Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
Speaker 2: to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
Speaker 2: continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
Speaker 2: been a fundamental part of Indigenous culture. Hi. I'm Cassanya
Speaker 2: Lukitch and this is diary of a birth. What would
Speaker 2: you do for a friend? Pick them up from the airport,
Speaker 2: hold them when they cried, carry their baby. Today's story
Speaker 2: is one of a beautiful relationship and one couple's six
Speaker 2: year journey to become parents. It's full of heart, humor,
Speaker 2: and friendship that is tested by some very awkward situations.
Speaker 1: In all of a sudden, I find myself with my
Speaker 1: hand in between my best friend's legs. I just remember
Speaker 1: looking at her and going, I don't think our friendship
Speaker 1: can get much more more close than this.
Speaker 2: So let's meet today's dad.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 1: I'm Matthew Knnop and this is my Sarregacy birth story
Speaker 1: with my little boy, Archer.
Speaker 2: So what was life like for Matthew before Archer was born?
Speaker 1: My partner of vincen I've been together for fifteen years
Speaker 1: and lovers of travel, spent many of those years overseas,
Speaker 1: lived over in the UK together, and traveled around Europe
Speaker 1: and did all those things that you're meant to do
Speaker 1: in your twenties, and we had very chalk and cheese,
Speaker 1: I think, is how I would describe ourselves.
Speaker 2: When did you guys sort of start the discussion about
Speaker 2: having children together?
Speaker 1: Early on, when we first met, we had discussed the
Speaker 1: idea of children. Obviously, as too men, we knew that
Speaker 1: it was probably going to be a difficult journey, and
Speaker 1: understanding the roads that could lead to parenthood was something
Speaker 1: that was a challenge in itself. Particularly I think we're
Speaker 1: kind of going back fifteen years. We weren't too sure
Speaker 1: whether a it would be a possibility, or b if
Speaker 1: it was something that we wanted to go after, how
Speaker 1: we would even get there. So we knew early on,
Speaker 1: I suppose there's a couple that it was always something
Speaker 1: that we were interested in, and I think we both
Speaker 1: had that yearning and that idea around wanting to be
Speaker 1: a father and wanting to be parents, But it wasn't
Speaker 1: probably until i'd say about five or six years ago
Speaker 1: that we started to explore the possibility with a little
Speaker 1: bit more intention and ended up I suppose unraveling this
Speaker 1: whole world of sarrogacy and diving deep into that community
Speaker 1: and really understanding I suppose what that meant and what
Speaker 1: options existed for us as two men to become parents
Speaker 1: through that pathway.
Speaker 2: Was there something in particular about sarrogacy that you preferred
Speaker 2: over adoption.
Speaker 1: It's an interesting conversation. I think that there's a lot
Speaker 1: of challenges for both pathways for same sex parents to
Speaker 1: be able to explore either adoption or surrogacy in Australia.
Speaker 2: I think neither is easy.
Speaker 1: Neither is easy, and I think it's a long path
Speaker 1: that is complicated, and the laws, legislation and policies around
Speaker 1: both mix are constantly evolving a challenge to navigate, and
Speaker 1: as an individual, I think you feel quite overwhelmed by
Speaker 1: even entering the space and trying to understand where you
Speaker 1: go for information and how you can navigate that with
Speaker 1: your partner. Meanwhile, obviously that's not even at a point
Speaker 1: where you're having someone to take care of yet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it can be overwhelming and I think it can be
Speaker 1: a deterrent for a lot of people as well. And
Speaker 1: navigating their way through their journey to becoming a parent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's something really special about people who
Speaker 2: have difficult journeys to becoming parents, whether it's IVF sorogusy,
Speaker 2: whatever their particular journey getting through that you really want
Speaker 2: to be a parent, You really want to be a parent.
Speaker 2: I've mentioned this is quite a few times, but I
Speaker 2: went through IBF with my first and it is something
Speaker 2: about it. This is not an accident. There's absolutely nothing
Speaker 2: wrong with people who are able to feel pregnant it
Speaker 2: that way, of course, but I think there is something
Speaker 2: that it's like, you know what, this is an intention
Speaker 2: and it is really well thought out, and it's not
Speaker 2: an easy path to go down. You really want to be.
Speaker 1: Parent, you really do, and I think that putting your
Speaker 1: heart and soul into that intention it's not a flippant
Speaker 1: decision either, in the sense that our journey with Archer
Speaker 1: took six years from beginning to end, and you know,
Speaker 1: kind of taken into account the waiting and the pain
Speaker 1: and the changes and the hiccups and everything that kind
Speaker 1: of went along that happened to us throughout that time period.
Speaker 2: Tell us about meeting your surrogate and how you guys
Speaker 2: got pregnant.
