1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:13,047 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767 Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:18,887 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on out loud. 4 00:00:18,927 --> 00:00:21,407 Speaker 1: As if you're missing your weekly out loud routine over 5 00:00:21,447 --> 00:00:24,407 Speaker 1: the break, and why wouldn't you be, we wanted to 6 00:00:24,487 --> 00:00:26,527 Speaker 1: let you know that we are still dropping episodes for 7 00:00:26,647 --> 00:00:30,607 Speaker 1: Mma mia subscribers all summer long. So as a subscriber, 8 00:00:30,767 --> 00:00:33,087 Speaker 1: you get full access to out Loud, including the back 9 00:00:33,127 --> 00:00:37,007 Speaker 1: catalog of over two hundred and fifty subscriber only episodes. 10 00:00:37,407 --> 00:00:40,407 Speaker 1: Listen to us until your ear is bleed. Subscribe to 11 00:00:40,447 --> 00:00:43,287 Speaker 1: Momma Maya via a link in the episode description. 12 00:00:45,327 --> 00:00:48,327 Speaker 2: Hello out Louder friends, It's Holly and welcome to hot 13 00:00:48,367 --> 00:00:51,727 Speaker 2: pod summer. As you listen to this, hopefully I am 14 00:00:51,727 --> 00:00:55,367 Speaker 2: pottering around in my garden and avoiding my children and 15 00:00:55,607 --> 00:00:59,887 Speaker 2: wearing lots of sunscreen down here in the regions. But 16 00:00:59,967 --> 00:01:02,607 Speaker 2: wherever you are, I am excited to share a little 17 00:01:02,607 --> 00:01:05,687 Speaker 2: treat with you the best out loud podcasts from twenty 18 00:01:05,727 --> 00:01:08,767 Speaker 2: twenty four. Whether I'm taking a stroll with Tuna, my dog, 19 00:01:09,127 --> 00:01:10,687 Speaker 2: or having a bit of a rest in the shade, 20 00:01:10,767 --> 00:01:12,807 Speaker 2: I'm going to be listening to this handpicked selection of 21 00:01:12,847 --> 00:01:16,047 Speaker 2: Out Loud episodes because hey, we only get better by 22 00:01:16,127 --> 00:01:19,487 Speaker 2: critiquing ourselves, and they're perfect for your someone listening. Think 23 00:01:19,487 --> 00:01:21,567 Speaker 2: of this series as our holiday get together where we 24 00:01:21,607 --> 00:01:24,007 Speaker 2: dive into the stories and laughs that made the year special. 25 00:01:24,327 --> 00:01:27,047 Speaker 2: Grab a drink, settle in, let's explore the best Out 26 00:01:27,047 --> 00:01:28,887 Speaker 2: Loud moments from twenty twenty four. 27 00:01:37,367 --> 00:01:40,487 Speaker 3: An article in The Cut went absolutely viral this week, 28 00:01:40,527 --> 00:01:42,687 Speaker 3: and we've been desperate to talk about it, so much 29 00:01:42,727 --> 00:01:45,127 Speaker 3: so that we keep having to say to each other, stop, 30 00:01:46,207 --> 00:01:48,927 Speaker 3: save it, save it for the show favor. This is 31 00:01:48,927 --> 00:01:52,127 Speaker 3: why I'm so excited to finally do brief. The piece 32 00:01:52,727 --> 00:01:55,927 Speaker 3: is called the Case for Marrying an Older Man. It 33 00:01:56,047 --> 00:01:58,527 Speaker 3: argues that a woman's life is all work and little rest. 34 00:01:58,807 --> 00:02:04,487 Speaker 3: An age gap relationship can help. The author, Gracie Sophia Christie, 35 00:02:04,687 --> 00:02:07,607 Speaker 3: married a man ten years older, and that wasn't an accident. 36 00:02:08,007 --> 00:02:12,287 Speaker 3: She actively pursued an older, wealthier, more established man, and 37 00:02:12,367 --> 00:02:13,287 Speaker 3: she explains why. 38 00:02:13,767 --> 00:02:14,327 Speaker 4: When she was. 39 00:02:14,287 --> 00:02:16,727 Speaker 3: Twenty, she was at Harvard and she realized that while, 40 00:02:16,767 --> 00:02:19,167 Speaker 3: of course she could spend the next few decades proving 41 00:02:19,207 --> 00:02:21,367 Speaker 3: how exceptional she was like everyone else in her class, 42 00:02:21,647 --> 00:02:24,407 Speaker 3: it would be more efficient and in fact, cleverer to 43 00:02:24,527 --> 00:02:27,727 Speaker 3: use the one thing on her side that would soon fade, 44 00:02:27,887 --> 00:02:30,207 Speaker 3: and that was her youth. She would go to Harvard 45 00:02:30,287 --> 00:02:33,607 Speaker 3: Business School like the actual location and purposely sit among 46 00:02:33,767 --> 00:02:36,847 Speaker 3: fifty of what she calls the world's most eligible bachelors. 47 00:02:37,487 --> 00:02:40,767 Speaker 3: She couldn't understand why her female classmates weren't joining her 48 00:02:41,087 --> 00:02:42,527 Speaker 3: her youth, as she understood it. 49 00:02:42,447 --> 00:02:47,847 Speaker 2: Because they had some self respect. 