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Speaker 1: The story goes that Blake Lively couldn't help it. She

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Speaker 1: of course fell in love with Justin Baldoni. She had

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Speaker 1: caught feelings for him, and he probably either rejected her

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Speaker 1: or their relationship cross the line.

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Speaker 2: She was pregnant and she just had her fourth baby.

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Speaker 2: That's when I'm feeling my most horning.

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Speaker 3: So this is one of it.

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Speaker 4: This is one of the most common tropes of an abuser. Again,

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Speaker 4: she was obsessed with me, She fell in bess with me.

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Speaker 4: She couldn't like she wouldn't leave me alone.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to Mama Mia out Loud.

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Speaker 4: It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the

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Speaker 4: twenty ninth of January.

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Speaker 2: I'm Hollywayne, I'm Mea Friedman.

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Speaker 5: And I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 1: And you might have seen if you do not follow

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Speaker 1: Mamya out Loud on Instagram. Oh, you're very silly, because

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Speaker 1: it's a lot of fun. I have been sharing.

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Speaker 5: It's me silly, silly photos.

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Speaker 2: We've ramped up our social game we had twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: I've been sharing silly photos from the twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: live show never before seen. Holly Waynwright apparently wins every obsessed.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's because I was Beyonce.

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Speaker 5: You were beyond.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't literally Beyonce, but.

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Speaker 4: In our dress up yes section, I was dressed in

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Speaker 4: the single Ladies Out.

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Speaker 2: I'm not getting enough attention for my Jetta in my

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Speaker 2: two two Yes.

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Speaker 4: As I said Mea had never been more Maya because

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Speaker 4: she got to be both a Taylor swith cheerleader and.

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Speaker 1: A ball and a ballerina. So if you don't know

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about, go and look on our Instagram.

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Speaker 1: And if you want to see stuff like this, there

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Speaker 1: is only one way.

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Speaker 2: Because we're going to be doing this year. We're topping

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Speaker 2: it exactly.

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Speaker 1: Mom and Me are out Loud Live twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: presented by Nivea Cellular four tickets. Head to out loud

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Speaker 1: live dot com dot Au or you can check our

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Speaker 1: show notes.

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Speaker 4: But back in our civilian clothes on the show. Today,

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Speaker 4: we are in the middle of Act two of the

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Speaker 4: Rolling Blake Lively just in Baldoni drama, and our.

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Speaker 3: Goldfish tendencies are showing.

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Speaker 4: Jesse Stevens explains also the naggy dat advice you should

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Speaker 4: almost certainly ignore and the straight yet chaotic line between

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Speaker 4: Jerry Springer and maths, but first mea Friedman in casey mister.

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Speaker 2: Former Australian of the Year, Grace Tame wore a T

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Speaker 2: shirt saying fuck Murdoch to a morning tea at the

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Speaker 2: PM's house to celebrate the twenty twenty five Australian of

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Speaker 2: the Year awards a few days ago and honor all

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Speaker 2: the new people who had just been named. Grace Tame

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Speaker 2: was photographed wearing the shirt while being greeted by Prime

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Speaker 2: Minister Anthony Abernezi and his fiancee, Jody Hayden, and she

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Speaker 2: explained that the shirt symbolized resistance against this is a

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Speaker 2: quote obscene greed in humanity and disconnection that Murdock represents.

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Speaker 2: If we want to dismantle the concentration of morbid wealth

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Speaker 2: that undemocratically rules the world and really make the major

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Speaker 2: political decisions that affect the everyday person, if we want

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Speaker 2: climate action, and if we want justice, if we want truth,

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Speaker 2: I think it's probably a good place to start. If

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Speaker 2: you want to get a few birds with one giant,

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Speaker 2: ugly stone, this is it. She was referring to her

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Speaker 2: T shirt. Of course, Prime Minister Albanezi criticized Tame's choice,

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Speaker 2: calling it disrespectful. Here's what he said.

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Speaker 6: It was clearly designed to get attention. I don't intend

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Speaker 6: to add to that attention because I do think that

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Speaker 6: it takes away from what the day should be about,

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Speaker 6: which is the amazing people who were nominated as Australians

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Speaker 6: of the Year.

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Speaker 2: The event follows a previous controversial moment. You may remember

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Speaker 2: back in twenty twenty two when she pulled a face

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Speaker 2: during a photo with the then Prime Minister Scott Morrison.

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Speaker 2: It was at the same event. It was at a

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Speaker 2: morning tea to celebrate the new winners of the Australian

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Speaker 2: of the Year awards. This incident has sparked debate about

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Speaker 2: freedom of expression, respect at official events, stress codes, and

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Speaker 2: the influence of the Murdock media empire in Australia. Oh

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Speaker 2: I'm not a fan of this.

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Speaker 3: I was all for it.

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Speaker 1: I have a lot of time for Grace Hame, and

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Speaker 1: in fact Grace Ham one Australian of the Year in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one because of her work with the let

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Speaker 1: Her Speak campaign. If you actually look at the let

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Speaker 1: Her Speak campaign, it had something to do with the

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Speaker 1: Murdock Press in that it was about the gag order

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Speaker 1: that was placed on victim. She was in Tasmania, but

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Speaker 1: it was about your right to speak publicly about what

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Speaker 1: happened to you as a victim of assault. So what

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Speaker 1: happened in the case of Grace Tame.

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Speaker 2: Funny you mentioned that because did you know that he

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Speaker 2: was limited with a media partner for that campaign.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And she's spoken about experience social justice for the cass.

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Speaker 1: She's spoken about her experience with that, but her perpetrator,

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Speaker 1: his voice was heard. And she has written an incredible

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Speaker 1: article in Crikee all about the mercury in Tasmania and

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Speaker 1: the way that it referred to a relationship between her

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Speaker 1: and her perpetrator sex affair, like really inappropriate language. And

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Speaker 1: the Grace Tame Foundation has changed legislation so you can't

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Speaker 1: call it a relationship anymore for child sex abit.

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Speaker 2: But we're not debating any of that, whether Grace Tame

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Speaker 2: is a good advocate, whether she's done great.

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Speaker 1: But I'm saying is that her wearing fuck Murdoch to

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Speaker 1: the Australian of the Year awards is in line with

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Speaker 1: why you gave Grace Tame Australian of the Year in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. She turned out she turned up as

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Speaker 1: herself as someone who is an outspoken advocate, as someone

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Speaker 1: who was awarded for her advocacy, and I think that

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Speaker 1: what she did was to be expected.

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Speaker 4: My support for it is much more basic than that,

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Speaker 4: because all of that's true, Jesse, that you just said.

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Speaker 4: But also that's not why she said she wore it.

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Speaker 4: She literally said she wore it because she thinks that

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Speaker 4: the Murdock Press is making the world worse and the

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Speaker 4: time to be called out the reason.

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Speaker 3: I quite liked that she wore it.

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Speaker 4: And I can see exactly that it presented a problem

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Speaker 4: for the Prime Minister. Of course it did, and his

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Speaker 4: criticism of it was pretty soft but very valid. He said,

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Speaker 4: this is a distraction, This is a bid for attention.

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Speaker 4: It is exactly what it was, a bid for attention.

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Speaker 4: And that's because, as we say on the show all

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Speaker 4: the time, we live in an attention economy, and Grace

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Speaker 4: Tame is a world class shit stirra.

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Speaker 3: That's her role.

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Speaker 4: She is an activist and an advocate that is not

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Speaker 4: in line with always being polite and lovely and doing

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Speaker 4: the right thing and being respectful. That hasn't been working

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Speaker 4: out that well. We might notice that people who break

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Speaker 4: norms and get attention seem to be the people owning

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Speaker 4: the conversation at the minute.

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Speaker 3: So I kind of thought, would I do that?

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Speaker 4: No, I wouldn't, No way, would I absolutely not. You know,

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Speaker 4: I would be like, oh, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Alboth for inviting me.

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Speaker 4: Here, and look at all these important people I'm getting

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Speaker 4: to meet. But do I support the role of provocative

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Speaker 4: agitators in our general, robust public conversation one hundred percent?

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Speaker 2: I do.

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Speaker 5: May you tell me, tell me about what it triggered

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Speaker 5: for You.

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Speaker 2: Didn't trigger anything. I'm just wondering if that's what we're

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Speaker 2: doing now, Are we just say we've been doing it

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Speaker 2: for a while. Are we just turning up to official

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Speaker 2: events and appearing in public with fuck the people we

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Speaker 2: don't agree with? So should Darton maybe just wear a

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Speaker 2: fuck Penny Wong T shirt because Pauline Hanson wear a

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Speaker 2: fuck migrants T shirt? She actually doesn't.

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Speaker 4: But also they're publicly elected of them and Grace Tayman

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Speaker 4: not the same.

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Speaker 2: Thing, Okay, So will we Okay? When Tony Abbott stood

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Speaker 2: in front of the ditch the Bitch and Ditch the

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Speaker 2: Witch signs, my point is that is that what public

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Speaker 2: discourse is now that we firstly detract attention from other

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Speaker 2: people who the whole point of being Australian of the

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Speaker 2: Year and being named is that you can draw attention

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Speaker 2: to your cause, whatever that cause may be. And Grace

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Speaker 2: Tamee got that for a year and she did some

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Speaker 2: wonderful things during that time, or credit to her. It's

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Speaker 2: now the turn of some other people and this was

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Speaker 2: an important day for them, and particularly for the new

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Speaker 2: Australian of the Year, Neil Denier. It's his turn. He

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Speaker 2: has moderneur own disease and he is an advocate for that.

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Speaker 2: So she knew full well that she was going to

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Speaker 2: suck up all the oxygen of that event.

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Speaker 5: Oh no, she put everybody that she was.

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Speaker 2: Standing next into a difficulty. You funny, And I'm just

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Speaker 2: wondering if that's what we do now, because that's fine

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Speaker 2: if you kind of agree with the sentiment on the

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Speaker 2: T shirt, but if you don't, or if you might

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Speaker 2: agree with the sentiment but not the way it was delivered.

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Speaker 2: I'm just wondering if that's what we're doing.

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Speaker 5: I have spoken before.

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Speaker 1: I don't like contempt entering public discourse and being something

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Speaker 1: that we use all the time, and as Holly said,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have worn that shirt.

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Speaker 5: I might have done it differently.

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Speaker 2: So if someone there was wearing a fuck Grace Tame

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Speaker 2: T shirt, would that be okay?

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Speaker 1: Well, see it's interesting because to me, Murdock and this

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Speaker 1: might be going into the weeds a little bit, but

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Speaker 1: it represents something much bigger than one man, and that's

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Speaker 1: not what she's saying. I don't think that that was

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Speaker 1: the same as wearing a T shirt that you had

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Speaker 1: someone's face on it. I think the irony is that

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Speaker 1: we're about to go into an election campaign that Australian

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Speaker 1: history will show you is decided by the Murdock Press.

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Speaker 1: It is one of the most powerful rich I would

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Speaker 1: argue detrimental institutions to exist. And so if she's standing there,

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Speaker 1: if you don't want Grace Tame to make her point,

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Speaker 1: don't invite her exactly like she was invited to.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry they have to invite.

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Speaker 4: Her, then you know what you're going to get.

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Speaker 1: Tam brumfort if she turned up with a shirt that

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Speaker 1: said body positivity, or Dylan Alcott turned up in a

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Speaker 1: shirt that was about disability.

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Speaker 2: I can't compare it. I mean that would be fine.

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Speaker 2: No one would have had a problem with that. When

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Speaker 2: you are wearing a T shirt that is abusive of

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Speaker 2: another institution or individual, you suck all the oxygen out

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Speaker 2: of the room. And secondly, you put everybody in a

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Speaker 2: difficult position, a compromising position. And thirdly, you lower the

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Speaker 2: tone of debate so that when someone responds to her,

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Speaker 2: whether it's on social media or in the street, fuck you,

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Speaker 2: Grace Tame, what do you say?

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Speaker 3: You agree with that?

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Speaker 2: You're the one that's set the stand.

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Speaker 3: I agree with you about that.

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Speaker 4: I do not think this is the way that public

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Speaker 4: debate should be correct carry it out.

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Speaker 2: But that's what I'm saying, which I get.

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Speaker 4: But I also I genuinely think that we're living in

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Speaker 4: this moment where nobody knows anymore how to get their

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Speaker 4: points across. We all know what gets attention. If you're

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Speaker 4: going to invite an activist, I hate to use the word,

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Speaker 4: but I'm going to say a feisty activist, somebody who

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Speaker 4: is known for always making their point when they get

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Speaker 4: that opportunity to get the camera on them, then this

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Speaker 4: is a.

