1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,182 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,702 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and wortars. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,742 --> 00:00:26,822 Speaker 1: recorded on It's eleven forty four AM on December two, 4 00:00:27,022 --> 00:00:30,022 Speaker 1: twenty ten, in Melbourne and Phoebe Hans Juck and her 5 00:00:30,062 --> 00:00:34,062 Speaker 1: dog Yoshi are captured on security camera. They're leaving the 6 00:00:34,142 --> 00:00:36,822 Speaker 1: luxury apartment building on Saint Kilda Road she shares with 7 00:00:36,862 --> 00:00:41,182 Speaker 1: her boyfriend as a fire alarm sounds. She returns six 8 00:00:41,222 --> 00:00:45,862 Speaker 1: minutes later. It's the last time she's ever seen alive. 9 00:00:50,742 --> 00:00:54,382 Speaker 1: After that short clip, we know she consumes enough alcohol 10 00:00:54,502 --> 00:00:58,182 Speaker 1: to put her three times over the legal limit. Traces 11 00:00:58,222 --> 00:01:01,622 Speaker 1: of a sleeping pill are found in her system, according 12 00:01:01,702 --> 00:01:04,462 Speaker 1: to police. At some point over the course of the evening, 13 00:01:04,822 --> 00:01:08,302 Speaker 1: Phoebe exits her apartment and enters her floor's rubbish chute, 14 00:01:09,262 --> 00:01:14,182 Speaker 1: falling twelve floor into a wheelie bin. She survives, but 15 00:01:14,302 --> 00:01:17,462 Speaker 1: her right foot is almost severed by the compactor's blade, 16 00:01:17,902 --> 00:01:20,822 Speaker 1: and in a last bid for life, she drags herself 17 00:01:20,822 --> 00:01:24,382 Speaker 1: around the room looking for an exit. She doesn't find it. 18 00:01:25,342 --> 00:01:28,422 Speaker 1: Her body is found by a concierge at seven pm. 19 00:01:30,022 --> 00:01:34,142 Speaker 1: Her death is ruled a suicide, then an accident, but 20 00:01:34,222 --> 00:01:38,462 Speaker 1: those explanations have never made sense to her family. How 21 00:01:38,462 --> 00:01:41,342 Speaker 1: did she get into the shoot? Why did she get 22 00:01:41,342 --> 00:01:46,022 Speaker 1: into the shoot? Did the police and the coroner get 23 00:01:46,062 --> 00:01:58,982 Speaker 1: it wrong? I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations, 24 00:01:59,382 --> 00:02:02,942 Speaker 1: a Muma Mere podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes 25 00:02:03,342 --> 00:02:06,462 Speaker 1: by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 26 00:02:06,822 --> 00:02:09,662 Speaker 1: The garbage shoot at Phoebe's apartment was one of those 27 00:02:09,662 --> 00:02:12,662 Speaker 1: ones that you open via a handle about halfway up 28 00:02:12,702 --> 00:02:16,462 Speaker 1: the wall. It swings open on an angle, revealing a 29 00:02:16,502 --> 00:02:20,342 Speaker 1: twenty two centimeter latch opening. It's a pretty awkward hole 30 00:02:20,462 --> 00:02:23,622 Speaker 1: to maneuver yourself into, and watching the recreation of how 31 00:02:23,662 --> 00:02:26,822 Speaker 1: Phoebe might have managed it on Channel nine's Under Investigation, 32 00:02:27,422 --> 00:02:29,502 Speaker 1: it looks almost impossible. 33 00:02:29,982 --> 00:02:30,942 Speaker 2: It's very tight. 34 00:02:31,462 --> 00:02:35,342 Speaker 1: In her second attempt, Daniel pulls herself up, but it 35 00:02:35,462 --> 00:02:41,782 Speaker 1: takes all her strength, balance and coordination. It's just one 36 00:02:41,862 --> 00:02:44,742 Speaker 1: of a long list of questions that remain unanswered in 37 00:02:44,782 --> 00:02:48,142 Speaker 1: this case, a story that has been covered in depth 38 00:02:48,502 --> 00:02:52,702 Speaker 1: by multi award winning investigative journalist Richard Baker, whose podcast 39 00:02:52,822 --> 00:02:56,582 Speaker 1: Phoebe's Fall for the Age, hosted with Michael Bachelard, worked 40 00:02:56,582 --> 00:02:59,422 Speaker 1: closely with Phoebe's family to try and figure out what 41 00:02:59,622 --> 00:03:03,102 Speaker 1: really happened to her. It's a case that has baffled 42 00:03:03,142 --> 00:03:07,342 Speaker 1: and angered the Australian public, and fourteen years later, many 43 00:03:07,382 --> 00:03:10,942 Speaker 1: of the questions asked by Phoebe's fall remain a miss. 44 00:03:11,542 --> 00:03:19,822 Speaker 1: Richard joins us. Now, Richard, how was Phoebe's body discovered 45 00:03:20,102 --> 00:03:23,302 Speaker 1: and what happened as police arrived on that scene. 46 00:03:23,542 --> 00:03:27,902 Speaker 3: Phoebe's body was found in the garbage refuse room of 47 00:03:27,942 --> 00:03:31,222 Speaker 3: this really fancy apartment building in Sint Kilda Road in 48 00:03:31,262 --> 00:03:36,582 Speaker 3: Melbourne around seven pm by the concierge or a cleaner 49 00:03:36,902 --> 00:03:39,342 Speaker 3: going about her work. She was just trying to put 50 00:03:39,342 --> 00:03:41,982 Speaker 3: a broom back or something and felt that there was 51 00:03:42,022 --> 00:03:44,742 Speaker 3: a weight against the door and had trouble opening it 52 00:03:44,862 --> 00:03:48,742 Speaker 3: and eventually got it open and they're lying in a 53 00:03:48,742 --> 00:03:52,102 Speaker 3: pool of blood. Was Phoebe And so what happened from there? 54 00:03:52,142 --> 00:03:55,662 Speaker 3: Obviously you know, police and emergency services were called and 55 00:03:56,182 --> 00:04:00,022 Speaker 3: pretty quickly the building started to fill up with police 56 00:04:00,062 --> 00:04:04,702 Speaker 3: and ambulance officers. Interestingly, the ambulance officers didn't go and 57 00:04:04,822 --> 00:04:08,702 Speaker 3: check for proof of life, which I found a bit troubling, 58 00:04:08,742 --> 00:04:11,622 Speaker 3: and I know that troubled members of Phoebe's family, but 59 00:04:11,822 --> 00:04:14,222 Speaker 3: the police had already made an assessment that she was well, 60 00:04:14,262 --> 00:04:18,782 Speaker 3: I'm truly gone, and then it was really about talking 61 00:04:18,902 --> 00:04:23,702 Speaker 3: to her de facto partner, Ant Hample and trying to 62 00:04:23,742 --> 00:04:25,742 Speaker 3: piece together her movements of that day. 63 00:04:26,462 --> 00:04:30,622 Speaker 1: How quickly did the police start talking about suicide. 64 00:04:30,422 --> 00:04:33,542 Speaker 3: Well, from what we know and from the coroner's inquest, 65 00:04:34,142 --> 00:04:37,822 Speaker 3: from the word go, that was in the backdrop of 66 00:04:37,902 --> 00:04:41,342 Speaker 3: all the conversations about what might have happened there, I know, 67 00:04:42,022 --> 00:04:46,782 Speaker 3: and had mentioned that she was mentally unwell at the 68 00:04:46,862 --> 00:04:50,622 Speaker 3: time in his opinion, and she was seeking some treatment 69 00:04:51,102 --> 00:04:55,102 Speaker 3: and care from the medical profession for her mental health. 70 00:04:56,062 --> 00:05:00,422 Speaker 3: And within two days the homicide squad had pretty much 71 00:05:00,462 --> 00:05:03,582 Speaker 3: written it off as a suicide, and that meant the 72 00:05:03,702 --> 00:05:08,822 Speaker 3: case then was bound for the coroner, and a detective 73 00:05:08,862 --> 00:05:12,822 Speaker 3: from the nearest police station, South Melbourne was assigned the 74 00:05:12,902 --> 00:05:16,742 Speaker 3: job of putting together the brief of evidence. It was 75 00:05:16,782 --> 00:05:21,302 Speaker 3: a really quick judgment called to make and something I've 76 00:05:21,342 --> 00:05:24,302 Speaker 3: never seen happen so quickly, and any other high profile 77 00:05:25,062 --> 00:05:29,942 Speaker 3: death in a suspicious circumstance involving you know, a young 78 00:05:29,942 --> 00:05:33,102 Speaker 3: woman or a woman in that de facto or intimate 79 00:05:33,142 --> 00:05:35,062 Speaker 3: partner setting let's. 80 00:05:34,822 --> 00:05:38,822 Speaker 1: Paint the picture of Phoebe's life at the time a bit. 81 00:05:39,022 --> 00:05:42,582 Speaker 1: She was, you know, twenty four living with her boyfriend 82 00:05:43,022 --> 00:05:44,862 Speaker 1: who you mentioned. Can you tell us a bit more 83 00:05:44,902 --> 00:05:46,662 Speaker 1: about the life she was living. 84 00:05:47,702 --> 00:05:50,542 Speaker 2: On the surface, it looked like a pretty good life. 85 00:05:50,582 --> 00:05:54,342 Speaker 3: I managed a vibrant twenty four year old, you know, 86 00:05:54,822 --> 00:06:00,222 Speaker 3: stunning looking young woman, big personality, from a loving family. 87 00:06:00,502 --> 00:06:02,422 Speaker 3: You know, her family and her friends would conceive a 88 00:06:02,462 --> 00:06:04,742 Speaker 3: bit of a wild child, loved a party, but could 89 00:06:04,742 --> 00:06:08,422 Speaker 3: also then get like many of us buyer's remorse after 90 00:06:08,462 --> 00:06:09,502 Speaker 3: too good a time. 91 00:06:09,662 --> 00:06:13,262 Speaker 2: And a bit like and a bit down. And yeah, 92 00:06:13,342 --> 00:06:14,862 Speaker 2: she mixed. 