WEBVTT - Jay-Z And An Audacious Family PR Strategy

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Mamma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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<v Speaker 2>that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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<v Speaker 2>mom and Mia out loud. What women are actually talking

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<v Speaker 2>about on Wednesday, the eleventh of December. I'm Holly Wainwright,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm MEA Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens and on the

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<v Speaker 2>show today explaining the disturbing jay Z allegations that ended

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<v Speaker 2>up all over the red carpet of a massive new

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<v Speaker 2>Hollywood movie this week. Also, can You Copyright Your Vibe?

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<v Speaker 2>And the children's book I read to my kids every

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<v Speaker 2>night for years has just been unmasked as the primary

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<v Speaker 2>reason for generation anxious. Time to throw rainbow fish back, friends,

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<v Speaker 2>but first mea Friedman.

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<v Speaker 1>In case you missed it, Get the ice cream ready,

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<v Speaker 1>warm up the hot water bottle. Today is the day

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<v Speaker 1>couples are most likely to break up.

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<v Speaker 2>Why. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>The eleventh of December is the most common day of

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<v Speaker 1>the year for couples to split, and the date was

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<v Speaker 1>worked out from researchers who analyzed Facebook data.

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<v Speaker 3>Ah, so you go from in a couple to single?

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<v Speaker 2>Correct?

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<v Speaker 1>And the December period more broadly is known as breakup season.

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<v Speaker 1>So even if you manage to get through today, don't

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<v Speaker 1>count your chickens, because it could still happen.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I was going to say, the day is young.

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<v Speaker 3>As we're recording this, there is still half a day

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<v Speaker 3>for us to beat DOMP.

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<v Speaker 2>And the thing could happen when I get home tonight.

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<v Speaker 1>Psychotherapist and relationship expert Lyssi Abraham's told MoMA Mia that

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<v Speaker 1>this time period can lead to increased tension because of

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<v Speaker 1>all the stress that comes along with it. But we

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<v Speaker 1>had a few other reasons that we thought about. Maybe

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<v Speaker 1>you don't want to buy gifts because he lives.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes. I also I remember this time being with someone

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<v Speaker 3>and thinking I don't want him to come to my

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<v Speaker 3>family Christmas. And if you're in a relationship with someone,

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<v Speaker 3>they kind of think they're coming, and it's probably a

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<v Speaker 3>red flag when you go I'm embarrassed to introduce you

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<v Speaker 3>to my family.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, And other people are like, I can't do one

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<v Speaker 1>more Christmas with her family? Yeah, and you go in.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a time of change, I suppose, because I think

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<v Speaker 3>we're all beginning to imagine the new year and who

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<v Speaker 3>we want to be, and some changes we want to

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<v Speaker 3>make and you don't want to go into the new

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<v Speaker 3>year with the person you.

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<v Speaker 1>Want to relaunch in the new year if you've got

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<v Speaker 1>a bit of ick.

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<v Speaker 3>I also think the festive season is quite social, so

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<v Speaker 3>if you want to put yourself back on the market,

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<v Speaker 3>you don't want to miss out on December mingling.

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<v Speaker 2>No New Year's Eve, all those things you want to

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<v Speaker 2>because if you broke up today, it's still a good

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<v Speaker 2>three weeks before New Year's Eve, so it would be

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<v Speaker 2>socially acceptable for you to be flirting. Hear us off

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<v Speaker 2>yew Year's Eve party, exactly right.

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<v Speaker 1>The good news is that breakups on Christmas Day drop

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<v Speaker 1>super dramatically because I guess no one wants to be

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<v Speaker 1>that dick.

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<v Speaker 2>Who's got time for that. Jay Z has won twenty

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<v Speaker 2>four Grammys, he sold one hundred and forty million records,

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<v Speaker 2>He was the first hip hop billionaire, now worth a

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<v Speaker 2>reported two point five billion US dollars, and of course

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<v Speaker 2>he's mister Beyonce Knowles. And now he is also a

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<v Speaker 2>man who has been accused of child rape in the

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<v Speaker 2>most controversial of circumstances. If you've seen those headlines, here's

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<v Speaker 2>a quick explainer before we go into how all this

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<v Speaker 2>disturbing mess ended up on the red carpet of the

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<v Speaker 2>latest Lion King movie. Jay Z's real name is Sean Carter,

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<v Speaker 2>and here's long time mates with another Sean Sean Coombs,

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<v Speaker 2>otherwise known as p Diddy, who is currently in prison

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<v Speaker 2>in Brooklyn denied bail. He keeps offering fifty million dollars

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<v Speaker 2>bail to get out while he awaits trial. He's on

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<v Speaker 2>criminal charges of sex trafficking, racketeering, and transportation to engage

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<v Speaker 2>in prostitution. That court case is going to start in

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<v Speaker 2>May next year, and it's going to be huge and harrowing.

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<v Speaker 2>At the same time, more than one hundred and twenty

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<v Speaker 2>cases of sexual misconduct and assault involving Diddy are being

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<v Speaker 2>filed through civil court, mostly through one lawyer, a guy

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<v Speaker 2>named Tony Busby, who we will get to in a minute.

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<v Speaker 2>As we discussed a few weeks ago, charges brought through

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<v Speaker 2>civil court bear a lower burden of proof than criminal

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<v Speaker 2>cannot carry a jail term, and are often settled with

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<v Speaker 2>a financial payout. Many of the cases around Diddy center

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<v Speaker 2>around the so called free coughs that he held for decades,

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<v Speaker 2>basically sex parties that involved drugs, sex workers being paid

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<v Speaker 2>to perform, and allegedly the abuse of many of the

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<v Speaker 2>women in attendance. But what happened this week is that

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<v Speaker 2>for the first time, one of those civil claims named

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<v Speaker 2>jay Z. An unnamed woman says that jay Z and

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<v Speaker 2>Coombs drugged and raped her when she was thirteen years

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<v Speaker 2>old and at an after party following the two thousand VMAs.

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<v Speaker 2>The case also alleges that a famous woman named in

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<v Speaker 2>the case as Celebrity B watched the assault take place. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>this particular accusation isn't new. It was filed in October,

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<v Speaker 2>but at the time it only named Diddy and then

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<v Speaker 2>referred to Celebrity A and Celebrity B as having also

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<v Speaker 2>been in the room. But on Monday, Celebrity A was

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<v Speaker 2>named as jay Z. Now it's not a surprise that

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<v Speaker 2>at some point Carter was going to be implicated in

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<v Speaker 2>the Kumb's case. The pair have been friends for decades,

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<v Speaker 2>have been in business together, and Carter was a fixture

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<v Speaker 2>at many of Kuhm's parties. And he was clearly prepared

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<v Speaker 2>because he came out swinging immediately, saying that he'd been

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<v Speaker 2>blackmailed by an unscrupulous lawyer who had demanded money, or

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<v Speaker 2>he would name that Jay was celebrity.

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<v Speaker 1>A That statement was quite extraordinary, wasn't it?

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<v Speaker 2>It was. It's long and angry, and it says, among

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<v Speaker 2>other things, my lawyer received a blackmail attempt called a

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<v Speaker 2>demand letter from a lawyer. He puts lawyer in inverted

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<v Speaker 2>commas named Tony Busby. What he had calculated was the

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<v Speaker 2>nature of these allegations and the public scrutiny would make

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<v Speaker 2>me want to settle, No, sir, it had the opposite effect,

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<v Speaker 2>exclamation mark. It made me want to expose you for

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<v Speaker 2>the fraud you are in a very public fashion. So no,

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<v Speaker 2>I will not give you one redpenny. These allegations are

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<v Speaker 2>so heenous in nature that I am iplaw you to

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<v Speaker 2>file a criminal complaint, not a civil one. Whomever would

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<v Speaker 2>commit such a crime against a minor should be locked away.

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<v Speaker 2>Would you not agree these alleged victims would deserve real

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<v Speaker 2>justice if that were the case.

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<v Speaker 1>What did you guys think of this statement?

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<v Speaker 3>I had never seen a celebrity denial like this. This

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<v Speaker 3>was different in a lot of ways. It was such

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<v Speaker 3>a strong denial firstly, but the other thing is that

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<v Speaker 3>not only did it discredit the lawsuit, but it went

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<v Speaker 3>really hard on the lawyer, which you don't often see.

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<v Speaker 3>And there's a reason that he took aim at Buzzby,

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<v Speaker 3>and the reason is that he is known as having

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<v Speaker 3>a really aggressive way of forcing settlements and that can

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<v Speaker 3>be to go to the person privately and reveal and

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<v Speaker 3>he's admitted this, try and put a whole lot of

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<v Speaker 3>embarrassing things out there and kind of go if you

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<v Speaker 3>don't set or we're going to make this public. He

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<v Speaker 3>is really interested in high profile cases. He was involved

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<v Speaker 3>in the Travis Scott Astro world. I think it was

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<v Speaker 3>like a class action suit. Remember that there was a

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<v Speaker 3>concert and there was a crowd surge and members of diect.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, is this something that I have a bit of

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<v Speaker 1>a This is tricky and again many things can be

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<v Speaker 1>true at once, which adds to the complexity of this.

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<v Speaker 1>That doesn't mean his victims aren't real, and it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>mean what happened didn't happen. And yes, also jay Z

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<v Speaker 1>is entitled to the presumption of innocence until he's found

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<v Speaker 1>guilty in a court. All of those things are true,

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<v Speaker 1>and mediation is usually what's recommended before you go to court.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's worth noting though, that this is not

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<v Speaker 3>a Gloria Alred. There are cases where it's a really

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<v Speaker 3>respected lawyer who fights for you know, women's rights, victims rights,

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<v Speaker 3>And again, you're absolutely right. But what's interesting about this

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<v Speaker 3>lawyer is even I was looking at him, he's got

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<v Speaker 3>quite a high profile. He has political aspirations, and on

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<v Speaker 3>his Instagram profile he has like, I've won ten billion

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<v Speaker 3>dollars in damages. So what jay Z is trying to

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<v Speaker 3>say here about money and a civil case as opposed

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<v Speaker 3>to the federal charges that are against Diddy is an

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<v Speaker 3>interesting one. Buzzby has also set up a one eight

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<v Speaker 3>hundred number for people who are accusing Diddy or anyone

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<v Speaker 3>else of particular crimes.

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<v Speaker 2>So they're soliciting for women to come forward, and there

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<v Speaker 2>is some criticism, And now there's argubardi between jay Z's

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<v Speaker 2>high profile lawyer who just was representing Alec Baldwin and

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<v Speaker 2>has represented Elon mask. There's Argubardie now of him saying

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<v Speaker 2>you're literally enticing these women to lie for money. But

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<v Speaker 2>don't you think it's also as Mia says, in fact,

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<v Speaker 2>that the two things can be true. There's the truth

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<v Speaker 2>for money exactly, because this might also be the victims

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<v Speaker 2>of Diddy over many years. This might be their only

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<v Speaker 2>chance to get anything that looks like some kind of

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<v Speaker 2>justice because it's not all going to go through legal court.

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<v Speaker 2>And I mean did he is facing undoubtedly jail time,

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<v Speaker 2>but all of these individual women, the civil route might

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<v Speaker 2>be their only way to get something like.

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<v Speaker 3>And the fact that there are so many women we've

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<v Speaker 3>seen even with Bill Cosby, Like there's power in that

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<v Speaker 3>solidarity with a lot of women coming together and telling

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<v Speaker 3>the same story.

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<v Speaker 1>And also how class actions work.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and like let's not forget as you were saying,

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<v Speaker 3>Holly jay Z is worth two point five billion dollars,

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<v Speaker 3>how do you not take a man like that down?

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<v Speaker 3>But how do you even accuse a man like that

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<v Speaker 3>without the power of someone like this lawyer. So a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of people are kind of going into his backstory

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<v Speaker 3>and looking at some questionable things. And so I understand

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<v Speaker 3>why that was part of the pr strategy to be like,

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<v Speaker 3>not only am I saying I didn't do it, Not

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<v Speaker 3>only am I saying I'm thinking of all victims. But

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<v Speaker 3>if this were true, then why wouldn't you go for

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<v Speaker 3>something bigger than just money? But it's also saying this

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<v Speaker 3>lawyer cannot be trusted.

