WEBVTT - How Dassi Erlich Escaped Her Extreme Community And Exposed Malka Leifer's Crimes 0:00:10.365 --> 0:00:15.005 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges 0:00:15.045 --> 0:00:17.685 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.765 --> 0:00:29.205 is recorded on from Mamma Ma. I'm mea Friedman. You're 0:00:29.245 --> 0:00:32.205 listening to no filter, and you're about to hear a 0:00:32.325 --> 0:00:35.645 very big story. When she was just fifteen years old, 0:00:36.165 --> 0:00:39.245 Darcy Olick was sexually abused for the first time by 0:00:39.245 --> 0:00:42.125 a woman called Malka Laifer, who was the principal of 0:00:42.165 --> 0:00:46.925 her school. So were Dussi's sisters and likely many many 0:00:47.005 --> 0:00:51.725 other young girls. And these girls were particularly vulnerable because 0:00:51.725 --> 0:00:55.325 they were part of an extreme ultra orthodox religious community, 0:00:55.965 --> 0:00:58.485 which meant that they had no understanding of their bodies 0:00:58.685 --> 0:01:02.205 or their body parts, let alone what sex or abuse 0:01:02.285 --> 0:01:07.485 even was. Many of these girls faced unimaginable cruelty at home, 0:01:08.165 --> 0:01:11.885 and they had no content act whatsoever outside their community. 0:01:12.365 --> 0:01:15.085 Even though it wasn't in some far off remote location, 0:01:15.685 --> 0:01:18.525 it was in the middle of Melbourne. The girls in 0:01:18.565 --> 0:01:22.165 this community were barely educated and they quite literally didn't 0:01:22.205 --> 0:01:25.765 have the words for what was happening to them, and 0:01:25.845 --> 0:01:30.085 so the abuse went on and on and on for years. 0:01:30.925 --> 0:01:33.645 This chronic abuser of girls who were in her care 0:01:34.165 --> 0:01:40.925 hid in plain sight as a pillar of her community, powerful, admired, respected. 0:01:42.045 --> 0:01:44.525 It wasn't until later in Dussy's life that she learned 0:01:44.565 --> 0:01:47.685 the words for what happened to her and found her voice. 0:01:48.685 --> 0:01:52.685 And finally, thanks to Dussy's incredible courage, the crimes of 0:01:52.725 --> 0:01:56.645 Malchalafer were finally exposed to the world. But that wasn't 0:01:56.645 --> 0:01:59.645 the end of the story, because soon after she spoke up, 0:01:59.685 --> 0:02:03.605 the leaders in Dussy's community spirited Leafer out of the 0:02:03.685 --> 0:02:08.565 country and back to Israel overnight to protect her, and 0:02:09.165 --> 0:02:13.645 he could be said to protect themselves. Darcy, along with 0:02:13.685 --> 0:02:18.205 her sisters, police and prosecutors, would spend the next thirteen 0:02:18.365 --> 0:02:23.125 years trying to bring Malchaleffer back to Australia to face justice. 0:02:24.325 --> 0:02:27.245 So how do you survive all of that? Because Darcy 0:02:27.285 --> 0:02:33.325 didn't just survive it. She is finally tentatively thriving and 0:02:33.365 --> 0:02:37.805 she's ready to talk. She's written an extraordinary memoir about 0:02:37.845 --> 0:02:41.245 her life called In Bad Faith, and after reading it, 0:02:41.325 --> 0:02:44.165 I wanted to know how she got through it and 0:02:44.245 --> 0:02:47.965 how she's doing now. It is a story unlike any 0:02:48.165 --> 0:02:52.245 I've ever heard. Before you meet DUSSI though, I want 0:02:52.245 --> 0:02:54.565 to emphasize that the community in which she grew up 0:02:55.045 --> 0:03:00.285 practices an extreme type of ultra orthodox Judaism, and like 0:03:00.405 --> 0:03:04.685 any form of religious extremism, it bears very little resemblance 0:03:04.685 --> 0:03:07.885 to the lives of most Jewish people living in Australia 0:03:08.245 --> 0:03:11.245 I'm one of them, or around the world, including Israel. 