was kind of short, and I mean the

931
00:47:53,367 --> 00:47:57,967
Speaker 1: thing with with my ex husband, Lee, I think you know,

932
00:47:59,327 --> 00:48:01,767
Speaker 1: he could probably tell in a way that there was

933
00:48:01,847 --> 00:48:04,607
Speaker 1: problems there, and I think for him, he was just

934
00:48:04,927 --> 00:48:10,167
Speaker 1: very he was empathetic and understanding. He had no judgment,

935
00:48:10,207 --> 00:48:12,687
Speaker 1: and he said, I think that's wonderful. I think it's

936
00:48:12,767 --> 00:48:15,167
Speaker 1: so good that you're addressing it then, and you know,

937
00:48:15,447 --> 00:48:18,087
Speaker 1: I will take care of Kitty and she you know,

938
00:48:18,327 --> 00:48:21,967
Speaker 1: And because we had to figure out how do I

939
00:48:22,367 --> 00:48:25,367
Speaker 1: because she likes to FaceTime, how am I going to

940
00:48:25,447 --> 00:48:27,727
Speaker 1: FaceTime her and rehab? What am I going to say?

941
00:48:28,087 --> 00:48:31,287
Speaker 1: And so we came up with the idea of it

942
00:48:31,487 --> 00:48:35,207
Speaker 1: being a radio conference and you know that I would

943
00:48:35,247 --> 00:48:39,927
Speaker 1: be overseas and and Lee was yeah, he I mean,

944
00:48:40,007 --> 00:48:43,127
Speaker 1: that's the thing with Lee, he is just one of

945
00:48:43,207 --> 00:48:45,967
Speaker 1: the greatest guys to co parent with. I mean, we

946
00:48:46,047 --> 00:48:50,007
Speaker 1: were great together in our marriage, but he has never

947
00:48:50,167 --> 00:48:53,727
Speaker 1: made anything difficult for me and vice versa.

948
00:48:54,487 --> 00:48:54,687
Speaker 2: Both.

949
00:48:55,407 --> 00:48:56,127
Speaker 1: Yeah, incredible.

950
00:48:56,727 --> 00:48:59,487
Speaker 2: I won't say I mean lucky. Yes, because the guys

951
00:48:59,567 --> 00:49:02,007
Speaker 2: that you were married could have been assholes or could

952
00:49:02,007 --> 00:49:04,167
Speaker 2: have become assholes after you divorced. And it takes two

953
00:49:04,207 --> 00:49:07,007
Speaker 2: people to make a good relationship after a divorce. But

954
00:49:08,047 --> 00:49:10,087
Speaker 2: what about the conversation you had to make to your

955
00:49:10,127 --> 00:49:13,087
Speaker 2: other husband or your other part husband called Kyle?

956
00:49:13,407 --> 00:49:18,327
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kyle, it was It was just difficult because I

957
00:49:18,447 --> 00:49:22,247
Speaker 1: didn't know if he was going to ask questions. That's

958
00:49:22,327 --> 00:49:26,487
Speaker 1: what I was worried about because with Kyle, I didn't

959
00:49:26,487 --> 00:49:28,647
Speaker 1: want to. I didn't want to lie to anyone. I

960
00:49:28,767 --> 00:49:31,367
Speaker 1: didn't want to, and so I was able to stick

961
00:49:31,447 --> 00:49:35,207
Speaker 1: to the truth somewhat in saying that I'm just not

962
00:49:35,287 --> 00:49:38,967
Speaker 1: getting better and I need to take this time off otherwise.

963
00:49:39,327 --> 00:49:41,527
Speaker 1: And it did seem odd because we were three weeks

964
00:49:41,567 --> 00:49:45,327
Speaker 1: away from being on a long holiday anyway, So I

965
00:49:45,407 --> 00:49:48,407
Speaker 1: knew that for him that would be a little bit odd,

966
00:49:49,127 --> 00:49:51,487
Speaker 1: like why can't she just hang in there for three weeks?

