Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Hello, out louders, it's
Speaker 2: Holly popping up in your ears today to tell you
Speaker 2: about our out Loud Sunday special. I don't know if
Speaker 2: you've been listening to MID, but if not, why not.
Speaker 2: It's the show that I host that is for gen
Speaker 2: x women who are anything but and on MED. We
Speaker 2: have all kinds of conversations about all kinds of things
Speaker 2: that grown up women have to deal with, and one
Speaker 2: of them that is very relevant at this time of
Speaker 2: year is about alcohol. You might be well and truly
Speaker 2: into the silly season now, Christmas parties, festive lunches, New Years,
Speaker 2: all of that stuff, and how do you know if
Speaker 2: your relationship with alcohol is getting a bit out of control.
Speaker 2: One of the first episodes of MID I did because
Speaker 2: I knew this was a big topic for gen X women,
Speaker 2: was with Shana Juan from Sober in the Country, and
Speaker 2: I talked to her about her story about how she
Speaker 2: broke up with alcohol in midlife, how she did it,
Speaker 2: what her life's like now, what had brought her to
Speaker 2: that point, how do you know if you're drinking too much?
Speaker 2: It's a really important conversation. And look, if you want
Speaker 2: more Mid, jump over to the midfeed and there are
Speaker 2: plenty of episodes about all kinds of things that affect
Speaker 2: gen X women in that feed, and you can listen
Speaker 2: via the link in our show notes. Gen X grew
Speaker 2: up with the cool girls with the drink like the boys,
Speaker 2: girls with beers and bladders and big fruity cocktails, weekends
Speaker 2: of blurry bedtimes and painful mornings for what happened last
Speaker 2: night and examining mystery bruises through a thickening head. Our
Speaker 2: pinups weren't five am yoga girlies clutching smoothie. We swooned
Speaker 2: over Kate Moss slinking out from somewhere, drinking one hand,
Speaker 2: dart in the other, a footloose man at her side.
Speaker 2: We were messy, sometimes made some bad calls, perhaps woke
Speaker 2: up with the shame maybe, But that's what fun was,
Speaker 2: we thought. Then we grew up and there was wine
Speaker 2: o'clock and Hen's Nights and girls did and Margie's and
Speaker 2: it's definitely six o'clock somewhere, and pop a bottle and
Speaker 2: we get knocked down, but we get up again, and
Speaker 2: then we didn't really go out anymore. But the wine
Speaker 2: was still in the fridge. And maybe it gets you
Speaker 2: through those witching hours between five and seven, But then
Speaker 2: what then? Those hours can be hard and long without
Speaker 2: the fridge doors swinging open and the sound of the
Speaker 2: glug glug. Poor, best not think about it. Life's a lot.
Speaker 2: You deserve a little treat. And it's been the thing
Speaker 2: that's been there for you at all the big moments,
Speaker 2: hand in yours as you've grown up, a symbol of summer,
Speaker 2: of good times, of freedom and holidays and birthdays and
Speaker 2: christenings and Sunday afternoons just because. And then maybe yes,
Speaker 2: it's been there hand in yours, in the arguments that
Speaker 2: should never have been and that thing that you didn't
Speaker 2: mean to say to your kid, and the shortened temper
Speaker 2: and the messy memories that you've chased away. It was
Speaker 2: there at the breakup and on that night you did
Speaker 2: what you said you wouldn't, and that one your friends
Speaker 2: still talk about, and you wonder, I think I might
Speaker 2: have outgrown you alcohol. Why are you still here? Hello,
Speaker 2: and welcome to mid My name's Holly Wainwright and I
Speaker 2: am mid midlife, mid family, mid identity crisis. Look, we're
Speaker 2: here to have the conversations that interest Gen X women
Speaker 2: because we are anything but mid And the only conversations
Speaker 2: we've got time for are deep ones, helpful ones, ones
Speaker 2: that make us we a little bit because we're snort
Speaker 2: laughing so hard. All of that's okay. And today I'm
Speaker 2: having one of those kind of conversations with Shanna. One
Speaker 2: about Generation X is complicated relationship with alcohol. We drink
Speaker 2: more than the generation above and the generation below. And
Speaker 2: here's where I put up my hand and say that
Speaker 2: I am not sober. I am not a sober member
Speaker 2: of Generation X. Alcohol definitely plays a role in my life,
Speaker 2: as I say to Shanna, but she told me that
Speaker 2: ninety percent of the people who seek help from her
Speaker 2: organization sober in the country or women aged between forty
Speaker 2: and sixty.
Speaker 1: That's us.
Speaker 2: Friends. You might have heard Shanna speak before on Australian
Speaker 2: Story or on MEA's No Filter. You might have seen
Speaker 2: her accepting an award for Australian of the Year, Local
Speaker 2: Hero or Mary Clare's Advocate of the Year. You might
Speaker 2: have even seen her representing Australia on the international stage
Speaker 2: at the funeral of the Queen of England. Because all
Speaker 2: of those things have happened, Shanna is a big deal
Speaker 2: in the sober world, not that you'd ever hear her
Speaker 2: saying that, because she took her own life experience as
Speaker 2: a former self described small town drunk and turned it
Speaker 2: into an organization that helps others. It was twenty fifteen
Speaker 2: when Shanna made the decision to give up drinking, a
Speaker 2: decision that she says saved her life, and she started
Speaker 2: Sober in the Country. It's a grassroots charity with a
Speaker 2: simple mission to ensure all our mates know that it's
Speaker 2: okay to say no to booze in the bush. And
Speaker 2: if you want to hear the whole story about how
Speaker 2: that happened, we'll put the link to Shanna's conversation on
Speaker 2: no Filter in the show notes. But if you're thinking, oh,
Speaker 2: this is going to be about people who live in
Speaker 2: the country, well it is, but not only because Shanner's
Speaker 2: messages about alcohol are very relevant and might resonate with
Speaker 2: you no matter where you are. Shanna, thank you so
Speaker 2: much for coming on to talk to us on mid
Speaker 2: I want to jump right in with this question, right,
Speaker 2: because I've been told that around eighty percent of the
Speaker 2: people who come to your peer support group, Sober in
Speaker 2: the Country are women age between forty and sixty. Is
Speaker 2: that true?
Speaker 1: It is true, Holly, it is and it's a statistic
Speaker 1: that never ceases to make me feel a bit sad.
Speaker 1: But yeah, my age group are the greatest portion of
Speaker 1: our peer support network, which we call the bush Tribe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so tell me a little bit about the bush
Speaker 2: Tribe first, so that people can get a picture of
Speaker 2: what we're talking about. Give me a bit of a
Speaker 2: snapshot of what you've been doing for the past gosh,
Speaker 2: is it nine years now?
