1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:14,262 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mea podcast. 2 00:00:14,982 --> 00:00:18,502 Speaker 2: Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters. 3 00:00:18,662 --> 00:00:21,142 Speaker 2: This podcast was recorded on Hi. 4 00:00:21,302 --> 00:00:24,302 Speaker 3: It's Jemmy Here. I'm bringing back an episode re released 5 00:00:24,342 --> 00:00:28,062 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three about the Gabby Petito case. A 6 00:00:28,062 --> 00:00:31,862 Speaker 3: new Netflix documentary series called American Murder Gabby Patito was 7 00:00:31,902 --> 00:00:36,342 Speaker 3: recently released, re examining the final days of Potito's life 8 00:00:36,382 --> 00:00:40,062 Speaker 3: and her relationship with Brian Laundry. Gabby was a twenty 9 00:00:40,062 --> 00:00:42,462 Speaker 3: two year old travel vlogger who went on a road 10 00:00:42,462 --> 00:00:46,182 Speaker 3: trip with her fiance Brian in twenty twenty one. She 11 00:00:46,262 --> 00:00:49,462 Speaker 3: was reported missing on September eleven, after her family lost 12 00:00:49,462 --> 00:00:53,182 Speaker 3: contact and learned that Brian had actually returned to Florida 13 00:00:53,222 --> 00:00:57,342 Speaker 3: alone with her van. Gabby's body was later found and 14 00:00:57,422 --> 00:01:02,102 Speaker 3: Brian became the main suspect. I spoke with Sarah Arbo, 15 00:01:02,302 --> 00:01:05,302 Speaker 3: now co host of Today and a Sixty Minutes reporter 16 00:01:05,542 --> 00:01:09,262 Speaker 3: about the case. Since our original episode aired, there have 17 00:01:09,382 --> 00:01:13,822 Speaker 3: been some key developments. In November twenty twenty three, the 18 00:01:13,902 --> 00:01:17,862 Speaker 3: Gabby Potito Act was introduced to improve law enforcement responses 19 00:01:17,902 --> 00:01:22,302 Speaker 3: to domestic violence. In December of that year, court documents 20 00:01:22,342 --> 00:01:26,942 Speaker 3: revealed Brian Laundry's parents and attorney knew about Gabby's death 21 00:01:27,062 --> 00:01:31,982 Speaker 3: and withheld information, and in February twenty twenty four, the 22 00:01:32,022 --> 00:01:35,702 Speaker 3: Potito and Laundry families settled a civil lawsuit, keeping the 23 00:01:35,782 --> 00:01:41,462 Speaker 3: details confidential. This case shocked the nation in twenty twenty one. 24 00:01:41,582 --> 00:01:44,542 Speaker 3: It was one of the most major news stories at 25 00:01:44,542 --> 00:01:47,862 Speaker 3: the time, and if you're watching the series, you'll be 26 00:01:47,902 --> 00:01:48,942 Speaker 3: interested in this story. 27 00:01:49,902 --> 00:01:53,742 Speaker 4: This episode of True Crime Conversations discusses themes of domestic 28 00:01:53,822 --> 00:02:05,502 Speaker 4: violence and suicide. Listener discretion is advised. It's the twelfth 29 00:02:05,502 --> 00:02:10,662 Speaker 4: of August twenty twenty one in the town of moab Utah. 30 00:02:11,142 --> 00:02:14,182 Speaker 4: A passerby has just seen a young couple in a 31 00:02:14,222 --> 00:02:17,902 Speaker 4: fight on the side of the road. He drives past them, 32 00:02:18,182 --> 00:02:22,182 Speaker 4: but there's something disturbing about the scene he's just witnessed, 33 00:02:23,142 --> 00:02:26,622 Speaker 4: so he picks up the phone and dials nine to 34 00:02:26,622 --> 00:02:27,342 Speaker 4: one one. 35 00:02:27,582 --> 00:02:30,062 Speaker 5: Hi, I'm calling. I'm right on the corner of Main 36 00:02:30,102 --> 00:02:34,902 Speaker 5: Street by Moonflower and we're driving by, and I'd like 37 00:02:34,902 --> 00:02:36,342 Speaker 5: to report a domestic dispute. 38 00:02:36,542 --> 00:02:37,422 Speaker 6: What were they doing? 39 00:02:38,062 --> 00:02:40,222 Speaker 5: We drove by him, A gentleman was slapping the girl 40 00:02:40,662 --> 00:02:43,782 Speaker 5: who was slapping her yes, and then we stopped, they 41 00:02:43,862 --> 00:02:46,542 Speaker 5: ran up and down the sidewalk. He proceeded to hit her, 42 00:02:46,782 --> 00:02:49,022 Speaker 5: popped in the car, and they drove off. 43 00:02:54,742 --> 00:02:59,382 Speaker 4: Moab Police Department respond to the incident that day, locating 44 00:02:59,382 --> 00:03:03,302 Speaker 4: the van in question near the entrance to Archers National Park. 45 00:03:03,862 --> 00:03:07,982 Speaker 4: The vehicle is owned by twenty two year old Gabby Petito, 46 00:03:08,102 --> 00:03:11,342 Speaker 4: a young woman on the holiday of a lifetime with 47 00:03:11,422 --> 00:03:16,622 Speaker 4: her fiance, Brian Laundry. The pair are six weeks into 48 00:03:16,662 --> 00:03:20,142 Speaker 4: a four month cross country trip of the United States 49 00:03:20,422 --> 00:03:23,582 Speaker 4: as they journey through some of the country's most beautiful 50 00:03:23,622 --> 00:03:27,782 Speaker 4: wilderness sites. They've been living in Gabby's specially decked out 51 00:03:27,902 --> 00:03:34,182 Speaker 4: van with dreams of becoming a travel influencer. She's been documenting, filming, 52 00:03:34,302 --> 00:03:37,862 Speaker 4: and posting about every adventure they've shared so far. 53 00:03:38,702 --> 00:03:42,062 Speaker 7: Me and brain scat up and got ready. Me in 54 00:03:42,142 --> 00:03:46,262 Speaker 7: the bed in the tent. I think our plan for 55 00:03:46,502 --> 00:03:51,102 Speaker 7: today is to just hang out here in the tent. 56 00:03:51,822 --> 00:03:54,222 Speaker 7: All the chocolate mountains. 57 00:03:54,862 --> 00:03:55,342 Speaker 3: Chocolate. 58 00:03:55,862 --> 00:03:59,462 Speaker 7: You can't keep chocolate in Utah, not in July. 59 00:04:02,262 --> 00:04:02,502 Speaker 8: That is. 60 00:04:04,902 --> 00:04:08,022 Speaker 4: But the police call tells a different story to the 61 00:04:08,062 --> 00:04:12,702 Speaker 4: one of joy and wonderlust On's YouTube and Instagram On 62 00:04:12,742 --> 00:04:16,982 Speaker 4: that August day in Utah, police discover a young woman 63 00:04:17,342 --> 00:04:23,302 Speaker 4: in distress, cheeks pink from being grabbed and slapped. She's crying, 64 00:04:23,862 --> 00:04:28,182 Speaker 4: almost to the point of hyperventilation. The twenty two year 65 00:04:28,182 --> 00:04:32,222 Speaker 4: old makes excuses as she downplays what's happened between her 66 00:04:32,382 --> 00:04:36,302 Speaker 4: and Brian. She places the blame on herself. 67 00:04:36,422 --> 00:04:38,862 Speaker 9: Is there something on your cheek here? Did you get 68 00:04:38,942 --> 00:04:39,542 Speaker 9: hit in the face? 69 00:04:40,982 --> 00:04:41,902 Speaker 7: Then over on your arm? 70 00:04:42,422 --> 00:04:42,902 Speaker 9: Your shoulder? 71 00:04:45,262 --> 00:04:45,942 Speaker 2: So there's two. 72 00:04:45,822 --> 00:04:47,422 Speaker 9: People that came to us and told us that they 73 00:04:47,422 --> 00:04:53,262 Speaker 9: saw him hit you. Where'd you hit him? I sat 74 00:04:54,502 --> 00:04:58,622 Speaker 9: he slapped him first and saw his face? How many 75 00:04:58,662 --> 00:04:59,342 Speaker 9: times did you slap? 76 00:05:01,702 --> 00:05:02,262 Speaker 8: Did he hit you? 77 00:05:02,262 --> 00:05:03,582 Speaker 9: Though? I mean, we want to know the truth to 78 00:05:03,662 --> 00:05:08,862 Speaker 9: be actually hit you, because you guess where did he 79 00:05:08,942 --> 00:05:09,222 Speaker 9: hit you? 80 00:05:10,022 --> 00:05:14,502 Speaker 4: Brian Laundry is interviewed on the roadside separately. He jokes 81 00:05:14,542 --> 00:05:19,022 Speaker 4: around with police charms them into believing there's no danger here, 82 00:05:19,622 --> 00:05:24,502 Speaker 4: convincing them that Gabby, his much shorter, narrow framed girlfriend, 83 00:05:24,822 --> 00:05:27,142 Speaker 4: is the real aggressor in this situation. 84 00:05:27,822 --> 00:05:29,422 Speaker 7: You might lifting up your right sleep for me. 85 00:05:29,462 --> 00:05:32,582 Speaker 9: I'm curious mess on, but I'm not complaining. I'm not 86 00:05:32,662 --> 00:05:34,702 Speaker 9: a plan that is it a cruised or tender or. 87 00:05:34,662 --> 00:05:35,222 Speaker 4: Anything like that. 88 00:05:36,262 --> 00:05:43,702 Speaker 8: I'm fine, Gabby Potito is exhibiting what the whole world 89 00:05:43,782 --> 00:05:47,742 Speaker 8: would come to see as the chillingly obvious red flags. 90 00:05:47,382 --> 00:05:51,742 Speaker 4: Of a victim of domestic violence, signs that were sadly 91 00:05:51,822 --> 00:05:55,582 Speaker 4: missed by the responding officers. They do little to intervene 92 00:05:55,622 --> 00:05:59,422 Speaker 4: that day, and after a night apart, Gabby and Brian 93 00:05:59,582 --> 00:06:03,502 Speaker 4: continue on their travels. But less than a month after 94 00:06:03,542 --> 00:06:08,902 Speaker 4: the incident in Moab, Gabby's family begin to fear the worst. 95 00:06:09,462 --> 00:06:14,622 Speaker 4: By the time she's missing, Gabby Petito is already dead. 96 00:06:20,942 --> 00:06:25,142 Speaker 4: I'm Emma Gillespie and this is True Crime Conversations a 97 00:06:25,222 --> 00:06:29,742 Speaker 4: Muma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by 98 00:06:29,782 --> 00:06:32,222 Speaker 4: speaking to the people who know the most about them. 99 00:06:33,262 --> 00:06:37,222 Speaker 4: In twenty twenty one, Gabby Petito became a household name. 100 00:06:37,982 --> 00:06:42,342 Speaker 4: It was her lifelong wish, but the circumstances surrounding her 101 00:06:42,382 --> 00:06:45,662 Speaker 4: notoriety were a far cry from the hopes and dreams 102 00:06:45,702 --> 00:06:50,022 Speaker 4: of a budding YouTuber. After Gabby and her van vanished 103 00:06:50,182 --> 00:06:54,422 Speaker 4: mid cross country trip, her high profile disappearance sparked an 104 00:06:54,542 --> 00:07:00,742 Speaker 4: unprecedented social media movement to find her, an unstoppable onslaught 105 00:07:00,782 --> 00:07:05,102 Speaker 4: of amateur sleuths and armchair detectives exposed a story no 106 00:07:05,182 --> 00:07:09,222 Speaker 4: one was prepared to ignore. As the world hung on 107 00:07:09,422 --> 00:07:13,902 Speaker 4: each development in the nationwide search for Gabby, her fiance, 108 00:07:15,022 --> 00:07:19,342 Speaker 4: and the truth. Our guest Today, co host of Channel 109 00:07:19,422 --> 00:07:23,262 Speaker 4: nine's The Today Show and journalist Sarah Arbo covered this 110 00:07:23,422 --> 00:07:29,862 Speaker 4: case extensively for sixty minutes. She spoke to investigators, criminal profilers, 111 00:07:29,982 --> 00:07:36,942 Speaker 4: and exclusively interviewed Gabby's parents. Sarah joins me, today, I 112 00:07:37,062 --> 00:07:40,622 Speaker 4: want to start with Gabby. You've spoken at length with 113 00:07:40,702 --> 00:07:44,222 Speaker 4: her parents. What was she like? How do they describe 114 00:07:44,342 --> 00:07:45,782 Speaker 4: the kind of person she was? 115 00:07:46,462 --> 00:07:49,182 Speaker 6: Yeah, it was such an incredible honor and privilege to 116 00:07:49,182 --> 00:07:51,302 Speaker 6: be able to interview her parents. She's from a beautiful, 117 00:07:51,342 --> 00:07:54,302 Speaker 6: blended family and they are so harmonious. 118 00:07:54,422 --> 00:07:57,022 Speaker 2: So her parents split when she was quite young. 