967
00:49:51,567 --> 00:49:52,927
Speaker 1: She always hangs in there.

968
00:49:52,807 --> 00:49:55,447
Speaker 2: You know. And I said, I have my COVID my

969
00:49:55,567 --> 00:49:56,167
Speaker 2: lung infection.

970
00:49:56,567 --> 00:49:59,087
Speaker 1: I'm not I just need it. And you know, I

971
00:49:59,207 --> 00:50:02,127
Speaker 1: said to him, I'm struggling, like I did tell him that,

972
00:50:02,327 --> 00:50:04,567
Speaker 1: and he was like, yeah, Okay, it's gonna be shit,

973
00:50:04,647 --> 00:50:06,367
Speaker 1: but I get it, and I'm you know, you do

974
00:50:06,487 --> 00:50:08,767
Speaker 1: what you got to do, and don't ask that many questions. No,

975
00:50:08,847 --> 00:50:11,167
Speaker 1: they don't do. They just take everything to face value.

976
00:50:11,207 --> 00:50:13,047
Speaker 2: In another part of your book, when you start dating,

977
00:50:14,607 --> 00:50:17,487
Speaker 2: not a lot of questions. I do take things at

978
00:50:17,527 --> 00:50:18,127
Speaker 2: face value.

979
00:50:18,247 --> 00:50:20,647
Speaker 1: They really do, and we should take them at phase

980
00:50:20,727 --> 00:50:21,607
Speaker 1: value at the time.

981
00:50:22,127 --> 00:50:25,127
Speaker 2: Maybe we asked too many questions before we get to

982
00:50:25,207 --> 00:50:28,647
Speaker 2: the logistics, and I'm not going to talk about rehab itself,

983
00:50:28,687 --> 00:50:31,567
Speaker 2: because you go into that so beautifully and interestingly in

984
00:50:31,607 --> 00:50:36,447
Speaker 2: the book. I want you to be to explain what

985
00:50:36,687 --> 00:50:39,927
Speaker 2: addiction looked like, because from the way we've been talking,

986
00:50:40,007 --> 00:50:41,607
Speaker 2: you know, I was taking too many pills and then

987
00:50:41,767 --> 00:50:43,847
Speaker 2: I was a bit tired and blah blah, and I

988
00:50:43,927 --> 00:50:48,847
Speaker 2: had to hide it, but talk about the physical effects

989
00:50:49,167 --> 00:50:50,687
Speaker 2: and what it did to your life.

990
00:50:51,567 --> 00:50:54,927
Speaker 1: So in the there's very different stages of it. So

991
00:50:55,287 --> 00:50:58,727
Speaker 1: in the beginning, when I had just separated and was

992
00:50:58,927 --> 00:51:01,327
Speaker 1: new to it and using it as a coping mechanism,

993
00:51:02,407 --> 00:51:07,767
Speaker 1: it was quite It was affecting me quite visibly, I think,

994
00:51:08,607 --> 00:51:12,807
Speaker 1: and because my behavior was strange in that early stage.

995
00:51:13,447 --> 00:51:17,047
Speaker 1: Now I was just going through a separation from not

996
00:51:17,207 --> 00:51:20,007
Speaker 1: only my husband but also fifty percent of the time

997
00:51:20,047 --> 00:51:24,007
Speaker 1: with my child, and so friends would come over, but

998
00:51:24,127 --> 00:51:26,007
Speaker 1: they would also see that I was drinking like a

999
00:51:26,127 --> 00:51:28,727
Speaker 1: goblet of wine. So they just put it down to

1000
00:51:28,807 --> 00:51:31,967
Speaker 1: that going through a divorce turning to a bit more

1001
00:51:32,007 --> 00:51:34,527
Speaker 1: alcohol than she should. But we've seen that play out

1002
00:51:34,607 --> 00:51:38,687
Speaker 1: many times, so it doesn't warrant an intervention by any means.