0:03:11.885 --> 0:03:15.125 There are pockets of extreme religion in many countries, to 0:03:15.165 --> 0:03:17.845 be sure, but please do not let this color your 0:03:17.925 --> 0:03:22.085 view of Judaism, which even in its orthodox form, is 0:03:22.165 --> 0:03:26.965 nothing like what Darsi has experienced. Thank God. Now Dussi 0:03:27.085 --> 0:03:31.645 is unflinchingly honest about the nature of Malkalaifa's abuse, So 0:03:31.765 --> 0:03:34.525 please listen mindfully, and there are links in the show 0:03:34.565 --> 0:03:40.445 notes for anyone who may need support. Here's Dussi. For 0:03:40.485 --> 0:03:45.205 those who don't really understand where in the spectrum the 0:03:45.285 --> 0:03:48.205 Jewish community that you grew up in sits. I guess 0:03:48.245 --> 0:03:50.525 every religion is on a spectrum, right, And at one 0:03:50.605 --> 0:03:53.725 end there's people who have a very loose relationship with 0:03:53.765 --> 0:03:57.285 their faith and are maybe more culturally Jewish, And at 0:03:57.285 --> 0:04:00.845 the other end there is the most extreme form of Judaism. 0:04:01.485 --> 0:04:04.525 Where did the Adas community and the community you grew 0:04:04.645 --> 0:04:06.885 up in sit on that spectrum? 0:04:07.285 --> 0:04:10.165 Well, from people looking in towards the religion just community. 0:04:10.245 --> 0:04:13.885 They would see it as the most extreme way of religion, 0:04:14.005 --> 0:04:17.245 the extreme way of living religion. But growing up in 0:04:17.285 --> 0:04:19.925 that community, that's not at all what I thought. I 0:04:19.965 --> 0:04:23.365 was taught that the best way to practice religion at 0:04:23.365 --> 0:04:26.845 all was to live the way that I did and 0:04:27.245 --> 0:04:29.045 to be in the community that I did, and that 0:04:29.125 --> 0:04:31.285 if you did not live in that way, if you 0:04:31.325 --> 0:04:36.605 do not experience religion literally every single moment of your day. 0:04:36.685 --> 0:04:39.005 We looked at the Jewish people outside of our community 0:04:39.045 --> 0:04:41.725 and didn't really consider them Jewish, or we saw them 0:04:41.765 --> 0:04:44.285 as Jewish but not living the right way. And if 0:04:44.285 --> 0:04:46.485 only they opened their eyes and saw that, you know, 0:04:46.525 --> 0:04:48.845 there's a better way to live, There's a more superior 0:04:48.885 --> 0:04:49.485 way to live. 0:04:50.045 --> 0:04:53.365 It was Judaism, or it was religion really in its 0:04:53.405 --> 0:04:58.285 most extreme form. Can you explain what the life of 0:04:58.685 --> 0:05:03.205 a Jewish girl as you were growing up would look 0:05:03.365 --> 0:05:07.085 like according to the faith and the way your religion 0:05:07.165 --> 0:05:09.765 was practiced in your community, some of the things that 0:05:09.805 --> 0:05:13.525 you had to do, say, dress, all of those things, 0:05:13.565 --> 0:05:15.165 like from the moment you woke up, can you take 0:05:15.245 --> 0:05:16.245 us through a typical day. 0:05:16.725 --> 0:05:18.525 I mean, when I look back at my life and 0:05:18.565 --> 0:05:22.245 I see that it was already predetermined before I even 0:05:22.365 --> 0:05:24.285 was born, who I was going to be, what I 0:05:24.365 --> 0:05:26.645 was going to do, what my journey was going to 0:05:26.645 --> 0:05:28.405 be like. As a young woman growing up in the 0:05:28.485 --> 0:05:32.245 Dusk community, and I knew my role was to do 0:05:32.285 --> 0:05:34.285 everything that I needed to do in order to prepare 0:05:34.445 --> 0:05:36.885 to become a wife and a mother. I was told 0:05:36.925 --> 0:05:39.405 from very very young, I needed to be the person 0:05:39.445 --> 0:05:42.925 that could support my husband in learning Torah and bring 0:05:43.005 --> 0:05:45.725 up a Jewish family. That was my role, and a 0:05:45.725 --> 0:05:49.645 lot of my childhood was framed around that idea. So 0:05:50.085 --> 0:05:53.045 from very very young, we learned all the rules about 0:05:53.085 --> 0:05:55.685 how to have a proper Jewish life. So I remember 0:05:55.725 --> 0:05:58.565 being three years old and waking up and getting really 0:05:58.565 --> 0:06:01.005 nervous about what way do I wash my hands? Because 0:06:01.005 --> 0:06:03.325 there was a certain way about how to wash your hands. 