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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Mama Mia out Loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the twenty fifth

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Speaker 2: of February.

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Speaker 3: I'm Hollywayen, right, I am Jesse Stevens, and I'm Amelia Lester.

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Speaker 2: And here is what has made our agenda for today.

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Speaker 2: Two very famous celebrity deaths, two very controversial fundraisers. Why

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Speaker 2: are we so uncomfortable with famous people asking for money?

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Speaker 4: And the math's villain who some say has crossed the line.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to catch you up, but I have I

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Speaker 4: think quite an unpopular opinion.

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Speaker 3: Plus the listener dilemma that we cannot stop talking about

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Speaker 3: in the office. But first, in case you missed it,

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Speaker 3: have you noticed that I've been a little bit more

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Speaker 3: regal in my energy lately, a little bit more sort

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Speaker 3: of proper could be very.

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Speaker 2: Legal, could you?

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Speaker 5: Oh? Well, she's been wearing a crown.

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Speaker 3: Crown and I haven't ermine cape that I've been rocking,

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Speaker 3: and I've been also drinking more tea. And this is

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Speaker 3: because I am a British citizen.

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Speaker 5: Since when?

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Speaker 2: And also how many nationalities are we're claiming over the

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Speaker 2: side of the table. I thought you're American and Australian

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Speaker 2: and like, come on that greedy.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I am now a British citizen, and that's because

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Speaker 3: the British government is making me claim my British citizenship.

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Speaker 3: Two million Australians are in the same boat as me.

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Speaker 3: Two million Australians have at least one British parent, and

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Speaker 3: the UK government this month announced that anyone who is

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Speaker 3: technically a British or Irish citizen, and that is including me,

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Speaker 3: has to get a British passport in order to enter

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Speaker 3: the country. I can no longer just enter on the

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Speaker 3: thirty dollar visa waiver situation that most Aussies would enter

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Speaker 3: the UK on.

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Speaker 5: You'd be sent home.

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Speaker 2: And then you have to come home at your own cost.

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Speaker 1: I know it's a lot, now, Holy, I know this is.

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Speaker 3: You.

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Speaker 5: Have you filled out the.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about it because this issue

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Speaker 2: is keeping me up at night. Yeah. Bet, but my

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Speaker 2: intense aversion and inability to admin means I have not

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Speaker 2: solved it. So I've known this was coming, right, Oh.

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Speaker 1: So they've been like sort of previewing this for a while.

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Speaker 2: I've known it was coming, and I have a British passport,

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Speaker 2: but it's lapsed, Like because I'm in Australian now I

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Speaker 2: travel on my Australian passport. I haven't traveled it since

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Speaker 2: the British passport was no longer an EU passport. I

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Speaker 2: was like, what need for this do I have? So

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Speaker 2: it has lapsed. And so when I knew this was

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Speaker 2: coming a few weeks ago, of course I like tried

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Speaker 2: to admin. I went and got my photos done, which

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Speaker 2: is much more complicated than you speaks. You have to

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Speaker 2: get a digital pass code for it. You have to

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Speaker 2: go to a certain place. There was no place in

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Speaker 2: my neighborhood that does that. So I did it when

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Speaker 2: I was in Sydney, like I thought I was on it.

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Speaker 2: Then I had to get all this information from my parents.

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Speaker 2: So I did that, wrote it down to a piece

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Speaker 2: of paper, lost the piece of paper. Then I started

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Speaker 2: the application on the Internet and then halfway through I

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Speaker 2: had to go and do something else. And when I

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Speaker 2: came back and timed out. So I haven't done it.

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Speaker 2: And this is an important issue for me because there

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Speaker 2: is a high reality that I could be called back

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Speaker 2: to Britain at any moment. So I don't want to

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Speaker 2: talk about it.

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Speaker 1: And do your children have to get British passports too?

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Speaker 2: They will if we were planning on going there. We're

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Speaker 2: not planning on taking them there for a while, so

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Speaker 2: I'll worry about that later. But apparently right this is

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Speaker 2: all about tech. Britain is completely automating its border systems,

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Speaker 2: which I think Australia has done right. It's completely automating

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Speaker 2: their electronic border systems, and so that's why they need

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Speaker 2: everybody who's a British is to have a passport. But

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Speaker 2: come on, and I assume that there's a cynical, more

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Speaker 2: cynical reason, which is money.

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Speaker 3: Money, because it costs hundreds of dollars to get a

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Speaker 3: British passport.

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Speaker 2: It costs you around three hundred dollars to renew your

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Speaker 2: British passport. If you have to get one from scratch,

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Speaker 2: obviously it's more. And then if you're like me and

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Speaker 2: you haven't done it but you might have to go,

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Speaker 2: you can get an exception, but it's going to cost

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Speaker 2: you about thirteen hundred dollars.

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Speaker 1: To do that.

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Speaker 2: Then this is all money going to the British government.

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Speaker 2: So I feel like maybe we all know times have

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Speaker 2: been a bit tough in Britain. I think maybe they

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Speaker 2: need to replenish the coffers.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but my question is the computers. How do they

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Speaker 3: know like my family history? That's like, is there a

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Speaker 3: computer that knows all of that?

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Speaker 2: Well, there must be, because remember when all the politicians

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Speaker 2: a few years ago there was a big crisis in

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Speaker 2: Australia because all the politicians suddenly found out that they

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Speaker 2: were dual citizens and they didn't know. And you can't

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Speaker 2: be a member of parliament in Australia. I'm pretty sure friend,

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Speaker 2: that's true. Yep, you couldn't be a member of parliament.

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Speaker 2: This happened to Barnaby Joyce. It happened to quite a

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Speaker 2: few other nps and they were suddenly like, oh my

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Speaker 2: grandfather was from blah blah blah, and I'm not allowed.

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Speaker 2: So someone somewhere it's keeping tracks.

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Speaker 3: There's a computer that knows everything about our family history.

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Speaker 5: I don't like this at all. This is my least

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Speaker 5: favorite type of admin.

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Speaker 4: And I know, Holly that you're going to fill out

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Speaker 4: the form, You're not going to tick the box, You're

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Speaker 4: going to tick the wrong box. And then you're going

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Speaker 4: to get to Britain and they're going to send you

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Speaker 4: back and you're going to go, guys, you'll never believe

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Speaker 4: what happened, and we'll go no, Holly, we would do

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Speaker 4: believe what happened.

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Speaker 5: Stuffed it.

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Speaker 2: I wish I was better at admin. Any tips for

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Speaker 2: anyone who's.

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Speaker 1: Out and any tips for me on how to be British,

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Speaker 1: that would be great.

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Speaker 2: Oh I have a few at those id with you later.

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Speaker 2: Mostly when you're done with something, you slap your thighs

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Speaker 2: like this and you go all right, then that's that's

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Speaker 2: That's one of the key.

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Speaker 1: And apologize a lot, a lot you say sorry.

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Speaker 2: At the beginning of it.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry to bring this up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so sorry to bring this up. But in

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Speaker 2: the past two weeks we have lost two millennial TV icons, right,

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Speaker 2: James van der Beek obviously from Dawson's Creek, Huge Star

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Speaker 2: of the Time, and Eric Dane from Gray's Anatomy mcs

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Speaker 2: seem both of these men suffered a long, well actually

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Speaker 2: not long in Eric Dane's case, the torturous illnesses.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: James Vanderbeek was diagnosed with stage three colorectal cancer in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. Eric Dane went public with the fact

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Speaker 2: he was living with ALS, which is a fatal neurodegenerative disease,

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Speaker 2: in April last year. It progressed very quickly. In the

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Speaker 2: wake of both of these obviously tragic passings, two go

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Speaker 2: fundme pages popped up collecting money for their families. Right

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Speaker 2: as we're recording today, Eric Danes GoFundMe has raised four

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Speaker 2: hundred and twenty nine thousand dollars and James Vanderbeeks has

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Speaker 2: raised two million, seven hundred and forty three thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: So vanderbeeks go fundme page reads, in part, Kimberly and

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Speaker 2: the children are facing an uncertain future. The costs of

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Speaker 2: James's medical care and the extended fight against cancer have

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Speaker 2: left the family out of funds. They are working hard

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Speaker 2: to stay in their home and to ensure the children

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Speaker 2: can continue their education and maintain some stability. Your generosity

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Speaker 2: will help cover essential living expenses, pay bills, and support

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Speaker 2: the children's education. Eric Danes says, as his illness progressed

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Speaker 2: far more quickly than anyone could have imagined, Eric's friends

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Speaker 2: have come together to create this GoFundMe to support his

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Speaker 2: girls and their future needs. Any contribution, no matter the size,

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Speaker 2: will help provide stability during this incredibly diffult time and

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Speaker 2: in the future for Eric's wonderful daughters. The Hollywood Reporter

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Speaker 2: writes that for Van der Beek, Steven Spielberg wrote a

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Speaker 2: check for twenty five thousand dollars, Zoe Saldana pledged two

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Speaker 2: five hundred a month, various other high profile people did.

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Speaker 2: In total, it's raised nearly three million dollars. As I say,

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Speaker 2: tangible dollar and cents. Proof. The reporter wrote of how

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Speaker 2: much the Dawson's Creek star was valued in Hollywood and

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Speaker 2: how genuinely shaken the town was when he passed. Not everyone, though,

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Speaker 2: thinks that these gofundmes are fair. A typical kind of

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Speaker 2: critique is this doesn't sit right with me at all.

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Speaker 2: One of the threads on this backlash was saying, sure,

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Speaker 2: I get it, but thousands of people around the world

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Speaker 2: face this exact situation every day and deal with the struggle.

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Speaker 2: They don't get two and a half million. It's just weird.

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Speaker 2: He had to have had life insurance and residual checks.

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Speaker 2: The reporter went on, whatever money he made through his

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Speaker 2: decades on screen, it probably wasn't a huge amount and

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Speaker 2: got sucked up by the costly business of battling cancer,

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Speaker 2: especially the alternative therapies, Van der Beek is said to

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Speaker 2: have leaned into. By the end, he was reduced to

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Speaker 2: auctioning off Dawson's Creek memorabilia, like the et toy that

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Speaker 2: his character kept in his bedroom that's sold for six thousand. Now, look,

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Speaker 2: we're probably never going to know, nor should we, the

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Speaker 2: exact financial situations of these two men. But memorial fundme

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Speaker 2: pages are incredibly common, right. Sometimes they're for funeral costs.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes they help families left without a bread winner or

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Speaker 2: in debt over caring responsibilities, medical expenses. Sometimes it's for

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Speaker 2: charity in their honor, and the mainstream of it means

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Speaker 2: that also what has happened is a lot of people

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Speaker 2: call into account the fairness of this because do you

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Speaker 2: have somebody high profile who can share your GoFundMe, do

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Speaker 2: you have places it can travel far and wide?

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Speaker 4: What do we think that they're not fair and that

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Speaker 4: that's not the intention is to be fair? There are

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Speaker 4: near limitless gofundmes on the internet right now. I had

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Speaker 4: a family friend recently who's gone through something horrific. That

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Speaker 4: go fund me. I donated to that go fund me right.