Speaker 1: So our Phoebe, who is going to be listening to this,
Speaker 1: I have to give her a shout out, h.
Speaker 2: I Phoebe, well done.
Speaker 1: Phoebe has been a longtime friend of mine Vince's twelve
Speaker 1: years I think or thirteen years, so we knew her
Speaker 1: really well. She was someone who had watched us go
Speaker 1: through the planning stage of our parenting journey, and it
Speaker 1: was quite funny I suppose how that whole setup took place.
Speaker 1: We were kind of in the thick of planning things
Speaker 1: out and trying to engage with the Saragaze community at
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 2: And was that via Facebook? Was it Facebook group? It
Speaker 2: seems to be that's kind of the first port.
Speaker 1: Of call there are. There are a number of Facebook
Speaker 1: groups out there which connect ips, which is intended parents
Speaker 1: and surrogates or potential surrogates. And I think that the
Speaker 1: community out there is really beautiful and really wholesome and
Speaker 1: their ability to just connect with everyone in that community,
Speaker 1: to be able to connect with one another is a
Speaker 1: beautiful thing. And Phoebe had to I suppose, watched us
Speaker 1: and talked to us around our journey as part of that,
Speaker 1: and it was really funny how we just randomly bumped
Speaker 1: into her at the shops one day, I think we're
Speaker 1: in bingw and she asked us how we were going,
Speaker 1: and we were like, oh, yeah, we're going really well.
Speaker 1: And she's like, oh, how's everything on the parenting journey
Speaker 1: side of things? And we said, oh, you know, it's
Speaker 1: a bit of a struggle, like it's hard to get
Speaker 1: out there. It's hard to meet people that you're aligned
Speaker 1: with and that you want to be able to go
Speaker 1: on this journey with. And she almost flippantly said to
Speaker 1: us that, oh, I was speaking to my husband about
Speaker 1: that the other day, and I'd be happy to be
Speaker 1: your surrogate. And you think she was joking at first,
Speaker 1: So I think we were kind of taken aback just
Speaker 1: a little. And obviously it was an odd setting to
Speaker 1: have that conversation, I think the first but really fortued us.
Speaker 1: And it was and it was completely out of left field,
Speaker 1: and we kind of joke about it now, just how
Speaker 1: the conversation almost came up. But it's also very i
Speaker 1: would say metaphoric for the relationship dying to make that
Speaker 1: we have with her and had throughout the arrogacy journey
Speaker 1: as well in that it was funny and kind of
Speaker 1: random and chaotic and all of those things that you
Speaker 1: hope it's going to be. And I think that it
Speaker 1: was an interesting start.
Speaker 2: And we've spoken about this before because we have spoken
Speaker 2: to a surrogacy couple before. But the biggest thing about
Speaker 2: Australia is the fact that it is an altruistic ye act.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2: This is something that you cannot pay someone for, and
Speaker 2: in that sense it makes it even more special. And
Speaker 2: the fact that someone is willing to Phoebe in this case,
Speaker 2: put her body health on the line to help you
Speaker 2: and VI's become parents is such a beautiful acknowledgment of
Speaker 2: not only what she thinks of you too as a couple,
Speaker 2: but also just a beautiful acknowledgment of how beautiful a
Speaker 2: person she is. So you've kind of had this initial
Speaker 2: meeting in big w and then the next meeting, So
Speaker 2: how do you start to talk about the nuts and
Speaker 2: bolts of it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And I think that that's one thing I would
Speaker 1: say to anybody who is listening and exploring sarregacy or
Speaker 1: exploring a journey around this. I think the importance of
Speaker 1: communication in any of these types of journeys is so
Speaker 1: paramount when it came to Phoebe. That was something that
Speaker 1: we had really started at the beginning, was just having
Speaker 1: a really open and honest communication and making sure that
Speaker 1: when we did sit down for the first time that
Speaker 1: we were really raw and honest and open about what
Speaker 1: our expectations were, what her expectations were around the process,
Speaker 1: around the journey, you know. And some of that's kind
Speaker 1: of talking about how we can support her throughout the
Speaker 1: pregnancy all the way through to what happens in the
Speaker 1: delivery room. But I think that the really important thing
Speaker 1: for us is that we quickly realized at the beginning
Speaker 1: that we were aligned with a lot. But it also
Speaker 1: doesn't take away from the fact that there's really difficult
Speaker 1: conversations that you actually need to have as part of that.
Speaker 1: You can imagine anyone going through a pregnancy journey, the
Speaker 1: conversations that they would have with their significant other, Me
Speaker 1: and Vince are then having to have those similar conversations
Speaker 1: with who's someone who is our best friend and their
Speaker 1: and their husband.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a relationship between you two, you and Vince Phoebe,
Speaker 2: And then also there's pact just hanging out at the back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Hi, guys.