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<v Speaker 1>There are two ways of looking at that statement that

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<v Speaker 1>Jay Z released, that was very long, that was clearly

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<v Speaker 1>not vetted by PR people because it was full of

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<v Speaker 1>exclamation marks. It did a couple of things. It centered

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<v Speaker 1>his denial, like almost above the accusation, because it meant

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<v Speaker 1>that his denial had to be pretty much published in full.

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<v Speaker 1>He got to say a lot of things in that denial,

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<v Speaker 1>and he got to it could be said, he got

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<v Speaker 1>to smear the lawyer. He got to make accusations of

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<v Speaker 1>his own against the lawyer, and in a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the coverage, as I've read, a lot of media put

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<v Speaker 1>that before the actual charges. So it really did center

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<v Speaker 1>his defense. And there's something called DAVO, which is a

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<v Speaker 1>tactic that's often used by a perpetrator or an alleged perpetrator.

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<v Speaker 1>It stands for deny, attack, reverse victim offender. You deny

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<v Speaker 1>that you did it, you attack someone. If you can't

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<v Speaker 1>attack the victim, you attack the lawyer, and you reverse,

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<v Speaker 1>so you make it seem like you're the victim. So, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I've been attacked. He's coming after me because I've got money.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a blackmail attempt, and suddenly the narrative is

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<v Speaker 1>very different. That's what you would do if it was true,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's what you would also do if it was

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<v Speaker 1>not true.

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<v Speaker 3>Because the thing that I first saw was that jay

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<v Speaker 3>Z had been accused, and that is enormous, enormous news.

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<v Speaker 3>He is one of the most powerful, richest men in America,

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<v Speaker 3>Like that is really really big. But I think that

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<v Speaker 3>the reason why this has been such a big deal

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<v Speaker 3>is because he had actually sued prior to all of

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<v Speaker 3>this coming out, So that had been happening privately.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you mean jay Z had tried to yes, Sue, Yes.

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<v Speaker 3>So that had been happening under the name John Doe. Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>that had been happening behind the scenes. Which brings us

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<v Speaker 3>to Celebrity B. So we knew that there was another celebrity.

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<v Speaker 1>Who is named Celebrity B exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>Which is that there was a woman in the room

0:11:55.487 --> 0:12:01.047
<v Speaker 3>and that has been a point of enormous discussion and

0:12:01.127 --> 0:12:05.967
<v Speaker 3>speculation about who that might be because it's which is awful,

0:12:06.207 --> 0:12:10.367
<v Speaker 3>Which is awful, but I also get it because this

0:12:10.567 --> 0:12:13.767
<v Speaker 3>is to me, this is like a Jeffrey Epstein level

0:12:14.647 --> 0:12:20.127
<v Speaker 3>lifting the lid on this subculture it's like we assume

0:12:20.167 --> 0:12:22.447
<v Speaker 3>the worst of celebrities anyway. These are the most powerful

0:12:22.487 --> 0:12:25.727
<v Speaker 3>people in the world, and the accusations I'm so boring.

0:12:25.887 --> 0:12:27.967
<v Speaker 1>I don't think we assume the worst of all celebrities.

0:12:28.007 --> 0:12:30.607
<v Speaker 1>I don't. But I think if you've been best friends

0:12:30.607 --> 0:12:34.007
<v Speaker 1>with p Diddy for thirty years, when these allegations have

0:12:34.087 --> 0:12:36.887
<v Speaker 1>been widely known within the industry for a really long time,

0:12:37.287 --> 0:12:39.327
<v Speaker 1>and now when you see what the criminal charges are

0:12:39.367 --> 0:12:43.047
<v Speaker 1>against Diddy over decades, and you see what we all

0:12:43.087 --> 0:12:45.727
<v Speaker 1>saw with that footage of him beating up his ex

0:12:45.807 --> 0:12:50.247
<v Speaker 1>girlfriend Cassie, you would have to say there are some

0:12:51.447 --> 0:12:54.567
<v Speaker 1>doubts cast over how much you did or didn't know

0:12:54.887 --> 0:12:55.607
<v Speaker 1>one hundred percent.

0:12:55.647 --> 0:12:58.207
<v Speaker 2>The thing that troubles me about the celebrity b obsession

0:12:58.207 --> 0:13:00.367
<v Speaker 2>and I've heard all the same rumors that everyone listening

0:13:00.367 --> 0:13:02.527
<v Speaker 2>to this I'm sure has heard, and that been circulating

0:13:02.567 --> 0:13:04.887
<v Speaker 2>around the internet, around the office about who that is

0:13:04.927 --> 0:13:07.447
<v Speaker 2>and why that might be and blah blah blah. Is

0:13:07.487 --> 0:13:09.967
<v Speaker 2>that beyond the fact that jay Z, as you say,

0:13:09.967 --> 0:13:12.287
<v Speaker 2>one of the richest most powerful men in America in

0:13:12.367 --> 0:13:15.487
<v Speaker 2>pop culture currency, The fact that he's married to Beyonce

0:13:16.087 --> 0:13:19.247
<v Speaker 2>is as interesting as anything else right. We joke that

0:13:19.287 --> 0:13:21.807
<v Speaker 2>on out loud we like to refer to male celebrities,

0:13:21.807 --> 0:13:24.767
<v Speaker 2>but which women they're married to. So in my mind,

0:13:24.967 --> 0:13:26.927
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think I can't think of any of

0:13:26.927 --> 0:13:29.927
<v Speaker 2>his songs. Well I can because I'll go into that later.

0:13:29.967 --> 0:13:32.727
<v Speaker 2>But he's also missed a Beyonce right and that. So

0:13:32.847 --> 0:13:36.687
<v Speaker 2>this also spins into the celebrity fallout from this, which

0:13:36.847 --> 0:13:40.287
<v Speaker 2>was then immediately on display on this red carpet the

0:13:40.327 --> 0:13:45.167
<v Speaker 2>following day. Because timing is everything, the story got released

0:13:45.247 --> 0:13:49.167
<v Speaker 2>on Monday our time, Sunday their time, and immediately there

0:13:49.207 --> 0:13:53.087
<v Speaker 2>was a whuha because Tina Noles, Beyonce's mum, very famous mum,

0:13:53.447 --> 0:13:57.287
<v Speaker 2>appeared to like a post from a news outlet that

0:13:57.327 --> 0:14:00.447
<v Speaker 2>reported it. So everyone was like, whoa, can we pause

0:14:00.447 --> 0:14:00.687
<v Speaker 2>on that?

0:14:00.727 --> 0:14:02.367
<v Speaker 3>What do we think happened? Because she's come out and

0:14:02.367 --> 0:14:03.127
<v Speaker 3>said she was hacked?

0:14:03.167 --> 0:14:03.567
<v Speaker 1>She and she.

0:14:03.527 --> 0:14:05.687
<v Speaker 2>Immediately said she was hacked, which is a modern classic.

0:14:05.727 --> 0:14:08.367
<v Speaker 2>That's what you do. You like a post by mistake,

0:14:08.407 --> 0:14:10.487
<v Speaker 2>and then you say it wasn't me, I was hacked.

0:14:10.287 --> 0:14:12.207
<v Speaker 3>Because everyone gets hacked just so that someone can like

0:14:12.287 --> 0:14:12.887
<v Speaker 3>random posts.

0:14:12.887 --> 0:14:15.567
<v Speaker 2>But you think it might be more of a boomer issue.

0:14:15.607 --> 0:14:18.847
<v Speaker 3>I do, because at first I went, oh, my goodness,

0:14:18.847 --> 0:14:21.927
<v Speaker 3>this makes him look guilty. This looks like Beyonce's mother

0:14:22.047 --> 0:14:24.167
<v Speaker 3>has been sitting on this for ages, and she's like,

0:14:24.447 --> 0:14:29.447
<v Speaker 3>finally he's been outed. And then I learned a little

0:14:29.487 --> 0:14:33.647
<v Speaker 3>bit about our friend Tina, she's seventy and some of

0:14:33.647 --> 0:14:37.127
<v Speaker 3>her social media behavior, and I went, oh, no, if

0:14:37.167 --> 0:14:40.647
<v Speaker 3>this were my mum, she would absolutely accidentally like this post.

0:14:41.247 --> 0:14:44.447
<v Speaker 3>Not accidentally, she would like it because she thinks it

0:14:44.567 --> 0:14:47.287
<v Speaker 3>means that she's telling people she's seen it. Yeah, so

0:14:47.327 --> 0:14:49.847
<v Speaker 3>it's sort of buying it off as checks I've seen this,

0:14:50.087 --> 0:14:53.407
<v Speaker 3>or I'm sending jay Z love or whoever.

0:14:53.727 --> 0:14:57.287
<v Speaker 1>So to complicate things, and I agreed, is a modern classic.

0:14:57.367 --> 0:15:00.487
<v Speaker 1>I have been hacked. My social media has been hacked

0:15:00.687 --> 0:15:07.207
<v Speaker 1>and someone tweeted something embarrassing about me from my account.

0:15:07.527 --> 0:15:10.207
<v Speaker 1>This is back in the day of Twitter. So look,

0:15:10.287 --> 0:15:11.327
<v Speaker 1>there's plausible deny.

0:15:11.367 --> 0:15:11.967
<v Speaker 2>They already there.

0:15:12.007 --> 0:15:13.927
<v Speaker 1>She could have been hacked, but I don't think it's

0:15:13.967 --> 0:15:15.727
<v Speaker 1>probably more like a hay Boomer situation.

0:15:15.727 --> 0:15:18.407
<v Speaker 2>Tina says, I don't play when it comes to my family,

0:15:18.407 --> 0:15:20.447
<v Speaker 2>which basically she means she doesn't gossip about it. Was

0:15:20.487 --> 0:15:22.767
<v Speaker 2>she doesn't, She says, if you see so if you

0:15:22.807 --> 0:15:24.687
<v Speaker 2>see anything like this from me, No, it wasn't me,

0:15:24.727 --> 0:15:27.247
<v Speaker 2>which is also quite a good cloak. But Mia then

0:15:27.287 --> 0:15:29.847
<v Speaker 2>we come to the Red Carpet because the following day

0:15:30.367 --> 0:15:34.007
<v Speaker 2>one of the biggest holiday movie releases comes out, Mafassa,

0:15:34.087 --> 0:15:37.847
<v Speaker 2>which is a Lion King spinoff, and both Beyonce and

0:15:37.967 --> 0:15:40.647
<v Speaker 2>Her and jay Z's daughter Blue Ivy have roles in

0:15:40.647 --> 0:15:43.567
<v Speaker 2>that movie. They have speaking, singing roles in that movie.

0:15:43.807 --> 0:15:46.967
<v Speaker 2>So the Red Carpet, they're there, and does jay Z

0:15:47.127 --> 0:15:49.767
<v Speaker 2>go the day after he has been accused of a

0:15:49.807 --> 0:15:53.127
<v Speaker 2>Heenus crime and vehemently denied it. Of course he does, Maya,

0:15:53.167 --> 0:15:53.967
<v Speaker 2>what was that about?

0:15:54.127 --> 0:15:56.487
<v Speaker 1>That is a rich text if you watch the coverage

0:15:56.607 --> 0:15:58.727
<v Speaker 1>of that Red carpet, It is a rich text for

0:15:58.807 --> 0:16:01.407
<v Speaker 1>so many reasons. Blue Ivy has a starring role in

0:16:01.447 --> 0:16:05.287
<v Speaker 1>this movie, Mafasa. It's a sort of sequel to The

0:16:05.327 --> 0:16:07.887
<v Speaker 1>Lion King, and she plays the daughter of I think

0:16:08.047 --> 0:16:11.607
<v Speaker 1>Nala and Simp. So this was her time to shine.

