Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: mom and Mia out loud. What women are actually talking
Speaker 2: about on Wednesday, the eleventh of December. I'm Holly Wainwright,
Speaker 2: I'm MEA Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens and on the
Speaker 2: show today explaining the disturbing jay Z allegations that ended
Speaker 2: up all over the red carpet of a massive new
Speaker 2: Hollywood movie this week. Also, can You Copyright Your Vibe?
Speaker 2: And the children's book I read to my kids every
Speaker 2: night for years has just been unmasked as the primary
Speaker 2: reason for generation anxious. Time to throw rainbow fish back, friends,
Speaker 2: but first mea Friedman.
Speaker 1: In case you missed it, Get the ice cream ready,
Speaker 1: warm up the hot water bottle. Today is the day
Speaker 1: couples are most likely to break up.
Speaker 2: Why. I don't know.
Speaker 1: The eleventh of December is the most common day of
Speaker 1: the year for couples to split, and the date was
Speaker 1: worked out from researchers who analyzed Facebook data.
Speaker 3: Ah, so you go from in a couple to single?
Speaker 2: Correct?
Speaker 1: And the December period more broadly is known as breakup season.
Speaker 1: So even if you manage to get through today, don't
Speaker 1: count your chickens, because it could still happen.
Speaker 3: Well, I was going to say, the day is young.
Speaker 3: As we're recording this, there is still half a day
Speaker 3: for us to beat DOMP.
Speaker 2: And the thing could happen when I get home tonight.
Speaker 1: Psychotherapist and relationship expert Lyssi Abraham's told MoMA Mia that
Speaker 1: this time period can lead to increased tension because of
Speaker 1: all the stress that comes along with it. But we
Speaker 1: had a few other reasons that we thought about. Maybe
Speaker 1: you don't want to buy gifts because he lives.
Speaker 3: Yes. I also I remember this time being with someone
Speaker 3: and thinking I don't want him to come to my
Speaker 3: family Christmas. And if you're in a relationship with someone,
Speaker 3: they kind of think they're coming, and it's probably a
Speaker 3: red flag when you go I'm embarrassed to introduce you
Speaker 3: to my family.
Speaker 1: Yes, And other people are like, I can't do one
Speaker 1: more Christmas with her family? Yeah, and you go in.
Speaker 3: It's a time of change, I suppose, because I think
Speaker 3: we're all beginning to imagine the new year and who
Speaker 3: we want to be, and some changes we want to
Speaker 3: make and you don't want to go into the new
Speaker 3: year with the person you.
Speaker 1: Want to relaunch in the new year if you've got
Speaker 1: a bit of ick.
Speaker 3: I also think the festive season is quite social, so
Speaker 3: if you want to put yourself back on the market,
Speaker 3: you don't want to miss out on December mingling.
Speaker 2: No New Year's Eve, all those things you want to
Speaker 2: because if you broke up today, it's still a good
Speaker 2: three weeks before New Year's Eve, so it would be
Speaker 2: socially acceptable for you to be flirting. Hear us off
Speaker 2: yew Year's Eve party, exactly right.
Speaker 1: The good news is that breakups on Christmas Day drop
Speaker 1: super dramatically because I guess no one wants to be
Speaker 1: that dick.
Speaker 2: Who's got time for that. Jay Z has won twenty
Speaker 2: four Grammys, he sold one hundred and forty million records,
Speaker 2: He was the first hip hop billionaire, now worth a
Speaker 2: reported two point five billion US dollars, and of course
Speaker 2: he's mister Beyonce Knowles. And now he is also a
Speaker 2: man who has been accused of child rape in the
Speaker 2: most controversial of circumstances. If you've seen those headlines, here's
Speaker 2: a quick explainer before we go into how all this
Speaker 2: disturbing mess ended up on the red carpet of the
Speaker 2: latest Lion King movie. Jay Z's real name is Sean Carter,
Speaker 2: and here's long time mates with another Sean Sean Coombs,
Speaker 2: otherwise known as p Diddy, who is currently in prison
Speaker 2: in Brooklyn denied bail. He keeps offering fifty million dollars
Speaker 2: bail to get out while he awaits trial. He's on
Speaker 2: criminal charges of sex trafficking, racketeering, and transportation to engage
Speaker 2: in prostitution. That court case is going to start in
Speaker 2: May next year, and it's going to be huge and harrowing.
Speaker 2: At the same time, more than one hundred and twenty
Speaker 2: cases of sexual misconduct and assault involving Diddy are being
Speaker 2: filed through civil court, mostly through one lawyer, a guy
Speaker 2: named Tony Busby, who we will get to in a minute.
Speaker 2: As we discussed a few weeks ago, charges brought through
Speaker 2: civil court bear a lower burden of proof than criminal
Speaker 2: cannot carry a jail term, and are often settled with
Speaker 2: a financial payout. Many of the cases around Diddy center
Speaker 2: around the so called free coughs that he held for decades,
Speaker 2: basically sex parties that involved drugs, sex workers being paid
Speaker 2: to perform, and allegedly the abuse of many of the
Speaker 2: women in attendance. But what happened this week is that
Speaker 2: for the first time, one of those civil claims named
Speaker 2: jay Z. An unnamed woman says that jay Z and
Speaker 2: Coombs drugged and raped her when she was thirteen years
Speaker 2: old and at an after party following the two thousand VMAs.
Speaker 2: The case also alleges that a famous woman named in
Speaker 2: the case as Celebrity B watched the assault take place. Now,
Speaker 2: this particular accusation isn't new. It was filed in October,
Speaker 2: but at the time it only named Diddy and then
Speaker 2: referred to Celebrity A and Celebrity B as having also
Speaker 2: been in the room. But on Monday, Celebrity A was
Speaker 2: named as jay Z. Now it's not a surprise that
Speaker 2: at some point Carter was going to be implicated in
Speaker 2: the Kumb's case. The pair have been friends for decades,
Speaker 2: have been in business together, and Carter was a fixture
Speaker 2: at many of Kuhm's parties. And he was clearly prepared
Speaker 2: because he came out swinging immediately, saying that he'd been
Speaker 2: blackmailed by an unscrupulous lawyer who had demanded money, or
Speaker 2: he would name that Jay was celebrity.
Speaker 1: A That statement was quite extraordinary, wasn't it?
Speaker 2: It was. It's long and angry, and it says, among
Speaker 2: other things, my lawyer received a blackmail attempt called a
Speaker 2: demand letter from a lawyer. He puts lawyer in inverted
Speaker 2: commas named Tony Busby. What he had calculated was the
Speaker 2: nature of these allegations and the public scrutiny would make
Speaker 2: me want to settle, No, sir, it had the opposite effect,
Speaker 2: exclamation mark. It made me want to expose you for
Speaker 2: the fraud you are in a very public fashion. So no,
Speaker 2: I will not give you one redpenny. These allegations are
Speaker 2: so heenous in nature that I am iplaw you to
Speaker 2: file a criminal complaint, not a civil one. Whomever would
Speaker 2: commit such a crime against a minor should be locked away.