1003
00:51:39,207 --> 00:51:44,807
Speaker 1: But in those stages, I mean, I would the particularly

1004
00:51:44,887 --> 00:51:47,847
Speaker 1: the still knocks would just have a great effect, so

1005
00:51:48,847 --> 00:51:51,527
Speaker 1: you would take one. I would kind of wait until

1006
00:51:51,607 --> 00:51:53,567
Speaker 1: later in the day for that, because you know who

1007
00:51:53,687 --> 00:51:56,207
Speaker 1: wakes up and takes a still Knox. That didn't happen

1008
00:51:56,367 --> 00:52:00,687
Speaker 1: till later. And then once I had that still knox

1009
00:52:01,047 --> 00:52:03,767
Speaker 1: with the alcohol I'd already been drinking during the day,

1010
00:52:04,407 --> 00:52:07,087
Speaker 1: then you have this sort of blackout like and I

1011
00:52:07,167 --> 00:52:09,807
Speaker 1: don't mean blackouts, and you're on the bed, collapsed and

1012
00:52:10,007 --> 00:52:14,567
Speaker 1: you sleep for you know, hours on end. You're functioning normally,

1013
00:52:15,447 --> 00:52:18,887
Speaker 1: but you can't remember anything you did the night before.

1014
00:52:19,967 --> 00:52:25,207
Speaker 1: And I remember waking up one morning and I got

1015
00:52:25,287 --> 00:52:30,087
Speaker 1: this message from this guy who I haven't even said

1016
00:52:30,127 --> 00:52:32,487
Speaker 1: this in the book. I got a message from a

1017
00:52:32,567 --> 00:52:38,007
Speaker 1: guy and he said, oh, like, yeah, that sounds good,

1018
00:52:38,127 --> 00:52:41,887
Speaker 1: he said, but you know you should be careful who

1019
00:52:41,967 --> 00:52:44,127
Speaker 1: you say something like that too. And I was like,

1020
00:52:44,647 --> 00:52:46,327
Speaker 1: oh my god, what did I say to this guy?

1021
00:52:46,447 --> 00:52:49,447
Speaker 1: Would I say? And I scrolled back up to have

1022
00:52:49,567 --> 00:52:52,367
Speaker 1: a look, and I think I'd said to him something

1023
00:52:52,447 --> 00:52:54,967
Speaker 1: like hey, because we'd been on a date or something,

1024
00:52:55,087 --> 00:52:56,527
Speaker 1: and I said to him, hey, do you want to

1025
00:52:56,567 --> 00:52:59,247
Speaker 1: be friends with benefits? I mean, fuck, I'm mortified at

1026
00:52:59,247 --> 00:53:02,607
Speaker 1: the thought of even asking a guy that this guy was.

1027
00:53:03,007 --> 00:53:05,487
Speaker 1: This guy was I barely knew him. He was on

1028
00:53:05,687 --> 00:53:09,527
Speaker 1: TV and everyone knew this guy. And I thought, I've

1029
00:53:09,647 --> 00:53:12,127
Speaker 1: just asked this guy to be friends with benefits and

1030
00:53:12,327 --> 00:53:15,647
Speaker 1: I would never have done that sober, Yeah, And so

1031
00:53:16,047 --> 00:53:18,527
Speaker 1: I would see these things. The next day. I'd almost

1032
00:53:18,647 --> 00:53:22,407
Speaker 1: wake up in fear of what did I do? And

1033
00:53:22,487 --> 00:53:24,607
Speaker 1: I would scroll through my phone for evidence. I'd go,

1034
00:53:24,727 --> 00:53:27,967
Speaker 1: who did I text? What did I say? Because you

1035
00:53:28,407 --> 00:53:32,927
Speaker 1: become like this, it's almost like you want to chat,

1036
00:53:33,127 --> 00:53:34,847
Speaker 1: and you want to You've got all this kind of

1037
00:53:36,007 --> 00:53:38,327
Speaker 1: the idea seems so good in your head at the time,

1038
00:53:38,927 --> 00:53:40,727
Speaker 1: but then when you're sober and you wake up the

1039
00:53:40,767 --> 00:53:43,887
Speaker 1: next day, you go, what on earth was I thinking?