Speaker 1: It's heading towards ten years since I personally said see
Speaker 1: you later. Tabooze Sober in the Country was effectively registered
Speaker 1: as a national charity in late twenty nineteen after Australian
Speaker 1: Story did an episode on us. Myself is a human being.
Speaker 1: I've been having these conversations since twenty fifteen, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: we're heading on towards a decade.
Speaker 2: Shanna, if you don't mind me asking how old were
Speaker 2: you in twenty fifteen?
Speaker 1: When you oh, shivers, are you going to make me
Speaker 1: do that? I turned fifty pc years, so it.
Speaker 2: Was around forty, around forty, yeah, around forty. Your own
Speaker 2: story also fits into this kind of demo of the
Speaker 2: forty to sixty year old women going hold on this
Speaker 2: is not working.
Speaker 1: It very much does. And as I read, and I've
Speaker 1: probably said forty eight million times, I share my own
Speaker 1: story of overcoming alcohol addiction and suffering from that battle,
Speaker 1: not because it's unique and not because I'm special, but
Speaker 1: precisely because of the opposite, because my story is horrifyingly,
Speaker 1: horrifyingly common, and it's especially horrifyingly common in my age group.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so to to go back and just I
Speaker 1: guess give you the blurb on the charity, so Sober
Speaker 1: in the Country is a bush charity and we exist
Speaker 1: to raise awareness and have conversations around alcohol heim in
Speaker 1: rural and remote Australia. And our primary purpose in a
Speaker 1: snapshot is to aim for a future rural Australia in
Speaker 1: which our mates know it's always okay to say no, thanks,
Speaker 1: no thanks, to be or not today right. Our okay
Speaker 1: to say no hashtag is what we roll out with.
Speaker 1: But of course, underneath that friendly, happy, very inclusive hashtag
Speaker 1: is a much small serious chat. Your listeners might be thinking, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I don't need to listen to this if it's about
Speaker 1: the bush. It's actually a universal chat. Alcohol harm is
Speaker 1: an issue globally and nationally. We just happen to focus
Speaker 1: on the rural sector. But this chat it's relevant to
Speaker 1: any of your listeners in that space.
Speaker 2: Of course, when you talk about why you started sober
Speaker 2: in the country, you talk about obviously the isolation that
Speaker 2: people in the bush face when it comes to this,
Speaker 2: and the sometimes lack of resources. But drinking isolates a
Speaker 2: lot of people no matter where they are right So
Speaker 2: it's this thing of people feeling like they're struggling alone,
Speaker 2: even if they are right in the middle of the city.
Speaker 2: I know that everybody's story is individual, but as you've
Speaker 2: already said, your particular story and coming to ask for
Speaker 2: help when you're forty is quite typical. What's the kind
Speaker 2: of average reason that a woman in our age group
Speaker 2: finally goes it's time. I need to try and address this,
Speaker 2: because I've also heard you say that it can take
Speaker 2: twenty years for people to recognize that their relationship with
Speaker 2: alcohol is problematic. Could you pay me a bit of
Speaker 2: a picture of a kind of average story that might
Speaker 2: bring somebody to your door.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know what, I'll use myself as an
Speaker 1: example just because that way I can't get it wrong.
Speaker 1: But I am very typical, as we've discussed with my demographics.
Speaker 1: So Shannawan enters the world or back then, Shannon Rowlands
Speaker 1: enters the world bright eyed, bushy child. I've got the
Speaker 1: world at my feet. I've got a loving family in
Speaker 1: my case, which confuses a lot of people, right because
Speaker 1: they think the only people who can end up suicidal
Speaker 1: and almost dead from addiction are people who've had a
Speaker 1: rotten childhood. That's a common misnomer. In my eighteenth year,
Speaker 1: as we discuss and explore in Mamma Mea, I experience
Speaker 1: multiple sexual assaults and rape and trauma. So I turned
Speaker 1: to alcohol because it's prevalent, and it's abundant, and it's everywhere,
Speaker 1: and I learn very quickly if I have a few drinks,
Speaker 1: my inhibitions are dropped, My worries peer to go into
Speaker 1: a different realm where they're not, as you know, prevalent
Speaker 1: and ever constantine. Voila entering the era where I use
Speaker 1: alcohol to self medicate. But because I'm beautiful and I'm
Speaker 1: young and I'm perceived as a fun party girl. No
Speaker 1: one perceives or looks at that as a red flag
Speaker 1: or an issue because all of us in that age
Speaker 1: group are partying really really hard. Yes, I mean you know,
Speaker 1: like that's it was normal, wasn't it? It was normal?
Speaker 2: And also I think that almost for our generation, because
Speaker 2: I think this is shifting happily. But it was almost
Speaker 2: like proving that you could party with the boys, whether
Speaker 2: that was in your setting in the bush, which is
Speaker 2: a very particular kind of testosterone fueled environment, but there
Speaker 2: are testosterone fueled environments everywhere, and certainly I grew up
Speaker 2: in a city in England and being able to drink
Speaker 2: with the boys and being able to drink like a
Speaker 2: bloke and being a good time party person was high status.
Speaker 2: Like it was whether or not you were doing it
Speaker 2: to cover up your own insecurities or to get past
Speaker 2: the trauma from it was kind of irrelevant. It was
Speaker 2: seen as a good time, So please go on. You
Speaker 2: were saying it was seen like it wasn't a pride.
Speaker 1: It's a badge of honor, hey, isn't it. It's like right,
Speaker 1: So there's the trauma factor, there's that I'm trying to
Speaker 1: fit in in this extremely male dominated environment where no
Speaker 1: one's going to take me seriously. Maybe if I do
Speaker 1: this it'll help and fit it. You know, I can
Speaker 1: fit in exactly what you've just said. And so you
Speaker 1: look at a person who ends up in addiction and
Speaker 1: they don't wake up one day and think, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'd quite like to be that person who's on the
Speaker 1: edge of suicide and had enough with life and wants
Speaker 1: to check out. But that's where I was at age forty,
Speaker 1: and as I share anytime I do a keynote talk
Speaker 1: or do social media posts or whatever, this is a
Speaker 1: twenty year discent. It began here, but it ended there,
Speaker 1: and so is the complex nature of alcohol abuse, me
Speaker 1: huse and finally addiction. It's a sliding scale and it
Speaker 1: begins over here, but it ends there. And for me,
Speaker 1: I was in that absolute classic statistic of a person
Speaker 1: who took between eighteen and twenty years to seek support.