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Speaker 3: Way of doing it.

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Speaker 4: And she's written I understand, I think that.

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Speaker 2: Was your thing to do the other nomination.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's got anything to.

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Speaker 5: Do with no me neither.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, if we're going to blame anyone

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Speaker 1: for the attention that was sucked up, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: blame the Murdock Press because they've chosen who they're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about, and it's the media.

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Speaker 2: None of the things that I've read about it, or

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Speaker 2: none of the coverage I s always in the Murdock Press.

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Speaker 1: Actually, if you read what the Murdoch Press has written

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Speaker 1: about Grace Tayman, this is the true.

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Speaker 5: You can go read the cricky article.

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Speaker 1: Guess who's read that, Probably bloody no one because no

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Speaker 1: one reads words anymore. Or they'll read two words, which

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Speaker 1: is F. Murdock, which she had on her T shirt.

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Speaker 1: But this is an abuse a child sex abuse survivor

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Speaker 1: who is deeply traumatized. And if this is how she

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Speaker 1: wants to engage with an institution that she says re

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Speaker 1: traumatized her, go for it.

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Speaker 7: Hey, Blake, it is two in the morning. Hopefully this

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Speaker 7: does not wake you up. Wow, there's so much I

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Speaker 7: want to say to you, and I hope that we

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Speaker 7: can FaceTime or see each other in person. I want

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Speaker 7: to start with an apology, I'm really sorry.

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Speaker 1: Leaked footage, a two am seven minute voice note, Ryan

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Speaker 1: Reynolds's involvement, and a bizarre theory. We've entered the next

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Speaker 1: act in the Blake Lively Justin Baldoni epic and I

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Speaker 1: for one hate it here. It all started with It

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Speaker 1: Ends with Us that was released in August of last year.

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Speaker 1: We know there was friction on set and with the

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Speaker 1: promotion of the film. Then December twenty last year, we

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Speaker 1: jumped on emergency meeting. You might remember Blake Lively.

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Speaker 2: It's like a long time ago.

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Speaker 3: It does like a life. It really wasn't.

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Speaker 1: She filed a complaint, followed by a lawsuit against Justin Baldoni.

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Speaker 1: It alleged sexual harassment and an orchestrated smear campaign against her.

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Speaker 1: It was outlined comprehensively in The New York Times. Then

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Speaker 1: Baldoni filed his own lawsuits. He sued The New York

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Speaker 1: Times for libel, as well as Lively and her husband

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Speaker 1: Ryan Reynolds, for trying to destroy him. In the two

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollar lawsuit, Baldoni claimed that Lively

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Speaker 1: attempted to steal control of the movie and coordinated a

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Speaker 1: strategic and manipulative smear campaign of her own.

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Speaker 2: Has anyone else tuned out at this point? I know

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Speaker 2: you have a lot more to go, but it seemed

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Speaker 2: like such an amazing story. When it broke that New

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Speaker 2: York Times piece came out and she filed that civil suit.

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Speaker 2: I've become less and less interested in this story, and

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Speaker 2: I've just felt more and more sick about it, and

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Speaker 2: I'm at the point where I almost can't take in

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Speaker 2: any more information.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So what's happened in the last week or so

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Speaker 1: is what we will refer to under the subheading of receipts.

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Speaker 1: So it's the receipts that I think have given extra

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Speaker 1: oxygen we now have evidence.

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Speaker 2: Seats from because it hasn't it all been about receipts

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Speaker 2: since last year?

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Speaker 1: Well, yes, we had the text messages, but now we've

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Speaker 1: got would you like to watch ten minute video or

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Speaker 1: would you like the seven minute voice message?

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Speaker 5: What would you like me? Because I can give it

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Speaker 5: all And.

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Speaker 2: It's also I know it's leaking at both of them.

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Speaker 1: No, I would say it's Baldoni at this point, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And also I agree with you mayre it feels so

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Speaker 4: complicated and discombobulating at this point.

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Speaker 3: But it is all over my.

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Speaker 4: Feed, and it is all over the front of the

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Speaker 4: Daily Mail, and it is all over the front of everyone.

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Speaker 3: That suggests that people are still leaning in.

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Speaker 1: So by mid January, Baldonian, his production company, and a

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Speaker 1: few others file a new lawsuit. This is where I'm

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Speaker 1: getting really lost. But I keep seeing the figure four

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Speaker 1: hundred million dollars in damages and I had to double

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Speaker 1: check this, But is that half a billion dollars?

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Speaker 2: Almost almost?

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Speaker 5: It's nearly half a bill. It just seems like a

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Speaker 5: lot of money, is all I'm going to say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Baldoni's lawsuit says this is not a case about celebrity

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Speaker 1: sniping at each other in the It is a case

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Speaker 1: about two of the most powerful stars in the world

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Speaker 1: deploying their enormous power to steal an entire film right

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Speaker 1: out of the hands of its director and production studio.

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Speaker 1: Look basically everything Lively claimed about Baldoni. So remember, Apparently

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Speaker 1: he talked about his porn addiction. Apparently he entered her

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Speaker 1: trailer when she was breastfeeding.

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Speaker 2: He allegedly hired one of his friends to play her

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Speaker 2: gynecologist and was like, right, up between our legs.

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Speaker 1: He provides context doesn't look as bad, and everyone goes,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just a misunderstanding.

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Speaker 2: He's just muddying the water, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Unless you're a supporter of him, and you go, no,

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Speaker 1: he's just defending himself.

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Speaker 3: He's setting the record straight.

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Speaker 5: He's setting the record straight.

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Speaker 2: And to do that in a.

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Speaker 4: Court though, well, he's doing that in a court too.

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Speaker 4: In March twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but there are receipts.

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Speaker 1: So one of the key complaints was about a dance scene.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember this. So the dance scene apparently Lively

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Speaker 1: and Baldoni no audio in the movie, but it was

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Speaker 1: being filmed just kind of like it would have news

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Speaker 1: over the top, right, And what Lively said was that

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Speaker 1: Baldoni said something about how good she smelled and then

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Speaker 1: kissed her all over the neck when he wasn't in character.

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Speaker 1: So what Baldoni's team have done is released all of

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Speaker 1: the footage. You can go watch it on YouTube of

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Speaker 1: what happened and they're micd up and you can hear

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Speaker 1: what happened, and look, his team, did you watch it?

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Speaker 2: What do you think? Because I don't want to.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what I think, here's what I heard.

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Speaker 1: I heard him say that she smelled nice because she

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Speaker 1: was self conscious that her faked hans smelled bad. And

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Speaker 1: then I saw them kind of going in and out

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Speaker 1: and there was a little bit of instruction around them.

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Speaker 1: But he's a director, right, Yeah, so it's a bit

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Speaker 1: awkward that he's her employer.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've been on set, so he's got the power

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Speaker 2: in that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But when you're the actor director, that line is

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Speaker 4: particularly blurry, right, because it's like, who told you to

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Speaker 4: kiss me on the neck?

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Speaker 3: Well, I told myself to do.

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Speaker 2: It because that and it's not blurry because you've got

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Speaker 2: all the power. You're not only the playing a dominant character,

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Speaker 2: but you are the director, so you've kind of got

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Speaker 2: to do whatever you want.

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Speaker 1: Card And then I guess, in Baldoni's defense, if she

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Speaker 1: is saying yes or going along with it, then was

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Speaker 1: he to know that she was uncomfortable?

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Speaker 2: But isn't that what sexual harassment is? That it is

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Speaker 2: about someone taking advantage of the power that they have.

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Speaker 2: I suppose a situation with sexuals.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this case is about determining what sexual

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Speaker 1: harassment is and also about untangling what the power dynamics

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Speaker 1: were because Blake Lively is more famous, but Justin Baldoni

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Speaker 1: was the director.

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Speaker 4: So his whole counter argument to her is that she

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Speaker 4: was definitely the more powerful one. That's his argument. Now

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Speaker 4: we have talked before about that's not really true because

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Speaker 4: it's not like it's just little Justin and his little movie.

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Speaker 4: He had massive billionaire backers on that. It was his

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Speaker 4: company was partly was he the director, the actor.

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Speaker 2: He also was co owner of the studio.

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Speaker 4: But you can't argue with the fact that Blakely almost

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Speaker 4: by association, is a very powerful Hollywood figure because Ryan

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Speaker 4: Reynolds because of his depth of connection in Hollywood, and

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Speaker 4: then he brings in, as he does in his complaints, Taylor.

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Speaker 3: Swift, a powerful friend.

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Speaker 4: So his argument is they're the establishment and they're after me.

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Speaker 2: So he's doing They call it DAVO, don't they, which

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Speaker 2: stands for deny attack reverse victim inifenda. Right, So she

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Speaker 2: accused him of sexual harassment. He's straight away done all

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Speaker 2: of these things and said he's actually really the victim

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Speaker 2: here of Blake and her powerful friends.

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Speaker 4: And she says, exactly as you're saying to me, and

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Speaker 4: she said, this is one hundred percent out of the

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Speaker 4: Abuses playbook, And there's a lot about this that does

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Speaker 4: feel like that to me. Like one of the things

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Speaker 4: that's happened today is this this big transcript of this

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Speaker 4: Voicemailly Lefter at Thursday or whatever, after she'd said some

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Speaker 4: things to him and he was like, I'm so sorry,

387
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Speaker 4: I'm not perfect, but I'm willing to apologize and learn

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Speaker 4: and all these things. And so many women hear those

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Speaker 4: kind of words and have almost a visceral reaction to

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Speaker 4: having been on the other end of this.

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Speaker 1: So people who saw that ten minute clip, some women

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Speaker 1: who saw it said, yeah, she looks uncomfortable, and that

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Speaker 1: levity or her joking is an attempt to lighten the

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Speaker 1: mood because she's uncomfortable, right.

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Speaker 3: And because she's at work.

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Speaker 1: Yes, then there's a seven minute voice note which you're

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Speaker 1: talking about. Holly sent it two am in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a discussion that we we have a little bit

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Speaker 1: of context for. So you might have seen have you

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Speaker 1: seen the Game of Thrones text message?

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Speaker 2: I've heard about CALLSI, but I don't watch Game of Thrones,

402
00:18:43,422 --> 00:18:45,302
Speaker 2: so the little references are a little bit lost on me.

403
00:18:45,821 --> 00:18:48,302
Speaker 2: But to me, this is getting so petty. I know

404
00:18:48,341 --> 00:18:51,461
Speaker 2: that's why everyone's excited about it. But the problem is

405
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Speaker 2: the way that you'd behave if you're Baldoni and innocent

406
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Speaker 2: is the way that you would also behave if you

407
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Speaker 2: are Baldonian smearing her. And that's what's confusing, right, because

408
00:19:01,581 --> 00:19:05,021
Speaker 2: it seems like we're getting dragged into this debate about

409
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Speaker 2: power and all of those things. And in fact, I

410
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Speaker 2: was having a conversation with someone on the weekend, a

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Speaker 2: woman who said, I just don't understand how you can

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Speaker 2: sexually harass someone who's more powerful than you, meaning, how

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Speaker 2: can it even be sexual harassment by Baldoni since Blake

414
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Speaker 2: Lively was so powerful. And I was really shocked by that,

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Speaker 2: firstly the belief that you can't be sexually harassed if

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Speaker 2: you've got power, and secondly the idea that she had

417
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Speaker 2: all the power. Yeah.

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00:19:32,621 --> 00:19:34,982
Speaker 1: True, And I think that the other thing I keep

419
00:19:35,022 --> 00:19:37,621
Speaker 1: thinking with all of these leaks, whether it's a text

420
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Speaker 1: message or an audio leak, is how the Internet does

421
00:19:41,621 --> 00:19:44,061
Speaker 1: such a good job of stripping everything of context, and

422
00:19:44,101 --> 00:19:46,942
Speaker 1: how context is absolutely everything. So we know that there

423
00:19:46,942 --> 00:19:49,302
Speaker 1: was this text message about Game of Thrones. She referred

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Speaker 1: to herself as Kalisi basically that she has these dragons.

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Speaker 1: What she was trying to say was that Taylor Swift

426
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Speaker 1: and Ryan Reynolds are on her team and they.

