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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on. I'm Miya Friedman and the team Atmuma

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Speaker 1: Mea are bringing you over one hundred hours of the

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Speaker 1: very best of the podcasts that we've made from across

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Speaker 1: our podcast network. Do you know that we have something

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Speaker 1: like fifty six different podcasts here at Mamma Mia. And

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Speaker 1: if you follow this one, we have selected some others

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Speaker 1: that you might like to listen to as well, and

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Speaker 1: we've also brought back some of our most popular and

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Speaker 1: most riveting stories from No Filter, which is what you're

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Speaker 1: going to hear today. We first brought you this conversation

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Speaker 1: with David Gillespie about how to spot a psychopath all

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Speaker 1: the way back in twenty seventeen. But the thing about

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Speaker 1: psychopaths is that they don't change, and all the warning

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Speaker 1: signs of them are still the same, and they're still around.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about serial killer psycho paths. This is

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Speaker 1: about the psychopaths that walk among us in our families,

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Speaker 1: in our homes, in our workplaces, maybe in our friendship groups,

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Speaker 1: maybe on our dating apps. In fact, definitely also on

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Speaker 1: our dating apps. David is a phenomenal author. He's written

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Speaker 1: a lot of books on brains and navigating toxic people

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Speaker 1: and about sugar, all different kinds of things, but this

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Speaker 1: one on psychopaths, and this conversation that we had is

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Speaker 1: among the most popular No filters that I've ever done.

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Speaker 1: This episode might make you see the people around you

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Speaker 1: a little differently. Don't say we didn't mourn you. Enjoy. Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman and welcome to No Filter. This is

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Speaker 1: a podcast so you can't see my face when I'm

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Speaker 1: interviewing people, and that's part of the reason I love podcasts.

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Speaker 1: I love listening to them, I love making them because

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Speaker 1: there are no visuals to distract you. But I really,

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Speaker 1: really wish you could have seen my face when I

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Speaker 1: interviewed David Gillespie for this episode about psychopaths. Now, don't panic.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about the serial killer kind of psychopaths,

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Speaker 1: not Ivan Malaut and Martin Bryant and the Ted Bundy ones.

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Speaker 1: Because most psychopaths are not killers. Most psychopaths aren't even violent.

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Speaker 1: Their bosses and managers and parents and grandparents, and you

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Speaker 1: can find them in loads of different professions. Although some

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Speaker 1: more than others, and we'll get to that in a minute.

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Speaker 1: David Gillespie has written a book called Taming Toxic People,

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Speaker 1: The Science of Identifying and Dealing with Psychopaths, and the

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Speaker 1: book is about all the psychopaths that walk amongst us,

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Speaker 1: at work, at home, and even inside our own families.

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Speaker 1: In his book and in this interview, David explains exactly

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Speaker 1: how to identify a psychopath. And as he listed the signs,

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Speaker 1: my eyes widened so much they nearly fell out of

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Speaker 1: my head. The all, my god, moments of recognition just

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Speaker 1: kept coming during this conversation, as I began to realize

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Speaker 1: that I have indeed worked with several psychopaths during the

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Speaker 1: twenty five years I've been in the workforce. I've worked

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Speaker 1: for them, and I've worked alongside them. I've even accidentally

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Speaker 1: employed a couple, and I've certainly dated one or two.

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Speaker 1: And it's almost certain that you have too. David says

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Speaker 1: he has never ever spoken to someone about psychopaths without

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Speaker 1: them having one of those aha moments, as a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of confusing things about a certain person in your life,

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Speaker 1: or your world or your past suddenly made sense. This

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Speaker 1: is honestly the most fascinating, mind blowing interview I've done,

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Speaker 1: and I cannot stop thinking about it. Here's David Gillespie.

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Speaker 1: David Gillespie, welcome, pleasure to be here. I feel like

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Speaker 1: you could be looking at me and wondering if I

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Speaker 1: am a psychopath? Is that what you do? Now? Do

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Speaker 1: you sort of analyze people? No?

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Speaker 2: Not really. I get the feeling that that will be

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Speaker 2: someone's reaction to reading the book, But as a general rule,

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Speaker 2: I don't do it myself. Unless it's something that I

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Speaker 2: or a person I'm contemplating getting into some sort of

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Speaker 2: a financial or other close relationship with, then it's really

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Speaker 2: important to know. But the rest of the time it

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Speaker 2: doesn't really matter. Why write this book because I experienced

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Speaker 2: working for and with psychopaths on a fairly frequent basis.

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Speaker 1: And can you tell me what industry?

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Speaker 2: Roughly in just about every industry I've ever been involved in, so,

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Speaker 2: I've been involved in tech, I've been involved in law,

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Speaker 2: I've been involved in government departments, startups, all kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: It's unusual, to, in fact, find a place where you

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Speaker 2: don't encounter them in fairly significant numbers, usually at the

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Speaker 2: top of the organized and when I first encountered them,

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Speaker 2: I wasn't sure what I was dealing with. They seemed unpredictable, confusing, disruptive, destructive,

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Speaker 2: and they didn't seem to be any real pattern to

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Speaker 2: their behavior, and so I needed to put some labels

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Speaker 2: on stuff. So I went researching trying to find things.

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Speaker 2: Eventually came to the conclusion that there was this personality

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Speaker 2: type and I probably didn't put a label on it

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Speaker 2: at the time, but this anty social or psychopathic or sociopathic.

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Speaker 1: Toxic is a word obviously in the title of your book,

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Speaker 1: But that's a word that has been used more commonly

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Speaker 1: in the last few years. Hasn't it to just explain

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Speaker 1: that person at work whose behavior is confounding and excruciating, and.

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Speaker 2: It's also the effect they have on everybody else You

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Speaker 2: can often the easiest way to tell that there is

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Speaker 2: a psychopath in a workplace is to look at what's

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Speaker 2: going on. If there is a large group of people

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Speaker 2: fighting for no good reason, large amounts of confusion, in fighting, distrust,

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Speaker 2: lack of cooperation, then there's going to be a psychopath

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Speaker 2: in the center there somewhere. That's the effect they have

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Speaker 2: on normal people, and so that's often the telltale sign

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Speaker 2: that they're there anyway. So I was encountering this sort

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Speaker 2: of thing reasonably frequently, and I'd read books about it,

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Speaker 2: and there are many, many books about psychopaths in the workplace.

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Speaker 2: And what I found really frustrating about the books was

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Speaker 2: they didn't tell you what to do. They are great

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Speaker 2: at helping you pick them out, identify them, say yes,

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Speaker 2: this person is definitely a psychopath. But then the advice

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Speaker 2: is run away, Run as fast as you possibly can

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Speaker 2: get away from this person. They're dangerous. There is no

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Speaker 2: good that can come from this, and I found.

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Speaker 1: That that's not always possible.

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Speaker 2: Is well, particularly unhelpful advice, because you know, most people

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Speaker 2: need their jobs. Most people can't just cut and run

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Speaker 2: from a relationship or their family, or their employer or

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Speaker 2: their parents. That's right. It's just tricky and dangerous, often

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Speaker 2: with a psychopath. And I felt that surely we can

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Speaker 2: do better than that. Surely the science must have advanced

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Speaker 2: to the point where we've got better answers than run away.

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Speaker 2: And so I've spent probably most of the last decade

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Speaker 2: looking for those answers. And it's only really probably in

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Speaker 2: the last two to three years that you've started to

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Speaker 2: get definitive science about them rather than the one hundred

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Speaker 2: years of psychological guesswork that we've had up till then.

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Speaker 2: Now we're getting really good, high definition MRI studies that

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Speaker 2: are starting to tell us a lot about how their

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Speaker 2: brains work.

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Speaker 1: Just jumping in to tell you the characteristics. According to

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Speaker 1: David in his Book of a Psychopath, they include being charming,

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Speaker 1: being self obsessed, being a fluent liar, emotional manipulation, someone

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Speaker 1: completely lacking in remor or guilt, emotional shallowness and callousness,

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Speaker 1: someone who takes no responsibility for their actions. Impulsive, parasitic, fearless,

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Speaker 1: highly controlling, vindictive, aggressive, and intimidating. Back to David, So,

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you a little bit about I'm

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Speaker 1: going to ask you a lot about how to deal

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Speaker 1: with psychopaths in a moment, both in work and in relationships.

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Speaker 1: But I want to start just with a couple of definitions,

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Speaker 1: because sometimes people the word psychopath is often used to

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Speaker 1: describe the Ted Bundy's, or the Ivan Malats or the

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Speaker 1: Martin Bryants, those kind of crazed and violent serial killers.

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Speaker 1: Is that accurate? Are they in fact psychopaths? Or is

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Speaker 1: that is it a word that's become sort of used incorrectly.

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Speaker 2: It's a word whose meaning has drifted. When it was

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Speaker 2: first coined, it probably did mean what I mean it

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Speaker 2: to mean, which is someone who lacks empathy. So there's

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Speaker 2: two types of people in the world, psychopaths and empaths,

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Speaker 2: and we'll talk about that in a little bit more detail,

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Speaker 2: but that's all it meant when it was first introduced

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Speaker 2: to sort of in common usage in the nineteen forties.

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Speaker 2: But by the nineteen sixties, with the release of the

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Speaker 2: film Psycho, the meaning had drifted more towards the person

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Speaker 2: who stabs you in the shower kind of person, and.

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Speaker 1: So that's more about psychotically exactly.

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Speaker 2: He probably wasn't a psychopath at all. Norman Bates was

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Speaker 2: probably psychotic, but not a psychopath, But that took that

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Speaker 2: meaning in that direction, and instead we invented a new word, sociopath,

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Speaker 2: which essentially meant the same thing, but it was a

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Speaker 2: nicer way of calling someone a psychopath, and now people

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Speaker 2: even suggest that they're different things altogether. The difficulty is

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Speaker 2: that from a psychological perspective, there is no diagnosis of

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Speaker 2: psychopathy or sociopathy. Neither of them really well Neither of

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Speaker 2: them do appear in the official Manual for psychiatric diagnosis.

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Speaker 2: So the closest you can get is antisocial personality disorder

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Speaker 2: or perhaps narcissistic personality disorder, both of which are much

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Speaker 2: wider than what I would call a psychopath.

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Speaker 1: So correct me if I'm wrong. Is there almost a

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Speaker 1: spectrum of psychopathic behavior? Or is there a spectrum of

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Speaker 1: antisocial behavior upon which different things sit like narcissism, sociopath, psychopath?

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Speaker 1: Does it kind of work like that?

