1 00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:15,005 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges 2 00:00:15,045 --> 00:00:17,685 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:17,765 --> 00:00:29,205 Speaker 1: is recorded on from Mamma Ma. I'm mea Friedman. You're 4 00:00:29,245 --> 00:00:32,205 Speaker 1: listening to no filter, and you're about to hear a 5 00:00:32,325 --> 00:00:35,645 Speaker 1: very big story. When she was just fifteen years old, 6 00:00:36,165 --> 00:00:39,245 Speaker 1: Darcy Olick was sexually abused for the first time by 7 00:00:39,245 --> 00:00:42,125 Speaker 1: a woman called Malka Laifer, who was the principal of 8 00:00:42,165 --> 00:00:46,925 Speaker 1: her school. So were Dussi's sisters and likely many many 9 00:00:47,005 --> 00:00:51,725 Speaker 1: other young girls. And these girls were particularly vulnerable because 10 00:00:51,725 --> 00:00:55,325 Speaker 1: they were part of an extreme ultra orthodox religious community, 11 00:00:55,965 --> 00:00:58,485 Speaker 1: which meant that they had no understanding of their bodies 12 00:00:58,685 --> 00:01:02,205 Speaker 1: or their body parts, let alone what sex or abuse 13 00:01:02,285 --> 00:01:07,485 Speaker 1: even was. Many of these girls faced unimaginable cruelty at home, 14 00:01:08,165 --> 00:01:11,885 Speaker 1: and they had no content act whatsoever outside their community. 15 00:01:12,365 --> 00:01:15,085 Speaker 1: Even though it wasn't in some far off remote location, 16 00:01:15,685 --> 00:01:18,525 Speaker 1: it was in the middle of Melbourne. The girls in 17 00:01:18,565 --> 00:01:22,165 Speaker 1: this community were barely educated and they quite literally didn't 18 00:01:22,205 --> 00:01:25,765 Speaker 1: have the words for what was happening to them, and 19 00:01:25,845 --> 00:01:30,085 Speaker 1: so the abuse went on and on and on for years. 20 00:01:30,925 --> 00:01:33,645 Speaker 1: This chronic abuser of girls who were in her care 21 00:01:34,165 --> 00:01:40,925 Speaker 1: hid in plain sight as a pillar of her community, powerful, admired, respected. 22 00:01:42,045 --> 00:01:44,525 Speaker 1: It wasn't until later in Dussy's life that she learned 23 00:01:44,565 --> 00:01:47,685 Speaker 1: the words for what happened to her and found her voice. 24 00:01:48,685 --> 00:01:52,685 Speaker 1: And finally, thanks to Dussy's incredible courage, the crimes of 25 00:01:52,725 --> 00:01:56,645 Speaker 1: Malchalafer were finally exposed to the world. But that wasn't 26 00:01:56,645 --> 00:01:59,645 Speaker 1: the end of the story, because soon after she spoke up, 27 00:01:59,685 --> 00:02:03,605 Speaker 1: the leaders in Dussy's community spirited Leafer out of the 28 00:02:03,685 --> 00:02:08,565 Speaker 1: country and back to Israel overnight to protect her, and 29 00:02:09,165 --> 00:02:13,645 Speaker 1: he could be said to protect themselves. Darcy, along with 30 00:02:13,685 --> 00:02:18,205 Speaker 1: her sisters, police and prosecutors, would spend the next thirteen 31 00:02:18,365 --> 00:02:23,125 Speaker 1: years trying to bring Malchaleffer back to Australia to face justice. 32 00:02:24,325 --> 00:02:27,245 Speaker 1: So how do you survive all of that? Because Darcy 33 00:02:27,285 --> 00:02:33,325 Speaker 1: didn't just survive it. She is finally tentatively thriving and 34 00:02:33,365 --> 00:02:37,805 Speaker 1: she's ready to talk. She's written an extraordinary memoir about 35 00:02:37,845 --> 00:02:41,245 Speaker 1: her life called In Bad Faith, and after reading it, 36 00:02:41,325 --> 00:02:44,165 Speaker 1: I wanted to know how she got through it and 37 00:02:44,245 --> 00:02:47,965 Speaker 1: how she's doing now. It is a story unlike any 38 00:02:48,165 --> 00:02:52,245 Speaker 1: I've ever heard. Before you meet DUSSI though, I want 39 00:02:52,245 --> 00:02:54,565 Speaker 1: to emphasize that the community in which she grew up 40 00:02:55,045 --> 00:03:00,285 Speaker 1: practices an extreme type of ultra orthodox Judaism, and like 41 00:03:00,405 --> 00:03:04,685 Speaker 1: any form of religious extremism, it bears very little resemblance 42 00:03:04,685 --> 00:03:07,885 Speaker 1: to the lives of most Jewish people living in Australia 43 00:03:08,245 --> 00:03:11,245 Speaker 1: I'm one of them, or around the world, including Israel. 44 00:03:11,885 --> 00:03:15,125 Speaker 1: There are pockets of extreme religion in many countries, to 45 00:03:15,165 --> 00:03:17,845 Speaker 1: be sure, but please do not let this color your 46 00:03:17,925 --> 00:03:22,085 Speaker 1: view of Judaism, which even in its orthodox form, is 47 00:03:22,165 --> 00:03:26,965 Speaker 1: nothing like what Darsi has experienced. Thank God. Now Dussi 48 00:03:27,085 --> 00:03:31,645 Speaker 1: is unflinchingly honest about the nature of Malkalaifa's abuse, So 49 00:03:31,765 --> 00:03:34,525 Speaker 1: please listen mindfully, and there are links in the show 50 00:03:34,565 --> 00:03:40,445 Speaker 1: notes for anyone who may need support. Here's Dussi. For 51 00:03:40,485 --> 00:03:45,205 Speaker 1: those who don't really understand where in the spectrum the 52 00:03:45,285 --> 00:03:48,205 Speaker 1: Jewish community that you grew up in sits. I guess 53 00:03:48,245 --> 00:03:50,525 Speaker 1: every religion is on a spectrum, right, And at one 54 00:03:50,605 --> 00:03:53,725 Speaker 1: end there's people who have a very loose relationship with 55 00:03:53,765 --> 00:03:57,285 Speaker 1: their faith and are maybe more culturally Jewish, And at 56 00:03:57,285 --> 00:04:00,845 Speaker 1: the other end there is the most extreme form of Judaism. 57 00:04:01,485 --> 00:04:04,525 Speaker 1: Where did the Adas community and the community you grew 58 00:04:04,645 --> 00:04:06,885 Speaker 1: up in sit on that spectrum? 59 00:04:07,285 --> 00:04:10,165 Speaker 2: Well, from people looking in towards the religion just community. 60 00:04:10,245 --> 00:04:13,885 Speaker 2: They would see it as the most extreme way of religion, 61 00:04:14,005 --> 00:04:17,245 Speaker 2: the extreme way of living religion. But growing up in 62 00:04:17,285 --> 00:04:19,925 Speaker 2: that community, that's not at all what I thought. I 63 00:04:19,965 --> 00:04:23,365 Speaker 2: was taught that the best way to practice religion at 64 00:04:23,365 --> 00:04:26,845 Speaker 2: all was to live the way that I did and 65 00:04:27,245 --> 00:04:29,045 Speaker 2: to be in the community that I did, and that 66 00:04:29,125 --> 00:04:31,285 Speaker 2: if you did not live in that way, if you 67 00:04:31,325 --> 00:04:36,605 Speaker 2: do not experience religion literally every single moment of your day. 68 00:04:36,685 --> 00:04:39,005 Speaker 2: We looked at the Jewish people outside of our community 69 00:04:39,045 --> 00:04:41,725 Speaker 2: and didn't really consider them Jewish, or we saw them 70 00:04:41,765 --> 00:04:44,285 Speaker 2: as Jewish but not living the right way. And if 71 00:04:44,285 --> 00:04:46,485 Speaker 2: only they opened their eyes and saw that, you know, 72 00:04:46,525 --> 00:04:48,845 Speaker 2: there's a better way to live, There's a more superior 73 00:04:48,885 --> 00:04:49,485 Speaker 2: way to live. 74 00:04:50,045 --> 00:04:53,365 Speaker 1: It was Judaism, or it was religion really in its 75 00:04:53,405 --> 00:04:58,285 Speaker 1: most extreme form. Can you explain what the life of 76 00:04:58,685 --> 00:05:03,205 Speaker 1: a Jewish girl as you were growing up would look 77 00:05:03,365 --> 00:05:07,085 Speaker 1: like according to the faith and the way your religion 78 00:05:07,165 --> 00:05:09,765 Speaker 1: was practiced in your community, some of the things that 79 00:05:09,805 --> 00:05:13,525 Speaker 1: you had to do, say, dress, all of those things, 80 00:05:13,565 --> 00:05:15,165 Speaker 1: like from the moment you woke up, can you take 81 00:05:15,245 --> 00:05:16,245 Speaker 1: us through a typical day. 82 00:05:16,725 --> 00:05:18,525 Speaker 2: I mean, when I look back at my life and 83 00:05:18,565 --> 00:05:22,245 Speaker 2: I see that it was already predetermined before I even 84 00:05:22,365 --> 00:05:24,285 Speaker 2: was born, who I was going to be, what I 85 00:05:24,365 --> 00:05:26,645 Speaker 2: was going to do, what my journey was going to 86 00:05:26,645 --> 00:05:28,405 Speaker 2: be like. As a young woman growing up in the 87 00:05:28,485 --> 00:05:32,245 Speaker 2: Dusk community, and I knew my role was to do 88 00:05:32,285 --> 00:05:34,285 Speaker 2: everything that I needed to do in order to prepare 89 00:05:34,445 --> 00:05:36,885 Speaker 2: to become a wife and a mother. I was told 90 00:05:36,925 --> 00:05:39,405 Speaker 2: from very very young, I needed to be the person 91 00:05:39,445 --> 00:05:42,925 Speaker 2: that could support my husband in learning Torah and bring 92 00:05:43,005 --> 00:05:45,725 Speaker 2: up a Jewish family. That was my role, and a 93 00:05:45,725 --> 00:05:49,645 Speaker 2: lot of my childhood was framed around that idea. So 94 00:05:50,085 --> 00:05:53,045 Speaker 2: from very very young, we learned all the rules about 95 00:05:53,085 --> 00:05:55,685 Speaker 2: how to have a proper Jewish life. So I remember 96 00:05:55,725 --> 00:05:58,565 Speaker 2: being three years old and waking up and getting really 97 00:05:58,565 --> 00:06:01,005 Speaker 2: nervous about what way do I wash my hands? Because 98 00:06:01,005 --> 00:06:03,325 Speaker 2: there was a certain way about how to wash your hands. 99 00:06:03,485 --> 00:06:05,325 Speaker 2: What foot do you put out of your bed first? 100 00:06:05,365 --> 00:06:08,405 Speaker 2: Because it goes down to the minutus details. How do 101 00:06:08,445 --> 00:06:11,045 Speaker 2: you step out of bed, how do you get dressed? 102 00:06:11,285 --> 00:06:14,445 Speaker 2: There was rules around absolutely everything, how to go to 103 00:06:14,485 --> 00:06:17,125 Speaker 2: the bathroom, what do you do after the bathroom? So 104 00:06:17,245 --> 00:06:19,405 Speaker 2: I remember being very nervous as a little kid that 105 00:06:19,445 --> 00:06:21,125 Speaker 2: I was going to make a mistake and that I 106 00:06:21,125 --> 00:06:23,885 Speaker 2: wouldn't know what to do. But there was our schooling, 107 00:06:23,965 --> 00:06:26,325 Speaker 2: and my parents were reminding us all the time about 108 00:06:26,485 --> 00:06:30,125 Speaker 2: how to be that good Jewish girl. From three, I 109 00:06:30,205 --> 00:06:32,805 Speaker 2: knew that I had to in some ways be invisible 110 00:06:33,205 --> 00:06:37,165 Speaker 2: and not be seen, and not be recognized and be hidden. 