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Speaker 4: I didn't go and check if it was the most worthy,

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Speaker 4: cause it was that I knew them, and I knew

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Speaker 4: their struggle right now. And the uselessness you feel in

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Speaker 4: the face of a tragedy is it compels you to

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Speaker 4: do something about it. And so I just keep looking

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Speaker 4: at this commentary and I think, no one's forcing you

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Speaker 4: to donate.

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Speaker 5: You don't have to.

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Speaker 4: Don't click if you don't want to. The fact that

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Speaker 4: Zoe Saldana or Steven Spielberg would donate makes sense to me.

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Speaker 4: They're probably in a similar community. I don't think that

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Speaker 4: we deserve full transparency of what their financial situation was,

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Speaker 4: whether or not money is even exactly what they need

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Speaker 4: right now. I assume that there's a lot we don't

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Speaker 4: know about their finances because this has been verified to

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Speaker 4: be organized by friends of the family. So I think

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Speaker 4: that they know stuff we don't. And the US healthcare

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Speaker 4: system is incredibly different to ours, like it can bankrupt

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Speaker 4: a family, and I think we know as well. There's

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Speaker 4: this incredible sub stack that Alyssa Milano wrote. Has anyone

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Speaker 4: read it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: She wrote one in the last few days.

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Speaker 4: She was on Charmed and has had a career as

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Speaker 4: an actress, and she basically says visibility does not equal

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Speaker 4: financial stability.

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Speaker 3: Well, this came up because she publicized to go fundme

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Speaker 3: for her son's baseball team, right, and so.

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Speaker 1: Got a lot of pushback about that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and she said, like, we don't know in terms

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Speaker 4: of residuals for Hollywood. You think that because someone was

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Speaker 4: on Dawson's Creek they're rich. In fact, his contract wasn't

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Speaker 4: that good. And the nature of working and getting a

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Speaker 4: lump sum of money and then you can't work because

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Speaker 4: you're sick and you spend all this money on treatments.

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Speaker 4: And remember Bruce Willis as well. For years he did

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Speaker 4: these movies that everyone's going, why is he doing these

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Speaker 4: movies so a low budget? He's in them for ten minutes,

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Speaker 4: he's on the poster. He was doing it so that

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Speaker 4: he could save money for his own treatment because he

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Speaker 4: knew that he was getting really sick and that he's

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Speaker 4: his family would need it. So actors are you know,

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Speaker 4: they're working and they're doing their best. And I just

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Speaker 4: think that the criticism has a little bit harsh in

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Speaker 4: the face of tragedy.

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Speaker 3: Nah, gives me the really, Yeah, I mean, obviously these

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Speaker 3: are two very sad stories.

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Speaker 1: There are millions of very sad stories.

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Speaker 3: I think it's interesting that you mentioned that we don't

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Speaker 3: deserve transparency, But I would argue that we expect transparency

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Speaker 3: of charities when they ask us for money we get.

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Speaker 3: We expect to know what do you need the money for,

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Speaker 3: where is it going to go? How much are your overheads?

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Speaker 3: When someone asks you for money, I think it's fair

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Speaker 3: that you expect a level of transparency about their financial situation.

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Speaker 2: I agree with you, Amelia, like it gives me the

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Speaker 2: ick in a way for that reason too, But I'm

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Speaker 2: kind of examining my ick because I agree with you.

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Speaker 2: But then once you've got that transparency, there's sort of

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Speaker 2: a relativity to that, right, So they might say, I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying necessarily this is true of these particular families,

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Speaker 2: but they live in a big home, and so you

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Speaker 2: could be like, well, I could give you fifty dollars

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Speaker 2: or you could live in a smaller hope, you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean? Let this yeh, once you open the

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Speaker 2: door to that conversation.

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Speaker 4: Though our gifts, this is a question is like I

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Speaker 4: give you tested if something awful happened to one of us, right,

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Speaker 4: and I want to send vouchers or I want to

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Speaker 4: send something like that, Do I have to know the

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Speaker 4: financial situation of that family before I send it?

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Speaker 5: Where it's like, well you can afford your own food, Well.

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Speaker 1: It depends on if you asked for it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if something horrible happens to your friend and

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Speaker 3: you want to send them a meal voucher, knock yourself out.

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Speaker 1: I think that's lovely.

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Speaker 3: But if you put out a public fundraiser to people,

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Speaker 3: you are opening yourself up to questions. And it is

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Speaker 3: true that James van Derbeek purchased a six point seven

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Speaker 3: million dollar ranch in Texas the month before he died.

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Speaker 1: That is a fact that is out there and that

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Speaker 1: has been reported. Now.

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Speaker 3: One comment I wrote, why is this being talked about?

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Speaker 3: He wanted his family to be okay before he passed away.

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Speaker 3: Will you let his family and friends grieve him in peace?

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Speaker 3: And to that, I say, it's been talked about because

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Speaker 3: they're asking me for money. They're asking the public for money,

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Speaker 3: and I think that once you open yourself up to.

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Speaker 1: That, it is fair to expect some level of transparency

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Speaker 1: about where the money is going.

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Speaker 4: So what if though the public it's clear that there's

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Speaker 4: public will to give and do something. So you know how,

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Speaker 4: for example, Princess dianatized and there are flowers, Everyone goes

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Speaker 4: and buys flowers, probably tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands.

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Speaker 5: Dollars worth of flowers. Probably not a great use of

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Speaker 5: anyone's money, but there is this community pull to do something.

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Speaker 2: And I think that community pull is now being pulled

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Speaker 2: more and more towards these kind of funds because it's

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Speaker 2: not only famous people who do it, as I discussed,

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Speaker 2: and often you can see very clearly, well that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: You know, we all know that family was struggling or

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Speaker 2: they can't afford the funeral or whatever. But I think

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Speaker 2: that you're right, Jesse, that people It's almost like there

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Speaker 2: are two kinds of people. There are people who are like,

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Speaker 2: if I put my ten dollars or my twenty dollars there,

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Speaker 2: it shows that I care, right, I don't want anything

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Speaker 2: in return, I don't really care what you do with it,

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Speaker 2: but it's my signal of support to you. And then

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Speaker 2: there are the people who are like, well, I worked

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Speaker 2: hard for my twenty dollars and I'm happy to give

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Speaker 2: it to you if I know it's going to a

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Speaker 2: good place.

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Speaker 5: Whereas Zoey sold out like she's the most well paid woman.

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Speaker 1: Yes, she's the highest grossing, the.

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Speaker 4: Highest grossing, the highest grossing woman. If she wants to

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Speaker 4: give however much money she wants to go.

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Speaker 3: But we're not really talking about zoe Selldana's donation here,

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Speaker 3: and the vast majority of the donations that went to

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Speaker 3: James van Derbeek were from regular people. Steven Spielberg notably,

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Speaker 3: he is an extremely wealthy man. He gave twenty five

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars to him. That's kind of a job in

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Speaker 3: the bucket. We're talking about the everyday people. You mentioned

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Speaker 3: that you can just not donate, But that idea of

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Speaker 3: like don't click, don't feed the trolls, don't donate is

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Speaker 3: a bit different because money is a finite resource. We

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Speaker 3: don't have infinite amounts of money, none of us do,

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Speaker 3: and celebrities doing this skew the whole culture towards this

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Speaker 3: idea that the people who deserve money for them healthcare

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Speaker 3: are people who are either famous, photogenic, have a particularly

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Speaker 3: compelling personal story. And I don't think that that's how

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Speaker 3: we want to distribute healthcare.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: That is a particularly American story, and we should mention

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Speaker 3: as you did, that the American healthcare system is very

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Speaker 3: different to these struggling healthcare systems. So I am just

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Speaker 3: keeping this to the American situation. But it's dystopian to

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Speaker 3: think that someone only deserves or can get money for

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Speaker 3: their cancer care because they're particularly famous or.

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Speaker 2: Agree, But I agree. But if that's the reality, that's

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Speaker 2: the reality, you know, because it isn't only famous, beautiful

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Speaker 2: people on go for me who are funding for treatment

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Speaker 2: for cancer and other conditions. There are a lot of

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Speaker 2: very ordinary people. Because as to the point you're making again,

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Speaker 2: if we're keeping it to America, I hear all the

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Speaker 2: time that you know, a cancer diagnosis in the States

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Speaker 2: can bankrupt a family in a hot minute. So if

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Speaker 2: this is an efficient, easy way to ask people to

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Speaker 2: support you, then it isn't only famous, photogenic people who

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Speaker 2: are doing it. However, it obviously benefits you more if

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Speaker 2: you have friends of means who can donate to you,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, and also friends of profile

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Speaker 2: who can promote it. I mean, I have a social

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Speaker 2: media following. Obviously to a point, I get asked a

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Speaker 2: lot to promote gofundmes lots and lots of times, and

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Speaker 2: I very rarely do it because a how do you

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Speaker 2: possibly decide, well, this story's worthy and this story is not?

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Speaker 2: And also how do you know if you don't have

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Speaker 2: a personal investment in it that it is the real thing?

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Speaker 2: But I did share one for a friend who had

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Speaker 2: a terminal illness not that long ago, last year, and

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Speaker 2: it was interesting because I got a lot of comments

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Speaker 2: when I did that, and I was quite specific about

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Speaker 2: what it was for. I did get a lot of

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Speaker 2: comments saying, well, why can't have family pay for that?

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Speaker 2: Why can't they do that? Why can't they I don't

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Speaker 2: know because I kind of sit on the fence here.

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Speaker 2: I share your ick, Amelia, but I also think if

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Speaker 2: I want to help, and I can help, and that

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Speaker 2: twenty dollars isn't going to hurt me. This seems like

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Speaker 2: an efficient way of doing it.

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Speaker 3: But I think that it sets up a set of

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Speaker 3: norms and expectations around whose illness is more deserving of money.

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Speaker 3: And these celebrity celebrities always lead the way in terms

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Speaker 3: of what we expect, and they set the new normal.

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Speaker 3: And this is becoming the new normal, and it does

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Speaker 3: give me the ick I have to mention that James

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Speaker 3: Van der Beek and his wife Kimberly had been pushing

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Speaker 3: anti vaccine propaganda for years.

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Speaker 1: James himself was involved, it wasn't just his wife.

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Speaker 3: They supported anti vax protesters in twenty nineteen by sending

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Speaker 3: them money for food and drinks. And that's relevant here

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Speaker 3: because by setting up an expectation that healthcare is something

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Speaker 3: that you should be crowdsourcing, I have to ask what

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Speaker 3: happens if there is a child who ends up with

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Speaker 3: an illness because the anti vaxes have influenced them in

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Speaker 3: some way, and.

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Speaker 1: How are they going to pay for their healthcare?

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Speaker 3: They're not rich, they're not famous, they can't publicize it,

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Speaker 3: and that's what gives me the ick about it all.

