WEBVTT - David Gillespie Knows How to Spot a Psychopath [re-release] 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:15.005 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges 0:00:15.045 --> 0:00:17.685 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.765 --> 0:00:21.285 is recorded on. I'm Miya Friedman and the team Atmuma 0:00:21.325 --> 0:00:25.045 Mea are bringing you over one hundred hours of the 0:00:25.245 --> 0:00:28.685 very best of the podcasts that we've made from across 0:00:29.125 --> 0:00:31.925 our podcast network. Do you know that we have something 0:00:32.005 --> 0:00:35.525 like fifty six different podcasts here at Mamma Mia. And 0:00:35.845 --> 0:00:39.605 if you follow this one, we have selected some others 0:00:39.725 --> 0:00:42.085 that you might like to listen to as well, and 0:00:42.125 --> 0:00:45.005 we've also brought back some of our most popular and 0:00:45.445 --> 0:00:49.205 most riveting stories from No Filter, which is what you're 0:00:49.205 --> 0:00:51.965 going to hear today. We first brought you this conversation 0:00:52.005 --> 0:00:54.965 with David Gillespie about how to spot a psychopath all 0:00:55.005 --> 0:00:57.805 the way back in twenty seventeen. But the thing about 0:00:57.845 --> 0:01:02.365 psychopaths is that they don't change, and all the warning 0:01:02.405 --> 0:01:07.005 signs of them are still the same, and they're still around. 0:01:07.325 --> 0:01:10.405 We're not talking about serial killer psycho paths. This is 0:01:10.445 --> 0:01:13.845 about the psychopaths that walk among us in our families, 0:01:14.165 --> 0:01:18.365 in our homes, in our workplaces, maybe in our friendship groups, 0:01:18.885 --> 0:01:22.205 maybe on our dating apps. In fact, definitely also on 0:01:22.205 --> 0:01:26.565 our dating apps. David is a phenomenal author. He's written 0:01:26.565 --> 0:01:29.965 a lot of books on brains and navigating toxic people 0:01:30.085 --> 0:01:33.245 and about sugar, all different kinds of things, but this 0:01:33.285 --> 0:01:37.045 one on psychopaths, and this conversation that we had is 0:01:37.085 --> 0:01:40.245 among the most popular No filters that I've ever done. 0:01:40.365 --> 0:01:42.645 This episode might make you see the people around you 0:01:42.685 --> 0:01:49.405 a little differently. Don't say we didn't mourn you. Enjoy. Hi. 0:01:49.565 --> 0:01:53.365 I'm mea Friedman and welcome to No Filter. This is 0:01:53.405 --> 0:01:55.965 a podcast so you can't see my face when I'm 0:01:55.965 --> 0:01:59.085 interviewing people, and that's part of the reason I love podcasts. 0:01:59.125 --> 0:02:01.965 I love listening to them, I love making them because 0:02:02.005 --> 0:02:06.205 there are no visuals to distract you. But I really, 0:02:06.285 --> 0:02:09.765 really wish you could have seen my face when I 0:02:09.805 --> 0:02:15.645 interviewed David Gillespie for this episode about psychopaths. Now, don't panic. 0:02:15.725 --> 0:02:18.685 We're not talking about the serial killer kind of psychopaths, 0:02:18.725 --> 0:02:22.485 not Ivan Malaut and Martin Bryant and the Ted Bundy ones. 0:02:23.005 --> 0:02:28.805 Because most psychopaths are not killers. Most psychopaths aren't even violent. 0:02:29.565 --> 0:02:34.765 Their bosses and managers and parents and grandparents, and you 0:02:34.765 --> 0:02:38.205 can find them in loads of different professions. Although some 0:02:38.565 --> 0:02:40.525 more than others, and we'll get to that in a minute. 0:02:40.885 --> 0:02:44.365 David Gillespie has written a book called Taming Toxic People, 0:02:44.765 --> 0:02:49.365 The Science of Identifying and Dealing with Psychopaths, and the 0:02:49.405 --> 0:02:52.445 book is about all the psychopaths that walk amongst us, 0:02:52.485 --> 0:02:56.765 at work, at home, and even inside our own families. 