111 00:06:37,485 --> 00:06:41,125 Speaker 2: And I knew I had to wear tights and long 112 00:06:41,205 --> 00:06:44,565 Speaker 2: dresses and skirts that go over my knees. The idea 113 00:06:44,845 --> 00:06:48,485 Speaker 2: was that modesty was very, very precious and I shouldn't 114 00:06:48,325 --> 00:06:51,765 Speaker 2: all bring attention to myself, and that was something that 115 00:06:52,125 --> 00:06:54,685 Speaker 2: you know, carried through right till I was an adult. 116 00:06:54,725 --> 00:06:57,045 Speaker 2: There was a very big separation between men and women 117 00:06:57,125 --> 00:06:59,805 Speaker 2: in the community, and I didn't speak to a man 118 00:07:00,125 --> 00:07:03,685 Speaker 2: except for my father until I actually sat down with 119 00:07:03,725 --> 00:07:05,045 Speaker 2: the man that I was going to marry. 120 00:07:05,405 --> 00:07:06,285 Speaker 1: How old were you then? 121 00:07:06,685 --> 00:07:09,445 Speaker 2: I was eighteen at the time, and my mother was 122 00:07:09,485 --> 00:07:12,165 Speaker 2: in the next room supervising our date to make sure 123 00:07:12,205 --> 00:07:14,645 Speaker 2: that we didn't touch. You know, I would have not 124 00:07:14,765 --> 00:07:18,365 Speaker 2: even thought about touching. The idea of touching this man 125 00:07:18,365 --> 00:07:20,325 Speaker 2: that I didn't know, this stranger, when I had never 126 00:07:20,405 --> 00:07:23,805 Speaker 2: spoken to another man, was so ludicrous to me. But 127 00:07:23,965 --> 00:07:26,725 Speaker 2: she was there to make sure that nothing underwards happened, 128 00:07:27,285 --> 00:07:30,165 Speaker 2: and we had four dates. I think it was over 129 00:07:30,245 --> 00:07:33,125 Speaker 2: a week, and by that weekend we were engaged. 130 00:07:33,485 --> 00:07:35,845 Speaker 1: The idea of following all those rules was that to 131 00:07:35,925 --> 00:07:36,565 Speaker 1: please God. 132 00:07:36,965 --> 00:07:39,445 Speaker 2: I grew up with a very fearful idea of God. 133 00:07:39,645 --> 00:07:44,045 Speaker 2: So God would punish anyone or anytime anything bad happened 134 00:07:44,085 --> 00:07:47,005 Speaker 2: to the community is because we had angered God or 135 00:07:47,165 --> 00:07:49,965 Speaker 2: you know, God was displeased in some way. And I 136 00:07:50,005 --> 00:07:52,845 Speaker 2: know my parents also really drew on that fear a 137 00:07:52,845 --> 00:07:55,805 Speaker 2: lot that you know, we would be bad Jewish girls. 138 00:07:56,205 --> 00:07:58,085 Speaker 2: And I wrote about this a little bit in my book. 139 00:07:58,165 --> 00:08:00,925 Speaker 2: But when I turned twelve, I knew that the responsibility 140 00:08:00,925 --> 00:08:02,485 Speaker 2: of being a good Jewish girl was on me. It 141 00:08:02,525 --> 00:08:04,885 Speaker 2: was no longer on my parents. And this idea that 142 00:08:05,245 --> 00:08:07,685 Speaker 2: I could be a good Jewish girl was something, you know, 143 00:08:07,685 --> 00:08:10,525 Speaker 2: I would rather die than turn twelve and know that 144 00:08:10,525 --> 00:08:11,885 Speaker 2: that responsibility was on me. 145 00:08:12,405 --> 00:08:14,845 Speaker 1: Were your parents born into that community. 146 00:08:14,685 --> 00:08:18,325 Speaker 2: They actually weren't. They joined the community when they moved 147 00:08:18,325 --> 00:08:20,965 Speaker 2: to Australia before I was born, quite a few years 148 00:08:21,005 --> 00:08:24,605 Speaker 2: before I was born, and they were welcomed by another 149 00:08:24,725 --> 00:08:29,005 Speaker 2: ultra Orthodox community, the Hubbad community. I imagine, coming as 150 00:08:29,045 --> 00:08:31,605 Speaker 2: immigrants to a new country, where did they come from. 151 00:08:31,965 --> 00:08:35,045 Speaker 2: They came from England. My mother was born in Israel, 152 00:08:35,125 --> 00:08:37,765 Speaker 2: my dad was born in England and they met when 153 00:08:37,885 --> 00:08:40,005 Speaker 2: they were both quite young as well. I think my 154 00:08:40,045 --> 00:08:43,285 Speaker 2: mother was sixteen and got married at seventeen to my 155 00:08:43,365 --> 00:08:46,805 Speaker 2: father and moved to England several years later with two 156 00:08:46,885 --> 00:08:47,605 Speaker 2: young children. 157 00:08:47,765 --> 00:08:50,005 Speaker 1: Were they both always very religious. 158 00:08:49,765 --> 00:08:53,085 Speaker 2: No, they weren't religious, so they kind of were traditional 159 00:08:53,685 --> 00:08:57,965 Speaker 2: culturally Jewish. They weren't religious at all actually, so they 160 00:08:58,045 --> 00:09:02,645 Speaker 2: moved here and were welcoming into this religious community. The 161 00:09:02,725 --> 00:09:05,645 Speaker 2: Hubbad community does do a lot of outreach, so they 162 00:09:05,725 --> 00:09:08,885 Speaker 2: were instantly you know, as these new immigrants had this 163 00:09:09,005 --> 00:09:11,805 Speaker 2: ready made community for them where people were very welcoming, 164 00:09:11,845 --> 00:09:15,365 Speaker 2: they were friendly, they were open. By the time I 165 00:09:15,525 --> 00:09:18,845 Speaker 2: was born, though, my parents had realized this was what 166 00:09:18,965 --> 00:09:21,565 Speaker 2: religious life was like. But they didn't want to be 167 00:09:21,645 --> 00:09:25,245 Speaker 2: in a community that welcomed outsiders and allowed everyone to 168 00:09:25,245 --> 00:09:27,885 Speaker 2: be a part of the community. They wanted the more exclusive, 169 00:09:27,925 --> 00:09:31,405 Speaker 2: a dust community that was very closed and very insular. 170 00:09:31,845 --> 00:09:35,245 Speaker 1: So it was almost like an even more extreme version 171 00:09:35,765 --> 00:09:39,765 Speaker 1: that they were looking for that was completely separate from 172 00:09:40,045 --> 00:09:42,325 Speaker 1: the rest of Melbourne and the rest of Australia and 173 00:09:42,365 --> 00:09:45,005 Speaker 1: the rest of the world. How many people were in 174 00:09:45,005 --> 00:09:48,165 Speaker 1: that community, and how do you actually live in a 175 00:09:48,205 --> 00:09:52,805 Speaker 1: community within a big city and not have any exposure. 176 00:09:52,925 --> 00:09:57,525 Speaker 2: Very easily actually, when you don't really go outside of 177 00:09:57,565 --> 00:10:00,085 Speaker 2: the community more. I think it was four blocks. I 178 00:10:00,125 --> 00:10:03,085 Speaker 2: pretty much lived my entire life up until eighteen. I mean, 179 00:10:03,125 --> 00:10:05,165 Speaker 2: of course we journeyed out and went to the country 180 00:10:05,205 --> 00:10:07,565 Speaker 2: or the beach or stuff like that. But I remember 181 00:10:07,725 --> 00:10:10,165 Speaker 2: going in the car and my parents passing a billboard 182 00:10:10,205 --> 00:10:11,965 Speaker 2: and telling us all to look down because there was 183 00:10:12,005 --> 00:10:15,165 Speaker 2: something immodest on the billboard and we couldn't look. So 184 00:10:15,445 --> 00:10:20,565 Speaker 2: we lived pretty much within those four blocks where everything existed, 185 00:10:20,645 --> 00:10:24,485 Speaker 2: Jewish shops and my school or my friends lived within 186 00:10:24,525 --> 00:10:26,405 Speaker 2: that you know kind of area. 187 00:10:26,485 --> 00:10:30,245 Speaker 1: You know, what about things like services like doctors and police, 188 00:10:30,565 --> 00:10:33,405 Speaker 1: and you know, having to go and get your driver's license. 189 00:10:33,845 --> 00:10:35,725 Speaker 1: The members of the at US community must have had 190 00:10:35,725 --> 00:10:38,965 Speaker 1: to interact with the secular world to do those things, 191 00:10:39,085 --> 00:10:41,485 Speaker 1: or was everything within those four blocks. 192 00:10:42,205 --> 00:10:44,405 Speaker 2: Not as a young girl, and definitely not even as 193 00:10:44,445 --> 00:10:47,325 Speaker 2: a teenager, so I didn't get my driver's license. That 194 00:10:47,445 --> 00:10:49,765 Speaker 2: was something that, you know, if my husband allowed it 195 00:10:49,805 --> 00:10:51,645 Speaker 2: when I got married, that would be something that I 196 00:10:51,685 --> 00:10:56,325 Speaker 2: would discuss with him. There were people that existed outside 197 00:10:56,325 --> 00:10:58,925 Speaker 2: of the community or worked outside of the community, but 198 00:10:59,005 --> 00:11:01,445 Speaker 2: it was kept very, very protected from the young people 199 00:11:01,485 --> 00:11:04,485 Speaker 2: and the community. Like my father had to sign something 200 00:11:04,605 --> 00:11:06,765 Speaker 2: with the school to say that he didn't use internet 201 00:11:06,965 --> 00:11:09,085 Speaker 2: at home, and if he did have internet at home 202 00:11:09,445 --> 00:11:12,205 Speaker 2: was heavily heavily filtered. But he worked in it, so 203 00:11:12,245 --> 00:11:13,845 Speaker 2: he needed to have internet at home. 204 00:11:14,165 --> 00:11:16,485 Speaker 1: So people within the community, there are about two hundred 205 00:11:16,485 --> 00:11:20,765 Speaker 1: and fifty families. You said within Theodas community, they did 206 00:11:20,885 --> 00:11:24,125 Speaker 1: often the men, I assume not the women worked outside 207 00:11:24,125 --> 00:11:27,125 Speaker 1: the community, right, because how did they earn money. 208 00:11:27,285 --> 00:11:30,525 Speaker 2: There's a lot of different businesses within the community. And 209 00:11:30,605 --> 00:11:33,245 Speaker 2: as a young person, I wasn't aware of people working 210 00:11:33,325 --> 00:11:34,805 Speaker 2: outside of the community. I mean I kind of had 211 00:11:34,805 --> 00:11:37,165 Speaker 2: a knowledge, but it was something, Oh, maybe the men 212 00:11:37,245 --> 00:11:39,765 Speaker 2: do that and they don't bring it at all into 213 00:11:39,765 --> 00:11:40,445 Speaker 2: the community. 214 00:11:40,765 --> 00:11:43,045 Speaker 1: What was your understanding of the outside world, Like you 215 00:11:43,085 --> 00:11:44,805 Speaker 1: had a lot of siblings. How many siblings did you 216 00:11:44,845 --> 00:11:45,485 Speaker 1: have growing up? 217 00:11:45,725 --> 00:11:46,765 Speaker 2: Six siblings? 