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Speaker 4: Fairness is a good point. I think that I have

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Speaker 4: bristled at it a bit because nothing's fair, Like even

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Speaker 4: when I've been to funerals that have had thousands of

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Speaker 4: people come, and I've been to funerals that have had

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Speaker 4: five people show up, and that's not indicative of the

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Speaker 4: worth of the person necessarily, or you know, how many

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Speaker 4: flowers have received or how supported the family is. And

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Speaker 4: so I sort of look at this and think it's

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Speaker 4: just an extension of that. And I also think there

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Speaker 4: are a lot of families who are not too proud,

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Speaker 4: but like, who would go, I have the means right,

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Speaker 4: And so I just think it's interesting that both of

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Speaker 4: these families went, yeah, we do need the help. Like

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Speaker 4: that to me indicates that there's something we might not know.

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Speaker 2: Jesse, all I'm seeing anywhere is maths headlines.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: I know we touched on maths last week, and we

398
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Speaker 2: promised we're not going to do it all the time,

399
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Speaker 2: but it has broken through my protective facade and I

400
00:19:04,554 --> 00:19:10,714
Speaker 2: need to know what is going on. It's called Tyson,

401
00:19:10,874 --> 00:19:12,714
Speaker 2: and it's all anyone's talking about.

402
00:19:12,914 --> 00:19:16,033
Speaker 4: It's the biggest storyline of this season. I think this

403
00:19:16,154 --> 00:19:19,194
Speaker 4: is probably the pinnacle they've been saving.

404
00:19:19,594 --> 00:19:21,513
Speaker 1: Is this the character that you've introduced us to?

405
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Speaker 4: So what they do is after a few weeks, when

406
00:19:24,874 --> 00:19:29,474
Speaker 4: some couples inevitably fail, they introduce new couples, right, and

407
00:19:29,514 --> 00:19:34,234
Speaker 4: this new couple is Tyson and Steph. Now we're introduced

408
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Speaker 4: to Tyson.

409
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Speaker 5: I felt a.

410
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Speaker 4: Bit like sorry for you, a Millia, because he's really

411
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Speaker 4: your type, right, He's a Trump supporter, he hates wokeism,

412
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Speaker 4: And I went has already.

413
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Speaker 2: Taken and he wants a submissive. Would have loved that.

414
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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 4: He doesn't like ambition, and he also wants like five.

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Speaker 1: Kids, and does he want a woman who takes care

417
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Speaker 1: of herself?

418
00:20:00,674 --> 00:20:05,154
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and him though also him cooks for him,

419
00:20:05,434 --> 00:20:10,354
Speaker 4: cleans obviously leaves her. Wants the kids downside, I know,

420
00:20:10,714 --> 00:20:13,154
Speaker 4: I know. And he goes to the gym because he

421
00:20:13,194 --> 00:20:15,594
Speaker 4: sees himself as like a ferrari or something and he

422
00:20:15,714 --> 00:20:18,994
Speaker 4: like needs to look after his body anyway. So Tyson

423
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Speaker 4: comes along and they match him with Steph and Steph

424
00:20:22,034 --> 00:20:25,074
Speaker 4: in her audition tape is like, I'm kind of done

425
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Speaker 4: with wokism too, Like I don't think Trump is that bad.

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Speaker 5: So you can kind of see.

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Speaker 1: They both literally mentioned Trump.

428
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Speaker 4: Yes, and in the background of his video he has

429
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Speaker 4: an American flag, but he's not American.

430
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Speaker 1: That's just a little bit weird and maybe it's like

431
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Speaker 1: me being British.

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Speaker 4: Yes, exactly right, exactly, So he and Steph mate. He

433
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Speaker 4: worries that she looks woke before she speaks.

434
00:20:50,394 --> 00:20:54,634
Speaker 2: She doesn't look well whatever, that she's blonde, and she

435
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Speaker 2: had a wedding dress on.

436
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Speaker 5: I don't know how she she never piercing. I guess

437
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Speaker 5: what is that woke?

438
00:21:00,914 --> 00:21:05,114
Speaker 2: Well, these guys like to go green hair and yeah, yeah, yeah.

439
00:21:05,114 --> 00:21:07,434
Speaker 1: It wasn't like AOC wearing the eat the rich.

440
00:21:07,394 --> 00:21:12,714
Speaker 4: D because yeah, and she didn't look like that. So

441
00:21:12,914 --> 00:21:16,553
Speaker 4: she comes up, they say they're vows. They appear to

442
00:21:16,714 --> 00:21:19,234
Speaker 4: get along, and then his true belief start to come

443
00:21:19,274 --> 00:21:21,033
Speaker 4: out because she's a real estate agent. She's like, I

444
00:21:21,154 --> 00:21:23,194
Speaker 4: quite like my job, and I'm going quite well, she's

445
00:21:23,194 --> 00:21:26,234
Speaker 4: thirty two. She's like, I don't know how a woman's

446
00:21:26,274 --> 00:21:27,553
Speaker 4: meant to live in the world without a job. At

447
00:21:27,554 --> 00:21:30,634
Speaker 4: thirty two, She's like, I've got to earn something anyway.

448
00:21:30,674 --> 00:21:32,434
Speaker 4: And now what's happened is they've gone on their honeymoon

449
00:21:32,474 --> 00:21:36,234
Speaker 4: and it's become clear that every time she speaks, he says,

450
00:21:36,394 --> 00:21:37,793
Speaker 4: you're giving masculine energy.

451
00:21:37,954 --> 00:21:38,474
Speaker 1: It's great.

452
00:21:39,514 --> 00:21:42,554
Speaker 2: And what's that clip that was like living.

453
00:21:44,274 --> 00:21:47,273
Speaker 5: And body count came up? How many people you've slept with?

454
00:21:47,394 --> 00:21:48,034
Speaker 1: He asked her.

455
00:21:48,234 --> 00:21:49,714
Speaker 4: They kind of talked about how it can be a

456
00:21:49,714 --> 00:21:52,514
Speaker 4: bit gross when women have slept with too many men.

457
00:21:52,794 --> 00:21:55,074
Speaker 2: That's true, as men can't help it because it's the

458
00:21:55,074 --> 00:21:55,874
Speaker 2: way they're designed.

459
00:21:56,754 --> 00:22:00,994
Speaker 5: Like just a Ferrari. He's been married before, and fuel.

460
00:22:02,034 --> 00:22:03,553
Speaker 1: So he's got at least one on his body.

461
00:22:03,594 --> 00:22:06,234
Speaker 4: He's got at least one. He's he's got dozens. But

462
00:22:06,434 --> 00:22:08,834
Speaker 4: when she said, oh, I've probably slept with about twenty,

463
00:22:08,914 --> 00:22:11,994
Speaker 4: he was like, that's gross and you're masculine. So there's

464
00:22:12,034 --> 00:22:14,994
Speaker 4: a bit of conflict happening between the two. She's, i think,

465
00:22:15,074 --> 00:22:16,194
Speaker 4: standing on her own two feet.

466
00:22:16,194 --> 00:22:17,754
Speaker 1: I'm just curious. What's his job?

467
00:22:17,954 --> 00:22:20,354
Speaker 5: He trained in the army, his job now is maths groom?

468
00:22:20,554 --> 00:22:25,553
Speaker 1: Yeah earlier, yep, my goodness. Anyway, so is that on

469
00:22:25,634 --> 00:22:26,154
Speaker 1: his ahto?

470
00:22:27,114 --> 00:22:28,994
Speaker 5: Yeah? Exactly, have some respect.

471
00:22:29,394 --> 00:22:29,634
Speaker 1: Now.

472
00:22:30,034 --> 00:22:34,154
Speaker 5: The criticism has been how dare married at first sight?

473
00:22:34,274 --> 00:22:34,674
Speaker 6: Platform?

474
00:22:34,754 --> 00:22:37,674
Speaker 5: These views are like how can you put.

475
00:22:39,474 --> 00:22:39,793
Speaker 2: Holly?

476
00:22:40,434 --> 00:22:44,594
Speaker 4: There is a rise in right wing conservative traditional values

477
00:22:44,834 --> 00:22:48,794
Speaker 4: manner sphere. This is Tyson is who women are coming

478
00:22:48,794 --> 00:22:50,274
Speaker 4: across on their dating profiles.

479
00:22:50,314 --> 00:22:52,674
Speaker 5: Every day. I chuck him on TV.

480
00:22:52,794 --> 00:22:55,273
Speaker 2: And encourage a whole load more of them. Do you

481
00:22:55,354 --> 00:22:57,994
Speaker 2: think the thing about this is? I said last week

482
00:22:58,034 --> 00:22:59,954
Speaker 2: I was done with being angry at married at first sight,

483
00:23:00,594 --> 00:23:03,674
Speaker 2: But this morning I've watched a few Tyson clips and

484
00:23:03,914 --> 00:23:10,714
Speaker 2: consider my pearls clutch married at first I said, I

485
00:23:10,754 --> 00:23:12,714
Speaker 2: was like, I'm just lolling him at this shown out

486
00:23:12,754 --> 00:23:16,793
Speaker 2: and then I was like, no, what got you? The

487
00:23:16,914 --> 00:23:20,674
Speaker 2: submissive stuff really got me. The conversations that people are

488
00:23:20,674 --> 00:23:23,674
Speaker 2: having about pink jobs and blue jobs and you know

489
00:23:23,754 --> 00:23:26,793
Speaker 2: them body count stuff. I know it's real. I know

490
00:23:26,914 --> 00:23:30,314
Speaker 2: it's real, right, But the question is, is as much

491
00:23:30,354 --> 00:23:32,434
Speaker 2: as there are many people watching this and going Tyson's

492
00:23:32,434 --> 00:23:34,594
Speaker 2: a prick and we're all biding and we're all getting

493
00:23:34,634 --> 00:23:37,114
Speaker 2: upset about it, there are also people watching this gun Yeah,

494
00:23:37,354 --> 00:23:40,834
Speaker 2: fair enough. Absolutely. I keep thinking about Dean Wells, right.

495
00:23:41,354 --> 00:23:43,474
Speaker 2: He is a guy who was on Maths years ago

496
00:23:43,554 --> 00:23:47,194
Speaker 2: I kin't of you wouldn't know your PhD. And he

497
00:23:47,394 --> 00:23:50,234
Speaker 2: is now a man of Spere influencer. He comments on

498
00:23:50,234 --> 00:23:56,273
Speaker 2: our videos all the time. He hates and so is

499
00:23:56,474 --> 00:23:59,714
Speaker 2: Maths now in the business of producing soldiers for the

500
00:23:59,714 --> 00:24:01,754
Speaker 2: culture war. That's what I'm wondering, you know what I mean.

501
00:24:01,874 --> 00:24:04,354
Speaker 2: He's his following is going up. He's going to be

502
00:24:04,354 --> 00:24:06,554
Speaker 2: a hill when he leaves this show, which won't be longer,

503
00:24:06,594 --> 00:24:09,793
Speaker 2: he'll be Carle's Show. On Carl's Show, He'll get a

504
00:24:09,834 --> 00:24:13,834
Speaker 2: YouTube channel going his follower So we are now creating

505
00:24:13,994 --> 00:24:17,394
Speaker 2: Manisphere influencers off this show in the guise of saying,

506
00:24:17,874 --> 00:24:20,394
Speaker 2: we're just having a conversation about it.