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Speaker 2: There've been a lot of people who've published a lot

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Speaker 2: of papers that puts forward all those sorts of hypotheses

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Speaker 2: over the years. I would say that the science is

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Speaker 2: at a point now where we can say you either

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Speaker 2: are or you aren't okay this kind of person, and

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Speaker 2: the only real difference is the degree to which or

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Speaker 2: how you express your lack of empathy. So the bloke

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Speaker 2: who ends up in prison for chopping up sixteen people

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Speaker 2: has probably low access to resources and the only route

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Speaker 2: to power and fame or money or what he wanted

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Speaker 2: was to kill people who got in his way. And

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Speaker 2: when you talk to people who work with criminal psychopaths,

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Speaker 2: it's interesting, you know. In fact, I was talking to

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Speaker 2: a forensic psychologist just the other day, and I said,

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Speaker 2: how does a criminal psychopath deal with a psychopath that

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Speaker 2: they encounter? And he said, oh, easy, they just kill them.

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Speaker 2: So problem solved. Now you're more high functioning psychopath. That is,

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Speaker 2: people with more access to better resources, better resources like education, power,

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Speaker 2: social skills, those sorts of things don't need to kill

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Speaker 2: people to get what they want, so they don't.

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Speaker 1: Are all psychopaths perfectly happy to kill people if necessary.

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Speaker 2: They don't see a problem with killing people, and that's

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Speaker 2: a fundamental and that probably in the most stark example

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Speaker 2: of how they think differently to the rest of us.

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Speaker 2: To us, if I said to you, oh, look, if

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Speaker 2: you hit someone, you won't want to do that because

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Speaker 2: you'll be causing pain to another person. And you don't

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Speaker 2: want to do that because it kind of bounces back

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Speaker 2: at you through empathy, and that you cause pain to others,

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Speaker 2: you feel their pain. And some people say, oh maybe

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Speaker 2: sometimes something. It depends who it is.

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Speaker 1: So a psychopath might not want to kill someone, but

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Speaker 1: only because it would be inconvenient for them because they

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Speaker 1: would have to go to jail.

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Speaker 2: And they're not afraid of consequences. But they are well

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Speaker 2: aware of the practicality, so it's more like a computer

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Speaker 2: assessment of things. Okay, am I likely to get away

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Speaker 2: with this? Can I do it in such a way

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Speaker 2: that I won't suffer harm or or just it won't

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Speaker 2: impair my ability to continue, and being in jail will

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Speaker 2: impair their ability to continue. So it's more like a

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Speaker 2: logical planning than any kind of a fear of going

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Speaker 2: to jail.

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Speaker 1: You talk about the difference in your book between feelings

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Speaker 1: and emotions. Yes, can you explain how that fits into

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Speaker 1: being an EmPATH or a psychopath?

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Speaker 2: Sure, Often psychopaths are described as having an no capacity

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Speaker 2: for emotion, and that's not strictly correct. They have the

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Speaker 2: same capacity for emotion as we do. They just have

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Speaker 2: no control system over the top of it. So let

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Speaker 2: me be clear about that. Our ancient reptilian brain, the

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Speaker 2: limbic system, experiences very direct emotions, and there's various theories

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Speaker 2: about it, but people put it between somewhere between five

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Speaker 2: and six basic emotions. And I don't know, but things

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Speaker 2: like fear, lust, anger, things like that really core.

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Speaker 1: So the things you almost don't they're almost reflexive.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they are reflexive, so completely unable to be managed

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Speaker 2: in any way whatsoever. Psychopaths experience those just as much

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Speaker 2: as as empaths do. What happens in an EmPATH, though,

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Speaker 2: is that, using a system called spindle neurons, they transfer

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Speaker 2: those emotions up into the frontal cortex in the brain,

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Speaker 2: which would be what i'd call the adult supervision of

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Speaker 2: the human brain. This is our most recently evolved part

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Speaker 2: of the brain. It is the bit that makes decisions

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Speaker 2: about whether to react. How to react, how to deal

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Speaker 2: with emotions is one of the things it does. So

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Speaker 2: it's a sort of a higher level translation, and it

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Speaker 2: takes your basic emotions and translates that into an array

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Speaker 2: of feelings. So last gets translated in some circumstances into

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Speaker 2: love or like or whatever is the more appropriate higher

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Speaker 2: level functional emotion. Psychopaths don't do that. They can't do that,

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Speaker 2: and so that's the bit that they're missing.

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Speaker 1: And so if they experience anger.

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Speaker 2: Then they experience anger, and it is full on, uncontrolled,

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Speaker 2: uncontrollable anger.

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Speaker 1: Right with this idea of psychopaths not being able to

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Speaker 1: experience empathy, yes, that is sometimes said. I want to

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Speaker 1: draw a very clear distinction sometimes set of people with

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Speaker 1: aspergers that they can't experience emotions in the same way

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Speaker 1: that people who aren't on the spectrum can.

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Speaker 2: There's two types of empathy. There's cognitive empathy and emotional empathy.

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Speaker 2: Psychopaths experience cognitive empathy. That is, they can observe somebody

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Speaker 2: and they can judge why they are reacting the way

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Speaker 2: they are, assign an explanation to it, and make moves

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Speaker 2: based on what they are seeing. That's cognitive empathy. Psychopaths

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Speaker 2: are brilliant at that. In fact, they are probably better

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Speaker 2: at that than any normal EmPATH simply because they don't

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Speaker 2: have the other bit, emotional empathy, and rather like a

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Speaker 2: blind person, develops significantly better capabilities with say, hearing or

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Speaker 2: other senses. Psychopaths are much better with cognitive empathy than most.

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Speaker 2: Emotional empathy is the bit what I was talking about before,

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Speaker 2: which is feeling what other people are feeling, so not

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Speaker 2: just seeing it in their face and reacting to it,

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Speaker 2: actually feeling it.

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Speaker 1: So it is like watching a sad movie and crying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's even more than that. It's seeing somebody

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Speaker 2: be hurt or feeling joy and feeling it yourself and

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Speaker 2: not just thinking, oh, that's joy, that's good for them,

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Speaker 2: but which is what a psychopath would think, but actually

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Speaker 2: feeling it, actually feeling it, as if you were.

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Speaker 1: Expect when your sports team wins.

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Speaker 2: That's right, yeah, But a psychopath could feel joy at

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Speaker 2: that because they want to bet or something like that,

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Speaker 2: but they wouldn't feel the emotion. They wouldn't feel that

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Speaker 2: as if they were experiencing it themselves. And there's the

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Speaker 2: difference with Asperger's, so aspergic people are the other way around.

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Speaker 2: They have enormous capacity for emotional empathy and no capacity

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Speaker 2: for cognitive empathy.

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Speaker 1: So they just feel things, but.

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Speaker 2: They feel exactly but don't know why. So they're almost

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Speaker 2: kind of the opposite of a psychopath in that sense.

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Speaker 2: But in a societal sense, it often, as you say,

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Speaker 2: comes across in a very similar fashion, which is that

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Speaker 2: they're disconnected in some way. And you often see aspergic

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Speaker 2: people described as if they were psychopathic in their responses,

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Speaker 2: but it's not. It's actually them shutting down because they

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Speaker 2: are feeling so much.

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Speaker 1: You say in your book that the job psychopaths are

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Speaker 1: most attracted to ceo, lawyer, TV or radio hosts, salesperson, surgeon, journalist,

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Speaker 1: police officer, clergyperson, chef, civil servant. Yes, and the job

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Speaker 1: psychopaths aren't attracted to include sort of the caring professions,

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Speaker 1: so a care aid, a nurse, a therapist, a crafts person,

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Speaker 1: a beautician, stylist, charity worker, teacher, creative artists, doctor, accountant.

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Speaker 1: Interesting between the difference between a doctor and a surgeon. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So why do those industries, particularly journalism, police officers, surgeons, CEOs, lawyers,

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Speaker 1: why do they attract psychopaths or do they create psychopaths?

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Speaker 1: Or is something is so psychopaths something you're either born

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Speaker 1: as or not.

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Speaker 2: Well, psychopaths, whether you're born at it as one or

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Speaker 2: not is an interesting question which I don't believe we've

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Speaker 2: got a good answer to at the moment. There's a

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Speaker 2: couple of things we do know, which is that those

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Speaker 2: spindle neurons, which are essentially the circuitry for empathy, are

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Speaker 2: hardwired into the adult human brain at a certain density,

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Speaker 2: and we know that when they are there at that density,

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Speaker 2: the human brain is a normal EmPATH. When they are

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Speaker 2: there below that density, we know they are a psychopath.

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Speaker 2: And when they are there above the normal density, we

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Speaker 2: know that they are depressive, which is interesting. It always

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Speaker 2: makes depression and psychopathy opposites of each other, so we

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Speaker 2: know that about it. We also know that at birth

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Speaker 2: humans have almost none of these neurons, rather like every

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Speaker 2: other animal on the planet. But between birth and the

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Speaker 2: age of four humans normal humans develop the normal density

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Speaker 2: of neurons or the spindle neurons. Psychopaths don't and something. Therefore,

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Speaker 2: it's either happy between zero and four, or it was

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Speaker 2: going to happen anyway, or it's a combination of two

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Speaker 2: in that there was a propensity and then something happened.

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Speaker 2: Which of those it is, we have no idea, but

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Speaker 2: it is interesting that there's a couple of things that

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Speaker 2: come out of that. First, a newborn is basically a

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Speaker 2: psychopath every newborn, and they develop empathy over the course

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Speaker 2: of the next four years when not or not the

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Speaker 2: vast majority do, but some don't. Now, coming back to

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Speaker 2: the professions, psychopaths are attracted to professions that give them

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Speaker 2: power over others, so give them the ability to control others,

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Speaker 2: have people be subservient to them in some way, and

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Speaker 2: they are less attracted to professions where they would have

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Speaker 2: to serve others.

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Speaker 1: I say so they often can become very successful in

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Speaker 1: these professions and rise quite high. Why is that.

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Speaker 2: Psychopaths interview really well, like really well one of their

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Speaker 2: real skills, and this arises out of their strength and

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Speaker 2: cognitive empathy, which is they are very very good at

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Speaker 2: reading us. Within seconds, they can read us. It's almost

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Speaker 2: psychic in their ability, and it isn't psychic. All it

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Speaker 2: is is that they have. Because they lack cognitive empathy,

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Speaker 2: they can't rely on automatic emotional detection. They have to

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Speaker 2: do it manually. They have to do it by reading you.

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Speaker 2: And because of that, they are very good at telling

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Speaker 2: what we want to hear. They know what we want

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Speaker 2: to hear and they reflect it back to us. Now,

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Speaker 2: in this day and age, we make that especially easy

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Speaker 2: for them because we publish what we want, what we're

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Speaker 2: afraid of, what our likes and desires and insecurities are

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Speaker 2: all over the internet. For that reason, psychopaths rarely have

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Speaker 2: social media accounts of their own. They don't like to

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Speaker 2: publish information about themselves because one of the other things

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Speaker 2: about psychopaths is that they'll tell you a different story

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Speaker 2: to they'll tell me to the next person they meet,

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Speaker 2: and it's very, very hard to maintain a consistent story

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Speaker 2: if you're putting your whole life on social media, but

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Speaker 2: they do use it to stalk people. They can get

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Speaker 2: a lot of information about a potential target from what

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Speaker 2: they put on their social media.