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Speaker 5: Are a formidable force.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they are, you know, creative giants, and I'm so

429
00:20:03,422 --> 00:20:06,022
Speaker 1: lucky to have these people support me. Then he sends

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Speaker 1: this big message apologizing for we don't know what, we have,

431
00:20:09,942 --> 00:20:11,582
Speaker 1: no idea what's even going on anymore.

432
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Speaker 2: But if he said a long text message apologizing, surely

433
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Speaker 2: he's apologizing for something. What I don't understand is it

434
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Speaker 2: just feels very, very reminiscent of Amber Heard and Johnny Depp,

435
00:20:22,861 --> 00:20:28,302
Speaker 2: where I've been shocked at how eager everybody is to

436
00:20:28,462 --> 00:20:30,502
Speaker 2: turn on her again exactly.

437
00:20:30,581 --> 00:20:32,382
Speaker 4: I remember when we talked about this when we came

438
00:20:32,422 --> 00:20:35,181
Speaker 4: back after Christmas, Jesse, you said people have only got

439
00:20:35,182 --> 00:20:37,902
Speaker 4: the capacity to change their minds about somebody once. And

440
00:20:37,942 --> 00:20:39,621
Speaker 4: you were saying that in reference to the fact that

441
00:20:39,661 --> 00:20:42,861
Speaker 4: everybody was very quick to jump into the Blake Lively

442
00:20:42,942 --> 00:20:46,022
Speaker 4: mean girl idea. We were all like, yes, not when

443
00:20:46,061 --> 00:20:48,262
Speaker 4: I say we, we weren't, but the culture was like yes,

444
00:20:48,381 --> 00:20:50,702
Speaker 4: love that always thought there's something dodgy about her.

445
00:20:50,742 --> 00:20:53,302
Speaker 2: Do you mean the first time the first time around, right, yeah.

446
00:20:53,542 --> 00:20:55,982
Speaker 4: And then when that New York Times piece came out,

447
00:20:56,621 --> 00:21:00,341
Speaker 4: I saw people on the internet who had roundly criticized

448
00:21:00,341 --> 00:21:03,141
Speaker 4: Lively suddenly saying, oh my god, I can't believe it.

449
00:21:03,262 --> 00:21:04,982
Speaker 4: We were wrong, We were played.

450
00:21:05,462 --> 00:21:07,221
Speaker 3: You know, this is terrible. Da da da da da.

451
00:21:07,262 --> 00:21:10,341
Speaker 4: And we were like, Okay, everybody's changed their minds. Everybody's

452
00:21:10,422 --> 00:21:14,262
Speaker 4: changed their minds again. I am so disheartened. I'm not angry,

453
00:21:14,341 --> 00:21:18,542
Speaker 4: I'm just disappointed. I'm so disheartened that my feed is

454
00:21:18,621 --> 00:21:22,381
Speaker 4: full of mostly women, many young, very smart women, sitting

455
00:21:22,381 --> 00:21:24,662
Speaker 4: in front of microphones or sitting in front of green screens,

456
00:21:24,702 --> 00:21:28,581
Speaker 4: pointing at stuff. And it's all telling me again, why

457
00:21:28,861 --> 00:21:33,101
Speaker 4: Blake Lively is a conniving, you know, power hungry woman

458
00:21:33,141 --> 00:21:34,901
Speaker 4: who's trying to ruin this man's life.

459
00:21:34,982 --> 00:21:36,341
Speaker 3: I saw one yesterday. I didn't click.

460
00:21:36,381 --> 00:21:38,822
Speaker 4: That was like Colleen Hoover isn't innocent and all this

461
00:21:38,821 --> 00:21:41,861
Speaker 4: this is what she's done now, and it's like goldfish,

462
00:21:41,901 --> 00:21:42,862
Speaker 4: We are goldfish.

463
00:21:42,901 --> 00:21:43,101
Speaker 3: It's that.

464
00:21:43,222 --> 00:21:45,942
Speaker 4: Don't we remember that It was just revealed to us

465
00:21:45,982 --> 00:21:48,901
Speaker 4: by some of the best journalists in the world that

466
00:21:48,982 --> 00:21:52,782
Speaker 4: Blake Lively was the subject of a very highly orchestrated

467
00:21:52,982 --> 00:21:58,061
Speaker 4: paid campaign of harassment. And now we're all just like

468
00:21:58,341 --> 00:22:00,581
Speaker 4: wilfully falling into line on it again.

469
00:22:00,742 --> 00:22:04,302
Speaker 1: With everything we know about the Me too movement and

470
00:22:04,821 --> 00:22:08,941
Speaker 1: this industry. It's interesting how quickly, firstly, we can forget that,

471
00:22:09,022 --> 00:22:11,262
Speaker 1: you know what, maybe Blake Lively is a mean girl.

472
00:22:11,341 --> 00:22:14,782
Speaker 1: What sure mean girls can be the victims of sexual harassment.

473
00:22:14,901 --> 00:22:16,141
Speaker 5: Right, So there's a thing that.

474
00:22:16,061 --> 00:22:18,302
Speaker 4: They hated each other from the get go, and they're

475
00:22:18,302 --> 00:22:21,341
Speaker 4: contractually obliged to make this movie together, and it was

476
00:22:21,381 --> 00:22:24,222
Speaker 4: the most miserable twelve to eighteen months of their lives

477
00:22:24,302 --> 00:22:26,621
Speaker 4: once you threw in the writer's strike and COVID and whatever.

478
00:22:27,061 --> 00:22:30,061
Speaker 4: And maybe it was awful for both of them, you know,

479
00:22:30,302 --> 00:22:32,221
Speaker 4: But if he did the things that she said in

480
00:22:32,222 --> 00:22:34,022
Speaker 4: that New York Times piece that he did, then he

481
00:22:34,141 --> 00:22:36,302
Speaker 4: sexually harassed her, whether he likes her or not.

482
00:22:36,422 --> 00:22:39,821
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just I don't see why she would

483
00:22:39,901 --> 00:22:41,782
Speaker 2: make this up like I don't. So when you just

484
00:22:41,821 --> 00:22:44,821
Speaker 2: go to first principles, what is in this for her?

485
00:22:44,861 --> 00:22:47,582
Speaker 2: She doesn't need the money. Everyone had sort of forgotten

486
00:22:47,621 --> 00:22:50,061
Speaker 2: about that before, right, it's brought it all up again.

487
00:22:50,502 --> 00:22:52,821
Speaker 2: She would have known, They would have known that, lawyers

488
00:22:52,821 --> 00:22:54,781
Speaker 2: would have warned her, and she would have understood this

489
00:22:54,861 --> 00:22:57,381
Speaker 2: is not her first radio what this is going to

490
00:22:57,422 --> 00:22:59,941
Speaker 2: bring and her Johnny Depp. She already knows it's the

491
00:22:59,982 --> 00:23:03,942
Speaker 2: same people involved, for Heaven's sake, and she did it anyway.

492
00:23:04,422 --> 00:23:07,982
Speaker 1: So the Internet has had to I'm gonna say, come

493
00:23:08,061 --> 00:23:10,302
Speaker 1: up with a theory as to why she's done it.

494
00:23:10,341 --> 00:23:13,661
Speaker 1: And I say this not because it's one tiny TikTok

495
00:23:13,742 --> 00:23:16,502
Speaker 1: video I've seen. It is wall to wall, all over

496
00:23:16,542 --> 00:23:19,222
Speaker 1: my TikTok, all over my YouTube, all over my Instagram.

497
00:23:19,262 --> 00:23:22,742
Speaker 1: This is a story that exclusively women. I haven't seen

498
00:23:22,742 --> 00:23:25,661
Speaker 1: any men weighing into this. Are telling Candice Owens, the

499
00:23:25,742 --> 00:23:28,742
Speaker 1: right wing commentator in the US, it is to me too.

500
00:23:28,901 --> 00:23:31,341
Speaker 1: The last twenty four hours. This is a story is

501
00:23:31,381 --> 00:23:34,061
Speaker 1: that Ryan, when Reynolds was away he was doing his

502
00:23:34,422 --> 00:23:38,742
Speaker 1: Deadpool thing, he then comes back. This is a total theory.

503
00:23:38,742 --> 00:23:41,382
Speaker 1: There is no evidence to support this. That he then

504
00:23:41,502 --> 00:23:45,462
Speaker 1: sees the voice memos and the text messages between Blake

505
00:23:45,502 --> 00:23:48,621
Speaker 1: Lively and Justin Baldoni. The story goes that Blake Lively

506
00:23:48,742 --> 00:23:50,581
Speaker 1: couldn't help it. She of course fell in love with

507
00:23:50,661 --> 00:23:53,701
Speaker 1: Justin Baldoni like she had caught feelings for him, and

508
00:23:53,742 --> 00:23:57,662
Speaker 1: he probably either rejected her or their relationship cross the line.

509
00:23:57,742 --> 00:24:00,181
Speaker 2: She was pregnant and she just had her fourth baby.

510
00:24:00,381 --> 00:24:03,061
Speaker 2: That's when I'm feeling my most horning one.

511
00:24:02,942 --> 00:24:05,542
Speaker 4: Of This is one of the most common tropes of

512
00:24:05,581 --> 00:24:08,902
Speaker 4: an abuser. Again, she was obsessed with me, She fell

513
00:24:08,942 --> 00:24:11,821
Speaker 4: in the last me. She couldn't like, she wouldn't leave

514
00:24:11,821 --> 00:24:12,422
Speaker 4: me alone.

515
00:24:12,661 --> 00:24:16,382
Speaker 1: So then what happens is Ryan Reynolds becomes jealous, controlling,

516
00:24:16,422 --> 00:24:18,542
Speaker 1: and possessive, and then we go back into the history

517
00:24:18,542 --> 00:24:21,502
Speaker 1: of his relationship with Scarlett your Hansen and Alanas Morris said,

518
00:24:21,581 --> 00:24:23,461
Speaker 1: we won't go down there, but got to do with

519
00:24:23,542 --> 00:24:24,782
Speaker 1: it may that's where we're going.

520
00:24:24,821 --> 00:24:26,382
Speaker 3: I blame true crime podcasts.

521
00:24:26,942 --> 00:24:31,421
Speaker 4: Every single person on the Internet thinks they consol everything.

522
00:24:31,581 --> 00:24:33,821
Speaker 1: But then what happens is he gets very jealous and

523
00:24:33,861 --> 00:24:38,661
Speaker 1: controlling and black lively panics and women are vengeful liars.

524
00:24:38,702 --> 00:24:39,262
Speaker 5: Everyone knows that.

525
00:24:40,061 --> 00:24:42,981
Speaker 1: And then she just goes ah, he sexually assaulted me,

526
00:24:43,702 --> 00:24:46,181
Speaker 1: and I feel very uncomfortable with Justin Baldoni. It was

527
00:24:46,182 --> 00:24:51,022
Speaker 1: the only way to create her very controlling husband. And

528
00:24:51,101 --> 00:24:54,461
Speaker 1: then everything turned and Justin Baldoni was totally blindsided. He

529
00:24:54,542 --> 00:24:55,621
Speaker 1: was like, I thought we were friends.

530
00:24:56,101 --> 00:24:58,982
Speaker 2: He apologized for the thing he supposedly didn't do. Yes,

531
00:24:59,262 --> 00:25:05,902
Speaker 2: it's so absurd, and to me it's just, oh, this

532
00:25:05,982 --> 00:25:08,821
Speaker 2: is what happens when a woman stands up to a

533
00:25:08,861 --> 00:25:11,981
Speaker 2: powerful man in Hollywood. And I just don't buy this

534
00:25:12,061 --> 00:25:14,222
Speaker 2: whole thing. If she was more powerful than him, it's

535
00:25:14,262 --> 00:25:18,061
Speaker 2: like he had billions behind him. He's co owner in

536
00:25:18,101 --> 00:25:22,262
Speaker 2: Wayfair at the studio. He's a billionaire Justin Beldoni. May

537
00:25:22,782 --> 00:25:27,701
Speaker 2: not be as Internet famous before as Blake Lively, but

538
00:25:27,861 --> 00:25:28,941
Speaker 2: he's got money.