119 00:07:57,022 --> 00:07:59,862 Speaker 6: They had her quite young, Nicole her mother, Joseph her father, 120 00:08:00,382 --> 00:08:03,742 Speaker 6: and have since repartnered and sort of had their separate relationships, 121 00:08:03,742 --> 00:08:07,262 Speaker 6: but maintained a really close relationship as a family, and 122 00:08:07,342 --> 00:08:09,222 Speaker 6: so speaking to each of them to get their insight, 123 00:08:09,262 --> 00:08:12,862 Speaker 6: and even from her stepparents as well. To them, Gabby 124 00:08:13,022 --> 00:08:14,742 Speaker 6: was just sort of the light of their lives. I 125 00:08:14,742 --> 00:08:17,102 Speaker 6: think her mum described her as a spitfire, like just 126 00:08:17,222 --> 00:08:20,302 Speaker 6: had a real energy or real zestful life. Her dad 127 00:08:20,342 --> 00:08:22,382 Speaker 6: Joe would often talk about how, you know, even in 128 00:08:22,382 --> 00:08:24,542 Speaker 6: those early days, like as a child, she was always 129 00:08:24,902 --> 00:08:27,462 Speaker 6: bringing people along for the journey. She wanted everyone to 130 00:08:27,542 --> 00:08:30,422 Speaker 6: experience the best of life. She was adventurous, she was 131 00:08:30,462 --> 00:08:33,902 Speaker 6: always daring, She was always the one up for the challenge, 132 00:08:33,982 --> 00:08:36,342 Speaker 6: and she would always encourage people to come along with her. 133 00:08:36,542 --> 00:08:39,662 Speaker 6: So from all accounts, according to her family, at least 134 00:08:39,702 --> 00:08:41,702 Speaker 6: that you know, she was a really generous soul and 135 00:08:41,742 --> 00:08:45,542 Speaker 6: somebody who just enjoyed life and the beauty that's on offer. 136 00:08:46,622 --> 00:08:49,102 Speaker 1: How did she meet Brian Laundry? How did he come 137 00:08:49,102 --> 00:08:49,902 Speaker 1: into her life? 138 00:08:50,102 --> 00:08:52,262 Speaker 6: Yeah, so her and Brian went to school together actually, 139 00:08:52,262 --> 00:08:55,742 Speaker 6: so they knew each other as teenagers and then I 140 00:08:55,782 --> 00:08:58,222 Speaker 6: think they were friends that had similar friendship group. But 141 00:08:58,262 --> 00:09:01,102 Speaker 6: it wasn't until later in life or just after leaving 142 00:09:01,102 --> 00:09:03,942 Speaker 6: school in twenty nineteen, when they became a couple. And 143 00:09:03,982 --> 00:09:06,542 Speaker 6: I think because probably they had that sort of friendship history, 144 00:09:06,742 --> 00:09:09,222 Speaker 6: their relationship escalated. I mean in twenty nineteen, that's not 145 00:09:09,222 --> 00:09:11,222 Speaker 6: so long ago, right, And so then they engaged pretty 146 00:09:11,302 --> 00:09:13,262 Speaker 6: quickly and then set off on this road trip together. 147 00:09:13,862 --> 00:09:17,742 Speaker 6: So again speaking with her parents about their take on 148 00:09:17,822 --> 00:09:20,422 Speaker 6: Brian and what he was like, and particularly in the 149 00:09:20,502 --> 00:09:23,142 Speaker 6: early stages of their relationship. I mean, her parents were 150 00:09:23,222 --> 00:09:25,262 Speaker 6: just like, you know, he seemed fine, He seemed normal, 151 00:09:25,302 --> 00:09:27,622 Speaker 6: He was always nice. So yeah, for them, there didn't 152 00:09:27,662 --> 00:09:30,582 Speaker 6: seem to be any sign of anything more sinister in 153 00:09:30,622 --> 00:09:33,022 Speaker 6: that relationship or from him at all. They just described 154 00:09:33,062 --> 00:09:34,142 Speaker 6: him as kind of a nice guy. 155 00:09:35,262 --> 00:09:37,702 Speaker 4: What do we know about their relationship in the lead 156 00:09:37,782 --> 00:09:40,102 Speaker 4: up to taking this big trip? 157 00:09:40,222 --> 00:09:41,382 Speaker 1: Was it the people. 158 00:09:41,222 --> 00:09:43,262 Speaker 4: Around them, as you say, were happy for them that 159 00:09:43,342 --> 00:09:45,502 Speaker 4: he just sort of seemed like a good fit for her. 160 00:09:45,862 --> 00:09:46,502 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. 161 00:09:46,662 --> 00:09:48,822 Speaker 6: I mean, from all accounts, they were sort of both 162 00:09:48,862 --> 00:09:51,102 Speaker 6: interested in the same sorts of things, and they were 163 00:09:51,142 --> 00:09:55,102 Speaker 6: both interested in the outdoors. In adventuring this trip itself 164 00:09:55,182 --> 00:09:58,702 Speaker 6: was quite collaborative. Joe helped Gabby along to purchase the van, 165 00:09:58,822 --> 00:10:01,262 Speaker 6: but then Brian and Gabby pretty much put it together. 166 00:10:01,302 --> 00:10:01,582 Speaker 2: Really. 167 00:10:01,942 --> 00:10:03,702 Speaker 6: They decked out the van according to what they would 168 00:10:03,742 --> 00:10:05,622 Speaker 6: need for a road trip like this to live in comfort. 169 00:10:05,742 --> 00:10:08,462 Speaker 6: So they were both really invested in the journey, and 170 00:10:08,502 --> 00:10:11,142 Speaker 6: I think for them it was an opportunity a lifetime 171 00:10:11,182 --> 00:10:13,582 Speaker 6: to sort of quit their jobs and take to the world, 172 00:10:13,622 --> 00:10:15,302 Speaker 6: and it was around the time, you know, the pandemic 173 00:10:15,342 --> 00:10:16,942 Speaker 6: was sort of bubbling around too, So it was sort 174 00:10:16,942 --> 00:10:21,382 Speaker 6: of that escape from that mundane reality of lockdown, I guess. 175 00:10:21,902 --> 00:10:25,262 Speaker 4: And what was their presence on social media at that time? 176 00:10:25,542 --> 00:10:29,022 Speaker 4: What did the world see online of the Gabby Brian 177 00:10:29,302 --> 00:10:29,902 Speaker 4: love story. 178 00:10:30,022 --> 00:10:32,702 Speaker 6: Yeah, it was a very curated feed that the public 179 00:10:32,742 --> 00:10:35,142 Speaker 6: got of Gabby and Bryan's life, that's for sure. I 180 00:10:35,142 --> 00:10:40,222 Speaker 6: think Gabby always had an interest in creating a YouTube channel, 181 00:10:40,262 --> 00:10:42,142 Speaker 6: in creating a website. I don't know if we call 182 00:10:42,182 --> 00:10:44,742 Speaker 6: the blogs anymore. Let's feel so outdated, doesn't it. But 183 00:10:44,862 --> 00:10:48,142 Speaker 6: she was so keen on documenting their van life hashtag 184 00:10:48,222 --> 00:10:50,142 Speaker 6: van life, which is a big thing, particularly in the US. 185 00:10:50,422 --> 00:10:56,542 Speaker 7: Hello, hello, and good morning. It is really nice and 186 00:10:56,982 --> 00:10:57,782 Speaker 7: sunny today. 187 00:10:58,422 --> 00:11:00,342 Speaker 6: And so for her, this trip was an opportunity to 188 00:11:00,382 --> 00:11:03,942 Speaker 6: really bring the public along the ride with them, and 189 00:11:03,982 --> 00:11:07,662 Speaker 6: so she was documenting all the travels, all the experiences, 190 00:11:07,982 --> 00:11:09,742 Speaker 6: and what life was like, you know, living out of 191 00:11:09,742 --> 00:11:11,542 Speaker 6: a van. Some of the videos or as mundane as 192 00:11:11,582 --> 00:11:13,662 Speaker 6: having you know, her muslin in the morning and the 193 00:11:13,742 --> 00:11:16,342 Speaker 6: chocolate melting in it. You know, there's segments of that 194 00:11:16,342 --> 00:11:18,662 Speaker 6: that we've seen and then obviously there's that incident when 195 00:11:18,782 --> 00:11:20,702 Speaker 6: she's in the tent and it starts raining and she's 196 00:11:20,702 --> 00:11:22,182 Speaker 6: got to hold her up with her hands. 197 00:11:21,862 --> 00:11:23,782 Speaker 2: You know. So there's all these little snippets of life 198 00:11:23,822 --> 00:11:24,342 Speaker 2: on the road. 199 00:11:28,342 --> 00:11:34,422 Speaker 7: Can is coming in on we need settle Cane. 200 00:11:35,342 --> 00:11:38,342 Speaker 6: While that's how we got an initial taste of them, 201 00:11:38,542 --> 00:11:41,022 Speaker 6: it wasn't really until that bodycam footage that we got 202 00:11:41,062 --> 00:11:43,342 Speaker 6: perhaps some more accurate picture of what life was like 203 00:11:43,422 --> 00:11:44,262 Speaker 6: for them on the road. 204 00:11:45,422 --> 00:11:48,622 Speaker 4: How serious was Gabby about using this trip, you know, 205 00:11:48,702 --> 00:11:52,142 Speaker 4: not just as the adventure of a lifetime, but as 206 00:11:52,382 --> 00:11:55,782 Speaker 4: content creation, as an opportunity to sort of build this 207 00:11:55,942 --> 00:11:58,702 Speaker 4: brand that she was hoping to make a career of, 208 00:11:59,342 --> 00:12:02,902 Speaker 4: And was that at odds with what Brian thought she 209 00:12:03,062 --> 00:12:03,742 Speaker 4: was capable of. 210 00:12:04,342 --> 00:12:06,142 Speaker 6: The interesting part about that is, I think it was 211 00:12:06,182 --> 00:12:08,502 Speaker 6: both definitely, So it was as much about the adventure 212 00:12:08,542 --> 00:12:11,022 Speaker 6: as it was about curating this feed and trying to 213 00:12:11,102 --> 00:12:13,822 Speaker 6: launch herself perhaps as a travel influencer or an influencer 214 00:12:13,822 --> 00:12:15,782 Speaker 6: full stop. I think that's an element of it. I 215 00:12:15,782 --> 00:12:17,502 Speaker 6: mean we say that so often in today's world, right, 216 00:12:17,582 --> 00:12:19,382 Speaker 6: so many people have been able to make careers out 217 00:12:19,382 --> 00:12:21,782 Speaker 6: of that. I think she was trying to ride that wave. 218 00:12:22,262 --> 00:12:25,862 Speaker 6: There is also that element of actually being quite hard work. 219 00:12:26,022 --> 00:12:27,702 Speaker 6: You know, it's not just a matter of taking a 220 00:12:27,742 --> 00:12:29,422 Speaker 6: photo and posting it. You know, you've got to apply 221 00:12:29,462 --> 00:12:31,382 Speaker 6: a filter, you've got to put the backing track music 222 00:12:31,422 --> 00:12:33,702 Speaker 6: to it, You've got to perhaps narrate it, whatever else 223 00:12:33,702 --> 00:12:35,062 Speaker 6: you want to add to it to really give it 224 00:12:35,102 --> 00:12:38,382 Speaker 6: that high production value that's worthy of a YouTube, that's 225 00:12:38,422 --> 00:12:38,862 Speaker 6: worthy of. 226 00:12:38,862 --> 00:12:40,062 Speaker 2: The clicks that you're looking for. 227 00:12:40,582 --> 00:12:44,342 Speaker 6: But one sign I think we got kind of early 228 00:12:44,382 --> 00:12:48,022 Speaker 6: on that perhaps it was more difficult than either she 229 00:12:48,222 --> 00:12:51,422 Speaker 6: was expecting it to be, or maybe that it caused 230 00:12:51,422 --> 00:12:53,022 Speaker 6: a bit of a rift in their relationship was in 231 00:12:53,062 --> 00:12:55,702 Speaker 6: that body camera footage we saw Gabby say to one 232 00:12:55,742 --> 00:12:58,382 Speaker 6: of the officers who was interviewing her, he doesn't think 233 00:12:58,462 --> 00:13:02,182 Speaker 6: I can do it, referring to Brian about her website. 234 00:13:01,902 --> 00:13:06,822 Speaker 7: Trying to strowing a blog at the even building my 235 00:13:06,902 --> 00:13:12,942 Speaker 7: websites in real persons, they did do any of it, 236 00:13:13,782 --> 00:13:14,822 Speaker 7: I don't know's. 237 00:13:16,102 --> 00:13:16,382 Speaker 5: I don't know. 238 00:13:16,382 --> 00:13:20,262 Speaker 7: We've been waiting long morning and tom Men has gone down. 239 00:13:20,862 --> 00:13:25,062 Speaker 9: Yes, I become gos. 240 00:13:25,062 --> 00:13:26,902 Speaker 7: And he really is. 241 00:13:27,582 --> 00:13:29,822 Speaker 6: I mean, she was in such a hyper emotional state 242 00:13:29,862 --> 00:13:32,422 Speaker 6: at that point, and that's obviously something that was really 243 00:13:32,462 --> 00:13:36,142 Speaker 6: weighing on her and perhaps contributed to the dysfunction in 244 00:13:36,182 --> 00:13:38,382 Speaker 6: their relationship with that particular point, but I think it 245 00:13:38,422 --> 00:13:41,022 Speaker 6: was really heard just wanting this dream of creating a 246 00:13:41,062 --> 00:13:43,302 Speaker 6: YouTube channel and being a success online, and perhaps him 247 00:13:43,342 --> 00:13:46,382 Speaker 6: not believing in her the way that a supportive partner should. 248 00:13:46,742 --> 00:13:48,262 Speaker 6: So I think that was a bit of a fracture 249 00:13:48,262 --> 00:13:48,902 Speaker 6: there that we saw. 250 00:13:49,742 --> 00:13:52,062 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that moment a little bit more. 251 00:13:52,102 --> 00:13:52,182 Speaker 7: So. 252 00:13:52,262 --> 00:13:55,782 Speaker 4: We were six weeks into this trip and cracks begin 253 00:13:55,902 --> 00:14:00,182 Speaker 4: to appear. It starts with a bystander witnessing a fight. 254 00:14:01,062 --> 00:14:03,622 Speaker 4: What can you tell me about that call to police? 