Speaker 2: I'm still here.
Speaker 1: Who is you know? I think acted as the best
Speaker 1: support person in the world obviously in his position, but
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny. I think by the end of it,
Speaker 1: Phoebe had referenced us all three as her three husbands,
Speaker 1: and I think that's true, quite quite apt for describing
Speaker 1: how the relationship dynamic panned out through our journey, because
Speaker 1: we we were there as part of their family for
Speaker 1: a significant time throughout the pregnancy and had been as
Speaker 1: friends beforehand as well. But exploring our surrogacy relationship and
Speaker 1: it very much does take on its own life form
Speaker 1: pardon the pun, from a friendship and having to navigate
Speaker 1: those two dynamics and those two relationships is something that
Speaker 1: can be quite tricky, but also something that is equally rewarding.
Speaker 1: Not to mention obviously what it meant for us at
Speaker 1: the end of the journey, being a little Archer, we
Speaker 1: had a family member of mine, actors and egg Diner,
Speaker 1: which was really special, and I think that when we
Speaker 1: went through that process, obviously that was only the first
Speaker 1: part of our journey, and as part of that, we
Speaker 1: obviously went through the IVF processes. When we got to
Speaker 1: the part of obviously exploring surrogacy and Phoebe being ready
Speaker 1: to for pregnant. We had a chemical pregnancy in the beginning,
Speaker 1: and then an embryo that didn't take the first time around,
Speaker 1: and I think that was something as well. You're kind
Speaker 1: of staring down the barrel of having only X amount
Speaker 1: of embryos left and pressure. It's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1: It was a scary position to be in. And on
Speaker 1: the third try, like in number three, was when the
Speaker 1: embryo took with Archer, and obviously we were quite tentative
Speaker 1: at first, given the first who hadn't stuck, and we
Speaker 1: kind of just kept waiting, you know, and taking it
Speaker 1: day by day, and we finally got to that twelve
Speaker 1: week mark and went through all the testing and yeah,
Speaker 1: I heard his artbeat for the first time.
Speaker 2: Most amazing thing in the world.
Speaker 1: It was fantastic. I don't think it's ever going to
Speaker 1: be something I will be able to forget. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: mind you this was also in a post COVID world too,
Speaker 1: so yeah, we struggled to find a clinic that would
Speaker 1: enable us, all three of us to actually be in
Speaker 1: the room together as well, and we were very lucky
Speaker 1: there was a clinician who understood the situation and was
Speaker 1: kind enough to let us be part of that experience
Speaker 1: as well. So very happy for that.
Speaker 2: I'd love to know a little bit about the pregnancy itself.
Speaker 2: So obviously you went to the appointments with Phoebe, you
Speaker 2: were kind of in touch every day, Like how is.
Speaker 1: We were fully fledged a part of that family early
Speaker 1: on as well, and I think that, as I said,
Speaker 1: we already had a really close relationship. So Phoebe and
Speaker 1: Pat's kids, you know, they know us, his uncle Matt
Speaker 1: and Uncle Vince. And I think that that because of
Speaker 1: that the relationship and at least from a time aspect
Speaker 1: and how much time we had spent with them, it
Speaker 1: could only really go up. So we were over there
Speaker 1: twice a week for the better part of eight months.
Speaker 1: It had its challenges, I mean, you know, even best friends,
Speaker 1: I think, going from not spending too much time with
Speaker 1: each other to spending that much amount of time with
Speaker 1: each other, I think it was challenging, you know, And
Speaker 1: again we laugh about it now. We were in the
Speaker 1: thick of it. We were living as an extension to
Speaker 1: Pat and Phoebe's lives, and I think that there was
Speaker 1: something that was really beautiful about that as well, in
Speaker 1: that we knew that Phoebe was doing this for us,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned altruistically, and it was something that she
Speaker 1: wanted to do for us because she saw that devotion
Speaker 1: that we would provide our child, and she saw that
Speaker 1: the love that we had to give, and she wanted
Speaker 1: us to be able to experience that and getting to
Speaker 1: be part of her world and part of Pat's world.
Speaker 1: I think throughout that process was something that was really special.
Speaker 2: Did Phoebe have children before?
Speaker 1: Yeah, She's got an older boy and a younger daughter,
Speaker 1: I think so.
Speaker 2: Was this her third pregnanty?
Speaker 1: This was her third pregnancy. Yeah. So originally as part
Speaker 1: of the discussion that we had with Phoebe earlier on
Speaker 1: prior to getting pregnant, her and Pat hadn't had their
Speaker 1: daughter at that point, but it was part of their plan.
Speaker 1: So that was something that we were really respectful of
Speaker 1: and understood that Phoebe was happy to be our saregabt.