Speaker 1: And I believe that statistic is what it is because
Speaker 1: of what we've just discussed over here. It's seen as
Speaker 1: completely normal. But at the end, when you're the forty
Speaker 1: year old woman passing out at a dinner party or
Speaker 1: doing humiliating, you know, extremely embarrassing things in public. You're
Speaker 1: no longer able to slip under that radar of party girl,
Speaker 1: fun girl, because you're now you're now forty. It's not
Speaker 1: so funny anymore. It's actually embarrassing and noticeable, which in
Speaker 1: itself is a whole ridiculous issue of complexities, because it
Speaker 1: really is. It shouldn't be age relevant, should it.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like it's not cute anymore, Like it
Speaker 2: was cute there for a while, but now it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: we should be worried about her. And if you throw
Speaker 2: in that often, you know, for a lot of us,
Speaker 2: these issues can they might take you through motherhood or
Speaker 2: marriage or divorce or whatever. You know, you're kind of
Speaker 2: juggling these things, but the alcohol use is still there.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you the idea that it takes
Speaker 2: between eighteen twenty years, and as you say that where
Speaker 2: you may end up might be somewhere quite extreme.
Speaker 1: But for some women it's not.
Speaker 2: Necessarily that they're at a very extreme end, but it's
Speaker 2: that they're unable to let go of that crutch. And yes,
Speaker 2: I know that in your conversation with me, you do
Speaker 2: talk about a rock bottom moment for you that brought
Speaker 2: you to the point where you were like, this time,
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 1: To get help or I die.
Speaker 2: Yes, do you think and does your experience talking to
Speaker 2: women about this is that What is the usual catalyst
Speaker 2: for somebody putting their hand up in this age bracket
Speaker 2: and going, actually, I've got to change this or can
Speaker 2: it sometimes be something less dramatic?
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for raising that. Holy it's such
Speaker 1: a great question. It can be one hundred things at
Speaker 1: any given point in time. One of the most difficult
Speaker 1: aspects of raising conversations around alcohol harm and addiction is
Speaker 1: this pervasive message that we are fed that the only
Speaker 1: reason you should ever quit alcohol is if you are
Speaker 1: someone in addiction or you've had a rock bottom crisis moment.
Speaker 1: And that is such rubbish. That is such a lie
Speaker 1: that we are fed from society. So my answer to
Speaker 1: that is no, and happily and thank god for advocates
Speaker 1: like me or other charities or other social media influencers.
Speaker 1: There are women across the globe and rural Australia and
Speaker 1: inner city Australia who are now going Wow, thanks to
Speaker 1: that awareness, that education, that information and that stuff that
Speaker 1: is really resonating with me. I'm going to have a
Speaker 1: good hard look at where I'm at with my drinking.
Speaker 1: And I'm not in a rock bottom se scenario. But
Speaker 1: when I think about it, and when I'm really honest
Speaker 1: about it, I can't actually finish my workday without having
Speaker 1: one or two big glasses of wine. Holy crap? Is
Speaker 1: that a thing? Is that a problem? I don't know.
Speaker 1: And what's so interesting about all the conversations we've generated
Speaker 1: is that those people who've had the capacity to have
Speaker 1: a really good, honest look at their relationship with alcohol,
Speaker 1: they're going, I actually don't know how to do life
Speaker 1: without alcohol. Whether it's one glass or one bottle or
Speaker 1: three bottles, as was my case, doesn't matter if alcohol
Speaker 1: is not serving your family, your health, your relationships, your finances,
Speaker 1: your work life, balance, your whatever. And if it's an issue,
Speaker 1: it's an issue, it doesn't have to be a rock
Speaker 1: bottom moment. And so I would hazard a guess, Holly,
Speaker 1: that historically we only looked at it when it was
Speaker 1: a rock bottom crisis moment, because historically we've had this
Speaker 1: booze worshiping mentality in Australia where you are a legend
Speaker 1: if you're Holly or Shanna and you can drink two
Speaker 1: bottles of wine without going into a coma. Or you're
Speaker 1: the blokeout in the backyards at the cattle station who
Speaker 1: can sink a bottle of rump and still be upright
Speaker 1: and chase a beast. It's ridiculous, right. We just have
Speaker 1: this hero worship of grog that has meant people didn't
Speaker 1: seek help before because it.
Speaker 2: Was you know, it's interesting, isn't it, Because it's complicated,
Speaker 2: that hero worship, because as you've said about the party
Speaker 2: girl and how there's a tipping point where she's no
Speaker 2: longer to be celebrated but to be kind of pitied
Speaker 2: and denigrated and maybe taken advantage of where there are
Speaker 2: points in our life where we shift, so you can
Speaker 2: move from party girl to like the mummy wine time idea.
Speaker 2: And I'd love to explore that a bit because what
Speaker 2: I noticed very much in my peer group, and I
Speaker 2: want to be really honest here, I am not sober.
Speaker 2: I do drink. I don't drink to excess, but it
Speaker 2: is part of my social life, there is no question
Speaker 2: about that. And so one of my interests in exploring
Speaker 2: this is that idea of because there's all of my
Speaker 2: peer group around me. We have all grown up with
Speaker 2: alcohol being part of our identity because we're part of
Speaker 2: that binge drinking culture, and we're all sort of stepping
Speaker 2: back and questioning it a bit now and going, oh,
Speaker 2: what does it look like without it? But once you've
Speaker 2: moved out of party girl, sometimes what slips in there
Speaker 2: is wine o' clock. Right, you're not going out anymore necessarily,
Speaker 2: But maybe it's the big glass of wine that helps
Speaker 2: you get the kids into the bath or whatever, or
Speaker 2: it's the big glass of wine that is that. And
Speaker 2: I know that I've had to unpick this that there
Speaker 2: is the marcation point between work day or parenting day
Speaker 2: and me time, relaxed time is a glass of wine.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Do you think that the way that we talk about that,
Speaker 2: and the memes and the jokes and their mummy juice
Speaker 2: glasses that you can get and all that kind of stuff,
Speaker 2: do you think that's almost as pun It's just as
Speaker 2: dangerous as the kind of you idolizing the footballer who
Speaker 2: can down twenty five beers on a flight kind of
Speaker 2: drinking culture.
Speaker 1: You know what, I'll just chuck it in here that
Speaker 1: neither myself nor sober in the country. Are anti alcohol
Speaker 1: prohibitionists in our approach? Right? My husband drinks a beer.