255 00:14:04,142 --> 00:14:07,742 Speaker 4: What was learned about that run in in Utah? 256 00:14:08,342 --> 00:14:10,222 Speaker 6: Yeah, so it did, as you really point out, start 257 00:14:10,222 --> 00:14:11,982 Speaker 6: off that nine one one call. I think it was 258 00:14:12,022 --> 00:14:14,902 Speaker 6: a gentleman who called nine one one and he had 259 00:14:15,022 --> 00:14:17,462 Speaker 6: noticed I think the transcript is something along the lines 260 00:14:17,502 --> 00:14:20,142 Speaker 6: of he slapped her and there was surprise on the 261 00:14:20,222 --> 00:14:22,062 Speaker 6: end of the receiver from the nine one one call, 262 00:14:22,182 --> 00:14:25,342 Speaker 6: and so off the back of that, the local police 263 00:14:25,382 --> 00:14:27,182 Speaker 6: were alerted and so they were on the lookout for them. 264 00:14:27,742 --> 00:14:29,822 Speaker 6: So that was the first sign that we got that 265 00:14:29,902 --> 00:14:33,342 Speaker 6: things weren't quite right. You know that perhaps this picture 266 00:14:33,382 --> 00:14:37,142 Speaker 6: perfect relationship that they were presenting to the world was 267 00:14:37,182 --> 00:14:40,302 Speaker 6: actually just a fabrication, you know, This wasn't the reality 268 00:14:40,342 --> 00:14:42,662 Speaker 6: that they were actually living. And so that nine one 269 00:14:42,742 --> 00:14:46,022 Speaker 6: one call spurred into action the police that led them 270 00:14:46,062 --> 00:14:49,742 Speaker 6: to the interrogation I guess by the police onto Brian 271 00:14:49,982 --> 00:14:53,422 Speaker 6: and Gabby separately trying to understand the picture. So that 272 00:14:53,502 --> 00:14:54,982 Speaker 6: was the first sign we saw that there may have 273 00:14:55,022 --> 00:14:58,222 Speaker 6: been domestic or family violence involved in the relationship. 274 00:14:59,382 --> 00:15:03,942 Speaker 4: Coercive control is this idea that is being spoken about 275 00:15:03,982 --> 00:15:06,262 Speaker 4: a lot more and more in the media now, something 276 00:15:06,262 --> 00:15:11,062 Speaker 4: we're becoming more comfortable with understanding talking about how did 277 00:15:11,102 --> 00:15:15,222 Speaker 4: it present in that moment potentially between Gabby and Brian. 278 00:15:15,262 --> 00:15:18,142 Speaker 4: I know you've spoken to experts and psychologists about that moment. 279 00:15:18,302 --> 00:15:20,462 Speaker 6: Yeah, we spoke to Laura Richards for our sixty minutes 280 00:15:20,502 --> 00:15:23,222 Speaker 6: piece and she's read hot on all this sort of stuff. 281 00:15:23,342 --> 00:15:25,902 Speaker 6: She's sort of a criminologist, but she specializes too in 282 00:15:26,422 --> 00:15:30,342 Speaker 6: the area of family violence. And for her, watching back 283 00:15:30,542 --> 00:15:33,982 Speaker 6: the footage captured on the bodycam of the offices, it 284 00:15:34,022 --> 00:15:35,822 Speaker 6: was for her as clear as black and white, you 285 00:15:35,822 --> 00:15:39,382 Speaker 6: know that it was a classic example of coersive control. 286 00:15:39,662 --> 00:15:41,382 Speaker 6: And she went so far as to say that it 287 00:15:41,422 --> 00:15:45,742 Speaker 6: was the officers who greenlit Brian's behavior. Essentially, when you're 288 00:15:45,782 --> 00:15:48,422 Speaker 6: watching it, you can kind of see that it's Gabby 289 00:15:48,422 --> 00:15:48,982 Speaker 6: who's in this. 290 00:15:49,862 --> 00:15:50,142 Speaker 2: You know. 291 00:15:50,262 --> 00:15:54,062 Speaker 6: It's quite awful to watch actually, because she is so emotional. 292 00:15:54,142 --> 00:15:57,622 Speaker 6: She's at her wits end. She's absolutely exhausted mentally, and 293 00:15:57,662 --> 00:16:00,582 Speaker 6: I think it's a sign that this had been running 294 00:16:00,622 --> 00:16:02,742 Speaker 6: for some time and that she had reached almost breaking 295 00:16:02,782 --> 00:16:04,702 Speaker 6: point at the time the police had pulled them over. 296 00:16:05,182 --> 00:16:07,902 Speaker 6: And what you kind of get from that bodycam footage 297 00:16:07,942 --> 00:16:11,622 Speaker 6: is the way coursive control manifested there was that she 298 00:16:11,742 --> 00:16:14,742 Speaker 6: was very defensive of him, you know, and she was like, oh, no, 299 00:16:14,862 --> 00:16:17,262 Speaker 6: I hit him first, or no, we love each other 300 00:16:17,422 --> 00:16:19,142 Speaker 6: and can you please tell him I said I love 301 00:16:19,222 --> 00:16:21,182 Speaker 6: him and by because the police had separated them at 302 00:16:21,182 --> 00:16:23,582 Speaker 6: that point, so she was doing whatever she could to 303 00:16:23,622 --> 00:16:26,702 Speaker 6: defend him, and he wasn't necessarily doing that. He was 304 00:16:26,742 --> 00:16:28,222 Speaker 6: sort of pushing back a little bit on that, trying 305 00:16:28,262 --> 00:16:30,702 Speaker 6: to be a bit more matey with the officers. And 306 00:16:31,262 --> 00:16:33,342 Speaker 6: the example of cous of control is in the fact 307 00:16:33,382 --> 00:16:35,502 Speaker 6: that we know the nine one call had been made 308 00:16:35,582 --> 00:16:38,462 Speaker 6: that there was some kind of violence between the couple, 309 00:16:38,582 --> 00:16:40,182 Speaker 6: and then the next day you see her trying to 310 00:16:40,222 --> 00:16:41,822 Speaker 6: defend him as if nothing had happened and that it 311 00:16:41,862 --> 00:16:43,982 Speaker 6: was all her fault and that she'd brought it upon herself. 312 00:16:44,542 --> 00:16:46,702 Speaker 6: It's sort of subtle, but we are becoming more aware 313 00:16:46,742 --> 00:16:48,542 Speaker 6: of it, and for those who recognize that, it was 314 00:16:48,542 --> 00:16:50,662 Speaker 6: pretty obvious in that body cam footage. 315 00:16:50,782 --> 00:16:54,342 Speaker 4: Yeah, as you mentioned, she is really distressed in that footage. 316 00:16:54,782 --> 00:16:57,822 Speaker 1: The officer decides that Gabby is. 317 00:16:58,022 --> 00:17:01,502 Speaker 4: Not at risk, refers to it as a little slap fight, 318 00:17:02,062 --> 00:17:05,462 Speaker 4: and ultimately a decision is made that Brian is the 319 00:17:05,542 --> 00:17:07,182 Speaker 4: victim in the situation. 320 00:17:07,662 --> 00:17:09,782 Speaker 9: You haven't a been striking her, she has that event 321 00:17:10,662 --> 00:17:13,422 Speaker 9: her the witness did not see you striker. So at 322 00:17:13,462 --> 00:17:15,782 Speaker 9: this point you're the victim of an elastic assault. Even 323 00:17:15,782 --> 00:17:18,382 Speaker 9: if you pay, even if you didn't want to pursue this, 324 00:17:18,862 --> 00:17:20,062 Speaker 9: we don't have a choice. 325 00:17:20,422 --> 00:17:25,902 Speaker 4: How significant was that decision, that interaction, that moment. Is 326 00:17:25,982 --> 00:17:28,702 Speaker 4: that a missed opportunity to save Gabby's life? 327 00:17:28,942 --> 00:17:31,902 Speaker 6: I think it's been widely viewed as a missed opportunity. Yes, 328 00:17:32,182 --> 00:17:36,822 Speaker 6: because even if they did see Gabby as the aggressor, 329 00:17:36,862 --> 00:17:38,702 Speaker 6: which is how it landed for them, that's how they 330 00:17:38,702 --> 00:17:42,022 Speaker 6: interpreted it. They separated them for the evening, right, so 331 00:17:42,022 --> 00:17:44,662 Speaker 6: they put Brian in a hotel room and Gabby slept 332 00:17:44,662 --> 00:17:45,502 Speaker 6: in the van alone. 333 00:17:45,582 --> 00:17:47,982 Speaker 2: I mean, even that in itself is kind of staggering. 334 00:17:48,022 --> 00:17:50,742 Speaker 4: A hotel room that, if I remember correctly, was paid 335 00:17:50,862 --> 00:17:54,902 Speaker 4: for by a taxpayer funded program for victims of DV 336 00:17:55,142 --> 00:17:55,502 Speaker 4: that's right. 337 00:17:55,542 --> 00:17:57,422 Speaker 6: And they drove him there, you know, in the comfany, 338 00:17:57,462 --> 00:17:58,982 Speaker 6: and that's part of the body cam footage towards the 339 00:17:59,062 --> 00:18:00,582 Speaker 6: end as well. They're having this jovial chat in the 340 00:18:00,622 --> 00:18:02,822 Speaker 6: backseat as if nothing had happened. He gets to have 341 00:18:02,862 --> 00:18:05,502 Speaker 6: a nice warm shower while she's stuck in the van again. 342 00:18:05,942 --> 00:18:08,062 Speaker 6: And so I think the interpretation from the cops was wrong, 343 00:18:08,102 --> 00:18:09,942 Speaker 6: but it's sort of you can almost see them trying 344 00:18:09,982 --> 00:18:12,142 Speaker 6: to d sclate the situation. You know, there's a point 345 00:18:12,142 --> 00:18:13,942 Speaker 6: in there where while I'm sitting in the car and 346 00:18:13,982 --> 00:18:15,982 Speaker 6: he calls a superior and he says, you know, as 347 00:18:15,982 --> 00:18:18,702 Speaker 6: you rightly point out, this is just a slap fight 348 00:18:18,742 --> 00:18:21,422 Speaker 6: between a couple who otherwise love each other. So there 349 00:18:21,462 --> 00:18:23,702 Speaker 6: was a sort of missed opportunity then recognizing that this 350 00:18:23,822 --> 00:18:25,182 Speaker 6: may have been a bit more than that, and it 351 00:18:25,262 --> 00:18:28,022 Speaker 6: ultimately was more than that if at that point they 352 00:18:28,062 --> 00:18:30,382 Speaker 6: had separated them properly, if they had reported them, even 353 00:18:30,422 --> 00:18:33,462 Speaker 6: if it was wrong, and they reported Gabby at the 354 00:18:33,582 --> 00:18:38,502 Speaker 6: very least despite them getting the aggressor wrong, there still 355 00:18:38,502 --> 00:18:40,342 Speaker 6: would have been a report and they would have been 356 00:18:40,342 --> 00:18:42,342 Speaker 6: separated for a longer period. It would have gone to 357 00:18:42,582 --> 00:18:44,902 Speaker 6: a lower court, and it would have been handled, you know, 358 00:18:45,022 --> 00:18:47,182 Speaker 6: according to the statute of that US state. And so 359 00:18:47,622 --> 00:18:50,142 Speaker 6: the issue then becomes why didn't they get referred. They 360 00:18:50,182 --> 00:18:52,262 Speaker 6: wanted to de escalate it. They thought the officers thought 361 00:18:52,262 --> 00:18:54,502 Speaker 6: they were doing the right thing by not dragging the 362 00:18:54,542 --> 00:18:57,862 Speaker 6: couple through that process. But ultimately if they had, then 363 00:18:57,902 --> 00:19:00,182 Speaker 6: we may have had a very different outcome and Gabby 364 00:19:00,182 --> 00:19:03,422 Speaker 6: could still be alive today. What that incident also raised 365 00:19:03,422 --> 00:19:05,622 Speaker 6: when the officers pulled them over, that also raised a 366 00:19:05,622 --> 00:19:07,862 Speaker 6: lot of questions about the training of officers and how 367 00:19:07,862 --> 00:19:09,782 Speaker 6: well equipped they are to deal with domestic violence. Now 368 00:19:09,782 --> 00:19:11,422 Speaker 6: we know in Utah they had received quite a bit 369 00:19:11,422 --> 00:19:13,902 Speaker 6: of training, and so it was perhaps an error in 370 00:19:14,102 --> 00:19:17,262 Speaker 6: interpretation of that. And I guess that on a broader scale, 371 00:19:17,262 --> 00:19:18,982 Speaker 6: you know, you take Gabby and Brian out of the mix. 372 00:19:19,022 --> 00:19:20,782 Speaker 6: It's something that we can all learn from, is really 373 00:19:20,822 --> 00:19:24,182 Speaker 6: understanding domestic violence in all its different nuances and contexts, 374 00:19:24,422 --> 00:19:26,422 Speaker 6: and especially when it comes to course of control, because 375 00:19:26,462 --> 00:19:28,702 Speaker 6: something like that can be so subliminal, it can be 376 00:19:28,742 --> 00:19:31,742 Speaker 6: such an undercurrent in a relationship that isn't necessarily recognized. 377 00:19:31,742 --> 00:19:35,262 Speaker 6: So I think it's something that in hindsight, that officers 378 00:19:35,342 --> 00:19:38,182 Speaker 6: and law enforcement generally across the US and the world 379 00:19:38,422 --> 00:19:40,982 Speaker 6: will be more aware of. And if that's at least 380 00:19:41,062 --> 00:19:43,022 Speaker 6: a single lesson we can take away from this, then 381 00:19:43,142 --> 00:19:44,902 Speaker 6: I know for sure that the Potato family would be 382 00:19:44,902 --> 00:19:47,142 Speaker 6: greatly relieved if that was a lesson. 