50 00:02:48,807 --> 00:02:52,287 Speaker 1: Sorry, I just want to understand this a little bit more. 51 00:02:52,327 --> 00:02:53,807 Speaker 1: I no, this is very nerdy. But so she was 52 00:02:53,807 --> 00:02:56,207 Speaker 1: studying at Harvard. She was probably starting, I don't know, whatever, 53 00:02:56,287 --> 00:02:58,567 Speaker 1: Bachelor of Arts, whatever you did, Harvard, right, But the 54 00:02:58,687 --> 00:03:01,687 Speaker 1: business school is quite specific and there are people of 55 00:03:01,767 --> 00:03:02,767 Speaker 1: school all ages at. 56 00:03:02,687 --> 00:03:04,567 Speaker 3: The How I understand it is I think the business 57 00:03:04,567 --> 00:03:06,927 Speaker 3: school is a little bit more postgraduate. Yeah, and if 58 00:03:06,927 --> 00:03:09,287 Speaker 3: you postgraduate, your older, right. So this is for the 59 00:03:09,327 --> 00:03:12,087 Speaker 3: big dogs who maybe already are running their own business, okay, 60 00:03:12,247 --> 00:03:15,847 Speaker 3: whereas all the other people are just silly undergrads Harvard yuck. Yeah, 61 00:03:15,887 --> 00:03:18,767 Speaker 3: So she thought, why not take advantage of this? Well, 62 00:03:18,847 --> 00:03:21,127 Speaker 3: I can this situation where I've got proximity to these 63 00:03:21,247 --> 00:03:23,927 Speaker 3: rich people. She met her husband at twenty when she 64 00:03:24,047 --> 00:03:27,007 Speaker 3: snuck into a graduate school event, and she fell in love. 65 00:03:27,607 --> 00:03:31,207 Speaker 3: Rather than get stuck in these discussions about fair and unfair, 66 00:03:31,447 --> 00:03:35,007 Speaker 3: equal or unequal, she says she preferred instead a thing 67 00:03:35,127 --> 00:03:39,287 Speaker 3: called ease. Christy rightly points out that every relationship is 68 00:03:39,327 --> 00:03:42,367 Speaker 3: a transaction, but many read her deal the trade she 69 00:03:42,527 --> 00:03:45,567 Speaker 3: made as a bad one. Her marriage, where she was younger, 70 00:03:45,647 --> 00:03:49,127 Speaker 3: more beautiful, he was older, more wealthy, was something those 71 00:03:49,287 --> 00:03:54,007 Speaker 3: around her took very personally, for example Holly. Meanwhile, she 72 00:03:54,167 --> 00:03:57,847 Speaker 3: says young women were bringing up young men, teaching them 73 00:03:57,887 --> 00:04:00,207 Speaker 3: to floss and do their washing before passing them over 74 00:04:00,367 --> 00:04:01,687 Speaker 3: to the person they'd marry. 75 00:04:01,767 --> 00:04:04,527 Speaker 1: In part of the essay, she talks about how when 76 00:04:04,567 --> 00:04:07,167 Speaker 1: we see her fifty year old walking down the street 77 00:04:07,167 --> 00:04:11,167 Speaker 1: with the twenty five year old, mentally make calculations like 78 00:04:11,207 --> 00:04:14,167 Speaker 1: who got the better deal. Yes, she talks about she 79 00:04:14,207 --> 00:04:17,927 Speaker 1: went very deliberately to this party. She snuck in. It was, 80 00:04:18,327 --> 00:04:20,207 Speaker 1: you know, graduates were there, so they were all older 81 00:04:20,247 --> 00:04:21,847 Speaker 1: than her. She said, I ate for free, I doubts 82 00:04:21,887 --> 00:04:23,967 Speaker 1: for free, and then one of the organizers asked me 83 00:04:24,007 --> 00:04:25,567 Speaker 1: to leave. I called anew but I got into it, 84 00:04:25,607 --> 00:04:27,687 Speaker 1: and then I got straight out when I saw this 85 00:04:27,767 --> 00:04:31,487 Speaker 1: guy walk out of the revolving doors. He was thirty. 86 00:04:31,727 --> 00:04:34,167 Speaker 1: Turns out he was French. She asked him for a cigarette. 87 00:04:34,207 --> 00:04:36,607 Speaker 1: They went on a date, and she said a really 88 00:04:36,687 --> 00:04:40,607 Speaker 1: interesting thing. She said, until then, I'd loved men in 89 00:04:40,647 --> 00:04:44,727 Speaker 1: the way that men usually love women, which is not 90 00:04:45,007 --> 00:04:48,487 Speaker 1: very well and kind of without a plan because she 91 00:04:48,647 --> 00:04:52,247 Speaker 1: was twenty. Yeah, and she said, but not this time. 92 00:04:52,407 --> 00:04:56,167 Speaker 1: This time, I filled his fridge with his favorite foods. 93 00:04:56,367 --> 00:04:59,087 Speaker 1: I spoke fondly of my family. I wrote a thank 94 00:04:59,127 --> 00:05:02,927 Speaker 1: you note to his mum. And basically she played the game. 95 00:05:02,967 --> 00:05:05,207 Speaker 1: She does say we did fall in love, so it's 96 00:05:05,287 --> 00:05:09,207 Speaker 1: not like she had to force herself. He was frenchship. 