0:02:57.645 --> 0:03:01.405 In his book and in this interview, David explains exactly 0:03:01.445 --> 0:03:05.085 how to identify a psychopath. And as he listed the signs, 0:03:05.485 --> 0:03:08.925 my eyes widened so much they nearly fell out of 0:03:08.965 --> 0:03:12.885 my head. The all, my god, moments of recognition just 0:03:13.045 --> 0:03:17.005 kept coming during this conversation, as I began to realize 0:03:17.165 --> 0:03:20.125 that I have indeed worked with several psychopaths during the 0:03:20.165 --> 0:03:24.005 twenty five years I've been in the workforce. I've worked 0:03:24.005 --> 0:03:28.125 for them, and I've worked alongside them. I've even accidentally 0:03:28.525 --> 0:03:31.845 employed a couple, and I've certainly dated one or two. 0:03:32.405 --> 0:03:35.445 And it's almost certain that you have too. David says 0:03:35.645 --> 0:03:39.765 he has never ever spoken to someone about psychopaths without 0:03:39.765 --> 0:03:43.365 them having one of those aha moments, as a whole 0:03:43.365 --> 0:03:47.125 bunch of confusing things about a certain person in your life, 0:03:47.205 --> 0:03:51.485 or your world or your past suddenly made sense. This 0:03:51.605 --> 0:03:55.525 is honestly the most fascinating, mind blowing interview I've done, 0:03:55.765 --> 0:04:01.125 and I cannot stop thinking about it. Here's David Gillespie. 0:04:01.925 --> 0:04:05.565 David Gillespie, welcome, pleasure to be here. I feel like 0:04:05.925 --> 0:04:07.645 you could be looking at me and wondering if I 0:04:07.685 --> 0:04:09.845 am a psychopath? Is that what you do? Now? Do 0:04:09.925 --> 0:04:14.085 you sort of analyze people? No? 0:04:14.205 --> 0:04:16.965 Not really. I get the feeling that that will be 0:04:16.965 --> 0:04:21.445 someone's reaction to reading the book, But as a general rule, 0:04:21.485 --> 0:04:25.285 I don't do it myself. Unless it's something that I 0:04:25.485 --> 0:04:27.885 or a person I'm contemplating getting into some sort of 0:04:27.885 --> 0:04:32.685 a financial or other close relationship with, then it's really 0:04:32.685 --> 0:04:34.925 important to know. But the rest of the time it 0:04:34.965 --> 0:04:41.965 doesn't really matter. Why write this book because I experienced 0:04:43.725 --> 0:04:47.805 working for and with psychopaths on a fairly frequent basis. 0:04:47.965 --> 0:04:50.125 And can you tell me what industry? 0:04:50.405 --> 0:04:54.085 Roughly in just about every industry I've ever been involved in, so, 0:04:54.125 --> 0:04:56.805 I've been involved in tech, I've been involved in law, 0:04:57.525 --> 0:05:02.605 I've been involved in government departments, startups, all kinds of things. 0:05:03.085 --> 0:05:05.485 It's unusual, to, in fact, find a place where you 0:05:05.525 --> 0:05:08.605 don't encounter them in fairly significant numbers, usually at the 0:05:08.605 --> 0:05:15.005 top of the organized and when I first encountered them, 0:05:15.125 --> 0:05:23.365 I wasn't sure what I was dealing with. They seemed unpredictable, confusing, disruptive, destructive, 0:05:24.325 --> 0:05:26.645 and they didn't seem to be any real pattern to 0:05:26.685 --> 0:05:30.925 their behavior, and so I needed to put some labels 0:05:30.965 --> 0:05:34.165 on stuff. So I went researching trying to find things. 0:05:34.645 --> 0:05:37.765 Eventually came to the conclusion that there was this personality 0:05:37.805 --> 0:05:39.325 type and I probably didn't put a label on it 0:05:39.365 --> 0:05:43.165 at the time, but this anty social or psychopathic or sociopathic. 0:05:43.365 --> 0:05:46.805 Toxic is a word obviously in the title of your book, 0:05:46.845 --> 0:05:51.205 But that's a word that has been used more commonly 0:05:51.205 --> 0:05:53.165 in the last few years. Hasn't it to just explain 0:05:53.205 --> 0:05:58.965 that person at work whose behavior is confounding and excruciating, and. 0:05:59.325 --> 0:06:02.485 It's also the effect they have on everybody else You 0:06:02.525 --> 0:06:04.965 can often the easiest way to tell that there is 0:06:05.005 --> 0:06:07.845 a psychopath in a workplace is to look at what's 0:06:07.885 --> 0:06:11.405 going on. If there is a large group of people 0:06:11.965 --> 0:06:16.725 fighting for no good reason, large amounts of confusion, in fighting, distrust, 0:06:16.965 --> 0:06:19.845 lack of cooperation, then there's going to be a psychopath 0:06:20.045 --> 0:06:23.445 in the center there somewhere. That's the effect they have 0:06:23.565 --> 0:06:26.125 on normal people, and so that's often the telltale sign 0:06:26.205 --> 0:06:29.405 that they're there anyway. So I was encountering this sort 0:06:29.405 --> 0:06:33.205 of thing reasonably frequently, and I'd read books about it, 0:06:33.245 --> 0:06:36.085 and there are many, many books about psychopaths in the workplace. 