218 00:11:47,125 --> 00:11:49,805 Speaker 1: What was your understanding of what was outside the community. 219 00:11:50,325 --> 00:11:53,885 Speaker 2: It wasn't something that was of any importance to me, actually, 220 00:11:54,045 --> 00:11:56,085 Speaker 2: so I'm just trying to think back. I don't remember 221 00:11:56,165 --> 00:12:01,125 Speaker 2: having conversations with my siblings about what was beyond the 222 00:12:01,165 --> 00:12:04,165 Speaker 2: existence that we were living within. There was too much 223 00:12:04,205 --> 00:12:07,525 Speaker 2: going on, you know, within my family home and even 224 00:12:07,565 --> 00:12:10,405 Speaker 2: within my schooling to even think on that. When I 225 00:12:10,405 --> 00:12:12,845 Speaker 2: would see it on the street, it was this other. 226 00:12:13,205 --> 00:12:16,005 Speaker 2: It was very much that was something that I would 227 00:12:16,045 --> 00:12:18,325 Speaker 2: never be a part of, never expected to be a 228 00:12:18,365 --> 00:12:20,685 Speaker 2: part of, and almost didn't never want it to be 229 00:12:20,725 --> 00:12:22,765 Speaker 2: a part of, because I was taught that the way 230 00:12:22,805 --> 00:12:25,645 Speaker 2: I was living was so superior and so much better, 231 00:12:26,165 --> 00:12:29,005 Speaker 2: that that was the most important and best way to live. 232 00:12:29,125 --> 00:12:32,325 Speaker 2: So it was almost like everything else was beneath me 233 00:12:32,845 --> 00:12:34,765 Speaker 2: or beneath our way of living. 234 00:12:35,285 --> 00:12:37,685 Speaker 1: When you were around twelve, there was a break in 235 00:12:37,805 --> 00:12:40,125 Speaker 1: at your house and your parents had to call the police. 236 00:12:40,445 --> 00:12:43,845 Speaker 2: What happened, we were sent to our rooms so that 237 00:12:43,925 --> 00:12:47,045 Speaker 2: we at all, you know, didn't interact with the police 238 00:12:47,245 --> 00:12:51,125 Speaker 2: or didn't have an understanding of the secular world outside 239 00:12:51,125 --> 00:12:54,005 Speaker 2: of our community. In any case, we were terrified of 240 00:12:54,045 --> 00:12:56,405 Speaker 2: the police, and we were told, you know, as young kids, 241 00:12:56,405 --> 00:12:59,725 Speaker 2: that engaging with any of those people outside of the community, 242 00:12:59,765 --> 00:13:02,645 Speaker 2: including the police, would pull us away and tear us 243 00:13:02,645 --> 00:13:04,365 Speaker 2: away from our way of living. 244 00:13:05,085 --> 00:13:07,445 Speaker 1: When I heard your story and when I picked up 245 00:13:07,485 --> 00:13:10,565 Speaker 1: your book. I expected the period in your life when 246 00:13:10,605 --> 00:13:13,805 Speaker 1: you were abused by Michael Laifert to be the low 247 00:13:13,885 --> 00:13:18,685 Speaker 1: point in your life so far. What shocked me was 248 00:13:19,005 --> 00:13:22,525 Speaker 1: the devastating abuse you'd experienced in your own home before that. 249 00:13:24,085 --> 00:13:25,725 Speaker 1: I'm not going to push you on all of the 250 00:13:25,765 --> 00:13:28,005 Speaker 1: things that happened, but I want you to tell me 251 00:13:28,045 --> 00:13:29,005 Speaker 1: a little bit about your mother. 252 00:13:29,525 --> 00:13:34,205 Speaker 2: So, my mother was extremely abusive, but her abuse had 253 00:13:34,445 --> 00:13:39,645 Speaker 2: a cruelty to it. We were utterly, utterly terrified of her, 254 00:13:40,205 --> 00:13:43,445 Speaker 2: and I think she wanted that fear. She wanted us 255 00:13:43,525 --> 00:13:48,405 Speaker 2: to be these little robots that did and exactly as 256 00:13:48,685 --> 00:13:51,405 Speaker 2: she expected, and when we didn't, there was a very 257 00:13:51,485 --> 00:13:55,445 Speaker 2: very heavy price to pay. And maybe instead of explaining 258 00:13:55,445 --> 00:13:58,125 Speaker 2: to you kind of what that was like, I can 259 00:13:58,205 --> 00:14:01,605 Speaker 2: kind of share a story with you about that speaks 260 00:14:01,605 --> 00:14:05,365 Speaker 2: to how it was to live in that house. I mean, 261 00:14:05,365 --> 00:14:07,685 Speaker 2: we experienced a lot of fear and a lot of hunger. 262 00:14:07,725 --> 00:14:09,925 Speaker 2: Those are the two emotions that I look about and think. 263 00:14:10,245 --> 00:14:12,645 Speaker 2: We were hungry all the time. Food withdraw was used 264 00:14:12,685 --> 00:14:16,605 Speaker 2: as a constant punishment. And I remember when we were 265 00:14:17,245 --> 00:14:20,885 Speaker 2: maybe young teenagers. By this time, my siblings had kind 266 00:14:20,925 --> 00:14:23,285 Speaker 2: of were banded together and realized that we needed each 267 00:14:23,285 --> 00:14:26,965 Speaker 2: other in order to survive. And my young brother would 268 00:14:27,005 --> 00:14:29,045 Speaker 2: steal a little, you know, a couple of dollars from 269 00:14:29,045 --> 00:14:31,645 Speaker 2: my father's draw and he would ride off because as 270 00:14:31,645 --> 00:14:33,365 Speaker 2: a boy he was allowed to, you know, ride on 271 00:14:33,365 --> 00:14:35,365 Speaker 2: a bike. We weren't allowed to as girls because it 272 00:14:35,365 --> 00:14:37,845 Speaker 2: wasn't modest. But as a boy, he would get on 273 00:14:37,925 --> 00:14:39,845 Speaker 2: his bike and ride down to the stores and he 274 00:14:39,885 --> 00:14:43,565 Speaker 2: would buy something for us to eat, and he would 275 00:14:43,565 --> 00:14:46,485 Speaker 2: bring it home. And we were so terrified of my 276 00:14:46,565 --> 00:14:48,805 Speaker 2: mother finding out that we had bought something to eat, 277 00:14:48,885 --> 00:14:51,605 Speaker 2: and our time was so so so controlled that she 278 00:14:51,685 --> 00:14:53,925 Speaker 2: knew what we were doing at all times. So my 279 00:14:54,005 --> 00:14:56,245 Speaker 2: brother would actually tie up the food in a bag 280 00:14:56,325 --> 00:14:59,485 Speaker 2: and throw it up onto the roof of the garage, 281 00:14:59,965 --> 00:15:02,205 Speaker 2: and then later on in the evening, when my mother 282 00:15:02,285 --> 00:15:04,645 Speaker 2: had gone to sleep and we knew that it was safe, 283 00:15:04,885 --> 00:15:07,125 Speaker 2: he would actually climb back up onto the roof, bring 284 00:15:07,165 --> 00:15:09,325 Speaker 2: down the food, and then we would all share it together, 285 00:15:10,205 --> 00:15:13,125 Speaker 2: and it was a moment of really close bonding. But 286 00:15:13,205 --> 00:15:15,965 Speaker 2: it really speaks to that fear that we had and 287 00:15:16,005 --> 00:15:18,285 Speaker 2: the control of every minute of what we were doing, 288 00:15:18,405 --> 00:15:21,485 Speaker 2: and that intense hunger, but also the way that we 289 00:15:21,605 --> 00:15:24,125 Speaker 2: kind of banded together as siblings, you know that still 290 00:15:24,125 --> 00:15:28,165 Speaker 2: exist till today, to help each other survive through that time. 291 00:15:28,725 --> 00:15:32,365 Speaker 1: The idea that there could be little children being staffed 292 00:15:32,365 --> 00:15:34,525 Speaker 1: by their own parents as a form of abuse in 293 00:15:34,565 --> 00:15:39,885 Speaker 1: the middle of a bustling city and what should have 294 00:15:39,925 --> 00:15:44,965 Speaker 1: been from the outside a loving community is so deeply shocking. 295 00:15:45,565 --> 00:15:48,205 Speaker 1: But to you, that was just life, That was just 296 00:15:48,245 --> 00:15:49,445 Speaker 1: your childhood. 297 00:15:49,005 --> 00:15:52,965 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, And it wasn't something that the community even 298 00:15:53,245 --> 00:15:56,885 Speaker 2: were aware of, or I mean, there must have been signs, 299 00:15:56,965 --> 00:16:00,485 Speaker 2: but they weren't educated enough to understand what those signs were. 300 00:16:01,045 --> 00:16:03,325 Speaker 2: I was led to believe that if I was abused, 301 00:16:03,325 --> 00:16:06,725 Speaker 2: there was something wrong obviously with me that you deserved it. 302 00:16:06,925 --> 00:16:09,685 Speaker 2: There's this big black mark against my name. I would 303 00:16:09,725 --> 00:16:12,365 Speaker 2: never get married if people know that I'm abused. So 304 00:16:12,405 --> 00:16:15,205 Speaker 2: there was all the intention in all of my sibling 305 00:16:15,605 --> 00:16:18,325 Speaker 2: to hide that abuse as much as possible, because we 306 00:16:18,405 --> 00:16:20,965 Speaker 2: would be seen as something wrong or bad, and we 307 00:16:21,045 --> 00:16:24,125 Speaker 2: knew the only way of leaving home and maturing and 308 00:16:24,845 --> 00:16:27,005 Speaker 2: having an independent life was to get married. 309 00:16:27,645 --> 00:16:31,485 Speaker 1: So in that way, that's so evil. Your parents conscripted 310 00:16:31,525 --> 00:16:35,445 Speaker 1: you into hiding their abuse. We would have been scandalous 311 00:16:35,445 --> 00:16:36,885 Speaker 1: had it have been known or is that what was 312 00:16:36,925 --> 00:16:39,485 Speaker 1: happening in every family? What have you learned since then? 313 00:16:39,885 --> 00:16:43,285 Speaker 2: That was definitely happening in many, many families. The abuse 314 00:16:43,925 --> 00:16:47,845 Speaker 2: and still even today, you know, abuse at home, domestic violence, 315 00:16:48,165 --> 00:16:52,285 Speaker 2: sexual abuse, sexual abuse happening between siblings, all of that 316 00:16:52,445 --> 00:16:56,645 Speaker 2: is still kept extremely, extremely hidden. And it's this idea 317 00:16:56,765 --> 00:16:59,525 Speaker 2: that if the abuse is a part of your family, 318 00:17:00,085 --> 00:17:02,925 Speaker 2: it affects all the children in the family. The matchmakers 319 00:17:02,965 --> 00:17:05,085 Speaker 2: just won't look at you. And that's still the way 320 00:17:05,165 --> 00:17:07,205 Speaker 2: that marriage happens within the community. 