507
00:24:22,594 --> 00:24:26,394
Speaker 4: I think that this is a much needed mirror and

508
00:24:26,434 --> 00:24:29,914
Speaker 4: I think that if this is going to reflect the

509
00:24:29,994 --> 00:24:33,394
Speaker 4: current state of dating and Steph who has been single

510
00:24:33,434 --> 00:24:35,114
Speaker 4: for ten years and is on the apps and is

511
00:24:35,194 --> 00:24:39,114
Speaker 4: looking Tyson by all accounts, I don't think he's a

512
00:24:39,154 --> 00:24:42,033
Speaker 4: paid actor. I think that man is real and he

513
00:24:42,154 --> 00:24:44,314
Speaker 4: is sitting there going that. One of the last things

514
00:24:44,314 --> 00:24:47,474
Speaker 4: he said on last night's episode was I'm really looking

515
00:24:47,514 --> 00:24:49,914
Speaker 4: forward to seeing the experts because they're going to tell

516
00:24:49,914 --> 00:24:52,354
Speaker 4: her to get in line. Basically, they're going to tell

517
00:24:52,394 --> 00:24:56,434
Speaker 4: her that she needs to listen to me and start

518
00:24:56,434 --> 00:24:57,434
Speaker 4: acting like a wife.

519
00:24:57,954 --> 00:25:00,994
Speaker 5: The experts are not perfect, but that is not what

520
00:25:01,034 --> 00:25:01,474
Speaker 5: the experts.

521
00:25:01,914 --> 00:25:03,234
Speaker 1: What are these people? Works with him?

522
00:25:03,474 --> 00:25:08,073
Speaker 4: There's like a psychologist, John aken quest much and then

523
00:25:08,074 --> 00:25:09,074
Speaker 4: there's a sexologist.

524
00:25:09,074 --> 00:25:10,794
Speaker 2: It's like a little panel that you have to go

525
00:25:10,834 --> 00:25:14,354
Speaker 2: before and present yourselves and you can go feedback. And

526
00:25:14,394 --> 00:25:16,154
Speaker 2: he thinks they're going to tell him.

527
00:25:17,594 --> 00:25:22,154
Speaker 5: She should she should be quiet, that is naughty.

528
00:25:22,674 --> 00:25:24,434
Speaker 4: But what's going to happen is they're going to go

529
00:25:24,434 --> 00:25:26,033
Speaker 4: to a dinner party. You're going to get and this

530
00:25:26,074 --> 00:25:28,514
Speaker 4: is a social experiment of it all is that other

531
00:25:28,594 --> 00:25:31,754
Speaker 4: contestants are going to go, what is wrong with you?

532
00:25:32,234 --> 00:25:35,513
Speaker 4: The experts are going to go, you are not going

533
00:25:35,634 --> 00:25:38,234
Speaker 4: to find an equal partner. Not but that's what he wants.

534
00:25:38,274 --> 00:25:42,513
Speaker 4: But this is why you're single, sir. And she's also

535
00:25:42,554 --> 00:25:44,593
Speaker 4: going to realize get more clarity on what on what

536
00:25:44,634 --> 00:25:45,834
Speaker 4: she wants or whatever.

537
00:25:46,394 --> 00:25:49,273
Speaker 5: I reckon that it starts an important cultural conversation.

538
00:25:50,394 --> 00:25:52,354
Speaker 2: I'm all or.

539
00:25:52,354 --> 00:25:56,674
Speaker 3: It enters a conversation that's already happy. Yeah, like women

540
00:25:56,834 --> 00:26:00,714
Speaker 3: are encountering this behavior. Yeah, like men are becoming more

541
00:26:00,794 --> 00:26:02,514
Speaker 3: right wing, like we've got to engage.

542
00:26:02,554 --> 00:26:04,994
Speaker 2: True, it's one hundred percent. All of those things are true.

543
00:26:05,034 --> 00:26:06,954
Speaker 2: But later in the week we're going to discuss the

544
00:26:07,154 --> 00:26:10,314
Speaker 2: documentary about America's Next Top Model, and we're talking about

545
00:26:10,394 --> 00:26:15,313
Speaker 2: reality TV and the very irresponsible ways it treats people

546
00:26:15,994 --> 00:26:20,754
Speaker 2: and promotes different views. This is just the modern example

547
00:26:20,754 --> 00:26:23,714
Speaker 2: of the same thing, the diet culture, the race swapping

548
00:26:23,714 --> 00:26:26,474
Speaker 2: photo shoot. It's just the modern example. They're just stoking

549
00:26:26,554 --> 00:26:29,834
Speaker 2: cultur wars for ratings. Fair enough, but I don't think

550
00:26:29,874 --> 00:26:32,274
Speaker 2: it's helpful. I don't think it's smart. And now we've

551
00:26:32,274 --> 00:26:35,034
Speaker 2: got another guy who's going to be all over our

552
00:26:35,034 --> 00:26:36,754
Speaker 2: internet banging on about submissive.

553
00:26:36,794 --> 00:26:38,114
Speaker 1: Why when did Mars.

554
00:26:37,834 --> 00:26:40,234
Speaker 3: Say that it would needed to be helpful or smart.

555
00:26:40,554 --> 00:26:42,793
Speaker 3: I don't think it's claiming to be easier of those.

556
00:26:42,834 --> 00:26:45,593
Speaker 2: I don't But with the hindsight lens, we always do that,

557
00:26:45,674 --> 00:26:47,554
Speaker 2: we say how did we let this happen on TV?

558
00:26:47,714 --> 00:26:49,954
Speaker 2: How did we allow this version of the culture to flourish?

559
00:26:50,034 --> 00:26:53,354
Speaker 2: And it's like, I just think that the Tysons, he's

560
00:26:53,394 --> 00:26:55,754
Speaker 2: going to get exactly what he wants, which is more attention,

561
00:26:56,114 --> 00:26:59,234
Speaker 2: more fame, more influence, and why is that good?

562
00:26:59,674 --> 00:27:01,954
Speaker 4: My theory is that if they had put him with

563
00:27:01,994 --> 00:27:05,313
Speaker 4: a woman who was a either a real feminist, and

564
00:27:05,354 --> 00:27:07,874
Speaker 4: they put them together to troll them, I would go, oh,

565
00:27:07,874 --> 00:27:08,194
Speaker 4: that's just.

566
00:27:08,194 --> 00:27:09,754
Speaker 5: Annoying, that's a waste of everyone's time.

567
00:27:10,114 --> 00:27:12,114
Speaker 4: Or if it was with a woman who couldn't hold

568
00:27:12,154 --> 00:27:14,674
Speaker 4: her own I would also find that very uncomfortable viewing.

569
00:27:15,194 --> 00:27:18,914
Speaker 4: They've matched him with someone who's challenging him, and I

570
00:27:19,114 --> 00:27:20,954
Speaker 4: quite like that.

571
00:27:21,674 --> 00:27:24,154
Speaker 2: He said he wanted someone who was in her twenties

572
00:27:24,194 --> 00:27:26,234
Speaker 2: and she's thirty two and he's thirty, and he's very

573
00:27:26,274 --> 00:27:31,674
Speaker 2: upset about it. So she's up woke, a bit of

574
00:27:31,674 --> 00:27:34,593
Speaker 2: a slag, like he's up there calling her all those things,

575
00:27:34,754 --> 00:27:35,513
Speaker 2: and she has great.

576
00:27:35,554 --> 00:27:38,114
Speaker 5: She just keeps looking at the producers going what the fuck?

577
00:27:38,274 --> 00:27:39,994
Speaker 5: And I'm like, may I.

578
00:27:39,914 --> 00:27:42,273
Speaker 1: Agree in a moment?

579
00:27:42,434 --> 00:27:45,994
Speaker 3: Three women, three different life stages, and a dilemma which

580
00:27:46,034 --> 00:27:47,394
Speaker 3: is tearing us apart.

581
00:27:47,594 --> 00:27:50,034
Speaker 1: How's that for a reality TV very.

582
00:27:51,114 --> 00:27:53,874
Speaker 2: She's really got into the spirit since learning what it is.

583
00:27:53,954 --> 00:27:59,114
Speaker 2: I love it out loud.

584
00:27:58,874 --> 00:28:02,834
Speaker 6: As, Hello, it's Mia, And yesterday Amelia and I sat

585
00:28:02,914 --> 00:28:05,754
Speaker 6: down to talk about the new show Love Story, which

586
00:28:05,794 --> 00:28:09,794
Speaker 6: is about JFK Junior and Alberset. The reaction has already

587
00:28:09,834 --> 00:28:12,794
Speaker 6: been massive. I'm so relieved that there are so many

588
00:28:12,874 --> 00:28:15,754
Speaker 6: out louders that are as are obsessed with this story

589
00:28:15,914 --> 00:28:16,474
Speaker 6: and this.

590
00:28:16,514 --> 00:28:17,594
Speaker 2: Show as we are.

591
00:28:18,474 --> 00:28:21,514
Speaker 6: The show and our conversation covers all of it, how

592
00:28:21,514 --> 00:28:26,034
Speaker 6: she became so iconic, the fashion, the relationship, the drama,

593
00:28:26,554 --> 00:28:30,794
Speaker 6: her career and ultimately their tragic death, as well as

594
00:28:30,874 --> 00:28:34,274
Speaker 6: the similarities between her story and Princess Diana's.

595
00:28:34,794 --> 00:28:36,714
Speaker 2: Our subscriber episodes drop.

596
00:28:36,714 --> 00:28:39,154
Speaker 6: For you twice a week on Tuesdays and Thursdays, So

597
00:28:39,234 --> 00:28:41,874
Speaker 6: if you want to hear men your ears on those

598
00:28:41,994 --> 00:28:45,034
Speaker 6: days and out loud five days a week, follow the

599
00:28:45,074 --> 00:28:47,034
Speaker 6: link in the show notes and you can listen right.

600
00:28:46,874 --> 00:28:51,154
Speaker 3: Now and out Louder posted a dilemma in the Facebook

601
00:28:51,194 --> 00:28:55,394
Speaker 3: group and we in the office cannot stop talking about it. Vanessa,

602
00:28:55,594 --> 00:28:57,314
Speaker 3: who we have let know that we're going to talk

603
00:28:57,354 --> 00:29:00,794
Speaker 3: about this today. Rights. One of the things that Mia

604
00:29:00,914 --> 00:29:04,114
Speaker 3: consistently says is that women should keep working when they

605
00:29:04,154 --> 00:29:06,834
Speaker 3: have kids, even if it's part time, because you want

606
00:29:06,874 --> 00:29:09,914
Speaker 3: to have something to fall back on. And Vanessa writes

607
00:29:09,954 --> 00:29:12,314
Speaker 3: that she's always had that adage at the back of

608
00:29:12,354 --> 00:29:13,994
Speaker 3: her mind, even before having kids.

609
00:29:13,994 --> 00:29:17,434
Speaker 1: It's something she took really seriously. But she feels like.

610
00:29:17,514 --> 00:29:20,554
Speaker 3: Something is changing now that she and her husband have

611
00:29:20,674 --> 00:29:23,994
Speaker 3: two kids. It's all gotten very overwhelming. Her husband travels

612
00:29:24,034 --> 00:29:26,114
Speaker 3: all the time, he has this very demanding job.