383 00:19:48,142 --> 00:19:51,302 Speaker 4: There was a couple a short time later who crossed 384 00:19:51,342 --> 00:19:55,062 Speaker 4: paths with Gabby and Brian, and you've spoken to them. 385 00:19:55,342 --> 00:19:56,382 Speaker 1: What did they tell you? 386 00:19:57,382 --> 00:19:59,262 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's interesting because we spoke to them and that 387 00:19:59,302 --> 00:20:04,342 Speaker 6: were likely, we suspect, the last people to see Gabby alive. 388 00:20:04,822 --> 00:20:07,942 Speaker 6: So that was at a restaurant, a Mexican restaurant in Wyoming, 389 00:20:08,422 --> 00:20:11,902 Speaker 6: and they noticed a sort of of an unhappy couple, 390 00:20:11,982 --> 00:20:14,262 Speaker 6: you know. I think the way it was described was 391 00:20:14,302 --> 00:20:16,582 Speaker 6: that Gabby was at her wits end. So that was 392 00:20:16,622 --> 00:20:19,462 Speaker 6: Matt and Nina and they Nina in particular said that 393 00:20:19,662 --> 00:20:23,262 Speaker 6: to her it seemed as though Gabby was emotionally overwhelmed, 394 00:20:23,862 --> 00:20:25,862 Speaker 6: and I feel like that's the Gabby that we saw 395 00:20:25,902 --> 00:20:28,702 Speaker 6: in the bodycam footage. So it kind of marries up 396 00:20:28,742 --> 00:20:31,262 Speaker 6: with Nina's interpretation of what she witnessed in the restaurant 397 00:20:31,302 --> 00:20:33,702 Speaker 6: that night. And if you think about that, it is 398 00:20:33,742 --> 00:20:36,822 Speaker 6: alarming that despite what they'd experienced, they weren't able to 399 00:20:36,902 --> 00:20:40,022 Speaker 6: kind of put the challenges they were facing as a 400 00:20:40,062 --> 00:20:42,982 Speaker 6: couple aside, and it escalated the way it did. So 401 00:20:43,342 --> 00:20:45,342 Speaker 6: the fact that the public is noticing that there was 402 00:20:45,502 --> 00:20:47,902 Speaker 6: a rift between them also tells us a lot about 403 00:20:47,902 --> 00:20:49,462 Speaker 6: the relationship in the state of mind that they were 404 00:20:49,622 --> 00:20:50,182 Speaker 6: at that time. 405 00:20:51,262 --> 00:20:54,622 Speaker 4: We know Gabby had a really close relationship with her mum, Nicole. 406 00:20:54,942 --> 00:20:58,222 Speaker 4: She was in regular contact with her every day or 407 00:20:58,262 --> 00:21:03,902 Speaker 4: every other day. When did Nicole begin to worry about 408 00:21:03,942 --> 00:21:05,342 Speaker 4: Gabby and her safety? 409 00:21:05,902 --> 00:21:09,542 Speaker 6: Yeah, so Nicole had been in regular contact with Gabby. 410 00:21:09,582 --> 00:21:11,222 Speaker 6: So that's not to say good day And let's not 411 00:21:11,262 --> 00:21:13,542 Speaker 6: forget that. Obviously, traveling in Van, you're always going to 412 00:21:13,542 --> 00:21:16,062 Speaker 6: have reception right or mobile phone coverage, so it wasn't 413 00:21:16,102 --> 00:21:17,822 Speaker 6: unusual to perhaps on hear each other for a day 414 00:21:17,902 --> 00:21:19,982 Speaker 6: or two. It wasn't until it got to about six 415 00:21:20,062 --> 00:21:22,502 Speaker 6: days that Nicole had not heard from Gabby and had 416 00:21:22,582 --> 00:21:24,582 Speaker 6: been monitoring her social media or noticed that there weren't 417 00:21:24,582 --> 00:21:25,702 Speaker 6: any posts or anything. 418 00:21:26,262 --> 00:21:27,542 Speaker 2: That she became a bit worried. 419 00:21:27,782 --> 00:21:30,342 Speaker 6: And that's when she reached out initially to the Laundry 420 00:21:30,342 --> 00:21:33,342 Speaker 6: family to find out, you know, whether they'd heard from 421 00:21:33,342 --> 00:21:36,022 Speaker 6: Brian and Gabby, whether they were okay, you know, whether 422 00:21:36,062 --> 00:21:38,542 Speaker 6: she could just dismiss it as them kind of you know, 423 00:21:38,582 --> 00:21:40,862 Speaker 6: on this adventure without reception, and that's all there was 424 00:21:40,862 --> 00:21:42,542 Speaker 6: to it. But she never heard back from the Laundries. 425 00:21:42,582 --> 00:21:44,502 Speaker 6: They never responded to her, and so I think it 426 00:21:44,502 --> 00:21:48,862 Speaker 6: got to about ten days and she became gravely concerned then. 427 00:21:48,902 --> 00:21:51,782 Speaker 6: And that's when the missing person's report was filed for Gabby. 428 00:21:52,342 --> 00:21:53,702 Speaker 6: And you know, you think about it and you go, yeah, 429 00:21:53,742 --> 00:21:56,462 Speaker 6: of course they're traveling the country. They're likely to dip 430 00:21:56,502 --> 00:21:58,222 Speaker 6: in and out of reception. It's not something to be 431 00:21:58,262 --> 00:21:59,942 Speaker 6: so alarmed about it. Because that was so close, she 432 00:21:59,982 --> 00:22:01,422 Speaker 6: knew that something was a miss and that this was 433 00:22:01,502 --> 00:22:02,302 Speaker 6: unlike her daughter. 434 00:22:03,222 --> 00:22:06,342 Speaker 4: And when that missing person's report was made by Gabby's 435 00:22:06,382 --> 00:22:10,662 Speaker 4: mum at that point was her concern or assumption that 436 00:22:10,702 --> 00:22:12,502 Speaker 4: both Gabby and Brian may be. 437 00:22:12,502 --> 00:22:14,942 Speaker 6: Missing that was certainly one of her concerns. Yeah, and 438 00:22:14,982 --> 00:22:17,702 Speaker 6: I think because they didn't hear back from the laundries anything, really, 439 00:22:17,822 --> 00:22:20,222 Speaker 6: they didn't know whether Brian himself was missing. But also 440 00:22:20,222 --> 00:22:22,342 Speaker 6: it's not necessarily their duty to report them both missing. 441 00:22:22,422 --> 00:22:23,422 Speaker 2: They hadn't heard from Gabby. 442 00:22:23,462 --> 00:22:26,422 Speaker 6: Gabby's their daughter, therefore Gabby's missing, And I think for 443 00:22:26,502 --> 00:22:29,222 Speaker 6: them there was that initial concern, of course about the 444 00:22:29,222 --> 00:22:32,822 Speaker 6: welfare of each of them, but it pretty quickly became 445 00:22:32,902 --> 00:22:35,262 Speaker 6: clear that actually Brian was okay. 446 00:22:35,542 --> 00:22:38,382 Speaker 2: It was just Gabby there wasn't you. 447 00:22:38,382 --> 00:22:39,662 Speaker 1: Say Brian was okay. 448 00:22:40,022 --> 00:22:44,622 Speaker 4: We know that because he drove home to his parents' 449 00:22:44,622 --> 00:22:45,862 Speaker 4: house in Florida. 450 00:22:47,222 --> 00:22:49,502 Speaker 1: What do we know about that time? What did he 451 00:22:49,582 --> 00:22:50,462 Speaker 1: tell his parents? 452 00:22:50,742 --> 00:22:53,822 Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, that's where this story really takes a 453 00:22:53,862 --> 00:22:57,742 Speaker 6: weird turn, because you would think that as her fiance, 454 00:22:58,022 --> 00:23:01,102 Speaker 6: Brian would be the most concerned about her welfare and 455 00:23:01,182 --> 00:23:04,582 Speaker 6: if she hadn't been heard from for six days or 456 00:23:04,622 --> 00:23:06,702 Speaker 6: ten days, however long it was, that he would be 457 00:23:06,702 --> 00:23:09,782 Speaker 6: the first to raise the alarm. But actually he maintained 458 00:23:09,822 --> 00:23:13,822 Speaker 6: absolute silence, deafening silence, according to the family, and they 459 00:23:13,862 --> 00:23:16,502 Speaker 6: could not get any information, not out of Brian, not 460 00:23:16,582 --> 00:23:19,422 Speaker 6: out of his parents. The laundry is basically hunkered down. 461 00:23:19,502 --> 00:23:21,142 Speaker 6: You couldn't get a word out of them. You couldn't 462 00:23:21,142 --> 00:23:23,502 Speaker 6: get any information out of them, and that to me 463 00:23:23,662 --> 00:23:25,422 Speaker 6: just doesn't make sense. You know. I was for the 464 00:23:25,462 --> 00:23:27,902 Speaker 6: sixty minute stories we did. We interviewed Brian Anton, who 465 00:23:27,902 --> 00:23:30,182 Speaker 6: was one of the reporters. In fact, he covered it 466 00:23:30,222 --> 00:23:32,662 Speaker 6: as extensively as any reporters covered any story. You know, 467 00:23:32,702 --> 00:23:34,582 Speaker 6: he was so thorough in his reporting, and he was 468 00:23:34,622 --> 00:23:37,262 Speaker 6: sort of saying that that was really unusual, and that 469 00:23:37,342 --> 00:23:40,382 Speaker 6: was really weird because it's as her fiance, Like I said, 470 00:23:40,382 --> 00:23:42,022 Speaker 6: it's the person you think would have all the answers, 471 00:23:42,062 --> 00:23:43,862 Speaker 6: and for him to duck and weave it was bizarre. 472 00:23:44,262 --> 00:23:47,142 Speaker 6: So yeah, there was nothing from him and the police. 473 00:23:47,422 --> 00:23:50,022 Speaker 6: This is an interesting quirk too, because there was no 474 00:23:50,062 --> 00:23:53,142 Speaker 6: evidence that a crime had occurred. The police didn't have 475 00:23:53,142 --> 00:23:56,102 Speaker 6: anything to go on. They couldn't charge anyone with anything, 476 00:23:56,142 --> 00:23:59,742 Speaker 6: They couldn't compel anyone to be interviewed. Brian was exercising 477 00:23:59,782 --> 00:24:04,462 Speaker 6: his constitutional right in Utah to not speak to police. 478 00:24:04,462 --> 00:24:06,302 Speaker 6: He didn't have to speak to police. They couldn't compel 479 00:24:06,382 --> 00:24:08,462 Speaker 6: him to speak to them, so they couldn't interview him 480 00:24:08,502 --> 00:24:11,302 Speaker 6: about her whereabouts. They could't interview him about it. What 481 00:24:11,382 --> 00:24:14,502 Speaker 6: they did do, bizarrely, was set up security cameras in 482 00:24:14,502 --> 00:24:17,542 Speaker 6: the neighbor's yards to try and capture any footage of 483 00:24:17,622 --> 00:24:18,942 Speaker 6: him kind of coming and going. 484 00:24:19,542 --> 00:24:22,942 Speaker 2: And that's where you see this awful situation. 485 00:24:22,542 --> 00:24:24,702 Speaker 6: Where I mean, it's hard to interpret it as anything 486 00:24:24,702 --> 00:24:26,662 Speaker 6: other than them dropping the ball. Basically, they had the 487 00:24:26,662 --> 00:24:29,742 Speaker 6: camera set up, Brian left the house, He walked out 488 00:24:29,742 --> 00:24:31,222 Speaker 6: of the house, got into a car, and drove away, 489 00:24:31,222 --> 00:24:34,742 Speaker 6: never to be seen again. And they mistook him for 490 00:24:34,822 --> 00:24:37,302 Speaker 6: his mother. They thought that was his mother leaving the house, 491 00:24:37,302 --> 00:24:39,222 Speaker 6: when actually it was Brian. So he basically slipped through 492 00:24:39,262 --> 00:24:42,342 Speaker 6: their fingers and the rest is history. 493 00:24:43,302 --> 00:24:46,222 Speaker 1: It's hard to wrap our heads around this part of. 494 00:24:46,222 --> 00:24:51,302 Speaker 4: The case, especially that he drove home a very long 495 00:24:51,342 --> 00:24:54,742 Speaker 4: way in Gabby's van, so I think that's important too. 496 00:24:54,782 --> 00:24:58,302 Speaker 4: That he arrives at his parents' house, he's completely silent. 497 00:24:58,662 --> 00:25:01,222 Speaker 4: He has Gabby's van, So, based on what we can 498 00:25:01,262 --> 00:25:04,462 Speaker 4: interpret at that time, not only is Gabby missing, but 499 00:25:04,542 --> 00:25:06,822 Speaker 4: she's also essentially homeless. 