321 00:17:07,685 --> 00:17:11,125 Speaker 1: Wow, So your well, parents would do things like just 322 00:17:11,245 --> 00:17:13,685 Speaker 1: drop you off at a park. Tell me about that. 323 00:17:14,285 --> 00:17:17,565 Speaker 2: Well, at different points, my mother would just you know, 324 00:17:17,605 --> 00:17:20,205 Speaker 2: announce that one of her children or several of her 325 00:17:20,285 --> 00:17:23,565 Speaker 2: children were not her children anymore, and you know, she's 326 00:17:23,765 --> 00:17:26,125 Speaker 2: disowned them. They're not her children anymore. They don't deserve 327 00:17:26,205 --> 00:17:29,245 Speaker 2: to be a part of our family. And she would 328 00:17:29,245 --> 00:17:32,085 Speaker 2: ask my father to take one of us, or sometimes 329 00:17:32,125 --> 00:17:33,685 Speaker 2: a couple of us, and just drop us off at 330 00:17:33,685 --> 00:17:36,925 Speaker 2: a park and you know, leave us there, abandon us there. 331 00:17:36,965 --> 00:17:38,645 Speaker 2: And of course, as young children, we didn't know that 332 00:17:38,685 --> 00:17:40,645 Speaker 2: eventually she would come back and pick us up. When 333 00:17:40,685 --> 00:17:44,685 Speaker 2: hangar had settled, we literally thought we had been abandoned, 334 00:17:44,725 --> 00:17:47,445 Speaker 2: and we had no idea what to do, and being 335 00:17:47,485 --> 00:17:50,565 Speaker 2: so insular and not having any understanding of the outside world, 336 00:17:51,245 --> 00:17:54,445 Speaker 2: we did nothing. We literally just stood there hiding behind 337 00:17:54,485 --> 00:17:57,365 Speaker 2: some bush or some bench or something, not knowing what 338 00:17:57,445 --> 00:17:59,565 Speaker 2: to do or where to go or how to exist. 339 00:17:59,965 --> 00:18:01,885 Speaker 1: And you were taught to have such fear of the 340 00:18:01,925 --> 00:18:04,565 Speaker 1: secular world and the people in it that it wouldn't 341 00:18:04,565 --> 00:18:06,485 Speaker 1: have occurred to you to go and ask someone for help. 342 00:18:07,085 --> 00:18:10,525 Speaker 2: Not at all. This idea that my mother could send 343 00:18:10,605 --> 00:18:14,645 Speaker 2: us to this outside world really double down on the 344 00:18:14,725 --> 00:18:17,565 Speaker 2: idea of how bad we were. We must have been terrible, 345 00:18:17,725 --> 00:18:20,565 Speaker 2: terrible children, because you know, the secular world is so 346 00:18:21,285 --> 00:18:22,925 Speaker 2: bad and here we are being sent. 347 00:18:22,805 --> 00:18:25,725 Speaker 1: There, literally cast out into the wilderness. 348 00:18:26,045 --> 00:18:27,605 Speaker 2: That's exactly what it felt. 349 00:18:27,845 --> 00:18:30,565 Speaker 1: So where did school fit into all of this? I mean, 350 00:18:30,605 --> 00:18:33,045 Speaker 1: you had to go to school. What is school for 351 00:18:33,285 --> 00:18:36,085 Speaker 1: girls and boys within the ad Us community. 352 00:18:36,645 --> 00:18:40,005 Speaker 2: So school was my safe place for a long time. 353 00:18:40,525 --> 00:18:42,645 Speaker 2: You know, it was a place that turned up. At 354 00:18:42,805 --> 00:18:45,565 Speaker 2: eight thirty we started school. We did prayers for half 355 00:18:45,605 --> 00:18:49,285 Speaker 2: an hour, We had Jewish classes till about one or 356 00:18:49,285 --> 00:18:52,565 Speaker 2: two o'clock in the afternoon, had lunch and then we 357 00:18:52,605 --> 00:18:55,365 Speaker 2: would have our English and maths, and of course we 358 00:18:55,365 --> 00:18:57,645 Speaker 2: were taught at school. You know, we don't need English 359 00:18:57,685 --> 00:18:59,325 Speaker 2: and maths if we're going to grow up and have 360 00:18:59,445 --> 00:19:02,485 Speaker 2: kids and support our husbands. What do we need that for? 361 00:19:02,845 --> 00:19:06,405 Speaker 2: Our school life was very heavily focused on Jewish studies. 362 00:19:06,965 --> 00:19:09,525 Speaker 1: And how is the education or the school life a 363 00:19:09,565 --> 00:19:12,085 Speaker 1: girl different to the school life of a boy. What 364 00:19:12,085 --> 00:19:13,325 Speaker 1: did your brothers do at school? 365 00:19:13,725 --> 00:19:16,125 Speaker 2: My brothers had quite a similar life, but they were 366 00:19:16,125 --> 00:19:19,165 Speaker 2: actually taught in Yiddish and they had I would think, 367 00:19:19,245 --> 00:19:23,525 Speaker 2: even less secular education than we did. The idea is 368 00:19:23,565 --> 00:19:26,805 Speaker 2: that the boys grow up and study Torah and they 369 00:19:26,925 --> 00:19:30,045 Speaker 2: finish studying any secular education at around year eight. 370 00:19:30,405 --> 00:19:33,405 Speaker 1: So what did you see as a girl when you're 371 00:19:33,445 --> 00:19:35,965 Speaker 1: at school that your life would be like? Like when 372 00:19:36,005 --> 00:19:39,165 Speaker 1: you looked at Darcy's future, what did you imagine that 373 00:19:39,205 --> 00:19:39,805 Speaker 1: it was going to be. 374 00:19:40,405 --> 00:19:42,925 Speaker 2: I very very much hoped that the matchmaker would find 375 00:19:42,965 --> 00:19:45,725 Speaker 2: me someone that I could get married to, that I 376 00:19:45,765 --> 00:19:49,125 Speaker 2: would get married and create a home with my husband, 377 00:19:49,325 --> 00:19:51,685 Speaker 2: and that I would have as many children as I 378 00:19:51,725 --> 00:19:54,005 Speaker 2: was able to. That was my life and I was 379 00:19:54,045 --> 00:19:55,205 Speaker 2: excited for that life. 380 00:19:56,965 --> 00:19:59,685 Speaker 1: You'll hear more of my conversation with Darcy Elk after 381 00:19:59,725 --> 00:20:08,525 Speaker 1: the short break stay with us and so into this 382 00:20:08,965 --> 00:20:15,605 Speaker 1: very difficult situation with these very vulnerable kids. In walked Malkalafa. 383 00:20:15,685 --> 00:20:18,365 Speaker 1: When was the first time that you met her, must. 384 00:20:18,205 --> 00:20:23,885 Speaker 2: Have been in year nine, year ten. I have this 385 00:20:24,085 --> 00:20:29,365 Speaker 2: really clear memory of the prior principle being forced to 386 00:20:29,445 --> 00:20:35,245 Speaker 2: resign and hearing that Malkalaifer had taken over as the 387 00:20:35,285 --> 00:20:38,005 Speaker 2: new principal of the school because the former principal had 388 00:20:38,045 --> 00:20:41,525 Speaker 2: an education, a secular education, and she wasn't religious enough. 389 00:20:41,605 --> 00:20:43,805 Speaker 2: That was my understanding as a young girl. 390 00:20:44,245 --> 00:20:48,165 Speaker 1: Lifa came from Israel with her family. What was her 391 00:20:48,205 --> 00:20:49,165 Speaker 1: family situation. 392 00:20:49,725 --> 00:20:52,605 Speaker 2: She came with her husband and quite a few kids, 393 00:20:52,605 --> 00:20:54,245 Speaker 2: and she had quite a few kids while she was 394 00:20:54,285 --> 00:20:55,205 Speaker 2: in Australia. 395 00:20:55,325 --> 00:20:56,845 Speaker 1: It sounds like she was a real figure. 396 00:20:57,165 --> 00:21:00,205 Speaker 2: She was and it was completely mind blowing, I think 397 00:21:00,205 --> 00:21:02,805 Speaker 2: to everyone in the community. He was this woman who 398 00:21:02,845 --> 00:21:05,965 Speaker 2: wasn't just respected because her husband was a rabbi, this 399 00:21:06,005 --> 00:21:10,485 Speaker 2: woman that was this utter powerhouse. Everybody respected her in 400 00:21:10,525 --> 00:21:13,965 Speaker 2: the community. I had never seen anything like that growing up. 401 00:21:14,165 --> 00:21:16,125 Speaker 2: You know, it was always the men that led everything. 402 00:21:16,205 --> 00:21:18,245 Speaker 2: It was always the men that you know, we went 403 00:21:18,285 --> 00:21:20,805 Speaker 2: to for advice, and suddenly there was this woman that 404 00:21:20,885 --> 00:21:24,765 Speaker 2: people were so in awe of. It was something unlike 405 00:21:24,805 --> 00:21:25,885 Speaker 2: anything I had ever seen. 406 00:21:26,445 --> 00:21:28,685 Speaker 1: How did she get the respective men in the community. 407 00:21:29,325 --> 00:21:32,085 Speaker 2: She was said to have had the roofs, which is 408 00:21:32,125 --> 00:21:36,525 Speaker 2: like the overarching rabbi's ear, and he was someone that 409 00:21:36,605 --> 00:21:38,885 Speaker 2: was very well respected in the community, and to get 410 00:21:38,885 --> 00:21:41,805 Speaker 2: an audience with him was, you know, particularly hard. So 411 00:21:41,805 --> 00:21:44,765 Speaker 2: the fact she had this open communication with him and 412 00:21:44,845 --> 00:21:48,485 Speaker 2: could go to him for everything in some ways, that 413 00:21:48,605 --> 00:21:49,765 Speaker 2: drew a lot of respect. 414 00:21:50,165 --> 00:21:53,325 Speaker 1: So how did Maklaifer relate to the girls? Like? How 415 00:21:53,365 --> 00:21:54,965 Speaker 1: did she interact with them? At school? 416 00:21:55,285 --> 00:21:58,285 Speaker 2: I would say there was probably about maybe two hundred 417 00:21:58,325 --> 00:22:01,885 Speaker 2: and fifty kids across the boys and girls school. I 418 00:22:01,885 --> 00:22:07,925 Speaker 2: remember her being incredibly, incredibly warm, vivacious. She was just 419 00:22:07,965 --> 00:22:10,885 Speaker 2: this person that could do everything, and she was everywhere 420 00:22:10,925 --> 00:22:15,005 Speaker 2: all the time. She had this really big, bubbly personality. 421 00:22:16,005 --> 00:22:21,685 Speaker 2: She was just this very warm, engaging person that people felt, 422 00:22:21,765 --> 00:22:23,925 Speaker 2: you know, they just wanted to be closer to her. 423 00:22:24,285 --> 00:22:27,085 Speaker 1: It sounded like she was your first experience of adult 424 00:22:27,165 --> 00:22:28,805 Speaker 1: kindness in your life. 425 00:22:29,205 --> 00:22:32,685 Speaker 2: At first. At first, I really did believe he was 426 00:22:32,725 --> 00:22:36,365 Speaker 2: this woman that, you know, everyone looked up to and 427 00:22:36,405 --> 00:22:38,685 Speaker 2: she's being kind to me. She's pulling me into her 428 00:22:38,805 --> 00:22:41,245 Speaker 2: inner circle, which is a place everyone wanted to be. 429 00:22:41,925 --> 00:22:43,885 Speaker 1: When was the first time that she sort of picked 430 00:22:43,925 --> 00:22:45,605 Speaker 1: you out of the pack, as it were. 431 00:22:46,405 --> 00:22:50,085 Speaker 2: I remember I was in year ten, and by that 432 00:22:50,205 --> 00:22:53,245 Speaker 2: time she had her favorite girl, She had the people 433 00:22:53,285 --> 00:22:55,205 Speaker 2: that she called on the most that she took into 434 00:22:55,245 --> 00:22:57,925 Speaker 2: her office to speak to privately, you know, with all 435 00:22:57,925 --> 00:23:01,525 Speaker 2: the blinds down and the doors closed. And I remember thinking, 436 00:23:01,765 --> 00:23:04,165 Speaker 2: if only I had like an adult that, you know, 437 00:23:04,205 --> 00:23:06,685 Speaker 2: that would talk to me like that, that I could 438 00:23:06,685 --> 00:23:09,245 Speaker 2: share with what was happening at home, that I could trust. 