0:06:36.245 --> 0:06:40.525 And what I found really frustrating about the books was 0:06:41.125 --> 0:06:44.245 they didn't tell you what to do. They are great 0:06:44.405 --> 0:06:46.965 at helping you pick them out, identify them, say yes, 0:06:47.045 --> 0:06:50.525 this person is definitely a psychopath. But then the advice 0:06:50.645 --> 0:06:53.765 is run away, Run as fast as you possibly can 0:06:54.485 --> 0:06:57.165 get away from this person. They're dangerous. There is no 0:06:57.245 --> 0:06:59.645 good that can come from this, and I found. 0:06:59.325 --> 0:07:00.725 That that's not always possible. 0:07:00.765 --> 0:07:05.925 Is well, particularly unhelpful advice, because you know, most people 0:07:05.965 --> 0:07:09.085 need their jobs. Most people can't just cut and run 0:07:09.085 --> 0:07:13.405 from a relationship or their family, or their employer or 0:07:13.445 --> 0:07:19.285 their parents. That's right. It's just tricky and dangerous, often 0:07:19.325 --> 0:07:22.285 with a psychopath. And I felt that surely we can 0:07:22.325 --> 0:07:24.845 do better than that. Surely the science must have advanced 0:07:25.205 --> 0:07:27.685 to the point where we've got better answers than run away. 0:07:29.045 --> 0:07:31.725 And so I've spent probably most of the last decade 0:07:31.725 --> 0:07:35.725 looking for those answers. And it's only really probably in 0:07:35.765 --> 0:07:37.765 the last two to three years that you've started to 0:07:37.765 --> 0:07:41.405 get definitive science about them rather than the one hundred 0:07:41.485 --> 0:07:44.805 years of psychological guesswork that we've had up till then. 0:07:45.285 --> 0:07:48.925 Now we're getting really good, high definition MRI studies that 0:07:49.245 --> 0:07:51.125 are starting to tell us a lot about how their 0:07:51.125 --> 0:07:51.765 brains work. 0:07:52.805 --> 0:07:56.085 Just jumping in to tell you the characteristics. According to 0:07:56.165 --> 0:08:00.965 David in his Book of a Psychopath, they include being charming, 0:08:01.565 --> 0:08:07.845 being self obsessed, being a fluent liar, emotional manipulation, someone 0:08:07.925 --> 0:08:13.045 completely lacking in remor or guilt, emotional shallowness and callousness, 0:08:13.885 --> 0:08:19.765 someone who takes no responsibility for their actions. Impulsive, parasitic, fearless, 0:08:20.045 --> 0:08:26.285 highly controlling, vindictive, aggressive, and intimidating. Back to David, So, 0:08:26.365 --> 0:08:28.765 I want to ask you a little bit about I'm 0:08:28.765 --> 0:08:30.445 going to ask you a lot about how to deal 0:08:30.445 --> 0:08:34.245 with psychopaths in a moment, both in work and in relationships. 0:08:34.845 --> 0:08:37.885 But I want to start just with a couple of definitions, 0:08:37.965 --> 0:08:43.165 because sometimes people the word psychopath is often used to 0:08:43.245 --> 0:08:46.485 describe the Ted Bundy's, or the Ivan Malats or the 0:08:46.485 --> 0:08:50.125 Martin Bryants, those kind of crazed and violent serial killers. 0:08:50.965 --> 0:08:54.405 Is that accurate? Are they in fact psychopaths? Or is 0:08:54.445 --> 0:08:57.565 that is it a word that's become sort of used incorrectly. 0:08:58.725 --> 0:09:01.805 It's a word whose meaning has drifted. When it was 0:09:01.925 --> 0:09:05.405 first coined, it probably did mean what I mean it 0:09:05.405 --> 0:09:08.605 to mean, which is someone who lacks empathy. So there's 0:09:08.605 --> 0:09:10.925 two types of people in the world, psychopaths and empaths, 0:09:11.285 --> 0:09:13.245 and we'll talk about that in a little bit more detail, 0:09:13.285 --> 0:09:17.005 but that's all it meant when it was first introduced 0:09:17.005 --> 0:09:19.125 to sort of in common usage in the nineteen forties. 