0:06:03.485 --> 0:06:05.325 What foot do you put out of your bed first? 0:06:05.365 --> 0:06:08.405 Because it goes down to the minutus details. How do 0:06:08.445 --> 0:06:11.045 you step out of bed, how do you get dressed? 0:06:11.285 --> 0:06:14.445 There was rules around absolutely everything, how to go to 0:06:14.485 --> 0:06:17.125 the bathroom, what do you do after the bathroom? So 0:06:17.245 --> 0:06:19.405 I remember being very nervous as a little kid that 0:06:19.445 --> 0:06:21.125 I was going to make a mistake and that I 0:06:21.125 --> 0:06:23.885 wouldn't know what to do. But there was our schooling, 0:06:23.965 --> 0:06:26.325 and my parents were reminding us all the time about 0:06:26.485 --> 0:06:30.125 how to be that good Jewish girl. From three, I 0:06:30.205 --> 0:06:32.805 knew that I had to in some ways be invisible 0:06:33.205 --> 0:06:37.165 and not be seen, and not be recognized and be hidden. 0:06:37.485 --> 0:06:41.125 And I knew I had to wear tights and long 0:06:41.205 --> 0:06:44.565 dresses and skirts that go over my knees. The idea 0:06:44.845 --> 0:06:48.485 was that modesty was very, very precious and I shouldn't 0:06:48.325 --> 0:06:51.765 all bring attention to myself, and that was something that 0:06:52.125 --> 0:06:54.685 you know, carried through right till I was an adult. 0:06:54.725 --> 0:06:57.045 There was a very big separation between men and women 0:06:57.125 --> 0:06:59.805 in the community, and I didn't speak to a man 0:07:00.125 --> 0:07:03.685 except for my father until I actually sat down with 0:07:03.725 --> 0:07:05.045 the man that I was going to marry. 0:07:05.405 --> 0:07:06.285 How old were you then? 0:07:06.685 --> 0:07:09.445 I was eighteen at the time, and my mother was 0:07:09.485 --> 0:07:12.165 in the next room supervising our date to make sure 0:07:12.205 --> 0:07:14.645 that we didn't touch. You know, I would have not 0:07:14.765 --> 0:07:18.365 even thought about touching. The idea of touching this man 0:07:18.365 --> 0:07:20.325 that I didn't know, this stranger, when I had never 0:07:20.405 --> 0:07:23.805 spoken to another man, was so ludicrous to me. But 0:07:23.965 --> 0:07:26.725 she was there to make sure that nothing underwards happened, 0:07:27.285 --> 0:07:30.165 and we had four dates. I think it was over 0:07:30.245 --> 0:07:33.125 a week, and by that weekend we were engaged. 0:07:33.485 --> 0:07:35.845 The idea of following all those rules was that to 0:07:35.925 --> 0:07:36.565 please God. 0:07:36.965 --> 0:07:39.445 I grew up with a very fearful idea of God. 0:07:39.645 --> 0:07:44.045 So God would punish anyone or anytime anything bad happened 0:07:44.085 --> 0:07:47.005 to the community is because we had angered God or 0:07:47.165 --> 0:07:49.965 you know, God was displeased in some way. And I 0:07:50.005 --> 0:07:52.845 know my parents also really drew on that fear a 0:07:52.845 --> 0:07:55.805 lot that you know, we would be bad Jewish girls. 0:07:56.205 --> 0:07:58.085 And I wrote about this a little bit in my book. 0:07:58.165 --> 0:08:00.925 But when I turned twelve, I knew that the responsibility 0:08:00.925 --> 0:08:02.485 of being a good Jewish girl was on me. It 0:08:02.525 --> 0:08:04.885 was no longer on my parents. And this idea that 0:08:05.245 --> 0:08:07.685 I could be a good Jewish girl was something, you know, 0:08:07.685 --> 0:08:10.525 I would rather die than turn twelve and know that 0:08:10.525 --> 0:08:11.885 that responsibility was on me. 0:08:12.405 --> 0:08:14.845 Were your parents born into that community. 