500 00:25:07,262 --> 00:25:08,422 Speaker 1: If she is safe, she. 501 00:25:08,342 --> 00:25:10,182 Speaker 4: Doesn't have the home that she's had for the last 502 00:25:10,222 --> 00:25:14,062 Speaker 4: two few months. In terms of law enforcement and their 503 00:25:14,062 --> 00:25:18,182 Speaker 4: options at the time. Why weren't they able to question 504 00:25:18,342 --> 00:25:20,142 Speaker 4: Brian at least about the van. 505 00:25:21,382 --> 00:25:23,462 Speaker 6: Well, I think it's because the way they put it 506 00:25:23,542 --> 00:25:26,622 Speaker 6: was that there was no evidence of a crime. So 507 00:25:26,702 --> 00:25:29,502 Speaker 6: I suppose if they were concerned that he'd stolen the 508 00:25:29,582 --> 00:25:32,102 Speaker 6: van and that could be deemed a crime, but that 509 00:25:32,262 --> 00:25:35,622 Speaker 6: wasn't a concern of theirs initially. It doesn't make much sense, 510 00:25:35,662 --> 00:25:37,062 Speaker 6: does it. I mean, even for me now, I still 511 00:25:37,062 --> 00:25:38,702 Speaker 6: scratch my head and wonder why they wouldn't just talk 512 00:25:38,742 --> 00:25:41,942 Speaker 6: to him. He was exercising his constitutional writers, I understand it. 513 00:25:42,382 --> 00:25:44,262 Speaker 6: He didn't have to speak to them, and so it's 514 00:25:44,262 --> 00:25:46,382 Speaker 6: bizarre to me that they can't compel him to speak 515 00:25:46,422 --> 00:25:49,582 Speaker 6: in any way. But also his parents didn't speak, and 516 00:25:49,582 --> 00:25:52,662 Speaker 6: that to me is also really concerning the fact that 517 00:25:52,702 --> 00:25:54,902 Speaker 6: your son would come home without his fiancee and then 518 00:25:54,942 --> 00:25:57,102 Speaker 6: not speak about her or perhaps speak about her, we 519 00:25:57,142 --> 00:26:01,062 Speaker 6: don't know, and for them to remain silent. The only 520 00:26:01,142 --> 00:26:03,862 Speaker 6: way that we knew that something was amiss was when 521 00:26:04,422 --> 00:26:08,982 Speaker 6: Nicole Gabby's mother hurt that the Laundries had hired a lawyer, 522 00:26:09,422 --> 00:26:11,222 Speaker 6: and so for her, she was like, hang on a minute, 523 00:26:11,342 --> 00:26:13,942 Speaker 6: this makes no sense at all. Why would they need 524 00:26:13,982 --> 00:26:16,542 Speaker 6: a lawyer, what the hell has happened here? And so 525 00:26:16,582 --> 00:26:18,742 Speaker 6: that's when we see all this movement around them filing 526 00:26:18,742 --> 00:26:21,502 Speaker 6: the missing person's report, all this stuff about getting in 527 00:26:21,502 --> 00:26:24,222 Speaker 6: the public eye, and I mean, as we know, as 528 00:26:24,222 --> 00:26:26,742 Speaker 6: soon as that was in the public eye, it absolutely 529 00:26:26,902 --> 00:26:28,942 Speaker 6: had a life of its own, and it took off 530 00:26:28,942 --> 00:26:31,582 Speaker 6: with armchair detectives left, right and center of the world 531 00:26:31,702 --> 00:26:36,222 Speaker 6: over really breaking down this case, diving into all her 532 00:26:36,262 --> 00:26:39,982 Speaker 6: social media posts. They'd created their own timelines based on 533 00:26:40,262 --> 00:26:42,182 Speaker 6: the color of her hair and whether her roots had 534 00:26:42,222 --> 00:26:45,502 Speaker 6: grown out, what she was wearing. It was quite extraordinary. 535 00:26:45,542 --> 00:26:47,462 Speaker 6: So there were all these armchair detectives in the place 536 00:26:47,462 --> 00:26:49,462 Speaker 6: of actual detective work because there was very little the 537 00:26:49,542 --> 00:26:50,542 Speaker 6: cops could do at that time. 538 00:26:51,622 --> 00:26:54,902 Speaker 4: How would you describe that time, especially given that role 539 00:26:55,022 --> 00:26:59,542 Speaker 4: of social media. Had we ever seen anything like that before. 540 00:26:59,902 --> 00:27:02,742 Speaker 6: I'd never seen anything like that before. It's interesting because 541 00:27:02,862 --> 00:27:05,342 Speaker 6: the age we live in, social media is just a 542 00:27:05,342 --> 00:27:07,622 Speaker 6: part of our life, you know. In this case, it 543 00:27:07,662 --> 00:27:09,862 Speaker 6: was mainly TikTok, but whether it's TikTok or Twitter or 544 00:27:09,902 --> 00:27:13,302 Speaker 6: Instagram or snapchat, whatever social media platform you choose, it 545 00:27:13,382 --> 00:27:16,582 Speaker 6: was incredible to see how many people really jumped on board. 546 00:27:16,582 --> 00:27:18,862 Speaker 6: I mean, there was like the hashtag Gabby Patito, and 547 00:27:18,902 --> 00:27:21,022 Speaker 6: if you hit that, you would down a rabbit hole 548 00:27:21,222 --> 00:27:24,102 Speaker 6: of various different takes on what happened to her, where 549 00:27:24,142 --> 00:27:26,742 Speaker 6: she was, what had happened to Brian, and breakdown in 550 00:27:26,742 --> 00:27:30,822 Speaker 6: their relationship, their social media posts, the police body camera footage. 551 00:27:30,862 --> 00:27:32,142 Speaker 6: So you know, in a way, there was actually an 552 00:27:32,142 --> 00:27:34,742 Speaker 6: abundance of information out there for everyone to kind of 553 00:27:34,782 --> 00:27:37,662 Speaker 6: jump on and dissect. But in terms of the way 554 00:27:37,702 --> 00:27:41,222 Speaker 6: that had galvanized the online population, I'd never seen anything 555 00:27:41,262 --> 00:27:43,102 Speaker 6: like that before, and it just goes to show you 556 00:27:43,182 --> 00:27:45,662 Speaker 6: the power of social media and the power of this 557 00:27:45,742 --> 00:27:48,262 Speaker 6: sort of online community. I mean, obviously a lot of 558 00:27:48,302 --> 00:27:50,142 Speaker 6: it was hot air, and people had their random takes. 559 00:27:50,182 --> 00:27:51,822 Speaker 6: I mean, some of it was quite ridiculous. A lot 560 00:27:51,822 --> 00:27:54,822 Speaker 6: of it was quite obs theory. Yeah, all these conspiracy theories, 561 00:27:54,862 --> 00:27:56,462 Speaker 6: and I mean, I don't know how much of that 562 00:27:56,502 --> 00:27:59,182 Speaker 6: actually assists police. In fact, probably makes their job harder 563 00:27:59,582 --> 00:28:02,182 Speaker 6: because then there's all this misinformation out there as well, right, 564 00:28:02,262 --> 00:28:04,622 Speaker 6: and so people are claiming that they've cited Gabby or 565 00:28:04,622 --> 00:28:07,462 Speaker 6: they've cited Brian. I think at one point this poor 566 00:28:07,502 --> 00:28:10,062 Speaker 6: man was photographed and everyone thought it was Brian, and 567 00:28:10,062 --> 00:28:11,982 Speaker 6: then he was just like jumped on and it wasn't Brian. 568 00:28:12,022 --> 00:28:13,462 Speaker 6: It was like, man, I'm just this bloke, you know. 569 00:28:13,622 --> 00:28:16,022 Speaker 6: So it can be dangerous, right if it's not done 570 00:28:16,022 --> 00:28:19,102 Speaker 6: with care. But then there was an example of it 571 00:28:19,262 --> 00:28:22,582 Speaker 6: actually providing a breakthrough in the case. And we interviewed 572 00:28:22,582 --> 00:28:25,582 Speaker 6: the Bathoons, who were also like a sort of a 573 00:28:25,662 --> 00:28:28,902 Speaker 6: van life family, Kyle and Jen and their kids. So 574 00:28:28,942 --> 00:28:30,822 Speaker 6: they travel around the country as well in a van 575 00:28:30,942 --> 00:28:32,862 Speaker 6: and for them that's just their life, that's what they do, 576 00:28:33,542 --> 00:28:36,062 Speaker 6: and they document their life. 577 00:28:36,102 --> 00:28:37,622 Speaker 2: They also have a YouTube page. 578 00:28:37,702 --> 00:28:40,502 Speaker 6: They also have a website where they share with the 579 00:28:40,542 --> 00:28:44,422 Speaker 6: world their experiences on the road. And so Jen was 580 00:28:44,462 --> 00:28:46,662 Speaker 6: sort of detailing to us when I spoke to her 581 00:28:47,182 --> 00:28:50,462 Speaker 6: the moment they realized that they captured footage of Gabby's van. 582 00:28:50,942 --> 00:28:53,342 Speaker 6: They were trawling through their vision, going this kind of 583 00:28:53,342 --> 00:28:55,862 Speaker 6: fits the time frame that we were in Wyoming at 584 00:28:55,862 --> 00:28:58,262 Speaker 6: the same time as them. Let's just look back at 585 00:28:58,262 --> 00:29:00,342 Speaker 6: the vision we've captured to see on the off chance 586 00:29:00,382 --> 00:29:03,782 Speaker 6: that we may have captured something. Long and behold, they 587 00:29:04,222 --> 00:29:06,382 Speaker 6: go through some of their vision and just off to 588 00:29:06,462 --> 00:29:09,822 Speaker 6: the side left a frame is a white van and 589 00:29:10,262 --> 00:29:13,102 Speaker 6: not a few hundred meters away from that was where 590 00:29:13,102 --> 00:29:15,782 Speaker 6: Gabby's body was ultimately found, So that piece of information 591 00:29:15,862 --> 00:29:19,782 Speaker 6: was pivotal for police. They obviously immediately passed that on 592 00:29:20,382 --> 00:29:23,902 Speaker 6: and then the search began around that area and that's 593 00:29:24,102 --> 00:29:28,422 Speaker 6: when Gabby's body was found. So despite all the crap 594 00:29:28,462 --> 00:29:31,662 Speaker 6: that was online, all the misinformation, there was that one 595 00:29:32,182 --> 00:29:36,542 Speaker 6: little piece of evidence that was useful ultimately to police 596 00:29:36,582 --> 00:29:37,382 Speaker 6: and to this case. 597 00:29:38,022 --> 00:29:41,222 Speaker 4: And did that mean police were able to also place 598 00:29:41,342 --> 00:29:45,582 Speaker 4: Brian at that location at that time given that he 599 00:29:45,662 --> 00:29:47,822 Speaker 4: was the one that then drove that van away from 600 00:29:47,822 --> 00:29:48,382 Speaker 4: that location. 601 00:29:48,902 --> 00:29:50,582 Speaker 6: You know, I don't know about the whereabouts of the 602 00:29:50,702 --> 00:29:52,982 Speaker 6: van after that, So I think for the police it 603 00:29:53,062 --> 00:29:56,582 Speaker 6: was just placing Gabby and Brian. Certainly Gabby at a 604 00:29:56,582 --> 00:30:00,822 Speaker 6: particular location at a particular point in time. Whether or 605 00:30:00,822 --> 00:30:03,022 Speaker 6: not that helped them in their case to find Brian, 606 00:30:03,062 --> 00:30:05,142 Speaker 6: I couldn't really say with much authority, but I think 607 00:30:05,142 --> 00:30:07,302 Speaker 6: for them it was at that point all about finding Gabby, 608 00:30:07,342 --> 00:30:09,342 Speaker 6: because don't forget, she was still missing then and so 609 00:30:09,422 --> 00:30:11,262 Speaker 6: there was no sign of her, so for them that 610 00:30:11,342 --> 00:30:12,142 Speaker 6: was their priority. 611 00:30:15,142 --> 00:30:18,862 Speaker 4: You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Emma Gillespie, 612 00:30:19,222 --> 00:30:22,102 Speaker 4: I'm speaking with Today's show co host and Sixty Minutes 613 00:30:22,142 --> 00:30:32,342 Speaker 4: contributor Sarah Arbo about the disappearance of Gabby Petito. As 614 00:30:32,382 --> 00:30:36,542 Speaker 4: you've said, this case absolutely erupted on social media at 615 00:30:36,542 --> 00:30:40,142 Speaker 4: the time. Gabby did have a bit of a following 616 00:30:40,182 --> 00:30:43,102 Speaker 4: of her own by the time she went missing. But 617 00:30:44,022 --> 00:30:46,142 Speaker 4: why is it do you think this case blew up 618 00:30:46,182 --> 00:30:48,142 Speaker 4: in the way that it did, you know, not just 619 00:30:48,262 --> 00:30:50,262 Speaker 4: in the US, but all around the world. 