WEBVTT - Something Is Not Right About Phoebe's Fall 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.182 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.702 the traditional owners of land and wortars. This podcast was 0:00:19.742 --> 0:00:26.822 recorded on It's eleven forty four AM on December two, 0:00:27.022 --> 0:00:30.022 twenty ten, in Melbourne and Phoebe Hans Juck and her 0:00:30.062 --> 0:00:34.062 dog Yoshi are captured on security camera. They're leaving the 0:00:34.142 --> 0:00:36.822 luxury apartment building on Saint Kilda Road she shares with 0:00:36.862 --> 0:00:41.182 her boyfriend as a fire alarm sounds. She returns six 0:00:41.222 --> 0:00:45.862 minutes later. It's the last time she's ever seen alive. 0:00:50.742 --> 0:00:54.382 After that short clip, we know she consumes enough alcohol 0:00:54.502 --> 0:00:58.182 to put her three times over the legal limit. Traces 0:00:58.222 --> 0:01:01.622 of a sleeping pill are found in her system, according 0:01:01.702 --> 0:01:04.462 to police. At some point over the course of the evening, 0:01:04.822 --> 0:01:08.302 Phoebe exits her apartment and enters her floor's rubbish chute, 0:01:09.262 --> 0:01:14.182 falling twelve floor into a wheelie bin. She survives, but 0:01:14.302 --> 0:01:17.462 her right foot is almost severed by the compactor's blade, 0:01:17.902 --> 0:01:20.822 and in a last bid for life, she drags herself 0:01:20.822 --> 0:01:24.382 around the room looking for an exit. She doesn't find it. 0:01:25.342 --> 0:01:28.422 Her body is found by a concierge at seven pm. 0:01:30.022 --> 0:01:34.142 Her death is ruled a suicide, then an accident, but 0:01:34.222 --> 0:01:38.462 those explanations have never made sense to her family. How 0:01:38.462 --> 0:01:41.342 did she get into the shoot? Why did she get 0:01:41.342 --> 0:01:46.022 into the shoot? Did the police and the coroner get 0:01:46.062 --> 0:01:58.982 it wrong? I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations, 0:01:59.382 --> 0:02:02.942 a Muma Mere podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes 0:02:03.342 --> 0:02:06.462 by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 0:02:06.822 --> 0:02:09.662 The garbage shoot at Phoebe's apartment was one of those 0:02:09.662 --> 0:02:12.662 ones that you open via a handle about halfway up 0:02:12.702 --> 0:02:16.462 the wall. It swings open on an angle, revealing a 0:02:16.502 --> 0:02:20.342 twenty two centimeter latch opening. It's a pretty awkward hole 0:02:20.462 --> 0:02:23.622 to maneuver yourself into, and watching the recreation of how 0:02:23.662 --> 0:02:26.822 Phoebe might have managed it on Channel nine's Under Investigation, 0:02:27.422 --> 0:02:29.502 it looks almost impossible. 0:02:29.982 --> 0:02:30.942 It's very tight. 0:02:31.462 --> 0:02:35.342 In her second attempt, Daniel pulls herself up, but it 0:02:35.462 --> 0:02:41.782 takes all her strength, balance and coordination. It's just one 0:02:41.862 --> 0:02:44.742 of a long list of questions that remain unanswered in 0:02:44.782 --> 0:02:48.142 this case, a story that has been covered in depth 0:02:48.502 --> 0:02:52.702 by multi award winning investigative journalist Richard Baker, whose podcast 0:02:52.822 --> 0:02:56.582 Phoebe's Fall for the Age, hosted with Michael Bachelard, worked 0:02:56.582 --> 0:02:59.422 closely with Phoebe's family to try and figure out what 0:02:59.622 --> 0:03:03.102 really happened to her. It's a case that has baffled 0:03:03.142 --> 0:03:07.342 and angered the Australian public, and fourteen years later, many 0:03:07.382 --> 0:03:10.942 of the questions asked by Phoebe's fall remain a miss. 0:03:11.542 --> 0:03:19.822 Richard joins us. Now, Richard, how was Phoebe's body discovered 0:03:20.102 --> 0:03:23.302 and what happened as police arrived on that scene. 