Speaker 1: He loves a beer. He's one of these magical, bizarre
Speaker 1: humans who can have one or two drinks and leave
Speaker 1: it at that. Oh my god, I don't know how
Speaker 1: people do it. Right. So anyway, I don't believe in
Speaker 1: prohibition as effective. I don't think it's ever gonna work
Speaker 1: if we go at things with extremes. So anyway, that's
Speaker 1: that out of the way. So I don't judge you,
Speaker 1: and I don't judge you. I don't judge anyone else. However,
Speaker 1: I am always asking whether it's through again as myself
Speaker 1: as a human, or through our social media. I'm always
Speaker 1: saying and challenging people. Can we not glorify deadly drinking? Please?
Speaker 1: Can we not do that with our social media? I'll
Speaker 1: give you a class example, Holly. There's this trend that
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's been and gone or if
Speaker 1: it's still happening, but you know, there's massive Stanley sippy
Speaker 1: cups and people make a meme where they pour at
Speaker 1: least a bottle of wine into a monstrous cup. They
Speaker 1: cut a tea bag string, right, and drop it and
Speaker 1: so that they're pretending they're having a cuppa, And then
Speaker 1: the meme is that they're at kids sport while not
Speaker 1: sacrificing mummy juice or mummy wine. And I've got to
Speaker 1: tell you, everything in me just wants to curl up
Speaker 1: and die, and I just find myself going, please don't.
Speaker 1: And the worst thing is I got to stick my
Speaker 1: own hand in there and say, that is exactly what
Speaker 1: I would have perpetuated once upon a time. Once upon
Speaker 1: a time, I was the human who if someone else
Speaker 1: sat down next to me and said, no thanks, I'm right,
Speaker 1: I would have said, what you're not drinking? What's wrong
Speaker 1: with you? Are you pregnant? Have you got a problem?
Speaker 1: I was that ignorant person, and I in that and
Speaker 1: I totally claim it because it's exactly what I did.
Speaker 1: And I had no clue at the time how pernicious
Speaker 1: and how much of the culture of idolizing alcohol that
Speaker 1: was feeding into and so on the other side of
Speaker 1: that fence. And when I see, like, I'm okay, I
Speaker 1: haven't wanted a drink in ten years, What a bloody
Speaker 1: beautiful thing that is. I don't care about it, don't
Speaker 1: think about it, don't want it, donate it. I could
Speaker 1: never do this job if that was the torture I
Speaker 1: lived daily. What I do know, though, is that there
Speaker 1: are people who do live with that hell and that
Speaker 1: torture daily. So imagine, imagine one of your best mates
Speaker 1: in your mummy circle is having a silent and deadly
Speaker 1: battle and is quietly attending say AA meetings in city
Speaker 1: and then going to soccer on a weekend and having
Speaker 1: this shoved in their face twenty four to seven. Those
Speaker 1: are the people I think of when I see those
Speaker 1: memes that I just I just feel so bloody sad.
Speaker 1: And I know the intent isn't evil and bad and dreadful.
Speaker 1: I know that I get that, But regardless, the knock
Speaker 1: on effect of that worshiping and the sharing of those
Speaker 1: memes buy some really high level influences. It is contributing
Speaker 1: to harm and there's no question about it. So what
Speaker 1: do we do? How do we change it?
Speaker 2: I wanted to know how you know if you've got
Speaker 2: a problem with alcohol, particularly when wine culture is everywhere
Speaker 2: around you telling you it's normal, that's coming up after
Speaker 2: the break, if you are struggling, Because we've already discussed
Speaker 2: this for most of us, it might take a long
Speaker 2: time for us to because you say, and I heard
Speaker 2: you talk to me about this, that for ten years now,
Speaker 2: since you've become sober, as you say, you haven't been
Speaker 2: battling with it, but you battled for twenty years, like
Speaker 2: as in battling with the urge that you battled for
Speaker 2: twenty years before that. Right, So, people who are questioning
Speaker 2: their drinking or realizing that it's making their life hard,
Speaker 2: but they're kind of trying to picture what life might
Speaker 2: look like on the other side. And I really want
Speaker 2: to talk to you about that in a minute. If
Speaker 2: they're seeing everywhere around them and I'm sure that I'm
Speaker 2: guilty of this in my social circle. Oh I really
Speaker 2: need a wine. Oh time to you know the mummy
Speaker 2: paw that's this big and all those things. It's like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: maybe I don't have a problem. Maybe it's all fine.
Speaker 2: Maybe everybody's like this. It's like a because you're always
Speaker 2: in a battle of justification, right with your own behaviors
Speaker 2: that you kind of know deep down are not serving
Speaker 2: you anymore, but you're looking for validation at every turn.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And that's such a common thing. Something that's
Speaker 1: really encouraging. That I would love your listeners to understand
Speaker 1: is that when we all choose to make the smallest changes,
Speaker 1: you will see me bang on about these through our
Speaker 1: socials as well. We're not anti alcohol, we're just anti
Speaker 1: alcohol harm. And when we make small changes, whether it's
Speaker 1: through social media or for instance, here's an example, Let's
Speaker 1: say Ladies Day at the Rugby is coming, almost inevitably,
Speaker 1: what we will see is an invitation that's gets dropped
Speaker 1: into the stratosphere that says all you can drink tickets
Speaker 1: two hundred dollars, blah blah blah. When we see a
Speaker 1: change as simple as drinks tickets two hundred dollars, non
Speaker 1: alcoholic options fifty five dollars or one hundred dollars or
Speaker 1: whatever the hell it might be, there's suddenly there's this
Speaker 1: inclusion for a non drinker. How powerful, how simple, how effective?
Speaker 1: But because once again, at a societal level, at almost
Speaker 1: every turn, it's in our faces that the expectation is
Speaker 1: holy and Shanner and every single person is drinking, drinking, drinking, drinking.
Speaker 1: When you're the one not drinking, you feel like an
Speaker 1: absolute friggin weirdo, and you already are struggling with this battle,
Speaker 1: as you said before, and for some people it's been
Speaker 1: going on for a decade and they're still working it
Speaker 1: out and they're floundering and they're struggling. And instead of
Speaker 1: of having people at every corner trying to metaphorically jam
Speaker 1: alcohol down our necks, if we've got leaders and people
Speaker 1: and influencers saying if you're not drinking, it's okay, it's
Speaker 1: okay to say no, it's all good. Have one of these,
Speaker 1: have a zero ol beer or have a sparkling water.
Speaker 1: Suddenly that terror that I'm feeling as a human contemplating
Speaker 1: where I'm at is massively reduced, and it's normalized, and
Speaker 1: there's just so many ways we can make positive inroads.