0:16:11.647 --> 0:16:14.287
<v Speaker 1>This is her moment. This is kind of like Apple

0:16:14.367 --> 0:16:17.167
<v Speaker 1>Martin at the Debutante Ball, except she actually did a

0:16:17.167 --> 0:16:19.927
<v Speaker 1>thing instead of just wearing a dress and turning up.

0:16:20.527 --> 0:16:26.327
<v Speaker 1>She's twelve and she's wearing this incredible gold princess gown.

0:16:26.567 --> 0:16:29.887
<v Speaker 1>She looks incredible, she's very tall. And the reason it's

0:16:29.927 --> 0:16:32.367
<v Speaker 1>such a rich text. Before jay Z even arrives on

0:16:32.407 --> 0:16:36.567
<v Speaker 1>the red carpet is that usually Beyonce doesn't do red carpets.

0:16:36.647 --> 0:16:39.727
<v Speaker 1>She usually has her own paparazzi photographer. She comes either

0:16:39.807 --> 0:16:43.207
<v Speaker 1>right at the end, her photographer takes photos and releases them,

0:16:43.247 --> 0:16:45.687
<v Speaker 1>and she doesn't pose next to anyone. She's very, very

0:16:45.727 --> 0:16:48.367
<v Speaker 1>particular about what she does. She's earned that right. But

0:16:49.447 --> 0:16:52.527
<v Speaker 1>as any mother of a tween or teen daughter will

0:16:52.567 --> 0:16:55.207
<v Speaker 1>recognize the body language. If you watch the not just

0:16:55.247 --> 0:16:58.367
<v Speaker 1>the still photos, but the footage of this blue Ivy's

0:16:58.407 --> 0:17:00.727
<v Speaker 1>on the red carpet on her own, looking amazing, and

0:17:00.767 --> 0:17:06.487
<v Speaker 1>then Beyonce like apologetically scurries just to stand next to her.

0:17:06.487 --> 0:17:08.527
<v Speaker 1>She's in a much smaller dress so as not to

0:17:08.607 --> 0:17:12.007
<v Speaker 1>upstage her. She looks super proud. But there's all of that,

0:17:12.127 --> 0:17:15.247
<v Speaker 1>and then jay Z arrives and when you look at

0:17:15.367 --> 0:17:21.127
<v Speaker 1>the rictus grin on Beyonce's face, she's at work, she's

0:17:21.207 --> 0:17:23.527
<v Speaker 1>supporting her daughter, she's doing what she needs to do.

0:17:24.487 --> 0:17:27.927
<v Speaker 1>She looks like I can't even explain how she looks,

0:17:28.007 --> 0:17:30.207
<v Speaker 1>and then jay Z's trying to be like cool and

0:17:30.247 --> 0:17:31.927
<v Speaker 1>they're all trying to be like yep, we're just a

0:17:31.927 --> 0:17:33.807
<v Speaker 1>happy family. Nothing to see here.

0:17:33.967 --> 0:17:36.207
<v Speaker 2>There's a world in which he didn't go to that right, Like,

0:17:36.407 --> 0:17:38.807
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it would have been given what had just happened,

0:17:38.847 --> 0:17:42.167
<v Speaker 2>but I suppose that maybe given also that he's come

0:17:42.167 --> 0:17:44.807
<v Speaker 2>out swinging so hard, it was very important that he

0:17:44.927 --> 0:17:45.287
<v Speaker 2>was there.

0:17:45.447 --> 0:17:48.407
<v Speaker 1>There's a world in which the publicist for that movie,

0:17:48.527 --> 0:17:52.247
<v Speaker 1>the poor publicist for that movie, got her wish or

0:17:52.247 --> 0:17:55.607
<v Speaker 1>his wish, And yeah, jay Z wasn't on that carpet,

0:17:55.647 --> 0:17:58.327
<v Speaker 1>but it was a very again a rich text. It

0:17:58.487 --> 0:18:02.887
<v Speaker 1>was giving everybody a very big message that beyonces behind him,

0:18:02.967 --> 0:18:05.407
<v Speaker 1>Blue Ivy is behind him. They have nothing to hide,

0:18:05.447 --> 0:18:06.847
<v Speaker 1>they have nothing to be ashamed of.

0:18:06.967 --> 0:18:09.167
<v Speaker 3>And that that and this is what his statement was about,

0:18:09.567 --> 0:18:12.247
<v Speaker 3>that his family the victims here, that he has had

0:18:12.247 --> 0:18:14.607
<v Speaker 3>to sit down with his children, as he said.

0:18:14.487 --> 0:18:17.087
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he mentioned Blue Ivy not by name, but one

0:18:17.127 --> 0:18:19.327
<v Speaker 1>of my daughters is old enough that was clearly Blue Ivy.

0:18:19.367 --> 0:18:22.647
<v Speaker 1>I mean he put her in there. Yeah, So it

0:18:22.767 --> 0:18:26.167
<v Speaker 1>was again plausible if you've been accused of something that

0:18:26.247 --> 0:18:28.527
<v Speaker 1>you didn't do. But it is also an example of

0:18:28.607 --> 0:18:30.967
<v Speaker 1>Davo h when the real victim here is Blue Ivy

0:18:31.007 --> 0:18:34.447
<v Speaker 1>who's going to have her premiere ruined, and my family

0:18:34.607 --> 0:18:36.767
<v Speaker 1>and me, and then Tina Noles was also on the

0:18:36.807 --> 0:18:39.647
<v Speaker 1>red carpet, like you could, honestly, they could write dissertations

0:18:39.687 --> 0:18:40.687
<v Speaker 1>about this red carpet.

0:18:40.767 --> 0:18:43.967
<v Speaker 2>And the real victim, obviously is the alleged victim.

0:18:44.127 --> 0:18:47.247
<v Speaker 3>And the optics of jay Z there to support his

0:18:47.287 --> 0:18:50.687
<v Speaker 3>twelve year old daughter in this role when the alleged

0:18:50.767 --> 0:18:53.967
<v Speaker 3>victim in this case was thirteen like a child, I

0:18:53.967 --> 0:18:56.567
<v Speaker 3>think is startling.

0:18:56.847 --> 0:18:59.087
<v Speaker 2>There's something I can't stop thinking about. Right, There's a

0:18:59.087 --> 0:19:01.367
<v Speaker 2>song by jay Z called four forty four, which my

0:19:01.447 --> 0:19:03.167
<v Speaker 2>daughter plays in the car all the time because my

0:19:03.207 --> 0:19:05.327
<v Speaker 2>daughter's really interrupt music. I don't know why she just is.

0:19:05.687 --> 0:19:08.647
<v Speaker 2>And I obsess over this song because it's all about

0:19:08.687 --> 0:19:11.447
<v Speaker 2>what a shit he's been, and it's an open letter

0:19:11.447 --> 0:19:14.447
<v Speaker 2>to Beyonce this song, right. It was released in twenty seventeen,

0:19:14.607 --> 0:19:17.487
<v Speaker 2>after Lemonade, After Lemonade, after she released her album about

0:19:17.527 --> 0:19:19.927
<v Speaker 2>what a shit husband he was, he then released his

0:19:19.927 --> 0:19:22.687
<v Speaker 2>own but in it some of the lyrics are.

0:19:23.287 --> 0:19:27.247
<v Speaker 3>And if my children known, I don't even know what

0:19:27.407 --> 0:19:29.847
<v Speaker 3>I would do a thing look at me to.

0:19:29.887 --> 0:19:33.927
<v Speaker 2>Say, I will probably die with all the Shane. My

0:19:34.007 --> 0:19:36.687
<v Speaker 2>heart breaks for the day I have explained my mistakes

0:19:37.367 --> 0:19:38.927
<v Speaker 2>and the mask goes away.

0:19:39.087 --> 0:19:40.287
<v Speaker 1>With Becky with the good hair.

0:19:40.847 --> 0:19:43.727
<v Speaker 3>I't think so, do you know what about something else?

0:19:44.007 --> 0:19:47.007
<v Speaker 3>Because people might remember as well. We did an episode

0:19:47.007 --> 0:19:50.007
<v Speaker 3>of Canceled recently on Beyonce. It was tongue in cheek

0:19:50.007 --> 0:19:52.847
<v Speaker 3>and about a lot of the conspiracy theories, but of

0:19:52.967 --> 0:19:57.447
<v Speaker 3>course the lift incident with Solange. So they were in

0:19:57.527 --> 0:20:00.927
<v Speaker 3>an elevator leaving the met Gala, leaving the met Gala,

0:20:01.007 --> 0:20:03.247
<v Speaker 3>and I think he spoke to someone at the met

0:20:03.247 --> 0:20:06.407
<v Speaker 3>Galla and they think that something went off. Bet Solange

0:20:06.727 --> 0:20:09.967
<v Speaker 3>physically attacked him in an elevator. And what was most

0:20:10.047 --> 0:20:12.007
<v Speaker 3>interesting to a lot of people was that Beyonce was

0:20:12.007 --> 0:20:15.167
<v Speaker 3>in the elevator in the corner and didn't interrupt.

0:20:14.767 --> 0:20:16.967
<v Speaker 1>Didn't she just stood there and he also took it.

0:20:17.447 --> 0:20:20.447
<v Speaker 1>What I didn't realize also reading about this, is that

0:20:20.567 --> 0:20:24.167
<v Speaker 1>he's a fair amount older than her. There's photos going

0:20:24.207 --> 0:20:27.207
<v Speaker 1>around of him when he was twenty eight with a

0:20:27.207 --> 0:20:29.967
<v Speaker 1>whole lot of other dudes that were at a Destiny's

0:20:30.007 --> 0:20:33.087
<v Speaker 1>Child concert and she was sixteen. The story that they

0:20:33.127 --> 0:20:35.487
<v Speaker 1>tell is that they met when she was eighteen, and

0:20:35.527 --> 0:20:37.247
<v Speaker 1>they were just friends for a year and a half,

0:20:37.287 --> 0:20:39.687
<v Speaker 1>and they only started dating when she was nineteen. I

0:20:39.767 --> 0:20:42.247
<v Speaker 1>don't know how many thirty year olds want to be

0:20:42.647 --> 0:20:46.287
<v Speaker 1>friends with eighteen year old hot young women. But anyway,

0:20:46.447 --> 0:20:48.807
<v Speaker 1>I didn't realize that she had been with him since

0:20:48.847 --> 0:20:51.567
<v Speaker 1>she was nineteen. She have her entire adult life, She's

0:20:51.647 --> 0:20:53.447
<v Speaker 1>never really had any other boyfriends.

0:20:53.527 --> 0:20:55.927
<v Speaker 2>And that's what that song is about. And he talks

0:20:55.967 --> 0:20:58.767
<v Speaker 2>in it about mena jatoires and all the things that, like,

0:20:58.847 --> 0:21:01.287
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of shit has gone on in that

0:21:01.527 --> 0:21:02.127
<v Speaker 2>life and that.

0:21:02.127 --> 0:21:07.127
<v Speaker 3>Relationship in a moment, Can you copyright a vibe? One

0:21:07.167 --> 0:21:09.727
<v Speaker 3>influencer seems to think so, and to tell you all

0:21:09.767 --> 0:21:17.607
<v Speaker 3>about it after the break? Can you copyright a vibe?

0:21:17.847 --> 0:21:21.207
<v Speaker 3>Sandra E Garcia wrote a very thought provoking piece in

0:21:21.247 --> 0:21:24.567
<v Speaker 3>The New York Times this week all about a lifestyle

0:21:24.647 --> 0:21:29.287
<v Speaker 3>influencer named Sidney Gifford. Gifford lives in Minnesota, and she

0:21:29.407 --> 0:21:32.607
<v Speaker 3>posts about her home and fashion. And if you scroll

0:21:32.687 --> 0:21:35.527
<v Speaker 3>through her Instagram account, which has more than three hundred

0:21:35.567 --> 0:21:39.927
<v Speaker 3>thousand followers, you'll find reels of white and beige. Home

0:21:39.967 --> 0:21:44.087
<v Speaker 3>wears white and beige clothes, white and beige shoes. I'm

0:21:44.087 --> 0:21:47.447
<v Speaker 3>not being snarky. That is literally her aesthetics.