0:03:23.542 --> 0:03:27.902 Phoebe's body was found in the garbage refuse room of 0:03:27.942 --> 0:03:31.222 this really fancy apartment building in Sint Kilda Road in 0:03:31.262 --> 0:03:36.582 Melbourne around seven pm by the concierge or a cleaner 0:03:36.902 --> 0:03:39.342 going about her work. She was just trying to put 0:03:39.342 --> 0:03:41.982 a broom back or something and felt that there was 0:03:42.022 --> 0:03:44.742 a weight against the door and had trouble opening it 0:03:44.862 --> 0:03:48.742 and eventually got it open and they're lying in a 0:03:48.742 --> 0:03:52.102 pool of blood. Was Phoebe And so what happened from there? 0:03:52.142 --> 0:03:55.662 Obviously you know, police and emergency services were called and 0:03:56.182 --> 0:04:00.022 pretty quickly the building started to fill up with police 0:04:00.062 --> 0:04:04.702 and ambulance officers. Interestingly, the ambulance officers didn't go and 0:04:04.822 --> 0:04:08.702 check for proof of life, which I found a bit troubling, 0:04:08.742 --> 0:04:11.622 and I know that troubled members of Phoebe's family, but 0:04:11.822 --> 0:04:14.222 the police had already made an assessment that she was well, 0:04:14.262 --> 0:04:18.782 I'm truly gone, and then it was really about talking 0:04:18.902 --> 0:04:23.702 to her de facto partner, Ant Hample and trying to 0:04:23.742 --> 0:04:25.742 piece together her movements of that day. 0:04:26.462 --> 0:04:30.622 How quickly did the police start talking about suicide. 0:04:30.422 --> 0:04:33.542 Well, from what we know and from the coroner's inquest, 0:04:34.142 --> 0:04:37.822 from the word go, that was in the backdrop of 0:04:37.902 --> 0:04:41.342 all the conversations about what might have happened there, I know, 0:04:42.022 --> 0:04:46.782 and had mentioned that she was mentally unwell at the 0:04:46.862 --> 0:04:50.622 time in his opinion, and she was seeking some treatment 0:04:51.102 --> 0:04:55.102 and care from the medical profession for her mental health. 0:04:56.062 --> 0:05:00.422 And within two days the homicide squad had pretty much 0:05:00.462 --> 0:05:03.582 written it off as a suicide, and that meant the 0:05:03.702 --> 0:05:08.822 case then was bound for the coroner, and a detective 0:05:08.862 --> 0:05:12.822 from the nearest police station, South Melbourne was assigned the 0:05:12.902 --> 0:05:16.742 job of putting together the brief of evidence. It was 0:05:16.782 --> 0:05:21.302 a really quick judgment called to make and something I've 0:05:21.342 --> 0:05:24.302 never seen happen so quickly, and any other high profile 0:05:25.062 --> 0:05:29.942 death in a suspicious circumstance involving you know, a young 0:05:29.942 --> 0:05:33.102 woman or a woman in that de facto or intimate 0:05:33.142 --> 0:05:35.062 partner setting let's. 0:05:34.822 --> 0:05:38.822 Paint the picture of Phoebe's life at the time a bit. 0:05:39.022 --> 0:05:42.582 She was, you know, twenty four living with her boyfriend 0:05:43.022 --> 0:05:44.862 who you mentioned. Can you tell us a bit more 0:05:44.902 --> 0:05:46.662 about the life she was living. 0:05:47.702 --> 0:05:50.542 On the surface, it looked like a pretty good life. 0:05:50.582 --> 0:05:54.342 I managed a vibrant twenty four year old, you know, 0:05:54.822 --> 0:06:00.222 stunning looking young woman, big personality, from a loving family. 0:06:00.502 --> 0:06:02.422 You know, her family and her friends would conceive a 0:06:02.462 --> 0:06:04.742 bit of a wild child, loved a party, but could 0:06:04.742 --> 0:06:08.422 also then get like many of us buyer's remorse after 0:06:08.462 --> 0:06:09.502 too good a time. 0:06:09.662 --> 0:06:13.262 And a bit like and a bit down. And yeah, 0:06:13.342 --> 0:06:14.862 she mixed. 0:06:15.262 --> 0:06:18.902 And through her boyfriend and his connections. He was quite 0:06:18.942 --> 0:06:22.622 a bit older and from a very established Melbourne legal family, 0:06:22.942 --> 0:06:26.022 and worked and it still works in the events and 0:06:26.182 --> 0:06:29.462 entertainment space, going to a lot of parties, meeting a 0:06:29.462 --> 0:06:32.742 lot of quite hip and happening on the move people. 