WEBVTT - Our Most Talked About Conversations: ‘The Uncomfortable Case For Marrying An Older Man’ 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:18.887 that this podcast is recorded on out loud. 0:00:18.927 --> 0:00:21.407 As if you're missing your weekly out loud routine over 0:00:21.447 --> 0:00:24.407 the break, and why wouldn't you be, we wanted to 0:00:24.487 --> 0:00:26.527 let you know that we are still dropping episodes for 0:00:26.647 --> 0:00:30.607 Mma mia subscribers all summer long. So as a subscriber, 0:00:30.767 --> 0:00:33.087 you get full access to out Loud, including the back 0:00:33.127 --> 0:00:37.007 catalog of over two hundred and fifty subscriber only episodes. 0:00:37.407 --> 0:00:40.407 Listen to us until your ear is bleed. Subscribe to 0:00:40.447 --> 0:00:43.287 Momma Maya via a link in the episode description. 0:00:45.327 --> 0:00:48.327 Hello out Louder friends, It's Holly and welcome to hot 0:00:48.367 --> 0:00:51.727 pod summer. As you listen to this, hopefully I am 0:00:51.727 --> 0:00:55.367 pottering around in my garden and avoiding my children and 0:00:55.607 --> 0:00:59.887 wearing lots of sunscreen down here in the regions. But 0:00:59.967 --> 0:01:02.607 wherever you are, I am excited to share a little 0:01:02.607 --> 0:01:05.687 treat with you the best out loud podcasts from twenty 0:01:05.727 --> 0:01:08.767 twenty four. Whether I'm taking a stroll with Tuna, my dog, 0:01:09.127 --> 0:01:10.687 or having a bit of a rest in the shade, 0:01:10.767 --> 0:01:12.807 I'm going to be listening to this handpicked selection of 0:01:12.847 --> 0:01:16.047 Out Loud episodes because hey, we only get better by 0:01:16.127 --> 0:01:19.487 critiquing ourselves, and they're perfect for your someone listening. Think 0:01:19.487 --> 0:01:21.567 of this series as our holiday get together where we 0:01:21.607 --> 0:01:24.007 dive into the stories and laughs that made the year special. 0:01:24.327 --> 0:01:27.047 Grab a drink, settle in, let's explore the best Out 0:01:27.047 --> 0:01:28.887 Loud moments from twenty twenty four. 0:01:37.367 --> 0:01:40.487 An article in The Cut went absolutely viral this week, 0:01:40.527 --> 0:01:42.687 and we've been desperate to talk about it, so much 0:01:42.727 --> 0:01:45.127 so that we keep having to say to each other, stop, 0:01:46.207 --> 0:01:48.927 save it, save it for the show favor. This is 0:01:48.927 --> 0:01:52.127 why I'm so excited to finally do brief. The piece 0:01:52.727 --> 0:01:55.927 is called the Case for Marrying an Older Man. It 0:01:56.047 --> 0:01:58.527 argues that a woman's life is all work and little rest. 0:01:58.807 --> 0:02:04.487 An age gap relationship can help. The author, Gracie Sophia Christie, 0:02:04.687 --> 0:02:07.607 married a man ten years older, and that wasn't an accident. 0:02:08.007 --> 0:02:12.287 She actively pursued an older, wealthier, more established man, and 0:02:12.367 --> 0:02:13.287 she explains why. 0:02:13.767 --> 0:02:14.327 When she was. 0:02:14.287 --> 0:02:16.727 Twenty, she was at Harvard and she realized that while, 0:02:16.767 --> 0:02:19.167 of course she could spend the next few decades proving 0:02:19.207 --> 0:02:21.367 how exceptional she was like everyone else in her class, 0:02:21.647 --> 0:02:24.407 it would be more efficient and in fact, cleverer to 0:02:24.527 --> 0:02:27.727 use the one thing on her side that would soon fade, 0:02:27.887 --> 0:02:30.207 and that was her youth. She would go to Harvard 0:02:30.287 --> 0:02:33.607 Business School like the actual location and purposely sit among 0:02:33.767 --> 0:02:36.847 fifty of what she calls the world's most eligible bachelors. 0:02:37.487 --> 0:02:40.767 She couldn't understand why her female classmates weren't joining her 0:02:41.087 --> 0:02:42.527 her youth, as she understood it. 0:02:42.447 --> 0:02:47.847 Because they had some self respect. 