Speaker 2: That's a really interesting point about things like that. It's like,
Speaker 2: if it's right from the get go, or you cannot drink,
Speaker 2: and it's this one hundred percent. And it's interesting because
Speaker 2: I think generations younger than us a nailing this. You know,
Speaker 2: they're saying that non alcoholic drinks is the fastest growing
Speaker 2: sector and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: Can I quickly add if someone is in the contemplation phase,
Speaker 1: they're reducing them moderating their switching drinks whatever whatever you
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, Holly, and I think this is a super
Speaker 1: important one. To have alcohol free or zero elk beer,
Speaker 1: wine and spirits. Can you please just be super careful
Speaker 1: with those if that's your choice. And I say that
Speaker 1: because those of us who've battled and are at the
Speaker 1: more problematic addiction stage of alcohol, right when we're consuming
Speaker 1: things that replicate perfectly the taste and the smell and
Speaker 1: the ritual of alcohol at five pm, where do you reckon?
Speaker 1: That can go very very quickly. So just be really
Speaker 1: mindful of falling for the marketing behind those drinks, which
Speaker 1: is extremely cleverly designed to say, if you're chasing some moderation,
Speaker 1: do this, try that, do this, Just be super careful
Speaker 1: of replicating alcohol.
Speaker 2: Do they have a place in helping you in a
Speaker 2: social transition? Do you think, I mean some people, for
Speaker 2: some people who have that kind of issue of I'm
Speaker 2: standing around at a barbecue, at least I've got a
Speaker 2: drink in my hand.
Speaker 1: They absolutely do for some And so the whole thing
Speaker 1: with the spectrum of alcohol addiction, zero ELK drinks, etc.
Speaker 1: There's no black and white. There's only a million shades
Speaker 1: of gray. I could tell you firsthand of endless stories
Speaker 1: of people who are at that other problematic end towards
Speaker 1: you know, the chronic addiction, end stage addiction, and they've
Speaker 1: turned to zero elk imitation drinks and they've had a
Speaker 1: relapse that they haven't come back from. They're really, really,
Speaker 1: really problematic in that regard. They have a place for
Speaker 1: some Absolutely they really do. If in doubt have a
Speaker 1: sparkling soda, water and lemon. Don't go near stuff that
Speaker 1: imitates alcohol is just it can be very, very dangerous.
Speaker 1: I'm ten years in and I will not touch them
Speaker 1: with a barge pole. Absolutely will not go near them.
Speaker 2: Seana, if someone's listening to this and they know that
Speaker 2: their relationship with alcohol is tipping or has tipped into
Speaker 2: unhealthy territory, and they're saying to themselves, but you know,
Speaker 2: I can do dry July if I have to, or
Speaker 2: I don't drink Monday to Wednesday, or I don't or
Speaker 2: you know, I only drink blood. You know, I think
Speaker 2: we put a lot of excuses justifications things around our drinking,
Speaker 2: even if we deep down know We've talked about how
Speaker 2: there's a sort of a spectrum, but is there a
Speaker 2: question you should ask yourself to know whether or not
Speaker 2: you do need to put your hand up for help?
Speaker 2: Or is it not that simple?
Speaker 1: Do you know what I used to do? I used
Speaker 1: to google? Am I an alcohol?
Speaker 2: About a lot of people listening to this A.
Speaker 1: Lot of people, right, I'll tell you the litmus test, Holly.
Speaker 1: That seems to be pretty fail proof. If you think
Speaker 1: there's a problem, there's probably a problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Honestly, people without an issue or problem with alcohol don't
Speaker 1: ask themselves if they have a problem or an issue
Speaker 1: with alcohol. It's that simple.
Speaker 2: If you're in your forties fifties and you're realizing that
Speaker 2: you need to address alcohol, likely alcohol has been part
Speaker 2: of your identity, as we've already discussed in various ways,
Speaker 2: whether that's party girl, mum culture, whatever, it is wine
Speaker 2: time for a long time. And one of the things
Speaker 2: that I know to be true is this thing of like,
Speaker 2: but who am I without drinking?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: How do I celebrate without drinking? Alcohol has been with
Speaker 2: me at every birthday, party, every wedding, every summer holiday.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like it's become in our culture and
Speaker 2: in some other cultures around the world, it's synonymous with celebration,
Speaker 2: with relaxation, with having good time. And I imagine that
Speaker 2: this must be particularly tricky in the bush in a
Speaker 2: way because pubs are kind of like the community center,
Speaker 2: aren't they. They're like, they're the place where everybody goes.
Speaker 2: It's where you meet people, it's where everybody connects. So
Speaker 2: what do you say to people who are struggling with
Speaker 2: that thing of like, but who even am I if
Speaker 2: I'm not drinking? And can I be in the world?
Speaker 1: So I'm going to tackle this one as a city
Speaker 1: versus rural issue because this is where the really obvious
Speaker 1: gap happens. So let's say you, as Holly, decide you're
Speaker 1: going to become a human who doesn't drink, and you
Speaker 1: have the option. Let's say if you're in let's say
Speaker 1: you're in Bondi or inner city Sydney, right, and it's
Speaker 1: weird for you in your yoga class or your surfing group,
Speaker 1: or your book club or whatever. Course, everyone's a raging
Speaker 1: piss head book.
Speaker 2: Clubs, right, and that's another place where everyone goes, Oh
Speaker 2: you mean wine club.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, exactly exactly. So Holly decides, you know what,
Speaker 1: I actually can't do this because there's too much grog.
Speaker 1: In all of these situations, the beauty is you might
Speaker 1: be able to go one suburb over and find a
Speaker 1: new surf club, a new book club, a new yoga class.
Speaker 1: You might actually be able to find this plethora of
Speaker 1: face to face recovery support meetings because you're in the
Speaker 1: city where there is such a notion as anonymity. Praise
Speaker 1: be how wonderful you suddenly have choices, services, support, options, connection.
Speaker 1: Now let's take case studies Shannawan, a woman who has
Speaker 1: indeed had alcohol heart and soul and center of her identity,
Speaker 1: her whole life as the wild party girl. Who is
Speaker 1: she without alcohol? Well, bloody good question. I'm still figuring
Speaker 1: that out ten years down the track. And what I
Speaker 1: will tell you is it in rural and regional and
Speaker 1: even some of our bigger regional cities, right, it is
Speaker 1: an incredibly difficult journey for people because we do not
Speaker 1: have the option of being anonymous. We do not have
Speaker 1: the option of changing our crowd, our gathering places, our
Speaker 1: friends groups, our schools, yoga classes. Whatever. What you get
Speaker 1: is what you get, and you've got it for life.