0:06:33.182 --> 0:06:38.382 So it was a pretty full long lifestyle. And yeah, 0:06:38.422 --> 0:06:40.662 I think her family and friends would have said that 0:06:40.742 --> 0:06:44.662 she did have her battles with alcohol and occasional drug 0:06:44.782 --> 0:06:48.462 use and stuff like that, but you know, quite common 0:06:48.502 --> 0:06:52.582 for people in their early to mid twenties to be 0:06:53.062 --> 0:06:54.422 doing all that sort of stuff. 0:06:54.502 --> 0:06:58.222 So what do we know about how her relationship was going. 0:06:58.262 --> 0:06:59.782 You mentioned there was an age gap, it was quite 0:06:59.782 --> 0:07:03.342 a big one, and was forty three she was twenty four, 0:07:04.702 --> 0:07:08.702 and they had quite a few breakups in the kind 0:07:08.702 --> 0:07:12.502 of time before she died. How was the final weeks 0:07:12.542 --> 0:07:15.462 of their relationship volatile? 0:07:17.222 --> 0:07:18.022 Very volatile? 0:07:18.582 --> 0:07:23.102 There had been, according to Phoebe's mom and grandma, who 0:07:23.382 --> 0:07:26.222 you know, she was very close to, kind of six 0:07:26.262 --> 0:07:30.782 occasions where she had left him or walked out between 0:07:31.062 --> 0:07:35.942 October and she was found dead in December. So it 0:07:35.982 --> 0:07:38.902 wasn't in a it wasn't in a healthy, healthy state. 0:07:38.942 --> 0:07:41.742 And I think that last week they'd had a massive 0:07:41.822 --> 0:07:46.462 blue after a dinner at some of Ant's friends, and 0:07:47.102 --> 0:07:49.022 he didn't like the way she behaved or some of 0:07:49.062 --> 0:07:50.862 the things she said, and she had a couple of 0:07:50.862 --> 0:07:54.182 glasses of wine, and I don't think he liked that 0:07:54.422 --> 0:07:58.022 because of I guess he saw alcohol. 0:07:57.622 --> 0:08:00.902 As as a problem in her life, but why. 0:08:00.942 --> 0:08:04.422 Keep taking it her places then where it's kind of 0:08:04.502 --> 0:08:08.462 in abundance. So that last week, I think the Monday 0:08:08.862 --> 0:08:12.222 night of it, yeah, they had a massive row and 0:08:12.302 --> 0:08:15.582 really things sort of started to spiral a bit from there. 0:08:16.782 --> 0:08:19.182 During your investigations. You spent a lot of time with 0:08:19.222 --> 0:08:21.502 the family and her friends, and you kind of tried 0:08:21.502 --> 0:08:26.502 to unpick how the relationship changed. Phoebe and a lot 0:08:26.502 --> 0:08:29.262 of her friends spoke about how she was a different 0:08:29.302 --> 0:08:32.742 person really towards the end than the person they knew. 0:08:32.902 --> 0:08:34.182 Can you talk to that. 0:08:35.022 --> 0:08:39.022 Yeah, from their perspective and the way they saw her 0:08:39.182 --> 0:08:42.662 and her change and behavioral change, it was almost like 0:08:43.102 --> 0:08:46.222 she's trying to fulfill a role or acting, trying to 0:08:47.782 --> 0:08:51.222 fit a mold that was being made or had been 0:08:51.302 --> 0:08:56.102 made for her, and to really modify her behaviors to 0:08:57.262 --> 0:08:58.582 take the edges off a bit. 0:08:58.782 --> 0:09:02.382 But she seemed Yeah, I mean, they say that she 0:09:03.062 --> 0:09:03.422 was a. 0:09:03.342 --> 0:09:06.702 Person caught up in a relationship where there was a 0:09:06.742 --> 0:09:09.542 lot of real or perceived coercive control going on. 0:09:09.822 --> 0:09:14.062 Right. Did her family see any signs of her being suicidal? 