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Speaker 1: So when you say target, you know early in the book,

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Speaker 1: in fact, on the first page, you compare a psychopath

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Speaker 1: to a tiger and you say, if it looks like

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Speaker 1: a threatening presence, then I will leave it alone. This

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Speaker 1: is the tiger thinking if it looks like something I

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Speaker 1: can use, then I will do so. So what is

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Speaker 1: a psychopath trying to achieve.

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Speaker 2: The same thing all the time? And this is worth

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Speaker 2: remembering because it's the same no matter who the psychopath

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Speaker 2: is or what the current situation is. They are always

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Speaker 2: trying to achieve more money and power for themselves. That's it.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing creative about it. That's it. And often people

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Speaker 2: are quite surprised when it oils down to just that

365
00:22:11,125 --> 00:22:13,765
Speaker 2: the lengths that they will go to, because it is

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Speaker 2: just from moment to moment as well. It might be

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Speaker 2: as simple as I don't know, getting the bigger bowl

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Speaker 2: of ice cream. It's moment to moment what gives them.

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Speaker 1: More So, Donald Trump, quite famously in the White House

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Speaker 1: dining room, insists that he gets two scoops of ice

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Speaker 1: cream and everyone else only be given one.

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Speaker 2: Is that an example, Well, that's an example.

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Speaker 1: That's just a dick.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, no, that is an example of him demonstrating to

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Speaker 2: the room that he is a superior person. And you

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Speaker 2: might think the president of the United States doesn't need

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Speaker 2: to remind people by how much ice cream he eats,

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Speaker 2: But they don't think that way. They think everybody needs

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Speaker 2: to be constantly reminded that I am better than them.

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Speaker 1: Next, David explains how to tell if you work with

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Speaker 1: a psychopath. What are some of the ways that you

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Speaker 1: can recognize a psychopath in your midst at work?

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Speaker 2: Usually one of the most obvious ways is a comparison

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Speaker 2: of what they were like when you met them with

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Speaker 2: what they are like now. So often when you first

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Speaker 2: meet a psychopath, they are the most charming, wonderful person

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Speaker 2: you've ever met in your entire life. Because they don't

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Speaker 2: know you from anyone. They don't know are you going

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Speaker 2: to be useful? Are you not going to be useful?

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Speaker 2: And so they will play you. That means reflect back

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Speaker 2: to you whatever they think you need to hear.

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Speaker 1: So not even we're not even just talking about an

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Speaker 1: interview situation, although that is why they will interview well, yes,

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Speaker 1: when they're looking for a job, but once they've got

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Speaker 1: the job, yes, everyone they meet. They will try to chart.

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Speaker 2: Everyone they will meet at first, unless they get the

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Speaker 2: sense that the person is a psychopath as well, which

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Speaker 2: they'll be very good at picking, because there's no point

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Speaker 2: they know they can't manipulate another psychopath.

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Speaker 1: Is they're like a secret an.

401
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Speaker 2: There's probably a secret look. I don't know, but they

402
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Speaker 2: are extraordinarily efficient at identifying both victims and hard obstacles

403
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Speaker 2: will be other psychopaths. People that can't be manipulated are

404
00:24:13,405 --> 00:24:16,605
Speaker 2: no good to a psychopath because almost everything they do

405
00:24:16,885 --> 00:24:21,085
Speaker 2: revolves around manipulating people to gather power and money to themselves.

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Speaker 1: Do a psychopath know they're a psychopath.

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Speaker 2: They probably don't have a label for it. They certainly

408
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Speaker 2: know they're different and, in their view, better than everybody else,

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Speaker 2: So they will have known this from a very very

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Speaker 2: young age. They'll have known just by looking at an

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Speaker 2: earthquake on television and seeing people suffering and seeing the

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Speaker 2: effect on the people around and they go, oh, gosh,

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Speaker 2: I guess I'm supposed to be affected by this. So

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Speaker 2: they'll know they're different, and eventually they'll be able to

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Speaker 2: say they're different better in the sense that they're not

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Speaker 2: crippled by these emotions and feelings. And what's better, they

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Speaker 2: find that they can in fact manipulate people with these

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Speaker 2: emotions and feelings.

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Speaker 1: And so they'll meet they'll meet you. They'll be charming

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Speaker 1: because they won't know yet what you can do for

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Speaker 1: them or not do for that.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: What will happen next.

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Speaker 2: Once they're in So, once they're in a relationship with you,

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Speaker 2: working for you, working with you, whatever, they'll drop the facade.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot of work to maintain a facade. It's

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Speaker 2: even more work to maintain multiple facades to different audiences.

428
00:25:24,885 --> 00:25:28,325
Speaker 2: So they'll drop that and you'll see it slip at first,

429
00:25:28,445 --> 00:25:29,965
Speaker 2: and then eventually they won't bother at all.

430
00:25:30,405 --> 00:25:32,485
Speaker 1: So does this happen over a period of weeks? Does

431
00:25:32,485 --> 00:25:34,685
Speaker 1: it happen over a period of years. Let's stick to

432
00:25:34,725 --> 00:25:36,205
Speaker 1: the workplace for a sex. I'm going to ask you

433
00:25:36,205 --> 00:25:37,645
Speaker 1: about relationships in a minute.

434
00:25:37,845 --> 00:25:42,525
Speaker 2: It depends on the level of dependence that they have

435
00:25:43,005 --> 00:25:46,325
Speaker 2: from you, meaning it depends how tightly they feel you

436
00:25:46,365 --> 00:25:49,125
Speaker 2: are bound in. Once they feel you have nowhere to go,

437
00:25:49,805 --> 00:25:51,085
Speaker 2: then they don't bother anymore.

438
00:25:51,125 --> 00:25:53,925
Speaker 1: How do they create that situation where you have nowhere

439
00:25:53,925 --> 00:25:54,165
Speaker 1: to go?

440
00:25:54,245 --> 00:25:56,605
Speaker 2: Well, they get the job for starters, So one way

441
00:25:56,725 --> 00:25:58,365
Speaker 2: is to get the job to be your boss. And

442
00:25:58,365 --> 00:26:01,285
Speaker 2: then once they're your boss, then they work on destroying

443
00:26:01,285 --> 00:26:03,565
Speaker 2: trust in the workplace, so destroying the trust of the

444
00:26:03,565 --> 00:26:07,285
Speaker 2: people who are underneath them, so not trust in them,

445
00:26:07,365 --> 00:26:10,125
Speaker 2: but trust in each other. So they'll tell this person

446
00:26:10,205 --> 00:26:12,285
Speaker 2: a story. They'll tell that person a story. They'll tell

447
00:26:12,285 --> 00:26:13,165
Speaker 2: that person a story.

448
00:26:13,245 --> 00:26:16,285
Speaker 1: Yes, tell this person that the other person doesn't rate

449
00:26:16,365 --> 00:26:18,485
Speaker 1: them very highly, and they tell the other person that

450
00:26:18,565 --> 00:26:21,325
Speaker 1: this person thinks they're no good and.

451
00:26:21,405 --> 00:26:23,405
Speaker 2: It won't even be as obvious as that. Sometimes they'll

452
00:26:23,485 --> 00:26:26,685
Speaker 2: rotate favoritism, so that's a favorite tactic, so that there'll

453
00:26:26,685 --> 00:26:29,205
Speaker 2: be you know, there'll be a golden haired child of

454
00:26:29,245 --> 00:26:33,445
Speaker 2: the month, and everyone else you know is either ignored

455
00:26:33,565 --> 00:26:37,165
Speaker 2: or evil, but that'll get rotated around. They'll do public

456
00:26:37,165 --> 00:26:40,245
Speaker 2: executions is a term I use for it, meaning you know,

457
00:26:40,285 --> 00:26:43,445
Speaker 2: they'll publicly demean someone in a meeting or whatever in

458
00:26:43,445 --> 00:26:45,725
Speaker 2: front of everybody else. Everybody else will know that it's

459
00:26:45,765 --> 00:26:47,885
Speaker 2: wrong and shouldn't happen, but they'll keep their head down

460
00:26:48,085 --> 00:26:50,685
Speaker 2: because they don't want it to be them. So it's

461
00:26:50,765 --> 00:26:54,045
Speaker 2: that kind of gamesmanship that's going on. But to the

462
00:26:54,045 --> 00:26:58,525
Speaker 2: people above them in the organization, they are absolutely fabulous,

463
00:26:59,245 --> 00:27:01,285
Speaker 2: you know, the best person they've ever hired. They will

464
00:27:01,325 --> 00:27:02,605
Speaker 2: maintain the facade for.

465
00:27:02,565 --> 00:27:04,645
Speaker 1: Those people, so they manage up very well.

466
00:27:04,565 --> 00:27:07,445
Speaker 2: Manage up very very well, and kick down.

467
00:27:08,965 --> 00:27:11,285
Speaker 1: So how is a psychopath in the workplace different to

468
00:27:11,285 --> 00:27:13,685
Speaker 1: a workplace bully or is that just another name for

469
00:27:13,765 --> 00:27:16,765
Speaker 1: some psychopaths? I think they behave you can be interpreted.

470
00:27:16,845 --> 00:27:19,405
Speaker 2: I think most workplace bullies, or at least the worst ones,

471
00:27:19,725 --> 00:27:23,605
Speaker 2: are definitely psychopaths. And there is a quantitative difference, and

472
00:27:23,645 --> 00:27:26,685
Speaker 2: it has been done in the research. Your average workplace bully,

473
00:27:26,725 --> 00:27:29,125
Speaker 2: just a bad manager, just you know, it's a terrible manager,

474
00:27:29,205 --> 00:27:33,085
Speaker 2: is going to bully their workforce once a month on average,

475
00:27:33,165 --> 00:27:35,645
Speaker 2: so ten to twelve times a year. A psychopath will

476
00:27:35,645 --> 00:27:38,125
Speaker 2: do it two three times a week. So it is

477
00:27:38,165 --> 00:27:42,405
Speaker 2: a significant difference in scale and that goes to show well,

478
00:27:42,405 --> 00:27:45,725
Speaker 2: you can just be horrible and not be a psychopath,

479
00:27:45,965 --> 00:27:49,125
Speaker 2: but it's frequency that will be the determinant.

480
00:27:49,925 --> 00:27:53,645
Speaker 1: You know, you speaking, Just my eyes are widening, as

481
00:27:53,685 --> 00:27:56,605
Speaker 1: I'm sure many people have when you've talked to them

482
00:27:56,605 --> 00:28:00,765
Speaker 1: because you go, oh my god, that guy or that girl,

483
00:28:01,845 --> 00:28:03,965
Speaker 1: And I wanted to ask you about that. How many

484
00:28:04,005 --> 00:28:06,965
Speaker 1: psychopaths are men and how many women?