0:02:48.807 --> 0:02:52.287 Sorry, I just want to understand this a little bit more. 0:02:52.327 --> 0:02:53.807 I no, this is very nerdy. But so she was 0:02:53.807 --> 0:02:56.207 studying at Harvard. She was probably starting, I don't know, whatever, 0:02:56.287 --> 0:02:58.567 Bachelor of Arts, whatever you did, Harvard, right, But the 0:02:58.687 --> 0:03:01.687 business school is quite specific and there are people of 0:03:01.767 --> 0:03:02.767 school all ages at. 0:03:02.687 --> 0:03:04.567 The How I understand it is I think the business 0:03:04.567 --> 0:03:06.927 school is a little bit more postgraduate. Yeah, and if 0:03:06.927 --> 0:03:09.287 you postgraduate, your older, right. So this is for the 0:03:09.327 --> 0:03:12.087 big dogs who maybe already are running their own business, okay, 0:03:12.247 --> 0:03:15.847 whereas all the other people are just silly undergrads Harvard yuck. Yeah, 0:03:15.887 --> 0:03:18.767 So she thought, why not take advantage of this? Well, 0:03:18.847 --> 0:03:21.127 I can this situation where I've got proximity to these 0:03:21.247 --> 0:03:23.927 rich people. She met her husband at twenty when she 0:03:24.047 --> 0:03:27.007 snuck into a graduate school event, and she fell in love. 0:03:27.607 --> 0:03:31.207 Rather than get stuck in these discussions about fair and unfair, 0:03:31.447 --> 0:03:35.007 equal or unequal, she says she preferred instead a thing 0:03:35.127 --> 0:03:39.287 called ease. Christy rightly points out that every relationship is 0:03:39.327 --> 0:03:42.367 a transaction, but many read her deal the trade she 0:03:42.527 --> 0:03:45.567 made as a bad one. Her marriage, where she was younger, 0:03:45.647 --> 0:03:49.127 more beautiful, he was older, more wealthy, was something those 0:03:49.287 --> 0:03:54.007 around her took very personally, for example Holly. Meanwhile, she 0:03:54.167 --> 0:03:57.847 says young women were bringing up young men, teaching them 0:03:57.887 --> 0:04:00.207 to floss and do their washing before passing them over 0:04:00.367 --> 0:04:01.687 to the person they'd marry. 0:04:01.767 --> 0:04:04.527 In part of the essay, she talks about how when 0:04:04.567 --> 0:04:07.167 we see her fifty year old walking down the street 0:04:07.167 --> 0:04:11.167 with the twenty five year old, mentally make calculations like 0:04:11.207 --> 0:04:14.167 who got the better deal. Yes, she talks about she 0:04:14.207 --> 0:04:17.927 went very deliberately to this party. She snuck in. It was, 0:04:18.327 --> 0:04:20.207 you know, graduates were there, so they were all older 0:04:20.247 --> 0:04:21.847 than her. She said, I ate for free, I doubts 0:04:21.887 --> 0:04:23.967 for free, and then one of the organizers asked me 0:04:24.007 --> 0:04:25.567 to leave. I called anew but I got into it, 0:04:25.607 --> 0:04:27.687 and then I got straight out when I saw this 0:04:27.767 --> 0:04:31.487 guy walk out of the revolving doors. He was thirty. 0:04:31.727 --> 0:04:34.167 Turns out he was French. She asked him for a cigarette. 0:04:34.207 --> 0:04:36.607 They went on a date, and she said a really 0:04:36.687 --> 0:04:40.607 interesting thing. She said, until then, I'd loved men in 0:04:40.647 --> 0:04:44.727 the way that men usually love women, which is not 0:04:45.007 --> 0:04:48.487 very well and kind of without a plan because she 0:04:48.647 --> 0:04:52.247 was twenty. Yeah, and she said, but not this time. 0:04:52.407 --> 0:04:56.167 This time, I filled his fridge with his favorite foods. 0:04:56.367 --> 0:04:59.087 I spoke fondly of my family. I wrote a thank 0:04:59.127 --> 0:05:02.927 you note to his mum. And basically she played the game. 0:05:02.967 --> 0:05:05.207 She does say we did fall in love, so it's 0:05:05.287 --> 0:05:09.207 not like she had to force herself. He was frenchship. 