0:09:14.662 --> 0:09:17.222 No, No, not from what I know. 0:09:17.582 --> 0:09:19.622 Because her dad is a psychiatrist, isn't he. 0:09:20.022 --> 0:09:22.982 Yeah, And we've got to look at the time she 0:09:23.822 --> 0:09:27.422 was found dead, her youngest brother was about to have 0:09:28.022 --> 0:09:32.462 I think his eighteenth birthday that very weekend, and there 0:09:32.542 --> 0:09:35.622 is no way she would have wanted to do anything 0:09:35.702 --> 0:09:41.262 to upend or to ruin that occasion. So yeah, you know, 0:09:42.262 --> 0:09:44.582 the mental health thing is obviously there, as it is 0:09:44.622 --> 0:09:48.182 in for everyone who dies in a suspicious way. You've 0:09:48.222 --> 0:09:50.782 got to take into account what's going on in their life. 0:09:50.822 --> 0:09:53.662 But from where I sit, and for my knowledge of 0:09:53.702 --> 0:09:57.782 this case, and you know, of the views of her 0:09:57.822 --> 0:10:00.382 family and friends, and also the evidence it was presented 0:10:00.382 --> 0:10:03.262 at the inquest, I think it was a really really 0:10:03.342 --> 0:10:06.622 bad call by the cops to write that off in 0:10:06.662 --> 0:10:10.342 two days. And yeah, I'll stand by that all these. 0:10:10.222 --> 0:10:12.942 You later, Can we talk a bit more about Phoebe's 0:10:13.022 --> 0:10:15.342 last week. You mentioned she'd had a blue with ant, 0:10:15.462 --> 0:10:18.262 but there are a number of other kind of strange 0:10:18.262 --> 0:10:21.262 things that happened. Yeah, there was a dinner and a 0:10:21.262 --> 0:10:23.422 tomato soup text and bits and pieces. 0:10:23.742 --> 0:10:28.022 Yeah, the last week, he's kind of you know, sometimes 0:10:28.062 --> 0:10:31.622 real life is crazier than anything you can make up. 0:10:31.662 --> 0:10:36.502 But there was an appointment with a doctor, you know, 0:10:36.582 --> 0:10:41.902 talking about her mental state. Then another bender, another drinking 0:10:42.222 --> 0:10:46.742 bender with a young friend of Phoebe's, where it was 0:10:46.902 --> 0:10:49.622 a pretty late night and I think and you know, 0:10:49.662 --> 0:10:54.382 she threw her phone to the ground in anger at 0:10:54.382 --> 0:10:56.982 how many times he was calling her to find out 0:10:57.502 --> 0:10:59.702 where she was and what she was doing. I think 0:10:59.742 --> 0:11:02.862 she might have had an ecstasy pill or something, the 0:11:02.902 --> 0:11:06.342 friend reported that night. And then you know she did 0:11:06.342 --> 0:11:11.582 come home and was hungover and recovering. And you know, 0:11:11.662 --> 0:11:16.622 not long after that, one day, a strange text was 0:11:16.662 --> 0:11:20.702 sent to family members and ant and one or two 0:11:20.782 --> 0:11:25.662 other people about her having tomato soup and going to 0:11:25.742 --> 0:11:29.622 drift off into this wonderful sleep and sort of apologizing 0:11:29.662 --> 0:11:33.382 about things and you know, merrily, merrily, life is better 0:11:33.462 --> 0:11:38.302 dream And that was a really concerning thing, obviously for 0:11:38.422 --> 0:11:42.742 family to see. And I think Natalie hands Juck, Phoebe's mom, 0:11:43.542 --> 0:11:46.542 was on a plane and you know, when she landed 0:11:46.582 --> 0:11:49.822 and got signal again that came up, and she rang 0:11:50.302 --> 0:11:53.862 her mum, you know, Jeanette, Phoebe's grandmother, to try and 0:11:53.942 --> 0:11:56.862 check out what was going on. You could read many, 0:11:56.902 --> 0:12:00.342 many things into that text message and perhaps still never 0:12:00.462 --> 0:12:04.942 know what the intent was or indeed who the author was. 0:12:05.342 --> 0:12:06.822 When was that text message sent? 0:12:07.662 --> 0:12:10.422 That was on the Thursday morning, so the day before 0:12:10.542 --> 0:12:11.542 or Phoebe died. 0:12:12.102 --> 0:12:14.702 What about her movements on the day she died. We 0:12:14.782 --> 0:12:17.662 know she headed out in the morning with her dog. 0:12:18.062 --> 0:12:19.982 She's captured on CCTV camera. 0:12:20.742 --> 0:12:25.222 Then what we don't know. There's a space of hours 0:12:25.302 --> 0:12:29.262 that no one's got any insight into. What we do 0:12:29.382 --> 0:12:34.102 know that Phoebe was captured on CCTV in the lobby 0:12:34.102 --> 0:12:37.542 of the apartment building with the little dog, and in 0:12:37.582 --> 0:12:40.622 the apartment that she shared with that he reported sort 0:12:40.622 --> 0:12:45.702 of seeing a little shrine when he came back in there. 