620 00:30:51,102 --> 00:30:54,142 Speaker 6: I mean, I think when Gabby set out to create 621 00:30:54,382 --> 00:30:58,222 Speaker 6: her online presence through YouTube and through social media, I 622 00:30:58,222 --> 00:31:00,822 Speaker 6: think the objective was to bring people along for the ride, 623 00:31:00,902 --> 00:31:03,462 Speaker 6: you know, to enjoy this journey with her. What that 624 00:31:03,502 --> 00:31:06,862 Speaker 6: then turned into when she disappeared was a window into 625 00:31:06,942 --> 00:31:09,782 Speaker 6: her life. It was a curated life, we know, you know, 626 00:31:09,822 --> 00:31:12,662 Speaker 6: this was an idea existence that beyond the surface, was 627 00:31:12,702 --> 00:31:16,342 Speaker 6: actually anything but her real life. And I think what 628 00:31:16,622 --> 00:31:20,582 Speaker 6: the public was able to gather from that was an 629 00:31:20,622 --> 00:31:24,702 Speaker 6: insight into her as a person, what made her tick. 630 00:31:24,902 --> 00:31:27,422 Speaker 6: And so I think because of the vast material that 631 00:31:27,542 --> 00:31:31,302 Speaker 6: was on the public record of Gabby and of Brian, 632 00:31:31,862 --> 00:31:34,662 Speaker 6: that in itself was what the public jumped on. 633 00:31:34,862 --> 00:31:38,302 Speaker 4: There's sort of like a parasocial relationship that's occurred here 634 00:31:38,342 --> 00:31:41,342 Speaker 4: where we feel like we know her maybe so and 635 00:31:41,462 --> 00:31:44,662 Speaker 4: more emotionally invested in her story because you can scroll 636 00:31:44,702 --> 00:31:47,782 Speaker 4: through her Instagram and see or get a sense of 637 00:31:47,822 --> 00:31:48,622 Speaker 4: who she is. 638 00:31:49,142 --> 00:31:49,742 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 639 00:31:49,782 --> 00:31:51,342 Speaker 6: I mean, I think there was a recognition there that 640 00:31:51,382 --> 00:31:52,862 Speaker 6: she was just like one of us. You know, she 641 00:31:52,942 --> 00:31:55,262 Speaker 6: was out there enjoying life, a young woman in her prime, 642 00:31:55,702 --> 00:31:58,582 Speaker 6: and so the posts that she'd put out there, it 643 00:31:58,622 --> 00:32:00,342 Speaker 6: was like a window into her life and it was 644 00:32:00,342 --> 00:32:02,622 Speaker 6: something that we could relate to, and so I think 645 00:32:02,662 --> 00:32:04,862 Speaker 6: for a lot of the online community that was something 646 00:32:04,902 --> 00:32:07,822 Speaker 6: that they seized and that was something that made them feel, yeah, 647 00:32:07,862 --> 00:32:09,862 Speaker 6: a sort of connection with Gabby that they felt like 648 00:32:09,862 --> 00:32:12,262 Speaker 6: they knew her little bit and she was this warm, bubbly, 649 00:32:12,302 --> 00:32:15,422 Speaker 6: engaging person and so automatically she kind of makes you 650 00:32:15,462 --> 00:32:17,662 Speaker 6: feel happy watching her, which I think was one of 651 00:32:17,662 --> 00:32:20,022 Speaker 6: her main objectives really in life, and so that came 652 00:32:20,102 --> 00:32:23,142 Speaker 6: through in what she was posting. And so because of that, 653 00:32:23,182 --> 00:32:25,102 Speaker 6: people felt like could relate to her, they felt like 654 00:32:25,142 --> 00:32:27,822 Speaker 6: they knew her, and they felt like perhaps that gave 655 00:32:27,862 --> 00:32:31,342 Speaker 6: them a greater ownership of her story and of the 656 00:32:31,422 --> 00:32:35,022 Speaker 6: case and an involvement in trying to well. Ultimately, actually, 657 00:32:35,102 --> 00:32:36,902 Speaker 6: I feel like it was perhaps an investment that the 658 00:32:36,942 --> 00:32:40,502 Speaker 6: public had in solving this case because they felt like 659 00:32:40,542 --> 00:32:43,742 Speaker 6: they maybe knew Gabby. Because there is this narrative about 660 00:32:44,022 --> 00:32:47,182 Speaker 6: why did the public jump on Gabby Petito's case versus 661 00:32:47,222 --> 00:32:49,262 Speaker 6: any other missing person's case, And I think it's because 662 00:32:49,262 --> 00:32:51,462 Speaker 6: of the access that the public had to her, what 663 00:32:51,582 --> 00:32:53,142 Speaker 6: she'd put out there. You know, you look at any 664 00:32:53,142 --> 00:32:55,462 Speaker 6: other missing person's case and perhaps the same kind of 665 00:32:55,902 --> 00:32:59,142 Speaker 6: information about them in their life doesn't exist. And so 666 00:32:59,262 --> 00:33:01,222 Speaker 6: this was a woman who they felt like they could 667 00:33:01,262 --> 00:33:04,262 Speaker 6: relate to, and somebody who they felt like they perhaps 668 00:33:05,102 --> 00:33:06,982 Speaker 6: may be friends with, you know, and knew, and so 669 00:33:07,022 --> 00:33:09,382 Speaker 6: therefore wanted to really invest in her story. 670 00:33:09,982 --> 00:33:13,942 Speaker 4: What was it like for Gabby's parents, obviously living this 671 00:33:14,142 --> 00:33:20,222 Speaker 4: nightmare of their little girl being missing, Brian not participating 672 00:33:20,342 --> 00:33:24,662 Speaker 4: in providing information, and then being missing himself, how did 673 00:33:24,702 --> 00:33:28,502 Speaker 4: it impact them to see the way the global community 674 00:33:28,542 --> 00:33:30,102 Speaker 4: responded to Gabby's story. 675 00:33:30,622 --> 00:33:33,462 Speaker 6: That's a big one, right, because you don't expect that. Well, 676 00:33:33,502 --> 00:33:34,982 Speaker 6: first of all, you don't expect that you're going to 677 00:33:34,982 --> 00:33:37,142 Speaker 6: be the victims of crime, and then if you are, 678 00:33:37,262 --> 00:33:39,862 Speaker 6: you don't expect it to make global headlines the way 679 00:33:39,942 --> 00:33:41,742 Speaker 6: it did. And you know, they'd done a little bit 680 00:33:41,742 --> 00:33:43,462 Speaker 6: of media obviously, they'd gotten on the front foot with 681 00:33:43,502 --> 00:33:45,942 Speaker 6: press conferences and they'd released images of Gabby in the 682 00:33:45,982 --> 00:33:48,382 Speaker 6: hope that somebody would have answers out there. But to 683 00:33:48,422 --> 00:33:50,462 Speaker 6: see the reach that it had, I mean, even for 684 00:33:50,502 --> 00:33:53,102 Speaker 6: them being interviewed by sixty minutes Australia was like, wow, 685 00:33:53,182 --> 00:33:57,582 Speaker 6: the interest is so broad. In a way, it was helpful, 686 00:33:57,582 --> 00:34:00,102 Speaker 6: and they were absolutely appreciative of the efforts that the 687 00:34:00,102 --> 00:34:02,022 Speaker 6: public had made to try and find their little girl. 688 00:34:02,582 --> 00:34:05,382 Speaker 6: And in a strange, kind of bittersweet way, for them too, 689 00:34:05,462 --> 00:34:09,062 Speaker 6: it was like they were able to share this beautiful 690 00:34:09,582 --> 00:34:13,222 Speaker 6: child of their who'd grown into this young, vivacious woman 691 00:34:13,542 --> 00:34:16,182 Speaker 6: with the world. The world had an insight into their 692 00:34:16,222 --> 00:34:18,622 Speaker 6: girl who they adored, and so for them there was 693 00:34:18,702 --> 00:34:21,102 Speaker 6: a little bit of comfort in that. But I think 694 00:34:21,142 --> 00:34:24,702 Speaker 6: it also absolutely blew them away. They weren't expecting that. 695 00:34:24,782 --> 00:34:28,262 Speaker 6: I think they were completely overwhelmed by it, as you 696 00:34:28,302 --> 00:34:28,622 Speaker 6: would be. 697 00:34:28,822 --> 00:34:29,382 Speaker 2: You know, it does. 698 00:34:29,462 --> 00:34:31,702 Speaker 6: It's so weird, right, It's so bizarre that in this 699 00:34:31,782 --> 00:34:34,062 Speaker 6: day and age that something like that would take on 700 00:34:34,102 --> 00:34:34,982 Speaker 6: a life of its own. 701 00:34:35,262 --> 00:34:36,982 Speaker 1: And I've sort of heard it said. 702 00:34:37,262 --> 00:34:42,822 Speaker 4: The bittersweet irony I guess of Gabby's footage and content 703 00:34:42,902 --> 00:34:46,542 Speaker 4: and hard work and everything she posted on YouTube and Instagram, 704 00:34:46,622 --> 00:34:49,262 Speaker 4: you know, eventually getting the views that she would have 705 00:34:49,302 --> 00:34:51,822 Speaker 4: dreamed of and the follow account she would have aspired to. 706 00:34:52,182 --> 00:34:52,622 Speaker 2: That's right. 707 00:34:52,782 --> 00:34:55,342 Speaker 6: Yeah, what she achieved in death was something she was 708 00:34:55,422 --> 00:34:58,742 Speaker 6: longing for in life, and there is something kind of 709 00:34:58,782 --> 00:35:00,862 Speaker 6: heartbreaking about that. But for her family, it sort of 710 00:35:00,902 --> 00:35:03,862 Speaker 6: represents that she did touch people's lives and that she 711 00:35:03,902 --> 00:35:05,422 Speaker 6: did have a bit of an impact, and I think 712 00:35:05,662 --> 00:35:08,262 Speaker 6: they've been spurred on by that and that's encouraged them 713 00:35:08,302 --> 00:35:09,862 Speaker 6: to really keep her spirit alive. 714 00:35:10,102 --> 00:35:12,902 Speaker 2: And the ultimate message here about the rest of the. 715 00:35:12,902 --> 00:35:16,342 Speaker 6: Global community helping locate other missing persons, you know, I 716 00:35:16,382 --> 00:35:18,902 Speaker 6: think and this was really interesting and beautiful. When I 717 00:35:18,942 --> 00:35:21,102 Speaker 6: was speaking to Joe, Gabby's father, he was like, I 718 00:35:21,142 --> 00:35:23,422 Speaker 6: wish that the world would get behind other missing people 719 00:35:23,422 --> 00:35:25,302 Speaker 6: the way they got behind Gabby. I wish that they 720 00:35:25,342 --> 00:35:28,182 Speaker 6: would help us find the hundreds of thousands of missing 721 00:35:28,182 --> 00:35:30,662 Speaker 6: people in the world that exist right now. I wish 722 00:35:30,662 --> 00:35:32,542 Speaker 6: that this would shine a light on them and their 723 00:35:32,542 --> 00:35:35,382 Speaker 6: ap plight and help their families find answers, because you know, 724 00:35:35,702 --> 00:35:38,382 Speaker 6: on any given day there are people missing there are 725 00:35:38,422 --> 00:35:41,262 Speaker 6: people who we will never find, and if only we 726 00:35:41,262 --> 00:35:44,302 Speaker 6: were as a global community more attuned to that in 727 00:35:44,342 --> 00:35:46,902 Speaker 6: the way we were for the Gabby Petito case. I 728 00:35:46,942 --> 00:35:48,862 Speaker 6: think he was yearning for something like that, and I 729 00:35:48,862 --> 00:35:51,902 Speaker 6: think he's hopeful that perhaps Gabby's case does lend itself 730 00:35:51,942 --> 00:35:57,222 Speaker 6: to create greater awareness for missing people and also for 731 00:35:57,662 --> 00:35:59,142 Speaker 6: domestic violence more broadly. 732 00:36:01,182 --> 00:36:06,142 Speaker 4: So we've got two wide scale national searches happening on 733 00:36:06,222 --> 00:36:10,022 Speaker 4: different sides of the US at the same time. I 734 00:36:10,062 --> 00:36:13,022 Speaker 4: want to go back to that breakthrough when things come 735 00:36:13,062 --> 00:36:16,502 Speaker 4: to a head in the search for Gabby Petito. What 736 00:36:16,542 --> 00:36:18,702 Speaker 4: can you tell me about the steps that were taken 737 00:36:18,742 --> 00:36:22,862 Speaker 4: after that van was cited? Police are notified what was discovered. 738 00:36:24,182 --> 00:36:27,102 Speaker 6: Yes, it was on the nineteenth of December, three hundred 739 00:36:27,142 --> 00:36:30,742 Speaker 6: meters from where the Berthune family had spotted Gabby's van. 740 00:36:31,502 --> 00:36:34,582 Speaker 6: The police found her body. So it was about three 741 00:36:34,582 --> 00:36:37,342 Speaker 6: months after she'd been killed that her body was found, 742 00:36:37,382 --> 00:36:39,382 Speaker 6: and so they obviously had to identify the body. The 743 00:36:39,462 --> 00:36:44,022 Speaker 6: remains weren't necessarily identifiable immediately, and once it had gone 744 00:36:44,062 --> 00:36:46,422 Speaker 6: to the coroner, they determined that it was a homicide 745 00:36:46,702 --> 00:36:49,862 Speaker 6: and that Gabby had died by strangulation, and so they 746 00:36:49,862 --> 00:36:50,942 Speaker 6: were on the hunt for her killer. 747 00:36:51,502 --> 00:36:52,462 Speaker 2: They only ever had. 748 00:36:52,342 --> 00:36:54,742 Speaker 6: One suspect and that was Brian Laundry, but they didn't 749 00:36:54,742 --> 00:36:57,742 Speaker 6: have enough evidence to pin him down. So after finding 750 00:36:57,742 --> 00:37:00,382 Speaker 6: her body, there was a warrant issued for his arrest, 751 00:37:00,462 --> 00:37:03,142 Speaker 6: but it wasn't for her murder. It was for fraud. 752 00:37:03,502 --> 00:37:07,662 Speaker 6: So he was wanted by police for actually using Gabby's 753 00:37:07,662 --> 00:37:11,382 Speaker 6: bank cards and withdrawing money. So the chart was knowingly 754 00:37:11,462 --> 00:37:16,422 Speaker 6: and with intent defrauding using one or more unauthorized access devices, 755 00:37:16,542 --> 00:37:20,502 Speaker 6: namely a Capital One Bank debit card and personal identification numbers. 756 00:37:20,942 --> 00:37:22,542 Speaker 2: So that was what actually. 