Speaker 1: And so you have to learn to be a sober
Speaker 1: human in that environment, or you can pack up and
Speaker 1: start a brand new life somewhere else. Those are your
Speaker 1: two options.
Speaker 2: I've heard you call that pulling a geographical.
Speaker 1: Pulling a geographical right, and that's really not ideal, and
Speaker 1: it breaks my heart that that should even be away.
Speaker 1: Someone has to learn to deal with this. But I've
Speaker 1: seen it happen because a person newly sober is struggling
Speaker 1: so badly to find their feet and be accepted now
Speaker 1: as a non drinking person, that they go this is
Speaker 1: so hard. I'm just going to start again. And I
Speaker 1: have to confess that when I gave up alcohol, I
Speaker 1: said to my husband, mate, I need to leave this town.
Speaker 1: I need to leave this place. I got to go.
Speaker 1: I gotta go. I just don't want to be here
Speaker 1: anymore because everyone thinks this, and everyone's been gossiping about
Speaker 1: me anyway, and you know, God Almighty, the things that
Speaker 1: I heard about myself, and it's pretty hardcore.
Speaker 2: It must be terrible. And also all those people are
Speaker 2: still there, and they've got a picture in the head
Speaker 2: of who you are, and you've got to almost convince
Speaker 2: them or yourself that you're not that person anymore.
Speaker 1: And my beautiful, beautiful, wise husband said to me, sweetheart,
Speaker 1: you've been running from yourself and doing geographicals your whole life.
Speaker 1: You have to face yourself. God damn it. That so
Speaker 1: annoying and so wise. I'm not saying that's the anset
Speaker 1: for everyone, but that was what we decided to do,
Speaker 1: and it was an easy holly for me to face
Speaker 1: my community that i'd been. I mean, here's the irony.
Speaker 1: I mean, I was the person everyone shouted drinks to
Speaker 1: because I performed like a monkey. Yeah, And that was
Speaker 1: all fun and games, wasn't it. But when it was
Speaker 1: a problem, I was mocked and shunned and talked about.
Speaker 1: And that's the paradox of what happens with drinkers. We're
Speaker 1: funny one minute and we're ostracized the next. And crueler
Speaker 1: again is that we can be ostracized further socially and
Speaker 1: not just geographically, because we've chosen to be so bad.
Speaker 1: And that's uncomfortable because in rural communities people are massive,
Speaker 1: massive drinkers, and they don't know what to do with me.
Speaker 1: I don't want to sound like I'm full of myself here.
Speaker 1: That's the last thing I ever want to sound like.
Speaker 1: But I would like to think that the advocacy that
Speaker 1: I have been doing in the rural space has provided
Speaker 1: a beacon. I guess for a lot of women who've
Speaker 1: come after me to know how to navigate is to
Speaker 1: better manage that situation, because it is brutal and it's
Speaker 1: really really hard. And I can say, hand on heart
Speaker 1: it is easier for those who've come behind because a
Speaker 1: decade of sober in the country and conversations and then
Speaker 1: of course Australian of the Year and Marie Claire stuff
Speaker 1: and whatnot, there's been a lot of media, there's been
Speaker 1: a lot of publicity in our message has been heard
Speaker 1: nationally and so thank God for that because my only
Speaker 1: wish ever has been that someone someone else like me,
Speaker 1: would not go through the hell I've experienced in becoming
Speaker 1: sober in the country.
Speaker 2: All Right, so maybe you've decided you do need to
Speaker 2: do something about your drinking, but I want to know
Speaker 2: what that looks like on the other side. If alcohol
Speaker 2: has always been your fun, your socializing, your release, your
Speaker 2: coping mechanism, how does life work without it? That's coming
Speaker 2: up next? Has it changed? Like obviously you know that
Speaker 2: the work that you've done has changed it for people
Speaker 2: come behind you, But you now living almost a decade
Speaker 2: as the sober person, do you still have to struggle
Speaker 2: with all that stuff in terms of other people's perceptions
Speaker 2: or have people Because what I'm thinking about is a
Speaker 2: woman listening to this who's imagining her social life and
Speaker 2: her social group and her whether it's in the country,
Speaker 2: whether it's in the city, small town, whatever, and she's
Speaker 2: thinking it's going to be so hard. Does it get easier?
Speaker 2: Do people give you a frickin' break after a while
Speaker 2: and support you rather than make things harder.
Speaker 1: What we hear again and again and again through the
Speaker 1: eight hundred people, just even in our peer support network,
Speaker 1: those who get some runs on the board and get
Speaker 1: a year or two under their belt, the common refrain
Speaker 1: is it gets easier. Hang in there, have hope, don't
Speaker 1: give up, because what eventually happens. And I'll tell you
Speaker 1: what if you ever want to know, if you ever
Speaker 1: want to know who you're truest, truest friends are get sober,
Speaker 1: Get sober, and watch what happens. And again I'll use
Speaker 1: myself as an example. I am a case in point.
Speaker 1: Very quickly, once we choose sobriety, two things happen our
Speaker 1: friends and families and those who really do care about
Speaker 1: our welfare, our mental health and us as humans can
Speaker 1: do nothing but get around us and support us quickly
Speaker 1: because they're so relieved that we're seeking to change, right,
Speaker 1: because most of us who give up had an unhealthy
Speaker 1: thing going on, or in my case, we were at
Speaker 1: absolute rock bottom, whatever end of the spectrum it is.
Speaker 1: When people see someone trying to do something to better
Speaker 1: their health, their circumstances, whatever, true friends wrap around. Right.
Speaker 1: Often big drinking buddies and those upon who we relied
Speaker 1: on to just have big drinking sessions and no meaningful,
Speaker 1: real interaction beyond just getting on the source, they drop away.
Speaker 1: And at first that hurts because we used to think
Speaker 1: upon those groups as our friends. But it's pretty evident
Speaker 1: quickly that that friendship group was actually based on nothing
Speaker 1: more than just getting drunk. Yes, there's nothing meaningful behind it,
Speaker 1: and that's pretty brutal and confronting once you're seeing the
Speaker 1: truth of that. But myself and many many many before
Speaker 1: and after me, have seen quickly that wow, they were
Speaker 1: not my mates.
Speaker 2: You know that is so relevant, This idea that like,
Speaker 2: but this is what me and my friends do. We
Speaker 2: get together and we drink and that's what we do, right,
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of women don't necessarily mean me.
Speaker 2: I mean this is but although sometimes indeed we do.