0:09:19.485 --> 0:09:21.645 But by the nineteen sixties, with the release of the 0:09:21.645 --> 0:09:25.085 film Psycho, the meaning had drifted more towards the person 0:09:25.125 --> 0:09:28.565 who stabs you in the shower kind of person, and. 0:09:28.445 --> 0:09:31.085 So that's more about psychotically exactly. 0:09:31.485 --> 0:09:33.525 He probably wasn't a psychopath at all. Norman Bates was 0:09:33.525 --> 0:09:38.805 probably psychotic, but not a psychopath, But that took that 0:09:38.925 --> 0:09:44.045 meaning in that direction, and instead we invented a new word, sociopath, 0:09:44.125 --> 0:09:46.165 which essentially meant the same thing, but it was a 0:09:46.205 --> 0:09:49.485 nicer way of calling someone a psychopath, and now people 0:09:49.525 --> 0:09:53.365 even suggest that they're different things altogether. The difficulty is 0:09:53.365 --> 0:09:57.645 that from a psychological perspective, there is no diagnosis of 0:09:57.685 --> 0:10:02.485 psychopathy or sociopathy. Neither of them really well Neither of 0:10:02.525 --> 0:10:06.525 them do appear in the official Manual for psychiatric diagnosis. 0:10:06.645 --> 0:10:10.445 So the closest you can get is antisocial personality disorder 0:10:10.605 --> 0:10:14.685 or perhaps narcissistic personality disorder, both of which are much 0:10:14.765 --> 0:10:17.765 wider than what I would call a psychopath. 0:10:18.725 --> 0:10:21.045 So correct me if I'm wrong. Is there almost a 0:10:21.205 --> 0:10:26.685 spectrum of psychopathic behavior? Or is there a spectrum of 0:10:26.725 --> 0:10:34.765 antisocial behavior upon which different things sit like narcissism, sociopath, psychopath? 0:10:35.925 --> 0:10:37.325 Does it kind of work like that? 0:10:37.525 --> 0:10:39.325 There've been a lot of people who've published a lot 0:10:39.325 --> 0:10:42.045 of papers that puts forward all those sorts of hypotheses 0:10:42.205 --> 0:10:44.485 over the years. I would say that the science is 0:10:44.525 --> 0:10:46.605 at a point now where we can say you either 0:10:46.645 --> 0:10:49.845 are or you aren't okay this kind of person, and 0:10:50.045 --> 0:10:52.405 the only real difference is the degree to which or 0:10:52.445 --> 0:10:55.925 how you express your lack of empathy. So the bloke 0:10:55.965 --> 0:10:58.285 who ends up in prison for chopping up sixteen people 0:10:59.445 --> 0:11:03.325 has probably low access to resources and the only route 0:11:03.365 --> 0:11:06.965 to power and fame or money or what he wanted 0:11:07.565 --> 0:11:09.685 was to kill people who got in his way. And 0:11:09.725 --> 0:11:12.365 when you talk to people who work with criminal psychopaths, 0:11:13.845 --> 0:11:16.085 it's interesting, you know. In fact, I was talking to 0:11:16.125 --> 0:11:18.365 a forensic psychologist just the other day, and I said, 0:11:18.365 --> 0:11:21.925 how does a criminal psychopath deal with a psychopath that 0:11:21.965 --> 0:11:25.165 they encounter? And he said, oh, easy, they just kill them. 0:11:25.325 --> 0:11:31.525 So problem solved. Now you're more high functioning psychopath. That is, 0:11:31.565 --> 0:11:38.485 people with more access to better resources, better resources like education, power, 0:11:39.005 --> 0:11:42.405 social skills, those sorts of things don't need to kill 0:11:42.445 --> 0:11:44.485 people to get what they want, so they don't. 0:11:44.965 --> 0:11:49.765 Are all psychopaths perfectly happy to kill people if necessary. 0:11:50.285 --> 0:11:53.805 They don't see a problem with killing people, and that's 0:11:53.845 --> 0:11:57.685 a fundamental and that probably in the most stark example 0:11:58.245 --> 0:12:01.405 of how they think differently to the rest of us. 0:12:01.965 --> 0:12:05.125 To us, if I said to you, oh, look, if 0:12:05.165 --> 0:12:07.485 you hit someone, you won't want to do that because 0:12:07.525 --> 0:12:10.605 you'll be causing pain to another person. And you don't 0:12:10.605 --> 0:12:12.405 want to do that because it kind of bounces back 0:12:12.405 --> 0:12:15.005 at you through empathy, and that you cause pain to others, 0:12:15.085 --> 0:12:17.965 you feel their pain. And some people say, oh maybe 