93 00:06:15,262 --> 00:06:18,902 Speaker 3: And through her boyfriend and his connections. He was quite 94 00:06:18,942 --> 00:06:22,622 Speaker 3: a bit older and from a very established Melbourne legal family, 95 00:06:22,942 --> 00:06:26,022 Speaker 3: and worked and it still works in the events and 96 00:06:26,182 --> 00:06:29,462 Speaker 3: entertainment space, going to a lot of parties, meeting a 97 00:06:29,462 --> 00:06:32,742 Speaker 3: lot of quite hip and happening on the move people. 98 00:06:33,182 --> 00:06:38,382 Speaker 3: So it was a pretty full long lifestyle. And yeah, 99 00:06:38,422 --> 00:06:40,662 Speaker 3: I think her family and friends would have said that 100 00:06:40,742 --> 00:06:44,662 Speaker 3: she did have her battles with alcohol and occasional drug 101 00:06:44,782 --> 00:06:48,462 Speaker 3: use and stuff like that, but you know, quite common 102 00:06:48,502 --> 00:06:52,582 Speaker 3: for people in their early to mid twenties to be 103 00:06:53,062 --> 00:06:54,422 Speaker 3: doing all that sort of stuff. 104 00:06:54,502 --> 00:06:58,222 Speaker 1: So what do we know about how her relationship was going. 105 00:06:58,262 --> 00:06:59,782 Speaker 1: You mentioned there was an age gap, it was quite 106 00:06:59,782 --> 00:07:03,342 Speaker 1: a big one, and was forty three she was twenty four, 107 00:07:04,702 --> 00:07:08,702 Speaker 1: and they had quite a few breakups in the kind 108 00:07:08,702 --> 00:07:12,502 Speaker 1: of time before she died. How was the final weeks 109 00:07:12,542 --> 00:07:15,462 Speaker 1: of their relationship volatile? 110 00:07:17,222 --> 00:07:18,022 Speaker 2: Very volatile? 111 00:07:18,582 --> 00:07:23,102 Speaker 3: There had been, according to Phoebe's mom and grandma, who 112 00:07:23,382 --> 00:07:26,222 Speaker 3: you know, she was very close to, kind of six 113 00:07:26,262 --> 00:07:30,782 Speaker 3: occasions where she had left him or walked out between 114 00:07:31,062 --> 00:07:35,942 Speaker 3: October and she was found dead in December. So it 115 00:07:35,982 --> 00:07:38,902 Speaker 3: wasn't in a it wasn't in a healthy, healthy state. 116 00:07:38,942 --> 00:07:41,742 Speaker 3: And I think that last week they'd had a massive 117 00:07:41,822 --> 00:07:46,462 Speaker 3: blue after a dinner at some of Ant's friends, and 118 00:07:47,102 --> 00:07:49,022 Speaker 3: he didn't like the way she behaved or some of 119 00:07:49,062 --> 00:07:50,862 Speaker 3: the things she said, and she had a couple of 120 00:07:50,862 --> 00:07:54,182 Speaker 3: glasses of wine, and I don't think he liked that 121 00:07:54,422 --> 00:07:58,022 Speaker 3: because of I guess he saw alcohol. 122 00:07:57,622 --> 00:08:00,902 Speaker 2: As as a problem in her life, but why. 123 00:08:00,942 --> 00:08:04,422 Speaker 3: Keep taking it her places then where it's kind of 124 00:08:04,502 --> 00:08:08,462 Speaker 3: in abundance. So that last week, I think the Monday 125 00:08:08,862 --> 00:08:12,222 Speaker 3: night of it, yeah, they had a massive row and 126 00:08:12,302 --> 00:08:15,582 Speaker 3: really things sort of started to spiral a bit from there. 127 00:08:16,782 --> 00:08:19,182 Speaker 1: During your investigations. You spent a lot of time with 128 00:08:19,222 --> 00:08:21,502 Speaker 1: the family and her friends, and you kind of tried 129 00:08:21,502 --> 00:08:26,502 Speaker 1: to unpick how the relationship changed. Phoebe and a lot 130 00:08:26,502 --> 00:08:29,262 Speaker 1: of her friends spoke about how she was a different 131 00:08:29,302 --> 00:08:32,742 Speaker 1: person really towards the end than the person they knew. 132 00:08:32,902 --> 00:08:34,182 Speaker 1: Can you talk to that. 133 00:08:35,022 --> 00:08:39,022 Speaker 3: Yeah, from their perspective and the way they saw her 134 00:08:39,182 --> 00:08:42,662 Speaker 3: and her change and behavioral change, it was almost like 135 00:08:43,102 --> 00:08:46,222 Speaker 3: she's trying to fulfill a role or acting, trying to 136 00:08:47,782 --> 00:08:51,222 Speaker 3: fit a mold that was being made or had been 137 00:08:51,302 --> 00:08:56,102 Speaker 3: made for her, and to really modify her behaviors to 138 00:08:57,262 --> 00:08:58,582 Speaker 3: take the edges off a bit. 139 00:08:58,782 --> 00:09:02,382 Speaker 2: But she seemed Yeah, I mean, they say that she 140 00:09:03,062 --> 00:09:03,422 Speaker 2: was a. 141 00:09:03,342 --> 00:09:06,702 Speaker 3: Person caught up in a relationship where there was a 142 00:09:06,742 --> 00:09:09,542 Speaker 3: lot of real or perceived coercive control going on. 143 00:09:09,822 --> 00:09:14,062 Speaker 1: Right. Did her family see any signs of her being suicidal? 144 00:09:14,662 --> 00:09:17,222 Speaker 2: No, No, not from what I know. 145 00:09:17,582 --> 00:09:19,622 Speaker 1: Because her dad is a psychiatrist, isn't he. 146 00:09:20,022 --> 00:09:22,982 Speaker 3: Yeah, And we've got to look at the time she 147 00:09:23,822 --> 00:09:27,422 Speaker 3: was found dead, her youngest brother was about to have 148 00:09:28,022 --> 00:09:32,462 Speaker 3: I think his eighteenth birthday that very weekend, and there 149 00:09:32,542 --> 00:09:35,622 Speaker 3: is no way she would have wanted to do anything 150 00:09:35,702 --> 00:09:41,262 Speaker 3: to upend or to ruin that occasion. So yeah, you know, 151 00:09:42,262 --> 00:09:44,582 Speaker 3: the mental health thing is obviously there, as it is 152 00:09:44,622 --> 00:09:48,182 Speaker 3: in for everyone who dies in a suspicious way. You've 153 00:09:48,222 --> 00:09:50,782 Speaker 3: got to take into account what's going on in their life. 154 00:09:50,822 --> 00:09:53,662 Speaker 3: But from where I sit, and for my knowledge of 155 00:09:53,702 --> 00:09:57,782 Speaker 3: this case, and you know, of the views of her 156 00:09:57,822 --> 00:10:00,382 Speaker 3: family and friends, and also the evidence it was presented 157 00:10:00,382 --> 00:10:03,262 Speaker 3: at the inquest, I think it was a really really 158 00:10:03,342 --> 00:10:06,622 Speaker 3: bad call by the cops to write that off in 159 00:10:06,662 --> 00:10:10,342 Speaker 3: two days. And yeah, I'll stand by that all these. 160 00:10:10,222 --> 00:10:12,942 Speaker 1: You later, Can we talk a bit more about Phoebe's 161 00:10:13,022 --> 00:10:15,342 Speaker 1: last week. You mentioned she'd had a blue with ant, 162 00:10:15,462 --> 00:10:18,262 Speaker 1: but there are a number of other kind of strange 163 00:10:18,262 --> 00:10:21,262 Speaker 1: things that happened. Yeah, there was a dinner and a 164 00:10:21,262 --> 00:10:23,422 Speaker 1: tomato soup text and bits and pieces. 165 00:10:23,742 --> 00:10:28,022 Speaker 3: Yeah, the last week, he's kind of you know, sometimes 166 00:10:28,062 --> 00:10:31,622 Speaker 3: real life is crazier than anything you can make up. 167 00:10:31,662 --> 00:10:36,502 Speaker 3: But there was an appointment with a doctor, you know, 168 00:10:36,582 --> 00:10:41,902 Speaker 3: talking about her mental state. Then another bender, another drinking 169 00:10:42,222 --> 00:10:46,742 Speaker 3: bender with a young friend of Phoebe's, where it was 170 00:10:46,902 --> 00:10:49,622 Speaker 3: a pretty late night and I think and you know, 171 00:10:49,662 --> 00:10:54,382 Speaker 3: she threw her phone to the ground in anger at 172 00:10:54,382 --> 00:10:56,982 Speaker 3: how many times he was calling her to find out 173 00:10:57,502 --> 00:10:59,702 Speaker 3: where she was and what she was doing. I think 174 00:10:59,742 --> 00:11:02,862 Speaker 3: she might have had an ecstasy pill or something, the 175 00:11:02,902 --> 00:11:06,342 Speaker 3: friend reported that night. And then you know she did 176 00:11:06,342 --> 00:11:11,582 Speaker 3: come home and was hungover and recovering. And you know, 177 00:11:11,662 --> 00:11:16,622 Speaker 3: not long after that, one day, a strange text was 178 00:11:16,662 --> 00:11:20,702 Speaker 3: sent to family members and ant and one or two 179 00:11:20,782 --> 00:11:25,662 Speaker 3: other people about her having tomato soup and going to 180 00:11:25,742 --> 00:11:29,622 Speaker 3: drift off into this wonderful sleep and sort of apologizing 181 00:11:29,662 --> 00:11:33,382 Speaker 3: about things and you know, merrily, merrily, life is better 182 00:11:33,462 --> 00:11:38,302 Speaker 3: dream And that was a really concerning thing, obviously for 183 00:11:38,422 --> 00:11:42,742 Speaker 3: family to see. And I think Natalie hands Juck, Phoebe's mom, 184 00:11:43,542 --> 00:11:46,542 Speaker 3: was on a plane and you know, when she landed 185 00:11:46,582 --> 00:11:49,822 Speaker 3: and got signal again that came up, and she rang 186 00:11:50,302 --> 00:11:53,862 Speaker 3: her mum, you know, Jeanette, Phoebe's grandmother, to try and 187 00:11:53,942 --> 00:11:56,862 Speaker 3: check out what was going on. You could read many, 188 00:11:56,902 --> 00:12:00,342 Speaker 3: many things into that text message and perhaps still never 189 00:12:00,462 --> 00:12:04,942 Speaker 3: know what the intent was or indeed who the author was. 190 00:12:05,342 --> 00:12:06,822 Speaker 1: When was that text message sent? 191 00:12:07,662 --> 00:12:10,422 Speaker 3: That was on the Thursday morning, so the day before 192 00:12:10,542 --> 00:12:11,542 Speaker 3: or Phoebe died. 193 00:12:12,102 --> 00:12:14,702 Speaker 1: What about her movements on the day she died. We 194 00:12:14,782 --> 00:12:17,662 Speaker 1: know she headed out in the morning with her dog. 195 00:12:18,062 --> 00:12:19,982 Speaker 1: She's captured on CCTV camera. 