Speaker 2: Would you not agree these alleged victims would deserve real
Speaker 2: justice if that were the case.
Speaker 1: What did you guys think of this statement?
Speaker 3: I had never seen a celebrity denial like this. This
Speaker 3: was different in a lot of ways. It was such
Speaker 3: a strong denial firstly, but the other thing is that
Speaker 3: not only did it discredit the lawsuit, but it went
Speaker 3: really hard on the lawyer, which you don't often see.
Speaker 3: And there's a reason that he took aim at Buzzby,
Speaker 3: and the reason is that he is known as having
Speaker 3: a really aggressive way of forcing settlements and that can
Speaker 3: be to go to the person privately and reveal and
Speaker 3: he's admitted this, try and put a whole lot of
Speaker 3: embarrassing things out there and kind of go if you
Speaker 3: don't set or we're going to make this public. He
Speaker 3: is really interested in high profile cases. He was involved
Speaker 3: in the Travis Scott Astro world. I think it was
Speaker 3: like a class action suit. Remember that there was a
Speaker 3: concert and there was a crowd surge and members of diect.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is this something that I have a bit of
Speaker 1: a This is tricky and again many things can be
Speaker 1: true at once, which adds to the complexity of this.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean his victims aren't real, and it doesn't
Speaker 1: mean what happened didn't happen. And yes, also jay Z
Speaker 1: is entitled to the presumption of innocence until he's found
Speaker 1: guilty in a court. All of those things are true,
Speaker 1: and mediation is usually what's recommended before you go to court.
Speaker 3: I think it's worth noting though, that this is not
Speaker 3: a Gloria Alred. There are cases where it's a really
Speaker 3: respected lawyer who fights for you know, women's rights, victims rights,
Speaker 3: And again, you're absolutely right. But what's interesting about this
Speaker 3: lawyer is even I was looking at him, he's got
Speaker 3: quite a high profile. He has political aspirations, and on
Speaker 3: his Instagram profile he has like, I've won ten billion
Speaker 3: dollars in damages. So what jay Z is trying to
Speaker 3: say here about money and a civil case as opposed
Speaker 3: to the federal charges that are against Diddy is an
Speaker 3: interesting one. Buzzby has also set up a one eight
Speaker 3: hundred number for people who are accusing Diddy or anyone
Speaker 3: else of particular crimes.
Speaker 2: So they're soliciting for women to come forward, and there
Speaker 2: is some criticism, And now there's argubardi between jay Z's
Speaker 2: high profile lawyer who just was representing Alec Baldwin and
Speaker 2: has represented Elon mask. There's Argubardie now of him saying
Speaker 2: you're literally enticing these women to lie for money. But
Speaker 2: don't you think it's also as Mia says, in fact,
Speaker 2: that the two things can be true. There's the truth
Speaker 2: for money exactly, because this might also be the victims
Speaker 2: of Diddy over many years. This might be their only
Speaker 2: chance to get anything that looks like some kind of
Speaker 2: justice because it's not all going to go through legal court.
Speaker 2: And I mean did he is facing undoubtedly jail time,
Speaker 2: but all of these individual women, the civil route might
Speaker 2: be their only way to get something like.
Speaker 3: And the fact that there are so many women we've
Speaker 3: seen even with Bill Cosby, Like there's power in that
Speaker 3: solidarity with a lot of women coming together and telling
Speaker 3: the same story.
Speaker 1: And also how class actions work.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like let's not forget as you were saying,
Speaker 3: Holly jay Z is worth two point five billion dollars,
Speaker 3: how do you not take a man like that down?
Speaker 3: But how do you even accuse a man like that
Speaker 3: without the power of someone like this lawyer. So a
Speaker 3: lot of people are kind of going into his backstory
Speaker 3: and looking at some questionable things. And so I understand
Speaker 3: why that was part of the pr strategy to be like,
Speaker 3: not only am I saying I didn't do it, Not
Speaker 3: only am I saying I'm thinking of all victims. But
Speaker 3: if this were true, then why wouldn't you go for
Speaker 3: something bigger than just money? But it's also saying this
Speaker 3: lawyer cannot be trusted.
Speaker 1: There are two ways of looking at that statement that
Speaker 1: Jay Z released, that was very long, that was clearly
Speaker 1: not vetted by PR people because it was full of
Speaker 1: exclamation marks. It did a couple of things. It centered
Speaker 1: his denial, like almost above the accusation, because it meant
Speaker 1: that his denial had to be pretty much published in full.
Speaker 1: He got to say a lot of things in that denial,
Speaker 1: and he got to it could be said, he got
Speaker 1: to smear the lawyer. He got to make accusations of
Speaker 1: his own against the lawyer, and in a lot of
Speaker 1: the coverage, as I've read, a lot of media put
Speaker 1: that before the actual charges. So it really did center
Speaker 1: his defense. And there's something called DAVO, which is a
Speaker 1: tactic that's often used by a perpetrator or an alleged perpetrator.
Speaker 1: It stands for deny, attack, reverse victim offender. You deny
Speaker 1: that you did it, you attack someone. If you can't
Speaker 1: attack the victim, you attack the lawyer, and you reverse,
Speaker 1: so you make it seem like you're the victim. So, yes,
Speaker 1: I've been attacked. He's coming after me because I've got money.
Speaker 1: This is a blackmail attempt, and suddenly the narrative is
Speaker 1: very different. That's what you would do if it was true,
Speaker 1: and that's what you would also do if it was
Speaker 1: not true.
Speaker 3: Because the thing that I first saw was that jay
Speaker 3: Z had been accused, and that is enormous, enormous news.
Speaker 3: He is one of the most powerful, richest men in America,
Speaker 3: Like that is really really big. But I think that
Speaker 3: the reason why this has been such a big deal
Speaker 3: is because he had actually sued prior to all of
Speaker 3: this coming out, So that had been happening privately.
Speaker 1: Do you mean jay Z had tried to yes, Sue, Yes.
Speaker 3: So that had been happening under the name John Doe. Yes,
Speaker 3: that had been happening behind the scenes. Which brings us
Speaker 3: to Celebrity B. So we knew that there was another celebrity.
Speaker 1: Who is named Celebrity B exactly.
Speaker 3: Which is that there was a woman in the room
Speaker 3: and that has been a point of enormous discussion and
Speaker 3: speculation about who that might be because it's which is awful,
Speaker 3: Which is awful, but I also get it because this
Speaker 3: is to me, this is like a Jeffrey Epstein level
Speaker 3: lifting the lid on this subculture it's like we assume
Speaker 3: the worst of celebrities anyway. These are the most powerful
Speaker 3: people in the world, and the accusations I'm so boring.
Speaker 1: I don't think we assume the worst of all celebrities.