0:12:17.965 --> 0:12:19.325 sometimes something. It depends who it is. 0:12:20.525 --> 0:12:23.485 So a psychopath might not want to kill someone, but 0:12:23.525 --> 0:12:25.885 only because it would be inconvenient for them because they 0:12:25.925 --> 0:12:27.245 would have to go to jail. 0:12:27.005 --> 0:12:30.725 And they're not afraid of consequences. But they are well 0:12:30.725 --> 0:12:34.125 aware of the practicality, so it's more like a computer 0:12:34.205 --> 0:12:37.685 assessment of things. Okay, am I likely to get away 0:12:37.685 --> 0:12:40.845 with this? Can I do it in such a way 0:12:41.285 --> 0:12:45.085 that I won't suffer harm or or just it won't 0:12:45.125 --> 0:12:47.965 impair my ability to continue, and being in jail will 0:12:48.125 --> 0:12:51.925 impair their ability to continue. So it's more like a 0:12:52.005 --> 0:12:55.205 logical planning than any kind of a fear of going 0:12:55.205 --> 0:12:55.685 to jail. 0:12:56.125 --> 0:12:59.005 You talk about the difference in your book between feelings 0:12:59.045 --> 0:13:03.045 and emotions. Yes, can you explain how that fits into 0:13:03.085 --> 0:13:05.325 being an EmPATH or a psychopath? 0:13:05.445 --> 0:13:10.285 Sure, Often psychopaths are described as having an no capacity 0:13:10.325 --> 0:13:14.045 for emotion, and that's not strictly correct. They have the 0:13:14.045 --> 0:13:17.605 same capacity for emotion as we do. They just have 0:13:17.725 --> 0:13:19.925 no control system over the top of it. So let 0:13:20.005 --> 0:13:24.085 me be clear about that. Our ancient reptilian brain, the 0:13:24.125 --> 0:13:29.405 limbic system, experiences very direct emotions, and there's various theories 0:13:29.445 --> 0:13:31.765 about it, but people put it between somewhere between five 0:13:31.805 --> 0:13:35.325 and six basic emotions. And I don't know, but things 0:13:35.405 --> 0:13:40.645 like fear, lust, anger, things like that really core. 0:13:41.125 --> 0:13:43.085 So the things you almost don't they're almost reflexive. 0:13:43.205 --> 0:13:47.125 Yes, they are reflexive, so completely unable to be managed 0:13:47.165 --> 0:13:50.045 in any way whatsoever. Psychopaths experience those just as much 0:13:50.085 --> 0:13:53.725 as as empaths do. What happens in an EmPATH, though, 0:13:53.925 --> 0:13:58.485 is that, using a system called spindle neurons, they transfer 0:13:58.605 --> 0:14:01.845 those emotions up into the frontal cortex in the brain, 0:14:02.725 --> 0:14:05.325 which would be what i'd call the adult supervision of 0:14:05.365 --> 0:14:07.925 the human brain. This is our most recently evolved part 0:14:07.925 --> 0:14:10.965 of the brain. It is the bit that makes decisions 0:14:11.045 --> 0:14:15.685 about whether to react. How to react, how to deal 0:14:15.725 --> 0:14:18.405 with emotions is one of the things it does. So 0:14:18.445 --> 0:14:21.125 it's a sort of a higher level translation, and it 0:14:21.165 --> 0:14:24.085 takes your basic emotions and translates that into an array 0:14:24.245 --> 0:14:28.885 of feelings. So last gets translated in some circumstances into 0:14:28.965 --> 0:14:35.165 love or like or whatever is the more appropriate higher 0:14:35.245 --> 0:14:39.965 level functional emotion. Psychopaths don't do that. They can't do that, 0:14:41.165 --> 0:14:43.525 and so that's the bit that they're missing. 0:14:43.885 --> 0:14:46.605 And so if they experience anger. 0:14:46.605 --> 0:14:49.845 Then they experience anger, and it is full on, uncontrolled, 0:14:50.005 --> 0:14:51.325 uncontrollable anger. 0:14:51.565 --> 0:14:57.485 Right with this idea of psychopaths not being able to 0:14:58.005 --> 0:15:03.205 experience empathy, yes, that is sometimes said. I want to 0:15:03.325 --> 0:15:05.565 draw a very clear distinction sometimes set of people with 0:15:05.605 --> 0:15:09.965 aspergers that they can't experience emotions in the same way 0:15:10.005 --> 0:15:12.765 that people who aren't on the spectrum can. 0:15:13.285 --> 0:15:18.085 There's two types of empathy. There's cognitive empathy and emotional empathy. 