196 00:12:20,742 --> 00:12:25,222 Speaker 3: Then what we don't know. There's a space of hours 197 00:12:25,302 --> 00:12:29,262 Speaker 3: that no one's got any insight into. What we do 198 00:12:29,382 --> 00:12:34,102 Speaker 3: know that Phoebe was captured on CCTV in the lobby 199 00:12:34,102 --> 00:12:37,542 Speaker 3: of the apartment building with the little dog, and in 200 00:12:37,582 --> 00:12:40,622 Speaker 3: the apartment that she shared with that he reported sort 201 00:12:40,622 --> 00:12:45,702 Speaker 3: of seeing a little shrine when he came back in there. 202 00:12:45,902 --> 00:12:49,502 Speaker 3: Her hair straighteners had been plugged in. Get her handbag 203 00:12:49,822 --> 00:12:53,222 Speaker 3: on the bench and a phone charger with it. Now, 204 00:12:53,302 --> 00:12:57,022 Speaker 3: those things, knowing from my wife and now seventeen year 205 00:12:57,022 --> 00:13:00,382 Speaker 3: old daughter, they're pretty normal indications that that a girl 206 00:13:00,462 --> 00:13:02,982 Speaker 3: or a woman is heading out somewhere if you've got 207 00:13:03,022 --> 00:13:07,382 Speaker 3: those kind of implements on or on the bench ready 208 00:13:07,382 --> 00:13:11,462 Speaker 3: to take with you. And obviously she didn't, the best 209 00:13:11,462 --> 00:13:14,302 Speaker 3: of our knowledge, go out anywhere. And the other things 210 00:13:14,462 --> 00:13:18,342 Speaker 3: that the police discovered was that Phoebe's Gmail had been 211 00:13:19,102 --> 00:13:25,302 Speaker 3: accessed and messages deleted from her email account, and no 212 00:13:25,342 --> 00:13:29,982 Speaker 3: one really knows what that's about or why either, So 213 00:13:30,862 --> 00:13:35,462 Speaker 3: they're enduring mysteries. And because the police had made that 214 00:13:35,782 --> 00:13:40,222 Speaker 3: quick assumption that this was either a suicide or a 215 00:13:40,222 --> 00:13:46,902 Speaker 3: accidental death, it meant Victoria police couldn't get American authorities, 216 00:13:47,062 --> 00:13:51,502 Speaker 3: so where Google's headquartered, to go in and try and 217 00:13:51,582 --> 00:13:54,942 Speaker 3: download or extract the deleted data to find out what 218 00:13:55,022 --> 00:13:59,342 Speaker 3: went on, because under the legal cooperation treaties between the 219 00:13:59,342 --> 00:14:01,942 Speaker 3: two countries to get them to do that, there has 220 00:14:01,982 --> 00:14:05,982 Speaker 3: to be suspicion or strong evidence of a homicide. 221 00:14:07,622 --> 00:14:10,222 Speaker 1: Just another kind of mystery, isn't it. 222 00:14:10,502 --> 00:14:13,742 Speaker 3: Yeah, another door that couldn't be opened. Now, it maybe 223 00:14:13,902 --> 00:14:17,422 Speaker 3: be a coincidence or something there. But you know, this 224 00:14:17,542 --> 00:14:20,782 Speaker 3: is the after effects, I guess, or the fallout of 225 00:14:21,462 --> 00:14:27,182 Speaker 3: rushing to a conclusion rather than keeping an open mind 226 00:14:27,222 --> 00:14:30,382 Speaker 3: and maybe just gathering all the evidence you can in 227 00:14:30,422 --> 00:14:32,702 Speaker 3: the first place and then make an assessment of what 228 00:14:32,942 --> 00:14:35,502 Speaker 3: is the most likely thing to have happened, whether it 229 00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:40,462 Speaker 3: be a suspicious death or foul play, or a suicide 230 00:14:40,582 --> 00:14:41,342 Speaker 3: or an accident. 231 00:14:42,102 --> 00:14:44,702 Speaker 1: We know that the concierge found Phoebe at about seven. 232 00:14:45,182 --> 00:14:47,222 Speaker 1: What were ants movements that night? 233 00:14:48,022 --> 00:14:53,222 Speaker 3: So his phone records and he's swipe card to enter 234 00:14:53,622 --> 00:14:57,662 Speaker 3: the building show him getting home around ten past six, 235 00:14:58,542 --> 00:15:01,862 Speaker 3: and he says Phoebe wasn't there, and that there was 236 00:15:02,102 --> 00:15:04,662 Speaker 3: like a candle burning and a photo of them or something, 237 00:15:04,742 --> 00:15:08,582 Speaker 3: and some smashed glass and a ripped cushion or something 238 00:15:08,662 --> 00:15:10,702 Speaker 3: like that, so it's a bit of an odd And 239 00:15:11,142 --> 00:15:13,062 Speaker 3: also later it was, you know, it was found out 240 00:15:13,102 --> 00:15:13,782 Speaker 3: that there was some. 241 00:15:13,662 --> 00:15:15,022 Speaker 2: Blood in the apartment. 242 00:15:15,102 --> 00:15:17,662 Speaker 3: Now they were meant to be going out for dinner 243 00:15:18,062 --> 00:15:21,062 Speaker 3: that night with Phoebe's dad, and there was a weird 244 00:15:21,142 --> 00:15:25,382 Speaker 3: phone call to or from their apartment number registered to 245 00:15:25,422 --> 00:15:29,662 Speaker 3: a Western Australian number, and when they checked that number, 246 00:15:29,822 --> 00:15:34,782 Speaker 3: it was wa solar like a solar panel thing that 247 00:15:34,942 --> 00:15:38,502 Speaker 3: nobody knows what the hell that was about, and I 248 00:15:38,502 --> 00:15:41,382 Speaker 3: don't think ant has any recollection. 249 00:15:40,982 --> 00:15:43,542 Speaker 2: Or any idea of what that is. 250 00:15:44,062 --> 00:15:48,822 Speaker 3: What happened next was one of Phoebe's phones rang, and 251 00:15:48,902 --> 00:15:50,862 Speaker 3: I don't know whether the aunt had possession of it 252 00:15:50,982 --> 00:15:53,342 Speaker 3: or not, but it was it was Phoebe's dad and 253 00:15:53,382 --> 00:15:57,302 Speaker 3: he was ringing to confirm dinner or to say that 254 00:15:57,342 --> 00:16:00,062 Speaker 3: where are you, you know, because they haven't rocked up yet. 255 00:16:00,342 --> 00:16:04,622 Speaker 3: And then about sixty seconds later and happened to call 256 00:16:05,182 --> 00:16:08,502 Speaker 3: Phoebe's father back to say, oh, I don't know where 257 00:16:08,502 --> 00:16:11,982 Speaker 3: Phoebe is now, I think, and said that he didn't 258 00:16:12,022 --> 00:16:14,462 Speaker 3: realize that was a coincidence. He didn't know that Phoebe's 259 00:16:14,542 --> 00:16:17,862 Speaker 3: dad had just called sixty seconds earlier looking for her, 260 00:16:18,702 --> 00:16:21,462 Speaker 3: and then as it got closer to seven, I think 261 00:16:21,542 --> 00:16:27,302 Speaker 3: An ordered some takeaway. He assumed that dinners off and 262 00:16:27,342 --> 00:16:31,022 Speaker 3: that maybe Phoebe's dad probably wasn't that keen on just 263 00:16:31,022 --> 00:16:32,342 Speaker 3: having dinner with him on his own. 264 00:16:32,782 --> 00:16:36,542 Speaker 1: Those other kind of bits and pieces you mentioned broken glass, 265 00:16:36,542 --> 00:16:40,862 Speaker 1: a ripped pillow, and blood, were they ever investigated by 266 00:16:40,902 --> 00:16:42,902 Speaker 1: police or locked down as a crime scene. 267 00:16:43,102 --> 00:16:47,102 Speaker 3: The place was eventually locked down for one of a 268 00:16:47,102 --> 00:16:50,542 Speaker 3: better word, or taped off as a crime scene, but 269 00:16:50,582 --> 00:16:52,262 Speaker 3: not till much later in the evening. 270 00:16:52,382 --> 00:16:53,822 Speaker 2: When it's one thing I've always found a. 271 00:16:53,742 --> 00:16:59,342 Speaker 3: Bit unusual, and when that happened, and already had family members, 272 00:16:59,622 --> 00:17:03,102 Speaker 3: including his father, I believe his late father, Supreme Court 273 00:17:03,222 --> 00:17:07,982 Speaker 3: Judge George Hampel, up in the apartment, and I don't 274 00:17:07,982 --> 00:17:10,382 Speaker 3: know what they were doing there, I guess supporting him. 275 00:17:10,862 --> 00:17:12,902 Speaker 2: But again, when you think about how these. 276 00:17:12,782 --> 00:17:16,062 Speaker 3: Things are normally done, I would have thought normal procedure 277 00:17:16,062 --> 00:17:18,942 Speaker 3: would have been to lock down that place, get everyone out, 278 00:17:19,062 --> 00:17:23,462 Speaker 3: preserve the evidence, collect every sample of blood and DNA 279 00:17:24,062 --> 00:17:27,382 Speaker 3: possible in there, and the fragments of glass and the 280 00:17:27,422 --> 00:17:31,182 Speaker 3: computers and anything that might lead to some clues or 281 00:17:31,422 --> 00:17:36,142 Speaker 3: some certainty about what happened, And yeah, the adequacy of 282 00:17:36,422 --> 00:17:40,062 Speaker 3: the steps that were taken that night by police, it 283 00:17:40,142 --> 00:17:43,382 Speaker 3: wasn't good enough. It was inadequate, and they missed testing 284 00:17:43,462 --> 00:17:46,102 Speaker 3: some samples of blood. And to me, wouldn't that be 285 00:17:46,142 --> 00:17:48,102 Speaker 3: a sign of perhaps there's been a struggle. 