Speaker 1: It was something that we needed to wait in the sidelines,
Speaker 1: so to speak, for her to have a daughter first
Speaker 1: before we'd be upsore to speak.
Speaker 2: So the initial conversation that you had between then and
Speaker 2: the time she felt pregnant with Archer. She had a
Speaker 2: daughter in between. Yeah, yeah, so how long between those.
Speaker 1: Two pregnants three and a half years? Four years?
Speaker 2: Okay, so how long was this conversation going for?
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a lot of yeah around that. I think, Okay,
Speaker 1: well then you know what I mean. She was sure, Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was really sure.
Speaker 2: Coming up after the break.
Speaker 1: If I'm going through this for you, you are going
Speaker 1: to watch it. She has this dark sense of humor
Speaker 1: that was kind of enveloped the whole process.
Speaker 2: Let's get into the night after came. Yes, so ju day,
Speaker 2: all of that, like when was he he.
Speaker 1: Was due a few days before he was actually born
Speaker 1: the week before. Just for context, Phoebe was experiencing Braxton Hicks,
Speaker 1: which is not a nice thing to watch the loon
Speaker 1: go through. And I think she had been experiencing Braxton Hicks,
Speaker 1: and I think for context as well, this was the
Speaker 1: first time that she had needed to monitor labor and
Speaker 1: naturally at home. So her first two pregnancies were induced,
Speaker 1: so this was the first time that she actually had
Speaker 1: to kind of sit at home and wait for the
Speaker 1: telltale signs. In theory of what labour feels like. So
Speaker 1: she was going through that process and obviously quite highly
Speaker 1: alert to any kind of change in her body and
Speaker 1: where she was at I suppose in relation to actually
Speaker 1: about the dah of birth right.
Speaker 2: And it is one of those things when you're in labor,
Speaker 2: it's like is this is it?
Speaker 3: Not it?
Speaker 2: Also then you've got the added challenge of when do
Speaker 2: I tell Matt and Vin yes?
Speaker 1: And I think that there was a dynamic that definitely
Speaker 1: played into it. So yeah, So she'd been experiencing Braxton
Speaker 1: Hicks the week prior, and I had visited the doctor
Speaker 1: and we'd had made a decision to obviously go along
Speaker 1: to every appointment that we could, and that she was
Speaker 1: comfortable to have us go along too. So we had
Speaker 1: had an appointment with the doctor I think on the
Speaker 1: friday after Phoebe had been experiencing Braxton Hicks and things
Speaker 1: were looking like they were coming to the end and
Speaker 1: Archer was going to be arriving soon. And in true fashion,
Speaker 1: the doctor when we went and spoke to him and
Speaker 1: the last appointment on the friday, was like, well, it
Speaker 1: looks like something's going to happen over the weekend, but
Speaker 1: unfortunately I'm on holidays.
Speaker 2: Why did have holidays?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and I think you know, Phoebe panicked clearly.
Speaker 1: She was like, well, that's not happening. I am not
Speaker 1: giving birth over the weekend. We are waiting until next week.
Speaker 1: I'd like to book in Wednesday. That's when it's happening,
Speaker 1: you know. And I think we were quietly assuming that
Speaker 1: it was going to happen over the weekend and obviously
Speaker 1: trying to support Phoebe as best we could in that
Speaker 1: scenario because we know that it was something that was
Speaker 1: adding undue stress to the situation. But I think myself
Speaker 1: in said also Pat were quite of the mind that, well,
Speaker 1: if it's going to happen, it's going to happen.
Speaker 2: And so did the baby come on the weekend?
Speaker 1: Of course, the baby came on the weekend.
Speaker 2: Well, that was the Sunday.
Speaker 1: It was this Sunday. On the Saturday. We had a
Speaker 1: bit of a false start. So Phoebe had called us
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night the day before and
Speaker 1: asked us to come over to their house because obviously
Speaker 1: they've got their kids there, and had told us that
Speaker 1: she just needed to go to the hospital. She felt
Speaker 1: like she was having labor pains and she put it
Speaker 1: to go and get it checked out, so we went over.
Speaker 1: She went to the hospital. They stayed there for a
Speaker 1: few hours, and they basically told her that it looks
Speaker 1: like she has started the beginning part of labor but
Speaker 1: hadn't dilated it at all I think at that point,
Speaker 1: or or had only just started to dilate. So she
Speaker 1: was sent home. And you know, we were obviously close
Speaker 1: by on the Sunday and had expected things to ramp
Speaker 1: up slowly, but obviously at that time the nurses had
Speaker 1: also said that you know, this could be days, doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily mean that it's going to be.
Speaker 2: But also third baby, there's generally it's a faster lay.
Speaker 2: But they say that, yeah, I generally can be a
Speaker 2: faster laybor. So okay, she's their final trip to the hospital.