0:05:09.687 --> 0:05:13.287 But she also said the way a decade year age 0:05:13.287 --> 0:05:16.807 gap reads is different, Like she said, twenty to thirty 0:05:16.847 --> 0:05:19.327 is very different to thirty and forty. And she said 0:05:19.367 --> 0:05:21.847 that there was a lot of hostility from his friends, 0:05:21.847 --> 0:05:24.327 and she was once in the bathroom and she heard 0:05:24.327 --> 0:05:27.487 his female friends sort of saying, what does he see 0:05:27.487 --> 0:05:27.807 in her? 0:05:28.127 --> 0:05:31.167 Yeah, so the transaction feels personal. And also people would 0:05:31.167 --> 0:05:32.847 look at it and be like, this is a terrible deal. 0:05:33.167 --> 0:05:34.887 I know, it's like four yeah. 0:05:34.927 --> 0:05:37.647 And ultimately, she writes, there is no brand of feminism 0:05:37.847 --> 0:05:41.487 which has achieved female rest but what she earned herself 0:05:41.527 --> 0:05:44.567 by marrying an older, richer man was that she got 0:05:44.687 --> 0:05:47.527 some time and it alleviated the rush other women feel 0:05:47.567 --> 0:05:51.287 to climb the corporate ladder while potentially planning a family Holly, 0:05:51.487 --> 0:05:53.647 she says, she gets to live the life of a writer. 0:05:54.007 --> 0:05:56.167 She has a lot of leisure time. Her life sounds 0:05:56.167 --> 0:05:57.807 so aspirational. She has to go on holiday. 0:05:58.367 --> 0:06:00.407 Do you regret not marrying an older richer man. 0:06:00.447 --> 0:06:02.007 I think Helle's jealous. 0:06:02.127 --> 0:06:03.807 That's what it is. I think that's why this feels 0:06:03.807 --> 0:06:04.727 like a personal attack. 0:06:06.807 --> 0:06:08.807 I don't know where to start with you, Stady a 0:06:08.807 --> 0:06:12.687 therapist about your reaction to this essay. Discuss because I 0:06:12.847 --> 0:06:15.927 entirely respect her choice to make her choices. But the 0:06:15.967 --> 0:06:18.887 whole she chooses her choice. The whole a case for 0:06:18.967 --> 0:06:21.647 marrying an older man. Yeah, the word that isn't in 0:06:21.647 --> 0:06:23.967 that sentence that needs been there is a rich older man. 0:06:24.087 --> 0:06:25.687 Is that very much needs to be in there, because 0:06:25.727 --> 0:06:30.727 you can marry older men, some of them. Any exactly 0:06:31.327 --> 0:06:34.367 what she's basically bought herself is like a five star 0:06:34.447 --> 0:06:38.247 backpacking holiday right. Her twenties have been she says to herself, 0:06:38.287 --> 0:06:41.087 traveling around the world, living in a beautiful apartment. There's 0:06:41.127 --> 0:06:43.367 a bit in it where she talks about him showing 0:06:43.407 --> 0:06:45.367 her where they were going to live, and she said 0:06:45.367 --> 0:06:48.007 it was like she was introducing myself to me. This 0:06:48.087 --> 0:06:50.007 is the wine we're going to drink. This is where 0:06:50.047 --> 0:06:53.087 we live. This is like he is in control of 0:06:53.247 --> 0:06:56.567 everything they do. It's not their apartment, it's his apartment. 0:06:56.647 --> 0:06:58.327 She has to ask for the keys to get in 0:06:58.407 --> 0:07:00.807 and out. It's his life and she's living in it. 0:07:01.127 --> 0:07:04.487 And that might work really well for her, But the 0:07:04.527 --> 0:07:07.447 way that she talks with the sort of disdain about 0:07:07.447 --> 0:07:10.607 the people she knows who are like messily building a 0:07:10.647 --> 0:07:15.567 life together or on their own or whatever, is really 0:07:16.687 --> 0:07:19.887 judgmental because it assumes that everybody wants what she's got, 0:07:20.047 --> 0:07:22.607 which is like she doesn't want to have a career. 