0:08:14.685 --> 0:08:18.325 They actually weren't. They joined the community when they moved 0:08:18.325 --> 0:08:20.965 to Australia before I was born, quite a few years 0:08:21.005 --> 0:08:24.605 before I was born, and they were welcomed by another 0:08:24.725 --> 0:08:29.005 ultra Orthodox community, the Hubbad community. I imagine, coming as 0:08:29.045 --> 0:08:31.605 immigrants to a new country, where did they come from. 0:08:31.965 --> 0:08:35.045 They came from England. My mother was born in Israel, 0:08:35.125 --> 0:08:37.765 my dad was born in England and they met when 0:08:37.885 --> 0:08:40.005 they were both quite young as well. I think my 0:08:40.045 --> 0:08:43.285 mother was sixteen and got married at seventeen to my 0:08:43.365 --> 0:08:46.805 father and moved to England several years later with two 0:08:46.885 --> 0:08:47.605 young children. 0:08:47.765 --> 0:08:50.005 Were they both always very religious. 0:08:49.765 --> 0:08:53.085 No, they weren't religious, so they kind of were traditional 0:08:53.685 --> 0:08:57.965 culturally Jewish. They weren't religious at all actually, so they 0:08:58.045 --> 0:09:02.645 moved here and were welcoming into this religious community. The 0:09:02.725 --> 0:09:05.645 Hubbad community does do a lot of outreach, so they 0:09:05.725 --> 0:09:08.885 were instantly you know, as these new immigrants had this 0:09:09.005 --> 0:09:11.805 ready made community for them where people were very welcoming, 0:09:11.845 --> 0:09:15.365 they were friendly, they were open. By the time I 0:09:15.525 --> 0:09:18.845 was born, though, my parents had realized this was what 0:09:18.965 --> 0:09:21.565 religious life was like. But they didn't want to be 0:09:21.645 --> 0:09:25.245 in a community that welcomed outsiders and allowed everyone to 0:09:25.245 --> 0:09:27.885 be a part of the community. They wanted the more exclusive, 0:09:27.925 --> 0:09:31.405 a dust community that was very closed and very insular. 0:09:31.845 --> 0:09:35.245 So it was almost like an even more extreme version 0:09:35.765 --> 0:09:39.765 that they were looking for that was completely separate from 0:09:40.045 --> 0:09:42.325 the rest of Melbourne and the rest of Australia and 0:09:42.365 --> 0:09:45.005 the rest of the world. How many people were in 0:09:45.005 --> 0:09:48.165 that community, and how do you actually live in a 0:09:48.205 --> 0:09:52.805 community within a big city and not have any exposure. 0:09:52.925 --> 0:09:57.525 Very easily actually, when you don't really go outside of 0:09:57.565 --> 0:10:00.085 the community more. I think it was four blocks. I 0:10:00.125 --> 0:10:03.085 pretty much lived my entire life up until eighteen. I mean, 0:10:03.125 --> 0:10:05.165 of course we journeyed out and went to the country 0:10:05.205 --> 0:10:07.565 or the beach or stuff like that. But I remember 0:10:07.725 --> 0:10:10.165 going in the car and my parents passing a billboard 0:10:10.205 --> 0:10:11.965 and telling us all to look down because there was 0:10:12.005 --> 0:10:15.165 something immodest on the billboard and we couldn't look. So 0:10:15.445 --> 0:10:20.565 we lived pretty much within those four blocks where everything existed, 0:10:20.645 --> 0:10:24.485 Jewish shops and my school or my friends lived within 0:10:24.525 --> 0:10:26.405 that you know kind of area. 0:10:26.485 --> 0:10:30.245 You know, what about things like services like doctors and police, 0:10:30.565 --> 0:10:33.405 and you know, having to go and get your driver's license. 0:10:33.845 --> 0:10:35.725 The members of the at US community must have had 0:10:35.725 --> 0:10:38.965 to interact with the secular world to do those things, 0:10:39.085 --> 0:10:41.485 or was everything within those four blocks. 