Speaker 1: I don't. But I think if you've been best friends
Speaker 1: with p Diddy for thirty years, when these allegations have
Speaker 1: been widely known within the industry for a really long time,
Speaker 1: and now when you see what the criminal charges are
Speaker 1: against Diddy over decades, and you see what we all
Speaker 1: saw with that footage of him beating up his ex
Speaker 1: girlfriend Cassie, you would have to say there are some
Speaker 1: doubts cast over how much you did or didn't know
Speaker 1: one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: The thing that troubles me about the celebrity b obsession
Speaker 2: and I've heard all the same rumors that everyone listening
Speaker 2: to this I'm sure has heard, and that been circulating
Speaker 2: around the internet, around the office about who that is
Speaker 2: and why that might be and blah blah blah. Is
Speaker 2: that beyond the fact that jay Z, as you say,
Speaker 2: one of the richest most powerful men in America in
Speaker 2: pop culture currency, The fact that he's married to Beyonce
Speaker 2: is as interesting as anything else right. We joke that
Speaker 2: on out loud we like to refer to male celebrities,
Speaker 2: but which women they're married to. So in my mind,
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I can't think of any of
Speaker 2: his songs. Well I can because I'll go into that later.
Speaker 2: But he's also missed a Beyonce right and that. So
Speaker 2: this also spins into the celebrity fallout from this, which
Speaker 2: was then immediately on display on this red carpet the
Speaker 2: following day. Because timing is everything, the story got released
Speaker 2: on Monday our time, Sunday their time, and immediately there
Speaker 2: was a whuha because Tina Noles, Beyonce's mum, very famous mum,
Speaker 2: appeared to like a post from a news outlet that
Speaker 2: reported it. So everyone was like, whoa, can we pause
Speaker 2: on that?
Speaker 3: What do we think happened? Because she's come out and
Speaker 3: said she was hacked?
Speaker 1: She and she.
Speaker 2: Immediately said she was hacked, which is a modern classic.
Speaker 2: That's what you do. You like a post by mistake,
Speaker 2: and then you say it wasn't me, I was hacked.
Speaker 3: Because everyone gets hacked just so that someone can like
Speaker 3: random posts.
Speaker 2: But you think it might be more of a boomer issue.
Speaker 3: I do, because at first I went, oh, my goodness,
Speaker 3: this makes him look guilty. This looks like Beyonce's mother
Speaker 3: has been sitting on this for ages, and she's like,
Speaker 3: finally he's been outed. And then I learned a little
Speaker 3: bit about our friend Tina, she's seventy and some of
Speaker 3: her social media behavior, and I went, oh, no, if
Speaker 3: this were my mum, she would absolutely accidentally like this post.
Speaker 3: Not accidentally, she would like it because she thinks it
Speaker 3: means that she's telling people she's seen it. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: it's sort of buying it off as checks I've seen this,
Speaker 3: or I'm sending jay Z love or whoever.
Speaker 1: So to complicate things, and I agreed, is a modern classic.
Speaker 1: I have been hacked. My social media has been hacked
Speaker 1: and someone tweeted something embarrassing about me from my account.
Speaker 1: This is back in the day of Twitter. So look,
Speaker 1: there's plausible deny.
Speaker 2: They already there.
Speaker 1: She could have been hacked, but I don't think it's
Speaker 1: probably more like a hay Boomer situation.
Speaker 2: Tina says, I don't play when it comes to my family,
Speaker 2: which basically she means she doesn't gossip about it. Was
Speaker 2: she doesn't, She says, if you see so if you
Speaker 2: see anything like this from me, No, it wasn't me,
Speaker 2: which is also quite a good cloak. But Mia then
Speaker 2: we come to the Red Carpet because the following day
Speaker 2: one of the biggest holiday movie releases comes out, Mafassa,
Speaker 2: which is a Lion King spinoff, and both Beyonce and
Speaker 2: Her and jay Z's daughter Blue Ivy have roles in
Speaker 2: that movie. They have speaking, singing roles in that movie.
Speaker 2: So the Red Carpet, they're there, and does jay Z
Speaker 2: go the day after he has been accused of a
Speaker 2: Heenus crime and vehemently denied it. Of course he does, Maya,
Speaker 2: what was that about?
Speaker 1: That is a rich text if you watch the coverage
Speaker 1: of that Red carpet, It is a rich text for
Speaker 1: so many reasons. Blue Ivy has a starring role in
Speaker 1: this movie, Mafasa. It's a sort of sequel to The
Speaker 1: Lion King, and she plays the daughter of I think
Speaker 1: Nala and Simp. So this was her time to shine.
Speaker 1: This is her moment. This is kind of like Apple
Speaker 1: Martin at the Debutante Ball, except she actually did a
Speaker 1: thing instead of just wearing a dress and turning up.
Speaker 1: She's twelve and she's wearing this incredible gold princess gown.
Speaker 1: She looks incredible, she's very tall. And the reason it's
Speaker 1: such a rich text. Before jay Z even arrives on
Speaker 1: the red carpet is that usually Beyonce doesn't do red carpets.
Speaker 1: She usually has her own paparazzi photographer. She comes either
Speaker 1: right at the end, her photographer takes photos and releases them,
Speaker 1: and she doesn't pose next to anyone. She's very, very
Speaker 1: particular about what she does. She's earned that right. But
Speaker 1: as any mother of a tween or teen daughter will
Speaker 1: recognize the body language. If you watch the not just
Speaker 1: the still photos, but the footage of this blue Ivy's
Speaker 1: on the red carpet on her own, looking amazing, and
Speaker 1: then Beyonce like apologetically scurries just to stand next to her.
Speaker 1: She's in a much smaller dress so as not to
Speaker 1: upstage her. She looks super proud. But there's all of that,
Speaker 1: and then jay Z arrives and when you look at
Speaker 1: the rictus grin on Beyonce's face, she's at work, she's
Speaker 1: supporting her daughter, she's doing what she needs to do.
Speaker 1: She looks like I can't even explain how she looks,
Speaker 1: and then jay Z's trying to be like cool and
Speaker 1: they're all trying to be like yep, we're just a
Speaker 1: happy family. Nothing to see here.
Speaker 2: There's a world in which he didn't go to that right, Like,
Speaker 2: I mean, it would have been given what had just happened,
Speaker 2: but I suppose that maybe given also that he's come
Speaker 2: out swinging so hard, it was very important that he
Speaker 2: was there.
Speaker 1: There's a world in which the publicist for that movie,
Speaker 1: the poor publicist for that movie, got her wish or
Speaker 1: his wish, And yeah, jay Z wasn't on that carpet,
Speaker 1: but it was a very again a rich text. It
Speaker 1: was giving everybody a very big message that beyonces behind him,
Speaker 1: Blue Ivy is behind him. They have nothing to hide,
Speaker 1: they have nothing to be ashamed of.
Speaker 3: And that that and this is what his statement was about,
Speaker 3: that his family the victims here, that he has had
Speaker 3: to sit down with his children, as he said.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he mentioned Blue Ivy not by name, but one
Speaker 1: of my daughters is old enough that was clearly Blue Ivy.
Speaker 1: I mean he put her in there. Yeah, So it
Speaker 1: was again plausible if you've been accused of something that
Speaker 1: you didn't do. But it is also an example of
Speaker 1: Davo h when the real victim here is Blue Ivy
Speaker 1: who's going to have her premiere ruined, and my family
Speaker 1: and me, and then Tina Noles was also on the
Speaker 1: red carpet, like you could, honestly, they could write dissertations
Speaker 1: about this red carpet.