0:07:22.647 --> 0:07:23.847 I mean, she wants to be a writer, and she's 0:07:23.847 --> 0:07:26.207 a beautiful writer. The essay is gorgeous, as one of 0:07:26.207 --> 0:07:28.887 the reasons it's gone viral, I'm sure, but it's like, 0:07:29.007 --> 0:07:31.007 I didn't want to have to do the crappy jobs 0:07:31.007 --> 0:07:33.047 that most people have to do while they work their 0:07:33.047 --> 0:07:35.247 way to a career that they actually love. I didn't 0:07:35.247 --> 0:07:37.087 want to have to do any of that stuff. Well, 0:07:37.087 --> 0:07:39.567 that's fine for her, but it kind of makes this 0:07:39.647 --> 0:07:43.887 assumption that we could all by ourselves some ease if 0:07:43.887 --> 0:07:46.647 we just agreed to hunt down a dude who is 0:07:46.687 --> 0:07:48.927 going to pay for everything, which I just find regressive 0:07:48.927 --> 0:07:49.527 and dangerous. 0:07:50.127 --> 0:07:52.327 I was trying to summon feelings when I read this, 0:07:52.447 --> 0:07:54.607 because I was like, this is the piece that's gone 0:07:54.687 --> 0:07:57.247 viral and everyone's talking about it, and people seem to 0:07:57.287 --> 0:08:00.287 have really strong feelings about it, and I read it 0:08:00.367 --> 0:08:03.047 and I could not summon a strong feeling, and I 0:08:03.087 --> 0:08:07.247 don't know why. Am I broken. I feel like just 0:08:07.327 --> 0:08:10.287 what she says is kind of obvious, and I don't 0:08:11.367 --> 0:08:16.447 feel defensive about it. I don't feel incredulous or insulted. 0:08:16.527 --> 0:08:19.247 It just seems really obvious. 0:08:19.407 --> 0:08:22.687 But she doesn't feel, to you, very old fashioned. This 0:08:22.807 --> 0:08:26.087 is what every movie's ever been about, like older rich man, 0:08:26.327 --> 0:08:29.047 young beautiful woman. You get to live this life for 0:08:29.087 --> 0:08:31.527 a while, then he'll probably pass you over for a 0:08:31.567 --> 0:08:33.967 new model. And she does say that the only time 0:08:34.047 --> 0:08:37.207 that she gets worried is when she realizes that if 0:08:37.247 --> 0:08:39.687 he betrayed her and she would have to take a stand, 0:08:40.527 --> 0:08:43.167 she would lose everything, right like she lose the beautiful 0:08:43.167 --> 0:08:46.007 house and the holidays and all those things. She said, 0:08:46.047 --> 0:08:48.567 she realized that too much work had left my husband 0:08:48.567 --> 0:08:51.447 by thirty jaded and uninspired. He'd burnt out. But I 0:08:51.447 --> 0:08:54.247 could re enchant things. I danced at restaurants when they 0:08:54.287 --> 0:08:57.127 played a song I liked. I turned grocery shopping into 0:08:57.127 --> 0:09:02.727 an adventure, pleased by what I provided. He needed someone 0:09:02.727 --> 0:09:05.247 smart enough to sustain his interest, but flexible enough in 0:09:05.247 --> 0:09:08.047 her habits to build them around his hours. I could, 0:09:08.167 --> 0:09:11.007 I do. I make my self free. I materialized beside 0:09:11.047 --> 0:09:12.007 him when he calls for me. 0:09:12.327 --> 0:09:13.407 She is a puppy. 0:09:13.607 --> 0:09:16.247 She is a cute puppy, and the puppy will grow 0:09:16.287 --> 0:09:18.967 into a dog, and then you want another cute puppy 0:09:19.087 --> 0:09:21.607 where she's not building anything of her own. 0:09:21.767 --> 0:09:24.127 Where's the space for meaning in this life? And this 0:09:24.207 --> 0:09:24.527 is the thing? 0:09:24.607 --> 0:09:24.727 Right. 0:09:24.767 --> 0:09:27.047 I read this and I went, I know women. 0:09:27.647 --> 0:09:27.887 I know. 0:09:27.967 --> 0:09:29.927 If I asked them straight up, did you marry that 0:09:29.967 --> 0:09:33.047 person for money? They would say yes. And I have 0:09:33.127 --> 0:09:35.967 had a real issue with that and dealt with my 0:09:36.087 --> 0:09:40.607 own judgment because I've gone it's a transaction. I superficially 0:09:40.607 --> 0:09:42.687 would go, I know why he married you. You were 0:09:42.687 --> 0:09:44.167 able to give him more children? 0:09:44.247 --> 0:09:46.647 Is in every relationship some kind of transaction. 