439 00:23:10,285 --> 00:23:13,285 Speaker 2: It must have been around year ten she called me 440 00:23:13,325 --> 00:23:16,285 Speaker 2: into office and she said, you know, I've spoken to 441 00:23:16,325 --> 00:23:20,645 Speaker 2: your older sister, Nicole, and she's told me a little 442 00:23:20,645 --> 00:23:24,125 Speaker 2: bit about what's going on at home, and I'm here 443 00:23:24,165 --> 00:23:27,085 Speaker 2: to talk if you need someone to talk to. I mean, 444 00:23:27,125 --> 00:23:29,965 Speaker 2: because I didn't speak to Nicole about these things. You know, 445 00:23:30,005 --> 00:23:31,685 Speaker 2: this idea that she knew what was going on at home, 446 00:23:31,725 --> 00:23:35,325 Speaker 2: something that was so hidden and so secretive, and that 447 00:23:35,365 --> 00:23:37,245 Speaker 2: she had approached me and said to me I could 448 00:23:37,285 --> 00:23:41,125 Speaker 2: talk to her about that. It was this instant trust, 449 00:23:41,365 --> 00:23:46,205 Speaker 2: and you desire to be able to have that with someone. 450 00:23:46,485 --> 00:23:50,925 Speaker 1: With what you know? Now, was she abusing other girls already? 451 00:23:51,205 --> 00:23:53,845 Speaker 1: Like from soon after she arrived. 452 00:23:53,965 --> 00:23:58,125 Speaker 2: She was, And all those times that I witnessed her 453 00:23:58,205 --> 00:24:02,245 Speaker 2: in halfice with her lines closed and you know, her 454 00:24:02,245 --> 00:24:05,685 Speaker 2: doors closed, I came to know why that was happening. 455 00:24:06,285 --> 00:24:08,045 Speaker 1: Now, Darcy, I don't want to ask you to recount 456 00:24:08,085 --> 00:24:11,565 Speaker 1: the specifics of these but something I want you to 457 00:24:11,565 --> 00:24:15,845 Speaker 1: help me understand is the context in which she led 458 00:24:15,885 --> 00:24:18,005 Speaker 1: you to believe that what she was doing was okay. 459 00:24:18,445 --> 00:24:21,565 Speaker 2: She very much had this sense of intimacy when she 460 00:24:21,685 --> 00:24:24,565 Speaker 2: was talking to me. You know, I'm here for you. You know, 461 00:24:24,645 --> 00:24:26,405 Speaker 2: this is how I show that I'm close to you. 462 00:24:26,485 --> 00:24:29,365 Speaker 2: When she was touching me, this is what a mother does. 463 00:24:29,805 --> 00:24:32,125 Speaker 2: And knowing that my mother was different to other mothers 464 00:24:32,165 --> 00:24:35,005 Speaker 2: and was abusive, I really believe them and maybe this 465 00:24:35,045 --> 00:24:37,965 Speaker 2: is what loving mothers do to their daughters. That was 466 00:24:38,085 --> 00:24:43,645 Speaker 2: my complete innocence and naivity around absolutely anything that she 467 00:24:43,805 --> 00:24:44,405 Speaker 2: was doing to me. 468 00:24:47,125 --> 00:24:49,005 Speaker 1: Now I'm just jumping in to tell you. I didn't 469 00:24:49,005 --> 00:24:51,725 Speaker 1: want to ask Darcy to recount the specifics of the 470 00:24:51,765 --> 00:24:55,045 Speaker 1: abuse she suffered at the hands of Malclafer because she's 471 00:24:55,085 --> 00:24:58,525 Speaker 1: had to recount it so many times, to so many people. 472 00:24:58,645 --> 00:25:00,645 Speaker 1: And at the start, I told you about the memoir 473 00:25:00,685 --> 00:25:03,325 Speaker 1: she's written. It's her book called In Bad Faith, and 474 00:25:03,365 --> 00:25:06,245 Speaker 1: we're using some clips of the audio version of her book, 475 00:25:06,285 --> 00:25:09,845 Speaker 1: of course, with her permission, which Darcie narrates. This is 476 00:25:09,845 --> 00:25:12,405 Speaker 1: her recounting the beginning of the abuse when she was 477 00:25:12,485 --> 00:25:13,645 Speaker 1: just fifteen years old. 478 00:25:14,485 --> 00:25:17,565 Speaker 2: I had never been a speaker. Silence had always been 479 00:25:17,645 --> 00:25:22,445 Speaker 2: my friend. My parents' abuse expected silence. Obedience is silent, 480 00:25:23,205 --> 00:25:27,365 Speaker 2: Silence is safe. Missus Lifer moved her arm to my knees. 481 00:25:27,805 --> 00:25:30,285 Speaker 2: Her touch was reassuring, and I didn't want it to stop. 482 00:25:30,605 --> 00:25:33,485 Speaker 2: Her hand traveled up my thigh, and even with my 483 00:25:33,525 --> 00:25:37,125 Speaker 2: gaze lowered, I could feel her watching me. Now she 484 00:25:37,205 --> 00:25:42,885 Speaker 2: realized what she's doing. Overwhelmed, I kept silent. She continued 485 00:25:42,925 --> 00:25:45,965 Speaker 2: to move her hand up my thigh. This is weird, 486 00:25:46,045 --> 00:25:50,405 Speaker 2: but she's Missus Lifer. It must be okay. I didn't 487 00:25:50,445 --> 00:25:52,965 Speaker 2: know it then, but this was a start of a pattern, 488 00:25:53,565 --> 00:25:56,685 Speaker 2: one that would escalate. I went to lessons with missus 489 00:25:56,725 --> 00:26:00,285 Speaker 2: Lfer for several weeks. I never found my words. The 490 00:26:00,325 --> 00:26:03,605 Speaker 2: longer I was silent, the more Missus Lifer touched my body. 491 00:26:04,405 --> 00:26:06,765 Speaker 2: She told me. I was closed, and she needed to 492 00:26:06,805 --> 00:26:09,245 Speaker 2: help open me up, help me to trust her. 493 00:26:09,845 --> 00:26:12,205 Speaker 1: And this from when she was a little older. As 494 00:26:12,245 --> 00:26:13,845 Speaker 1: the abuse progressed. 495 00:26:13,965 --> 00:26:18,005 Speaker 2: From far above, I saw myself a picture of passivity, 496 00:26:18,805 --> 00:26:22,565 Speaker 2: eyes that were empty and saw no color, a frozen 497 00:26:22,605 --> 00:26:25,885 Speaker 2: sack of skin and bones. I escaped to a place 498 00:26:26,445 --> 00:26:30,965 Speaker 2: she could not reach. I watched her and worseless fingers 499 00:26:31,045 --> 00:26:34,205 Speaker 2: undress me, the crawl of her touch over my skin. 500 00:26:35,125 --> 00:26:39,325 Speaker 2: She kissed and caressed me, Her mouth tasted me, her 501 00:26:39,325 --> 00:26:42,845 Speaker 2: body was excited, and she wanted a reaction from mine. 502 00:26:43,445 --> 00:26:46,645 Speaker 2: That I was not there in that room. I did 503 00:26:46,685 --> 00:26:51,085 Speaker 2: not exist. She had killed me, a silent death no 504 00:26:51,125 --> 00:26:54,605 Speaker 2: one would ever know about, no one would ever believe me. 505 00:26:59,365 --> 00:27:01,845 Speaker 1: When you're growing up in this community, I'm going to 506 00:27:01,885 --> 00:27:03,845 Speaker 1: guess that you don't have a lot of access to 507 00:27:03,925 --> 00:27:07,605 Speaker 1: sex education or information about your own body. What did 508 00:27:07,645 --> 00:27:11,405 Speaker 1: you understand about your body and sex? 509 00:27:12,245 --> 00:27:17,045 Speaker 2: Absolutely nothing. What I knew about my body was that 510 00:27:17,125 --> 00:27:21,165 Speaker 2: it was to be hidden, to be covered, to ensure 511 00:27:21,205 --> 00:27:24,605 Speaker 2: that I do not draw the attraction of men, that 512 00:27:24,765 --> 00:27:27,165 Speaker 2: I do not show my shape of my body in 513 00:27:27,205 --> 00:27:30,365 Speaker 2: any way. So always wearing loose clothes and nothing that 514 00:27:30,445 --> 00:27:34,325 Speaker 2: was too revealing, a woman's body is not something that 515 00:27:34,885 --> 00:27:38,245 Speaker 2: we think about, we discussed, we talk about. I didn't 516 00:27:38,245 --> 00:27:41,085 Speaker 2: know the names even of different parts of my body. 517 00:27:41,165 --> 00:27:43,245 Speaker 2: I didn't know I had certain parts of my body. 518 00:27:43,485 --> 00:27:45,605 Speaker 2: My whole body was shrouded in secrecy. 519 00:27:46,045 --> 00:27:49,085 Speaker 1: Had you ever had anyone be physically affectionate with you before, 520 00:27:49,605 --> 00:27:53,645 Speaker 1: touch you in a way that wasn't literally painful, like 521 00:27:54,005 --> 00:27:59,125 Speaker 1: just hugs and touching and holding your hand or stroking 522 00:27:59,125 --> 00:28:01,525 Speaker 1: your hair, all the things that kids grow up with 523 00:28:01,765 --> 00:28:04,685 Speaker 1: in the non sexual context. Had you ever experienced those 524 00:28:04,725 --> 00:28:05,405 Speaker 1: things before? 525 00:28:06,005 --> 00:28:08,845 Speaker 2: No, And that wasn't even a way that let's say 526 00:28:08,845 --> 00:28:11,285 Speaker 2: I interact with my friends like, we didn't hug each other. 527 00:28:11,485 --> 00:28:14,685 Speaker 2: We didn't you know, this idea of just even touching 528 00:28:14,685 --> 00:28:18,085 Speaker 2: each other in affectionate ways just didn't exist. So when 529 00:28:18,205 --> 00:28:20,725 Speaker 2: lifea came and she started, you know, putting her arm 530 00:28:20,765 --> 00:28:24,485 Speaker 2: around girls or pulling them in for a hug, people 531 00:28:24,565 --> 00:28:27,445 Speaker 2: just saw that, oh, that's her different ways, that's not 532 00:28:27,525 --> 00:28:30,045 Speaker 2: how it is. But well, you know, she's just a 533 00:28:30,045 --> 00:28:31,925 Speaker 2: bit different. She's not Australia. 534 00:28:32,045 --> 00:28:34,885 Speaker 1: There was a big gap between when you were fifteen 535 00:28:35,045 --> 00:28:37,565 Speaker 1: and the abuse started to take place. It went on 536 00:28:37,645 --> 00:28:41,965 Speaker 1: for about four years until you got married and left 537 00:28:41,965 --> 00:28:43,005 Speaker 1: the country. Is that right? 538 00:28:43,325 --> 00:28:46,525 Speaker 2: Yeah? It continued while I was engaged, you know, under 539 00:28:46,525 --> 00:28:49,005 Speaker 2: this guise, I'm teaching you what it is like to 540 00:28:49,045 --> 00:28:49,605 Speaker 2: be married. 541 00:28:50,245 --> 00:28:53,125 Speaker 1: At what point, if there was a point, did you 542 00:28:53,205 --> 00:28:56,485 Speaker 1: realize something was wrong, that this was not right. 