97 00:05:09,687 --> 00:05:13,287 Speaker 1: But she also said the way a decade year age 98 00:05:13,287 --> 00:05:16,807 Speaker 1: gap reads is different, Like she said, twenty to thirty 99 00:05:16,847 --> 00:05:19,327 Speaker 1: is very different to thirty and forty. And she said 100 00:05:19,367 --> 00:05:21,847 Speaker 1: that there was a lot of hostility from his friends, 101 00:05:21,847 --> 00:05:24,327 Speaker 1: and she was once in the bathroom and she heard 102 00:05:24,327 --> 00:05:27,487 Speaker 1: his female friends sort of saying, what does he see 103 00:05:27,487 --> 00:05:27,807 Speaker 1: in her? 104 00:05:28,127 --> 00:05:31,167 Speaker 3: Yeah, so the transaction feels personal. And also people would 105 00:05:31,167 --> 00:05:32,847 Speaker 3: look at it and be like, this is a terrible deal. 106 00:05:33,167 --> 00:05:34,887 Speaker 4: I know, it's like four yeah. 107 00:05:34,927 --> 00:05:37,647 Speaker 3: And ultimately, she writes, there is no brand of feminism 108 00:05:37,847 --> 00:05:41,487 Speaker 3: which has achieved female rest but what she earned herself 109 00:05:41,527 --> 00:05:44,567 Speaker 3: by marrying an older, richer man was that she got 110 00:05:44,687 --> 00:05:47,527 Speaker 3: some time and it alleviated the rush other women feel 111 00:05:47,567 --> 00:05:51,287 Speaker 3: to climb the corporate ladder while potentially planning a family Holly, 112 00:05:51,487 --> 00:05:53,647 Speaker 3: she says, she gets to live the life of a writer. 113 00:05:54,007 --> 00:05:56,167 Speaker 3: She has a lot of leisure time. Her life sounds 114 00:05:56,167 --> 00:05:57,807 Speaker 3: so aspirational. She has to go on holiday. 115 00:05:58,367 --> 00:06:00,407 Speaker 4: Do you regret not marrying an older richer man. 116 00:06:00,447 --> 00:06:02,007 Speaker 1: I think Helle's jealous. 117 00:06:02,127 --> 00:06:03,807 Speaker 4: That's what it is. I think that's why this feels 118 00:06:03,807 --> 00:06:04,727 Speaker 4: like a personal attack. 119 00:06:06,807 --> 00:06:08,807 Speaker 2: I don't know where to start with you, Stady a 120 00:06:08,807 --> 00:06:12,687 Speaker 2: therapist about your reaction to this essay. Discuss because I 121 00:06:12,847 --> 00:06:15,927 Speaker 2: entirely respect her choice to make her choices. But the 122 00:06:15,967 --> 00:06:18,887 Speaker 2: whole she chooses her choice. The whole a case for 123 00:06:18,967 --> 00:06:21,647 Speaker 2: marrying an older man. Yeah, the word that isn't in 124 00:06:21,647 --> 00:06:23,967 Speaker 2: that sentence that needs been there is a rich older man. 125 00:06:24,087 --> 00:06:25,687 Speaker 2: Is that very much needs to be in there, because 126 00:06:25,727 --> 00:06:30,727 Speaker 2: you can marry older men, some of them. Any exactly 127 00:06:31,327 --> 00:06:34,367 Speaker 2: what she's basically bought herself is like a five star 128 00:06:34,447 --> 00:06:38,247 Speaker 2: backpacking holiday right. Her twenties have been she says to herself, 129 00:06:38,287 --> 00:06:41,087 Speaker 2: traveling around the world, living in a beautiful apartment. There's 130 00:06:41,127 --> 00:06:43,367 Speaker 2: a bit in it where she talks about him showing 131 00:06:43,407 --> 00:06:45,367 Speaker 2: her where they were going to live, and she said 132 00:06:45,367 --> 00:06:48,007 Speaker 2: it was like she was introducing myself to me. This 133 00:06:48,087 --> 00:06:50,007 Speaker 2: is the wine we're going to drink. This is where 134 00:06:50,047 --> 00:06:53,087 Speaker 2: we live. This is like he is in control of 135 00:06:53,247 --> 00:06:56,567 Speaker 2: everything they do. It's not their apartment, it's his apartment. 136 00:06:56,647 --> 00:06:58,327 Speaker 2: She has to ask for the keys to get in 137 00:06:58,407 --> 00:07:00,807 Speaker 2: and out. It's his life and she's living in it. 138 00:07:01,127 --> 00:07:04,487 Speaker 2: And that might work really well for her, But the 139 00:07:04,527 --> 00:07:07,447 Speaker 2: way that she talks with the sort of disdain about 140 00:07:07,447 --> 00:07:10,607 Speaker 2: the people she knows who are like messily building a 141 00:07:10,647 --> 00:07:15,567 Speaker 2: life together or on their own or whatever, is really 142 00:07:16,687 --> 00:07:19,887 Speaker 2: judgmental because it assumes that everybody wants what she's got, 143 00:07:20,047 --> 00:07:22,607 Speaker 2: which is like she doesn't want to have a career. 144 00:07:22,647 --> 00:07:23,847 Speaker 2: I mean, she wants to be a writer, and she's 145 00:07:23,847 --> 00:07:26,207 Speaker 2: a beautiful writer. The essay is gorgeous, as one of 146 00:07:26,207 --> 00:07:28,887 Speaker 2: the reasons it's gone viral, I'm sure, but it's like, 147 00:07:29,007 --> 00:07:31,007 Speaker 2: I didn't want to have to do the crappy jobs 148 00:07:31,007 --> 00:07:33,047 Speaker 2: that most people have to do while they work their 149 00:07:33,047 --> 00:07:35,247 Speaker 2: way to a career that they actually love. I didn't 150 00:07:35,247 --> 00:07:37,087 Speaker 2: want to have to do any of that stuff. Well, 151 00:07:37,087 --> 00:07:39,567 Speaker 2: that's fine for her, but it kind of makes this 152 00:07:39,647 --> 00:07:43,887 Speaker 2: assumption that we could all by ourselves some ease if 153 00:07:43,887 --> 00:07:46,647 Speaker 2: we just agreed to hunt down a dude who is 154 00:07:46,687 --> 00:07:48,927 Speaker 2: going to pay for everything, which I just find regressive 155 00:07:48,927 --> 00:07:49,527 Speaker 2: and dangerous. 