0:09:47.207 --> 0:09:50.087 But the reason why I thought about this, the reason 0:09:50.127 --> 0:09:53.327 why this transaction riles me is twofold. The first is 0:09:53.767 --> 0:09:58.367 she's offering advice, and this advice is dangerous. It's regressive, 0:09:58.407 --> 0:10:00.167 and it has made women miserable for a lot of 0:10:00.167 --> 0:10:03.527 excus Why is it dangerous because it is telling women 0:10:03.847 --> 0:10:04.927 You're the one who always. 0:10:04.727 --> 0:10:08.767 Says tells a financial plan and everything plan. 0:10:09.247 --> 0:10:12.207 And the second reason why this is not a good 0:10:12.207 --> 0:10:14.607 long term solution is that the issue with finding a 0:10:14.647 --> 0:10:18.087 man who loves a compliance submissive twenty something year old 0:10:18.527 --> 0:10:20.927 is when you become a thirty something year old, he 0:10:20.967 --> 0:10:25.327 probably still wants a compliance submissive twenty something year old. 0:10:25.367 --> 0:10:26.327 And then what do you do? 0:10:26.887 --> 0:10:30.567 And Taylor Swift's lyrics when she sang about Jillenhall, no 0:10:30.687 --> 0:10:32.087 I was never good. 0:10:32.207 --> 0:10:37.647 It's hell joges, but the Punchland goes, I'll get Oh 0:10:37.967 --> 0:10:40.767 the butcher lovers staying my. 0:10:41.167 --> 0:10:42.967 Age from when you're brother. 0:10:43.447 --> 0:10:45.967 Yeah, I say, it's not about the age gap, right. 0:10:46.007 --> 0:10:47.967 This is what's interesting about this the case for marrying 0:10:47.967 --> 0:10:51.167 an older man, the age thing is almost irrelevant, except 0:10:51.207 --> 0:10:53.687 in as much in this is she deliberately wanted someone 0:10:53.767 --> 0:10:55.847 much more well established so they could look after her. 0:10:56.087 --> 0:10:56.247 Right. 0:10:56.327 --> 0:10:58.487 So that's the age piece. But as we said, not 0:10:58.567 --> 0:11:03.487 all older men are rich. And her specific financial thing. 0:11:03.407 --> 0:11:06.967 Yeah, and her worldview, she sees it as this very 0:11:07.007 --> 0:11:10.367 obvious thing, and I don't think she realizes that that 0:11:10.447 --> 0:11:14.607 dynamic does not exist in every partnership, and in fact, 0:11:14.607 --> 0:11:18.247 a lot of people are marrying for reasons that are 0:11:18.247 --> 0:11:22.327 not financial or are not necessarily to do with power. 0:11:22.527 --> 0:11:26.087 So she's saying basically that within the institution of marriage, 0:11:26.207 --> 0:11:29.367 women's value is decreasing at the same time that men's 0:11:29.407 --> 0:11:32.087 value is increasing, and that happens with eight. She describes 0:11:32.087 --> 0:11:34.407 it as like a funnel, like women are on this 0:11:34.647 --> 0:11:37.367 funnel where things are getting slimmer and slimmer and slimmer 0:11:37.367 --> 0:11:39.607 in terms of opportunities, and men's are getting broader and 0:11:39.647 --> 0:11:40.367 broader and broader. 0:11:40.767 --> 0:11:43.367 But to agree with that, you have to completely discount 0:11:43.407 --> 0:11:45.007 all of the work that we've been doing in the 0:11:45.087 --> 0:11:47.527 last fifty years to make women's value a lot more. 0:11:47.327 --> 0:11:50.087 Than just value of being a human being. We have 0:11:50.207 --> 0:11:53.367 thoughts and ideas, and you guys are idealistic. What I 0:11:53.407 --> 0:11:54.407 thought was interesting. 0:11:54.567 --> 0:11:57.887 I commend you for that. It's not a criticism. What 0:11:58.327 --> 0:12:03.367 I found interesting apart from she just liked the holidays. 0:12:03.087 --> 0:12:04.407 Which I mean I would like that. 0:12:06.247 --> 0:12:08.847 Lack of friction and the lack of having to strive. 