0:21:47.327 --> 0:21:49.767
<v Speaker 2>Talk on Monday, didn't we about how color has disappeared,

0:21:49.847 --> 0:21:52.007
<v Speaker 2>particularly from homes? And that sounds that's her.

0:21:52.247 --> 0:21:53.847
<v Speaker 1>You know you call it a neutral palette.

0:21:53.927 --> 0:21:56.327
<v Speaker 3>Yes, she is all neutral palette. Every now and then

0:21:56.327 --> 0:21:58.927
<v Speaker 3>she does a jewelry flat lay. But she has a

0:21:59.007 --> 0:22:03.207
<v Speaker 3>very clear and intentional look. But then something strange happened

0:22:03.367 --> 0:22:06.287
<v Speaker 3>to Gifford. So a photo popped up and it was

0:22:06.327 --> 0:22:11.367
<v Speaker 3>published by another influencer named Alyssa. Sheel Strangely, she actually

0:22:11.407 --> 0:22:14.007
<v Speaker 3>knew Alyssa. They had met up, I think a year

0:22:14.127 --> 0:22:16.807
<v Speaker 3>or two before to do you know how influences sometimes

0:22:16.807 --> 0:22:19.087
<v Speaker 3>get together and gone make content. Anyway, they'd gone and

0:22:19.127 --> 0:22:20.647
<v Speaker 3>done that. Apparently it was a bit awkward. It was

0:22:20.647 --> 0:22:23.727
<v Speaker 3>a bit weird, and Alyssa had blocked her and gone

0:22:23.847 --> 0:22:26.687
<v Speaker 3>their separate ways. But a friend then sends her Alyssa's

0:22:26.687 --> 0:22:29.767
<v Speaker 3>content and says, this is identical to yours. And she

0:22:30.247 --> 0:22:35.407
<v Speaker 3>is struck by a post by Shiel where there's an

0:22:35.447 --> 0:22:39.487
<v Speaker 3>oversized beige cable nit sweater. She has her hair parted

0:22:39.607 --> 0:22:42.527
<v Speaker 3>in exactly the same way in the center her pose

0:22:42.607 --> 0:22:46.127
<v Speaker 3>is identical, and Gifford is like foot forward, Yes, a

0:22:46.447 --> 0:22:50.647
<v Speaker 3>jutted out hip. And she she's saying, this is identical

0:22:50.687 --> 0:22:53.767
<v Speaker 3>to something I posted a few days ago. She claims

0:22:53.807 --> 0:22:57.527
<v Speaker 3>that Shiel had been mimicking her online persona and appropriating

0:22:57.687 --> 0:23:01.207
<v Speaker 3>her look, her natural beige cream aesthetic. She was using

0:23:01.207 --> 0:23:04.087
<v Speaker 3>the same fonts, she was using the same camera angles,

0:23:04.127 --> 0:23:07.047
<v Speaker 3>and she even replicated her haircut and apartment. And this

0:23:07.127 --> 0:23:09.687
<v Speaker 3>one did get me. She got the same tattoo on

0:23:09.727 --> 0:23:11.887
<v Speaker 3>the same spot on her byfap.

0:23:12.487 --> 0:23:13.327
<v Speaker 2>Taking the piss.

0:23:13.647 --> 0:23:15.527
<v Speaker 1>It was on her side until just now.

0:23:15.567 --> 0:23:17.847
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's like a flower tattoo and like she died

0:23:17.847 --> 0:23:18.407
<v Speaker 3>her hair and stuff.

0:23:18.407 --> 0:23:21.047
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, she says, single white female. Yeah.

0:23:21.207 --> 0:23:24.407
<v Speaker 3>She says that the imitation is costing her money. And

0:23:24.407 --> 0:23:26.967
<v Speaker 3>this is interesting because she spends a lot of time

0:23:27.047 --> 0:23:32.087
<v Speaker 3>curating her Amazon storefront. So basically she buys a lot

0:23:32.127 --> 0:23:35.647
<v Speaker 3>of homewares, say, and then she markets those products to

0:23:36.167 --> 0:23:39.527
<v Speaker 3>her audience. So it's an affiliate link. Yeah, it's an

0:23:39.527 --> 0:23:41.647
<v Speaker 3>affiliate link, so people might not understand what that means.

0:23:41.647 --> 0:23:43.647
<v Speaker 1>So if you like my shorts, click on this link

0:23:43.647 --> 0:23:45.807
<v Speaker 1>to buy them, and then she gets a little percentage

0:23:45.847 --> 0:23:48.527
<v Speaker 1>of the cost of the shorts if you do buy them.

0:23:48.727 --> 0:23:51.647
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so what giff That is doing is seeking up

0:23:51.647 --> 0:23:54.207
<v Speaker 3>to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in damages for

0:23:54.367 --> 0:23:58.687
<v Speaker 3>lost income and mental anguish. Why I'm finding this case

0:23:58.727 --> 0:24:01.487
<v Speaker 3>interesting is because, as The New York Times puts it,

0:24:01.487 --> 0:24:06.287
<v Speaker 3>it gets to the heart of social media influence. Garcia writes,

0:24:06.527 --> 0:24:09.927
<v Speaker 3>the very nature of successful trendsetting requires there's some degree

0:24:09.927 --> 0:24:12.767
<v Speaker 3>of replication, and depending on what comes of the lawsuit,

0:24:13.127 --> 0:24:16.287
<v Speaker 3>it could set an important precedent for influencers and how

0:24:16.327 --> 0:24:21.447
<v Speaker 3>they present themselves online. Maya, can you copyright a vibe?

0:24:21.807 --> 0:24:24.927
<v Speaker 3>Or is social media just constant replication? Isn't that what

0:24:24.967 --> 0:24:26.567
<v Speaker 3>social media is copying each other?

0:24:26.927 --> 0:24:30.687
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's what trends are. That's how algorithms work. That's

0:24:30.807 --> 0:24:34.127
<v Speaker 1>how you get fed more and more of what you like.

0:24:34.687 --> 0:24:37.767
<v Speaker 1>And I don't know. Some people have a really strong

0:24:37.807 --> 0:24:41.767
<v Speaker 1>sense of their own style. I'm very porous when it

0:24:41.807 --> 0:24:44.847
<v Speaker 1>comes to my style. Whoever I'm sort of looking at,

0:24:45.047 --> 0:24:46.927
<v Speaker 1>I will start to emulate them. You know how some

0:24:46.967 --> 0:24:50.087
<v Speaker 1>people will talk in accents when they're in other countries,

0:24:50.767 --> 0:24:53.607
<v Speaker 1>and some people say that's really affected, But I do

0:24:53.687 --> 0:24:57.647
<v Speaker 1>it subconsciously. I've said before when I was hanging around Asher,

0:24:57.687 --> 0:25:01.327
<v Speaker 1>and on the set of Strife, I started dressing like

0:25:01.407 --> 0:25:04.447
<v Speaker 1>Asher and Ash's character Evelyn in Strife, which was like

0:25:04.527 --> 0:25:09.007
<v Speaker 1>suits and sneakers, and that was a particular aesthetic I suppose,

0:25:09.487 --> 0:25:11.607
<v Speaker 1>like with Trinny, I was wearing I love always won

0:25:11.647 --> 0:25:14.567
<v Speaker 1>a lot of sequence. But I'm very influenced now. Addressed

0:25:14.607 --> 0:25:17.207
<v Speaker 1>like a kind of an eccentric grandpa is my vibe.

0:25:17.247 --> 0:25:20.607
<v Speaker 1>It's sort of a Copenhagen style. Why hagen Hagen, I

0:25:20.607 --> 0:25:21.487
<v Speaker 1>don't know how you say it.

0:25:21.487 --> 0:25:25.927
<v Speaker 3>Am in Gifford's defense though, right the Amazon storefront thing

0:25:26.647 --> 0:25:31.007
<v Speaker 3>is a limited market. If you both share a picture

0:25:31.047 --> 0:25:33.207
<v Speaker 3>of the same white T shirt and I'm going to

0:25:33.247 --> 0:25:36.887
<v Speaker 3>affiliate link by one of them, then there is only

0:25:36.967 --> 0:25:38.807
<v Speaker 3>room for so many of you. So if I buy

0:25:38.847 --> 0:25:42.047
<v Speaker 3>Hollies and not yours, then I've cost you money.

0:25:42.087 --> 0:25:44.527
<v Speaker 1>But it's like a hall of mirrors because if the

0:25:44.567 --> 0:25:49.087
<v Speaker 1>point of influence is to monetize that influence by people

0:25:49.167 --> 0:25:53.007
<v Speaker 1>copying whatever it is that you are wearing, what you've bought,

0:25:53.087 --> 0:25:57.087
<v Speaker 1>what you're doing, then of course you're going to have

0:25:57.127 --> 0:26:00.167
<v Speaker 1>lots of little clones out there who are then going

0:26:00.247 --> 0:26:02.327
<v Speaker 1>to market to their It's like kind of like a

0:26:02.327 --> 0:26:04.967
<v Speaker 1>pyramid scheme. I guess in a way, that's what influencing

0:26:05.167 --> 0:26:06.167
<v Speaker 1>is one hundred percent.

0:26:06.207 --> 0:26:07.687
<v Speaker 2>I was going to say, isn't that the whole point

0:26:07.767 --> 0:26:10.567
<v Speaker 2>of influencer is that you're like, you see somebody's lovely

0:26:10.607 --> 0:26:12.647
<v Speaker 2>beije home and you go, well, I'm about to decorate.

0:26:12.687 --> 0:26:14.447
<v Speaker 2>I think I'll decorate like that. I mean, that's the

0:26:14.647 --> 0:26:15.567
<v Speaker 2>point of it.

0:26:16.047 --> 0:26:19.287
<v Speaker 3>I think too that Amazon. I read this article. It

0:26:19.367 --> 0:26:21.847
<v Speaker 3>was in The Verge by Mia Sato, and it went

0:26:21.927 --> 0:26:25.207
<v Speaker 3>into how a lot of these Amazon storefront things work,

0:26:25.727 --> 0:26:29.807
<v Speaker 3>and Amazon actually tells influencers what they want you to promote.

0:26:29.967 --> 0:26:33.047
<v Speaker 3>So the fact that every influencer you follow is telling

0:26:33.047 --> 0:26:38.447
<v Speaker 3>you to buy the same Bucle armchair is not a coincidence.

0:26:38.567 --> 0:26:41.327
<v Speaker 3>It's because Amazon is saying, let's put this in front

0:26:41.327 --> 0:26:43.007
<v Speaker 3>of you, so it's less.

0:26:43.007 --> 0:26:45.687
<v Speaker 1>I've got a lot of bucle armchairs to clear. I've

0:26:45.727 --> 0:26:48.847
<v Speaker 1>set up a storefront because people were like, where can

0:26:48.887 --> 0:26:50.407
<v Speaker 1>I get this? Where can I get that? Except I

0:26:50.407 --> 0:26:51.967
<v Speaker 1>don't know how to I have worked out how to

0:26:52.047 --> 0:26:52.367
<v Speaker 1>use it.

0:26:52.447 --> 0:26:55.367
<v Speaker 2>You need to trademark. I fell into a dressing up box,

0:26:55.407 --> 0:26:57.807
<v Speaker 2>had three martinis and all that. Because that's kind of

0:26:57.807 --> 0:27:00.447
<v Speaker 2>your vibe. I'd like if I wonder if you could

0:27:00.487 --> 0:27:00.767
<v Speaker 2>do that.

0:27:00.887 --> 0:27:03.127
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm also.

0:27:02.887 --> 0:27:05.127
<v Speaker 1>Curious, Like I've got these yellow shoes that you guys

0:27:05.167 --> 0:27:07.447
<v Speaker 1>just absolutely hate. Now I kind of use my social

0:27:07.487 --> 0:27:10.367
<v Speaker 1>media to trol my audience, which is like I know

0:27:10.447 --> 0:27:12.527
<v Speaker 1>that people are just going to hate these, and I'm

0:27:12.567 --> 0:27:15.167
<v Speaker 1>interested to see if anyone would buy them. You know,

0:27:15.247 --> 0:27:19.687
<v Speaker 1>this is how people are making income by doing these

0:27:19.727 --> 0:27:22.087
<v Speaker 1>affiliate marketing. Like you've seen all these gift guides that

0:27:22.127 --> 0:27:25.607
<v Speaker 1>we've just been inundated with every single person who's doing

0:27:25.607 --> 0:27:26.087
<v Speaker 1>a gift gide.