0:15:18.565 --> 0:15:22.725 Psychopaths experience cognitive empathy. That is, they can observe somebody 0:15:22.765 --> 0:15:25.605 and they can judge why they are reacting the way 0:15:25.645 --> 0:15:29.805 they are, assign an explanation to it, and make moves 0:15:29.845 --> 0:15:33.045 based on what they are seeing. That's cognitive empathy. Psychopaths 0:15:33.085 --> 0:15:35.085 are brilliant at that. In fact, they are probably better 0:15:35.165 --> 0:15:39.445 at that than any normal EmPATH simply because they don't 0:15:39.445 --> 0:15:41.845 have the other bit, emotional empathy, and rather like a 0:15:41.845 --> 0:15:46.845 blind person, develops significantly better capabilities with say, hearing or 0:15:46.885 --> 0:15:51.365 other senses. Psychopaths are much better with cognitive empathy than most. 0:15:52.205 --> 0:15:54.725 Emotional empathy is the bit what I was talking about before, 0:15:54.725 --> 0:15:57.405 which is feeling what other people are feeling, so not 0:15:58.005 --> 0:16:00.485 just seeing it in their face and reacting to it, 0:16:00.565 --> 0:16:01.565 actually feeling it. 0:16:01.645 --> 0:16:05.125 So it is like watching a sad movie and crying. 0:16:05.725 --> 0:16:08.645 Yeah, well, it's even more than that. It's seeing somebody 0:16:08.725 --> 0:16:14.125 be hurt or feeling joy and feeling it yourself and 0:16:14.605 --> 0:16:17.085 not just thinking, oh, that's joy, that's good for them, 0:16:17.285 --> 0:16:20.245 but which is what a psychopath would think, but actually 0:16:20.285 --> 0:16:23.125 feeling it, actually feeling it, as if you were. 0:16:23.085 --> 0:16:25.365 Expect when your sports team wins. 0:16:25.445 --> 0:16:28.605 That's right, yeah, But a psychopath could feel joy at 0:16:28.605 --> 0:16:31.045 that because they want to bet or something like that, 0:16:31.045 --> 0:16:33.765 but they wouldn't feel the emotion. They wouldn't feel that 0:16:34.285 --> 0:16:38.645 as if they were experiencing it themselves. And there's the 0:16:38.645 --> 0:16:43.285 difference with Asperger's, so aspergic people are the other way around. 0:16:43.765 --> 0:16:50.365 They have enormous capacity for emotional empathy and no capacity 0:16:50.405 --> 0:16:51.605 for cognitive empathy. 0:16:51.845 --> 0:16:52.805 So they just feel things, but. 0:16:52.845 --> 0:16:58.205 They feel exactly but don't know why. So they're almost 0:16:58.325 --> 0:17:00.805 kind of the opposite of a psychopath in that sense. 0:17:01.045 --> 0:17:03.805 But in a societal sense, it often, as you say, 0:17:03.925 --> 0:17:07.605 comes across in a very similar fashion, which is that 0:17:07.605 --> 0:17:13.285 they're disconnected in some way. And you often see aspergic 0:17:13.285 --> 0:17:17.285 people described as if they were psychopathic in their responses, 0:17:17.285 --> 0:17:20.285 but it's not. It's actually them shutting down because they 0:17:20.285 --> 0:17:21.245 are feeling so much. 0:17:22.885 --> 0:17:25.685 You say in your book that the job psychopaths are 0:17:25.725 --> 0:17:31.605 most attracted to ceo, lawyer, TV or radio hosts, salesperson, surgeon, journalist, 0:17:32.645 --> 0:17:39.045 police officer, clergyperson, chef, civil servant. Yes, and the job 0:17:39.085 --> 0:17:43.885 psychopaths aren't attracted to include sort of the caring professions, 0:17:43.885 --> 0:17:47.325 so a care aid, a nurse, a therapist, a crafts person, 0:17:48.045 --> 0:17:53.005 a beautician, stylist, charity worker, teacher, creative artists, doctor, accountant. 0:17:53.325 --> 0:17:56.325 Interesting between the difference between a doctor and a surgeon. Yes, 0:17:56.485 --> 0:18:02.885 So why do those industries, particularly journalism, police officers, surgeons, CEOs, lawyers, 0:18:02.885 --> 0:18:07.085 why do they attract psychopaths or do they create psychopaths? 