Speaker 2: You and Vincent running in the door.
Speaker 1: We are yep, so Phoebe's obviously ahead of us. She's
Speaker 1: got into the hospital. We got the call from Pat
Speaker 1: basically saying you need to get the hospital now. Phoebe's
Speaker 1: mum's coming over. She's taking the kids and then you
Speaker 1: guys need to get to the hospital straight away.
Speaker 2: So you were looking after the kids.
Speaker 1: We were looking after the kids at this point. Still,
Speaker 1: you know, obviously we sped as fast as we could
Speaker 1: on the highway to get to the hospital, and you know,
Speaker 1: we're obviously rushing up to get to the door to
Speaker 1: a private hospital, and the maternity suite at that time
Speaker 1: was closed to the public, so we're you know, we
Speaker 1: obviously we press the button, banging on the door, and
Speaker 1: the security guard answered and he goes, who are you
Speaker 1: here to see and it is like, we need to
Speaker 1: go up to the delivery suite. This guy was probably
Speaker 1: the slowest walker I've ever seen in my life coming
Speaker 1: up to the doorway and where they're in utter panic.
Speaker 1: And he opens the door and he's like, there's no
Speaker 1: visitors right now, and we're like, what are you talking
Speaker 1: And he goes, there's no visitors. You need to come
Speaker 1: back tomorrow. And we start to get into this argument
Speaker 1: about the fact that we're parents and he's not really
Speaker 1: understanding the situation. And obviously there's two guys who have
Speaker 1: rocked up at one o'clock in the morning to a
Speaker 1: maternity suite and begging to be let in. You know,
Speaker 1: we kind of ended up just rushing past him and
Speaker 1: we're like, where the fathers like at the top of
Speaker 1: our lungs, and I think he just was a bit
Speaker 1: confused about the whole dynamics and socks. I know, I
Speaker 1: feel a bit bad for him now kind of thinking back,
Speaker 1: but obviously he didn't know what was going on, and
Speaker 1: it was just a bit of a funny.
Speaker 2: Story, but it's a great story.
Speaker 1: So we ran into the lift, went up the lift
Speaker 1: and ushered basically straight into the room where Phoebe was
Speaker 1: and she was in the middle of getting her epidural,
Speaker 1: and I think between entering the room and Archer being born,
Speaker 1: I think there was probably around fifteen twenty minutes. Oh
Speaker 1: that is, we were cutting it very fine in getting
Speaker 1: there in time.
Speaker 2: But she only had a half working epidural.
Speaker 1: Yeah she did, so I think, so she's in agaby.
Speaker 1: Phoebe was in quite a lot of pain when we
Speaker 1: got there. The epidural was only working in half side,
Speaker 1: in half of her body.
Speaker 2: I had that with my son as well, and a
Speaker 2: few days prior to Phoebe, so Phobe, I feel your.
Speaker 1: Way, and I think she knew that she had actually
Speaker 1: burnt through the epidural quite early in her second pregnancy,
Speaker 1: so it was something that she was prepared for going in,
Speaker 1: and she was quite adamant about wanting to make sure
Speaker 1: that the epidural worked and that it was the right dosage,
Speaker 1: and to have it only work through half of her body.
Speaker 1: It was it was horrible to watch phobe a redhead.
Speaker 1: Yeah she is, Yeah, there you go. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Do you know why that is? Yeah? Anesthesia is you
Speaker 2: need a higher dose for redheads, they need more anesthesia.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how, I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's something it's a genetic it's something about the genetics
Speaker 2: that for some reason, redheads require a higher dose of anesthesia.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So yeah. We entered the room and Phoebe was in
Speaker 1: the process of getting her epidural, and I think it
Speaker 1: was the second time they actually had tried to insert
Speaker 1: the epidural to make sure that it was working. And
Speaker 1: it was quite chaotic in the sense that she was
Speaker 1: trying to test I suppose you know how they test
Speaker 1: the waters in seeing whether or not it actually is
Speaker 1: working by I think seeing if your feet are actually
Speaker 1: you can feel movement on your feet, And she kept
Speaker 1: saying over and over again that she could still feel
Speaker 1: the right side of her foot and clear the epertura
Speaker 1: wasn't working, and I think what happened was that it
Speaker 1: escalated pretty quickly in that sense. So while she was
Speaker 1: going through the process of trying to get the eperitural fixed,
Speaker 1: she had obviously been dilating and had been continuing to
Speaker 1: dilate as well, and Archer was just ready ready, and
Speaker 1: there was this really intense moment I'll never forget it
Speaker 1: where the midwife wi we had was just this angel
Speaker 1: sent from Heaven. Midwives out there, you're amazing people. Really,
Speaker 1: we just had this amazing woman who the doctor hadn't
Speaker 1: shown up yet, and the midwife was getting the stirrups ready,
Speaker 1: and it was looking at the point where the midwife
Speaker 1: was actually going to deliver Archer, and there was this
Speaker 1: moment where she had to lock eyes with Phoebe and
Speaker 1: basically say to Phoebe that it's too late for the
Speaker 1: epidural to be fixed. The baby's coming now and you're
Speaker 1: going to have to do this. And the panic that
Speaker 1: I saw in Phoebe's face was life altering. Like I
Speaker 1: think it was a culmination of love and guilt and
Speaker 1: the hope and fear to see a friend go through that,
Speaker 1: not at the least for you, you know, is something I'm
Speaker 1: never going to forget. And they had locked eyes and
Speaker 1: she said I remember her saying to the midwife, She's like,
Speaker 1: I can't do this, and the midwife's going, yes, you can,
Speaker 1: you can do this. And you know, I think there
Speaker 1: was just this surge of grit and determination and power
Speaker 1: that if no one has been in a delivery suite
Speaker 1: and seen that, I don't think could articulate. And from
Speaker 1: that moment, in classic fashion, the doctor just swans in.