286 00:17:48,502 --> 00:17:49,502 Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you? You know? 287 00:17:49,582 --> 00:17:53,102 Speaker 3: Also, okay, there were three glasses in the sink, and 288 00:17:53,142 --> 00:17:55,742 Speaker 3: who's been home all day? Why are there three glasses? 289 00:17:55,942 --> 00:17:58,982 Speaker 2: You know? What was in the glasses? Was there? An alcohol? 290 00:17:59,142 --> 00:17:59,382 Speaker 2: Was there? 291 00:17:59,422 --> 00:17:59,502 Speaker 3: This? 292 00:17:59,742 --> 00:18:01,622 Speaker 2: Was there? That not done? 293 00:18:02,102 --> 00:18:05,862 Speaker 3: And the other big failing of that night in terms 294 00:18:05,902 --> 00:18:08,942 Speaker 3: of an investigatory sort of thing, was to actually access 295 00:18:09,022 --> 00:18:12,982 Speaker 3: and seize the CCTV from the apartment building. 296 00:18:13,262 --> 00:18:17,142 Speaker 1: So they didn't do that. No, isn't that basic policing. 297 00:18:17,182 --> 00:18:19,582 Speaker 1: I'm not a police officer putting my hands up, but 298 00:18:19,742 --> 00:18:20,422 Speaker 1: that feels like. 299 00:18:20,462 --> 00:18:24,462 Speaker 3: Sort of on every episode of CSA like that. I mean, it's, yeah, 300 00:18:24,902 --> 00:18:28,222 Speaker 3: I don't know why you wouldn't you wouldn't do that there? 301 00:18:28,262 --> 00:18:32,342 Speaker 3: And then yeah, I know I've always thought, this is 302 00:18:32,382 --> 00:18:36,462 Speaker 3: my own personal opinion here that Phoebe's family were and 303 00:18:36,582 --> 00:18:39,182 Speaker 3: remain owed an apology by Victoria police. 304 00:18:39,942 --> 00:18:43,022 Speaker 1: Was there an issue with getting that CCTV after the fact. 305 00:18:43,062 --> 00:18:45,422 Speaker 1: Could they not get it later when they. 306 00:18:45,302 --> 00:18:49,182 Speaker 3: Went back to get it. I think it had overwritten 307 00:18:49,222 --> 00:18:52,462 Speaker 3: itself or filmed. It was on a loop so it 308 00:18:52,542 --> 00:18:57,142 Speaker 3: was hard to access. And then the building manager, when 309 00:18:57,182 --> 00:18:59,942 Speaker 3: I went to interview him a few years later, mentioned 310 00:19:00,222 --> 00:19:03,382 Speaker 3: a hard drive. This is when Detective Pain who was 311 00:19:03,422 --> 00:19:06,342 Speaker 3: doing the coroner's investigation. I wanted to see if there 312 00:19:06,382 --> 00:19:10,702 Speaker 3: was something on a hard drive that they eventually found 313 00:19:11,302 --> 00:19:14,022 Speaker 3: what looked like the right or relevant hard drive, and 314 00:19:14,062 --> 00:19:15,942 Speaker 3: then that missing from the building. 315 00:19:16,302 --> 00:19:19,422 Speaker 1: What about witness statements or you know, a statement from ant. 316 00:19:19,582 --> 00:19:20,942 Speaker 1: Was that something that happened that night? 317 00:19:21,542 --> 00:19:25,342 Speaker 3: Yeah, he did give a statement, and I think in 318 00:19:25,382 --> 00:19:28,662 Speaker 3: it he mentioned that she was troubled and having battles 319 00:19:28,702 --> 00:19:31,822 Speaker 3: with mental health and poor girl, and you know. 320 00:19:31,782 --> 00:19:32,462 Speaker 2: Things like that. 321 00:19:32,662 --> 00:19:36,942 Speaker 3: And then one of the officers on the scene observed 322 00:19:36,942 --> 00:19:42,262 Speaker 3: in his notebook that was, in his opinion, acting strangely 323 00:19:43,142 --> 00:19:46,382 Speaker 3: and almost sort of putting on the crocodile tears and 324 00:19:47,022 --> 00:19:52,262 Speaker 3: emotion and behaving unusually. But that said, people do cope 325 00:19:52,262 --> 00:19:56,102 Speaker 3: with grief and shock in different ways. And you know, 326 00:19:56,382 --> 00:19:59,022 Speaker 3: I don't think any of the other police remarked one 327 00:19:59,022 --> 00:20:03,582 Speaker 3: way or another on his behavior. And then when Detective 328 00:20:03,902 --> 00:20:07,062 Speaker 3: Pain so that the South Melbourne detective he was given 329 00:20:07,102 --> 00:20:09,982 Speaker 3: the job of forming the brief of evidence for the 330 00:20:10,062 --> 00:20:16,142 Speaker 3: Corona inquest, he wanted to reinterview in January, so you know, 331 00:20:16,182 --> 00:20:20,222 Speaker 3: maybe four or five weeks after Phoebe had died, and 332 00:20:20,542 --> 00:20:24,542 Speaker 3: he wasn't being interviewed under caution or anything. But Ant's father, 333 00:20:24,742 --> 00:20:28,422 Speaker 3: the retired Supreme Court judge, wouldn't leave his sight. And 334 00:20:28,462 --> 00:20:32,662 Speaker 3: even when Detective Pain said, I'd rather talk to him alone. Again, 335 00:20:32,662 --> 00:20:34,622 Speaker 3: we're talking about a forty three year old man here, 336 00:20:35,182 --> 00:20:36,862 Speaker 3: he said, no, my son's grieving. 337 00:20:36,902 --> 00:20:37,982 Speaker 2: I don't want to leave him. 338 00:20:38,022 --> 00:20:40,022 Speaker 1: But I guess that's an important point to make that 339 00:20:40,102 --> 00:20:43,942 Speaker 1: his dad was very high up in the legal system 340 00:20:43,982 --> 00:20:46,302 Speaker 1: in Victoria, which is not a bad thing. It just 341 00:20:46,382 --> 00:20:51,542 Speaker 1: means that this family knows court. They know legalities they do. 342 00:20:51,662 --> 00:20:55,342 Speaker 3: Yeah, they know the law and they know how things 343 00:20:55,422 --> 00:20:59,342 Speaker 3: work and they know the I guess just by virtue 344 00:20:59,382 --> 00:21:03,622 Speaker 3: of the position to Ant's stepmother was a sitting county 345 00:21:03,622 --> 00:21:06,142 Speaker 3: court judge, so that's the equivalent of the district court 346 00:21:06,462 --> 00:21:09,982 Speaker 3: in New South Wales also, so yeah, they know, they 347 00:21:10,022 --> 00:21:11,942 Speaker 3: know the l all they know, you know, how things 348 00:21:11,982 --> 00:21:15,262 Speaker 3: can be pushed how police procedure works, all of those 349 00:21:15,342 --> 00:21:17,502 Speaker 3: kinds of things. And that's not a criticism of them, 350 00:21:17,502 --> 00:21:20,702 Speaker 3: it's just a fact of their experience and the profession 351 00:21:20,942 --> 00:21:25,142 Speaker 3: that they have. But I guess it's human nature. People often, 352 00:21:25,742 --> 00:21:29,502 Speaker 3: rightly or wrongly, tread a bit lightly around powerful people. 353 00:21:29,822 --> 00:21:31,542 Speaker 3: And you know, you've got to wonder whether or not 354 00:21:31,782 --> 00:21:35,142 Speaker 3: that happened here, because the point of doing this podcast 355 00:21:35,342 --> 00:21:38,262 Speaker 3: was to actually put the justice system on display and 356 00:21:38,382 --> 00:21:42,822 Speaker 3: ask the question did it give Phoebe a fair go? 357 00:21:43,742 --> 00:21:45,102 Speaker 2: And I think it. 358 00:21:45,022 --> 00:21:48,102 Speaker 1: Failed well, as you were mentioning before. Within a few days, 359 00:21:48,182 --> 00:21:51,222 Speaker 1: so by the seventh of December, homicide detectives had determined 360 00:21:51,342 --> 00:21:53,822 Speaker 1: that there was no second party involved in Phoebe's death, 361 00:21:54,422 --> 00:21:57,662 Speaker 1: that she entered the shoot voluntarily. How did her family 362 00:21:57,702 --> 00:21:58,462 Speaker 1: react to that. 363 00:21:58,822 --> 00:22:01,342 Speaker 3: I think, you know, they would feel under a bit 364 00:22:01,382 --> 00:22:06,822 Speaker 3: of a tidal wave of emotion and question and trying 365 00:22:06,862 --> 00:22:09,742 Speaker 3: to make sense of it all. But I think they 366 00:22:09,782 --> 00:22:12,902 Speaker 3: were really going to back with the speed which that 367 00:22:13,142 --> 00:22:17,342 Speaker 3: conclusion was reached. And I mean, we look at other examples, 368 00:22:17,382 --> 00:22:22,422 Speaker 3: other prominent cases where women, wives or girlfriends have been 369 00:22:22,542 --> 00:22:26,942 Speaker 3: found dead in suspicious circumstances. So you know, I'm talking 370 00:22:26,982 --> 00:22:30,422 Speaker 3: about the Jill Mark case. Also, you know in Inner 371 00:22:30,462 --> 00:22:34,822 Speaker 3: Melbourne a few years after Phoebe, the early stages of 372 00:22:34,862 --> 00:22:38,382 Speaker 3: those investigations put a bit of media and public heat 373 00:22:38,742 --> 00:22:46,902 Speaker 3: on the husbands and talking to experienced detectives after Phoebe's case, 374 00:22:46,982 --> 00:22:49,222 Speaker 3: they thought that was really odd that this is a 375 00:22:49,262 --> 00:22:55,902 Speaker 3: strange situation. This is a domestic de facto relationship here. 376 00:22:56,142 --> 00:23:00,382 Speaker 3: There is evidence of blood and other things in that 377 00:23:00,622 --> 00:23:05,222 Speaker 3: apartment and was home when Phoebe's body was found. So 378 00:23:05,662 --> 00:23:08,942 Speaker 3: it's again not saying that he was guilty, but why 379 00:23:09,302 --> 00:23:13,742 Speaker 3: wasn't the same standard procedures and processes followed here. 380 00:23:14,382 --> 00:23:17,182 Speaker 1: When did you become involved in this story? It was 381 00:23:17,222 --> 00:23:19,902 Speaker 1: around about now, wasn't it that the family kind of 382 00:23:19,982 --> 00:23:23,102 Speaker 1: contacted you. They were quite frustrated with everything that was happening, 383 00:23:23,142 --> 00:23:27,062 Speaker 1: particularly Phoebe's grandfather, who himself was a retired detective. 