0:12:45.902 --> 0:12:49.502 Her hair straighteners had been plugged in. Get her handbag 0:12:49.822 --> 0:12:53.222 on the bench and a phone charger with it. Now, 0:12:53.302 --> 0:12:57.022 those things, knowing from my wife and now seventeen year 0:12:57.022 --> 0:13:00.382 old daughter, they're pretty normal indications that that a girl 0:13:00.462 --> 0:13:02.982 or a woman is heading out somewhere if you've got 0:13:03.022 --> 0:13:07.382 those kind of implements on or on the bench ready 0:13:07.382 --> 0:13:11.462 to take with you. And obviously she didn't, the best 0:13:11.462 --> 0:13:14.302 of our knowledge, go out anywhere. And the other things 0:13:14.462 --> 0:13:18.342 that the police discovered was that Phoebe's Gmail had been 0:13:19.102 --> 0:13:25.302 accessed and messages deleted from her email account, and no 0:13:25.342 --> 0:13:29.982 one really knows what that's about or why either, So 0:13:30.862 --> 0:13:35.462 they're enduring mysteries. And because the police had made that 0:13:35.782 --> 0:13:40.222 quick assumption that this was either a suicide or a 0:13:40.222 --> 0:13:46.902 accidental death, it meant Victoria police couldn't get American authorities, 0:13:47.062 --> 0:13:51.502 so where Google's headquartered, to go in and try and 0:13:51.582 --> 0:13:54.942 download or extract the deleted data to find out what 0:13:55.022 --> 0:13:59.342 went on, because under the legal cooperation treaties between the 0:13:59.342 --> 0:14:01.942 two countries to get them to do that, there has 0:14:01.982 --> 0:14:05.982 to be suspicion or strong evidence of a homicide. 0:14:07.622 --> 0:14:10.222 Just another kind of mystery, isn't it. 0:14:10.502 --> 0:14:13.742 Yeah, another door that couldn't be opened. Now, it maybe 0:14:13.902 --> 0:14:17.422 be a coincidence or something there. But you know, this 0:14:17.542 --> 0:14:20.782 is the after effects, I guess, or the fallout of 0:14:21.462 --> 0:14:27.182 rushing to a conclusion rather than keeping an open mind 0:14:27.222 --> 0:14:30.382 and maybe just gathering all the evidence you can in 0:14:30.422 --> 0:14:32.702 the first place and then make an assessment of what 0:14:32.942 --> 0:14:35.502 is the most likely thing to have happened, whether it 0:14:35.542 --> 0:14:40.462 be a suspicious death or foul play, or a suicide 0:14:40.582 --> 0:14:41.342 or an accident. 0:14:42.102 --> 0:14:44.702 We know that the concierge found Phoebe at about seven. 0:14:45.182 --> 0:14:47.222 What were ants movements that night? 0:14:48.022 --> 0:14:53.222 So his phone records and he's swipe card to enter 0:14:53.622 --> 0:14:57.662 the building show him getting home around ten past six, 0:14:58.542 --> 0:15:01.862 and he says Phoebe wasn't there, and that there was 0:15:02.102 --> 0:15:04.662 like a candle burning and a photo of them or something, 0:15:04.742 --> 0:15:08.582 and some smashed glass and a ripped cushion or something 0:15:08.662 --> 0:15:10.702 like that, so it's a bit of an odd And 0:15:11.142 --> 0:15:13.062 also later it was, you know, it was found out 0:15:13.102 --> 0:15:13.782 that there was some. 0:15:13.662 --> 0:15:15.022 Blood in the apartment. 0:15:15.102 --> 0:15:17.662 Now they were meant to be going out for dinner 0:15:18.062 --> 0:15:21.062 that night with Phoebe's dad, and there was a weird 0:15:21.142 --> 0:15:25.382 phone call to or from their apartment number registered to 0:15:25.422 --> 0:15:29.662 a Western Australian number, and when they checked that number, 0:15:29.822 --> 0:15:34.782 it was wa solar like a solar panel thing that 0:15:34.942 --> 0:15:38.502 nobody knows what the hell that was about, and I 0:15:38.502 --> 0:15:41.382 don't think ant has any recollection. 