1040
00:53:44,047 --> 00:53:49,967
Speaker 1: So it was very destructive outer character behavior and scary

1041
00:53:50,047 --> 00:53:52,927
Speaker 1: to think that you are doing things that you don't remember.

1042
00:53:53,047 --> 00:53:55,487
Speaker 1: And then it got to a point where I'd have

1043
00:53:55,607 --> 00:53:58,767
Speaker 1: to write post it notes to remind myself of what

1044
00:53:58,847 --> 00:54:03,727
Speaker 1: I was doing, conversation and conversations I'd had. And then

1045
00:54:04,247 --> 00:54:06,327
Speaker 1: just in terms of the feeling, there wasn't actually even

1046
00:54:06,407 --> 00:54:08,327
Speaker 1: that great a feeling with it. It was more just

1047
00:54:08,847 --> 00:54:10,407
Speaker 1: the way I would like and it was just like

1048
00:54:10,527 --> 00:54:12,487
Speaker 1: it was numbing pain.

1049
00:54:12,767 --> 00:54:15,687
Speaker 2: What about the ulcer that also was that?

1050
00:54:15,887 --> 00:54:18,647
Speaker 1: I mean like I had this ulco where it was

1051
00:54:18,727 --> 00:54:21,807
Speaker 1: because of neurofy and plus and so I had no

1052
00:54:22,007 --> 00:54:25,767
Speaker 1: idea that iyberprofen would cause that kind of damage.

1053
00:54:26,007 --> 00:54:28,767
Speaker 2: And it was like such vast quantities on an empty

1054
00:54:28,807 --> 00:54:29,767
Speaker 2: stomach without.

1055
00:54:29,487 --> 00:54:32,967
Speaker 1: Absolutely they even say, I think when you normally take it,

1056
00:54:33,767 --> 00:54:36,007
Speaker 1: even on an empty stomach can be dangerous and you

1057
00:54:36,087 --> 00:54:39,607
Speaker 1: can get ulcers. So taking too much of iberprof and

1058
00:54:39,927 --> 00:54:42,047
Speaker 1: I wasn't even looking at the eyberprofen. I was just

1059
00:54:42,087 --> 00:54:44,607
Speaker 1: looking at the codeine. I wasn't even thinking about that.

1060
00:54:44,807 --> 00:54:48,007
Speaker 1: And little did I know that that had a severe

1061
00:54:48,087 --> 00:54:52,807
Speaker 1: side effect. So the consequences of all of that, Yeah,

1062
00:54:52,847 --> 00:54:56,167
Speaker 1: like were so leading. Ray didn't you? Yeah, yeah I did.

1063
00:54:56,447 --> 00:54:58,247
Speaker 1: I did, And it was really really big.

1064
00:54:58,487 --> 00:55:01,487
Speaker 2: You talk about how you became, You retreated from the world.

1065
00:55:01,807 --> 00:55:03,567
Speaker 2: You didn't want to go out, you didn't want to

1066
00:55:03,567 --> 00:55:06,607
Speaker 2: see your friends. The only time you'd see your friends

1067
00:55:06,647 --> 00:55:09,687
Speaker 2: is if they came to you. It was also COVID,

1068
00:55:09,847 --> 00:55:14,567
Speaker 2: so you just became more and more you know, closed

1069
00:55:14,607 --> 00:55:17,327
Speaker 2: it away. But then even when restrictions lifted, you didn't

1070
00:55:17,967 --> 00:55:20,367
Speaker 2: want to leave your self imposed prison.

1071
00:55:20,647 --> 00:55:23,527
Speaker 1: No, I was almost like, oh damn, the restrictions are lifted.