0:27:26.127 --> 0:27:29.567
<v Speaker 2>I did one last week. That's all getting any affiliate.

0:27:29.247 --> 0:27:33.007
<v Speaker 1>Well, they're you stupid. So for most people that's affiliate marketing,

0:27:33.047 --> 0:27:35.087
<v Speaker 1>and maybe you can get some And why not, Like

0:27:35.087 --> 0:27:37.527
<v Speaker 1>if you're telling people to go and buy this sofa

0:27:37.767 --> 0:27:40.687
<v Speaker 1>and someone does, and you're sending people that way, why

0:27:40.687 --> 0:27:42.607
<v Speaker 1>shouldn't you get a little bit of it? Okay, but

0:27:42.927 --> 0:27:45.727
<v Speaker 1>to neutrals and how you trademark them and one foot

0:27:45.727 --> 0:27:47.687
<v Speaker 1>in front of the other. Yes, I mean I don't

0:27:47.727 --> 0:27:50.087
<v Speaker 1>know what's influence and what single white female. So back

0:27:50.087 --> 0:27:52.967
<v Speaker 1>to the vibe, right, It's like, so if you do

0:27:53.207 --> 0:27:56.007
<v Speaker 1>genuinely believe you were one of the early adopters of

0:27:56.647 --> 0:27:59.567
<v Speaker 1>a look or a style of writing, or a style

0:27:59.647 --> 0:28:01.687
<v Speaker 1>of you know, I mean, I remember that in the

0:28:01.767 --> 0:28:03.447
<v Speaker 1>early days of Mom and mea there was a very

0:28:03.447 --> 0:28:07.487
<v Speaker 1>distinctive Internet voice that then everybody started writing in and

0:28:07.607 --> 0:28:09.887
<v Speaker 1>you know that happens all the time, and there are

0:28:10.407 --> 0:28:13.207
<v Speaker 1>there's a language of the Internet. There's a language of TikTok,

0:28:13.247 --> 0:28:16.367
<v Speaker 1>there's a language of that. Everybody then picks up and

0:28:16.407 --> 0:28:19.047
<v Speaker 1>goes with the very first person who ever said it.

0:28:19.527 --> 0:28:22.127
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's very hard to pick, right. So the

0:28:22.127 --> 0:28:25.767
<v Speaker 1>idea of a vibe is interesting because she's right, like

0:28:25.807 --> 0:28:28.167
<v Speaker 1>if that was very much her distinctive thing, and she's

0:28:28.247 --> 0:28:32.407
<v Speaker 1>like neutral cell, groundbreaking. I I the first person who ever.

0:28:32.247 --> 0:28:34.887
<v Speaker 2>Put a beige couch on a grage run. They're like,

0:28:35.447 --> 0:28:39.207
<v Speaker 2>that is hard to gatekeep. But there's something we're going

0:28:39.247 --> 0:28:41.047
<v Speaker 2>on with the tattoo, That's all I've got to say.

0:28:41.207 --> 0:28:44.327
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And this journalist who went and visited them both

0:28:44.447 --> 0:28:46.927
<v Speaker 3>said it was like walking into the same home. She

0:28:47.007 --> 0:28:49.487
<v Speaker 3>walked into the same home, but then she said, I

0:28:49.527 --> 0:28:51.767
<v Speaker 3>think we're all living in the same home. Yeah, Which

0:28:51.807 --> 0:28:55.647
<v Speaker 3>is your point, Holly from Monday, which is that algorithms

0:28:55.647 --> 0:28:59.127
<v Speaker 3>have flattened our culture so much that we all just

0:28:59.167 --> 0:29:04.687
<v Speaker 3>are kind of constantly replicating each other because it's being projected, and.

0:29:04.647 --> 0:29:06.847
<v Speaker 1>You often don't even realize why you do. It's like,

0:29:06.847 --> 0:29:08.567
<v Speaker 1>there's a reason why the first time you see baro

0:29:08.687 --> 0:29:10.927
<v Speaker 1>jeans you go uh yuck, the second time you go

0:29:11.047 --> 0:29:14.487
<v Speaker 1>uh yuck, the hundredth time you go oh, and then

0:29:14.567 --> 0:29:17.087
<v Speaker 1>the one hundred and fiftieth time you're like, I need some

0:29:17.127 --> 0:29:19.127
<v Speaker 1>barrel leg jeans. Like that's how trends work.

0:29:19.247 --> 0:29:22.207
<v Speaker 3>Yes, but I suppose I'm thinking about the art of

0:29:22.247 --> 0:29:26.527
<v Speaker 3>it all right. Like copyright when it comes to writers

0:29:26.567 --> 0:29:31.127
<v Speaker 3>and artists and fashion designers is massive, and it's something

0:29:31.167 --> 0:29:34.687
<v Speaker 3>that is really complicated because it's you don't really trademark

0:29:35.287 --> 0:29:39.207
<v Speaker 3>an idea. What you can trademark is very specific.

0:29:39.487 --> 0:29:42.167
<v Speaker 1>West always saying magazines, you can't copyright an idea because

0:29:42.607 --> 0:29:46.327
<v Speaker 1>women's magazines essentially would recycle the same stories among each

0:29:46.327 --> 0:29:50.047
<v Speaker 1>other and among themselves again and again and again. It's like, Oh,

0:29:50.087 --> 0:29:51.807
<v Speaker 1>it's September, it's the hair book.

0:29:51.767 --> 0:29:55.767
<v Speaker 3>And you're constantly influenced by lots of things. Oh, this

0:29:55.807 --> 0:29:57.647
<v Speaker 3>is going well on this website, and this idea is

0:29:57.687 --> 0:29:59.767
<v Speaker 3>going well, and we'll grab that, and every news site

0:29:59.807 --> 0:30:04.327
<v Speaker 3>is writing around a TikTok, and in academia, your footnote,

0:30:04.367 --> 0:30:06.647
<v Speaker 3>you're constantly referencing where something has come from.

0:30:06.687 --> 0:30:08.807
<v Speaker 1>So on Internet culture, I once did a thing where

0:30:08.887 --> 0:30:12.327
<v Speaker 1>I incidentally I didn't realize obviously it had gone into

0:30:12.327 --> 0:30:16.567
<v Speaker 1>my subconscious I did a thing of like a Celeste Barber,

0:30:16.567 --> 0:30:18.167
<v Speaker 1>you know how she has a celebrity photo and then

0:30:18.207 --> 0:30:20.127
<v Speaker 1>she does her version of it, and I thought, oh,

0:30:20.167 --> 0:30:21.607
<v Speaker 1>there was this photo of Jal and I thought I

0:30:21.647 --> 0:30:23.687
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't it be funny if I did my version of it?

0:30:24.167 --> 0:30:26.247
<v Speaker 1>And then a lot of people in the comments were

0:30:26.327 --> 0:30:28.607
<v Speaker 1>like tagged celest barbera and I was like, oh shit.

0:30:28.647 --> 0:30:29.967
<v Speaker 1>And what you've got to do is you've got to

0:30:29.967 --> 0:30:33.087
<v Speaker 1>say ht, which is hat tip yes at Celest Barber.

0:30:33.247 --> 0:30:35.327
<v Speaker 1>So that's the Internet equivalent of footnotes.

0:30:35.487 --> 0:30:39.207
<v Speaker 3>Yes, but broadly that has been entirely lost. I always

0:30:39.247 --> 0:30:42.047
<v Speaker 3>see and I think that TikTok has a lot to

0:30:42.087 --> 0:30:45.447
<v Speaker 3>answer for in this is that replication, trend setting, even

0:30:45.487 --> 0:30:47.047
<v Speaker 3>templates is the aim of the game.

0:30:47.127 --> 0:30:48.527
<v Speaker 1>It's not a floor, it's a feature.

0:30:48.607 --> 0:30:51.567
<v Speaker 3>It's a feature. And I think there's something really depressing

0:30:51.567 --> 0:30:53.527
<v Speaker 3>about that that I see a comedy video. I saw

0:30:53.527 --> 0:30:55.007
<v Speaker 3>a comedy video the other day and I went, oh,

0:30:55.087 --> 0:30:57.807
<v Speaker 3>that's funny, and then I realized that that was an

0:30:57.847 --> 0:30:59.967
<v Speaker 3>exact replica of the comedy video that was made two

0:31:00.007 --> 0:31:02.527
<v Speaker 3>weeks ago by this creator who probably got half as

0:31:02.567 --> 0:31:05.727
<v Speaker 3>many views. But the irony of all of this, the

0:31:05.767 --> 0:31:08.767
<v Speaker 3>irony of the influencer coming out and saying, you copied

0:31:08.807 --> 0:31:12.207
<v Speaker 3>me replica, blah blah blah, is that you know that

0:31:12.607 --> 0:31:16.687
<v Speaker 3>buckle armchair that you are saying, I am the custodian

0:31:16.727 --> 0:31:19.807
<v Speaker 3>of Do you realize that that is a replica of

0:31:19.887 --> 0:31:23.607
<v Speaker 3>a much more expensive design, like everything on a lot

0:31:23.647 --> 0:31:26.687
<v Speaker 3>of these websites is. And this is the problem with

0:31:26.767 --> 0:31:30.607
<v Speaker 3>all design. Any designer will say this that someone put

0:31:30.847 --> 0:31:34.567
<v Speaker 3>all this effort into creating this incredible vision and then

0:31:34.607 --> 0:31:39.007
<v Speaker 3>somewhere really cheap, really unsustainably made that piece of furniture

0:31:39.047 --> 0:31:41.487
<v Speaker 3>so that everyone could buy it. And that's kind of

0:31:41.527 --> 0:31:45.327
<v Speaker 3>where art design creativity. That's why it's dying.

0:31:45.727 --> 0:31:48.727
<v Speaker 2>All roads lead back to Meryl Streep in Devil Wears

0:31:48.727 --> 0:31:52.367
<v Speaker 2>Proda when she says that about that jumper, doesn't.

0:31:52.007 --> 0:31:55.007
<v Speaker 4>She Okay, I see you think this has nothing to

0:31:55.047 --> 0:32:00.407
<v Speaker 4>do with you. You go to your closet and you

0:32:00.447 --> 0:32:03.687
<v Speaker 4>select I don't know that lumpy blue sweater, for instance,

0:32:03.767 --> 0:32:06.287
<v Speaker 4>because you're trying to tell the world that you take

0:32:06.327 --> 0:32:08.567
<v Speaker 4>yourself too seriously to care about what you put on

0:32:08.607 --> 0:32:11.647
<v Speaker 4>your back. What you don't know is that that sweater is.

0:32:11.567 --> 0:32:12.607
<v Speaker 1>Not just blue.

0:32:12.727 --> 0:32:16.727
<v Speaker 4>It's not to her quoise, it's not lapis, it's actually ceruleum.

0:32:19.207 --> 0:32:24.727
<v Speaker 2>W was past. It's the end of an era, but

0:32:24.927 --> 0:32:27.727
<v Speaker 2>the start of an a singing.

0:32:28.447 --> 0:32:31.087
<v Speaker 1>The Eras tour ended on Monday. Guys, did you notice

0:32:31.327 --> 0:32:33.967
<v Speaker 1>no big surprises or announcements in the final show. I

0:32:34.087 --> 0:32:37.087
<v Speaker 1>thought maybe she'd announced that she was pregnant.

0:32:37.127 --> 0:32:39.167
<v Speaker 2>Why would she do that? That is the most untailed

0:32:39.207 --> 0:32:40.447
<v Speaker 2>Swift thing that she could do.

0:32:40.567 --> 0:32:41.567
<v Speaker 1>It was my fan fiction.