485
00:28:07,485 --> 00:28:09,965
Speaker 2: If you had asked most of the research is that

486
00:28:10,045 --> 00:28:12,085
Speaker 2: question ten years ago, they would have said, it's almost

487
00:28:12,205 --> 00:28:16,165
Speaker 2: entirely men. The research has moved a long way from

488
00:28:16,165 --> 00:28:19,005
Speaker 2: there now. The reason is because most of the studies

489
00:28:19,045 --> 00:28:21,245
Speaker 2: done up to that point were done on male prisoners,

490
00:28:21,885 --> 00:28:25,325
Speaker 2: so of course it was almost entirely men and almost

491
00:28:25,405 --> 00:28:28,165
Speaker 2: entirely criminal. But the research has really moved a lot

492
00:28:28,205 --> 00:28:30,565
Speaker 2: further in the last few years, and you're talking now

493
00:28:30,605 --> 00:28:34,845
Speaker 2: about broad population research and women's prisoner's research, and it's

494
00:28:34,845 --> 00:28:36,765
Speaker 2: pretty much coming to the conclusion that there isn't a

495
00:28:36,805 --> 00:28:39,765
Speaker 2: gender bias. So there are just as many female psychopaths

496
00:28:39,805 --> 00:28:40,445
Speaker 2: as male psycle.

497
00:28:40,645 --> 00:28:43,245
Speaker 1: I can think of a couple. So you suspect you've

498
00:28:43,285 --> 00:28:46,765
Speaker 1: got a psychopath in your midst he or she might

499
00:28:46,805 --> 00:28:48,645
Speaker 1: be your boss. How do you deal with it?

500
00:28:49,405 --> 00:28:52,845
Speaker 2: If they are your boss, then you are probably in

501
00:28:52,845 --> 00:28:57,405
Speaker 2: a workplace where you've gone from trusting and enjoying working

502
00:28:57,485 --> 00:28:59,685
Speaker 2: with the people around you to not knowing who you

503
00:28:59,725 --> 00:29:00,205
Speaker 2: can trust.

504
00:29:01,045 --> 00:29:02,605
Speaker 1: You will have got so they like to throw everyone

505
00:29:02,605 --> 00:29:03,125
Speaker 1: off balance.

506
00:29:03,285 --> 00:29:08,045
Speaker 2: Absolutely everyone is. The cloud of emotional confusion is what

507
00:29:08,165 --> 00:29:10,405
Speaker 2: they use as cover for they are trying to achieve.

508
00:29:11,365 --> 00:29:15,125
Speaker 2: And so you'll be experiencing a significant change in your

509
00:29:15,125 --> 00:29:18,285
Speaker 2: workplace where suddenly people you thought you could trust you're

510
00:29:18,285 --> 00:29:20,205
Speaker 2: not sure you can. You certainly can't talk to them

511
00:29:20,205 --> 00:29:23,245
Speaker 2: about the psychopath because you're never not quite sure whether

512
00:29:23,325 --> 00:29:25,845
Speaker 2: they are on the inside or the or not, and

513
00:29:25,885 --> 00:29:28,405
Speaker 2: whether what you're saying might get relayed back to them,

514
00:29:28,445 --> 00:29:31,485
Speaker 2: and then you'll suffer punishment. So you're in a world

515
00:29:31,565 --> 00:29:36,325
Speaker 2: of pain in that situation. Really, the only solution, and

516
00:29:36,565 --> 00:29:39,365
Speaker 2: I really hate saying this, but it is true, is

517
00:29:39,525 --> 00:29:42,965
Speaker 2: you've got a plan to leave. But you can't just

518
00:29:43,085 --> 00:29:46,325
Speaker 2: cut and run, because just cutting and running will probably

519
00:29:46,365 --> 00:29:50,205
Speaker 2: cause you significant damage. The psychopath will probably treat that

520
00:29:50,325 --> 00:29:54,285
Speaker 2: as some sort of an insult which requires revenge and punishment.

521
00:29:57,885 --> 00:30:00,805
Speaker 2: You may suffer financial damage for it, They may sue you.

522
00:30:00,805 --> 00:30:02,765
Speaker 2: You know, they're quite good at doing that sort of

523
00:30:02,805 --> 00:30:06,685
Speaker 2: thing with the resources of an organization behind them, So

524
00:30:06,725 --> 00:30:10,245
Speaker 2: you can't do that. What you can do, though, is

525
00:30:10,925 --> 00:30:13,845
Speaker 2: plan and do a few other things while you're at work,

526
00:30:13,885 --> 00:30:17,405
Speaker 2: So keep applying for the jobs you want. But at

527
00:30:17,445 --> 00:30:20,285
Speaker 2: work you have to be the ideal worker, and I

528
00:30:20,365 --> 00:30:22,725
Speaker 2: mean almost robotic, which is you don't interact with the

529
00:30:22,725 --> 00:30:26,605
Speaker 2: psychopath unless you have to. When you do, you repress

530
00:30:26,685 --> 00:30:30,085
Speaker 2: all emotional responses. They will try their very hardest to

531
00:30:30,165 --> 00:30:33,245
Speaker 2: get you to respond emotionally to things they say, and

532
00:30:33,405 --> 00:30:35,445
Speaker 2: they will be wanting to do that because they want

533
00:30:35,485 --> 00:30:38,925
Speaker 2: to use your response. If you go crazy in a

534
00:30:38,965 --> 00:30:43,245
Speaker 2: meeting because they say something that is seemingly innocuous, then

535
00:30:43,285 --> 00:30:49,005
Speaker 2: you're the nutbag and they will use that. Be honest

536
00:30:49,165 --> 00:30:54,125
Speaker 2: at all times, absolutely scrupulously honest. They will try to

537
00:30:54,165 --> 00:30:56,885
Speaker 2: get you to be dishonest. Let you fudge your expense

538
00:30:56,925 --> 00:30:58,965
Speaker 2: report or something like that. Oh it's all right, you know,

539
00:30:59,045 --> 00:31:01,965
Speaker 2: I know that was mostly a business launch. You can

540
00:31:02,005 --> 00:31:04,605
Speaker 2: claim that. As soon as you do something like that,

541
00:31:04,925 --> 00:31:09,525
Speaker 2: you give them a lever against you, because immediately if

542
00:31:09,565 --> 00:31:12,565
Speaker 2: that comes around and bites, they can say I didn't

543
00:31:12,605 --> 00:31:14,805
Speaker 2: know that they were doing that. I had no idea.

544
00:31:15,285 --> 00:31:17,125
Speaker 2: You know, what a terrible person. We must get rid

545
00:31:17,125 --> 00:31:23,885
Speaker 2: of them. So be scrupulously honest, be cordial, polite, show

546
00:31:23,965 --> 00:31:25,325
Speaker 2: no emotions.

547
00:31:24,765 --> 00:31:27,125
Speaker 1: Whatsoever as you try to get the hell out of it.

548
00:31:27,645 --> 00:31:29,685
Speaker 2: As you try to get out of there. Take notes

549
00:31:29,725 --> 00:31:33,685
Speaker 2: of everything. Do a James Comy take notes of every

550
00:31:33,725 --> 00:31:39,085
Speaker 2: meeting you have so that the lies are recorded. One

551
00:31:39,125 --> 00:31:42,085
Speaker 2: of the things about psychopaths is that they have no

552
00:31:42,165 --> 00:31:47,565
Speaker 2: particular attachment to the truth. To an mpath, the truth

553
00:31:47,645 --> 00:31:49,725
Speaker 2: is kind of a core message. Might not always stick

554
00:31:49,765 --> 00:31:51,205
Speaker 2: to it, but it's kind of a core thing that

555
00:31:51,245 --> 00:31:54,485
Speaker 2: we keep coming back to. Psychopaths don't have that at all.

556
00:31:54,685 --> 00:31:56,965
Speaker 2: The truth is whatever needs to be said at the

557
00:31:57,005 --> 00:31:59,565
Speaker 2: moment to get what they need to get, and they

558
00:31:59,565 --> 00:32:01,725
Speaker 2: don't care that it's different to what they said yesterday.

559
00:32:03,245 --> 00:32:04,805
Speaker 2: They'll be able to explain their way out of it.

560
00:32:04,885 --> 00:32:10,365
Speaker 2: Plausible deniability is built in second nature. Stating the complete

561
00:32:10,365 --> 00:32:12,765
Speaker 2: opposite of what they said yesterday, and they'll say it

562
00:32:12,805 --> 00:32:15,845
Speaker 2: with such confidence that you'll believe, well, maybe I'm the

563
00:32:15,845 --> 00:32:18,445
Speaker 2: one that's mad, but I'm pretty sure he said the

564
00:32:18,445 --> 00:32:21,925
Speaker 2: opposite to that yesterday. Writing it down gives you a

565
00:32:22,005 --> 00:32:25,805
Speaker 2: very clear record of what's being said. Confirming all instructions

566
00:32:25,805 --> 00:32:28,885
Speaker 2: in writing is another defense tactic you have to use,

567
00:32:28,965 --> 00:32:32,285
Speaker 2: which is psychopath tells you to move dirt from pila

568
00:32:32,405 --> 00:32:35,125
Speaker 2: to pile B, you confirm in writing that that's what

569
00:32:35,125 --> 00:32:40,165
Speaker 2: you've been asked to do, no sarcasm, no emotion, no

570
00:32:40,365 --> 00:32:43,885
Speaker 2: questioning of their authority or power, simply confirming the instruction

571
00:32:43,965 --> 00:32:44,405
Speaker 2: you've been so.

572
00:32:44,565 --> 00:32:45,485
Speaker 1: Been quite submissive.

573
00:32:45,605 --> 00:32:48,565
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And then one little thing that I guess the

574
00:32:48,645 --> 00:32:53,405
Speaker 2: cream on the cake is flatter them. They are extraordinarily

575
00:32:53,445 --> 00:32:56,965
Speaker 2: prone to flattery, even obvious flattery that you might consider

576
00:32:57,205 --> 00:33:00,725
Speaker 2: way over the top obvious, they will think is perfectly realistic.

577
00:33:00,805 --> 00:33:03,205
Speaker 2: They do think they're the smartest, best person in the world,

578
00:33:03,485 --> 00:33:06,805
Speaker 2: So occasionally telling them that will keep you on their.

579
00:33:06,725 --> 00:33:08,645
Speaker 1: Good side as you try to get the hell out.

580
00:33:08,685 --> 00:33:09,085
Speaker 2: That's right.

581
00:33:09,645 --> 00:33:11,245
Speaker 1: What are some of the other signs that there is

582
00:33:11,285 --> 00:33:15,485
Speaker 1: a psychopath in your midst You write about process in Micromanager.