543 00:28:56,965 --> 00:28:59,805 Speaker 2: I mean, I've been asked, you know, did I recognize 544 00:29:00,165 --> 00:29:03,365 Speaker 2: that it was sexual abuse? When I eventually learned about sex, 545 00:29:03,485 --> 00:29:05,925 Speaker 2: you know, a few weeks before my marriage, when I 546 00:29:05,965 --> 00:29:09,885 Speaker 2: was actually taught why what's called a color tea, a 547 00:29:09,885 --> 00:29:13,565 Speaker 2: bridal teacher about what sex was. But even in those lessons, 548 00:29:13,565 --> 00:29:16,605 Speaker 2: I was taught sex is to procreate, that is what 549 00:29:16,645 --> 00:29:19,285 Speaker 2: sex is. Is to have children, That's it. I wasn't 550 00:29:19,325 --> 00:29:21,925 Speaker 2: at all taught this idea of what sex was. It 551 00:29:21,965 --> 00:29:24,005 Speaker 2: was like, this is how you have a child. That 552 00:29:24,125 --> 00:29:26,845 Speaker 2: was how I was taught. So even then, in my 553 00:29:26,965 --> 00:29:29,005 Speaker 2: mind it wasn't this was sexual abuse. But I had 554 00:29:29,045 --> 00:29:32,205 Speaker 2: always had an idea that what was happening was wrong. 555 00:29:32,685 --> 00:29:37,365 Speaker 2: But I had so much worthlessness, I had such low 556 00:29:37,405 --> 00:29:40,525 Speaker 2: self esteem. I believed it must be me, it must 557 00:29:40,525 --> 00:29:43,445 Speaker 2: be me that was wrong. I mean, how could someone 558 00:29:43,565 --> 00:29:45,445 Speaker 2: like missus Lifer be wrong? 559 00:29:45,805 --> 00:29:48,685 Speaker 1: And you had no context, you had nothing to compare 560 00:29:49,445 --> 00:29:51,965 Speaker 1: that experience too, and no one to talk to about it. 561 00:29:52,325 --> 00:29:55,445 Speaker 2: Absolutely no one. And even if I would have had, 562 00:29:55,485 --> 00:29:57,605 Speaker 2: let's say, someone I could talk to about, not that 563 00:29:57,645 --> 00:30:00,205 Speaker 2: there was any safe adults in my life that I 564 00:30:00,245 --> 00:30:03,245 Speaker 2: felt I could have that conversation with. I didn't even 565 00:30:03,245 --> 00:30:06,405 Speaker 2: have the words. There was no words to have that conversation. 566 00:30:06,685 --> 00:30:09,205 Speaker 2: There was no way, you know, because I remember broach 567 00:30:09,605 --> 00:30:12,565 Speaker 2: kind of another teacher to have that conversation and say, 568 00:30:12,645 --> 00:30:15,045 Speaker 2: you know, can I talk to you about something? I 569 00:30:15,085 --> 00:30:18,485 Speaker 2: didn't know how to create those words that I needed 570 00:30:18,525 --> 00:30:21,205 Speaker 2: to use to tell her about what was happening. Again, 571 00:30:21,245 --> 00:30:23,525 Speaker 2: like my whole body was shrouded in secrecy. It was 572 00:30:23,565 --> 00:30:27,485 Speaker 2: impossible to actually voice what was going on or how 573 00:30:27,525 --> 00:30:29,445 Speaker 2: that was wrong or why I felt that was wrong. 574 00:30:29,645 --> 00:30:32,725 Speaker 1: That idea of modesty that you spoke about, that you 575 00:30:32,765 --> 00:30:35,245 Speaker 1: see in a lot of extreme religions, and this idea 576 00:30:35,285 --> 00:30:40,005 Speaker 1: of a woman having to be covered, is that grounded 577 00:30:40,045 --> 00:30:44,445 Speaker 1: in this idea that women's bodies are inherently tempting and 578 00:30:44,485 --> 00:30:49,885 Speaker 1: that their bodies are inherently sinful and men need to 579 00:30:49,925 --> 00:30:51,245 Speaker 1: be protected from them. 580 00:30:51,725 --> 00:30:54,565 Speaker 2: Oh very much, so very much so. But that wasn't 581 00:30:54,605 --> 00:30:56,285 Speaker 2: what I was taught as a young person. As a 582 00:30:56,325 --> 00:31:00,245 Speaker 2: young person, I was told the daughter of God, and 583 00:31:00,765 --> 00:31:03,525 Speaker 2: my modesty is something precious and it's something that's just 584 00:31:03,565 --> 00:31:06,765 Speaker 2: for myself. And then as I got older, it was 585 00:31:06,925 --> 00:31:09,285 Speaker 2: exactly that. It was. We don't want to distract them 586 00:31:09,405 --> 00:31:12,965 Speaker 2: men from learning Torah, and by you having any shape 587 00:31:12,965 --> 00:31:15,445 Speaker 2: to your body or being revealing at all, you will 588 00:31:15,485 --> 00:31:17,805 Speaker 2: be distracting to men. And of course I had no 589 00:31:17,885 --> 00:31:19,925 Speaker 2: idea of sex. It was just this idea that my 590 00:31:20,005 --> 00:31:22,325 Speaker 2: existence in some way was distracting to men. 591 00:31:22,645 --> 00:31:25,485 Speaker 1: When you got married, you mentioned the color teacher. Tell 592 00:31:25,485 --> 00:31:27,805 Speaker 1: me about that. What happens, because obviously if there's no 593 00:31:28,045 --> 00:31:31,805 Speaker 1: sex education, it sounds like this is how women or 594 00:31:31,845 --> 00:31:35,685 Speaker 1: girls are prepared for sex when they get married. Tell 595 00:31:35,725 --> 00:31:37,045 Speaker 1: me what that involves. 596 00:31:37,405 --> 00:31:40,565 Speaker 2: I remember one of my friends got married maybe six 597 00:31:40,605 --> 00:31:42,965 Speaker 2: months before me, and she had gone through the process 598 00:31:43,005 --> 00:31:45,525 Speaker 2: of going to a color you know, a bridal teacher, 599 00:31:46,285 --> 00:31:49,005 Speaker 2: and I remember asking her and being so curious, you 600 00:31:49,045 --> 00:31:50,685 Speaker 2: know what did you learn? Of course, she couldn't tell 601 00:31:50,725 --> 00:31:53,325 Speaker 2: me because you know, until I was ready, I wasn't 602 00:31:53,365 --> 00:31:56,085 Speaker 2: allowed to know, so we weren't allowed to have these discussions. 603 00:31:56,245 --> 00:31:59,205 Speaker 2: We both knew that. I remember going to the color 604 00:31:59,245 --> 00:32:02,925 Speaker 2: teacher and there's a huge amount of rules around sex. 605 00:32:02,965 --> 00:32:05,365 Speaker 2: There's a huge amount of rules about how a woman 606 00:32:05,445 --> 00:32:09,605 Speaker 2: needs to prepare herself, about how she's unclean during the 607 00:32:09,645 --> 00:32:11,525 Speaker 2: time that she has her period, and then the seven 608 00:32:11,605 --> 00:32:14,285 Speaker 2: days afterwards, and how she has to check herself for 609 00:32:14,325 --> 00:32:18,245 Speaker 2: seven days and get you know, these clean cloths that 610 00:32:18,325 --> 00:32:21,005 Speaker 2: she checks herself with twice a day. When she's had 611 00:32:21,045 --> 00:32:24,365 Speaker 2: seven days clean, she goes for a ritual bath. And 612 00:32:24,565 --> 00:32:26,845 Speaker 2: there's a huge amount of rules about what you're allowed 613 00:32:26,845 --> 00:32:28,725 Speaker 2: to do when you're unclean with your husband, which is 614 00:32:28,765 --> 00:32:31,565 Speaker 2: pretty much nothing. He's like any other man on the street. 615 00:32:31,605 --> 00:32:33,485 Speaker 2: You're not allowed touch him, you're not asleep with him, 616 00:32:33,485 --> 00:32:35,405 Speaker 2: you're not be in the same bed. You're not even 617 00:32:35,405 --> 00:32:38,645 Speaker 2: allowed to pass something to each other because your fingers 618 00:32:38,725 --> 00:32:40,285 Speaker 2: might accidentally. 619 00:32:39,685 --> 00:32:42,125 Speaker 1: Touch and make him unclean exactly. 620 00:32:42,565 --> 00:32:45,845 Speaker 2: And then there's this idea of when you have gone 621 00:32:46,005 --> 00:32:49,125 Speaker 2: to the micfather ritual bath, you know you're supposed to 622 00:32:49,165 --> 00:32:51,365 Speaker 2: be with your husband, that's a very holy night. There's 623 00:32:51,405 --> 00:32:53,965 Speaker 2: ideas of when you should have sex. You know, Friday 624 00:32:54,045 --> 00:32:56,525 Speaker 2: night is holy, so have sex on Friday night, and 625 00:32:56,565 --> 00:32:58,565 Speaker 2: ideally should have a one other night a week. That's 626 00:32:58,565 --> 00:33:00,885 Speaker 2: what I was told, so I was told Tuesday nights 627 00:33:00,885 --> 00:33:02,885 Speaker 2: and Friday nights are a good idea of when to 628 00:33:02,925 --> 00:33:06,285 Speaker 2: have sex, and you say a prayer before you have 629 00:33:06,405 --> 00:33:10,285 Speaker 2: sex that any child that's conceived through this apur is 630 00:33:10,445 --> 00:33:13,005 Speaker 2: conceived in a holy way and not through lust. And 631 00:33:13,045 --> 00:33:15,165 Speaker 2: so you know, my husband and I would both stay 632 00:33:15,205 --> 00:33:18,285 Speaker 2: this prayer before anytime we were intimate. And so I 633 00:33:18,325 --> 00:33:20,885 Speaker 2: had to learn all those rules as a young just 634 00:33:20,925 --> 00:33:23,365 Speaker 2: about to be a married bride about what I was 635 00:33:23,405 --> 00:33:26,285 Speaker 2: supposed to do, because it was my responsibility to uphold 636 00:33:26,405 --> 00:33:29,205 Speaker 2: those and make sure that I didn't have, you know, 637 00:33:29,325 --> 00:33:32,485 Speaker 2: a child through any other means, because that child then, 638 00:33:32,765 --> 00:33:33,845 Speaker 2: you know, would be sinful. 639 00:33:34,205 --> 00:33:35,205 Speaker 1: That's a lot of pressure. 640 00:33:35,605 --> 00:33:38,805 Speaker 2: I was so nervous. I remember going for that ritual 641 00:33:38,845 --> 00:33:42,045 Speaker 2: bath and just being so relieved to see this laminated 642 00:33:42,405 --> 00:33:45,285 Speaker 2: booklet telling me exactly what I needed to do, because 643 00:33:45,405 --> 00:33:47,645 Speaker 2: having all of that in my memory and thinking I'm 644 00:33:47,685 --> 00:33:51,485 Speaker 2: going to be bathing naked and there'll be something in 645 00:33:51,525 --> 00:33:55,325 Speaker 2: between me and this holy water and I won't be 646 00:33:55,405 --> 00:33:58,885 Speaker 2: clean on my wedding night was utterly terrifying. 647 00:33:58,365 --> 00:34:01,085 Speaker 1: To me, because it's about making sure there's nothing between 648 00:34:01,125 --> 00:34:03,645 Speaker 1: your teeth, nothing underneath your nails, that there's not like 649 00:34:03,685 --> 00:34:06,565 Speaker 1: a speck of lint in your belly button. It has 650 00:34:06,645 --> 00:34:10,085 Speaker 1: to be nothing. Everything has to be removed, moved first 651 00:34:11,405 --> 00:34:15,045 Speaker 1: on your wedding night. Without one to intrude on too 652 00:34:15,085 --> 00:34:19,885 Speaker 1: many details, what was that experience like for you and 653 00:34:19,925 --> 00:34:20,485 Speaker 1: your husband? 