0:10:42.205 --> 0:10:44.405 Not as a young girl, and definitely not even as 0:10:44.445 --> 0:10:47.325 a teenager, so I didn't get my driver's license. That 0:10:47.445 --> 0:10:49.765 was something that, you know, if my husband allowed it 0:10:49.805 --> 0:10:51.645 when I got married, that would be something that I 0:10:51.685 --> 0:10:56.325 would discuss with him. There were people that existed outside 0:10:56.325 --> 0:10:58.925 of the community or worked outside of the community, but 0:10:59.005 --> 0:11:01.445 it was kept very, very protected from the young people 0:11:01.485 --> 0:11:04.485 and the community. Like my father had to sign something 0:11:04.605 --> 0:11:06.765 with the school to say that he didn't use internet 0:11:06.965 --> 0:11:09.085 at home, and if he did have internet at home 0:11:09.445 --> 0:11:12.205 was heavily heavily filtered. But he worked in it, so 0:11:12.245 --> 0:11:13.845 he needed to have internet at home. 0:11:14.165 --> 0:11:16.485 So people within the community, there are about two hundred 0:11:16.485 --> 0:11:20.765 and fifty families. You said within Theodas community, they did 0:11:20.885 --> 0:11:24.125 often the men, I assume not the women worked outside 0:11:24.125 --> 0:11:27.125 the community, right, because how did they earn money. 0:11:27.285 --> 0:11:30.525 There's a lot of different businesses within the community. And 0:11:30.605 --> 0:11:33.245 as a young person, I wasn't aware of people working 0:11:33.325 --> 0:11:34.805 outside of the community. I mean I kind of had 0:11:34.805 --> 0:11:37.165 a knowledge, but it was something, Oh, maybe the men 0:11:37.245 --> 0:11:39.765 do that and they don't bring it at all into 0:11:39.765 --> 0:11:40.445 the community. 0:11:40.765 --> 0:11:43.045 What was your understanding of the outside world, Like you 0:11:43.085 --> 0:11:44.805 had a lot of siblings. How many siblings did you 0:11:44.845 --> 0:11:45.485 have growing up? 0:11:45.725 --> 0:11:46.765 Six siblings? 0:11:47.125 --> 0:11:49.805 What was your understanding of what was outside the community. 0:11:50.325 --> 0:11:53.885 It wasn't something that was of any importance to me, actually, 0:11:54.045 --> 0:11:56.085 so I'm just trying to think back. I don't remember 0:11:56.165 --> 0:12:01.125 having conversations with my siblings about what was beyond the 0:12:01.165 --> 0:12:04.165 existence that we were living within. There was too much 0:12:04.205 --> 0:12:07.525 going on, you know, within my family home and even 0:12:07.565 --> 0:12:10.405 within my schooling to even think on that. When I 0:12:10.405 --> 0:12:12.845 would see it on the street, it was this other. 0:12:13.205 --> 0:12:16.005 It was very much that was something that I would 0:12:16.045 --> 0:12:18.325 never be a part of, never expected to be a 0:12:18.365 --> 0:12:20.685 part of, and almost didn't never want it to be 0:12:20.725 --> 0:12:22.765 a part of, because I was taught that the way 0:12:22.805 --> 0:12:25.645 I was living was so superior and so much better, 0:12:26.165 --> 0:12:29.005 that that was the most important and best way to live. 0:12:29.125 --> 0:12:32.325 So it was almost like everything else was beneath me 0:12:32.845 --> 0:12:34.765 or beneath our way of living. 0:12:35.285 --> 0:12:37.685 When you were around twelve, there was a break in 0:12:37.805 --> 0:12:40.125 at your house and your parents had to call the police. 0:12:40.445 --> 0:12:43.845 What happened, we were sent to our rooms so that 0:12:43.925 --> 0:12:47.045 we at all, you know, didn't interact with the police 0:12:47.245 --> 0:12:51.125 or didn't have an understanding of the secular world outside 0:12:51.125 --> 0:12:54.005 of our community. In any case, we were terrified of 0:12:54.045 --> 0:12:56.405 the police, and we were told, you know, as young kids, 0:12:56.405 --> 0:12:59.725 that engaging with any of those people outside of the community, 0:12:59.765 --> 0:13:02.645 including the police, would pull us away and tear us 0:13:02.645 --> 0:13:04.365 away from our way of living. 0:13:05.085 --> 0:13:07.445 When I heard your story and when I picked up 0:13:07.485 --> 0:13:10.565 your book. I expected the period in your life when 0:13:10.605 --> 0:13:13.805 you were abused by Michael Laifert to be the low 0:13:13.885 --> 0:13:18.685 point in your life so far. What shocked me was 0:13:19.005 --> 0:13:22.525 the devastating abuse you'd experienced in your own home before that. 0:13:24.085 --> 0:13:25.725 I'm not going to push you on all of the 0:13:25.765 --> 0:13:28.005 things that happened, but I want you to tell me 0:13:28.045 --> 0:13:29.005 a little bit about your mother. 