613
00:29:26,154 --> 00:29:27,514
Speaker 1: He works all the hours.

614
00:29:27,994 --> 00:29:30,874
Speaker 3: She has a big job too, but she has taken

615
00:29:30,914 --> 00:29:33,194
Speaker 3: on full responsibility for the house and the kids, and

616
00:29:33,234 --> 00:29:35,474
Speaker 3: they've agreed on that because he's got to go full

617
00:29:35,474 --> 00:29:38,114
Speaker 3: throttle with his job in his career right now, and

618
00:29:38,154 --> 00:29:40,794
Speaker 3: they've agreed that she's going to hold down the home front.

619
00:29:40,874 --> 00:29:42,514
Speaker 5: And financially it makes sense for them.

620
00:29:42,594 --> 00:29:45,874
Speaker 3: Financially, it makes sense for them too. Meanwhile, Vanessa doesn't

621
00:29:45,874 --> 00:29:47,954
Speaker 3: think she could find part time work in her field

622
00:29:47,994 --> 00:29:50,394
Speaker 3: it sounds like she's got quite a senior job in

623
00:29:50,434 --> 00:29:53,554
Speaker 3: a field where part time work is not readily available.

624
00:29:54,314 --> 00:29:57,434
Speaker 3: So Vanessa writes that she would really value some different

625
00:29:57,474 --> 00:29:59,874
Speaker 3: perspectives on this issue. Should she throw in the towel,

626
00:29:59,874 --> 00:30:03,514
Speaker 3: should she quit her job and focus on the kids

627
00:30:03,594 --> 00:30:07,394
Speaker 3: and home, or should she try and keep doing this

628
00:30:07,794 --> 00:30:11,714
Speaker 3: rather impossible seeming balancing at She says, if you feel

629
00:30:11,794 --> 00:30:14,474
Speaker 3: like screaming at me, do not quit. Please do And

630
00:30:14,554 --> 00:30:16,794
Speaker 3: if you feel like screaming at me to quit, also,

631
00:30:16,874 --> 00:30:19,954
Speaker 3: please feel free. So we want to talk about this because,

632
00:30:19,954 --> 00:30:22,034
Speaker 3: as Jesse pointed out, the three of us are at

633
00:30:22,074 --> 00:30:24,834
Speaker 3: different life stages and therefore might be able to bring

634
00:30:24,914 --> 00:30:28,634
Speaker 3: some different perspectives to what Vanessa is asking about. Holly,

635
00:30:28,754 --> 00:30:31,314
Speaker 3: I know you feel very strongly about this. Do you

636
00:30:31,474 --> 00:30:34,834
Speaker 3: want to lovingly scream at Vanessa not to quit?

637
00:30:35,234 --> 00:30:37,554
Speaker 2: I actually don't want to scream at Vanessa. First off,

638
00:30:37,794 --> 00:30:41,074
Speaker 2: I love Vanessa the whole tone of this, so it's great, right.

639
00:30:41,154 --> 00:30:43,874
Speaker 3: Yes, it was really curious, Yeah, it was really curious.

640
00:30:44,474 --> 00:30:46,594
Speaker 2: One of the reasons why I think we're talking about

641
00:30:46,634 --> 00:30:48,954
Speaker 2: it is not only that we have opinions, but that

642
00:30:49,034 --> 00:30:51,394
Speaker 2: this dilemma in our Facebook group got more than three

643
00:30:51,434 --> 00:30:54,634
Speaker 2: hundred comments. Like our out louders were very invested and

644
00:30:54,674 --> 00:30:56,074
Speaker 2: opinionated about this too.

645
00:30:56,274 --> 00:30:58,914
Speaker 5: It is so in the lives if so many, because.

646
00:30:58,674 --> 00:31:02,074
Speaker 2: It's so real. Right, Vanessa needs to do what's right

647
00:31:02,114 --> 00:31:02,634
Speaker 2: for Vanessa.

648
00:31:02,754 --> 00:31:02,954
Speaker 3: Right.

649
00:31:03,034 --> 00:31:05,274
Speaker 2: I would never tell someone not to quit a job

650
00:31:05,314 --> 00:31:08,914
Speaker 2: that was either making them miserable, making their life can untenable,

651
00:31:09,474 --> 00:31:11,194
Speaker 2: or if they can live without it, if it's not

652
00:31:11,234 --> 00:31:14,674
Speaker 2: going to have an immediate financial hit. I would never

653
00:31:14,714 --> 00:31:16,154
Speaker 2: say to someone stay in the job.

654
00:31:16,314 --> 00:31:16,514
Speaker 1: Right.

655
00:31:17,194 --> 00:31:19,434
Speaker 2: So I think that she's got to make her decisions.

656
00:31:20,114 --> 00:31:24,194
Speaker 2: But in terms of the broader conversation that Vanessa's question poses,

657
00:31:24,274 --> 00:31:30,594
Speaker 2: I do have pretty strong thoughts, because so does Tyson. Well,

658
00:31:30,634 --> 00:31:32,474
Speaker 2: he'd be upset that she has a job at all.

659
00:31:32,594 --> 00:31:36,874
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly right. Tyson's like calling in going opinion.

660
00:31:37,274 --> 00:31:39,274
Speaker 2: Because Steph said to him, would you ever be a

661
00:31:39,354 --> 00:31:42,594
Speaker 2: house husband? And he said never? Never, never. You might

662
00:31:42,594 --> 00:31:44,714
Speaker 2: as well ask me to wear a skirt around the house.

663
00:31:44,834 --> 00:31:48,794
Speaker 2: That's that was Tyson's pathetic to tell. I think that,

664
00:31:48,874 --> 00:31:50,714
Speaker 2: of course Vanessa should do what's right for her family.

665
00:31:50,714 --> 00:31:52,874
Speaker 2: But in terms of the broader conversation, my question is

666
00:31:53,514 --> 00:31:56,794
Speaker 2: why is it always the default? It is the woman

667
00:31:56,874 --> 00:31:59,394
Speaker 2: who has to quit or scale back her job, right,

668
00:32:00,154 --> 00:32:03,394
Speaker 2: because the answer to that question is usually because the

669
00:32:03,434 --> 00:32:06,314
Speaker 2: man is earning more. Now, how are we ever going

670
00:32:06,394 --> 00:32:10,114
Speaker 2: to change that? Right? You don't put political or cultural

671
00:32:10,234 --> 00:32:12,474
Speaker 2: problems on individuals. So it's not about that, It's not

672
00:32:12,514 --> 00:32:14,634
Speaker 2: about Vanesse. You have to stay in your job for

673
00:32:14,714 --> 00:32:16,754
Speaker 2: the good of womankind. I don't think that even for

674
00:32:16,794 --> 00:32:19,914
Speaker 2: a second. But I think that whenever we say things

675
00:32:19,914 --> 00:32:23,274
Speaker 2: are choices, we have to always examine whether they're really choices.

676
00:32:23,834 --> 00:32:26,034
Speaker 2: And just like Mia always says about like, is it

677
00:32:26,074 --> 00:32:28,674
Speaker 2: really a choice that every pop stars wearing sparkling underpens?

678
00:32:28,674 --> 00:32:30,834
Speaker 2: And I was fight with her about it. I'm like,

679
00:32:31,034 --> 00:32:33,994
Speaker 2: is it really a choice that the women are always

680
00:32:34,034 --> 00:32:37,074
Speaker 2: putting their careers second? When all the women are doing it.

681
00:32:37,074 --> 00:32:38,714
Speaker 5: It's anything ever really a choice.

682
00:32:38,954 --> 00:32:40,754
Speaker 2: But the thing is right is that there is a

683
00:32:40,834 --> 00:32:44,354
Speaker 2: general cultural conversation that he works hard for his family,

684
00:32:44,394 --> 00:32:46,114
Speaker 2: it's an excuse for him not to be around and

685
00:32:46,194 --> 00:32:48,634
Speaker 2: for him to be the provider, and so therefore that

686
00:32:48,714 --> 00:32:50,914
Speaker 2: always puts his roleb of yours. When you flip that

687
00:32:51,034 --> 00:32:53,754
Speaker 2: and it's the woman who's absent working hard. In a way,

688
00:32:54,114 --> 00:32:57,154
Speaker 2: there is a very different conversation about it, and I

689
00:32:57,194 --> 00:33:01,714
Speaker 2: think that it is valid to ask why is it

690
00:33:01,794 --> 00:33:05,034
Speaker 2: always this idea that the man's job, his heavy demanding

691
00:33:05,074 --> 00:33:06,514
Speaker 2: job that keeps him out to one in the morning,

692
00:33:06,514 --> 00:33:08,354
Speaker 2: it means he has travel all the time, cannot be

693
00:33:08,434 --> 00:33:11,474
Speaker 2: altered or scaled back or changed in any way. But

694
00:33:11,674 --> 00:33:15,434
Speaker 2: every woman's job, no matter how important or senior, apparently

695
00:33:15,474 --> 00:33:18,674
Speaker 2: can every woman has to go and have that conversation

696
00:33:18,794 --> 00:33:22,874
Speaker 2: and say maybe when, really, as this problem becomes if

697
00:33:22,874 --> 00:33:24,634
Speaker 2: it's a problem, which it isn't a problem for lots

698
00:33:24,634 --> 00:33:27,034
Speaker 2: of families because they they're comfortable with the roles that

699
00:33:27,034 --> 00:33:29,634
Speaker 2: they're in, but this is going to become more and

700
00:33:29,674 --> 00:33:31,114
Speaker 2: more of a live issue all the time. More women

701
00:33:31,194 --> 00:33:33,674
Speaker 2: are graduating university than men, more women are earning more

702
00:33:33,714 --> 00:33:36,034
Speaker 2: than men, more women are in leading careers than men.

703
00:33:36,514 --> 00:33:40,394
Speaker 2: If we just blindly always just assume that the man's

704
00:33:40,554 --> 00:33:44,034
Speaker 2: role takes priority, then how's that going to work?

705
00:33:44,154 --> 00:33:44,354
Speaker 6: Yeah?

706
00:33:44,394 --> 00:33:47,434
Speaker 2: And there isn't there a legitimacy to saying shouldn't we

707
00:33:47,474 --> 00:33:51,154
Speaker 2: be aiming for a different ideal, which is two people

708
00:33:52,154 --> 00:33:55,994
Speaker 2: compromising on their roles and the fullness of their ambition

709
00:33:56,074 --> 00:33:59,634
Speaker 2: and their financial reach to create a whole that is

710
00:33:59,714 --> 00:34:01,834
Speaker 2: my question for the universe.

711
00:34:02,034 --> 00:34:05,114
Speaker 5: My instinct when I read this was quit.

712
00:34:06,354 --> 00:34:08,074
Speaker 2: Or if nessa, what's the question she should quit?