156 00:07:50,127 --> 00:07:52,327 Speaker 1: I was trying to summon feelings when I read this, 157 00:07:52,447 --> 00:07:54,607 Speaker 1: because I was like, this is the piece that's gone 158 00:07:54,687 --> 00:07:57,247 Speaker 1: viral and everyone's talking about it, and people seem to 159 00:07:57,287 --> 00:08:00,287 Speaker 1: have really strong feelings about it, and I read it 160 00:08:00,367 --> 00:08:03,047 Speaker 1: and I could not summon a strong feeling, and I 161 00:08:03,087 --> 00:08:07,247 Speaker 1: don't know why. Am I broken. I feel like just 162 00:08:07,327 --> 00:08:10,287 Speaker 1: what she says is kind of obvious, and I don't 163 00:08:11,367 --> 00:08:16,447 Speaker 1: feel defensive about it. I don't feel incredulous or insulted. 164 00:08:16,527 --> 00:08:19,247 Speaker 1: It just seems really obvious. 165 00:08:19,407 --> 00:08:22,687 Speaker 2: But she doesn't feel, to you, very old fashioned. This 166 00:08:22,807 --> 00:08:26,087 Speaker 2: is what every movie's ever been about, like older rich man, 167 00:08:26,327 --> 00:08:29,047 Speaker 2: young beautiful woman. You get to live this life for 168 00:08:29,087 --> 00:08:31,527 Speaker 2: a while, then he'll probably pass you over for a 169 00:08:31,567 --> 00:08:33,967 Speaker 2: new model. And she does say that the only time 170 00:08:34,047 --> 00:08:37,207 Speaker 2: that she gets worried is when she realizes that if 171 00:08:37,247 --> 00:08:39,687 Speaker 2: he betrayed her and she would have to take a stand, 172 00:08:40,527 --> 00:08:43,167 Speaker 2: she would lose everything, right like she lose the beautiful 173 00:08:43,167 --> 00:08:46,007 Speaker 2: house and the holidays and all those things. She said, 174 00:08:46,047 --> 00:08:48,567 Speaker 2: she realized that too much work had left my husband 175 00:08:48,567 --> 00:08:51,447 Speaker 2: by thirty jaded and uninspired. He'd burnt out. But I 176 00:08:51,447 --> 00:08:54,247 Speaker 2: could re enchant things. I danced at restaurants when they 177 00:08:54,287 --> 00:08:57,127 Speaker 2: played a song I liked. I turned grocery shopping into 178 00:08:57,127 --> 00:09:02,727 Speaker 2: an adventure, pleased by what I provided. He needed someone 179 00:09:02,727 --> 00:09:05,247 Speaker 2: smart enough to sustain his interest, but flexible enough in 180 00:09:05,247 --> 00:09:08,047 Speaker 2: her habits to build them around his hours. I could, 181 00:09:08,167 --> 00:09:11,007 Speaker 2: I do. I make my self free. I materialized beside 182 00:09:11,047 --> 00:09:12,007 Speaker 2: him when he calls for me. 183 00:09:12,327 --> 00:09:13,407 Speaker 4: She is a puppy. 184 00:09:13,607 --> 00:09:16,247 Speaker 2: She is a cute puppy, and the puppy will grow 185 00:09:16,287 --> 00:09:18,967 Speaker 2: into a dog, and then you want another cute puppy 186 00:09:19,087 --> 00:09:21,607 Speaker 2: where she's not building anything of her own. 187 00:09:21,767 --> 00:09:24,127 Speaker 4: Where's the space for meaning in this life? And this 188 00:09:24,207 --> 00:09:24,527 Speaker 4: is the thing? 189 00:09:24,607 --> 00:09:24,727 Speaker 1: Right. 190 00:09:24,767 --> 00:09:27,047 Speaker 4: I read this and I went, I know women. 191 00:09:27,647 --> 00:09:27,887 Speaker 1: I know. 192 00:09:27,967 --> 00:09:29,927 Speaker 3: If I asked them straight up, did you marry that 193 00:09:29,967 --> 00:09:33,047 Speaker 3: person for money? They would say yes. And I have 194 00:09:33,127 --> 00:09:35,967 Speaker 3: had a real issue with that and dealt with my 195 00:09:36,087 --> 00:09:40,607 Speaker 3: own judgment because I've gone it's a transaction. I superficially 196 00:09:40,607 --> 00:09:42,687 Speaker 3: would go, I know why he married you. You were 197 00:09:42,687 --> 00:09:44,167 Speaker 3: able to give him more children? 198 00:09:44,247 --> 00:09:46,647 Speaker 1: Is in every relationship some kind of transaction. 199 00:09:47,207 --> 00:09:50,087 Speaker 3: But the reason why I thought about this, the reason 200 00:09:50,127 --> 00:09:53,327 Speaker 3: why this transaction riles me is twofold. The first is 201 00:09:53,767 --> 00:09:58,367 Speaker 3: she's offering advice, and this advice is dangerous. It's regressive, 202 00:09:58,407 --> 00:10:00,167 Speaker 3: and it has made women miserable for a lot of 203 00:10:00,167 --> 00:10:03,527 Speaker 3: excus Why is it dangerous because it is telling women 204 00:10:03,847 --> 00:10:04,927 Speaker 3: You're the one who always. 