384 00:23:27,302 --> 00:23:32,582 Speaker 3: Yeah, so Lawn Campbell, Phoebe's maternal grandfather. It was a 385 00:23:32,702 --> 00:23:37,862 Speaker 3: very experienced Victoria police officer and detective. And he reached 386 00:23:37,902 --> 00:23:42,262 Speaker 3: out to myself and my then colleague and still great mate, 387 00:23:42,462 --> 00:23:46,182 Speaker 3: Nick McKenzie at the age and what he was reaching 388 00:23:46,182 --> 00:23:49,742 Speaker 3: out for was it looked like at that point in time, 389 00:23:49,862 --> 00:23:52,342 Speaker 3: that there was not going to be any inquest by 390 00:23:52,382 --> 00:23:55,422 Speaker 3: the coroner into Phoebe's death, that it was going to 391 00:23:55,422 --> 00:23:57,622 Speaker 3: be written off either as. 392 00:23:57,542 --> 00:24:00,462 Speaker 2: An accident or suicide, with no questions. 393 00:23:59,982 --> 00:24:06,742 Speaker 3: Asked, and Hamble's lawyer had approached the coroner's court saying 394 00:24:06,782 --> 00:24:11,582 Speaker 3: that an inquest was not needed, and that struck me immediately, 395 00:24:11,702 --> 00:24:13,702 Speaker 3: is really weird, and I've. 396 00:24:13,582 --> 00:24:14,302 Speaker 2: Just gone hang on. 397 00:24:14,902 --> 00:24:16,662 Speaker 3: I did a be quick search to find out if 398 00:24:16,702 --> 00:24:18,862 Speaker 3: anyone else in Australia has been found dead at the 399 00:24:18,862 --> 00:24:23,422 Speaker 3: bottom of a garbage chute and found no. Plus you're 400 00:24:23,462 --> 00:24:26,422 Speaker 3: adding all the other stuff that went on in Phoebe's 401 00:24:26,462 --> 00:24:30,862 Speaker 3: last week, and the suspicious kind of scene. 402 00:24:30,742 --> 00:24:32,582 Speaker 2: In the apartment, and the fact that there was. 403 00:24:32,582 --> 00:24:36,502 Speaker 3: No fingerprints on the garbage chute, and the diffiguity of 404 00:24:36,542 --> 00:24:41,182 Speaker 3: getting yourself in there with no external assistance. Of all 405 00:24:41,222 --> 00:24:43,582 Speaker 3: the things that you might want to have an inquest 406 00:24:43,622 --> 00:24:46,462 Speaker 3: into this would be one. Why would a Krona not 407 00:24:46,622 --> 00:24:49,502 Speaker 3: want to do this? And if you are a grieving 408 00:24:49,942 --> 00:24:53,582 Speaker 3: partner of someone who's died in such a bizarre way, 409 00:24:53,702 --> 00:24:55,182 Speaker 3: wouldn't you want to find out why? 410 00:24:55,262 --> 00:24:57,302 Speaker 2: And what happened so instantly for me? 411 00:24:57,662 --> 00:25:01,182 Speaker 3: And I remember Nick was gone, This doesn't feel right, 412 00:25:01,262 --> 00:25:04,622 Speaker 3: This doesn't smell right, it's not right. And we wrote 413 00:25:04,822 --> 00:25:11,502 Speaker 3: quite an extensive feature article detailing all the marks still 414 00:25:11,702 --> 00:25:15,942 Speaker 3: around Phoebe's death, and yeah, putting some pressure on for 415 00:25:15,982 --> 00:25:18,342 Speaker 3: an inquest, that the right thing happened, that there be 416 00:25:18,422 --> 00:25:22,582 Speaker 3: an open and public inquest with witnesses called and the 417 00:25:22,622 --> 00:25:24,902 Speaker 3: facts as the best they could be established, put on 418 00:25:24,902 --> 00:25:25,342 Speaker 3: the table. 419 00:25:25,782 --> 00:25:28,982 Speaker 1: Do you think that without that media pressure the inquest 420 00:25:29,102 --> 00:25:29,822 Speaker 1: might not have happened. 421 00:25:30,222 --> 00:25:31,342 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think it would have. 422 00:25:31,702 --> 00:25:33,662 Speaker 1: Doesn't that make it a bit of a ticker box. 423 00:25:33,982 --> 00:25:34,782 Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. 424 00:25:34,942 --> 00:25:39,542 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's astounding, but I don't think it would have 425 00:25:39,582 --> 00:25:40,022 Speaker 3: gone ahead. 426 00:25:40,022 --> 00:25:41,662 Speaker 2: I think it would have been written off. And in 427 00:25:41,782 --> 00:25:42,902 Speaker 2: Victoria at the time. 428 00:25:42,742 --> 00:25:46,982 Speaker 3: It was basically impossible to appeal a coroner's finding or 429 00:25:47,022 --> 00:25:48,822 Speaker 3: the way the coroner was doing something. 430 00:25:49,222 --> 00:25:51,742 Speaker 1: So once a coroner gives a finding, that's it. 431 00:25:52,622 --> 00:25:54,982 Speaker 2: At the time time, Yeah, and it's still quite hard. 432 00:25:55,062 --> 00:25:58,302 Speaker 3: But you know, one of the I guess silver linings 433 00:25:58,302 --> 00:26:01,822 Speaker 3: of highlighting Phoebe's case and the way the justice system 434 00:26:01,862 --> 00:26:05,262 Speaker 3: performed or didn't perform, was that some amendments were made 435 00:26:05,342 --> 00:26:09,382 Speaker 3: to the Coroner's Act that does open up more avenues 436 00:26:09,462 --> 00:26:15,182 Speaker 3: for families to appeal questionable decisions or findings by a coroner. 437 00:26:18,102 --> 00:26:21,942 Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass. 438 00:26:22,262 --> 00:26:25,742 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with journalists and podcaster Richard Baker about the 439 00:26:25,782 --> 00:26:29,222 Speaker 1: death of Phoebe Hands jock up. Next, Richard tells us 440 00:26:29,262 --> 00:26:36,102 Speaker 1: what the coroner found happened to Phoebe. I want to 441 00:26:36,142 --> 00:26:39,222 Speaker 1: unpack a lot of the evidence from the inquest, but firstly, 442 00:26:39,262 --> 00:26:42,062 Speaker 1: let's jump to the end. What did the inquest find. 443 00:26:42,702 --> 00:26:47,822 Speaker 3: The inquest found that Phoebe was under the influence of 444 00:26:48,502 --> 00:26:53,742 Speaker 3: alcohol and a prescription drug sold here as steel knocks. 445 00:26:53,822 --> 00:26:56,502 Speaker 3: In the States, it's called ambient. It can make people 446 00:26:56,542 --> 00:27:01,942 Speaker 3: do some strange things. And the coroner said that Phoebe 447 00:27:02,542 --> 00:27:07,582 Speaker 3: took herself to the garbage chute, got herself in feet first, 448 00:27:08,182 --> 00:27:12,822 Speaker 3: and then shimmied down and went down, you know, eleven 449 00:27:12,942 --> 00:27:20,262 Speaker 3: or so stories. He said that she put her elbows 450 00:27:20,582 --> 00:27:24,462 Speaker 3: to the edge of the aluminum shoot to kind of 451 00:27:24,902 --> 00:27:30,022 Speaker 3: slow her descent. But I know that the forensic pathologist 452 00:27:30,102 --> 00:27:33,462 Speaker 3: who examined her body and all of that under questioning, 453 00:27:33,982 --> 00:27:35,982 Speaker 3: said he couldn't say that that had happened, and that 454 00:27:36,062 --> 00:27:39,142 Speaker 3: there was no debris on her arms or anything like that. 455 00:27:39,222 --> 00:27:42,262 Speaker 3: And the other difficult thing to think about is that 456 00:27:42,302 --> 00:27:44,942 Speaker 3: when Phoebe was found, she was found with her jeans 457 00:27:45,342 --> 00:27:48,582 Speaker 3: around her knees. So going down, I don't know how 458 00:27:48,622 --> 00:27:50,742 Speaker 3: that might happen. You're more likely to have your pants 459 00:27:50,862 --> 00:27:53,462 Speaker 3: sort of pull up as you're going down rise up. 460 00:27:54,102 --> 00:27:56,782 Speaker 3: But also if they were down before she hopped in 461 00:27:56,822 --> 00:27:58,102 Speaker 3: the chute, how did she get in. 462 00:27:58,342 --> 00:28:01,942 Speaker 1: Because this shoot is I'm using my hands to kind 463 00:28:01,982 --> 00:28:06,222 Speaker 1: of show, but it's about twenty two centimeters that's the gap. 464 00:28:06,542 --> 00:28:09,822 Speaker 2: It's tiny. It's literally like a plastic bag of rubbish. 465 00:28:10,982 --> 00:28:13,742 Speaker 2: So it's not easy. It's not impossible to get into 466 00:28:13,822 --> 00:28:14,342 Speaker 2: on your own. 467 00:28:14,382 --> 00:28:16,862 Speaker 3: But like you've got to be now, Phoebe was fit 468 00:28:16,902 --> 00:28:20,382 Speaker 3: and athletic, but also she's under the influence of stuff. 