Speaker 2: But the idea that what would we do without? Is
Speaker 2: there fun to be had? Can life still be fun
Speaker 2: in midlife? With our alcohol shower.
Speaker 1: Bloody oath? It can be? Holly? Do you know what?
Speaker 1: Oh my god? And again I'll use our group as
Speaker 1: a reference point. I mean, we see people dropping comments
Speaker 1: and they might have been struggling for a couple of years,
Speaker 1: and eventually when they come through the hard slog, and
Speaker 1: there is a hard slog for a lot of these people,
Speaker 1: it's rarely an overnight, you know, transition, right, But when
Speaker 1: they come out the other side of all that hardship,
Speaker 1: people are suddenly going, oh my god, you guys, It's
Speaker 1: been two years since I've had a drink, and I've
Speaker 1: saved like god knows how many tens of thousands of
Speaker 1: dollars and I've started running. And guess what my kids think.
Speaker 1: I'm an awesome mum because I'm present and i am
Speaker 1: here and I'm available and I'm not useless every Sunday.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say that as though every mummy is that
Speaker 1: it hasn't dream right, you know what I'm saying. I'm
Speaker 1: speaking generally. Or we see dads dropping in and saying
Speaker 1: I've lost my beer gut and I've got a six pack,
Speaker 1: and my wife reckons I'm the shes look at me,
Speaker 1: go it's gorgeous. We see so many beautiful, beautiful stories
Speaker 1: of families restored, health, restored, lives actually restored. And I
Speaker 1: feel like I sound like an evangelist here, but I
Speaker 1: feel like an evangelists sometimes. I want to stand on
Speaker 1: the top of the mountain and say, you guys, you
Speaker 1: don't understand. What's on the other side is amazing. There's happiness,
Speaker 1: there's clarity, there's presence of mind. Yeah, there's fitness. There's
Speaker 1: all of these wonderful, wonderful things. I think that in
Speaker 1: sobriety circles what can happen is because there is so
Speaker 1: much hardship and that a focus on the bad things
Speaker 1: and the rock bottom, that we forget the magical moments
Speaker 1: that come. I have to tell you, whenever I do
Speaker 1: a keynote, I always finish with that point and I say,
Speaker 1: you know, for magical Unicorn was to land on my
Speaker 1: shoulder and say, Shanna, wan, I grant thee the wish
Speaker 1: to drink like a normal human from henceforth. Ping I'd say, no,
Speaker 1: you bugger off and take that wish and stick it
Speaker 1: in your jumper. Thanks, mister unicorn. I literally would never
Speaker 1: go back to alcohol for all the money in the world, ever, ever, ever.
Speaker 1: So you know, I think it's super important that people
Speaker 1: listening who are in that contemplation phase understand the good
Speaker 1: stuff that can happen and the change. You know what
Speaker 1: I see again and again, Holly, is that friendship groups
Speaker 1: and what not change drastically, and so I'm no longer
Speaker 1: surrounded by humans on the grog. I'm surrounded by people
Speaker 1: in my friendship groups who are very health focused, motivated,
Speaker 1: They're achieving things, they're doing things. They're very inspiring people
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: I'd love to ask you, Shan before we go, if
Speaker 2: somebody is listening to this, and it's not necessarily themselves
Speaker 2: that they're worried about, but somebody in their lives who
Speaker 2: they love, who they know, is struggling, or they can
Speaker 2: see that alcohol is their relationship with alcohol has become
Speaker 2: unhealthy or has been for a while. What can you
Speaker 2: do and should you do anything?
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, it's a really important question and it's probably
Speaker 1: one of the most heartbreaking things that I see until
Speaker 1: with on a daily basis in communities or just witness
Speaker 1: and it is our most frequently asked question. The answer is,
Speaker 1: you definitely need to, above all else, equip yourself with knowledge,
Speaker 1: information tools, and an education and awareness. If you are
Speaker 1: someone who cares about a human struggling, whether it's just
Speaker 1: with a bit of red flag drinking or end stage addiction,
Speaker 1: like jump on our website for starters and have a
Speaker 1: look at the family and friends section or just google
Speaker 1: what do I do if someone I love is you know,
Speaker 1: red flag or problematic drinking? Because oftentimes, with the very
Speaker 1: best of intentions, we do all the wrong things right,
Speaker 1: my husband did the things that are common mistakes, covering
Speaker 1: for me, lying for me, even sometimes enabling me unwittingly,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of contention around that topic of
Speaker 1: enabling even so we don't have enough time to even
Speaker 1: cover that. But please absolutely see help and support. And
Speaker 1: in the same way someone with the issue around drinking
Speaker 1: seeks peer support. Family members need their own peer support too,
Speaker 1: because for every person impacted by addiction, the seven closest
Speaker 1: people to them are equally impacted. Another really really awful statistic.
Speaker 1: So you know, jump on our website, have a look
Speaker 1: at the resources an info because it is really really
Speaker 1: fragile territory and it's very very tricky. But there are
Speaker 1: certain things that are better to say than others. There
Speaker 1: are certain things that are better to do than others.
Speaker 1: And I remember when it was May. I'll give you
Speaker 1: an example. Someone very close to me came to me
Speaker 1: one day in the morning very intelligently, because usually after
Speaker 1: five o'clock it was anyone's guess what state I would be.
Speaker 1: And I was an after five blackout drinker. That was
Speaker 1: what I did. I was a workaholic by day, alcoholic
Speaker 1: after five anyway, And she came to me one morning
Speaker 1: and she said, Chen, we know that you're not well,
Speaker 1: we know that you're struggling. We love you very very much,
Speaker 1: but just to be clear, our family can't come and
Speaker 1: have dinner and do anything with you of an evening
Speaker 1: anymore because it's really upsetting and it's too difficult. Yep,
Speaker 1: I know it makes you want to cry. It's too
Speaker 1: hard for us to see you in this much pain
Speaker 1: and torment, and we know that must have.
Speaker 2: Been hard for them to say that to you, I mean,
Speaker 2: unbelievably hard for you to hear. But also that would
Speaker 2: take a lot.
Speaker 1: Of it was really courageous, And what I will never
Speaker 1: forget is the fact that they said, we know you're sick,
Speaker 1: we know you're struggling, we know you can't help this,
Speaker 1: and that is the truth. Really, at end stage addiction,
Speaker 1: you actually can't even you can't even help what you're doing.