583
00:33:15,645 --> 00:33:18,165
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So. One of the things that psychopaths tend

584
00:33:18,165 --> 00:33:21,365
Speaker 2: to do in a workplace pretty well straight away is

585
00:33:21,525 --> 00:33:25,365
Speaker 2: that they obsess over process. So they come in and

586
00:33:25,445 --> 00:33:30,165
Speaker 2: they're inventing new processes, new reporting schemes, everything has to

587
00:33:30,205 --> 00:33:32,925
Speaker 2: be done in triplicate. By the time they're done, you're

588
00:33:32,925 --> 00:33:35,725
Speaker 2: almost spending more time reporting to them than you are

589
00:33:35,765 --> 00:33:37,845
Speaker 2: doing your job. And to people who are good at

590
00:33:37,885 --> 00:33:41,645
Speaker 2: their job, that is an extraordinarily frustrating experience because they're

591
00:33:41,725 --> 00:33:44,245
Speaker 2: used to management that trusts them, lets them get on

592
00:33:44,285 --> 00:33:46,125
Speaker 2: with it, and only is there if they need reference

593
00:33:46,245 --> 00:33:48,805
Speaker 2: or need help with something. Psychopaths don't work that way.

594
00:33:49,045 --> 00:33:51,485
Speaker 2: They believe we are nothing better than barnyard animals, and

595
00:33:51,525 --> 00:33:54,445
Speaker 2: we need very precise instruction or we will go off

596
00:33:54,445 --> 00:33:57,045
Speaker 2: the rails. And we also need to be carefully monitored

597
00:33:57,045 --> 00:34:00,445
Speaker 2: because we are probably stealing from them or diverting resources

598
00:34:00,445 --> 00:34:01,165
Speaker 2: away from them.

599
00:34:01,405 --> 00:34:05,645
Speaker 1: So that's why they do it absolutely. And look, when

600
00:34:05,685 --> 00:34:07,045
Speaker 1: you come into a new job, and if you're a

601
00:34:07,085 --> 00:34:10,445
Speaker 1: new manager, you don't want everyone to be dying nicing

602
00:34:10,485 --> 00:34:14,645
Speaker 1: psychopaths everywhere because some of these things aren't just what

603
00:34:14,805 --> 00:34:17,485
Speaker 1: new managers do, right, So you come in and you say, hey,

604
00:34:17,565 --> 00:34:19,485
Speaker 1: maybe we should try doing it this way. And then

605
00:34:19,485 --> 00:34:22,205
Speaker 1: when someone does have a new manager, it can be

606
00:34:22,285 --> 00:34:26,045
Speaker 1: quite disruptive and people can feel unsettled enough balance, But

607
00:34:26,285 --> 00:34:29,645
Speaker 1: you're saying that that's different to when there's a psychopath

608
00:34:29,725 --> 00:34:32,845
Speaker 1: because of how long it lasts, how intense.

609
00:34:32,485 --> 00:34:35,925
Speaker 2: It is, and it gets regular and worse, and.

610
00:34:37,005 --> 00:34:39,725
Speaker 1: So there are more processes and more micromatag yes.

611
00:34:39,565 --> 00:34:41,565
Speaker 2: And it never seems to end. Just as when you

612
00:34:41,565 --> 00:34:43,205
Speaker 2: think that they've gone as far as they possibly can,

613
00:34:43,245 --> 00:34:46,085
Speaker 2: they come up with something else. They have no strategic

614
00:34:46,125 --> 00:34:50,245
Speaker 2: focus at all. So a normal manager will say, oh,

615
00:34:50,285 --> 00:34:54,205
Speaker 2: how are we taking this business forward? They'll direct somebody

616
00:34:54,245 --> 00:34:57,885
Speaker 2: to do some work on that, provide some recommendations. It

617
00:34:57,965 --> 00:35:00,165
Speaker 2: will be discussed, there'll be a consensus decision, et cetera.

618
00:35:00,285 --> 00:35:02,645
Speaker 2: Psychopaths don't work like that. They'll be in a meeting,

619
00:35:02,805 --> 00:35:04,725
Speaker 2: they'll have an idea that will be the plan.

620
00:35:05,525 --> 00:35:08,525
Speaker 1: But that's me. But that's just a bad manager. Like

621
00:35:08,565 --> 00:35:10,885
Speaker 1: I think, I'm just sometimes a bad manager. And sometimes

622
00:35:10,885 --> 00:35:13,405
Speaker 1: I'll do that thing of our micromanage. But as soon

623
00:35:13,405 --> 00:35:15,965
Speaker 1: as I feel like people, I'll only micromanager if I

624
00:35:15,965 --> 00:35:18,445
Speaker 1: feel like things aren't right. But as soon as I

625
00:35:18,485 --> 00:35:20,885
Speaker 1: feel like I can trust that things are right, I'm

626
00:35:20,925 --> 00:35:21,405
Speaker 1: out of there.

627
00:35:21,525 --> 00:35:24,165
Speaker 2: Yeah, that doesn't happen, So that means I'm.

628
00:35:24,005 --> 00:35:24,765
Speaker 1: Not a psychopath.

629
00:35:24,925 --> 00:35:27,285
Speaker 2: I hope though, But is that true?

630
00:35:27,325 --> 00:35:29,005
Speaker 1: So the fact that I get out of there means

631
00:35:29,005 --> 00:35:30,165
Speaker 1: that I'm probably a psychopath.

632
00:35:30,205 --> 00:35:32,845
Speaker 2: Won't be able to do that, won't be able to

633
00:35:32,845 --> 00:35:33,645
Speaker 2: walk away from it.

634
00:35:34,685 --> 00:35:37,405
Speaker 1: Right, But sometimes they do just have an idea and

635
00:35:37,445 --> 00:35:40,365
Speaker 1: then just well, they are bad managers. Bad managers aren't

636
00:35:40,405 --> 00:35:41,245
Speaker 1: psycho rece either.

637
00:35:41,725 --> 00:35:44,445
Speaker 2: Any of the things I've described you could probably attribute

638
00:35:44,485 --> 00:35:47,085
Speaker 2: to a bad manager. It's having all of them together

639
00:35:47,845 --> 00:35:50,205
Speaker 2: and the effect it has on the workplace, which is

640
00:35:51,205 --> 00:35:54,405
Speaker 2: the complete and total destruction of trust in the workplace.

641
00:35:54,845 --> 00:35:58,445
Speaker 2: That is the absolute, definitive symptom that there is one

642
00:35:58,485 --> 00:36:03,445
Speaker 2: there somewhere, Because workplaces are communities. At the end of

643
00:36:03,445 --> 00:36:06,965
Speaker 2: the day, they're a group of people putting the community

644
00:36:07,005 --> 00:36:11,965
Speaker 2: or the workplace's benefit or or good outcomes above their own.

645
00:36:12,805 --> 00:36:14,525
Speaker 2: You know, they're doing it for pay, So it's not

646
00:36:14,565 --> 00:36:18,325
Speaker 2: like it's altruism, but it's close. It is putting the

647
00:36:18,605 --> 00:36:21,525
Speaker 2: benefit of the community above and ahead of the benefit

648
00:36:21,525 --> 00:36:24,325
Speaker 2: of the individual. And as soon as that's not happening

649
00:36:24,365 --> 00:36:27,285
Speaker 2: in a workplace, it's usually because there's a psychopath there.

650
00:36:27,325 --> 00:36:30,565
Speaker 2: As soon as people are just they're looking out for themselves,

651
00:36:30,965 --> 00:36:35,885
Speaker 2: defending themselves, trusting nobody, cooperating not at all, And as

652
00:36:35,885 --> 00:36:38,765
Speaker 2: soon as that's everybody in a workplace doing that, then

653
00:36:38,805 --> 00:36:40,205
Speaker 2: you know there's a psychopath there.

654
00:36:40,965 --> 00:36:43,005
Speaker 1: Okay, So now I want to talk about psychopaths in

655
00:36:43,085 --> 00:36:47,285
Speaker 1: relationships because I, like many women, have been in an

656
00:36:47,285 --> 00:36:51,445
Speaker 1: emotionally abusive relationship. But I don't think he was a psychopath.

657
00:36:51,565 --> 00:36:57,845
Speaker 1: So tell me how psychopaths behave in relating romantic relationships, it's.

658
00:36:57,805 --> 00:37:00,485
Speaker 2: Very similar to what I've described work. They don't change

659
00:37:00,565 --> 00:37:02,925
Speaker 2: because they're at home versus when at works. So they're

660
00:37:02,965 --> 00:37:08,125
Speaker 2: all about control. They're all about micromanagement, they're all about reporting.

661
00:37:08,245 --> 00:37:11,725
Speaker 2: They don't trust their part at all. They are people

662
00:37:11,765 --> 00:37:15,165
Speaker 2: who need to be controlled at all times and are

663
00:37:15,565 --> 00:37:18,845
Speaker 2: in their mind a possession something who is there to

664
00:37:18,925 --> 00:37:22,125
Speaker 2: serve them. And as soon as they stop being useful

665
00:37:22,165 --> 00:37:25,285
Speaker 2: as a possession or a source of money or power,

666
00:37:25,925 --> 00:37:29,325
Speaker 2: they don't need them anymore, and either they will just

667
00:37:29,365 --> 00:37:33,325
Speaker 2: walk away or they will abuse them simply because there's

668
00:37:33,365 --> 00:37:34,085
Speaker 2: no reason not to.

669
00:37:34,565 --> 00:37:37,685
Speaker 1: If I'm in a relationship with a psychopath, or I

670
00:37:37,725 --> 00:37:42,725
Speaker 1: suspect I am, what might I notice is happening.

671
00:37:43,805 --> 00:37:46,045
Speaker 2: Well, it'll be really clear in the relationship.

672
00:37:46,085 --> 00:37:47,645
Speaker 1: They'll probably be very charming at first one.

673
00:37:47,765 --> 00:37:52,125
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, they will be probably the fastest, most accelerated

674
00:37:52,165 --> 00:37:56,325
Speaker 2: relationship you've ever had in that you will move very

675
00:37:56,445 --> 00:38:01,405
Speaker 2: very fast. They will seem absolutely perfect upfront. They will

676
00:38:01,445 --> 00:38:04,285
Speaker 2: tell you exactly what you want to hear. They will

677
00:38:04,325 --> 00:38:07,285
Speaker 2: be exactly what you want to be. They will be

678
00:38:07,525 --> 00:38:10,245
Speaker 2: the best lover you've ever had. The sharing I was

679
00:38:10,245 --> 00:38:10,525
Speaker 2: going to.

680
00:38:10,445 --> 00:38:12,125
Speaker 1: Say they must get a lot of sex because if

681
00:38:12,165 --> 00:38:13,965
Speaker 1: they can like turn it on, and you also say

682
00:38:13,965 --> 00:38:15,565
Speaker 1: that they're more likely to be the ones that will

683
00:38:15,605 --> 00:38:18,445
Speaker 1: approach the woman that intimidates other men.