Speaker 2: And the real victim, obviously is the alleged victim.
Speaker 3: And the optics of jay Z there to support his
Speaker 3: twelve year old daughter in this role when the alleged
Speaker 3: victim in this case was thirteen like a child, I
Speaker 3: think is startling.
Speaker 2: There's something I can't stop thinking about. Right, There's a
Speaker 2: song by jay Z called four forty four, which my
Speaker 2: daughter plays in the car all the time because my
Speaker 2: daughter's really interrupt music. I don't know why she just is.
Speaker 2: And I obsess over this song because it's all about
Speaker 2: what a shit he's been, and it's an open letter
Speaker 2: to Beyonce this song, right. It was released in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 2: after Lemonade, After Lemonade, after she released her album about
Speaker 2: what a shit husband he was, he then released his
Speaker 2: own but in it some of the lyrics are.
Speaker 3: And if my children known, I don't even know what
Speaker 3: I would do a thing look at me to.
Speaker 2: Say, I will probably die with all the Shane. My
Speaker 2: heart breaks for the day I have explained my mistakes
Speaker 2: and the mask goes away.
Speaker 1: With Becky with the good hair.
Speaker 3: I't think so, do you know what about something else?
Speaker 3: Because people might remember as well. We did an episode
Speaker 3: of Canceled recently on Beyonce. It was tongue in cheek
Speaker 3: and about a lot of the conspiracy theories, but of
Speaker 3: course the lift incident with Solange. So they were in
Speaker 3: an elevator leaving the met Gala, leaving the met Gala,
Speaker 3: and I think he spoke to someone at the met
Speaker 3: Galla and they think that something went off. Bet Solange
Speaker 3: physically attacked him in an elevator. And what was most
Speaker 3: interesting to a lot of people was that Beyonce was
Speaker 3: in the elevator in the corner and didn't interrupt.
Speaker 1: Didn't she just stood there and he also took it.
Speaker 1: What I didn't realize also reading about this, is that
Speaker 1: he's a fair amount older than her. There's photos going
Speaker 1: around of him when he was twenty eight with a
Speaker 1: whole lot of other dudes that were at a Destiny's
Speaker 1: Child concert and she was sixteen. The story that they
Speaker 1: tell is that they met when she was eighteen, and
Speaker 1: they were just friends for a year and a half,
Speaker 1: and they only started dating when she was nineteen. I
Speaker 1: don't know how many thirty year olds want to be
Speaker 1: friends with eighteen year old hot young women. But anyway,
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that she had been with him since
Speaker 1: she was nineteen. She have her entire adult life, She's
Speaker 1: never really had any other boyfriends.
Speaker 2: And that's what that song is about. And he talks
Speaker 2: in it about mena jatoires and all the things that, like,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of shit has gone on in that
Speaker 2: life and that.
Speaker 3: Relationship in a moment, Can you copyright a vibe? One
Speaker 3: influencer seems to think so, and to tell you all
Speaker 3: about it after the break? Can you copyright a vibe?
Speaker 3: Sandra E Garcia wrote a very thought provoking piece in
Speaker 3: The New York Times this week all about a lifestyle
Speaker 3: influencer named Sidney Gifford. Gifford lives in Minnesota, and she
Speaker 3: posts about her home and fashion. And if you scroll
Speaker 3: through her Instagram account, which has more than three hundred
Speaker 3: thousand followers, you'll find reels of white and beige. Home
Speaker 3: wears white and beige clothes, white and beige shoes. I'm
Speaker 3: not being snarky. That is literally her aesthetics.
Speaker 2: Talk on Monday, didn't we about how color has disappeared,
Speaker 2: particularly from homes? And that sounds that's her.
Speaker 1: You know you call it a neutral palette.
Speaker 3: Yes, she is all neutral palette. Every now and then
Speaker 3: she does a jewelry flat lay. But she has a
Speaker 3: very clear and intentional look. But then something strange happened
Speaker 3: to Gifford. So a photo popped up and it was
Speaker 3: published by another influencer named Alyssa. Sheel Strangely, she actually
Speaker 3: knew Alyssa. They had met up, I think a year
Speaker 3: or two before to do you know how influences sometimes
Speaker 3: get together and gone make content. Anyway, they'd gone and
Speaker 3: done that. Apparently it was a bit awkward. It was
Speaker 3: a bit weird, and Alyssa had blocked her and gone
Speaker 3: their separate ways. But a friend then sends her Alyssa's
Speaker 3: content and says, this is identical to yours. And she
Speaker 3: is struck by a post by Shiel where there's an
Speaker 3: oversized beige cable nit sweater. She has her hair parted
Speaker 3: in exactly the same way in the center her pose
Speaker 3: is identical, and Gifford is like foot forward, Yes, a
Speaker 3: jutted out hip. And she she's saying, this is identical
Speaker 3: to something I posted a few days ago. She claims
Speaker 3: that Shiel had been mimicking her online persona and appropriating
Speaker 3: her look, her natural beige cream aesthetic. She was using
Speaker 3: the same fonts, she was using the same camera angles,
Speaker 3: and she even replicated her haircut and apartment. And this
Speaker 3: one did get me. She got the same tattoo on
Speaker 3: the same spot on her byfap.
Speaker 2: Taking the piss.
Speaker 1: It was on her side until just now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like a flower tattoo and like she died
Speaker 3: her hair and stuff.
Speaker 2: Anyway, she says, single white female. Yeah.
Speaker 3: She says that the imitation is costing her money. And
Speaker 3: this is interesting because she spends a lot of time
Speaker 3: curating her Amazon storefront. So basically she buys a lot
Speaker 3: of homewares, say, and then she markets those products to
Speaker 3: her audience. So it's an affiliate link. Yeah, it's an
Speaker 3: affiliate link, so people might not understand what that means.
Speaker 1: So if you like my shorts, click on this link
Speaker 1: to buy them, and then she gets a little percentage
Speaker 1: of the cost of the shorts if you do buy them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so what giff That is doing is seeking up
Speaker 3: to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in damages for
Speaker 3: lost income and mental anguish. Why I'm finding this case
Speaker 3: interesting is because, as The New York Times puts it,
Speaker 3: it gets to the heart of social media influence. Garcia writes,
Speaker 3: the very nature of successful trendsetting requires there's some degree
Speaker 3: of replication, and depending on what comes of the lawsuit,
Speaker 3: it could set an important precedent for influencers and how
Speaker 3: they present themselves online. Maya, can you copyright a vibe?
Speaker 3: Or is social media just constant replication? Isn't that what
Speaker 3: social media is copying each other?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what trends are. That's how algorithms work. That's
Speaker 1: how you get fed more and more of what you like.