Speaker 1: The midwife moves out of the way, and the doctor's like, well,
Speaker 1: come on, everybody, let's have a baby, and Phoebe's like,
Speaker 1: get away from me. Like it was just this moment
Speaker 1: of kind of like odd humor and the kind of
Speaker 1: a change in the environment, and you know, the midwife
Speaker 1: was there with her side by side, and you know,
Speaker 1: the doctor obviously kind of got into a position and
Speaker 1: I think through four or five contractions, Archer was delivered
Speaker 1: within that time period.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that must have been really difficult for you and
Speaker 2: Vince and Pat as well. Watching someone you love go
Speaker 2: through pain, is you feel very powerless because all you
Speaker 2: want to do is take their pain away. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: sure you spoke about this before, but that is obviously
Speaker 2: a vulnerable moment for Phoebe. How did you navigate that?
Speaker 1: I think the communication we had very early on was
Speaker 1: important to that conversation. We had a rough birth plan,
Speaker 1: and I think that that was something that we given
Speaker 1: the added level of complexity of adding another two people
Speaker 1: into the situation, it was important that we did discuss
Speaker 1: what was possible given the circumstances, and also what Phoebe
Speaker 1: was comfortable with. And from the beginning she always jokingly
Speaker 1: said that if I'm going through this for you, you
Speaker 1: are going to watch it. And she has this dark
Speaker 1: sense of humor that was kind of enveloped the whole process,
Speaker 1: and I think that was what it made it so special.
Speaker 1: And you know, She's like, if I'm going to be
Speaker 1: in pain, you were right there with me, and I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have had it any other way. I think where
Speaker 1: we were in the actual delivery suite was I was
Speaker 1: right next to Phoebe holding her other hand, with her
Speaker 1: husband on the other side coming up. We were obviously
Speaker 1: kind of just standing there, shocked, going what just happened.
Speaker 1: Phoebe blessed us soul was like, oh my god, is
Speaker 1: pad okay? It's pad okay? And in the meantime, we're
Speaker 1: obviously checking on Archer and Phoebe. I'm like, are you
Speaker 1: guys okay, you guys okay. It was this, you know,
Speaker 1: six foot man just fell onto his wife that had
Speaker 1: just given birth. So Archer comes out, Archer does come out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone's crying.
Speaker 1: Of course, everyone is crying.
Speaker 2: Archer goes onto Phoebe's chest as I yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when Archer was delivered, he went onto Phoebe's chess.
Speaker 1: When he was on Phoebe's chest, obviously she had the
Speaker 1: opportunity to say hello and kind of also witness I
Speaker 1: think her achievement in being able to get to this
Speaker 1: final stage. And obviously as part of that, Phoebe handed
Speaker 1: Archer over to.
Speaker 2: Us and mean, Vince did you and Vince cut the cord.
Speaker 1: We both got to cut the cord actually, which was
Speaker 1: a really special moment. I think we kind of snipped
Speaker 1: it and then it was a little bit left and
Speaker 1: we had like snippet again and it was all a
Speaker 1: bit weird and in a bit funny.
Speaker 2: But it's like a really spongy yeah it is.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like squid to put a fine point
Speaker 1: on it, it's that kind of texture, which is a
Speaker 1: bit odd.