0:13:29.525 --> 0:13:34.205 So, my mother was extremely abusive, but her abuse had 0:13:34.445 --> 0:13:39.645 a cruelty to it. We were utterly, utterly terrified of her, 0:13:40.205 --> 0:13:43.445 and I think she wanted that fear. She wanted us 0:13:43.525 --> 0:13:48.405 to be these little robots that did and exactly as 0:13:48.685 --> 0:13:51.405 she expected, and when we didn't, there was a very 0:13:51.485 --> 0:13:55.445 very heavy price to pay. And maybe instead of explaining 0:13:55.445 --> 0:13:58.125 to you kind of what that was like, I can 0:13:58.205 --> 0:14:01.605 kind of share a story with you about that speaks 0:14:01.605 --> 0:14:05.365 to how it was to live in that house. I mean, 0:14:05.365 --> 0:14:07.685 we experienced a lot of fear and a lot of hunger. 0:14:07.725 --> 0:14:09.925 Those are the two emotions that I look about and think. 0:14:10.245 --> 0:14:12.645 We were hungry all the time. Food withdraw was used 0:14:12.685 --> 0:14:16.605 as a constant punishment. And I remember when we were 0:14:17.245 --> 0:14:20.885 maybe young teenagers. By this time, my siblings had kind 0:14:20.925 --> 0:14:23.285 of were banded together and realized that we needed each 0:14:23.285 --> 0:14:26.965 other in order to survive. And my young brother would 0:14:27.005 --> 0:14:29.045 steal a little, you know, a couple of dollars from 0:14:29.045 --> 0:14:31.645 my father's draw and he would ride off because as 0:14:31.645 --> 0:14:33.365 a boy he was allowed to, you know, ride on 0:14:33.365 --> 0:14:35.365 a bike. We weren't allowed to as girls because it 0:14:35.365 --> 0:14:37.845 wasn't modest. But as a boy, he would get on 0:14:37.925 --> 0:14:39.845 his bike and ride down to the stores and he 0:14:39.885 --> 0:14:43.565 would buy something for us to eat, and he would 0:14:43.565 --> 0:14:46.485 bring it home. And we were so terrified of my 0:14:46.565 --> 0:14:48.805 mother finding out that we had bought something to eat, 0:14:48.885 --> 0:14:51.605 and our time was so so so controlled that she 0:14:51.685 --> 0:14:53.925 knew what we were doing at all times. So my 0:14:54.005 --> 0:14:56.245 brother would actually tie up the food in a bag 0:14:56.325 --> 0:14:59.485 and throw it up onto the roof of the garage, 0:14:59.965 --> 0:15:02.205 and then later on in the evening, when my mother 0:15:02.285 --> 0:15:04.645 had gone to sleep and we knew that it was safe, 0:15:04.885 --> 0:15:07.125 he would actually climb back up onto the roof, bring 0:15:07.165 --> 0:15:09.325 down the food, and then we would all share it together, 0:15:10.205 --> 0:15:13.125 and it was a moment of really close bonding. But 0:15:13.205 --> 0:15:15.965 it really speaks to that fear that we had and 0:15:16.005 --> 0:15:18.285 the control of every minute of what we were doing, 0:15:18.405 --> 0:15:21.485 and that intense hunger, but also the way that we 0:15:21.605 --> 0:15:24.125 kind of banded together as siblings, you know that still 0:15:24.125 --> 0:15:28.165 exist till today, to help each other survive through that time. 0:15:28.725 --> 0:15:32.365 The idea that there could be little children being staffed 0:15:32.365 --> 0:15:34.525 by their own parents as a form of abuse in 0:15:34.565 --> 0:15:39.885 the middle of a bustling city and what should have 0:15:39.925 --> 0:15:44.965 been from the outside a loving community is so deeply shocking. 0:15:45.565 --> 0:15:48.205 But to you, that was just life, That was just 0:15:48.245 --> 0:15:49.445 your childhood. 