684
00:38:18,765 --> 00:38:24,165
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, Why is that a challenge? Why not, you know,

685
00:38:24,285 --> 00:38:27,445
Speaker 2: go for that. They believe that they are entitled to

686
00:38:27,525 --> 00:38:31,805
Speaker 2: the best of everything, so why not choose the best

687
00:38:31,845 --> 00:38:35,645
Speaker 2: looking or most appealing possession in the room.

688
00:38:35,805 --> 00:38:38,765
Speaker 1: And they won't always be the captain of the football

689
00:38:38,805 --> 00:38:41,605
Speaker 1: team and the highest you know guy, and the you know,

690
00:38:42,125 --> 00:38:44,485
Speaker 1: socially upwardly mobile or will they like.

691
00:38:44,605 --> 00:38:47,725
Speaker 2: They'll pretend to be if that's what you want to hear, okay,

692
00:38:48,045 --> 00:38:48,325
Speaker 2: And they.

693
00:38:48,245 --> 00:38:50,205
Speaker 1: Won't necessarily be the most good looking person.

694
00:38:51,245 --> 00:38:55,085
Speaker 2: Well, people often say psychopaths are especially good looking. But

695
00:38:55,125 --> 00:38:59,205
Speaker 2: when But when studies are done on this with objective testing,

696
00:38:59,205 --> 00:39:02,245
Speaker 2: where people don't know ahead and aren't actually speaking to

697
00:39:02,285 --> 00:39:04,445
Speaker 2: the person you know, they're looking at a photo, there

698
00:39:04,445 --> 00:39:07,805
Speaker 2: doesn't appear to be any particular bias towards psychopaths. But

699
00:39:08,125 --> 00:39:10,725
Speaker 2: I think it's it's once again, if they're telling you

700
00:39:10,765 --> 00:39:12,525
Speaker 2: what you want to hear, maybe they look better.

701
00:39:12,605 --> 00:39:15,325
Speaker 1: So it's all happening very fast. I'm in love, he says,

702
00:39:15,325 --> 00:39:17,365
Speaker 1: he's in love, he wants to introduce me to his family.

703
00:39:17,445 --> 00:39:21,885
Speaker 1: He's talking about our future. It's all happening very very fast.

704
00:39:21,925 --> 00:39:23,285
Speaker 1: And then what happens.

705
00:39:24,085 --> 00:39:27,285
Speaker 2: Once you're in, once you're committed, once you're hooked into

706
00:39:27,325 --> 00:39:30,445
Speaker 2: the relationship, and you can't leave because you've.

707
00:39:30,285 --> 00:39:32,525
Speaker 1: Moved in, you're pregnant, you've got married.

708
00:39:32,485 --> 00:39:36,485
Speaker 2: Ed banking accounts, shared possessions. He's probably moved in or

709
00:39:36,485 --> 00:39:40,045
Speaker 2: she's probably moved into your home. You will be providing

710
00:39:40,125 --> 00:39:43,965
Speaker 2: most of the possessions and resources, even though the story

711
00:39:44,045 --> 00:39:47,125
Speaker 2: so far might well have been that they had all

712
00:39:47,165 --> 00:39:50,365
Speaker 2: sorts of resources available. There'll be some unfortunate event which

713
00:39:50,405 --> 00:39:54,325
Speaker 2: has drained them away in some way. Yes, but to

714
00:39:54,485 --> 00:39:56,085
Speaker 2: help them get back on their feet, they'll be moving

715
00:39:56,085 --> 00:39:58,325
Speaker 2: in with you, using your car, You'll be paying for dinner,

716
00:39:58,365 --> 00:40:03,165
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. That once that's happened, then they

717
00:40:03,205 --> 00:40:08,045
Speaker 2: have no particular need to maintain the facade unless you

718
00:40:08,085 --> 00:40:14,725
Speaker 2: look like you're going to walk. So if you detect

719
00:40:14,725 --> 00:40:17,365
Speaker 2: a change, or they drop the facade, or you know,

720
00:40:17,685 --> 00:40:20,965
Speaker 2: and you are a particularly strong willed individual who doesn't

721
00:40:21,005 --> 00:40:24,405
Speaker 2: care and is just going to say, nope, I'm out

722
00:40:24,405 --> 00:40:27,125
Speaker 2: of here, then they'll either bring it back up and

723
00:40:27,205 --> 00:40:29,125
Speaker 2: love bomb you, or they might go the other way

724
00:40:29,405 --> 00:40:30,845
Speaker 2: and use force to keep you there.

725
00:40:33,085 --> 00:40:36,485
Speaker 1: Wow, So what do you do? How do you get away?

726
00:40:37,925 --> 00:40:40,325
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, there are not a lot of good answers for this,

727
00:40:41,805 --> 00:40:44,445
Speaker 2: particularly if you're in very deep that is, have children

728
00:40:44,565 --> 00:40:48,485
Speaker 2: with them, money with them, those sorts of things where

729
00:40:48,565 --> 00:40:51,885
Speaker 2: you are entangled with them. It is very, very difficult,

730
00:40:52,365 --> 00:40:54,645
Speaker 2: and they will use the fact that you are emotionally

731
00:40:54,685 --> 00:40:57,685
Speaker 2: attached to the children and they are not against you,

732
00:40:58,325 --> 00:41:02,205
Speaker 2: so you know they will use children and possessions as

733
00:41:02,325 --> 00:41:04,725
Speaker 2: tools to manipulate you with and to hold you and

734
00:41:04,725 --> 00:41:07,885
Speaker 2: bind you into the relationship. So it is extraordinarily difficult

735
00:41:07,925 --> 00:41:13,045
Speaker 2: to get away. Probably the only real advice you that

736
00:41:13,205 --> 00:41:17,885
Speaker 2: is useful is work slowly towards disentangling yourself. Not that

737
00:41:17,965 --> 00:41:22,885
Speaker 2: you can do that with children, but everything else. Disentangling yourself,

738
00:41:22,965 --> 00:41:26,725
Speaker 2: keeping trying to get separated and.

739
00:41:27,245 --> 00:41:30,645
Speaker 1: Squirrel away opening up another bank.

740
00:41:30,485 --> 00:41:33,005
Speaker 2: Account, just doing it.

741
00:41:32,765 --> 00:41:34,685
Speaker 1: Slowly and imperceptibly, that's right.

742
00:41:34,765 --> 00:41:36,725
Speaker 2: And maintaining the same rules that I said about being

743
00:41:36,725 --> 00:41:41,725
Speaker 2: in the office, which is maintain compliance, do not react emotionally,

744
00:41:42,125 --> 00:41:47,325
Speaker 2: et cetera. But ultimately with the plan of getting out

745
00:41:47,325 --> 00:41:48,605
Speaker 2: of there and never coming back.

746
00:41:49,765 --> 00:41:52,125
Speaker 1: But look, because psychopaths can't change.

747
00:41:52,285 --> 00:41:55,565
Speaker 2: They can't, they can't, they won't change, they and they

748
00:41:55,605 --> 00:41:58,445
Speaker 2: don't feel like even if they could, they wouldn't because

749
00:41:58,485 --> 00:42:01,005
Speaker 2: they believe they're the better version of humans and were

750
00:42:01,085 --> 00:42:05,765
Speaker 2: the emotionally crippled cheaple. So they wouldn't change even if

751
00:42:05,805 --> 00:42:06,125
Speaker 2: they could.

752
00:42:06,565 --> 00:42:09,205
Speaker 1: What would a psychopath do if they caught you square

753
00:42:09,525 --> 00:42:10,085
Speaker 1: money away?

754
00:42:10,485 --> 00:42:12,885
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the reason to leave them. That's the risk,

755
00:42:13,045 --> 00:42:18,525
Speaker 2: both in the workplace and at home, is don't get caught,

756
00:42:18,845 --> 00:42:21,285
Speaker 2: don't get court applying for other jobs, don't get caught

757
00:42:21,525 --> 00:42:24,965
Speaker 2: squirrelling money away, don't get caught having an exit plan.

758
00:42:25,125 --> 00:42:31,565
Speaker 2: Because they are extraordinarily vengeful, extraordinarily vengeful, and they really

759
00:42:31,605 --> 00:42:37,085
Speaker 2: have no breaks on that, nothing to stop them exacting revenge. Now,

760
00:42:37,205 --> 00:42:40,205
Speaker 2: if they're particularly if they have access to lots of

761
00:42:40,245 --> 00:42:42,885
Speaker 2: resources and money and someone, that might be legal revenge

762
00:42:43,005 --> 00:42:46,805
Speaker 2: or nasty rumors with other employers, or blackballing you in

763
00:42:46,805 --> 00:42:50,405
Speaker 2: the industry or whatever in a relationship, it might just

764
00:42:50,445 --> 00:42:50,925
Speaker 2: be hitting you.

765
00:42:54,485 --> 00:42:58,765
Speaker 1: Psychopaths more likely to be violent than not, do. They

766
00:42:58,845 --> 00:43:00,805
Speaker 1: just see that as one of their many tools, and

767
00:43:00,845 --> 00:43:04,285
Speaker 1: they don't differentiate it from anything else.

768
00:43:04,765 --> 00:43:09,685
Speaker 2: Yes, there's two things at play here. The first is

769
00:43:10,125 --> 00:43:15,005
Speaker 2: that they do experience emotion, volatile, high powered, intense emotion

770
00:43:15,325 --> 00:43:21,045
Speaker 2: that empaths will control with higher order thinking. Psychopaths don't control.

771
00:43:21,205 --> 00:43:24,725
Speaker 2: So if something is making them angry, and any insult

772
00:43:24,765 --> 00:43:28,565
Speaker 2: to their power is likely to make them angry. If

773
00:43:28,565 --> 00:43:34,245
Speaker 2: something makes them angry, then they will react instinctively with

774
00:43:34,325 --> 00:43:38,765
Speaker 2: anger with no ability to control it. Sometimes they do

775
00:43:38,805 --> 00:43:41,925
Speaker 2: that for show as a means of manipulating you. Sometimes

776
00:43:41,965 --> 00:43:45,565
Speaker 2: they really mean it. Either way, They're not going to

777
00:43:45,565 --> 00:43:46,685
Speaker 2: stop just because you're hurt.

778
00:43:48,765 --> 00:43:52,245
Speaker 1: You talk about two tests in the book. One is

779
00:43:52,285 --> 00:43:56,365
Speaker 1: the hair psycho Psychopathy. I never can say that. One

780
00:43:56,405 --> 00:43:58,565
Speaker 1: is the hair psychopathy checklist.

781
00:43:58,645 --> 00:44:05,965
Speaker 2: Yes, what's that? That's a checklist that was designed until

782
00:44:05,965 --> 00:44:07,805
Speaker 2: he designed He did it in the nineteen eighties and

783
00:44:07,805 --> 00:44:10,445
Speaker 2: he was doing it in prisons and its purpose was

784
00:44:10,485 --> 00:44:14,645
Speaker 2: to more accurately diagnose people who are psychopaths in the

785
00:44:14,645 --> 00:44:19,005
Speaker 2: prison population. The reason that he needed a checklist was

786
00:44:19,005 --> 00:44:22,965
Speaker 2: because up until that point, whether someone was a psychopath

787
00:44:23,085 --> 00:44:26,605
Speaker 2: or not depended on who was doing the interview. You know,

788
00:44:26,685 --> 00:44:31,245
Speaker 2: it really just depended how easily they were manipulated, etcetera. Etcetera.