713
00:34:08,393 --> 00:34:12,673
Speaker 4: And what I think is really hard and what because

714
00:34:12,674 --> 00:34:15,234
Speaker 4: of your instinct is to go, well, Vanessa, what do

715
00:34:15,274 --> 00:34:17,994
Speaker 4: you want to do? And I have found that question

716
00:34:18,194 --> 00:34:22,114
Speaker 4: impossible to answer since I had a baby. There is

717
00:34:22,154 --> 00:34:24,474
Speaker 4: no answer to what Jesse wants to do, because what

718
00:34:24,554 --> 00:34:26,554
Speaker 4: Jesse wants to do and what Luca wants to do,

719
00:34:26,794 --> 00:34:31,594
Speaker 4: like both of us, is so now inexplicably tied to

720
00:34:31,954 --> 00:34:35,634
Speaker 4: Luna's needs that there is no world where you get

721
00:34:35,674 --> 00:34:37,474
Speaker 4: to sit in a room with all the doors closed

722
00:34:37,514 --> 00:34:39,073
Speaker 4: and go, what does my heart want?

723
00:34:39,194 --> 00:34:41,194
Speaker 5: Because my heart is in a thousand.

724
00:34:40,874 --> 00:34:44,354
Speaker 4: Your heart, it's not yeah anymore, exactly, it doesn't belong

725
00:34:44,394 --> 00:34:47,954
Speaker 4: to me anymore. And so I think that's actually a

726
00:34:47,994 --> 00:34:52,314
Speaker 4: really hard question to put on women. Her life sounds

727
00:34:52,354 --> 00:34:54,553
Speaker 4: and I wonder if this is also the second child.

728
00:34:54,634 --> 00:34:56,594
Speaker 4: I have seen this with a lot of friends who

729
00:34:56,594 --> 00:34:59,034
Speaker 4: are a bit ahead of me, where they've had the

730
00:34:59,114 --> 00:35:03,634
Speaker 4: second child and they've gone, oh, this is a lot

731
00:35:03,674 --> 00:35:07,234
Speaker 4: of work to do alongside a full time job. I

732
00:35:07,274 --> 00:35:11,034
Speaker 4: think that we also assume that parenting is this trajectory

733
00:35:11,074 --> 00:35:13,634
Speaker 4: where it's really intense for the first I don't know,

734
00:35:13,674 --> 00:35:17,034
Speaker 4: six to twelve months, and then it gradually gets easier.

735
00:35:17,394 --> 00:35:19,473
Speaker 4: And I know a lot of people who when their

736
00:35:19,594 --> 00:35:24,434
Speaker 4: child is six or ten or fourteen, there are health issues,

737
00:35:24,474 --> 00:35:28,033
Speaker 4: there are emotional issues, there are moving lots of things

738
00:35:28,034 --> 00:35:31,314
Speaker 4: that happen in life where you take some time out

739
00:35:31,314 --> 00:35:37,674
Speaker 4: of the workforce and to then guilt women and suggest

740
00:35:37,914 --> 00:35:39,794
Speaker 4: that they're doing feminism wrong.

741
00:35:39,834 --> 00:35:41,834
Speaker 5: If that's you're doing that, yeah.

742
00:35:42,114 --> 00:35:43,714
Speaker 2: You're not doing that position, No, no, no.

743
00:35:43,874 --> 00:35:46,074
Speaker 4: I just think that this thing about like never leave

744
00:35:46,114 --> 00:35:49,034
Speaker 4: your job, which we've argued with me are about before,

745
00:35:49,194 --> 00:35:52,074
Speaker 4: which I think she's softened on. I find that to

746
00:35:52,154 --> 00:35:56,354
Speaker 4: be another way in which women kind of feel trapped.

747
00:35:56,394 --> 00:35:59,714
Speaker 4: So my advice would be, if you're feeling that pool,

748
00:36:00,634 --> 00:36:06,354
Speaker 4: then quit or leave or take some time off for a.

749
00:36:06,634 --> 00:36:07,434
Speaker 5: Period of time.

750
00:36:07,794 --> 00:36:10,674
Speaker 4: I'm going to take six months and then sit in

751
00:36:10,714 --> 00:36:14,354
Speaker 4: that let yourself embrace that season.

752
00:36:15,194 --> 00:36:16,274
Speaker 5: And it's not forever.

753
00:36:16,554 --> 00:36:17,034
Speaker 2: This stuff.

754
00:36:17,274 --> 00:36:17,953
Speaker 5: Life is long.

755
00:36:18,034 --> 00:36:20,913
Speaker 3: I think that's good advice, And Holly, I have to

756
00:36:20,994 --> 00:36:23,634
Speaker 3: say that I'm going to hold you a bit accountable here.

757
00:36:24,394 --> 00:36:28,394
Speaker 3: Vanessa does want our advice, So I agree with everything

758
00:36:28,434 --> 00:36:30,433
Speaker 3: you just said about we need to get to the

759
00:36:30,474 --> 00:36:33,274
Speaker 3: point as a society where both men and women are

760
00:36:33,394 --> 00:36:37,154
Speaker 3: thinking about how they can balance home and work better.

761
00:36:37,674 --> 00:36:40,514
Speaker 3: But Vanessa is in a very specific situation and she

762
00:36:40,594 --> 00:36:44,314
Speaker 3: needs advice now, So I think what Jesse just suggested

763
00:36:44,514 --> 00:36:45,474
Speaker 3: makes a lot of sense.

764
00:36:45,554 --> 00:36:48,354
Speaker 2: Yeah, But in that instance, the reason I bring up

765
00:36:48,394 --> 00:36:50,514
Speaker 2: the point about I don't think we should be getting

766
00:36:50,554 --> 00:36:52,354
Speaker 2: to a point where men and women are like, why

767
00:36:52,394 --> 00:36:53,874
Speaker 2: can't you well.

768
00:36:53,714 --> 00:36:56,994
Speaker 3: Why Vanessa's explained why he's making a lot more money

769
00:36:57,314 --> 00:36:58,953
Speaker 3: and she can't go part time for.

770
00:36:58,914 --> 00:37:01,194
Speaker 2: Sure, And as I say, I think Vanessa is in

771
00:37:01,194 --> 00:37:03,954
Speaker 2: a nontenable situation. She should quit. That would be my advice.

772
00:37:03,994 --> 00:37:06,873
Speaker 2: But this is a broader conversation, because the place that

773
00:37:06,914 --> 00:37:09,474
Speaker 2: this went is to a much broader conversation.

774
00:37:09,554 --> 00:37:12,674
Speaker 4: And what you've said too, Holly, is you've got to

775
00:37:12,674 --> 00:37:16,834
Speaker 4: be careful about the not the standard, but what the

776
00:37:16,874 --> 00:37:18,634
Speaker 4: setup is from the beginning, because.

777
00:37:18,354 --> 00:37:22,034
Speaker 2: It's bled's my issue with the idea of and again

778
00:37:22,154 --> 00:37:25,953
Speaker 2: this is not about Vanessa, right, but the question of oh,

779
00:37:25,954 --> 00:37:27,834
Speaker 2: it's just for six months, it's just for a year,

780
00:37:28,234 --> 00:37:29,514
Speaker 2: You've got to be careful with that.

781
00:37:29,594 --> 00:37:29,794
Speaker 3: Right.

782
00:37:30,234 --> 00:37:32,674
Speaker 2: Of course, the needs of your family going to change

783
00:37:32,674 --> 00:37:35,234
Speaker 2: all the time, But what you start off with whose

784
00:37:35,314 --> 00:37:37,634
Speaker 2: roles are what and who's responsible for what are very

785
00:37:37,634 --> 00:37:41,393
Speaker 2: difficult to shift once they are entrenched. And also financial

786
00:37:41,434 --> 00:37:44,393
Speaker 2: situations are very difficult to shift once they're entrenched. So

787
00:37:44,754 --> 00:37:46,913
Speaker 2: Vanessa makes the point. She says in her post that

788
00:37:46,954 --> 00:37:49,314
Speaker 2: she thinks there's probably five years of her husband working

789
00:37:49,354 --> 00:37:52,234
Speaker 2: the way he's working, which you know, there could be many,

790
00:37:52,274 --> 00:37:54,834
Speaker 2: many reasons for that, but it's unlikely that in five

791
00:37:54,914 --> 00:37:57,634
Speaker 2: years as a family, you're going to go this lifestyle

792
00:37:57,674 --> 00:38:00,354
Speaker 2: that we're in, what it costs us, the place we live,

793
00:38:00,474 --> 00:38:02,714
Speaker 2: all those things, suddenly we can go back.

794
00:38:02,794 --> 00:38:05,714
Speaker 3: I think that is absolutely true, and it's one of

795
00:38:05,754 --> 00:38:10,194
Speaker 3: the truest things, like your lifestyle. You cannot downgrade your

796
00:38:10,194 --> 00:38:12,634
Speaker 3: lifestyle once you've gotten used to something, and that's why

797
00:38:12,674 --> 00:38:16,154
Speaker 3: they call it golden handcuffs. Like particularly lucrative jobs do

798
00:38:16,314 --> 00:38:18,034
Speaker 3: become golden handcuffs for people.

799
00:38:18,154 --> 00:38:21,394
Speaker 4: I do think though parenting, you know, it does happen

800
00:38:21,594 --> 00:38:24,234
Speaker 4: in seasons, and you see people go on, now that

801
00:38:24,274 --> 00:38:25,674
Speaker 4: my kids are at this stage, or I've got this

802
00:38:25,754 --> 00:38:29,674
Speaker 4: moment or whatever, I can lean back in and whether

803
00:38:29,754 --> 00:38:30,913
Speaker 4: it's and.

804
00:38:30,954 --> 00:38:33,553
Speaker 2: Go from three to five, from five to yeah. Most

805
00:38:33,834 --> 00:38:36,474
Speaker 2: in reality, most women over the course of those parenting

806
00:38:36,554 --> 00:38:39,393
Speaker 2: years will at different times work full time, part time,

807
00:38:39,514 --> 00:38:42,593
Speaker 2: not at all, full time, part time, not at all. Really,

808
00:38:42,754 --> 00:38:43,794
Speaker 2: you have things to say.

809
00:38:43,994 --> 00:38:45,754
Speaker 1: No, you're actually just making me.

810
00:38:46,194 --> 00:38:48,594
Speaker 3: I've basically changed my position as a result of what

811
00:38:48,634 --> 00:38:52,873
Speaker 3: you said at first, because I think that this five

812
00:38:52,994 --> 00:38:55,114
Speaker 3: years thing is a little bit of a fiction, or

813
00:38:55,114 --> 00:38:57,354
Speaker 3: it could potentially be a fiction for all the reasons

814
00:38:57,394 --> 00:38:57,754
Speaker 3: you said.

815
00:38:58,034 --> 00:38:58,913
Speaker 1: You get entrenched in.