0:12:09.887 --> 0:12:15.327 To me, it was also about the attraction to someone 0:12:15.327 --> 0:12:19.087 who was already formed. That was interesting. It meant that 0:12:19.207 --> 0:12:23.447 the mental labor of having to work out who she 0:12:23.807 --> 0:12:26.767 was what she liked, having to kiss a lot of frogs, 0:12:27.007 --> 0:12:30.447 not just in romantic relationships, but like having the wrong jobs, 0:12:30.487 --> 0:12:33.367 living in the wrong places, like that struggle. He was 0:12:33.647 --> 0:12:37.647 just further down the road, and she wanted to just 0:12:37.967 --> 0:12:41.927 fast track at a decade oudulthood. She wanted to skip 0:12:41.967 --> 0:12:42.767 the messy part. 0:12:43.247 --> 0:12:44.967 But the thing is, and again this is why it 0:12:45.127 --> 0:12:47.767 might be a perfect choice for her, but the fun 0:12:47.967 --> 0:12:50.607 is in the figuring it out, like having a life 0:12:50.727 --> 0:12:52.367 just handed to you on a plate, like this is 0:12:52.407 --> 0:12:55.007 literally what he did, this is where we live, this 0:12:55.047 --> 0:12:56.767 is where we're going there. It's lovely for her, but 0:12:56.847 --> 0:13:00.047 like I can honestly say, with the age in hindsight 0:13:00.087 --> 0:13:02.287 and even all the difficult times in the skin times, 0:13:02.287 --> 0:13:04.967 and that that's where the fun is. Like I don't know, 0:13:05.287 --> 0:13:07.807 it doesn't appeal to me except for five minutes. 0:13:07.607 --> 0:13:09.607 On the surface, it seems like she's happy and she's 0:13:09.647 --> 0:13:12.767 offering advice. If there are a few very very telling 0:13:12.807 --> 0:13:16.127 lines about there's only so many times you can say 0:13:16.127 --> 0:13:19.207 thank you to someone, and there was some line about 0:13:19.207 --> 0:13:21.807 almost being told that you're ungrateful or that you're not 0:13:22.007 --> 0:13:26.127 being thankful enough sup supportive enough, is code for you're 0:13:26.167 --> 0:13:26.767 indebted to me. 0:13:27.047 --> 0:13:30.767 Because also, if she's writing a novel, unsurprisingly, she's probably 0:13:30.807 --> 0:13:32.807 going to get big money for it after this viral essay. 0:13:33.167 --> 0:13:34.327 If her work does. 0:13:34.127 --> 0:13:38.007 Become demanding and she cannot be constantly available to literally 0:13:38.087 --> 0:13:40.927 materialize beside him when he calls for me, as she says, 0:13:41.207 --> 0:13:43.167 he's not going to like that. That's not the way 0:13:43.207 --> 0:13:44.127 it works. No. 0:13:43.927 --> 0:13:47.167 I once had a conversation. I was sitting next to 0:13:47.207 --> 0:13:50.287 this guy at a dinner and he was very wealthy, 0:13:50.687 --> 0:13:57.087 and he liked the idea of a partner who was 0:13:57.287 --> 0:14:01.567 kind of like me, like ambitious and feisty and all 0:14:01.607 --> 0:14:05.887 of that stuff. But when we spoke more, and he 0:14:05.927 --> 0:14:09.327 wasn't propositioning me or anything, but when we were talking 0:14:09.367 --> 0:14:12.767 about what he needed from his partner, it was exactly 0:14:12.807 --> 0:14:15.807 what you said. It was a kavoodal. Essentially, it was 0:14:15.847 --> 0:14:19.807 someone a skeleton that they were just really malleable around 0:14:19.847 --> 0:14:22.327 his life because when he needed to go overseas and 0:14:22.407 --> 0:14:26.567 play polo or when he needed to he wanted someone 0:14:26.607 --> 0:14:29.247 who could just drop everything and be with him. But 0:14:29.287 --> 0:14:31.407 then he was also frustrated by that because he said, 0:14:31.407 --> 0:14:34.167 I would come home and I'll say to you know, 0:14:34.327 --> 0:14:38.447 the pretty model, Oh, I'm so stressed at work, and 0:14:38.487 --> 0:14:41.207 she would go, Babe, just quit, you know, We'll just 0:14:41.247 --> 0:14:44.847 move to the South of France and just get high. Yeah, 0:14:45.207 --> 0:14:47.367 because her life could be that. So she wasn't his 0:14:47.447 --> 0:14:51.167 intellectual equal, but his intellectual equal was not going to 0:14:51.247 --> 0:14:52.487 logistically fit in his life. 0:14:52.567 --> 0:14:55.807 It's very interesting. It's interesting as why this essay went viral, right, 0:14:55.887 --> 0:14:58.967 And as I've said, it's a beautifully written personal essay. 