1072
00:55:23,607 --> 00:55:27,207
Speaker 1: That means like everyone, well, yeah, everyone's getting out and

1073
00:55:27,367 --> 00:55:30,727
Speaker 1: socializing again. And I didn't want to, like because COVID

1074
00:55:30,887 --> 00:55:32,887
Speaker 1: just all the ingredients were there. It was the perfect

1075
00:55:32,927 --> 00:55:38,167
Speaker 1: recipe for a lot of people. Yeah you could, Yeah

1076
00:55:38,327 --> 00:55:42,207
Speaker 1: you really could. And working from home just you know,

1077
00:55:42,367 --> 00:55:45,047
Speaker 1: gave us a lot of us an excuse to escape

1078
00:55:45,127 --> 00:55:49,247
Speaker 1: and not have any real you know, you didn't have

1079
00:55:49,727 --> 00:55:52,527
Speaker 1: half of your responsibilities were gone sometimes, you know, you

1080
00:55:52,607 --> 00:55:55,167
Speaker 1: didn't have to drive, and so therefore we could drink more.

1081
00:55:56,127 --> 00:55:58,207
Speaker 1: And so yeah, it was it was just like this

1082
00:55:58,567 --> 00:56:01,767
Speaker 1: kind of perfect storm, the moment in time that just

1083
00:56:01,927 --> 00:56:08,127
Speaker 1: all added to the convenience of making that situation worse

1084
00:56:08,287 --> 00:56:12,607
Speaker 1: and enabling it, you know. And so it was when

1085
00:56:13,047 --> 00:56:16,367
Speaker 1: the restrictions were lifted and people started socializing again, that

1086
00:56:16,487 --> 00:56:20,087
Speaker 1: was hard because I was still isolating myself away and

1087
00:56:20,207 --> 00:56:22,247
Speaker 1: I was very well aware that I was just not

1088
00:56:22,407 --> 00:56:27,367
Speaker 1: living life at all, but thinking it was better than

1089
00:56:27,407 --> 00:56:28,487
Speaker 1: what everyone else was doing.

1090
00:56:29,087 --> 00:56:31,367
Speaker 2: That was something that was so interesting in your book.

1091
00:56:31,407 --> 00:56:34,487
Speaker 2: You described I'd look at everybody else and I'd feel

1092
00:56:34,527 --> 00:56:38,207
Speaker 2: pity for them. It's like I'm just having a much

1093
00:56:38,287 --> 00:56:43,727
Speaker 2: better time with my pills, and then how after rehabit

1094
00:56:43,847 --> 00:56:48,727
Speaker 2: flipped and when you're like you just appreciated everything so much,

1095
00:56:49,727 --> 00:56:51,847
Speaker 2: jem I want to ask about the logistics of getting

1096
00:56:51,887 --> 00:56:58,527
Speaker 2: someone famous. And that wasn't the end of my conversation

1097
00:56:58,687 --> 00:57:00,847
Speaker 2: with Jackie and Jemma. There is still a lot of

1098
00:57:00,927 --> 00:57:03,407
Speaker 2: ground to cover, like how did Jemma manage to get

1099
00:57:03,487 --> 00:57:06,967
Speaker 2: jack out of the country without being hounded by the paps?

1100
00:57:07,487 --> 00:57:11,487
Speaker 2: And what was rehab like and more importantly, most importantly,

1101
00:57:12,047 --> 00:57:14,687
Speaker 2: how's she going now. We also spoke about why the

1102
00:57:14,767 --> 00:57:18,407
Speaker 2: world was so obsessed with her weight and what the

1103
00:57:18,527 --> 00:57:21,447
Speaker 2: true story was behind that. Like I said, so much

1104
00:57:21,567 --> 00:57:24,607
Speaker 2: more meet us in part two. We'll be waiting for you.

1105
00:57:24,967 --> 00:57:26,487
Speaker 2: There's a link in the show notes.