Speaker 1: And I don't know. Some people have a really strong
Speaker 1: sense of their own style. I'm very porous when it
Speaker 1: comes to my style. Whoever I'm sort of looking at,
Speaker 1: I will start to emulate them. You know how some
Speaker 1: people will talk in accents when they're in other countries,
Speaker 1: and some people say that's really affected, But I do
Speaker 1: it subconsciously. I've said before when I was hanging around Asher,
Speaker 1: and on the set of Strife, I started dressing like
Speaker 1: Asher and Ash's character Evelyn in Strife, which was like
Speaker 1: suits and sneakers, and that was a particular aesthetic I suppose,
Speaker 1: like with Trinny, I was wearing I love always won
Speaker 1: a lot of sequence. But I'm very influenced now. Addressed
Speaker 1: like a kind of an eccentric grandpa is my vibe.
Speaker 1: It's sort of a Copenhagen style. Why hagen Hagen, I
Speaker 1: don't know how you say it.
Speaker 3: Am in Gifford's defense though, right the Amazon storefront thing
Speaker 3: is a limited market. If you both share a picture
Speaker 3: of the same white T shirt and I'm going to
Speaker 3: affiliate link by one of them, then there is only
Speaker 3: room for so many of you. So if I buy
Speaker 3: Hollies and not yours, then I've cost you money.
Speaker 1: But it's like a hall of mirrors because if the
Speaker 1: point of influence is to monetize that influence by people
Speaker 1: copying whatever it is that you are wearing, what you've bought,
Speaker 1: what you're doing, then of course you're going to have
Speaker 1: lots of little clones out there who are then going
Speaker 1: to market to their It's like kind of like a
Speaker 1: pyramid scheme. I guess in a way, that's what influencing
Speaker 1: is one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, isn't that the whole point
Speaker 2: of influencer is that you're like, you see somebody's lovely
Speaker 2: beije home and you go, well, I'm about to decorate.
Speaker 2: I think I'll decorate like that. I mean, that's the
Speaker 2: point of it.
Speaker 3: I think too that Amazon. I read this article. It
Speaker 3: was in The Verge by Mia Sato, and it went
Speaker 3: into how a lot of these Amazon storefront things work,
Speaker 3: and Amazon actually tells influencers what they want you to promote.
Speaker 3: So the fact that every influencer you follow is telling
Speaker 3: you to buy the same Bucle armchair is not a coincidence.
Speaker 3: It's because Amazon is saying, let's put this in front
Speaker 3: of you, so it's less.
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of bucle armchairs to clear. I've
Speaker 1: set up a storefront because people were like, where can
Speaker 1: I get this? Where can I get that? Except I
Speaker 1: don't know how to I have worked out how to
Speaker 1: use it.
Speaker 2: You need to trademark. I fell into a dressing up box,
Speaker 2: had three martinis and all that. Because that's kind of
Speaker 2: your vibe. I'd like if I wonder if you could
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm also.
Speaker 1: Curious, Like I've got these yellow shoes that you guys
Speaker 1: just absolutely hate. Now I kind of use my social
Speaker 1: media to trol my audience, which is like I know
Speaker 1: that people are just going to hate these, and I'm
Speaker 1: interested to see if anyone would buy them. You know,
Speaker 1: this is how people are making income by doing these
Speaker 1: affiliate marketing. Like you've seen all these gift guides that
Speaker 1: we've just been inundated with every single person who's doing
Speaker 1: a gift gide.
Speaker 2: I did one last week. That's all getting any affiliate.
Speaker 1: Well, they're you stupid. So for most people that's affiliate marketing,
Speaker 1: and maybe you can get some And why not, Like
Speaker 1: if you're telling people to go and buy this sofa
Speaker 1: and someone does, and you're sending people that way, why
Speaker 1: shouldn't you get a little bit of it? Okay, but
Speaker 1: to neutrals and how you trademark them and one foot
Speaker 1: in front of the other. Yes, I mean I don't
Speaker 1: know what's influence and what single white female. So back
Speaker 1: to the vibe, right, It's like, so if you do
Speaker 1: genuinely believe you were one of the early adopters of
Speaker 1: a look or a style of writing, or a style
Speaker 1: of you know, I mean, I remember that in the
Speaker 1: early days of Mom and mea there was a very
Speaker 1: distinctive Internet voice that then everybody started writing in and
Speaker 1: you know that happens all the time, and there are
Speaker 1: there's a language of the Internet. There's a language of TikTok,
Speaker 1: there's a language of that. Everybody then picks up and
Speaker 1: goes with the very first person who ever said it.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's very hard to pick, right. So the
Speaker 1: idea of a vibe is interesting because she's right, like
Speaker 1: if that was very much her distinctive thing, and she's
Speaker 1: like neutral cell, groundbreaking. I I the first person who ever.
Speaker 2: Put a beige couch on a grage run. They're like,
Speaker 2: that is hard to gatekeep. But there's something we're going
Speaker 2: on with the tattoo, That's all I've got to say.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And this journalist who went and visited them both
Speaker 3: said it was like walking into the same home. She
Speaker 3: walked into the same home, but then she said, I
Speaker 3: think we're all living in the same home. Yeah, Which
Speaker 3: is your point, Holly from Monday, which is that algorithms
Speaker 3: have flattened our culture so much that we all just
Speaker 3: are kind of constantly replicating each other because it's being projected, and.
Speaker 1: You often don't even realize why you do. It's like,
Speaker 1: there's a reason why the first time you see baro
Speaker 1: jeans you go uh yuck, the second time you go
Speaker 1: uh yuck, the hundredth time you go oh, and then
Speaker 1: the one hundred and fiftieth time you're like, I need some
Speaker 1: barrel leg jeans. Like that's how trends work.
Speaker 3: Yes, but I suppose I'm thinking about the art of
Speaker 3: it all right. Like copyright when it comes to writers
Speaker 3: and artists and fashion designers is massive, and it's something
Speaker 3: that is really complicated because it's you don't really trademark
Speaker 3: an idea. What you can trademark is very specific.
Speaker 1: West always saying magazines, you can't copyright an idea because
Speaker 1: women's magazines essentially would recycle the same stories among each
Speaker 1: other and among themselves again and again and again. It's like, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's September, it's the hair book.
Speaker 3: And you're constantly influenced by lots of things. Oh, this
Speaker 3: is going well on this website, and this idea is
Speaker 3: going well, and we'll grab that, and every news site
Speaker 3: is writing around a TikTok, and in academia, your footnote,
Speaker 3: you're constantly referencing where something has come from.
Speaker 1: So on Internet culture, I once did a thing where
Speaker 1: I incidentally I didn't realize obviously it had gone into
Speaker 1: my subconscious I did a thing of like a Celeste Barber,
Speaker 1: you know how she has a celebrity photo and then
Speaker 1: she does her version of it, and I thought, oh,
Speaker 1: there was this photo of Jal and I thought I
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be funny if I did my version of it?
Speaker 1: And then a lot of people in the comments were
Speaker 1: like tagged celest barbera and I was like, oh shit.
Speaker 1: And what you've got to do is you've got to
Speaker 1: say ht, which is hat tip yes at Celest Barber.
Speaker 1: So that's the Internet equivalent of footnotes.
Speaker 3: Yes, but broadly that has been entirely lost. I always
Speaker 3: see and I think that TikTok has a lot to
Speaker 3: answer for in this is that replication, trend setting, even
Speaker 3: templates is the aim of the game.