0:32:41.727 --> 0:32:43.927
<v Speaker 2>If she's pregnant, I reckon, she'll never tell us. I

0:32:44.047 --> 0:32:46.967
<v Speaker 2>was like, I'm having this baby, Yes I am.

0:32:47.527 --> 0:32:50.007
<v Speaker 3>I don't know what you're talking about, Bessie. Secondly, as

0:32:50.007 --> 0:32:53.047
<v Speaker 3>someone who I really like Taylor Swift, I'm not a Swifty.

0:32:53.607 --> 0:32:55.167
<v Speaker 3>Why is it such a big deal that the Eras

0:32:55.207 --> 0:32:55.727
<v Speaker 3>tour is over?

0:32:55.807 --> 0:32:59.407
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, it's been going on for almost two years,

0:33:00.007 --> 0:33:03.047
<v Speaker 1>around eighteen months. Actually, she's played one hundred and forty

0:33:03.127 --> 0:33:05.847
<v Speaker 1>nine shows and the tour went to fifty four cities.

0:33:05.887 --> 0:33:10.327
<v Speaker 1>In twenty one countries and five out of the seven constance.

0:33:10.407 --> 0:33:15.047
<v Speaker 3>Content type of a lot of letters.

0:33:15.607 --> 0:33:19.447
<v Speaker 1>Yes, there are a lot of consonants. In her tour,

0:33:20.247 --> 0:33:23.447
<v Speaker 1>she missed no dates except for the three that she

0:33:23.527 --> 0:33:26.047
<v Speaker 1>was forced to cancel in Vienna because of a planned

0:33:26.087 --> 0:33:29.807
<v Speaker 1>terrorist attack. That's pretty extraordinary. She was not sick for

0:33:29.887 --> 0:33:31.927
<v Speaker 1>a single night of those shows. They went for three

0:33:31.967 --> 0:33:33.007
<v Speaker 1>and a half hours each.

0:33:33.647 --> 0:33:36.167
<v Speaker 3>Imagine the smoothie she's having. I would love to like

0:33:36.247 --> 0:33:39.047
<v Speaker 3>she must be. You'd focus so much on your health

0:33:39.087 --> 0:33:39.927
<v Speaker 3>and your energy levels.

0:33:40.047 --> 0:33:43.407
<v Speaker 1>Yes, much. She says. She doesn't drink when she's performing,

0:33:43.407 --> 0:33:46.127
<v Speaker 1>and she's when she's not singing because she has like

0:33:46.167 --> 0:33:49.247
<v Speaker 1>a few days break between each sort of batch of shows.

0:33:49.407 --> 0:33:52.727
<v Speaker 1>She's on complete vocal rest because imagine she sings full

0:33:52.767 --> 0:33:55.287
<v Speaker 1>out for three and a half hours often like three

0:33:55.407 --> 0:33:56.647
<v Speaker 1>or four nights in a row, and then she'll have

0:33:56.727 --> 0:33:59.367
<v Speaker 1>few days off. Anyway, listen to this. Her biggest show

0:33:59.367 --> 0:34:01.647
<v Speaker 1>to date was at Melbourne Cricket Ground in Australia, where

0:34:01.687 --> 0:34:05.207
<v Speaker 1>she performed for ninety six thousand people, of which I

0:34:05.367 --> 0:34:08.047
<v Speaker 1>was one. That's the one Coco and I were at

0:34:08.087 --> 0:34:11.287
<v Speaker 1>and it is the best. It was incredible. That was

0:34:11.327 --> 0:34:13.967
<v Speaker 1>the most people she ever played for I did. You're

0:34:13.967 --> 0:34:17.087
<v Speaker 1>not meant to say that because I'll get you sorry.

0:34:17.287 --> 0:34:18.087
<v Speaker 3>I think people are right.

0:34:18.167 --> 0:34:20.047
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I did go twice. I also went in Sydney,

0:34:20.087 --> 0:34:22.647
<v Speaker 1>but the Melbourne one was my favorite. Around ten million

0:34:22.687 --> 0:34:26.207
<v Speaker 1>people have attended the Eras tour and she sang all

0:34:26.207 --> 0:34:29.407
<v Speaker 1>too well. You know the song about Jake Jillian, that

0:34:29.447 --> 0:34:31.767
<v Speaker 1>song she sang a ten minute version of that on

0:34:31.847 --> 0:34:35.567
<v Speaker 1>stage acoustically. She plays it in every show, which means

0:34:35.567 --> 0:34:38.247
<v Speaker 1>that she has played it for twenty five hours and

0:34:38.287 --> 0:34:40.047
<v Speaker 1>eighteen minutes over one full day.

0:34:40.567 --> 0:34:43.007
<v Speaker 3>Imagine how sick she would bear of that song.

0:34:43.087 --> 0:34:45.127
<v Speaker 2>You know what I keep thinking about me, I've got

0:34:45.127 --> 0:34:45.607
<v Speaker 2>more facts.

0:34:46.567 --> 0:34:50.967
<v Speaker 1>Just sush because it's important. The global economic impact from

0:34:51.007 --> 0:34:53.447
<v Speaker 1>the Ears to her alone is thirteen to twenty eight

0:34:53.527 --> 0:34:57.887
<v Speaker 1>billion dollars, which roughly translates to the GDP of a

0:34:57.927 --> 0:35:00.887
<v Speaker 1>small country. And according to Forbes, she makes between ten

0:35:01.047 --> 0:35:04.407
<v Speaker 1>and thirteen million dollars per show. She just paid out

0:35:04.447 --> 0:35:07.927
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and ninety seven million dollars in tips to

0:35:08.047 --> 0:35:08.807
<v Speaker 1>her crew.

0:35:09.647 --> 0:35:11.127
<v Speaker 2>She treats her crew well, she pays more.

0:35:11.167 --> 0:35:14.167
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, there's other facts, but here's what I.

0:35:14.127 --> 0:35:16.527
<v Speaker 2>Want to know. Well, what I keep thinking about rather

0:35:16.887 --> 0:35:20.607
<v Speaker 2>is the relationship timeline because if on this December the eleventh,

0:35:20.607 --> 0:35:22.207
<v Speaker 2>you did get dumped, I want you to think about

0:35:22.207 --> 0:35:24.567
<v Speaker 2>how different your life could be at eighteen months. Because

0:35:25.567 --> 0:35:28.767
<v Speaker 2>when Taylor Swift started that tour, she was allegedly still

0:35:28.807 --> 0:35:31.887
<v Speaker 2>going out with Joe Olwen right, well we all thought so, yeah,

0:35:32.007 --> 0:35:33.967
<v Speaker 2>she broke up with him. She had an affair with

0:35:34.007 --> 0:35:37.447
<v Speaker 2>somebody else, a flat Laddie Healy. I only just saw

0:35:37.687 --> 0:35:40.527
<v Speaker 2>the video of the podcast where Travis Kelcey, so the

0:35:40.567 --> 0:35:43.567
<v Speaker 2>tour had already started. Travis Kelcey talks to his brother

0:35:43.607 --> 0:35:45.567
<v Speaker 2>about how he tried to go and give Taylor a

0:35:45.607 --> 0:35:47.447
<v Speaker 2>bracelet with her number on it, and she wouldn't see

0:35:47.527 --> 0:35:50.927
<v Speaker 2>him because she doesn't talk since that. Fast forward to

0:35:50.967 --> 0:35:52.887
<v Speaker 2>the end of the tour. He's dancing on a freaking

0:35:52.967 --> 0:35:56.247
<v Speaker 2>stage in a top hat. They're the most iconic couple

0:35:56.287 --> 0:35:58.887
<v Speaker 2>in the world. And now Mia thinks that she's having

0:35:58.887 --> 0:36:00.887
<v Speaker 2>his baby. Yes she is. So I just want to

0:36:00.927 --> 0:36:03.407
<v Speaker 2>tell everybody a lot can change in eighteen months. Look

0:36:03.407 --> 0:36:05.567
<v Speaker 2>at what's happened to Travis Kelsey in eighteen months. A

0:36:05.687 --> 0:36:09.567
<v Speaker 2>rainbow has been shot up that man's art. Eighteen months birth.

0:36:09.407 --> 0:36:12.047
<v Speaker 1>Stay to Taylor for two days time she turns thirty

0:36:12.047 --> 0:36:13.607
<v Speaker 1>five on the thirteenth of December.

0:36:13.647 --> 0:36:14.687
<v Speaker 2>Holder sad Geez.

0:36:15.167 --> 0:36:18.727
<v Speaker 3>Speaking of tours out Louders, this is your reminder to

0:36:18.847 --> 0:36:21.727
<v Speaker 3>buy tickets while you still can to our live show.

0:36:21.927 --> 0:36:24.887
<v Speaker 3>Maya update at the top of our lady board.

0:36:24.927 --> 0:36:28.687
<v Speaker 1>On the leaderboard, it's still Perth Perth ninety five percent Perth.

0:36:28.727 --> 0:36:29.687
<v Speaker 1>You nearly sold out.

0:36:29.727 --> 0:36:32.047
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, I met some last week. You'll hear

0:36:32.047 --> 0:36:33.407
<v Speaker 3>more about this in my best Friends and what some

0:36:33.407 --> 0:36:35.807
<v Speaker 3>Perth out Loud and Perth out Louders and they might

0:36:35.887 --> 0:36:38.607
<v Speaker 3>be the premium out louder there. I said it.

0:36:38.687 --> 0:36:40.407
<v Speaker 1>Every person you met in person they were coming to

0:36:40.407 --> 0:36:40.687
<v Speaker 1>the show.

0:36:40.807 --> 0:36:41.127
<v Speaker 2>They did.

0:36:41.167 --> 0:36:43.047
<v Speaker 3>They all said I'm coming. I'm very very excited.

0:36:43.207 --> 0:36:46.247
<v Speaker 1>Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne are selling very very fast because

0:36:46.287 --> 0:36:47.687
<v Speaker 1>out loud As are egger beavers.

0:36:47.807 --> 0:36:50.647
<v Speaker 2>It's the Mama Mia Out Loud Live twenty twenty five show.

0:36:50.687 --> 0:36:54.007
<v Speaker 2>It's called All or Nothing and it's presented by Nivia Cellular.

0:36:54.087 --> 0:36:56.167
<v Speaker 2>It's an all new show. So if you did come

0:36:56.207 --> 0:36:59.047
<v Speaker 2>and see us in May this year. Not like Taylor

0:36:59.087 --> 0:37:03.087
<v Speaker 2>Swift who's been doing the same show, Lazy Girl, She's

0:37:03.167 --> 0:37:06.447
<v Speaker 2>so lazy that Swifty. We are making a whole new

0:37:06.447 --> 0:37:09.247
<v Speaker 2>show for you, with all new costumes, all new gags,

0:37:09.247 --> 0:37:11.367
<v Speaker 2>all new arguments. You've got to come along. Head to

0:37:11.447 --> 0:37:14.247
<v Speaker 2>outloud live dot com dot au to get your pause

0:37:14.247 --> 0:37:16.447
<v Speaker 2>on some tickets before they sell out, and of course

0:37:16.487 --> 0:37:17.887
<v Speaker 2>that link is in the show notes.

0:37:18.367 --> 0:37:21.967
<v Speaker 1>After the break, the children's book that shaped many childhoods

0:37:22.007 --> 0:37:24.607
<v Speaker 1>is being canceled. Plus we have a couple more to

0:37:24.647 --> 0:37:26.647
<v Speaker 1>add to our burning books list.

0:37:26.887 --> 0:37:30.807
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, what unlimited out loud access. We drop

0:37:30.847 --> 0:37:35.487
<v Speaker 3>episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Muma Maya subscribers.

0:37:35.967 --> 0:37:38.047
<v Speaker 3>Follow the link in the show notes to get us

0:37:38.047 --> 0:37:40.807
<v Speaker 3>in your ears five days a week, and a huge

0:37:40.847 --> 0:37:42.847
<v Speaker 3>thank you to all our current subscribers.