789
00:44:31,325 --> 00:44:35,325
Speaker 2: And it was very fluffy. That test allowed people in

790
00:44:35,405 --> 00:44:38,925
Speaker 2: prisons all over the world to play apply the same

791
00:44:39,045 --> 00:44:42,925
Speaker 2: uniform criteria and come up with a score, and they said,

792
00:44:42,965 --> 00:44:46,165
Speaker 2: above this threshold score, you are dealing with a psychopath.

793
00:44:46,245 --> 00:44:48,645
Speaker 2: But it is a test which is designed to deal

794
00:44:48,685 --> 00:44:51,605
Speaker 2: with criminal psychopaths. So there's a lot on there that

795
00:44:51,765 --> 00:44:56,605
Speaker 2: is about criminality, so you know, juvenile delinquency, et cetera,

796
00:44:56,645 --> 00:44:57,085
Speaker 2: et cetera.

797
00:44:57,645 --> 00:44:59,565
Speaker 1: What was the test that was I thought it was

798
00:44:59,605 --> 00:45:01,685
Speaker 1: the hair one, but what was the one with the noise?

799
00:45:02,085 --> 00:45:04,845
Speaker 2: That test was actually a series of studies done to

800
00:45:05,045 --> 00:45:08,445
Speaker 2: measure fear in psychopaths, because one of the things that

801
00:45:08,525 --> 00:45:11,925
Speaker 2: people notice really early on was that psychopaths don't react

802
00:45:12,045 --> 00:45:15,685
Speaker 2: the same as everybody else to situations that would engender fear,

803
00:45:16,565 --> 00:45:20,805
Speaker 2: and they gained a reputation for being fearless. That's been

804
00:45:20,885 --> 00:45:23,165
Speaker 2: nuanced a lot. But those studies were done in the

805
00:45:23,725 --> 00:45:27,245
Speaker 2: eighties and nineties, and they were done on prison populations

806
00:45:27,285 --> 00:45:30,645
Speaker 2: where they would expose people who they had pretested. So

807
00:45:30,685 --> 00:45:34,365
Speaker 2: two groups people who were psychopaths using that test, who

808
00:45:34,405 --> 00:45:37,405
Speaker 2: were psychopaths, and others who were criminals but not psychopaths,

809
00:45:38,645 --> 00:45:40,885
Speaker 2: and they would tell them you are going to lie here.

810
00:45:40,885 --> 00:45:42,805
Speaker 2: We're going to count down from ten and at the

811
00:45:42,925 --> 00:45:45,965
Speaker 2: end there is going to be extremely loud noise. And

812
00:45:46,165 --> 00:45:48,325
Speaker 2: the first time they did it, and there was no anticipation,

813
00:45:48,405 --> 00:45:50,885
Speaker 2: no fear in the people. The noise was extremely loud.

814
00:45:50,925 --> 00:45:54,445
Speaker 2: It was really unpleasantly loud. And then they would do

815
00:45:54,485 --> 00:45:57,045
Speaker 2: it again and again and again and measure the levels

816
00:45:57,085 --> 00:46:01,325
Speaker 2: of anxiety in the groups. And what they found was

817
00:46:01,925 --> 00:46:05,925
Speaker 2: that nobody loved hearing the noise, but the people who

818
00:46:06,005 --> 00:46:11,045
Speaker 2: weren't psychopaths exhibited enormous anxiety the countdown because they knew

819
00:46:11,045 --> 00:46:14,165
Speaker 2: what was coming. I'm feel just thinking about it, and

820
00:46:14,205 --> 00:46:19,045
Speaker 2: they just showed real anxiety. The psychopaths showed no anxiety

821
00:46:19,205 --> 00:46:23,325
Speaker 2: at all. So from that they said, oh, they're fearless.

822
00:46:25,045 --> 00:46:28,125
Speaker 2: It's now clear that they're not fearless. They do experience

823
00:46:28,605 --> 00:46:31,245
Speaker 2: the same as we do. They just don't translate it

824
00:46:31,285 --> 00:46:35,965
Speaker 2: to anxiety. So they are afraid of just of danger,

825
00:46:36,125 --> 00:46:38,285
Speaker 2: just as much as anybody else is, but they don't

826
00:46:38,325 --> 00:46:39,085
Speaker 2: worry about it.

827
00:46:40,805 --> 00:46:44,965
Speaker 1: Okay, So I guess my last question for you, David

828
00:46:45,205 --> 00:46:47,925
Speaker 1: is what happens when psychopaths have children?

829
00:46:48,805 --> 00:46:51,845
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, to a psychopath, a child is a possitionion,

830
00:46:52,965 --> 00:46:55,925
Speaker 2: so like a pet is a possision, and as long

831
00:46:55,965 --> 00:46:59,445
Speaker 2: as it is a well behaved position, that's fine. As

832
00:46:59,445 --> 00:47:01,525
Speaker 2: soon as it's not a well behaved position, then it

833
00:47:01,525 --> 00:47:05,405
Speaker 2: can be discarded or brought back into line. So to

834
00:47:05,445 --> 00:47:10,565
Speaker 2: a psychopath, it's our child is nothing more than a

835
00:47:10,565 --> 00:47:13,285
Speaker 2: dog that needs to be disciplined because it's not performing

836
00:47:13,405 --> 00:47:14,085
Speaker 2: as required.

837
00:47:14,165 --> 00:47:15,805
Speaker 1: So they have no feelings of love.

838
00:47:17,045 --> 00:47:19,925
Speaker 2: Love is a higher order feeling, so they can't experience love,

839
00:47:20,365 --> 00:47:25,605
Speaker 2: and so they have no sense of that joy. Well, no,

840
00:47:26,085 --> 00:47:32,045
Speaker 2: they can. They experience lust and sexual attraction, which are

841
00:47:32,085 --> 00:47:36,365
Speaker 2: the law order emotions, but they can't translate that into love.

842
00:47:36,405 --> 00:47:38,125
Speaker 2: They don't know what love is. They hear us talk

843
00:47:38,165 --> 00:47:40,925
Speaker 2: about it all the time, but they have no idea

844
00:47:40,965 --> 00:47:41,845
Speaker 2: what we're talking about.

845
00:47:42,445 --> 00:47:45,925
Speaker 1: So they have children why because they think they should.

846
00:47:46,805 --> 00:47:48,845
Speaker 2: Oh, there'll be lots of reasons. It might be part

847
00:47:48,845 --> 00:47:51,565
Speaker 2: of the entrapment. It might have been necessary to have

848
00:47:51,685 --> 00:47:55,165
Speaker 2: children because the person they were targeting wasn't going to

849
00:47:55,165 --> 00:47:57,885
Speaker 2: stay in the relationship unless children were produced.

850
00:47:58,205 --> 00:48:00,605
Speaker 1: But there will also be mothers that are psychopaths.

851
00:48:00,685 --> 00:48:04,685
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, same deal way around. Well, so, same deal.

852
00:48:04,725 --> 00:48:07,325
Speaker 2: It could be that the only way she can keep

853
00:48:08,005 --> 00:48:10,725
Speaker 2: the partner in the relationship is to provide him with children.

854
00:48:10,845 --> 00:48:15,485
Speaker 1: And will she or he always be abusive towards their children?

855
00:48:15,525 --> 00:48:17,845
Speaker 1: If you're a psychopath, will you always abuse your children,

856
00:48:17,845 --> 00:48:20,125
Speaker 1: either physically or mentally or emotionally.

857
00:48:20,405 --> 00:48:23,725
Speaker 2: Well, only if that's what's necessary to control them. At

858
00:48:23,725 --> 00:48:25,925
Speaker 2: the end of the day, the purpose is control, not

859
00:48:26,085 --> 00:48:28,725
Speaker 2: abuse per se. You know they're not abusing for the

860
00:48:28,725 --> 00:48:31,965
Speaker 2: fun of abusing. They're abusing to an end, which is

861
00:48:31,965 --> 00:48:35,085
Speaker 2: to control. If the possession can be controlled without abuse,

862
00:48:35,125 --> 00:48:36,725
Speaker 2: then it'll be controlled without abuse.

863
00:48:37,805 --> 00:48:41,485
Speaker 1: If the possession can be controlled. So as children get older,

864
00:48:42,005 --> 00:48:46,645
Speaker 1: what would be a sign that your parent is a psychopath?

865
00:48:46,845 --> 00:48:48,125
Speaker 1: I guess I wanted to ask you.

866
00:48:48,445 --> 00:48:52,005
Speaker 2: That kind of relationship where you have no real emotional

867
00:48:52,045 --> 00:48:55,445
Speaker 2: connection with them, that you see them projecting publicly a

868
00:48:55,565 --> 00:48:58,765
Speaker 2: very different face to what you see when you are

869
00:48:58,845 --> 00:49:02,445
Speaker 2: in private with them. And there's actually some very interesting

870
00:49:02,485 --> 00:49:05,325
Speaker 2: case studies been published by children of psychopaths, and I

871
00:49:05,365 --> 00:49:07,085
Speaker 2: go through a few of them in the book where

872
00:49:07,605 --> 00:49:11,285
Speaker 2: they talk about what that was like, which is, up

873
00:49:11,365 --> 00:49:13,645
Speaker 2: until about the age of thirteen, they noticed over and

874
00:49:13,685 --> 00:49:16,005
Speaker 2: over and over again that you know, dad or Mum

875
00:49:16,085 --> 00:49:20,685
Speaker 2: would project some completely different persona when their friends were

876
00:49:20,685 --> 00:49:23,045
Speaker 2: in the room or when they were in public to

877
00:49:23,165 --> 00:49:25,125
Speaker 2: when they were alone with them, and then it would,

878
00:49:25,285 --> 00:49:28,965
Speaker 2: you know, just all just go blank and bang, they're

879
00:49:29,005 --> 00:49:31,485
Speaker 2: just part of the furniture again. But when the friends

880
00:49:31,485 --> 00:49:32,005
Speaker 2: are their.

881
00:49:32,125 --> 00:49:34,965
Speaker 1: They would perform the parent because that's what they know

882
00:49:35,045 --> 00:49:37,045
Speaker 1: their friends need to should be seen exactly.

883
00:49:37,085 --> 00:49:40,485
Speaker 2: They would act like happy families and then bang, it

884
00:49:40,485 --> 00:49:42,125
Speaker 2: would just be shut off as soon as the person

885
00:49:42,205 --> 00:49:46,205
Speaker 2: left the room. So that's the kind of thing. And

886
00:49:46,325 --> 00:49:49,405
Speaker 2: kids growing up in that environment often many of them

887
00:49:49,445 --> 00:49:51,525
Speaker 2: in the case studies say they thought that was normal.