539
00:25:29,542 --> 00:25:32,701
Speaker 4: And also we need to remember because even I said before,

540
00:25:33,101 --> 00:25:35,101
Speaker 4: if it's true what he did to her on set,

541
00:25:35,141 --> 00:25:39,022
Speaker 4: he's sexually harassed her. Actually, we don't know whether or

542
00:25:39,022 --> 00:25:41,141
Speaker 4: not it's true. That's going to court. But what we

543
00:25:41,302 --> 00:25:44,061
Speaker 4: do know, and he is not disputing, and there is

544
00:25:44,182 --> 00:25:46,581
Speaker 4: lots and lots of evidence of, is that he did

545
00:25:46,861 --> 00:25:50,542
Speaker 4: orchestrate a massive smear campaign against her. We've all seen

546
00:25:50,581 --> 00:25:53,661
Speaker 4: those text messages. They are not really in dispute that

547
00:25:53,742 --> 00:25:57,022
Speaker 4: he sent a text message that showed Hailey Bieber being

548
00:25:57,182 --> 00:25:59,341
Speaker 4: branded a terrible person to work with, a meal with

549
00:25:59,381 --> 00:26:03,101
Speaker 4: the words we need something like this ye to his team.

550
00:26:03,502 --> 00:26:07,542
Speaker 4: So we have the evidence that this is not organic.

551
00:26:08,022 --> 00:26:09,542
Speaker 4: And yet again We're just like.

552
00:26:09,702 --> 00:26:14,862
Speaker 2: Sure, but Hoole remember his publicist, the crisis manager. There

553
00:26:14,901 --> 00:26:18,422
Speaker 2: was also text messages from her basically saying the Internet's

554
00:26:18,462 --> 00:26:20,861
Speaker 2: doing her work for us because the Internet hates women.

555
00:26:20,982 --> 00:26:23,741
Speaker 2: And we've got all these plans ready to go, and

556
00:26:23,782 --> 00:26:25,941
Speaker 2: we've got all of this campaign money to do this

557
00:26:26,341 --> 00:26:29,942
Speaker 2: the dark arts of smear. But guess what, the narrative

558
00:26:30,022 --> 00:26:33,382
Speaker 2: of Blake Lively being a bitch is just taking off

559
00:26:33,381 --> 00:26:34,942
Speaker 2: on its own, and it just feels like we're there

560
00:26:34,982 --> 00:26:39,581
Speaker 2: again after the break, the one thing men on the

561
00:26:39,661 --> 00:26:42,502
Speaker 2: dating apps are asking for, and you know what, we

562
00:26:42,581 --> 00:26:43,341
Speaker 2: think it's a con.

563
00:26:45,702 --> 00:26:50,181
Speaker 4: Australia's favorite Kennedy has gone back home, and like Grace Tam,

564
00:26:50,222 --> 00:26:53,181
Speaker 4: it appears that Caroline Kennedy is not there to fuck spiders.

565
00:26:53,621 --> 00:26:57,662
Speaker 4: Until January, JFK's daughter was living in Canberra as Australia's

566
00:26:57,742 --> 00:27:00,502
Speaker 4: ambassador to the USA, and we bloody loved her for it.

567
00:27:00,581 --> 00:27:03,742
Speaker 4: During that time, she stayed dignified and silent about her attention.

568
00:27:03,901 --> 00:27:07,182
Speaker 4: Caught in cousin Robert or RFK as he's known, while

569
00:27:07,222 --> 00:27:10,462
Speaker 4: he ran for President slam Donald Trump then changed his mind,

570
00:27:10,502 --> 00:27:12,502
Speaker 4: stood down and joined Trump's campaign.

571
00:27:12,502 --> 00:27:14,542
Speaker 1: We could do a segment on her Everyone has a cousin,

572
00:27:14,621 --> 00:27:15,942
Speaker 1: Robert True.

573
00:27:16,302 --> 00:27:18,621
Speaker 4: This week he's likely to be confirmed as the Secretary

574
00:27:18,621 --> 00:27:20,821
Speaker 4: of the Department of Health and Human Services, where he's

575
00:27:20,821 --> 00:27:24,502
Speaker 4: going to run a program called MAHA Make America Healthy Again.

576
00:27:24,942 --> 00:27:27,502
Speaker 4: There's just one or two little problems with that, Caroline

577
00:27:27,542 --> 00:27:30,702
Speaker 4: Kennedy says in a scathing letter she wrote and read yesterday.

578
00:27:30,861 --> 00:27:32,381
Speaker 3: Here's a little bit of what she says.

579
00:27:32,621 --> 00:27:37,302
Speaker 8: He likes any relevant government, financial management, or medical experience.

580
00:27:38,182 --> 00:27:43,542
Speaker 8: His views on vaccines are dangerous and wilfully misinformed. These

581
00:27:43,542 --> 00:27:47,822
Speaker 8: facts alone should be disqualifying, but he has personal qualities

582
00:27:48,101 --> 00:27:52,222
Speaker 8: related to this job, which for me pose even greater concern.

583
00:27:52,581 --> 00:27:54,981
Speaker 8: I've known Bobby my whole life. We grew up together.

584
00:27:55,621 --> 00:27:58,582
Speaker 8: It's no surprise that he keeps birds of prey as pets,

585
00:27:59,222 --> 00:28:02,581
Speaker 8: because Bobby himself is a predator. I watch his younger

586
00:28:02,621 --> 00:28:05,502
Speaker 8: brothers and cousins follow him down the path of drug addiction.

587
00:28:06,462 --> 00:28:09,661
Speaker 8: His basement, his garage, his dorm room were always the

588
00:28:09,702 --> 00:28:12,941
Speaker 8: center of the action where drugs were available, and he

589
00:28:13,022 --> 00:28:16,302
Speaker 8: enjoyed showing off how he put baby chickens and mice

590
00:28:16,381 --> 00:28:19,181
Speaker 8: in a blender to feed to his hawks. It was

591
00:28:19,222 --> 00:28:23,502
Speaker 8: often a perverse scene of despair and violence, while Bobby

592
00:28:23,542 --> 00:28:28,022
Speaker 8: has gone on to misrepresent, lie and cheat his way

593
00:28:28,022 --> 00:28:32,902
Speaker 8: through life. Today, while he may encourage a younger generation

594
00:28:33,502 --> 00:28:38,181
Speaker 8: to attend AA meetings, Bobby is addicted to attention and power.

595
00:28:38,661 --> 00:28:41,782
Speaker 8: Bobby prays on the desperation of parents of sick children,

596
00:28:42,302 --> 00:28:47,181
Speaker 8: vaccinating his own kids while building a following hypocritically discouraging

597
00:28:47,222 --> 00:28:49,102
Speaker 8: other parents from vaccinating theirs.

598
00:28:49,582 --> 00:28:52,022
Speaker 2: She's definitely wearing a fuck Bobby T shirt all over

599
00:28:52,062 --> 00:28:55,502
Speaker 2: the internet. I found this extraordinary. She's only just left

600
00:28:55,542 --> 00:29:00,421
Speaker 2: Australia as America's ambassador to Australia, and she said like

601
00:29:00,502 --> 00:29:02,422
Speaker 2: a really good time when she was here. She went

602
00:29:02,462 --> 00:29:05,062
Speaker 2: on like the shitbox rally. She was like no airs

603
00:29:05,102 --> 00:29:07,701
Speaker 2: and graces. She's a pretty extraordinary woman, and she doesn't

604
00:29:07,742 --> 00:29:12,262
Speaker 2: talk about her family very much, as she pointed out.

605
00:29:12,422 --> 00:29:15,702
Speaker 2: And what's happening at the moment is that there's a

606
00:29:15,782 --> 00:29:18,662
Speaker 2: system in America where the president nominates all the people

607
00:29:18,702 --> 00:29:20,382
Speaker 2: that he wants to be in charge of things, and

608
00:29:20,422 --> 00:29:23,942
Speaker 2: then they have to go before Parliament essentially, and they

609
00:29:24,142 --> 00:29:26,542
Speaker 2: questioned about whether they're suitable for the job, and of

610
00:29:26,542 --> 00:29:29,261
Speaker 2: course none of them are suitable for the job, and

611
00:29:29,782 --> 00:29:32,022
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter because they're just all sailing through.

612
00:29:32,542 --> 00:29:34,422
Speaker 1: So it's more just a symbolic process.

613
00:29:34,742 --> 00:29:38,822
Speaker 2: Well we're not in Kansas anymore, Toto, So like before,

614
00:29:38,862 --> 00:29:41,142
Speaker 2: it was not a symbolic process. It was designed to

615
00:29:42,062 --> 00:29:46,622
Speaker 2: weed out or expose any people who weren't appropriate. But

616
00:29:46,742 --> 00:29:50,422
Speaker 2: also back then, in the before times, only people who

617
00:29:50,462 --> 00:29:55,102
Speaker 2: were qualified were nominated for these important positions. So we're

618
00:29:55,142 --> 00:29:58,742
Speaker 2: in completely uncharted waters and it's basically just kiss the ring.

619
00:29:58,982 --> 00:30:01,302
Speaker 2: If Donald Trump wants this guy through, he's going to go.

620
00:30:02,542 --> 00:30:05,422
Speaker 2: But what's most disturbing to me about this, I mean

621
00:30:05,462 --> 00:30:08,382
Speaker 2: calling him a predator, also a hypocrete. He's a former

622
00:30:08,422 --> 00:30:11,502
Speaker 2: drug addict and ourcoholic. But you know people can get

623
00:30:11,582 --> 00:30:16,902
Speaker 2: through that. When she said he's addicted to attention and power,

624
00:30:17,302 --> 00:30:20,262
Speaker 2: it's like, yep, sounds about right.

625
00:30:20,822 --> 00:30:22,102
Speaker 5: He'll set right in with that administent.

626
00:30:22,182 --> 00:30:24,022
Speaker 4: What it is in class Because what I really admire

627
00:30:24,022 --> 00:30:26,461
Speaker 4: about this is she kept her powder dry the whole time.

628
00:30:26,661 --> 00:30:29,822
Speaker 4: She said, you know, when she was ambassador to Australia,

629
00:30:30,342 --> 00:30:32,421
Speaker 4: she was in a government position, it wouldn't have been

630
00:30:32,422 --> 00:30:34,421
Speaker 4: appropriate for her to talk about this. It wouldn't have

631
00:30:34,422 --> 00:30:37,302
Speaker 4: been appropriate. So it's like that's how people.

632
00:30:37,142 --> 00:30:37,742
Speaker 3: Used to be.

633
00:30:39,302 --> 00:30:42,221
Speaker 4: Character used to it, and now she's in a very

634
00:30:42,302 --> 00:30:48,022
Speaker 4: well considered way, just opened fire. You got a little

635
00:30:48,022 --> 00:30:48,702
Speaker 4: bit of a dilemma.

636
00:30:48,702 --> 00:30:52,342
Speaker 5: There quite a dilemma.

637
00:30:52,502 --> 00:30:56,102
Speaker 2: We have a dilemma from a listener who is newly divorced,

638
00:30:56,262 --> 00:30:59,701
Speaker 2: and on the apps, she writes, I'm interested in your

639
00:30:59,742 --> 00:31:02,782
Speaker 2: opinion about comfort zones and whether it's okay to want

640
00:31:02,782 --> 00:31:05,701
Speaker 2: to stay in them. The constant demand on Hinge and

641
00:31:05,782 --> 00:31:08,542
Speaker 2: Bumble and everywhere else is that men want a woman

642
00:31:08,582 --> 00:31:10,982
Speaker 2: who is prepared to get out of her comfort zone.

643
00:31:11,382 --> 00:31:14,582
Speaker 2: There's a lot about being adventurous and keen to go

644
00:31:14,782 --> 00:31:18,421
Speaker 2: off the beaten path and challenge yourself. There's also a

645
00:31:18,502 --> 00:31:21,302
Speaker 2: widespread conviction that your willingness to get out of your

646
00:31:21,302 --> 00:31:24,742
Speaker 2: comfort zone reflects how evolved you are as a human being.

647
00:31:25,542 --> 00:31:27,582
Speaker 2: And she says, my response to all this is that

648
00:31:27,622 --> 00:31:30,382
Speaker 2: I'm really happy and comfortable in my comfort zone, hence

649
00:31:30,422 --> 00:31:32,662
Speaker 2: the name, and I can't think of anything I want

650
00:31:32,702 --> 00:31:35,622
Speaker 2: less in a new partner than some predetermined deal that

651
00:31:35,661 --> 00:31:38,902
Speaker 2: I will have to constantly and gleefully leap out of

652
00:31:38,942 --> 00:31:42,262
Speaker 2: my comfort zone at his behest. What is your opinion?

653
00:31:42,342 --> 00:31:46,022
Speaker 2: Am I just being too old or lazy? Comfort zone

654
00:31:46,022 --> 00:31:48,462
Speaker 2: living sounds incredibly appealing to me, But does that mean

655
00:31:48,502 --> 00:31:51,462
Speaker 2: I've been slacking off on the personal growth Jesse.