0:37:46.247 --> 0:37:48.407
<v Speaker 1>If you're wondering why you need therapy, it's time to

0:37:48.447 --> 0:37:50.727
<v Speaker 1>blame the book you read when you were a small child.

0:37:51.127 --> 0:37:53.087
<v Speaker 1>There's an article written for Mamma Mia this week by

0:37:53.167 --> 0:37:56.487
<v Speaker 1>Cassandra Green called did this book shape your childhood? Apparently

0:37:56.527 --> 0:37:58.847
<v Speaker 1>it's why we all need therapy, And the book is

0:37:59.327 --> 0:38:00.647
<v Speaker 1>The Rainbowfish.

0:38:00.687 --> 0:38:02.847
<v Speaker 2>I love The Rainbow Feed by Marcus Fister.

0:38:03.727 --> 0:38:07.727
<v Speaker 1>It was published in nineteen ninety two and when I

0:38:07.847 --> 0:38:11.567
<v Speaker 1>read this, I immediately envisage the book and knew the cover,

0:38:11.687 --> 0:38:13.527
<v Speaker 1>and I did have that book and read it to

0:38:13.607 --> 0:38:17.007
<v Speaker 1>my kids in case you can't remember what it's about,

0:38:17.007 --> 0:38:19.767
<v Speaker 1>because I couldn't. The rainbow Fish follows the story of

0:38:19.807 --> 0:38:23.487
<v Speaker 1>the most beautiful fish in the entire ocean. It is

0:38:23.727 --> 0:38:27.127
<v Speaker 1>a fish that has shimmering, colorful scales. Although admired for

0:38:27.167 --> 0:38:30.687
<v Speaker 1>its beauty, the rainbow fish feels lonely because it refuses

0:38:30.727 --> 0:38:33.687
<v Speaker 1>to share its shiny scales with others. I don't even

0:38:33.727 --> 0:38:35.967
<v Speaker 1>know how that would work. After seeking advice from a

0:38:35.967 --> 0:38:39.647
<v Speaker 1>wise octopus, the rainbow fish decides to share its scales,

0:38:39.967 --> 0:38:43.607
<v Speaker 1>which sounds painful, realizing the joy of generosity and friendship.

0:38:43.727 --> 0:38:45.807
<v Speaker 1>By the end of the story, the rainbow fish is

0:38:45.847 --> 0:38:49.847
<v Speaker 1>surrounded by happy friends, having found true happiness in giving

0:38:50.887 --> 0:38:51.247
<v Speaker 1>your whole?

0:38:51.367 --> 0:38:51.887
<v Speaker 3>Is that correct?

0:38:51.927 --> 0:38:54.047
<v Speaker 1>Because you could remember the rainbowfish?

0:38:54.447 --> 0:38:57.567
<v Speaker 2>And I thought that's lovely, And then I saw some

0:38:57.647 --> 0:38:59.247
<v Speaker 2>of these tiktoks.

0:38:58.687 --> 0:39:02.327
<v Speaker 1>Not lovely because well correct, It seemed to us like

0:39:02.407 --> 0:39:05.247
<v Speaker 1>the story of the rainbow Fish was an allegory for

0:39:05.287 --> 0:39:08.527
<v Speaker 1>banishing ego and considering others before ourselves sharing.

0:39:08.567 --> 0:39:09.927
<v Speaker 3>Everyone needs to learn to share.

0:39:10.007 --> 0:39:12.967
<v Speaker 1>The fish learned to have a giving mindset instead of

0:39:12.967 --> 0:39:17.527
<v Speaker 1>a growth mindset, and to care about those around him. However,

0:39:18.207 --> 0:39:22.687
<v Speaker 1>psychologist Caroline Milsdorf on social media this week critiqued The

0:39:22.767 --> 0:39:27.367
<v Speaker 1>Rainbow Fish, suggesting that it promotes people pleasing over healthy generosity.

0:39:27.727 --> 0:39:30.727
<v Speaker 1>She argues that the story precious children to give up

0:39:30.727 --> 0:39:36.567
<v Speaker 1>their uniqueness and boundaries to gain acceptance from others. So, yes,

0:39:36.607 --> 0:39:39.407
<v Speaker 1>the book sends a problematic message. Children's value is tied

0:39:39.447 --> 0:39:40.727
<v Speaker 1>to how much they do for others.

0:39:41.047 --> 0:39:43.487
<v Speaker 3>The world needs more people pleasing. I think people pleasing

0:39:43.567 --> 0:39:47.207
<v Speaker 3>is a great message. The thing is about hoarding is

0:39:47.287 --> 0:39:50.047
<v Speaker 3>holding your own scales. Now, holding your own scales is

0:39:50.047 --> 0:39:53.087
<v Speaker 3>your instinct as someone with a child at the moment.

0:39:53.487 --> 0:39:56.207
<v Speaker 3>Not sharing is the instinct. Hence why we write books

0:39:56.367 --> 0:39:57.527
<v Speaker 3>about how we must share.

0:39:57.567 --> 0:39:59.767
<v Speaker 1>But Jesse must I share my skin with you? Literally?

0:39:59.927 --> 0:40:01.007
<v Speaker 3>I mean I know you bitches.

0:40:01.007 --> 0:40:01.967
<v Speaker 1>Where my clothes are lost?

0:40:02.087 --> 0:40:05.447
<v Speaker 3>Is at this the whole point that you walk around.

0:40:05.527 --> 0:40:07.887
<v Speaker 3>For example, you want to teach your child how lucky

0:40:07.887 --> 0:40:10.247
<v Speaker 3>they are and how they have things, not because they're

0:40:10.287 --> 0:40:14.487
<v Speaker 3>better than anyone else, not because they earned anything, but

0:40:14.607 --> 0:40:17.927
<v Speaker 3>because they were lucky enough to be born with a

0:40:17.967 --> 0:40:21.527
<v Speaker 3>particular gifts or rainbow fish still check its privilege yes,

0:40:21.567 --> 0:40:23.887
<v Speaker 3>and walk around and go I'm going to give this

0:40:23.927 --> 0:40:26.447
<v Speaker 3>to others because I am part of a community and

0:40:26.647 --> 0:40:30.807
<v Speaker 3>this analysis is some neoliberal bullshit which is all about

0:40:31.167 --> 0:40:34.047
<v Speaker 3>you're an individual and you can't give away your stuff

0:40:34.047 --> 0:40:36.807
<v Speaker 3>and you must just look after yourself, and which is

0:40:37.047 --> 0:40:38.007
<v Speaker 3>very very damaging.

0:40:38.207 --> 0:40:41.527
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I agree, And I was like, what are you

0:40:41.607 --> 0:40:42.407
<v Speaker 2>talking about them?

0:40:42.487 --> 0:40:42.647
<v Speaker 3>Then?

0:40:42.847 --> 0:40:45.287
<v Speaker 2>When I listen to what they were saying, these people,

0:40:45.327 --> 0:40:47.287
<v Speaker 2>because she's not the only one, this woman on TikTok,

0:40:47.687 --> 0:40:52.367
<v Speaker 2>they're saying that the other people are bullies, the ones

0:40:52.367 --> 0:40:54.047
<v Speaker 2>who are saying, give me one of your scales, give

0:40:54.087 --> 0:40:55.887
<v Speaker 2>me one of your scales, give me one of your scales.

0:40:56.007 --> 0:40:58.767
<v Speaker 5>You start off here with rainbow fish, just an introduction.

0:40:59.207 --> 0:41:00.967
<v Speaker 5>This is the most beautiful fish in the sea. And

0:41:01.007 --> 0:41:04.247
<v Speaker 5>this little boring ass fish goes, rainbelfish, give me one

0:41:04.247 --> 0:41:05.247
<v Speaker 5>of your shiny scales.

0:41:05.407 --> 0:41:06.287
<v Speaker 1>You have so many.

0:41:06.567 --> 0:41:09.767
<v Speaker 5>Rainbowfish responds rightfully by saying, you want me to give

0:41:09.767 --> 0:41:12.007
<v Speaker 5>you one of my special skills. Who do you think

0:41:12.047 --> 0:41:15.887
<v Speaker 5>you are? Get away from me? This little punk runs away,

0:41:15.927 --> 0:41:19.647
<v Speaker 5>shocked shit talks rainbowfish to his friends, and from then

0:41:19.687 --> 0:41:22.247
<v Speaker 5>on nobody wants anything to do with rainbow fish.

0:41:22.527 --> 0:41:24.687
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, oh, they are She's right.

0:41:24.807 --> 0:41:26.607
<v Speaker 3>No life is just people asking you for shit.

0:41:26.727 --> 0:41:30.527
<v Speaker 2>They say that, no, wonder we don't have boundaries, because

0:41:30.567 --> 0:41:32.447
<v Speaker 2>what the fish should have done is said, I'm very

0:41:32.487 --> 0:41:34.447
<v Speaker 2>sorry that you would like to have some shimmery scales

0:41:34.447 --> 0:41:36.327
<v Speaker 2>of your own, but these are my shimmery scales.

0:41:36.087 --> 0:41:38.287
<v Speaker 1>And I'll be trademarking my vibe exactly.

0:41:38.887 --> 0:41:41.087
<v Speaker 2>I'd never thought of it like that. It blew my mind,

0:41:41.127 --> 0:41:43.247
<v Speaker 2>and then I realized, exactly what you've just said is

0:41:43.247 --> 0:41:46.327
<v Speaker 2>that the rainbow fish is like a socialist parable right.

0:41:46.407 --> 0:41:50.087
<v Speaker 2>It's like, oh, we share the riches between everybody, and

0:41:50.167 --> 0:41:54.087
<v Speaker 2>it does not vibe with our individualistic times. But the

0:41:54.127 --> 0:41:57.167
<v Speaker 2>thing is, I genuinely read that book to my kids

0:41:57.207 --> 0:41:59.087
<v Speaker 2>every night, and I never thought of this, and now

0:41:59.127 --> 0:42:02.767
<v Speaker 2>it's all I can see boundaries. The fish needs boundaries.

0:42:02.807 --> 0:42:05.007
<v Speaker 3>I don't think the fish needs boundaries. I think that

0:42:05.247 --> 0:42:08.847
<v Speaker 3>the idea that you are part of a community is

0:42:08.847 --> 0:42:11.647
<v Speaker 3>a very one and I think that we are overthinking it.

0:42:11.767 --> 0:42:13.607
<v Speaker 2>What about the bit where she says this is why

0:42:13.607 --> 0:42:18.167
<v Speaker 2>all millennials people pleasers who suffer from burnout.

0:42:18.527 --> 0:42:20.607
<v Speaker 3>I don't think we are a bunch of people pleases.

0:42:20.727 --> 0:42:23.767
<v Speaker 1>Well, speaking of burnout, it's made me question everything, including

0:42:23.807 --> 0:42:26.367
<v Speaker 1>where is the green sheep by our beloved men fox,

0:42:26.407 --> 0:42:31.407
<v Speaker 1>which what's that Mourner is particularly interested in. Everybody's looking

0:42:31.567 --> 0:42:34.487
<v Speaker 1>for the green sheep, Jesse. And they can find all

0:42:34.487 --> 0:42:36.687
<v Speaker 1>the other sheeps. They can find bath sheep, they can

0:42:36.727 --> 0:42:40.167
<v Speaker 1>find bed sheep, they can find red sheep, they can

0:42:40.207 --> 0:42:43.127
<v Speaker 1>find all the different sheeps, but they can't find the

0:42:43.167 --> 0:42:45.687
<v Speaker 1>green sheep. And do you know why why the green

0:42:45.727 --> 0:42:49.727
<v Speaker 1>sheep is asleep under a bush? And I think that's

0:42:49.767 --> 0:42:54.007
<v Speaker 1>an all agree about burnout, social anxiety and quiet quitting.

0:42:55.087 --> 0:42:56.847
<v Speaker 1>That's so true. I think that the green sheep is

0:42:56.927 --> 0:42:58.687
<v Speaker 1>quite queer. I think it's quite quitting the book.