816
00:38:58,874 --> 00:39:02,474
Speaker 3: A particular habit, a particular family dynamic, a particular lifestyle,

817
00:39:02,594 --> 00:39:04,834
Speaker 3: and then you can't change it once the five years

818
00:39:04,834 --> 00:39:07,994
Speaker 3: are up and he's suddenly achieved the professional goal that

819
00:39:08,034 --> 00:39:11,594
Speaker 3: he's been working towards. I wonder if there isn't a

820
00:39:11,634 --> 00:39:14,953
Speaker 3: bigger conversation to be had right now about what their

821
00:39:15,034 --> 00:39:18,314
Speaker 3: long term goals are. Is it all that important that

822
00:39:18,354 --> 00:39:22,754
Speaker 3: he ends up making the extremely high salary that he's

823
00:39:22,754 --> 00:39:23,834
Speaker 3: clearly working towards.

824
00:39:23,994 --> 00:39:26,034
Speaker 4: Maybe it's not, And the question is can we get

825
00:39:26,074 --> 00:39:27,634
Speaker 4: on the same page about what five years?

826
00:39:28,074 --> 00:39:28,234
Speaker 6: Yeah?

827
00:39:28,274 --> 00:39:31,914
Speaker 3: And I wonder if actually your initial sort of framing

828
00:39:31,994 --> 00:39:35,154
Speaker 3: of this as men and women do need to eventually

829
00:39:35,274 --> 00:39:38,873
Speaker 3: be talking together about how to make these compromises, whether

830
00:39:38,954 --> 00:39:41,074
Speaker 3: Vanessa and a husband need to be having that conversation

831
00:39:41,194 --> 00:39:41,593
Speaker 3: right now.

832
00:39:41,714 --> 00:39:43,873
Speaker 2: I wonder that too, because I do think we look

833
00:39:43,874 --> 00:39:45,913
Speaker 2: at it as an all or nothing, and I think

834
00:39:45,914 --> 00:39:49,794
Speaker 2: that as women's careers are better awarded better awarded, there's

835
00:39:49,794 --> 00:39:51,473
Speaker 2: still a long way to go in that gap. Then

836
00:39:51,994 --> 00:39:54,074
Speaker 2: it just makes more sense for it to be a

837
00:39:54,154 --> 00:39:56,834
Speaker 2: holistic view, rather than one person getting to pursue the

838
00:39:56,834 --> 00:39:58,714
Speaker 2: goals they've always had and the other person having to

839
00:39:58,714 --> 00:40:01,433
Speaker 2: completely shift them. Now again, it might suit you. There's

840
00:40:01,434 --> 00:40:02,994
Speaker 2: one other thing we have to discuss, though, because it's

841
00:40:03,034 --> 00:40:05,354
Speaker 2: what lots about Louder said in this it was about super,

842
00:40:05,594 --> 00:40:08,954
Speaker 2: it was about divorce. Yes, okay, So a lot of

843
00:40:09,034 --> 00:40:13,434
Speaker 2: people in their answers in this said, sure, it's fine,

844
00:40:13,474 --> 00:40:15,873
Speaker 2: as long as everything's fine. But there are a few

845
00:40:15,954 --> 00:40:17,634
Speaker 2: stories in there, and this is one of me as

846
00:40:17,674 --> 00:40:19,954
Speaker 2: points that she's always said when she's talked about women

847
00:40:19,994 --> 00:40:22,954
Speaker 2: need to keep working to maintain a modicum of financial

848
00:40:22,954 --> 00:40:25,474
Speaker 2: independence in case the shit hits the fan. Now, I

849
00:40:25,474 --> 00:40:27,634
Speaker 2: would suggest you probably need to anyway if you can

850
00:40:27,754 --> 00:40:30,594
Speaker 2: and you want to, right, But I think that that

851
00:40:30,794 --> 00:40:34,473
Speaker 2: is a valid question, which leads us to super, which

852
00:40:34,474 --> 00:40:36,754
Speaker 2: is not the most exciting topic in the world. But

853
00:40:37,234 --> 00:40:39,794
Speaker 2: I didn't even know that you know, your partner can

854
00:40:39,834 --> 00:40:42,194
Speaker 2: contribute to your super while you're not working and keep

855
00:40:42,234 --> 00:40:44,674
Speaker 2: it top top, And lots of out louders said that

856
00:40:44,794 --> 00:40:46,913
Speaker 2: very practical thing. They said, make sure of that. But

857
00:40:47,034 --> 00:40:49,794
Speaker 2: it is also it is a real thing that if

858
00:40:49,834 --> 00:40:52,393
Speaker 2: you are prepared, if it's an agreed thing, that one

859
00:40:52,674 --> 00:40:57,114
Speaker 2: person in the partnership gets to achieve, earn, strive, do

860
00:40:57,194 --> 00:40:59,634
Speaker 2: all this stuff, and the other person gets to build

861
00:40:59,634 --> 00:41:02,914
Speaker 2: a family, which is unbelievably important and work. No question

862
00:41:03,154 --> 00:41:05,794
Speaker 2: for how much work that is to be the person

863
00:41:05,834 --> 00:41:09,194
Speaker 2: looking after the family, But it's not financially rewarded. Is

864
00:41:09,234 --> 00:41:11,794
Speaker 2: that if that family fractures, you are left in a

865
00:41:11,874 --> 00:41:14,674
Speaker 2: very difficult situation. And a lot of people in these

866
00:41:14,714 --> 00:41:16,794
Speaker 2: comments said, the man you marry isn't the manu divorce,

867
00:41:16,834 --> 00:41:18,594
Speaker 2: which is something that you hear all the time. So

868
00:41:18,634 --> 00:41:20,473
Speaker 2: people go, well, he would never and he would never,

869
00:41:20,554 --> 00:41:23,873
Speaker 2: and it's like so I just think all of these

870
00:41:23,874 --> 00:41:26,154
Speaker 2: things put together in a pot. I just think we

871
00:41:26,154 --> 00:41:29,234
Speaker 2: should always question why it is the woman's career that

872
00:41:29,274 --> 00:41:32,594
Speaker 2: automatically and why we always go he works hard for

873
00:41:32,634 --> 00:41:34,714
Speaker 2: the family, it's great that he's never here. Well it's

874
00:41:34,754 --> 00:41:37,314
Speaker 2: not great, but it's a great sacrifice that he's never here.

875
00:41:38,234 --> 00:41:40,634
Speaker 2: I have sympathy for that because sometimes that's my situation.

876
00:41:41,434 --> 00:41:44,674
Speaker 2: But I'm also like, but why can't he pull back

877
00:41:44,714 --> 00:41:47,513
Speaker 2: a bit? Is it really impractical for him to go?

878
00:41:47,954 --> 00:41:50,794
Speaker 2: Maybe my massive job that sucks up every hour of

879
00:41:50,794 --> 00:41:53,433
Speaker 2: my day is not conducive to family life.

880
00:41:53,874 --> 00:41:58,794
Speaker 4: If a marriage can't fit two massive jobs of the time,

881
00:41:58,794 --> 00:41:59,234
Speaker 4: it's the woman.

882
00:41:59,434 --> 00:42:02,114
Speaker 2: Maybe you could have two medium sized jobs.

883
00:42:02,234 --> 00:42:04,714
Speaker 3: And also that I would love to know more of

884
00:42:04,914 --> 00:42:07,714
Speaker 3: the question to ask is does he have that big

885
00:42:07,834 --> 00:42:10,954
Speaker 3: job because he loves it and he wants to achieve

886
00:42:11,034 --> 00:42:14,034
Speaker 3: this career goal because it's personally important to him, or

887
00:42:14,154 --> 00:42:17,953
Speaker 3: is this something that they've agreed financially is required for them?

888
00:42:17,994 --> 00:42:21,433
Speaker 3: Because there are different motivations for making these sacrifices, and

889
00:42:21,474 --> 00:42:23,834
Speaker 3: I think interrogating those could be useful.

890
00:42:23,874 --> 00:42:25,954
Speaker 1: But look, Vanessa, thank you so much.

891
00:42:26,474 --> 00:42:29,794
Speaker 3: It was very generous of you to share your experience

892
00:42:29,874 --> 00:42:32,594
Speaker 3: with us like that, and I hope you found these

893
00:42:32,634 --> 00:42:34,754
Speaker 3: different perspectives helpful.

894
00:42:35,354 --> 00:42:36,154
Speaker 5: After the break.

895
00:42:36,234 --> 00:42:39,794
Speaker 4: It's not laziness, it's fark And no, that isn't a

896
00:42:39,834 --> 00:42:42,393
Speaker 4: swear word. It's a very important acronym that we all

897
00:42:42,434 --> 00:42:54,274
Speaker 4: need to learn. Are you suffering from fark. Apparently FARK,

898
00:42:54,354 --> 00:42:57,474
Speaker 4: which is an acronym, is the new condition that is

899
00:42:57,554 --> 00:43:01,154
Speaker 4: hitting the workplace and where we're listening. I love a

900
00:43:01,194 --> 00:43:03,234
Speaker 4: new workplace condition because I just know I've got it.

901
00:43:03,754 --> 00:43:09,034
Speaker 4: So it stands for post holiday acute aggravated rebound condition.

902
00:43:09,554 --> 00:43:16,034
Speaker 4: So phr C such nonsense or fuck. This came from

903
00:43:16,074 --> 00:43:19,314
Speaker 4: a survey which found that forty three percent of the

904
00:43:19,354 --> 00:43:24,234
Speaker 4: workforce is feeling farked while trying to bounce back from

905
00:43:24,234 --> 00:43:28,034
Speaker 4: their holiday break. So basically, we're not thriving. A lot

906
00:43:28,074 --> 00:43:30,954
Speaker 4: of us are not thriving. We're feeling tired and weird.

907
00:43:31,594 --> 00:43:32,834
Speaker 4: Mercury is going into.

908
00:43:32,714 --> 00:43:36,114
Speaker 1: Its retrogration, going into its retrograd.

909
00:43:35,714 --> 00:43:38,634
Speaker 5: Yeah, and we've got our fire horse, fast horse.

910
00:43:38,394 --> 00:43:41,434
Speaker 2: Fire horse. We've got our fire fire horse, fire horses.

911
00:43:41,474 --> 00:43:42,354
Speaker 2: But that's a good thing.

912
00:43:42,794 --> 00:43:44,994
Speaker 5: That's a good propelling energy. It's a lot.

913
00:43:45,474 --> 00:43:47,794
Speaker 4: I just feel like it's all a lot right now.

914
00:43:48,274 --> 00:43:50,314
Speaker 4: And what hope do any of us have? So Mom

915
00:43:50,314 --> 00:43:54,274
Speaker 4: and me as anale, Todd spoke to psychiatrist doctor Kieran Kennedy,

916
00:43:54,394 --> 00:43:55,794
Speaker 4: who said, our brains.

917
00:43:55,434 --> 00:43:56,594
Speaker 1: Do not like this transition.

918
00:43:56,754 --> 00:43:59,274
Speaker 4: They do not like going from holiday mode to all

919
00:43:59,354 --> 00:44:03,074
Speaker 4: the mental demands of routines, of deadlines, of decision making.

920
00:44:03,914 --> 00:44:07,274
Speaker 4: He has some advice that I refuse to repeat about

921
00:44:07,274 --> 00:44:08,674
Speaker 4: sleep and healthy mills.

922
00:44:09,034 --> 00:44:11,914
Speaker 1: Probably lifting weights and protein.