656
00:31:52,062 --> 00:31:53,942
Speaker 4: Do you think, by the way, that all this talk

657
00:31:53,942 --> 00:31:56,102
Speaker 4: of getting out of your comfort zone is just euphemism

658
00:31:56,182 --> 00:31:57,421
Speaker 4: for anal sex.

659
00:31:58,302 --> 00:32:02,262
Speaker 2: Yes, it's anal sex, and also can I fuck other women?

660
00:32:03,142 --> 00:32:05,142
Speaker 2: And will you be up for a threesome?

661
00:32:05,302 --> 00:32:07,102
Speaker 5: I was more thinking scuba di izing.

662
00:32:07,142 --> 00:32:12,941
Speaker 4: Yes, same, Actually it's a scuba diving is what the

663
00:32:12,982 --> 00:32:13,822
Speaker 4: men are talking about.

664
00:32:14,022 --> 00:32:16,782
Speaker 2: Yeah, but all of those there's a lot of judgment,

665
00:32:16,902 --> 00:32:19,221
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of subtext in all of that.

666
00:32:19,382 --> 00:32:23,181
Speaker 2: It's like, I don't want someone who is boring. I

667
00:32:23,222 --> 00:32:26,982
Speaker 2: want someone who is constantly willing to be uncomfortable, which

668
00:32:27,062 --> 00:32:30,342
Speaker 2: kind of means I always want you to do stuff

669
00:32:30,382 --> 00:32:31,262
Speaker 2: that you don't want to.

670
00:32:31,222 --> 00:32:34,662
Speaker 5: Do, yes, which I reckon isn't just in the dating world,

671
00:32:34,782 --> 00:32:36,822
Speaker 5: I reckon broadly. We're told to do that with.

672
00:32:37,182 --> 00:32:42,182
Speaker 1: Career, with our social lives, with our hobbies, with everything.

673
00:32:42,182 --> 00:32:44,501
Speaker 1: We're told that, you know, life begins at the end

674
00:32:44,542 --> 00:32:46,902
Speaker 1: of your comfort zone. There are all of those cliches.

675
00:32:47,462 --> 00:32:50,542
Speaker 1: I would say, though, firstly, this listener is being far

676
00:32:50,622 --> 00:32:54,062
Speaker 1: too hard on herself going on a dating app dating

677
00:32:54,742 --> 00:32:57,822
Speaker 1: is outside your comfort zone, you're already doing it, And

678
00:32:57,862 --> 00:33:03,501
Speaker 1: as someone who is incredibly risk averse, I totally relate.

679
00:33:03,582 --> 00:33:05,382
Speaker 1: I feel as though we all need to just hold

680
00:33:05,462 --> 00:33:07,542
Speaker 1: hands and give each other permission. You don't have to

681
00:33:07,661 --> 00:33:10,822
Speaker 1: jump out of high things. Don't have to go on

682
00:33:10,862 --> 00:33:12,461
Speaker 1: a plane and then jump out of the plane. If

683
00:33:12,502 --> 00:33:14,382
Speaker 1: that's not something you want to do.

684
00:33:14,422 --> 00:33:15,862
Speaker 2: You don't have to do anal if you don't want

685
00:33:15,902 --> 00:33:16,221
Speaker 2: to know.

686
00:33:16,782 --> 00:33:19,382
Speaker 5: If you do want to, that's also fine.

687
00:33:21,382 --> 00:33:23,382
Speaker 3: With the Carl and Jackie O show up in there

688
00:33:23,502 --> 00:33:24,062
Speaker 3: these days.

689
00:33:25,142 --> 00:33:27,342
Speaker 1: Like for some people outside of your comfort zone might

690
00:33:27,382 --> 00:33:29,302
Speaker 1: be going to a new restaurant, it might be trying

691
00:33:29,342 --> 00:33:32,902
Speaker 1: a new cocktail, and that is okay. I was reading

692
00:33:32,942 --> 00:33:36,461
Speaker 1: this theory by like a developmental psychologist who talked about

693
00:33:36,582 --> 00:33:38,542
Speaker 1: the zone of proximal development.

694
00:33:38,702 --> 00:33:39,661
Speaker 5: This is what I really like.

695
00:33:39,862 --> 00:33:41,782
Speaker 1: It's the idea that there's your comfort zone and then

696
00:33:41,862 --> 00:33:45,142
Speaker 1: just outside put your little toe there. It's how children learn.

697
00:33:45,462 --> 00:33:51,261
Speaker 1: Children don't go from crawling to jumping off captures. Yeah,

698
00:33:51,342 --> 00:33:53,782
Speaker 1: they take little steps, and we're allowed to take little

699
00:33:53,822 --> 00:33:54,622
Speaker 1: steps if we want.

700
00:33:54,782 --> 00:33:54,942
Speaker 2: So.

701
00:33:55,102 --> 00:33:57,542
Speaker 1: If someone on a dating app is like I want

702
00:33:57,582 --> 00:34:00,262
Speaker 1: to take you for some reason, I'm thinking of those

703
00:34:00,302 --> 00:34:03,102
Speaker 1: obstacle courses in mud. If someone wants to take you

704
00:34:03,142 --> 00:34:05,822
Speaker 1: on ostert tough mutter, I want to do that. I

705
00:34:05,822 --> 00:34:07,342
Speaker 1: think this is a really great way for us to

706
00:34:07,422 --> 00:34:09,422
Speaker 1: learn that we're not compatible. Go find the person who

707
00:34:09,622 --> 00:34:10,741
Speaker 1: likes to watch the things on the TV.

708
00:34:10,982 --> 00:34:15,221
Speaker 2: What's the difference, Holley, between just not liking something and

709
00:34:15,302 --> 00:34:18,142
Speaker 2: being out of your comfort zone camping, for example, hate it,

710
00:34:18,261 --> 00:34:20,582
Speaker 2: don't want to do it out of my comfort zone,

711
00:34:20,622 --> 00:34:23,301
Speaker 2: but also hate it don't want to do it? Is

712
00:34:23,342 --> 00:34:25,542
Speaker 2: the implication that if I did it and got out

713
00:34:25,582 --> 00:34:27,741
Speaker 2: of my comfort zone, then I might enjoy it, Or

714
00:34:27,822 --> 00:34:30,622
Speaker 2: is the implication that I should get out of my

715
00:34:30,622 --> 00:34:32,821
Speaker 2: comfort zone and do it because you want to do

716
00:34:32,862 --> 00:34:34,261
Speaker 2: it and you want me to do it.

717
00:34:34,462 --> 00:34:36,982
Speaker 4: I think that comfort zone's got a bad rap, as

718
00:34:37,062 --> 00:34:40,341
Speaker 4: Jesse just said. But you do have to change your

719
00:34:40,382 --> 00:34:43,102
Speaker 4: settings a little bit, and I mean like both literally

720
00:34:43,142 --> 00:34:46,542
Speaker 4: and figuratively in the dating world, because if you just

721
00:34:46,701 --> 00:34:49,782
Speaker 4: keep going for the same thing over and over again

722
00:34:49,822 --> 00:34:52,341
Speaker 4: and it's not working, and if you want someone who

723
00:34:52,382 --> 00:34:54,622
Speaker 4: only likes the things that you like and only wants

724
00:34:54,701 --> 00:34:56,821
Speaker 4: to do the things you want to do, and it's

725
00:34:56,862 --> 00:34:59,261
Speaker 4: not working, then maybe you do have to get out

726
00:34:59,261 --> 00:35:01,102
Speaker 4: of your comfort zone a bit. And I think that

727
00:35:01,142 --> 00:35:03,221
Speaker 4: one of the great things about meeting new people and

728
00:35:03,261 --> 00:35:05,622
Speaker 4: new relationships is that sometimes you try things that you

729
00:35:05,622 --> 00:35:07,902
Speaker 4: didn't think you liked and you do like them, right.

730
00:35:07,781 --> 00:35:11,062
Speaker 5: Like I'm thinking like an entre though not like an activity.

731
00:35:11,181 --> 00:35:13,102
Speaker 4: Yeah, but if you fall in love with someone who

732
00:35:13,181 --> 00:35:16,701
Speaker 4: really likes hiking or football or romanticy or whatever, and

733
00:35:16,741 --> 00:35:18,542
Speaker 4: they would like you to show an interest in it,

734
00:35:18,542 --> 00:35:20,421
Speaker 4: it's nice to show an interest in it, don't knock

735
00:35:20,422 --> 00:35:22,342
Speaker 4: it before you've tried it, And that's fair enough. I

736
00:35:22,382 --> 00:35:24,701
Speaker 4: think closed minded people are boring as all hell, and

737
00:35:24,822 --> 00:35:26,661
Speaker 4: just going I'm never going to do that, I'm never

738
00:35:26,701 --> 00:35:29,582
Speaker 4: going to try that is boring. But do you have

739
00:35:29,701 --> 00:35:33,821
Speaker 4: to constantly be like, I'll do what you like doing,

740
00:35:33,862 --> 00:35:35,941
Speaker 4: I'll go where you like going, and all of those things,

741
00:35:35,942 --> 00:35:38,422
Speaker 4: then no, because, depending on your age and your experience,

742
00:35:38,462 --> 00:35:41,542
Speaker 4: probably a lot of your comfort zone has been crafted

743
00:35:41,622 --> 00:35:47,222
Speaker 4: from wisdom like red flags for example, test to learn,

744
00:35:47,342 --> 00:35:49,701
Speaker 4: test and learn, and you know what a red flag is.

745
00:35:49,741 --> 00:35:55,341
Speaker 4: And a man who basically wants you to always feel uncertain, unsure, unsafe,

746
00:35:55,622 --> 00:35:57,341
Speaker 4: like if you want to be in a comfort zone

747
00:35:57,382 --> 00:35:59,502
Speaker 4: a relationship, that's probably because you've been there, and you

748
00:35:59,582 --> 00:36:03,062
Speaker 4: know your experience, your wisdom is telling you do not

749
00:36:03,181 --> 00:36:05,821
Speaker 4: take that risk. So there's risk a version to like

750
00:36:06,542 --> 00:36:08,982
Speaker 4: going on a bushwalk, and then there's risk a version

751
00:36:09,022 --> 00:36:10,902
Speaker 4: to a guy who you know is just going to

752
00:36:10,942 --> 00:36:12,462
Speaker 4: make you keep you on the end of a string

753
00:36:12,502 --> 00:36:14,502
Speaker 4: and not call you every three days or whatever it is.

754
00:36:14,542 --> 00:36:14,741
Speaker 3: You know.

755
00:36:14,902 --> 00:36:16,862
Speaker 4: I think that a lot to listen to your instinct,

756
00:36:16,862 --> 00:36:18,461
Speaker 4: and that might keep you in your comfort zone.

757
00:36:18,582 --> 00:36:20,022
Speaker 5: I think a lot of people don't know what to

758
00:36:20,062 --> 00:36:21,062
Speaker 5: write on their apps.

759
00:36:21,462 --> 00:36:23,901
Speaker 1: I don't think they know what tagline to have, and

760
00:36:23,942 --> 00:36:26,502
Speaker 1: so they just say things like like's adventure.

761
00:36:26,622 --> 00:36:31,181
Speaker 2: I think he's actually talking to his former partner these yes,

762
00:36:31,701 --> 00:36:34,982
Speaker 2: I think that they're talking about you know, certainly, by

763
00:36:35,022 --> 00:36:39,662
Speaker 2: the time a relationship ends, it's not exciting, it's not fun,

764
00:36:40,221 --> 00:36:43,861
Speaker 2: it's not surprising. And that goes from everything to what

765
00:36:43,902 --> 00:36:46,062
Speaker 2: you eat every night, to what you do, to the

766
00:36:46,102 --> 00:36:49,382
Speaker 2: sex that you have, quite literally, and I think that,

767
00:36:50,062 --> 00:36:53,342
Speaker 2: you know, part of the appeal of dating someone new

768
00:36:54,221 --> 00:36:58,102
Speaker 2: is seeing a new version of yourself reflected back. And

769
00:36:58,181 --> 00:37:01,142
Speaker 2: I wonder if this is why so many men often

770
00:37:01,221 --> 00:37:05,022
Speaker 2: date want to date younger women because they are more malleable.