0:18:07.205 --> 0:18:09.165 Or is something is so psychopaths something you're either born 0:18:09.165 --> 0:18:09.845 as or not. 0:18:10.445 --> 0:18:14.365 Well, psychopaths, whether you're born at it as one or 0:18:14.485 --> 0:18:16.685 not is an interesting question which I don't believe we've 0:18:16.725 --> 0:18:18.805 got a good answer to at the moment. There's a 0:18:18.845 --> 0:18:20.725 couple of things we do know, which is that those 0:18:21.045 --> 0:18:25.365 spindle neurons, which are essentially the circuitry for empathy, are 0:18:25.605 --> 0:18:29.085 hardwired into the adult human brain at a certain density, 0:18:29.085 --> 0:18:31.085 and we know that when they are there at that density, 0:18:31.125 --> 0:18:33.965 the human brain is a normal EmPATH. When they are 0:18:33.965 --> 0:18:36.565 there below that density, we know they are a psychopath. 0:18:36.765 --> 0:18:39.325 And when they are there above the normal density, we 0:18:39.405 --> 0:18:43.285 know that they are depressive, which is interesting. It always 0:18:43.405 --> 0:18:47.765 makes depression and psychopathy opposites of each other, so we 0:18:47.885 --> 0:18:50.405 know that about it. We also know that at birth 0:18:50.645 --> 0:18:54.565 humans have almost none of these neurons, rather like every 0:18:54.565 --> 0:18:57.485 other animal on the planet. But between birth and the 0:18:57.525 --> 0:19:01.805 age of four humans normal humans develop the normal density 0:19:01.885 --> 0:19:08.405 of neurons or the spindle neurons. Psychopaths don't and something. Therefore, 0:19:08.485 --> 0:19:11.405 it's either happy between zero and four, or it was 0:19:11.445 --> 0:19:14.525 going to happen anyway, or it's a combination of two 0:19:14.645 --> 0:19:17.165 in that there was a propensity and then something happened. 0:19:18.005 --> 0:19:20.565 Which of those it is, we have no idea, but 0:19:20.885 --> 0:19:23.485 it is interesting that there's a couple of things that 0:19:23.525 --> 0:19:25.725 come out of that. First, a newborn is basically a 0:19:25.765 --> 0:19:31.485 psychopath every newborn, and they develop empathy over the course 0:19:31.605 --> 0:19:35.725 of the next four years when not or not the 0:19:35.845 --> 0:19:39.085 vast majority do, but some don't. Now, coming back to 0:19:39.125 --> 0:19:44.085 the professions, psychopaths are attracted to professions that give them 0:19:44.165 --> 0:19:48.885 power over others, so give them the ability to control others, 0:19:49.965 --> 0:19:53.605 have people be subservient to them in some way, and 0:19:53.645 --> 0:19:56.845 they are less attracted to professions where they would have 0:19:56.845 --> 0:19:57.565 to serve others. 0:19:58.885 --> 0:20:04.885 I say so they often can become very successful in 0:20:04.925 --> 0:20:08.045 these professions and rise quite high. Why is that. 0:20:09.445 --> 0:20:15.725 Psychopaths interview really well, like really well one of their 0:20:15.765 --> 0:20:18.565 real skills, and this arises out of their strength and 0:20:18.645 --> 0:20:22.645 cognitive empathy, which is they are very very good at 0:20:22.685 --> 0:20:26.005 reading us. Within seconds, they can read us. It's almost 0:20:26.085 --> 0:20:30.325 psychic in their ability, and it isn't psychic. All it 0:20:30.405 --> 0:20:32.805 is is that they have. Because they lack cognitive empathy, 0:20:32.805 --> 0:20:36.325 they can't rely on automatic emotional detection. They have to 0:20:36.325 --> 0:20:38.765 do it manually. They have to do it by reading you. 0:20:39.525 --> 0:20:42.525 And because of that, they are very good at telling 0:20:42.565 --> 0:20:45.325 what we want to hear. They know what we want 0:20:45.365 --> 0:20:48.325 to hear and they reflect it back to us. Now, 0:20:48.405 --> 0:20:50.685 in this day and age, we make that especially easy 0:20:50.685 --> 0:20:54.285 for them because we publish what we want, what we're 0:20:54.285 --> 0:20:58.685 afraid of, what our likes and desires and insecurities are 0:20:58.805 --> 0:21:02.485 all over the internet. For that reason, psychopaths rarely have 0:21:03.805 --> 0:21:06.805 social media accounts of their own. They don't like to 0:21:06.845 --> 0:21:09.325 publish information about themselves because one of the other things 0:21:09.325 --> 0:21:12.005 about psychopaths is that they'll tell you a different story 0:21:12.045 --> 0:21:14.405 to they'll tell me to the next person they meet, 0:21:14.765 --> 0:21:18.165 and it's very, very hard to maintain a consistent story 0:21:18.245 --> 0:21:21.165 if you're putting your whole life on social media, but 0:21:21.285 --> 0:21:24.245 they do use it to stalk people. They can get 0:21:24.245 --> 0:21:28.005 a lot of information about a potential target from what 0:21:28.045 --> 0:21:29.725 they put on their social media. 