0:15:40.982 --> 0:15:43.542 Or any idea of what that is. 0:15:44.062 --> 0:15:48.822 What happened next was one of Phoebe's phones rang, and 0:15:48.902 --> 0:15:50.862 I don't know whether the aunt had possession of it 0:15:50.982 --> 0:15:53.342 or not, but it was it was Phoebe's dad and 0:15:53.382 --> 0:15:57.302 he was ringing to confirm dinner or to say that 0:15:57.342 --> 0:16:00.062 where are you, you know, because they haven't rocked up yet. 0:16:00.342 --> 0:16:04.622 And then about sixty seconds later and happened to call 0:16:05.182 --> 0:16:08.502 Phoebe's father back to say, oh, I don't know where 0:16:08.502 --> 0:16:11.982 Phoebe is now, I think, and said that he didn't 0:16:12.022 --> 0:16:14.462 realize that was a coincidence. He didn't know that Phoebe's 0:16:14.542 --> 0:16:17.862 dad had just called sixty seconds earlier looking for her, 0:16:18.702 --> 0:16:21.462 and then as it got closer to seven, I think 0:16:21.542 --> 0:16:27.302 An ordered some takeaway. He assumed that dinners off and 0:16:27.342 --> 0:16:31.022 that maybe Phoebe's dad probably wasn't that keen on just 0:16:31.022 --> 0:16:32.342 having dinner with him on his own. 0:16:32.782 --> 0:16:36.542 Those other kind of bits and pieces you mentioned broken glass, 0:16:36.542 --> 0:16:40.862 a ripped pillow, and blood, were they ever investigated by 0:16:40.902 --> 0:16:42.902 police or locked down as a crime scene. 0:16:43.102 --> 0:16:47.102 The place was eventually locked down for one of a 0:16:47.102 --> 0:16:50.542 better word, or taped off as a crime scene, but 0:16:50.582 --> 0:16:52.262 not till much later in the evening. 0:16:52.382 --> 0:16:53.822 When it's one thing I've always found a. 0:16:53.742 --> 0:16:59.342 Bit unusual, and when that happened, and already had family members, 0:16:59.622 --> 0:17:03.102 including his father, I believe his late father, Supreme Court 0:17:03.222 --> 0:17:07.982 Judge George Hampel, up in the apartment, and I don't 0:17:07.982 --> 0:17:10.382 know what they were doing there, I guess supporting him. 0:17:10.862 --> 0:17:12.902 But again, when you think about how these. 0:17:12.782 --> 0:17:16.062 Things are normally done, I would have thought normal procedure 0:17:16.062 --> 0:17:18.942 would have been to lock down that place, get everyone out, 0:17:19.062 --> 0:17:23.462 preserve the evidence, collect every sample of blood and DNA 0:17:24.062 --> 0:17:27.382 possible in there, and the fragments of glass and the 0:17:27.422 --> 0:17:31.182 computers and anything that might lead to some clues or 0:17:31.422 --> 0:17:36.142 some certainty about what happened, And yeah, the adequacy of 0:17:36.422 --> 0:17:40.062 the steps that were taken that night by police, it 0:17:40.142 --> 0:17:43.382 wasn't good enough. It was inadequate, and they missed testing 0:17:43.462 --> 0:17:46.102 some samples of blood. And to me, wouldn't that be 0:17:46.142 --> 0:17:48.102 a sign of perhaps there's been a struggle. 0:17:48.502 --> 0:17:49.502 Why wouldn't you? You know? 0:17:49.582 --> 0:17:53.102 Also, okay, there were three glasses in the sink, and 0:17:53.142 --> 0:17:55.742 who's been home all day? Why are there three glasses? 0:17:55.942 --> 0:17:58.982 You know? What was in the glasses? Was there? An alcohol? 0:17:59.142 --> 0:17:59.382 Was there? 0:17:59.422 --> 0:17:59.502 This? 0:17:59.742 --> 0:18:01.622 Was there? That not done? 0:18:02.102 --> 0:18:05.862 And the other big failing of that night in terms 0:18:05.902 --> 0:18:08.942 of an investigatory sort of thing, was to actually access 0:18:09.022 --> 0:18:12.982 and seize the CCTV from the apartment building. 0:18:13.262 --> 0:18:17.142 So they didn't do that. No, isn't that basic policing. 0:18:17.182 --> 0:18:19.582 I'm not a police officer putting my hands up, but 0:18:19.742 --> 0:18:20.422 that feels like. 0:18:20.462 --> 0:18:24.462 Sort of on every episode of CSA like that. I mean, it's, yeah, 0:18:24.902 --> 0:18:28.222 I don't know why you wouldn't you wouldn't do that there? 