0:42:58.767 --> 0:43:01.007
<v Speaker 2>I do you think there needs to be people should

0:43:01.007 --> 0:43:02.807
<v Speaker 2>just stop looking for the green sheep because the green

0:43:02.847 --> 0:43:04.247
<v Speaker 2>sheep is worthless lazy.

0:43:04.367 --> 0:43:06.887
<v Speaker 1>Also, the green sheep needs some time to reach out

0:43:06.887 --> 0:43:08.967
<v Speaker 1>to you social batteries, away from all the other bloody

0:43:09.007 --> 0:43:11.727
<v Speaker 1>sheep doing things like going down slides and jumping off

0:43:12.087 --> 0:43:15.207
<v Speaker 1>piers they're so busy, or the others of trains.

0:43:15.247 --> 0:43:18.567
<v Speaker 3>I think you're projecting. I struggle with the very hungry

0:43:18.567 --> 0:43:23.527
<v Speaker 3>caterpillar because I think that it promotes disordered eating because.

0:43:23.167 --> 0:43:24.287
<v Speaker 1>It's it's binging.

0:43:24.487 --> 0:43:26.967
<v Speaker 3>It is binging, and it's a bit shamy.

0:43:26.727 --> 0:43:29.927
<v Speaker 2>But they're very hungry. Caterpillar eats his or hers way

0:43:30.087 --> 0:43:31.367
<v Speaker 2>through lots of healthy food.

0:43:31.487 --> 0:43:34.487
<v Speaker 1>It's fuel to become like you need fuel.

0:43:34.727 --> 0:43:37.047
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, But then it's like, oh, and then the caterpillar

0:43:37.087 --> 0:43:39.487
<v Speaker 3>had a tummy ache, and it's like, oh, you're trying

0:43:39.487 --> 0:43:40.927
<v Speaker 3>and tell my kid not to eat as much as

0:43:40.927 --> 0:43:43.287
<v Speaker 3>they feel like or are you trying to tell my

0:43:43.367 --> 0:43:45.207
<v Speaker 3>kid that they must binge in order to grow.

0:43:45.047 --> 0:43:47.607
<v Speaker 1>It because they need to recognize the signals when they

0:43:47.647 --> 0:43:50.887
<v Speaker 1>are full, and they shouldn't emotionally eat. I also, I

0:43:50.927 --> 0:43:53.567
<v Speaker 1>think the hungry caterpillar is emotionally eating. I think that

0:43:53.687 --> 0:43:55.247
<v Speaker 1>it was too feelings.

0:43:55.367 --> 0:43:57.607
<v Speaker 3>I struggle with you know how you were talking about

0:43:57.607 --> 0:44:01.767
<v Speaker 3>the rainbow fish and how the octopus says something to it.

0:44:01.767 --> 0:44:04.567
<v Speaker 3>It's really hard when a child is trying to understand

0:44:04.607 --> 0:44:06.927
<v Speaker 3>the world around them when every animal in every book

0:44:06.967 --> 0:44:10.487
<v Speaker 3>talks and wears clothes, up your expectation and has a

0:44:10.567 --> 0:44:13.047
<v Speaker 3>half glasses, and you've got to go. You know what.

0:44:13.767 --> 0:44:15.127
<v Speaker 3>Giraffes don't come up.

0:44:15.087 --> 0:44:17.687
<v Speaker 1>Much in puses. You might not ever see.

0:44:17.727 --> 0:44:19.727
<v Speaker 3>You might talk to one in your whole life. You're

0:44:19.727 --> 0:44:20.567
<v Speaker 3>probably not going to talk.

0:44:20.447 --> 0:44:22.647
<v Speaker 1>To them, probably not going to bear a hat. No, exactly.

0:44:22.807 --> 0:44:24.887
<v Speaker 2>But this is why we give all the animals in

0:44:24.927 --> 0:44:27.567
<v Speaker 2>our lives voices. This is why your dog talked like this.

0:44:27.807 --> 0:44:30.807
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I see a lot of sheep at the playground.

0:44:30.847 --> 0:44:32.727
<v Speaker 1>There's not actually a lot of sheep. Where are the sheep?

0:44:32.767 --> 0:44:36.887
<v Speaker 1>Why aren't they going down the slide?

0:44:37.247 --> 0:44:37.767
<v Speaker 2>Dear zoo?

0:44:38.207 --> 0:44:39.927
<v Speaker 3>Because dear Zoo is all about I wrote to the

0:44:40.007 --> 0:44:41.767
<v Speaker 3>zoo to send me a pet. They sent me an

0:44:41.767 --> 0:44:45.647
<v Speaker 3>elephant in a box. I'm like, we're not sending yeah,

0:44:46.007 --> 0:44:48.087
<v Speaker 3>or a snake or a monkey in a box. You know,

0:44:49.167 --> 0:44:51.487
<v Speaker 3>send them back. That's an episode and we know what

0:44:51.567 --> 0:44:53.647
<v Speaker 3>happens when you send them back. They've got a landfill

0:44:53.727 --> 0:44:56.647
<v Speaker 3>border force. What do they called Australian.

0:44:57.567 --> 0:44:59.367
<v Speaker 2>Control the landfill?

0:45:00.367 --> 0:45:02.607
<v Speaker 3>We really this is escalated quickly.

0:45:03.367 --> 0:45:05.607
<v Speaker 2>One of the things about children's books is they've always

0:45:05.607 --> 0:45:09.127
<v Speaker 2>had allegories of messages, right, but not everything in childhood

0:45:09.367 --> 0:45:11.367
<v Speaker 2>to be educational, we just need some books that are

0:45:11.407 --> 0:45:11.807
<v Speaker 2>just fun.

0:45:12.767 --> 0:45:14.127
<v Speaker 1>Foster Blake's book about farts.

0:45:14.207 --> 0:45:16.767
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the reason kids like the rainbow fish actually is

0:45:16.887 --> 0:45:20.087
<v Speaker 2>very superficial. It's because it's sparkly. That's why they like it.

0:45:20.407 --> 0:45:23.887
<v Speaker 2>You get to touch the spark exactly. You get to

0:45:23.887 --> 0:45:27.447
<v Speaker 2>touch the sparkly scales. It's beautifully produced. You can get

0:45:27.487 --> 0:45:29.927
<v Speaker 2>a rainbow fish hanger, you can get a rainbow fish calendar.

0:45:29.967 --> 0:45:33.647
<v Speaker 2>Good Not anymore, you can't because now it's been canceled

0:45:33.647 --> 0:45:36.007
<v Speaker 2>for being the root of all evil. That is all

0:45:36.007 --> 0:45:38.407
<v Speaker 2>we've got time for today, my friends. That is all

0:45:38.447 --> 0:45:38.887
<v Speaker 2>we have time.

0:45:38.967 --> 0:45:41.287
<v Speaker 1>We've run out of time on the internet. There's no

0:45:41.367 --> 0:45:42.927
<v Speaker 1>more space left for our consonants.

0:45:44.287 --> 0:45:46.527
<v Speaker 2>Just th that the Internet is saying enough.

0:45:47.807 --> 0:45:49.727
<v Speaker 1>Enough, because the Internet has boundaries.

0:45:50.527 --> 0:45:52.447
<v Speaker 2>They didn't read that book.

0:45:52.567 --> 0:45:57.487
<v Speaker 3>No one tries to replicate our vibe, because I would

0:45:57.527 --> 0:45:59.047
<v Speaker 3>love someone to try and replicate ours.

0:45:59.047 --> 0:46:01.687
<v Speaker 1>I should say, speaking of our vibe that as we

0:46:01.767 --> 0:46:04.807
<v Speaker 1>are the top of the leaderboard for women's podcasts in Australia,

0:46:04.887 --> 0:46:08.807
<v Speaker 1>and we're number four for all of the podcasts, so

0:46:08.927 --> 0:46:11.247
<v Speaker 1>well done to you for putting us there.

0:46:11.287 --> 0:46:15.447
<v Speaker 2>Really were as leaderboard. Obsession is getting out of control

0:46:15.927 --> 0:46:19.727
<v Speaker 2>before we go. Almost every workplace has an inappropriate man

0:46:19.767 --> 0:46:23.127
<v Speaker 2>in it. Actually not ours, not ours, momma. There are

0:46:23.127 --> 0:46:24.647
<v Speaker 2>a few men here. They're not inappropriate.

0:46:24.727 --> 0:46:26.167
<v Speaker 1>I was going to say, except when my dog was

0:46:26.207 --> 0:46:28.127
<v Speaker 1>biting people, But that wasn't a man, It was actually

0:46:28.127 --> 0:46:31.047
<v Speaker 1>a girl dog. So ignore me and continued even work.

0:46:31.127 --> 0:46:34.407
<v Speaker 2>Then fold up your leaderboards and put him under the tree.

0:46:34.527 --> 0:46:36.847
<v Speaker 2>It's a big We have a massive thank you to

0:46:36.927 --> 0:46:40.007
<v Speaker 2>all of you out louders for listening to today's show

0:46:40.167 --> 0:46:42.527
<v Speaker 2>and to our fabulous team for putting it together.

0:46:42.647 --> 0:46:44.007
<v Speaker 1>We're going to be on the top of the Lead

0:46:44.127 --> 0:46:46.567
<v Speaker 1>Lady leaderboard if there wasn't for our listeners.

0:46:46.607 --> 0:46:49.407
<v Speaker 2>Thank you out Loudness. It's not about me as leaderboard.

0:46:49.407 --> 0:46:52.447
<v Speaker 2>We appreciate you anyway. We need to write a children's

0:46:52.447 --> 0:46:55.847
<v Speaker 2>book about that. We'll be back in your ears tomorrow.

0:46:56.407 --> 0:46:59.647
<v Speaker 2>On our most recent Subs episode, em Vernon and I

0:46:59.727 --> 0:47:02.927
<v Speaker 2>talk about Greg Wallace, who is a very problematic English

0:47:02.967 --> 0:47:05.887
<v Speaker 2>TV presenter who has turned out to be very much

0:47:05.927 --> 0:47:08.687
<v Speaker 2>that inappropriate guy in a workplace, and what the hell

0:47:08.727 --> 0:47:11.687
<v Speaker 2>you do about and why women off a certain age

0:47:11.807 --> 0:47:14.567
<v Speaker 2>in inverted commas may be the ones to call them out.

0:47:15.367 --> 0:47:17.727
<v Speaker 2>Maybe the reason that the women who are complaining about

0:47:17.767 --> 0:47:19.727
<v Speaker 2>this are what we would call middle class and middle

0:47:19.767 --> 0:47:22.367
<v Speaker 2>age because they're the ones who can complain about it.

0:47:22.407 --> 0:47:25.927
<v Speaker 2>Because if you're the junior grip on the show or

0:47:25.967 --> 0:47:28.007
<v Speaker 2>one of the makeup women or whatever, and you're young

0:47:28.007 --> 0:47:29.647
<v Speaker 2>and you're at the beginning of your career. You're not

0:47:29.687 --> 0:47:31.887
<v Speaker 2>going to go straight in with a complaint about the

0:47:31.927 --> 0:47:33.847
<v Speaker 2>guy who's been hosting the show for twenty years. No,

0:47:34.047 --> 0:47:36.847
<v Speaker 2>I don't even know. We're allowed to complain about those things.

0:47:36.927 --> 0:47:40.527
<v Speaker 2>You are absolutely allowed to complain about these things. But,

0:47:40.647 --> 0:47:42.847
<v Speaker 2>as this story suggests, as a link in the show

0:47:42.887 --> 0:47:43.287
<v Speaker 2>notes where you.

0:47:43.287 --> 0:47:48.567
<v Speaker 1>Can listen, Bye shout out to any Muma mia subscribers listening.

0:47:48.727 --> 0:47:51.007
<v Speaker 1>If you love the show and want to support us

0:47:51.047 --> 0:47:53.887
<v Speaker 1>as well, subscribing to MoMA mia is the very best

0:47:53.887 --> 0:47:55.687
<v Speaker 1>way to do so. There is a link in the

0:47:55.727 --> 0:47:56.647
<v Speaker 1>episode description