757 00:37:22,222 --> 00:37:24,462 Speaker 6: They wanted him on and so that's when they ramped 758 00:37:24,542 --> 00:37:27,222 Speaker 6: up the search for Brian. And so this case took 759 00:37:27,262 --> 00:37:30,062 Speaker 6: another turn and I put this to Nicole and she 760 00:37:30,182 --> 00:37:32,182 Speaker 6: was like, you know what, He's not missing. He disappeared 761 00:37:32,222 --> 00:37:34,422 Speaker 6: like he ran away, and so they were calling him 762 00:37:34,422 --> 00:37:36,782 Speaker 6: a coward for not fronting up to his actions. And 763 00:37:37,262 --> 00:37:40,422 Speaker 6: even then it was Brian's parents who reported him missing, 764 00:37:41,302 --> 00:37:44,982 Speaker 6: but weren't divulging much information beyond that, and then the 765 00:37:45,022 --> 00:37:49,902 Speaker 6: search began for Brian, and then Brian's father was involved 766 00:37:50,182 --> 00:37:52,302 Speaker 6: in that search, so Chris went out looking for him. 767 00:37:52,342 --> 00:37:54,462 Speaker 6: At the Carlton Reserve, and it wasn't until Chris became 768 00:37:54,502 --> 00:37:57,382 Speaker 6: involved that then they found Brian's body. 769 00:37:59,782 --> 00:38:02,942 Speaker 4: I remember this time personally being interested in this case 770 00:38:02,942 --> 00:38:05,462 Speaker 4: and following it in the media and reporting on it, 771 00:38:06,022 --> 00:38:08,662 Speaker 4: and it felt so hard to keep up with that. 772 00:38:08,742 --> 00:38:11,982 Speaker 4: There were so many moving parts. We had these months 773 00:38:12,022 --> 00:38:14,662 Speaker 4: of not knowing what had happened to this beautiful young woman. 774 00:38:15,222 --> 00:38:19,102 Speaker 4: Why wasn't her fiance saying something? Then the tragedy of 775 00:38:19,142 --> 00:38:22,982 Speaker 4: her body being discovered, Then the added mystery of the man, 776 00:38:23,222 --> 00:38:25,742 Speaker 4: you know, the court of public opinion had decided, had 777 00:38:25,822 --> 00:38:32,462 Speaker 4: taken her life. How did Gabby's family navigate that time 778 00:38:32,862 --> 00:38:37,182 Speaker 4: in terms of the intense media interest, you know, plus 779 00:38:37,222 --> 00:38:42,302 Speaker 4: the social media interest, alongside the heartbreaking ordeal that they 780 00:38:42,302 --> 00:38:42,902 Speaker 4: were facing. 781 00:38:43,382 --> 00:38:47,742 Speaker 6: Yeah, it was absolutely heartbreaking for them, Utterly earth shattering. 782 00:38:48,342 --> 00:38:53,582 Speaker 6: I mean, the emotion and the devastation was written all 783 00:38:53,582 --> 00:38:55,502 Speaker 6: over their faces when we interviewed them, and it was 784 00:38:55,582 --> 00:38:57,142 Speaker 6: just something that's hard to hide. 785 00:38:57,222 --> 00:39:00,542 Speaker 7: I just hope that she didn't suffer and that she 786 00:39:00,622 --> 00:39:01,302 Speaker 7: wasn't in any. 787 00:39:01,222 --> 00:39:05,062 Speaker 1: Pain, just hoping that as that more. 788 00:39:07,262 --> 00:39:09,262 Speaker 7: That she was in a place that she wanted to be, 789 00:39:09,702 --> 00:39:11,142 Speaker 7: looking at the mountains. 790 00:39:12,742 --> 00:39:16,622 Speaker 1: It's something you never think is gonna you see. 791 00:39:16,382 --> 00:39:20,022 Speaker 2: It, You never ever think it's going to be yours. 792 00:39:22,142 --> 00:39:24,102 Speaker 2: It's just a surreal for them. 793 00:39:24,262 --> 00:39:27,782 Speaker 6: It was all about raising awareness of missing people, of 794 00:39:28,422 --> 00:39:31,502 Speaker 6: domestic violence, of wanting justice. 795 00:39:32,022 --> 00:39:33,542 Speaker 2: It sort of goes back to that point we were 796 00:39:33,542 --> 00:39:34,342 Speaker 2: discussing earlier. 797 00:39:34,622 --> 00:39:37,902 Speaker 6: It goes back to this notion that there's some comfort 798 00:39:37,982 --> 00:39:39,902 Speaker 6: in the fact that the world is interested in their 799 00:39:39,902 --> 00:39:43,542 Speaker 6: little girl and trying to help solve the mystery of. 800 00:39:43,582 --> 00:39:44,382 Speaker 2: What happened to her. 801 00:39:44,822 --> 00:39:47,942 Speaker 6: So I think they've found comfort, strangely in that as 802 00:39:47,942 --> 00:39:51,102 Speaker 6: a way of navigating through their pain, their grief, the 803 00:39:51,462 --> 00:39:54,102 Speaker 6: awful reality of what had happened to their daughter. 804 00:39:54,302 --> 00:39:56,142 Speaker 2: And they made a point of saying that no parents. 805 00:39:55,902 --> 00:39:58,942 Speaker 6: Should ever have to bury their child, regardless of how 806 00:39:58,942 --> 00:40:02,302 Speaker 6: old that child is, regardless of the circumstances of their death. 807 00:40:02,822 --> 00:40:05,862 Speaker 6: In this case, it was murder, so there was malicious 808 00:40:05,862 --> 00:40:09,142 Speaker 6: intent behind that, and for them that was something that 809 00:40:09,142 --> 00:40:11,622 Speaker 6: they really struggled to come to two with. It was 810 00:40:11,662 --> 00:40:15,182 Speaker 6: heartbreaking talking to them, and at the end of the day, 811 00:40:15,222 --> 00:40:17,862 Speaker 6: this was a family that had lost the beautiful little 812 00:40:17,902 --> 00:40:18,742 Speaker 6: girl who they adored. 813 00:40:19,702 --> 00:40:23,662 Speaker 4: Brian was finally found dead, As you mentioned, his father 814 00:40:23,982 --> 00:40:28,142 Speaker 4: providing police with a location that he suspected Brian may 815 00:40:28,182 --> 00:40:32,382 Speaker 4: have visited. What are the circumstances around the discovery of 816 00:40:32,502 --> 00:40:33,502 Speaker 4: Brian's remains. 817 00:40:34,142 --> 00:40:39,182 Speaker 6: Yeah, well, essentially they found skeletal remains and so they 818 00:40:39,222 --> 00:40:42,702 Speaker 6: had to identify that it was Brian, I think through Well, 819 00:40:42,822 --> 00:40:45,182 Speaker 6: obviously they can do that, you know, scientifically, but then 820 00:40:45,182 --> 00:40:47,502 Speaker 6: also the possessions that were with him when they found 821 00:40:47,622 --> 00:40:50,142 Speaker 6: the remains. That was really telling because some of the 822 00:40:50,142 --> 00:40:51,702 Speaker 6: items they found with him, which we can get to, 823 00:40:51,782 --> 00:40:54,422 Speaker 6: was obviously the journal and what he'd written in his journal. 824 00:40:54,822 --> 00:40:59,422 Speaker 6: But ultimately they found skeletal remains and a gunshot wound 825 00:40:59,462 --> 00:41:01,262 Speaker 6: to the head. So that was how they determined that 826 00:41:01,302 --> 00:41:03,182 Speaker 6: it was a self inflicted gun wound that he died 827 00:41:03,222 --> 00:41:07,022 Speaker 6: by suicide. When you look at his journal entries, you 828 00:41:07,142 --> 00:41:10,782 Speaker 6: understand that he was a man who was up steely, 829 00:41:11,822 --> 00:41:16,422 Speaker 6: tormented by what had happened. He admitted to killing Gabby. 830 00:41:17,022 --> 00:41:20,582 Speaker 6: He admitted to ending Gabby's life and called it a 831 00:41:20,622 --> 00:41:25,462 Speaker 6: merciful murder. I mean, what is that? Yeah, right, it's outrageous. 832 00:41:25,502 --> 00:41:27,902 Speaker 6: And when you read it, he was sort of describing 833 00:41:27,942 --> 00:41:31,022 Speaker 6: how he interpreted her emotional pain as something that couldn't 834 00:41:31,022 --> 00:41:34,302 Speaker 6: be overcome. And that he was almost doing this in 835 00:41:34,342 --> 00:41:37,902 Speaker 6: a way to save her from what she was experiencing 836 00:41:37,942 --> 00:41:40,622 Speaker 6: and what she was going through. There's no way of 837 00:41:40,702 --> 00:41:43,502 Speaker 6: justifying his behavior, but that's how he tried to justify 838 00:41:43,542 --> 00:41:47,742 Speaker 6: it himself. I suppose really those journal entries finally provided 839 00:41:47,782 --> 00:41:50,462 Speaker 6: the answers that everyone was looking for. Who killed Gabby, 840 00:41:50,662 --> 00:41:53,582 Speaker 6: why was she killed, how was she killed? And then 841 00:41:53,622 --> 00:41:54,462 Speaker 6: what happened to Brian. 842 00:41:55,502 --> 00:42:00,382 Speaker 4: But it seemed even with Brian, you know, in death, 843 00:42:00,422 --> 00:42:03,142 Speaker 4: in his final moments, he takes his own life that 844 00:42:03,702 --> 00:42:05,942 Speaker 4: you know, we can read into that that it was 845 00:42:05,982 --> 00:42:09,262 Speaker 4: all too much for him to bear. Through those diary entries, 846 00:42:10,502 --> 00:42:13,942 Speaker 4: it's as though he's not even able to fully own 847 00:42:14,422 --> 00:42:18,302 Speaker 4: what really happened because he tells this weird story about 848 00:42:18,582 --> 00:42:22,862 Speaker 4: Gabby being in pain. As you've mentioned, how did that 849 00:42:23,382 --> 00:42:29,022 Speaker 4: confession or sort of lack thereof, How did that tell 850 00:42:29,142 --> 00:42:31,822 Speaker 4: us what sort of a person Brian Laundry really was 851 00:42:31,942 --> 00:42:34,262 Speaker 4: or what sort of relationship he really had with Gabby. 852 00:42:34,862 --> 00:42:37,262 Speaker 6: When we talk about coercive control, as we're discussed, it's 853 00:42:37,262 --> 00:42:39,302 Speaker 6: sort of one of those things where it's quite a 854 00:42:39,302 --> 00:42:43,462 Speaker 6: controlling relationship, and so I think ultimately this comes full circle. 855 00:42:43,862 --> 00:42:47,102 Speaker 6: He had the ultimate control in this relationship. He ended 856 00:42:47,142 --> 00:42:49,582 Speaker 6: her life in his own words, you know, he ended 857 00:42:49,582 --> 00:42:52,262 Speaker 6: her life and then he took his own life. So 858 00:42:52,702 --> 00:42:57,182 Speaker 6: at every juncture he was in control. It speaks obviously 859 00:42:57,182 --> 00:43:00,742 Speaker 6: to a mind that's not thinking clearly. I mean, I 860 00:43:00,782 --> 00:43:02,302 Speaker 6: think it's a safe bet that he would have been 861 00:43:02,342 --> 00:43:04,382 Speaker 6: having some of his own mental demons. You know, this 862 00:43:04,422 --> 00:43:07,302 Speaker 6: is a relationship that's been described as toxic, as dysfunctional. 863 00:43:07,382 --> 00:43:09,622 Speaker 6: The fact they weren't able to see through that is 864 00:43:09,622 --> 00:43:13,422 Speaker 6: a tragedyness. They were very young, obviously, and it tells 865 00:43:13,502 --> 00:43:16,782 Speaker 6: us I think that this relationship was an example of 866 00:43:16,822 --> 00:43:21,222 Speaker 6: course of control in the most fatal, catastrophic way. You know, 867 00:43:21,302 --> 00:43:25,262 Speaker 6: not only did Brian kill his fiance, somebody who's supposed 868 00:43:25,262 --> 00:43:27,462 Speaker 6: to love more than anyone else in the world, he 869 00:43:27,502 --> 00:43:31,102 Speaker 6: then killed himself. So there's obviously a sense there of 870 00:43:31,742 --> 00:43:35,902 Speaker 6: instability and somebody who couldn't see past that. 871 00:43:36,182 --> 00:43:36,942 Speaker 2: I think in Brian. 872 00:43:38,342 --> 00:43:43,102 Speaker 4: Brian's parents, Chris and Roberta never really spoke out even 873 00:43:43,142 --> 00:43:47,302 Speaker 4: after Brian's death, did they ever face any legal ramifications. 874 00:43:47,742 --> 00:43:50,582 Speaker 4: I just feel like in Australia, if you had someone 875 00:43:50,622 --> 00:43:55,422 Speaker 4: who facilitated this suspect in an investigation, and you didn't 876 00:43:55,422 --> 00:43:59,462 Speaker 4: provide information to police that there would be outrage in 877 00:43:59,502 --> 00:44:04,582 Speaker 4: the community. We can't hold Brian to account. He's dead, 878 00:44:05,462 --> 00:44:09,062 Speaker 4: But is there that sense of anger towards Brian's parents 879 00:44:09,142 --> 00:44:09,782 Speaker 4: to this day? 880 00:44:09,822 --> 00:44:12,702 Speaker 6: Do you think the whole thing with the laundries was 881 00:44:13,062 --> 00:44:17,182 Speaker 6: their deafening silence throughout this They really didn't cooperate with police. 882 00:44:17,222 --> 00:44:20,702 Speaker 6: They really didn't cooperate with the Potito family right up 883 00:44:20,782 --> 00:44:23,622 Speaker 6: until the very end. And the main way that the 884 00:44:23,622 --> 00:44:26,702 Speaker 6: Potito family was able to seek justice was through the courts. 