0:18:28.262 --> 0:18:32.342 And then yeah, I know I've always thought, this is 0:18:32.382 --> 0:18:36.462 my own personal opinion here that Phoebe's family were and 0:18:36.582 --> 0:18:39.182 remain owed an apology by Victoria police. 0:18:39.942 --> 0:18:43.022 Was there an issue with getting that CCTV after the fact. 0:18:43.062 --> 0:18:45.422 Could they not get it later when they. 0:18:45.302 --> 0:18:49.182 Went back to get it. I think it had overwritten 0:18:49.222 --> 0:18:52.462 itself or filmed. It was on a loop so it 0:18:52.542 --> 0:18:57.142 was hard to access. And then the building manager, when 0:18:57.182 --> 0:18:59.942 I went to interview him a few years later, mentioned 0:19:00.222 --> 0:19:03.382 a hard drive. This is when Detective Pain who was 0:19:03.422 --> 0:19:06.342 doing the coroner's investigation. I wanted to see if there 0:19:06.382 --> 0:19:10.702 was something on a hard drive that they eventually found 0:19:11.302 --> 0:19:14.022 what looked like the right or relevant hard drive, and 0:19:14.062 --> 0:19:15.942 then that missing from the building. 0:19:16.302 --> 0:19:19.422 What about witness statements or you know, a statement from ant. 0:19:19.582 --> 0:19:20.942 Was that something that happened that night? 0:19:21.542 --> 0:19:25.342 Yeah, he did give a statement, and I think in 0:19:25.382 --> 0:19:28.662 it he mentioned that she was troubled and having battles 0:19:28.702 --> 0:19:31.822 with mental health and poor girl, and you know. 0:19:31.782 --> 0:19:32.462 Things like that. 0:19:32.662 --> 0:19:36.942 And then one of the officers on the scene observed 0:19:36.942 --> 0:19:42.262 in his notebook that was, in his opinion, acting strangely 0:19:43.142 --> 0:19:46.382 and almost sort of putting on the crocodile tears and 0:19:47.022 --> 0:19:52.262 emotion and behaving unusually. But that said, people do cope 0:19:52.262 --> 0:19:56.102 with grief and shock in different ways. And you know, 0:19:56.382 --> 0:19:59.022 I don't think any of the other police remarked one 0:19:59.022 --> 0:20:03.582 way or another on his behavior. And then when Detective 0:20:03.902 --> 0:20:07.062 Pain so that the South Melbourne detective he was given 0:20:07.102 --> 0:20:09.982 the job of forming the brief of evidence for the 0:20:10.062 --> 0:20:16.142 Corona inquest, he wanted to reinterview in January, so you know, 0:20:16.182 --> 0:20:20.222 maybe four or five weeks after Phoebe had died, and 0:20:20.542 --> 0:20:24.542 he wasn't being interviewed under caution or anything. But Ant's father, 0:20:24.742 --> 0:20:28.422 the retired Supreme Court judge, wouldn't leave his sight. And 0:20:28.462 --> 0:20:32.662 even when Detective Pain said, I'd rather talk to him alone. Again, 0:20:32.662 --> 0:20:34.622 we're talking about a forty three year old man here, 0:20:35.182 --> 0:20:36.862 he said, no, my son's grieving. 0:20:36.902 --> 0:20:37.982 I don't want to leave him. 0:20:38.022 --> 0:20:40.022 But I guess that's an important point to make that 0:20:40.102 --> 0:20:43.942 his dad was very high up in the legal system 0:20:43.982 --> 0:20:46.302 in Victoria, which is not a bad thing. It just 0:20:46.382 --> 0:20:51.542 means that this family knows court. They know legalities they do. 0:20:51.662 --> 0:20:55.342 Yeah, they know the law and they know how things 0:20:55.422 --> 0:20:59.342 work and they know the I guess just by virtue 0:20:59.382 --> 0:21:03.622 of the position to Ant's stepmother was a sitting county 0:21:03.622 --> 0:21:06.142 court judge, so that's the equivalent of the district court 0:21:06.462 --> 0:21:09.982 in New South Wales also, so yeah, they know, they 0:21:10.022 --> 0:21:11.942 know the l all they know, you know, how things 0:21:11.982 --> 0:21:15.262 can be pushed how police procedure works, all of those 0:21:15.342 --> 0:21:17.502 kinds of things. And that's not a criticism of them, 0:21:17.502 --> 0:21:20.702 it's just a fact of their experience and the profession 0:21:20.942 --> 0:21:25.142 that they have. But I guess it's human nature. People often, 0:21:25.742 --> 0:21:29.502 rightly or wrongly, tread a bit lightly around powerful people. 