205 00:10:04,727 --> 00:10:08,767 Speaker 1: Says tells a financial plan and everything plan. 206 00:10:09,247 --> 00:10:12,207 Speaker 3: And the second reason why this is not a good 207 00:10:12,207 --> 00:10:14,607 Speaker 3: long term solution is that the issue with finding a 208 00:10:14,647 --> 00:10:18,087 Speaker 3: man who loves a compliance submissive twenty something year old 209 00:10:18,527 --> 00:10:20,927 Speaker 3: is when you become a thirty something year old, he 210 00:10:20,967 --> 00:10:25,327 Speaker 3: probably still wants a compliance submissive twenty something year old. 211 00:10:25,367 --> 00:10:26,327 Speaker 4: And then what do you do? 212 00:10:26,887 --> 00:10:30,567 Speaker 1: And Taylor Swift's lyrics when she sang about Jillenhall, no 213 00:10:30,687 --> 00:10:32,087 Speaker 1: I was never good. 214 00:10:32,207 --> 00:10:37,647 Speaker 2: It's hell joges, but the Punchland goes, I'll get Oh 215 00:10:37,967 --> 00:10:40,767 Speaker 2: the butcher lovers staying my. 216 00:10:41,167 --> 00:10:42,967 Speaker 4: Age from when you're brother. 217 00:10:43,447 --> 00:10:45,967 Speaker 2: Yeah, I say, it's not about the age gap, right. 218 00:10:46,007 --> 00:10:47,967 Speaker 2: This is what's interesting about this the case for marrying 219 00:10:47,967 --> 00:10:51,167 Speaker 2: an older man, the age thing is almost irrelevant, except 220 00:10:51,207 --> 00:10:53,687 Speaker 2: in as much in this is she deliberately wanted someone 221 00:10:53,767 --> 00:10:55,847 Speaker 2: much more well established so they could look after her. 222 00:10:56,087 --> 00:10:56,247 Speaker 1: Right. 223 00:10:56,327 --> 00:10:58,487 Speaker 2: So that's the age piece. But as we said, not 224 00:10:58,567 --> 00:11:03,487 Speaker 2: all older men are rich. And her specific financial thing. 225 00:11:03,407 --> 00:11:06,967 Speaker 3: Yeah, and her worldview, she sees it as this very 226 00:11:07,007 --> 00:11:10,367 Speaker 3: obvious thing, and I don't think she realizes that that 227 00:11:10,447 --> 00:11:14,607 Speaker 3: dynamic does not exist in every partnership, and in fact, 228 00:11:14,607 --> 00:11:18,247 Speaker 3: a lot of people are marrying for reasons that are 229 00:11:18,247 --> 00:11:22,327 Speaker 3: not financial or are not necessarily to do with power. 230 00:11:22,527 --> 00:11:26,087 Speaker 3: So she's saying basically that within the institution of marriage, 231 00:11:26,207 --> 00:11:29,367 Speaker 3: women's value is decreasing at the same time that men's 232 00:11:29,407 --> 00:11:32,087 Speaker 3: value is increasing, and that happens with eight. She describes 233 00:11:32,087 --> 00:11:34,407 Speaker 3: it as like a funnel, like women are on this 234 00:11:34,647 --> 00:11:37,367 Speaker 3: funnel where things are getting slimmer and slimmer and slimmer 235 00:11:37,367 --> 00:11:39,607 Speaker 3: in terms of opportunities, and men's are getting broader and 236 00:11:39,647 --> 00:11:40,367 Speaker 3: broader and broader. 237 00:11:40,767 --> 00:11:43,367 Speaker 2: But to agree with that, you have to completely discount 238 00:11:43,407 --> 00:11:45,007 Speaker 2: all of the work that we've been doing in the 239 00:11:45,087 --> 00:11:47,527 Speaker 2: last fifty years to make women's value a lot more. 240 00:11:47,327 --> 00:11:50,087 Speaker 4: Than just value of being a human being. We have 241 00:11:50,207 --> 00:11:53,367 Speaker 4: thoughts and ideas, and you guys are idealistic. What I 242 00:11:53,407 --> 00:11:54,407 Speaker 4: thought was interesting. 243 00:11:54,567 --> 00:11:57,887 Speaker 1: I commend you for that. It's not a criticism. What 244 00:11:58,327 --> 00:12:03,367 Speaker 1: I found interesting apart from she just liked the holidays. 245 00:12:03,087 --> 00:12:04,407 Speaker 2: Which I mean I would like that. 246 00:12:06,247 --> 00:12:08,847 Speaker 1: Lack of friction and the lack of having to strive. 247 00:12:09,887 --> 00:12:15,327 Speaker 1: To me, it was also about the attraction to someone 248 00:12:15,327 --> 00:12:19,087 Speaker 1: who was already formed. That was interesting. It meant that 249 00:12:19,207 --> 00:12:23,447 Speaker 1: the mental labor of having to work out who she 250 00:12:23,807 --> 00:12:26,767 Speaker 1: was what she liked, having to kiss a lot of frogs, 251 00:12:27,007 --> 00:12:30,447 Speaker 1: not just in romantic relationships, but like having the wrong jobs, 252 00:12:30,487 --> 00:12:33,367 Speaker 1: living in the wrong places, like that struggle. He was 253 00:12:33,647 --> 00:12:37,647 Speaker 1: just further down the road, and she wanted to just 254 00:12:37,967 --> 00:12:41,927 Speaker 1: fast track at a decade oudulthood. She wanted to skip 255 00:12:41,967 --> 00:12:42,767 Speaker 1: the messy part. 256 00:12:43,247 --> 00:12:44,967 Speaker 2: But the thing is, and again this is why it 257 00:12:45,127 --> 00:12:47,767 Speaker 2: might be a perfect choice for her, but the fun 258 00:12:47,967 --> 00:12:50,607 Speaker 2: is in the figuring it out, like having a life 259 00:12:50,727 --> 00:12:52,367 Speaker 2: just handed to you on a plate, like this is 260 00:12:52,407 --> 00:12:55,007 Speaker 2: literally what he did, this is where we live, this 261 00:12:55,047 --> 00:12:56,767 Speaker 2: is where we're going there. It's lovely for her, but 262 00:12:56,847 --> 00:13:00,047 Speaker 2: like I can honestly say, with the age in hindsight 263 00:13:00,087 --> 00:13:02,287 Speaker 2: and even all the difficult times in the skin times, 264 00:13:02,287 --> 00:13:04,967 Speaker 2: and that that's where the fun is. Like I don't know, 265 00:13:05,287 --> 00:13:07,807 Speaker 2: it doesn't appeal to me except for five minutes. 