885 00:44:26,942 --> 00:44:29,782 Speaker 6: In this case, it was an emotional distress case and 886 00:44:29,862 --> 00:44:32,262 Speaker 6: were awarded three million dollars, And so I think for 887 00:44:32,342 --> 00:44:35,022 Speaker 6: them that was really about righting or wrong and the 888 00:44:35,062 --> 00:44:37,822 Speaker 6: fact that they'd been robbed of their daughter, that she 889 00:44:37,902 --> 00:44:41,222 Speaker 6: had been murdered by Brian. He was also now dead, 890 00:44:41,342 --> 00:44:44,022 Speaker 6: so he can't be punished for that crime. And so 891 00:44:44,182 --> 00:44:46,862 Speaker 6: this case, this emotional distress case, was a way for 892 00:44:46,902 --> 00:44:49,102 Speaker 6: them to seek justice, the only way really for them 893 00:44:49,142 --> 00:44:50,102 Speaker 6: to seek justice. 894 00:44:50,382 --> 00:44:51,662 Speaker 2: But what they're also trying. 895 00:44:51,382 --> 00:44:54,822 Speaker 6: To achieve with this case is to ensure that it 896 00:44:54,902 --> 00:44:58,262 Speaker 6: never happens again. In the sense that the law enforcement 897 00:44:58,302 --> 00:45:02,982 Speaker 6: officers who were supposed to protect Gabby should have perhaps 898 00:45:03,022 --> 00:45:05,862 Speaker 6: been better trained or should have perhaps better recognized the 899 00:45:05,902 --> 00:45:08,262 Speaker 6: red flags, and so I think for them now, a 900 00:45:08,302 --> 00:45:12,182 Speaker 6: main objective is that they ensure that the right kind 901 00:45:12,182 --> 00:45:15,942 Speaker 6: of training is received by the officers on the ground 902 00:45:15,942 --> 00:45:19,222 Speaker 6: who were dealing with family violence, whether it's you know, 903 00:45:19,382 --> 00:45:22,782 Speaker 6: actually physical violence or more of that coursive control, which 904 00:45:22,822 --> 00:45:26,342 Speaker 6: is harder to detect, but with increased awareness shouldn't be 905 00:45:26,342 --> 00:45:27,462 Speaker 6: as difficult to detect. 906 00:45:28,542 --> 00:45:30,982 Speaker 4: We have heard in recent months that Gabby's parents are 907 00:45:31,302 --> 00:45:35,422 Speaker 4: planning on suing those police officers in Utah who we discussed. 908 00:45:35,662 --> 00:45:38,542 Speaker 4: You know, they pulled Gabby and Brian over, they'd sent 909 00:45:38,582 --> 00:45:40,262 Speaker 4: them on their way, and two weeks later we know 910 00:45:40,302 --> 00:45:43,942 Speaker 4: Gabby was dead. Do you think that they have something 911 00:45:43,982 --> 00:45:46,662 Speaker 4: to answer for? Is there more to it that will 912 00:45:46,702 --> 00:45:47,382 Speaker 4: be revealed? 913 00:45:49,022 --> 00:45:52,062 Speaker 6: I think it does come down to training, you know, 914 00:45:52,182 --> 00:45:54,382 Speaker 6: It's one of those things. I mean, it's hard to 915 00:45:54,462 --> 00:45:57,182 Speaker 6: know if this was another couple, if they'd pulled them 916 00:45:57,182 --> 00:46:00,262 Speaker 6: over and treated it the same way, whether the outcome 917 00:46:00,262 --> 00:46:02,822 Speaker 6: would have been different or the same. As we said earlier, 918 00:46:02,862 --> 00:46:04,542 Speaker 6: I think if they had acted differently, and if they 919 00:46:04,542 --> 00:46:07,622 Speaker 6: had followed the protocol and put it through the court system, 920 00:46:07,742 --> 00:46:10,942 Speaker 6: I mean, there's every chance that the broader community, perhaps 921 00:46:10,982 --> 00:46:13,822 Speaker 6: even the Potito family, if not the Laundry family as well, 922 00:46:13,822 --> 00:46:18,262 Speaker 6: would have been awakened to the coercive, controlling nature of 923 00:46:18,302 --> 00:46:21,302 Speaker 6: their relationship of Brian asserting that kind of control over 924 00:46:21,342 --> 00:46:24,342 Speaker 6: Gabby's life. If we'd been awakened to that earlier, then 925 00:46:24,342 --> 00:46:26,422 Speaker 6: we would have perhaps been able to prevent her death. 926 00:46:26,982 --> 00:46:28,782 Speaker 6: And so I think that's one of the objectives of 927 00:46:28,822 --> 00:46:33,382 Speaker 6: perhaps pursuing the police in this way and really ensuring 928 00:46:33,462 --> 00:46:37,222 Speaker 6: that this doesn't happen again, that we know better next time, 929 00:46:37,342 --> 00:46:41,102 Speaker 6: that the police are able to combat something like this better, 930 00:46:41,582 --> 00:46:43,622 Speaker 6: and that they're able to handle it, and even just 931 00:46:43,662 --> 00:46:45,782 Speaker 6: for their own peace of mind, I mean for the officers. 932 00:46:45,822 --> 00:46:48,222 Speaker 6: I mean, so we had the two primary officers involved, 933 00:46:48,222 --> 00:46:50,582 Speaker 6: and then there was another couple, a woman and a 934 00:46:50,582 --> 00:46:52,382 Speaker 6: man I think, who were really distressed by what had 935 00:46:52,382 --> 00:46:55,102 Speaker 6: happened and then were blaming themselves for the outcome. They 936 00:46:55,142 --> 00:46:57,422 Speaker 6: weren't really involved in it at all, but just as 937 00:46:57,462 --> 00:46:59,302 Speaker 6: sort of having witnessed it off to the side, to 938 00:46:59,342 --> 00:47:02,662 Speaker 6: the peripheral. For them, it was such an enormous impact 939 00:47:02,742 --> 00:47:05,102 Speaker 6: on their own mental well being that they felt this, 940 00:47:05,702 --> 00:47:08,702 Speaker 6: And so I think it's about preventing that from happening. 941 00:47:08,982 --> 00:47:11,902 Speaker 6: For everyone involved, whether it's the victims, or whether it's 942 00:47:11,942 --> 00:47:14,782 Speaker 6: those dishing out the advice or the warnings or responsible 943 00:47:14,782 --> 00:47:17,102 Speaker 6: for the protocol being followed through, I think it's for 944 00:47:17,182 --> 00:47:19,582 Speaker 6: everyone's peace of mind that the right action is taken. 945 00:47:20,702 --> 00:47:23,782 Speaker 4: Gabby's dad, Joe told you this is a story that 946 00:47:24,142 --> 00:47:28,022 Speaker 4: needs to be heard. Does that tie into all of 947 00:47:28,062 --> 00:47:33,782 Speaker 4: this understanding of an awareness around abusive relationships violent relationships? 948 00:47:34,142 --> 00:47:34,742 Speaker 2: Absolutely? 949 00:47:34,822 --> 00:47:37,382 Speaker 6: I mean his main goal right now is to raise 950 00:47:37,382 --> 00:47:41,102 Speaker 6: as much awareness about domestic violence, about abusive relationships as 951 00:47:41,142 --> 00:47:44,382 Speaker 6: he can, in concert with raising the awareness of missing 952 00:47:44,382 --> 00:47:47,182 Speaker 6: persons cases generally. You know, when I spoke to him 953 00:47:47,182 --> 00:47:49,062 Speaker 6: the first time, because we spoke a number of times 954 00:47:49,102 --> 00:47:50,582 Speaker 6: over the course of the stories that we did for 955 00:47:50,622 --> 00:47:52,342 Speaker 6: sixty minutes, but the very first time I spoke to 956 00:47:52,462 --> 00:47:54,702 Speaker 6: him is like, you know what, Sarah, There's every chance 957 00:47:54,702 --> 00:47:57,382 Speaker 6: that you know somebody out there who is a victim 958 00:47:57,502 --> 00:48:03,502 Speaker 6: of some kind of coercive control, emotional abuse, domestic violence, 959 00:48:03,662 --> 00:48:05,342 Speaker 6: but you don't know about it. There's a chance that 960 00:48:05,382 --> 00:48:07,062 Speaker 6: you've got a friend out there who perhaps has a 961 00:48:07,062 --> 00:48:09,902 Speaker 6: partner who is exhibiting this kind of behavior, but you 962 00:48:09,902 --> 00:48:11,462 Speaker 6: don't know about it because that don't want to speak 963 00:48:11,462 --> 00:48:14,262 Speaker 6: about it. And we know that that's an issue in Australia. 964 00:48:14,342 --> 00:48:16,022 Speaker 6: You know, the amount of women that are being killed 965 00:48:16,062 --> 00:48:19,382 Speaker 6: every year in this country on a weekly basis because 966 00:48:19,382 --> 00:48:21,822 Speaker 6: of domestic violence, you know, killed by somebody they know, 967 00:48:21,902 --> 00:48:24,502 Speaker 6: whether it's a spouse or a family member. I mean, 968 00:48:24,542 --> 00:48:26,822 Speaker 6: it's something that needs to be addressed, and I think 969 00:48:27,222 --> 00:48:30,462 Speaker 6: Joe recognizes that and is so hyper aware of it, 970 00:48:30,502 --> 00:48:35,462 Speaker 6: and so for him, telling Gabby's story hopefully informs the 971 00:48:35,502 --> 00:48:37,982 Speaker 6: public that it's not okay to be in a relationship 972 00:48:38,062 --> 00:48:41,302 Speaker 6: like this, that we need to address domestic violence in 973 00:48:41,342 --> 00:48:44,382 Speaker 6: all its forms to stop these kinds of deaths that 974 00:48:44,502 --> 00:48:47,702 Speaker 6: ultimately are preventable because if they're addressed early, we don't 975 00:48:47,702 --> 00:48:49,302 Speaker 6: need to see people lose their lives. 976 00:48:50,222 --> 00:48:55,302 Speaker 4: Is that activism? How Gabby's family are reckoning with her death? 977 00:48:55,582 --> 00:48:56,222 Speaker 1: Do you think? 978 00:48:56,382 --> 00:49:00,022 Speaker 4: How are they moving on with their lives, finding peace, 979 00:49:00,142 --> 00:49:01,262 Speaker 4: honoring her legacy? 980 00:49:01,622 --> 00:49:01,822 Speaker 2: Yeah. 981 00:49:01,862 --> 00:49:05,022 Speaker 6: So they've set up the Gabby Patito Foundation, and for them, 982 00:49:05,062 --> 00:49:08,822 Speaker 6: the aim of that is to raise awareness about domestic violence, 983 00:49:08,902 --> 00:49:12,942 Speaker 6: to raise awareness about missing persons, and I think for 984 00:49:13,022 --> 00:49:16,462 Speaker 6: them it's also about improving outreach programs so that anyone 985 00:49:16,502 --> 00:49:18,582 Speaker 6: who is a victim of domestic violence has somewhere to 986 00:49:18,622 --> 00:49:21,862 Speaker 6: turn and so that they don't feel alone. I think 987 00:49:21,902 --> 00:49:23,902 Speaker 6: that's a big part of it. You know, this idea 988 00:49:24,022 --> 00:49:25,702 Speaker 6: that you don't have anywhere to or you feel like 989 00:49:25,742 --> 00:49:27,302 Speaker 6: you've got no where to turn. I mean, we know 990 00:49:27,382 --> 00:49:30,462 Speaker 6: that the hardest part of any domestic violence relationship for 991 00:49:30,502 --> 00:49:31,582 Speaker 6: a woman is to get out. 992 00:49:31,782 --> 00:49:32,822 Speaker 2: That's the hardest part. 993 00:49:33,222 --> 00:49:37,502 Speaker 6: Being able to find time, to actually establish a separate life, 994 00:49:37,502 --> 00:49:39,222 Speaker 6: to be able to find a new home to go to. 995 00:49:39,342 --> 00:49:41,622 Speaker 6: All that sort of stuff is impossible when you're in 996 00:49:41,622 --> 00:49:43,622 Speaker 6: the midst of it. And so I think for him 997 00:49:43,782 --> 00:49:47,182 Speaker 6: and for the Potito family broadly, that Gabby Patito Foundation 998 00:49:47,742 --> 00:49:50,262 Speaker 6: stands as a bit of a safe place for people 999 00:49:50,342 --> 00:49:53,062 Speaker 6: to turn when they're looking for that assistance if they're 1000 00:49:53,062 --> 00:49:54,462 Speaker 6: in a domestic violence situation. 1001 00:49:59,502 --> 00:50:02,622 Speaker 4: Thanks to Sarah for assisting us to tell Gabby's story. 1002 00:50:03,222 --> 00:50:05,502 Speaker 4: If you'd like to watch Sarah's coverage of this case 1003 00:50:05,502 --> 00:50:08,222 Speaker 4: for sixty minutes, there's a link in the episode description. 1004 00:50:09,022 --> 00:50:12,542 Speaker 4: True Crime Conversations is Amma mea podcast hosted by me 1005 00:50:12,742 --> 00:50:15,382 Speaker 4: Emma Gillespie, and if you have a case you think 1006 00:50:15,382 --> 00:50:17,822 Speaker 4: we should cover next, get in touch with us. You 1007 00:50:17,902 --> 00:50:21,142 Speaker 4: can send an email to true Crime at mamamea dot 1008 00:50:21,142 --> 00:50:22,142 Speaker 4: com dot au.