469 00:28:20,422 --> 00:28:23,782 Speaker 3: You'd have to say a judgment and find motor skills 470 00:28:23,782 --> 00:28:26,902 Speaker 3: could have been impaired. It's really difficult to get into 471 00:28:27,222 --> 00:28:29,582 Speaker 3: on your own and to not leave a fingerprint. I 472 00:28:29,582 --> 00:28:32,102 Speaker 3: don't know how you would manage that. So you know, 473 00:28:32,142 --> 00:28:34,822 Speaker 3: the finding was that she died by a tragic case 474 00:28:34,862 --> 00:28:37,462 Speaker 3: of misadventure, and the cause of death was when she 475 00:28:37,662 --> 00:28:41,022 Speaker 3: got to the bottom, she got caught by a compactor 476 00:28:41,022 --> 00:28:44,462 Speaker 3: blade and it severed. Nellie severed her ankle and she 477 00:28:44,662 --> 00:28:45,582 Speaker 3: lost a lot of blood. 478 00:28:45,982 --> 00:28:49,262 Speaker 1: So rather than suicide, which is what the police found, 479 00:28:49,502 --> 00:28:52,982 Speaker 1: the coroner found that it was accidental death or misadventure. 480 00:28:53,382 --> 00:28:54,142 Speaker 2: Yeah, he did. 481 00:28:54,542 --> 00:28:58,502 Speaker 3: And what was kind of stood out about that was 482 00:28:59,142 --> 00:29:03,062 Speaker 3: he went against the advice or the submissions of counsel assisting. 483 00:29:03,182 --> 00:29:07,742 Speaker 3: So that's a senior barrister that's appointed by the court 484 00:29:08,102 --> 00:29:12,862 Speaker 3: to basically lead the in Now, the coroner is of 485 00:29:12,902 --> 00:29:17,342 Speaker 3: an independent mind, but the inquest is run by the 486 00:29:17,542 --> 00:29:20,822 Speaker 3: counsel assisting the coroner, this senior barrister, and in this 487 00:29:20,942 --> 00:29:25,222 Speaker 3: case the barrister deborahs amendsma in hearst. The missions had 488 00:29:25,342 --> 00:29:29,702 Speaker 3: submitted that only an open finding be made. And what 489 00:29:29,782 --> 00:29:34,142 Speaker 3: an open finding is is that the evidence you couldn't 490 00:29:34,262 --> 00:29:37,902 Speaker 3: rule in or rule out foul play or the involvement 491 00:29:37,942 --> 00:29:41,702 Speaker 3: of other parties. You couldn't rule in or rule out suicide, 492 00:29:42,102 --> 00:29:45,542 Speaker 3: and you couldn't rule in or rule out death by 493 00:29:45,582 --> 00:29:50,422 Speaker 3: misadventure or an accident. And that to me was the 494 00:29:50,502 --> 00:29:53,902 Speaker 3: right finding on the evidence there. And that's all Phoebe's 495 00:29:53,902 --> 00:29:56,622 Speaker 3: family I've ever said as well. They don't think that 496 00:29:56,782 --> 00:30:01,182 Speaker 3: evidence is there to convict anyone for it because they 497 00:30:01,222 --> 00:30:05,742 Speaker 3: don't know whether that's for sure what happened. But why again, 498 00:30:05,822 --> 00:30:08,702 Speaker 3: would you have to you know, I find it odd 499 00:30:08,702 --> 00:30:11,142 Speaker 3: that you have to kind of stitch together a narrative 500 00:30:11,302 --> 00:30:15,462 Speaker 3: that's not supported in some cases by the evidence at 501 00:30:15,462 --> 00:30:19,782 Speaker 3: your inquest when you had a perfectly reasonable finding to make, 502 00:30:19,822 --> 00:30:20,862 Speaker 3: which is open. 503 00:30:21,142 --> 00:30:23,982 Speaker 1: And to be clear, if an open finding is what 504 00:30:24,022 --> 00:30:26,182 Speaker 1: the coroner was to rule, would that have left the 505 00:30:26,262 --> 00:30:30,462 Speaker 1: door open to potentially look down a murder investigation if 506 00:30:30,462 --> 00:30:32,462 Speaker 1: more evidence was to come out, it kind of leaves 507 00:30:32,502 --> 00:30:33,302 Speaker 1: the door open. 508 00:30:33,862 --> 00:30:37,502 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's easier for the court, you know, to act 509 00:30:37,582 --> 00:30:42,022 Speaker 3: on new and fresh information. So, you know, because of 510 00:30:42,062 --> 00:30:44,942 Speaker 3: finding has been reached, it doesn't mean you know, and 511 00:30:44,982 --> 00:30:48,622 Speaker 3: if it's really good information that changes things out, would 512 00:30:48,662 --> 00:30:51,022 Speaker 3: then take it back under the umbrella of the police 513 00:30:51,342 --> 00:30:54,942 Speaker 3: to go and investigate that. So just because these findings made, 514 00:30:54,942 --> 00:30:59,342 Speaker 3: it doesn't mean police are forbidden from acting on fresh evidence, 515 00:31:00,102 --> 00:31:02,782 Speaker 3: and neither is the court. But it just is another 516 00:31:03,142 --> 00:31:05,982 Speaker 3: a blockage. I guess it makes it that bit harder 517 00:31:06,022 --> 00:31:07,902 Speaker 3: for the court or for the family or for new 518 00:31:07,902 --> 00:31:10,622 Speaker 3: people to present new evidence to the court to get 519 00:31:10,662 --> 00:31:14,622 Speaker 3: that finding overturned and perhaps made into an open finding, 520 00:31:14,862 --> 00:31:19,302 Speaker 3: because then you have to really go about undoing the 521 00:31:19,342 --> 00:31:22,382 Speaker 3: finding that's already there to then be able to add 522 00:31:22,942 --> 00:31:24,982 Speaker 3: the new information to the mix. 523 00:31:26,062 --> 00:31:28,782 Speaker 1: We've already talked about some of the weird clues. The 524 00:31:28,782 --> 00:31:31,582 Speaker 1: one that sticks out to me is the no fingerprints 525 00:31:31,582 --> 00:31:34,382 Speaker 1: on the shoote. I've watched a young girl who is 526 00:31:34,422 --> 00:31:37,182 Speaker 1: the same kind of heightened build as Phoebe try and 527 00:31:37,222 --> 00:31:40,542 Speaker 1: get into that rubbish shoot and I just don't see 528 00:31:40,582 --> 00:31:42,542 Speaker 1: how you would do it by yourself and not put 529 00:31:42,582 --> 00:31:47,302 Speaker 1: fingerprints the pants around the ankles, as we've mentioned. But 530 00:31:47,382 --> 00:31:50,862 Speaker 1: then another kind of clue that came up in the 531 00:31:50,862 --> 00:31:53,262 Speaker 1: inquest was bruising. Can you talk us through that? 532 00:31:53,782 --> 00:31:58,102 Speaker 3: Yeah, So Detective Pain was having a look at some 533 00:31:58,182 --> 00:32:03,062 Speaker 3: of the medical examination photos of Phoebe's body and had 534 00:32:03,102 --> 00:32:07,262 Speaker 3: picked up on some bruising around her arms and also 535 00:32:07,582 --> 00:32:11,182 Speaker 3: on the side of her of her face, and he 536 00:32:11,342 --> 00:32:15,942 Speaker 3: asked for the pathologist to take another look, and he 537 00:32:15,982 --> 00:32:18,542 Speaker 3: came back and said, yeah, there is some bruising to 538 00:32:19,182 --> 00:32:21,862 Speaker 3: I think the jaw or the side of one of 539 00:32:22,142 --> 00:32:25,782 Speaker 3: the side of Phoebe's face, But also then some bruising 540 00:32:25,862 --> 00:32:29,662 Speaker 3: marks around her arms that he said could be consistent 541 00:32:29,742 --> 00:32:35,222 Speaker 3: with grip marks. So like being forcefully held and that 542 00:32:35,622 --> 00:32:39,382 Speaker 3: you know, again that was overlooked initially, like no one 543 00:32:39,382 --> 00:32:42,702 Speaker 3: had picked up on that, and it wasn't until Detective 544 00:32:42,742 --> 00:32:45,182 Speaker 3: Pain was at the doing the brief for the coroner 545 00:32:45,822 --> 00:32:51,142 Speaker 3: that this understanding of bruising to her made it into 546 00:32:51,222 --> 00:32:51,942 Speaker 3: all the evidence. 547 00:33:02,942 --> 00:33:04,502 Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit more about the 548 00:33:04,582 --> 00:33:08,742 Speaker 1: days and weeks after Phoebe died and the reactions of 549 00:33:08,782 --> 00:33:13,622 Speaker 1: her inner circle, because Natalie, Phoebe's mom really wanted to 550 00:33:13,662 --> 00:33:16,142 Speaker 1: kind of understand what happened, and so she asked for 551 00:33:16,182 --> 00:33:19,102 Speaker 1: a chat with aunt. Can you tell us what happened? 