266 00:13:07,607 --> 00:13:09,607 Speaker 3: On the surface, it seems like she's happy and she's 267 00:13:09,647 --> 00:13:12,767 Speaker 3: offering advice. If there are a few very very telling 268 00:13:12,807 --> 00:13:16,127 Speaker 3: lines about there's only so many times you can say 269 00:13:16,127 --> 00:13:19,207 Speaker 3: thank you to someone, and there was some line about 270 00:13:19,207 --> 00:13:21,807 Speaker 3: almost being told that you're ungrateful or that you're not 271 00:13:22,007 --> 00:13:26,127 Speaker 3: being thankful enough sup supportive enough, is code for you're 272 00:13:26,167 --> 00:13:26,767 Speaker 3: indebted to me. 273 00:13:27,047 --> 00:13:30,767 Speaker 2: Because also, if she's writing a novel, unsurprisingly, she's probably 274 00:13:30,807 --> 00:13:32,807 Speaker 2: going to get big money for it after this viral essay. 275 00:13:33,167 --> 00:13:34,327 Speaker 4: If her work does. 276 00:13:34,127 --> 00:13:38,007 Speaker 2: Become demanding and she cannot be constantly available to literally 277 00:13:38,087 --> 00:13:40,927 Speaker 2: materialize beside him when he calls for me, as she says, 278 00:13:41,207 --> 00:13:43,167 Speaker 2: he's not going to like that. That's not the way 279 00:13:43,207 --> 00:13:44,127 Speaker 2: it works. No. 280 00:13:43,927 --> 00:13:47,167 Speaker 1: I once had a conversation. I was sitting next to 281 00:13:47,207 --> 00:13:50,287 Speaker 1: this guy at a dinner and he was very wealthy, 282 00:13:50,687 --> 00:13:57,087 Speaker 1: and he liked the idea of a partner who was 283 00:13:57,287 --> 00:14:01,567 Speaker 1: kind of like me, like ambitious and feisty and all 284 00:14:01,607 --> 00:14:05,887 Speaker 1: of that stuff. But when we spoke more, and he 285 00:14:05,927 --> 00:14:09,327 Speaker 1: wasn't propositioning me or anything, but when we were talking 286 00:14:09,367 --> 00:14:12,767 Speaker 1: about what he needed from his partner, it was exactly 287 00:14:12,807 --> 00:14:15,807 Speaker 1: what you said. It was a kavoodal. Essentially, it was 288 00:14:15,847 --> 00:14:19,807 Speaker 1: someone a skeleton that they were just really malleable around 289 00:14:19,847 --> 00:14:22,327 Speaker 1: his life because when he needed to go overseas and 290 00:14:22,407 --> 00:14:26,567 Speaker 1: play polo or when he needed to he wanted someone 291 00:14:26,607 --> 00:14:29,247 Speaker 1: who could just drop everything and be with him. But 292 00:14:29,287 --> 00:14:31,407 Speaker 1: then he was also frustrated by that because he said, 293 00:14:31,407 --> 00:14:34,167 Speaker 1: I would come home and I'll say to you know, 294 00:14:34,327 --> 00:14:38,447 Speaker 1: the pretty model, Oh, I'm so stressed at work, and 295 00:14:38,487 --> 00:14:41,207 Speaker 1: she would go, Babe, just quit, you know, We'll just 296 00:14:41,247 --> 00:14:44,847 Speaker 1: move to the South of France and just get high. Yeah, 297 00:14:45,207 --> 00:14:47,367 Speaker 1: because her life could be that. So she wasn't his 298 00:14:47,447 --> 00:14:51,167 Speaker 1: intellectual equal, but his intellectual equal was not going to 299 00:14:51,247 --> 00:14:52,487 Speaker 1: logistically fit in his life. 300 00:14:52,567 --> 00:14:55,807 Speaker 2: It's very interesting. It's interesting as why this essay went viral, right, 301 00:14:55,887 --> 00:14:58,967 Speaker 2: And as I've said, it's a beautifully written personal essay. 302 00:14:59,367 --> 00:15:01,487 Speaker 2: But to me, it feels part of this whole thing 303 00:15:01,487 --> 00:15:03,327 Speaker 2: that I'm seeing everywhere I look at the minute about 304 00:15:03,407 --> 00:15:06,687 Speaker 2: trad wives, stay at home girlfriend's soft girls. I'm not 305 00:15:06,727 --> 00:15:09,167 Speaker 2: saying that there isn't credence and credibility to what she 306 00:15:09,447 --> 00:15:12,167 Speaker 2: saying about. When I think of same age, same stage relationships, 307 00:15:12,207 --> 00:15:13,847 Speaker 2: what I tend to picture as a woman who's doing 308 00:15:13,887 --> 00:15:16,687 Speaker 2: too much for too little. That's really interesting, and her 309 00:15:16,687 --> 00:15:19,167 Speaker 2: point about no view of feminism having ease in it, 310 00:15:19,247 --> 00:15:22,087 Speaker 2: She's not wrong. I think that all of this sort 311 00:15:22,087 --> 00:15:26,447 Speaker 2: of yearning for this kind of easy, soft life where 