654 00:34:21,045 --> 00:34:25,205 Speaker 2: We were both extremely nervous. Again, this was not someone 655 00:34:25,205 --> 00:34:27,605 Speaker 2: I had ever touched. You know, this was the first 656 00:34:27,605 --> 00:34:30,485 Speaker 2: time that we were unsupervised in a room together. I mean, 657 00:34:30,525 --> 00:34:32,645 Speaker 2: we had been earlier that day for the first time. 658 00:34:33,325 --> 00:34:36,085 Speaker 2: But suddenly we're in this house, which happened to be 659 00:34:36,285 --> 00:34:40,485 Speaker 2: Malkealifa's house, and she was overseas at the time, and 660 00:34:40,525 --> 00:34:42,605 Speaker 2: I'm in the same room that she had abused me. 661 00:34:43,205 --> 00:34:44,845 Speaker 2: That I'm supposed to be with my husband for the 662 00:34:44,845 --> 00:34:48,365 Speaker 2: first time, and in my mind, I've completely separated that 663 00:34:48,565 --> 00:34:51,005 Speaker 2: from you know, what was going on between me and 664 00:34:51,045 --> 00:34:53,205 Speaker 2: my husband. It was like I had completely I had 665 00:34:53,205 --> 00:34:57,165 Speaker 2: this disassociative barrier between what had gone on with Malkalifa 666 00:34:57,285 --> 00:34:59,085 Speaker 2: and now I was married. I was a different person. 667 00:34:59,285 --> 00:35:01,765 Speaker 2: That's how it worked, That's how my survival system worked. 668 00:35:02,205 --> 00:35:04,045 Speaker 2: So I'm asery. I'm not thinking about that at all. 669 00:35:04,485 --> 00:35:06,085 Speaker 2: I'm just thinking, you know, I'm about to be with 670 00:35:06,165 --> 00:35:09,245 Speaker 2: my husband and he's helping me, you know, take off 671 00:35:09,565 --> 00:35:12,325 Speaker 2: my wig that I was wearing, and my dress that 672 00:35:12,405 --> 00:35:15,085 Speaker 2: had seventy buttons, you know, all the way down my back, 673 00:35:15,165 --> 00:35:17,765 Speaker 2: and a hundred bobby pins to keep my week in 674 00:35:17,805 --> 00:35:20,325 Speaker 2: place while I was dancing. So he helped me with 675 00:35:20,365 --> 00:35:22,525 Speaker 2: all of that, and then I can feel his nerves 676 00:35:22,565 --> 00:35:26,325 Speaker 2: and I'm nervous, and I just remember this intense amount 677 00:35:26,365 --> 00:35:28,645 Speaker 2: of pain and him telling me, oh, well, the rabbit 678 00:35:28,725 --> 00:35:31,445 Speaker 2: just said I should get it over quickly. That was 679 00:35:31,485 --> 00:35:33,725 Speaker 2: my experience of my wedding night, and me thinking, oh, 680 00:35:33,845 --> 00:35:36,205 Speaker 2: God definitely has to give me children now because I 681 00:35:36,245 --> 00:35:39,445 Speaker 2: survived that pain, and then feeling so relieved that it 682 00:35:39,485 --> 00:35:41,325 Speaker 2: was over, that we had done what I was supposed 683 00:35:41,365 --> 00:35:43,685 Speaker 2: to do. And then the rest of the night was 684 00:35:43,725 --> 00:35:45,325 Speaker 2: such a you know, it was the first time we 685 00:35:45,325 --> 00:35:48,605 Speaker 2: could really have a proper conversation unsupervised. So we just 686 00:35:48,645 --> 00:35:50,445 Speaker 2: sat there talking for the rest of the night until 687 00:35:50,445 --> 00:35:53,085 Speaker 2: four or five am, just getting to know each other. 688 00:35:53,285 --> 00:35:55,485 Speaker 2: Who was this person I had shared a bed with. 689 00:35:55,645 --> 00:35:58,485 Speaker 2: And of course because I had led, I was impure 690 00:35:58,525 --> 00:36:00,605 Speaker 2: then and I was unclean, and so we had to 691 00:36:00,685 --> 00:36:02,965 Speaker 2: quickly separate and I couldn't be together, you know, I 692 00:36:03,005 --> 00:36:06,365 Speaker 2: couldn't touch him for the next two weeks until I 693 00:36:06,445 --> 00:36:09,725 Speaker 2: was clean again. Was he a nice guy during our marriage? 694 00:36:09,765 --> 00:36:13,605 Speaker 2: He was, you know, he was a supportive person who 695 00:36:13,805 --> 00:36:17,125 Speaker 2: didn't understand me, didn't understand the traumles bringing into our 696 00:36:17,165 --> 00:36:20,205 Speaker 2: marriage and how that affected me, but did his best 697 00:36:20,365 --> 00:36:22,765 Speaker 2: to support me in the way that he knew how to. 698 00:36:23,725 --> 00:36:26,445 Speaker 1: More of my conversation with Darsie about how much her 699 00:36:26,445 --> 00:36:29,365 Speaker 1: life changed when she left Australia and had access to 700 00:36:29,405 --> 00:36:32,725 Speaker 1: the Internet for the first time and what made her 701 00:36:32,765 --> 00:36:36,725 Speaker 1: realize it was finally time to tell someone about Marco Lafer. 702 00:36:41,525 --> 00:36:44,325 Speaker 1: So you and your husband moved to Israel after living 703 00:36:44,365 --> 00:36:48,605 Speaker 1: your whole life in this insular at us community in Melbourne. 704 00:36:48,605 --> 00:36:50,125 Speaker 1: That must have been so jarry. 705 00:36:50,525 --> 00:36:52,205 Speaker 2: So I hadn't been on a plane before because I 706 00:36:52,205 --> 00:36:53,925 Speaker 2: had gone to New York with my mother when I 707 00:36:53,965 --> 00:36:57,125 Speaker 2: was eleven to help look after my younger cousins. We 708 00:36:57,365 --> 00:36:59,885 Speaker 2: very much kept to ourselves, Shu and I. We had this, 709 00:37:00,045 --> 00:37:01,885 Speaker 2: you know, kind of little pocket of where we just 710 00:37:01,965 --> 00:37:04,805 Speaker 2: ignored everyone else on the plane. I remember him kind 711 00:37:04,845 --> 00:37:07,965 Speaker 2: of standing over his prayer book and in the middle 712 00:37:07,965 --> 00:37:11,485 Speaker 2: of the plane and pray, and just this idea that 713 00:37:11,845 --> 00:37:14,885 Speaker 2: we just ignored everyone outside. And really, when I went 714 00:37:14,965 --> 00:37:17,165 Speaker 2: into Israel and lived in a community, I lived in 715 00:37:17,525 --> 00:37:20,645 Speaker 2: a very similar religious community to a dust so in 716 00:37:20,645 --> 00:37:23,005 Speaker 2: some ways I didn't really have that exposure to the 717 00:37:23,045 --> 00:37:25,405 Speaker 2: secular world. I saw it, and I saw it as 718 00:37:25,565 --> 00:37:28,725 Speaker 2: very very separate to me, So it wasn't something that 719 00:37:29,285 --> 00:37:31,365 Speaker 2: really rocked my world at all at the time. 720 00:37:31,765 --> 00:37:33,325 Speaker 1: So did you have a computer in the house? 721 00:37:33,725 --> 00:37:36,365 Speaker 2: So I needed to find an English speaking job, which 722 00:37:36,365 --> 00:37:39,285 Speaker 2: were usually American jobs where they had kind of sent 723 00:37:39,405 --> 00:37:41,765 Speaker 2: jobs where they could pay people cheap. In Israel, we 724 00:37:41,845 --> 00:37:44,965 Speaker 2: bought a computer and we got internet, and I remember 725 00:37:44,965 --> 00:37:47,565 Speaker 2: being very excited. This was something I had no access to. 726 00:37:47,725 --> 00:37:49,525 Speaker 2: Somehow I can look for a job, and of course 727 00:37:50,085 --> 00:37:52,045 Speaker 2: I could look at other things. And I remember opening 728 00:37:52,045 --> 00:37:54,525 Speaker 2: the computer and thinking I could look up anything in 729 00:37:54,565 --> 00:37:57,685 Speaker 2: the world and not even knowing where to start, Like 730 00:37:57,765 --> 00:38:00,085 Speaker 2: how do I even do that? And what do I do? 731 00:38:00,165 --> 00:38:02,685 Speaker 2: And what do I look up? The endless choices were 732 00:38:02,725 --> 00:38:03,645 Speaker 2: so overwhelming. 733 00:38:04,285 --> 00:38:05,805 Speaker 1: What did you look up? What were some of the 734 00:38:05,845 --> 00:38:06,645 Speaker 1: things you looked up? 735 00:38:06,765 --> 00:38:10,845 Speaker 2: I actually don't remember. I remember finding my way to 736 00:38:11,085 --> 00:38:14,005 Speaker 2: some free website to watch some shows, and of course, 737 00:38:14,525 --> 00:38:17,365 Speaker 2: like I remember watching The Sweet Life of Zack and Cody, 738 00:38:17,365 --> 00:38:20,845 Speaker 2: which was like, you know, but that was something even 739 00:38:20,885 --> 00:38:23,045 Speaker 2: as an adult, that was something that was so interesting 740 00:38:23,045 --> 00:38:25,605 Speaker 2: to me because I had no exposure to TV and 741 00:38:26,205 --> 00:38:29,085 Speaker 2: you know, growing up or anything like that. This idea 742 00:38:29,125 --> 00:38:31,805 Speaker 2: of these two young boys, I think living in a hotel. 743 00:38:32,125 --> 00:38:34,405 Speaker 2: It taught me so much. It taught me so much 744 00:38:34,445 --> 00:38:38,285 Speaker 2: about the world outside, and that was what really captivated 745 00:38:38,285 --> 00:38:38,925 Speaker 2: my interest. 746 00:38:39,445 --> 00:38:42,205 Speaker 1: It's really interesting that you started by watching kids shows 747 00:38:42,245 --> 00:38:45,645 Speaker 1: because you wrote that on your wedding night you had 748 00:38:45,725 --> 00:38:49,205 Speaker 1: the same knowledge of sex as maybe a five year 749 00:38:49,245 --> 00:38:52,605 Speaker 1: old might in terms of the basics of it all, 750 00:38:52,685 --> 00:38:56,085 Speaker 1: and when the abuse was happening, you knew nothing about sex. 751 00:38:56,685 --> 00:39:00,725 Speaker 1: It's almost like your introduction to the outside world needed 752 00:39:00,725 --> 00:39:02,325 Speaker 1: to be through the eyes of a child as well, 753 00:39:02,365 --> 00:39:04,725 Speaker 1: because you were learning it all and. 754 00:39:04,645 --> 00:39:07,085 Speaker 2: It was you know, I don't even remember trying to 755 00:39:07,125 --> 00:39:09,325 Speaker 2: watch any other show that was like an adult show. 756 00:39:09,405 --> 00:39:11,365 Speaker 2: It was like too foreign to me, it was too 757 00:39:11,485 --> 00:39:13,845 Speaker 2: out there. I didn't understand half of what you know, 758 00:39:13,925 --> 00:39:16,325 Speaker 2: people were saying, so seeing it through the eyes of 759 00:39:16,325 --> 00:39:18,765 Speaker 2: a child was something that was much easier to understand. 