Speaker 1: It's not a floor, it's a feature.
Speaker 3: It's a feature. And I think there's something really depressing
Speaker 3: about that that I see a comedy video. I saw
Speaker 3: a comedy video the other day and I went, oh,
Speaker 3: that's funny, and then I realized that that was an
Speaker 3: exact replica of the comedy video that was made two
Speaker 3: weeks ago by this creator who probably got half as
Speaker 3: many views. But the irony of all of this, the
Speaker 3: irony of the influencer coming out and saying, you copied
Speaker 3: me replica, blah blah blah, is that you know that
Speaker 3: buckle armchair that you are saying, I am the custodian
Speaker 3: of Do you realize that that is a replica of
Speaker 3: a much more expensive design, like everything on a lot
Speaker 3: of these websites is. And this is the problem with
Speaker 3: all design. Any designer will say this that someone put
Speaker 3: all this effort into creating this incredible vision and then
Speaker 3: somewhere really cheap, really unsustainably made that piece of furniture
Speaker 3: so that everyone could buy it. And that's kind of
Speaker 3: where art design creativity. That's why it's dying.
Speaker 2: All roads lead back to Meryl Streep in Devil Wears
Speaker 2: Proda when she says that about that jumper, doesn't.
Speaker 4: She Okay, I see you think this has nothing to
Speaker 4: do with you. You go to your closet and you
Speaker 4: select I don't know that lumpy blue sweater, for instance,
Speaker 4: because you're trying to tell the world that you take
Speaker 4: yourself too seriously to care about what you put on
Speaker 4: your back. What you don't know is that that sweater is.
Speaker 1: Not just blue.
Speaker 4: It's not to her quoise, it's not lapis, it's actually ceruleum.
Speaker 2: W was past. It's the end of an era, but
Speaker 2: the start of an a singing.
Speaker 1: The Eras tour ended on Monday. Guys, did you notice
Speaker 1: no big surprises or announcements in the final show. I
Speaker 1: thought maybe she'd announced that she was pregnant.
Speaker 2: Why would she do that? That is the most untailed
Speaker 2: Swift thing that she could do.
Speaker 1: It was my fan fiction.
Speaker 2: If she's pregnant, I reckon, she'll never tell us. I
Speaker 2: was like, I'm having this baby, Yes I am.
Speaker 3: I don't know what you're talking about, Bessie. Secondly, as
Speaker 3: someone who I really like Taylor Swift, I'm not a Swifty.
Speaker 3: Why is it such a big deal that the Eras
Speaker 3: tour is over?
Speaker 1: Okay, well, it's been going on for almost two years,
Speaker 1: around eighteen months. Actually, she's played one hundred and forty
Speaker 1: nine shows and the tour went to fifty four cities.
Speaker 1: In twenty one countries and five out of the seven constance.
Speaker 3: Content type of a lot of letters.
Speaker 1: Yes, there are a lot of consonants. In her tour,
Speaker 1: she missed no dates except for the three that she
Speaker 1: was forced to cancel in Vienna because of a planned
Speaker 1: terrorist attack. That's pretty extraordinary. She was not sick for
Speaker 1: a single night of those shows. They went for three
Speaker 1: and a half hours each.
Speaker 3: Imagine the smoothie she's having. I would love to like
Speaker 3: she must be. You'd focus so much on your health
Speaker 3: and your energy levels.
Speaker 1: Yes, much. She says. She doesn't drink when she's performing,
Speaker 1: and she's when she's not singing because she has like
Speaker 1: a few days break between each sort of batch of shows.
Speaker 1: She's on complete vocal rest because imagine she sings full
Speaker 1: out for three and a half hours often like three
Speaker 1: or four nights in a row, and then she'll have
Speaker 1: few days off. Anyway, listen to this. Her biggest show
Speaker 1: to date was at Melbourne Cricket Ground in Australia, where
Speaker 1: she performed for ninety six thousand people, of which I
Speaker 1: was one. That's the one Coco and I were at
Speaker 1: and it is the best. It was incredible. That was
Speaker 1: the most people she ever played for I did. You're
Speaker 1: not meant to say that because I'll get you sorry.
Speaker 3: I think people are right.
Speaker 1: Yes, I did go twice. I also went in Sydney,
Speaker 1: but the Melbourne one was my favorite. Around ten million
Speaker 1: people have attended the Eras tour and she sang all
Speaker 1: too well. You know the song about Jake Jillian, that
Speaker 1: song she sang a ten minute version of that on
Speaker 1: stage acoustically. She plays it in every show, which means
Speaker 1: that she has played it for twenty five hours and
Speaker 1: eighteen minutes over one full day.
Speaker 3: Imagine how sick she would bear of that song.
Speaker 2: You know what I keep thinking about me, I've got
Speaker 2: more facts.
Speaker 1: Just sush because it's important. The global economic impact from
Speaker 1: the Ears to her alone is thirteen to twenty eight
Speaker 1: billion dollars, which roughly translates to the GDP of a
Speaker 1: small country. And according to Forbes, she makes between ten
Speaker 1: and thirteen million dollars per show. She just paid out
Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety seven million dollars in tips to
Speaker 1: her crew.
Speaker 2: She treats her crew well, she pays more.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, there's other facts, but here's what I.
Speaker 2: Want to know. Well, what I keep thinking about rather
Speaker 2: is the relationship timeline because if on this December the eleventh,
Speaker 2: you did get dumped, I want you to think about
Speaker 2: how different your life could be at eighteen months. Because
Speaker 2: when Taylor Swift started that tour, she was allegedly still
Speaker 2: going out with Joe Olwen right, well we all thought so, yeah,
Speaker 2: she broke up with him. She had an affair with
Speaker 2: somebody else, a flat Laddie Healy. I only just saw
Speaker 2: the video of the podcast where Travis Kelcey, so the
Speaker 2: tour had already started. Travis Kelcey talks to his brother
Speaker 2: about how he tried to go and give Taylor a
Speaker 2: bracelet with her number on it, and she wouldn't see
Speaker 2: him because she doesn't talk since that. Fast forward to
Speaker 2: the end of the tour. He's dancing on a freaking
Speaker 2: stage in a top hat. They're the most iconic couple
Speaker 2: in the world. And now Mia thinks that she's having
Speaker 2: his baby. Yes she is. So I just want to
Speaker 2: tell everybody a lot can change in eighteen months. Look
Speaker 2: at what's happened to Travis Kelsey in eighteen months. A
Speaker 2: rainbow has been shot up that man's art. Eighteen months birth.
Speaker 1: Stay to Taylor for two days time she turns thirty
Speaker 1: five on the thirteenth of December.
Speaker 2: Holder sad Geez.
Speaker 3: Speaking of tours out Louders, this is your reminder to
Speaker 3: buy tickets while you still can to our live show.
Speaker 3: Maya update at the top of our lady board.
Speaker 1: On the leaderboard, it's still Perth Perth ninety five percent Perth.