312 00:15:26,487 --> 00:15:29,607 Speaker 2: someone looks after you is a very understandable reaction to 313 00:15:29,647 --> 00:15:31,727 Speaker 2: what we're seeing all around us, which is the reality 314 00:15:31,767 --> 00:15:34,487 Speaker 2: for women is that mostly they're doing everything all the time. 315 00:15:34,567 --> 00:15:36,887 Speaker 2: It's the opposite of ease. They've got the job, but 316 00:15:36,887 --> 00:15:39,887 Speaker 2: they're also taking care of this boy child you know, 317 00:15:39,927 --> 00:15:42,927 Speaker 2: who is supposed to be their partner, but really isn't 318 00:15:42,967 --> 00:15:45,727 Speaker 2: doing his like looking after himself and looking after a 319 00:15:45,767 --> 00:15:48,367 Speaker 2: home and looking after kids, and looking after their extended 320 00:15:48,367 --> 00:15:52,367 Speaker 2: family and all of those things. It's very understandable that 321 00:15:52,407 --> 00:15:56,647 Speaker 2: there's like this attractive pull, whether it's through lovely, hazy 322 00:15:56,687 --> 00:15:59,927 Speaker 2: pictures on Instagram or beautiful essays like this about like 323 00:16:00,007 --> 00:16:02,487 Speaker 2: my life is there's time for me. I get to 324 00:16:02,487 --> 00:16:04,527 Speaker 2: wander around and think thoughts and look. 325 00:16:04,367 --> 00:16:09,527 Speaker 4: At flowers and sounds great. But how much agent do 326 00:16:09,607 --> 00:16:09,847 Speaker 4: you have? 327 00:16:10,047 --> 00:16:12,447 Speaker 1: Well? Agency is the most important thing for everybody, it's 328 00:16:12,487 --> 00:16:14,047 Speaker 1: not and I think that we have to be careful 329 00:16:14,087 --> 00:16:17,447 Speaker 1: of not projecting our values onto other people. But you know, 330 00:16:19,287 --> 00:16:20,447 Speaker 1: you know, and mind independent. 331 00:16:20,887 --> 00:16:22,687 Speaker 2: It's one of my very highly value. 332 00:16:22,847 --> 00:16:25,927 Speaker 1: Yes, to be clear, I agree with you. But where 333 00:16:25,927 --> 00:16:30,007 Speaker 1: these relationships come unstuck is when kids come along. Because 334 00:16:30,727 --> 00:16:35,007 Speaker 1: she's able to supplicate her desires, her wants, her needs 335 00:16:35,447 --> 00:16:37,447 Speaker 1: to him and make him the center of the universe. 336 00:16:37,487 --> 00:16:40,647 Speaker 1: When a child comes along, suddenly he's not the center 337 00:16:40,687 --> 00:16:43,247 Speaker 1: of the universe. He goes down on the leaderboard to 338 00:16:43,687 --> 00:16:46,047 Speaker 1: number two, or at least he should when there's a 339 00:16:46,127 --> 00:16:49,687 Speaker 1: baby in the house and newborn baby, and that tends 340 00:16:49,727 --> 00:16:52,567 Speaker 1: to really mess with the dynamic or do they have. 341 00:16:52,527 --> 00:16:54,607 Speaker 3: The perfect dynamic for a baby to come along? And 342 00:16:54,607 --> 00:16:57,167 Speaker 3: in fact, that's why this went viral because the dynamic, 343 00:16:57,407 --> 00:17:00,407 Speaker 3: it's obvious the baby comes along, very obvious who's going 344 00:17:00,447 --> 00:17:02,647 Speaker 3: to look after the baby? They have room in that 345 00:17:02,727 --> 00:17:06,607 Speaker 3: relationship for a baby, whereas it's almost like what she. 346 00:17:06,807 --> 00:17:09,207 Speaker 1: Don't know what gives her babying of him? 347 00:17:09,487 --> 00:17:11,887 Speaker 3: Well, it is clear that he's the one with the 348 00:17:11,967 --> 00:17:13,727 Speaker 3: career who gets to go and pursue this. 349 00:17:13,927 --> 00:17:15,487 Speaker 4: She's about to get a book deal. 350 00:17:15,647 --> 00:17:17,447 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, but she's playing that down very much 351 00:17:17,487 --> 00:17:20,047 Speaker 3: because she likes the holidays. But I thought that it 352 00:17:20,087 --> 00:17:23,967 Speaker 3: was almost saying this approach to life where we just 353 00:17:24,127 --> 00:17:27,047 Speaker 3: accept gender dynamics as they are. We accept the way 354 00:17:27,087 --> 00:17:31,007 Speaker 3: that society values women and we play by those rules. 355 00:17:31,007 --> 00:17:33,767 Speaker 3: Means that I can take my time and then before motherhood, 356 00:17:33,767 --> 00:17:35,687 Speaker 3: I've had the holidays, I've had the rest, and I'm 357 00:17:35,727 --> 00:17:38,407 Speaker 3: ready to look after a baby. If you compare that 358 00:17:38,527 --> 00:17:41,967 Speaker 3: to the relationship like lucronize relationship, where we're both on 359 00:17:42,007 --> 00:17:44,207 Speaker 3: this treadmill to work, work, work, work, work, work, work, 360 00:17:44,527 --> 00:17:46,647 Speaker 3: and then the baby comes, it's like divorce. 