0:14:59.367 --> 0:15:01.487 But to me, it feels part of this whole thing 0:15:01.487 --> 0:15:03.327 that I'm seeing everywhere I look at the minute about 0:15:03.407 --> 0:15:06.687 trad wives, stay at home girlfriend's soft girls. I'm not 0:15:06.727 --> 0:15:09.167 saying that there isn't credence and credibility to what she 0:15:09.447 --> 0:15:12.167 saying about. When I think of same age, same stage relationships, 0:15:12.207 --> 0:15:13.847 what I tend to picture as a woman who's doing 0:15:13.887 --> 0:15:16.687 too much for too little. That's really interesting, and her 0:15:16.687 --> 0:15:19.167 point about no view of feminism having ease in it, 0:15:19.247 --> 0:15:22.087 She's not wrong. I think that all of this sort 0:15:22.087 --> 0:15:26.447 of yearning for this kind of easy, soft life where 0:15:26.487 --> 0:15:29.607 someone looks after you is a very understandable reaction to 0:15:29.647 --> 0:15:31.727 what we're seeing all around us, which is the reality 0:15:31.767 --> 0:15:34.487 for women is that mostly they're doing everything all the time. 0:15:34.567 --> 0:15:36.887 It's the opposite of ease. They've got the job, but 0:15:36.887 --> 0:15:39.887 they're also taking care of this boy child you know, 0:15:39.927 --> 0:15:42.927 who is supposed to be their partner, but really isn't 0:15:42.967 --> 0:15:45.727 doing his like looking after himself and looking after a 0:15:45.767 --> 0:15:48.367 home and looking after kids, and looking after their extended 0:15:48.367 --> 0:15:52.367 family and all of those things. It's very understandable that 0:15:52.407 --> 0:15:56.647 there's like this attractive pull, whether it's through lovely, hazy 0:15:56.687 --> 0:15:59.927 pictures on Instagram or beautiful essays like this about like 0:16:00.007 --> 0:16:02.487 my life is there's time for me. I get to 0:16:02.487 --> 0:16:04.527 wander around and think thoughts and look. 0:16:04.367 --> 0:16:09.527 At flowers and sounds great. But how much agent do 0:16:09.607 --> 0:16:09.847 you have? 0:16:10.047 --> 0:16:12.447 Well? Agency is the most important thing for everybody, it's 0:16:12.487 --> 0:16:14.047 not and I think that we have to be careful 0:16:14.087 --> 0:16:17.447 of not projecting our values onto other people. But you know, 0:16:19.287 --> 0:16:20.447 you know, and mind independent. 0:16:20.887 --> 0:16:22.687 It's one of my very highly value. 0:16:22.847 --> 0:16:25.927 Yes, to be clear, I agree with you. But where 0:16:25.927 --> 0:16:30.007 these relationships come unstuck is when kids come along. Because 0:16:30.727 --> 0:16:35.007 she's able to supplicate her desires, her wants, her needs 0:16:35.447 --> 0:16:37.447 to him and make him the center of the universe. 0:16:37.487 --> 0:16:40.647 When a child comes along, suddenly he's not the center 0:16:40.687 --> 0:16:43.247 of the universe. He goes down on the leaderboard to 0:16:43.687 --> 0:16:46.047 number two, or at least he should when there's a 0:16:46.127 --> 0:16:49.687 baby in the house and newborn baby, and that tends 0:16:49.727 --> 0:16:52.567 to really mess with the dynamic or do they have. 0:16:52.527 --> 0:16:54.607 The perfect dynamic for a baby to come along? And 0:16:54.607 --> 0:16:57.167 in fact, that's why this went viral because the dynamic, 0:16:57.407 --> 0:17:00.407 it's obvious the baby comes along, very obvious who's going 0:17:00.447 --> 0:17:02.647 to look after the baby? They have room in that 0:17:02.727 --> 0:17:06.607 relationship for a baby, whereas it's almost like what she. 0:17:06.807 --> 0:17:09.207 Don't know what gives her babying of him? 0:17:09.487 --> 0:17:11.887 Well, it is clear that he's the one with the 0:17:11.967 --> 0:17:13.727 career who gets to go and pursue this. 0:17:13.927 --> 0:17:15.487 She's about to get a book deal. 0:17:15.647 --> 0:17:17.447 Yeah, I know, but she's playing that down very much 0:17:17.487 --> 0:17:20.047 because she likes the holidays. But I thought that it 0:17:20.087 --> 0:17:23.967 was almost saying this approach to life where we just 0:17:24.127 --> 0:17:27.047 accept gender dynamics as they are. We accept the way 0:17:27.087 --> 0:17:31.007 that society values women and we play by those rules. 