Speaker 1: You nearly sold out.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I met some last week. You'll hear
Speaker 3: more about this in my best Friends and what some
Speaker 3: Perth out Loud and Perth out Louders and they might
Speaker 3: be the premium out louder there. I said it.
Speaker 1: Every person you met in person they were coming to
Speaker 1: the show.
Speaker 2: They did.
Speaker 3: They all said I'm coming. I'm very very excited.
Speaker 1: Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne are selling very very fast because
Speaker 1: out loud As are egger beavers.
Speaker 2: It's the Mama Mia Out Loud Live twenty twenty five show.
Speaker 2: It's called All or Nothing and it's presented by Nivia Cellular.
Speaker 2: It's an all new show. So if you did come
Speaker 2: and see us in May this year. Not like Taylor
Speaker 2: Swift who's been doing the same show, Lazy Girl, She's
Speaker 2: so lazy that Swifty. We are making a whole new
Speaker 2: show for you, with all new costumes, all new gags,
Speaker 2: all new arguments. You've got to come along. Head to
Speaker 2: outloud live dot com dot au to get your pause
Speaker 2: on some tickets before they sell out, and of course
Speaker 2: that link is in the show notes.
Speaker 1: After the break, the children's book that shaped many childhoods
Speaker 1: is being canceled. Plus we have a couple more to
Speaker 1: add to our burning books list.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, what unlimited out loud access. We drop
Speaker 3: episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Muma Maya subscribers.
Speaker 3: Follow the link in the show notes to get us
Speaker 3: in your ears five days a week, and a huge
Speaker 3: thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1: If you're wondering why you need therapy, it's time to
Speaker 1: blame the book you read when you were a small child.
Speaker 1: There's an article written for Mamma Mia this week by
Speaker 1: Cassandra Green called did this book shape your childhood? Apparently
Speaker 1: it's why we all need therapy, And the book is
Speaker 1: The Rainbowfish.
Speaker 2: I love The Rainbow Feed by Marcus Fister.
Speaker 1: It was published in nineteen ninety two and when I
Speaker 1: read this, I immediately envisage the book and knew the cover,
Speaker 1: and I did have that book and read it to
Speaker 1: my kids in case you can't remember what it's about,
Speaker 1: because I couldn't. The rainbow Fish follows the story of
Speaker 1: the most beautiful fish in the entire ocean. It is
Speaker 1: a fish that has shimmering, colorful scales. Although admired for
Speaker 1: its beauty, the rainbow fish feels lonely because it refuses
Speaker 1: to share its shiny scales with others. I don't even
Speaker 1: know how that would work. After seeking advice from a
Speaker 1: wise octopus, the rainbow fish decides to share its scales,
Speaker 1: which sounds painful, realizing the joy of generosity and friendship.
Speaker 1: By the end of the story, the rainbow fish is
Speaker 1: surrounded by happy friends, having found true happiness in giving
Speaker 1: your whole?
Speaker 3: Is that correct?
Speaker 1: Because you could remember the rainbowfish?
Speaker 2: And I thought that's lovely, And then I saw some
Speaker 2: of these tiktoks.
Speaker 1: Not lovely because well correct, It seemed to us like
Speaker 1: the story of the rainbow Fish was an allegory for
Speaker 1: banishing ego and considering others before ourselves sharing.
Speaker 3: Everyone needs to learn to share.
Speaker 1: The fish learned to have a giving mindset instead of
Speaker 1: a growth mindset, and to care about those around him. However,
Speaker 1: psychologist Caroline Milsdorf on social media this week critiqued The
Speaker 1: Rainbow Fish, suggesting that it promotes people pleasing over healthy generosity.
Speaker 1: She argues that the story precious children to give up
Speaker 1: their uniqueness and boundaries to gain acceptance from others. So, yes,
Speaker 1: the book sends a problematic message. Children's value is tied
Speaker 1: to how much they do for others.
Speaker 3: The world needs more people pleasing. I think people pleasing
Speaker 3: is a great message. The thing is about hoarding is
Speaker 3: holding your own scales. Now, holding your own scales is
Speaker 3: your instinct as someone with a child at the moment.
Speaker 3: Not sharing is the instinct. Hence why we write books
Speaker 3: about how we must share.
Speaker 1: But Jesse must I share my skin with you? Literally?
Speaker 3: I mean I know you bitches.
Speaker 1: Where my clothes are lost?
Speaker 3: Is at this the whole point that you walk around.
Speaker 3: For example, you want to teach your child how lucky
Speaker 3: they are and how they have things, not because they're
Speaker 3: better than anyone else, not because they earned anything, but
Speaker 3: because they were lucky enough to be born with a
Speaker 3: particular gifts or rainbow fish still check its privilege yes,
Speaker 3: and walk around and go I'm going to give this
Speaker 3: to others because I am part of a community and
Speaker 3: this analysis is some neoliberal bullshit which is all about
Speaker 3: you're an individual and you can't give away your stuff
Speaker 3: and you must just look after yourself, and which is
Speaker 3: very very damaging.
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree, And I was like, what are you
Speaker 2: talking about them?
Speaker 3: Then?
Speaker 2: When I listen to what they were saying, these people,
Speaker 2: because she's not the only one, this woman on TikTok,
Speaker 2: they're saying that the other people are bullies, the ones
Speaker 2: who are saying, give me one of your scales, give
Speaker 2: me one of your scales, give me one of your scales.
Speaker 5: You start off here with rainbow fish, just an introduction.
Speaker 5: This is the most beautiful fish in the sea. And
Speaker 5: this little boring ass fish goes, rainbelfish, give me one
Speaker 5: of your shiny scales.
Speaker 1: You have so many.
Speaker 5: Rainbowfish responds rightfully by saying, you want me to give
Speaker 5: you one of my special skills. Who do you think
Speaker 5: you are? Get away from me? This little punk runs away,
Speaker 5: shocked shit talks rainbowfish to his friends, and from then
Speaker 5: on nobody wants anything to do with rainbow fish.
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, they are She's right.
Speaker 3: No life is just people asking you for shit.
Speaker 2: They say that, no, wonder we don't have boundaries, because
Speaker 2: what the fish should have done is said, I'm very
Speaker 2: sorry that you would like to have some shimmery scales
Speaker 2: of your own, but these are my shimmery scales.
Speaker 1: And I'll be trademarking my vibe exactly.
Speaker 2: I'd never thought of it like that. It blew my mind,
Speaker 2: and then I realized, exactly what you've just said is
Speaker 2: that the rainbow fish is like a socialist parable right.
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, we share the riches between everybody, and
Speaker 2: it does not vibe with our individualistic times. But the
Speaker 2: thing is, I genuinely read that book to my kids
Speaker 2: every night, and I never thought of this, and now
Speaker 2: it's all I can see boundaries. The fish needs boundaries.
Speaker 3: I don't think the fish needs boundaries. I think that
Speaker 3: the idea that you are part of a community is
Speaker 3: a very one and I think that we are overthinking it.
Speaker 2: What about the bit where she says this is why
Speaker 2: all millennials people pleasers who suffer from burnout.
Speaker 3: I don't think we are a bunch of people pleases.