771
00:37:05,582 --> 00:37:09,102
Speaker 2: Older women we know through testing and learning, through trial

772
00:37:09,142 --> 00:37:12,862
Speaker 2: and error, that's what establishes our comfort zone. A comfort

773
00:37:12,942 --> 00:37:15,221
Speaker 2: zone might not be boring. A comfort zone might not

774
00:37:15,261 --> 00:37:17,982
Speaker 2: be sitting at home on the couch every night watching Netflix.

775
00:37:18,422 --> 00:37:22,022
Speaker 2: It might be just a word for the things that

776
00:37:22,062 --> 00:37:25,302
Speaker 2: we know, we enjoy, the things that we know nourish

777
00:37:25,382 --> 00:37:28,982
Speaker 2: us and make us feel good. And so by insisting

778
00:37:29,022 --> 00:37:31,861
Speaker 2: that someone gets out of that, the benefit of the

779
00:37:31,902 --> 00:37:35,781
Speaker 2: doubt reading of it is you might try something that

780
00:37:35,862 --> 00:37:38,102
Speaker 2: you also enjoy and then your comfort zone gets a

781
00:37:38,102 --> 00:37:41,622
Speaker 2: little bit wider. But I also know that it can

782
00:37:41,741 --> 00:37:45,102
Speaker 2: often be a bit of a gas lighting. Is overused,

783
00:37:45,142 --> 00:37:47,341
Speaker 2: but a bit of a trick because there's a big

784
00:37:47,382 --> 00:37:51,381
Speaker 2: moral implication in there. There's a big moral.

785
00:37:51,062 --> 00:37:53,181
Speaker 1: That discomfort is always better than comforting.

786
00:37:52,902 --> 00:37:55,901
Speaker 2: Correct, and that you're a bit sad, you're a bit

787
00:37:55,902 --> 00:37:58,901
Speaker 2: of a loser, you're not very fun or exciting, you're

788
00:37:58,902 --> 00:38:00,661
Speaker 2: a kill joy if you have a stay in your

789
00:38:00,661 --> 00:38:03,661
Speaker 2: comfort zone. I know when I started a job that

790
00:38:03,822 --> 00:38:06,102
Speaker 2: was an absolute disaster and I should have got the

791
00:38:06,102 --> 00:38:09,221
Speaker 2: hell out of there. I kept saying to myself, maybe

792
00:38:09,261 --> 00:38:12,301
Speaker 2: I'm just out of my comfort zone, and maybe this

793
00:38:12,382 --> 00:38:14,301
Speaker 2: is what it's meant to feel like, and I've also

794
00:38:14,422 --> 00:38:17,261
Speaker 2: said that to myself in really bad relationships. Maybe this

795
00:38:17,422 --> 00:38:20,661
Speaker 2: is what love feels like, because it's so dramatic, and

796
00:38:20,701 --> 00:38:23,261
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel good a lot of the time, and

797
00:38:23,622 --> 00:38:25,622
Speaker 2: it's just not always true.

798
00:38:25,902 --> 00:38:26,502
Speaker 5: In a moment.

799
00:38:26,902 --> 00:38:29,261
Speaker 1: Married at First Sight is back, and we have a

800
00:38:29,302 --> 00:38:32,022
Speaker 1: theory about its very sinister origins.

801
00:38:32,822 --> 00:38:35,582
Speaker 2: Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We

802
00:38:35,701 --> 00:38:39,741
Speaker 2: drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and

803
00:38:39,822 --> 00:38:42,302
Speaker 2: me A subscribers follow the link in the show notes

804
00:38:42,302 --> 00:38:44,382
Speaker 2: to get us in your ears five days a week,

805
00:38:44,741 --> 00:38:47,341
Speaker 2: and a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.

806
00:38:52,062 --> 00:38:55,261
Speaker 5: I'm scared that he's going to be really disappointing.

807
00:38:57,382 --> 00:38:59,861
Speaker 7: I must admit, when I found out there was a

808
00:38:59,902 --> 00:39:01,822
Speaker 7: match for me, I was genuinely shocked.

809
00:39:02,261 --> 00:39:04,582
Speaker 1: Where in the world are they going to find someone

810
00:39:04,622 --> 00:39:04,902
Speaker 1: from me?

811
00:39:05,542 --> 00:39:08,102
Speaker 6: Before you start to worry, I assure you there's nothing

812
00:39:08,221 --> 00:39:09,381
Speaker 6: fundamentally wrong with me.

813
00:39:10,342 --> 00:39:13,142
Speaker 4: Maths is back, Friends, The phenomenon that is Married at

814
00:39:13,142 --> 00:39:15,861
Speaker 4: First Sight started up its love machine on Sunday night,

815
00:39:16,342 --> 00:39:19,382
Speaker 4: and already we have had a groom saying that his

816
00:39:19,462 --> 00:39:21,662
Speaker 4: bride was not at all what he'd ordered. He wanted

817
00:39:21,701 --> 00:39:24,462
Speaker 4: someone petite, and that's not what he got. After that

818
00:39:24,582 --> 00:39:26,862
Speaker 4: nice man kissed his bride, he wiped his mouth in

819
00:39:26,942 --> 00:39:30,301
Speaker 4: something like disgust. We've also had a groom rejecting his

820
00:39:30,382 --> 00:39:32,862
Speaker 4: bride because she was too old. She was thirty seven

821
00:39:32,982 --> 00:39:34,062
Speaker 4: and he was thirty five.

822
00:39:35,582 --> 00:39:36,262
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

823
00:39:36,542 --> 00:39:39,782
Speaker 3: He specifically requested Mia, someone younger than him.

824
00:39:39,701 --> 00:39:43,142
Speaker 2: And petit and wanting to get out of her colon zone.

825
00:39:44,542 --> 00:39:46,741
Speaker 4: And a wedding that didn't even make it to the

826
00:39:46,781 --> 00:39:49,982
Speaker 4: cake cutting because of family dramas when the groom made

827
00:39:49,982 --> 00:39:53,341
Speaker 4: inappropriate comments to the bride'smaids and the bride's sister.

828
00:39:53,142 --> 00:39:54,542
Speaker 3: Decided to throw down about it.

829
00:39:55,022 --> 00:39:58,542
Speaker 4: Fair to say the twenty twenty five Maths contestants understand

830
00:39:58,622 --> 00:40:04,661
Speaker 4: the assignment, fighting, insults drama. Anyway, we don't really want

831
00:40:04,661 --> 00:40:06,542
Speaker 4: to talk about Maths so much as we want to

832
00:40:06,582 --> 00:40:10,022
Speaker 4: talk about the straight line between our obsession with this

833
00:40:10,261 --> 00:40:15,262
Speaker 4: drama field Reality TV and a certain former politician from Ohio, USA.

834
00:40:16,062 --> 00:40:18,261
Speaker 4: Over the summer, I watched the Netflix documentary about the

835
00:40:18,342 --> 00:40:20,542
Speaker 4: Jerry Springer show. You did too, Jesse, that I did.

836
00:40:20,822 --> 00:40:23,062
Speaker 4: I'm sure you lived through the Jerry Springer years me

837
00:40:23,102 --> 00:40:24,982
Speaker 4: And have you watched the Docoh? Yeah, I loved the doco.

838
00:40:25,102 --> 00:40:27,421
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was really good. It's called Fight's Camera Action.

839
00:40:28,582 --> 00:40:30,942
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody knew how crazy this show was

840
00:40:30,942 --> 00:40:31,301
Speaker 2: going to be.

841
00:40:31,422 --> 00:40:35,022
Speaker 7: I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize for everything

842
00:40:35,062 --> 00:40:36,462
Speaker 7: I've ever done.

843
00:40:36,622 --> 00:40:41,022
Speaker 4: I have ruined the culture and that talk show in

844
00:40:41,022 --> 00:40:43,462
Speaker 4: in Verdi Commas, it became less and less of a

845
00:40:43,502 --> 00:40:46,582
Speaker 4: talk show as it went on. Was an absolute phenomenon

846
00:40:46,661 --> 00:40:49,341
Speaker 4: of the nineties and noughties. The premise of Springer in

847
00:40:49,382 --> 00:40:51,261
Speaker 4: Case you don't Know or you didn't live through that

848
00:40:51,582 --> 00:40:54,062
Speaker 4: was to take what Oprah had turned to Gold, which

849
00:40:54,142 --> 00:40:59,022
Speaker 4: was like daytime talk confessional TV dealing with controversial topics,

850
00:40:59,221 --> 00:41:02,262
Speaker 4: and turn the drama up to eleven. The executive producer

851
00:41:02,302 --> 00:41:04,382
Speaker 4: was a guy called Richard Dominic, and he was interviewed

852
00:41:04,422 --> 00:41:06,421
Speaker 4: a lot in this doco, and he said his goal

853
00:41:06,622 --> 00:41:09,062
Speaker 4: was to make TV you could watch with the sound off.

854
00:41:09,741 --> 00:41:12,221
Speaker 4: He wanted to continue to push to extremes. He's on

855
00:41:12,261 --> 00:41:14,062
Speaker 4: record in this doco was saying, if you could film

856
00:41:14,062 --> 00:41:15,142
Speaker 4: someone killing someone.

857
00:41:14,902 --> 00:41:15,302
Speaker 3: He would.

858
00:41:15,781 --> 00:41:17,942
Speaker 2: I thought that was so interesting and such an interesting

859
00:41:17,982 --> 00:41:19,622
Speaker 2: way of putting it. The thing about watching it with

860
00:41:19,622 --> 00:41:21,622
Speaker 2: the sound off, and what he was saying is if

861
00:41:21,661 --> 00:41:25,942
Speaker 2: you were flicking through the channels, you would see something

862
00:41:26,102 --> 00:41:30,181
Speaker 2: physically so surprising, like guests throwing chairs and punching each other,

863
00:41:30,622 --> 00:41:32,701
Speaker 2: that you would have to stop and go what is

864
00:41:32,741 --> 00:41:33,381
Speaker 2: happening here?

865
00:41:33,422 --> 00:41:37,302
Speaker 1: Which it's probably worth remembering that the Jerry Springer moment

866
00:41:37,741 --> 00:41:40,822
Speaker 1: I sort of corresponded with the in Australia the Foxtel moment,

867
00:41:40,902 --> 00:41:43,582
Speaker 1: which was we had more channels than ever before, so

868
00:41:43,661 --> 00:41:46,022
Speaker 1: you would flick. You had more choice, so you would flick.

869
00:41:46,062 --> 00:41:48,741
Speaker 1: I remember this as a kid, flick through dozens and

870
00:41:48,781 --> 00:41:53,542
Speaker 1: dozens of channels, and so the market forces required content

871
00:41:54,062 --> 00:41:54,661
Speaker 1: that was dumb.

872
00:41:54,822 --> 00:41:56,661
Speaker 3: Stopped your thumb. Yeah.

873
00:41:56,701 --> 00:41:58,502
Speaker 4: He had this team of young producers, some of whom

874
00:41:58,502 --> 00:42:00,741
Speaker 4: are interviewed on this doco too, and they say they'd

875
00:42:00,781 --> 00:42:03,022
Speaker 4: sourced their guests from what they came to call the

876
00:42:03,062 --> 00:42:07,181
Speaker 4: Springer triangle, areas of geographical disadvantage in the US, and

877
00:42:07,221 --> 00:42:11,341
Speaker 4: then they'd prime them for maximum drama, preferably violence. They'd

878
00:42:11,382 --> 00:42:13,622
Speaker 4: fly them in and treat them like kings, driving them

879
00:42:13,661 --> 00:42:16,661
Speaker 4: around in stretch limos, free bar tab all night, and

880
00:42:16,701 --> 00:42:19,181
Speaker 4: then before the shows would actually go on, they would

881
00:42:19,261 --> 00:42:21,622
Speaker 4: rile them up, tell them all the awful things that

882
00:42:21,701 --> 00:42:25,341
Speaker 4: their sister girlfriend whatever had done, shit talk them and

883
00:42:25,422 --> 00:42:27,902
Speaker 4: like really rile them up to eleven before they basically

884
00:42:28,102 --> 00:42:31,221
Speaker 4: throw them out onto the stage. Seems mad, Well, I

885
00:42:31,302 --> 00:42:34,022
Speaker 4: understand you have every reason to be upset, but it

886
00:42:34,102 --> 00:42:36,622
Speaker 4: was really just because you didn't drive.

887
00:42:36,462 --> 00:42:37,181
Speaker 2: It a Walmart.

888
00:42:38,221 --> 00:42:47,741
Speaker 5: Oh man, Okay, here's Naia.