0:17:31.007 --> 0:17:33.767 Means that I can take my time and then before motherhood, 0:17:33.767 --> 0:17:35.687 I've had the holidays, I've had the rest, and I'm 0:17:35.727 --> 0:17:38.407 ready to look after a baby. If you compare that 0:17:38.527 --> 0:17:41.967 to the relationship like lucronize relationship, where we're both on 0:17:42.007 --> 0:17:44.207 this treadmill to work, work, work, work, work, work, work, 0:17:44.527 --> 0:17:46.647 and then the baby comes, it's like divorce. 0:17:47.567 --> 0:17:48.287 What time is it. 0:17:49.207 --> 0:17:51.287 You've got two people who are heavily invested in their 0:17:51.287 --> 0:17:54.047 careers looking at each other going, wait, what was the plan? 0:17:54.527 --> 0:17:54.647 Like? 0:17:55.167 --> 0:17:57.167 So, I think that's almost what this is a reflection 0:17:57.247 --> 0:17:57.607 of as. 0:17:57.527 --> 0:18:02.047 Well, is that the disillusionment feminism has set up isn't 0:18:02.407 --> 0:18:04.607 working either, and the fact that this is a reaction 0:18:05.247 --> 0:18:07.687 to that, to me, that's what's. 0:18:07.407 --> 0:18:10.407 But it's not feminism that doesn't work, right, I agree, 0:18:10.607 --> 0:18:12.807 I know what I was just saying. I think it's 0:18:12.807 --> 0:18:15.127 a reaction to going hold on, I'm still doing everything. 0:18:15.567 --> 0:18:17.127 I thought this was going to be a fifty to 0:18:17.167 --> 0:18:21.527 fifty situation, and it's not. It's not feminism's fault. I love, 0:18:21.567 --> 0:18:25.087 there's a problem in that fifty to fifty time. The 0:18:25.167 --> 0:18:27.007 other part of it isn't doing everything. 0:18:27.607 --> 0:18:29.647 There's a line in it where she says, when we 0:18:29.687 --> 0:18:31.527 decided we wanted to be equal to men, we got 0:18:31.527 --> 0:18:34.807 on men's time. Of course, the problem with that is 0:18:34.847 --> 0:18:37.087 that if you want to have babies, you turn around 0:18:37.087 --> 0:18:39.127 and then you've got the mental load of that at thirty. 0:18:39.647 --> 0:18:41.647 You never get sort of your room of one's own. 0:18:41.767 --> 0:18:45.967 That kind of women the feminists thought we might half 0:18:45.967 --> 0:18:48.847 a century ago. I can see how there's something aspirational 0:18:48.887 --> 0:18:51.167 about that. But then there was a really good critique 0:18:51.207 --> 0:18:54.607 which basically said, this is the Republican plan from others, like, 0:18:54.687 --> 0:18:57.647 this is the conservative plan in the US, And this 0:18:57.727 --> 0:19:01.207 is my theory exactly. This is my theory about why 0:19:01.207 --> 0:19:05.007 we're seeing this tradwife, soft girl retreating to the home. 0:19:05.047 --> 0:19:08.487 Thing is that one is like a counter cultural reaction 0:19:08.727 --> 0:19:11.567 to the feminism has got to, but the other is 0:19:11.607 --> 0:19:15.407 a pushed republican conservative agenda because women aren't having enough 0:19:15.407 --> 0:19:20.367 babies progressive like in western countries, we're not replacing the 0:19:20.407 --> 0:19:23.887 population enough, and you're seeing this very unsubtleed messaging which 0:19:23.927 --> 0:19:25.847 is like women go back home and have more babies, please. 0:19:25.687 --> 0:19:27.927 One hundred percent. And it's also what comes from governments 0:19:27.927 --> 0:19:30.207 whenever they want women to get out of the workforce 0:19:30.207 --> 0:19:32.207 and make more room for the guys. Like, let's be honest, 0:19:32.607 --> 0:19:35.087 men are being pushed out of the workforce by smart women, 0:19:35.527 --> 0:19:38.767 and like, in another generation, women's value in society won't 0:19:38.767 --> 0:19:41.087