Speaker 2: Oh, but that's actually a very very special moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Phoebe passed Archer over to me and Vince and
Speaker 1: we had the opportunity to just hold him for the
Speaker 1: first time. And I think that it's such a beautiful
Speaker 1: moment that is filled with so much raw emotion, and
Speaker 1: I find it quite hard to articulate in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways, because you you just have this overwhelming surge
Speaker 1: of love and it feels like love in the most
Speaker 1: purest form. And I think I just remember looking down
Speaker 1: on him for the first time and looking at Vince,
Speaker 1: and I think that there was such a you could
Speaker 1: hear a pin drop in the room, and it was
Speaker 1: probably so loud and so many other things going on,
Speaker 1: but from our point of view, you could hear a
Speaker 1: pin drop. And to be able to just kind of
Speaker 1: look at him for the first time and imagine what
Speaker 1: our lives are going to be from that moment onwards
Speaker 1: is so special. And I still find it so amazing
Speaker 1: that in an instant you have someone that you would
Speaker 1: lay your life down for.
Speaker 2: Where was Pat once Archer was born?
Speaker 1: So Pat, as I said earlier, he was obviously standing
Speaker 1: next to Phoebe on the other side, and there was
Speaker 1: this really beautiful moment where we had cuddled Archer for
Speaker 1: a little bit and passed him over to Phoebe, and
Speaker 1: a part of that process, obviously, was she was passing
Speaker 1: the placenta was there on the side of her, and
Speaker 1: I think we were all kind of just in this
Speaker 1: bubble of love, which was really beautiful. Pat was striking
Speaker 1: Phoebe's hair and kind of, you know, saying she did
Speaker 1: an amazing job. And there was this moment I remember
Speaker 1: where he leant over in what I thought was him
Speaker 1: giving her a kiss on the forehead, but something just
Speaker 1: seemed a bit off, and in this moment that just
Speaker 1: quickly took a turn. He lurched and kind of fell
Speaker 1: over onto Phoebe a Archer and Phoebe at the time
Speaker 1: found this untapped well of strength and pushed her husband
Speaker 1: backwards onto a medical tray that was standing in the corner,
Speaker 1: and you know, that went clanging and he fell on
Speaker 1: the floor, and we were obviously kind of just standing
Speaker 1: there shocked, going what just happened. Phoebe, you know, bless
Speaker 1: us soul was like, oh my god, it's Pad, Okay,
Speaker 1: it's Pad. Okay, and in the meantime, we're obviously checking
Speaker 1: on Archer and Phoebe. I'm like, are you guys okay,
Speaker 1: you guys okay. It was this, you know, six foot
Speaker 1: man just fell onto his wife, just given birth and
Speaker 1: our baby boys in her arms as well, and he's
Speaker 1: you know, kind of fell on top of him, you know,
Speaker 1: and it was just funny because the midwives and the doctors,
Speaker 1: they just it was business as usual. They're kind of
Speaker 1: rumming to around, got him a pillow, made sure that
Speaker 1: she was okay, and then there was just this moment where,
Speaker 1: you know, obviously I was kind of the one tending
Speaker 1: to Phoebe at that point because Archer was being given
Speaker 1: over to Vince Pats on the ground, and this midwife
Speaker 1: just grabs my hand and goes he hold this, and
Speaker 1: you know, all of a sudden, I find myself with
Speaker 1: my hand in between my best friend's legs holding up
Speaker 1: medical gauze, and I just remember looking at her and going,
Speaker 1: I don't think our friendship can get much more close
Speaker 1: than this.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: And it's something that we now both just absolutely laugh at,
Speaker 1: but you know, it just wow. We were both in
Speaker 1: the moment and we.
Speaker 2: Just were like, that's a good friend.
Speaker 1: It's a good friend.
Speaker 2: Both of you are very good friends to each other.
Speaker 1: You can't come back from that.
Speaker 2: I have said to a lot of people that becoming
Speaker 2: a parent is the single most transformative life change that
Speaker 2: you will have. And one of the biggest things I
Speaker 2: always think about is up until that point, everything in
Speaker 2: your life, every milestone in your life is about you.
Speaker 2: After you're parent, the milestones become your child's. The first bath,
Speaker 2: the first cuddle, the first kiss, the first illness, first walk,
Speaker 2: the first walk, first words. It's all about them. And
Speaker 2: the beauty in that is the pride that you feel
Speaker 2: as a parent, in seeing that it's really special taking
Speaker 2: Archer home, and you know that relationship with Phoebe after
Speaker 2: bringing Archer home, obviously she's going to be a part
Speaker 2: of your life and Archer's life forever. What does he called.
Speaker 1: Phoebe Honey, Phoebe, Honey, Phoebe, which you know, I think
Speaker 1: was always going to be the case regardless, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes as special line Phoebe in the context of obviously
Speaker 1: kind of talking about his story and how he came
Speaker 1: into the world. But I think that that was something
Speaker 1: that was really important to us is to be able
Speaker 1: to have someone like Phoebe be a part of this
Speaker 1: journey and know that she would always be a part
Speaker 1: of Archer's life and that she would always be a
Speaker 1: part of his journey as well. And after obviously after
Speaker 1: the birth, we you know, she was over it kind
Speaker 1: of reversed, it flipped a little bit. She was over
Speaker 1: our house every other day for the first few weeks.