760 00:39:19,085 --> 00:39:21,405 Speaker 1: Who is the first person that you told about what 761 00:39:21,445 --> 00:39:23,045 Speaker 1: malcol Laifer had done to you. 762 00:39:23,645 --> 00:39:26,325 Speaker 2: It was a therapist in Israel, and I'd been having 763 00:39:26,445 --> 00:39:29,445 Speaker 2: quite a bit of difficulties in my marriage, and I 764 00:39:29,485 --> 00:39:31,845 Speaker 2: went to a therapist and said, you know, these are 765 00:39:31,885 --> 00:39:34,085 Speaker 2: the thoughts i'm having. These are the websites I'm being 766 00:39:34,125 --> 00:39:37,485 Speaker 2: pulled into because I had, you know, suddenly had access 767 00:39:37,565 --> 00:39:41,085 Speaker 2: to the Internet in Israel, and I was drawn to 768 00:39:41,125 --> 00:39:43,325 Speaker 2: these sites to understand what I was thinking and why 769 00:39:43,365 --> 00:39:46,245 Speaker 2: I was thinking that. And I felt a tremendous amount 770 00:39:46,285 --> 00:39:48,165 Speaker 2: of guilt about the fact that I was looking these 771 00:39:48,165 --> 00:39:49,925 Speaker 2: things up online because I was supposed to be searching 772 00:39:49,965 --> 00:39:51,405 Speaker 2: for a job. I wasn't supposed to be on these 773 00:39:51,405 --> 00:39:54,245 Speaker 2: sexual websites. So I had so much guilt, and I 774 00:39:54,285 --> 00:39:56,925 Speaker 2: believe that God was punishing me by making me infertile, 775 00:39:57,005 --> 00:39:58,765 Speaker 2: and that's why I couldn't have a baby, because I 776 00:39:58,805 --> 00:40:00,965 Speaker 2: was drawn to these websites. So I went to the 777 00:40:00,965 --> 00:40:03,005 Speaker 2: therapist with this and said, look, these are the things 778 00:40:03,085 --> 00:40:05,405 Speaker 2: i'm looking up, these are the things I'm drawn to, 779 00:40:05,445 --> 00:40:09,205 Speaker 2: and I don't understand why. And we had maybe t 780 00:40:09,325 --> 00:40:13,285 Speaker 2: and also sessions where we discussed this, and I remember 781 00:40:13,325 --> 00:40:15,285 Speaker 2: bringing her some pictures of me and my husband and 782 00:40:15,285 --> 00:40:17,125 Speaker 2: her saying, look, you want to make your marriage work. 783 00:40:17,165 --> 00:40:19,245 Speaker 2: And I'm me thinking she doesn't understand me at all. 784 00:40:19,245 --> 00:40:21,085 Speaker 2: It's not that I don't want to make my marriage work. 785 00:40:21,125 --> 00:40:25,045 Speaker 2: I feel terribly guilty about this. And at some point 786 00:40:25,125 --> 00:40:28,165 Speaker 2: she asked me, were you abused? And by that time 787 00:40:28,205 --> 00:40:30,685 Speaker 2: I had a bit more of an understanding, not much, 788 00:40:30,885 --> 00:40:32,685 Speaker 2: but a bit more of an understanding that what had 789 00:40:32,725 --> 00:40:36,245 Speaker 2: happened was wrong with mal Koalaifer. And I said to her, yes, 790 00:40:36,285 --> 00:40:38,885 Speaker 2: by someone at school. And she said to me, how 791 00:40:38,925 --> 00:40:40,965 Speaker 2: did a man have access to you at school? Because 792 00:40:40,965 --> 00:40:43,005 Speaker 2: a man didn't have access to us at school. If 793 00:40:43,045 --> 00:40:45,245 Speaker 2: a rabbi came to speak to us, they sat behind 794 00:40:45,245 --> 00:40:47,125 Speaker 2: a wall so we couldn't see him and he couldn't 795 00:40:47,125 --> 00:40:47,645 Speaker 2: see us. 796 00:40:48,085 --> 00:40:48,525 Speaker 1: Wow. 797 00:40:48,685 --> 00:40:52,125 Speaker 2: She knew that the gender separation was so so severe 798 00:40:52,565 --> 00:40:54,205 Speaker 2: that for a man to have access to me it 799 00:40:54,365 --> 00:40:58,885 Speaker 2: was almost impossible without somebody knowing about it. And I 800 00:40:58,925 --> 00:41:01,405 Speaker 2: said to her, it wasn't a man. I remember running 801 00:41:01,445 --> 00:41:05,205 Speaker 2: out of her house where she had her offers and saying, 802 00:41:05,405 --> 00:41:07,645 Speaker 2: you know, I'm never coming back. And I didn't go 803 00:41:07,765 --> 00:41:10,205 Speaker 2: back for a while until she rang and rang and 804 00:41:10,285 --> 00:41:13,725 Speaker 2: rang me again. And I went to her house full 805 00:41:13,765 --> 00:41:16,125 Speaker 2: of apprehension, and I said to her I can't tell 806 00:41:16,165 --> 00:41:18,525 Speaker 2: you who it is. And you know, she was asking 807 00:41:18,525 --> 00:41:20,205 Speaker 2: me the questions of all the different teachers in the 808 00:41:20,245 --> 00:41:22,365 Speaker 2: school because she was aware of how the school worked 809 00:41:22,365 --> 00:41:24,885 Speaker 2: and she had lived in Australia so she knew the school. 810 00:41:25,325 --> 00:41:27,005 Speaker 2: And when I couldn't tell her, she said, oh, well, 811 00:41:27,005 --> 00:41:29,845 Speaker 2: I'm going to have to tell missus Lafer, and I 812 00:41:29,885 --> 00:41:32,725 Speaker 2: remember that utter horror and fear. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, 813 00:41:32,765 --> 00:41:35,165 Speaker 2: you can't do that, and she was insisting, no, if 814 00:41:35,165 --> 00:41:36,845 Speaker 2: there's someone in the school and you can't tell me 815 00:41:36,845 --> 00:41:39,565 Speaker 2: who it is, I have to tell her, until I 816 00:41:39,685 --> 00:41:44,125 Speaker 2: eventually said to her it was missus Lafer and that 817 00:41:44,365 --> 00:41:47,965 Speaker 2: look of just utter shock and disbelief because she too 818 00:41:48,045 --> 00:41:50,965 Speaker 2: respected Lifa, she too respected and looked up to her, 819 00:41:51,845 --> 00:41:54,805 Speaker 2: and she had worked with her, and me trying to 820 00:41:54,845 --> 00:41:57,485 Speaker 2: convince her you know, yes, it did happen, and this 821 00:41:57,525 --> 00:41:59,725 Speaker 2: is how it happened. And I didn't share many details 822 00:41:59,725 --> 00:42:01,325 Speaker 2: with her at the time. It was just more to 823 00:42:01,405 --> 00:42:04,125 Speaker 2: convince her. I don't really remember what I said then, 824 00:42:04,525 --> 00:42:07,085 Speaker 2: but I remember telling her, you know, I think I'll 825 00:42:07,125 --> 00:42:10,005 Speaker 2: witnessed something with my sister Nicole. I'm not sure we've 826 00:42:10,005 --> 00:42:13,125 Speaker 2: never spoken about it, but call up Nicole and you know, 827 00:42:13,165 --> 00:42:14,965 Speaker 2: speak to her and you'll see that what I'm saying 828 00:42:15,045 --> 00:42:18,325 Speaker 2: is true. And then until Nicole called me, I think 829 00:42:18,325 --> 00:42:21,845 Speaker 2: it was later that night, I didn't know if because 830 00:42:21,885 --> 00:42:24,005 Speaker 2: I'd never spoke about it with Nicole, I didn't actually 831 00:42:24,005 --> 00:42:26,205 Speaker 2: know if what Nicole was going to say it was 832 00:42:26,205 --> 00:42:29,285 Speaker 2: going to confirm what I said or deny what I said. 833 00:42:29,285 --> 00:42:32,725 Speaker 2: I had no idea, And that conversation with Nicole was more, 834 00:42:32,965 --> 00:42:35,245 Speaker 2: you know, what have you done? What's going to happen now? 835 00:42:36,005 --> 00:42:37,285 Speaker 2: I mean, we're both terrified. 836 00:42:38,765 --> 00:42:41,165 Speaker 1: Well, it's hard to overstate the bravery that it took 837 00:42:41,245 --> 00:42:45,445 Speaker 1: Dussie to confide in someone about what her abuser had done, 838 00:42:45,925 --> 00:42:49,645 Speaker 1: especially when you consider how much control and influence the 839 00:42:49,685 --> 00:42:53,805 Speaker 1: ADAS community still had over Darcy at this time. And 840 00:42:53,845 --> 00:42:55,285 Speaker 1: I would love to be able to tell you that 841 00:42:55,325 --> 00:42:58,645 Speaker 1: as soon as Dussie spoke out, life was brought to justice, 842 00:42:58,965 --> 00:43:02,565 Speaker 1: But unfortunately that is not what happened. She tipped the 843 00:43:02,565 --> 00:43:05,045 Speaker 1: first domino, and it took so much courage to do that, 844 00:43:05,125 --> 00:43:08,085 Speaker 1: but there were many more to fall before she would 845 00:43:08,125 --> 00:43:13,005 Speaker 1: get what she did, recognition and healing and justice. In 846 00:43:13,085 --> 00:43:17,365 Speaker 1: Part two of my conversation with Darcy, we discuss what happened. Next, 847 00:43:17,645 --> 00:43:20,085 Speaker 1: we hear what finally convinced her to break away from 848 00:43:20,125 --> 00:43:23,645 Speaker 1: the community which had protected her abuser instead of her. 849 00:43:23,765 --> 00:43:26,205 Speaker 1: And you'll hear what Darcy thinks about life for now 850 00:43:26,845 --> 00:43:29,325 Speaker 1: and what's next for her in her life now that 851 00:43:29,445 --> 00:43:33,365 Speaker 1: life is in prison. And you'll also hear the moment 852 00:43:33,525 --> 00:43:37,085 Speaker 1: where I broke down, which is not something that happens 853 00:43:37,085 --> 00:43:39,805 Speaker 1: to me often, and it's not for the reason that 854 00:43:39,845 --> 00:43:42,485 Speaker 1: you would think. To hear the rest of our conversation, 855 00:43:42,725 --> 00:43:44,605 Speaker 1: you have to be a Mumma mea subscriber, and I 856 00:43:44,605 --> 00:43:47,285 Speaker 1: would so love it if you were, because when you do, 857 00:43:47,605 --> 00:43:50,405 Speaker 1: not only do you get exclusive No Filter episodes and 858 00:43:50,445 --> 00:43:53,325 Speaker 1: part twos of our conversations here, but you also get 859 00:43:53,365 --> 00:43:55,565 Speaker 1: to hear Mamma Mia out loud, you get the Move 860 00:43:55,605 --> 00:43:59,085 Speaker 1: Fitness app and all our other podcasts. This episode of 861 00:43:59,125 --> 00:44:01,965 Speaker 1: No Filter was produced by Naima Brown with sound production 862 00:44:02,245 --> 00:44:05,725 Speaker 1: by Leah Porgies. Special thanks to Hershared Australia for use 863 00:44:05,765 --> 00:44:08,285 Speaker 1: of the audio clips of Dussi's book In Bad Faith, 864 00:44:08,525 --> 00:44:10,485 Speaker 1: and we'll put a link to that in our show notes. 865 00:44:11,045 --> 00:44:14,685 Speaker 1: I know that we talked about some really difficult things 866 00:44:14,765 --> 00:44:18,285 Speaker 1: in this episode, so we put some links for you 867 00:44:18,445 --> 00:44:21,885 Speaker 1: that Darcy provided us and other more general links in 868 00:44:21,925 --> 00:44:24,805 Speaker 1: the show notes, So please reach out. If you're in 869 00:44:24,845 --> 00:44:27,165 Speaker 1: a hard to reach community and you're listening to this 870 00:44:27,485 --> 00:44:29,685 Speaker 1: and you want to know what to do because you're 871 00:44:29,725 --> 00:44:33,125 Speaker 1: in a situation like Darcy described, we'll have links for 872 00:44:33,205 --> 00:44:37,445 Speaker 1: you there and also just to Lifeline and other support organizations.