0:21:29.765 --> 0:21:32.365 So when you say target, you know early in the book, 0:21:32.365 --> 0:21:34.605 in fact, on the first page, you compare a psychopath 0:21:34.645 --> 0:21:37.765 to a tiger and you say, if it looks like 0:21:37.805 --> 0:21:40.205 a threatening presence, then I will leave it alone. This 0:21:40.285 --> 0:21:42.365 is the tiger thinking if it looks like something I 0:21:42.405 --> 0:21:46.805 can use, then I will do so. So what is 0:21:46.845 --> 0:21:49.205 a psychopath trying to achieve. 0:21:50.365 --> 0:21:52.845 The same thing all the time? And this is worth 0:21:52.885 --> 0:21:55.485 remembering because it's the same no matter who the psychopath 0:21:55.605 --> 0:21:59.605 is or what the current situation is. They are always 0:21:59.645 --> 0:22:03.525 trying to achieve more money and power for themselves. That's it. 0:22:03.885 --> 0:22:07.965 There's nothing creative about it. That's it. And often people 0:22:07.965 --> 0:22:10.485 are quite surprised when it oils down to just that 0:22:11.125 --> 0:22:13.765 the lengths that they will go to, because it is 0:22:13.885 --> 0:22:16.165 just from moment to moment as well. It might be 0:22:16.205 --> 0:22:18.605 as simple as I don't know, getting the bigger bowl 0:22:18.605 --> 0:22:22.965 of ice cream. It's moment to moment what gives them. 0:22:23.125 --> 0:22:27.485 More So, Donald Trump, quite famously in the White House 0:22:27.725 --> 0:22:31.085 dining room, insists that he gets two scoops of ice 0:22:31.125 --> 0:22:33.365 cream and everyone else only be given one. 0:22:33.765 --> 0:22:36.165 Is that an example, Well, that's an example. 0:22:36.325 --> 0:22:37.765 That's just a dick. 0:22:38.125 --> 0:22:42.125 Well, no, no, that is an example of him demonstrating to 0:22:42.245 --> 0:22:45.085 the room that he is a superior person. And you 0:22:45.165 --> 0:22:47.565 might think the president of the United States doesn't need 0:22:47.565 --> 0:22:49.805 to remind people by how much ice cream he eats, 0:22:50.005 --> 0:22:53.885 But they don't think that way. They think everybody needs 0:22:53.925 --> 0:22:56.645 to be constantly reminded that I am better than them. 0:22:57.085 --> 0:23:00.445 Next, David explains how to tell if you work with 0:23:00.485 --> 0:23:03.725 a psychopath. What are some of the ways that you 0:23:03.805 --> 0:23:07.245 can recognize a psychopath in your midst at work? 0:23:08.965 --> 0:23:13.485 Usually one of the most obvious ways is a comparison 0:23:13.485 --> 0:23:15.205 of what they were like when you met them with 0:23:15.325 --> 0:23:18.765 what they are like now. So often when you first 0:23:18.805 --> 0:23:21.845 meet a psychopath, they are the most charming, wonderful person 0:23:21.885 --> 0:23:24.645 you've ever met in your entire life. Because they don't 0:23:24.725 --> 0:23:28.085 know you from anyone. They don't know are you going 0:23:28.085 --> 0:23:29.885 to be useful? Are you not going to be useful? 0:23:30.765 --> 0:23:33.165 And so they will play you. That means reflect back 0:23:33.205 --> 0:23:35.605 to you whatever they think you need to hear. 0:23:35.845 --> 0:23:37.685 So not even we're not even just talking about an 0:23:37.685 --> 0:23:40.365 interview situation, although that is why they will interview well, yes, 0:23:40.645 --> 0:23:43.325 when they're looking for a job, but once they've got 0:23:43.325 --> 0:23:46.885 the job, yes, everyone they meet. They will try to chart. 0:23:46.845 --> 0:23:49.685 Everyone they will meet at first, unless they get the 0:23:49.725 --> 0:23:53.565 sense that the person is a psychopath as well, which 0:23:53.565 --> 0:23:56.765 they'll be very good at picking, because there's no point 0:23:57.045 --> 0:23:59.165 they know they can't manipulate another psychopath. 0:23:59.245 --> 0:24:00.125 Is they're like a secret an. 0:24:01.645 --> 0:24:04.605