552 00:33:19,502 --> 00:33:24,302 Speaker 3: Yeah, So Natalie hands Druck, Phoebe's mum, went to Ant's 553 00:33:24,342 --> 00:33:27,182 Speaker 3: apartment and just really wanted to have. 554 00:33:28,542 --> 00:33:30,222 Speaker 2: Just to break the. 555 00:33:30,182 --> 00:33:33,102 Speaker 3: Bread sort of chat and find out what was going on, 556 00:33:33,342 --> 00:33:35,422 Speaker 3: you know, what had happened in that last week, trying 557 00:33:35,422 --> 00:33:37,662 Speaker 3: to get some answers. And I also think they were 558 00:33:37,702 --> 00:33:41,422 Speaker 3: trying to work out funeral details and stuff like that, 559 00:33:41,622 --> 00:33:46,142 Speaker 3: because Ant had pressed his case to be next of kin, 560 00:33:46,382 --> 00:33:49,462 Speaker 3: as they'd been living together as de facto's more than 561 00:33:49,502 --> 00:33:55,542 Speaker 3: six months, and Natalie was kind of protesting that because 562 00:33:55,622 --> 00:33:59,262 Speaker 3: that many had control over her body, also control over 563 00:33:59,582 --> 00:34:01,982 Speaker 3: you know, obviously with the body, where a funeral would be, 564 00:34:02,022 --> 00:34:04,462 Speaker 3: what sort of event it would be. And then it 565 00:34:04,502 --> 00:34:10,062 Speaker 3: emerged that she had life insurance policy and that gave 566 00:34:10,142 --> 00:34:13,142 Speaker 3: him access to that, although down the track he did 567 00:34:13,182 --> 00:34:15,862 Speaker 3: give up all of those things. So Natt went there 568 00:34:15,902 --> 00:34:17,622 Speaker 3: for a meeting to sort out a lot, to get 569 00:34:17,662 --> 00:34:21,382 Speaker 3: some understanding, but also to try and flesh out why 570 00:34:21,422 --> 00:34:24,782 Speaker 3: he was pushing for next of kin and stuff like that. 571 00:34:25,502 --> 00:34:28,822 Speaker 3: And she recorded the meeting. Why well, you know, I 572 00:34:28,862 --> 00:34:31,582 Speaker 3: think she was suspicious and was wanting to gather some 573 00:34:31,622 --> 00:34:34,222 Speaker 3: evidence and I guess, given the police had already given up, 574 00:34:34,302 --> 00:34:37,302 Speaker 3: who else was going to do it, And so she 575 00:34:37,462 --> 00:34:40,662 Speaker 3: recorded it and I've heard and I think we played 576 00:34:40,662 --> 00:34:42,822 Speaker 3: in the podcast a part of that recording that was 577 00:34:42,822 --> 00:34:44,702 Speaker 3: played in the coroner's. 578 00:34:44,302 --> 00:34:46,622 Speaker 2: Court, and yeah, it was. 579 00:34:46,862 --> 00:34:52,382 Speaker 3: It was pretty strange and had his stepmother, Felicity Hample, 580 00:34:52,462 --> 00:34:55,062 Speaker 3: the judge there with him. I believe his father might 581 00:34:55,102 --> 00:34:59,182 Speaker 3: have been there, and a couple of other support people, 582 00:35:00,022 --> 00:35:07,822 Speaker 3: and the conversation, yeah, went around funerals and Natalie wanting 583 00:35:07,902 --> 00:35:10,942 Speaker 3: to push her case for the family to to do 584 00:35:10,982 --> 00:35:14,302 Speaker 3: the farewell and wanted his own service, and on the 585 00:35:14,382 --> 00:35:19,022 Speaker 3: tape and stepmom for the city reminded Phoebe that under 586 00:35:19,062 --> 00:35:19,622 Speaker 3: the law. 587 00:35:19,622 --> 00:35:23,182 Speaker 2: And was next of kin and had this right to 588 00:35:23,222 --> 00:35:26,222 Speaker 2: do what he wanted. So yeah, it was a kind. 589 00:35:26,102 --> 00:35:31,942 Speaker 3: Of strange situation, and Natalie said and was acting strangely, 590 00:35:32,502 --> 00:35:35,262 Speaker 3: and I think at one point went over to the 591 00:35:35,262 --> 00:35:37,982 Speaker 3: couch and was just kind of in a fetal position 592 00:35:38,502 --> 00:35:41,222 Speaker 3: with grief, and she's found the whole thing really odd. 593 00:35:41,262 --> 00:35:44,142 Speaker 3: And I think there was also quite loud music playing 594 00:35:44,422 --> 00:35:48,902 Speaker 3: in the background, which I don't know why it was there, maybe. 595 00:35:49,462 --> 00:35:51,302 Speaker 2: Made hearing the tape if he could. 596 00:35:52,062 --> 00:35:54,622 Speaker 1: In any event, there ended up being a bit of 597 00:35:54,702 --> 00:35:58,102 Speaker 1: a rift kind of formed between Phoebe's family and ants didn't. 598 00:35:57,862 --> 00:36:00,782 Speaker 2: There Yeah, pretty quickly, especially over the. 599 00:36:02,262 --> 00:36:05,022 Speaker 3: Next of kin's staff and not releasing the body and 600 00:36:05,062 --> 00:36:09,222 Speaker 3: then applying to access her insurance policy and a state 601 00:36:09,662 --> 00:36:13,182 Speaker 3: George ham Paul wrote a letter of support affirming their 602 00:36:13,222 --> 00:36:17,942 Speaker 3: relationship and the genuineness of it to convince the relevant 603 00:36:17,982 --> 00:36:21,182 Speaker 3: authorities that should be the beneficiary. 604 00:36:21,502 --> 00:36:21,862 Speaker 2: Now. 605 00:36:21,902 --> 00:36:25,062 Speaker 3: Like I said, he later gave those moneies and things 606 00:36:25,062 --> 00:36:29,222 Speaker 3: to Phoebe's brothers. But yeah, the whole dynamic was pretty 607 00:36:29,222 --> 00:36:33,182 Speaker 3: frosty because of the unanswered questions, and I think the 608 00:36:33,302 --> 00:36:35,742 Speaker 3: odd behavior and the other thing I think that really 609 00:36:36,022 --> 00:36:41,622 Speaker 3: pissed the family off was announcing Phoebe's death on Facebook, 610 00:36:41,702 --> 00:36:43,822 Speaker 3: saying that she was a troubled young woman and he 611 00:36:43,942 --> 00:36:46,702 Speaker 3: did his best to save her, but she's taken her 612 00:36:46,742 --> 00:36:47,582 Speaker 3: own life. 613 00:36:47,542 --> 00:36:50,822 Speaker 1: Which is something that they just categorically don't think is true. 614 00:36:51,062 --> 00:36:51,622 Speaker 2: They don't think. 615 00:36:51,822 --> 00:36:53,542 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they've got an open mind on it, 616 00:36:53,622 --> 00:36:56,742 Speaker 3: but they think that's the least likely. Also, why would 617 00:36:56,742 --> 00:36:57,742 Speaker 3: you do it in that way? 618 00:36:58,302 --> 00:37:02,142 Speaker 1: To reiterate at hasn't been implicated in Phoebe's death, but 619 00:37:02,302 --> 00:37:05,662 Speaker 1: the public record does show that Phoebe is not the 620 00:37:05,942 --> 00:37:10,782 Speaker 1: only young girlfriend he has had who has died in 621 00:37:10,862 --> 00:37:12,182 Speaker 1: unusual circumstances. 622 00:37:12,782 --> 00:37:16,902 Speaker 3: No, in twenty eighteen, I got a phone call from 623 00:37:17,302 --> 00:37:20,862 Speaker 3: Natalie Hanshak and she just said, are you sitting down? 624 00:37:20,942 --> 00:37:21,902 Speaker 2: And I was at work. 625 00:37:21,902 --> 00:37:25,542 Speaker 3: I remember it really clearly, and said no, but do 626 00:37:25,582 --> 00:37:27,382 Speaker 3: I need to? She goes, I think you do, and 627 00:37:27,422 --> 00:37:29,462 Speaker 3: she just said it's happened again. I said, what do 628 00:37:29,462 --> 00:37:34,102 Speaker 3: you mean she goes and had another girlfriend die? And 629 00:37:34,142 --> 00:37:37,342 Speaker 3: I said, you're kidding me? And how and all of that, 630 00:37:37,502 --> 00:37:40,262 Speaker 3: And so the young woman we're talking about here is 631 00:37:40,422 --> 00:37:44,382 Speaker 3: a young Melbourne woman called Bailey Schneider who had been 632 00:37:44,502 --> 00:37:47,182 Speaker 3: seeing and in. 633 00:37:47,222 --> 00:37:50,062 Speaker 2: A more casual way I guess than Phoebe. 634 00:37:50,182 --> 00:37:53,102 Speaker 3: They weren't living together, but they had holidayed together and 635 00:37:53,742 --> 00:37:59,742 Speaker 3: were in a intimate relationship. And Bailey was twenty five 636 00:38:00,302 --> 00:38:03,902 Speaker 3: again had her issues with mental health and how she 637 00:38:03,982 --> 00:38:08,702 Speaker 3: viewed herself, issues with alcohol and drugs and partying. 638 00:38:08,262 --> 00:38:09,302 Speaker 2: And things like that. 639 00:38:09,662 --> 00:38:15,502 Speaker 3: And she was found in her parents' home in ascot Vale, 640 00:38:15,662 --> 00:38:22,022 Speaker 3: a suburban Melbourne's in a northwest hanging with a curtain 641 00:38:22,102 --> 00:38:24,822 Speaker 3: cord or She's found on the floor of the kitchen 642 00:38:24,862 --> 00:38:26,382 Speaker 3: with a curtain cord around her neck. 643 00:38:27,102 --> 00:38:28,182 Speaker 2: And the belief was. 644 00:38:28,102 --> 00:38:32,182 Speaker 3: She hung herself from a kitchen cupboard and her parents 645 00:38:32,782 --> 00:38:34,502 Speaker 3: had just gone out for an hour to go to 646 00:38:34,582 --> 00:38:37,582 Speaker 3: the shops and she'd asked them to bring something back 647 00:38:37,622 --> 00:38:37,982 Speaker 3: to eat. 648 00:38:38,502 --> 00:38:40,062 Speaker 1: Wow. I just tragic. 649 00:38:40,582 --> 00:38:46,022 Speaker 3: Yeah, And now has been cleared of any involvement in 650 00:38:46,062 --> 00:38:50,742 Speaker 3: her death by a police investigation and also a coroner's report. 651 00:38:50,862 --> 00:38:54,742 Speaker 3: This one didn't go to in quest, but he was 652 00:38:55,462 --> 00:38:58,942 Speaker 3: one of the last people to communicate with her overnight 653 00:38:59,022 --> 00:39:04,182 Speaker 3: and that day they had phone calls and had exchange 654 00:39:04,662 --> 00:39:09,982 Speaker 3: messages over Facebook Messenger and things like that, and Bailey's 655 00:39:10,022 --> 00:39:15,982 Speaker 3: parents wondering about what the impact of their relationship was 656 00:39:16,022 --> 00:39:18,942 Speaker 3: on her state of mind and her mental health in 657 00:39:18,982 --> 00:39:21,062 Speaker 3: the weeks and months leading up to her death. 