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of burnout, it's made me question everything, including
Speaker 1: where is the green sheep by our beloved men fox,
Speaker 1: which what's that Mourner is particularly interested in. Everybody's looking
Speaker 1: for the green sheep, Jesse. And they can find all
Speaker 1: the other sheeps. They can find bath sheep, they can
Speaker 1: find bed sheep, they can find red sheep, they can
Speaker 1: find all the different sheeps, but they can't find the
Speaker 1: green sheep. And do you know why why the green
Speaker 1: sheep is asleep under a bush? And I think that's
Speaker 1: an all agree about burnout, social anxiety and quiet quitting.
Speaker 1: That's so true. I think that the green sheep is
Speaker 1: quite queer. I think it's quite quitting the book.
Speaker 2: I do you think there needs to be people should
Speaker 2: just stop looking for the green sheep because the green
Speaker 2: sheep is worthless lazy.
Speaker 1: Also, the green sheep needs some time to reach out
Speaker 1: to you social batteries, away from all the other bloody
Speaker 1: sheep doing things like going down slides and jumping off
Speaker 1: piers they're so busy, or the others of trains.
Speaker 3: I think you're projecting. I struggle with the very hungry
Speaker 3: caterpillar because I think that it promotes disordered eating because.
Speaker 1: It's it's binging.
Speaker 3: It is binging, and it's a bit shamy.
Speaker 2: But they're very hungry. Caterpillar eats his or hers way
Speaker 2: through lots of healthy food.
Speaker 1: It's fuel to become like you need fuel.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But then it's like, oh, and then the caterpillar
Speaker 3: had a tummy ache, and it's like, oh, you're trying
Speaker 3: and tell my kid not to eat as much as
Speaker 3: they feel like or are you trying to tell my
Speaker 3: kid that they must binge in order to grow.
Speaker 1: It because they need to recognize the signals when they
Speaker 1: are full, and they shouldn't emotionally eat. I also, I
Speaker 1: think the hungry caterpillar is emotionally eating. I think that
Speaker 1: it was too feelings.
Speaker 3: I struggle with you know how you were talking about
Speaker 3: the rainbow fish and how the octopus says something to it.
Speaker 3: It's really hard when a child is trying to understand
Speaker 3: the world around them when every animal in every book
Speaker 3: talks and wears clothes, up your expectation and has a
Speaker 3: half glasses, and you've got to go. You know what.
Speaker 3: Giraffes don't come up.
Speaker 1: Much in puses. You might not ever see.
Speaker 3: You might talk to one in your whole life. You're
Speaker 3: probably not going to talk.
Speaker 1: To them, probably not going to bear a hat. No, exactly.
Speaker 2: But this is why we give all the animals in
Speaker 2: our lives voices. This is why your dog talked like this.
Speaker 1: Yes, I see a lot of sheep at the playground.
Speaker 1: There's not actually a lot of sheep. Where are the sheep?
Speaker 1: Why aren't they going down the slide?
Speaker 2: Dear zoo?
Speaker 3: Because dear Zoo is all about I wrote to the
Speaker 3: zoo to send me a pet. They sent me an
Speaker 3: elephant in a box. I'm like, we're not sending yeah,
Speaker 3: or a snake or a monkey in a box. You know,
Speaker 3: send them back. That's an episode and we know what
Speaker 3: happens when you send them back. They've got a landfill
Speaker 3: border force. What do they called Australian.
Speaker 2: Control the landfill?
Speaker 3: We really this is escalated quickly.
Speaker 2: One of the things about children's books is they've always
Speaker 2: had allegories of messages, right, but not everything in childhood
Speaker 2: to be educational, we just need some books that are
Speaker 2: just fun.
Speaker 1: Foster Blake's book about farts.
Speaker 2: Yes, the reason kids like the rainbow fish actually is
Speaker 2: very superficial. It's because it's sparkly. That's why they like it.
Speaker 2: You get to touch the spark exactly. You get to
Speaker 2: touch the sparkly scales. It's beautifully produced. You can get
Speaker 2: a rainbow fish hanger, you can get a rainbow fish calendar.
Speaker 2: Good Not anymore, you can't because now it's been canceled
Speaker 2: for being the root of all evil. That is all
Speaker 2: we've got time for today, my friends. That is all
Speaker 2: we have time.
Speaker 1: We've run out of time on the internet. There's no
Speaker 1: more space left for our consonants.
Speaker 2: Just th that the Internet is saying enough.
Speaker 1: Enough, because the Internet has boundaries.
Speaker 2: They didn't read that book.
Speaker 3: No one tries to replicate our vibe, because I would
Speaker 3: love someone to try and replicate ours.
Speaker 1: I should say, speaking of our vibe that as we
Speaker 1: are the top of the leaderboard for women's podcasts in Australia,
Speaker 1: and we're number four for all of the podcasts, so
Speaker 1: well done to you for putting us there.
Speaker 2: Really were as leaderboard. Obsession is getting out of control
Speaker 2: before we go. Almost every workplace has an inappropriate man
Speaker 2: in it. Actually not ours, not ours, momma. There are
Speaker 2: a few men here. They're not inappropriate.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, except when my dog was
Speaker 1: biting people, But that wasn't a man, It was actually
Speaker 1: a girl dog. So ignore me and continued even work.
Speaker 2: Then fold up your leaderboards and put him under the tree.
Speaker 2: It's a big We have a massive thank you to
Speaker 2: all of you out louders for listening to today's show
Speaker 2: and to our fabulous team for putting it together.
Speaker 1: We're going to be on the top of the Lead
Speaker 1: Lady leaderboard if there wasn't for our listeners.
Speaker 2: Thank you out Loudness. It's not about me as leaderboard.
Speaker 2: We appreciate you anyway. We need to write a children's
Speaker 2: book about that. We'll be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 2: On our most recent Subs episode, em Vernon and I
Speaker 2: talk about Greg Wallace, who is a very problematic English
Speaker 2: TV presenter who has turned out to be very much
Speaker 2: that inappropriate guy in a workplace, and what the hell
Speaker 2: you do about and why women off a certain age
Speaker 2: in inverted commas may be the ones to call them out.
Speaker 2: Maybe the reason that the women who are complaining about
Speaker 2: this are what we would call middle class and middle
Speaker 2: age because they're the ones who can complain about it.
Speaker 2: Because if you're the junior grip on the show or
Speaker 2: one of the makeup women or whatever, and you're young
Speaker 2: and you're at the beginning of your career. You're not
Speaker 2: going to go straight in with a complaint about the
Speaker 2: guy who's been hosting the show for twenty years. No,
Speaker 2: I don't even know. We're allowed to complain about those things.
Speaker 2: You are absolutely allowed to complain about these things. But,
Speaker 2: as this story suggests, as a link in the show
Speaker 2: notes where you.
Speaker 1: Can listen, Bye shout out to any Muma mia subscribers listening.
Speaker 1: If you love the show and want to support us
Speaker 1: as well, subscribing to MoMA mia is the very best
Speaker 1: way to do so. There is a link in the
Speaker 1: episode description