889
00:42:51,701 --> 00:42:54,622
Speaker 4: There would be punishments if they didn't perform. These people

890
00:42:54,661 --> 00:42:57,181
Speaker 4: who'd gone the show like no flight home for you,

891
00:42:57,221 --> 00:43:00,861
Speaker 4: completely cut loose. A sample of the show's titles of

892
00:43:00,902 --> 00:43:03,062
Speaker 4: the time included I married a Horse.

893
00:43:03,342 --> 00:43:04,542
Speaker 3: That was a very.

894
00:43:06,902 --> 00:43:09,262
Speaker 4: In which a man kisses his horsewife on the Telly,

895
00:43:09,622 --> 00:43:13,022
Speaker 4: Three pigs in a trailer about beast trailer mates gorging

896
00:43:13,022 --> 00:43:15,661
Speaker 4: on junk food, Married to your dad, but I want

897
00:43:15,701 --> 00:43:17,781
Speaker 4: you back. That's quite tame compared to some of them.

898
00:43:17,822 --> 00:43:20,661
Speaker 4: And a lot of cheating, and a fair sprinkling of

899
00:43:20,741 --> 00:43:23,462
Speaker 4: what now would be termed just deeply offensive.

900
00:43:23,181 --> 00:43:24,822
Speaker 2: Gender revealed story.

901
00:43:24,982 --> 00:43:26,502
Speaker 3: Yeah, and lots of like.

902
00:43:26,502 --> 00:43:28,942
Speaker 4: Your girlfriend's really a man and all that kind of thing,

903
00:43:29,582 --> 00:43:33,582
Speaker 4: and everybody loved it. The show, which was always slammed

904
00:43:33,622 --> 00:43:35,262
Speaker 4: by the media and called the worst thing on Telly,

905
00:43:35,942 --> 00:43:38,582
Speaker 4: was originally thought to have no chance of ever catching

906
00:43:38,582 --> 00:43:41,221
Speaker 4: over her in the ratings. It went and went and

907
00:43:41,261 --> 00:43:44,302
Speaker 4: went until it stole her crown in the late nineties.

908
00:43:44,342 --> 00:43:48,501
Speaker 4: By then, she had kind of pivoted. She'd famously said

909
00:43:48,502 --> 00:43:50,502
Speaker 4: she thought that the Springer Show was disgusting, and she

910
00:43:50,622 --> 00:43:53,342
Speaker 4: kind of pivoted to like self help and the celebrity

911
00:43:53,342 --> 00:43:56,062
Speaker 4: interviews and what kind of became a much more sort

912
00:43:56,102 --> 00:43:59,741
Speaker 4: of respectable version of talk show Telly. But meanwhile, the

913
00:43:59,862 --> 00:44:03,142
Speaker 4: ratings of Springer emboldened the show to push harder. They

914
00:44:03,181 --> 00:44:05,382
Speaker 4: were like, this is what people want. The producers of

915
00:44:05,422 --> 00:44:07,701
Speaker 4: the show said this over and over in the documentary,

916
00:44:07,942 --> 00:44:09,861
Speaker 4: look at how many people want this? Who are not

917
00:44:09,902 --> 00:44:12,342
Speaker 4: to give them what they want. One of the producers

918
00:44:12,382 --> 00:44:14,381
Speaker 4: on the show talks about how he quit after he

919
00:44:14,462 --> 00:44:16,942
Speaker 4: was involved in producing a story about a young sex

920
00:44:16,982 --> 00:44:19,382
Speaker 4: worker whose father was one of her regular clients.

921
00:44:19,382 --> 00:44:20,942
Speaker 3: Oh, that's so awful.

922
00:44:21,542 --> 00:44:24,822
Speaker 4: Anyway, Springer blew itself out, although it has actually remained

923
00:44:24,822 --> 00:44:27,622
Speaker 4: on air till about twenty eighteen, but its relevance was

924
00:44:27,661 --> 00:44:31,181
Speaker 4: really over by then. The fighting became predictable, and we

925
00:44:31,342 --> 00:44:33,502
Speaker 4: like to think that the culture moved past it, but.

926
00:44:33,542 --> 00:44:34,342
Speaker 3: Did we really.

927
00:44:34,542 --> 00:44:36,102
Speaker 4: At the end of the spring of Docco, there's a

928
00:44:36,102 --> 00:44:39,902
Speaker 4: montage of fighting footage from contemporary shows like The Kardashians,

929
00:44:40,221 --> 00:44:43,382
Speaker 4: Love Island, The Real Housewives of all the various places

930
00:44:43,422 --> 00:44:46,102
Speaker 4: that the Real Housewives are from, and of course Maths,

931
00:44:46,102 --> 00:44:48,942
Speaker 4: which is an international hit. The Australian version of Maths

932
00:44:48,982 --> 00:44:52,222
Speaker 4: is really big in England and other places. Now, recent

933
00:44:52,221 --> 00:44:55,142
Speaker 4: world events might suggest that people also want this level

934
00:44:55,181 --> 00:44:58,262
Speaker 4: of sound off drama from their politics, from their leaders,

935
00:44:58,302 --> 00:45:02,582
Speaker 4: from the T shirts on their activisms. Popularism is exactly

936
00:45:02,622 --> 00:45:05,542
Speaker 4: about giving people what they want, whether it's possible, whether

937
00:45:05,582 --> 00:45:09,781
Speaker 4: it's sensible, and whether it's good for them or the world. No,

938
00:45:09,982 --> 00:45:13,422
Speaker 4: do we think it's possible that Maths is a symptom

939
00:45:13,462 --> 00:45:14,902
Speaker 4: of the end of civilization.

940
00:45:15,261 --> 00:45:17,782
Speaker 3: Jesse Stevens, there.

941
00:45:17,542 --> 00:45:22,422
Speaker 1: Is something ubiquitous about this that Jerry Springer didn't invent.

942
00:45:22,622 --> 00:45:26,222
Speaker 1: So they talk about this in the documentary, like the

943
00:45:26,261 --> 00:45:29,102
Speaker 1: gladiator complex.

944
00:45:28,701 --> 00:45:32,502
Speaker 5: Of ancient Rome, where you went and watched men fight

945
00:45:33,102 --> 00:45:34,262
Speaker 5: and die and die.

946
00:45:34,661 --> 00:45:39,502
Speaker 1: There is clearly basic humans, Yeah, base human instincts about

947
00:45:39,942 --> 00:45:43,742
Speaker 1: seeing humans behave badly. And even I was thinking about

948
00:45:43,862 --> 00:45:47,062
Speaker 1: we've got this fascination with other people's sex lives that

949
00:45:47,302 --> 00:45:50,421
Speaker 1: has existed since human beings have existed, and even Marie

950
00:45:50,422 --> 00:45:53,982
Speaker 1: Antoinette that's when the tabloids sort of started was around

951
00:45:54,142 --> 00:45:57,622
Speaker 1: French Revolution and the things that were written about Marie Antoinette.

952
00:45:57,622 --> 00:45:59,902
Speaker 1: There were allegations of incest, of orgies, of all of

953
00:45:59,982 --> 00:46:02,381
Speaker 1: those things. When we didn't see them, we made them up.

954
00:46:02,542 --> 00:46:06,862
Speaker 1: So there is something innate within human beings that loves

955
00:46:06,862 --> 00:46:11,102
Speaker 1: this shit. But I think what happened and with Jerry Springer,

956
00:46:11,181 --> 00:46:14,582
Speaker 1: is that it proved that if you behaved badly enough,

957
00:46:15,102 --> 00:46:19,181
Speaker 1: then people would pay attention. And the other thing it

958
00:46:19,261 --> 00:46:22,181
Speaker 1: was engaging with were the market forces of how do

959
00:46:22,221 --> 00:46:25,662
Speaker 1: we get the highest ratings by spending the least amount

960
00:46:25,661 --> 00:46:27,142
Speaker 1: of money. And I don't think you can look at

961
00:46:27,181 --> 00:46:30,301
Speaker 1: this without following the money, because you didn't have to

962
00:46:30,302 --> 00:46:33,942
Speaker 1: pay these people, so you could get these remarkable ratings.

963
00:46:33,982 --> 00:46:35,942
Speaker 1: If it's Days of our Lives or if it's something fictional,

964
00:46:35,942 --> 00:46:37,181
Speaker 1: we've got to pay the actors. You got to pay

965
00:46:37,181 --> 00:46:40,341
Speaker 1: the people writing scripts. Here, you had to pay some producers.

966
00:46:40,661 --> 00:46:42,701
Speaker 1: But these people you just put them in a hotel room,

967
00:46:43,022 --> 00:46:44,181
Speaker 1: same we've married at first sight.

968
00:46:44,181 --> 00:46:45,742
Speaker 5: They're not paid very well.

969
00:46:46,062 --> 00:46:49,622
Speaker 1: It's just you throw them in a room and one

970
00:46:49,701 --> 00:46:53,861
Speaker 1: might argue, well, and they try and argue this. Jerry

971
00:46:53,862 --> 00:46:56,341
Speaker 1: Springer tried to argue it that do we just want

972
00:46:56,342 --> 00:46:58,781
Speaker 1: to see humans at their best, at their most idealized,

973
00:46:58,862 --> 00:47:03,102
Speaker 1: or do we want to see our ugliest, most violent,

974
00:47:03,302 --> 00:47:05,142
Speaker 1: most sexually depraved sides as well?

975
00:47:05,181 --> 00:47:06,502
Speaker 5: Like this is real too.

976
00:47:06,822 --> 00:47:08,181
Speaker 2: Is it exploitative? Do you think?

977
00:47:08,701 --> 00:47:09,022
Speaker 3: Yes?

978
00:47:09,302 --> 00:47:11,462
Speaker 5: The shows on a mirror these shows.

979
00:47:11,462 --> 00:47:13,701
Speaker 1: I was reading this analysis in the New York Times

980
00:47:13,822 --> 00:47:17,022
Speaker 1: said Jerry Springer wasn't a ring master, he was a tutor.

981
00:47:17,302 --> 00:47:19,382
Speaker 1: You were teaching these people how to behave. And that

982
00:47:19,502 --> 00:47:20,741
Speaker 1: was the same with married at first sight.

983
00:47:20,822 --> 00:47:23,221
Speaker 2: What do you mean You don't just put people.

984
00:47:23,022 --> 00:47:25,062
Speaker 1: In a room and press the camera and start rolling.

985
00:47:25,102 --> 00:47:28,422
Speaker 1: What you do is you choose people very specifically based

986
00:47:28,462 --> 00:47:30,901
Speaker 1: on their personality, gat them up, and you give them

987
00:47:30,902 --> 00:47:33,142
Speaker 1: too much alcohol, and you hype them up, and you

988
00:47:33,142 --> 00:47:34,741
Speaker 1: put them in high pressure situation and.

989
00:47:34,701 --> 00:47:35,421
Speaker 3: You mismatch them.

990
00:47:35,422 --> 00:47:38,062
Speaker 4: So if they ask for a younger, petit woman, you

991
00:47:38,102 --> 00:47:40,142
Speaker 4: give them a woman of the similar aids to them

992
00:47:40,181 --> 00:47:41,142
Speaker 4: who may not be petite.

993
00:47:41,302 --> 00:47:41,582
Speaker 5: Yes.

994
00:47:41,661 --> 00:47:44,341
Speaker 1: So that's the exploitative part to me, is that you

995
00:47:44,502 --> 00:47:48,701
Speaker 1: are orchestrating this so that people behave worse and worse.

996
00:47:48,701 --> 00:47:50,942
Speaker 1: Because we know that how arousal and interest works is

997
00:47:50,982 --> 00:47:53,022
Speaker 1: that every season needs to be worse than the last.

998
00:47:53,221 --> 00:47:54,901
Speaker 1: So I just heard what you read out Holly, I'm

999
00:47:54,902 --> 00:47:57,181
Speaker 1: not watching this season, and I just went, oh, they've

1000
00:47:57,221 --> 00:47:59,822
Speaker 1: done that before, Yeah, like every time they find someone.

1001
00:48:00,261 --> 00:48:02,022
Speaker 4: Oh, and there's no doubt. I mean, it's only a

1002
00:48:02,022 --> 00:48:03,582
Speaker 4: been on for three nights, so we should give them

1003
00:48:03,622 --> 00:48:04,422
Speaker 4: a little bit of time.

1004
00:48:04,542 --> 00:48:05,301
Speaker 3: But there's no doubts.