Speaker 1: It's dreadful. It's a horrific, horrific thing. But the compassion
Speaker 1: in the delivery took the worst of this sting out
Speaker 1: of it. And when she'd left, it was one of
Speaker 1: the reasons, among a handful of other reasons, that I
Speaker 1: finally went shit, I'm in really big trouble here. If
Speaker 1: people are not game to bring children to my home
Speaker 1: after five o'clock, that's probably one of the most horrifying,
Speaker 1: horrifying things imaginable for me to hear. And then I
Speaker 1: heard some gossip.
Speaker 2: Oh it makes me want to cry for you, because
Speaker 2: just because I also think that, I mean, it's not
Speaker 2: like you wouldn't have already been wallowing in the shame
Speaker 2: of it, and then that would be and I'm sure
Speaker 2: as your friend would have been like, I don't want
Speaker 2: to add to this, you know, but at the same time, anyway, sorry,
Speaker 2: I'm interrupted.
Speaker 1: No, no, not at all. And look, it broke my
Speaker 1: heart because I was always actually super careful around children.
Speaker 1: Weirdly enough, that was my one the one place that
Speaker 1: I was really good was if kids were involved. I
Speaker 1: never allowed myself to be crazy shant. But anyway, it
Speaker 1: was it was a fair call and it was a
Speaker 1: fair point. And then I heard someone gossiping about me,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, at my own house, with my
Speaker 1: own because they thought I was asleep, And so these
Speaker 1: things just kept happening and adding up and it was
Speaker 1: no longer I mean, plus the fact that I was
Speaker 1: in emergency every bloody five minutes, I mean, I was
Speaker 1: just headed for death. That's not even a question mark.
Speaker 1: So anyway, back to your question, Holly, Oh, it's really
Speaker 1: tricky territory. And I just so strongly advise people, if
Speaker 1: you are fortunate enough to live in a city where
Speaker 1: there are l and non face to face support meetings,
Speaker 1: just go, go and sit and learn from people with
Speaker 1: experience and lived experience. Nothing will be more powerful for
Speaker 1: you to find your way through. Just go and give
Speaker 1: it a crack. Jump on an online group, get help, learn,
Speaker 1: equip yourself. And whilst compassion is necessary and while the
Speaker 1: people you love in addiction are not bad people, they
Speaker 1: are very sick and you actually have to learn to
Speaker 1: protect yourself and put some very serious boundaries in places
Speaker 1: that it's just a sad fact.
Speaker 2: Did your relationship with that loved one survive? Yeah, the
Speaker 2: one who was brave enough to say that to you?
Speaker 1: And oh my god, I'm going to cry telling you this.
Speaker 1: Oh it always gets me. It's a really beautiful story.
Speaker 1: It was actually my sister in law and two years
Speaker 1: later she made me the godmom of her little boy.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I know, sorry, I wasn't even going to
Speaker 1: drop that in there, but it always makes me cry.
Speaker 1: And so I think that that is a really gorgeous
Speaker 1: story of such hope and restoration that can happen because
Speaker 1: I thought that relationship was done. I thought it was
Speaker 1: never going to be repairable. And sorry, and that's you know,
Speaker 1: that's here's the beautiful take home lesson for people holy
Speaker 1: like you know you might think, and I guess this
Speaker 1: is definitely aimed more so at people who resonate with
Speaker 1: me where it's just it seems as so there's no hope,
Speaker 1: there's no redemption, there's no alternative. There is there is.
Speaker 1: And you know the other thing my husband said to
Speaker 1: me when I begged him to leave this town, he said, sweetheart,
Speaker 1: you'll see that in time when people observe who you
Speaker 1: become and who you are and who I see, the
Speaker 1: girl I love is who they're going to start seeing.
Speaker 1: And you just have to hang in there. And he said,
Speaker 1: once people discover who the shan is that we know,
Speaker 1: those of you closest to you know, watch what will happen.
Speaker 1: And you know something, Holly, I've had that redemption and
Speaker 1: I've had that restoration, and I mean, gosh, imagine imagine
Speaker 1: being an Australian of the Year recipient and going back
Speaker 1: into your town with that. I mean, it's unimaginable really
Speaker 1: to me that that even happened. And again, that's not
Speaker 1: why I do what I do. It's not why I
Speaker 1: did what I did, but I guess I do always
Speaker 1: hope that it's a story that we will encourage others
Speaker 1: to know.
Speaker 2: Sorry, thank you for telling the story. Thank you for
Speaker 2: doing what you do. With sober in the country, with
Speaker 2: the peer support group. I mean, it's just it's amazing
Speaker 2: because I know that there will be so many women
Speaker 2: listening to this who they'll either be thinking about themselves,
Speaker 2: or they'll be thinking about their partner, or they'll be
Speaker 2: thinking about their friends. And it's just so helpful. And
Speaker 2: thank you so much for sharing. Obviously, Shanna, we will
Speaker 2: put in our show notes for this episode all of
Speaker 2: the links to all of your resources, and so if
Speaker 2: it has raised issues for people, they can go there.
Speaker 2: There's also a lot of resources on there for people
Speaker 2: who aren't in the country. Absolutely, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for this conversation.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, Holleen. I just really appreciate
Speaker 1: the opportunity and I wish I could give you a
Speaker 1: little cuddle.
Speaker 2: When we finished that conversation, everyone in the studio was
Speaker 2: in tea. And if you're ending this the same way,
Speaker 2: maybe because it struck a chord with you about your drinking,
Speaker 2: or about someone in your life shrinking, or someone who
Speaker 2: used to be in your live strinking. I want you
Speaker 2: to know that, friend, you're not alone. As Shanner so
Speaker 2: eloquently puts it, you're up against the world in some ways,
Speaker 2: and you're past and everything you've ever been told about
Speaker 2: having a good time. You're not broken, and you are
Speaker 2: not weak. You're going to find links in our show
Speaker 2: notes to organizations that can help you, including Shannon's of course.
Speaker 2: And next week we're having a conversation that's for you
Speaker 2: if you're one of the very many midlife women who
Speaker 2: are just tired all the time. It's about burnout, and
Speaker 2: it's with the important and beautiful writer Catherine May. I
Speaker 2: cannot wait for you to hear that. I was dying
Speaker 2: to talk to Katherine. If you've ever heard of the
Speaker 2: book Wintering, lots of people have heard of it. She
Speaker 2: wrote it. It's amazing. Anyway, you'll hear me gosh about
Speaker 2: that next week. I want to thank my excellent producer,
Speaker 2: to Elsabezaz for making these shows with me. I want
Speaker 2: to thank you for listening to them. If you love
Speaker 2: mid share it with someone who needs to hear it.
Speaker 2: We'll see you next week.