Speaker 1: And she's a mom of two, works full time. You know,
Speaker 1: we get to see her as often as we can
Speaker 1: as well, but we really have the opportunity when we
Speaker 1: do see each other to look back on the journey
Speaker 1: that we went through and reflect on it with so
Speaker 1: much love for each other, but also so much laughter
Speaker 1: because there were so many funny moments along the way.
Speaker 2: And Archer is too now almost.
Speaker 1: Almost too and any parent, like time, takes on its
Speaker 1: own life. Or actually, I think when you become a parent,
Speaker 1: because as you pointed out, everything is based on minelestones
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, they're too and you know,
Speaker 1: you're getting slapped in the face because you didn't give
Speaker 1: them a lolly for breakfast, and I think.
Speaker 2: It's oh, I got I had that argument this morning
Speaker 2: where you.
Speaker 1: Had an icy whole argument all more, and it's like
Speaker 1: using gentle hands and we're not having a nice block
Speaker 1: for breakfast. But where does time go? It just slips
Speaker 1: away from you. And I think it's only something you
Speaker 1: can grasp once you've become a parent. I think that
Speaker 1: you always hear that it's like, oh, kids grabs that quickly,
Speaker 1: or time goes so quickly, But when you're actually experiencing
Speaker 1: that firsthand, I think is something that you only really understand.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Matt, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Here at Diary of a Birth, we want to answer
Speaker 2: all your burning medical questions, and we've brought on IVF
Speaker 2: specialist and obstetrician, doctor Bromwin Devine. I want to know,
Speaker 2: is the IVF process any different in a surrogacy journey.
Speaker 3: So certainly there's a lot more screening beforehand and a
Speaker 3: lot of psychological counseling that has to take place beforehand,
Speaker 3: have quite a lot of meetings with the commissioning couple,
Speaker 3: the people who are intending to be parents, or the
Speaker 3: intended parents we sometimes call them, and a meeting with
Speaker 3: the surrogate and the surrogate's partner, if the surrogate has
Speaker 3: a partner, and then there may be a separate meeting
Speaker 3: with the egg donor if there's a separate egg donor,
Speaker 3: and then those people have to also all seek legal
Speaker 3: advice and have a legal contract drawn up. They have
Speaker 3: to have lots and lots of screening done, and they
Speaker 3: have to see a psychologist for quite exhaustive counseling, and
Speaker 3: so much more than the counseling we normally do for
Speaker 3: say a couple who are looking to use donor sperm
Speaker 3: or something like that. And then it needs to be
Speaker 3: very very clear that the surrogacy process is altruistic. Even
Speaker 3: though surrogacy has got itself a bad name and people
Speaker 3: get really concerned that it's exploitative. In a setting where
Speaker 3: you have someone who has altruistically or with open arms
Speaker 3: embraced the idea of being a surrogate for someone who's
Speaker 3: very dear to them, it can be a wonderful, wonderful
Speaker 3: experience to be involved with.
Speaker 2: I'm also curious what is an umbilical cord made of.
Speaker 3: It's comprised of usually three vessels, two arteries, and a vein,
Speaker 3: and they provide the oxygen and nutrients to the baby
Speaker 3: and also remove the waste from the baby and send
Speaker 3: those back to the mum for the mum's body to
Speaker 3: get rid of. So, because they are blood vessels and
Speaker 3: they're coursing in the uterus in the fluid, the baby
Speaker 3: could easily squish those and reduce blood flow or compromise
Speaker 3: blood flow to the baby. And so they've got to
Speaker 3: be surrounded by a funny little substance which is called
Speaker 3: Wharton's jelly, which is a funny name, but Wharton's jelly
Speaker 3: is like a gelatinous substance that really protects those vessels
Speaker 3: and then stops the baby for all intents and purposes
Speaker 3: squishing on those vessels and then reducing blood flow. So
Speaker 3: the cord itself consists of a membrane, the same sort
Speaker 3: of membrane that is within the placenta, the membrane, the
Speaker 3: three blood vessels, usually three, sometimes the two, and then
Speaker 3: this funny Wharton's jelly, which is why when you cut it,
Speaker 3: at the time that you know it's time to cut
Speaker 3: the cord, it feels so grisly or spongy.
Speaker 2: Diary of a Birth was hosted by me Cassenelu Kitch
Speaker 2: with expert input from doctor Bronwin Devine. This episode was
Speaker 2: produced by Tom Lyon and myself Cassena lu Kit, with
Speaker 2: audio production by Scott Stronach