0:15:49.005 --> 0:15:52.965 Right, yeah, And it wasn't something that the community even 0:15:53.245 --> 0:15:56.885 were aware of, or I mean, there must have been signs, 0:15:56.965 --> 0:16:00.485 but they weren't educated enough to understand what those signs were. 0:16:01.045 --> 0:16:03.325 I was led to believe that if I was abused, 0:16:03.325 --> 0:16:06.725 there was something wrong obviously with me that you deserved it. 0:16:06.925 --> 0:16:09.685 There's this big black mark against my name. I would 0:16:09.725 --> 0:16:12.365 never get married if people know that I'm abused. So 0:16:12.405 --> 0:16:15.205 there was all the intention in all of my sibling 0:16:15.605 --> 0:16:18.325 to hide that abuse as much as possible, because we 0:16:18.405 --> 0:16:20.965 would be seen as something wrong or bad, and we 0:16:21.045 --> 0:16:24.125 knew the only way of leaving home and maturing and 0:16:24.845 --> 0:16:27.005 having an independent life was to get married. 0:16:27.645 --> 0:16:31.485 So in that way, that's so evil. Your parents conscripted 0:16:31.525 --> 0:16:35.445 you into hiding their abuse. We would have been scandalous 0:16:35.445 --> 0:16:36.885 had it have been known or is that what was 0:16:36.925 --> 0:16:39.485 happening in every family? What have you learned since then? 0:16:39.885 --> 0:16:43.285 That was definitely happening in many, many families. The abuse 0:16:43.925 --> 0:16:47.845 and still even today, you know, abuse at home, domestic violence, 0:16:48.165 --> 0:16:52.285 sexual abuse, sexual abuse happening between siblings, all of that 0:16:52.445 --> 0:16:56.645 is still kept extremely, extremely hidden. And it's this idea 0:16:56.765 --> 0:16:59.525 that if the abuse is a part of your family, 0:17:00.085 --> 0:17:02.925 it affects all the children in the family. The matchmakers 0:17:02.965 --> 0:17:05.085 just won't look at you. And that's still the way 0:17:05.165 --> 0:17:07.205 that marriage happens within the community. 0:17:07.685 --> 0:17:11.125 Wow, So your well, parents would do things like just 0:17:11.245 --> 0:17:13.685 drop you off at a park. Tell me about that. 0:17:14.285 --> 0:17:17.565 Well, at different points, my mother would just you know, 0:17:17.605 --> 0:17:20.205 announce that one of her children or several of her 0:17:20.285 --> 0:17:23.565 children were not her children anymore, and you know, she's 0:17:23.765 --> 0:17:26.125 disowned them. They're not her children anymore. They don't deserve 0:17:26.205 --> 0:17:29.245 to be a part of our family. And she would 0:17:29.245 --> 0:17:32.085 ask my father to take one of us, or sometimes 0:17:32.125 --> 0:17:33.685 a couple of us, and just drop us off at 0:17:33.685 --> 0:17:36.925 a park and you know, leave us there, abandon us there. 0:17:36.965 --> 0:17:38.645 And of course, as young children, we didn't know that 0:17:38.685 --> 0:17:40.645 eventually she would come back and pick us up. When 0:17:40.685 --> 0:17:44.685 hangar had settled, we literally thought we had been abandoned, 0:17:44.725 --> 0:17:47.445 and we had no idea what to do, and being 0:17:47.485 --> 0:17:50.565 so insular and not having any understanding of the outside world, 0:17:51.245 --> 0:17:54.445 we did nothing. We literally just stood there hiding behind 0:17:54.485 --> 0:17:57.365 some bush or some bench or something, not knowing what 0:17:57.445 --> 0:17:59.565 to do or where to go or how to exist. 0:17:59.965 --> 0:18:01.885 And you were taught to have such fear of the 0:18:01.925 --> 0:18:04.565 secular world and the people in it that it wouldn't 0:18:04.565 --> 0:18:06.485 have occurred to you to go and ask someone for help. 0:18:07.085 --> 0:18:10.525 Not at all. This idea that my mother could send 0:18:10.605 --> 0:18:14.645 us to this outside world really double down on the 0:18:14.725 --> 0:18:17.565 idea of how bad we were. We must have been terrible, 0:18:17.725 --> 0:18:20.565 terrible children, because you know, the secular world is so 0:18:21.285 --> 0:18:22.925 bad and here we are being sent. 0:18:22.805 --> 0:18:25.725 There, literally cast out into the wilderness. 