361 00:17:47,567 --> 00:17:48,287 Speaker 1: What time is it. 362 00:17:49,207 --> 00:17:51,287 Speaker 3: You've got two people who are heavily invested in their 363 00:17:51,287 --> 00:17:54,047 Speaker 3: careers looking at each other going, wait, what was the plan? 364 00:17:54,527 --> 00:17:54,647 Speaker 1: Like? 365 00:17:55,167 --> 00:17:57,167 Speaker 4: So, I think that's almost what this is a reflection 366 00:17:57,247 --> 00:17:57,607 Speaker 4: of as. 367 00:17:57,527 --> 00:18:02,047 Speaker 3: Well, is that the disillusionment feminism has set up isn't 368 00:18:02,407 --> 00:18:04,607 Speaker 3: working either, and the fact that this is a reaction 369 00:18:05,247 --> 00:18:07,687 Speaker 3: to that, to me, that's what's. 370 00:18:07,407 --> 00:18:10,407 Speaker 2: But it's not feminism that doesn't work, right, I agree, 371 00:18:10,607 --> 00:18:12,807 Speaker 2: I know what I was just saying. I think it's 372 00:18:12,807 --> 00:18:15,127 Speaker 2: a reaction to going hold on, I'm still doing everything. 373 00:18:15,567 --> 00:18:17,127 Speaker 2: I thought this was going to be a fifty to 374 00:18:17,167 --> 00:18:21,527 Speaker 2: fifty situation, and it's not. It's not feminism's fault. I love, 375 00:18:21,567 --> 00:18:25,087 Speaker 2: there's a problem in that fifty to fifty time. The 376 00:18:25,167 --> 00:18:27,007 Speaker 2: other part of it isn't doing everything. 377 00:18:27,607 --> 00:18:29,647 Speaker 3: There's a line in it where she says, when we 378 00:18:29,687 --> 00:18:31,527 Speaker 3: decided we wanted to be equal to men, we got 379 00:18:31,527 --> 00:18:34,807 Speaker 3: on men's time. Of course, the problem with that is 380 00:18:34,847 --> 00:18:37,087 Speaker 3: that if you want to have babies, you turn around 381 00:18:37,087 --> 00:18:39,127 Speaker 3: and then you've got the mental load of that at thirty. 382 00:18:39,647 --> 00:18:41,647 Speaker 3: You never get sort of your room of one's own. 383 00:18:41,767 --> 00:18:45,967 Speaker 3: That kind of women the feminists thought we might half 384 00:18:45,967 --> 00:18:48,847 Speaker 3: a century ago. I can see how there's something aspirational 385 00:18:48,887 --> 00:18:51,167 Speaker 3: about that. But then there was a really good critique 386 00:18:51,207 --> 00:18:54,607 Speaker 3: which basically said, this is the Republican plan from others, like, 387 00:18:54,687 --> 00:18:57,647 Speaker 3: this is the conservative plan in the US, And this 388 00:18:57,727 --> 00:19:01,207 Speaker 3: is my theory exactly. This is my theory about why 389 00:19:01,207 --> 00:19:05,007 Speaker 3: we're seeing this tradwife, soft girl retreating to the home. 390 00:19:05,047 --> 00:19:08,487 Speaker 3: Thing is that one is like a counter cultural reaction 391 00:19:08,727 --> 00:19:11,567 Speaker 3: to the feminism has got to, but the other is 392 00:19:11,607 --> 00:19:15,407 Speaker 3: a pushed republican conservative agenda because women aren't having enough 393 00:19:15,407 --> 00:19:20,367 Speaker 3: babies progressive like in western countries, we're not replacing the 394 00:19:20,407 --> 00:19:23,887 Speaker 3: population enough, and you're seeing this very unsubtleed messaging which 395 00:19:23,927 --> 00:19:25,847 Speaker 3: is like women go back home and have more babies, please. 396 00:19:25,687 --> 00:19:27,927 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. And it's also what comes from governments 397 00:19:27,927 --> 00:19:30,207 Speaker 2: whenever they want women to get out of the workforce 398 00:19:30,207 --> 00:19:32,207 Speaker 2: and make more room for the guys. Like, let's be honest, 399 00:19:32,607 --> 00:19:35,087 Speaker 2: men are being pushed out of the workforce by smart women, 400 00:19:35,527 --> 00:19:38,767 Speaker 2: and like, in another generation, women's value in society won't 401 00:19:38,767 --> 00:19:41,087 Speaker 2: be how young they look. It just won't be so 402 00:19:41,287 --> 00:19:43,407 Speaker 2: Please if you want to keep that going, and you 403 00:19:43,447 --> 00:19:45,767 Speaker 2: want your independence and you want your choices, don't be 404 00:19:45,847 --> 00:19:48,847 Speaker 2: sucked into this bullshit, unless, of course, you can find 405 00:19:49,007 --> 00:19:50,367 Speaker 2: a really lovely billionaire. 406 00:19:51,967 --> 00:19:52,687 Speaker 1: Actually fair. 407 00:20:01,287 --> 00:20:03,527 Speaker 2: Did you enjoy that Out louders, Of course you did. 408 00:20:04,367 --> 00:20:07,287 Speaker 2: If you want more, there's more. Listen out for more 409 00:20:07,367 --> 00:20:10,047 Speaker 2: out loud Hot Pod summer episodes wherever you listen to 410 00:20:10,047 --> 00:20:14,047 Speaker 2: your favorite shows, including exclusive new subscribe episodes that you 411 00:20:14,127 --> 00:20:16,567 Speaker 2: definitely won't want to miss. You'll find the link in 412 00:20:16,607 --> 00:20:19,887 Speaker 2: the show notes. And a huge thank you to all our 413 00:20:19,927 --> 00:20:20,927 Speaker 2: current subscribers.