0:21:29.822 --> 0:21:31.542 And you know, you've got to wonder whether or not 0:21:31.782 --> 0:21:35.142 that happened here, because the point of doing this podcast 0:21:35.342 --> 0:21:38.262 was to actually put the justice system on display and 0:21:38.382 --> 0:21:42.822 ask the question did it give Phoebe a fair go? 0:21:43.742 --> 0:21:45.102 And I think it. 0:21:45.022 --> 0:21:48.102 Failed well, as you were mentioning before. Within a few days, 0:21:48.182 --> 0:21:51.222 so by the seventh of December, homicide detectives had determined 0:21:51.342 --> 0:21:53.822 that there was no second party involved in Phoebe's death, 0:21:54.422 --> 0:21:57.662 that she entered the shoot voluntarily. How did her family 0:21:57.702 --> 0:21:58.462 react to that. 0:21:58.822 --> 0:22:01.342 I think, you know, they would feel under a bit 0:22:01.382 --> 0:22:06.822 of a tidal wave of emotion and question and trying 0:22:06.862 --> 0:22:09.742 to make sense of it all. But I think they 0:22:09.782 --> 0:22:12.902 were really going to back with the speed which that 0:22:13.142 --> 0:22:17.342 conclusion was reached. And I mean, we look at other examples, 0:22:17.382 --> 0:22:22.422 other prominent cases where women, wives or girlfriends have been 0:22:22.542 --> 0:22:26.942 found dead in suspicious circumstances. So you know, I'm talking 0:22:26.982 --> 0:22:30.422 about the Jill Mark case. Also, you know in Inner 0:22:30.462 --> 0:22:34.822 Melbourne a few years after Phoebe, the early stages of 0:22:34.862 --> 0:22:38.382 those investigations put a bit of media and public heat 0:22:38.742 --> 0:22:46.902 on the husbands and talking to experienced detectives after Phoebe's case, 0:22:46.982 --> 0:22:49.222 they thought that was really odd that this is a 0:22:49.262 --> 0:22:55.902 strange situation. This is a domestic de facto relationship here. 0:22:56.142 --> 0:23:00.382 There is evidence of blood and other things in that 0:23:00.622 --> 0:23:05.222 apartment and was home when Phoebe's body was found. So 0:23:05.662 --> 0:23:08.942 it's again not saying that he was guilty, but why 0:23:09.302 --> 0:23:13.742 wasn't the same standard procedures and processes followed here. 0:23:14.382 --> 0:23:17.182 When did you become involved in this story? It was 0:23:17.222 --> 0:23:19.902 around about now, wasn't it that the family kind of 0:23:19.982 --> 0:23:23.102 contacted you. They were quite frustrated with everything that was happening, 0:23:23.142 --> 0:23:27.062 particularly Phoebe's grandfather, who himself was a retired detective. 0:23:27.302 --> 0:23:32.582 Yeah, so Lawn Campbell, Phoebe's maternal grandfather. It was a 0:23:32.702 --> 0:23:37.862 very experienced Victoria police officer and detective. And he reached 0:23:37.902 --> 0:23:42.262 out to myself and my then colleague and still great mate, 0:23:42.462 --> 0:23:46.182 Nick McKenzie at the age and what he was reaching 0:23:46.182 --> 0:23:49.742 out for was it looked like at that point in time, 0:23:49.862 --> 0:23:52.342 that there was not going to be any inquest by 0:23:52.382 --> 0:23:55.422 the coroner into Phoebe's death, that it was going to 0:23:55.422 --> 0:23:57.622 be written off either as. 0:23:57.542 --> 0:24:00.462 An accident or suicide, with no questions. 0:23:59.982 --> 0:24:06.742 Asked, and Hamble's lawyer had approached the coroner's court saying 0:24:06.782 --> 0:24:11.582 that an inquest was not needed, and that struck me immediately, 0:24:11.702 --> 0:24:13.702 is really weird, and I've. 0:24:13.582 --> 0:24:14.302 Just gone hang on. 0:24:14.902 --> 0:24:16.662 I did a be quick search to find out if 0:24:16.702 --> 0:24:18.862 anyone else in Australia has been found dead at the 0:24:18.862 --> 0:24:23.422 bottom of a garbage chute and found no. Plus you're 0:24:23.462 --> 0:24:26.422 adding all the other stuff that went on in Phoebe's 0:24:26.462 --> 0:24:30.862