0:18:26.045 --> 0:18:27.605 That's exactly what it felt. 0:18:27.845 --> 0:18:30.565 So where did school fit into all of this? I mean, 0:18:30.605 --> 0:18:33.045 you had to go to school. What is school for 0:18:33.285 --> 0:18:36.085 girls and boys within the ad Us community. 0:18:36.645 --> 0:18:40.005 So school was my safe place for a long time. 0:18:40.525 --> 0:18:42.645 You know, it was a place that turned up. At 0:18:42.805 --> 0:18:45.565 eight thirty we started school. We did prayers for half 0:18:45.605 --> 0:18:49.285 an hour, We had Jewish classes till about one or 0:18:49.285 --> 0:18:52.565 two o'clock in the afternoon, had lunch and then we 0:18:52.605 --> 0:18:55.365 would have our English and maths, and of course we 0:18:55.365 --> 0:18:57.645 were taught at school. You know, we don't need English 0:18:57.685 --> 0:18:59.325 and maths if we're going to grow up and have 0:18:59.445 --> 0:19:02.485 kids and support our husbands. What do we need that for? 0:19:02.845 --> 0:19:06.405 Our school life was very heavily focused on Jewish studies. 0:19:06.965 --> 0:19:09.525 And how is the education or the school life a 0:19:09.565 --> 0:19:12.085 girl different to the school life of a boy. What 0:19:12.085 --> 0:19:13.325 did your brothers do at school? 0:19:13.725 --> 0:19:16.125 My brothers had quite a similar life, but they were 0:19:16.125 --> 0:19:19.165 actually taught in Yiddish and they had I would think, 0:19:19.245 --> 0:19:23.525 even less secular education than we did. The idea is 0:19:23.565 --> 0:19:26.805 that the boys grow up and study Torah and they 0:19:26.925 --> 0:19:30.045 finish studying any secular education at around year eight. 0:19:30.405 --> 0:19:33.405 So what did you see as a girl when you're 0:19:33.445 --> 0:19:35.965 at school that your life would be like? Like when 0:19:36.005 --> 0:19:39.165 you looked at Darcy's future, what did you imagine that 0:19:39.205 --> 0:19:39.805 it was going to be. 0:19:40.405 --> 0:19:42.925 I very very much hoped that the matchmaker would find 0:19:42.965 --> 0:19:45.725 me someone that I could get married to, that I 0:19:45.765 --> 0:19:49.125 would get married and create a home with my husband, 0:19:49.325 --> 0:19:51.685 and that I would have as many children as I 0:19:51.725 --> 0:19:54.005 was able to. That was my life and I was 0:19:54.045 --> 0:19:55.205 excited for that life. 0:19:56.965 --> 0:19:59.685 You'll hear more of my conversation with Darcy Elk after 0:19:59.725 --> 0:20:08.525 the short break stay with us and so into this 0:20:08.965 --> 0:20:15.605 very difficult situation with these very vulnerable kids. In walked Malkalafa. 0:20:15.685 --> 0:20:18.365 When was the first time that you met her, must. 0:20:18.205 --> 0:20:23.885 Have been in year nine, year ten. I have this 0:20:24.085 --> 0:20:29.365 really clear memory of the prior principle being forced to 0:20:29.445 --> 0:20:35.245 resign and hearing that Malkalaifer had taken over as the 0:20:35.285 --> 0:20:38.005 new principal of the school because the former principal had 0:20:38.045 --> 0:20:41.525 an education, a secular education, and she wasn't religious enough. 0:20:41.605 --> 0:20:43.805 That was my understanding as a young girl. 0:20:44.245 --> 0:20:48.165 Lifa came from Israel with her family. What was her 0:20:48.205 --> 0:20:49.165 family situation. 0:20:49.725 --> 0:20:52.605 She came with her husband and quite a few kids, 0:20:52.605 --> 0:20:54.245 and she had quite a few kids while she was 0:20:54.285 --> 0:20:55.205 in Australia. 0:20:55.325 --> 0:20:56.845 It sounds like she was a real figure. 0:20:57.165 --> 0:21:00.205 She was and it was completely mind blowing, I think 0:21:00.205 --> 0:21:02.805 to everyone in the community. He was this woman who 0:21:02.845 --> 0:21:05.965 wasn't just respected because her husband was a rabbi, this 0:21:06.005 --> 0:21:10.485 woman that was this utter powerhouse. Everybody respected her in 0:21:10.525 --> 0:21:13.965 the community. I had never seen anything like that growing up. 0:21:14.165 --> 0:21:16.125