1005
00:48:05,382 --> 00:48:08,102
Speaker 4: We've had violence, we've had people throwing things at each other,

1006
00:48:08,142 --> 00:48:10,181
Speaker 4: all those things on maps, and lots of people say

1007
00:48:10,221 --> 00:48:12,422
Speaker 4: they don't watch for the drama, they watch for the love.

1008
00:48:12,741 --> 00:48:14,661
Speaker 3: But we watch for the drama.

1009
00:48:14,342 --> 00:48:15,582
Speaker 5: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1010
00:48:15,582 --> 00:48:17,142
Speaker 1: You can even tell from the way that they cut

1011
00:48:17,542 --> 00:48:19,781
Speaker 1: the trailers and stuff. And I also thought, actually, when

1012
00:48:19,822 --> 00:48:22,622
Speaker 1: I was watching the Jerry Springer documentary, you can also

1013
00:48:22,781 --> 00:48:25,502
Speaker 1: draw a straight line yes to maths, but also too

1014
00:48:25,781 --> 00:48:29,341
Speaker 1: only fans. So there were titles that were like, I

1015
00:48:29,422 --> 00:48:32,902
Speaker 1: slept with two hundred and fifty one men in ten hours.

1016
00:48:33,142 --> 00:48:35,142
Speaker 5: That's now just an only fans blue.

1017
00:48:35,261 --> 00:48:39,382
Speaker 4: But this was also a little bit pre saturation of porn. Yeah,

1018
00:48:39,422 --> 00:48:41,341
Speaker 4: the line, god knows how they got away with it

1019
00:48:41,382 --> 00:48:45,742
Speaker 4: really on commercial television, but the line of the sex content,

1020
00:48:45,822 --> 00:48:48,142
Speaker 4: it was almost before you could see all that at

1021
00:48:48,142 --> 00:48:49,582
Speaker 4: the click of a button at anytime.

1022
00:48:49,701 --> 00:48:49,982
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1023
00:48:50,062 --> 00:48:53,341
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Beast reality one was tricky, and it's a

1024
00:48:53,382 --> 00:48:57,862
Speaker 2: line that TV networks and advertisers had to walk very carefully,

1025
00:48:57,902 --> 00:49:03,422
Speaker 2: because just because something is very popular, what kind of

1026
00:49:03,462 --> 00:49:06,381
Speaker 2: responsibility do you have to give people what they want

1027
00:49:06,502 --> 00:49:08,862
Speaker 2: or not give people what they want? Do we agree

1028
00:49:09,142 --> 00:49:13,261
Speaker 2: as a society that perhaps best reality and incest is

1029
00:49:13,342 --> 00:49:17,901
Speaker 2: best not packaged entertainment with ads sold around it and

1030
00:49:17,942 --> 00:49:20,742
Speaker 2: put on in the middle of the day. It blew

1031
00:49:20,822 --> 00:49:23,221
Speaker 2: up a lot of those ideas, And of course now

1032
00:49:23,261 --> 00:49:25,421
Speaker 2: you can get anything on the internet, so you're right.

1033
00:49:25,502 --> 00:49:29,701
Speaker 2: It was pre internet and it almost seemed shocking and

1034
00:49:29,781 --> 00:49:33,342
Speaker 2: quaint like watching it back. And I don't watch Maths,

1035
00:49:33,382 --> 00:49:37,062
Speaker 2: but I've been reading the recaps on Mumma Mia, so

1036
00:49:37,181 --> 00:49:40,622
Speaker 2: I'm you know, stay across a broad brushstrokes. To me,

1037
00:49:40,701 --> 00:49:43,781
Speaker 2: the comparison between Oprah and Jerry Springer is like The

1038
00:49:43,822 --> 00:49:47,741
Speaker 2: Bachelor in Maths. It's like it's the same genre but

1039
00:49:47,942 --> 00:49:51,461
Speaker 2: the volume is turned up to eleven. Would that be right?

1040
00:49:51,622 --> 00:49:54,701
Speaker 4: Yeah, although Oprah in her early days was more springery.

1041
00:49:54,822 --> 00:49:55,382
Speaker 3: Definitely.

1042
00:49:55,462 --> 00:49:59,461
Speaker 4: I have a very clear memory of seeing Klueklux clan

1043
00:49:59,542 --> 00:50:03,302
Speaker 4: members on Oprah Winfrey's show, right and I was young, obviously,

1044
00:50:03,422 --> 00:50:06,622
Speaker 4: and there was shouting and there was an I feel

1045
00:50:06,661 --> 00:50:09,901
Speaker 4: like then Springer took the format and filled on Huge

1046
00:50:09,982 --> 00:50:12,782
Speaker 4: Show and a few others that were of that genre,

1047
00:50:13,342 --> 00:50:16,942
Speaker 4: and they were all taking that format and evolving it,

1048
00:50:16,982 --> 00:50:21,381
Speaker 4: and I think that Oprah quite genuinely got really sick

1049
00:50:21,422 --> 00:50:24,342
Speaker 4: about it, and she pivoted and she built another empire

1050
00:50:24,382 --> 00:50:26,622
Speaker 4: on that. I mean, she's obviously a smart enough woman

1051
00:50:26,661 --> 00:50:28,821
Speaker 4: to wherever she pivoted to it was going to work,

1052
00:50:28,862 --> 00:50:30,861
Speaker 4: because then she became the self help guru and she

1053
00:50:30,942 --> 00:50:31,662
Speaker 4: became Oprah.

1054
00:50:31,781 --> 00:50:32,021
Speaker 7: Right.

1055
00:50:32,781 --> 00:50:35,582
Speaker 4: The thing that I wrestle with is the populism of

1056
00:50:35,622 --> 00:50:37,901
Speaker 4: it all, because I'm on record as saying I don't

1057
00:50:37,942 --> 00:50:38,261
Speaker 4: like maths.

1058
00:50:38,302 --> 00:50:39,701
Speaker 3: I don't watch maths. I find it.

1059
00:50:39,942 --> 00:50:43,422
Speaker 4: Ikey, I don't like watching people fighting. When I was

1060
00:50:43,422 --> 00:50:45,661
Speaker 4: watching Springer, and I used to feel this when I

1061
00:50:45,701 --> 00:50:48,542
Speaker 4: did actually watch it as a young person, I always

1062
00:50:48,582 --> 00:50:50,462
Speaker 4: felt like I was only getting a tiny bit of

1063
00:50:50,502 --> 00:50:53,221
Speaker 4: the story, and I wanted more, like, why are these

1064
00:50:53,261 --> 00:50:55,542
Speaker 4: people like this? What has happened to them? And you

1065
00:50:55,542 --> 00:50:57,462
Speaker 4: would always find out if you ever did dig. There

1066
00:50:57,502 --> 00:50:59,701
Speaker 4: was always drug addiction involved. There were all kinds of

1067
00:50:59,701 --> 00:51:03,542
Speaker 4: things going on, and I found it unsatisfying and distasteful.

1068
00:51:04,181 --> 00:51:07,422
Speaker 4: But my view of Maths and Love Island, all those shows,

1069
00:51:07,422 --> 00:51:10,862
Speaker 4: which is like, feels very saw and finger waggy in

1070
00:51:10,902 --> 00:51:14,342
Speaker 4: a way because people do absolutely love it, and people's

1071
00:51:14,382 --> 00:51:17,542
Speaker 4: relationships are chaotic, and people do cheat on people, and

1072
00:51:18,022 --> 00:51:20,102
Speaker 4: there is a horrible guy who's going to nag you

1073
00:51:20,142 --> 00:51:20,862
Speaker 4: about your weight.

1074
00:51:21,022 --> 00:51:22,462
Speaker 3: So I guess the thing.

1075
00:51:22,302 --> 00:51:25,182
Speaker 4: I wrestle with is is the fact that this stuff

1076
00:51:25,221 --> 00:51:28,422
Speaker 4: is the most popular stuff on TV, and that we

1077
00:51:28,542 --> 00:51:32,781
Speaker 4: seem to be really leaning in maybe now culturally more

1078
00:51:32,822 --> 00:51:35,982
Speaker 4: than evertous our darker instincts in all kinds of areas.

1079
00:51:36,701 --> 00:51:37,701
Speaker 3: What do you do with that?

1080
00:51:38,102 --> 00:51:41,821
Speaker 4: Because just saying you shouldn't watch it it's gross, isn't.

1081
00:51:42,062 --> 00:51:44,622
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't put it on the audience in that way,

1082
00:51:44,661 --> 00:51:49,102
Speaker 1: But I do think that as people who who make television,

1083
00:51:49,102 --> 00:51:52,981
Speaker 1: one consideration would probably be is this human interest? Because

1084
00:51:52,982 --> 00:51:54,661
Speaker 1: you can make a great documentary, you can do a

1085
00:51:54,701 --> 00:51:58,901
Speaker 1: great interview and challenge people on their beliefs. But am

1086
00:51:58,942 --> 00:52:01,342
Speaker 1: I making and I mean this word in the nineteenth

1087
00:52:01,422 --> 00:52:04,182
Speaker 1: twentieth century form of am I making?

1088
00:52:04,221 --> 00:52:04,862
Speaker 5: The freak show?

1089
00:52:05,022 --> 00:52:07,102
Speaker 1: The show that used to exist where you would have

1090
00:52:07,142 --> 00:52:10,422
Speaker 1: someone who was really tall and really short and almost

1091
00:52:10,462 --> 00:52:11,261
Speaker 1: like a circus.

1092
00:52:11,342 --> 00:52:15,181
Speaker 2: Aren't we just drawn to watching extremes? And as you said, Jesse,

1093
00:52:15,302 --> 00:52:17,701
Speaker 2: that's how our oursal works. It's like you need more

1094
00:52:17,741 --> 00:52:20,701
Speaker 2: and more extremes to stay interested. I this sexually, you know,

1095
00:52:20,822 --> 00:52:22,462
Speaker 2: but also just with your attention.

1096
00:52:22,781 --> 00:52:23,221
Speaker 3: I think so.

1097
00:52:23,462 --> 00:52:26,741
Speaker 1: But then that's where it starts to feel exploitative. And

1098
00:52:26,741 --> 00:52:28,821
Speaker 1: that's where when I see Jerry Springer and maybe some

1099
00:52:28,902 --> 00:52:32,102
Speaker 1: elements of reality TV, you go, oh, okay, this is

1100
00:52:32,221 --> 00:52:36,542
Speaker 1: literally the nineteenth century us sitting there and what laughing

1101
00:52:36,582 --> 00:52:38,542
Speaker 1: at people that are different to us like that doesn't

1102
00:52:38,582 --> 00:52:41,222
Speaker 1: make anyone feel good out.

1103
00:52:41,142 --> 00:52:42,862
Speaker 3: Loud as goodness me. That was a big show.

1104
00:52:43,102 --> 00:52:45,741
Speaker 4: We've covered a lot of ground. Thank you if you're

1105
00:52:45,741 --> 00:52:48,102
Speaker 4: still with us, thank you for always being here with us,

1106
00:52:48,302 --> 00:52:50,102
Speaker 4: and of course thank you to our fabulous team for

1107
00:52:50,142 --> 00:52:51,902
Speaker 4: putting the show together. We're going to be back in

1108
00:52:51,942 --> 00:52:53,582
Speaker 4: your hours tomorrow as always.

1109
00:52:53,462 --> 00:52:56,262
Speaker 2: And if you're on the hunt for some more scurreless gossip,

1110
00:52:56,342 --> 00:52:59,941
Speaker 2: not that we scuruleously gossip today, but yesterday we did

1111
00:52:59,942 --> 00:53:04,942
Speaker 2: a subscriber episode about the Barack Obama, Jennifernis diner fair Rooms,

1112
00:53:04,982 --> 00:53:07,782
Speaker 2: Selena Gomez crying on Instagram, and.

1113
00:53:07,942 --> 00:53:10,741
Speaker 5: Prince Harry's nice speaking of murder.

1114
00:53:10,542 --> 00:53:13,341
Speaker 2: A Royal installment. A link, as always will be in

1115
00:53:13,382 --> 00:53:14,022
Speaker 2: the show notes.

1116
00:53:14,302 --> 00:53:19,102
Speaker 5: Bye bye. Shout out to any Mum and mea subscribers listening.

1117
00:53:19,382 --> 00:53:21,502
Speaker 1: If you love the show and you want to support us,

1118
00:53:21,781 --> 00:53:25,062
Speaker 1: subscribing Tomma Mia is the very best way to do so.

1119
00:53:25,422 --> 00:53:27,181
Speaker 5: There's a link in the episode description