923
00:44:12,874 --> 00:44:16,554
Speaker 4: Protein, and I went, I've I've heard enough from it.

924
00:44:16,634 --> 00:44:19,473
Speaker 5: But Holly, does this ring true? Are you farked at

925
00:44:19,474 --> 00:44:19,794
Speaker 5: the moment?

926
00:44:19,874 --> 00:44:22,393
Speaker 2: I am fucked? And I think it does, because I

927
00:44:22,434 --> 00:44:24,634
Speaker 2: do think you come back after a holiday and for

928
00:44:24,714 --> 00:44:27,754
Speaker 2: many people that's you know, January, and you're like, yes,

929
00:44:27,914 --> 00:44:30,074
Speaker 2: this is great. By the end of February, like how

930
00:44:30,114 --> 00:44:32,594
Speaker 2: am I here again? But have you noticed that? We

931
00:44:32,754 --> 00:44:37,354
Speaker 2: just keep finding different reasons why we're all back all

932
00:44:37,394 --> 00:44:39,873
Speaker 2: the time. But there's like the midyear slump and then

933
00:44:39,914 --> 00:44:43,393
Speaker 2: there's the crawl to Christmas and the far it's like

934
00:44:43,674 --> 00:44:46,834
Speaker 2: there'll probably be something chocolate related for Easter. There's there's

935
00:44:46,914 --> 00:44:48,954
Speaker 2: always a reason why.

936
00:44:48,794 --> 00:44:54,674
Speaker 3: We could call it peede post Easter energy that she's amazing.

937
00:44:54,754 --> 00:44:57,474
Speaker 2: I think I'll get and I feel like maybe we

938
00:44:57,514 --> 00:45:00,474
Speaker 2: should just admit that our lives are a little.

939
00:45:01,994 --> 00:45:05,154
Speaker 3: I just feel like I'm farked every Monday morning. Like

940
00:45:05,194 --> 00:45:08,314
Speaker 3: the weird is not that the weekend is especially rest

941
00:45:08,354 --> 00:45:10,234
Speaker 3: for most of the time, but Monday is hard.

942
00:45:10,434 --> 00:45:12,434
Speaker 5: Monday is hard because I feel like you've never slept

943
00:45:12,474 --> 00:45:14,954
Speaker 5: well on a Sunday. I've never slept well on a Sunday.

944
00:45:15,674 --> 00:45:18,154
Speaker 4: You're overwhelmed by the demands of it. You're shitty because

945
00:45:18,154 --> 00:45:21,513
Speaker 4: it's only Monday. Like I feel my mood and it's

946
00:45:21,554 --> 00:45:24,194
Speaker 4: like all these you know, symptoms that come with fuck.

947
00:45:24,274 --> 00:45:25,994
Speaker 4: By the way, this is not in the in the

948
00:45:26,034 --> 00:45:30,154
Speaker 4: literat chart, it's not been study. Yeah, but you know

949
00:45:30,314 --> 00:45:34,034
Speaker 4: you're irritable, you're fatigued. I like how it's like appetite

950
00:45:34,114 --> 00:45:38,274
Speaker 4: change told us that, yeah, exactly right, and we're just

951
00:45:38,474 --> 00:45:39,874
Speaker 4: feeling very, very out of sorts.

952
00:45:39,914 --> 00:45:41,274
Speaker 5: But I reckon this.

953
00:45:41,354 --> 00:45:46,114
Speaker 4: Year, I've definitely felt it that we had this break

954
00:45:46,714 --> 00:45:48,993
Speaker 4: and then you come back. I never feel rested after

955
00:45:49,074 --> 00:45:51,994
Speaker 4: holiday because I feel like I did it wrong. And

956
00:45:52,034 --> 00:45:54,834
Speaker 4: then you try and get back on top of it,

957
00:45:54,874 --> 00:45:57,714
Speaker 4: but you can't quite get right into the rhythm. You've

958
00:45:57,714 --> 00:45:59,594
Speaker 4: got sleep issues, You've got all of that.

959
00:45:59,954 --> 00:46:02,114
Speaker 2: I do have some very practical advice for people who

960
00:46:02,154 --> 00:46:04,474
Speaker 2: can do this right. Yeah, and people, if you are

961
00:46:04,474 --> 00:46:06,274
Speaker 2: a parent and you have children who are not yet

962
00:46:06,314 --> 00:46:08,634
Speaker 2: old enough to go to sk all, the first week

963
00:46:08,634 --> 00:46:11,354
Speaker 2: of February or last week of February, great time for

964
00:46:12,074 --> 00:46:15,274
Speaker 2: great time for holiday, like take a short break over

965
00:46:15,314 --> 00:46:17,674
Speaker 2: the Christmas time because it's all a bit chill then

966
00:46:17,714 --> 00:46:20,714
Speaker 2: anyway for a lot of people, and then you let

967
00:46:20,834 --> 00:46:23,274
Speaker 2: all the mayhem and the school people go. It's interesting

968
00:46:23,314 --> 00:46:26,033
Speaker 2: because I live in a bit of a holiday destination and.

969
00:46:25,954 --> 00:46:28,154
Speaker 5: I've watched a mass couple went on a honey Oh

970
00:46:28,154 --> 00:46:28,433
Speaker 5: my god.

971
00:46:28,434 --> 00:46:31,634
Speaker 2: I saw the way on Saturday. I was like, oh

972
00:46:31,674 --> 00:46:33,953
Speaker 2: my god, I could be on mask. But I live

973
00:46:33,994 --> 00:46:37,474
Speaker 2: in a holiday destination, and you see the shift fold

974
00:46:37,514 --> 00:46:40,314
Speaker 2: over of like January, all the campgrounds are full of

975
00:46:40,354 --> 00:46:42,553
Speaker 2: all these families and it's all Mayhem, and now it's

976
00:46:42,594 --> 00:46:45,354
Speaker 2: just the clever people who don't yet have to adhere

977
00:46:45,394 --> 00:46:48,514
Speaker 2: to school holidays, having lovely, relaxing.

978
00:46:48,034 --> 00:46:52,433
Speaker 3: Little holidays and Jessey, you are about to go on

979
00:46:52,474 --> 00:46:54,234
Speaker 3: a long holiday holiday.

980
00:46:55,914 --> 00:46:57,114
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.

981
00:46:57,354 --> 00:46:57,914
Speaker 1: I was going to.

982
00:46:58,834 --> 00:47:02,514
Speaker 4: My life hack is come back in jam and then

983
00:47:02,554 --> 00:47:04,553
Speaker 4: by the end of fab you're just going by, guys,

984
00:47:04,554 --> 00:47:07,554
Speaker 4: I'm going to have a I'm going to go otherwise

985
00:47:07,594 --> 00:47:11,674
Speaker 4: known as a long holiday long could even have a

986
00:47:11,714 --> 00:47:12,674
Speaker 4: few weeks before they.

987
00:47:12,594 --> 00:47:14,754
Speaker 2: Can't people stop saying, you know, people used to say

988
00:47:14,794 --> 00:47:16,274
Speaker 2: maybe they need to do it first, baby, where you

989
00:47:16,314 --> 00:47:17,834
Speaker 2: say I'm going on mat living like, Oh, what are

990
00:47:17,834 --> 00:47:19,794
Speaker 2: you going to do? I write a book to a

991
00:47:19,874 --> 00:47:21,794
Speaker 2: thesis like what are you going to do? Little language?

992
00:47:21,874 --> 00:47:22,314
Speaker 6: You like.

993
00:47:25,634 --> 00:47:28,674
Speaker 1: Breaking out haveling?

994
00:47:28,914 --> 00:47:30,154
Speaker 5: Yet not yet?

995
00:47:30,234 --> 00:47:32,674
Speaker 4: That will definitely, But don't you think I don't have

996
00:47:32,714 --> 00:47:36,354
Speaker 4: some projects that I'm like, Oh, make a craft box

997
00:47:36,434 --> 00:47:36,994
Speaker 4: with lunar.

998
00:47:39,674 --> 00:47:39,994
Speaker 3: Fuck.

999
00:47:42,754 --> 00:47:44,873
Speaker 2: That is all we have time for on this Wednesday,

1000
00:47:44,954 --> 00:47:47,433
Speaker 2: our wonderful out louders, thank you for being with us

1001
00:47:47,474 --> 00:47:50,034
Speaker 2: as always, and thanks to our incredible team for helping

1002
00:47:50,074 --> 00:48:00,794
Speaker 2: us put the show together. What else tomorrow's Tomorrow's O.

1003
00:48:01,034 --> 00:48:03,394
Speaker 2: Could I just do a little quick rave about yesterday's

1004
00:48:03,394 --> 00:48:07,953
Speaker 2: subscriber episode because our friend of Melia Lester, I said

1005
00:48:07,994 --> 00:48:09,913
Speaker 2: to Amelia, I want to hear you and me are

1006
00:48:09,954 --> 00:48:16,194
Speaker 2: talking about the Carolynbersett Jonathan f Ken and they you

1007
00:48:16,234 --> 00:48:19,234
Speaker 2: were like, don't worry, darling, that has occurred to us already.

1008
00:48:19,474 --> 00:48:23,234
Speaker 2: So I'm watching Love Story, that show that's about JFK Jr.

1009
00:48:23,314 --> 00:48:26,834
Speaker 2: And Carolenbersett. But my friends Amelia and Mia are obsessed

1010
00:48:26,954 --> 00:48:30,553
Speaker 2: with Carolenbersett. They always have been, and so they sat

1011
00:48:30,594 --> 00:48:32,714
Speaker 2: down for this conversation and I listened to it as

1012
00:48:32,754 --> 00:48:33,274
Speaker 2: soon as.

1013
00:48:33,234 --> 00:48:35,034
Speaker 5: I watch on my holiday.

1014
00:48:35,154 --> 00:48:38,914
Speaker 2: Yes, look, it's fun okay, it's quite fun. But listening

1015
00:48:38,914 --> 00:48:41,433
Speaker 2: to you too, it's always listening to people who are

1016
00:48:41,434 --> 00:48:44,114
Speaker 2: really into something talk about it. It's so infectious. It's

1017
00:48:44,114 --> 00:48:47,234
Speaker 2: a great episode. Listen to listen to Amelia and Mia

1018
00:48:47,314 --> 00:48:52,674
Speaker 2: on yesterday's subscriber episode about we just call CBK these days.

1019
00:48:52,714 --> 00:48:54,873
Speaker 2: I don't know that, but apparently we just call a

1020
00:48:54,954 --> 00:48:58,554
Speaker 2: CBK now And like her clothes and the love story

1021
00:48:58,634 --> 00:49:00,554
Speaker 2: and did it. I loved it. We'll be back in

1022
00:49:00,594 --> 00:49:01,514
Speaker 2: your ears tomorrow.

1023
00:49:01,874 --> 00:49:02,314
Speaker 5: Bye.

1024
00:49:07,474 --> 00:49:07,714
Speaker 2: MoMA.

1025
00:49:07,794 --> 00:49:10,754
Speaker 4: Mare acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which

1026
00:49:10,754 --> 00:49:12,234
Speaker 4: we have recorded this podcast.