658 00:39:21,902 --> 00:39:27,262 Speaker 1: You released your series on Phoebe in twenty sixteen. What 659 00:39:27,462 --> 00:39:29,942 Speaker 1: was the reaction like when you put all of this 660 00:39:30,062 --> 00:39:31,382 Speaker 1: evidence out? 661 00:39:31,862 --> 00:39:32,902 Speaker 2: It was overwhelming. 662 00:39:32,982 --> 00:39:39,862 Speaker 3: Actually, you know Australia, two years before in America, Cereal 663 00:39:39,982 --> 00:39:43,542 Speaker 3: had released the first version of the serial podcast and 664 00:39:43,582 --> 00:39:46,942 Speaker 3: that kind of turned people on to I guess, that 665 00:39:47,062 --> 00:39:51,382 Speaker 3: way of getting really deep into a story. And it 666 00:39:51,422 --> 00:39:55,062 Speaker 3: had been eating at me since the outcome of the Inquest, 667 00:39:55,182 --> 00:39:58,582 Speaker 3: which was delivered in twenty fourteen. We hadn't told this 668 00:39:58,662 --> 00:40:03,662 Speaker 3: story right yet, and I thought, with no experience in 669 00:40:03,702 --> 00:40:07,222 Speaker 3: podcasting at that stage or skills, that this would be 670 00:40:07,222 --> 00:40:11,542 Speaker 3: the way to tell it. And yeah, it was difficult 671 00:40:11,622 --> 00:40:14,422 Speaker 3: and a real challenge, and they needed a lot of 672 00:40:14,462 --> 00:40:16,622 Speaker 3: help from a lot of good people along the way 673 00:40:16,662 --> 00:40:19,502 Speaker 3: to help write it and tell it and all of that. 674 00:40:19,622 --> 00:40:21,902 Speaker 2: But once we released it, it was massive. 675 00:40:22,062 --> 00:40:27,862 Speaker 3: It was like it just went gangbusters, and people were 676 00:40:27,902 --> 00:40:30,622 Speaker 3: asking questions of the justice system. 677 00:40:30,382 --> 00:40:31,542 Speaker 2: That we all rely on. 678 00:40:31,742 --> 00:40:33,422 Speaker 3: We all don't want to have to rely on it, 679 00:40:33,462 --> 00:40:36,342 Speaker 3: but any day we could be relying on it to 680 00:40:36,502 --> 00:40:42,582 Speaker 3: work properly. Fairly and nothing's perfect, but to do its job. 681 00:40:42,622 --> 00:40:46,262 Speaker 3: And what Phoebe's story did was tell a story of 682 00:40:46,542 --> 00:40:49,062 Speaker 3: on a few levels that are really pertinent to the 683 00:40:49,102 --> 00:40:55,782 Speaker 3: community about you know, power imbalances in relationships, power imbalances 684 00:40:55,902 --> 00:41:00,862 Speaker 3: between families in different layers or levels of society, and 685 00:41:01,102 --> 00:41:04,502 Speaker 3: the performance of the justice system and who gets its 686 00:41:04,542 --> 00:41:10,142 Speaker 3: mercy and who gets short changed through you know, inadequate 687 00:41:10,182 --> 00:41:13,902 Speaker 3: and instigations and things like that. So I thought, wow, 688 00:41:14,622 --> 00:41:16,702 Speaker 3: you can get this right, and you can tell the 689 00:41:16,822 --> 00:41:21,262 Speaker 3: story in a factual but engaging kind of way that 690 00:41:21,422 --> 00:41:24,782 Speaker 3: allows people to kind of see it play out inside 691 00:41:24,782 --> 00:41:27,262 Speaker 3: their own heads, which is what the beauty of good 692 00:41:27,302 --> 00:41:30,742 Speaker 3: podcasting is. They have a longer shelf life and that 693 00:41:30,782 --> 00:41:34,302 Speaker 3: to me then gives it more scope to actually get 694 00:41:34,342 --> 00:41:37,862 Speaker 3: our politicians and other authorities to act well. 695 00:41:37,902 --> 00:41:40,542 Speaker 1: This podcast did help do that right. It helped the 696 00:41:40,622 --> 00:41:43,862 Speaker 1: Victorian government decide that they were going to review the 697 00:41:43,942 --> 00:41:44,782 Speaker 1: Coroners Act. 698 00:41:45,022 --> 00:41:45,622 Speaker 2: Yeah, they did. 699 00:41:45,662 --> 00:41:48,222 Speaker 3: So they did a review into the Coroners Act with 700 00:41:48,342 --> 00:41:54,662 Speaker 3: a focus on the difficulties or impediments to appealing outcomes 701 00:41:54,742 --> 00:41:57,822 Speaker 3: or decisions of the Coroner's Court, and then some amendments 702 00:41:57,822 --> 00:42:00,902 Speaker 3: were made to make it that bit easier for families 703 00:42:00,942 --> 00:42:05,182 Speaker 3: to challenge things, which is, you know, is a good outcome. 704 00:42:05,382 --> 00:42:08,902 Speaker 3: So hopefully because of what happened with Phoebe's in a 705 00:42:09,302 --> 00:42:12,462 Speaker 3: case and the high like we're a spotlight we put 706 00:42:12,462 --> 00:42:16,582 Speaker 3: on it, other families won't have the door closed to 707 00:42:16,662 --> 00:42:20,582 Speaker 3: them for challenging decisions and things that happen in the 708 00:42:20,622 --> 00:42:24,022 Speaker 3: coroner's court that they disagree with or they believe aren't 709 00:42:24,062 --> 00:42:28,262 Speaker 3: supported by evidence. Because a finding, when you don't have 710 00:42:28,502 --> 00:42:32,622 Speaker 3: a prosecution or someone to blame, you know, a coroner's 711 00:42:32,702 --> 00:42:36,102 Speaker 3: findings all you've got. That's the legal final word. That's 712 00:42:36,142 --> 00:42:39,302 Speaker 3: how the state says your loved one died and the 713 00:42:39,342 --> 00:42:41,342 Speaker 3: circumstances with which they died. 714 00:42:41,782 --> 00:42:44,342 Speaker 2: If you don't agree with that, or you think. 715 00:42:44,142 --> 00:42:49,502 Speaker 3: That it's made on false assumptions and isn't fact or 716 00:42:49,542 --> 00:42:51,782 Speaker 3: isn't true, that's a lot to live with. That's a 717 00:42:51,822 --> 00:42:56,182 Speaker 3: really heavy thing to go. Well, the record says, you know, 718 00:42:56,302 --> 00:42:59,262 Speaker 3: my brother's sister whatever died this way, but I don't 719 00:42:59,262 --> 00:43:02,062 Speaker 3: believe it, and I don't think when you assess the 720 00:43:02,102 --> 00:43:05,902 Speaker 3: evidence rationally, when there was a much more obvious and 721 00:43:06,102 --> 00:43:09,982 Speaker 3: acceptable finding in this case, open finding, I'd find that 722 00:43:10,022 --> 00:43:10,382 Speaker 3: really hard. 723 00:43:10,542 --> 00:43:11,022 Speaker 2: The stomach. 724 00:43:11,822 --> 00:43:14,262 Speaker 1: Where do we sit with Phoebe's case? Now, it's say 725 00:43:14,382 --> 00:43:17,062 Speaker 1: years since you know, all of those changes were announced 726 00:43:17,062 --> 00:43:20,982 Speaker 1: and we were able to appeal. Has Phoebe's finding changed? 727 00:43:21,382 --> 00:43:22,582 Speaker 1: Has anything else happened? 728 00:43:23,262 --> 00:43:25,942 Speaker 3: I am Phoebe's family and others. You know, still get 729 00:43:25,942 --> 00:43:30,142 Speaker 3: people coming forward with bits and pieces of information. You know, 730 00:43:30,262 --> 00:43:34,342 Speaker 3: some of it may be irrelevant, some of it. 731 00:43:33,462 --> 00:43:34,542 Speaker 2: Looks to be relevant. 732 00:43:34,702 --> 00:43:38,422 Speaker 3: Ah, yeah, you know, there's nothing's changed. 733 00:43:38,462 --> 00:43:39,982 Speaker 2: The finding is still the finding. 734 00:43:40,142 --> 00:43:44,342 Speaker 3: The same question marks over that finding from those who 735 00:43:44,582 --> 00:43:47,822 Speaker 3: don't think it's the right one still exist. I think 736 00:43:48,182 --> 00:43:51,942 Speaker 3: Phoebe's family believe, and I believe, and I have, you know, 737 00:43:51,982 --> 00:43:55,182 Speaker 3: some foundation for this belief that there are people out 738 00:43:55,222 --> 00:43:58,462 Speaker 3: there who know a bit more, who she may have 739 00:43:58,542 --> 00:44:01,822 Speaker 3: come across or was involved with in that final week 740 00:44:02,222 --> 00:44:06,782 Speaker 3: of her life, who for whatever reason, weren't questioned by police, 741 00:44:06,942 --> 00:44:10,022 Speaker 3: perhaps because they weren't known to police or weren't obviously 742 00:44:10,062 --> 00:44:14,742 Speaker 3: connect to her in that way. I feel that her story, 743 00:44:15,262 --> 00:44:16,942 Speaker 3: you know, I think there'll be one or two more 744 00:44:17,182 --> 00:44:19,222 Speaker 3: twists or turns before too long. 745 00:44:23,822 --> 00:44:26,222 Speaker 1: Thanks to Richard for helping us to tell this story 746 00:44:26,422 --> 00:44:30,062 Speaker 1: and to reiterate, Anthony Happle has not been implicated in 747 00:44:30,142 --> 00:44:33,742 Speaker 1: Phoebe's death. The coroner's finding legally stands to this day, 748 00:44:34,142 --> 00:44:36,822 Speaker 1: ruling that the twenty four year old's death was an accident. 749 00:44:37,382 --> 00:44:40,382 Speaker 1: We'll leave a link to Richard's podcast Phoebe's full in 750 00:44:40,422 --> 00:44:43,542 Speaker 1: our show notes. True Crime Conversations is a MoMA mea 751 00:44:43,622 --> 00:44:47,502 Speaker 1: podcast hosted and produced by me Jemma Bass and Tylie Blackman, 752 00:44:47,742 --> 00:44:51,182 Speaker 1: with audio design by Tom Lyon. Thanks so much for listening. 753 00:44:51,502 --> 00:44:54,382 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.