888
00:49:52,005 --> 00:49:56,365
Speaker 2: They thought that's what all parents did. And it's only

889
00:49:56,445 --> 00:49:59,765
Speaker 2: once they got out into sort of socializing with other

890
00:49:59,885 --> 00:50:02,485
Speaker 2: kids sort of in their teens and so on, they realized, wow,

891
00:50:02,605 --> 00:50:05,085
Speaker 2: you know what, not all parents are like this. Not

892
00:50:05,165 --> 00:50:09,805
Speaker 2: all people have this completely emotionally disconnected relationship with the

893
00:50:10,285 --> 00:50:11,325
Speaker 2: adults in their house.

894
00:50:12,685 --> 00:50:15,165
Speaker 1: David, your book is phenomenal. I can't recommend it highly

895
00:50:15,245 --> 00:50:18,925
Speaker 1: enough for anyone who is in a relationship with anyone,

896
00:50:19,485 --> 00:50:23,125
Speaker 1: people who have a job, who encounter people in any

897
00:50:23,125 --> 00:50:26,845
Speaker 1: aspect of life. Whether you think there's a psychopath in

898
00:50:26,885 --> 00:50:31,205
Speaker 1: your life or not, it is it's almost like an

899
00:50:31,245 --> 00:50:35,965
Speaker 1: immunization against encountering psychopaths in life, which we all will.

900
00:50:36,005 --> 00:50:37,845
Speaker 1: I mean, I can think of half a dozen that

901
00:50:37,885 --> 00:50:39,685
Speaker 1: I've encountered through my life.

902
00:50:39,805 --> 00:50:42,805
Speaker 2: Every wonder I've not spoken to a single person who

903
00:50:42,845 --> 00:50:45,525
Speaker 2: looks back at me blankly and says, got no idea

904
00:50:45,565 --> 00:50:47,685
Speaker 2: what you're talking about? Never meant anyone like that.

905
00:50:48,325 --> 00:50:52,965
Speaker 1: I'm sure people are listening with their eyes wide David,

906
00:50:52,965 --> 00:50:56,005
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Taming Toxic People is a study

907
00:50:56,045 --> 00:51:00,045
Speaker 1: on psychopaths. It is available now. Thanks for listening to

908
00:51:00,125 --> 00:51:03,165
Speaker 1: No Filter A lot to think about. Hey, you can

909
00:51:03,205 --> 00:51:06,205
Speaker 1: buy David's book Taming Toxic People and my book work

910
00:51:06,245 --> 00:51:10,325
Speaker 1: Strife Balance at Eyebooks at Apple dot Co, Forward Slash

911
00:51:10,525 --> 00:51:13,205
Speaker 1: MoMA Mia, and this is where you can also subscribe

912
00:51:13,485 --> 00:51:16,365
Speaker 1: to all our other shows in one place. You might

913
00:51:16,405 --> 00:51:18,565
Speaker 1: want to subscribe to Mama Mea Out Loud, which is

914
00:51:18,565 --> 00:51:22,005
Speaker 1: our flagship show, or Year One, which is our show

915
00:51:22,085 --> 00:51:26,445
Speaker 1: for everyone who has got you children in the first

916
00:51:26,525 --> 00:51:30,005
Speaker 1: year of their lives. We also have a podcast for

917
00:51:30,045 --> 00:51:33,965
Speaker 1: pregnant people called Hello Bump, and a podcast for families

918
00:51:34,085 --> 00:51:37,605
Speaker 1: called This Glorious Mess, and one of my personal favorites,

919
00:51:37,645 --> 00:51:41,245
Speaker 1: a podcast called The Well hosted by Rebecca Sparrow and

920
00:51:41,365 --> 00:51:44,165
Speaker 1: Robin Bailey, two women in their forties who talk about

921
00:51:44,205 --> 00:51:47,845
Speaker 1: all the ways to make your life better and easier

922
00:51:47,885 --> 00:51:50,405
Speaker 1: and faster. They are very funny and just two of

923
00:51:50,445 --> 00:51:54,005
Speaker 1: the most wise and witty people. If you want all

924
00:51:54,005 --> 00:51:57,205
Speaker 1: of our podcasts in one place, best you go download

925
00:51:57,245 --> 00:52:00,085
Speaker 1: Thema MEA Podcast app in the app store. It's pink,

926
00:52:00,605 --> 00:52:02,845
Speaker 1: and you don't have to remember any of the things

927
00:52:02,845 --> 00:52:04,725
Speaker 1: I've just told you, or where to find them or

928
00:52:04,725 --> 00:52:07,005
Speaker 1: what they're called. They are all in the Mama MEA

929
00:52:07,045 --> 00:52:10,845
Speaker 1: Podcast app. And if you and this episode of No Filter,

930
00:52:11,925 --> 00:52:16,125
Speaker 1: I have plenty more. We've recorded I think one hundred

931
00:52:16,125 --> 00:52:19,125
Speaker 1: and six or one hundred and seven episodes of this podcast.

932
00:52:19,445 --> 00:52:21,925
Speaker 1: I wonder how many of the people I interviewed to psychopaths,

933
00:52:22,165 --> 00:52:24,805
Speaker 1: you know. Part of doing this episode, I was slightly

934
00:52:24,805 --> 00:52:26,965
Speaker 1: worried that maybe I was, because there are some of

935
00:52:26,965 --> 00:52:31,085
Speaker 1: the things that I am. I do like sometimes processes,

936
00:52:31,165 --> 00:52:35,725
Speaker 1: I can be overly involved, sometimes I micromanage. But I've

937
00:52:35,765 --> 00:52:40,085
Speaker 1: asked around for confirmation, and of the people who've listened

938
00:52:40,085 --> 00:52:43,045
Speaker 1: to this episode and read David's book, they say I

939
00:52:43,085 --> 00:52:44,845
Speaker 1: am a lot of things, not all of them good,

940
00:52:45,085 --> 00:52:47,805
Speaker 1: but I am not a psychopath, so that was a relief.

941
00:52:48,685 --> 00:52:50,605
Speaker 1: But some of the people I've interviewed who I really

942
00:52:50,645 --> 00:52:54,045
Speaker 1: don't think are psychopaths, but who are really interesting episodes

943
00:52:54,565 --> 00:52:57,485
Speaker 1: of their own. Peter fitz Simon's Oh my gosh, if

944
00:52:57,485 --> 00:53:00,205
Speaker 1: you've wondered, he'll hate me for saying this, but if

945
00:53:00,205 --> 00:53:03,205
Speaker 1: you've wondered what it's like to be married to Lisa Wilkinson,

946
00:53:04,165 --> 00:53:07,085
Speaker 1: it's a great interview. Peter fitz. He've always been Donna.

947
00:53:07,805 --> 00:53:10,285
Speaker 1: Sue Brierley is the real life mom from Lyon. If

948
00:53:10,285 --> 00:53:14,205
Speaker 1: you don't know if you've seen the movie Lion about Saru,

949
00:53:14,445 --> 00:53:17,205
Speaker 1: the little boy who was adopted by I was going

950
00:53:17,245 --> 00:53:21,725
Speaker 1: to say Nicole Kidman by an Australian couple in real life,

951
00:53:21,965 --> 00:53:24,045
Speaker 1: the mother of whom was played by Nicole Kidman in

952
00:53:24,045 --> 00:53:28,325
Speaker 1: the film. And Sue is just amazing. It was so

953
00:53:28,365 --> 00:53:30,765
Speaker 1: interesting to get her perspective on the movie and on

954
00:53:31,045 --> 00:53:32,565
Speaker 1: some of the issues. I had a lot of questions.

955
00:53:32,605 --> 00:53:37,445
Speaker 1: If you've seen Lyon, he has a brother that doesn't

956
00:53:37,485 --> 00:53:40,365
Speaker 1: do so well after his adoption, and I had a

957
00:53:40,365 --> 00:53:42,365
Speaker 1: lot of questions for Sue about what it was like

958
00:53:42,485 --> 00:53:46,005
Speaker 1: to have that portrayed on screen, as well as Seru's

959
00:53:46,005 --> 00:53:50,045
Speaker 1: incredible story of finding his birth mother. Will Anderson. I

960
00:53:50,085 --> 00:53:53,645
Speaker 1: spoke to Lisa Oldfield. I spoke to She had three

961
00:53:53,645 --> 00:53:55,725
Speaker 1: glasses of wine during this podcast and then tried to

962
00:53:55,765 --> 00:53:59,245
Speaker 1: crack onto my son. We have had just so many

963
00:53:59,285 --> 00:54:01,845
Speaker 1: fascinating guests you can go and see in the feed

964
00:54:02,485 --> 00:54:04,325
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different people, and a lot of

965
00:54:04,325 --> 00:54:06,845
Speaker 1: people say this is a very good podcast to listen

966
00:54:06,885 --> 00:54:08,485
Speaker 1: to if you're on a road trip or going for

967
00:54:08,605 --> 00:54:12,085
Speaker 1: long walk anytime. Really, maybe it'll help you go to sleep.

968
00:54:12,165 --> 00:54:14,845
Speaker 1: Who knows. If you want to suggest a guest or

969
00:54:14,925 --> 00:54:17,565
Speaker 1: just ask me a question, call the podfhone on two

970
00:54:17,805 --> 00:54:20,605
Speaker 1: eight triple nine nine three eight six, or flick me

971
00:54:20,645 --> 00:54:24,085
Speaker 1: an email at podcast at momamea dot com dot au.

972
00:54:24,365 --> 00:54:28,565
Speaker 1: Please leave a review and a star rating of maybe

973
00:54:28,605 --> 00:54:31,125
Speaker 1: I don't know five stars in the iTunes store. Tell

974
00:54:31,165 --> 00:54:33,205
Speaker 1: someone about this podcast, because the more people that know

975
00:54:33,245 --> 00:54:36,285
Speaker 1: about it, the more we can continue to make this

976
00:54:36,365 --> 00:54:39,085
Speaker 1: and all the other great podcasts we make at Mamamea.

977
00:54:39,165 --> 00:54:43,645
Speaker 1: This podcast has been produced by the delightful Eliza Ratliffe

978
00:54:43,805 --> 00:54:48,005
Speaker 1: for the MMAMEA Women's Network. If you're looking for something

979
00:54:48,045 --> 00:54:50,765
Speaker 1: else to listen to, like and follow all of our

980
00:54:50,805 --> 00:54:54,085
Speaker 1: Mumamea podcasts, which are currently bringing you hot pod Summer

981
00:54:54,125 --> 00:54:57,485
Speaker 1: one hundred hours of summer listens, from spicy conversations to

982
00:54:57,685 --> 00:55:01,805
Speaker 1: incredible stories, fashion, beauty. Where the friends in your ears

983
00:55:01,965 --> 00:55:02,605
Speaker 1: over summer